This is the second half of the comments from the past 3 weeks.

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In this issue:

Stuff for Sale List
Shot group statistics
Winchester 52E
Re: Winchester 52E
Re: Winchester 52E
ISSF Rifle Rules changes (2005)
Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Re: Biathlon observations
Third-party ALU stocks
Re: Third-party ALU stocks
Pistol Handicap system
Re: Pistol Handicap system
Re: Pistol Handicap system
Re: Pistol Handicap system

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Stuff for Sale Fans:
The new list is out and available on the web site:
http://members.aol.com/washsmallbore, then click on Stuff for Sale.

Tons of air rifles on there, mostly the logical consequence of folks
stampeding to compressed air guns (myself included). Prices are excellent
for all types (pneumatic, CO2 and those few compressed air guns on the
list). Downside: won't be long before I have to declare a moratorium on
listing more pneumatics on the list....am not trying to conduct a nationwide
inventory of every unused pneumatic air rifle out there in Shooterland.

You don't need reminders like this one that a new list has been published.
A new one generally works its way onto that web site about every 3 weeks, as
the contents fluctuate.

Happy Haggling!
John Crossman

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Whoever may be interested: I've extended some earlier work in
the area of shot group statistics
This time, it's about estimating a shot group's standard deviation
from the shot group diameter.
And second, about what's the best way to use your ammo when
testing a lot and you want to determine the quality. Suppose you
want to spent 10 shots, what's the best way: 1 group of 10 shots
or 5 groups of 2 shots?
It turns out that all the shots in 1 group yields the best estimation.
So much the better: no extra time to spend in changing more
targets and measuring more diameters..
If you want to read more details, here they are:
http://home-2.worldonline.nl/~jhogema/ballist.htm
Jeroen Hogema

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I am considering upgrading my rifle at the end of this season from a
Marlin 2000L to a Winchester 52E. Does anybody have any experience
with this rifle? Is it a good second step rifle before I drop the
big bucks for an Anschutz? Opinions are welcome.

A friend of mine, who is acting
as my coach, wants to sell me his for $1200. It is
supposedly all "tricked out", we'll see. I'm going to
try it next Friday (3/1/02).
Jim

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Considering the 52E hasn't been made in 20 years they are hard to find. They
do show up in the $800+ range every so often but most guys buy it for the
action to have an all out match rifle built. My buddy just had a 52C built
because he couldn't find an E, final price $2000+. If you know of an E that
is in great shape, buy it. In unaltered condition these are fast becoming
collectors items. Hope this helps. -Chris Dunphy

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I acquired a 52C while I was in high school and put it on an Anshutz type
free rifle stock with the Anshutz rail and butt plate ... had a Canjar
trigger and two step front sight base installed ... good, solid rifle. I
still have it and shoot it on occasion ... I have a lot of sentiment over
that rifle ... served me well. I don't know what the current market prices
are but, I think I might try and spring for a used Anshutz ... if it is big
difference in price, the 52 will do you well. R/Lee

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ISSF announced when they put out the new rule book last year that there
would be changes in the clothing in 2005. Not only are the thicknesses
decreasing but the waistband for the pants is being decreased. I suspect
that the numbers we have seen so far won't be the exact numbers in 2005
because the National Governing Bodies will all have put their two cents
worth in by then but "something" is going to change. They are also working
on changing the Final match. Can't tell you anything on that that would
make any sense, so far just different scenarios. USA Shooting has come out
STRONGLY that no changes should be made mid-quad like the last time.

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Upon review of the Biathlon competition during the Olympics the following
observations were made:
The rifle shooters used the standing and prone position during the
competition. Not one of the shooting athletes used a leather shooting
jacket, trousers, or shooting shoes or boots...
Some time ago, I made the comment that the shooting jackets, trousers and
shoes were not in fact required to achieve high precision scores during
competition. What a commotion this caused. The use of such equipment is so
ingrained in the young shooter that they do not realize the jacket is
actually harming the shooting position by preventing the athlete from
achieving a true and precision position. And, the trousers...How many
coaches tell their charges to unzip the trousers so they will fit better
while in position....? The jacket is also unbuttoned to allow the shooting
athlete to construct the kneeling and prone positions.
During the Olympic competition the Biathlon athlete took 2 to 3 seconds for
the first round fired and 2 or less seconds for each shot thereafter. While
watching the Norwegians front sights, I noted the entry of the front sight,
I noted the entry into the QZ~ by the athlete just as the athlete fired the
rifle. It happen five times. The impact of the bullets was in the right
center of the bull except for the last shot which was at the four o'clock
position in the black. This was find shooting by the Norwegian athlete.
But again no jacket, trousers or shooting boots or shoes...
Does this tell us something...?
Chet Skinner, Coach

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I think we are comparing apples and oranges here.
The target sizes for biathlon are 11.5cm standing and 45cm prone.
In an ISSF final a deviation of a few millimetres can make all the
difference.
Nevertheless I enjoyed the Biathlon coverage on TV and the skill involved
and if I was younger and could Ski I would be tempted to take it up.

Gerald Corfield

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Biathlon is a timed sport, you could miss every shot, and still win, if you ski fast enough.
In my opinion the comparison is interesting from an academic viewpoint, but has little practical transfer to competitive rifle shooting. If people could shoot Olympic caliber scores in a T-shirt and shower shoes, they would be doing it.
Leo Cebula

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Chet wrote: "Some time ago, I made the comment that the shooting jackets,
trousers and shoes were not in fact required to achieve high precision
scores during competition."
Apparently this caused quite a stir and significant disagreement. The
initial responses to his latest post echo that sentiment.
Guess what?
He's right!
Go back and read his words carefully.
We regularly have elite athletes train without the stiff clothing. Why?
Simple: "Inner Position".
If one uses the clothing as a "crutch" to prop up or stabilize an otherwise
poorly constructed position... their performance - and learning - is held
back. If one understands and uses the concepts of inner position in proper
harmony with the physiology of the human body, then two things are true:
1) They will be capable of excellent performances without the stiff
clothes, and
2) Using the stiff clothes (only if properly fit and adjusted) they will
gain slight addiitonal benefit - primarily in having "cues" when something
is slightly different.
Chet also wrote: "The use of such equipment is so ingrained in the young
shooter that they do not realize the jacket is actually harming the
shooting position by preventing the athlete from achieving a true and
precision position."
Also correct. Sadly, their coaches often do not relaize this either.
Merely adding the clothes, and thus "gaining" some *apparent* stability,
will hold the athlete's development back becuase they will not build the
requisite skills.
Similarly,
I suppose that if Chet (or anyone else for that matter) wrote that they
could also achieve high scores while closing their eyes at the last minute
the howls would be even louder. However, it's no different than with the
clothes.
In working with a 17 year old girl (intermediate to advanced level shooter
with 2 years of experience - with excelllent kinesthetic skills), I walked
her through an exercise (with 10m air rifle, offhand) that culminated in
her closing her eyes instead of breaking the shot, sensing her movement and
balance, and then - with eyes still closed - releasing the shot once she
sensed another steady state. Her heart was racing for fear of hitting the
wall! Size of the group? All 10 shots scored deep 9 or 10... a really nice,
small group. (If it could have been scored, the group would likely have
been a 97 or 98.) I know that, a year later and with her now greater
understanding and skills, she would do even better with this drill today.
I am helping another shooter (17 year old girl, elite level, several years
of experience) build refined skills in various parts of her game. One of
the drills involves shooting groups on sheets of black construction paper
with her eyes closed. (50ft smallbore, offhand)
Another variation has her close her eyes *before* she even picks the gun up
from the shooting stand. (When I first mentioned this one to her in
mid-2000, she gave me a funny look, and then discovered that she couldn't
even come close to the target. Now she's "on"!) Of course, this is on a
range with a full backstop and with a coach closely watching to stop her in
case of any danger or significant error.
Yes, she has groups - not randomly placed shots - in both drills.
As Wanda Jewell says, this sport is about feel.
Most people don't get this.
In general, we depend too heavily on our equipment, our heavy shooting
clothes, our eyes, and our conscious mind. We don't build skills, we just
shoot over and over and over and over and over and over - reinforcing the
same bad techniques. That's why so few do really well when the chips are
down - or when the medals are on the line. The few that excel are taking a
different path.
Chet also mentioned the speed with which the biathletes delivered their
shots. They only took about 2 seconds once they arrived on target...
sometimes a bit more or less. This is the best technique for them... and
surprise... the best technique for the ISSF games as well. Most just don't
trust themselves and won't allow it.
Chet also mentioned certain athletes delivering their shot at almost the
instant that the gun became still in the hold... perfect technique. This
often doesn't happen (or isn't even believed to be correct) because of the
same trust issues and because of seriously flawed technique. It works
beautifully, however. I've seen it with some of the athletes I help and
even in my own shooting. The technique and mental approach must be such
that they facilitate the use of these principles.
Most people don't get this either. It doesn't change the fact that it is true.
Please don't tell me about this athlete or that who won a big event or a
medal in the Olympics and how they used a radically different technique.
I'm talking about the high percentage techniques... not the ones that
require a decade or more of hard work to "perfect". (One particular
Olympian and I joke about our different views on this... he understands and
agrees with my position and I agree with his method as a possible way to go
- but for certain athletes only and only wheen there are many years to work
on it.) A different path would have allowed them to perform even better -
sooner and with less work.
Even Erich Buljung talks about some Olympians who think they have "arrived"
and won't change anything about their game... even though it screams for
correction and improvement.
Erich also talks about people who give "lip service" to the correct
techniques. They nod their head and claim that they really do understand
what it takes... and then go back to the firing line and repeat the same
old tired habits.
All of the above applies to pistol as well.
Which brings us back to the original post. One may not have the warmest
feelings toward the author of the original post, nor agree with some of his
ideas. However, get past that and really read what he said. While others
might say it differently, and some exactly the same way... the fact remains
that he is correct on this one!
"Feel Center!"
-JP O'Conner

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OK then, how can I use this information in my personal training. Or
maybe even more specifically how can I train to get the shot off
quickly? I am finding now that I can shoot a 10 on demand but it
frequently takes too long. That is, if I pick up the rifle and wait for
it to go off (that's the best way I can explain it) it will be a 10.
Should the shot be taking too long I will set the rifle down, and then
start the shot sequence again. Over the course of the match the average
shot time is too long and I would never complete the 60 shots in the
required time so I have to rush some shots and this costs me points.
So, I would be interested in some training method (that I can
understand) which will assist me in getting the shot off when the rifle
first becomes steady. I do notice that the rifle steadies on the bull
very quickly but for whatever reason the shot seldom seems to go away at
that time unless I consciously squeeze the trigger, and then the results
are not always desirable ;-).
In the text below you talk about training without all the gear. Is this
a generally accepted thing to do? I have inquired about this of people
before and was told that I should train as I shoot, that is all the
gear, all the time. I had been thinking that if I trained at home
without all the gear it would force me to have a good position in order
to be able to hold the 10 ring and that could only get better when I add
all the gear. Now, if training without the gear is a good thing to help
improve one's position then what percentage of training should be with
and what without?
Lastly, if anyone on the list is interested I've put the results of the
Crosman Airgun Grand Prix on the Canadian Shooting Sports Association
site.
http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/2002Results/crosmansairgungrandprix.html
And some pictures from the competition here:
http://www.photoaccess.com/share/guest.jsp?ID=A60DD923099&cb=PA
I look forward to your thoughts.
Kind regards,
Mike Hockings (Canada!)

[Editor - That was a response written by an acquaintance of mine, JP O'Conner, since
he said it much better than me. This response is solely my opinion and not his.

Your hold should improve if you practice without all the gear as discussed
below. You also may not be giving your hold credit. Many people have 10
ring holds but don't think they do so they wait and wait until the shot is
"perfect". Your first hold is usually your best (though 2 of my kids insist
their second is) so you need to be ready to take it when it occurs. Perhaps
you just are not expecting it to happen so quickly, but it SHOULD happen
that quickly. The fact that your unconscious did not activate the trigger
then should tell you something about your technique. Trust your training
and your hold.

Something you may try is putting your self under limits. Once you know your
hold is good (eg, using a Scatt/Rika or the exercises JP suggested), let
the shot fire itself within 4 seconds no matter what to get the timing
element of it. It should be a surprise to you that the shot went off.

Yes, I believe training without gear should be an accepted thing to do. As
to what percentage should be like this, I don't believe there is a number
(eg, 50%) that would work for most people. I could make the argument that a
newer shooter should do it more because they have a longer road to finding
their inner position and ingraining the kinesthetics. On the other hand, I
could argue a world-class shooter should do it a lot as well. They can only
gain more knowledge of their inner position and the "feel" of how it SHOULD
be. How can he gain as much by shooting with full gear? So really I think
it is up to the individual shooter. I believe you will do it more in the
beginning because it will be quite difficult to hold still. As you
progress, you won't need it as much and may get down to as little as 10-20%
of the shooting time available - a maintenance level if you will.

So you'll probably ask if I do this. Yes and no. I train without my pants
and boots, but because of my build I will normally wear my jacket (with
just a couple buttons fastened). I have short arms and have to hold my arm
in place to keep it from sliding across my chest if not wearing the jacket
(ie, no rubber pads) or bend back further to rest it in the pocket above my
hipbone. So the jacket seems a necessity to a degree and I have found that
with some of my smaller shooters as well. That is why I only button a
couple buttons so I'm not getting as much support.

BTW, the ISSF plans to make rule changes in 2005 that reduce the benefits
of the clothing, so you may as well be getting prepared for that ahead of
time, right?]

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> Chet wrote: "Some time ago, I made the comment that the shooting jackets,
> trousers and shoes were not in fact required to achieve high precision
> scores during competition."
>
> Apparently this caused quite a stir and significant disagreement. The
> initial responses to his latest post echo that sentiment.
> Guess what?
> He's right!

Guess what?
He's wrong! Let me give you a direct analogy.
Skiers frequently train with their boots 'undone' ... without the support
from the boots the athlete has to maintain perfect balance and control
without the aid of the boot ... the result is a better 'position' and a
better skier .. no question.
Same with shooting ... I can see merit in training without the aids of jacket
etc ...
but ... ( theres always a but ...)
No skier would attempt a competition with his boots undone ... the experience
is useful for training, but yields poorer results in the extreme of
competition .. same with shooting .. you may well develop a better position
by doing some training without a jacket and trousers ... but to compete on
the edge you need all the help you can get ...

> Go back and read his words carefully.
> We regularly have elite athletes train without the stiff clothing. Why?
> Simple: "Inner Position".
> If one uses the clothing as a "crutch" to prop up or stabilize an otherwise
> poorly constructed position... their performance - and learning - is held
> back.

I'll give you that. BUT .. go back and read his words carefully .. Chet was
not suggesting that training without aids was useful .. but that shooting *in
competition* was done better without them! ...
Do you believe that? .. I don't.
-- 
Robin Szemeti

[Editor - I don't believe Chet was saying that, just that it was possible.]

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Does this exercise apply to prone shooting also? If it does should it be
carried out with a sling and glove, or without? I think my position would be
very different without a sling, especially the positioning of my left elbow
(rh shooter).
On a similar but different (yes I'm Irish , well N Ireland anyway) topic,
I've been training on a computer trainer for a few months now (again prone)
and find that my horizontal hold is much better than vertical, in fact the
standard deviation is approaching 6mm vertically when a value of 4mm or less
horizontally is about usual for me, Is there any obvious things I should
look at re this problem? Until I hooked up to a trainer I assumed it was
head position, now I'm not so sure and I don't think pulse should have that
dramatic an effect. The other thing I considered was that the machine was
including part of my breathing pattern in the calculation but if you look a
my live cards the dropped shots are 75+% lost up and down. Answers on a
post card to....
Should I just accept this movement and let my sub conscious line it up as
best it can?
PS I.m a fairly new member and have found the last few months conversation V
Interesting, lots for me to think about. Thanks to everybody for that.
Rob

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Do jacket, trousers, and shooting shoes to improve your
performance? Sure, they do, I would say (even though I
acknowledge the use of training with less support, and the value of
"Inner Position")
And to get beyond personal opinions & beliefs, let me throw in
some scientific work by Aalto et al. (1990).
METHOD -
(1) Subjects: Finnish national team shooters (n=10: 8 x rifle, 2 x
pistol), and controls (n=27).
(2) Measured: postural stability, measured on a force plate (just
standing, not while shooting).
(3) Conditions. Eyes opend v.s. eyes closed (visual vs non-visual
condition). For the rifle shooters: With vs. without shooting jacket +
trousers + shoes.

RESULTS
(1) The mean sway velocity was lowest for the rifle shooters,
highest for the controls, and the pistol shooters came in between.
(This was without the shooting jacket etc. on!)
(2) With eyes closed, sway velocity increases, but differences
among groups stay as under (1)
(3) And there you are: with supportive clothes & shoes, the rifle
shooters had an even lower mean sway velocity than without.
(4) Competition clothing helped to reduce sway both in visual and
nonvisual condition.
(5) The difference between pistol and rifle shooters was significant
in both the visual and the nonvisual condition.
Jeroen Hogema

PS Result item (5) was not relevant for the present discussion, but
being a rifle shooter, I just liked it too much to leave it out... :-)

Aalto, H., Pyykkö, I., Ilmarinen, R., Kähkönen, E., & Starck, J.
(1990). Postural stability in shooters. Journal of Oto-Rhino-
Laryngology and Its Related Specialities, 52, 232-238.

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Results #1 & 5 are very interesting. Makes you wonder if a pistol shooter
should practice with a smaller bull. Maybe then we would develop a better
"Inner Position". Of course, you do realize that if there is a fire at the
range, the pistol shooters will be out the door much faster. I say this
while shooting wearing a tee shirt, shorts and sandals, while swaying back
and forth. Good thing that pistol 10 ring is so BIG.

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Hi Jeroen,
Like your message as transmitted. This research was committed in the conscious mental mode but you failed to make the same test using the unconscious mental mode.
You would have found the results very different.
Chet Skinner, Coach

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> Results #1 & 5 are very interesting. Makes you wonder if a pistol shooter
> should practice with a smaller bull. Maybe then we would develop a better
> "Inner Position".
Empirically, yes pistol shooters should. Shooters who train in Free
Pistol have much smaller groups and much higher average slow-fire
scores on Conventional BE targets. And, its not that the Free Pistol
shooters are all "better" shooters or "more technical" shooters than
the Conventional BE crowd.
The Ohio State Rifle Team even has a custom practice target where
you have the regulation black but only the inner dot and 10 & 9 rings.
Either you shoot a center, a ten, a nine or a zero. Results are
said to be the same as a smaller target.
Peter

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Hey all
This discussion on how to train is very interesting. First off, I think that
shooting, standing, without boots and/or pants increases your balance
immensely. However, i doubt that doing the same thing would help kneeling or
prone (but i have not tried it yet). My opinion is be open to everything and
try it once because it just might work for you. I have been reading some
training material published by Dick Boschman and that you must check your
NPA every shot. I started doing this and my scores climbed a few points.
Today, in a High school match my heart was racing from an outstanding prone
100-10x. I could not totally settle down like usual, but I checked my NPA
every shot and ended up with a respectable score.
The phrase "whatever works" comes to mind when talking about shooting.
-Ross

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Hi All, I have to agree with Chet on this one. All the fancy equipment
may get you a few extra points but if you don't have the basics down
pat, nothing will help you. By basics I mean, trigger control,
breathing control and a solid position. Also a mental attitude is a
must. You will gain a whole lot more if you have full confidence in
your basics. If you believe that you have a solid position then you
won't be afraid to take your shot. Also you must have the presence of
mind to know when you are out of position. It just won't feel right
and then you have to examine everything before taking the shot. With
constant awareness of the basics the rifle will become an extension of
your body and you take the shot with total confidence. 3P shooting is
a very mental sport.
Dan

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Do you know any manufacturers of Aluminium stocks for 0.22 rifle without
Feiwerkbau, Anschutz, Walther and Unique?
 
Best Regards
Miguel Neiva
http://planeta.clix.pt/ctdc

[Editor - S&N out of the UK, which you can get through www.centershot.com
in the US, and GE600 from France at http://www.ge600.fr.st are the 2 I know of.]

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I am the US Importer for Stopper stocks. Stopper stocks are made in
Germany and currently are available for Anschutz 14-1900, and 2000 series,
as well as Feinwerkbau and Diana rifles. They are available in a variety
of colors.
They can be seen at www.Stopper.de
Ed Knutson

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Just wondering if you can help me.
I am in need of a handicap system for scoring pistol matches and have been refered to an old booklet that was based on the "Drop Point System". What I need if it is possible is what the formual is for working the handicap out. If you can help me out it would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Matthew Bennet

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You apparently want the handicap book that is available from NRA. The book
contains the formula. Unfortunately, the formula involves a generating table
that is about half a page of numbers, also listed in the book. The
generating table was written guess and guess again by hand, it is not itself
generated from a simple formula, although you could easily write a formula
that does as well or better but would not be the same. From the formula and
generating table, the large table of numbers was generated. I have not yet
had time to make this system into a spreadsheet.
The book is uneven in some places due to the hand written table, but does a
usably good job in handicapping scores. It can be used for any scores that
can easily be scaled to 300 points, such as a 600 pistol match but also any
other sport in which competitors achieve positive points against an absolute
scale.
- Benjamin McLeod

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Hi,
make sure it is easy to get better handicap and worse to go up.
Say,
even or within 3 pts gives the same handicap and when someone shoots several points better than usual, the handicap goes down every time.If you use a decimal system, it should only be possible to go"down" 0,1 each time.Starting point should be last years' best result in a given programme.With me in airgun, 600pts would be scratch and if I had 590pts as last year's best my starting handicap should be 10.Each time I shoot less points than 587 I should go down 0,1.
The opposite, shooting 591 I should go down 0,3 or more.
See? Many ways of competitions could be done by this.
Shooting against each other, Your best 520pts with handicap 80 and mine of 10.You shoot 521 and I shoot 590 and You win a car!!!!
Could be done You know!
Each and every training session would be marked regardless of numbers shot for the evening, the only thing needed is a guy signing Your card.
I'm a scratch shooter would be the target for everybody!
Øyvind
(with handicap of 15,8 in golf and less in shooting)

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> make sure it is easy to get better handicap and worse to go up.

perhaps the most commonly used system for calculting an average is 'best 5 of
the last 6 (scored) cards' ... if you are shooting constant 98's then you
just need to shoot another ... if your scores are prone to going up and down
then it gives you a bit of something to aim for, not too hard to achieve
though.
-- 
Robin Szemeti

********************************************************************
End of UIT Mailing List #18

Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm