Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: Re: Bedding Re: Bedding Re: Bedding Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Tom Lowe (Wolf Creek) PTOs back on again Training with a scope Competing with a scope LH 2002CA for sale ******************************************************************** From the specifications of targets, in pistol we find a variation of .5mm of variation allowed to make a ten. I am sure the stock will move that amount plus more if the athlete is a real muscled person. Consciously we note minor movements but when the movement is unconscious we fail to note the changes. Of course any movement of stock bending is not detected when it is accomplished during the unconscious mode. As for bedding in wood, Robin is correct for glass/epoxy, the bedding is made to mate the glass/epoxy to the glass/epoxy when assembling the rifle. This is done by removing wood around the seating areas and the bolt holes in the wood. Then glassing and epoxy the bolt holes and assemble the rifle stock together (lightly) until the glass/epoxy mixture set up (overnight). When set up then the final glass bedding of the receiver group may be accomplished. During the final stage the fit is firmly set until dry. All that remains is the cleaning up and trimming of the rough places. Is alum post required....NO A better mounting is achieved by glass epoxy mating with Glass/epoxy. This prevents or negates any tempture changes in material. One factor though in all bedding situations is DO NOT PLACE ANY OIL on the glass as it will destroy the glass/epoxy bedding job. Such bedding was accomplished for 30:06 and 308 Rifles and work very well with government wood. Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** On Wednesday 23 January 2002 14:38, Chet Skinner wrote: > From the specifications of targets, in pistol we find a variation of .5mm > of variation allowed to make a ten. I am sure the stock will move that > amount plus more if the athlete is a real muscled person. and ? .. does this matter ? .. nope .. so long as it moves the same each time is all that matters. Of course if you can apply the same hold and have it move within +- 10% each time then its better it only moves .5mm than 10mm each time .. but thats not a factor of the stock bending, its a factor of the whole rifle moving against your shoulder and how that reacts. > Consciously we > note minor movements but when the movement is unconscious we fail to note > the changes. Of course any movement of stock bending is not detected when > it is accomplished during the unconscious mode. the bullet doesn't know whether you noticed the movement or not ... whats your point here? are you saying that the amount of movement during recoil is different when in 'unconcious mode' ?? > Is alum post required....NO A better mounting is achieved by glass epoxy > mating with Glass/epoxy. This prevents or negates any tempture changes in > material. where does glass/epoxy mate with glass/epoxy ?? its the steel of the reciever pulled down into the bedding by bolts passing through the stock. To achieve the same results day in, day out the tension exerted by the bolts pulling the receiver into the bedding must be the same every day. If the bolts are going through an inch of wood or an inch of aluminium then that does make a difference. ... the wood is affected greatly by humidity, the aluminium is not ... simple as that. Pillar bedding is a well known techinique and was quite popular before aluminium stocks came along .. it doesn;t make a big difference, but it can make *enough* difference if you shoot in a changeable climate. -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** HELLO Joe, Ok now. The bedding work, I accomplished in the 1970's. We messed with post but in the end the receiver group was mounted on Glass and epoxy directly. The stock in such situations is not of interest until it is needed to hold the glass and receiver group. By this I mean that you make a glass bed and extend the glass through the stock until you have it fill the holes through the stock. By placing a small washer on the bottom of the bolt then you in reality will mount the bolt and bedding together so you are bolting directly to the glass and not the stock... As the receiver is bolted directly to the glass through the stock, the stock has little effect upon the rifle because of temp or moisture changes. The stock in such cases is of importance only in recoil movement and absorber effects. The rifle receiver is bedded in glass and mounted through the stock in glass and the glass is butted against the wood so as to receive recoil forces only. In such cases, the glass remains in the stock permanently and is only removed to replace the bedding or to redue the bedding job completely. The two items that will ruin a glass bedding job is grease and oil. As post, they can only be of use to pass the bolt through a tunnel if you will. Chet Skinner, Coach ----- Original Message ----- From: Joeph Sundra To: UIT_COACHING@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 4:37 PM Hi Chet , thanks for the emails . Sorry to hear you were in hospital. I trust you are all fixed up . Interesting on the stock information. Years ago a gunsmith that I was friendly with modified a Mk3 SMLE by making a metal frame to hold the rifle action and made wood panels for where the stock area. He made it for a freind of his who lived in Canada and needed a mnore accurate SMLE if such a thing is possible. from what I found out later it worked prtetty well. Joe Sundra ******************************************************************** In reading Chet's latest post about being a physical or mental shooter, which grew out of the iron sight/scope thread, I finally had an "Ah Hah" with his explanation. Granted the jargon/lingo has made it next to impoosible for me to understand for a long time, but what I now see being described is a mediative state during a match or practice. Chet, when I frame what you say that way, I understand and completely agree with your point. Sure as hell can't do it, but I know you're right. The quest takes a new turn. Best, Brian McNeill ******************************************************************** Hi Brian, Thank you very much. The mental practice and analysis is in fact a meditative state but the mental check list and firing technique is accomplished in the unconscious state. This is the big difference. Every one is taught to operate in the conscious mode as the AMU members. They can do well but not to the level of perfection available though the mental technique of the unconscious mental entity. In the conscious or physical mode we must train live fire repetitively with the same errors being generated and new ones generated to replace the one we manage to remove from our technique. But, over all it is the same mediocre methodology. We never improve much as it is a very randomized method of shooting. The athlete can accomplish 5 minutes of mental practice and achieve the same level of technique perfection plus removing the randomness of the technical error as any physical athlete does in 5 hours of physical exercise. Therefore, those whose shooting technique is buried in the conscious method will always work in a randomness that will only result in a level of mediocre results. This includes the world class athlete we now have. The world class wins one here or there and over all they know why the cannot repeat their completion performance because they have not yet perfected their shooting technique but they are hard put to admit this simple fact. So the randomness continues. When mental practice and analysis is accomplished in the unconscious mental level fast and non-random results is achieved. Good shooting to all... Chet Skinner, Coach Entity International http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UIT_COACHING ******************************************************************** Okay, here is the good news! As of today, the monthly PTO's are back at Tom Lowe Shooting grounds. This does not mean the range is once again open to the public, but all previous scheduled events will be run until August. Duane Tallman is going to handle range bookings and supplies for USA Shooting. The cost of supplies has caused us to have to raise the entry fees for PTO's, to $15.00 for junior shooters, and $20.00 for adults, with reentry $10.00. The Wolf Creek Young Shooters Assn., along as many volunteers we can get, will be running the monthly PTO's. If you are in the Atlanta area and can help out once in awhile, please let me know and I will put you on my volunteer list. You do not need a lot of match experience, because we have a ton of jobs for everyone. PTO's will be on Saturday and Sunday but you don't have to work both days. I will be the match director and contact for PTO's and most matches. The match entries will have to be done by me at my home since the range will not be open except on match days. You can e-mail me, wgwbhw420@worldnet.att.net or phone me at 770 487-4716, or FAX me 770 632-0472. I will always try to get right back to you. I know this is not the ideal way to run the range, but it's much better than having it closed. I am hoping that by August a more permanent arrangement will be worked out. Bill Wayda ******************************************************************** Training with a Scope: A key skill in rifle shooting is to have a smooth trigger release that is in synch with the hold and the sight picture. We all know that this is supposed to be a subconscious thing -- the body perceives a steady hold, the eyes see the hold centered on the target, and the finger pulls the trigger, all at the same instant. The body subconsciously responds to cues from the eyes. When the eyes "see" an unsteady hold, the body tries to steady itself. When the eyes "see" the sights off-center, the body moves to center the sights on the target. When shooting with a scope, the eyes see different images than when shooting with iron sights. Shooters who wish to compete with both kinds of sights need to have two sets of procedures trained into their subconscious. Specifically, when shooting with a scope, the eyes see motion that they do not see when looking through iron sights. Shooters who compete with scope learn to respond to a "rhythmic and centered" hold, where the crosshairs move across or around the center of the target in a smooth and regular pattern, and learn to release the trigger at the same point in the motion each time. Iron sight shooters don't see that amount of detail in their motion, they just respond to aligned sights around a centered bull's-eye. Iron sight shooters who shoot with a scope for the first time (and for a while thereafter) find that their bodies subconsciously respond to the newly-perceived motion with fine adjustments that they don't have when they go back to iron sights. It takes a number of training sessions with the scope before they get comfortable with the motion that they have had all along but were never able to see. In short, they spend a lot of valuable training time teaching their subconscious that, even though the cross hairs all moving from one side of the nine ring to the other, they can still shoot a ten every time if they will just relax, release, and follow-through. It's what they were doing with iron sights all along, but never knew it. Because of this, shooters who compete primarily with iron sights need to be careful when using a scope as a poor-man's Noptel. The scope should be used ONLY for analyzing their hold. It should not be used when dry- or live-firing. To do so results in wasted training time. If their intent is to learn more about their hold, then they need to spend their time watching their hold and letting their subconscious learn to associate each micro-movement of the body with the movement it causes on the target. This means hours and hours of holding and watching. As soon as the shooter closes the bolt and starts pulling the trigger, the subconscious gets distracted and focuses on releasing the trigger when the hold is centered. At that point, the shooter starts learning how to shoot a high score in an any-sight match, and stops learning how to make their hold steadier. Doug Clark ******************************************************************** Competing with a Scope: There are three groups of competitors who benefit from using scopes in any-sight matches. The first are the shooters whose competition is centered on gallery leagues. Such leagues usually have minimal changeover times between positions and relays, and some even have reduced firing times (I know of one that has a 70-minute block time for firing a 3x20). Using a scope in such a league is a significant time savings. There is no change of front aperture and no need to set up and move a spotting scope. A scope relieves the shooter of the burdens of sight alignment, sight picture, and the intermittent blurry vision that comes with age. Scopes, in short, allow for higher scores than iron sights. If a shooter's goals are not centered on winning iron-sight or international-style matches, then the shooter should shoot with a scope all the time. The second group to benefit from a scope are prone shooters. Primarily-iron sight shooters will require additional training to teach their subconscious to respond to the differently-perceived hold they see through a scope, but this additional training is much less for prone than it is for a shooter who tries to shoot with a scope in kneeling or standing. International-style prone shooters can learn a great deal about mirage when they shoot with a scope. Because the shooter sees their shots on target with the rifle scope, the spotting scope can be effectively de-focused from the target and focused on the mirage, whereas an iron-sight shooter has to use the spotting scope for both purposes, and thus can't see the mirage quite as well. Also, because the rifle scope picks up a little bit of mirage itself, the shooter's subconscious learns to associate changes in the mirage with changes in point of impact. The next time that shooter shoots an iron-sight prone match and looks at the mirage through his spotting scope, his subconscious associates the mirage he sees with a point of impact on the target, and he instinctively and confidently makes sight adjustments. In some cases, especially in the 100-yard stages of conventional prone matches, shooters can actually see their shots get blown into the 9-ring by the wind. The shooter's subconscious will record the point of impact of that shot along with the conditions surrounding it. A shooter with a positive attitude (who is able to ignore the fact that he just dropped a valuable point) will remember those conditions in a future match and his subconscious will keep him from releasing the trigger the next time. Because of the added variables of sight alignment, sight picture, and blurry vision that come with iron sights, and because the point of impact of the shot is not known until the shooter looks through the spotting scope, it is much more difficult for the subconscious to learn to associate wind and mirage conditions with their effect on the shots when the shooter is using iron sights. The third group of shooters who benefit from shooting with a scope are anyone who shoots a 4-position match. Many of these are gallery shooters, who are discussed above. Many of the others are primarily international-style shooters who shoot one or two 4-position matches each year. If a shooter's emphasis is on international-style shooting, then they should not spend many hours training for the (dreaded) sitting position. Furthermore, 4-position has much shorter time limits and changeover times than international-style matches, which causes international-style shooters to feel rushed and frustrated. An international-style shooter thus has three options: skip all 4-position matches, learn to shoot and change your gear fast, or shoot 4-position with a scope and save time as discussed above. Shooters who compete with both iron sights and scopes must understand that the scope adds an additional training requirement. An iron-sight shooter must teach their subconscious a new set of visual cues when they start shooting with a scope. You cannot simply slap on a scope and expect to have equal or higher scores right away. Over time, if the shooter trains improperly with the scope, their iron-sight scores will drop. "Cheating" (pulling the trigger as the crosshairs move across the 10-ring) will probably not hurt the shooter's development if they only do it for 20 shots once a year when they shoot sitting in a 4-position sectional. But if they spend all winter doing it in a gallery league, their iron sight scores in the summer are guaranteed to be hurt. Shooters must look at their long-term goals and use scopes only to the extent that it supports theirstated goals. Doug Clark ******************************************************************** I'm selling my 2002CA Laminated LH rifle. I've been diagnosed with a neurological disorder that looks like it is going to put and end to my shooting. The rifle as I'm selling it has the Anschutz rear sight, not the top of the line sight with the cant adjustment but the one down from that. It has a Centra adj. rear aperature with indoor filters and a Centra front adjustable aperature. The rifle is in near mint condition although I have fired it fairly extensively. I have all the accessories including manual and wrenches including the little tube of lube. Additional non standard accessory includes a bi-pod. I'm asking $1,100.00 or best offer. Thanks Rick mmd@evansville.net ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #15 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm