Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: Buttplate Why I sold my 2002 Team interaction Re: Team interaction Burnout Re: Burnout Re: Burnout Wanted: shooting sports clipart "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Re: "Inner" vs. "physical" vision (or irons vs scope) Rifle coaching school Bedding Re: Bedding Re: Bedding Re: Bedding ******************************************************************** I just received my HPS/ System Gemini free rifle butt plate in the post. wow .. VERY nice work ... clever design .. nice machining I have yet to shoot with it but even with just a basic setup and a trial fitting it feels a much closer fit than the anschutz hook I had before. Their is no tendency to move down as I used to experience with the old hook, .. I'll report back after some shooting .. but so far it looks goooooood. [:)] -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** For all who inquire, I am switching to a Walther for many reasons. First, i must start with the Anz airgun buttplate. I consiter this a THE worst buttplate in the world, its not big enough for me, and the fixed bottom piece rides into my sholder. Next comes the cheek piece, I had one break on me and the adjustibility is hindered at the lowest position (where i need it). Also, there is that horribly placed wood forend, the screws dont seat properly, and I nearly striped them both. Also, the addition of weights in challenging to say the least in the Anz. and mine did not come with ANY (other than the barrel weights) Last, both the FWB and the walther have absorbers.... not that i need one but they seem to work. However, do not get me wrong, these are all personal dislikes and i do not beleive that Anz. is makeing a "bad" airgun, i just think the walther and FWB are better designed. Im glad to hear that the sights on the walther are good, if not i can send them back to walther. I'm sure i can adjust to the Walther, because i did not shoot the Anz that much due to my dislikes of it. But, after my more than poor proformance at the Jr. Olmypic tryouts, it looks like shooting will start to take priority...... wait... that comes after the school work, which monopolizes ALL of my time!! Really I am luck to get in one practice a week. who ever says that High school was easy, much less fun. I cant wait for COLLEGE!!!! -Ross Miller PS: sorry about the tangant at the end, but i really dislike high school and am looking foward to Coach Michael Ray, and Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech!! [Editor - Thanks for the plug, Ross. However, I think you will be sorely disappointed if you think Rose is going to be easier than high school (or most colleges for that matter). It can be more fun though! ] ******************************************************************** -A personal note about teams Not to get everyone down but after this weekend i really need to talk about TEAMS!!! I was on a team shooting this weekend, but i dont consider us a team. My deffinition of a team is a close group of friends that you do stuff with, like play sports. Each one is friendly to the other and so on. This is not how our team is. For the most part, I have been alienated by the better shooters but not by the moderate shooters. This seems very weird but was only help along by dating a better shooter. (long story, but she still holds a grudge) I cannot comuicate in ANY way with my so called team mates. so are we a team?? Not in my eyes, I'm just stuck with them because i meet the score requirement. I gets even better, I'm not only on one team that is like this..... but rather two. Shooting has started becoming a hinderance only because I must put up with all the "TEAM unity" stuff. I still love shooting but I am draged down by all the tention between team members. On another note, the monthly matches at our club, i have bonded with the local shooters and cant wait to shoot with them this month. A word to all coaches, in order to truly have a strong team the members must do something other than meet and shoot. The Team needs to bond with non-shooting activites and have FUN!! -Ross Miller ******************************************************************** Ross Miller wrote: > > -A personal note about teams > > I was on a team shooting this weekend, but i dont consider us a > team. My deffinition of a team is a close group of friends that you do stuff > with, like play sports. Each one is friendly to the other and so on. This is > not how our team is. It's a lot more fun when a team is like the above, but it's not essential. One sports psychologist who I listened to gave the example of a professional sports team who were extremely successful, but who didn't like one another. After all, shooting is less of a team sport than rowing or football, as it is based upon separate individual performances. If your team has high scores because they are ruthlessly competitive with each other, or because they love each other to bits, the short-term match result is the same. (The result over the long term may be damaging, but then again.....) A big difference is the size of the team. A four-person team where one is a source of tension is not ideal; but if the team is big enough, there is room for differences. The important thing is that the team has a common goal, to which all the members are committed, and are willing to support each other to that end. (Some of my experience has been outside of shooting, running quite large teams of people while balancing the various tensions within groups but still being successful. Yes, it's a balancing act, but it's possible) > I cannot comuicate in ANY way with my so called team mates. so are we a > team?? Not in my eyes, I'm just stuck with them because i meet the score > requirement. I gets even better, I'm not only on one team that is like > this..... but rather two. Shooting has started becoming a hinderance only > because I must put up with all the "TEAM unity" stuff. I still love shooting > but I am draged down by all the tention between team members. If there's any back-biting or other personal tensions, then yes, it can have a bad effect on the team as a whole. You perform at your best when you can focus completely on the task at hand. However, the best person to talk about this with is your team coach, or team captain. In an ideal world, they will be the wise, all-knowing, guru who can sort things out. In the real world, they may not realise that such things are going on until they are told (especially as team sizes grow). Have a quiet talk with the coach/captain; they may be able to put things in a different light. As a "what-if", have you considered how your team-mates see you? What I see in myself as "being friendly and chatty" may be seen by others as "being noisy and distracting". What I see as self-confidence may be seen by others as arrogance. The dividing line is a matter of (mostly other people's) opinion. My advice for being a good team member, try never to be divisive. Accept that some things will annoy you, then cope with it quietly. Take your problems to your coach, not to everyone within earshot. Look for tolerance, and for mutual respect. > A word to all coaches, in order to truly have a strong team the members > must do something other than meet and shoot. The Team needs to bond with > non-shooting activites and have FUN!! Hmmm. In my experience, it's a good way to get people to bond, but then it isn't vital. For instance, if there are two people who don't get along, but who are perfectly willing to work in total support of each other, then forcing them to artificially "have fun" may well be counterproductive, if you get it wrong. Sometimes people need space. Remember, that "FUN!!" is subjective - For instance; your eighteen-year-old novice team member may really enjoy staying out late, listening to loud music, and chasing members of the opposite sex. If their team-mate is fifteen years older, married, and enjoys solitude and peaceful music, then finding common ground will be a real challenge...... Martin Sinclair ******************************************************************** I know this isn't a real technical question but i was wondering if there are ways to 'get over', or get past burnout. Any sport over time becomes very mundane(sp). I know many other people face this every year especially collegiate shooters because of the long season. If anyone has any suggestions I know there are many people out there that would really appreciate it. I love the sport of shooting, but i'm getting sick of it, because of this i think my scores are lacking... Thanks, -Jason ******************************************************************** Try taking a complete break from the sport after the end of season, rather than trying to go straight back into your training cycle. Go ski, or walk up a hill, or something fun - but not shoot. One option is to look at your training programme, and make sure that you're not just doing the same thing, over and over. Compete in a different league, or competition. Vary your training. Try fresh approaches. Change things. If you're a prone-only shooter (common in the UK) you could take up PSK, or air rifle. Hope the above helps... Martin ******************************************************************** OK heres my two cents. This doesn't just apply to shooting, or even sports, its *everything* in life that can suffer from this. Basically your problem stems from lack of direction. You've run out of 'things to aim for' ( if you'll pardon the pun). You're just shooting the usual schedule with the usual people, scores about the same ( or even getting worse ) .. sound about right? What you need to do is set goals and then achieve them. Small goals that you can do. "I'm going to move my average at least 0.8 by this time next month" things like that. maybe pull out of some of the minor leagues you shoot in and work towards a 'biggy' .. county trials, etc ... This where your coach should be helping out .. spotting a competition that he thinks will challenge you and building up to it. Not the local one you shoot every year, but something new .. exciting. Vary your schedule too. Shooting covers many many aspects .. always shot indoor prone? try some 50m outdoor, or even have a crack at 300m fullbore. what about 3P? the bottom line is: you will only be any good at something if a) you feel you are 'achieving' and b) you are interested. Set achievable, but challenging goals and go out and do them. Add some interest to your game. Works for me ... -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** Wanted: Shooting sports related clipart. Please reply off list to goodwin@cottagesoft.com ******************************************************************** For Chet, Vince, Robin, and everyone else who has been following the thread about "inner" vision vs. "physical" vision: We could each discuss our own opinions until the cows come home (as we say here in Wisconsin) or we could look at some actual data. If one is willing to grant that shooting with telescopic sights takes the issues of nearsightedness and focal length out of play, and to some degree simplifies the entire issue of sight picture, then one would expect that the same shooters firing the same courses of fire with the same equipment (excepting the sighting system system) would, in general, fire better scores with 'scope sights than with iron sights. How to test this hypothesis? Well, the NRA has conducted prone championships at Camp Perry for decades. The prone championship has two 3200 point matches, one with iron sights and one with "any" (read "telescopic") sights. Since many shooters fire excellent prone scores, this match is particularly useful in standardizing the data. If one had access to the data, one could compare the final scores and X-counts of a selected cohort over the time period available. If that time period is long enough, any differences attributable to conditions in a given year would be balanced out. One could determine if there was a statistically significant difference between iron-sight scores and any-sight scores, and extrapolate that result to settle the issue of "physical" vision. (A similar experiment could be done by comparing the scores for indoor NRA 3-Position Sectional results - often fired with telescopic sights - to the scores fired in NRA International 3P Sectionals which are fired with irons. There are more confounding factors in this comparison, however.) I don't have this data, so I can't do the calculations. If anyone out there does have the data and wants to work it up, please post the results for us here on Michael's list. I would also welcome any observations of long-time NRA prone shooters, who have the most experience in this area. Their opinions are valuable, even without rigorous data analysis to back them up. Tom Neuser ******************************************************************** A couple of thoughts on scopes vs. irons... We shoot indoor 4 position gallery in the winter. The first six matches are with iron sights, the next 12 are with any sights, most of us turn to scopes for this second series of matches. The scores always are higher for the scoped series. I've been shooting this for 3 years. As I have gotten better, the scores between the the series are increasing and the difference between the two is getting smaller. Note that we are shooting at 50 feet. So the real question is why is this? From my own perspective, I think the scopes give one a much more precise holding position. Not a tighter hold, but much better/easier at being on target. I am guessing that it is easier to avoid a bad shot when shooting "scoped." But I am just a beginner and am slowly learning to shoot the free rifles. I do find shooting iron sights to be more relaxing, since the sight picture seems so much steadier. I use a 24 power scope and thus there is a bit of seen movement when shooting with the scope. Rich Hume [Editor - another reader commented... Read Pullum's book ... some good comments about this subject. R/Lee] ******************************************************************** > > then one would expect that the same shooters > > firing the same courses of fire with the same equipment (excepting the > > sighting system system) would, in general, fire better scores with 'scope > > sights than with iron sights. hmmm .. no sorry .. that data when analyzed will tell you how iron sights ( both with and without corrective lenses ) compare to telescopic sights .. it will not tell you how iron sights without correction compare to iron sights with correction.. which I believe was the orginal point. You have to be careful when picking data to study both in the data, and what you study it for, or the results may not be telling you what you think they are! FWIW, I find iron ( or dioptre, as I prefer to call them ) sights better than telescopic sights when using a properley sized foresight for a round bull target. Unless the telescopic sights have enough power to distinguish the 'bull' marks, then I find I am guessing where the centre might be. -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** I don't have a lot of experience shooting scopes, but I would suspect that shooting a scope removes the possibility of sight alignment (the front sight in the rear aperture) errors. It may also be easier for some folks to see and if you're able to see the shots on the paper through the scope you may not need to use a spotting scope. You should have the spotting scope set up so that you don't have to move off the rifle to see through it, but we all know that this doesn't always happen (especially for "relatively" new shooters) and that can lead to excess movement/position creep. Personally, I don't like shooting with a scope. They're too heavy and the additional weight kills me. Being able to see how much I'm actually moving is distracting too. Good Shooting, Mark ******************************************************************** This discussion has gone on for years and yet a conclusion has not yet arrived. Several things that we should not do is call the shot, count the scores or bullets, use scopes (rifle or spotting) during the training sessions or competitions. Yell if you want but there are times when scopes must be used for justified reasons but generally never during correct training sessions and competitions. Confused?....Don't be friends. The reason is this. Psychologically you set a goal and you have accepted this goal. But this goal is very fluid and is at time fleeting in that it flips between the goal you have accepted and want to use and the new input of errors and bad sighting alignment to bull. This implies that a bad shot viewed through the scope becomes the new goal for the next shot and will be that bad shot again. The main reason is your failure to remove all emotional elements of fear, doubt, and other mental conditions that make you feel you cannot fire the PBE. Because of this failure the shooting athlete will continue making errors in technique and defeat their own efforts. If you live in the conscious mental entity then you will continue to suffer such disabilities. With the remission of emotion within the conscious mental entity and the forcing of the conscious into a passive mode the athlete will find the abilities of the unconscious coming forward and the autonomic and cortical systems taking over the full range of shooting activities. So the shooting goal is a simple PBE as accomplished with the one-shot-match. As long as this is your simple goal then the autonomic and cortical systems know what you want and then will adjust the neuromuscular system to accomplish this feat. How does this goal become changed...? Simple, think of a bad shot or bad position, or convince yourself you cannot do it or go beyond a specific score. With such spontaneous thoughts you are defeating your own efforts. There is no way you will win any competitions. We find that scopes do not help any shooter than to show to past and not the future. We find the iron sights do not show the past but show the future and assist the unconscious to developing and the maintenance of the shooting goal. By using the front sight you are forcing the unconscious to focus on sight alignment and the shooting technique not as it was but is to be. In this manner you have removed all the error found in the use of scopes. Any coach walking behind the line can tell if you are scared and not sure of your effort or if you are firing the shooting technique will full confidence in the fact you fully understand your technique and are following the firing plan originated the day before any given competition. The decision is not up to me but you. My job is to advise you and give you the rules of technique but I will not fire the course for you nor will I be a crutch for you. When I shaved this morning I did not see a security blanket either so please look to yourself when you fail in the shooting technique as it is your ability to remove the many eorrs you may have. The only delay in correction is you and you procrastinating by putting off till tomorrow or the next practice to correct your shooting errors. Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** Mark, I can't argue with what you say. I don't use a spotting scope when shooting the scope. And certainly the alignment of the front and rear iron sights is no longer a concern. I think that the free rifles are very sensitive to the human-machine position. It seems to me to be a very subtle sport in that regard. I am continually surprised by this. But when the shooting is at 50 feet, the angular error introduced by body position inconsistency should be pretty small. Almost all of the shooting out this way is done with a scope, so I don't spend a lot of time working on iron sight shooting. I'll try and have your comments in mind when I get back to it. Thanks for your comments, Rich ******************************************************************** I've not done much 0.22 shooting with a scope; but I have spent a lot of time using a x4 optical sight in what the Americans refer to as "high-power". Chet Skinner wrote: > > We find that scopes do not help any shooter than to show to past and > not the future. We find the iron sights do not show the past but show > the future So, as I understand it, if you have a scope on your rifle powerful enough to remove the need for a spotting scope, then you will be distracted by the holes from previous shots on the target. Another poster has pointed out that the brain is very good at recognizing concentric circles; thus target rifle iron sights are optimised for aiming at black circles on a white background. Unfortunately, the majority of scope sights are designed for hunting, not target shooting, and have an aiming point (indicated by a dot, crosshair, or T-shaped "pointer with level bars"). So, while you gain on the "not worrying about front/rear sight alignment", you may lose on the "it's not as easy to centralise the sight picture" and "you pick up additional distracting information that doesn't help you to aim any more effectively". The answer would seem to be a low-power optical sight with a ring for an aiming mark, that gives a target image where the aiming ring and bull are both in focus, at a point where the eye is relaxed. The only optical sight that I've seen that fits the bill is the 1.5x sight on the Steyr AUG - so any Austrian, Irish, Australian, or New Zealand soldiers, or US Customs officials should be able to try aiming at a ISSF-style target and get back to us....... ...Of course, this imaginary sight would need to have a adjustable aiming image, to create the same effect as a variable iris foresight... [:-)] [:-)] [:-)] Martin Sinclair ******************************************************************** > Personally, I don't like shooting with a scope. They're too heavy and the > additional weight kills me. Being able to see how much I'm actually moving > is distracting too. some shooters have got good results from using powerful scopes for training. being able to see the movement means you can learn to control it, find techniques to eliminate it etc, Think of it as a 'poor mans Noptel' [;)] -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** Well Robin you're correct and you can detect movement in the position and rifle or pistol. However, this is after the fact movement and too late for the athlete to detect. By waiting this late you will find the beginning of the shakes in position and rifle or pistol hold. This is the penalty one suffers for using an incorrect shooting technique. Why wait for the scope when the same movement can be detected at the start by monitoring the front sight for movement right from the start...? If you wait for the scope then you are going to attempt stabilizing through muscle flex with excessive tension. This is a major error in technique. Every human has the ability at birth to stop this movement by mental technique. It is very simple to accomplish. Watch the front sight for movement and when it swings past the bull three times it will stop its movement for 3/4 of a second and them regain movement again. Because this swing is stopped by mental control, the whole body and the internal functioning comes to a stop for that 3/4 of a second. For those using the mental checklist, the trigger pull will occur in-between heart beats while the lungs are also balanced. This is really easy to accomplish. Ok the yelling can commence....:-)) Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** Rifle Coach School - March 23 and 24 in Kalamazoo, Mich. Want to learn more about rifle shooting? Help your team get better? Coaching athletes, especially young athletes, is one of the most challenging endeavors-and one of the most rewarding. Some of the athletes you coach one day may represent America in international competition. To help you give them the best start, participate in the USA Shooting/NRA Shooting Coach Certification Program. More Information: Contact Curt Ingersoll, 10594 "S" Ave. East, Scotts, Michigan. 49088 Phone: Days - (616)-626-8285, Evenings - 626-8285, or E-mail Curt.D.Ingersoll@pharmacia.com ******************************************************************** Hi all, I was reading through some old posts about bedding when I remembered hearing something about bedding/clamping the barrel and floating the action. I have a stray (and probably erroneous) memory of being told that the Unique alu stock used this principle. I gather the Russians experimented with the idea many moons ago but I don't know the result. From a layman's point of view this technique sounds workable, as surely the place where is it most important to have totally free movement is where there is the most vibration, and that must be the breech, isn't it? Also, if the barrel is relatively under control, would this not eliminate any potential harmonic vibration problem? I must stress I have no reason to believe this method is better (or in fact that anything I've typed is technically accurate). I'm just wondering why it isn't. Neil ******************************************************************** Floating the barrel does not reduce vibration. Many have found that vibration can be reduced and group sizes made substantially smaller, by adding a pressure button between the front of the stock and the barrel. This can then be adjusted to control vibration until minimum group size is reached. The standard way of dealing with vibration in a free floated barrel, is to select or hand load ammo that exits at some moment in the usual vibration pattern when the muzzle happens to be not moving. Or use a heavy enough barrel that it doesn't vibrate much. Adjustable barrel weights can also tune the vibration pattern to match any selected ammo, without causing the problem described below. The main problem with a non-floated barrel is that it is in contact with the stock, and the stock bends slightly as you apply sling pressure to it. So unless you can apply exactly the same amount of sling pressure on every shot, this will cause stray shots in position rifle shooting even though the gun might be excellent in bench rest. We assume the action is short and stiff. So when you bend the stock, the stiff action is bedded at only one point in the stock and is not bent by the applied force. The barrel, which contacts only the action, is also not affected, and so the sights (iron or scope), attached to the rigid action and unpressured free barrel, continue to point where the bullet will hit. It doesn't matter what single point of the barreled action is held by the stock. It can be a short section at the back of the barrel, or a couple of bolts on the action. It is important that the attachment be solid enough not to cause increased vibration, while not causing the barreled action to bend in following any bend in the stock. Benjamin ******************************************************************** Hi Ben and every one else, Benjamin is very correct but sure went the long way around the problem. This is not bad over all as it covers all the general influences effecting the one shot match and any good athlete must pay strict attention to this aspect of competitive shooting. First of all the action must be solid in the bedding of the stock, regardless of material used. The barrel is to float free of all influences. Upon the round being fired a series of vibrations commences at the receiver and flows with the bullet through the barrel. Now we must address the problem of vibration. This is still the gunsmiths realm as the barrel must be machined in such a manner to reduce or eliminate the effects of vibration. The Army way is to added dampers or tuners to the barrel and watch it work. But the real fault is incorrect machining of the barrel. It is true a heavy barrel was a one time attempt to correct the vibration problem but we now know more is needed. I will not go into the position and how the stock is handled during the shooting action but with all the old and poor advice made available in the past from trial and error methods, Don't believe me, Why the Alum stock....? because wood flexed so the only other possible stock is made out of stainless steel and maybe the human will not bend it under pressure. If any shooting athlete wants the stock to work for them, then back off and allow it to do its job. You may have noted the mental type bending a fork or spoon and so forth. While you fail to realize you do the same thing to any given stock, you had better learn to reduce the pressure and use the stock as it was meant to be used, as an aid to stabilizing the influences during the shooting technique. Yes, lecture, lecture.... Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** > Don't believe me, Why the Alum > stock....? because wood flexed so the only other possible stock is made > out of stainless steel and maybe the human will not bend it under pressure. It has nothing to do with the stock 'bending' ... its all to do with consistency. The amount the stock bends and flexes is minimal compared to the movement in your shoulder when the shot is fired. When the shot is fired, the barrel vibrates .. nothing wrong with that. So long as the barrel vibrates the same each time the shot will fall in the same place. Firmly held at the breech seems to yield the best results and the amount of pressure applied by the bedding bolts affects the vibration. The problem with wooden stocks is that the wood expands and contracts, mainly affected by humidity, and varies the pressure applied by the bedding bolts day to day ... if you remember to re-torque the bedding bolts every day then thats fine, an aluminium stock won't be affected by humidity so its one less thing to have to do each match. ( it will still be affected by heat, but much less than wood ). The other way round this is to have the action 'pillar bedded' ... instead of being clamped using bolts through wood, an aluminium pillar is inserted into the woodwork and the bedding bolts go through this. a conventional glass/epoxy bedding job is done on the stock so you have the best of both worlds, the consistency of the bedding with the comfortable feel of your wooden stock. -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #14 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm