This is the second part of #11.

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In this issue:

Practice air rifle (Challenger 2000)?
Re: Practice air rifle (Challenger 2000)?
2002CA for sale
Rifle cylinders & # of shots
Re: Rifle cylinders & # of shots
Re: Rifle cylinders & # of shots
Buttplates
Re: Buttplates
Re: Buttplates
Re: Buttplates
New S&N phone number
Sight guidelines for older shooters
Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters
Re: Sight guidelines for older shooters
Switch to contacts? (was Sight guidelines for older shooters)
Training regimen with limited time
Finding used junior rifles
Wanted: used 1451 rifle

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Hello all!
I am considering the purchase of an air rifle for "home practice" on
some of these snowy Upstate New York winters. I have been looking at
the Crosman Challenger 2000. Any input? I don't want to spent a lot
of money (Anschutz is out), but I would like something that can be
used in the three positions. Any other suggestions? I'd like to
keep the cost down to about $250 US.
Jim

[Editor - From what I've heard the Challenger cannot hold the 10 ring so it may
frustrate you. I'd look into the new Daisy (Avanti I think) even though
it's over your budget (~$400). It is scuba so you either need a tank
(preferred) or a pump. If you definitely don't want over $250, then I'd try
the Daisy sporter guns (eg, 853) that most of the juniors use. They will be
much more pain to cock in position, but they are capable of keeping them
all in the 10 ring. Sporter scores you see are noticeably lower than
precision scores but they also cannot wear any of the fancy equipment.
Sporter guns don't have a rail on the foreend but you should be able to add
one.]

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Our local 4H has several of the Challenger 2000s, and they found that they are extremely finicky about pellets. The only pellets they have found which will give consistent accuracy are the Crossman Premier Match pellets. Tried H&N, R10, Vogel, & Nygord with no success.
Pat McCoy

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Hey all
Speaking of Air guns, I have a 2002CA Alu that I would like to rid myself
of. I think $1100.00 is ok, it has 3 (yes three) air cylinders, and 2 extra
barrel weights. This is without the sights, because I am rather fond of the
Anschutz sights. If there are any questions email me at
Centershotkid@hotmail.com
Many Thanks
-Ross

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I am taking everyone's advice and asking more questions, so I hope no
one gets annoyed =)
1. How long will the air remain inside an Anschütz air cylinder? Will
it stay as long as it is sealed or do you have to release it at some
point for safety?
2. How many shots can a shooter get out of one cylinder, and as the
pressure inside the cylinder goes down, won't that effect the
performance of the pellets??? I would think that they would gradually
lose power and start dropping shots lower and lower?
I know that the current world record was shot with an Anschütz CA air
rifle (at least the last time I checked it was) but I just want to know
for my own peace of mind I guess.
Thanks for any help! =)
Vince

[Editor - The 600 was shot with a P70. Not that any other rifle couldn't do that since they all have equal
accuracy, that's just what Tavarit uses. Now the final world record
(599+103.4) was shot with a 2002CA or that was what Leif was using the last
I knew.]

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Vince Joaquin wrote:
>
> 1. How long will the air remain inside an Anschütz air cylinder? Will
> it stay as long as it is sealed or do you have to release it at some
> point for safety?

I don't know what it says in the Anschutz manual, but if you shoot the gun
regularly you will always have air in the cylinder. I have never had a
problem with long term air in unused air pistol cylinders. The only reason I
know to release air pressure is for commercial shipping or air travel where
safety requires empty cylinders.

> 2. How many shots can a shooter get out of one cylinder, and as the
> pressure inside the cylinder goes down, won't that effect the
> performance of the pellets??? I would think that they would gradually
> lose power and start dropping shots lower and lower?

The number of shots depends on several factors such as (usually adjustable)
pellet velocity, but I would expect at least a hundred with any SCUBA rifle.
The smaller cylinders on my air pistols last well over 100 (although at
lower velocity), and the Daisy 888 CO2 rifle is specified at somewhere
around 300.
SCUBA rifles, as for SCUBA diving, have a regulator to control the pressure.
You need a minimum pressure to activate the regulator for best accuracy.
There should be some means of determining pressure, such as a gauge on the
end of the cylinder. As long as you stay between the functional minimum and
the safe maximum, the regulator will maintain a constant pressure to drive
the pellets. This is the primary advantage of SCUBA air over CO2 liquid,
plus the SCUBA rifles are also easier to fill.
CO2 airguns do not have a regulator, the pressure is determined by the
temperature of the CO2 in the cylinder. This pressure will remain constant
in the cylinder as long as any liquid CO2 at all remains and the temperature
doesn't change. This system also works well as long as you don't try to
shoot the gun immediately after bringing it inside from a hot or cold
outside temperature.
For either SCUBA or CO2, once you run out of excess pressure or liquid, the
remaining pressure will drop on every shot and the pellets start to shoot
lower.

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I read on one of the airline sites (Delta) that you can take SCUBA tanks on
the plane with up to 40PSI. That tells me that our airgun cylinders don't
have to be empty (just really low). Personally, I never travel with the
cylinder completely empty. I suspect that may allow contaminants into the
cylinder and that's something no one wants.
As for number of shots, I start every match with a near full cylinder. I
may shoot 2 matches without refilling, but no more than that.
Take Care,
Mark

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As for my opinion on buttplates it’s very simple, the S&N is the best. I
have had a red on for about 8 months now and simply love it. Yes the top and
bottom are separate movable parts. I like this so I can get great placement
of the hook in kneeling. The top thingy (very technical term)(the part that
cants to match the upper shoulder) I have moved to the optimum place. When I
get into position correctly (I will not start on how 95% of kneeling in the
way you get down into it) I can shoot 96-98 on the USA-50 target. As for the
adjustability, it’s total. Both the top and the bottom swivel left and
right, cant, and can be positioned very high and very low. Although one
warning, I took me forever to get the buttplate to feel right. As for the
differences between the S&N and the MEC FREE POSITION, the MEC bolts on to
the carrier of your rifle. The S&N has its own carrier mechanism. At the
time I wanted to use my old buttplate and get a totally separate one for
another position. The MEC can do all the things the S&N can, but it is a
little smaller and the MEC looks to me to be hindered by the center pillar
mount, but I have never used one.
For more help I'd Call Janet Raab of Center Shot Sports.
-Ross Miller

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One adjustment I like on the Anschutz 4762 buttplate that I've not seen on
any other buttplate is the ability to rotate the hook up and down on a
vertical plane. I use that one a lot. Anyone know of another butt that can
do that?
Has anyone stripped out the threads on the 4765 plate yet? On the 4762,
it's a nut/bolt combo so you just have to replace that. On the 4765, the
threads are machined into the pieces. You have to tighten the pieces so
much to keep them from moving it seems it is just a matter of time before
they strip.

The Editor

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Michael,
if you mean that little rat tail piece on the Anz, the MEC has a similar
adjustment. only on the MEC the point or rotation is further back. as for
stripping the threds on the 4765, yes, i have done this because i swap
plates from standing to kneeling. I think the design is nuts, trying to
thred that screw takes skill :)
-Ross

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No, not the "rat tail" piece. I like that description though - never heard
it before. The entire hook, which was curved to begin with rather than
straight, could be rotated on a vertical plane on the previous Anschutz
free rifle buttplate.
That wasn't the screw on the 4765 I was concerned about. The 4762 is the
same in that regard and we've stripped at least 4 of those, but it's easy
to replace the nut and bolt. You are correct that it's a pain to slip it
through the collar if you took the bolt out. I'd probably just get rid of
the collar and spring altogether if I was swapping the whole butt (but not
the carrier).
Anyway, I was talking about the bolt that fixes the tailhook on the post.
You have to really crank down on it to keep the tailhook from rotating in
position yet the bolt is threaded into the aluminum piece, not a nut. It's
just asking to be stripped and you'd need a new tailhook to fix it.

The Editor

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The address given on the list for S & N (uk) limited no,longer seems to work
( at least the telephone doesn't) anyone got an up-to-date UK phone number
for them?
-- 
Robin Szemeti

[Editor - I'm sorry I didn't forward this to the list since it was sort of a
discussion between Martin and I.
Martin wrote:
I spoke to Robert; he does do true left-handed Ultras, and even has some in
stock at the moment, but normally builds them to order. His number (after
the factory move) is now +44-1452-729888.....]

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At 05:18 AM 12/27/01, Garry L. Mauger wrote:
>I would encourage more articles, not less.
>
>Topics such as:
>* sight selection rules or guides for middle-aged shooters;

I'm not that old yet, but I certainly have an opinion and I'm sure the
elders out there will shoot me down if I'm way off. Pistol shooters will
have it worse than rifle I suspect since it isn't as easy to use an iris
I'd guess (perhaps those clip-on models work great) and the front sight is
likely closer to them. However, the key to good pistol shooting from what
little I know is to be focusing on the front sight only and leave the
target a blur. Hence, I suspect that it will just be more of a blur as one
ages. You can always get corrective lenses, which will not be your normal
prescription by the way, to keep the sight in focus when your eyes are relaxed.
I believe that rifle shooters should do the same thing. Focus on the front
sight, not the bull or both. We do have an added advantage over pistol for
those who insist on trying to focus between the sight and the bull in that
you can install an extension tube to increase the sight radius, reducing
the depth of field required. I know for a fact that I can shoot just as
well without my glasses as I can with them. I have to crank the rear iris
all the way down when I do it so the front sight isn't too blurry (pinhole
effect), but it isn't rocket science aligning the slightly blurry aperature
around the blob. Center of mass.
Most people use an aperature that is too small for them anyway (see recent
kneeling discussion) though it does come down to personal preference. I
used to use a 3.2 in air, which is pretty small. Now I use a 4.0. When I
visited Germany in October, both air rifles I borrowed had 3.1 in them! I
still did pretty well (the beer didn't help). Anyway, all I've ever heard
is that people usually use larger aperatures as they age. Not sure if that
is from wisdom or eyesight, but I think it boils down to what works for
you. I wouldn't use any smaller than what it takes to keep the bull within
the app during your hold though.
Michael Ray

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Hello,
I always felt that seeing the bull is more important (and I do fall
under the definition of older shooters who needs reading glasses and
have -7.0 prescription). My assumption when I shoot is that the
sights are already aligned!!
EB

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Sighting is effected by the mind and not the eye or conscious entity. Sighting is developed internal of the mind and the necessary adjusting instructions are issued to the neuromuscular system. Such instructions carry the micro movements necessary to refine the sight and bull alignment prior to and during the trigger pull phase.
Glasses and eye functioning to the conscious is nothing more than external data that will prove or disprove the correctness of the mental process and results. The external information received from the five senses only serve as a model or pattern that will validate or invalidate the analysis and instructions issued to the neuromuscular system during the shooting technique.
Regardless of the age, the shooter only needs to clearly see the front sight. The fuzzy information or that which you note in the peripheral of the eye is the important aspect of any sighting ability. For this, glasses have no useful purpose.
Glasses adjusted for the focal length that is registered from the eye to the front sight is all that is required. In my case, wear glasses to compute and read but to sight I need none.
My unconscious as you will does all the analysis and directs adjustment necessary to effect a sight alignment for achieving the perfect bulls eye.
The unconscious mental entity through analysis sets the muscles to affect the perfect bull eye. It uses the center of mass as the target goal for the adjustment necessary. While this is projected from fuzzy objects it is nevertheless an ability of the mental entity that takes the center of mass from any fuzzy object and produces a higher level of precision than any mechanical device such as the sights can produce.
Because we live and work in the conscious level, it is very hard for us to understand this simple fact. Our center of the shooting function is in fact centered in and around the unconscious cortical nodes of our mental system. With its analysis or responses from the 5 senses and with the response from the kinesthetic system we have our technical precision sighting technique.
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UIT_COACHING

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I'm not that old yet either, but I've got a question concerning my tweaked
eyeballs. One of the shooters from the OTC has encouraged me to try
shooting with contacts instead of my glasses. I haven't tried shooting with
contacts for a number of years. The few times I did try them, my first
thought was that I could "feel" them on my eyes and that was distracting for
me, so I went to glasses. However, I'm considering it again. How many of
you shoot with contacts and what are your contact peculiar experiences using
them? Do you see better or worse, than with glasses?
Thanks,
Mark

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At 05:18 AM 12/27/01, Garry L. Mauger wrote:
>I would encourage more articles, not less.
>
>Topics such as:
>* a discussion on training regimens for those with limited time to enjoy the sport;

This one is easy. Practice as much as you possibly can anywhere you can!
I'm in this same boat.
First off, your goals should be planned out based on the training you have
available or you will become disillusioned. Second, by practice, I don't
necessarily mean shooting. Assuming you already have a fair knowledge of
what you SHOULD be doing (eg, you can shoot a solid 10 and know it was
because of your performance and not luck), you can gain much benfit from
mental training. This you can do anywhere, anytime. It only takes a few
minutes to visualize what it looks and feels like to shoot a good shot
going through your entire shot routine. You can also get in position in any
spare time so your body doesn't lose the memory as much. I "shoot standing"
in my cubicle at work.
Anyway, this was just something quick to hopefully kick off some
discussion. I think mental training will give the most bang for the buck by
far of anything you can do with limited time.
Michael Ray

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At 05:18 AM 12/27/01, Garry L. Mauger wrote:
>I would encourage more articles, not less.
>
>Topics such as:
>* how to select quality secondhand equipment for novice and junior shooters;

First, I'd read my little page on getting started
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/starting.htm
I'll assume you are referring to rifles in this regard. This will be short
and sweet since it's late for me but here's my opinion: buy the best you
can get (assuming the junior is serious). I'm not sure what it is like Down
Under, but Anschutz dominates the US market so they are easiest to find.
You want something that is not too big for them but also that they won't
quickly outgrow. The 1451 would be good from age 8-12 I'd think, and then
the 1903 from 10-15, followed by the xx07 families for 12 and up. All of
these can have spacers added to increase the length of pull and weight of
one type or another is easy to add. I personally am going to skip the 1903
for my son since the 1907 is only 1/2 pound heavier and has a much better
trigger and action. I think they should have made the 1903 another pound
lighter. It is about half the price of the 1907 though so it's much more
accessible to juniors on a budget if you can find one used. I'm not sure
what kind of used market there is for Anschutz junior rifles though as I
don't think they really made any until the mid 80s or so though I think I
have heard of a 1403 which would be in the 70s. There should be a fair
number of xx07 rifles on the market.
As for used rifles in general, a target grade rifle should be fairly stout
so unless one has been abused, they should be in fair condition. It's
pretty easy to see if a bolt action rifle still works fine. If a rifle has
been shot a LOT, you may see some wear just in front of the chamber. If the
bore isn't clean then clean it so you can see any obvious wear spots
easier. The crown should be in perfect condition and not show any wear.
Check the face of the chamber for dings where the firing pin may have hit
(indicating a poorly fitted pin at one time that was dryfired). The barrel
should be free floating and you should check the wood stock at the action
(take the action out of the stock) to make sure it is perfectly dry and
hasn't been modified (except to be bedded perhaps). While you've got it out
of the stock, check the trigger condition. It should be lubed (which
attracts dust, of course), but it shouldn't be filthy.
That should be enough to get you started.
Michael Ray

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I am looking for a used 1451 Anschutz for an 8 year old. Anybody
knows of one for sale?
EB
Eitan@ytd.com

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End of UIT Mailing List #12

Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm