There were so many submissions in the past 2 weeks, that I'm going to split it up into 2 issues again! The second part will go out shortly. Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: General comments (Re: This list is too technical!) Re: This list is too technical! / aperature size General comments (Re: This list is too technical!) Thanks for kneeling position help Ammunition and Air Travel Re: Ammunition and Air Travel Re: Ammunition and Air Travel Re: Ammunition and Air Travel Re: Ammunition and Air Travel Where to find USED air rifles Need prone help on multi-bull targets Re: Need prone help on multi-bull targets Walther LG200 opinions please FWB air rifle / pistol / RT stuff for sale 1907 stock wanted Chronographs Re: Chronographs Re: Chronographs Air rifle sights Re: Air rifle sights Re: Air rifle sights ******************************************************************** Hi Michael: I have not given comment to your mailing list in the past so I will try to keep this response brief. "Never give up the opportunity to learn." I have been on your mailing list for quite sometime now and look forward to the information provided by you and your respondents. When I began sport/competitive shooting, I as most shooters was in a situation where we trained alone. We had a limited supply of information sources. If we were lucky we could find a few books that would give us some valuable clues but we still had to interpret this information on our own. There was a lot of trial and error. It is always important to remember that we were all beginners at one time. The fact that we progressed to a higher level, at least for me, can be attributed to the help and support I received from the people around me. I would have been very excited to have the internet and e-mail at my disposal when I began. I am sure I could have used it to take years off my training. Your mailing list is definitely an asset. There are questions asked and responses given from shooters and coaches all over the world, people who have a common interest Keep the communication lines open. No one person knows everything. We will all benefit from the feedback. We are involved in a wonderful sport. It is a sport that forces us to learn about ourselves, physically, mentally and emotionally. It provides us with a base that extends into our lifestyle, family, education and career. I have worked with many Juniors over the years and I am certain that when they leave the sport of shooting, whenever that may be, they are all winners. We are teaching not just sport but life skills as well. Joe Boutilier Canada PS I am involved in the sport of shooting because I love it. I could probably write a short novel on how I feel about it and the benefits derived from it. Keep up the good work. ******************************************************************** Hi Michael, I have read with particular interest, the last UIT. I must also admit, that I am not always on the edge of my seat when I read the "nanotechi" (new word) comments of some of the other contributors. I would suggest to the readers that the logical solution is to simply skip the uninteresting portions and dwell on the jewels that may assist them in reaching their next performance goal. Nanotechi stuff is important, but one must remember that the tightest rifle in the world won't shoot a 10 if the athlete can't hold the 10 ring. While location, location, location may sell real estate, training, training, training, buys tens. I have often been amused by the shooting conversations I have heard off the firing line. I once had the opportunity to be squadded with Col. Wigger at the Highpower Nationals. As one might expect, he drew a bit of a crowd while we were pulling targets. They asked him question after question about rifles, barrels, bullets, twists, and all that stuff. Yet, during the hours that we were held captive by the pit officer, no one ever asked the most prolific medal winner in U.S. history how he shot a 10 or how he won rifle matches. With a little reflection, one can understand this. Equipment questions are easy to ask and answers are easy to understand. Questions concerning technique often require considerable thought to ask and to evaluate and understand the answers. Such questions often require hours of discussion to be fully answered. I have a friend who is one of our Olympic medal winners. The things I can't tell you about this person are interesting. I can tell you who made the rifle, but I can't tell you the model, the ammunition used, the setup of the rifle, or very much about the rest of the equipment. I can tell you more about training exercises, plans, methods, diagnostic tools and the mental approach this person uses. When we get together, I quite often have a multi-page list of questions. We often spend hours going through them and discussing the details. The size of my list is matched only by my friend's patience and helpfulness. Not only has this information helped my scores, but it has helped me teach others. With respect to the front aperture discussion: I only saw one comment that is worth repeating; that being that if one has to err, it should be on the large side. The size of the aperture is so personal, that much of the advice, recommendations, guidelines, etc. are really useless. I have heard both sides of the argument (small vs. large). At an OTC camp a number of years ago, I was advised by one of the national team members that I should tighten the front aperture, as the bull would float in one that was too big. I was using 3.7 or 3.8 in prone and about 3.9 to 4.0 in the other positions. I followed this individual's advice and suffered two years of frustration, until I went back to the larger aperture. Gary Anderson once said that he used a front aperture that was three times the relative size of the aiming bull. What I have learned about aperture size is that the right one is the one that works best for you. This is also true for the adjustments to the rear aperture. It will take experimentation, but perseverance will show what sizes work for the prevailing visibility. So, keep up the excellent work you are doing to give us a forum for the discussion of all shooting related information and opinions. Regards, Lt. Stephen B. Flatt, USNR U.S. Naval Reserve Rifle Team ******************************************************************** Ok here I go, With ref to Vince, I have been shooting for 36 years (I started at 8) and I am still learning! I have got to a reasonable standard (A Class at the NSRA Bisley meets) and have represented numerous county's within the UK, but why do I still compete? I will never make the Commenwealth or Olympic games; the reason is I enjoy myself, I can compete against the best shooters in the UK including Olympic atheletes and occasionally beat them, plus of course at my level, I do win the odd trophy here and there. So to all those aspiring shots out there on the web, keep shooting and passing on your comments we can all learn from each other and this is what communication is all about, remember you are never too old or too good at a sport to learn. Bill Baird ******************************************************************** I want to thank all of the people that gave mw advice on my kneeling position. Well, it seems to have worked! I increased the front sight to a 3.8 and worked on my position and I increased my score to 70/100 from a 45/100! Ok, so it isn't an Earth shattering improvement, but it is better. I'll keep at it and hopefully my scores will continue to increase. Another interesting point, I didn't miss ANY bulls on the A-17 target in kneeling or standing. Hit all 10. Usually I miss at least three each in kneeling and standing. Jim Bongiovanni ******************************************************************** Recently I was told by Eley that they preferred not to air freight ammunition as it was adversely affected (cold ? pressure?) and took some time to settle after the trip (how long?). Does this mean, shooters flyng to competitions are starting at a disadvantage because their ammunition has jet lag? Have a happy new year and good shooting Bill Henry Brisbane, Australia ******************************************************************** as a general rule taking ammunition on a scheduled flight is a no-no .. even in the hold. I've never done it myself, but a couple of the club members have shot internationally and have either bought Tenex in the country and hoped it was a suitable batch, or had some of their stock shipped out beforehand. There are many many places in the ICAO regulations where it forbids the carrying of explosive on passenger aircraft so taking it with is generally not an option. If you did have it air-freighted in a non pressurised aircraft I could see that it might be possible to upset the air pressures inside the cases, which might take a while to settle down, aircraft holds arent particuarly cold, but the pressure does drop to around 1/3 of normal atmospheric, that is a significant amount. if you really do want 'batch selected' ammunition, best bet is to either send it out before hand by freight, or test a few batches of local Tenex( or whatever) when you get there. -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** robin szemeti wrote: > > as a general rule taking ammunition on a scheduled flight is a no-no .. even > in the hold. Do you mean, International scheduled flights, or all flights in general? I have been to several shooting matches in USA and carried guns and ammo with me as checked luggage with the knowledge of the airlines and have never had any problem. They do want the gun and ammo packed in separate luggage, just separate boxes within the same suit case is not good enough, so you will need to take at least 2 suit cases to do it right. I understand that at the Japan olympics, they made all the competitors give all their ammo (and of course guns) to the police for secure lockup. Each competitor had to check out a specified number of cartridges for practice or a match, then every empty .22 cartridge had to be returned to lockup along with any unfired; the Japanese govt apparently considers a single uncontrolled .22 cartridge to be a threat to their nation. But as far as I know, the shooting athletes were expected to arrive with their guns and ammo on the airplane for the competition. This is the first I have heard about carefully testing selected lots of ammo at the Eley factory and then not being allowed to take it to the major international matches! - Benjamin ******************************************************************** Benjamin McLeod wrote: >This is the first I have heard about >carefully testing selected lots of ammo at the Eley factory and then not >being allowed to take it to the major international matches! We don't have an issue with flying, IATA rules allow up to 5kg in manufacturers packages....what is concerning us is the impact on the ammunition of the flight....Clearly Eley would prefer sea or road freight... Not really an option for Australia where we are a minimum of 1000km from every major comp......and with road transport we run the risk of exposing the ammo to high temps for extended periods of time as well... Bill Henry Brisbane ******************************************************************** Hi there! I travel a lot with 6mm ammo, and the max weight is 5kgs in one bag.When I shoot 300m somewhere in Europe I need around 1000 rounds, and that is around 15kgs, 3 times of allowed weight.The planes I'm using usually takes around 150 passengers, and each of those can take 5kgs of ammo with them!I can't take more than 5kgs,so what do I do?These are international IATA rules. I traveled to Switzerland around sep. 20th and had lots of ammo with me plus 2 rifles.It went fine, and I was checked and rechecked everywhere, the captain of one of the planes wanted to see how I looked!I got there and I got back, no problem at all!Just took a little longer. What they don't know is not a problem.It's when they find out what we do, we have problems.It has been in Copenhagen, and only once for us.They weighed the ammo and it was way too much,before W.champs in Spain.After that we have taken extra bags, packed the ammo in several bags, and then no problem.Like I said, every passenger is allowed 5 kgs each, and who wants to know what it says on the tags? But, I have to say that it is really a problem to travel with a couple of guns and the heavy equipment.I have a regular travelload of 45 to 55 kgs, and I 've been lucky so far with no extra cost on planes.Eventually they'll catch up with me?! I have on several occations this year had a friend drive to different venues with ammo and also had fellow shooters from other countries take my ammo home with them for later use.Then I have "sponsonered" the driver with ammo for that particular competition. The guys doing biathlon have a deal with Lufthansa that give them the right to bring 80 kgs of luggage. Us doing the rifle competitions have only 40 kgs.In my opinion our Federation should give us equal rights, but they don't care.It's the "money rule" everywhere.We spend our last dime on ammo, and other athletes get paid to compete. I have chosen to do rifleshooting and I like it! Ammo in planes doesn't degrade as far as I know.People have travelled for years and had no problem.The main problem is behind the stock and if we all practice, a lot, maybe 1000 hours a year for several years we can discuss ammo and other equipment.Just a thought, if anybody shoots 9 out of ten ,10's.Prone 594, 3x40 :396-396-396-1188 .How many rifles will shoot 594 in prone position?The second question is why don't more people shoot around 1185 in 3x40?Ammo?Equipment? If all of us work hard to bring the friendly nature of competitive shooting around, everybody will be friends in the end.That is the nature of CISM(Military Shooting)Their motto is "Friendship through sports". Øyvind ******************************************************************** Hi! I was just wondering if anyone knows a good place to find USED Anschütz or FWB air rifles that are still in excellent condition. I can't afford a new one. I would love to just jump in and buy a new Anschütz 2013 .22 rifle (which I really want) but can't afford that either =). I am trying to get back into competition shape but really don't want to spend over $1,000 US right now. I would greatly appreciate any help! Thanks! Vince Joaquin [Editor - to save space, I'll just include all the responses received here: www.airguns.net under the classified ads www.pilkguns.com under used guns and also under target talk www.nealjguns.com http://members.aol.com/washsmallbore/stufsale.htm www.championshooters.com make sure you go to the COMPETITIONS page and not the regular page] ******************************************************************** >Michael: > >I have a question for the mailing list concerning shooting tactics. While >shooting prone at 50 yards on a 5 bull target , I have difficulty >maintaining my zero when moving from the sighting bull to a scoring bull >or between scoring bulls. I check my zero after moving to the next target >and everything seems OK but usually the first shot on the new target is >well off the zero established on the previous target. I've read the books >and understand that I must re-align my body and not just point the sights >at the new bull. Still, I don't seem to have the technique. Michael, I >imagine indoor shooters must really face this issue - can you or any of >the listers provide any tips? BTW it is easier for me at 100 yards on a 3 >bull target, but still my sling/position seems to change quite a bit >between the sighting and bottom bulls. > >Alan Carey [Editor - How are you adjusting your position between bulls? Is it always "well off" in the same area? How long do you take from the last shot of the previous bull to the first shot on the new bull? To put it simply, once you've found your original NPA, your supporting elbow should never move. You rotate your body about the elbow to move left and right and push forward or pull backward (using toes normally) about the elbow to adjust for height. I like Reinkemeier's fine adjust technique of moving the outside elbow SLIGHTLY (in-out for height and forward-back for windage).] ******************************************************************** Hi there! Prone position is easy and at the same time difficult!You use a hook buttplate I guess?More difficulties?Not necessarily.Take off the buttplate(if You have one that You can do that to)Place on top of Your shoulder(sitting/standing)like it would fit when You shoot.Then arrange it around shoulder/chest, open it up.Put it back on rifle.Then lie down with rifle(have somebody help You)Place the rifle in left arm with a steep angle in elbow area.Then right elbow, (overarm straight down, not to the side) Then You have two very solid points of impact on the shooting mat, and You can go on adjusting the height of buttplate and cheekpiece(I'm just guessing You are using these)Sling on and then You can start.Aim for the center of the five bulls, always.Then You can take them in turn.make sure the light is even over the 5 bull target, light conditions indoors are critical.Open Your Iris all the way behind, and then turn it down until You see the target completely clear(around 1,2 to 1,4)Make sure You have a good contact with the shoulder/buttplate and firm grip with Your right hand!The high position is widely used with success, and indoor at the distance mentioned it could help with better sighting conditions.Proove me wrong! Now make sure You score well!? Øyvind ******************************************************************** At 04:35 PM 12/30/01, you wrote: >I am considering buying a used LG200 and would like to >hear the likes, dislikes and reliability issues if any >from people that have owned them. All comments are >welcomed. Thanks in advance, Darin [Editor - Our team has 2 LG-210 air rifles and I like them. The 210 is the pneumatic version of the 200. Ours have the ambidextrous stock so they can't be adjusted quite as much as a single-handed one I'd guess. You can dryfire the pneumatic version at least. I THINK on the CA version you don't close the loading lever all the way down to dryfire. The trigger shoe cannot be rotated on a vertical axis; only FWB allows that. The trigger itself is on par with Anschutz or FWB IMHO - clean and crisp. As for reliability, ours have held up for a couple years with no problems yet. I'm not sure how the CA version is on this regard. I haven't heard of any problems at least and the newer 300 seems to be well-liked (I'll be buying some of those next year I think). I'd say the biggest thing to look out for was if the previous owner used a hand pump rather than tank to fill the cylinder. It seems the pumps can give off too much moisture which apparently can corrode the AL for some reason. I know Anschutz recommends using tanks rather than pumps.] ******************************************************************** In 1976 I thought I was interested in precision air gun competition and purchased an FWB pistol and rifle and related equipment and for a number of reasons never used any of it. I have the following items to sell; 1. FWB Model 65 with all the wrenches and recoil simulator. 2. A Daisy FWB 300S Match Rifle which is outfitted with an adjustable iris rear sight and a Walter Gehmann iris ring front sight with a set of polar filters. 3. An adjustable running target stock and Leupold M-8-4x scope(with high rings) for the FWB that was parallax adjusted at the factory for 10 Meters. 4. Daisy Running Boar Target system complete. 5. At least a carton each of Rifle, Pistol and Running Boar/Target(I know that Boar is no longer PC but that is what these are) Targets. 6. At least 30,000 .177 Daisy Match Pellets. 7. Lastly an Outers .177 cleaning kit. All the equipment is 100% and I know what I paid in 1976 but have no idea if equipment of this kind is still in use or what it is worth; so I am open to offers, best offer takes all or what ever. Shipping is negotiable based on offer. Contact me directly Happy New Year, Barry M. Wilson 860-872-9446 bwilson41@earthlink.net Semper Vigilans ******************************************************************** Wanted: 1907 stock with rail and trigger guard in good condition. Torque screws not needed. All woods OK. Ralph Goodwin goodwin@cottagesoft.com ******************************************************************** Hello, I am thinking about possibly purchasing a chronograph. I would like to hear some pros and cons about the different models. Here are some links to different chronographs: http://machinerest.hypermart.net/Links.htm#Chronographs Thanks EB ******************************************************************** I've awlays had good results with Competition Electronics. Seems to be really accurate and very dependable. Chuck DiSalvo ******************************************************************** I'd avoid the small metal folding Chrony. Mine never worked well, and would activate with the muzzle blast of an adjacent shooter and give a random reading. The major IPSC makers do good gear, and of course Oehler is the Caddy of the line. Find a unit with the expensive electronics kept behind the firing line and only the sensors in the line of fire. ******************************************************************** I am thinking of purchasing an Anschütz 2002CA Alu in the near future and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the pros or cons of the different sight sets that Anschütz could ship with it. Either the "Match Sight Set" (6805 +6832), or the "Universal Sight Set" (7002/20 + 6832) that cost about $100 more. I guess my main question is this, will upgrading the "match" sights to the "universal" sights for a cost of $100 be an advantage and help me, or is a sight just a sight and the scores all depend on the shooter (which I believe to be true most of the time). Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! VJ [Editor - If you will be shooting smallbore as well where you can swap the sights between the 2 rifles, I'd get the better universal sights. If not or you don't care to swap the sights I'd get the match sights for air rifle. You'd be wasting your money getting the universal for just air rifle IMHO.] ******************************************************************** The Universal Sight set adjustments are twice as fine as the Match set, plus the Universal set is adjustable for cant in both front and rear sights. Whether the increase in cost is worth it depends a lot on your level of shooting. Our top juniors (shooting about 97-98 average) find the Universal set advantageous. Pat McCoy ******************************************************************** By far the Universal sight set is the best for any competitive shooter. While the shooting athlete sights with the mental entity, a casual reference to the external world through the sight set is necessary. One over riding fact is applicable to all shooting athletes. The mental entity will shoot with greater precision than any mechanical device and that includes the universal sight set. For this reason the athlete must go with the best money can buy. Chet Skinner ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #11 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm