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In this issue:
Milan WC 3x40 final
Ammo testing results (was Re: Long or short barrel?)
What torque for a 1913 barrel in 2013 AL stock?
Re: What torque for a 1913 barrel in 2013 AL stock?
Re: What torque for a 1913 barrel in 2013 AL stock?
Re: What torque for a 1913 barrel in 2013 AL stock?
Thune jacket riding up in prone
Re: Thune jacket riding up in prone
Re: 1900 vs 2000 actions / short vs long barrel
Who is your competitor?
2012L for sale
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I read on the thread some comments about the WC Milan 3-P final. I was
there as USA Rifle Team coach. The final was about to start at 1:30pm
that day when a freak lightening bolt struck the grounds during the prep
period. It blew out the control computer and monitor (spectacular and
frightening light flash). The organizers could not get the targets to
respond properly over the next 30 minutes and delayed the final for 3
hours. Three hours later the finalists were greeted by the remnants of
the weather front that caused the earlier lightening strike. Wind gusts
were approaching 20mph from varying directions. The match became quite
Camp Perry like. Jason Parker did a great job of staying ahead of the
gusts and shot nothing lower than an 8.9. Even the 2000 Olympic Gold
medalist, Debevec, had an unfortunate 2.4 in a bad wind gust that blew
him and the shot. Matthew Emmons had a Junior World Record tying
performance during the match and worked hard during the final. The
conditions were very unfortunate, but everyone had the same gusts to
deal with.
Dave Johnson
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Hi Michael,
Saw the notes about muzzle velocity. Attached are the data on my current and recently expended lots of .22 LR ammunition. Expended does not mean completely gone, as I save enough at the end of a lot to use for testing in the future, should I need to run additional comparisons.
These were done with my 1913 rifle. I shot all lots that I had on hand in 1997 and have not used any other lots, to date. I have never shot any Federal ammunition. The WE1306 is paper box Eley. All other Eley is the older plastic box stuff. I did not do simultaneous group testing, but the WE1306 and the WCC1908 are the two lots that shoot the best. WCC1908 (plastic) probably has a slight edge over the paper box. My intent was to determine whether there was a relationship between accuracy and standard deviation. I'm not sure there is much, if any correlation.
The RWS Target is the next best, after the Eley red, with the others bringing up a far rear. The Remington is green box target, the Winchester is military white box.
Let me know if you find this interesting.
Regards,
Lt. Stephen B. Flatt, USNR
U.S. Naval Reserve Rifle Team
[Editor - I didn't include all the data Mr. Flatt attached since it was quite a lot. If anyone would like the file (ascii text), let me know.]
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i simply want to now , at howmatch Nt. do i have to tork my alu. stock anschutz 2000 ,with a 1913 barrel?
I have a verry bad groupment with it . the ammo i use is ely tenex ?
thanks . Ron B.
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At 07:55 AM 6/21/01, you wrote:
>i simply want to now , at how match Nt. do i have to tork my alu. stock
>anschutz 2000 ,with a 1913 barrel?
>I have a verry bad group with it . the ammo i use is ely tenex ?
>thanks . Ron B.
Ron,
Anschutz recommends 5Nm for 1900 series actions and 5.5Nm (I think) for
2000 series actions. It sounds like you are using a 2000 stock with the
adapter plate for a 1913 action so I'm guessing you have 6 screws to deal
with (2 to attach the action to the plate and 4 to attach the plate to the
stock). Did this stock come with rubber or plastic spacers? It seems most
of the ALU stocks have a spacer between the stock and action to take care
of uneven surfaces and dampen vibrations. This was discussed more in depth
in the last couple issues. My guess is you should have both a spacer
between stock/adapter and adapter/action. Of course, I'm assuming you were
getting good groups from this 1913 action before you put it into this stock.
Michael Ray
The Editor
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At 07:55 AM 6/21/01, you wrote:
>i simply want to now , at how match Nt. do i have to tork my alu. stock
>anschutz 2000 ,with a 1913 barrel?
>I have a verry bad group with it . the ammo i use is ely tenex ?
>thanks . Ron B.
I have asked the same question to Jochen Anschutz at the last Milan World cup.
He recommands 5Nm for wood stocks and as much as 6.5Nm for Alu stocks.
Patrick
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Note with interest the recent " What should I torque my XYZ
to?". The issue of torque settings is an interesting one
and the transfer of numbers amongst shooters concerns me.
As a worker in the New Zealand National Standards Laboratory
I am forever coming across instrumentation that people
believe produces Gospel numbers. Once these are "calibrated"
one finds that they can be reading all sorts of garbage. For
instance our records suggest that upwards of 20% of
thermometers are outside of manufacturers specs. And people
rely on them! I can believe the figure would be true for
other instruments - including Torque Wrenches. It seems
that every engineer "believes" that his micrometer, ruler,
caliper and torque wrench is right. Dangerous assumption.
As an aside I would be VERY interested in any gunsmith who
can tell me how regularly they check their measuring
instruments against reliable standards. Rifles and
ammunition are produced to quite tight tolerances. This
means that the measuring instruments need to have tighter
tolerances.)
It is likely that any two Torque wrenches will read
different. One is playing a game of dice using another
shooters settings.
A few points to note are:
If you own a torque wrench use it when testing AND routine
resetting of your screws. By using the same tool a semblance
of consistency can be maintained. If you use one for testing
and one "in your case" then you are asking for trouble.
Make sure the threads on the screw AND in the action are
CLEAN and burr free. Dirt and burrs alter the torque
settings drastically. The screw should smoothly screw in and
out.
When you clean and check the settings make sure the same
amount and type of lubrication is used on the screws and
threads. The amount of lube makes a considerable difference
as well. Put it on and then wipe it off.
Make sure the sides of the screws are not touching the sides
of their holes in the stock. The hole should be just larger
than the screw size. Only the underside of the head of the
screw should touch the stock. This means that the screw is
pulling from the action to the outside of the stock. Also
make sure the screw is straight and not bent! The head of
the screw should rotate around the axis of the screw and not
round and round in a drunken circle!
Make sure the area around the holes and the underside of the
head of the screw are clean and burr free. Same reason as
above.
Make sure that the screws are not bottoming out in the
action. With the action out, put the screw all the way into
the action and measure the distance to the underside of the
screw head. This should be less that the depth of the hole
in the stock. Make sure to get 80 to 90 % of the threads in
the hole used when the screw is tightened fully.
Make sure your wrench is a good one and gives consistent
results. How to test it? Put the allen key end in the vice
and the handle out horizontally. Hang a weight off it that
just triggers the wrench at about the tension you normally
use. Does this weight trigger it all the time? If it doesn't
get the wrench checked out. Using a consistent wrench means
you know the results produced by it are consistent.
When tightening up a screw make sure the wrench is slowly
moving for the whole time the screw is being tightened. Only
stop moving it when it triggers or reaches the desired
setting. This means that the screw is being set using
kinetic friction. If the wrench stops and starts, the force
needed to overcome it is static friction and is greater. An
underset torque setting will likely be produced. Release it
half a turn and start again. To test whether you are
producing consistent results check the final position of the
head of the screw. The head should show little change in
position relative to the stock each time it is tightened up.
When tightening up a screw to a torque setting, what you are
trying to do is to tension and stretch the screw by the same
amount each time. Taking these precautions will improve
your chance of doing this.
Ross Mason
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my thune jacket is currently causing me great problems because it is
riding up on my back and pushing my hat off.
my buttons are fastend all up and to a tight setting
please help
batty
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Batty wrote:
>
> my thune jacket is currently causing me great problems because it is
> riding up on my back and pushing my hat off.
>
> my buttons are fastend all up and to a tight setting
I went through something similar a while back, to the point where I got
my new jacket made with a deepened neck at the back so it didn't dig
into the back of my head.....so here goes.
(I'm assuming you're right-handed, and I apologise in advance
if any part of this is teaching you to suck eggs :-))
If things are working correctly, your jacket and body should stay
together (no sh*t, Sherlock, as they say).
Once you get down, the jacket is held down by you lying on top of it,
and finds it difficult to move backwards because your left elbow has
it pinned down; it can only ride upwards.
The reason it does so is because you're moving position inside it;
if you're shooting on Gehmann boxes, this is unlikely in the short
term, as once you're set up on aim, you shouldn't be moving about.
However, if you're shooting three-card system, or ten-bull targets
indoors, you'll naturally shuffle a little bit while moving around
the target. The jacket will stick to the mat, and you'll shuffle
backwards inside the jacket. Hence "riding up". As the jacket gets
less rigid along the back (with age) this comes more easily.
The cure? make sure that when you shift backwards to raise the position,
that you either lift yourself enough that the jacket comes with you,
or....roll over slightly to your left, lift yourself slightly on your
left knee / left elbow, reach under yourself to grab the bottom left
hand front of your jacket, and pull it downwards to pull the jacket into
the correct place.
Any prone position will "decay" away from your ideal; sometimes because
you're moving between targets, sometimes because you roll around when
reloading and closing the bolt.
The first time I shot my current PB (ummm....quite a good one), I was
in a phase of "not doing the jacket up when prone" after a weeks'
coaching with Alister Allan; I do the jacket up now, but it's mainly
because I shoot on the cold frozen ranges of the North...ie Aberdeen.
[Editor - and a second email clarifying some questions of mine on what he just said above...]
A group of us spent a week training with Alister in Wiesbaden, about
four years ago. One of our concerns was overheating, as the major (to us)
competition coming up (Commonwealth Games) was to be held in Malaysia.
Anyway, one of his suggestions, which I tried out, was to shoot with the
jacket completely undone.
Essentially, when you get into position, you reach under yourself, and
pull the bottom left front corner of the jacket down and across to pull
the jacket taut. Your body then pins it in position. It seemed to work
quite well if shooting at the same target (wire changers, boxes,
electronic targetry) but I had to work hard if moving the point of aim
around a lot (three-card system, or indoor targetry).
I've since changed back to shooting prone with all the buttons done up, but
it's because of the opposite problem; shooting in Aberdeen in May, or in
the new 50m range at Bisley (both cold concrete floors, sheltered from the
sun) is quite cold. I want to retain heat, not lose it through my front,
and having the jacket done up doesn't seem to cause any problems.
Apocryphal note: Aberdeen (at 57 degrees North) is further north than
either Moscow, or the Aleutian Islands. Thankyou, the Gulf Stream and
North Atlantic Drift :-)
Hope this helps, and congratulations on your 200/200!
Martin Sinclair (aka PSKperson)
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Just read all the viewpoints on the 1900 series versus the 2000 series.
Our team members learned also that rifle tubes have to be kept clean or
performance will be affected. Also, the supersonic/subsonic thing is
absolutely true with the short barrel rifles - testing at sea level and then
competing in Mexico City is going to cause you problems!
In the BIG PICTURE,
When you walk down the firing line at a major competition you see rifles
that look the same for the most part, but if you look closely you will see
small or semi-small alterations or improvements to equipment that are done
for a particular reason. The fact is, the shooter has identified a problem
and has then made a physical change to eliminate the problem. it could be
due to the shooters build, or particular position characteristics,etc. The
fact is, the shooter has put a lot of thought into identifying the problem
and then deciding there is a way to solve it. The shooter did not throw the
gun away and buy a different brand, did he? he altered something for a
BETTER FIT!
To summarize, what i am saying is that if you are fairly new to the sport,
it doesn't matter what gun you buy. It will always shoot better than you,
until you get to the point where you can identify it's shortcomings. Until
then, you will have to do a lot of hard work and practice and thinking to
get to the point where you can tell your rifle 'You are a piece of crap!'.
Shooters at the higher level of competition are looking for rifles and
ammunition which give us a margin of error that is as great as possible.
It's like insurance against bad technique. For instance, the better the
rifle shoots, the more wind changes we can miss, the more triggers we can
slap, the more shots we can overhold, without losing a point. After all, we
know we are human and are going to make mistakes. But the rifle will not do
it for a shooter who doesn't know what he is doing. The difference between
shooting 1100 and 1110 3-p isn't going to make much of a difference in the
standings. The difference between 595 and 597 WILL!
So, for the shooter still climbing up in scores, I'd recommend getting a
good price, or a rifle that hasn't been used much, as more important than
which model is best.
Wayne Sorensen
Canadian Shooting Team
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: Dear Zenni,
: i wonder if my last message got posted. Forgive me, I don't know much
about shooting. I just wanted to clarify a few facts.
: 1) Is he the Junior World Record Holder??
: 2)HE won bronze at Munich?Is that a big achievement?
: 3)His score at Munich was 597, Is it world class? Can this type of scores
be compared to Olympic standard?
: Are u an indian shooter??Where do u live?
: REGARDS
: RAYMOND SMITH
Raymond, Each shooting athlete, No all athletes are their own competitors.
At any given competition you will find many athletes competiting but who are
the competiting against....? They are competiting against themselves and no
one else. Those who win do so because they are capable of using an athletic
technique that eliminates all or most of the individual errors in athletic
technique. So any winner in any given competition has shown athletic
excellence by the process of eliminating as many errors in technique during
any given competition entered...
The perfect bull eyes or 10.9's is the physical evidence that a given
athlete has eliminated all errors that would otherwise preclude the receipt
of the 10.9 or Perfect Bull's-eyes.
So you see that the best air rifle or pistol shooting athlete is YOU.
"His score at Munich was 597, Is it world class? Can this type of scores be
compared to Olympic standard?"
The answers No. The score of 597 cannot be compared with some Olympic
standard. The score of 597 stands of the simple fact that the athlete was
very successful in eliminating as many errors in technique to achieve that
level. The score is to be evaluated against the fact that the athlete lost
3 points due to three errors of some sort in technical implementation of his
shooting technique. In this the evaluative process would of course require
the reviewer to look at all shots fired to determine the degree of
excellence in performance by the athlete. By counting the targets that fail
to indicate a perfect bull's-eye will indicate the number of errors in
shooting technique.
Typically such errors can be eliminated during mental practice with
dryfiring training prior to the shooting competition.
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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I ran across this on a Hipower site and thought I`d pass it on.
T. C. at [email protected] has a Anschutz 2012L ( Left Hand ) and some
gear for sale asking $1500 + shipping has had about 700rnd fired
through it. Lets face it good Left Handed rifles are few and far
between. Good Luck Kazan Mohrs
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End of UIT Mailing List #21
Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page -
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
