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In this issue:
Re: Triangular aperatures
Re: Bore cleaning
Shilen barrels
FWB 2602 or Anschutz?
Anschutz 1900 or 2000 series?
Re: Anschutz 1900 or 2000 series?
Re: Anschutz 1900 or 2000 series?
Re: Anschutz 1900 or 2000 series?
Re: Anschutz 1900 or 2000 series?
Long or short barrel?
Re: Long or short barrel?
Re: Long or short barrel?
Re: Long or short barrel?
Stuff for sale list
Malcolm Cooper dies
Looking for 1813/1913 stock
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Jason Knight,
Here is some info I picked up about the triangular apertures. They are
actually developed for older shooter, because its supposed to be easier to
center the circle in a triangle (with 3 points of contact, or white) than it
is to center it in a circle. I have seen shooters shoot with them and one I
talked too said that he is in the habit of shooting circular appatures. I was
however reading a news letter from center shot sports (www.centershot.com)
that said they now carry them. they are a little more expensive than the
circular but if you don't like them, you can exchange them. Sizes range from
3.0 to 4.7 and they come in sets or individual.
-Ross Miller
[email protected]
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Cleaning:
I'm a benchrester and 3P shooter. Having shot both BR-50 and ARA now for 7 years I have found my cleaning method has changed over the years. Currently I run two patches of Shooter Choice Lead Remover through my Shilen barrel. Then 6 strokes of a bronze brush that has SCLR on it. Then 2 dry patches. A bore scope shows all traces of lead are gone. I do this every 40 - 50 rounds or every target. I do not follow this process with my 3P gun. At the start of the next target I shoot 5 shots to season the barrel with bullet lube. By the way I use Lapua Midas L. Then 5 - 8 shots on the sighter before starting the 25 record shots. Occasionally I go back to the sighter during the record string. We are given 20 minutes. The reason I do not do this with my 3P gun is the 15 shots it needs to season the barrel after cleaning. Now every gun needs a different number of shots for accuracy to return after through cleaning. Mine just takes to many with anything I've tried. So what I do is my last practice session before a match I clean after practice. Then shoot 15 shots through the gun and go home. Cleaning process can change depending on the ammo used and the barrel. Most barrels lead up far to quickly with Federal UM. Many do not lead with Eley 10X. The only way a shooter can know about their own gun is to use a bore scope. And after a thorough cleaning, test fire your rifle from a good bench rest to see how many rounds it takes to season and become accurate. Then continue shooting to see how many rounds before accuracy deteriorates. There is a reamer device made for about $20 for cleaning lead from the throat. But some tight match chambers it will not fit. Also, cleaning can wear a bore out as much as shooting. Usually a bore wears right in front of the chamber at 6 o'clock from ammo. If the wear shows anywhere else its probably from the cleaning rod rubbing. Use a bore guide. I would say many of the old timers are right about cleaning wearing barrels faster than shooting. But it depends how accurate you want your gun to be and how much care is used cleaning. Wipe the rod frequently with a rag. Another question, are Shilen barrels hand lapped? Yes. But one of two I just had installed was sent back to Shilen to view after it was installed. They relapped it and it shoots great. Shilen always works well with shooters. I do not know how easy it would be to remove lead if too much is allowed to build up over say 500 rounds without cleaning. It might take much more effort. ... Rich
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[Editor - Nick, Shilen barrels are not hand-lapped? How many rounds did you
have in the barrel that had the blemish in front of the chamber? Several of
our old Anschutz do have that but several don't. Oddly, the best shooting
rifle (for the ammo we use) of the 13 is the oldest one (1966) and does
have a blemish.]
The rifle I rebarreled was a used Walther GX1 I bought on
consignment from Neal Johnson, so I don't know how many rounds it
had through it. I replaced the barrel instead of setting it back
because I wasn't sure if the material the barrel was made from
wasn't prone to wear. The rifle didn't appear to have had a lot of
use when I recieved it and I only shot a few thousand rounds
through it before I discovered the barrel was shot out.
The GX1 with the blemished barrel shot the best five shot groups
I have ever seen in the first 30 shots after cleaning. Groups that
a .22 bullet would catch in. I think I still have the targets from
that testing. But after 30 shots things went bad. I learned from
this that a gun may shot well for a certain number of shots, but
then go bad. I don't know how the top shooters do it, but I
believe if one wants to truly know if a gun will perform through a
course of fire, it must be tested for the number of shots in a
course of fire. I have seen a rifle start out well, then the
groups loosen up for a number of shots, and then the groups
tighten up again.
Shilen barrels are hand lapped to exact precision by Shilen. When
I went to lap the barrel, the slug for lapping got caught on a
burr at the front edge of the chamber when I first tried to push
it all the way through the barrel. I believe the burr came from
the reamer or the technique I used for chambering the rifle. The
lapping removed the burr and the rifle has performed exceptionally
ever since.
Nick Priddy
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Hi,
I am curious about the new FWB-2602 free rifle. I know the previous model
2000 wasn't very popular. Is anybody using 2602 on International level? In
10M I prefer P70 over 2002. Should I just stick with Anschutz in small bore?
Thank you,
Vlad Berchanskiy
[Editor - Sonja Pfeilschifter uses a LH 2602 sport model. I'm sure there are others
but I haven't seen many pics of smallbore matches where you can pick out
which gun is in use. Anschutz definitely dominates the market.]
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Hello,
I'm looking to purchase a new free rifle. It will be an Anchutz due to
local availability. For the most part I have decided on the alu stock
and short barrel (with bloop tube) but I'm uncertain as to whether or
not the action should be a 1900 series or the newer 4-bolt. The local
experts nudge me towards a 1900 series because the 2000 series ones are
purportedly difficult to get to shoot well due to ammo sensitivity. Is
this a common problem or just an individual rifle problem (local example
of one, in a wooden stock pre-dating alu)?
What is the list.wisdom on this?
Kind regards,
Mike
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Mike,
I really don't know if this will help you, but I have a 1813 and a
2013. My first Free rifle was the 1813 and I have shot with it for about 2
years. I bought the gun used from a boy scout club in AZ. First off, the gun
was an atrocity when I saw it. the stock looked like it had been run over by
a semi and the trigger was missing parts (if you ever plan to get a used gun,
insist that they send you a picture and that you can return it). Recently my
father has picked up the sport and for fathers day we bought him a used
(non-club) 2013. We know the owner and this was one of the first 2013 in the
states. Other that the guns Anschutz sticker coming of, its in real good
condition. As for the actions, What I notice is that the 2000 series were
intended for quick barrel changing (or at least they do so) and for quicker
lock time. Now, for the way it shoots, I know 3 people that shoot 2000 series
with the shot barrel, and they will knock your socks off. I've seen them
shoot groups that a dime could cover. although I have heard that the shorts
do not shoot but I have yet too see one. Another thing, look at the
Olympians, most are using 2000 series.
Hope this helps,
Ross Miller
[email protected]
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If you look back a month or so, you'll see my thread on this. I've also
heard from many who have had quite a challenge getting a 2000 action to
shoot. However, if you can get it to shoot they shoot really well.
If I were to buy one, I'd get a 1900 because I don't shoot a great deal
(unfortunately) and don't have the time to fight with it. However, I'm
still on the fence because they don't make a true LH AL stock just for the
1900 yet (if ever). You must use the 2000 stock with an adapter plate so
you have 6 screws to have to mess with to find the right torque settings on.
The Editor
Michael Ray
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Hi Michael, Edgar, Ross
Yes, I read that earlier thread about the 2000's before I placed my inquiry on
the list. The discussion at that time did not directly compare the round (1900)
and the square (2000) actions just expressed some concerns about possible
problems with the newer actions.
In other discussions that I've had with shooters on this question the point has
come to my notice that the shooters that have to do careful ammo selection for
their 2000 series actions also seem to be the ones with short barrels. The
thought here is that the bullet is exiting the short barrel at or near to
supersonic. Whereas if the same ammo was fired through a long barrel it would
be further away from supersonic. If this is the case then what the ammo
selection is doing is choosing ammo that is subsonic. I have never
chronographed smallbore ammo so I don't know the MV other than what is printed
on the box. Any thoughts on this premise?
Michael, I can appreciate that using an adapter plate would certainly add some
additional uncertainty into the mix. Not having seen one of the alu rifles in
pieces I wonder if it would be possible to have the stock machined & drilled so
that a LH 1900 action could be bolted to it directly without the intervening
adapter?
Mike
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>In other discussions that I've had with shooters on this question the
>point has
>come to my notice that the shooters that have to do careful ammo selection for
>their 2000 series actions also seem to be the ones with short barrels. The
>thought here is that the bullet is exiting the short barrel at or near to
>supersonic. Whereas if the same ammo was fired through a long barrel it would
>be further away from supersonic. If this is the case then what the ammo
>selection is doing is choosing ammo that is subsonic. I have never
>chronographed smallbore ammo so I don't know the MV other than what is printed
>on the box. Any thoughts on this premise?
An interesting point. Many brands of ammo are near the limit anyway
(1140fps at sea level?), depending upon temp & humidity. Plus the fact that
even lots of top brands like Tenex will vary up to 50fps between lots.
Perhaps a bigger factor is that the shorter barrels are not as close to the
ideal length so as not to have adverse harmonics effects (see prior
discussion on tuners). Thus, the problem may be finding a lot with velocity
high or low enough. Just a thought.
>Michael, I can appreciate that using an adapter plate would certainly add some
>additional uncertainty into the mix. Not having seen one of the alu rifles in
>pieces I wonder if it would be possible to have the stock machined &
>drilled so that a LH 1900 action could be bolted to it directly without the intervening
>adapter?
I doubt it. The 2000 series requires much more material to be removed from
the stock than the 1900.
The Editor
Michael Ray
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Hi. From Cali Colombia.
I have a question. Which barrel is better? Long or Short barrel (Smallbore)
Warm regards
EDGAR HUMBERTO CAMPOS GOMEZ
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EDGAR,
Once again, I just seem to voice my mind and see if it helps. I have
both a long and short barrel gun (although one is a 1813 and one a 2013). The
long barrel I know will shoot better than I can, with groups the size of the
UIT 10 ring. However, on my 2013, I have heard of people with the short
barrel have a REALLY hard time making them shoot. Again, I have never met one
who has (I know three others that shoot 2000 shorts) had a problem. They all
seem to say, find a good ammo/torque setting and shoot. They all shoot quite
well and have no complaints, in fact if you would like a recommendation, I'll
email them.
Hope it helps,
Ross Miller
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Some discussions have a repetitive nature in that they always resurface
every once in a while and then submerge again. AMU made a lengthy study of
this matter of bullet speed. The some total I believe is that as long as
the bullet remains subsonic every thing is OK but let it go into supersonic
and back again it is any ones guess where the impact will be. It seems the
1140fps at sea level?), depending upon temp & humidity is the true measure
but the short barrel would present a major risk to the shooting athletes
ability to hit the bull as sighted. A bullet variance due to powder
variance and so forth, the long barrel would be the better choice
considering ballistics. However, there are some who will find the long
barrel to heavy over the short and they will champion the short barrel.
This is sucker play to eliminate any other shooting athletes during
competition because of the high probability of risk to bullet failure in
flight to the target.
The one factor that is most important to every shooting athlete, Each
shooting athlete is their own personal competitor as there is no one else.
The shooting athlete will win or lose depending upon the athletes technique
during the competition phase. This technique presupposes the shooting
athlete has eliminated all errors in shooting technique. The simple fact
is the shooting athlete will win not because of highscore but by being the
athlete who has eliminated all error in technique during any given
competition. A case of the World Cup competitions the last week. We note
that the winner of the 50 meter 3P did so because he above all was able to
concisely eliminate all errors from his shooting technique. This includes
using the correct equipment that fails to put the shooting athlete efforts
at risk during the shooing competition.
"look at the men 3-P finals in Milan. Jason Parker went from 6th to 1st
because almost everybody else made at least one *major* mistake or technical
error. "
See what I am talking about...
Good Shooting yu all...
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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Ammo is at its best maxspeed in short barrel, some will feel they need the
placebo of the bloop tube. The short barrel does not add enough resistance
for slowing the bullet to the correct FPS. This high speed and due to the
inaccuracy of manufacturing makes it impossible to correctly judge the
bullets ability to hit the intended point of impact. This is a risk the
athlete should not be asked to accept. Bloop tubes accomplish nothing but
taking money for something that does nothing for improving the accuracy of
the rifle.
The long barrel provided the correct amount of resistance to the bullet in
its movement, impart the correct spin in stabilizing the bullet in flight
and provides the correct eye focusing distance for accuracy during the
shooters. The long barrel is the normally designed barrel for the rifle.
The short barrel, I believe, was or is for the moving target rifle so that a
swing can be accomplished with greater ease and precision. Sighting in
moving target is accomplished with a scope is it not...The barrel length is
not required for sighting distance. The long barrel allows the full burning
of the powder before the bullet leaves the barrel. It is questionable if
this is possible with the short barrel.
Any ways, you should check this out with a knowledgeable gunsmith to make
sure about the ballistics.
At 02:34 PM 6/8/01, you wrote:
>In other discussions that I've had with shooters on this question the
>point has
>come to my notice that the shooters that have to do careful ammo selection for
>their 2000 series actions also seem to be the ones with short barrels. The
>thought here is that the bullet is exiting the short barrel at or near to
>supersonic. Whereas if the same ammo was fired through a long barrel it would
>be further away from supersonic. If this is the case then what the ammo
>selection is doing is choosing ammo that is subsonic. I have never
>chronographer smallbore ammo so I don't know the MV other than what is printed
>on the box. Any thoughts on this premise?
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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Ladies and Germs!
Here is the May edition of "Stuff for Sale." Yes, I know it's a few days
late.
Just a reminder that this list, updated much more often, can be found on the
Washington smallbore web site: http://members.aol.com/washsmallbore.
Happy haggling!
John Crossman
Steilacoom
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It is with profound regret that I pass on the news that Malcolm
Cooper died Saturday evening at home, after a year long fight against
cancer, at the age of 50.
As most of us know, he was a multi Gold Medalist for GB, both in
Smallbore and 300 metre 3 position shooting in Olympic and World
Championships over many years, as well as the person who gave birth
to Accuracy International Ltd.
I feel sure that all fellow listers will wish to echo my deepest
regrets in rendering their sympathy to his wife Sarah, as well as to
those of us who knew him.
RIP.
--
Laurie Ingram
<http://www.topcorp1.com/top.html>
_______________________________________________
Fullbore mailing list
[email protected]
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To All:
I am looking for an Anschutz 1813 or 1913 stock. Please contact me at
[email protected] or 847 662 4034 days. Thank you, David.
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End of UIT Mailing List #20
Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page -
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
