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In this issue:
Re: 2-stage triggers / 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Thanks! (Re: 1913 bedding problems?)
Barrel & ammo testing
Bore cleaning
Re: Bore cleaning
Re: Bore cleaning
Re: Bore cleaning
FWB AL stock
My Bedding Story
Walther rifle opinions
Mental training report
New Portuguese site
Milan WC web address
Triangular aperatures
New ISSF World Ranking system
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Re: Two Stage Triggers
With a light trigger the first stage of a two stage trigger works
well for positioning the finger on the trigger without
accidentally discharging the rifle. That is what I always imagined
it was for. There is also an additional benefit of having a two
stage trigger. I shot a high power match last summer with an AR15
with a two stage trigger. A 3 lb. trigger is required. I thought
there was no way I could shoot a 3 lb. trigger since I have shot
nothing but the best light triggers all my life. Anytime I tried a
heavy trigger it was all I could do to keep from jerking the rifle
off the target. The first stage of the two stage trigger on the
AR15 felt like it had about 2.5 lbs. to pull it. If the second
stage took 3 lbs. of pull, the net difference then would be about
8 ounces. Shooting that AR15 with a 3 lb. two stage trigger felt
like shooting the light triggers I normally shoot. Almost all the
pressure was on the trigger as a acquired the ten ring and all I
had to do was put a slight more pressure on the trigger to fire
the rifle. The two stage trigger gives the opportunity to have a
very light trigger (second stage pull less first stage pull)
without compromising safety.
Re: 1913 Bedding Problems?
The first thing I would check is the condition of the rifling just
ahead of the chamber. I suffered the same thing in 1997. I was
preparing to go to the U.S. Nationals and my scores kept falling
even though I knew I had good ammo. Three weeks before the
Competition I benched the rifle because my scores kept going down
even though my positions seemed to be more solid than ever. I
thoroughly cleaned the rifle and after 30 shots the groups opened
up to the size of the 9 ring. Upon cleaning and inspecting the
barrel I discovered there was a depression (no rifling) in the
bottom half of the barrel just ahead of the chamber. I canceled
that year and rebarreled the rifle.
I saw a bedding job Neal Johnson did once. The fiberglass bedding
extended to about one inch out under the barrel. When I fiberglass
bedded my Walther, I did the same. I fired dozens of five shot
groups from a machine rest with the bedding this way. I got some
good groups, but it wasn't quit what I was looking for. I cut the
bedding out so it didn't touch the barrel. After many dozen more
five shot groups from the machine rest, I saw no difference. In
the end I finally achieved the groups I wanted by lapping the
barrel.
Nick Priddy
[Editor - Nick, Shilen barrels are not hand-lapped? How many rounds did you
have in the barrel that had the blemish in front of the chamber? Several of
our old Anschutz do have that but several don't. Oddly, the best shooting
rifle (for the ammo we use) of the 13 is the oldest one (1966) and does
have a blemish.]
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Dear Usman,
See if you can test fire the gun in a vise. If it is the gun, the bedding would be the last thing I'll look at. If the gun was shooting good before, then something changed to make it shoot bad. The bedding is normally stable unless it is subjected to different humidity or conditions that will shrink or swell the wood. I assume you check your torque before each practice and match. So it can't be the torque. The ammo shoots well so its not the ammo. Are the sights consistant? This can be verified by a dial indicator. Is the trigger consistant? It might need a cleaning.
But the first thing I'll check is the barrel. 1. It could be shot out. How many rounds have gone through the barrel? 2. There could be some leading in the barrel. Try using RemClean or JB Barrel Compound. 3. Maybe just a good cleaning. How to clean or not to clean is another can of worms.
Good luck,
Alan Tokumura
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Dear Mike,
I would like to thank everybody who has given suggestions and ideas on the bedding problems. It has been a fantastic source of encouragement. Unfortunately some of the suggestions we can�t do out here as there is no one who can re-bed the stock or is technically knowledgeable about it. But in any case it has started a process by which I can start to isolate the problem.
Once again thank you everybody and especially you Chet who I think has had the maximum say on the issue.
Have fun shooting!
Usman
(Pakistan)
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I have been into the JGA testing range on a number of occasions ( I import JGA to Australia).
They test with a range of brands of ammo, whatever ammo produces the best group is what is used to provide the test group with a new rifle.
They have many cartons of various batch lots from Lapua, Eley, RWS & Fiochi etc.
Last time I visited a series of 10 shot groups was fired from each barreled action from a machine rest, when a satisfactory group is achieved (on a blank card ) a 10 mm diameter rubber stamped line was applied to the group then the card was applied to the instruction manual.
The difference between batches of ammo was quite stark, test your barrel & ammo combination to get it right, the optimum batches produced very tight groups.
The reject batches you would not want to know about but you can easily get a batch that does not suit your rifle but works perfectly in another.
I have seen it at both JGA & FWB factories under absolutely optimum conditions.
Graeme Forbes
[Editor - I had been told on several occasions they use RWS ammo since they are so close. They
go through a lot of trouble and expense if they fire several groups of different brands to find the best group. I'll find out for myself in Oct when I visit them.]
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The AMU cleans there rifles after every 40 shot match. ( Anschutz teaches to
clean the rifle after every match) I do not go that far. I found that my
rifle will shot well with 200 plus round without cleaning, but before 300
rounds it will not shoot as well.
Why should you clean your rifle? Store your rifle uncleaned that the residue
can attract moisture. That can not be a good thing. 2nd thing to think about
is that the powder left in the rifle when the next shot is fired can become
like sand paper cutting in to the barrel life
Bill Strumski
[Editor - If I wasn't going to shoot for a while then, yes, I would clean
my barrel. Your second point I don't find a valid argument unless you clean
between every shot or every few shots. Saying that you save your barrel
life by cleaning this residue out 1/40 of the time at best case (after
every 40 shot match) is unlikely. I'll give you that it may add 1/40 to it,
but I'd like to know the research that shows you get more than that.]
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Re the Cleaning business.
Recently I replaced my old 15 year (approx 20,000 round) barrel with a 150 round
one. Anschutz 1911. I now clean this one - regular!
At the 2001 Nationals we all traipsed along to out favourite gunsmith who
promptly demonstrated with his bore scope the leading that occurs in rimfire
barrels. I was stunned.
The killer place seems to be in the breech between the end of the cartridge and
the beginning of the rifling. A thin smear of lead builds up incredibly quickly.
When we first saw it it looked like someone had literally plastered lead along
this part of the barrel. He then proceeded to demonstrated how to clean it out.
I went home and luckily for me I have discovered a bore scope close to home. I
borrowed it and carried it around for a couple of weeks to watch the build up of
lead. It starts out as a thin ring at the end of the cartridge and slowly builds
up. It was obvious after 20 shots. The ring just seemed to get bigger. After
about 60 shots the ring started to "turn over". That is, I think it was starting
the smearing process. I cleaned it then.
I now clean it every 60 shots now and have to admit that I can tell that after a
good shot is let go it burys it in the middle!
His recommended cleaning process? A pad of lead remover on an old bronze brush
and worked back and forth in the first few cms or so of the breech. Comes up
clean as a whistle. What got me was that after 100's of rounds, "normal"
cleaning did not remove this lead as it was firmly attached.
This leading process was published about a couple of years back in Precision
Shooting. Apparently Benchies know all about it and use a reamer (!!) during
their shooting to clear the lead out after every 5 to 10 shots!!!
Ross Mason
PS I was also stunned at how nice the rest of the barrel was after all those
rounds in it. The breech end was certainly pitted but from 100mm or so it was
grey and smooth. The rifling was still very distinct.
[Editor - Again, I don't want to get into a shouting contest over how you
should clean your barrel. I stand firm in my opinion that if your accuracy
doesn't degrade over time, there is no need to clean unless you are not
going to shoot for a while. For some accuracy will definitely degrade and
they will be doing themselves a disservice if they do not clean regularly.
Some ammo (eg, Federal) is known to have significant leading problems. Some
ammo (eg, Eley) has very little leading problems. It is up to the
individual to determine what the cleaning regimen for each of his barrels
is or to just clean them religiously anyway like the USAMU does.
I have been following one of the better benchrest forums since January and
cleaning has come up many times from several "newbies". The "old-timers"
(some of them gunsmiths as well) seem to be split down the middle as to
whether to clean religiously or only as necessary. I've never once heard
any of them mentioning use of a reamer though. The most rigorous just use a
good guide, rod and brush with various solutions.]
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I clean my .22 Anschutz after every match and training with the VFG
felt tips system, but without any oil or other fluid cleaner.
I just like to get rid of the powder residue to prevent it from
attracting moisture.
Does anyone see reasons to clean more thorough to get rid of lead and/
or carbon? I hear .22 bench resters clean their chambers and barrels
so that there is no lead or carbon left.
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> Bill Strumski wrote:
>
> The AMU cleans their rifles after every 40 shot match. ( Anschutz teaches to
> clean the rifle after every match) I do not go that far. I found that my
> rifle will shot well with 200 plus round without cleaning, but before 300
> rounds it will not shoot as well.
It varies with the ammunition used. A friend, who has won the British
Championships before now, and who used Eley, hardly (if ever) cleaned his
rifle. Without ill effect.
When he started using Lapua (Eley was going through a bad quality patch) he
found that his group sizes increased after a couple of hundred shots,
unless he cleaned his rifle.
I would say that Lapua is a "dirtier" ammunition than Eley; test this by
looking at the patches after firing an equal number of each nature.
However, this doesn't have any effect upon the accuracy of the ammunition.
On testing at the Eley facility, my selected Lapua batch performed as well
as the best that Eley had to offer.
Martin Sinclair
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Just to confirm what Martin Sinclair said, Feinwerkbeau Ali stock does has a teflon tape that extends about a half inch past either side of the bedding bolts , have been using the red rifle for six months now, lovely rifle, pity they only have right handed sights even though they make true leftie rifles...............
Regards,
Bob Mallet.
Jersey Smallbore
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Dear List:
I have an old Anshutz Match 54, I think. I got it in an old Al Freeland Winchester 52 free rifle blank. The gun shot well but I located an early 54 stock cheap. So I purchased it and put it in the stock. The bedding was BAD. Stock screws coming loose in the middle of a match. Always having to re tighten between stages of a full course. I finally shot the barrel out. Last year during the summer I had it completely rebuilt basically. I installed a 1913 2 stage trigger. Had an adjustable cheek piece installed. I had a new Lilja custom made 20 inch barrel installed ( I highly recommend them. They are just unreal a real work of the barrel makers art.). I had a bloop tube made and put new riser blocks on.
Now for the fun part. I had it re bedded at a local PA rifle shop ( a well known custom rifle maker's shop). They opened the screw holes and poured pillars with Bisonite. They then bedded the whole action and an inch in front of the action on the barrel. They used regular bedding compound on the action. I got the rifle together 1 1/2 weeks before the fall league season opened here. I used SK standard rifle match ammo as last from last year. I only had to go down 8 clicks in elevation from last years zero! The gun will literally go week to week out of the box, no sighters, and shoot centers( if I don't screw up). It is totally reliable. You shoot in the same light you do not have to make adjustments in the sights. This system works! If you need to bed I suggest using the poured pillar method. I apologize for the long missive but I thought if the whole story was told it would help listers understand just how well this system works.
Regards Mark Shuman
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This summer St. Louis University High School will purchase precision air rifles for its rifle team and entry level target rifles for its freshman shooters. Does anyone have any information and/or experience with the Walther LG 200 air rifle and the KK Club Sport Rifle. We'd like accuracy and reliability comparable to the Anschutz and Feinwerkbau from the air rifle and sturdiness and reliability from the KK Sport Rifle.
Mike Barron
[Editor - Walther rifles in general should be of comparable quality and
reliability I think. We've got 3 Walther airguns, an LGM-2 that I got in
97, and 2 LG-210s (ambidextrous), which I got in 99 so we haven't had them
for a long time, but I've not had any trouble with them. Their "normal"
smallbore are fine. The KK100 is new and I have not seen one so I don't
know how it compares to say an Anschutz 1903 or 1907.
The only downside to Walther I'm aware of is they are not really popular in
the US yet so parts and service will not be as easily obtained as it would
be for Anschutz.
If you are considering buying that many rifles, I'd suggest you try to get
an exise tax exemption for your school from the ATF which should save you
close to 10% on the smallbores.]
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Hello every one�This is one of the training or competition reports that I received this week. The report in itself is good training for those able to read the text. In this case, I thought I would give those who wish to make comments on the text. In this case I have included my comments to the shooting athlete. In future, I will place my comments on my web page so those who wish can read my comments to any given athletic report.
OK��here we go�
Hi Chet
Have been doing mental practice daily and live fired regularly since last time.
Need your opinion on this. When I clear my mind from spontaneous thoughts I can now achieve very fine control over the neuromuscular system. I get to QZ and then I can make this happen. I can then hold the Pistol inside the ten, maybe inner ten, for MORE than the 3/4 sec; can even "paint" inside the ten with the front sight with small corrections that I picture. It feels like I'm mentally processing things a lot FASTER than I normally can. Reactions are really fast in this mental state and still I feel very relaxed. And another thing, NOTHING bothers me here; there is just me, the neuromuscular system and the goal. In fact I think it�s impossible to be emotional in this state? Is this the Last Step?
Response: Now, we have noted the Items as indicated above in the competition report and followed by that of a shooting athlete in training. Let us match them up with the actions that occur during this 60-second period of the firing of the one-shot-match including the � of a second QZ~ timing.
Your ability to hold/extend beyond the 3/4 of a second is the fact that you have entered into the realm of direct mental control that in itself continues the muscle set fix condition and is in fact the last step or set/fix. This is a direct interlock between the Non-Dominant Mental Entity (NDME) and the neuromuscular system that includes the autonomic system. Such an interlock was identified by Penn State University in their MRI research as shown on public TV. But the main difference is you have total control over the mental and physical aspect of the shooting technique. This is why you are able to paint the bull. You think it and the neuromuscular system make it happen.... but painting the bull is in fact neuromuscular adjustment to the PBE part of the OSM to the PBE so you paint or adjust to the PBE. Now if you do the x3 reduction then you are shooting the bull of the inner bull, of the inner bull, or the PBE=x3.....!
Go for it Roger.... You got it. You are a full World Class Elite mental shooting athlete...!
Now you understand why and how the different elements work together. You still have a competitor and it is you....!
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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Dear Sir
I am the webmaster of a new shooting site in Portugal and I would like to inform you of the existence of this site, in portuguese language:
www.atorcp.web.pt
the oficial site of ATORCP - Associa��o de Tiro Ol�mpico e de Recreio Cidade do Porto.
Thank you.
Yours faithfully
Luis Bravo Pereira
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The web address for the World Cup results Milano is:
http://wcup2001.nemo.it/
The competition starts 30 May 2001 and that is tomorrow.
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
[Editor - sorry for the delay in getting this out. This WC runs through June 4.]
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Hi there,
I thought i would give you a question you could throw in your monthly newsletter thing. I was curious if anyone has started using the new triangle front apetures yet. If they have given them a shot how did they work? Did they like them better than the standard circular apetures? Thanks
-Jason Knight
[Editor - I have heard of a couple people that have tried them and at least initially they were neutral on them. The theory at least is that it is easier on your eye since there are only 3 points to align rather than an "infinite" amount. However, it is natural for you to center round objects so maybe that would offset the advantage. I haven't seen any research or long term reports on them yet.]
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The ISSF has now implemented a ranking system (similar to other sports) for the top shooters. You can find it at
http://www.issf-shooting.org/Info/worldranking.html
Editor
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End of UIT Mailing List #19
Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
