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In this issue:
Re: Development of New International Shooting Range
Running target info needed
Re: How to get a 2013 to shoot?
1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
Re: 1913 bedding problems? (+ tuners & cleaning)
Re: 1913 bedding problems?
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There is already a fully equipped ISSF range in Malaysia, on the island of Langkawi which may not be all that far from the location mentioned below. It was used for the 1997 Commonwealth Championships, the 1998 Commonwealth Games and I think the 2000 Asian Championships. >From memory it has 60 lanes at 50m, 60 (or 80?) at 10m, many 25m pistol ranges and three shotgun layouts.
Regards
Donald
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I am looking for upto date coaching information in English language for 10m Running Target and 50m Running Boar. So far everything I've found is very out of date.
]Please reply to [email protected]
Many thanks.
Tony Credland
Target Shooting......Sport for All
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I spoke with a .22rf benchrest shooter last week who also complained about the consistency of one of his rifles with the Anschutz 2000 series action. I'm sure his rifle was glass bedded and probably had a barrel by an American maker. He thought that the problem was that the action could be twisted with uneven torque on the action screws and/or uneven bearing of the action in the stock. His solution was to use a little anti-bind grease on the action screws so that he got uniform inch pounds from his torque wrench and then he used a very thin lead tape (.0020) that would compress slightly under the four corners of the action. The tape is used commercially to balance ceiling fans. He said it solved his problem.
--- Michael Barron
--- [email protected]
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Dear Mike,
Can anyone advise how to check for a faulty bedding on an Anschutz 1913?
I mean the original wooden factory stock. Is the receiver supposed to
touch/rest on the wood anywhere? Recently my scores have gone haywire and
inconsistent. I am using Fiochhi Super Match and they are quite good. I was
wondering if it may be the bedding. I opened the stock yesterday. About an
inch from the front of the receiver towards the breech side, the side
where the floating barrel ends and joins the receiver, there is a slight
mark on the wood as though the part of the receiver is resting there. But I
am not sure how to check the bedding. There are not any experts here on
bedding so we don't know. Also are the new Aluminium stocks better in this
respect?
Thanks
Usman
[Editor - I'm no bedding expert, but I can tell you it should touch the
wood. In fact, it has to since there is nothing there to prevent it from
doing so aside from the metal part used for indexing. It should touch over
the full surface though, IMHO. How often do you retorque your action bolts?
Has it gotten much damper or drier recently? How do you know this
particular lot of Fiocchi is good? From what I have heard, the AL stocks
can be even trickier unless you have a professional bedding job done.
Whereas wood will give slightly so there's a much greater chance of solid
contact over the whole action, if there is uneveness in the AL stock, your
action will only contact the high spots. I don't know how prevalent this
is, but it something to look out for.]
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Sounds like the wood stock may be going the oil sponge route on you and this
is not correctable but to use a fiberglass bedding procedure. If the stock
is spongy it is better you buy new stock rather than get involved in fiber
glassing. However if the stock wood is still solid, then fiberglass bedding
is in order to make a better receiver mounting base for the rifle and stock
mating element. Remember the receiver mounting to the stock is the most
important aspect of the rifle or any rifle for that matter. If the bedding
is insecure then the rifle is of no use for precision competition. I agree
with Mike in the moisture level of the wood. Moisture control is a major
factor to the bedding of the receiver group in wood stocks. With a good
fiberglass bedding job this is eliminated as the glass and mounting bolts or
screws mate together and the wood is only an adjunct to the two elements.
Receiver contact is over the whole of the receiver in the stock and about an
inch of the barrel with the remainder of the barrel floating free from the
stock. The barrel must be allowed to float free so the resonating frequency
that is originated by the powder explosion and bullet moving through the
barrel will be allowed to move down the barrel without being effected by any
object or fixture of the rifle.
This is because the vibration or resonating frequency must bleed off at the
muzzle with out forcing the barrel to excessively flex and the resulting
throwing of the bullet out of the natural zero and sight alignment you have
worked so hard for. If the floating barrel makes contact at any point, this
will change the resonating frequency and therewith cause the muzzle to flex
excessively and the result will not be your desired sighting intent.
Dampers have been made to soften but so far not eliminate this natural
problem of shooting. Nor am I sure that it is really necessary as the
vibration may be an asset to the shooting technique and its elimination a
generated problem that has yet to rear its head at the competition shooting
athlete.
Hope this help your understanding.
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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If a normally good rifle is fired with the barrel resting on something hard,
like a tree or some non-sandbag gun rests, it will bounce off the rest and
the shot will be really inaccurate. A soft rest like a sandbag, or a jacket
rolled up or just the shooter's hand between rifle and tree, is much better.
So can the same be true of stocks? Can some rifles set up a vibration
between barrel and aluminum stock that will be the equivalent of leaning
against a hard tree? I could imagine the two long objects, attached only at
the back end, vibrating like a tuning fork. Wood varies from day to day
depending on the humidity, but it also dampens vibrations better than
aluminum.
Has anyone tried putting something between the action and aluminum stock?
For instance, a single thickness of leather to separate metal from metal?
This would smooth out the high spots, and also would offer less transmission
of vibration between barrel and stock. Since the steel screws would still
transmit vibration, you might want to isolate them with rubber washers or
something.
Also there are special vibration damping elastomers, that if placed between
the barrel and the Front end of the stock (where there is normally no
contact), might stop the vibration. Normally contact in this area is
unwanted because if the barrel warps from heat or the stock warps from
humidity then the amount of contact will vary during the day. So what we
want is a material that is sort of a really thick ooze, maybe window
caulking compound or gummy worm candy or a faucet washer, that will stick
tightly between barrel and stock and perhaps maintain a light pressure, will
dampen vibrations, but will move enough to not change pressure when the
small distance varies.
- Benjamin Mcleod
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I don't think the example mr. McLeod uses about the barrel resting on
something hard is a good example for bedding problems.
What happens, in my opinion, when a barrel rests on something hard is
that you alter the recoil reaction of the rifle and thereby change the
direction and distance that the muzzle of the barrel travels as a
reaction of the recoil. This lead to a different point of impact of
the bullet, because the bullet has not left the barrel when the jump
of te muzzle has already begun.
This can be tested easily when you are shooting a smallbore rifle (and
are able to shoot reasonable small groups on 50 meters) : shoot some
5-shot groups on 50 meters like you normally do. Then increase the
pressure of the stock against your shoulder by pulling the stock
against your shoulder with more pressure. Shoot some 5 shot groups
again with the same increased pull force and you will see (like i
have) that your point of impact will drop considerably.
I'am also in the opinion that bedding a smallbore rifle in an alloy
stock needs no special bedding, as long as you buy one from the
reliable alloy stock manufacturers like Anschutz, Keppeler, Walther,
Stopper, Bernd Rucker, and set the torque on the screws to the
manufacturers advise.
We saw the last years 50 m prone Olympics been won with a Keppeler rifle in
alloy stock, in the whole final there were some Anschutz, Walther alloy
stocks used. In my shooting club there are many alloy stocks used (anschutz
and Walther KK200) for Anschutz 1913 systems and none of those had
increased shot group size when testing new ammo compared to the situation
with wooden stocks. At least 9 top shooters changed from wood to alloy over
the last two years. and no complaits whatsoever.
I hope I contributed this way to the good discussions about small bore
rifle shooting i really enjoy these, and hope to get some response on my
opinions here,
sincerely
Sven Alferink
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Benjamin McLeod wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried putting something between the action and aluminum stock?
> For instance, a single thickness of leather to separate metal from metal?
The System Gemini aluminium stocks use two strips of polyurethane tape, one
at each of the bedding bolts. I've been using one of these since 1997, and
it hasn't caused any problems. I replace the tape once every so often, once
it starts to "wrinkle" with age and insertion/removal of the action.
The Feinwerkbau aluminium stocks use a teflon tape, as I understand it.
Martin Sinclair
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Our FWB has a thin strip of "plastic" of similar thinkness (about .5mm) to a plastic milk bottle..it seems to work fine....
Bill Henry
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> I don't think the example mr. McLeod uses about the barrel resting on
> something hard is a good example for bedding problems.
Sven,
I don't think you understand what Mr. McLeod was saying. Your experiement
above, while correct, has nothing to do with his hypothesis because you are
dealing with the stock/action/barrel as a system rather than the stock and
the action/barrel as 2 separate units.
All barrels vibrate when shot because of physics. This is one reason why
match rifles are free floating so the vibrations are free to run back and
forth along the barrel. If you were to place something against the barrel,
it would cause inconsistencies in the vibrations, resulting in errant
shots. One of the major points of testing ammo lots is finding ones that
have a velocity so that the bullet exits the muzzle at the peak or trough
of the wave where movement is at it's minimum. Picture a sine wave. If the
ammo leaves at the zero line, the barrel is moving at it's maximum point.
This is the whole theory behing the stabilizers and tuners that benchrest
people have been using for some time and 3P shooters are just starting to
use. You stick a weight on the end of the barrel (which will alter the
vibrations) and then you move the weight back and forth slightly until your
groups tighten up (indicating you're at a peak or trough).
So what Benjamin was trying to say is, when you fasten the barrel/action
into a really stiff stock like AL, you essentially have a big tuning fork.
Whether the barrel really does vibrate more because the stock is stiffer, I
don't know. It would make sense, but I did forget that they usually supply
tape, plastic, rubber, etc to use between the action and stock, which
should account for a less than perfect mating surface and perhaps "soak up"
some vibrations.
> I'am also in the opinion that bedding a smallbore rifle in an alloy
> stock needs no special bedding, as long as you buy one from the
> reliable alloy stock manufacturers like Anschutz, Keppeler, Walther,
> Stopper, Bernd Rucker, and set the torque on the screws to the
> manufacturers advise.
Aside from the tape, rubber or whatever the maker provides, you're probably
right. Though I've heard of those who were not happy with the performance
of the factory provided system, especially the 2000 series Anschutz.
Michael Ray
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Hi Ben,
There is a lot in what you say on dampening material.
The first item to consider is what type of barrel. Light or heavy.
The ISSF uses a heavy barrel and the frequency is 360 degrees around the
barrel. any dampening on any point will upset this 360 degree movement
pattern. The frequency movement flow is from receiver to muzzle and back
again to receiver omitting that which flowed from the muzzle into ~.
The rifle with the light barrel (field barrel) as commonly sold in the
retail store for hunting and so forth is made to flex. The design is
developed upon the specification that only a minim of rounds are shot
through the barrel in any session (usually 5 rounds or less). The barrel is
light as the hunter must carry the rifle for long periods so the barrel must
fire accurately for 5 rounds or less. This type of barrel is effected most
by frequency vibration and temperature variance which always results in
changes in the zero of the rifle as temperature chances. In the case of
vibration of the 360 degree movement from receiver to muzzle, not variation
is allowed. The frequency movement is started from the receiver though the
barrel by the taper of the barrel at the receiver attachment joint.
On the case of the ISSF heavy barrel the same physical problems apply but
due to the gross circumference of the barrel the flex is held to a minim.
The same frequency is established but the
movement is different. If you use the most sensitive equipment for testing
you will find that the barrel has an external frequency moving up and down
the barrel and the same frequency moving up and down the barrel internal of
the metal barrel. Of course the timing is different because the movement
through mass but they both complement each other. Again it is 360 degree
and nothing must interrupt this vibration movement around the total 360
degrees. In this manner the barrel is always self centering at zero and
the frequency vibration will bleed off at the muzzle before the residue
returns to the receiver group.
For this reason the barrel must in all cases be a floater and not dampened
at any point along its length. If any dampening is attached it must damped
the total 360 degrees or forgotten about.
As the receiver and stock is locked together then they are one with each
other and any padding will eliminate the zero of the rifle. The glass
bedding is solid and hard while being formed to the shape of the receiver
group and therefore is the same size and the mounting bolts lock the
receiver into the stock. By the way if you own a glass bedded rifle NEVER
place any kind of OIL on the glass or allow it between the receiver and
glass bedding. This will totally defeat the purpose of the bedding and its
main functioning.
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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Thanks for explaining about the fork theory, I did not get the point
from Mr. McLeod's story at first. I agree with you and mr. McLeod that
the fork resonance could cause problems. Although the experience with
the people I know do not show worse results with the alloy stocks from
Walther combined with the 1913. But they do not show better accuracy
also.
With the 2013 and especially the short barrel versions i have heard of
some accuracy problems with the wooden stock versions, I do not know
about the 2013 in AL stocks.
Here in the Netherlands general heard opinion under top shooters is
that the older Anschutz systems with serial numbers between 120000 and
180000 are the best action/barrel combinations to be found from
Anschutz.
My 1913 system in Walther KK200 alloy stock has a gasket like material
(looks like the thick paperlike material gaskets are made from for car
engines) between the action and the stock, two patches of it are
located around the holes for the screws and keep the alloy and steel
from the action separated from each other.
I heard about the Winchester/Browning BOSS system for 'barrel tuning'
in high power rifles. That seems to work if I may believe the info
from Browning. If i'am correct you say that smallbore shooters use
such a system also?
Do you know if they really work, if they are allowed according to ISSF
regulations, and were to get info about those systems for anschutz
1913 systems?
Another question that seems to raise a lot of different opinions at
that I do not know what to say about is the Cleaning procedure for
small bore rifles. Some people only clean the inside of the barrel
once a year and others seem to want to get rid of all lead and powder
residue after each use. May I ask what the people in your team
practise?? And what your opinion and that of others is. Maybe I should
put this question on the mailing list?
Sincerely
Sven Alferink
[Editor - I've heard of the BOSS but have not seen one to know how it works. I don't think it acts like the tuners I'm talking about, but I may be wrong. The only true tuner I'm aware of being used by 3P smallbore shooters (in the US) at present is made by Time Precision, which is a combo tuner/bloop tube. It is marketed by T2 Stocks which has a link on my site. Lones Wigger uses one. The smallbore benchrest crowd use a variety of tuners (Hoehn, Fudd, etc) but they do not have provisions for front sights.
As for cleaning, I'm one of those that doesn't want to clean the barrel more than necessary. If I can get away with once a year, so be it. It all depends upon whether your accuracy degrades with the number of rounds shot or not. Some barrel/ammo types do and some don't. Obviously, if your best groups come from a combination that noticeably degrades after a couple hundred rounds, you'll have to clean a lot.]
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Good report Mike,
The rifle is a big tuning fork as you say and the way this is taken care of
is place the barrel into a fixture and fire rounds through barrel as a test
to finding a match of speed and frequency through the barrel. In a
non-gunsmith situation we can only fire rounds through the barrel until we
find one lot that work better than the others. This is a hit or miss basis
as what if none of the above works...?
Truth is upon the lands grove is made inside. We must determine what speed
is involved and the moment of compression as the bullet travels through the
barrel. Then we can design the barrel to match a specific speed and twist to
stabilize the bullet travel through the barrel as well as in flight.
When the lands are cut the depth is also critical. When this is
accomplished then we can say that we have a true barrel that fires a bullet
weighing a specific amount and twisting at a precise rate and therefore
originating the minim amount of frequency vibration upon the bullet passing
through the barrel. Then we have a truly tuned barrel with matching bullets
that the barrel was designed for. So the ammo must be the same brand at
all times and the same amount of powder inside of the casing.
Changing brands will only defeat your intended design and work.
Ansutz does this at manufacture time. They use Eley ammo and the barrels
are designed to fire this ammo.
So if any one must replace a shot out barrel then look hard at the new
barrel and talk with the barrel maker about your needs and wants. Don't
leave it to chance.
Who said that competitive shooting is easy.....?
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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End of UIT Mailing List #18
Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page -
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
