In this issue:
Grades of Eley
Re: Scope for 50m
Re: Scope for 50m
Re: Federal ammo
Re: Federal ammo
Re: Federal ammo
Re: Federal ammo
96 Olympic skeet video
Any pics of V. Letcheva's kneeling?
Re: Quiet Zone timing
Re: Quiet Zone timing
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Your humble Editor again -
Can anyone authoritatively tell me what is the diff between Eley Standard, Target Rifle and Club Xtra (aside from price, of course)? Different bullet shape/composition, powder, priming???
I found several references to Federal leading in some guns and we don't get to clean ours very often so I think I may be better off sticking with an Eley product which doesn't lead. We've been using Tenex for years, but I think that is overkill for 50 feet.
P.S. - I guess I'm the only one who thinks the new Ancshutz 4765 butthook is a waste. <g>
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[Editor - I was unclear about whether Dan was asking about a spotting scope or rifle scope. I assumed he was talking about spotting scope since I don't know of many who use a rifle scope at 50 feet. Sorry if I caused any confusion.]
This is to Dan who asked about a scope. I use an old Litschert 20X scope
for my prone matches, and it works just fine out to 100-yards. I can see
the holes fine. Any higher magnification will magnify any movement you
may have in other positions, if you use a scope for other than prone
matches. I find that this magnified movement drives me crazy, so I never
use a scope in anything other than the NRA 1 or 2-day prone matches.
Hope this helps. Don Williams in Oregon.
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I agree, 20X is plenty of magnification, particularly if one is shooting
positions as well as prone. I use a Redfield 3200 20X. I can easily see
individual shot holes at 50m, and even at 100 yds if the light is right. FWIW,
magnification alone is not the best measure of the quality of a scope (" . . .
or should I look into getting a better scope?" See above.) Greater
magnification without an adequate objective lens will give you a dark image. A
bigger objective means greater weight, more surface area for the wind to act on,
etc. Stick with your 20X, unless you have a specific problem that requires more
power.
Tom
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Recommend you start with less than a case.
I have tried both hi-vel and lo-vel Fed Match in a rifle. In this
particular rifle, the lo-vel B variety seemed to shoot much better.
However, I am sure it depends on the individual rifle more than
anything, try both (and some other brands) and see which works better in
yours. The only thing surprising would be if they both hit the same
vibration pattern with their different velocities. That aside, Federal
developed the hi-vel first because they thought it was better, then
added lo-vel because some shooters were more willing to pay for that
variety. They are equal in quality. The same applies to Lapua Midas, the
two varieties are equal except L is slightly larger diameter than M, so
one will probably work better than the other in your gun.
I mostly shoot pistol. In a semi-auto, I use the hi-vel variety because
it cycles the action better. This would probably also apply to a
semi-auto rifle for Sportsman's Team Challenge events or other purposes.
However, my Free Pistol kicks straight back and I do not like the reflex
it seems to set up in my hand, so I use the lo-vel B variety because it
is more comfortable to shoot. With open sights I can't measure any
difference in accuracy in the pistols.
- Benjamin McLeod
[Editor - reason for a case was simplicity, plus the fact that I have 15 rifles to test. Federal and Eley are the only brands I care to try because I know I can always get them here. I may give CCI a try too but don't like their 100 round boxes.]
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I've used Federal 900B, the subsonic stuff, almost exclusively in my
Walther KK200 since I discovered it. I have tried two bricks of the
supersonic Federal, but only for three-position matches at 50 meters.
I haven't done extensive wind testing, but my group of shooters do lots
of NRA 1600 prone matches, and the generally accepted wisdom (many of
them do ammunition lot testing before buying by the 5000 round case lot)
is that the subsonic versions of Federal and other brands yield less
wind dispersion at 100 yards.
To be fair, no one in our group has done bench rest testing under
controlled conditions, with statistical analysis, and published
results. Therefore, our belief that subsonic is better in the wind may
be considered as just popular opinion.
The Federal may have more lead residue than the Eley, RWS and Lapua I
used to shoot, but with the use of the Bore Snake type bore cleaners, it
just doesn't matter. I use the device between stages and it's so
amazingly efficient, that there's no reason to fear lead buildup. This
device is a weighted parachute cord, followed by braided nylon with
embedded brass brush bristles. One pull through the bore is like using
25-100 separate patches. I'm careful to pull it straight out from the
muzzle, so not to erode the crown. It can be put in a delicate garment
bag and machine washed. I use a 12 gauge version to clean my muzzle
extension tube. They can be found at http://www.uncle-mikes.com/ and
from many other shooting suppliers.
Richard Sproc
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Michael, I use UM1 and have some excellent results, but I should mention that I have also have some of the effects you were talking about. I do believe that UM1 does need to matched to the barrel. When you have a lot that shoots quite well in your barrel, I find that the ammo will shoot right through the wind. I have been to the Federal factory to test my rifle, so I have a excellent lot that prints a sub-ten ring group (10 shots). When I used it at the Olympic trials in Ft. Benning, I was very impressed by how it shot it the wind there. I found it to be very predictable.
Henry Gerow
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Yes when switching from a waxy lube bullet to a mica based lube used on
federal you must clean thoroughly. You should also fire around 20 or so
rounds after cleaning before a match. It seeems to take a lot of rounds to
settle in a barrel with Federal ammo. Many of the people I know find the
slow stuff does shoot better outdoors. They use it for 50 meter and prone
matches with great success. Not much difference indoors at all. My barrel
was pitted severely and fouling was a problem. A new Lilja is going to fix
that. My info comes from talking with people in our league whom all shoot
Federal almost exclusivly. We buy it by cases and sell to the league
members at no proffit. So most take advantage and use it.
I do have a question on ammo. Has anyone out there on your list tried
the new PMC Match ammo? My barrel was junk and I cannot come to a
conclusion on it. Am looking for input on this ammo as well as any input
on RWS Target, the ceeper Lapua or RWS GECO. I want som $2.00 a box ammo
that shoots very well at 50 feet. I do not want to spend $5.00 a box on
Federal 900 to shoot league matches at 50 feet.
On the 900B issue, I was told that the B is better at longer distances. The
reason being that the B starts out subsonic and stays that way to the
target. With standard target ammo the bullet will drop through the sound
barrier before it makes the target. At 50 feet this is not a problem. But
at 50 meters and beyond it is. The drop through the sound barrier is
supposed to buffet the bullet and cause a change in trajectory or
destabelize the bullet some. I am not sure of which or both of these is
going on. Anyway I read this on some obscure blurb from Federal or an
article that Quoted a source at Federal. As usual my brain farted and I
cannot remember where. I hope this helps you in some way.
Mark Shuman
Shamokin PA
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I am interested in buying the 1996 Olympic skeet finals video tape and I can not find it anywhere.
Any idea where to get one????
Please advise, Thanks, Rafael
[email protected]
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I'm looking for some photo of Vessela Letcheva in kneeling position....could help me?
Regards
Eugenio Zampieri
[email protected]
[Editor - I have a few of her standing and 1 in prone, but none in kneeling. Sorry. Does anyone else out there have one?]
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>My doctor has advised me that my heart beat or pulse is around 45 to 48
>during the active shooting athlete mode, which translates to 1.25 seconds of
>QZ~ availability time. A pulse of 45 translates to 1.33 seconds of
>available QZ~ time. So the slower your pulse the longer QZ~ time
>availability you have for the QZ~ time. The 3/4 of a second is an average
>time and is still valid in technique as you said the bullet must be out of
>the barrel before the QZ~ ends and the heart beat occurs. For those who
>experience a heartbeat before the bullet has left the barrel are not
>starting the QZ~ at lung balance time. They deserve the 8's and 9's
>received.
This is interesting, and does not tally with my personal experience
in high-level competition. In the beginning, having read about
autogenics and the rest, my desire was to be in a controlled state
during competition, with a nice slow heartrate. (Being quite fit, my
resting heart rate was 45 or so). When it came to the Commonwealth
Games, and to finals at the Commonwealth Championships, my experience
was that my heart rate went up to nearly 120. This was rather
worrying :-(
Having dropped one place in the Final of the 3x40 in the British
UIT Championships, and as Malcolm Cooper was on the range, I asked
him how he (as a double Olympic Gold medal winner in the event, in
1984 and 1988) had coped with Finals.
His reply was that rather than trying to avoid adrenalin, and its
effect on the body (increased sensitivity to balance and sight,
and speedier reactions) he had welcomed it as an aid to his
shooting; and that while the rifle might appear to be jumping
around, it might well be that it was just an increased awareness
of my normal movement. His advice was to "go for it", accept that
the target would appear to be moving, and to trust ones training
and reactions. View the adrenalin as an advantage, not as a
disadvantage. [Note - I took his advice in the prone final the
next day. It worked well enough]
This tallied with a presentation that Alister Allan (3x40 Bronze
in 1984, Silver and Olympic Record 1988) gave to a group of
Scottish shooters. On asking whether anyone would consider
firing the shot when the target was moving, and receiving
a lot of headshakes, he pointed out that if you go into an
Olympic Final in 1st place, with an Olympic Record, it didn't
matter how "cool" you were, your heart would still be going at
120, and the target would appear to be bouncing around
like a mad thing.
Finally, it is interesting to note that the Mercedes-McLaren
Formula 1 motor racing team were experimenting with Autogenics.
They are reported as having given up on the idea. Having gone
as far as ECG and EEG monitoring of the drivers on the test
track, they discovered that high-level competition produced
completely different physiological reactions from training.
Martin Sinclair
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CONTINUATION OF THE "QUIET ZONE" OR QZ~ TECHNIQUE.
This information with Questions was the result of the UIT List item Vol 4
#21.
The word "REPLY" is the start of my comments about the functional areas
indicated.
Included is the Athletes item as it clearly indicates one of the major
problems and here the SCATT is a device that detected a major reoccurring
problem that few shooter athletes detect during the shooting process in the
physical mode of shooting.
Comments by a shooting athlete.
Seems some athletes have been chasing pulse.
Yes, I discovered the true effect of it (pulse beat) when I finally got onto
a SCATT machine. I could not believe how far the damn muzzle jumped out of
the bull when I saw a pulse beat the first time. Talk about sort out the
hold! While using the SCATT, I was awesomely impressed with some of the
Russian "sample" files that Kugalin and Fedkin put in. The wiggle never left
the inner rings of a 50m target. There were some Air Rifle files where the
wiggle never left the 9 ring! Anyway the upshot was that I learnt very
quickly the advantage of shooting on the "offbeat"....or so I have
previously discovered...the Quiet Zone (QZ~). For many years I had lost
inexplicable shots up and to the left and never could nail the cause. Seeing
the pulse sure sent the message. I was impressed with the consistency of the
movement of the muzzle with pulse, up and around, up and around. The other
nasty is that not only does the shot go in the direction of the muzzle but
at the pulse time it gets thrown out from the center of the target as well!
Just remember that watching the sight picture is watching what the world was
doing about .03 seconds ago. That is how long the visual system (NDME and
Neuromuscular systems) takes to respond to what the eye sees while in taking
snapshots of the sight alignment and the bull. We are forever anticipating
events. It goes for ....dare I say it.... anticipating the shot. That is,
train to use and match the QZ~ and getting the shot away using the logical
sequences instructed in Chapter 7 of the Book.
Reply: The logical timing can be found in the book "The Mental Art of World
Class Competitive Shooting" Chapter 7. The QZ~ or Quiet Zone was detected
by me during mental practice and dryfiring for a National Competition during
1955. While I was experiencing what the SCATT also detected, my question at
the time was what could I do to stop the heart beat movement and wiggles
during sighting and firing sequences in the standing position or all
positions. During a mental practice session the NDME told me what to do and
how to do it. After several more mental practice sessions and with
dryfiring test of the procedure, I found that I could hold the rifle
perfectly quiet and the muscles would lock up for that 3/4 of a second.
This time the QZ~ gave me the ability to use the standing position as if in
the prone position with quietness and stability. During this 3/4 of a
second there was no way that I could miss the PBE unless I just plain messed
up the mental procedure or some physical aspect was incorrectly performed or
set up. During 1955 to 1958, I refined the functioning of the QZ~ and my
knowledge of how it worked or when it refused to work. Also developed the
logical sequences for pulling the trigger automatically as directed by the
NDME.
This is the function that I named the Quiet Zone or QZ~ in 1955. Since
that date I have written many articles on the or about the QZ~ function and
included the information on the Quiet Zone in two books.
Have given many seminars and clinics around the world, which included the
subject of the QZ~. This included instructional period during 1997 for the
US Army AMU International department at Fort Benning, GA and the 1974 World
International Championships in Black Canyon AZ. Cpt Lanny Bassham (USAMU
1974 - 1975 International team) was an attendee of one such coaching session
on the technique of the mental checklist and the use of the QZ~ during this
1974 championship competition. The training on the mental technique takes
about two years of precise mental practice and dryfiring to perfectly
perfect the technique however; the athlete will experience improved results
of the technique in about three weeks after starting the training periods.
CHET,
Just read the comments of Mr. Athlete above on the UIT list regarding QZ~
timing between heartbeats.
The question is: Is it possible to standardize the procedure to an extent
where you know exactly after how many pulse beats after the last exhale at
step 4 the QZ~ will arrive?
Reply: No. This is the domain of the NDME and the NDME will fit the timing
as needed by the mental checklist and lung balance. It is enough that you
understand that the QZ~ is an automatic function and works only with the
autonomic system with timing. You cannot order it or demand it to appear
at any specific time slot but it will appear only as a result of the logical
sequence as determined by the NDME.
The main function of the QZ~ :
1. Quiet the body in preparation for the firing of the rifle or pistol based
upon a precise logical sequence of events (mental checklist) the NDME will
call the QZ~ and the direct the neuromuscular system response with the QZ~
and then trigger pull if the logical events are still current and in
compliance with the mental checklist logical evaluative sequences.
2. The QZ~ is a component of and a logical event, which allows the trigger
to be pulled automatically at the arrival of lung balance and QZ~ checklist
sequences.
3. The QZ~ through the NDME issues commands to the neuromuscular system for
freezing the muscles in a set/fix condition that will stabilize the body
during the QZ~ life period (3/4 of a second). The QZ~ set/fix condition is
the setting of the muscles not in tension or stressful condition but with
just the correct amount of muscle flex to place the muscle into the desired
position and fixing it in position without movement (total body). This
set/fix has the ability to reduce or remove the generation of lactic acid
from the muscle system and thereby preventing the muscle reduction into a
tired or an excessively strained condition. Lactic Acid in any amount
unfavorably affects the brain and the muscular/neuromuscular systems. The
greater the build up of lactic acid the faster you loose control of the
shooting position with concurrent loss of mental control over the shooting
technique.
4. The sequencing of the QZ~ will lock the natural point of aim upon the PBE
and any adjustment required during this QZ~ period will be adjusted by the
NDME through the issuance of instructions. The NDME's ability to achieve
these micro adjustments is based upon the snapshot by the physical eyes view
of the relationship of the eye, rear sight, front sight and black blob. The
NDME works its precision adjustments through the center of mass of each
object viewed by the physical eye. Every object can be fuzzy and not
detract from the over all sighting technique. It is the NDME that issues
instructions to the neuromuscular system and accomplishes the sighting
procedures and not the physical eye as every one is taught in basic
marksmanship training.
Question: I know the QZ~ development is in the domain of the NDME, but how
specific can you be during mental practice when it comes to the precise?
Reply: In mental practice you analyze all respects of the item under
analysis. You review what you want the NDME to accomplish and the time it
is to be accomplished. During analysis you inform the NDME what is correct
and what is incorrect about the procedure or position and then file it into
the memory files for later use by the autonomic system of the NDME. This
is enough, as you cannot do more than that.
If you have told the NDME what you want and how you want it to be performed
and you have practiced dryfiring the sequence before placing it into memory
then you have completed your part of the task. Just stand back from the
Autonomic/NDME and let them do their part as you have instructed. Remember
the NDME goal is to please you in every way and carry out its instructions
as you have indicated during mental practice phase.
Question: Arrival of lung balance and the QZ~? Should I just exhale, place
a general request of the QZ~, recall the MPR of the PBE with intense
concentration and let the trigger is pulled if (that is; when) the foresight
comes to a halt?
Reply: NO. The QZ~ arrives upon the logical completetion of specific
predetermined logical steps that you have instructed the NDME to implement
for the logical achievement of the one-shot match and PBR goal. The QZ~
will arrive naturally if logically correct, the MPR of the PBE is sensed in
the background and is acknowledged as the intended shooting goal to be
accomplished. Every shooting athletes goal on every one-shot match is the
achievement of the PBE.
Question: You see, I want to make use of the NDME precision, but I also want
to make the mental procedure and practice as complete as possible. I believe
there is a fine line between pure non-dominant work and confounding the
non-dominant work through overrunning the mental procedure by issuing
dominant commands in the Dominate mode.
Reply: Your assumptions are correct but with a flaw. The NDME can be
confounded as you indicate by placing to many complex instructions upon its
work. As for the dominant issuing commands, this does not happen, as the
dominant mental entity is passive in these functional sequences. In fact it
is under the direct control by the NDME during the shooting sequences
because of it's tasking for the monitoring with feedback of the external
world for the NDME to respond to such as the snap shot sighting procedure.
The dominant mental entity does not have connections to the neuromuscular
system and therefore must send all external world data information to the
NDME before any instructions can or will be issued. So in effect the
dominant mental entity (DME) data is on quay until the NDME wants or can use
the information provided by the DME.
The above text and work is copywrited 1955-2000 by Mr. Chet Skinner and
Entity Sports International, All rights reserved.
Chet Skinner, Coach
[email protected]
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
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End of UIT Mailing List #22
Michael Ray - Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
