Nyu stepped up on a soapbox, and started talking about the nature of the
universe and nothingness. This is where everything started...
Probably some parts won't make sense, may it be because of the things discussed
or the fact that I only included the lines of those who gave me green for
it.
If someone else who participated would allow me to include his comments, I'd be very grateful. You know how to contact me. I saved the full log, so it's no problem.
Jack Manycoats: See, that's where a lot of scholars go wrong.
KaiMZDM: wb
Kleinlowe: Er, how did you know, Burn?
Kleinlowe: *sweatdrops*
Jack Manycoats: They think that if they prove something, then the world will
conform to their theory. However, if their theory flies in the face of
observed evidence, its obvious that their theory needs revising.
Kleinlowe: Oh! Okay, it was someone else?
Vanvanarmo: heh. WB, Jeri
Kleinlowe: Then, uh, yeah, it's obviously irresponsible and reprhensiable
behavior!
Vanvanarmo: *G*
Jack Manycoats: In this case, it is evident that the universe exists, unless
our senses are suspect. If they are, then we may as well forget the whole deal
and stare at the pretty colors.
Jack Manycoats: If the world really conforms to our beliefs, then than why
aren't there more thunderbolts smiting the wicked?
Vanvanarmo: Galish: Yes. That's exactly the point.
ChicagoDog77: Hello.
Jack Manycoats: Hello, Pom.
ChicagoDog77: Thank you, Nyu!
ChicagoDog77: And Jack.
Vanvanarmo: Heya
Kleinlowe: They're hyrdogen!
Kleinlowe: And lots of little bits of other stuff.
ChicagoDog77: Radiation in space as well.
Vanvanarmo: Energy, matter... all the same illusion.
Kleinlowe: Boatloads of neutrons.
KaiMZDM: e=mc2
Vanvanarmo: The Tao that is seen / Is not the true Tao, until / You become the
Tao
Vanvanarmo: Tao-Tao, cute little anime panda.
KaiMZDM: O__O The Tao...you know, what the yin/yang is based on?
Vanvanarmo: As far as I am concerned, everything is based on the Tao
KaiMZDM: Represent, brother!
ChicagoDog77: I understand Nintendo is bringing hamtaro or hamsaro or whatever
over here from Japan.
Vanvanarmo: The Tao has many names, but none of them truly describes it.
Vanvanarmo: The Tao is nothing that can be learned, or taught. It can only be
experienced.
KaiMZDM: Which is why books about the Tao kinda crack me up.
KaiMZDM: Although I do like the Tao of Pooh. ;)
Vanvanarmo: By trying to define the Tao, you defy it.
ChicagoDog77: Conversation...too deep...
ChicagoDog77: Brain...hurting...
KaiMZDM: Best you can really do is point someone in the direction of the Tao
and let 'em go find it themselves.
Vanvanarmo: Exactly.
KaiMZDM: It is...kinda like the Force. Sometimes.
Kleinlowe: Or: "You can lead a student to a conclusion, but you can't make them
think."
KaiMZDM: ('cept I've never learned how to use it to throw lightning bolts. )
Kleinlowe: I'd settle for the whole being able to reach things from a distance
bit. That would be soooo handy.
KaiMZDM: The Tao can sometimes be percieved as a sort of rhythm or music that
pervades the universe.
Kleinlowe: Oh?
Kleinlowe: Pfft.
Vanvanarmo: Truth be told, Kai just threw a lightning bolt. Such is the Tao.
KaiMZDM: If you listen with your 'heart' or 'ki', you can hear it.
KaiMZDM: lol
Kleinlowe: I was thinking getting a soda from the fridge across the room.
KaiMZDM: *hands Burn some nice, foamy chocolate drink*
Vanvanarmo: Nyu: That's exactly what we are doing here.
KaiMZDM: No religion involved here.
Vanvanarmo: The Tao is nothing religious at all.
Kleinlowe: No philsophy, either!
Kleinlowe: Yes.
Kleinlowe: Concidence.
Kleinlowe: Why does it need to be anything more?
ChicagoDog77: Because I demand that it is, Jeri.
KaiMZDM: Dunno. A long string of cause and effect maybe. Dunno what effected
the cause though.
ChicagoDog77: I as an individual cry out to the universe for meaning.
Kleinlowe: Too freaking bad.
KaiMZDM: Maybe coincidence. Maybe gods. Maybe the universe imagined itself into
existance.
Vanvanarmo: And the Universe said: Mu.
ChicagoDog77: I don't give a hoot if I'm significant.
KaiMZDM: Absolutely!
KaiMZDM: But that's just me.
Kleinlowe: Mebby I am a victim of a series of accidents as are we all.
ChicagoDog77: But I do not believe that the universe is meaningless.
Vanvanarmo: Yes, Nyu.
Kleinlowe: SPot the refrence and win a prize.
KaiMZDM: If nothing else, it carries whatever meanings we ourselves attach to
it.
Vanvanarmo: Sirens of Titan
KaiMZDM: We count - we're part of it, after all.
Kleinlowe: Yay!
Kleinlowe: You win something!
KaiMZDM: Like a multiverse? Why shouldn't there be?
Jack Manycoats: In nature, there are no isolated events.
Jack Manycoats: There is one universe, therefore there are many.
Vanvanarmo: There is no multiverse, because we don't know about it.
Kleinlowe: The multiverse only needs to happen once at any time. I think that
that, in itself, shows it probably exists.
KaiMZDM: That argument doesn't hold. If you didn't know about China, does that
mean it wouldn't exist?
Vanvanarmo: Yes.
Vanvanarmo: Such is the Tao.
Jack Manycoats: Fah. You believe only in that you can see. How sad your
philosophy must be.
Kleinlowe: If Pluto didn't exist before we knew about it, how come Neptune's
orbit was influenced by it?
Jack Manycoats: It matters not if I know of something. It will exist
nonetheless. I am not so arrogant to think that I create things by knowing
them.
Vanvanarmo: The whole universe is created in the very moment we see it. Every
time anew.
ChicagoDog77: Thank you, Galish. ^_^
Jack Manycoats: And so there is nothing but yourself, Van?
Kleinlowe: I AM THAT CAT.
Vanvanarmo: Schroedingers Cat was a hoax put up by him to prove quantum
scientists absurd.
KaiMZDM: It is itself. Perhaps the Tao is the mind of the universe.
ChicagoDog77: Perhaps the Tao doesn't exist anymore than any of us do.
Jack Manycoats: And who is to say the Tao does not know the multiverse?
KaiMZDM: I think it does.
Jack Manycoats: Cogito Ergo Sum.
ChicagoDog77: I think not, Jack.
Kleinlowe: Perhaps it's nothing more than one set of eyes through which to view
the infinite splendor of reality.
KaiMZDM: Don't try to view the Tao through the precepts of Christianity. That
simply doesn't work.
ChicagoDog77: Who says I am, Kai?
Vanvanarmo: Jack, no. There is everything around me. But a difference that
makes no difference is no difference. And the parts of the universe I do not
know about can be, as far as I am concerned, nonexistant.
KaiMZDM: Not you...it seemed like Nyu was trying that. Sorry.
ChicagoDog77: Ah.
ChicagoDog77: What about me Van? Do you believe I exist?
Vanvanarmo: Yes, you do. I read your messages on the screen, therefore you
exist in this very moment.
Vanvanarmo: If I do not chat with you, I will still remember you, therefore you
exist.
ChicagoDog77: You know me...therefore I exist. Okay. But you do not know my
surroundings.
Kleinlowe: Hum.
ChicagoDog77: My environment does not exist.
Kleinlowe: If I exist, what did I have for lunch?
ChicagoDog77: How can I exist in nonexistence?
Jack Manycoats: Van, if there is only that around you, and they are created
only by your knowledge of them, then they are merely extensions of yourself.
Jack Manycoats: And if it did not exist until you knew of it, where did it come
from?
ChicagoDog77: If not his own mind.
Vanvanarmo: Wrong conclusion, Pom. Your surroundings are part of my knowledge
of you. And Jack, you are starting to get my point.
Kleinlowe: This debate is chasing its own tail.
Vanvanarmo: Perhaps I should replace "knowing of" with "getting influenced by"
ChicagoDog77: Seems like an ego-centric world view, Van.
Vanvanarmo: Seems like the only world view that makes sense. And it is not at
all egocentric. It's just acknowledging that I am I, not everybody else.
KaiMZDM: It's one thing to not worry about something because it isn't affecting
you. It's another to deny its existance altogether.
Vanvanarmo: Define "existance".
Jack Manycoats: By your argument, we do not have true existance. We are only
phantoms of your imagination, given existance only by your wish for
conversation.
Kleinlowe: Everything exists. It's just a matter of degrees of seperation.
KaiMZDM: Taking up part of the multiverse.
Jack Manycoats: Either things have never existed, or have existed before you
knew of them.
KaiMZDM: Supposing we're all merely figments of the mind of the multiverse?
Kleinlowe: The multiverse is not a thing; it is everything. You cannot define
it as a thing, as there is nothing else to define it against!
KaiMZDM: Did we chase him off?
Jack Manycoats: And while existentialism is a valid philosophy, it is a rather
boring one, in my opinion.
Vanvanarmo: Me? No, just thinking.
KaiMZDM: You can only define it as itself.
Kleinlowe: There is no not-multiverse to define it against.
KaiMZDM: The fact that it exists is enough definition.
Kleinlowe: Okay. I need loud music, STAT.
Vanvanarmo: The Tao clearly eludes us here.
Jack Manycoats: If your philosophy is correct, then there is little point in
arguing about it. We only have existance because of you, and cannot therefore
bring anything new to your worldview.
Vanvanarmo: And I exist only because of you.
Vanvanarmo: And the assumption that I influence the creation of the universe in
the moment I see it is wrong.
Kleinlowe: So your perception of yourself is invalid?
Vanvanarmo: All a matter of who is talking.
Jack Manycoats: I know there's more to the universe than me, simply because my
imagination's not that good.
Vanvanarmo: This all is not about imagination. This is about influence. Quality.
Vanvanarmo: I admit my thoughts on these things are heavily influenced by "Zen
and the art of motorcycle maintenance"
Jack Manycoats: Things do not come from nothing. If they didn't exist before
influencing you, where did they come from?
Vanvanarmo: That is not the point. Existance is influence. What is before does
not matter.
Jack Manycoats: Fah.
Jack Manycoats: While I agree that everything that exists influences you, I
believe that they do have an objective existance.
Vanvanarmo: I feel we should move this to the boards. This is too interesting
not to widen the audience. Agreed?
Kleinlowe: I wonder if playing music so loud you can't hear yourself think is
an acceptable subsitiute for silencing your mind.
Kleinlowe: Naw. Then I'd have to organize my thoughts and have them make actual
sense.
Vanvanarmo: *G*
KaiMZDM: lol
KaiMZDM: It would be interesting to see what kind of response this would get on
the boards.
Jack Manycoats: Of course, the main point I now have with your argument is that
everything influences you, even those you have never even heard of. As they
say, a butterfly flapping its wings affects the weather around the world.
Jack Manycoats: Take gravity, for instance.
Vanvanarmo: Yep. Just pondering how we should kick the thread off.
Kleinlowe: A creatonist gets the same cold as I do, even though they do not
belive the virus evolved to counter their immune system/.
Jack Manycoats: They talk about escaping Earth's gravity, but you can't,
really. You can get to a point where it doesn't have much influence on you,
but gravity extends infinitely in all directions, though it wanes.
Vanvanarmo: Not everything influences me. That's a nasty pitfall in chaos
science.
Jack Manycoats: Ergo, every object in the universe influences you.
Jack Manycoats: Oh, but they do, Van.
Jack Manycoats: All matter has gravity.
Kleinlowe: Just in teenytinyteeny ways.
Jack Manycoats: The gravity may not be noticible, but it is there.
Vanvanarmo: I have to disagree. Not on the point that gravity extnds
infinitely, but on the point that this makes a difference.
KaiMZDM: Thing is, we can't know whether it does or not because we have no way
of seeing what happens if it were removed.
KaiMZDM: Hello
Vanvanarmo: Heya, Emby
Jack Manycoats: Hello, Emberage.
Vanvanarmo: In deep thought
KaiMZDM: Welcome to the pool of Deep Philosophy!
Kleinlowe: Speak for yourself.
Jack Manycoats: Van, by definition, gravity influences you. In this case, you
are under the influence of all objects in the world. It may not make a
noticible difference, but there is a difference.
Kleinlowe: This is just an intellectual circle-jerk. It's fun, but we
certainly aren't getting anywhere.
KaiMZDM: Emby - we're talking about the multiverse and the Tao. Well,
originally it was the Tao, but I think the topic moved.
Jack Manycoats: Er, all objects in the universe, I meant.
KaiMZDM: *facepalms* You know the yin/yang symbol?
KaiMZDM: Have you read through the Zen-Dao archives?
KaiMZDM: The Tao is part of the philosophy embraced by Zen-Dao.
KaiMZDM: Dao=Tao
Kleinlowe: Unless you've got the answers / don't patronize the mountain men o/~
Vanvanarmo: As I said before, a difference that makes no difference is no
difference at all. Would it influence your decision to buy a GameCube or a xbox
when a star in a galaxy 1000000 parsec away goes nova?
Jack Manycoats: Yes.
Jack Manycoats: There will be a small shift in gravity.
KaiMZDM: We can't know what makes a difference, though. When we've gotten used
to something being there it seems to have no difference...
Jack Manycoats: The matter that composes your brain will be affected.
KaiMZDM: but what happens when it is removed?
Kleinlowe: Someone sees a new star in the sky and takes it as a symbol. They
start a new religion, killing everybody who owns an Xbox. You buy a gamecube.
Jack Manycoats: It probably won't change the decision one way or the other, but
it may make a difference in the thoughts as you come to that conclusion.
Jack Manycoats: Most decisions you make before you really arrive at your
conclusion. The decision-making process is generally nothing more than the
path you take to find out what it was the entire time.
Vanvanarmo: That is very true.
Vanvanarmo: Such is the Tao.
Vanvanarmo: And, on the lighter side: I was very relieved when I learned that
Zen-Dao smokes :)
Kleinlowe: Why's that, Van?
Jack Manycoats: It can be, Emberage.
Jack Manycoats: The problem is, how does it know when to flap its wings?
Vanvanarmo: Because I smoke. ;)
Kleinlowe: You're gonna like WTWN: Age of Aquarius, then.
Jack Manycoats: The thing is, with the gravity, it probably doesn't make any
noticable difference. But if things are balance completely on edge, with
probability able to split either way, then the influence is felt.
Jack Manycoats: Then the coin falls, and you get heads or tails.
Kleinlowe: There was an article on this whole thing about a year ago in
Scientific American.
KaiMZDM: I see a web page about a 1st grade field trip with pictures.
KaiMZDM: Is there something we should be checking for?
KaiMZDM: The pictures are a little pixellated...oO
KaiMZDM: Ah. Congrats, then.
KaiMZDM: Neat!
Vanvanarmo: OK, I want to put this chat log on my web page. Objections? Wishes
to be edited out? I'll only include the lines of those who explicitly permit it.
Kleinlowe: [geek] You should encode the video as divx and have it downloadable!
Or stream it! [/geek]
Jack Manycoats: Go ahead, Van.
KaiMZDM: I'm fine with it.
Kleinlowe: Upload it. Put a link to it. Like any other file.
Vanvanarmo: Allright. Thanks!
05-31-2002