A question about Christianity

The Wiccan Religion Message Forum

Posted by Howe on July 12, 1998

I have read the statement from The Council of American Witches which says:

Our only animosity toward Christianity, or toward any other religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its institutions have claimed to be "the only way" and have sought to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of religious practice and belief.

I'm just wondering if we are all so forgiving for the centuries of torture and burnings inflicted on the likes of us. I know I honestly harbor a hard feeling or two and wonder as well if the current church wouldn't just be happy to put us on the wheel as well. In fundamental terms, Christianity hasn't changed a bit: they are still a bunch of floating, self-righteous goody-goodies in large part and heavens, I frequently find that I don't like them much. Does anybody else share the same sentiments? Maybe it would be better to answer this off the web.

Howe

An answer.

Posted by Symphony on July 12, 1998

In Reply to: A question about Christianity posted by Howe on July 12, 1998

I'm just wondering if we are all so forgiving for the centuries of torture and burnings inflicted on the likes of us.

Well, the Burning Times for the most part were inflicted on other Christians. I understand what you mean, and those murdered should be remembered, honored, and thanked for their sacrifice. Theirs was the greatest of them.

I know I honestly harbor a hard feeling or two and wonder as well if the current church wouldn't just be happy to put us on the wheel as well.

Why do you harbor such feelings toward them for something you never suffered? None of those alive now inflicted that pain. As for whether they would kill us now, I introduce a statement by the Pope:

"All those who do not attend Mass should be punished like heretics."

I think that gives us your answer. But, in defense of Christianity, I must say that not all Christians are out for our blood. It would be foolish, erroneous, and generalizing to say that they were.

In fundamental terms, Christianity hasn't changed a bit:

The mechanics of the Catholic Church are still essentially the same as they ever have been, but other denominations are quite progressive. Notice I do NOT mention the Southern Baptists.

they are still a bunch of floating, self-righteous goody-goodies in large part

Now you are resorting to name calling. That will get your point across... along with the impression that you are a vocabulary-lacking boor with nothing better or more convincing to say than insults. Which is not to say you are, but that is how you could end up making yourself look. Excuse me for saying so, but the same tactics are used quite often by Christian hate-mongers with there stupid tracts and misinformed web sites. They're goody-goodies, we're devil-worshippers... it's stupid on both sides.

and heavens, I frequently find that I don't like them much.

As do I. But I also find every so often, someone who genuinely lives by the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, whom I respect mightily, and can accept me for who I am. Why would I do less for her/him?

This circle of hate, distance, and violence won't end until we make it end. It is up to us. We must educate people, and we must stop bashing Christians. It is a double standard, I know, but it is the system, and that is something we must work within. They bash us, no one cares. We bash back, they say, "We told you so." We can't win except by demanding peace and not giving in to anger.

Re: An answer

Posted by Howe on July 13, 1998

In Reply to: Answer, posted by Symphony on July 12, 1998

I do beg pardon for my apparent name calling. In fact these are just the terms that depict the often insoucient assurance that Christianity frequently instills. You know the smile, I'm sure. In fact, I use the term "goody-goody" in a technical sense coming from Confucius. He said that there are four classes of persons. The first is those who are open and follow the mean. The second is the brilliant but erratic. The third is those who are anxious to be correct. And the fourth is the hsaingyuan (or goody-goodies).

The hsaingyuan are the thieves of virtue. They are the class of people who are quite content to secure the approval of society. You want to criticize them and they seem so perfect; you want to lampoon them and they seem so correct; they fall in with the current conventions... In their living they seem to be so honest and faithful, and in their conduct they seem to be so moral. Everybody likes them and they are quite pleased with themselves. But it is impossible to lead them into the ways of Emperors Yoa e Hsun [i.e., openly based responsible behavior based on "seriousness" (jung) or receptivity.]

You say:

We can't win except by demanding peace and not giving in to anger.

Um. I'm not sure that makes sense. I think we have to examine our foundations and feel the pain we are in association with, bring it out and give it justice in as much as possible. You say that "None of those alive now inflicted the pain." And then note that the Pope is still enthusiastic about punishing heretics. Symphony, obviously the Church is still with us and it is the institution that practiced these horrors. It certainly hasn't died although it now, thank God, does not have the power to enact its control so physically and aggressively. There was a good program on TV about the witch burnings and torture techniques of the various churches in Europe a few weeks ago produced with Wiccan participation. Good stuff to look at so we remember where we are based whether we are happy about it or not.
To me, and I'm sure to the Goddess, it is obvious that those who came before and followed the same path are still with us.

Yours in Hecate,
Howe

A "witch" after my heart

Posted by Howe on July 14, 1998

In the interest of clarifying the guestion above further, let me say that I am discovering that the definition and practice of the Wiccan witches doesn't seem to have much to do with what I honor in the being. A witch, in the proper sense as I know the term, opens to the agony of existence and serves justice by expressing this pain and seeking to return it to its source. There is an absolutely lovely depiction of this in Kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson where he tells of a woman's protest against the rot in the heart of a great family:
 

The woman's face lit up with malignant anger. "That is the house of Shaws!" she cried. "Blood built it; blood stopped the building of it; blood shall bring it down. See here!" she cried again. "I spit upon the ground, and crack my thumb at it! Black be its fall! If ye see the laird, tell him what ye hear: tell him this makes the twelve hunner and nineteen time that Jennet Clouston has called down the curse on him and his house, byre and stable, man, guest, and master, wife, miss, or bairn--black, black be their fall!"
    And the woman, whose voice had risen to a kind of eldritch singsong, turned with a skip, and was gone. I stood where she left me, with my hair on end. In those days folk still believed in witches and trembled at a curse; and this one, falling so pat, like a wayside omen, to arrest me ere I carried out my purpose, took the pith out of my legs.
 

Sorry, I'm sure, for my confusion.

With all due respect,
Howe