DeusMortem

DeusMortem Posted 1/9/2005 11:05:53 PM message detail		Oh my God. The ending´s beauty can´t be put in words. It is, without a doubt, the most artistic piece you will ever witness in a game... Everytime I see a bird, freedom personified, I nowadays think of, and actually even hoping the bird I see above me is Ark... Am I going to get teased for this board message or what...
DeusMortem Posted 1/9/2005 11:07:29 PM message detail		Oops. A little grammati flaw (infact, an incomplete sentence) there, but just ignore it, you know what I mean.
Hasukawa Kazuyaa Posted 1/10/2005 11:28:18 PM message detail		Not on this board. It's a great game. If just a tad short. ~Kaz --- *Fighter:* "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you.. Bob Holly: "How.. Do you like.. Me now?!"
Hyper Ace2790 Posted 1/15/2005 2:42:30 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
superpeaches Posted 1/25/2005 1:01:46 PM message detail		Loved the ending, and the rest of the game as well.
Slith Mindslice Posted 2/1/2005 8:56:43 AM message detail		I haven't played this game in years so I forgot what happened in the ending. Ark just stopped existing right? --- "You can tell me Xbox is the best when pigs sprout wings and fly."
DeusMortem Posted 2/4/2005 2:39:17 PM message detail		Ark "vanished" yes. The ending is kind os mysterious, but I think the bird you see soaring the sky in the ending is Ark reborn in the "light gaia" world. The fact that this is only a theory, and that one will never know for 100 percent makes it so much more mystical, and therefore much more "touching" :-( --- Oscar Wilde - The Happy Prince, Friedrich Nietzsche, Final Fantasy VII, Wild Arms, FMA, The Brights...
nerex Posted 2/23/2005 7:38:00 AM message detail		Actually the bird you see is only Ark in Ark's last dream. Afterwards someone knocks on the door... and Ark and elle spend their final hours together... Still the most beatiful game ending that ive expirienced. Even compared to recent games. --- "mew" - nerex
ruffriles20 Posted 2/25/2005 6:58:30 PM message detail		I dont think the knock on the door is necessarily final hours together, after the scene with the bird etc when it fades white, etc its never really clear what happened...its subject to interpretation but it could be some kind of miracle and he survived, hence the knock scene
InternetJordo Posted 2/26/2005 6:59:18 PM message detail		This was the best ending for any game on the SNES, and it ranks up there with the best RPG endings. Very touching and thought-provoking.
Plasmashadow Posted 3/4/2005 12:54:57 PM message detail		Yes, this ending was very touching the first time and it still is. Sometimes I just turn on the game to see the ending, and to hear the ending music, it's wonderful... --- ---
FranckKnight Posted 3/5/2005 8:29:38 AM message detail		Here's my little theory on the ending. Elle talks about 'if they are fated to be together they will meet again'. In the game they mention that everyone has a 'lght' and 'dark' version of themselves. So its very possible that what the 'light' Elle meets is the 'light' Ark, that we only see a shadow of through the game. You realize that it was the Dark Ark that revived the world and killed the Dark Gaia. Pretty ironic. Dark Ark possibly revived as a bird. Of course, this is only theories, since the game doesn't say for sure. --- FFXI Celedh: Phoenix, Hume Lv PLD 59/WAR 30/WHM 15/THF 15/NIN 12/SMN 7/BLM 7, Looking for good Linkshell.
R u s h Posted 3/11/2005 11:23:48 PM message detail		Gah, this topic has me paranoid of spoilers... >_> SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . The ending made me cry. Yep. Ark went through so much **** to save the world. It must've been crushing to return to Crysta in the end, knowing your fate and the world's for the rest of eternity, knowing tomorrow you will wake up forgetting everything, knowing that you are the pawn of Gods, knowing that everyone in the village is oblivious to the Truth. Look back into the pond again. What does Ark see? Nothing. Hearing the Crysta theme again... Through my perspective, Ark had never appreciated home as much in his life. Everyone in town points out how much he has matured... In my opinion, his bird form is his dream. And in his dream, he visits Elle. His right to dream is his only reward for his eternal crucifixion. What? about 42 or 62 billion years since his creation, and infinity to go... The world will decay and sink, and he will rise once again. . . . . . . --- New Account.
Mongoosedog Posted 3/13/2005 4:06:38 AM message detail		The way I see it, it's a happy ending. They put a huge focus on how without dark, there cannot be light. Dark Ark lives on through Light Ark. After all, Dark Gaea cannot be destroyed, only sealed away until the next hero arrives outside the wheel of fate. I think that yes, the knock on Light Elle's door was most definitely "Light Ark", but try not to think of it as a different person. They're of the same essence, how else could you hear Light Ark in your head during those parts of the game? Do you remember that other part in the game? The part where somebody said that the time when Light and Dark become one was soon. Light is merely dominant as Dark Gaea is sealed away. The way I see it, after Dark Ark's dream, the power of Dark Gaea on the world faded (along with Dark Ark) and joined the light. Light Ark? Dark Ark? Just Ark. Ark and Elle can finally be together. How touching... ;__; sniff Excuse me, have something in my eye... (By the way, I named Ark "Vice" as I normally name my characters that but I didn't know it would be so fitting. He was "Dark" Ark after all...) --- The internet is the alternative to thinking! ¦Þ
Crowley Posted 3/22/2005 4:07:39 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Crowley Posted 3/22/2005 4:09:36 PM message detail		Several times in the game reincarnation is stated as a fact in the world of Terranigma. I figured the bit at the very end was Elle and Ark meeting in the next life. And I love the ending too. "Thanks for saving the world, but unfortunately you'll have to die." No Final Fantasy has ever had the guts to go that way!
R u s h Posted 3/29/2005 10:58:00 PM message detail		I think of the Ressurection bits referring more to ressurection when there is a need. There is no need for Ark to ressurect to be with Elle. The game ends with Ark hopping in bed. I find it pretty easy to come to the conclusion that he is dreaming. That and I recall a reference to dreaming about flying or being a bird in the game, although maybe I'm delusional. --- New Account.
Durran of the Mirror Posted 3/30/2005 7:35:11 PM message detail		Spoilers Wow, am I shallow... I never even considerred any of that. I had a much different thought. When Ark was on Berugas aircraft with Royd and Fyda as the craft was about to crash, I remember Fyda saying something like "People have survived plane crashes before." At the time, it sounded as though she was hoping against hope. Royd also says something to the effect of "Ark, I will see you later." That's how my mind read it. Upon reflection, I thought that these two survived and made their way for Storkholm. After all, it is known that Ark vanished and nothing more... Well, that's what I thought. --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
Crowley Posted 4/1/2005 9:56:44 AM message detail		To me it seemed that every soul goes through reincarnation. The strongest evidence I can think of this right now are the spirits of Meilin's parents in Louran. They said that they were in the process of being reborn, not knowing what form they would take in their next lives. I can't see why those two would be especially important to the world. Near the end of the game when you meet Beruga much focus was put on the importance of the natural order of things, the circle of life, if you may.
chrism902000 Posted 4/15/2005 9:46:53 PM message detail		Mark spoilers. morons. --- Milhouse: Cowabunga!
skadabra65 Posted 4/15/2005 10:56:19 PM message detail		Maybe there should have been a special spoiler tag, but don't you think a topic called "The Ending" would contain spoilers about the ending?
Rebellion88 Posted 4/16/2005 4:35:49 PM message detail		^ Agreed
Snow_rock Posted 4/16/2005 6:33:14 PM message detail		spoiler- I've been thinking about the ending part of the flying bird. maybe it's the light side of ark. explanation. when you went to the place with five skulls, light ark meets you. maybe that's the reason that you could hurt dark gaia because you have the light side. so when you killed dark gaia, the dark side of ark is filtered, leaving the light side. the light side then reincarnated to a bird( or maybe, light ark was a bird). since dark and light ark is one, dark ark can see what light ark does. Thus, dark ark dreamed the bird scene. so maybe... uhh... light ark chose to be a bird because it's the fastest travel. Take note how he follows the plane and the train. I think he used them as guides to find storkolm.
Phoenix Fist Posted 4/19/2005 9:04:46 AM message detail		When Ark was on Berugas aircraft with Royd and Fyda as the craft was about to crash, I remember Fyda saying something like "People have survived plane crashes before." At the time, it sounded as though she was hoping against hope. Royd also says something to the effect of "Ark, I will see you later." That's how my mind read it. Upon reflection, I thought that these two survived and made their way for Storkholm. you see that whole you go through to return to Crystilya, I'm pretty sure that was the plane crashing. Ain't no survivors coming out of that. unless someone can correct me. --- Formally Blood Angel Dante. May LUE forever burn in Hell.
rhyost Posted 4/19/2005 7:35:58 PM message detail		spoiler well the ending was great, but i didn't really like it at first because my motivation throughout the game was getting Ark back home to Elle... and well it didn't really happen how I expected. still great though.
Snow_rock Posted 4/20/2005 3:36:37 AM message detail		Phoenix Fist, i don't think it's right because the plane Ark was following was a traveller plane. The one with Royd and Fyda was more of a warship with gun cannons sticking everywhere. but it was a good observation though. or maybe, Royd did survive and he worked as an airplane pilot, and Fyda worked as a train operator. hehe. just a guess --- is this sentence a question¿
Snow_rock Posted 4/20/2005 3:42:30 AM message detail		Something is boggling me. Why did dark gaia leave Beruga to die in the turbines? How did he ever know about dark gaia??? --- is this sentence a question¿
R u s h Posted 4/20/2005 4:51:38 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Snow_rock Posted 4/20/2005 9:19:28 PM message detail		what's he gonna do?... ...do the same....again... it's a cycle. remember what Yomi said in the very beginning of the game. Ark isn't the first one to ressurect the world. Many has defeated dark Gaia. and probably, also openned the Pandora by mistake. Or should i say, it should happen. Ark openning the Pandora's box was a signal to restore the light side. it's fate. no escape. when dark gaia restores, he's gonna do everything again. everything that was destroyed by Ark. Also, he will create another Ark and Elle, which explains Elle saying that fate will bring them back together. Or maybe not? --- is this sentence a question¿
R u s h Posted 4/21/2005 7:09:58 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Snow_rock Posted 4/21/2005 9:33:41 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Snow_rock Posted 4/21/2005 9:54:23 PM message detail		I don't quite understand the question. Ark really died. but didn't (name of monk boy in Tibet, i forgot) revive him? It's not really necessary that Dark Gaia uses Beruga all the time. He can use other people to take Beruga's place in the next ressurection. --- is this sentence a question¿
R u s h Posted 4/21/2005 11:50:12 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
R u s h Posted 4/21/2005 11:55:33 PM message detail		Don't mind me at all. >_> Thanks for answering, though. --- New Account.
Normdogg II Posted 4/23/2005 9:10:39 AM message detail		The way I always looked at the ending was... Spoiler Light Gaia said something along the lines of "When the world is in danger, you shall return." Ark did disappear, but he shall reappear when evil returns.
Snow_rock Posted 4/23/2005 6:06:02 PM message detail		Hey, I've been thinking. At the first time you meet Yomi. He said that many has been a savior like Ark. And you receive the Crysta spear. Does this spear by any chance, was used by the previous savior? ----- (the cry spear? what the? how does it talk?) (hero pike, talk to me!) is this sentence a question¿
TeamDragonerS Posted 4/23/2005 7:31:08 PM message detail		it's always a karmic balance, that's why dark gaea never dies, it's just sealed, and that whenever there's an evil threatning the world the hero must not kill it, but seal it; if darkness is destroyed, light can't exist, if ligh is destroyed, darkness can't exist, even though darkness always tries to defeat light and vice versa, they know they shouldn't, they'd be killing themselves --- I might not be the right one, it might not be the right time, but there's something about us I got to do, some kind of secret I will share with you
Snow_rock Posted 4/24/2005 10:38:31 PM message detail		these so called gaias are not mortals such as humans. They can't die. their spirits can only be sealed. when you fight dark gaia. i think ark's just draining it's dark energy. when the dark energy is gone, dark gaia can't do more than sleep. But when the people start to become evil, wars break out. Crimes increase. Thus, fueling the dark energy of dark gaia? --- is this sentence a question¿
TheyGotMe Posted 4/26/2005 4:24:17 PM message detail		The Cry in CrySpear means Crystal.
Durran of the Mirror Posted 4/26/2005 6:24:17 PM message detail		You know what? I'd like another sequel to the trilogy (Soul Blazer, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma). However, rather than dark taking over, light becomes too powerful and starts taking over. A hero is born, but fights for dark, rather than light, in order to restore the balance. On a slightly different subject, isn't it interesting that: A. Dark Ark is the good guy. B. (Spoilers for Illusion of Gaia) That Will/Freedan/Shadow, who all used Dark powers, were the good guys. Quite unique and a nice change of pace. --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
R u s h Posted 4/27/2005 1:11:24 PM message detail		Meh, it's not that unique. They just aligned the hero to the opposite of norm. It would be unique if say you play the game thinking you're the good guy the whole way, but then if you look at the game from a whole different perspective, in reality you're playing the evil character. And you would never know any better unless you really sat back and analyzed it. lmao, that would be a revolution in story telling for video gaming. --- New Account.
rabidtailsfan Posted 4/27/2005 9:17:59 PM message detail		Meh, I thought that when you do the scene with the starstones, Light ark fuses with you, and you get reborn (beggining of chapter 4). after defeating dark gaia, dark ark would have died, due to the destruction of the dark side, but did not. the bird is dark elle. --- Join the KAMG troll hunt. crush those trolls with logic
Snow_rock Posted 4/28/2005 2:24:58 AM message detail		why? bakit? --- is this sentence a question¿
Elsporko Posted 5/3/2005 10:53:58 PM message detail		At the end it specificly says that Ark's last dream is being a bird and watching the world grow old, so the bird is his dream not any kind of ressurection. --- dumbbaby.net Animal Tested, Jesus Approved
R u s h Posted 5/4/2005 2:09:39 PM message detail		I thought it said his bird form was his dream, but since everyone believed it was a reincarnation I thought I was hallucinating. Do you know WHERE it says that exactly? --- New Account.
Elsporko Posted 5/5/2005 5:30:49 PM message detail		It says it after you get into the bed. When I posted that message it was right after I beat the game. --- dumbbaby.net Animal Tested, Jesus Approved
monkeyboydc Posted 5/5/2005 5:38:44 PM message detail		It sounds like the same basic thing happens at the end of this game as what happens at the end of the second. After the main character, Will, defeats Dark Gaia he and Kara watch earth evolve into something different. The ending is the kids getting out of school in the modern world.
Rebellion88 Posted 5/7/2005 6:56:21 AM message detail		Ark da man!!!
Timberwulf Posted 5/12/2005 9:53:29 PM message detail		Quote: It would be unique if say you play the game thinking you're the good guy the whole way, but then if you look at the game from a whole different perspective, in reality you're playing the evil character. And you would never know any better unless you really sat back and analyzed it. After playing Terranigma several times, I'd say it actually comes very close to this. Though the game you describe would end on such a note, still thinking that you were the good guy. I think they'd both be great from an artistic standpoint.
rickyzhou Posted 5/14/2005 4:06:49 AM message detail		I forgot what happened, I have played this and beat it for 5 years. I know you fight something big and blue at the end though. lol... And the main character uses a spear. Other than that, not much. lolzomgz. I need to play it again... I was too little to understand anything back then. So, I'm probably going to have a better time around the 2nd time I play.
Snow_rock Posted 5/20/2005 1:49:22 AM message detail		or what if beruga was a good guy all along? --- is this sentence a question¿
Absolute Arctic Posted 5/20/2005 8:16:28 PM message detail		I first finished this game when I was about 9 years old. I had my friend over when the ending came up. My friend fell asleep, and I watched the ending several times without understanding a thing. I really need to play this again... ---
Snow_rock Posted 5/23/2005 12:44:50 AM message detail		the ending is really different. unlike the other games that end up the final enemy dead and the protagonist savoring a good future. ark had no future --- I'm confused...but am I crazy¿
Snow_rock Posted 5/29/2005 5:54:03 PM message detail		I've been thinking the part when Beruga used a virus to vanquish Neotokio. the people that vanished includes the staff in the Quintet building...does this tell us something? perhaps why there isn't a terranigma 2? just a crazy thought... --- I'm confused...but am I crazy¿
Phoenix Fist Posted 5/30/2005 9:32:10 AM message detail		Crazy......but it's a scary thought. --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
CDRAGON_II Posted 5/30/2005 5:39:23 PM message detail		My last time beating this game was 3 years ago, and for a great game like this it gotta have a great ending like this... Spoilers The thing is, Light Ark was resurrected by Dark Ark at the end of chapter 3, right? And he was reborn at the begining of chapter 4 'THE RESURRECTION OF THE HERO', the thing I wanna ask is the following: A- Why Dark Yomi wanted to kill Light Ark as a baby? B- When the hero goes back to Crysta after destroying Beruga's Flyer, is this hero is Dark Ark with Light Yomi, or Light Ark with Light Yomi? Or was it the same Yomi from the begining which tried to kill baby Ark a few minutes ago? Appreciate if anyone can help with this. :) --- "That's the way the DRAGONS do it!"
Snow_rock Posted 6/12/2005 10:42:13 PM message detail		Dark Gaia knew that Light ark (the baby) will seal him so he uses yomi to kill ark. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
jupiter_Io Posted 6/16/2005 5:11:19 PM message detail		You know how near the end (surface) Elle lives all alone in Storkholm? She lives in Ark's house, only except in Storkholm it's actually her house? She says she'll wait for your return. So what was up with that? In the end scene, we see clearly that it is Elle in Storkholm, noted by her house and her orange hair. What do you guys think of that? Was that end scene, Ark returning? Or someone else?
DeusMortem Posted 6/17/2005 5:59:01 AM message detail		"At the end it specificly says that Ark's last dream is being a bird and watching the world grow old, so the bird is his dream not any kind of ressurection." Rather, it says that Ark fell asleep, having has last dream. Then the scene with the bird appears - insinuating that it is Ark's last dream. Anyways; I find it quite obvious that Ark is reborn - reincarnated. Although it is not a litteral fact, but should reasonably be a way for the programmers of mystifying the whole thing. Things open for interpretation are much, much more beautiful often. --- En vild fantasi som dränks i lådvinsnostalgi...
Snow_rock Posted 6/19/2005 4:34:01 AM message detail		not knowing the real ending makes it more beautiful --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Timberwulf Posted 6/25/2005 9:34:36 AM message detail		Not knowing is the real beauty of it, but I'll throw my theory out there 'cause everyone's doing it. :P I always figured Light Ark never made it through the loss of the old world, or perhaps King Henri's massacre. After all, you never see him with a body. The purpose of the Sunstone quest is to find and fuse with the Light Half to become the true hero. I think there's enough evidence, from this game - and, if you want to reach, IoG - to say that the Ark in Chapter IV is actually "Complete Ark", ie: both Dark and Light. So it would be Complete Ark (The Hero) with Light Yomi. lol, I wish my current replay of the game was closer to the Sunstone quest so I could throw around a few quotes, 'cause right now that theory depends on your memories for it to stand on. lol.
Snow_rock Posted 6/25/2005 11:26:27 PM message detail		good point. Reading what you said, i realized something. light ark has no body anymore. Only light ark can counter dark gaia. so, using the body from the dark side, light ark can be ressurected. It's becoming clear now. I think I remember Fyda saying that ark is familiar. Maybe because she saw light ark in the village. And he was killed by king henri's army. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
iceburner Posted 6/26/2005 2:46:18 AM message detail		I finally beat this game today. I cried. I'm still wiping away tears as I type this. Just amazing. --- - Ice
Timberwulf Posted 7/2/2005 6:03:46 PM message detail		Snow Rock, you're a genious! I was never able to work out why Fyda recognized Ark, even with my theory! lol, well I'm glad that's cleared up! We may not be able to solve most of Terranigma's mysteries but darned if we didn't get that one! On to the "Catherine" kid :P.
Cutting Doom Moon Posted 7/6/2005 2:03:56 PM message detail		Though, there are many holes, I stick by this theory. Dark Ark, though just a pawn in an evil scheme, is different, he may be dark, but he is good, he helps both dark and light, but since the balance had already tipped, it just helped unbalance the balance. (>_<) Dark Ark, being someone different, tried to restore everything. He then realized he was a pawn. He then restores Light Ark, and fuses with him, giving him power. He then proceeds to help the balance, by sealing Dark Gaia. In essence, I believe Dark Ark is Light Gaia. And Light Ark is Dark Gaia. Which is where they come out of the circle of life. Only in essence. Dark Ark, is the true hero, though, he isn't going to be remembered, Light Ark is, for something he didn't do. But I remember Light Gaia saying Dark Ark will come back if danger is coming. Feel free to justify this theory, but I stick by it, cause I don't want to cry. ;____; --- ~Currently trying to play through the Fire Emblem series since June 26th, 2005~ #Completed: 2# My feelings: =\
Snow_rock Posted 7/6/2005 9:22:29 PM message detail		i think it's the other way round. when D. ark was sent to search the starstones, i don't he was expecting to see the L. ark and fuse with it. maybe Instead, it was L. ark who beckons D. ark. (could L. ark be the skeleton on the desert who has the starstone?) --- the dead doesn't fear everything
lucoca2001 Posted 7/9/2005 12:01:36 AM message detail		After playing the game and reading almost all of your theories, I have just one question: We all know what is the hero's purpose, and the trouble between dark gaia and light gaia, but then, what is beruga really? what is this genius?
Snow_rock Posted 7/9/2005 3:02:42 AM message detail		probably just some wacko that d. gaia uses. like some anti christ --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Snow_rock Posted 7/9/2005 3:03:49 AM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
Phoenix Fist Posted 7/9/2005 11:39:18 AM message detail		christ, that cleared up something for me, glad I read it now! --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
Timberwulf Posted 7/10/2005 10:53:02 PM message detail		Beruga, from the philosophical point of view, is harder to explain. Really though, he seems to be a leftover weapon of whatever was going on before the world was destroyed (You could go on for years trying to figure out what happened before/as the world is/was destroyed and you wouldn't get anything. Let's try not to do that, lol). And frankly, if your opponent was a planet yet to rediscover black powder, wouldn't you rather bring back the pawn armed with lasers? lol. I'm not sure if Beruga fits the antichrist definition. He doesn't fit into the general Soul Blazer mythos, either so he's not just some cliche from that perspective (none of Quintet's baddies have used the "Guy you think is the final boss" ploy). Any other ideas/support for the antichrist arguement to smack me down on that?
Snow_rock Posted 7/11/2005 2:44:27 AM message detail		well, i just thought that he's like an anti-christ. but not really. dark probably used him as the one to kill Ark. unfortunately, for dark gaia, kumari resurrected him. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Hyper Ace2790 Posted 7/12/2005 9:12:51 PM message detail		Want sequel ... --- Go to my Sonic the Hedgehog website, The Sonic World, at http://www.thesonicworld.net. We have music, games, music videos, info, and much more!
Snow_rock Posted 7/13/2005 4:14:26 AM message detail		i don't know. if the plot of the sequel suck. the first tn would lose rates too. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Bahamut_10th Posted 7/24/2005 11:47:00 AM message detail		After clearing the 3 games, I got kinda bored since the Soul Blazer series weren't THAT popular and even so, are finished. I'm looking forward to make a soul blazer manga. A new story, but it will mix the universe of the 3 games (most of Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma), with that light and dark side stuff again, many known characters (with a slightly modified look), Gaia and Dark Gaia and so on. The main hero will be a new character tought... even if the manga doesn't end up so good, it will be fun to work on it. Dedicated to Quintet and the old Enix.
Snow_rock Posted 7/25/2005 6:27:05 AM message detail		that sounds curious. i'd like to see your work when you finished it. :O --- the dead doesn't fear everything
DarKTsunG Posted 8/9/2005 3:52:29 AM message detail		I thought Beruga was just there so he could use Asmodeus on the world's populace so only the "necessary" people will survive, isn't that what D. Gaia wanted? --- I'm just gonna sit in mah room and wait for mah body ta die - Meatwad, ATHF
Timberwulf Posted 8/9/2005 10:19:25 AM message detail		Yeah, now that you mention it, that about sums it up. Everything leading up to that is just DG's efforts to get the virus back into play.
Snow_rock Posted 8/14/2005 8:14:57 AM message detail		waitasec. how did beruga ever know about d. gaia? he was the only earth guy who knew the name dark gaia right? --- the dead doesn't fear everything
kain50bc Posted 8/19/2005 7:19:05 AM message detail		spoilers (obviously) Wouldn't beruga have been some manifestation of Dark Gaia's influence upon the world (i read somewhere before somefink about dark gaia's influence creating wars or some such thing) as for how he knew dark gaia in the game, the elder (i think) says something like "my name is Dark Gaia although people know me better as The DEVIL" so perhaps Beruga just knew that was the alternative name (like satan or beelzebub or whatever). and thankyou for the whole dark ark light ark thing, that makes a world of sense now... although the final scene is dodgy and as i see it, highly annoying. i dont like being left wondering lol. the bird was a dream to. it said it was so it was... poor ark. but like it said, he existed outside the loop of existance (a paradox in itself) and couldnt stay, so enjoy your final days in a place where a dark manifestation of your girlfriend lives and once almost betrayed you and where a bunch of people think you're crazy asking about the elder... how pleasant --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
kain50bc Posted 8/19/2005 7:36:57 AM message detail		just had another flash in the brain... umm how how HOW can light ark be a human baby? if ark is sposed to be outside the loop of existence or whatever? i assume it's because dark ark and naughty gaia are back in the underworld again but can anyone else give me a better reason? --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Machan Posted 8/20/2005 3:12:52 PM message detail		spoilers...not like it matters in a topic with this kind of name There's nothing wrong with a human escaping fate! Although...I don't really know what the heck Ark is, seeing as how he lived through thousands of generations (he must have! He watched all the trees grow and all the people grow and...all that other stuff!) Terranigma left me pretty depressed. Here's my take on it: Resurrection of the Hero, I believe, referred to the birth of the Ark that had both Dark and Light blood in him. Because he has both within him, in a way he transcends both Gaias, giving him the power to overpower Dark Gaia. Dark Ark was a pawn, doing what he was told. I don't remember any line saying he was a human that existed outside fate (being that it's been two years. Someone seriously needs to make a game script). But, perhaps with the guidance of a dead/immaterial Light Ark, he was able to escape this...or maybe he's a mutant. An immaterial Light Ark could explain why Ark never aged -- because there wasn't a Light side to age with him. Even after realizing his fate, he couldn't escape being a tool in the contending forces of Light Gaia and Dark Gaia. Although Light Gaia was compassionate about it, he/she/it also utilized Ark to seal Dark Gaia. Ark, to the end, was unable to live his own life. His dream as a bird in the sky, I believe, sums up his life (or rather, the game). Ark was the one who allowed life to prosper on the planet, and the bird's watchfulness seems to remind me of Yomi's statement: "You could be considered a god." Although the opening says that Light Gaia is referred to as 'God', Ark was the true savior of the planet. I think the bird was also to remind us how, even though he was used, he (eventually) made his decisions to help the world out of his own generous freewill...although I'm not very satisfied with that. Even though I'm nonreligious, I feel that there's something very deep and spiritual about Terranigma. I should play it again. Beruga, from the philosophical point of view, is harder to explain. Beruga, I think, represents forbidden knowledge, in a sense. He was toying with things he shouldn't have (like the creation of life), and I think it's fitting that he died such a....technological death involving lots of physics! You can't mess with nature. Or Bernoulli's Principle. --- "Capture him if he's alive. If not, kill him." - Nabuca, official subtitle translation
Snow_rock Posted 8/21/2005 3:42:08 AM message detail		maybe light gaia is really the god. and light ark is a pawn of light gaia --- the dead doesn't fear everything
kain50bc Posted 8/21/2005 7:09:55 AM message detail		here's another question.. it's probly already been answered but.. how did light n dark ark get split in the first place? god and the devil are only different names for light n dark gaia... and ark is their tool or somefink --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Machan Posted 8/21/2005 5:54:01 PM message detail		hmmm I'm pretty sure Dark and Light Ark were never the same person, like how Dark Elle and Light Elle weren't the same person. I just wonder how Dark Ark absorbed nonmaterial Light Ark and got reborn as gray Ark o_O --- "Capture him if he's alive. If not, kill him." - Nabuca, official subtitle translation
kain50bc Posted 8/21/2005 11:07:22 PM message detail		lol gray ark... umm its probly somefink to do with possesion or symbioticism or whatever.. fusion.. perhaps light ark is another word for soul? sounds like the kind of corny thing that would go in --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Timberwulf Posted 8/25/2005 8:32:14 AM message detail		Dark Ark is probably seperate from Light Ark, although some imagery from IoG could contradict this. After Light Ark's soul merged in Dark Ark's body, they were reborn as babies... which is probably just lazy Christ imagery though possibly has somethign to do with how the Hero is constantly reborn to save the world again. In the end, Dark Ark's body was destroyed... I personally don't think Light Ark made it either, but maybe that's just me.
kain50bc Posted 8/25/2005 3:04:42 PM message detail		that DOES make a lot of sense... but what was it that made baby ark fast forward into adulthood again? i can't remember now.. was it the box? --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Snow_rock Posted 8/30/2005 9:19:51 AM message detail		i think i remember something about elle "understand" when he saw ark grew up. I couldn't understand that part. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
BTL Posted 9/4/2005 9:02:29 PM message detail		If the Dark and Light Ark existed at the end, and he was eventually destroyed, he should have gone back to becoming crystal blue, like the game says, but I think only the Dark Ark should be part of crystal blue. So perhaps the knock on the door is Light Ark reborn, since the dark world was disappearing, as Light Gaia said. I know the ending was depressing, but I really liked it. --- Reality is proving your mind is correct.
kain50bc Posted 9/6/2005 5:56:13 AM message detail		yeah cos crystal blue is only underground... but i dont know bout light ark being reborn (although most points to that)... and i musta forgot the part bout the dark world disappearing... ahh well lol --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
IRS Posted 9/9/2005 1:09:45 PM message detail		Heh, my favorite kind of thread. Might as well spin off my own take on things. SPOILERS, obviously. ... I'm fairly sure Beruga ended up destroying the old world in an attempt to take it over and have his "improved" immortal humans rule. A worldwide dispersal of the Asmodeus virus eliminated all life, but something went wrong and his followers were eliminated too, possibly a final burst from LG and her followers. Only Beruga survived, by sealing himself in a cold sleep tube for however many eons elapsed. With the cycle of life broken, there was no place for the dead spirits to go except the Underworld towers, which seem to be a sort of planetary spiritual battery. All Gaias seem to draw power through those that follow them, with the more advanced life providing more power. (Or any power, for that matter- it's hard to choose between good and evil if you don't even understand the concept.) Dark Gaia has power in the Underworld, and through evil beings. Light Gaia has the opposite. DG likely created Crysta and all the inhabitants therin by sculpting them from the Crystal Blue, in an attempt to create his own version of the hero. The funny thing here is that nobody there has a soul yet! What's even funnier is that they're not really the dark other halves of people on the lightside, they're all just fakes created for Ark's benefit. They're all simply glorified puppets in a replication of the hero's true home. It's possible that the entire town was created and destroyed several times over until DG managed to get his Ark just right, as a being able to overcome and tip the balance between light and dark. How to tell when he's got the right Ark for the job? Well, put him through the paces! Engineer a test for the artificial hero, triggered when he touches Pandora's Box. Simply cut the 'puppet strings' and show the true Crystal Blue forms of everyone in the village, blame it on Ark, and have him go out to the towers and revive the world. If he's the wrong hero, well, the monsters chow down, and it's back to square one. If he's the right hero, he'll be able to fully resurrect the continents and defeat the chaotic dark beast Shadowkeeper. When the spirits went back up, DG diverted a few into the villagers- perhaps those of his most loyal followers, and they all stage a big act for Ark's benefit, at least until DG can shove Ark up the hole to where the sun does shine. The next part is fairly straight forward. Ark revives the various forms of life until the whole world is ready for the humans, which is where DG and LG can really hunker down for a divine brawl over souls. Of course, DG is cheating. He has Ark move to wake up his greatest servant from the last world, Beruga, who has knowledge of DG's goals and the means to move them forward. Once Beruga is back in play, Ark is unneeded by DG, and even dangerous- he has the power to affect the balance, so he could simply turn right around and truly work for good. This is exactly what ends up happening. However, Ark can't charge back down to the Underworld, because he's still just another creation of Crystal Blue- much better quality than the villagers, but still completely at the mercy of DG when he's in DG's realm. If he's going to fight DG, he'll need a proper body and soul, and LG can provide those- for a price. Ark's Crystal Blue body is slain, and he's reborn in a true body, skipping the usual rebirth process through the Starstones. DG is not pleased with this turn of events. He sends up the Elle replica to finish off the child so he can snatch Ark's soul when Ark goes through the proper resurrection process. However, DG made his replica a little too human. Fake Elle hesitates, then turns on fake Yomi and they're both destroyed. Now you get the hero equipment and the real Yomi, and it's off to smite Beruga before he can finish his plans.
IRS Posted 9/9/2005 1:13:26 PM message detail		(continued...) Beruga seems to be trying to create a world populated only by his vision of humanity- zombies, not able to die, but also not quite alive. The lightside can be destroyed all over again by Asmodeus as long as Beruga and the zombified followers remain to exert DG's influence. I think the ultimate goal of both Gaias is to extend their domain beyond the planet- it's not very farfetched when you think of the last game in the series, what with the comet and all... If DG can permanently kill off all of LG's followers while preserving his own followers as immortals, he gains control of the whole world for eternity. The zombies may be specifically created "soul containers" for the souls DG diverted to the villagers in the Underworld- this time, DG is going to wait until the surface is again devastated by Asmodeus before moving his follower's souls into the bodies, so there's no risk of LG's side managing a draw and forcing the whole thing to start all over. If DG and Beruga succeed, the cycle of life will be eternally broken- the clock will be stopped on the thirteenth hour, a time that must not be. Ark manages to send that plan down in flames (literally!) with help from others on the side of good. At this point, with Beruga dead and the Asmodeus virus destroyed, DG and LG are evenly matched. There's no critical need for Ark to go back down to the Underworld, making LG's request more of a suggestion rather than a "if you don't, we're screwed" thing. However, I rather doubt Ark even cares much about the big picture at this point. His entire existence, or at least as much as he can remember, has been a massive lie and manipulation at the hands of DG. It's a very personal conflict between Ark and DG at this point, as Ark tries to grasp the true magnitude of what's been happening and how much of him is a true existence, and how much is a twisted creation of DG. When Ark makes it back to Crysta, DG is ready for a throwdown. The true nature of the souls Ark freed from the towers is revealed, as DG's followers abandon all pretenses and attack, even as disembodied souls. Ark confronts the Elder, or rather DG, and finally gets the truth. They fight, and DG is beaten by his own creation, which has managed to exceed all expectations. Without DG to sustain their bodies, the villagers won't last long. The dark souls are purged with DG's defeat and LG's influence spreading into the Underworld. LG grants Ark a final day among the puppets of Crystal Blue that he thought were his family and friends before they all disintegrate. Ark goes around, says his goodbyes, then goes to bed.
IRS Posted 9/9/2005 1:14:23 PM message detail		(continued again! Dang 4096 character post limit...) Now to get into my excessively hopeful conjecture. Without DG, LG is free to tweak things to her liking. She sends Ark a vision of the world she intends to create- one based on the cycle of life, where people use science to enhance the cycle and reduce the pain of entering and leaving life, rather than seeking to break it. There is one issue with this- as souls live many lives, they progress. After enough cycles and upon gaining enough knowledge and wisdom, they begin to encompass the entire cycle, transcending death on the path to Nirvana and whatever may lie beyond. Lord Kumari has already moved greatly along this path, and I believe Ark managed to blow past him entirely with the help of the starstones and the soul of the real Ark that lived in Stockholm. After Crysta dissolved, Ark could have resurrected his own body and return to the real Elle. He may be just that powerful- he did defeat DG, and before that he unintentionally severely tipped the balance towards darkness. He did shove DG's plans down the dark one's throat, then drove his spear in after them, so it's not that much of a stretch to say he could surprise LG by not vanishing with the rest of Crysta. Maybe he woke up the next morning on a pile of Crystal Blue, walked back to the hole, and jumped back into Lightside. It's a good thing LG didn't lead Ark by the nose too much, because Ark could probably beat her too if he were so inclined. As it is, he'd probably be tired of all the godly activity and just want to live quietly with someone who simply loves him no matter what he is. --- The Infernal Revenue Service (IRS) Harmless except when he's not.
kain50bc Posted 9/10/2005 1:22:22 AM message detail		wow... well thought out indeed! but just to nitpick one detail.. wasnt the hole closed when ark returned to the underworld? i dont recall. --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Timberwulf Posted 9/11/2005 2:51:04 PM message detail		Wow, that's really good, IRS! I love the idea of the "planetary battery" for the souls probably the best, lol. You all know I don't agree with the Ark coming back thing, but it seems to have entrenched itself as fanon, lol. I'll just hurl theories on that from the sidelines :P. Sheesh, we think it's LG who sunk Earth now? Sheesh, it's Hyrule all over again :D.
IRS Posted 9/13/2005 10:01:06 AM message detail		Well, I did call it "my excessively hopeful conjecture," so I certainly don't consider it set in stone. However, I am a firm believer in the Happy Ending, unless it's very explicitly stated otherwise in canon material. All a matter of opinions in this area, and you know the saying about people's opinions... I don't think LG was the one who destroyed the world- Beruga and DG did most of it. Nobody really knows exactly what happened to destroy the old world, though it was almost certainly cataclysmic. The ABC's of modern warfare were likely being lobbed around wantonly. I do think LG sunk the continents, but that was only after they had all been rendered poisonous blasted wastelands teeming with the few creatures nasty and stubborn enough to keep going after Armageddon (incidentally, these would be the same critters Ark has to fight through later). I'm pretty sure the entire world was looking much like Evegreen did when you first arrived- a burnt out husk with things bubbling in the water. There wasn't much of anything left to save as the remaining creatures were chaotic, neither good nor evil, hence useless to both Gaias. Oh, and if Ark survived and wanted to go back up, I'm sure there's a button for that somewhere. That, or take a quick lava bath and pop out in Hawaii (Polynese, if you prefer). I'd go for finding the button first ;) --- The Infernal Revenue Service (IRS) Harmless except when he's not.
kain50bc Posted 9/15/2005 2:44:01 AM message detail		just lmfao... --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 9/15/2005 8:51:13 PM message detail		Uh. Wait. Why would D.G. want to resurrect the surface world? If the Gaias ran on said "batteries," then shouldn't L.G. be pretty much powerless if all of the world was desolate? Why would D.G. want to give L.G. the power to defeat it? And if reviving the world was Ark's sole purpose and he was directly created by D.G., why does he possess any form of ability to resist commands? Wouldn't it be safer for D.G. to simply channel his energy into some host, or make a puppet? Why would he need the heroic traits at all? And why would D.G. spare Beruga and his followers if he plans to infuse people with underworld souls? Doesn't that imply that he has the ability to send beings up anyway? Which leads back to why D.G. would want to resurrect the surface world. That was far too many questions, wasn't it? Sorry, I'm new. And behind. So I'll probably restate what everyone else has said from time to time.
IRS Posted 9/15/2005 11:21:24 PM message detail		It's not "new and behind", it's "fresh with more ideas". Questions are good! As I see it, neither Gaia can get anything from the souls while they're trapped in the towers. It's untapped potential. Likewise, the Gaias would both be mere shadows of their former selves without the souls in some living form. It's roughly the equivalent of going from a normal human to one having to drag themselves around by a hand. DG probably would be wise to simply be happy with what he's got, but evil tends to be dissatisfied with whatever it has. Greed is one of the deadly sins, after all. Ark is designed to be a balance tipper- this necessitates a certain level of ability and free will. I'm sure DG would have preferred to do everything himself, but that opens him up to being defeated and sealed away along with LG since he's already weak as it is (the one body that might be directly inhabited by DG is that of an old man- far from powerful). Thus, a proxy is the safest bet. Remember, you had to pull a lot of stuff by the skin of your teeth to save the day- DG made a good plan, but it's always those unexpected details... DG does plan to infuse beings with the underworld souls- the problem is that the timing has to be right. Too soon, and they could be killed before the forces of good have been quashed. Too late, and there's nobody left to infuse with a soul. Can't stick a soul in a dead body, things go in the opposite direction. DG needs Beruga to manufacture the living bodies via means that leave them soulless yet alive. If the bodies are destroyed, more can be made later, but the souls are irreplaceable. Once good is safely defeated, DG opens a path for the souls to inhabit the prepared bodies. Bingo, instant army of darkness and no Bruce Campbell to stop them. --- The Infernal Revenue Service (IRS) Harmless except when he's not.
kain50bc Posted 9/16/2005 2:19:22 AM message detail		And naturally DG needs beruga to create these bodies because direct divine intervention is "cheating" and slightly noticeable --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 9/16/2005 2:04:25 PM message detail		I feel dumb for needing to ask these questions. They're probably obvious. Sigh. But if D.G. needs souls to have energy, what is crystal blue? Is it not energy? And is it not under the direct control of D.G.? It seems to be abundant enough. And if he/it wants to beat L.G. first, why not beat him/it before resurrecting the world, then resurrect it after? I got the distinct impression that D.G. was stronger than L.G. at the beginning. There are some other things I didn't quite understand in your (IRS's) explanation; mind if I ask about them? I hope I don't come off as nitpicky...
Timberwulf Posted 9/17/2005 4:06:11 PM message detail		I would say DG doesn't have the energy to move far from Crysta. It's possible that she can do whatever she wants within that tiny area, but outside eveyrthing is out of her hands. As the continents are ressurrected, DG finds the power to crack open the portal and walk to it, then sits back and rests until the ressurrection of humans. I don't really have any proof for that, though it does seem a bit odd that DG doesn't even bother to clean up the lost crystal blue. As for free will, it's possible that the Gaias CAN'T interfere directly in such a manner. Assuming DG's power can't extend past Crysta explains why he couldn't possess Ark at times of need. It would also explain why she loses control of Elle... but I'm not sure if I believe that. Personally, I think DG is simply trying to abuse the Hero in her own favour. Without free will, it's possible the Hero cannot accomplish his goals. They're good questions, I'm not even sure how to answer them.
kain50bc Posted 9/17/2005 10:40:40 PM message detail		I've got a question. Astarica, those clones. who's side are they on? because we already know light elle and dark elle.. yet theres another here. and the royd and fyda in that kinda reflected the ones on the surface. --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
BTL Posted 9/18/2005 8:00:38 AM message detail		My theory of the events at Astarica is that they happened before Ark opened the box in the underworld. I think it was the full living, breathing world before Ark got there, and so when Ark came to resurrect the world, those people that he meets are just reincarnations of people from the past world. --- Reality is proving your mind is correct.
nepheliad Posted 9/19/2005 1:55:54 PM message detail		My opinion (though it isn't worth much) is based on the cyclical feel presented by the game, and that the scene in Astarica is not of any event that transpired in the time frame of the game, but before, as in before the world was destroyed the previous time by Beruga. Therefore, those people were incarnations of Elle, Fyda, and Royd. The question I have is whether or not Ark's role in the scene is that of his incarnate from before, or just added in for impact to him to get him to do certain things. But my question is irrelevant, anyway. Hmm. I guess all Astarica might be is one weird acid trip.
BTL Posted 9/20/2005 7:29:47 AM message detail		I'm thinking that it is Dark Ark's dream, but in the dream, he is the Light Ark. It's just hard to tell because they look the same. --- Reality is proving your mind is correct.
nepheliad Posted 9/21/2005 4:43:43 PM message detail		That's basically what I meant, but I thought you meant that it was of light Ark after dark Ark resurrected the world. See, that's another thing. When was light Ark alive, if ever? I couldn't figure that out. Is he a remnant of the previous world like Beruga, or did he live and die while dark Ark was traveling? Did I miss some dialogue? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 9/21/2005 5:55:23 PM message detail		I've always figured Astarica was, yeah, an "acid trip" or at least a portentous dream. The trouble with prooving this is that I can't work out the metaphors, can anyone help me on that? No one really knows anything about Light Ark. It strikes me that the graves on Antarctica are either from the old world or important people that died throughout the world and spritually gathered to the monument that is the graveyard. Who knows? Good questions, good questions.
kain50bc Posted 9/22/2005 1:00:58 AM message detail		my theory on light ark was that he was sealed there by one of the gaia's, probly when DA was 'awakened'. when DA unsealed him with the starstones LA jumped at the opportunity and they became 'grey ark' as was mentioned before. i dont know if either knew of the consequences of that action. yomi obviously did and guided ark along that way in order for him to do his deeds. which metaphor? an example? i cant remember (lousy alcohol) --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Timberwulf Posted 9/24/2005 6:00:18 PM message detail		spoilers, as if this thread wasn't already full of them Well, Ark sees God Elle (having survived a year without food or water) rant evilly about human nature, destroy Roy and F... I forget Fyda's alternate name. Roy and Fyda kiss (or hug, or something) and are destroyed. Goddess Elle then challenges Ark to drink one of the glasses instead of destroying him and he wakes up. Royd and Fyda meeting again in the current plot would make this look like a scene from the past acted out with their current forms (I say current forms because a) the forms are never the same during ressurection, check the other games and b) A priest with a baseball cap :P?). But at the same time, the whole scenario seems too "out there" to be real. Like, honestly... creating a God? The trial? And the fact that the ghosts referred to it as a dream which is normally metaporical. This, from what we're seeing now, could be argued either way at the moment, any ideas?
nepheliad Posted 9/25/2005 10:02:39 AM message detail		Fyda's name was Fyla, I think. Well, fasting was, and sometimes still is, thought of as a way to purify oneself, so the trial doesn't seem too far-fetched, IMHO. As for turning into a god, many tribal groups do/did believe that a person could channel a god or goddess through such rituals. The Royd and Fyda reincarnation implications of the scene would run in the same vein as that in which Meilin's parents speak to her, or the numerous Ark/Elle scenes which mention meeting each other again. As that is, the "dream" would lose an awful lot of meaning if it were merely a dream. Oh, and the baseball cap thing? Probably just laziness; why create a new sprite that would only appear for a few seconds? Still. Something about it just doesn't seem quite right. I still can't be convinced that it is an event of the past. I can't say exactly what I find off about it; when I figure it out, I'll probably post something about it. What do you mean, the other games? Are they related in that manner? The heroes being reincarnations of the same spirit? I always thought that the the trilogy was only loosely connected by the Gaias. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
BTL Posted 9/26/2005 3:28:19 PM message detail		I think the dream event was there kind of for speculation, even if you can't figure out why they put it there. It was more like a look on humans, as Elle put it, and what she thought of being a god. This could be a good question: If Elle felt that way about being a god, what about Light and Dark Gaia? Do they conflict each other because they have different feelings about being gods? Or are they different because Elle is human? Actually, I'm wondering if Dark Gaia did have an influence on Elle when she became a god and destroyed Royd and Fyla. --- Reality is proving your mind is correct.
nepheliad Posted 9/26/2005 9:07:30 PM message detail		Well, Yomi referred to Ark as a kind of a god at the end, but in terms of personality, he is anything but a god. That led to me thinking that the world of Terranigma has a hierarchy of gods, with the Gaias on top, minor gods to the bottom. The more likely answer, though, is that the expression is merely relative; they appear godlike to people because they are capable beyond our abilities. As for D.G.'s influence, all the beings probably experienced it to some degree. The closer one is to godliness (the more power the Gaias infuses in one), the more influence they have over the peson. I use it as a cover-all for situations in the game where Ark seemingly does some very illogical, unexplainable things. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
kain50bc Posted 9/30/2005 8:35:28 PM message detail		ok... why does dark ark show no evil tendencies? well he is a little bit of a mischief maker in crysta but other than that he's pretty much all good. or is that just the player lol --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 10/1/2005 6:07:10 PM message detail		That is one difficult question. I had a question along the same lines earlier, but it was ignored. Just my interpretation, but I think that dark Ark needed the heroic characteristics to complete his task. Why else would D.G. choose, of all people, the hero to mirror? Evil is not commonly associated with courage, for one thing, so had Ark been evil, it is possible that he wouldn't be able to take the harshness of his task. Also, it seemed to me that both Gaias held influence over him. Another possibility that appeals to me more is that when D.G. copied light Ark, he/it/whatever attempted to remove the "good" qualities of Ark. However, D.G. found that those qualities were interlinked to the characteristics of the hero which he/it/whatever needed. So D.G. resigned instead to mold darkside Ark by adjusting his environment, giving up on making him "evil". However, to serve D.G.'s purpose, D.G. infused in him mischievousness enough to trigger the necessary events, and innocence (or stupidity, ADHD, nonchalance, etc) enough to ensure that he doesn't stray by learning too much, too soon, among other such modifications. Along that line, as darkside Ark is made of crystal blue, D.G. could influence Ark's decisions when needed. This has the added benefit to D.G. that it requires a minimal amount of effort and energy, as he doesn't need to actively manipulate Ark at all times. Besides, if Ark didn't care about life, why would he go through the ordeal of resurrecting it? I think too much, too quickly. That probably was an incoherent, lacking cohesiveness, and utterly incompetent answer. I am not content with these myself, so I hope someone can produce a better idea. Short Answer: How many people can tolerate and embrace the concept of an evil main character? Some, myself included, would be more than happy to, but could the general public? Would it market as well? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
BTL Posted 10/2/2005 7:36:06 AM message detail		Most of the people from Crysta weren't evil. They might not even be aware that they're under Dark Gaia's influence, if they are. The only person who seemed to know anything about what was going on would have been the elder. But I can see Dark Gaia having influence over Arks' mischief. That was what caused the world to go out of balance. I think he influenced it because he wanted to use that catastrophe in the world to dominate over Light Gaia. --- Reality is proving your mind is correct.
Hyper Ace2790 Posted 10/9/2005 12:01:16 PM message detail		I hate toe the one to point this out, but maybe you guys are thinking about this a little too much. Beat the game, shed a tear for the courageous hero, and move on with your life. Of course, I still pray every night for a GBA/DS port, so I guess I'm kind of a hypocrite...but whatever. --- Go to my Sonic the Hedgehog website, The Sonic World, at http://www.thesonicworld.net. We have music, games, music videos, info, and much more!
BTL Posted 10/11/2005 7:25:38 AM message detail		But we like doing this. Interpretation of a game makes us see things because a video game is a media much as a book or movie is, and should have meaning, ambiguous or not. And that also is what makes the game good. To me, the story and it's interpretation and meaning are more powerful than both the graphics and sound. --- Reality is proving your mind is correct.
nepheliad Posted 10/12/2005 9:11:21 PM message detail		It's fun to debate about trivial things! I love a good story; that is the reason for my preference of RPG's over other genres - it is an interactive book. And if you read a book, and not draw interpretations of it, then that forfeits the purpose of reading said book. Besides, it's relaxing to delve into non-education or work related thought, every now and then. As a fringe benefit, it helps to improve my own paltry writing abilities. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
kain50bc Posted 10/13/2005 5:04:26 AM message detail		trivial? TRIVIAL?! lol no this is life-altering stuff! what i'm i'm dark kain and i find a spear in a box in the basement one day? i might need to know this stuff! lol sorry i havent been on for a while.. thanks for clearing that question up bout dark ark not being dark... that was bugging me.. i dont have anymore q's yet but i'll keep listening lol --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 10/14/2005 6:20:22 PM message detail		Now that I've done some posting and thinking, I'm spinning my own yarn of the plot of Terranigma. First, I'll post a timeline. If there is anything major that I've missed, alert me to it. I focused on what happened to Ark, as, though the evolving world was complex and important, the events contributing to it were irrelevant to the main plot. Prior to the game: -Dark and Light Gaia go through a conflict of similar proportions. -Lightside Ark dies.* -Beruga succeeds in releasing the Asmodeus virus.** -The virus engulfs the entire world. Life no longer exists. -Beruga is interred into a cryonic chamber. -The overworld is sealed.* -Crysta is formed. -Characters are born and age.* In game: -Underworld Part I- -Ark stumbles upon the box, releases Yomi, and freezes Crysta. -Ark travels around the five towers, freeing not only the citizens of Crysta, but the respective parts of the overworld. -Ark journeys to the overworld. -Overworld Part I- -Ark resurrects plants. -Ark resurrects birds. -Ark resurrects animals. -Ark resurrects humans. -Overworld Part II- -Ark wakes up, after purportedly comatose for three years.* -Ark meets Meilin at Louran, then proceeds onward to Loire. -Ark meets Princess Elle, and participates in the groom hunt. -Ark journeys to Storkholm. -Ark returns to Loire and restores Princess Elle's memory. -Princess Elle murders King Henri. -Ark goes to Litz and rescues Columbus, who, in return, lets Ark travel to the North American continent with Princess Elle. -Ark meets Perel in Freedom. -Ark obtains a ship in a South American port (the name eludes me at the moment). -Ark rescues Will. -Ark arrives in Yunkou, then goes to Dragoon Castle. -Ark meets up again with Princess Elle. -Ark obtains an airplane from Will, and flies to Mosque. -Ark releases Beruga. -Beruga makes a localized release of the Asmodeus virus in Neotokio, obliterating all life there. -Ark finds the starstones. -Ark meets the apparition of Lightside Ark, and the two merge.* -Darkside Elle attempts to kill baby Ark, but cannot. Darkside Yomi* attempts the same task, but is sabotaged by Darkside Elle, who dies in the process. -Ark destroys Beruga's airship, stopping the release of the Asmodeus virus. -Underworld Part II- -Ark returns to Crysta and faces the elder, who is Dark Gaia. -Ark defeats and seals* Dark Gaia, but is given only one day to live. -Ark spends his last day in Crysta, before dying. * denotes that the event could've occurred a number of ways, all possibilities of which have merit. ** marks a point that I might make different in my project, for more impact or for one of my ideas. What happens between Overworld Part I and II is debatable, and will be left for later. Phew! So, catch any glaring errors? I'll be posting interpretations and a more formal outline soon, if no one objects. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 10/14/2005 9:53:16 PM message detail		Good timeline, nephelied. The town in South America is Liotto, by the way. Please, certianly post a your outline, I look forward to it. Do you know something else we can't work out? How Darkside Elle managed to destroy Darkside Yomi. The game isn't very clear on whether she uses some unknown power or if she turns his own attack against him. It's simply something we can't argue (at least with the evidence given in the English version) because it's so sketchily presented.
nepheliad Posted 10/15/2005 11:10:01 PM message detail		Working on it. There are still a few kinks that require fixing. As for Darkside Elle, she is made of crystal blue, which is most likely a form of energy. She may have released all of it in an energy blast of some sort. Also, there is nothing to say that she isn't powerful in her own right. It may also be that Yomi had attacked with the intent and capability of killing only one person, and was using its full energy to do so, as its intended victim was Ark. Elle then basically diverted the attack to herself. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 10/20/2005 4:47:34 PM message detail		Yeah, I was thinking the latter as well.
CaptainWhiskey Posted 10/22/2005 11:42:32 AM message detail		Dear god (no pun intended, if you get what I mean), this game was amazing. This was one of the best RPG endings I have ever had the pleasure to see. I only wish I had played this back when it first came out so I could've been replaying it over the years.
kain50bc Posted 10/23/2005 6:03:36 AM message detail		so basically D Elle jumped in the way of Yomi's bullet then Ark grew up again in like 2 seconds? or however it was that he grew up again.. geez i only finished this 2 months ago and i've already forgotten a lot --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 10/23/2005 6:24:33 PM message detail		For clarification, Ark had already reverted to his prior age before Yomi's attempt. He reverted upon Darkside Elle's attempt's failure, if I remember correctly. A bullet? I suppose that works as an analogy. Does anyone know of a place to get a game script that hasn't been tampered around with? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Kahran042 Posted 10/24/2005 7:32:53 PM message detail		Hmmm...I'm actually working on a Terranigma script. If you want, I'll let you know when it's finished. Also, does anyone here have any ideas as to why Ark decided to participate in the groom hunt? I've asked this before, but never gotten a satisfactory answer. --- I never knew loneliness...until I discovered friendship.
kain50bc Posted 10/25/2005 2:12:40 AM message detail		if i remember correctly it was to advance the plot :D no sorry couldnt help myself. He participated because... well didn't Fyda say something about it when she busted Bounty? asked if he was one of the competitors for it --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 10/25/2005 7:15:52 PM message detail		You've received no satisfactory answer? Probably because there isn't one! It wouldn't be out of character for Ark to decide to do that on a whim. He has what could be best described as a curious, but nonchalant and cynical personality, so it isn't wholly unlikely that he joined simply because he could, and felt like it. Many events depended upon his impulsiveness. My memory is hazy, but perhaps, depending on the sequence of events (the way one played the scenario), he did it to gain access to the castle, after finding out that the Protect Bell was stashed within? It would've been funny if he was merely wandering about the castle and was forced into joining the groom hunt. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 10/28/2005 7:38:42 AM message detail		I see my topic is still alive. Keep it that way; honour the beautiful ending of Terranigma. --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
nepheliad Posted 10/28/2005 3:55:24 PM message detail		Aww, only its ending? Surely, you jest! The game was wonderful from start to finish. This thread has become a tribute of a kind to the entirety of the game! And it is more than deserving of what little recognition it garners, and so much more........... Heh. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 10/30/2005 8:32:26 PM message detail		It's true, this topic does stand fairly strong as a tribute to the game. Funny you should mention the Groom Hunt. I went into the castle without talking to Lush Louis about his problems (I think you have to talk to him twice or something) and I was pretty much going in to help out Whitewind... who knows? Lots of possible theories. Maybe Ark did have a little inkling to inheirate the Loirian throne? :P
kain50bc Posted 11/9/2005 4:09:05 AM message detail		ark? he doesnt exactly strike me as being ambitious in that way (saving the world yes, running a country? sounds like more responsibility lmao!) i would go with the idea that he went to help whitewind and remembered Fyda mentioning the groom hunt in Bounty's... or somefink to that effect --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 11/9/2005 5:59:11 PM message detail		I didn't even remember Whitewind; it was only fleetingly touched upon. I doubt Ark would want the throne, as he seems to be something of a drifter (or adventurer), and wouldn't want to be tied down like that. Perhaps he went into the castle to help Whitewind and inadvertantly ended up in the groom hunt? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 11/17/2005 2:27:21 PM message detail		I think it's funny how you start Loire with everyone talking about Whitewind (or is it White Wind? I forget) but after you free him he just disappears... I assume it's because you don't have to free him but don't you think he'd have been released when the citizens took over the castle? I thought he stabbed King Henri when it happened, myself.
nepheliad Posted 11/17/2005 7:22:36 PM message detail		Yeah, they make such a fuss that I thought for sure he'd at least be as important as Fyda and Royd, considering they were rarely mentioned by the townspeople. I was positive it'd lead to a side quest or something to that effect.... --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DevilSailormoon Posted 11/17/2005 9:35:22 PM message detail		The ending is good if you look at it the right way but there was another problem with it that I'm surprized no one mentioned. SPOILER ALERT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What about the importent characters? Characters like Meiho, Meilin, Perel and Kumari. They were very importent to the story and the ending is suppose to have the importent characters. Another thing is about Royd and Fyda. Yes they were in the aircraft crash but they said they will try to survive it. Even if they did survive it, they should of put them in the ending. I'm not talking about the ending before the credits, but the one where Light Elle opens her door. They should of atleast shown those characters in that bonus ending. I wouldn't even mind if they could show Light Ark in the ending too. END SPOILER Oh and while we are at it, which Elle was the one we thought was a princess when we first went to that castle. I mean if that was Dark Elle(purple hair girl), then how could she have been kidnapped by the king as a baby when the Elder told Dark Elle to goto the Light World and kill Ark? If I remember correctly, Light Elle(red hair girl) was the one from the Storkholm. --- You need only one word to understand BM drumming: Blasterbation. Once you understand this, you're free. -Ireviewgames
DevilSailormoon Posted 11/17/2005 9:36:31 PM message detail		Oops, I forgot to say that my comments towards the whole Elle thing after the ending spoiler was also a spoiler too. --- You need only one word to understand BM drumming: Blasterbation. Once you understand this, you're free. -Ireviewgames
kain50bc Posted 11/18/2005 5:48:20 AM message detail		lol don't worry.. this whole topic is a spoiler Dark Elle was created along with the rest of the peoples in the underworld. light elle is the one from storkholm and dark elle doesnt go there until light ark and dark ark combine to make gray ark and revert to being a baby. and yeah it did suck not knowing what happened to those other characters! --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Rom_Manic Posted 11/18/2005 10:10:30 AM message detail		http://www.fogu.com/terra/gamebook/game_img17.gif That image might help understand what the authors intended, but really it's a mystery as to who was knocking on the door. Ark lived out one last dream...Perhaps he dreamed of his perfect world with Elle?
Snow_rock Posted 11/18/2005 4:18:05 PM message detail		that's so incorrect. the mystery on who it really was is part of the story's greatness. because although we have finished the game, we still aren't sure if it's good ending or bad. somehow, we feel empty because we feel we haven't ended the game. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
nepheliad Posted 11/18/2005 5:51:58 PM message detail		Personal preference, that's what it is. I positively the ending in its understated, minimalistic, and utterly emotionally packed presentation. If its ending had been an epilogue into the major characters' lives, it would've lost its originality - too many video games end like that. Instead, Terranigma vouched to bring the player emotion as represented by the bird, sweeping one with a mixture of hope, but leaving a distinct undertone of sadness and emptiness at the unfulfilled life of someone who, to me anyway, came across as one of the most charming, witty, and realistic (in terms of personality; for once, I could relate to his reactions) characters of video gaming. The open-endedness not only fit the often somber mood of the game, but also allow one to make up one's own mind about what happens next - one can interpret it in any way. This is one of the few games I've played that didn't try to force-feed the player its own set of morals and themes through its deep moments; it lets you ponder it and draw your own conclusions(unlike the Final Fantasies). Besides, Ark, for our intents and purposes, had just died (or was dying, depending on how you approach it). It would've been strange to focus on all these other characters, which only play a bit role in comparison to side characters of other games. There are many people who prefer to have everything told straight up to them. To me, an aspiring writer who loves the philosophical and profound, I prefer a story that doesn't - that presents you with powerful scenes without preaching to you (and, in a way, condescending to you). But that's me. I happen to regard the ending as one of the finest I've seen in any story medium, including television, movies, novels, etc. I hope to one day be that good at emotive portrayal. Because with Terranigma, the ending was about making the player feel, not just wrapping up the story, and is why I enjoyed it as much as I did. My apologies for the long-winded and often redundant post. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 11/19/2005 7:10:50 AM message detail		Good day to you, my dear Terranigma :-) I just stopped by to show admiration... --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
nepheliad Posted 11/19/2005 9:26:23 PM message detail		Yikes, missed putting the word "adore" between "positively" and "the" in the first paragraph. Oh well. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Phoenix Fist Posted 11/22/2005 7:28:37 AM message detail		pays homage --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
DeusMortem Posted 12/3/2005 3:32:23 PM message detail		Know you exist in my visions every time I see birds in the sky... --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
Back as a wolf osted 12/3/2005 9:16:19 PM message detail		Tis sad that no more games will ever come up... I mean, think about it. I always found that it was light Ark in Astarica. How did it end again? Him drinking something? We know through Illusion of Gaia that it's possible for the hero to NOT have won against Dark Gaia. I'm just thinking that maybe Light Ark drank it, and died. This would explain why he looked like a ghost in the desert, correct? At least, that's how I interpreted it. Astarica was pretty much the only thing I don't understand fully... --- Me: Duh. Mom:.....duh! You know what that stands for? Me:Nothing Her: Right! It stands for danger! Danger of me putting my fist through your mouth! Me:o_O *From: BTL \| Posted: 9/18/2005 8:00:38 AM \| #105* My theory of the events at Astarica is that they happened before Ark opened the box in the underworld. I think it was the full living, breathing world before Ark got there, and so when Ark came to resurrect the world, those people that he meets are just reincarnations of people from the past world.
Timberwulf Posted 12/4/2005 5:29:48 PM message detail		Well spoken, nepheliad, my thoughts exactly.
VinnieKain Posted 12/5/2005 9:52:25 AM message detail		Yeah, the Astarica events are really cryptic, that's the only thing I can't really understand in this game... --- If she's happy, then I don't mind.
nepheliad Posted 12/5/2005 7:06:12 PM message detail		In response to Back as a wolf: You bring up an intriguing point. Perhaps lightside Ark did perish in that incident (Astarica). It did say that the liquid would reveal the internal soul; maybe this was in reference the selection of the goblets, not what the drink actually does. Someone who is not fit to be an immortal/hero (which, arguably, in-game Ark is, depending on your idea of the duration of his journeys) would choose one of the wrong goblets, and die. This would complement the recurring theme of light and dark being interchangeable, and flip-flopped in polarization - lightside Ark is somehow unfit to be an immortal/hero, but darkside Ark is a suitable candidate. In fact, this brings up a whole other can of worms - what the merger of the two sides accomplished. Lightside Ark is needed for channeling the energy to combat Dark Gaia, as darkside derives his existence from D.G. Darkside Ark is the soul of the hero, who is determined to persevere. Or vice-versa, with the drink then testing for a specific energy? After all, lightside Elle didn't seem so demure or kind in the scene - maybe she'd been influenced by Dark Gaia? For whatever reason, lightside Ark's inability to become the hero then leads to the apocalypse. Besides, did anyone else get the feeling that light Ark wasn't the most pleasant person? Maybe I'm just strange. Shall we all praise idle, trivial, yet harmless, utterly fun conjecture? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
KinokoFry Posted 12/8/2005 6:21:56 AM message detail		Wow, I just spent my evening reading this thread and it was wonderful seeing so many people that care about this game as much as I do. I almost flt like crying to get to the end of the thread, let alone thinking about the end of the game again. You guys have some fantastic theories, some of which I'd never considered but really match well! I'm currently living in Japan, and only learned during the last couple of months about the existance of all the Terranigma merchanidise, such as the manga and whanot. I'm curious as to whether any of you have it? I'm currently searching for it (and all the other merchandise, too!) but this thread has inspired me to look harder. If anyone's interested, I'm currently making an RPG called, "Gift of Aldora" (http://kinoko.futariba.com/games/gift/) which is very much influenced by my desire to relive and give a tribute to Terranigma. Of course, it's not even a speck of dust touched by a shadow of Terranigma... If only I didn't have to go to work tomorrow, I'd be waking up and replaying that game ^_^
Phoenix Fist Posted 12/9/2005 1:25:19 AM message detail		Heh, yeah, love this game. No idea where it is though. It's easily one of my favourite games, albeit not the mose replayed, something that I regret. --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
Akanvis Posted 12/9/2005 8:41:22 PM message detail		maybe Light Ark was a bad guy? --- $0.02
Snow_rock Posted 12/14/2005 6:37:23 PM message detail		to tell you the truth, im not sure if dark gaia was a bad guy. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Timberwulf Posted 12/14/2005 7:12:13 PM message detail		There's a few copies of Terranigma merchandise at Cherubae's page, including some German comics. http://www.fogu.com/terra/gamebook/index.shtml That's all I've got, sorry. I don't think the drink in Astarica CHECKS for anything. Look at the sequence, the trial God drinks from one goblet then spends a year without food or water. Why? I figure because only one dew-filled goblet has the God-potion imbued into the goblet, the others just contain normal dew and after a year without food or water the person dies. That's how I've always seen it. But you've all got some great points!
nepheliad Posted 12/15/2005 7:40:23 PM message detail		The scene is very open for interpretation. One problem in your argument is that it wouldn't take a full year for a mortal human to die; if that was the method of checking, then it would take no more than a few weeks, on the outside, for the trial to end, and the person, upon selecting the incorrect chalice, to die of dehydration. Also, the scene ends almost immediately after Ark drinks from the goblet, which is not merely the end of the hallucination, as Elle comments that "the end of human life is trite,"; I don't see what she could've been commenting on aside from Ark's death. Not only that, Ark vomited after intaking the liquid - not a natural reaction to dew. Furthermore, Ark remarks that drinking the concoction may reveal the person's internal soul; the way it was "delivered" (for a lack of a better term), it seemed signifigant, which usually amounts to the statement being true. In any case, I'd figured that the year long fast's purpose was to purify the drinker - to cleanse him or her of being mortal, and prepare the person, both mentally and physically, for ascending to demi-god status. I am not saying that the liquid in the goblets is capable of checking as such; the person's selection is guided by whatever arbiter is out there. The other goblets, then, contain some toxin or another, to ensure the death of whomever is unfortunate enough to choose incorrectly. It is the said arbiter (fate, if you will), that senses the person's soul or purpose. Yeah, though the game portrays Ark and L.G. as the "good guys", it can be interpreted the other way. After all, no place on the overworld was as tranquil and idyllic as Crysta, and the idea of reaching human perfection is something that we all, to some degree, strive for..... And what did D.G. want? Apparently, the perfection of humanity. The destruction of what was unnecessary. How is that different from religious purges enacted by any god? I don't want to offend anyone, so I'll leave it at that. Besides, what D.G. said to Ark before their confrontation implies that both D.G. and L.G. know that they're participants in a complex, ethereal dance, which allows for the existence of the world. Is it just me, or am I thinking too much? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 12/22/2005 9:00:42 AM message detail		This thread makes me so sentimental. --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
DeusMortem Posted 12/22/2005 9:01:17 AM message detail		If anyone's interested, I'm currently making an RPG called, "Gift of Aldora" (http://kinoko.futariba.com/games/gift/) which is very much influenced by my desire to relive and give a tribute to Terranigma. Of course, it's not even a speck of dust touched by a shadow of Terranigma... Cool. I'll definitely check it out. Good luck on your project! --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
DeusMortem Posted 12/22/2005 9:07:23 AM message detail		Sorry for the triple post, but I would just like to say that I am very happy that so many appreciate this beautiful game. One would never suspect that Terranigma had such a dedicated audience. --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
Timberwulf Posted 12/23/2005 11:52:29 PM message detail		I'm a little surprised myself, lol. Dark Gaia's objectives: are they descruction or perfection? I'd say there's evidence either way, but destruction is more my leaning - by having two pure forces the balance is better maintained between extremes. I don't know.
nepheliad Posted 12/24/2005 12:29:09 PM message detail		That's part of the beauty of TN's storytelling; it gives enough to give closure, but leaves enough out to remain ambiguous and open to interpretation. I, for one, find it hard to believe that D.G.'s aim is to destroy. After all, it sent Ark up to essentially 'create', in a sense, by resurrecting life. The overworld had been a desolate wasteland; why create anything if your intent is to destroy it? You know what? I just realized that there is a valid argument in thinking that L.G. was responsible for the destruction of the overworld prior to the events in the game. D.G. attempts to create what it sees as perfection through Beruga's virus; L.G. views the sins committed by humanity (against itself and the earth) in this venture (or has a different idea of perfection, or preferring the free will of people), and seeing that the hero has failed in creating the redemption of the world, brings about the apocalypse so as to start anew, or at least, to stem the wrongdoing. They keep a balance in which life can exist in relative contentment, without falling into despair and ruin. Not what I think, but since there was someone who was of the opinion that L.G. destroyed the earth, it is noteworthy. I guess it is possible. What I think is that the Gaian entities are essentially on two different sides of an argument. Neither can be said to be right or wrong outright, and so a hero acts as an arbiter, deciding for them, by experiencing the influence of both. This in turn decides the fate of the world. I hope I didn't contradict myself anywhere; I typed this rather hurriedly. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Durran of the Mirror Posted 12/26/2005 6:03:02 PM message detail		There is a flaw in your argument, though. You see, the virus, Asmodeus, was not Beruga's creation. Asmodeus came to Earth on the comet from Illusion of Gaia. Beruga references this when he says that he will unleash the comet's power on Neotokio. In Illusion of Gaia, Dark Gaia appeared as that very comet. Light Gaia was trying to stop it from hitting Earth and thus killing humanity (and morphing the survivors into horrible monsters). It was, without a doubt, Dark Gaia that caused the previous apocalypse. In the apocalypse, Asmodeus, the virus from the comet, killed most of Earth's population. It was neither Light nor Dark Gaia that sealed away life, but Beruga. Beruga was actually working on a cure for Asmodeus. He perfected it, but could not distribute it. Instead, he sealed away life as we know it. So, Beruga is both a good guy and a bad guy. He was good, but was corrupted by Dark Gaia's influence. Dark Gaia promised Beruga eternal life, but only if Beruga could weed out the weak. In this campaign, Neotokio was his first target. --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
nepheliad Posted 12/26/2005 9:00:27 PM message detail		He said that? Oops, missed it; in fact, I don't recall any of that from either game. Where did you get this information? Or is this conjecture? Because unlike SB and IoG (which had very weak ties), I couldn't find any real ties between IoG and TN; in fact, I've basically taken to viewing TN as a stand alone, which may be a callous decision, but hey. I thought the comet in IoG had advanced the beings of the Earth; it was the comet crashing itself that would destroy the world. I always thought of it as being a bit like the Frozen Flame/Lavos in that respect. I really don't remember any mention of a virus. When they spoke of Beruga's past works in Mosque, it was revealed to have been related to genetics and the curing of hereditary and genetic disorders, eventually escalating to the indefinite lengthening of human life. I'm not saying that you're wrong (hey, I played through IoG without really reading much of the dialogue), just that I'd like more information and confirmation. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 12/26/2005 9:23:12 PM message detail		Eeh. Sorry for the double post. After further reviewing, I see that Beruga did invent the vaccine for Asmodeus, not the actual virus. But nothing suggests that Beruga had not been working with D.G. at the time - who's to say that he'd not struck a bargain to retain only the best of humanity, as in a purge? Not to mention that the dialogue at Mosque (especially seeing as how Beruga had been frozen, left over from the world before it was sealed), and Beruga's own nature seem to point to him having collaborated with D.G. prior to the resurrection. And when Kumari spoke of a star of darkness, he seemed to have been speaking figuratively; he says that Beruga introduced it. Somehow, I don't think Beruga caused a comet to hit the Earth - doesn't seem to be within his fields (robotics and biotechnology). The line following speaks of the quest for immortality as the cause for unbalance in the world, from which can be inferred that it was regarded as 'evil', and probably was the dark star that Kumari alluded to. Also, I still have failed to find any mention of a virus in IoG. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 12/26/2005 9:45:27 PM message detail		maybe the virus was still in the making. as for the evil/good sides. id say it's neither. if we look in the perspective of the game, we humans are in the side of light gaia, so we think that we are the good guys. Ark, being not human, is of the dark side. since we are playing him, we are thinking he is the good guy. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Durran of the Mirror Posted 12/26/2005 9:51:21 PM message detail		No, the virus itself is not mentioned in Illusion of Gaia. However, the comet is the dark star. You see, it was revealed that the comet did not advance humanity, but morph and twist it into horrid abominations. Everything I stated previously is fact, and not conjecture. A lot of that information can be found on a computer in Beruga's laboratory. It is that information which leads me to think that Beruga was a good guy at one point, since his deeds up to his ressurection seemed noble and for the best of humanity. Of course, he had to have collaborated with Dark Gaia before his ressurection, which means before he sealed away all life. I think that just goes to show that there is no absolute good or evil. Think of it: in IoG and TN, Dark Gaia became too powerful, and there was death and destruction looming. But think if Light Gaia became too powerful: things would grow out of control, like a cancer upon the Earth. But I'm getting off subject. The dark star is definitely the comet from IoG. You say that it is beyond Beruga's capabilities, but don't forget: Dark Gaia itself was helping him. Why shouldn't he be able to send a comet at Neotokio? --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
DarkMasterBozel Posted 12/28/2005 3:10:53 PM message detail		The most beautiful video game ending ever. Probably alongside Chrono Cross. Mysterious enough to be lovely. I can't describe my feelings enough.... And yes, this game is popular, and will be always popular. I wish to know though, why there are some stuff that remained unsolved??? Like Capetown * Kalahri, like why you can't promote Litz to a grey city form, like that stupid brat who's spending his time watching the chickens and mumbling: "Katarine...". Like what happened to Feda & Royd at the end, hell, we never got to know what happened with the others, Meihou, Merlin & Peril.... .... Man this game is a GOD among video games.. Any answers????? --- Eggbart sama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Snow_rock Posted 12/29/2005 8:01:32 PM message detail		i hope you understand me. but the fact that there's no answer to your questions is what makes the story mysterious and godlike --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Phoenix Fist Posted 12/30/2005 2:57:36 PM message detail		I hope someone makes a copy of this topic. I can't read it right now but i want to be able to check it out when i have the time and don't want all this info dissapearing into the purge monster's belly. --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
DeusMortem Posted 1/1/2006 4:53:22 PM message detail		Just keep int bumped, and it won't disappear. To bad there is a 500 posts limit though. --- Religion is just fables created as an excuse for acting narcissistic - converting subjective opinions into objective laws. Everyone knows that deep down.
nepheliad Posted 1/2/2006 5:18:43 PM message detail		@ Durran of Mirror Perhaps it did morph humanity, but that is not the same as a virus that kills; it's a very different principle. And unless it's canon (in-game, explicitly stated or inferred without external information), it's conjecture. Everything in this thread so far has been either opinion or conjecture. Unless you've got direct references, this is speculation. Here's what the dialogue at the lab says about the virus: [I]The day an airborne infectious virus of 90% mortality struck. Named Asmodeus, the virus decimated the human populace.[/I] Doesn't have anything to do with morphing humanity. Just obliterating it. And it is made to sound as though it emerged out of the blue. And there is still no mention of a comet; you'd think that if that were the cause, there'd at least be some allusion to it. From what we've seen from virus's use in Neotokio, it kills instantaneously, comparable, in many respects, to a nuclear explosion. I've pored over every line of the computer scene. It was written neutrally; also, here's what it said about what Beruga had been researching: [I]DNA engineering brought about cures for recurrent diseases. It also helped extend life and promote artificial intelligence.[/I] Many would say that genetic engineering is immoral. Furthermore, it goes with the idea of D.G. attempting to engineer its perfect, immortal species. And nothing at all is said about who actually caused the sealing, the true apocalypse. I agree that his intentions may have been good at some point, but that shoots no holes in my theory, so long as Beruga had collaborated, even if unwittingly, with D.G. About 'good' and 'evil', I think those are sentiments everyone is in concurrence with. It's been brought up numerous times; in fact, that particular theory argues that both are merely trying to achieve their idea of perfection, when perfection is actually at the equilibrium. The hero is the arbiter who decides when the equilibrium has been shattered, and lends his power to the opposing side. Here's what is said about the "dark star" in Terranigma: [I]The man they call Beruga. He introduced the star of darkness and bred disharmony. The balance of life was shattered leaving man unaffected by death.[/I] That's with nothing truncated; the lines flow unbroken, in the same thought. Now, in the aforementioned quote about Beruga's actual research, it said that he lengthened life. The dark star extended human life. The dark star, by consequence, is nothing aside from Beruga's genetic research, and it's ability to lengthen human life indefinitely. There is such a thing as a metaphor, and such wording is often found in lore and legend. Unless an unmentioned virus on the comet of IoG, to which there is only a single vague "dark star" metaphor in TN, was meant to extend human life and thusly make them immortal, your reasoning is the one that's flawed. I'm sorry that I've vented, and was unnecessarily defensive, but until you back up your conjecture with statements and ideas that are not speculation, I don't see any holes in my theory (though I admit it's not strong), regardless of the fact that I myself don't support it. I, personally, don't agree with that theory, not because it's got any inherent flaws; rather, it's not as strong as some of the others that I've heard or thought of. If you can prove the relation somehow, you'll have brought life into an old debate about how the games are related, to which the conclusion formerly was that they were basically unrelated. IoG and SB, though, do seem to share more in terms of continuity. @ Others - I do hope that someone will archive this thread, though. Maybe at TerraEarth or Cherubae's? Or on a personal website? At least, I hope that the contents of this thread could be archived for redistribution. I might do that myself, soon; it's been fun. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 1/2/2006 5:20:08 PM message detail		ARGH! Put the italics tag in the wrong brackets! I've been using too many different board formats.... --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Phoenix Fist Posted 1/3/2006 1:12:18 PM message detail		Perhaps it did morph humanity, but that is not the same as a virus that kills; it's a very different principle. And unless it's canon (in-game, explicitly stated or inferred without external information), it's conjecture. Everything in this thread so far has been either opinion or conjecture. Unless you've got direct references, this is speculation. Here's what the dialogue at the lab says about the virus: The day an airborne infectious virus of 90% mortality struck. Named Asmodeus, the virus decimated the human populace. Doesn't have anything to do with morphing humanity. Just obliterating it. And it is made to sound as though it emerged out of the blue. And there is still no mention of a comet; you'd think that if that were the cause, there'd at least be some allusion to it. From what we've seen from virus's use in Neotokio, it kills instantaneously, comparable, in many respects, to a nuclear explosion. I've pored over every line of the computer scene. It was written neutrally; also, here's what it said about what Beruga had been researching: DNA engineering brought about cures for recurrent diseases. It also helped extend life and promote artificial intelligence. Many would say that genetic engineering is immoral. Furthermore, it goes with the idea of D.G. attempting to engineer its perfect, immortal species. And nothing at all is said about who actually caused the sealing, the true apocalypse. I agree that his intentions may have been good at some point, but that shoots no holes in my theory, so long as Beruga had collaborated, even if unwittingly, with D.G. About 'good' and 'evil', I think those are sentiments everyone is in concurrence with. It's been brought up numerous times; in fact, that particular theory argues that both are merely trying to achieve their idea of perfection, when perfection is actually at the equilibrium. The hero is the arbiter who decides when the equilibrium has been shattered, and lends his power to the opposing side. Here's what is said about the "dark star" in Terranigma: The man they call Beruga. He introduced the star of darkness and bred disharmony. The balance of life was shattered leaving man unaffected by death. That's with nothing truncated; the lines flow unbroken, in the same thought. Now, in the aforementioned quote about Beruga's actual research, it said that he lengthened life. The dark star extended human life. The dark star, by consequence, is nothing aside from Beruga's genetic research, and it's ability to lengthen human life indefinitely. There is such a thing as a metaphor, and such wording is often found in lore and legend. Unless an unmentioned virus on the comet of IoG, to which there is only a single vague "dark star" metaphor in TN, was meant to extend human life and thusly make them immortal, your reasoning is the one that's flawed. I'm sorry that I've vented, and was unnecessarily defensive, but until you back up your conjecture with statements and ideas that are not speculation, I don't see any holes in my theory (though I admit it's not strong), regardless of the fact that I myself don't support it. I, personally, don't agree with that theory, not because it's got any inherent flaws; rather, it's not as strong as some of the others that I've heard or thought of. If you can prove the relation somehow, you'll have brought life into an old debate about how the games are related, to which the conclusion formerly was that they were basically unrelated. IoG and SB, though, do seem to share more in terms of continuity. @ Others - I do hope that someone will archive this thread, though. Maybe at TerraEarth or Cherubae's? Or on a personal website? At least, I hope that the contents of this thread could be archived for redistribution. I might do that myself, soon; it's been fun. fixed 4 u --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
Durran of the Mirror Posted 1/3/2006 7:22:51 PM message detail		All right, how about this quote? The world's first super-cold hibernation device made by Dr. Beruga. It slowed the progress of rapid diseases and saved many lives. Now, doesn't it make sense that it was Beruga that sealed away all life? I mean, that would explain a lot of things. It would also explain how so many survived (the world had life on every continent. That wouldn't be so if only 90% had lived). Also, why would language like "star of darkness" be used? It seems a little too explicit just to be a metaphor. I mean, the comet from IoG was literally a star of darkness, since it housed the spirit of Dark Gaia. And that star undeniably morphed humanity (into the Moon Tribe and into monsters, as the Moon Tribe explains when you first meet them). I might also mention that the comet extended life as well. The creatures in the Moon Tribe's cave (and the Moon Tribe themselves) had been around since the comet last passed, which had been long, long ago. Are you saying their lives were not extended? This also brings to attention the creatures in the Neotokio sewer. While some of them were robots, others were biological entities. How could they survive? How could they survive unless they were already infected? You may argue that they had the vaccine, but there is one thing you must take into account: Remember the "humans" in Beruga's test tubes? They were hardly human at all: they had morphed into something else. And since Beruga was trying to create an immortal race, that race would need to be vaccinated against Asmodeus. Most vaccines use a powered down version of the actual disease and it is not too far a stretch to assume that the same was done with Asmodeus. If the "humans" were vaccinated (which I am almost 100% sure of), then they had been warped. The same goes for the creatures in the sewer. Yes, there is conjecture here, but it is all based on facts and some logical inferences. The dark star must refer to the comet, which means that the comet carried Asmodeus. --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
nepheliad Posted 1/3/2006 10:00:15 PM message detail		The world's first super-cold hibernation device made by Dr. Beruga. It slowed the progress of rapid diseases and saved many lives. Doesn’t sound like sealing. And the people would’ve been like Beruga; stuck in the hibernation device. Also, though it may be game mechanics, note how sparsely populated each continent is. It seems like an equal distribution of the ten percent, even taking game mechanics into account; ten percent of six billion is six hundred million. How is ‘star of darkness’ too explicit to be a metaphor? Had they came out and said ‘the comet’, that’d have been too explicit, but a ‘star of darkness’ can be anything. It’s been used in the past to refer to heavenly bodies, people, the devil, the paranormal, a prophecy and so forth. And though their lives were extended, they no longer had human form, nor sentience. Not much like the zombies found in Beruga’s lab. Viruses don’t kill indiscriminately. They aim for specific species; you can’t get canine ailments unless the virus adapts, a process that takes years. Even then, the mutated virus usually ceases to affect the original species. Those things in Neotokio’s sewer weren’t human, and were thusly unaffected. Besides, who were they probably in the service of? D.G. They’re no different from all the other random monsters Ark fought. And I disagree about the zombies. The word ‘zombie’ refers to an undead human in the broad sense. Therefore, it is the hyper-extended life that had that effect on them. The hyper-extended life brought about by Beruga’s genetic tampering. The virus caused the mortality; Beruga caused the ‘morphing’. Again, note this quote: The day an airborne infectious virus of 90% mortality struck. Mortality. Not morphing. It killed. A ‘watered-down’ version of a virus has the same effect as the normal virus. Also, it’d be noteworthy if the virus changed people into other beings, but it states very simply that it kills. No embellishment. Just as you find it hard to believe that "dark star" refers to anything but the comet, I find it hard to believe that all of these important tidbits would've went unmentioned if a connection was intended. And I just realized (can’t believe I didn’t see this sooner) that, either way, the idea still stands. D.G. and Beruga worked together to bring about whatever it is that they brought about. BTW, it’s still conjecture. The moment you added any speculation or non-canon information, regardless of how logical it may be, it became conjecture. This is getting tiresome. You have your theory, I have mine. I disagree with your ideas, for I deem them too far-fetched and reliant on weak evidence, but I get the feeling that neither of us will be willing to concede in the foreseeable future, so how about we call this to an end? Unless someone else would like to take a jab at this. Anyone? It'd be reaffirming to whomever's side you take, or more interesting if you've got your own thoughts on the subject. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Durran of the Mirror Posted 1/4/2006 4:22:23 PM message detail		Very well. You're right. I won't convince you, you won't convince me. But I must say one last thing about the comet. The comet did not only morph. It too, killed. Remember all the spirits at the end of IoG? While some had died for various reasons, like Seth (how did Seth die again? The last we heard of him, he was inside Riverson, or was Riverson, or some such thing. Can anyone clarify this? The morse code scene was very confusing), others, including Will's father, died from the power of the Tower of Babel, which was directly linked to the comet's power. The comet can kill. This is my final statement: the comet both kills and morphs. Is it not possible that of the 10% that survived Asmodeus, some survived as something not human? --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
nepheliad Posted 1/6/2006 10:08:30 PM message detail		First of all, I apologize for my callousness. In my last statement, I neglected to acknowledge that my theory is probably foolhardy to many others. And I'm going to be hypocritical here, as I often am, to say a few things. There is, seeing how there is only us, an equilibrium in the arguments. In my opinion, your ideas are based on weak evidence that requires reliance on speculation and unfounded claims. However, I can't fully rule them out. There was not enough detail; your argument and mine are like apples versus oranges, in a way - it's almost a banter of the semantics of the word 'speculation'. That's why I think that this discourse will go nowhere. I wish there was a polling function, or that more people would chime in with their ideas, so we could see general consensus. To your counter-counter-counter-counter-counter (is that the right number?) argument: The comet does not seem to kill 90% of the population. And the rest of my argument went unresponded to. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? In my opinion, no. Is it what the developers were intending? I would think not; why would they leave such ambiguous hints? It doesn't have to be blatant; even a mention of a comet (outright, that could not be construed easily as a metaphor) in TN or a virus in IoG would do. But there's not even that. However, due to the nature of the source material, there is no way to end this conclusively. Heck, I could probably say that the dog, Turbo, was the cause for the events in the "trilogy", and be able to construct complex enough reasoning behind it to adequately account for everything. That'd be fun - I might try that. Where is everyone else? Pipe up! I love me a good debate! And Durran of Mirror, I must commend you for injecting some life into this thread. You're very talented in debating. Whew! --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 1/9/2006 10:31:04 PM message detail		I'm here, I'm here, keep your pants on :P >> Like Capetown [...] like why you can't promote Litz to a grey city form These two questions HAVE been answered, it makes me wish we had more so we could have a FAQ, lol. Capetown is a reference to South Cape, the starting town in IoG (which turns out to be the same place in the end). Litz, on the other hand, seems to (seems to) be a hole in the game's development - the designers simply never got around to mapping/scripting/stocking-the-shops of the town's third incarnation, so they simply modified Keinz's percentages to match the new town. As for the comet... To argue whether or not the comet is present in TN, one should not forget what we know about the comet (not just what we know about the virus)! I, personally, still think that the Comet might be the Moon, but I have yet to check IoG's skies to confirm or deny this. The light of the comet, as Olman tells us, speeds up time, causing mutation in those bathed in it. This, taken with the Moon Tribe's evidence, tells us that the comet takes a long route, passing earth routinely and bathing it in all-destroying light (possibly not all the time, as mentioned by the game the comet's light was used at times by the people). However, this constitutes a major flawed arguement - that being that time does not mutate. The arguments are thus that Olman is right, meaning evolution works differently in the SB universe (possibly like it does in EVO) or the comet is "just magical", or that Olman and the other souls' Fantasy/Mideival mindset simply can't comprehend the truth - perhaps mutagens, or radioactives. The only evidence that support the theory of "mutating light" in IoG is Shadow - the Ultimate Warrior made of the comet's light. There is more evidence in IoG of the mutagen theory than the "Light" or "Dark Energy" thoery. In TN, we encounter the virus that for some reason I want to call the "Jabberwocky" but I think that's from a text game I played months ago about an amnesiac, lol, nvmd. The virus stems from before armageddon, and wiped out 90% of life on earth. We see it in action: at Neotokio. But wait... how does it work at Neotokio? Sepia. The poor citizens of Neotokio - wiped out by a colour scheme! Tragedy! But seriously, the colour spreads like liquid, and fills the area, killing everyone who steps to the surface. Everyone below the surface is fine, note not only the girl and Liem but the man who steps out later. Terragnima supports none of the light energy theory: Ark is probably immune to the virus because of the spring water in Evegreen - he cannot be immune to the light because he's only the Dark half of the Hero! No, Terranigma only sides with the airborne plague, check it out: - The plague at Neotokio spreads like gas, not light. - The plague at Neotokio makes its way into the underground, though not past the heavy metal sewer door. - The plague at Neotokio can be circumvented by a team from Freedom - probably in clean suits, not in time suits! - The plague at Neotokio strikes ONLY Neotokio, not the whole world as is comet-typical - The plague prior to armgeddon kills only 90% of the population, also quite unlike the comet or, for that matter, light (In the future, 10% of us will live like moles! No, wait...) So that's it, right? The plague is clearly an airborne virus, and the comet theory is over, right? Or does it? After all, there is a lot shaky about the "comet's light" argument.
Timberwulf Posted 1/9/2006 10:31:19 PM message detail		If it's all the same to all of you, though, I'm gonna stick with my "The comet is the moon" theory. The only reason I'm sitting with that one is the simple fact that IoG was not written with TN in mind, so I'm willing to take it at face value. Doing so: I accept that the Light caused the mutations in IoG and having proved to myself that the Light is not involved in TN, I can seperate them. If you can come up with a way to link the games, please do so, I'll be thrilled, but don't leave IoG's facts out of it completely! And remember: you decide if Olman and the computer are telling the truth... or just what they think is the truth. After all, Olman doesn't have the brains to explain microrganisms, but the computer's authors don't have the scientific basis to say "dark energy". Good hunting...
Phoenix Fist Posted 1/11/2006 6:39:47 AM message detail		Can't wait to read all this when i get steady internet access. --- SIGN THE ING PETITION!!. http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=7&topic=20140880
nepheliad Posted 1/12/2006 9:26:02 PM message detail		@ Timberwulf - See, this is why the more people present, the better the quality of the discourse. While we'd fallen into the trap of debating semantics, we overlooked some obvious points. However, not to retract my position or anything, but I did note a few possible flaws in your thoughts. ---- Ark is probably immune to the virus because of the spring water in Evegreen - he cannot be immune to the light because he's only the Dark half of the Hero!.....The plague at Neotokio makes its way into the underground, though not past the heavy metal sewer door. - The plague at Neotokio can be circumvented by a team from Freedom - probably in clean suits, not in time suits!--- Well, it can be argued that light couldn't penetrate them, just as air couldn't, though that'd be a weak argument. And I think the first statement needs a little elaboration - how did you come to that conclusion? I never did reach a conclusion as to how Ark was immune to the virus. BTW, the virus is called Asmodeous. The biggest flaw I've found is this - I simply fail to see how a virus can be carried by a comet into the Earth's atmosphere without collision. Or is the virus a metaphor? That's more of a stretch than "dark star" being the comet. There's just not enough evidence of the linkage and too much to the contrary for me, but it still boils down to semantics and opinion. Great post, Timberwulf. I'd been hoping you'd post again; you're one of the finest on this board. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Durran of the Mirror Posted 1/13/2006 3:14:48 PM message detail		Well, comets do trail a lot of debris. There are plenty of diseases (like anthrax) whose spores can survive for long periods of time, even under the most extreme circumstances (like extreme heat or lack of atmosphere). The comet could have peppered the planet. As for Ark being immune, he's probably just one of the few who are immune, like the young girl and Leim. And the water in Evegreen only protected Ark from the noxious fumes exuded by the parasite in Ra. The fumes were gasses, not microorganisms. If they were microorganisms, Ark wouldn't have just woken up outside the boss entrance like he did. --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
Durran of the Mirror Posted 1/13/2006 3:18:25 PM message detail		And I appreciate your compliment, nepheliad. You're very good yourself. And yes, I realize I've made a liar of myself. XD Oh well, I can't resist a seasoned (and courteous, at that) debate. --- Ostrogoths and Visigoths > today's "goths"-me. I agree. I'd like to see today's goths try to sack Rome.-Adrastos
nepheliad Posted 1/13/2006 5:40:07 PM message detail		Neither can I; a debate in which both or all sides are respectful has proven rare, so they are all the more cherished. And your arguments are top-notch. Hey, I was the first to hypocrisy and lying, and to a point which I brought up, no less! So if anyone should be going XD, it should be me. And that's basically what I thought about the water in Evergreen, but I didn't have the time to confirm it. About the comet trail, though - the debris would disintegrate upon entry into the Earth's atmosphere, along with the viroids it carried. Also, a comet can't do such a close-ranged fly-by; the Earth's gravitational pull would shift it into a collision trajectory. Furthermore, it'd take a high concentration of viruses on a comet to cause a epidemic, which is highly improbable. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 1/13/2006 5:50:28 PM message detail		Good point, both of you, I retract the Evegreen Water theory. Hmm, immunity to Asmodeus (we can call it that when we're not arguing one way or another, I think) might be related to just natural immunity. Let's examine the chain of events. The door to the sewers is unlocked. We can assume this is the case because someone, on their routine trip down there, simply left it open. Or that Ark just isn't aware of some kind of "doorknob jostling" technique that the little girl is. Whatever the reason, the door was unlocked enough to let the girl and Liem through. Beruga attacks, killing whoever normally locks the sewers or what have you. Oh, and erm... everyone else in town. The little girl and Liem end up in the sewers. [thinks and pauses] Yes, the two of them must be immune to the virus. There's no reason for the lion to be loose unless the Curio shop owner has kicked the bucket, I think. The girl would never run into the monster-infested, stinky sewers unless she started there before the attack (unlikely) or if she went there while being chased by a lion. They, and Ark, must be part of that 10% survival odds. Ark arrives and collects the police comm, the girl has the other end of it... why? Scalped from a dead cop, a parent or stranger? Found at the bottom of the sewers? Somehow, someway... the little girl gets passed that giant green robot in the Sewers and Ark rescues her. A team from Freedom arrive and save the pair after Ark does a "Not being there when things finally go down" shtick. The city is and remains trapped in an aging photograph from the nineteenth century.
Timberwulf Posted 1/13/2006 5:53:12 PM message detail		Thinking about it though, Yomi may have had a hand in Ark's immunity. After all, he wants Ark whole again so he can finally wipe out the hero. DG may or may not be aware of this fact, but neither of them had any reason to protect Leim and the girl... bioagents and evolving light don't likely effect the stone so leaving it out in the open would have actually been ideal.
Snow_rock Posted 1/23/2006 7:49:32 AM message detail		i do remember Beruga calling for D. gaia. so i guess those two guys are comrades. maybe, D. Gaia asked Beruga to make the virus in such a way that it won't affect Ark. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Timberwulf Posted 1/25/2006 8:24:34 PM message detail		But the Asmodeus attack occurs after Ark is no longer needed :S.
kain50bc Posted 2/6/2006 7:23:28 AM message detail		heh.. good argument.. sorry i missed it all owing to my lack of interest in the GameFAQ boards until tonight (though you guys look into it a hell of a lot deeper than i ever have) timberwulf.. sorry but how can yomi provide ark with the immunity? he doesnt do much in the game besides be your cursor and offer some hints sometimes? I like the idea but theres not much for it... and as for the comet/beruga/dark star talk... i'm stumped... as far as i can see, beruga is just some sick scientist promoting a 'religion' (ie dark gaia's) but instead turning everyone into... mutants (not zombies, i read that bit :P ). --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Snow_rock Posted 2/7/2006 8:13:41 AM message detail		maybe Ark is already immune from the start. Besides, Ark is from the underworld, not from light gaia's world --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Hyper Ace2790 Posted 2/8/2006 7:49:11 PM message detail		Cries I want a sequel so bad. --- Go to my Sonic the Hedgehog website, The Sonic World, at http://www.thesonicworld.net. We have music, games, music videos, info, and much more!
Phoenix Fist Posted 2/9/2006 1:17:43 AM message detail		Why isn't there one? --- DDR...I love it
Snow_rock Posted 2/9/2006 7:34:31 AM message detail		Like I always say.The fact that there's no sequel makes Terranigma even more beautiful, because of the mystery of what happened. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
Timberwulf Posted 2/16/2006 4:44:08 PM message detail		Oh, the Dark Star debate isn't over Beruga's motives, it's over his means, and whether or not they tie into Illusion of Gaia. There isn't a sequel because the game never really caught on. And even if there was a sequel, it would fall into the same, loosely connected pattern the other games in the series do.
nepheliad Posted 2/17/2006 10:36:28 PM message detail		Actually, from my perceptions, it's more that it wasn't given a chance. I was not particularly impressed with SB or IoG; the series and other games created by the same team up to TN weren't exactly stellar. Not to say that they were not solid games, but simply that they weren't up to the caliber that would mark a series worthy of continuation. However, TN probably had the potential of greater appeal; after all, it had a more polished gameplay system and story, among other things. That it does command a sizable cult following at this time speaks of it's high quality. Yet, it never received adequate attention, probably due to the poor reception of its predecessors. Bad marketing and management has downed many a series, video game or otherwise. It wasn't even released here (much to my chagrin, as no one I know even recall hearing of it). Though one could argue that all of us fans of TN have marginalistic tastes, I suppose. Any Europeans or Australians want to shed some light on the marketing (or lack thereof) that TN received in those regions? I'm going on hearsay. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
kain50bc Posted 2/18/2006 12:42:46 AM message detail		As an Aussie... i would like to say that i'm amazed (now) that it was available to rent back in the day. Was a fluke i came across it. Hell, games are barely advertised on tv here, the last was kingdom hearts. i dont know if you get tv commercials of games over there... --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
nepheliad Posted 2/18/2006 8:16:21 PM message detail		I don't mean television ads; in the states, the ones that air tend to be for FPSs and the like. I got the impression that it was hardly even mentioned in most areas in which it was released. Basically, the buzz intensity, even for the time, was low. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 2/24/2006 9:02:50 PM message detail		This thread is on the second page! rescues promptly posts in every other thread, pushing it back You also have to remember that TG was released at the end of the SNES' life, along with such memorable games as DKC3. What is with the baby in that game, anyways? (buys GBA port anyways). TG had a lot of marketting put into it, really, the German manga and books and stuff. I find it hard to comprehend, really, where all of that stuff came from when the game is now so forgotten. lol, nephalid, I liked IoG and SB. Honest I did. SB is pretty dated though, I'll admit.
nepheliad Posted 2/25/2006 2:58:08 PM message detail		Well, I guess that does count, but it rather depends on whether the comics were released before or after the game. On a different note, are there any Japanese sites devoted to TN? There's a number devoted to Bahamut Lagoon, so I figured that there'd be some, but I've had no luck finding any. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 2/27/2006 4:15:50 AM message detail		I am glad to see that my topic is doing so extremely well. There are actually more people than I that feel for this game. You all own, people. Shadow of the Colossus SPOILERS :-P ... ... ... ... ... I beat Shadow of the Colossus yesterday. The very last part of the ending sequence, follows a bird, flying above the landscape. And this is shortly after the main character has been resurrected. Personally, I think that the development team were inspired by the ending of Terranigma. --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
DeusMortem Posted 2/27/2006 4:30:19 AM message detail		Any Europeans or Australians want to shed some light on the marketing (or lack thereof) that TN received in those regions? I'm going on hearsay. Terranigma wasn't even released in Sweden. :-( I remember I read a review on it in a video game magazine, when I was still young. it looked amazing; sad, and beautiful. --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Dr_Van_Faulk Posted 2/27/2006 4:35:33 PM message detail		Yeah, Terranigma came out in the SNES' dying days (no exaggeration - the PSX was out by then). Actually, it came out the Christmas Street Fighter Alpha 2 and Dixie Kong's Quest came out. Those were the SNES's final moments, and I must say, in the most dramatic way... Terranigma was the most beautiful goodbye to what was probably the greatest era in videogaming. As for marketing, zilch. As I said, the PSX was out, and SNES games never got much advertising space anywhere. Only the game magazines gave it some decent coverage during review time (with great reviews). Y'know.... I've played all the FF's, Chrono Cross, Xenogears, and as wonderful as those games are, reading these forums posts has made me remember how much love I had for Terranigma. It did so much as an RPG... I remember watching the American cities grow full of sky-scrapers with reflective windows, and the second time I played it through I voted for Lush Louis in Paris, and the world's economy became stunted because he was a communist (and a drunk!) What a game. As for the ending, I always wanted to believe it was Ark meeting up with Elle, but since it does definitely state it was a dream, I can only hope that it was Light Ark's thoughts being linked to Dark Ark's dreams. Actually, I'm just wondering.... If you vote for Louis and no cities grow, do the lit-up cities appear in the ending?
DeusMortem Posted 2/27/2006 5:53:25 PM message detail		I, personally, thought it was supposed to be rather obvious that Ark was reincarnated as a bird... Hasn't reincarnation always been a common theme in the series? In any way, I'd prefer it if was just his final dream. By far. Dead heroes are vastly beautifuler. --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 2/27/2006 10:20:21 PM message detail		It was his dream, and it was stated as such. He dreamt his last dream. He takes the form of the bird in the dream, as the bird is free to soar between the earth and the heavens - his creations, in a way. Free of being land-bound, duty, and burden. And dead. A strange, but strikingly beautiful and fitting end to the story, evoking mixed emotions. That is why this ending is unrivaled, to me. That, and that they had the guts to kill off the (not a) main character, who had been very likable, and somehow pull it off in a majestic, graceful manner. That's the pinnacle of emotive portrayal. Well, that's my interpretation. Funny how this topic has come full circle; it won't be long before we go on a tangent though, I'll wager. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Dr_Van_Faulk Posted 2/27/2006 11:45:21 PM message detail		Actually, in the ending..... When the bird is flying and then it eventually lands down in the forest... Is it the bird knocking on Elle's door?
DeusMortem Posted 2/27/2006 11:45:56 PM message detail		Looking back in this thread is like re-living it all again; it makes me sentimental. :-) I used to call my little brother to come see the ending sequence with me. He agrees on that it is the most beautiful video game sequence ever to be witnessed. Terranigma actually inspired him enough to have him make a piano theme, named after the game itself, for the ending. I hope he somehow implements that song into future concerts, to pay tribute to this gem. I shall stand there in the crowd, thinking of the bird soaring the sky. I guess it sounds as if I am pretentious and exaggerating, but Terranigma will probably be the most emotionally overwhelming thing I ever encounter... in my whole life (except for the death of relatives, maybe, but please don't remind me on that). All this drama over a bunch of polygons. ;-) --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Dr_Van_Faulk Posted 2/28/2006 2:37:00 AM message detail		There ain't no polygons in Terranigma! You is well be meanin' sprites, for real. Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self, with my main man GenRaL SkulL-Kroft! Sorry....
DeusMortem Posted 2/28/2006 3:36:46 AM message detail		Yeah, sorry. Pixels. My bad. :-P --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 2/28/2006 3:54:55 PM message detail		Hey, I'm in the same boat, DeusMortem. I'd never been nearly as moved by a fictitious story, and doubt I ever will be. If only more people could witness it! It's quite enlightening, if one devotes some thought to it. It forced me to introspect, question my views on worth, purpose, and the concepts of "good" and "evil". This thread has been a source of high-quality, good-natured debate, and should be archived. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 2/28/2006 4:51:19 PM message detail		I'm very glad to hear that, nepheliad. I too, hope for this topic to be preserved - as long as the person in concern corrects my awful first posts. Lol. Just kidding, it does kind of irritate me at times, but it's just a trifle... I heard you mention Bahamut Lagoon, in a prior post. Have you played it? --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Timberwulf Posted 2/28/2006 5:43:24 PM message detail		From a design perspective, no - it would be too much effort to change the ending because of you voting for Louis. From a historical perspective, also no, as Louis is only really slowing Ark's progression of society, someone will eventually be born who'll fix it. Tangent? I can get you a tangent. Where do you need it? Why didn't Light Gaia talk to Ark at all before the ending. Huh? Huh?!
Keisuke Posted 2/28/2006 9:55:30 PM message detail		You know regardless of the amount of time that has passed when you finish the game, the ending leaves you with the effect that you can't quite forget it, as it's that good of an ending. For me it's been at least 3-4 years since I finished the game and I still can remember the ending as being one of the best from any RPG I have ever played. It also leaves you thinking, what really happened at the very end, as has been discussed in this specific thread, did Ark return or was it something else? Such a great ending... >< --- "Safety Kaijou, IKUSO! . . . Muaramasa Blaster! RAIKOU GIRI!" - Tobia Aronax, Crossbone Gundam
Phoenix Fist Posted 3/1/2006 8:13:06 AM message detail		I would have to say the Secret Of Mana had a gfreat effect on me. I was really really young when i completed it and [SPOILER] - - - - - - seeing the sprite dead at the end made me so emotional. Main characters should not die!! - - - - - - - [/spoilers] --- DDR...I love it
DeusMortem Posted 3/1/2006 9:50:41 AM message detail		All this sentimentality; and here I was, thinking that humans were cold-hearted. ^^ --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Stealthjelly Posted 3/2/2006 4:10:46 PM message detail		Didn't Dark Ark die the moment Light ark was resurrected? If this is right, it leaves room for some interesting speculation. If Dark Ark is a creation of Dark Gaia (as is the whole of Crysta as I understand it), then isn't it ironic that it is he who restores life to the surface, when all Light Ark does really is defeat Dark Gaia, my point being that it is (possibly fitting) irony that Dark Ark, a creation of the self-proclaimed devil, is the one who creates, and Light Ark who destroys. --- All the evil that you've done up to now... repent it, and sleep - Linus, Fire Emblem 7
nepheliad Posted 3/9/2006 9:46:31 PM message detail		Ack. Sorry about the non-contributive stealth bump, but I couldn't have this thread slip through the cracks without archiving it first. It's on page three, for frak's sake. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 3/11/2006 6:55:39 PM message detail		Truly, being "light" doesn't mean you're the good guy. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
DeusMortem Posted 3/14/2006 6:32:27 AM message detail		Truly, being "light" doesn't mean you're the good guy. Seriously, the conception of light vs dark is just another definition of good versus evil. What other substance is there to the term light - to holy? Being illuminative, and materially created out of light? --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 3/14/2006 3:09:50 PM message detail		Which is exactly why the world tends to seem as though it is a garbled mess, concocted by some oddly demented mind. Or not. Who knows? And it's this ambiguity that Terranigma brings across so well that has won it fan acclaim. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 3/14/2006 11:44:24 PM message detail		"Light" Ark is just a means of referring to "Surface" Ark and "Dark" Ark is just a means of referring to "Crystal Blue moulded subterrainian Ark". But for the sake of arguing the terms in their broader sense: The "Light" Hero (Ark, Will, Blazer, Varseth, Nail, Reed, and all the other people who never get mentioned and I may have just made up right now) is the incarnation of the hero designed to tip the scales away from Dark Gaia, s/he is not nessesarily a "Good" Hero.. Will especially had to accomplish several Evil (turning in a slave for a red jewel) and Dark things to accomplish his quest. The words have very different meanings. Likewise, the "Dark" Hero (Ark, Freedan, Rianna, Xavier, there I go again) is the one responsible for tipping the scales away from Gaia. I'd be willing to bet s/he saves a few lives along the way, too. These things happen. waits for someone to misinterperate his post to mean that these fake heroes actually are recorded somewhere
DeusMortem Posted 3/15/2006 3:46:57 AM message detail		What I meant, is that darkness itself, in videogames and such, seldom contains any substance. It's really an abstract term, bred out of the human fear for the dark, for dangers beyond our perception. It's quite easy to picture ice-magic, or fire-magic; A block of ice crashing down on your foes, a burst of flame engulfing them. You have no problem understanding how this could ever cause damage to anyone. There is no value statement behind this, just a matter of different natural elements. Darkness, however, is different. They make a magic somewhat dark in colour, and voila - an evil spell. An element of the dark that isn't evil, kind of loses its substance, since it's seldom darkness - as in an area where sight is limited - itself that is referred to when using the term darkness, but the evil we associate to it. --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
TheCurseOfMe Posted 3/20/2006 1:05:01 PM message detail		I diddn't like the ending, personaly. It Gave me the feeling that whatever god they hold said " Well Ark, you saved the world and all, but i'm turning you into a bird so that you can never actually have a real life! I just don't want the hero around anymore! Leave Elle to her cycling depression, alone in Stockholme! She's only gonna end up completely insane, alone with nothing but 20 cats!" It just seems like the game developers worked so long, and made such a great game to scream out, in a triumphant voice "Screw it!" I hate the ending, if you couldn't tell by now. --- Don't eat the fish!
Timberwulf Posted 3/20/2006 3:57:48 PM message detail		I don't know if this will change your view of the ending, but Ark doesn't turn into a bird, he just dreams that. Instead, he dies because he killed his own creator. There's not much Light Gaia seems to be able to do about it. :S
Snow_rock Posted 3/21/2006 8:32:57 AM message detail		Actually, there is no clear ending at all. The game just ends with Elle going out her door. It doesn't say if she met the bird or whatever. Frankly, we should not always look at stories literally everytime. If that would happen, many stories would be ugly. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
nepheliad Posted 3/21/2006 5:43:00 PM message detail		The bird could be Ark, reincarnated. It could be a manifestation of him in his final dream. It could be symbolism. It could be eye candy. I lean toward the second option, but that doesn't rule out the others, and they don't all contradict each other. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 3/22/2006 1:18:53 PM message detail		This is easily my favourite GameFAQs-thread. Just so you know. ;-) --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Timberwulf Posted 3/23/2006 11:23:03 AM message detail		I've always kind of figured that the bird is literally what the game says it is: a dream. A... particularily enlightened dream (LG?) but a dream nonetheless. I'm not sure if the last scene is a part of it, really.
Rue Posted 3/27/2006 5:36:15 AM message detail		Playing through this game again for the first time in 4-5 (or more) years and then reading this thread got me thinking. Also, being an East Asian Studies major allowed me to see how much Buddhist symbolism is in this game. Kumari is Buddah of course, and reincarnation is obvious. Zen Buddhism is here cause of the balance between Light and Dark, Yin and Yang, etc. The way I see the ending though, is since everyone interacted in a way that fit their previous lives (I shouldn't say everyone but the one instance I have in mind is how Fryda and Royd met up and fell in love again like in the flashback at Astarica) it's only logical to assume that Ark and Elle will be together again. Maybe not right now (i.e. the ending, the knocking coulda been, I dunno, Fryda and Royd surviving) but they would eventually be together again (for all those who dislike the idea of Ark surviving but want him and Elle together. I myself prefer to think that the 2 sides of Ark, light and dark, fused that day at the South Pole and became the true whole hero, both light and dark (or neither) and thus Ark was truly able to defeat a Gaia (Dark Gaia in this case). Then, after all was said and done, the dark Ark faded leaving only light Ark, but light Ark had all the memories of both Arks (notice how in the ending Ark talks to light Yomi as if he were both Yomi's, i.e. saying he had been with him throughout the whole journey and then helped him beat Dark Gaia). Dark Ark had his final dream then was sealed till he was needed again and the light Ark was allowed to return to the surface to be with Elle, where he would live out his days with her, maybe father some children, die, and then eventually down the road be reborn when needed along with Dark Ark. I dunno, just some theories I made based on what was already said and my recent (2 hours ago) re-beating of the game. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
nepheliad Posted 3/27/2006 8:57:00 PM message detail		I dunno, I see no reason to believe that light Ark continued to live upon separation; the game doesn't hint at that. It also detracts from the atmosphere created by the ending. As for Astarica, who knows what that segment was about? My opinions are upthread, but they're not too different from yours. A balance of "light" and "dark" is a common point of many religions and philosophies, and is hardly unique to Buddhism, though they espouse it more readily - heck, it's found. If anything, Ark's defeat of DG is an allegory to the Christian/Zoroastrian/whatever's concept of millennialism, and Ark just started the millennium of peace and tranquility before the end of the world. Except in TN, there isn't a true end to the conflict of light and dark (which are less defined, as well) in sight, and the events are cyclical. Or he fulfilled the role of the divine being and brought about paradise, although I swear that the game said that DG was merely sealed, not destroyed. As an aside, TN seems to present not a defined "light" and "dark", but varying shades of grey. But for simplicity's sake, I guess we can define Light Gaia's side as good. If you think that light Ark returned to the surface, you could draw the allegory further - it's symbolic specifically of Christ's millennial reign, with light Ark representing Christ. Which would allow the further inference (though far stretched) that dark Ark was a sort of Antichrist figure. And this would've been great in the correlations to the Bible thread, but that thread is too off topic. Another aside - if we only consider TN's presentation of "light" and "dark" (which I prefer to ascribe to simply conflict, not "good" or "bad"), we could draw correlations to any number of religions - most have such a concept. It's also usually presented with both sides being fairly equal, as that's something that carries over from human nature; we've an acute sense of duality in ourselves (which is actually much more multi-faceted, and less cut-and-dry; the more I ponder over it, the more sure I am that it is so). Besides, TN bears far more resemblance to many other religions than Buddhism - for one, its presentation of the two divine entities. And it doesn't place any emphasis on enlightenment, only what has been achieved (Yomi's remark to Ark upon reaching the surface world speaks best - "Ark, you can think, but that won't change the world...Nothing will happen if you don't take action). I'm pretty sure you got this (it was one of the few points that the game had cutting clarity ^^;), but just in case you didn't (your post was a little ambiguous at that point), the Ark that was speaking with Yomi at the end was Darkside, so it would follow that he feels Yomi has accompanied him through the entirety of his journey - because he/it did. I always figured that "light" and "dark" Yomis were misnomers; there is only one, and Ark probably figured that out at some point (towards the end). After all, Yomi transcends normal existence, and Yomi doesn't object to Ark's line. I can't think of another way that that'd make sense. What Yomi says makes me think that Yomi is the one in control. Rather odd, but his/its grasp of events seems to be above even that of the Gaian entities. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 3/27/2006 8:58:21 PM message detail		And so, I shall conclude with my two cents on the way things occurred. Yomi is Yomi. No light, no dark. Yomi betrayed Ark in order to motivate him, in that Ark has to be willing to give up his life, and everything he loved. Basically, Yomi's intent was to kill Elle, not Ark. This would then trigger something in Ark, whether it be a turn to Light Gaia's (to avenge; alternatively, he'd already been against DG, but was unable to devote himself to defeating DG because of what he'd lose) or Dark Gaia's side (giving up and going with the plan). Ark chose, obviously, to side with Light Gaia, thus saving the world. Only at the end does he realize Yomi's ploy, but by that time, events have ceased to be malleable, and his anger has dissipated. This scenario does credit Ark with being more insightful than what I'd thought before; he'd have to realize that in defeating Dark Gaia, he'd destroy Crysta. However, he does show depth (and after my recent playthrough, I realized that he had much more depth than I credited him with), and does introspect and contemplate at varying points in the game, so he's not merely charging headlong into things without thinking of their ramifications. Dark Elle's death ultimately served to allow him to relinquish Crysta to do the greater good - save the overworld. All fan conjecture of course, and probably not the best theory out there, but this thread is due for revitalization. Shoot it full of holes, please. ^_^ Not exactly a cohesive post, but when addressing several ideas in one post, it gets messy. I hope it can be deciphered. Whew. First post over limit! I must truly be infatuated with the game. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Rue Posted 3/28/2006 2:40:44 AM message detail		Your theory about Yomi not being light or dark but just Yomi is interesting and a way to interperet Yomi, but if you follow the game script Yomi himself says something along the lines of: that was Dark Yomi, I'm Light Yomi (granted he could just be saying that, whatever). As for the religious aspects, I can see some Christian reference in this game (I am Roman Catholic if anyone cares btw) and what I'd see is that Dark Ark (or just Ark in general, light, dark, gray) is like Christ in a way in that he comes to a world gone astray and has to set things right. If there is an antichrist type figure I'd say it'd be Beruga (Mosque just screamed Antichrist to me btw). He came and got the trust and following of people and then sided with Dark Gaia (which the game itself says that humans would call "devil") so in that respect he is like the antichrist. Now for Buddhism, I don't know too much about the religion to be honest (I study it in some classes but like I said I'm R.C. and not Buddhist so the interest is merely for stuff like this) but Kumari is clearly a Buddah. They talk about him speeding along that path of knowledge or understanding or whatever farther then anyone else, they speak of a second Kumari in Chapter 4 (i.e. the first one died and Kumari was reborn in an enlightened person to further teach the world) and the really obvious point is he exists in India (Tibet actually) which I'm pretty sure is where Buddhism started (I need to pay more attention in class). But to be honest it's not a big deal and the topic isn't really religion (like you said, there is an off-topic thread for this discussion). Now, the ending and my theory. Who else would knock on the door? It cleary states (as you yourself have said I believe) that the bird sequence is a dream and nothing more, Dark Ark's last dream. It is true that at the end of that dream the bird swoops down into the forest and then the scene switches to Elle's house, but I still think that's a separate sequence (the Elle thing) from the bird dream (perhaps Ark was flying to Elle's house in the dream cause he wanted his dream to end with the one he loved, I dunno). Now my question is who knocked on the door. I know you could say any number of people, but to be honest why even put such a scene at the end if it wasn't implyed that Ark was finally able to be with Elle for the happy ending? I agree that by leaving it vague it made the ending so great in that anyone can have the ending almost how they want (if you want White Wind to be with Elle you could argue it was him knocking, as there is no evidence against it, lol). But I guess my arguement is why go to the trouble to make such a scene at the end knowing that everyone will be hoping Ark and Elle get together at some point (this life or the next) unless it's Ark that knocks (Light Ark, Dark Ark, Gray Ark, whatever, just "an" Ark). To sum up, I think (hope, lol) that Ark and Elle got together in the end cause I'm a sap for happy endings (which is why I believe that Fyda and Royd survived that ".000000001% chance of survival plane crash"). I can't prove my point really, but neither can it really be disproven as is the same for most if not all of the theories in this thread. Sorry if I said anything really stupid too btw cause I tend to lose my thoughts in the middle of sentences. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
nepheliad Posted 3/28/2006 10:34:04 PM message detail		He did say that, but let me wallow in the interesting construct I've just made for myself, m'kay? Besides, Yomi is a deceiver, so who knows. He's/its more likely to lie than Ark is to make such a grievous error as to address light Yomi as he would dark. Now, see, I've slotted Beruga as more of "The Beast", though that probably doesn't fit chronologically. Certainly, the Antichrist interpretation is more obvious, but I'm a stickler for the odd, which makes one think. Kumari is Buddhist because he's in Tibet (or rather, Lhasa, in the general area of the Tibetian plateau, in the game). He's largely based off of the Dalai Lama. He's a Buddha for the same reason that Will build a bi-plane and Litz has a church with a crucifix - to act as a point of real-world correlation. I don't see any reason to put any special meaning to his Buddhist nature. BTW, I believe Siddhartha was a prince from a small kingdom (Lumbini or something like that) situated in modern day Nepal, but I could be wrong. Same region, though. I'm Chinese-American, and a few family friends are Buddhist, which is where I glean my information. I think they practice Mahayana Buddhism. Indeed, that's why the ending of Terranigma is so good; its ambiguity allows people to interpret it as they like. I'm a sucker for bittersweet/double-edged blade endings, and would prefer to put some measure of permanence on Ark's death. I also happen to think that there is no way Fyda and Royd survived that crash, so you know my stance. I personally like to think that light Elle saw an apparition, or that Ark was actually seeing through the eyes of and controlling a bird who lives in the overworld. It's sweet, but sorrowful at once, as is the end of the game. Dark Ark (argh, inadvertent rhyme) drew the short straw, either way. He did most of the hard work, and light Ark reaps the rewards. In a sense, that's even more saddening for dark Ark; he dies knowing that someone on the surface is living the life that he deserves through the fruits of his toil, while he evanesces into crystal blue, discorporated and for all purposes, dead. And I am of the opinion that light and dark are two distinct entities, just to clarify. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Rue Posted 3/29/2006 12:10:24 AM message detail		Hmm, I guess my stance is that Dark Ark and Light Ark aren't such separate entities in the end, and that perhaps Dark Ark's feelings and thoughts and basically soul (even though I'm not sure he or anyone in Crysta has a soul as they are just created from crystal blue, I'm a little hazy on the whole aspect of who has what souls and what they are used for). I'd like to think that although it's Light Ark's body and physical manifestation up on the planet, it's Ark's (Light and Dark and Gray) feelings and emotions and love for Elle that allowed him to continue on (or something sentimental like that, haha). As for the Buddhist stuff, since it is a Japanese game there are at least some references to Buddhism (granted not every game outta Japan has them but it is in some games and that country is mainly Buddhist). The whole thing of reincarnation isn't a symbol from Christianity, but Buddhism (as far as I know only Buddhism but I could be very very wrong on that). The fact that the game is or isn't Buddhist though is not of much importance and as always opinion. If anything Terranigma has religious themes from lots of different places. In response to your view on the ending though, I feel that would be good but just too sad. If you've ever watched Cowboy Bebop (COWBOY BEBOP SPOILERS) the ending was very sad but very good and even though it would have been nice to see Spike and Julia some how make it through those last two episodes and get together, I prefer the way it ended (/COWBOY BEBOP SPOILERS). I guess your theory is plausible with the Ark entity getting one last visit to Elle's house before fading forever (i.e. his dream ended with him in bird form swooping down to her house where his dream became partial reality and he got his one last chance to say goodbye to Elle as a spirit before departing). That is actually a good ending and I think I could accept that too. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
nepheliad Posted 4/1/2006 9:02:43 PM message detail		I'm a speed-reader, so thanks for the spoiler to Cowboy Bebop. I couldn't possibly stop in time. >< Oh, well. Terranigma does incorporate ideas from various ethnicities and religions. It does a fair job at representing the world as we know it. And certainly, most of what we discuss is subjective to personal opinion. Not much to discuss about definites. Hinduism, along with a number of other religions, also feature reincarnation. Some sects of Christianity do so as well. But these are trivial notes, really, unless we're discussing a more explicit correlation. Who knows what a "soul" is? Definitions vary from person to person. A rather vague concept. Also, how do you explain the two Arks' correspondence? They exist outside of each other. Upon merging, dark appears dominant. If we consider the Ark we see in Astarica to be light Ark, then their personality appears to be somewhat different, too. But far be it from me to try to sway you against what interpretation gives you the most appreciation for the game. Nothing should detract from the power of the ending, and certainly not something like this. For the sake of a fun debate, though, I invite you to sway me. I seem incapable of losing any of my fervent adoration of this game, seeing as how I've posted almost daily on this board since I joined. Other people drop in briefly, leaving their impression, then leave, but I seem to be a constant. Some very interesting ideas have been brought up by the former, though. BTW, romantic, aren't we? ^^ A charming conversationalist, to be sure. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Rue Posted 4/1/2006 9:36:29 PM message detail		I apologize for those Cowboy Bebop spoilers, lol, I figured since it's been around on CN for so long most have seen it already and those who haven't probably aren't interested enough to care about the spoilers. Now, about the religious stuff, I figured that there are many influences for this game since it is a game based in our real world. Whether the creators were influenced one way or the other is a topic for debate that will probably never be verified as there is no way to know for sure without contacting the creators somehow and asking them directly. Now, about the ending and the Arks, I can see that they are 2 different Arks, and I also agree that after the fusion Dark Ark does seem to be most dominant (i.e. Light Ark just provided the body, but even then it doesn't explain why Ark still had to disappear if he now had a real body and no longer was made of crystal blue). I was actually a little confused about that, what exactly happens there. As far as I know, Dark Ark was knocked out for some reason when they tried to fuse, and somehow Light Ark ended up with Elle as a baby in Storkholm. How did he end up there (of course Light Gaia or something could have dropped him off at Elle's door but still). Also, is it confirmed that he is in Light Ark's body there? Does it even mention it? (I have it saved right before that part so I can always rewatch it I guess to get the facts) Anyways, if he's Light Ark there, then it must be Dark Ark's soul in that body. Or perhaps they fused and Dark Ark's personality took over as the dominant expressed personality but Light Ark's soul is still in there with him (maybe as an inner voice? I don't remember, did Light Ark ever speak after that? Also, how did he communicate with Dark Ark throughout the game if that voice you heard once in awhile was indeed Light Ark talking to you?) I guess I'm just posing a lot of questions and not really answering many, but I'm interested to hear what you think. As for being a romantic...it's true but don't tell anyone, haha. I prefer endings like that where the leading male character gets together with the leading female character. I just wanna apologize for this half-assed post btw as I'm doing like 3 things at once right now while writing this. It is really fun to discuss this game with you though, I'm really enjoying it and since I really have a decent amount of time on my hands nowadays I'll be checking in with this board quite often. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
nepheliad Posted 4/1/2006 11:03:42 PM message detail		I've only just started watching Cowboy Bebop at a friend recommendation, but it's fine, and your expectation was perfectly reasonable. Yep, my sentiments exactly. It doesn't focus on any one religion, though Biblical allusions are more prominent than most; many are represented. Also, most of the profound points it makes are universal. With the Light and Dark Ark merger, I'd always figured that it was Dark Ark's material body infused with Light Ark's Light Gaian energy, which explains why Dark Ark had to disappear - his body was composed of Crystal Blue. This is also part of my justification for Light Ark not existing after Dark Gaia's defeat; he had no corporeal body. I don't have a save there, having accidentally overwrote it, so I'll be waiting for you to confirm it. Somehow, though, I get the feeling that there won't be a conclusive answer in the game. ^^ As for dominance, I don't know why. Perhaps Dark Ark had more of a motive? Dark Elle was killed by Dark Gaia, after all. Or maybe it's that Light Ark is somehow unworthy of being the hero, and Dark Ark's soul/spirit/personality/whatever is? That would really drive home the point of Light and Dark merely being the name for sides in a conflict of the deities, instead of cut and dry "good" and "evil". There was some talk of this during the Astarica discourse on this thread, so check that out, if you're interested. I'm too tired to reiterate at the moment. Basically - Body - Dark Ark Energy - Light Ark (or both) Spirit/Soul - Dark Ark (dominant) Light Ark only speaks twice, as far as I can recall - once immediately before they fuse, and once right after they separate. They note that it is the same voice, but nothing further; this was noted in both cases, but not during any other point in the game in which Ark hears a voice from within. It'd have been cool if Ark was in correspondence with his Light counterpart the whole time, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Also, (and this is a strange, obscure note) the sound that accompanies the text for the dialogue in both cases was the same as that which offset Ark's lines. As for how he got to Storkholm, gulls. They do an awful lot of this business in Terranigma, and what with them seemingly able to be controlled by L.G. (plane crash), it's quite likely that one picked up the infant and dropped him off in Storkholm. I could be totally off, though. Hey, I started off my posting run in this thread with a veritable bombardment of questions, and most people seem to, just to get acquainted with the ideas that had already been knocked about. You've come in far more well-versed and collected in your thoughts than I did. Another more or less regular poster is more than welcome, but few actually end up being one. I just am one, unintentionally. I suppose everyone's got to have some quirky obsession or another; I merely happen to have chosen an obscure one. Sad, really, since this means I'm one of very few. LOL. I'd say it's our secret, but this is an online forum, and anyone dropping in would see your admission. ^^; Besides, romantics are deep thinkers worthy of praise. And even more admirable is their love lives, of course. ^_^ I'm not much of one, myself, which is odd, considering. I must say though, there is something quite timeless about it. Your post was certainly not "half-assed". If this was a "half-assed" post, then most posts are. But I know how it feels to multi-task; I'm doing three things myself, concurrently, at the moment. It's been quite an enlightening discourse! First one in some time; thank you for absolving the haze of apathy that had begun to permeate this board. Haven't had a discussion quite this in-depth for a while - too long, in my opinion. It's been too long. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Rue Posted 4/2/2006 12:20:05 AM message detail		Hmmm, this brings up another question I have. Why revert to the form of a child? Why not just keep Ark in his normal teenage form? It would make him less vunerable and the gulls would have no trouble carrying him as they've carryed fully-grown Ark before without any problems. That whole scene just sorta confused me (although I must admit I got goosebumps when that music kicked in and Ark resumed his true form). As for the Light Ark/Dark Ark business, I find the things about both sides of Ark interesting. Like I said before I have to replay that part (I'll probably do so tomorrow when I get some time) but I don't remember a huge difference in personality between the "Arks". I could be wrong of course, but even so I don't think it'd be too hard to have a melding of personalities; basically a merging of memories maybe? It depends on how different the "Arks" are. As is the case of Elle, they are two separate people with two separate bodies and personalities (sort of, in the end both Elle's were nice people who loved Ark, but the Princess was just a little standoffish at first). But for Ark, he is the hero, and he is the only one who was able to fuse with his other half so he is the enigma (the Terranigma, hahahaha, sorry, I had to). I still want to believe that Ark (whether Dark Ark or just Ark (formerly known as Gray Ark) got to be with Elle at the end, but if what you say is true about the body of the hero being indeed Dark Ark (which makes sense, I think I just read or misread that it was Light Ark's body they took somewhere in this topic) then it a little impossible for them to be together as Dark Ark's body is just Crystal Blue. But my theory (which has no backing whatsoever so I understand it's full of holes) is that somehow when they merged, Ark was able to obtain some sort of real or at least different body and thus would be able to live on even after Crysta is gone. Now, for another unrelated note, in the end when you beat Dark Gaia and return to Crysta it is dark, empty, and lacking Crystal Blue. I'm just curious, since the Crysta that you play in right before the ending is an illusion given to Ark by Light Gaia or at least not real, (since Elle is supposed to be dead) does that mean Ark is technically already dreaming at this point? Or is he merely surrounded by illusions? I have to apologize for my weak points and my rambling in the previous paragraph, I'm running out of points to argue with you because we are slowly agreeing on things, haha. Even though I just completed this game for the second time less then a week ago I have forgotten so much, lol. I have to say though, it is indeed fun to talk about this great game with you, and I hope that more people will come to this board and specifically this topic and voice their ideas to spice things up a bit. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
Stealthjelly Posted 4/2/2006 5:21:06 PM message detail		Hi, I hope you don't mind, but there's a few ideas I'd like to throw in for consideration. When you see Ark as a baby, that is the newborn Light Ark (or the "complete" Ark depending on which theory you think fits), and when Dark Yomi orders Dark Elle to murder him, Ark suddenly grows up (I don't remember this part of the game very well so i can't remember if there was a reason for that) into the Hero that Dark Yomi and Dark Gaia certainly didn't want to survive, probably because of the danger Ark posed to them. --- I love this showwwww -Gir, Invader Zim
Stealthjelly Posted 4/2/2006 5:23:57 PM message detail		I really want to put a lot more, but I'm really strapped for time. I'll try to post again tomorrow. --- I love this showwwww -Gir, Invader Zim
nepheliad Posted 4/2/2006 6:43:35 PM message detail		Also strapped for time, but I'll toss this out: I personally always figured that it was Dark Ark's body, not Light Ark's. The rebirth thing is only to allow the body to accept the new energy and spirit infused in him. If it's Light Ark's body, then Dark Ark really wasn't necessary for this leg of the journey. Also, after the final battle, we don't see Dark Ark being expelled from the body, but Light Ark. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 4/2/2006 6:53:13 PM message detail		I have to admit, you've all brought up so much that I just can't follow it very well :D. Kumari is an interesting point in the Soul Blazer series. Personally, I've always believed that the series shows a sort of "Silent God" view of the world. As Terranigma's opening shows, LG came to be called God and DG came to be called Devil. To me, that opening sentence corraborates what I've picked up from the other games: that the religeons of the world, all pointing in different directions, all end up at Light Gaia and Dark Gaia (at least in the world presented in the games). Kumari is one of the few religeous figures that speak during the game, and his doctorine seems to slide nicely into what I would assume to be Light Gaias, and from there I draw my point. How the SB cosmos works is a mystery we've tried to solve a few times, but the only thing we seem to know is that it involves Light Gaia, Dark Gaia and The Hero. My view of the Soul Blazer mythology has always been a bit skewed, because as I once said I once made it all clear... but had accidentally included E.V.O.: The Search for Eden into the mix. Without it, a lot of my older theories falter and collapse, but nevertheless I believe there are strong connections between the Soul Blazer games, at least. Is Blazer The Hero? Perhaps the first Hero? I doubt it, and I have my reasons, but the first tastes of the spiritual seem to appear in this game, things like Ressurection, a theme that is most prominant in that game than the others because some of the people seem to know about it (a Mountain Boy promises to love his girlfriend into their next life, I believe, etc. The man and his wife-who-became-a-goat, etc). The only person we can really put down as the first Hero is Will, though again I disagree (I think Freedan was The Hero in a previous life, it's just a little spot of colour I add to the story). But he is not addressed as The Hero until a crucial moment: <spoilers, et all, re Illusion of Gaia> after he combines with Kara. Only The Hero can restore balance to the For-- urm... Gaia's powers, but they seem to select their candidates long before the coronation, the combination of a balance of Light and Dark. When Will and Kara combine, they form into Shadow (instantly), blessed with Blazer's power of The Pheonix (to continue what you've said in previous posts, with Will as the body and dominate, but with a combined spirit). Given what we've seen from Illusion of Gaia, it's possible that Ark was completely unable to defeat Light Gaia without fusing. What's my point? Errr.... I lost it :(. I think I was gonna say something about the constant themes of ressurrection meaning that everyone will be together again some day, and that Ark's Body and Dominance are probably Dark, but his soul is probably a merger, not Light Ark's. Man, I gotta stop losing these thoughts mid-writeup.
nepheliad Posted 4/2/2006 8:09:23 PM message detail		So, then, you espouse the theory that the games are connect by more than vague concepts? The connections are tenuous at best, from what I can see. They seem more like distinct worlds, each with its own history and heroes. Perhaps the Gaian entities are locked in conflict (or, perhaps, having an amusing cosmic game of of their design) over multiple worlds? That's about as far as I am willing to go with the linkage of the three games. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Rue Posted 4/2/2006 8:28:56 PM message detail		I'm glad to see more people posting ideas again! ^^ Anyways, about the connections between the games, I could see that, but I'd have to replay the first two as I haven't played Soul Blazer in about 2 years, and I haven't played Illusion of Gaia since it came out way back when. I can see there being a distant link between all the games as they are indeed labeled as being all in the same series, but as for a solid link, I dunno. Now, once again with the Light Ark Dark Ark thing. I've been lazy this weekend and haven't checked the actual game but what evidence does everyone have for saying which body it is? I could see it going either way, but that would also dictate a lot of things that happened in the ending. For example, if it's Light Ark's body, then why does Ark need to return to the underworld in the end? With Light Ark's body he should be able to stay above ground. Also, if he did indeed just leave the body of Light Ark, then there would still exist the body of Light Ark above ground. That could be who knocked on Elle's door, I dunno. Now as for forgetting your point half-way through typing, I do that way way waaaaaay too much here, especially typing all these huge posts, lol. But regardless, it's nice to hear from more people about this ^^ --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
Timberwulf Posted 4/3/2006 5:54:17 PM message detail		Yes, I do think there's sort of a constant theology spread throughout the three games, though you never really learn much about it (your job is that of a janitor, really, to clean up the mess your employers make in their Deitical family fued (I... can't help it. "Top 5 Items Found In a Paganistic Shrine"). This doesn't seem to spread to Actraiser, which is probably my biggest argument to them being seperate series, even though I don't like to argue that :P. Both Arks would have to return to the Underworld because they are the Hero. They have a job to finish. It's really no more remarkable on the surface than Mario going after Bowser or Sonic after Eggman (that's his name nowadays, right? Wasn't it Robotnick once?). I'll admit, the plot where the plans are foiled and the heroes still have a villain to chase are rarer, but I don't think any of video games' annals of heroes would pass up the chance to show the repeating villains the errors of their ways. Diddy Kong: K. Rool is getting away! Donkey Kong: Diddy, let him go. He's just gonna do it again, whether we chase him or not. Diddy: Big man, this isn't for him kidnapping the stars of the previous game... this is for that bonus barrel with the Zingers, Claptraps and ten second time limit. Donkey: ....oh, he's going down. [charges into the Lost World] Um... yes, I did just create a scene for a new DKC game, why? :P Who's body is it? I suppose you could argue three things: Light Ark's, Dark Ark's and a new, amalgamated body. Unfortunately, all the evidence could be interperated ambiguously: The body of Shadow formed in IoG could have been a "New Shadow", not "Shadow, a subsidiary of WillCorp". The fact that Light Gaia says Ark is going to fade because of the Crystal Blue content of his being could be referring to his soul, along (or does ole' LG refer specifically to Ark's body?). The fact that the Hero had to be reborn seems to point towards the amalgamated body, but even that can be interperated either way. (Note that the amalgamated body could, arguably, also fade on account of the Crystal Blue medium of half of it... the results wouldn't be pretty, either :S).
nepheliad Posted 4/13/2006 11:23:51 PM message detail		I've got some catching up to do on this thread, and there is simply no way that I'm going to let this slip through the cracks. It is far too worthy a thread for that to happen. So yeah, a semi-eloquently worded bump post. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 4/14/2006 6:48:01 AM message detail		This thread remains here, as a constant reminder - for me, and as good as the rest of the GameFAQs community - of how garbled my English once was. Kind of irritating, really. You get a little rusty when you haven't been using a language for years, I tell you. I guess most of the flaws in concern are typos - and not a product of lack of knowledge, or such - in any way, though, but it still bugs me... --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 4/14/2006 10:55:17 AM message detail		Oh? Are you not a native speaker of English, then? Or have you emigrated elsewhere from an English-speaking country? Regardless, you're quite proficient, especially in comparison to many I've encountered online. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Fox Fire Posted 4/14/2006 11:46:11 PM message detail		Hey, here's a bump for you! I beat the game last night. I also thought the ending was sad. That says a lot because a lot of the "famous video game tearjerkers" had no effect on me. This, however, did. sniff It's making me verklempt! Talk amongst yourselves! I'll give you a topic: Duran Duran was neither Duran nor Duran. Discuss. Okay, here's what I thought (yeah, spoilers and whatnot): Dark!Ark's fate: It may be wishful thinking, but I thought that Dark!Ark would be reincarnated. All the people of Crysta had souls, it's just that their bodies were made of a different material. If they have souls, they'd get reincarnated - they'd just all be reborn on the surface as flesh and blood creatures. This includes Ark. Plus, there was everybody (especially Dark!Elle) saying "we'll meet again" and stuff. Whether he becomes a bird in the next life or not is up to you. The knock at the door: Yeah, I also thought it was Light!Ark coming to meet Light!Elle. After you beat Dark Gaia, Light!Ark says, "Let's return to our own worlds." Light!Ark also wouldn't have died because he was flesh and blood. (Anybody find it ironic that Light!Ark is dead for most of the game, but is alive at the end - but it's the opposite for Dark!Ark? Here's a question, what do you think initially killed Light!Ark?) The cycle: I had also thought that there were heroes before Ark. However, I don't think any of them got as far as Ark. I think they were all killed after restoring civilization - either by Beruga or something else. I thought of this when everybody said Ark was "the only one outside the loop," the way Dark Gaia was cackling when Ark got KO'd by Beruga's robots, and the way Dark Gaia says, "You know too much" at the end. Ark was the only one to finally break the vicious cycle and teach Dark Gaia to behave himself. Now of course, why would Dark Gaia encourage the surface to be rebuildt? Probably so he can have fun tearing it down again. It's kinda like riding the same roller coaster over and over again. You know what will happen, but it's still fun. He probably lets people revive the world every once in awhile when he gets bored so he can stomp all over it again. He just wasn't expecting Ark to survive the process - or combine with his original model. Magirocks: I don't think they "disappeared" after Dark Gaia was contained; I just think ending didn't include them because there was no need for them. They're a natural mineral, so there would be no reason for them to vanish. --- "I CAN'T SPELL YOU!" -Strong Mad
DeusMortem Posted 4/15/2006 8:57:46 AM message detail		nepheliad, I am from Sweden. My English was rusty by the time I created this topic, as I hadn't studied - or barely encountered, apart from through videogames - it for many years. Let me ask you, have you got msn or such? --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 4/15/2006 2:31:30 PM message detail		@ Timberwulf - Hmm. After playing through the varying games, I'm left with the impression that SB and IoG may be in the same world, but that the rest are unrelated. Perhaps they are manipulated by the same entities, but I'm hesitant to say that they are the same world. Similar theology is inadequate as proof; many stories would be set in the same world on that basis (provided that they're on Earth or a facsimile thereof, of course). There is simply not enough non-circumstantial evidence to suggest that they are, and since that is what I look for, I can't espouse the theory myself. BTW, you've piqued my interest. How did you link all of the games? Care for exposition? Please? ^^ (Note that the amalgamated body could, arguably, also fade on account of the Crystal Blue medium of half of it... the results wouldn't be pretty, either :S). Good lord. That would be horrid! In the end, it's more how one prefers to interpret it. Like most things in Terranigma, there is no conclusive evidence either way. My views are shaped by my opinions, and the way the scene panned out in the game, in which it seems that Light Ark left the body after the final battle, but certainly, any of the three are possible. I'm a cynic, hence my views on the topic - it's holds much more impact for me if both ceased to exist as corporeal beings afterward. @ Fox Fire - Even should Dark Ark be reincarnated, I would expect him to remain made of Crystal Blue - there is no reason for a realignment of his being, nor a need for two souls on the same side - defeats the purpose (unless they flip-flop?). Also, if Meilin's parents are anything to go by, reincarnation should take some time. Light!Ark says, "Let's return to our own worlds." Light!Ark also wouldn't have died because he was flesh and blood. None of this can be said conclusively. Whose side constituted the body? And returning to their own worlds doesn't guarantee continued existence (as Dark Ark proved...). Anybody find it ironic that Light!Ark is dead for most of the game, but is alive at the end - but it's the opposite for Dark!Ark? Here's a question, what do you think initially killed Light!Ark? Yeah, seriously. Light Ark reaps what Dark Ark sowed and paid for with his life. I'm not so sure that that is so much ironic as it is unfair. As for what originally killed Light Ark, there were a few theories tossed around upthread, dealing with the affairs at Astarica; basically, Light Ark drank the liquid and was judged somehow unfit, dying there. Thus, the world had no hero, and was destroyed. All conjecture, of course, and if you have a theory, toss it out for discussion. As for the cycle, there were heroes prior to Ark. One of Terranigma's themes is the cyclical path of the world, so it follows that the Earth has been created and destroyed multiple times. Time to toss out a pet theory. I figured that Dark Gaia wanted the Earth resurrected to create perfection in his/its eyes. Same with Light Gaia. They merely happen to disagree over what "perfection" entails. It's this conflict that allows for the world to exist, albeit in a state of near constant tulmult. Everyone has his/her own theory, though. Magirocks - I felt that the fact that they were mentioned ties them strongly in with Dark Gaia. Perhaps they were Crystal Blue in a truly crystallized form. A slightly more trifle matter than the rest (what a thing to say - we're discussing a video game...), but I must admit, I don't recall this being brought up at any point before. @ DeusMortem - And once more, I am duly impressed by you. There are many native speakers of English who've not got half the handle on the language that you do. Yes, I've got MSN. Why? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 4/15/2006 3:44:47 PM message detail		Because I'd like to add you. :-) --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 4/15/2006 11:05:33 PM message detail		I'm beyond honored! I'm PrescitedEntity on MSN. Though, what with the time change and all, I'm not sure if we'll ever be online simultaneously. Still, you flatter me. ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 4/17/2006 11:22:49 AM message detail		@Fox Fire re: The Cycle. I can only assume you're right about Ark being the first to succeed, because Illusion of Gaia says basically the same thing about Will. I think it might be possible that Ark is the first one to try since LG flooded the world, but you never know. @nepheliad re: Light Ark's death. I don't believe Astarica would have been Light Ark's most recent stand - it strikes me that he was probably caught, unarmed, in Storkholm by King Henri's men. But you never know. If the game were a modern game, I'd tell you that I was sure Astarica was a dream, because of things like their clothes. But because the game came from an age of file-size reducing sprites, it could just be a surreal element or today's Ark's interperatation of the matter. @nepheliad re: SB->IoG. The connections are loose, naturally, and the hardest to explain would be the Mermaids and the Mountain People (and their... slugs). But I think there are enough connections between the games to find a link. Namely are the Solid Arm connection (unless you want to say that The Master or Gaia scattered the red jewels to another world) and the constant theme of ressurection. Those who say that Turbo is Soul Blazer's Cid are ignoring a major theme of the games, as Turbo from Soul Blazer is ressurected as a goat in the end of the game. It's more likely that the heroic animal, the only one in the entire world to fight Dethtol (Dark Gaia? Would someone who speaks Japanese tell if that thing I read was true? Thanks) before The Master decided to step in, was ressurected as the Turbos of the future - the one who rescued Will and Kara and Meilin's beloved fluffy pal. Turbo is not the only one (if he was, I would consider it a "Cid thing"). One could argue that Blazer is the first Hero, or that Lisa returned as other lead females, but there's no evidence to that. The Moon Tribe sprite is a rehash of the Ghost from SB but that's reaching too. I'm speaking more about... erm... [scours the internet looking for the names] Nana and Sabas. Sabas? That doesn't sound right... anyways. They first appear as a mermaid and her dolphin companion, but a quick dream rod acid trip into Sabas' dream will reveal him to be a young boy trapped on the Ghost Ship you later visit to finish the area, who is being comforted by his father about death. The two return as the children of the treasure hunter you find in the Incan Ruins, though you meet up with them in Watermia. I believe Nana makes a brief appearance in TG but I'm probably really wrong about that. Either way, I'm not trying to prove THAT connection. Another thing I noticed was a similar line shared by Dr. Leo and a TG character, but I've forgotten it over time. Again, that's not the conncetion I'm trying to prove. Umm... that's all I can think of right now.
DeusMortem Posted 4/18/2006 5:57:20 AM message detail		I'm PrescitedEntity on MSN. I added I'm [email protected]. Is that correct? :-S --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
nepheliad Posted 4/18/2006 2:37:56 PM message detail		@ Timberwulf - In regard to the SB Trilogy connection - that's plenty. Certainly enough to warrant an opinion that they are connected. Unfortunately, I'm sadly mule-headed. I guess that, in truth, I don't want to see them linked by anything more than premise. SB and IoG I've come to be more accepting of, but, as it is, I suppose bias holds me back from wanting to shove them all together in one world; they seem more beautiful to me as stand-alones of a kind. So my counter-argument is - why no explicit connection? Perhaps Turbo and certain other carry-overs are simply favored to guide the heroes along their quests. Familiars, or guardian spirits, if you like. As for Light Ark's death, I just felt that Astarica manifested far too many of the themes in Terranigma not to be of greater importance than some dream. I had been of the opinion that it was nothing more than a mere illusion conjured by a hallucinogenic liquid (some tribal groups valued such things). In replaying the scene, however, I noticed that it seem to sum up the ideology of the game - "good" and "evil", love, what is truly valuable in life, and so forth. It would seem a waste if this was simply some grandiose symbol, especially considering that it was positioned so oddly in the game. But of course, it's quite likely that I'm over-analyzing, which I tend to do in this game. To pose two questions: How/why did Light Ark's body end up at the Hero's Grave, on Antarctica? And did he die before or after the last apocalypse? For the first, I'd think it was some ceremonial burial. The area's not called the Hero's Grave for nothing. I find it hard to believe that King Henri would take the effort to bury Light Ark there. However, had he died at Astarica, I could see the priests (?) entombing Light Ark there, which is partially why I espouse that theory. As for the second, I'm less sure. I would think he died pre-apocalypse, in the world before it was sealed. I suppose the question that needs to be answered first is how much time passed from the time Ark resurrects humanity to his awakening from his comatose state. Was it really merely three years, or was he only discovered three years prior to waking? This question has been posed before on this thread, I know, but it was lost amidst all the other things discussed. @ DeusMortem - Yes, that's me. Has something malfunctioned? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 4/21/2006 3:22:54 PM message detail		Light Ark's not the only person buried at the Hero's Grave, is he? I swear I remember other tombstones. Anyways, I believe it's probably a mystical sort of grave, perhaps where LG buries the good people or something.... or where the mermaids bury those drowned at sea? It's a good question.
nepheliad Posted 4/22/2006 3:31:00 PM message detail		So, L.G. has a corporeal form? Yes, there were other graves. I'm thinking they may be the others who have died from the ritual at Astarica, and that the burial is a way of honoring their attempt, since their failure resulted in death. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
vdt_colonel Posted 4/23/2006 9:20:22 PM message detail		I can't really see Light Ark ever being in Storkholm and killed by King Henri. I know Fyda says she thinks Ark looks familiar but then wouldn't Elle? Or perhaps she has a slight case of amnesia caused by the traumetizing experience of having everyone she ever knew slaughtered before her very eyes. I'm just throwing this out here and there isn't much proof or anything but... Is it possible that the existence of Dark and Light forms of Ark are nothing more than an abnormality? Kumari says that Ark belongs to nothing and that makes him special. Would that apply to Dark and Light also? Could it be that Ark is the great balancer/unbalancer depending on whichever side he chooses whenever he appears in the world? And that his true form is neither light nor dark but neutral.
Snow_rock Posted 4/23/2006 11:19:10 PM message detail		Maybe L. Elle was an introvert, so she doesn't recognize Ark. --- the dead doesn't fear everything
nepheliad Posted 4/25/2006 6:08:02 PM message detail		^^ Bringing up an intriguing point. Does everyone have a light and dark side? Not speaking, of course, of spiritually and mentally, but of practically (not "good" or "evil", but two literal sides in separate alignments). Basically, does everyone have a "Crysta" double somewhere in the underworld? Which goes into another question - what quality or qualities make Ark the hero? Is it that he has the will/spirit/soul for it? The strength? Two fully separated sides? And yet another set of questions - what composes each side of Ark? Do both have a soul, mind, will, spirit, body, etc? How far is the divide between them? Are they truly separate entities, or halves of a whole? A quick thought - Ark's two sides, when combined, make the hero wholly balanced, a half and half equilibrium. He's not inherently swayed either way, and it is his decision that gives the verdict on the fate of the world. An "divine" arbiter, in a sense. A disjointed post, no? It's been a while since I've been the one to make inquiries instead of responding to them. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkAluca Posted 4/26/2006 3:50:33 AM message detail		^^ Bringing up an intriguing point. Does everyone have a light and dark side? Not speaking, of course, of spiritually and mentally, but of practically (not "good" or "evil", but two literal sides in separate alignments). Basically, does everyone have a "Crysta" double somewhere in the underworld? While one might argue that we've only seen a small part of the underworld and that there might be more villages that host Underworld-doubles, I somewhat doubt that. There are only two exact copies to be seen in Crysta those of L.Elle and L.Ark. There is a copy of Elle so that D.Ark has got an attachment to that person, which might help him form a similar bond to the L.Elle who is important to his mission of reactivating Beruga, if only for the fact that she was adopted by King Henri who is part of the little organisation that bought up all the resources for Beruga's production lines, atleast until L.Elle goes on to make him a head shorter. Why Dark Gaia chose to make his resurrecter a copy of L.Ark, I do not know, but he probably had his reasons. And after all he should have died after his encounter with Beruga, so that Dark Gaia never considered the fusion of Light and Dark within that body. I'll come to the others later when I got more time. --- The true knight would save the virgin from being sacrificed. The true adventurer would ensure that she could never be a virgin sacrifice again.
Timberwulf Posted 4/27/2006 6:00:22 PM message detail		Nice points, DarkAluca. I also want to point out that there MIGHT be one more double: the man who works upstairs in the mill seems to be a copy of the man from Nirlake. Also: as I type that, I'm taking back a lot of what I said in the other thread, about the ressurrection of the humans... ugh, too confused, good luck with that post, sorry.
DarkAluca Posted 4/28/2006 2:52:45 AM message detail		Which goes into another question - what quality or qualities make Ark the hero? Is it that he has the will/spirit/soul for it? The strength? Two fully separated sides? I would say that Ark became the hero because Dark Gaia made him one. Out of the few souls that she had the ability to infuse into Crystal Blue bodies, there might have been only one that fit her needs, the one that we know as Ark. I would speculate further that strength is not important as the journey would strengthen him. That he has got another version of himself on Earth Dark Gaia never included into her idea out of reasons stated in my above post. What's left is that the combination of body and soul needed some specific talents, it needed to be of a free will, once Ark was on the Earth Dark Gaia couldn't interact as directly as before with him, he needed to do everything of his own. Which already leads into the next, Ark needed to be helpful, while he certainly displays a sense of ill will at points, but when it came to the really important decisions he always acted in the way that he deemed to be the best thing. And yet another set of questions - what composes each side of Ark? Do both have a soul, mind, will, spirit, body, etc? How far is the divide between them? Are they truly separate entities, or halves of a whole? In my opinion both have or had all of the listed things, it's just that L.Ark's body for example is rotting away six feet under the soil of the Hero Grave, while D.Ark only has an artificial body out of Crystal Blue until after the events of Hero Grave. And I personally think that they are the opposite sides of one and the same, the entity that we see after they fuse together at Hero's Grave. But that largely comes from my theory about the two Gaias of Terranigma, so take that as you will. --- The true knight would save the virgin from being sacrificed. The true adventurer would ensure that she could never be a virgin sacrifice again.
Snow_rock Posted 4/28/2006 9:49:15 AM message detail		How about the case of the Cryspear? I think I remembered Yomi saying that it once belonged to the hero before him. If that were so, then why is the hero pike used? Or maybe, it's the light side of Cryspear? --- the dead doesn't fear everything
nepheliad Posted 4/29/2006 5:48:27 PM message detail		^ Well, heroes don't keep the same weapons throughout their journeys, especially if said journey spans the course of several years, as Ark's seemed to. @ Dark Aluca - In addressing doubles, it seems to me, and if I recall, the game makes some mention of this, that the entirety of Storkholm was copied over (or under, I suppose) to the underworld. I would think that D.G. would try to break bonds between Lightside Elle and Ark, seeing as how that would lead to his acquisition of the treasures in Storkholm. It seems to me that it was coincidental, if not unavoidable; perhaps their powers have a set scope. Or perhaps Dark Elle's purpose was to influence the development of Dark Ark, or impede upon his willingness to sacrifice Crysta for the overworld. As for why D.G. would choose the hero, that'd be because he most likely has qualities that others do not which allow him to overcome the obstacles in his way. Ark faces some harsh situations - travelling across the Earth, in solitude, for what could be years would not be easy. Not being able to return home, facing as many adversities as he did, I would wager that few would be able to weather the journey and remain generally unchanged in demeanor and spirit. Basically, D.G. chose him for his soul and willpower. As for ill will, I figured that was merely to serve as a catalyst for everything, and it never seemed to me that he actually harbored ill will - only a strong mischievous streak. In my opinion both have or had all of the listed things, it's just that L.Ark's body for example is rotting away six feet under the soil of the Hero Grave, while D.Ark only has an artificial body out of Crystal Blue until after the events of Hero Grave. And I personally think that they are the opposite sides of one and the same, the entity that we see after they fuse together at Hero's Grave. But that largely comes from my theory about the two Gaias of Terranigma, so take that as you will. Eee. Concurred on body; that's pretty obvious. But mind, spirit, will, and soul? What happens when they fuse, then? Two minds, two wills, two spirits, two souls, housed in one body? Or did they start off with only half of each? Were those fused as well? I guess I consider them separate entities, which don't fully merge together - not in the sense that they become only one in spirit. I'd always thought of their combination as the fusing of their energies, but no further. I suppose the idea of two souls fully merging is rather disturbing to me, since it seems so contrary to everything else I'd encountered in spirituality of any kind. We ought discuss our ideas on the Gaian entities, really, since that lies at the core of many of these theories. Hey, Timberwulf. Are you feeling rather out of touch with your previous theories? Just asking, because I am. It seems that most of the theories and conjecture I've encountered have solid basis and reasoning, while not being in accordance with each other, so I'm left in a muddled mess. Since you've been around in this and other plot discussion threads, I figured I'd ask you. I suppose that, in the end, one is left to the theory that one likes best, since many seem to be on equal footing. Beauty in ambiguity. Ah, Terranigma. Of a rare breed, to be sure. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 4/30/2006 7:51:31 PM message detail		I'm solid on most of my original theories, except that other one in the other thread that... I'll remember when I get there. I'm stubborn :P. Sure, we can talk about the Gaian entities... Erm..... umm.... where do we wanna start?
marlkintass Posted 5/1/2006 8:10:18 AM message detail		I still find it interesting that in Illusion of Gaia Dark Gaia seemed to have existed purely on the comet... presumably 'banished' there and as it returned so did his influence. As for the ark things I'd say the plot definitely suggests originally the world existed all light and was sealed up for the purposes of stopping Dark Gaia. As to why he created Ark and the villages, if he did, it seems purely because he'd need the opposite of the light hero to undo what the light hero supposedly did, or helped with... It's a theory anywho, lol. I've always looked at it as Ark being neccessary for Dark Gaia to unseal whatever was stopping him purely because the light version is supposedly his opposite, and presumably their hero. My brother suggests it's a christ/anti-christ thing, hehe... but anyways... it's interesting.
nepheliad Posted 5/1/2006 2:00:25 PM message detail		@ Timberwulf - Solid as a rock, no? I wish I had your conviction, and didn't sway like a willow branch in the wind. ^^; But seriously, so many theories that have such good basis and effect! I am in awe of this thread as much as I am of the ending to the game. Well, almost. As for the Gaias, I was thinking of their motives. I know - guessing at a god's motives is a foolhardy thing to do, but it's human nature to rationalize that which is not yet understood, right? The query was actually directed at DarkAluca, since he talked about how it influenced his ideas on other things. @ marlkintass - In accordance. It just takes me longer to explain my views due to my long-windedness. But yeah, that's basically what I though. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Stealthjelly Posted 5/3/2006 4:46:55 PM message detail		Sorry it's been so long. Anyway, here's a few things as I understand them. First the Dark Elle thing. From what I've seen, the whole of crysta is a copy of storkholm, whose inhabitants become wolves to protect the hero gear (and probably the box too). Dark Elle is manipulated by D. Gaia because she is the one Ark cares about more than anyone else. Second, I think D. Gaia chooses Ark over the other villagers because as the copy of the hero, D. Gaia knows he has the spirit, strength and will to do what he (D. Gaia) wants. --- I love this showwwww -Gir, Invader Zim
DarkAluca Posted 5/12/2006 1:28:34 AM message detail		It has been some time, but the real life has been taken away quite some time from me. Well we wanted to talk about the entities of Dark and Light within Terranigma and our different views. For the moment I'll leave "The Master" from Soul Blazer out of it since he doesn't really fit the subsequent pictures. But it's taken into consideration that all of the three games are not only connected, Soul Blazer and Illusion of Time/Gaia anyway, but also exist in some kind of historic relation atleast for IoG and Terranigma. This means that the world seen at the end of IoG or for that matter what is seen in the ruins of Angkor Wat is the setting of the world in the prelude to the events of Terranigma, the advanced civilization that brings forth the genius Beruga and eventually it's destruction. This is merely the setting for the two games it doesn't have anything to do with the Entities of Light and Dark. So basically we've got a set time period between IoG and Terranigma during which the following must have happened. This all is merely speculative. At some point during this time period we'll have the remains of the citizens of Mu or more commonly called the Angels move even further underground, actually they'll go so far that they eventually stumble upon a massive network of caverns deep inside earth, they basically founded the Underworld in which Dark Ark lives. Now in IoG we've had only one specific Entity called Gaia, there was no mentioning of it being Dark or Light, it was just the protector of earth and upon the impending danger of the nearing comet it set things into motion and Will upon his journey. When the Angels went into the underworld they also somehow fled from the range of influence that Gaia held. Unable to protect them in their inner world Gaia decided that a radical rethinking would have to occur and split itself into two separate entities, Light and Dark Gaia. As of now neither of them actually held these titles. Anyway one of the Gaias went into the Underworld and from there on watched over the brooding and growing civiliation of the not so angelic folk. Years went on, decades went past and eventually maybe even the centuries. All the while the split entities watched over their children, but as time went on the different perspective started to change them. The Light and Dark personalities came to surface. One strifing for a survival of the fittest a survival of only those worth it seen in what Beruga wants to do with humanity and one that wants to keep everything in order and all of humanity as one. It has become not only a fight of Dark vs. Light, but more so a battle of different philosophies, Strife vs Order, War vs Peace, we all know the deal. That is also why at the end Dark Gaia talks so much to Ark on his way to her about the meaning of Light and Dark. That one can't exist without the other. It's not meant in a physical way, it's meant in a deeper way. Even if the entity Gaia split itself to preserve all of humanity if you were to destroy one half the other would also cease to exist, that alone is solely the reason why Dark Gaia is only sealed away at the end. On a last sidenote the characters of Nana and Sabas or whatever it was again appear in all three games. In person or dolphin or ghost in Terranigma and Soul Blazer and on a random note in the Incan Ruins shortly before the battle against Castoth in Illusion of Gaia/Time. --- The true knight would save the virgin from being sacrificed. The true adventurer would ensure that she could never be a virgin sacrifice again.
Timberwulf Posted 5/13/2006 5:15:21 PM message detail		Hmm. Interesting theories, but I'm compelled to argue them, namely because I can't see any proof of the angels digging down, etc, etc, etc, split personalities. It always seemed to me that Dark Gaia, being what she was, created the underworld for the sake of her experiments, or something to that effect. And I swear Dark Gaia is mentioned in IoG. But otherwise, your timeline arguements are pretty good, I like!
nepheliad Posted 5/13/2006 9:32:58 PM message detail		^^ Except, shouldn't the Underworld be far more populated, then? Save for Crysta, it's quite barren, and Crysta is explicitly stated and reinforced to have been copied by DG from Storkholm; it is also implied that the sole reason for Crysta's existence is to create the person needed to resurrect the surface world. So, I'm thinking that they are not the Angels. Also, many games have similar characters, often bearing the same moniker. I'm not about to link Secret of Mana to Seiken Densetsu 3, but they both have a Mana Goddess, Watts, Neko, Mana Sword, Flammie, the spirits, and so forth. I suppose that that is grounds for linkage, though. Otherwise, nice reference to the concept of the unending struggle between opposing forces. A bit different from the norm, which is a good thing. Also loved the idea of the two sides having stemmed from one being, and developed different personas over time; a nice contrast to the truly Dualistic nature I've seen the two ascribed to multiple times. Personally, I like to make the entirety of Terranigma into a parallel/allegory of the Judeo-Christian beliefs, in taking a religious spin. I suppose that could work with the linkage, too; Gaia is God. Somewhere along the lines, one under him fell due to conflict of belief, and became Satan, or Dark Gaia, and the other gained the title of Light Gaia. The various heroes are representative of prophets, angels, and saviours, mixed together. Then, I would surmise that Dark Gaia's workings are actually part of Light Gaia's plan - a sort of test for humanity. That is why the surface world must be resurrected; it is the impartial field upon which the two "opposing" forces play their cosmic and godly game of chess, or checkers, or whatever. While I must profess that this is not my favorite theory (being one of profuse thought), it is one I like to humor in letting the story of the games rattle in my head. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkAluca Posted 5/16/2006 1:56:28 AM message detail		I can't see any proof of the angels digging down Well they were already highly susceptile to light in IoG, give them some time to adapt to the situation and in no time they'll dwell only in the nether regions of earth. And I swear Dark Gaia is mentioned in IoG. I only recently played through IoG, which was the main reason that I came up with theory at all and unless I totally oversaw it there is no mentioning of Dark Gaia, heck the head which you save at is named Gaia, no mentiong of if being light or dark. There was only as the opponent the otherworldly comet, but that wasn't Dark Gaia that was the comet. ^^ Except, shouldn't the Underworld be far more populated, then? Save for Crysta, it's quite barren, and Crysta is explicitly stated and reinforced to have been copied by DG from Storkholm; it is also implied that the sole reason for Crysta's existence is to create the person needed to resurrect the surface world. So, I'm thinking that they are not the Angels. Well first of all we only see a very small part of the underworld in contrast to the surface and it is more likely that the Angels also contracted Asmodeus and died from it or something else that occured during the "end of the world". At which point Dark Gaia uses his last strength to create Crysta and the Crystal Blue copies. Why could Dark Gaia still react to the happens, unlike Light Gaia? The answer comes with the theory, until the virus reached the underworld and started to kill of all his citizens from which Dark Gaia drew power he could react and set his plan into motion. Since it took some time for the virus to spread into the underworld Dark Gaia unlike Light Gaia could do something to help his cause, namely preserve some souls and stick them into his self-created carbon copies of Stockholm inhabitants. Also, many games have similar characters, often bearing the same moniker. I'm not about to link Secret of Mana to Seiken Densetsu 3, but they both have a Mana Goddess, Watts, Neko, Mana Sword, Flammie, the spirits, and so forth. I suppose that that is grounds for linkage, though. As far as I know they are connected, namely Seiken Densetsu 3 being a prequel to the Secret of Mana, but one would probably have to ask on one of the respective boards about that. --- The true knight would save the virgin from being sacrificed. The true adventurer would ensure that she could never be a virgin sacrifice again.
nepheliad Posted 5/17/2006 2:58:26 PM message detail		^ Well, I wouldn't know the details of your theory until you revealed them. ^^; But yes, that does make sense, as far as I can make of it in the limited time I have to ponder the matter. It also happens to be a commendable way of connecting the two games; kudos to you. As for the Mana games, eh. I frequented that board for a while, and from what I've heard, the issue of continuity rather split them. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Tr4p_r00t Posted 5/18/2006 7:14:21 AM message detail		I only recently played through IoG, which was the main reason that I came up with theory at all and unless I totally oversaw it there is no mentioning of Dark Gaia, heck the head which you save at is named Gaia, no mentiong of if being light or dark. There was only as the opponent the otherworldly comet, but that wasn't Dark Gaia that was the comet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, the second form of the comet -was- called "Dark Gaia". She pretty much looked like a warped form of Gaia to me anyways, so that figures. To me IOG and TS has always been obviously linked. I've read a pretty good theory about linkage on Cabus' site I believe. Is that still up? Now what confuses me is whatever happened to the Master and Deathtoll after Soul Blazer. BTW, sorry I haven't introduced myself yet. I'm a long-time lurker around this board and finally decided to sign up today ;-). Sorry I'm posting here right away, but I just though my first post should have something interesting :p I have to say that this ending topic is amazing. Read everything since the start. Just amazing. So uhh... how do you italic stuff? :p P.S. nepheliad, I'm your biggest fan.
Timberwulf Posted 5/18/2006 4:21:24 PM message detail		Welcome to the site! As for italics, use standard HTML, i.e. < i > text < / i > Anyways, Soul Blazer. I think the three going theories are: - The Master IS Gaia and Dethtoll IS Dark Gaia (re: Terranigma intro), the names were changed later on. I read once that in the Japanese version, Dethtoll was Dark Gaia but I really think that's not true any more. - The Master is Gaia but Dethtoll is just a demon lord. - The Master is another god of the world that later abandons it or just doesn't come into the path of the Hero. Dethtoll is again just a demon lord. Um, I think. Not sure.
nepheliad Posted 5/18/2006 9:24:38 PM message detail		^^ Welcome to posting this board! Always more than glad to see another fan. Cabus's site is down (Loire 1st Avenue, right?), and has been for quite a while. Quite a number sites devoted to the SB trilogy have gone down in the past few years, unfortunately, and my belated entrance to the fandom is stressing; the only two websites with any notable activity or traffic in English that I'm aware of at the moment are Cherubae's and Terraearth. Seems I've missed the peak of interest in the game. As such, I have not read said theory. I suppose I am about the only one who doesn't espouse the linkage. ^^; Mule-headed, am I. Yep, this ending thread is truly amazing. Fondly reading back through it, the quality and depth of the thread remains as stunning as ever, and I'm happy to have taken part in this discourse, through the hopefully adequate contributions I made. I'm in awe of many of the posters (so much so that I can name quite a couple off the top of my head), and what this thread has accomplished. Biggest fan... of mine? I'm perplexed as to why such an honor is bestowed upon little ol' me. ^^; Typo (in the way of mishap while copy-and-pasting), perhaps? ^^; Thanks for the list of theories, Timberwulf; I'd been intending to ask that, myself, but things of the like, recently, have had a tendency to slip my mind. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
slivre Posted 5/22/2006 1:57:12 PM message detail		Aww this is still going. Tommrow I am going read all your post and try to comment if my hands do not hurt this bad. --- One day you will meet me. Then I will be there for you. Regardless of who you are.
nepheliad Posted 5/22/2006 6:38:03 PM message detail		Aww, slivre, what happened to your hand? Hope it feels better. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 5/22/2006 6:43:06 PM message detail		Cloud nymph, I still haven't seen you online MSN. :-( --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
slivre Posted 5/26/2006 7:15:26 PM message detail		Well a big budha fell on it so iI could not use it properly. But I had to check the boards. Then I have ben a bit busy. with trying to find a new college to go to and a new study. found one right up my ally. What makes debated more fun too. Its t God studies. Which you do to become a minister.(yes i will be able to marry people too * sings I have the power) Well its has philosophy classes too etc. I did not considered this education before and wasted one year sadly. But that was because I did not think that education was on my level . ( even if I hae an iq of 150 grumble * stupid dutch spelling and grammar ) But I am going join in soon. if you are ready for me that is. ps. humour is a good thing if you are a minister. --- One day you will meet me. Then I will be there for you. Regardless of who you are.
Tr4p_r00t Posted 5/27/2006 5:19:03 AM message detail		Oh my God, you have an IQ of 150?! (da's echt gigantisch man! :\|), that's just sick. I've always been too afraid to check my IQ; I think there's a 100% chance I'd only disappoint myself (sp?). :p So what was this study you dropped out of? Something like a docter-study? Look, I keep it easy and persue something that doesn't have anything to do with intelligence: be a worldfamous rockstar. I think there's a 99% chance I'm gonna disappoint myself.
nepheliad Posted 5/28/2006 4:36:19 PM message detail		^^^ DeusMortem! Where in the name of all that is not sacred, sanctified, venerable, holy, or anything remotely religious have you been? And I'll wager you're not going to be around for a long while again, are you? ;_; MSN is quite happily making my system crash, so I'm Messenger-less until I get the problem resolved. X( ^^ A big... Buddha? Umm... I get the feeling that I've misread that... 'Cuz I'm imagining a massive statue of the Buddha slamming you on the hand. An IQ of 150?! Why, pray tell, are you using (read: wasting) your massive intellect on this mundane, trivial thing that we call a board?! Go invent a cure for Parkinson's or something in your spare time! Then again, I've taken several IQ tests administered by my school for our gifted program, and my score ranged from 131 to 154 (blatant fluke - I can only wish I could ever possess that kind of brainpower). And my friend had an even worse record of consistency - 108 to 146. What's more, the scores lack a trend over time. Which leads me to ask the obvious - WTF? Such reliable analyses... Maybe I was having off days? The range is far too large, though, for that to account for it. :S Don't worry, Tr4p_r00t, it's not as though taking the test compels you to blab your score. No one would know. In any case, I wouldn't put too much store in their accuracy, so long as you don't score too abysmally. And you won't. Modest people like you rarely have reason to be modest; I'd go so far as to say that, generally speaking, modesty varies directly with intelligence. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 6/3/2006 8:58:43 PM message detail		I'm not letting this thread out of my sight! Shameless bump. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/4/2006 2:27:56 AM message detail		I am glad this topic is still alive. Although I only have 2 posts in this topic, iIt really proofs that the game worthed it. I am gonna replay soon, my last walkthru was 5 years ago. Wish me luck. I know I am gonna have superior time. I only wish this game were finished properly.. --- "i might be cynical, but i'm also practical." Skynix, MSN.
Mirowood Posted 6/7/2006 1:04:03 PM message detail		Concerning the theory of Light Ark participating in the Astarica ritual, how do you think he actually made it to Astarica region in the first place? Or for that matter, what propelled him to leave his hometown of Storkholm in the first place? Well, If I think about it, we have no idea how long Light Ark has been lying in the Hero's Grave, but still I will use the catastrophe presented by the Asmodeus virus. The virus if I recall had a 90% success rate, so therefore if the virus has wiped out much of the world, it would have reached Storkholm. Light Ark would have been one of the few survivors. Now how would he heard of Astarica? My guess is that living in Storkholm was another elder, much akin to Crysta's elder, perhaps an incarnation of Light Gaia. So from there Light Ark began his quest across the continents, his preseverence here may have been one of the factors for which a Dark Ark was created. When actually reached Astarica he encountered other survivors who wished to become closer to a god. Hence the reason for the sprites of Perel and the others each signifying other regions all vying for the same outcome. Now as we know, Arkwas not initially chosen to participate in the ritual, Ella got that role, and as also shown Ark dies by drinking one of the poisoned goblets. However, because of his efforts in the ceremony and his meeting with Light Gaia he was buried at Hero's grave in Antarctica, whose name bears a striking similarity to Astarica, perhaps the developers were giving a hint of some kind with the name. All conjecture of course, feel free to rip to shreds, in fact I encourage it.
nepheliad Posted 6/7/2006 10:25:36 PM message detail		Really odd question, but you wouldn't be the Mirowood on Fanfiction.net who started a Bahamut Lagoon novelization about a year ago, and updated a SD3 novelization this year, both of which I just read about an hour ago, would you? That would be... odd. Hmm. I'm fairly sure that the incarnation of Kumari is supposed to be Light Gaia's representation on the mortal plane, and he was the chief orchestrator of events at Astarica, IIRC. His abilities far exceed that of any mere spiritual person - it seems that he is divinity of a sorts; he seems prescient, and could call upon the spirits of life. The others at Astarica were supposedly the equivalent of dedicates; they didn't want the power for themselves, as their role was to aid in the selection of the chosen one. They could have drank the dew themselves, but instead, they stand about, in anticipation of the one who would fulfill whatever role was required. Side note: Apparently, Ark was not aware of the significance of the ritual, since he had to have it explained to him. I suppose that could be attributed to having to inform the player of the goings-on, but if he didn't, it could be that Kumari's equivalent psychically communicated with Ark. By the time Ark had arrived in Astarica, Elle's year-long ordeal had concluded; she was, for their purposes, a god(dess). Since it takes a year for the dew to collect, it was actually time for the next person to undergo the trial. Therefore, one of the goblets was filled with dew. However, since Light Ark was not destined to be the hero (rather, Dark Ark was; alternatively, the world was not meant to be saved at the time), he chose incorrectly. As for the mass grave at Antartica, it could be that every one of those people had participated and failed to meet the requirements, and tradition dictates that they be buried there. Crackpot theory time! Here's part of why I don't espouse the direct relations theory between the games in the trilogy. I was going to unveil this in its own thread, but it fits too well to not segue into this presently. Might dedicate a fanfic to this idea later on. Terranigma often alludes to cyclicism; indeed, that seems to be quite a major theme in the game. Without further ado, here begins conjecture! Dark Ark is a reflection and a copy of Light. However, both have existed since the dawn of time. The world has been created and destroyed countless times before, and will continue down this path into eternity, as far as can be perceived. Each time, the hero is called on to make the tip the balance towards one of the two sides, creating a balance in which existence is possible; should one side truly win, the world would stagnate. Each Gaian entity has its own idea of how the world should function, but in reality, it is a mixture of the two that allow for life. Yet, there can never be true equilibrium; like a two-party political system, they alternate power, with the hero being the one to decide at what time. As such, Dark Ark's life heralds the resurrection, whereas Light Ark's is the harbinger of apocalypse. Therefore, he goes through the motions again and again. There's a greater plot to this, but I'm too tired to type it up. Not the theory I like best, but it was the second one to come to mind after playing the game. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/7/2006 11:43:54 PM message detail		I meant by the game finished properly: Litz in full-state, Katarin boy knows what the hell he's talkin about, more side quests. More places to visit on earth.. Like Arabia, Kalahari, Cape Town.. That would have been wonderful. And you know? I actually thought about doing a plot analyse for this game, connecting it to IoG. Thing is, seeing this topic, it made me feel like I am only going to rip ideas from here. Plus, the fact that I only played small part of SB hold me back. I dunno if anybody would read it anyway. Thus making the time and effort worth-efficient. >_> "Everytime I see a bird, freedom personified, I nowadays think of, and actually even hoping the bird I see above me is Ark..." This is one of the best, most beautiful lines anyone wrote in this topic, and in description to the game ending. --- "i might be cynical, but i'm also practical." Skynix, MSN.
nepheliad Posted 6/8/2006 11:56:47 AM message detail		Don't we all? If I recall, the general consensus a while back was that Terranigma's greatest fault was being too short. So what if you're going to rip ideas from here? Just give credit where credit is due. It's a process called compiling, and few who create plot analyses do it single-handedly; not many are so endowed with the ability to reason through every necessary detail on their own. And please do! I, for one, would be highly interested, and probably read it through dozens of times. Lame, I know... ^^; Oh, the depth of DeusMortem - always good for a beautiful and philosophical quip. Where are you, DM? ;_; Another to join the numerous MIAs from this board? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Mirowood Posted 6/8/2006 12:45:53 PM message detail		Yeah, that would be me... I really need to update more often, but in writing a novelization I have to obsess about multiple little details in an attempt to do justice, or in other words Matelite's speech is driving me mad... I'll also admit that I need some work in a lot of areas, but intend to start writing my own Terranigma related work. The plot would be centered around Beruga, and how he met up with Dark Gaia and was inspired to create the vaccine for Asmodeus and intern created the virus itself. Though I'm not entirely certain if I have the skill to write such a thing, you see it's not in my normal style, yet I feel it must be written. And on that note, do believe that is at all possible that Beruga might have encountered a dark space, similar to the one Will discovered in IOG. Or do you believe that he met with Dark Gaia in other form, something like the elder? Btw... to Bozel if you write this plot fic would it extend back into the days of Actraiser, assuming that the Master is indeed Light Gaia?
nepheliad Posted 6/8/2006 1:17:25 PM message detail		Good luck with Matelite's dialogue! I'm stumped by it myself, as I'm trying to craft a fic of my own. The Terranigma fanfic's premise sounds intriguing, and I hope you will commit it to pen/keyboard. As for how he consulted Dark Gaia, it seems that in Terranigma, the deities generally isolate the person within their minds, speaking telepathically, but Dark Space would be quite interesting a concept to entertain. Hey, DarkMasterBozel, now that two people are anticipating your plot analysis, how could you back out? ^_^ I think I'll leave the endeavor in your capable hands, unless you truly intend to do nothing with it. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/9/2006 10:08:47 AM message detail		Sigh my friends.. I really thought about this before. Now what I can think about is the kid I am going to raise on my own, my job, and my college. >_> Seriously though, if anyone was up to the idea, I can contribute to yours. So, Actraiser is kinda connected too? I never tried the game. Maybe if I could find a rom or something, it would be a very good thing.... Although that's not really in my priority list, too bad. Again, any kind of co-operation i can offer, it will be both my pleasure and honor. It was good to find this beautiful board. And thanks for the encouragment everyone. Back to watch Costarica Vs. Germany with Son. :-) --- "Actually Squall is Sephiroth in disguise to get to Piglet." Naruto498 - KHII board.
nepheliad Posted 6/11/2006 8:13:42 AM message detail		Agh. Am I the youngest person here, or what? Everyone else seems to be the realm of higher education... That's vaguely frightening. BTW, football = awesome. Well, I guess that leaves me, if anyone, since I'm probably one of the few with any spare time to speak of. I'll have to play all the games over, to be sure... Oh well. I'd planned to do so any way. You have a kid? Aw.... ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DeusMortem Posted 6/11/2006 8:37:43 AM message detail		I'm just dropping by to pay my respects. --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Hasukawa Kazuyaa Posted 6/11/2006 9:52:30 PM message detail		Hey, it's Bozel, from the Langrisser boards/game! You have a son? Never knew that. Good luck balancing things out; time is going to be your most precious resource. ~Kaz --- *Fighter:* "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you.. Kaz Fact: Welcome to Version 2.0!
nepheliad Posted 6/11/2006 10:38:23 PM message detail		Dang it. We've hijacked this thread too! >_< Laments for the loss of the last unhijacked thread --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/11/2006 11:45:40 PM message detail		Kaz!! yes it's me dude!!! Hugs da dude! I even left ya a note at the Mystic Ark board!!! You read it? Nice to see ya here dude. And yes, I got a kid. I am 26 years old now already, my boy is 3 years now. And yes, Soccer=cool. I used to play for my skool's team and those were awesome days. My offer to help in anything i can is never withdrawn. Again,, it was an honor!^_^ --- "Actually Squall is Sephiroth in disguise to get to Piglet." Naruto498 - KHII board.
nepheliad Posted 6/12/2006 2:37:22 PM message detail		Well, unless that offer extends over several months, I'm afraid you may have no choice. :( I won't be able to actually work on it for some time, what with vacationing without Internet access and having taken it upon myself to improve Wikipedia's Terranigma and Bahamut Lagoon pages first. Therefore, unless you're hanging around for quite some time... --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 6/12/2006 9:15:09 PM message detail		@nepheliad, several posts back: Yeah, that's more or less how I view the Gaian/Hero relationship. It makes you wonder what the game would be like from the perspective of a Light Hero? :S Either way, I believe that the Hero would have to find their weaker counterpart and fuse with them to create the final hero, but that's just trudging back into the same mud as earlier discussions.
nepheliad Posted 6/14/2006 10:45:52 PM message detail		I would imagine being the light half is about as fun as being the dark - not very. Either you're bored in a sort of stasis and non-corporeal (for all purposes, dead), or you're expected to selflessly save/destroy the world. In Light Ark's case, I guess that amounts to dying somehow before the apocalypse, then waiting around without a purpose (or a body) for Dark Ark's arrival. Doesn't sound like a thrilling life. What's wrong with trudging through the same old muck once in a while? It's not as if we (as a whole) haven't done it multiple times before. XD In any case, once I'm back from vacation, there'll be more to talk about, since I am planning to work on some form of an analysis of various aspects of the game, therefore necessitating discourse on hazy subjects. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 6/15/2006 5:25:06 PM message detail		So I was looking at the Japanese Wiki site on Terranigma through Babelfish, trying to decipher the gibberish it was spewing, when I got to the character information section. It's quite intriguing. It seems to confirm some theories - at the very least, it seems that the dream at Astarica did indeed detail an event in Light Ark's life. Then it says something about Elle and Light Ark, and something about a journey, but I failed to ascertain whether or not the two things were related. Another interesting thing is that they connect the Wong, Queen Mary, and King Henri to Beruga, which gives one of my past ponderings a bit of credence - at least I'm not the only one to have thought of it. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkAluca Posted 6/15/2006 11:56:53 PM message detail		Didn't Wong himself say shortly before the Castle went crumble crumble that the European Kingdoms oppressed their people to be able to fund Wong's doings which in turn where straitly sent to Beruga. --- The true knight would save the virgin from being sacrificed. The true adventurer would ensure that she could never be a virgin sacrifice again.
nepheliad Posted 6/16/2006 4:01:01 PM message detail		Yes, but only the king of Loire was explicitly mentioned. My crackpot theory was that Queen Mary was in on it as well, perhaps hoping to receive children via Beruga's genetic tampering; to put it shortly, the paintings on the wall in the castle were of Beruga, Henri, Wong, and some other person. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkAluca Posted 6/20/2006 11:06:56 AM message detail		I'll need to play it again, but I'm rather sure that there was talk of gold and a connection between Mary and Henri when you are in the Castle in Spain, just losts it name. --- The true knight would save the virgin from being sacrificed. The true adventurer would ensure that she could never be a virgin sacrifice again.
nepheliad Posted 6/20/2006 12:32:53 PM message detail		Keep this thread bumped! I'll need while compiling information for the planned plot analysis, and since I'm going for twenty-some days, I can't bump it myself. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Tr4p_r00t Posted 6/20/2006 5:53:55 PM message detail		Well bumpadiddlydoo then. --- If everybody contemplates the infinite instead of fixing the drains, many of us will die of cholera. ~John Rich O_O Damn straight! lights another cigarette
nepheliad Posted 6/23/2006 12:43:00 AM message detail		Before I leave... Bompity-bomp-bomp-bomp! ...My apologies; the haze of Chinese industrial smog is addling my brain. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/25/2006 3:08:39 AM message detail		I don't think it will need bumping. Just in case, I check this board daily. So no worries. ^_^ --- My fears are lies, melt away..
Rue Posted 6/25/2006 7:09:08 AM message detail		<_< >_> ... --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/25/2006 11:42:09 AM message detail		Spanks Rue. Behave! <_< --- My fears are lies, melt away..
nepheliad Posted 6/25/2006 8:10:47 PM message detail		RUE?!? Rue dropped by? ...So, a sporadic poster? We really ought to bring up something to discuss. XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Mirowood Posted 6/25/2006 10:33:46 PM message detail		Well how about this, since we left off on the note of links between King Henri and Bloody Mary, this brings up the paintings. Whom do you feel is in that fourth painting? It's been assumed the first is Henri, second being Wong and third being that of Beruga. The fourth painting was of a man with a glass eye of sorts. My Theory: Warning Extreme Conjecture Ahead! I believe that this man in the fourth painting was Beruga's primary lab assistant, before the days of his extreme use of robotics. Now I'm basing this theory off of the zombie/mutant that Beruga shows you upon his resurrection. If you return to that spot later on, there is a text message that pops saying the mutant is staring at you unnaturally. His stare is unnatural due to the fake eye. How did he get this eye? I believe that procedures Beruga introduced orginally where not entirely safe, his eye fell prey to it, yet still he was one of the few who knew exactly what Beruga was doing, putting him in the circle of those who were painted. To honor his dedication, Beruga tested the very first completed Asmodeus vaccine on him. We all know the results of this a heavily disfigured yet still immortal being. This may also be all the more reason why Beruga used this particular specimen to show Ark. It meant something to him, seeing his dear colleague one of those who truly mattered perserved. Actually the more I think about that theory, the more ways you guys could find holes, but hey you wanted this topic alive didn't you?
DarkMasterBozel Posted 6/25/2006 11:09:50 PM message detail		Oh ****! Those 4 pics are meant to be... Pics of Beruga, Wong, Henri & some other man? Never figured that out.. Been a long time since I played. When was it mentioned? Man! I gotta play the game again just for the sake of seeing this "unnatural" message. Which spot has got it again? >_> --- My fears are lies, melt away..
nepheliad Posted 6/26/2006 12:50:09 AM message detail		Naw, DarkMasterBozel, it wasn't official, as far as I can tell; it was an odd theory I concocted (can't believe that there are still people who remember it from about three months ago...), after someone made some inquiry about Queen Mary. It gained some credibility after I found that they (Henri, Wong, and Mary) were linked to Beruga. I theorized (blatant conjecture ahead) that Mary, after having lost her sons and being unable to have more children naturally, was confronted by Henri, Wong, and Beruga, who offered her a chance at having genetically related "children" through Beruga's genetic experimentation, in return for her allegiance. Then, there was something about the vaccine for Asmodeus going awry, leaving her and her "offspring" as the monstrosities that Ark encountered. The paintings are of Henri ("clear blue eyes" - caucasian), Wong ("oriental with impressive deep black pupils"), and Beruga ("eyes that burned with passion"). The last I was unable to place. However, this is all mere conjecture on my part. ^_^ I wasn't the first to come up with this, was I? Is it that far-fetched? :S The only thing concerning the lab assistant thing that leaves me unconvinced is that every other person in the painting is given a fairly prominent role in the game, whereas I can't even recall a mention of any lab assistant. I'll have to play through that area (Sylvain Castle) again. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Tr4p_r00t Posted 6/26/2006 7:05:43 AM message detail		Actually, I never really saw the link between Bloody Mary and anyone of DG's servants. In the castle's library is says Bloody Mary's children died on Columbus' expedition, right? That's why she tortured Columbus, not because he found the Hero's Gear. That's why she had gone crazy, not because of Asmodeus or something. Asmodeus just kills if I look at NeoTokio. I don't think she got offered anything. This NPC in Liotto says something like "there's a dark spirit hanging over Silvain Castle". Note the word spirit. She died so confused and angry that her spirit darkened. And in death, she created those sick little girls. This ofcourse, does not bring the answer to who the men on the paintings are, any closer -_-. Maybe they're just there for the riddle? --- If everybody contemplates the infinite instead of fixing the drains, many of us will die of cholera. ~John Rich
Big_Reaper Posted 6/26/2006 10:08:46 PM message detail		Do we know if Columbus has a fake eye or not? That fourth painting might be him. After all, the paintings are of people she has met, are they not? --- Seahawks fan for life!
nepheliad Posted 6/26/2006 10:53:03 PM message detail		^^ Don't you think it would take someone quite insane to accept those children? I wasn't insinuating that Asmodeus had anything to do with her insanity; that came later - that's how she died (BTW, this comes with the whole idea of the world's resurrection not being a start anew, but a sort of continuation of the past). The NPC is speaking of her, of course, and she is dead (or undead, depending on how you see it). I think that her "daughters" were given to her by Beruga (and they died, too, with the outbreak of the virus - perhaps the unsuccessful use of the vaccine has something to do with their odd state). Also, if there is some unnatural phenomenon outside the realm of knowledge, many will call it something supernatural. Even disregarding Asmodeus, she and her daughters may have something to do with Beruga; I don't see any reason to rule that out. His genetic work certainly would be appealing to a woman losing her sanity over the loss of her children. Of course, if the whole concept of residual memory from before the apocalypse is wrong, then this theory is wholly impossible, what with Beruga in some cryonic chamber or something... The Japanese Wiki, if I recall, connects Mary with Henri, Wong, and Beruga, so it's not as far-fetched as I had once thought. Mind, this is still "crackpot" conjecture. It just makes the threads of the story more interwoven. The game seems to imply that the four men confronted her together, not separately; I doubt Columbus would have a fake eye anyway, being a navigator - quite disadvantageous to have only one eye in such a profession. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Big_Reaper Posted 6/26/2006 11:35:06 PM message detail		Not uncommon amongst pirates! haha --- Seahawks fan for life!
Tr4p_r00t Posted 6/28/2006 7:17:02 PM message detail		^^ But she didn't die of Asmodeus! She died of grief for her sons! It's in the King's diary in the library! ;-) --- If everybody contemplates the infinite instead of fixing the drains, many of us will die of cholera. ~John Rich
nepheliad Posted 6/28/2006 7:39:33 PM message detail		I realized that a little later! Jeez, stop yelling in this thread; we're all being proper here. Yes, but as I've said, even disregarding that (since that part was implausible anyway), she could well have been associated with Beruga et al. Check the Japanese Wiki. Perhaps I read wrong... --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Tr4p_r00t Posted 6/29/2006 6:09:14 PM message detail		Sorry Neph. Didn't mean it that way ;-) ...Bump! --- If everybody contemplates the infinite instead of fixing the drains, many of us will die of cholera. ~John Rich
nepheliad Posted 6/29/2006 10:54:24 PM message detail		Aw, I was only mock fussing. ^_~ However, the tone in this thread tends to be more formal than that which you seem accustomed to... ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 7/6/2006 11:49:10 PM message detail		Eh, I just want to keep this thread where I can see it. Bump --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Phoenix Fist Posted 7/8/2006 2:27:39 PM message detail		likewise --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
DarkMasterBozel Posted 7/12/2006 12:57:08 AM message detail		I still come. Teleports away.. .. --- FF10 - 2 trio: YuRiPa = PURE FAN SERVICE.
Vespertilio Posted 7/12/2006 3:19:54 PM message detail		Does anyone feel like condsensing down for those of us who don't have to time to read 30 pages of posts O_o. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Phoenix Fist Posted 7/12/2006 3:38:11 PM message detail		yeah, set your settings to 50 messages per page. I origionally did it from the days of my 13K dial up, but even with broadband, it beats constantly changing pages. in a nut shell: Terranigma, much like silent hill, has almost as much thinking as gameplay. --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
Vespertilio Posted 7/13/2006 9:20:27 AM message detail		hahaha, sweet. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 7/16/2006 7:51:28 PM message detail		Well, now I see why some people are unable to appreciate the game. After all, thinking is quite a difficult feat to accomplish for some. ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 7/17/2006 10:05:47 AM message detail		Yeah, but the other great thing about terranigma is that you can totally take it at face value and still enjoy the hell out of it! --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Rue Posted 7/18/2006 4:30:59 PM message detail		Boo. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
DarkMasterBozel Posted 7/19/2006 12:28:09 AM message detail		Question that just occured to me. How many Yomis are really there? What I mean is: Ark meets Yomi early in the story, once he opens the Pandora Box, and the events go on: They journy on their quest together, till 4th chapter, when s/he try to attack infant Ark. Now when Elle stops Yomi, Ark is reborn. And Yomi comes again to the aid. I know it was mentioned in the game, but it was really a long time. Was it the same Yomi, or there's also a dark and light Yomi? In other words: The Yomi Ark met at the begining, is the same Yomi that tried to eliminate him, or the Yomi that rejoined him and gave him the Hero equipment? Appreciate explanations, & other possible theories if available. Thanks. --- FF10 - 2 trio: YuRiPa = PURE FAN SERVICE.
nepheliad Posted 7/19/2006 8:53:19 AM message detail		I always figured that "light" and "dark" Yomis were misnomers; there is only one, and Ark probably figured that out at some point (towards the end). After all, Yomi transcends normal existence, and Yomi doesn't object to Ark's line. I can't think of another way that that'd make sense. What Yomi says makes me think that Yomi is the one in control. Rather odd, but his/its grasp of events seems to be above even that of the Gaian entities. This scenario does credit Ark with being more insightful than what I'd thought before; he'd have to realize that in defeating Dark Gaia, he'd destroy Crysta. However, he does show depth (and after my recent playthrough, I realized that he had much more depth than I credited him with), and does introspect and contemplate at varying points in the game, so he's not merely charging headlong into things without thinking of their ramifications. Dark Elle's death ultimately served to allow him to relinquish Crysta to do the greater good - save the overworld. Though Yomi does say that there are two sides to him, Yomi deceives Ark throughout the entire game in order to bring about the events as they transpired, so it would hardly be a stretch that he lied about this as well; how else could he accompany Ark after that fateful night? He's/its more likely to lie than Ark is to make such a grievous error as to address light Yomi as he would dark. Mostly copy-pasted from one of my previous posts (in response to Rue XD); this thread is really too long to peruse, especially in search of anything specific. Which is why someone ought compile the information (if not for a FAQ, then at least for a thread). Mmm... When I have more time. XP --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 7/19/2006 9:16:28 AM message detail		My memory may be hazy, but I thought it was almost explicitly stated that there was a dark and a light Yomi. That always made sense to me, with Yomi trying to take out baby Ark, and then whole Dark Elle death thing...hmm... Well, assuming there was only one Yomi (though I respectfully disagree), what eaxactly happened when Dark Elle died? Once again, my memory is hazy, but doesn't Elle sacrifice herself to kill Yomi and save baby ark? What happens to Yomi there, if that isn't the case? --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 7/19/2006 9:32:15 AM message detail		Though Yomi does say that there are two sides to him, Yomi deceives Ark throughout the entire game in order to bring about the events as they transpired, so it would hardly be a stretch that he lied about this as well; how else could he accompany Ark after that fateful night? He's/its more likely to lie than Ark is to make such a grievous error as to address light Yomi as he would dark. If that isn't adequate, feel free to make your argument more specific. ^_^ Though mind, I forgot to say that this is, as always, conjecture under constant revision. Yomi is hardly constrained by mortality. What he says in the ending shows that he is at least an immortal, if not something beyond. My theory is that Yomi acts as a guide to the hero's arbiter - he makes events occur that bring about a fair (and perhaps, proper) decision on the fate of the world. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Rue Posted 7/19/2006 3:15:03 PM message detail		My question is, where did Yomi come from? We know he was sealed in the box, yes, but he said he's what human's will evolve into, so did he come from the future? I don't remember too much but as far as I know all they said is he was in the box. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
Cysti771 Posted 7/19/2006 3:56:47 PM message detail		My question is, where did Yomi come from? We know he was sealed in the box, yes, but he said he's what human's will evolve into, so did he come from the future? No, you kinda mis-read that whole Yomi speech at the end. He was the first thing humans were, before they evolved. He was the first species, and then he said "maybe man will turn back into my form one day..." or something to that effect at the end. I'll try to add some more in-depth theories, but for now I must finish my recent play-through... --- "arguements are stupid, but I've learned logic is as foreign a concept to fanboys as a balanced diet is." -Sho_Nuff
Vespertilio Posted 7/20/2006 9:29:03 AM message detail		Well, I think we hit a point where it's entirely up to our artisitc interpretation of the game, so whatever. I'm sure it's been considered, but would anyone say that Yomi is, in some way supposed to represent Hope? I mean, mythologically speaking, that's supposed to be the only thing left in Pandora's box when she closes it... So perhaps neph is right, and he manipulates events so that there is a hope for light? Or something...I kind of lost track of my arguement halfway through typing that... --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Rue Posted 7/20/2006 3:27:31 PM message detail		I rather like that theory, it makes sense. --- "Minna o, MAMORUNDA!!!"
nepheliad Posted 7/20/2006 4:35:38 PM message detail		Didn't think of the hope angle, but it fits like a glove. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 7/21/2006 9:16:19 AM message detail		I don't suppose anyone knows if Yomi means something in japanese? --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 7/21/2006 8:32:11 PM message detail		It seems to be a feminine name... But - searching for it yields another answer on the Japanese Wikipedia (kanji as opposed to whatever it was originally; I'm Chinese and can only recognize kanji). The kanji characters translate to "yellow spring" (Chinese), but after looking it up on Wikipedia, I'd say that this meaning is pretty intriguing: Japanese word for the underworld in which horrible creatures guard the exits; according to Shinto mythology as related in Kojiki, this is where the dead go to dwell and apparently rot indefinitely. Once one has eaten at the hearth of Yomi it is impossible to return to the land of the living. Yomi is comparable to Hades or hell and is most commonly known for Izanami's retreat to that place after her death. Izanagi followed her there and upon his return he washed himself, creating Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Tsukiyomi in the process. (See Japanese mythology.) So, light Yomi would be something of a contradictio in terminis. ^^; As an aside, the Japanese Wikipedia list light and dark Elles separately, but there is only one listing for Yomi... --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 7/22/2006 1:20:45 PM message detail		Hm, that's pretty ineresting, but this definition of a Ymoi also conflicts with the Hope idea, it WOULD make sense to me though, that they would call him Yomi to be tricky and throw you off to his real purpose, and to be fair, he is from the underworld. Given that explanation, I would accept that there is only one Yomi.. It's neat because with the name Yomi, he kind of ends up embodying both light and dark at the same time, which would (as you previously said) make him a higher creature than even light and dark gaia. Now here's the neat part I'll throw at you, but being both light and dark simultaneously, does coincide with the buddhist philosophy of enlightenment being in the middle path. Which brings us back to Yomi's statement that he's what humans started as (hey hey, Tabula Rasa!) and what they eventually end up as (enlightenment). Wow, if they thought all that through before hand... --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
DarkMasterBozel Posted 7/27/2006 7:39:59 AM message detail		DANCE WATER, DANCE! --- FF10 - 2 trio: YuRiPa = PURE FAN SERVICE.
nepheliad Posted 7/27/2006 11:52:29 AM message detail		I doubt that they thought all that through; fan conjecture is a powerful thing. ^^; I think the genius lies in the choice of motifs, themes, symbols, and story elements that can be woven together well - ambiguous enough to allow them to fit together with some thinking on the player's part, yet clear enough not to be a jumbled mess. The selection of names and other symbols definitely weren't arbitrary. Mind, if they did think it all through, then I'm duly wowed. Though I suppose that we managed to piece together (or fabricate ^^;) the contents of this thread says something of us, too. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
twobitmage Posted 7/27/2006 11:53:52 PM message detail		Japanese word for the underworld in which horrible creatures guard the exits; according to Shinto mythology as related in Kojiki, this is where the dead go to dwell and apparently rot indefinitely. Once one has eaten at the hearth of Yomi it is impossible to return to the land of the living. Yomi is comparable to Hades or hell and is most commonly known for Izanami's retreat to that place after her death. Izanagi followed her there and upon his return he washed himself, creating Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Tsukiyomi in the process. (See Japanese mythology.) interesting to note that izanagi wielded the sun spear... Sound familiar at all? also, when izanagi went into the underworld to save izanami, she turned into a monster and tried to kill him. --- "Never in your whole life be negligent towards someone from whom you have received a favor" Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Vespertilio Posted 7/28/2006 9:19:11 AM message detail		THAT may have been more what they were going for with naming him Yomi, that would make sense to me. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
twobitmage Posted 7/28/2006 9:50:14 AM message detail		I just thought of another parallel. I dont know why I didnt think of it in my last post, but izanagi and izanami are the god and goddess of creation. Ark is essentially creating the world, right? --- "Never in your whole life be negligent towards someone from whom you have received a favor" Yamamoto Tsunetomo
nepheliad Posted 7/28/2006 11:41:14 AM message detail		So, they obviously did intend the correlations! Well, I'm am, as said, duly wowed. The creators of Terranigma wove together the fabrics of Eastern and Western philosophy and faith into one amazing tapestry. Beautiful. The longer I hang around this board, the greater my appreciation for Terranigma gets, as the intricacies of the story reveals itself. I recognized its depth after playing it, but I couldn't have fathomed how much thought had to go into crafting the story. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
educated_slang Posted 7/28/2006 8:14:04 PM message detail		Wow I'm going to feel alone and against the majority when I say this, but I seriously thought the ending imo was so dull and unsatisfying. The last bit after the credits when it focuses on the surface world Elle was a good closer imo, but I expected much more as a whole, especially after that crappy last boss. I don't get emotional during games like these, and despite the subliminal message during the credits with him flying I still felt a bit empty. I'm not going to rant anymore about how disappointed I was cause I'm sure a couple, if not more, will bounce in here as soon as possible to argue about the beautiful message and all that crap. Just didn't fit me. I felt more satisfied with Final Fantasy 4's and Lufia 2's ending, which imo is probably the closest I've become to getting emotional to an ending(Lufia I mean, whereas it was good to see Cain without his helmet... sorta).
nepheliad Posted 7/28/2006 9:21:25 PM message detail		Well, everyone's entitled to his or her opinions. It's not as though we are going to bite your head off for this; we're not savage. ^_^ Different people like different things. Personally, I found the Lufia II ending wholly unsatisfying, flat, and predictable. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
educated_slang Posted 7/29/2006 12:48:16 AM message detail		The thing that got me was seeing the spirits of... ugh crap the main character and his wife(I forgot the names.. it's been awhile since I played it and I always change the main characters name to GFunk lol) roam the planet as Deku(?), Archy and the gang talked as if the two main characters we're going to meet at the party and whatnot. Plus the music got to me lol. Cheesy? Yes. But it worked on me. Don't get me wrong I'm not really knocking down Terranigma's ending, I just expected more and was just unsatisfied with what I recieved.
twobitmage Posted 7/30/2006 12:31:11 PM message detail		because there was no closure? --- "Never in your whole life be negligent towards someone from whom you have received a favor" Yamamoto Tsunetomo
nepheliad Posted 7/30/2006 1:32:51 PM message detail		Life has no closure... And art emulates life. I dunno, it just sounded like something Deus_Mortem might say. ^^; --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 7/31/2006 9:23:57 AM message detail		watch the spoilers eh? I still haven't played lufia 2. But anyway, what subliminal messages did you find in the ending to Terranigma O_o?? And what was wrong with dark gaia? I'm not attacking your opinion, I"m just curious about it, so flesh it out that I may further understand your thoughts. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 8/3/2006 3:30:40 AM message detail		Yep. different people, different approach. One probable reason why Final fantasy and Lufia catch glances is because of their traditional way of stories. Basically, they give what the audience wants. The guy wakes up, realizes some bad omen and is tasked to save the world, encounters a wacko who usually says, "Fool, you'll never defeat me.", meets friends, meets a girl and falls in love, guy and company becomes stronger, faces the big bad boss, defeats the big bad boss, and everyone lives happily ever after. This type of storyline is not really bad. But it's just too "good". After satisfying you with a plot like this, the player will just reflect upon it for a few days at most and look for a new game with the plot that will satisfy. Take FF8 for example. If I ask you to tell me about the story, what you would say would quite match the list above. Now, how about a plot that leaves you pondering not just about the ending but the whole story itself? It's normal that it would leave you unsatisfied and restless. But it makes tn timeless. We are left with space for interpretations and neverending discourse. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 8/3/2006 9:34:28 AM message detail		Well, the storyline you described is kind of the base storyline for all storylines ^_^;;. Socratic Dramatic Structure, and all that jazz. And in a lot of ways Terranigma holds on to that formula, but (and now I'll show how I agree with you) it does have a lot of extra character depth, and plot depth, so that they can force you to ask questions without moving away from the basic story. I think the biggest question is (and that's what this topic is for!) whether ending is a good one, or a bad one. I'd say it was a good one, but it's vague enough that everyone can interpret it different ways. It's pretty hard to argue that FF8 didn't end up as a happy ending (unless you turned the game off before the credits rolled), but you might be able to do it for this game. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 8/4/2006 12:44:35 AM message detail		Well, the storyline you described is kind of the base storyline for all storylines I have to disagree sir. Although you are right at some point. The guy wakes up, well, of course. realizes some bad omen and is tasked to save the world, No, No, No. Again and again. People mistake this game as the usual "save-the-world" game. If we look at the plot, Ark is simply moving around doing what the Elder asks him too. In short, Ark doesn't even know what he's doing at all. And another thing, the game is NEVER about saving the world. Maybe he did resurrect and improve it, but that simply ends there. If we remember Yomi's phrase about Ark being a "god". Ark did act as one. He gave life to Earth, He led the development of civilization, but never did he do something to protect mankind. It's sort of like deism. In fact, I don't think Ark ever cared about what happens on Earth. He probably just did everything as atonement for openning the pandora box. Btw, to prove this, let's take into account the case of Neotokio. When everyone there got wiped by the virus, did Ark vent anger? break into tears? lament? No. He simply went there to check it out. Why? He never cared. It was never his task the save mankind. At the end, he never regreted of being not able to save mankind, but of wasting his life for doing something nonbenefitial to him. Truly, he really is just a child. encounters a wacko who usually says, "Fool, you'll never defeat me.", Yes and No. Nothing of this kind you'll see in tn. But if you're talking about a small fry like the guy from Dragoon castle, yes there is. But the wacko I meant was the Big bad boss. Sorry, didn't specify clearly :p. And no, the big bad boss does not show himself, nor does he lets himself be heard. Ark is oblivious that he has to face a big bad boss. meets friends, Again, sorry :O. The friends I meant here are people you join in your journey and battles. No. Ark fights alone. I think it's his own choice too. Never did he ask for help from others, probably because he knows that he's different from them. But it's the others that volutnarily helped him. meets a girl and falls in love, No. If you meant Elle, I don't think they fell in love with each other. But rather, they're more like friends. Besides, Ark doesn't MEET Elle. They've been friends from the start, not strangers who suddenly meet and fall in love with each other. guy and company becomes stronger, Yes. Ark did get stronger, in plot, by the use of the Hero armor and Hero pike (Although I think Alpha rod works better). Until now, I've been wondering where the Hero pike came from, and how did they know that there's a "hero". faces the big bad boss, Yes and No. Again, sorry. My phrase was too vague. To emphasize it more clearly, It's "locating the big bad boss and chasing him". For games like Lufia 2, you are given specific locations and instructions on how to get to the big bad boss. Lead the women to the barriers, and use your air ship to kamikaze into Doom island. But meeting the bad boss where you expect to finally live happily ever after is really depressing. But if the player is imaginative, They'll already have a hint that Crysta would be the battleground of the last boss. In Beruga's death, he mentions D. gaia, thus arousing suspicion of a big bad boss! defeats the big bad boss, Yes. After whacking d.gaia, she dies. hmm. That's pretty much it. and everyone lives happily ever after. No. Quite the opposite. Surely, everyone knows what I'm talking about. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Snow_rock Posted 8/4/2006 12:54:00 AM message detail		Add to the ending. It can be happy if Ark did appear at the door, or maybe he won't. Either way, it's still a sad ending. Even if Ark gets to live with L.Elle, she is still not the Elle who is Ark's friend. Also, losing Crysta and all its townspeople is already a bad end. It's the only place Ark has been looking forward too despite seeing the grandeur of mother Earth. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 8/4/2006 9:35:37 AM message detail		Well, I respectfully disagree with your opinions about the game, and would thusly like to debate them :D! For the omen thing, well, If you're going go with a literal definition of omen, then yes, this game differes from the stoyrline you described, however so do several other games, by the same token though, friggin every Final Fantasy is different from the basic storyline you set out (I consider sephiroth to be a little beyond the threshold for "omen"). And aside from that, there is an omen, Ark gets told that Beruga is screwing up the earth, and he goes to stop them, why? Now, my memory is hazy, but I don't believe stopping Beruga was anywhere in the base mission plan that Ark recieved from Elder. I mean, Elder wanted Beruga to destroy the earth. On that note, it's a little ridiculous to say that reviving the earth from nothingness back to prosperity isn't saving the earth. I mean, come on. When you say a wacko, is this also literal? If it isn't (I will once again cite Final Fantasies, cause they're so main stream), then every damn final fantasy breaks that trend too, Ultimecia is not really a wack job, I mean, kind of, but not really. Beruga, incidentily, is a wack job. I do agree that the final boss isn't technically introduced early, but to me, that seems like a mute point. For the friends section, are you kidding? What about perel, meilin, the monk, fryda, and the blue haired guy? People physically joining your party is impossible given the contraints of the combat system, but as much as they can, you do get people to help you out in your journey. You can call technicality on me and say that none of them join your party, but that would be a silly thing to say. Ark and Elle were in love. There's like 40 examples of it in the game, play it again and look for them, I'll throw a couple of them at you though. The scene where Meilin uses Elle to mainpulate Ark's heart (I believe in Bloody Mary's castle?) Ark saves Elle at least 3 times, Elle stays up all night making Ark a cape, Elle sacrifices herself for Ark. Faces the big bad boss? No question, you fight friggin' Dark Gaia and he's huge. The last boss of Chrono Cross wasn't technically revealed til a few hours before the end of the game, but you still fought it. We can all agree that he defeates Dark Gaia, but I think whether you think it's a happy ending or not, is a personal opinion that can't really be argued with facts. I think it's a happy ending, or at least, bitter sweet. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 8/4/2006 7:44:20 PM message detail		So, we engage in the age-old debate over originality. Ah, an all too familiar turf for me; it's something like a well-worn road (and about as fun to travel down). Well, if we really wanted to get down to it, everything is a derivative of The Epic of Gilgamesh and the like, which themselves are a derivative of oral traditions and lores, which are derivatives of simple stories concocted by early man, which are derivatives of grunts and whatnot describing life. Whoo. Don't stories just sound fascinating? I'm going to the library to check out some derivatives of derivatives of derivatives of derivatives of early man's guttural utterances. ^_^; It's true. Virtually every RPG's story has the generic "save the world" theme for a central plot. But is there any use in stripping it down that far? What I'm saying is that originality at that level is a moot point to debate, since everything can be reduced to about the same common denominator. Doesn't mean it should be, however. Execution and development, not the core of the story, is the key. That's what Terranigma truly did right. Not to say I've not got a few points I'd like to refute (or at least, discuss). For the omen thing, well, If you're going go with a literal definition of omen, then yes, this game differes from the stoyrline you described, however so do several other games, by the same token though, friggin every Final Fantasy is different from the basic storyline you set out (I consider sephiroth to be a little beyond the threshold for "omen"). What definition of "omen" would you have us use, then? ^_^ But I think I know what you mean. The literal definition is not suited for our purposes. Foreshadowing, perhaps, and atmosphere (at least, initially), are more proper. What makes Terranigma differ in this respect is that whereas most games start with a sense of foreboding (some attack on something, somewhere, with some escalating tension and grandiose group versus group conflict), Terranigma starts with a very hopeful outlook; you resurrect a dead world. With each Final Fantasy (as an example, but also RPGs in general), the opening consists of some doom-saying and whatnot, or the precursor to some large-scale conflict. The situation degenerates immediately from there, spiraling down into ever more hopelessness. Terranigma, however, opens with a minor quest that involves and entails no external conflict, in which the initial problem is solved. Not only that, but Ark proceed into a grand task of resurrecting a world, effectively improving the situation as he goes along. The troubles in the world enter subtly around the midpoint of the game, and things fall apart as they do in most stories (because hey, it wouldn't be interesting if everything was sunshine and rainbows) only after Beruga's re-awakening.* Thus, Terranigma differentiates itself from the get-go. As for "omens", being told by someone that someone is doing something evil is not an omen. An omen would be if Ark saw and was disconcerted by the vaguely defined beginnings of the biological weapon Beruga uses. But you are right in that very few games utilize this plot device (because, really, it is very, very hokey and hard to pull off in a satisfying way). *As an aside, the Chrono games come to mind as games which does not immediately toss you into some major conflict, but the situation begins to degenerate immediately as it does in most games.
nepheliad Posted 8/4/2006 7:46:47 PM message detail		(Cont.) He gave life to Earth, He led the development of civilization, but never did he do something to protect mankind. It's sort of like deism. In fact, I don't think Ark ever cared about what happens on Earth. He probably just did everything as atonement for openning the pandora box. Btw, to prove this, let's take into account the case of Neotokio. When everyone there got wiped by the virus, did Ark vent anger? break into tears? lament? No. He simply went there to check it out. Why? He never cared. It was never his task the save mankind. At the end, he never regreted of being not able to save mankind, but of wasting his life for doing something nonbenefitial to him. Truly, he really is just a child. I've made some comments on Ark's character in the past. I believe that initially, he went on the quest out of self-centered boredom, wholly indifferent to the outcome; the game portrays him as a boy who finds the tranquility of the idyllic Crysta too stifling, thus channeling his energy into trouble-making. Getting out there and resurrecting the world was just something interesting to occupy his time with. This is shown by his general ambivalence to leaving Crysta (whereas Elle was in tears over it, he said nothing and proceeded to leave). However, as time went on, he began to realize that Crysta was home, and that home was someplace special, someplace comforting that he wanted to be (especially noticeable in his little soliloquy after Elle's death, but even before then). As such, he begins to care for something other than his own contentment - home. As things progress and the world reveals its nature, his character loses the self-centered attitude (though not selfish - he wasn't consciously focused on himself; it was more like a child who doesn't realize that there is more to the world than self-indulgence), becoming the hero willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of the greater good. I don't think he had the mindset of a child through the entire game, but he had the purity of one (which connects to the ambiguity in "dark" and "light" in Terranigma). As such, he does save the world out of his selflessness; after all, what did he have to gain, as opposed to what he probably was at least somewhat aware that he'd lose? Also, IIRC, he had a line in the end in which he basically said he did what he did because it was his world (that he created), out of a sense of duty (and probably of caring). I have no commentary on the "wacko" statement, since Beruga is, IMO, the game's token "wacko". However, I must say that Beruga does break the mold in some aspects; his motive isn't to destroy, nor rule/control the world (mind, the Mosque cultists don't seem to be actually acquainted with him) - it seems to be to make the world a better place by, albeit in a immoral way, eliminating the unnecessary in an odd sort of streamlining. This idea has been proposed by scientists and philosophers, among others (not in as extreme a way, of course). Regarding Dark Gaia, the game was very ambiguous; it's likely that it was some variant of controlling the surface world, yet it is also possible that D.G. just wanted to attain a perfection different from that of L.G.'s (who probably represents freedom of choice).
nepheliad Posted 8/4/2006 7:48:21 PM message detail		(Cont. Part II) For the friends section, are you kidding? What about perel, meilin, the monk, fryda, and the blue haired guy? People physically joining your party is impossible given the contraints of the combat system, but as much as they can, you do get people to help you out in your journey. You can call technicality on me and say that none of them join your party, but that would be a silly thing to say. Hmm. For friends, Ark sure keeps them at arms length. They seem mere acquaintances at best, unlike in other RPGs, in which the friends, playable or not, illicit some kind of emotion from the character. Ark, however, treats these people with general ambivalence. He has stiff, rigid scenes with Fyda, Royd, Meihou, and Kumari in which, even if he acts his normal self, it seems out of place, and in scenes involving Meilin, he is more irked by her being there than anything. Perel (and possibly Columbus) is the closest thing to a friend that he has on the surface world, but this seems to be a friendship forged out of convenience. These characters never go beyond being recurring characters. Doesn't mean that he hasn't any, or is antisocial, simply that, unlike in other games, friendship is not highlighted in Terranigma. I think this is to reinforce the idea of and give the player a feeling of the isolation, loneliness, and homesickness that Ark probably experience, being out of place in a world not his own; his interactions with the plants and animals are more natural than some of those with humanity. It's no wonder, then, that he was hurt and shocked by Yomi's betrayal, since Yomi was one of very few whom he had "friendly" interaction with. There's no doubt in my mind that Ark was extremely close to Elle. However, just what kind of relationship they had is a bit more questionable, since nothing is explicit, or even heavily implied, in comparison to other games. Ark isn't the kind to make many particularly close friends; like many boys, he doesn't open up easily. Elle was the closest person to him, whether he viewed her as a best friend, a "sibling", or a love interest. As I've iterated, he doesn't have anyone else, so when Meilin conjured up the thing closest to his heart, it's likely that, even he and Elle were merely close friends, she'd be the form it took. If one doesn't have a romantic love, and have no family to speak of, wouldn't a strong platonic love be the next in line? Not to say that I don't think they are in love (because I happen to); I'm merely saying that there is an argument to be made that their love is a strong platonic one. In any case, the handling of it makes it special - it is subtle, understated, and gentle, unlike the generic, blatant video game romance, unfettered by any others (not even Light Elle). Faces the big bad boss? No question, you fight friggin' Dark Gaia and he's huge. The last boss of Chrono Cross wasn't technically revealed til a few hours before the end of the game, but you still fought it. Something of a quibble with this. Snow_rock did say that he meant "chase" the bad guy, something featured prominently in most Final Fantasies, and Ark didn't do that. He didn't have to hunt down Beruga (his accidental release of Beruga is another stroke of differentiation). Chrono Cross did feature more of a "chase", simply because even if it wasn't by name, they have some notion to seek it out, though I agree that it wasn't much of one, either. Hey, the argument isn't that Terranigma is wholly original (because what is?); it's that it doesn't go with the majority.
nepheliad Posted 8/4/2006 7:53:50 PM message detail		(Cont. Part III) We can all agree that he defeates Dark Gaia, but I think whether you think it's a happy ending or not, is a personal opinion that can't really be argued with facts. I think it's a happy ending, or at least, bitter sweet. That ambiguity and allowing for the player to decide is even more out of the ordinary, in my experience, than an out-and-out sad ending (or, obviously, the generic happy ending). Personally, being the cynic, I took it as depressive, or, at most, double-edged - opposite ends of the spectrum, eh? ^_^ Terranigma's ending encompasses almost all of said spectrum; I could see an argument for it being a wholly happy ending (released from his burdens, reunited with Elle, hope-filled world, the kindness of fate not having him endure humdrum life after unparalleled adventure, flying towards freedom), and one for it being a wholly sad ending (unrecognized for his work, parted from Elle, unresolved issues in an uncertain world, the uncaring nature of fate in his death, flying representing soul departing the world of the living). How many video games' endings can you say that truly covers such a range of things? Barring the emotions evoked by it and its artistic presentation (which we shouldn't have a difference over; thread's devoted to the ending, so I figure you must have liked it if you said nothing to the contrary), it still has a lot to deliver that other conclusions fail to offer. To sum it up - can we reduce it down to the old formula? Yes. Any story can be peeled down to reveal it. Even the most brilliant of novels can be reduced to one of about a handful of core concepts. Thus, to appreciate a story, the patron must look a step or so above, at the things that separate, or should separate, stories. Looking at it from the intricacy of the tale it wove, and the original, intriguing elaborations and spins on the tale is what makes Terranigma different from many other video games, and indeed, the majority of stories in general. Can you tell I am utterly enamored with Terranigma? ^^; I think this is the longest post on this board, surpassing even IRS's massive plot theory from the way-back-when... XD If you stuck with this the whole way through, then kudos to you, because my god, this was long. That's around 2200 words, and just under 13000 characters... I've got to stop doing this. >_< --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 8/4/2006 8:43:06 PM message detail		Wow. Am I glad that the board is lighting up. Thanks for your reply. really led me to think hard XP If you're going go with a literal definition of omen again...sorry for being unspecific :D. I didn't mean omen as something that happened like lightning crashing everywhere and earthquakes piecing out continents, but rather just simply something bad happening. but I don't believe stopping Beruga was anywhere in the base mission plan that Ark recieved from Elder. hmm...now that you say that, maybe that action led to a disruption of D.gaia's plan, thus allowing beruga to die. just my opinion. it's a little ridiculous to say that reviving the earth from nothingness back to prosperity isn't saving the earth. (I'll use "upgrade" to term "creating and prospering". I don't know the exact word:D) There's a difference between saving and upgrading earth. For example, you create Earth and help people improve it. That's upgrading. you're not protecting someone who is facing destruction. However, if world war 2 breaks out, and Ark does something to stop it, that's saving. Upgrading is providing people with the knowledge for survival. Sure. Knowledge, or science, to be more specific, saves lives. But that's more of protecting Earth's health and safety. But to use "save" is to stop an eminent adversity from destroying Earth as soon as possible. Ark faces bosses. But these bosses in Chap 1-2 aren't destroying Earth. In fact, Earth's already destroyed. It is by destroying these creatures that the world is resurrected, but not really saved. In Chap 3, the bosses aren't much related to upgrading, except the sea serpent. Now, if we talk about boss Beruga machine that if not destroyed would rampage around the world resulting in a need of someone who will save the world, ...AGH! I'm stumped here. When you say a wacko, is this also literal Nah. That doesn't have to be literal. saying "big bad boss" is too boring :)) --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Snow_rock Posted 8/4/2006 8:45:29 PM message detail		What about perel, meilin, the monk, fryda, and the blue haired guy? They make your journey easier. But they don't fight with you. You don't fight Beruga machine with meilin doing a flying kick, or perel doing a tony hawk explosion. After joining you on a journey, They leave you in battles. Taken from my prev. post, The friends I meant here are people you join in your journey and battles. Not like Squal with a punching dude and a whipping teacher. but it would be cool if someone joins Ark. Then it could be two players! The scene where Meilin uses Elle to mainpulate Ark's heart (I believe in Bloody Mary's castle?) Ark saves Elle at least 3 times, Elle stays up all night making Ark a cape, Elle sacrifices herself for Ark. won't a friend do that for you? Anyhoo, Taken from my prev. post, meets a girl and falls in love, In Lufia 2, maxim meets selan. In ff8, squall meets rinoa. Their cases are more of romantic love. But I like to add that Elle and Ark's bond is stronger than those from Lf2 and ff8 because they've known each other since childhood. They didn't meet And by the storyline, Elle is the first to consult Ark whenever he does mischief. This friendship seems really strong, that's why Elle is what appeared in Ark's hallucination. btw, imo romance is not a bond that's a level higher than friendship. Not because Elle and Ark are so close together means that they're romantically in love with each other. Besides, they're still children. last boss of Chrono Cross wasn't technically revealed til a few hours before the end of the game lol never played this game. but great example btw. I wasn't saying tn was the only game with that concept. but I think whether you think it's a happy ending or not, is a personal opinion that can't really be argued with facts. my answer is in my post before this. post no.361 --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
nepheliad Posted 8/4/2006 9:26:48 PM message detail		Thanks a lot, Snow_rock. Now people won't even read my massive post, 13000 word post. XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 8/4/2006 9:41:37 PM message detail		I did:D I say your posts show years of analysis, and gaming experience. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 8/5/2006 11:54:07 AM message detail		Well neph, in response to your long responses (and I did read all of them), I return to my original response: "And in a lot of ways Terranigma holds on to that formula, but (and now I'll show how I agree with you) it does have a lot of extra character depth, and plot depth, so that they can force you to ask questions without moving away from the basic story." But anyway, I feel like now we're trading technicalities with broad generalizations. The presentation of Ark as a child is interesting. I think when I've played through it, I've always just got really into his character, so I felt like our ideals colided. I can see resurrecting the world being not nearly as epic for him as for other characters, but it felt epic for me. I mean, they play the music and show the scene...whatever. Anyway, I can't really argue for saving the world, cause I apparently have a distinctly different view of what saving the world is, so whatever there. But I would still argue about making friends and elle + ark being in love. For the friends, at the very least, Meilin and Perel. You make lots of "arms length friends" but Meilin and Perel actually go with you places and help you out. Perel helps you in Dragoon castle, and in my own opinion, meilin puts too many moves on you for her not to at least play a multirole of "friend" and D.I.D. I mean hell, going back to chrono cross, you don't interact with 3/4ths of your party members as you do with any of the 'friends" we've listed in tn (Though that's partially because there's friggin 40 of them..) As for Elle and Ark, it's really hard with girls( and I mean no offense by this :D) to say whether they love someone or they're jsut really good friends. I think Elle crying when Ark leaves or sacraicing herself, can go either way, fine, whatever. But on Ark's end, the most convincing scene for me is when he sees, and is practically taunted by the images of both Light and Dark Elle. IF it was merely a platonic relationship why would that scene have any power? Ark can have two friends, but he's not a hippy, so he can't be in love with two girls. And by that point it's already well established that they're completly different. I mean, I guess "they're in love" might be too strong of a phrase, but I think there is certainly a high, albeit subtle, level of romance. Which is just part of why tn is so great. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 8/7/2006 5:10:29 AM message detail		You make lots of "arms length friends" but Meilin and Perel actually go with you places and help you out. I repeat. "The friends I meant here are people you join in your journey and battles." Like Maxim and Guy, Like Crono and Luca, or like Red XIII and Cloud!! I didn't mean people who just help you, but extra characters that you can control. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
nepheliad Posted 8/8/2006 11:32:05 AM message detail		But anyway, I feel like now we're trading technicalities with broad generalizations. You're not just feeling it. We are quibbling over semantics, but hey, it's more interesting than simply spouting random exaltations (which I suppose is what this thread was originally for, but...). ^_^; The presentation of Ark as a child is interesting. I think when I've played through it, I've always just got really into his character, so I felt like our ideals colided. I can see resurrecting the world being not nearly as epic for him as for other characters, but it felt epic for me. I mean, they play the music and show the scene...whatever. And as a child-like character, I expect that he was all the more in awe of the things he saw. However, he seems like the kind whose thirst for adventure (or at least something to occupy his time with) is unquenchable in the beginning; this definitely died down in the second half or so of the game. I was referring mostly to Crysta; I'm sure that the novelty of anything in Crysta for Ark had long worn off by the beginning of the game. Though he does seem to take life in a very blase way, considering. For the friends, at the very least, Meilin and Perel. You make lots of "arms length friends" but Meilin and Perel actually go with you places and help you out. Perel helps you in Dragoon castle, and in my own opinion, meilin puts too many moves on you for her not to at least play a multirole of "friend" and D.I.D. I mean hell, going back to chrono cross, you don't interact with 3/4ths of your party members as you do with any of the 'friends" we've listed in tn (Though that's partially because there's friggin 40 of them..) Well, you're right in that they do help him out in his journeys. That makes them recurring characters. However, does that make them friends? They have common tasks, and seem to meet by happenstance or being sent to the same location, not by any friendly arrangement (aside from Meilin stalking Ark). It's not that they don't interact with him at all - in fact, they do, and quite often, if by interact we mean simply bumping into one another. However, with Meilin, this is due to an unrequited crush, and Perel often has some agenda of his own - even if they happen to be the same, they were not coordinated. Their interactions (and not lack thereof) are telling of a sort of rift between them, in my opinion, since Ark treats Perel with ambivalence, and Meilin with that at best. Notably, though, he did watch and commend Perel's skateboarding, which, among a few other things, convinces me that he did consider Perel a friend, even if not a close one. Also, most video games have the characters develop fairly deep, involved relationships and friendships with people they meet; Ark's only relationship with that kind of depth is that with Elle.
nepheliad Posted 8/8/2006 11:33:03 AM message detail		But on Ark's end, the most convincing scene for me is when he sees, and is practically taunted by the images of both Light and Dark Elle. IF it was merely a platonic relationship why would that scene have any power? Ark can have two friends, but he's not a hippy, so he can't be in love with two girls. And by that point it's already well established that they're completly different. I mean, I guess "they're in love" might be too strong of a phrase, but I think there is certainly a high, albeit subtle, level of romance.. Hey, I concur; as I've said, I personally loved what I found to be a subtle, understated, well-handled romance (as opposed to one of the generic blatant romantic fairy tale with contrived twists). Or, at least, the budding of one that never got the chance to fully blossom. :( Where is said scene with Light Elle, though? I only recall him being confronted by Dark Elle (which, BTW, doesn't seem wholly congruous with your next sentence, but perhaps I'm reading it wrong...>_>). The impact of this is that this is his a friend from his childhood, and his dearest one at that; with his lack of familial ties, and if he harbored no romantic feelings, this would be his closest, deepest, yet platonic relationship. Does this lessen the impact? Perhaps. However, it is conceivable with what the game has given, and is beautiful in and of itself. As for the two Elles, the logical (in terms of commonly accepted conventions) response to Light Elle's query on the ship would be that they are not so dissimilar as they might outwardly seem (though I'm the first to say that Terranigma doesn't always follow such conventions). Also, he seems to feel something towards Light Elle that doesn't seem wholly attributed to her physical resemblance to Dark Elle, though that may be just some vibe I got.Oh, and don't worry about possibly offending me on most issues of gender (unless you manage to be blatantly insulting); in fact, I readily agree that it can be quite difficult to tell. I don't fully comprehend said aspect of our nature, though, since I am the rare female INTP... ^_^; It's also why I am not as sensitive as some to that kind of statement. "The friends I meant here are people you join in your journey and battles." Like Maxim and Guy, Like Crono and Luca, or like Red XIII and Cloud!! I didn't mean people who just help you, but extra characters that you can control. Vespertilio said it well: People physically joining your party is impossible given the contraints of the combat system... Terranigma is an ARPG; a lone playable character is hardly rare in this genre. It's not that the function is impossible (the Seiken Densetsus on the SNES proved that the system had that capability), but that the creators of the game didn't include it for gameplay purposes, not storyline purposes, making it no different from any Zelda or most Zelda-like games. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 8/8/2006 1:47:51 PM message detail		I can agree with what you say of perel and meilin, but I wonder, in the original context of the discussion (where I said that you did in fact make friends over the course of your adventure, who help you), would you still not consider them "friends"? Although it's a loose fit, I think it still works. As for the Light and Dark Elle scene, I'm trying to remember where it is. But I don't know if I could tell you outright. I really wanna say it's in a castle somewhere, like, Dragoon or Bloody Mary's castle. and I'm mostly sure it's a product of meilin being a female dog (if you know what I mean). But that's about all I can remember... --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 8/15/2006 6:51:34 PM message detail		That's when the two elle's spin around you and fyda tries to wake you up. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 8/18/2006 1:02:11 AM message detail		Yeah, I LOVE that scene, where is it? --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Azulo Posted 8/18/2006 10:36:47 AM message detail		Now this is an interesting topic I think I could bring one or two things to the discussion, but I'll read everything first --- «[K.S.Z]»
nepheliad Posted 8/18/2006 8:20:57 PM message detail		Good luck, Azulo! And Snow_rock, where is said scene? I don't even recall it happening. That indicates to me that I ought to go play the game again. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
chucklaplante Posted 8/19/2006 9:13:58 AM message detail		Hello ! I think i ll have to read all this also (I just finished the game, and i did it by little bits this year... I must confess I have the impression that I have not really understood the game, especially since I forgot so much... plus, it seems to me that the french translation is terrible) Anyway, I loved the game ! So I sought something explicative (at least interpretative), and I m happy to have found this ! I don't think I recall the confrontation you re talking about... But near the end of chapter 3, after given the order to kill Ark by "Yomi" (it was quite a good scenaristic surprise, but i still don't understand why after that he s still there, and nice again... there was a dark one, i suppose, but nothing is explained in my french version), "Celina" (dark Elle, it seems) asks Ark which of the girls he prefers... you have the choice, I tried both, and the two answers lead to the same : Ark can't forget that one of the two "sacrificied" herself for him... Along with the music and the hesitation of this scene, it sure looks to me as romance (kind of shy, complicated, untold, but romance no doubt!) Ok, I ll check the topic, see you ;)
chucklaplante Posted 8/19/2006 11:45:26 AM message detail		Wow !!! It took time to read, but at last i have explications, and refreshed "souvenirs" of the game (who I even love better, now !)... So what I said just before was not very interesting (and more, it's wrong: the scene occurs at chapter 4 ), and I m also sorry for the double post ! I still don't understand the part with Yomi... If she's the same, why don't she try again to kill Ark ? I read what was written on Yomi, but still don't understand (my english, maybe)... Anyway, great thanks for this topic !!! ;)
Vespertilio Posted 8/21/2006 3:25:26 PM message detail		That's pretty substantially different from the english version, or I've totally forgotten that scene. That's pretty interesting, and kind of works with the plot. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 8/21/2006 5:08:45 PM message detail		I'm fairly sure he meant light, since light Elle did ask that very question after dark Elle sacrificed herself. I couldn't see a reason for such a substantial difference between versions; since dark Elle's lines in that event did not include questions which prompt the player's response, they would have had to change the programming (or something hasslesome to that effect) to give a prompt, and I can't see them going through the trouble. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
chucklaplante Posted 8/21/2006 7:49:31 PM message detail		Yes, she was the "light one"... I'm confused with the color of the characters in this non-conventional RPG ;) But the point was that in my opinion, you can talk of romance, or at least Love between those two (or four, or five even with a grey Ark... argh, I m losing it again !), not just strong friendship... That is more interesting than usual, because the "hero" is so complicated, and his rare reactions are equally strange... At first, I thought it was a narrative technique which goal was to facilitate the personification of the gamer, or even that the directors of the game didn't bother to make a character coherent... Now, especially since I read this topic, I wonder if Ark is not a depressed cynical ! It's a little sad that I played this game missing so much (even worse than having played the fantastic silent hill 2 already knowing the principal end because of a f---ing friend !)... well, at least I have great a posteriori pleasure ! Now for my next SNES RPG, I will be more vigilant (especially if I play another one of this trilogy) !
Vespertilio Posted 8/23/2006 12:35:49 AM message detail		We have quite a few dissenting opinions, but I'm pretty sure Ark's not a depressed cynic, a depressed cynic would never bother to stop Dark Gaia, I would think he'd just accept that evil had won, and go eat a muffin or something. You might want to consider going back and playing it again, now that you know what to look for, that way you can pick up on things the second time through. On a side note though, I didn't finish illusion of gaia, but I'm pretty sure terranigma is easily the most complex of the lot of the series. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 8/26/2006 11:03:08 PM message detail		A post overdue... I'm slipping. XD I dunno, Vespertilio - Ark definitely had a cynical streak; his dialogue brought it across quite well. Sure, it was intended to portray him as smart-alecky, but as misfortune begins to befall him, I could hardly interpret his reactions any other way. As for depressed, I'd argue he may have well been disenchanted with the machinations of the world, and been overall disheartened after Elle's death. He who had been so loquacious (in comparison to other main characters of the day - so much so as to whimsically reprimand himself out loud), suddenly tacit; he had few lines after (discounting the preexisting dialogue that repeats with the NPCs, since that's merely a programming issue). It's no stretch of the imagination to think him, if not outrightly depressed, at least disillusioned, in my opinion. What would spur him on? Well, the game gives a valid one; in his final exchange with Yomi, the latter notes that Ark had a unexpected (or perhaps, unexpectedly strong) sense of duty. Also, being cynical and disillusioned does not necessarily entail wholly giving up. It seems to be in Ark's nature to keep going, come what may, though there may be no reason - a sort of mandatory trait for hero characters, since they experience greater hardship than the average person could cope with. Also, my interpretation of his character and his development affords me a further reason - he's become nigh Altruistic by that point, and genuinely wants to do good for others, regardless of what he may feel about things. Finally, often, a depressed person feels that he/she has nothing to lose. Coupled with any of the aforementioned reasonings, it may have driven him to challenge Dark Gaia, for he had no fears of losing anything dear to him - it had already been lost. The person closest to him is dead, his life and quest deceptive and suspect, his home revealed to be basically an illusion - what does he have to lose? And here is something that may be worth doing - be it out of selflessness, a sense of responsibility, instinct, or desire for retribution. In fact, that is why I believe that Dark Elle's death was pivotal, and indeed, part of the construct of whatever entity arbitrates and guides the world. Past the revelations of his origins and the nature of his quest, she stood as the obstacle that would prevent him from devoting himself to destroying D.G. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 8/26/2006 11:05:23 PM message detail		As for complexity, IoG is not nearly as involved as far as I can tell; however, I've never tried to delve as in-depth into it as I have Terranigma, so my opinion isn't worth much. I suppose its story's lackluster presentation and lack of the nuances that Terranigma's possesses in abundance simply failed to draw me in. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 8/27/2006 2:02:14 PM message detail		Perhaps this is once again a matter of me putting myself into Ark while playing TN (it's something I end up doing with most of the games I play), but I still cannot label him as a "depressed cynic". Circumstances of course, lead him to disilllusionment, and he's certainly a smart aleck, but perhaps when I think of "depressed cynic" my picture (which would be more along the lines of Squall from the begining of FF8, or friggin' marvin from Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy) is quite a bit different from Ark, who at least started the game as a light hearted miscreant. He certainly endured a lot, but his conversations with Yomi for the most part still have that boyish charm to him. Maybe that's why I would have trouble buying it. This is kinda why I said we all have dissenting opinions :P. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 8/27/2006 9:26:07 PM message detail		Well, Squall...he's just...yeah. ^_^; If you use him as a measure, there would be a great reduction in the number of people diagnosed with depression. How did you interpret his sudden taciturnity following Elle's death, then? :S Perhaps depression is too strong a word, but he seemed no longer the light-hearted miscreant (to borrow your apt description ^_^) that he had been. His remaining dialogue lacks the spark, for lack of a better word, that his lines prior had had. Or perhaps my memory is failing me. I'd personally leave him as "cynic", since, though perhaps disillusioned, he nevertheless perseveres, and his character, to me, seems endowed with purity that would not allow melancholy to darken his heart/mind/soul. I just like taking the opposite side of a well-conceived point of view. ^_^ Dissenting opinions make life worthwhile. Otherwise, we'd all be "Borg-ed"! XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 8/28/2006 7:30:17 AM message detail		Hmm, hard to say, I myself was really moved when I saw it. I guess it would make more sense to me that he'd feel a wide range of emotions, but let's simplify and say that he's confused and awe-struck. I would be too, especially with Light Elle existing at all, which already has added to his confusion. To me, that would actually supply it's own set of reasons to take down Dark Gaia. A lot of the time when you're confused, you feel like you just have to do SOMETHING, and Ark could be pretty sure that most of the things that had gone wrong in his life up to that point had been the fault of Dark Gaia/elder, which mixes with/is augmented by/is the cause of his altruisim, I dare say. Or perhaps he even was depressed by it, and partially wanted revenge. I'm trying to think back to that scene, and I feel like when I watched it, killing Dark Gaia just seemed like it was the next thing I should do, for Dark Elle! For Freedom! and stuff. I guess he could still be a cynic. If I had revived the world and seen all its ages, I guess I would be a cynic too...but cynic just has such a negative connotation, that it doesn't really seem accurate. Hope you're not borged. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 8/30/2006 9:42:25 AM message detail		I'm really sorry for being irrelevant (like I always am), but I just want to add something. TN has something, or rather, doesn't have something that most rpgs have, and that is auto-movement. Auto-move is when you lose control of the character and the computer itself leads the main character to another destination. Take note how it's up to you to move whenever you're tasked to follow someone, like Turbo or Leim. Now, what does this have to do with D. gaia? Versper, you talked about Ark planning revenge. And, being a vague person, my mind was plagued with thought relating to that after reading your post. Is Ark urged to go to the underworld instantly? No. Most RPGs are about saving the world. So, the protagonists are always "in a hurry". They have to reach the evil boss as soon as possible. In the latter part of tn, Ark is not rushed by anyone. He can go to the underworld anytime he wants. In fact, he can stay on Earth. So, saving is not an element here. Nor, is time. Therefore, I thought of the one thing left for Ark, decision. Now, looking back to my previous paragraphs, what does decision have to do with the game having no "auto-moves"? Along the course of the game, Ark is faced with decisions. Throwing a pot, jamming a machine, or reconciling a daughter with her parents. Everything you do is absolutely your choice alone! Notice that there are no place warps, where the hero is asked a favor and the scenario is suddenly switched to somewhere else. Of course, there are times when you get knocked out(end of chap2) and then you wake up somewhere else. But that is something you can't decide on. Now, how about the decisions which you have to choose to proceed on your journey? That is where fate kicks in. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Snow_rock Posted 8/30/2006 9:56:42 AM message detail		Now, let me list the course of events. Because of Ark's natural curiosity, being the only mischievous person on the village, proximity to the pandora box and having strong arms, he is the perfect candidate to break open the door and delve into the oblivion, and even dare to disobey the elder. Because Ark opened the box, he had to leave behind Elle and the village. Because he left the village, he was able to help Earth, Ark made it possible to help people become smarter. Because of "creating" intelligence, Ark made it possible to create Beruga. Because of creating Beruga, Ark faced near-death, thus hearing about the Star stones. Because of the activation of the star stones, Ark inherited light blood, thus resulting to a murder attempt of D.elle. Because of D. elle's death, Ark planned revenge. Because Ark planned revenge, he died. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Snow_rock Posted 8/30/2006 10:19:07 AM message detail		Truly, Fate is unavoidable. But you can stall it. But that doesn't help at all, because certain forces will keep pushing you until finally, you accomplish your fate. In the beginning, Ark is shown strong, mischievous and easily affected by peer pressure. He can just avoid the Pandora box and live happily ever after. You can just run around Crysta and chuck pumpkins which never seem to run out. But the peculiar blue door strikes attention. People want to open it. It's kinda symbolic. The others do have minds of mischief but they're not strong enough. "Not strong" in a sense that they can't open the door AND take on a journey to resurrect Earth. There may be other symbols but this is what I recall for now. By the time Ark reaches Earth, The major force pushing him from chapter 2 to 4 is returning to crysta and seeing elle. After D.elle is killed, Ark's driving force is now to avenge her. Wrapping up, the story states that fate is part of a balance in life. If you somehow try to avoid it, you can't. Someday you'll have to follow it. Ark could've lived happily with D.elle. He could've stayed on Earth with his friends perel, meilin and the gang. Heck, he could've stayed on Earth with L.elle after d.elle dies and live happily ever after. Unfortunately, fate is cruel. Uhmm...you guys would realize that I relied on events on the game. Frankly, I'm not sure if some events are correct. So if one event is wrong, my whole analysis is shattered. waaahhh...lol can someone pls check if the events I used are correct? --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 8/30/2006 4:53:40 PM message detail		The events you used are more or less correct Snowy, though I'm not sure about that "inherited light blood" thing, but whatever. I'm a little confused about your thesis. You talk about "auto-move" like it's a consistent feature in RPGs today. But it isn't really...in FF7 you can fly around the world forever (I spent about 4 years...) despite the meteor hanging in the sky. In Tales of Symphonia apparently (I haven't actually played it myself) there's a point where they tell you once you cross there's no turning back, but as soon as you cross, a whole barnful of side quests open up. This was actually kind of the point of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, in that you HAVE to do things in a timely fashion, or you will die. But I might disagree with your claim that story talks about fate as if it were unavoidable, simply because the protaganist is described several times as "existing outside the loop of fate". Fate is definitly part of the story, but your arguements get a little fuzzy here. Rest assured that while most people are fated to do things, and are thus bound by fate, Ark is special because he is not. Despite that, he does end up doing "the right thing". On a side note though, it looks more to me that you really enjoy that the programmers expected you to figure out how to progress, rather then just throwing a cinematic at you. Which I guess is an admirable part of the game. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 8/30/2006 8:16:06 PM message detail		but your arguements get a little fuzzy here. Actually, my whole post is fuzzy itself :D because what I've written is something squeezed from my brain. My words were somewhat half-thinking and half-subconscious. Now, about "inherited light blood", it simply meant getting something from the L.side. By completing the starstone and dying at the north(or south) pole, you were resurrected as a baby. I used "inherit" because Ark was born again. Somehow, I think that by giving Ark a part of the L.side, it acts like offering Ark something by the mother, which at this point is L.gaia. HELP: Was it light gaia who made Ark born again? I forgot. The ending has nothing to do with auto-move. I defined auto-move as an automatic shift of scenario. The ability to make decisions is something else. I used auto-move just to make my arguement on fate in the game clearer. Now, about FF7, "you can fly around the world forever (I spent about 4 years...) despite the meteor hanging in the sky." What I meant here is the aspect of the PLOT, not the GAME itself. In most games, you can stall before the ending. But in storyline speaking, FF7 does require Cloud to hurry. Cloud was clearly given the mission to stop the meteor asap. In tn's storyline case, there was no danger involved if Ark would stall around. After the light from the sky formed a gaping hole on the ground, Ark doesn't have to do anything else. There's no meteor falling in the sky, there's no dragon that could fry. It wouldn't hurt the world if D.gaia won't be defeated. People could still live on without the danger of an evil monster or thing destroying Earth. Now, about "existing outside the loop of fate" I myself didn't understand this sentence. What did the game meant by "fate"? You're right. Ark is not affected by fate. However, he may choose to do so. That's why I included the fact that Ark is not "rushed". It may not be his fate to kill bloody mary, or storm into dragoon castle, or search meilin in zombified louran. But he chose to do so. In fact, the next scenario will not occur if you don't do something first. But there's no need to do such things. What does that have to do with resurrecting the world? The Elder's orders were absolute. "Go to the world. Resurrect it." That's it. Ark did resurrect the world. The plants, animals and humans. But by the beginning of chapter 3, we are baffled. Ark's mission is complete, but why can't I go back to Crysta yet? Is it because there's another living form that Ark must resurrect? Or maybe, Ark is affected by fate. But no, we'll stick on to Ark being outside the loop of fate. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Snow_rock Posted 8/30/2006 8:16:24 PM message detail		The only deduction I can think of is, defining fate specifically as a line controlled by L. gaia. In short, fate is L.gaia. By existing "outside the loop of fate", Ark is not part of L.gaia. Meaning, as Ark moves himself in the L.side, he is free to do what he wants. But if he is free, whatever happened to his decision to go back to Crysta? D.gaia enters the scene. If we look at it in a more layered pictured, we see D.side on top, and L. side below. D. gaia can create a hole on his layer so that Ark can go to the L.side. And its the same other way round. It is D.gaia's decision to throw a light from above to create a hole that can transport Ark to the D.side. But no...D.gaia has other plans for Ark. He can't leave yet even after resurrecting humans. Somehow, D.gaia might have led Ark to resurrect Beruga from the L.side. By using Beruga as a pawn, D.gaia can control both L.side and D.side. At least that's what I think for now...I surely feel there's something wrong with this paragraph. Anyway, let me add a concrete picture of Ark's timeline. Imagine a row of rooms with doors which connect each other. When Ark enters the first room, he can do whatever he wants. But as time passes, the door to the next room will catch his attention. He will enter that door and thus enter a different room. Seeing that it is new, he stays in the room for a while. He doesn't have to move on, but time will feed his curiosity of the door to the next room, and the only way to see inside is to go through the door. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
nepheliad Posted 9/3/2006 5:56:38 PM message detail		Ah, the discussion has gone without me! XD That's not happened in a long while. Anyway, to the subject. I know what you mean, Snow_rock, and that definitely does distinguish Terranigma from other games of the genre. There's no sense of urgency - there is no strong reason to advance, since the world, in most stages of the game, is actually quite tranquil, yet the player is compelled to keep playing to see what calamity will befall. It is not like most games, in which is known a impending catastrophe, and the motivation is to stop it; it is to move forward and see what happens, curiosity piqued. As such, I posit that your final paragraph may bear more relation to the player than Ark. :) As usual, ambiguity clouds the question of who or what was responsible for Ark's rebirth. Light Ark? Light Gaia? Circumstance? Fate? Something even higher (which is the theory I espouse)? As for fate, my interpretation is that the statement that Ark lies outside the loop of fate is a something of a red herring. Fate itself is hard to refute, as is its counterpart, free will. How does one know that your decisions are not already decided? Even if, in the present, you are presented with a choice, how do you know, being unable to perceive the future, that you are not predestined to make the decision? That aside for the moment, it seems to me that if anyone should be ensnared by the loop of fate, it is Ark. Other people's lives are irrelevant to the whole; they may do as they please, save for a few key points to satisfy fate. However, Ark's actions have world changing ramifications. It doesn't seem logical, to me, that everything in Terranigma transpired by mere chance, especially given Ark's personality; something seems to be pulling strings behind the curtains. In my opinion, the only choice in free will that Ark had in the entirety of the game was what happens to the world after Dark Elle's death and Beruga's ploy with the virus. Everything was fated to be up to that point; otherwise, the world is either a failed world or a stagnant one, of no use to either side. Alternatively, the latter half applies, but Kumari's "outside the loop of fate" stands true; Ark, unlike other people, can make a decision free of fate, deciding the fate of the world (thus, outside fate). BTW, nice looonnng posts, Snow_rock. :) Happy to see some serious discourse still taking place here. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Fuji_Akai Posted 9/3/2006 11:51:25 PM message detail		I literally just finished clearing the game about 15 minutes ago (though I've already beat it a few times in the Spanish version--just recently finished in the English) Anyway, I read through the first posts and wow, I'm amazed at how much more clear the game is but how the ending is still total mystery and open for interpretation; I guess that's why it's brought me back so many times and I'm even thinking about re-playing once more and writing the script as I go along (would that be necessary? I mean, the game is really old but I still would like to something like that...) I was even content at how clear things became when someone stated that Fyda and the rest of Henri's army could have killed L.Ark (thus making Fyda say that D.Ark is familiar). BUT heres the thing that doesn't make sense: When Henri's men killed everyone, they all reincarnated as wolves to protect Pandora's box on the light side. L. Elle even states that towards the end of the game; so if L.Ark was a villager of the ill-fated Storkholm (he would've been a normal person too since he was easily killed along with everyone else) shouldn't he have been reincarnated as one too? So, I seriously doubt that Fyda ever met Ark in that lifetime even less likely in Storkholm. I'm sure that "You seem familiar" scene was refering to a past life as Royd also asks Fyda if they have ever met before, and they did, in a previous life. (sorry if somewhere in the discussion this was stated) AND if Ark was part of that village, how the heck did his body (and there are many tombstones there as well, so he and along with the rest of the dead villagers) get from way up north in Storkholm all the way down to Dryvale in the deep cold south? Unless Columbus had anything to do with the burials, being that he did hide Pandora's box in Storkholm. Maybe I'm being too superficial? There is more symbolism than reality... But, as everybody has, I would like to put some of my input on the ending: You all have already gone over how he goes to bed and dreams his last dream and flies around, lands in a forest and next thing we know, light Elle comes in and opens the door and etc. Wouldn't it be rather funny/ironic if Ark did reincarnate as a bird (I'm assuming the both Light and Dark Ark have permanently fused now) and L.Elle found a gull sitting there? XDD I am being too realistic.
Snow_rock Posted 9/4/2006 4:47:45 AM message detail		grunt . I'm not giving up until this thread reaches 50 pages. As usual, ambiguity clouds the question of who or what was responsible for Ark's rebirth. This may have something to do with reincarnation. so if L.Ark was a villager of the ill-fated Storkholm (he would've been a normal person too since he was easily killed along with everyone else) shouldn't he have been reincarnated as one too? before I give my opinion, recall the chronology of events. You meet the wolves. no L.Ark among them. you go to the desert and die. you resurrect as a L.being and acquire the hero equipment. If I remember it right. King Henri's motive was to acquire the legendary items, but the villagers protected it. Somehow, the king quits and leaves the village without further searching. Some power was responsible for reincarnation, and it made the villagers into wolves. There's another power, or the same one, that's responsible for resurrecting Ark. Now this theory only applies if the resurrector and reincarnator are one being. If the both plans were of the same entity, I say he/she planned it quite perfectly to pass on the legendary items. By turning the villagers into wolves, the items were protected. It was for the hero to use. But why did he not acquire it when he first arrived in Storkolm? Well, even if he did get to the Pandora's box, he won't be able to get it because he's from the dark side. But to defeat D.gaia(storywise), you need the legendary weapons. But how do you get the light weapons if you're from the dark side? Easy. Kill D.ark and resurrect him from the l.side. That gives him the ability to hold the L.pandora box and extract the equipment. imo on your question fuji, L.ark's reincarnation can't be a wolf because chances are, he might get killed, thus delaying (or canceling) the resurrection of the hero. The safer way is to hide L.Ark somewhere hidden, somewhere that man can't reach, and that is the north pole. Also, his reincarnation can't be anything besides the body of the hero. If he did resurrect and become something else, how can D.ark find him? Or to be more specific, how can he merge with L.ark if the latter has taken a physical form? So, for a safe way to make the hero resurrection take place, the spirit of L.ark is maintained WITHOUT a body, and merge it with the spirit of D.ark later on. By merging w/ D.ark and killing him at the same time, The two spirits blend and could resurrect in a single body. btw, I was thinking that there's some kind of conspiracy going on around here. Who brought Ark's body? Who brought baby ark to Elle? I think that whatever this moving entity is, a HUMAN is surely involved. And my proof is a seemingly irrelevant detail in the game. The dog whistle. Of course, only humans can only make dog whistles. And dogs, having sensitive hearing, can recognize one whistle from another. But what does that have to do with the human involvement? Take note that the wolves are tasked to protect the village, and the presence of the dog whistle suggests that they are led by someone. We don't have to worry about this guy being a dog trainer who just tasked the wolves to protect the village because as fuji said, L.elle himself said that they are reincarnations of villagers. But training the dog to respond to your whistle requires long experience and interaction with the trainer. Is the human by chance Light Ark?! denden dennn --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 9/4/2006 9:27:38 AM message detail		FOr one thing, the 400th post is mine. haha! But anyway, So, I'm inclined to disagree, at least somewhat. I still am not getting L. Ark's ressurection. I was always kind of under the impression that you played as D.Ark through the whole game. Maybe that's just me, but that seemed to be the implication. You could make an arguement that if L.Ark and D.ark were combining into one, then that is why he is special when compared to everyone else, why he exists outside the loop of fate, why he can change things. It returns back to the buddhist philosophy of the middle path (light and dark combining into one). As for fate, I think it was neph who said that Ark's adventures had to be fated, because it was unlikely that the events could've transpired without someone manipulating the strings. But wasn't this what elder was doing? Satan is usually depicted as being a pretty smart fellow, so it more than makes sense that he carefully planned things out, and figured that Ark would do the things he did. His only major miscaclulation may have been Ark's capacity to defeat him. If it hadn't been for that, his plan probably would've gone off without a hitch. I think at least part of why Ark exists outside the loop of fate (and this might be stated in the game, I don't really remember) is that Ark continually dies, but keeps struggling on. Which is starkly different from everyone else in the world. When other people die, they are reborn as something completely different, but Ark simply revives as...Ark. If he fails to do something, unlike the other animals which are forced into another role of nature, Ark continues and tries again until he suceeds. That's why he's a god, and that's why he exists outside the loopo of fate. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 9/5/2006 4:20:40 AM message detail		yay, the multitude returns. If he fails to do something, unlike the other animals which are forced into another role of nature, Ark continues and tries again until he suceeds. This reminds me of an episode of avatar where the leader of fire nation puts aang into shackles instead of killing him. This is because Aang would just resurrect again. The same goes to tn. There's a great chance that ark can just resurrect again after being killed. Everything resurrects. But I'm baffled by one incident. Recall the time when D.elle pays a visit and tries to kill baby ark. D. elle came to earth because it was the elder's, or to be specific, D.gaia's order. But if ark would just resurrect after getting killed, then there's no point of sending someone to kill him. Maybe Ark can't resurrect after the first, or maybe there's something else. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 9/5/2006 7:35:00 AM message detail		I''m not sure what you mean by "the firsT" but it might have worked simply because ark didn't have a mission y et. Perhaps part of the reason he keeps ressurecting is because he's striving to complete whatever goals he's set out for himself? I may have thought this out on a subconscious level, and been arguing for a different view of Ark's character for this. But I don't have any evidence except an inkling that that's mentioned somewhere. But don't hold me to it. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 9/5/2006 10:09:06 PM message detail		I hate you, Vespertilio! That coveted post should've been mine! I had the most right to it! I'm the most prolific poster still around! XD I claim the 500th post! ^_^ btw, I was thinking that there's some kind of conspiracy going on around here. Who brought Ark's body? Who brought baby ark to Elle? I think that whatever this moving entity is, a HUMAN is surely involved. And my proof is a seemingly irrelevant detail in the game. The dog whistle. Of course, only humans can only make dog whistles. And dogs, having sensitive hearing, can recognize one whistle from another. But what does that have to do with the human involvement? Take note that the wolves are tasked to protect the village, and the presence of the dog whistle suggests that they are led by someone. We don't have to worry about this guy being a dog trainer who just tasked the wolves to protect the village because as fuji said, L.elle himself said that they are reincarnations of villagers. But training the dog to respond to your whistle requires long experience and interaction with the trainer. Is the human by chance Light Ark?! denden dennn Because a being of comparable power to Dark Gaia, who is capable of creating an entire village in the uninhabitable wasteland that is the underworld, can't do something simple like create a dog whistle, LOL. And perhaps it was just left there by circumstance; the wolves were always there, and it's not unlikely that the citizens of Storkholm tamed them. All it would have taken was a nudge of fate for the whistle to end up in Ark's hands. But wasn't this what elder was doing? Satan is usually depicted as being a pretty smart fellow, so it more than makes sense that he carefully planned things out, and figured that Ark would do the things he did. His only major miscaclulation may have been Ark's capacity to defeat him. If it hadn't been for that, his plan probably would've gone off without a hitch. His involvement, though, seemed minimal at best; I don't D.G. exerting direct influence at any time past the initial journey upwards and before the rise of Beruga. Surely many things could have happened then, but Ark didn't stray from the path. The only being that constantly accompanied him was Yomi; by inference, that'd be D.G.'s influence, right? Yet, that makes for some very illogical moves on D.G.'s part. Dark Ark is half of the hero, and necessary for the resurrection. How easy would it have been for Yomi to kill Ark, caught unawares, any time between the release of Beruga and the resurrection of the hero? Certainly, Yomi was capable of it. So why didn't he? He was waiting for Elle. Yet this is illogical as well, since Dark Elle would certainly be clouded in her judgment by her emotions, and extremely likely to defect. If Dark Gaia crafted this plan, I can't make heads or tails out of his reasoning. Which is why I had proposed the theory of Yomi either being, or acting on the behalf of an entity or will above even the Gaias. Why didn't it kill Ark during that window of time in which it would have been more convenient? Because the crucial event, the pivot around which the fate of the world would be decided would never be reached. Why did it bide its time? Because its goal was to force Dark Gaia's hand - to force Dark Elle to come to the surface, her death leaving Ark free to make the decision without emotional attachments. See? It's not that implausible after all! XD Ah, I'm feeling dubious about the statement that Ark can resurrect after death by his will, or by any will aside from that of the deities. I don't recall any resurrection on his part taking place aside from the merging of Light and Dark, and that was most likely a result of divine intervention or extraordinary circumstance. Anyone want to cite the game as evidence? I don't have the time to play it at the moment. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 9/6/2006 1:03:55 AM message detail		and it's not unlikely that the citizens of Storkholm tamed them. But fuji said that L.elle said that the wolves are reincarnations of the villagers themselves after they died. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 9/6/2006 11:31:44 AM message detail		Well, I think Dark Gaia's plans make a whole lot more sense when you consider the options he has for his goals. Assuming Yomi is an agent for Dark Gaia, killing Ark off anytime in the game before Beruga surfaces, fits perfectly with Dark Gaia's plans. All the depictions of Satan that I've seen, show him to be a meticulous planner, and master manipulator. Sure, he doesn't really have any DIRECT influence on Ark, but he does sort of go "Hey, ark, do this." and since he's your kind and friendly elder, you go and do it/find your own way. I wont disagree that Yomi may be working in the shadows a lot more than he tells you, but it seems logical that he doesn't kill you through most of the game. Dark Gaia doesn't really have a way to affect the upper world, in anyway beyond what Ark does. Even at the end of the game, he still doesn't directly do anything to the world above at all. As for the statement about Ark's ability to ressurect. The most obvious citation would be, boot up the game, walk into a dungeon, and lose all of your HP. Getting eaten by ravenous wolves in the wild would kill a normal man, but not Ark. For some reason I feel like this is called attention to by the game, and THAT specific scene, I cannot recall at the moment. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 9/6/2006 9:19:25 PM message detail		But fuji said that L.elle said that the wolves are reincarnations of the villagers themselves after they died. Ah, my bad. It's been a while. However, wolves do live in forests; it's not implausible that the townspeople designed such a thing - it's not as though it was implied to be anything out of the ordinary. Also, if L.G. endowed them with the Hero Pike and Armor, it shouldn't be beyond its power to give them a simple dog whistle. Sure, he doesn't really have any DIRECT influence on Ark, but he does sort of go "Hey, ark, do this." and since he's your kind and friendly elder, you go and do it/find your own way. When? Past the initial stage in the underworld, Ark is not advised by the Elder; rather, he is nudged here and there by the various entities crying to be resurrected. It was Dark Gaia's objective to resurrect the world, and that was Ark's only instruction, but that is pretty vague; many things could be interpreted from that. If D.G. had planned everything, you'd think he'd give Ark better instruction. In fact, after the resurrection of humanity, Ark spends the better part of his time at the beck and call of Kumari, the Elder's light counterpart. I wont disagree that Yomi may be working in the shadows a lot more than he tells you, but it seems logical that he doesn't kill you through most of the game. Dark Gaia doesn't really have a way to affect the upper world, in anyway beyond what Ark does Still doesn't explain why Yomi didn't kill Ark in that perfect window of opportunity that it had before the true hero was formed, or even as a baby. Why wait for Elle, when Yomi was perfectly capable of overwhelming Ark far earlier, and with the element of surprise? He would probably have succeeded, too, since the game heavily implies that the attack Yomi mounted would have killed Ark, if not for Dark Elle's sacrifice. Beruga had already been resurrected; there was no further purpose for Ark in D.G. plans. :S As for the statement about Ark's ability to ressurect. The most obvious citation would be, boot up the game, walk into a dungeon, and lose all of your HP. Two word answer: game mechanics. If losing was permanent, as in that the player could not continue from the point at which Ark "died", we'd have a mass of infuriated players. Game mechanics are generally discounted when speaking of plot and whatnot in the discussions of any game, in my experience. For some reason I feel like this is called attention to by the game, and THAT specific scene, I cannot recall at the moment. Please do, since my recollection of that scene is that Ark, sans whistle, backed away from the wolves; as their purpose was to guard the village, they did not pursue him. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 9/7/2006 4:11:43 AM message detail		If losing was permanent, as in that the player could not continue from the point at which Ark "died", we'd have a mass of infuriated players. lol on that. The game mechanics, instead of killing ark permanently, did something else. I'm not sure about chapter 2, but if you die in chapter 3, you wake up in an inn where you last slept. It's probably making the illusion that everything you did after you slept at that inn is disregarded. And it seemed that the real story continues when you wake up at the inn. Do you guys catch my drift? It's hard to explain. Getting eaten by ravenous wolves in the wild would kill a normal man, but not Ark. Actually the wolves don't eat you, they just attack you. Do remember that Meilin is with you. if meilin can survive that attack, then the wolves purpose were merely fending off tresspassers, not kill them. Oh. And btw, i've further proof that the resurrection of the hero is part of d.gaia's plan. There's a point in the game where you sleep, and the elder tells you clues of the starstones' location. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
vdt_colonel Posted 9/7/2006 9:33:00 AM message detail		"Also, if L.G. endowed them with the Hero Pike and Armor, it shouldn't be beyond its power to give them a simple dog whistle." Didn't Columbus find the Hero Pike and Armor in the new world? "When? Past the initial stage in the underworld, Ark is not advised by the Elder; rather, he is nudged here and there by the various entities crying to be resurrected" The elder appears to Ark in a dream (if I'm not mistaken after the whole- Elle regains her voice, kills king...etc) telling Ark about the people in the world called geniuses and that he needs to help them. He probably figured Ark would eventually resurrect the 'real' genius Beruga going along this route. Doesn't Kumari resurrect Ark after he gets killed by Beruga's machines? Sorry but could someone tell me what is at the point of this discussion? I pop in here every once in awhile to see if I can get in on this but every time it seems you guys are mid discussion and I can't seem to figure it out where it began at. You guys seem to be discussing Ark's actual purpose to DG. After you defeat DG the voice of Ark's original on the lightside tells him he was created by copying Light Ark and was going to be used to rule the world in DG's stead. Perhaps at some point DG scrapped that idea and wanted Ark to find the starstones so Ark could merge with Light Ark and then kill him along with Light Ark because Dark Ark was no longer suitable for a puppet tyrant? Two birds with one stone? Yomi says something similar when Ark is awoken. He said that the elder told him to kill Ark when Beruga was resurrected but he bided his time because he thought Ark would find the hero and he was right so once he killed ark nothing would stop DG from having the earth reborn.
nepheliad Posted 9/7/2006 1:08:29 PM message detail		New people? OMG! ^_^ It's been too long since I've played the game. "Also, if L.G. endowed them with the Hero Pike and Armor, it shouldn't be beyond its power to give them a simple dog whistle." Didn't Columbus find the Hero Pike and Armor in the new world? Yep, my bad. Yet, the point still stands; if L.G. could create those things, why not a simple dog whistle? The elder appears to Ark in a dream (if I'm not mistaken after the whole- Elle regains her voice, kills king...etc) telling Ark about the people in the world called geniuses and that he needs to help them. He probably figured Ark would eventually resurrect the 'real' genius Beruga going along this route. And now I recall this scene. Still seems extremely vague, but I concede; along with Ark's wanderings and the reverence for Beruga at Mosque, it is enough of a clue. Doesn't Kumari resurrect Ark after he gets killed by Beruga's machines? Yes, but the point is that Ark isn't able to spontaneously resurrect; the resurrection requires outside stimulus and power. You guys seem to be discussing Ark's actual purpose to DG. After you defeat DG the voice of Ark's original on the lightside tells him he was created by copying Light Ark and was going to be used to rule the world in DG's stead. Perhaps at some point DG scrapped that idea and wanted Ark to find the starstones so Ark could merge with Light Ark and then kill him along with Light Ark because Dark Ark was no longer suitable for a puppet tyrant? Two birds with one stone? Yomi says something similar when Ark is awoken. He said that the elder told him to kill Ark when Beruga was resurrected but he bided his time because he thought Ark would find the hero and he was right so once he killed ark nothing would stop DG from having the earth reborn. But, Light Ark is a non-corporeal being, and the game implies that both halves are necessary to defeat Dark Gaia. Regardless of motive, D.G.'s planned execution did not require that long a time to execute (man, I love English...). D.G. had already accepted that Dark Ark would not make for a good puppet in not aiding Ark after Beruga's attack; why not immediately have Yomi attack Ark? It doesn't seem as though it would be due to Kumari's abilities; the sage was, after all, able to awaken Ark during the events at Storkholm. As for Yomi, he is the master deceiver, more so that D.G. him/itself. Don't worry - I know my theory is far more far-fetched than yours, and that yours is the one the developers probably had in mind. I merely like to see how far I can get before I encounter a hole I cannot patch or jump over. XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 9/7/2006 1:09:49 PM message detail		Well, Colonel seemed to cover most of the counter arguements I was going to make. So I'll just go to the game mechanics thing. I normally would not bring up Game Mechanics, and I suppose that until I can justify it with a scene where it's brought up, we should probably just disregard it. But it is different from other RPGs, say Final Fantasy, where when you die, the game ends. Whereas in TN, when you die, you are resurrected at your last save point, and everything you've done up to that point (leveling, items gained, magic used) stays in effect from the instant you died. It may just be a design choice, but it might fit into the big picture. We can only guess. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 9/7/2006 6:49:38 PM message detail		What, Vespertilio, no comments on my counter-counter-arguments? Are they really that unfounded as to deserve no response? XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
vdt_colonel Posted 9/7/2006 8:39:39 PM message detail		"Don't worry - I know my theory is far more far-fetched than yours, and that yours is the one the developers probably had in mind. I merely like to see how far I can get before I encounter a hole I cannot patch or jump over. XD" Ah, you're one of those people huh? I'll keep that in mind. It is quite fun to argue the far-fetched side especially if you know what the hole in your argument is but you hope no one else figures it out. "Well, Colonel seemed to cover most of the counter arguements I was going to make. So I'll just go to the game mechanics thing. " Sorry, didn't mean to butt in there. But I gotta add one more thing since I went to the trouble of looking up corporeal in the dictionary since I wasn't 100% sure on the meaning (you guys and your big vocabularies). "But, Light Ark is a non-corporeal being, and the game implies that both halves are necessary to defeat Dark Gaia. Regardless of motive, D.G.'s planned execution did not require that long a time to execute (man, I love English...). D.G. had already accepted that Dark Ark would not make for a good puppet in not aiding Ark after Beruga's attack; why not immediately have Yomi attack Ark? It doesn't seem as though it would be due to Kumari's abilities; the sage was, after all, able to awaken Ark during the events at Storkholm." When I viewed the scene at the hero's grave again looking for some kind of answer and only got: "you were in danger countless times and no matter how hurt you were you never died. Why? Because you're the legendary hero" Blah. That's not what I'm looking for. So... I've been thinking that there has to be more to Light Ark than meets the eye. Consider this: his resting place, the requirements for activating him, and I think I had one more but I forgot. Resting place: Antarctica is one strange place for the hero's grave and is also a strange place for a desert. But the Grave is in the desert on Antarctica. Somthing smells fishy. Starstones- Where did these come from? That's all Could all of this have been set up by Light Ark? How did he die in the first place? And why would he be buried in Antarctica and how did it become desert? He couldn't have died in the apocalypse that ruined the world if he did he would have resurrected with everything else. What if he gave himself up? Gave up his physical body for an immortal spirit to be awakened when the time was right. Perhaps during Dark Gaia's first attempt at his plans Light Ark realized he couldn't do anything without the other half so he sealed himself away and scattered the starstones so that D. Ark could find them and waited for his arrival. If that is so could Light Ark have anything to do with Ark's resistance to a permanent death? If Light Ark was removed Dark Ark could be removed as well. But Light Ark is "non-corpereal"(neat word) and can't be harmed so let them merge then kill them. And the only way for them to merge is to have Dark Ark find the Starstones. Whew. THAT's far-fetched. But I'll post it anyway and maybe it will spark some other more sensical ideas. On a quick side note did you guys know you could rearrange the status bars (HP, item, money) by pausing then pressing R? I just read that on wikipedia.
Snow_rock Posted 9/7/2006 11:52:00 PM message detail		The tn board is a farfetched place, and so am I. Perhaps during Dark Gaia's first attempt at his plans Light Ark realized he couldn't do anything without the other half so he sealed himself away and scattered the starstones so that D. Ark could find them and waited for his arrival. If that is so could Light Ark have anything to do with Ark's resistance to a permanent death? If Light Ark was removed Dark Ark could be removed as well. But Light Ark is "non-corpereal"(neat word) and can't be harmed so let them merge then kill them. And the only way for them to merge is to have Dark Ark find the Starstones. lol That was nearly the same opinion I gave days ago. But about L.Ark who couldn't do anything w/o the other half, that got me thinking.I have questions, but no answers. If D.gaia's motive was merely to conquer the world, why does she have to kill D.ark? If we look at the plotline, Ark does everything that the elder says. The latter can just talk to Ark in a dream and tell him to go home. Elder can just bring Ark over to the underworld and conquer Earth on herself. Ark was simply NO threat at all. So what's with wasting time trying to kill light and dark ark? light ark can't do anything by himself. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 9/8/2006 10:04:40 AM message detail		To be honest neph, somehow I missed your post when I posted O_o... Anyway, colonel has come to my aid again, that's the very line I've been referencing when I brought up the game mechanics of ark's not dying the "you were in danger countless times and no matter how hurt you were you never died. Why? Because you're the legendary hero", though I could be using it in the wrong context, I remembe thinking that was refering to the fact that ark never really dies. To be honest neph, I'm having a hard time figuring out your arugement. It seems like you're asking why Yomi didn't attack, and simultaneously answering your own question with "Yomi is a lot trickier than we may be giving him credit for." But I was thinking about Yomi today, and I remembered something. I read an article once (which was actually about fighting games, great article at www.sirlin.net) that talked about Yomi, which, according to the article, is the japanese word for "knowing the mind of your opponent". It also has a previously stated double meaning for demonic gatekeepers and such. I think the implications of what his name menas, are pretty obvious, so assuming that Yomi is either working for, or just is, a higher power above DG and LG, then perhaps he, knowing exactly what EVERYONE is doing, can actively predict the course of events, and is manipulating behind the scenes on a level we haven't even comprehended yet. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Timberwulf Posted 9/9/2006 10:50:36 PM message detail		Ark can never die. Do you know how I know? Because none of the Heroes can die, and more importantly beyond my deranged continuuity rants, all three games go to the trouble of pointing it out. Only FFLII (a SaGa game) does this outside of the trilogy, to my knowledge. Specifically, whenever you die you face the New God calling himself Odin, who offers to ressurrect you if you promise to duel him when you are strong enough. When you finally reach Odin (he's the third-last boss), he will remind you of your promise (or just attack if you never died, second playthrough heh heh) and, after you kill him, he will never ressurrect you again and the game will simply return to the title screen! But I'm wandering off topic. Ark, as noted, has it pointed out to him that even though he's taken inhuman blows, he never dies. In a way, this is saying that the hero never dies, which is slightly different than the others, but it's only a minor revision. Illusion of Gaia makes a point of explaining the dark spheres "your enemy left" as being a way to avoid death, as they will bring you back (quote added because I hate that line, I always think it's referring to a bizarre direction known as "enemy left"). And, of course, my favourite: Deathtol: The poor creature that repeats transmigration of the soul and can never die. I will put you in a deep sleep. [...] Some people believe being constantly reincarnated means everlasting suffering. Being alive is suffering for some creatures. You will find out what I mean. Ah, Deathtol. You get two lines and I love ya for 'em.
nepheliad Posted 9/11/2006 6:07:22 PM message detail		OMG, Timberwulf! O_O Sorry - just didn't expect to see you (him) back. O_O All right, then, putting the silliness aside, we may be speaking of different things. When does Ark sustain a blow that would prove fatal to a human being, taking into account game mechanics? Dragoon Castle, perhaps, but Meilin also made it out, and humans can survive the collapse of large structures. The only other time that comes to mind is after the reanimation of Beruga; there, he came close to death, only to be resurrected by Kumari. What's my point? I don't think that he is invincible. It required a force outside himself to resurrect him; my theory is that he managed to do what was necessary - to set up the proper circumstances in the game for the world, including the "resurrection" of Beruga. Had that not happened - had he died prior to this, the world would have stagnated and eventually fallen; Ark would be resurrected then to again attempt at fulfilling his role. Basically, invincible? No. Immortal and resurrection after a failed world? Yes. @ Vespertilio - That particular line is open to interpretation (boy, broken record, no? ^^;). I chose to interpret it as that Ark fulfills the role of legendary hero because he did not quail (read: die) in the face of adversity, but I know what you mean. He would hardly be a legendary hero if he died before accomplishing what was required of him. It seems like you're asking why Yomi didn't attack, and simultaneously answering your own question with "Yomi is a lot trickier than we may be giving him credit for. Yep. Note that I give credit to Yomi, not Dark Gaia; I was aiming to support my theory of Yomi being above it all, in well-nigh, if not full control of proceedings. I think the implications of what his name menas, are pretty obvious, so assuming that Yomi is either working for, or just is, a higher power above DG and LG, then perhaps he, knowing exactly what EVERYONE is doing, can actively predict the course of events, and is manipulating behind the scenes on a level we haven't even comprehended yet. This is what I was trying to get across, and is the theory I espouse (have been saying as much from a few pages back...but no one seemed to take notice -_-;); thanks for providing further support of it, since I'm too preoccupied these days to seek it myself! ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 9/11/2006 7:15:08 PM message detail		I can't really think of anything, ignoring game mechanics, that really helps to show Ark's immortality. But, I would propose that the game mechanics would be set as such, to show Ark's immortality. It wouldn't be the first time (though a very early example) of game designers using elements of the engine to express something about their characters. I mean, things like ark's incredible durability for falls from heights, which no other character (admittably gets a chance to) exhibit, save for maybe Leim. And as Timberwulf said, they make (perhaps veiled) reference to the immortality of the main character in each soul blazer game, and in each game (well, I don't really know for illusion of gaia) it minorly serves as a plot point. But yeah, I think I acknowledged your yomi arguement long ago <_<, and even supported it with references to buddhism, but whatever. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 9/11/2006 7:33:23 PM message detail		Oops! Indeed, you did acknowledge it. I guess that since you mentioned not understanding what I meant, I took it to mean the wrong thing, and forgot that. Sorry! I've posted so much on this thread, I can no longer keep track of exactly where and what I posted, along with what responses the posts garnered...XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 9/11/2006 7:40:16 PM message detail		[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
nepheliad Posted 9/11/2006 8:21:39 PM message detail		But, I would propose that the game mechanics would be set as such, to show Ark's immortality. It wouldn't be the first time (though a very early example) of game designers using elements of the engine to express something about their characters. I mean, things like ark's incredible durability for falls from heights, which no other character (admittably gets a chance to) exhibit, save for maybe Leim. "Ark's senses faded away..." Sounds like a generic euphemism for death to me. What games don't feature something akin to this as their game over prompt? :S As for falls, "gets a chance to" is a pretty big factor. Aside from Mario RPG, there are few other games (as in, I can't think of one) of the era which even allow jumping, and Mario has had equally death-defying falls...XD The same holds true for many next-gen games featuring jumping in the same fashion. It wouldn't be much fun having to trek down the same tedious way that you climbed up. Also, maybe they were too lazy to program a way to rappel down cliffs and whatnot, but the descent generally takes less time and effort in comparison to the ascent (of anything). --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 9/11/2006 8:30:56 PM message detail		It's entirely possible, like in FFLII (though I'm not going to pretend this occured to me earlier, it didn't), that the game's designers expect you to have died before that point, come back to life, and charged back in. Really, the fight with Odin if you've never died seems really out of place, what with him just charging into the fight and all, since the New Gods in FFLII normally get more lines than your characters rolls eyes. It's also possible that the voice is referring to your (normally, in other games, unjustified) abilility to take so many hits. The entire line might be a way of saying "You're the Hero because you have more than 5 HP, dammit!" (It's a pet-gag theory of mine, since before Warcraft III, that only the heros can gain levels, since otherwise the Evil Overlord would be sending his troops out to, excuse my <strike>French</strike> WCIII, Creep the world map). :P
vdt_colonel Posted 9/11/2006 8:43:13 PM message detail		What is FFLII short for? I can't seem to figure it and I keep seeing it. I don't think I've ever played it. It is any good? Just something I though of (it may not have much weight but)... Ark's invulnerability to severe harm can be a gameplay issue similar to Dante's in DMC. Now I've never played the game but from what I hear he can take severe amounts of punishment during FMV's like having multiple scythes and swords sticking out of him along with other wounds but he seems unfazed. But in the game he can take just as much or even less punishment and dies. The point being this: If the character was as powerful gameplay wise as he is story wise the gameplay wouldn't really be all that incredibly fun would it?
Vespertilio Posted 9/12/2006 12:58:12 PM message detail		Whaat? jumping was huge on the SNES, it was the age when platformers still made total sense, since everything was 2-d. "Ark's sense faded away..." can mean death, but unlike in games like Secret of Mana (see: "X was never heard of again"), or friggin' FF where the game just kind of ends, ark wakes up at the last inn, fully healed. It's a feature that should be more prominent in gaming, but whatever. As for programming, well, I knokw in the legend of zelda(ocarina of time) they wouldn't let you just jump where the hell you wanted, it wouldn't kill you, but you'd feel it, especially in your gut. And it's not a matter of laziness, cause you can climb down most any ladder, it's just 40 times faster to jump. In response to colonel, FFLII I believe is Final Fantasy Legend 2, for the gameboy. I thought it was alright, apparently timberwulf played the hell out of it. And yeah, dante is totally invinsible in the FMVs. But you can technically explain it as "He's just pretending like he's not hurt cause he's a badass". I think my favorite seen in DMC is the one where he gets impaled on the ground with a sword, and rather than pull it out like a logical person, he physically pushes his body through the sword, and then pulls it out of the ground. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Hasukawa Kazuyaa Posted 9/12/2006 6:33:03 PM message detail		Visit the Final Fantasy Legend 2 (or SaGa 2) boards here. A few good topics slipped away, but that's a place filled with people who've played it to death. ~Kaz --- *Fighter:* "Mr Pibb", "Dr Pepper".. I'm onto you.. Kaz Fact: Welcome to Version 2.0!
vdt_colonel Posted 9/12/2006 10:29:59 PM message detail		Hmm... I've played FFL1 and 3. Played 1 and hated the lack of space in your inventory. Holy crap to I HATE severely limited inventories. I wish they would die. I never finished that game. I beat FFL3 and thought it wasn't too bad. Haven't gotten around to playing FFL2 though. I thought I had played it before so that's why I was wondering what it stood for then I checked it out and found that I indeed had not played it. Maybe I'll give it a go after Legend of Mana and Civ4(once I get my computer).
Vespertilio Posted 9/13/2006 11:11:18 AM message detail		Although we're totally digressing from the topic at hand, FFL2 is kind of the medium of the series, it's definitly an enhancement on the first one, but the third one is the one that's really worth the bread, in my opinion. Maybe I just don't like how easy it is to screw yourself in the first two, if you mess up the party selection, you'll have a rough game. Whereas the third one felt like it had a lot of really solid RPG elements and design, and a good storyline. Though the story of the second one was pretty cool, I liked it. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 9/13/2006 5:53:11 PM message detail		@ Vespertilio - So they dodged being wholly reliant on save-points. Seems more like a gameplay mechanics choice than a plot one - perhaps they realized that the save points system really sucks - personal opinion, but hey. I'm too tired to compose a more coherent response. XD As for jumping, again, perhaps he's just like Mario; characters in the game even mention that he is a good jumper. Also, it may have something to do with the capabilities of the SNES in comparison to the N64, since Mario RPG had Mario jump down the tall "ladders" which would otherwise have been tedious to climb down. I haven't played the FFL series yet...XP --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
nepheliad Posted 9/13/2006 5:56:22 PM message detail		...Just wanted to express belated shock that we are discussing the purpose in terms of plot of the game's game over procedure... O_O --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Snow_rock Posted 9/14/2006 1:38:59 AM message detail		ye. why does the game lead you to an inn, instead of a game over screen? I have a wierd opinion for this. Game over screens are used when a character dies, which kinda represents a probable "end" of the game. The game goes blank except for two solemn, illuminated letters, "Game over". However, ark doesn't die. there's no Game Over for him. Like, it's subliminally telling us: "There's no escaping your fate, not even death" And yes, the only time you can finally "rest", or will ever reach a blank screen, is "the end" when ark finally finishes his "fate". And it's not by death. Rather, by disappearance. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 9/14/2006 9:39:00 AM message detail		Well snow, you've pretty much hit on the point I'm trying to make here ;). And what's so shocking about game mechanics being used to express parts of the plot? I've seen it more nad more recently (killer7 and Shadow of the Colossus are two I can think of off hand), and I think it's a really effective way of expressing the story. I mean, it's one thing to take the plot in by watching it, or hearing it, or whatever, but it's a completely different thing when you're controlling the hero of the story directly, and things happen to you. I can only see this as being more proof that TN is an artful masterpiece >_>.. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Timberwulf Posted 9/14/2006 11:01:20 PM message detail		@vdt_colonel: I own all three FFL games, and I've only ever beat III, which is a shame because I love them all. Vespertillo has the mechanics well-categorised. For detail: the limitied inventories are back, but there's a lot more customisation involved, too. The plot's not bad either... given the age and the fact it's a pre-"Link's Awakening" GB game. We've got like 70 posts left on this thread!! panics Hey, while we're talking about gameplay, why isn't the Rocspear a mystic weapon? They had to forcibly code it so you couldn't throw it out and, you know, lose your entire game. I just think it's weird. Hmm... I'm afraid I'm not sure what we're talking about... and that that's my fault. Ermm... mermaids, anyone?
vdt_colonel Posted 9/15/2006 6:43:39 PM message detail		Hey Vespertilio I checked out your site. Not bad. I laughed at your Tidus smiling comment. I'm curious. How long have you all been frequenting this board? Several of you seem to know each other real well so you have had to have been here for awhile. On another note are there any sidequests that I maybe haven't heard about? Extra dungeons, cool weapons, etc?
nepheliad Posted 9/16/2006 7:28:47 PM message detail		In response to the game over thing: Light bulb finally switched on. I see what you guys meant, and like Vespertilio, it again made me only all the more in awe of the games often subtly presented plot. I'm irked that I didn't see it sooner, but better late than never. To address a relevant issue before a somewhat lengthy...thing, I thought it was you, Timberwulf, who informed us that the Rocspear was most likely coded to be forcibly kept due to its ability to shatter rocks, as briefly as that was needed; one would be irreversibly screwed over if one tossed it out before breaking all the rocks that were necessary (bar the obvious restart, of course - but could still be a hassle if one doesn't save frequently). :S Here comes a long post wholly unrelated to the plot! I'll more than understand if you skip it, though I'd like to know what you all feel about this. I love this thread to death, and I am more than a bit dismayed that there are only 67 posts left! Perhaps a bit pathetic, but it has been one of the enjoyable constants in my otherwise somewhat hectic life this past year (my god, a year!), and I've grown rather attached to it. Why did you have to bring that up, Timberwulf? T_T My god, it's been a full year! I ought to have posted yesterday, the anniversary of my first post - 9/15/05. I don't think I've been away from this thread for a interval longer than a week since the beginning, which, I think, accounts for and justifies my attachment to it. I guess it is somewhat inane, if not outrightly pathetic to be so devoted to something like this, and I hope that you all don't have a horrible impression of me because of this. XD In case I forget to, or can't get it in before the 500 cutoff, I'd just like to express the awe with which I regard the posters on this thread. It has been one of the finest, most enlightening discourses I've ever been involved in or audience to, in many ways, and quite fun. I've been on other boards with discussions of this nature, and less than a handful had such a wonderful, genial atmosphere, not to mention the insight to be had. I doubt many who peruse this thread would disagree if I say that this is the pinnacle of discussion when it comes to these things. As for Terranigma itself, I'll leave that to further down the posting lane; as such, I'll probably post such a thing again, too, concerning the thread, but I'm caught up with sentimentality at the moment. vdt_colonel, in this terms of this thread alone, we've gotten to be acquaintances in our common enthusiasm to the plot. Of the people who've posted recently and have posted for a considerable length of time: Kaz first posted on 1/11/2005, the third post (though the second person) in the thread; Snow_rock first posted on 4/16/05 - the 33rd post in the thread; Timberwulf first posted on 5/13/05 - the 59th post in thread; and Vespertilio, on 7/12/06, the 338th post in this thread. Others that I personally feel on the same level towards (who have departed, doubtlessly to live more constructive lives) are Rue, Durran of Mirror, Deus_Mortem (who we owe for starting this thread, though his intent was not of plot discussion, but merely paying homage), kain50bc, slivre...the list goes on, and certainly every poster has contributed something. While the nature of this thread doesn't allow for the sense of knowing other posters as the rather random, tangential, and off topic threads do (heaven knows how much random banter has been exchanged between yours truly, Magus of the Shadows, and Tr4p_root, after they goaded me into it - me, a stickler for topic relevance! - I lament that the bulk of my posting these days on on their threads...XD, j/k), one gets a different sense of fellowship from these extended canvasses - dare I say it? - a feeling of camaraderie, if a little detached.
nepheliad Posted 9/16/2006 7:29:09 PM message detail		(cont.) I can't proclaim seniority - curse you, Timberwulf and Snow_rock, for returning after your respective prolonged absences! XD - but I think I can claim the title of most prolific, owing to the volume of posts I managed to crank out, worthy or not. ^_^ Thanks a lot, Timberwulf for inciting this mushiness in and from me. XP In any case, far be it from me to speak for others - these are just my own thoughts on this thread and its posters. Think of it as a homage to it; yes, I daresay that this thread itself deserves a homage. ...I hope my speeches are this well thought out; it took quite a while (and a lot of passion) to compose this. XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
kain50bc Posted 9/17/2006 7:28:14 AM message detail		aww thanks blushes i've just been caught up with work and other forums. I don't think i contributed that much other than a few questions about things that didn't make sense (and hell this game contains quite a bit) but thanks for the mention and thanks to everyone who's contributed to this topic. Terranigma's definitely a legendary game in terms of storyline if its still being talked about a decade after its prime year --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
Vespertilio Posted 9/17/2006 9:30:48 PM message detail		But now that you get what we're saying, what will we discuss :(. Do these topics get backed up? Cause if not, someone should really back this up and keep it archived somewhere on the internet, perhaps even as a condensced essay generally covering the plot (and now that we've pointed it out, the gameplay), as a condenced idea. Like spark notes, but legitimate. Thanks for the compliment Colonel! I should really update that site again, and clean up the older articles, I haven't updated really in like a year, and most of the articles beyond the 4 most recent have really really bad grammar mistakes. Was there something else I was gonna say? I don't remember. Oh yeah! I was gonna agree that this is in fact, a wonderful discussion I'm glad I could be a part of from somewhere beyond the middle to the end, it forced me to realise a few nuances of the game that I hadn't before. Maybe I should read all the posts before the one I made >_>.. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Snow_rock Posted 9/18/2006 2:28:03 AM message detail		This thread has granted me much satisfaction because of the indepth discussion. It changed much of my perspective of the game. thank you all for the enlightening experience, especially Vespertilio who always counters my arguements:D "Someday, all we can do is reminisce." We can't expect a tn part2 anymore, given the gradual decomposition of quality in movies and games. The most we can do is to share this great memory to the next generations. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Stealthjelly Posted 9/19/2006 9:11:05 AM message detail		I used to just play this game and have a kind of "Oh that's nice. What's next?" mentality. Man, have I changed. BTW Snow_rock, "given the gradual decomposition of quality in movies and games", I couldn't agree more. As the famous phrase has it, "They don't make 'em like that anymore". --- "Aquarius: There's travel in your future when your tongue freezes to the back of a speeding bus" -Weird Al
Da_Ananaz Posted 9/19/2006 1:26:30 PM message detail		Greetings, Wonderful people, I've played this game when I was around 10. My English wasn't good enough to understand everything, and I didn't see the symbols. However, I was already sure that this would be the best game I'd ever play. So far, this is still the case. I just replayed it, and realized that it contained many layers of meaning, like the constant recurring aspect that all the progress brought by civilization isn't all that great. After completing the game again, I felt even more lonely than the first time, since I hardly know people who recognise the significance of TN, or even recognise the name for that matter. I hoped to find something on the internet about it; the symbols, the themes, maybe a discussion. I found you guys =] The first thing you notice, when reading all the posts (took me about two evenings) is of course the devotion by nepheliad. Furthermore, the extremely strong debates, the excellent quotes (Forgot to write down the pages on which the great ones stood, I'll try to look them up later), the endless speculation on what the end might mean. I love it. But most of all, I feel great, knowing that I'm not the only one who loves this game so much, who recognises it as a part of "literature" or "art" and that I'm not the only one who got emotional, especially at the end. For that matter, when reading all of your speculations on it, I'd like to believe it was L.ark, who returned to the surface world and visited Elle, to spare her from loneliness, like D.ark is also spared from now (although in a bittersweet way, when he's back home, and realizes he's alone now, his suffering will only last 1 more day. While reading through the whole topic, I encountered many questions, which were all answered, some immedeatly, some by chance in a later discussion. The only thing that bugs me is the following. After the encounter with princess Elle, and the mirage, created by Meilin, Ark has this dream of the Elder. He tells him that he has to go south, to ressurrect/rescue a genius. Although I've heard a few pages ago that this should refer to Beruga, in this particular scene, I always thought that he referred to Columbus, who in fact, was a genius, and lived in the south. But, Columbus was imprisoned by Queen Mary, the same person who was at the side of the bad guys, including Beruga. Why would the Elder want Ark to rescue 'an enemy' since he hid the treasure, which king Henry was after, who is also part of the evil team? This is my first post on this forum, so I'm just a newbie on the matter ;)
Vespertilio Posted 9/19/2006 2:04:37 PM message detail		I would suppose at the very least, that the reason he needed columbus saved was so that civilization could progress beyond the medival era, and thusly, beruga could show up and carry out elder's evil plans. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
nepheliad Posted 9/19/2006 4:46:38 PM message detail		OMG, kain50bc?! Long time, no see! ^_^ And don't speak that way of yourself - for some time, you were the only person aside from Timberwulf and myself on this thread; I recall quite a few contributions. Questions that prompt discussions are always greatly appreciated. Vespertilio, we'll have plenty to discuss as soon as my workload lessens. ^_^ Also, agreed on your response to the question about the genius. Da_Ananaz, my devotion shows, eh? Thank you! Recall my little declaration earlier? I do still plan to condense the contents of this thread into an essay or other form of critical analysis for preservation. If I ever have the time, I'll compose a plot analysis encompassing the whole trilogy/series. I'll also archive this thread - there's no way I'll let it be lost to the world. XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 9/19/2006 5:28:16 PM message detail		But the plots aren't SO connected are they? >_>? It seemed like they were connected more in concept and with references to each other, more than anything. Though I have heard the theory that Soulblazer is the creation of the world, IoG is an adventure that takes place on it, and TN is like the world getting re-ressurected or something... --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Timberwulf Posted 9/19/2006 7:39:47 PM message detail		@vdt_colonel: When I first discovered Terranigma, I found that everything you see here in GameFAQs is, to the credit of the FAQ writers, everything there seems to be. It was nice to see it in pictures at TerraEarth, of course, but TE's Terranigma page hasn't been moved over with the other two since the restructuring. So no, I don't think there are any side quests, unless you consider the Chicken Races and, erm... the little girl with the nomads, I guess. @nepheliad: I brought it up so we could get to the important business of archiving the thread. If you compare the thread to an essay, we are now at the unfortunately boring technical parts. It's time to consider how to put it up somewhere, and maybe wrap some things up. Not to say we can't start a new one, but the thread won't last long after it hits 500. @Da_Ananaz: Yeah, I think Columbus connecting east to west was Dark Gaia's aim in this. The European royalty has failed, and with Ark's help were quickly dispatched. It was time for Dark Gaia to turn the enemy's card into her own. @Vespertilio: Actually, I have a minor essay on my computer right now about my (as usual, overthought) theories regarding the trilogies connections, but it's only a first draft. I'll get back to it soon. Essentially, the thesis is that given the games' emphasis on resurrection, the games' common characters are, in fact, the same soul returning to fight the good fight. The games, in this sense, represent three sagas in a neverending series of battles between good and evil and the adventures of their mediator, The Hero. It's really not as impressive as I may be making it out to be. XD
nepheliad Posted 9/19/2006 9:16:13 PM message detail		Agreed, Timberwulf - want to collaborate on such an effort, or do you wish to undertake it yourself? Or simply saying that it ought to be done? I'm not sure we are yet fully spent on analysis - simply that now, it does not concern plot as much as it does symbolism, allusions, characterization, etc. What I propose is to launch a thread in which the theories are presented, and see if anyone has new additions, or is willing to contest some, since our collective back and forth banter/discussion might have shrouded the theories - basically, make it more clear-cut. Then, after being given reasonable time for further discussion and contention, compile the worthy into an essay/FAQ/explanation/theory thread, preceded by a warning of the conjecture lying ahead, separated into the following topics: continuity, plot, sub-plot, characters, allusions, symbolism, themes and motifs, ending (both in terms of story and the game itself - why a remake/port is unlikely, etc), and atmosphere, not necessarily in that order, of course, and followed with a suitable conclusion, and a list of people who contributed their thoughts. Then, attempt to get it stickied. How's that sound? It'd be a long, possibly arduous affair, but it'd be worth it, IMO. It's also that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of one person singlehandedly doing this; not that I doubt our ability to set bias aside, but the theories are best reasoned by the people who propose or have some conviction in them... Which, BTW, was why I refused to explain the possibility of a continuity to someone who had asked earlier. Wish you were around then, and said as much in that thread. I'll get around to reading your thread this week, so be prepared for possible debate; you must know by now that I won't let things lie. ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 9/20/2006 12:43:36 AM message detail		I've posted my early draft of my theories on the board already so we can talk about them as we see fit, come up with somethign satisfactory in the end, I should hope!! Please, everyone feel free to use it to post their own theories, and we can get to work!
AlkaSetzer Posted 9/28/2006 2:46:21 AM message detail		The "Yomi being in charge of everything" idea is interesting. It seems more aesthetically pleasing than mine, which was simply that the ending got written before the Ch. 4 intro, and that the guy who wrote the Ch. 4 retconned Yomi's betrayal in there, figuring that as long as he put a new Yomi in there to replace the one we had, it would fit into the plot, and that he simply forgot about those few lines in the ending that would get messed up. Still, though, you've got to wonder, considering that when you think about it, there's no reason that Dark Elle has to die for the plot to go on the way it's supposed to. Someone mentioned earlier that the desire to avenge her would drive the player to go back to Crysta, but it had the opposite effect on me. After beating Beruga, I went to Storkolm, got confused when nothing happened, and ended up having to read an FAQ in order to figure out what to do. My guess was that the original Ch. 4 intro may have just been a generic "you get the hero armor, now go fight the big bad villain!" sort of thing. While the Ch. 4 intro is definitely better than that would have been, I still have sort of mixed feelings about it - killing off Dark Elle seemed like such a clichéd way to give the main character some angst, and the game sort of lost my interest from that point until I got to the ending, which made me interested again. I can see why they did it, though - if D. Elle had been alive at the end, she would have had to have been one of those possessed villagers at the end who turn into the disembodied souls and attack you when you come back to Crysta, and that may have been too dark. Still, though, the Ch. 4 intro seems to cause a lot of problems in the plot - for example, at the beginning the Elder tells us that the box is from "the world opposite ours", meaning that the Yomi in that box should have had light affiliation. At the end, Yomi says "I'll be back when someone strays from the flock like you", which is obviously a reference to your messing with the box you weren't supposed to open at the beginning. The other thing is that there's something in that box at the beginning that begs you to release it, and it has a massively different writing style than Yomi - almost like a damsel in distress. Unless you think it was that stupid spear saying those things, it makes me almost wonder if Light Gaia him/her/itself were trapped in there along with Yomi. That would explain why the resurrection of the world starts right after you open it, and why opening the box was necessary to resurrect the world at all - after all, if that's really what the Elder wanted to do, he could have just given you some weapons and ordered you to do it. And the game is so specific about the Lightside being the one that did the creating in the game intro... it makes me wonder if Dark Gaia really did prefer the world in its original destroyed state, but realized the world was going to awaken since you released the Lightside, and the Elder just decided to go along for the ride and make the most of the situation by getting the world to revive his way. It all seems to make sense, but the Ch. 4 intro messes it up. The "Yomi in charge" idea kind of answers some of those problems, but not as nicely as I would like.
Vespertilio Posted 9/28/2006 10:31:07 AM message detail		Well, as you pointed out, killing D. Elle off was inevitable. If we're thining at it from the writer's point of view, maybe he wanted to giver her a bit more dignity. I don't really remember thinking it was cliche, I was rather touched actually, but to each his own. I would disagree with the idea that ark finding the box was an accident...it seemed pretty evident that the elder wanted the box found. I mean, Ark's a trouble maker, and Elder told him specifically never to go into that door. You can't really get a better example of bait than that. I think Yomi's line about "Someone strays from the flock like you" is more a reference to Ark's "existing outside the loop of fate" or being a god, or whatever. The resurecction of the world starts because Ark makes it so, and he does so because of Elder, or at least, indirectly because of elder. I don't think it would've just happened unless ark had climbed each of the towers and started the resurrection. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
AlkaSetzer Posted 9/29/2006 2:16:20 AM message detail		Well, as you pointed out, killing D. Elle off was inevitable. If we're thining at it from the writer's point of view, maybe he wanted to giver her a bit more dignity. Oh, I absolutely agree. As I said before, turning her into one of those "attack souls" at the end would have been very depressing. I don't really remember thinking it was cliche, I was rather touched actually, but to each his own. I found it clichéd on two different levels. First of all, as a way to give the hero some angst, make him pissed at the villain, etc. a very standard thing to do is to kill off someone dear to him. But on another level, you had that question going on the whole game about L. Elle vs. D. Elle, and which one Ark really loved. Killing one of them off seemed like an extremely standard way to resolve that question (just look at any James Bond movie with multiple female potential love interests in it - one always gets knocked off so that the other one is left), and kind of a cop out. Of course, Ark doesn't actually end up with L. Elle, so that kind of mitigates it, but that doesn't change the fact that at the time, when the Ch. 4 intro was playing, it felt clichéd. And then it caused me not to know what I was supposed to do after beating Beruga - I didn't even think of going back to Crysta, because looking at it from the main character's point of view, that place had nothing left for me anymore. I headed to Storkolm expecting to see the endgame, and was confused when there was nothing there (perhaps L. Elle should have been there with some dialogue asking Ark to go check the crash site to see if Fyda made it somehow, or something). I think Yomi's line about "Someone strays from the flock like you" is more a reference to Ark's "existing outside the loop of fate" or being a god, or whatever. I dunno, straying is a pretty definite action implying disobedience, not that "loop of fate" which is just a state of being. The resurecction of the world starts because Ark makes it so, and he does so because of Elder, or at least, indirectly because of elder. I don't think it would've just happened unless ark had climbed each of the towers and started the resurrection. I dunno, IIRC the guardian keeps using the word "control" when he tells Ark his mission. The towers control living things, if you complete them you can gain control over the earth, etc. Maybe DG wanted us to think that we were actually resurrecting the world, but in actuality all we were doing was gaining control over the resurrection that was already happening due to the release of the Lightside. Oh, and speeding the resurrection up by clearing out monsters that were getting in the way. It always bothered me a bit that the entire world's vegetation is supposed to all immediately get restored just because you killed one parasite in one tree...
Vespertilio Posted 9/30/2006 4:25:24 PM message detail		Is it immediate? I always kind of though that after you beat that, ark like, passed out for a century or something. I would still hold that Ark coming into existence, and being the hero or whatever that he is, is what Yomi is making reference to there. It's possible that you're just gaining control of the resurrection, but I see two problems with this idea. The first is, why didn't the elder just shanghai control from you after that? Ark totally would've trusted him with it, and then he could manipulate the world as he wanted to. The other is, if you had control over the resurrection, why did things like the parasite make it through the resurrection process? --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
AlkaSetzer Posted 10/1/2006 7:12:25 PM message detail		It's possible that you're just gaining control of the resurrection, but I see two problems with this idea. The first is, why didn't the elder just shanghai control from you after that? Ark totally would've trusted him with it, and then he could manipulate the world as he wanted to. Who's to say he didn't? Unless you've got a better explanation for Beruga's Lab getting resurrected with all its futuristic technology, robots, computers, etc. while the rest of the world needs help just rediscovering the light bulb... The other is, if you had control over the resurrection, why did things like the parasite make it through the resurrection process? 1. Who said it was total control? 2. Maybe that was so that Ark would have to go topside, which was needed to waken Beruga.
Snow_rock Posted 10/2/2006 8:57:06 AM message detail	pathetic world, dear soul. if D. Elle had been alive at the end, she would have had to have been one of those possessed villagers at the end who turn into the disembodied souls and attack you when you come back to Crysta, and that may have been too dark. This got me thinking about the part where Ark returns. Allow me to look at Elle's character. She's the center of Ark's social life. Sure, Ark could have a "mother" or some kids that admire him. But only Elle seems most attached to him. She's the first person he sees upon waking up. She creates the silver cape. Only she cried when Ark left. By losing d.Elle, Ark would lose heart, And returning to Crysta would seem pointless. Not to mention painful because of a missing presence. But to stay on the over world, he can forget the past and move on. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Vespertilio Posted 10/2/2006 10:08:01 AM message detail	I can't say I really think beruga's lab a prime example of Elder having control of any sort, as you pointed out, the vegetation on the earth just sort of springs up. I think this would be something like laziness, but Beruga is a genius of undefined intellegence, it's completely feasible that he's just so smart he got everything togeather in a jiffy. And why did ark have to go top side for Beruga to awaken? --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Timberwulf Posted 10/2/2006 4:10:21 PM message detail	Wasn't the popular theory that the Gaias cannot directly influence the world with resounding accuracy or impact? I mean, it's clear DG created Crysta but this seems like more of an exception than a rule. The reason Ark has to go topside to reawaken Beruga is simply because DG can't, or isn't allowed to! This does warrant further discussion.
Phoenix Fist Posted 10/3/2006 5:42:51 AM message detail	Finaly got my grubbly little mitts on this game. I lost it long ago and now it's on my way in the mail :D --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
polopili Posted 10/4/2006 4:28:42 PM message detail	I found it a bit strange... You were created by the bad guy to resurect a mad scientist who wants to destroy the world. Oh noes! you merged with the dead good and killed the bad guy. Grats, now you killed it, get back to your imaginary village and die, lawl. hmm wait... where is the pheonix in this story? What happened to lyda? why did you become a bird? What was in the box? what were the towers for? what the hell is that!?
Snow_rock Posted 10/5/2006 2:06:13 AM message detail	uh. the concept of the bird is still vague. I'm not sure if that's Ark. Do remember that he just dreamed it. But if the bird scene wasn't a dream, I have no idea who the bird is. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
SaltySumo Posted 10/5/2006 2:43:46 PM message detail	Just completed this for the first time and I absolutely love the ending yet I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out but when ark talks to yomi he says that hes been with him all that time and just found out hes cool guy. Simple flaw here right? Thats lightside yomi and not darkside yomi. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
nepheliad Posted 10/5/2006 4:41:44 PM message detail	XD Not nearly that simple, if you would believe some of us on this board... Am too tired to explain, but will later. Also, will respond to posts that I should have days ago tomorrow. Classwork bogging me down. >_< --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Timberwulf Posted 10/5/2006 5:59:59 PM message detail	lol, don't worry, I think it's just a text mess up :P. The Phoenix? He's just... not here. We have some good theories that could explain why, but imho the people in charge just didn't want it in this game for whatever reason :S. Lyda? I assume you mean Fyda, in which case it's up to discussion but it seems likely that they both died... It's almost unanimously agreed that the credits are a dream. [joke]How else do you explain the flying words?[/joke] Which box? The first box (Cryspear, Your Inventory Screen, Dark Yomi) or second box (Hero Pike, Hero Armour, Light Yomi)? The Towers are some kind of mystical control stations for the world above or... something... did we even talk about that?
AlkaSetzer Posted 10/7/2006 12:16:35 PM message detail	This got me thinking about the part where Ark returns. Allow me to look at Elle's character. She's the center of Ark's social life. Sure, Ark could have a "mother" or some kids that admire him. But only Elle seems most attached to him. She's the first person he sees upon waking up. She creates the silver cape. Only she cried when Ark left. By losing d.Elle, Ark would lose heart, And returning to Crysta would seem pointless. Not to mention painful because of a missing presence. But to stay on the over world, he can forget the past and move on. Yeah, I know. That's why I said that for me at least, the Ch. 4 intro messed up the story flow. After that, I had no desire to go back to Crysta at all, and after beating Beruga I headed to Storkolm, got confused when nothing happened, and then had to read a FAQ to figure out what the heck I was supposed to do. Just completed this for the first time and I absolutely love the ending yet I'm not sure if anyone has pointed this out but when ark talks to yomi he says that hes been with him all that time and just found out hes cool guy. Simple flaw here right? Thats lightside yomi and not darkside yomi. Yeah, that's why I think the Ch. 4 intro was added very late in the development process - it seems inconsistent with the rest of the game.
nepheliad Posted 10/7/2006 11:09:11 PM message detail	From a while back - Regarding Elle's death: My opinion of it is that it is a cliche in concept, but not in execution, and to me, the latter bears far more weight than the former - as per the whole, "derivative of a derivative of a derivative of early guttural grunting," thing. What would have been cliche is if Ark became a brooding figure, a person spiraling into despair, and clinging to Light Elle afterwards. However, that was not the case; he rallied fairly quickly, found his resolve, and deigned not to let it derail him. As for Dark Elle herself, though, it was somewhat of a generic moment, but a lot worse could be said, and it triggered the right emotions. Concerning resurrection and control: The nature of the resurrections make me wonder. Barring the resurrection of humanity, they seem to have been instantaneous, a sign that the world isn't rebuilding from scratch. It does insinuate a "memory", if you will, of the past, albeit a murky one - something like a "last known good configuration"; Beruga being able to survive the apocalypse gave him a "save point". Perhaps it is an anomaly set by the arbiter; it is a pivot point of fate, after all. And certainly, it is possible that D.G. has some kind of control, but that control extends only to those who are bound to him (by Crystal Blue or by contract). About creation and the Gaias: Yes, the opening text does say that Light Gaia wills new life. However, "new life" and rebirth are fairly different things. Also, note that Dark Gaia has his/her/its own agenda, too - to cause disharmony. Hard to do that when there is nothing to "disharmonize". Also, I would argue that one oughtn't put too much store in opening text, even barring the obvious "46 billion years" typo. It is very tilted towards Light Gaia, drawing the line between "good" and "evil" much more clearly than the game would have it. In fact, almost all stories are inherently biased towards the protagonist. Why have this opening text? Well, aside from being simply intriguing and spiritual, it served to define the "good" and the "evil"; some parts of the game would have us doubt the alignment of the Gaias, and this keeps us in the perspective that the story is being told from. Ah, Yomi, and my mule-headed defense of my ideas concerning that pink puff. Let me preface this by saying that yes, I am aware that the easiest thing is that it was a text foul-up. The translator FUBAR'ed, leaving the meaning obscured. However, I never liked the simple explanation. I doubt that the Quintet staff would make such a glaring mistake. It seems out of character, especially since the rest of the game was either well-planned or ambiguous enough for a range of interpretations. Quoting myself from earlier in this thread for details (yes, I know - lazy, lazy, lazy): "I'm pretty sure you got this (it was one of the few points that the game had cutting clarity ^^;), but just in case you didn't (your post was a little ambiguous at that point), the Ark that was speaking with Yomi at the end was Darkside, so it would follow that he feels Yomi has accompanied him through the entirety of his journey - because he/it did. I always figured that titles of "light" and "dark" Yomis were misnomers; there is only one, and Ark probably figured that out at some point (towards the end). After all, Yomi transcends normal existence, and Yomi doesn't object to Ark's line. I can't think of another way that that'd make sense. What Yomi says makes me think that Yomi is the one in control. Rather odd, but his/its grasp of events seems to be above even that of the Gaian entities.
nepheliad Posted 10/7/2006 11:11:08 PM message detail	And so, I shall conclude with my two cents on the way things occurred. Yomi is Yomi. No light, no dark. Yomi betrayed Ark in order to motivate him, in that Ark has to be willing to give up his life, and everything he loved. Basically, Yomi's intent was to kill Elle, not Ark. This would then trigger something in Ark, whether it be a turn to Light Gaia's (to avenge; alternatively, he'd already been against DG, but was unable to devote himself to defeating DG because of what he'd lose) or Dark Gaia's side (giving up and going with the plan). Ark chose, obviously, to side with Light Gaia, thus saving the world. Only at the end does he realize Yomi's ploy, but by that time, events have ceased to be malleable, and his anger has dissipated. This scenario does credit Ark with being more insightful than what I'd thought before; he'd have to realize that in defeating Dark Gaia, he'd destroy Crysta. However, he does show depth (and after my recent playthrough, I realized that he had much more depth than I credited him with), and does introspect and contemplate at varying points in the game, so he's not merely charging headlong into things without thinking of their ramifications. Dark Elle's death ultimately served to allow him to relinquish Crysta to do the greater good - save the overworld." This, along with the various other things that have been posted on the matter, is my explanation for it. As a note, it is self-exclusive, and not necessarily part of the "Yomi the Arbiter" theory. Though it would be a perfect fit for the latter, I actually posted this before the idea of Yomi being the puppet-master (distinct from merely having a better, objective view of things) of things had attracted my attention. How many of these split posts am I going to have to make by the time I part company with this board? --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
SaltySumo Posted 10/12/2006 12:52:12 PM message detail	I totally disagree with your yomi theory because even yomi has two sides. Chap 4 is where dark yomi betrays you and gets destroyed and light yomi is released could be significant as dark being dominant then dark destroys dark and finally light being resurrected (ie what happens in the end well almost). Dark yomi planned to kill ark when he resurrected beruga and not Dark elle. Dark elle also sacrificed herself so that ark could save the planet. Dark elle also was sent by the elder to kill him and as she loved him, she couldn't do it. When yomi tries, she kills him and herself. Yomi therefore did not plan to kill Dark elle. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
nepheliad Posted 10/12/2006 4:41:13 PM message detail	Well, that's a matter of face value interpretation versus conjecture. If you read carefully, I do lay out my argument in anticipation of the obvious thing that you have noted; I'm not so dense that I don't see what is made plain - merely too active in convoluted imagination to accept that at face value. ^_^; I understand perfectly well, though, that my little theory is rather odd, and probably not what was intended. I threw it out because I personally like the philosophical/literary/artistic value it has, and am not able to find a single piece of evidence to the contrary that cannot be debated. Just so you don't assume me an idiot, Salty Sumo. If I was any regular old person, I'd be perfectly content to accept the two sided Yomi - it was outright enough in presentation, but I'm sadly not, and must concoct strange ideas whenever a subject is not wholly airtight. XD Feel free to refute me, though! I welcome the challenge - just setting us (everyone, that is) on equal footing - that is, thinking beyond the obvious, the immediate. It's the fun of the debate, to me, to defend a marginalistic view. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Vespertilio Posted 10/12/2006 9:54:45 PM message detail	going along with your theory that there is only one Yomi (I'm a subscriber and all), I still would like to bring for debate, the idea that Yomi is in fact, Light Gaia. I can't think of anything to the contrary yet, but you know, the world is in shambles, you find Yomi trappeed in a box, you go up to the top, he guides you along, and even gives you the motivation to take out DG, his "opponent". It kind of makes sense to me. Any reason why it would be wrong? --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Vespertilio Posted 10/12/2006 10:10:15 PM message detail	So uhm, sorry for the double post, but I was just running around and I found something. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but it's actually about the ending, imagine that huh? This is official art mind you: http://www.fogu.com/terra/gamebook/game_img17.gif That kind of makes it look like the bird int he ending is in fact, Dark Ark, at least, that's how I'm reading it. So uhm. Yeah. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
SaltySumo Posted 10/13/2006 3:25:22 PM message detail	My theory that yomi has two sides is essential as he is what everything is made from. Without two sides any living thing will not have the two sides of them. It is a different approach i know but it fits in what yomi is and why there are two sides to him. The part where yomi was intending to kill elle is wrong due to the fact she gave up her life to kill him. Coming from the point before as every living thing has self preservation over other things then yomi wouldn't kill himself and elle at the same time. Elle's self preservation was overcome by love for ark hence her giving up her life. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
Vespertilio Posted 10/13/2006 3:53:03 PM message detail	Salty, I might recommend you read through this thread >_>... Technically speaking, it's really really easy to imagine that Yomi is a single entity, that split into several different things as time went on, it's called evolution, you know? Also, the theory we're running is that Yomi manipulated Elle (along with basically everyone/thing else) to get Ark to go after Dark Gaia. Elle certainly tried to kill Yomi, but that doesn't mean he didn't mean for it to be that way. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
SaltySumo Posted 10/14/2006 11:03:50 AM message detail	If you read my previous poster then you'll see I included evolution into it. Im saying that if yomi had only one side then over time that only one side will still exist. The only thing that would cancel this is the making of the other side by the respective gaia. I am trying to have a theory that looks in a different perspective. I agree with yomi 'controlling' elle. I think that yomi is kinda like a character in a book called 'Lord of the flies' if you read it then there is one character that is the leader yet the other does the actions. Of course the leader is DG yet yomi is the one who does the actions as therefore acts like DG's servant when he is the one in control. So in a way it is like that book about dark and light as it ends with one side being totally destroyed when the kids are rescued. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
Vespertilio Posted 10/14/2006 5:15:01 PM message detail	As I said Salty, it makes perfect sense for an asexual entity to reproduce into multipe other entities, any of which could be evil. And, I don't really understand the connection with Lord of the Flies. I've read Lord of the Flies, and unless you can throw some names down, I'm not sure if I can see the connection. --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
SaltySumo Posted 10/15/2006 1:29:40 PM message detail	I left out the names cause I didn't think anyone would have read it. Sorry for coming to that conclusion. ----Lord of the flies spoiler----- Dark gaia is like jack. Leader yet does not execute actions and takes credit for them. As Dark gaia cannot physically change the world he gets someone else to do it. Jack says it was he that said to release the boulder to kill piggy. Yomi is like roger. Does actions and should be in control. Yomi is the one that carries out dark gaia's orders yet also does other actions yet dark gaia is the one that get credit for it. Roger releases the boulder without orders from jack and kills piggy yet jack says it was his doing. ---End spoiler--- Evolution is the change of shape and behavior. It has nothing to do with development dark or light from one thing to another as it cannot be adjusted. Light cannot evolve into dark and dark cannot evolve into light. The only way dark beings can really come into existence is being created by dark gaia himself. Dark gaia still exists due to destruction and death. If he wasn't there then the world would not support the overpopulation and die. Dark gaia wants to control the world to make it his own paradise so he creates a dark side to vanquish light. As things are not dark on the surface they would not disappear when dark gaia was sealed. So how can evolution change dark and light? Well it cannot. Personality may become more fixated with one yet it does not change what type the being is. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
Corleone47 Posted 10/17/2006 2:32:35 AM message detail	Yup... Terranigma has one of the best ending along with lufia which are quite touching. No... i mean very touching.
nepheliad Posted 10/18/2006 9:24:22 PM message detail	@ SaltySumo - >_> ...Yomi explicitly said things evolved from him/her/it, and may evolve back to him. Here are the lines: "All living things evolved the way they are now from one creature. Before evolution started, they all looked like me. Maybe humans will evolve to my style again..." And something just occurred to me. If you are right - if the Gaias can only create beings of one side - then something must be wrong, because if there can be a "Dark Yomi", and all things evolved from Yomi-beings, then how can a mixed being even occur, if Yomi itself cannot mix? You said that they were static - if that's the case, then Yomi must be able to as well, bar some kind of arbiter that allows anomalies. Also, given your points, nothing has been said that disproves the possibility of there being one Yomi. We know that beings can be mixed; why shouldn't this be possible of Yomi? And the entire thread of thought is that Yomi either lies outside of or above the Gaias, not below - a kind of puppet-master that uses the Gaias to allow existence, controlling the net equilibrium and the specific disequilibrium that creates a dynamic world. What Yomi being outside the Gaias (not by influence, but as a being) entails should be pretty obvious. You'll have to provide conclusive evidence against it, and if you can, please do, since there are definite subscribers to the "One Yomi Theory", and acceptance of the plausibility of the "Arbiter Theory" (which, while not necessarily referring to Yomi, insinuates that something is above the Gaias). And that means that you'll have to contend head to head with me, 'cause I posited both, and will work tirelessly to defend them. XD As such, there's already a wealth of information posted by yours truly on the matter; I'll summarize them if you wish. ...We need a Yomi thread. But not right now; there's a plot conjecture overload already. --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
SaltySumo Posted 10/21/2006 1:07:39 PM message detail	The only mixed person we see in the game is Ark. It could be that only the hero can become mixed. This was done due to the wishes of light gaia and that was the reason he became mixed so he could destroy dark gaia. As Dark Ark headed down the path that eventually destroys Dark gaia, Light gaia helps Dark Ark to become mixed with his dead light self. As Ark is the hero he was mixed for a purpose. It would be very unlikely that someone like elle was mixed as she has no usefulness in the war between dark and light gaias. We know that crysta was a copy of storkholm and that all residents of crysta was also copied. It could be that Dark yomi is an exact copy (personality etc. except of the light and dark 'content') of light yomi. Due to this Yomi is basically the same yet only has a difference is the dark/light 'content'. For the Arbiter theory there is no part in the game that proves yomi controls the gaias. If he did control the gaias then there is one question that comes to mind. If he does control the gaias then how did he exist in order to control them? Somehow that cannot happen at all cause in order for him to live the gaias must create him. If you say the gaias created him then another question comes to mind. Why would the gaias create yomi just for him to control them? There is no way the gaias would like to be controlled by something they themselves created. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
kain50bc Posted 10/22/2006 10:50:59 PM message detail	did we consider that the gaia's were resurrected with the world those several times? maybe they created yomi in a previous instance and once they were weakened he took over? --- No risk no fun. No fun no life. Take risks and stay alive! HAVE FUN!!
DeusMortem Posted 10/24/2006 8:09:23 AM message detail	uh. the concept of the bird is still vague. I'm not sure if that's Ark. Do remember that he just dreamed it. But if the bird scene wasn't a dream, I have no idea who the bird is. The bird scene is meant to be open for interpretation; either the bird soaring the skies is Ark reincarnated, or it's just his final dream. We'll never know for sure. That's partly what makes it so indescribably beautiful. It made such a big impact on me, I think of Terranigma and Ark almost every day, even many years after beating the game... I even got a youtube profile to contact a guy from Guatemala who had put up the bird sequence of Terranigma, followed by the description that it almost made him cry. XD That guy is awesome! --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
SaltySumo Posted 10/24/2006 8:11:30 AM message detail	When the gaias are sealed their side also disappears as with yomi of that side too. It is impossible for yomi to take control if he too disappears. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
Back as a wolf Posted 10/24/2006 9:34:55 AM message detail	Yomi is the one to be released from Pandora's box, correct? We can tell that once the continents are raised up, that the monsters in question are perverted versions of their true selves. Bird demons, human yetis, etc. These all came from one being, Yomi. There are two Yomis. Yomi of Light and Yomi of Dark. Yomi of Dark was made from Crystal Blue to copy Yomi of Light, the same way the rest of those inhabitants are simply copies of real world people. The pandora's box copy was created to hold Light Gaia's power, because in the actual story of Pandora's box, is released evil upon the world. In the game, it held powers untold. Light version held the Hero's Pike and Hero's Armour (as well as the imprisoned Light Yomi) while Dark Box held CrySpear and Dark Yomi. Along with these boxes, did you ever wonder why you were only told to go to the towers AFTER opening the box? The reason is simple, though it is still simply my opinion. Dark Gaia and Light Gaia don't screw around with the other boxes until the time is right. Light Gaia tries to keep Dark Gaia in check, and at the time that Terranigma takes place, Dark Gaia has the Dark Pandora's Box to keep Light Gaia from spawning new creatures. Perhaps they can't mess with the other boxes at all, only their own, and the result is of one being sealed. For all we know, I might have it backwards, and the Dark Box might only hold Dark Gaia's power while Light Gaia box might hold Light Gaia's power, meaning that if they can't mess with their own box and they eventually are sealed, then perhaps they are sealed in their respective boxes awaiting to be opened? Since you weren't told to go resurrect the overworld for the purpose of Dark Gaia ruling it until someone opened the box..perhaps if some random boy had opened the box, he might've been sent out instead. The result would be similar, of Dark Gaia's powers starting to be restored. However, when Ark stepped outta line, Dark Gaia told Dark Yomi to do whatever he could to get rid of Dark Ark. I realize I changed my theory several times in there, so here's a summary: --- Rest in peace, Jasmine, my poorly named male sun conure. 4/21/06. I looked forward to this day for SH movie only to receive this.
Back as a wolf Posted 10/24/2006 9:35:02 AM message detail	Two Pandora's Boxes. Light, Dark. Light contains Light Yomi, Dark contains Dark Yomi, both of which are the means to spawn creatures throughouts. Dark Yomi spawns demons, Light Yomi spawns..well, not demons. Because of Pandora's Box and the towers erected, Light Gaia is held in check, unable to do anything. Meanwhile, Dark Box is opened by Ark releasing some of Dark Gaia's powers (He'd been influencing them as he influenced Beruga and others) enough, but he still couldn't touch the towers, since the soul guardians were part of Light Gaia's influence, a last resort if you will. Dark Ark went through the towers and any other random place to resurrect various places, Dark Ark resurrected tons of creatures and humans and plants and animals and other stuff, and Dark Gaia waited for the moment for the one man who had the power to destroy the Earth could arrive (Beruga) via Asmodeus. Now, remember in Astarica? In all likelihood, that was Light Ark, before the world had perished, meaning Light Ark is dead. Dark Ark finds Light Ark's grave, fuses, and is reborn. Light Elle helps the new baby out a bit, Dark Elle is dead, Dark Yomi is dead, Dark Box is gone, Light Box is found. Ark gains hero's pike and hero's armour as well as Light Yomi who is there to help Ark out. While Light Yomi and Dark Yomi are able to create creatures, since Dark Yomi was the only yomi around, he could've spawned the demons you fought on the surface. When you "purified" them, they became the same creatures Light Yomi could've just spawned from the beginning, but he couldn't because he was locked up. Now, don't forget, Light Box held Light Gaia's power as well, so when Ark opened it, Light Gaia could go forth and open the caverns to the underworld again. Ark could travel down and greet Dark Gaia, who you would defeat, and then you would disappear since you were all puppets created by Dark Gaia out of Crystal Blue which is, in all likelihood, simply memories or energy sources being sucked away from the at-then despaired and locked-up Gaia. With Light Gaia free and no longer getting energy taken away from him, not only is their source of energy refining gone (Dark Gaia), and their source of the energy isn't about to do crap about the underworld (Light Gaia), and assuming that Ark stayed as Neutral Ark, then when Dark Ark would disappear, Light Ark would be stuck in the underworld. Those magma rivers might pop up and burn everything, among other problems now that the underworld is disappearing, so Dark Ark would disappear with Crysta while Light Ark would die. Keep in mind, Light Gaia decided he would give Ark a bit more time to say his goodbyes before killing him off, and basically said to him that he will be reincarnated eventually when he is needed. With dark ark gone and light ark dead, the spirit could reincarnate into a bird while Dark Ark could dream of being the bird. Basically, what Dark Ark dreams is what Light Ark experiences. Thoughts? --- Rest in peace, Jasmine, my poorly named male sun conure. 4/21/06. I looked forward to this day for SH movie only to receive this.
Back as a wolf Posted 10/24/2006 7:24:00 PM message detail	I've restarted my game, and surprisingly enough, the elder says that the Box comes from the world opposite of their own. This could mean that the Dark Box is in fact the Light Box containing Light Gaia's power and the Light Box is in fact th dark box. --- Rest in peace, Jasmine, my poorly named male sun conure. 4/21/06. I looked forward to this day for SH movie only to receive this.
Back as a wolf Posted 10/26/2006 3:36:25 PM message detail	Also, to bring up the earlier argument, even if it did have a mortality rate, people in Illusion of Gaia died from evolving so quickly. Basically, a hyperactive and uber quick form of cancer. We already had beings. Despite being "devoid of life and desolate" there were monsters which resembled other creatures. Ever wonder why many of the monsters eventually disappeared? Easy: Asmodeus verses Ark. Ark was sent out to resurrect the land, and thus he did so. The perverted monsters evolved back into their..well, good forms. So, either Dark Yomi created monsters on the land, or they are the mutated versioins of the original beings. Makes sense, yes? --- Rest in peace, Jasmine, my poorly named male sun conure. 4/21/06. I looked forward to this day for SH movie only to receive this.
bhuj Posted 10/30/2006 3:09:32 AM message detail	Damn, I'm way late for this topic, but I just gotta say, the ending for this game is simply the most sublime and profound I've ever seen. Truly gorgeous. Continue on with your conversation, I'm gonna read over the last 48 pages. :)
DeusMortem Posted 10/30/2006 11:38:07 PM message detail	Hello, ending topic. :-D Keep up paying tribute to this great piece of art, guys. :-) --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Snow_rock Posted 10/31/2006 2:31:07 AM message detail	ohwowyoucameback! And after being quiet for a time span of 40+ pages. You're topic was a hit. Congratulations. --- the dead DOESN'T fear everything
Kaine76X Posted 11/1/2006 10:29:41 PM message detail	Yes, the ending was something very special, no doubt about that. --- Meh... Sig...
Phoenix Fist Posted 11/2/2006 2:52:28 PM message detail	The ending was special, yes... But when ark says "someone give me my carefree days back!" the floodgates open for me. --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
nepheliad Posted 11/2/2006 9:08:39 PM message detail	Aw, I missed him! Can't seem to get in contact with him at all. But when ark says "someone give me my carefree days back!" the floodgates open for me. That moved me greatly as well. That whole bit was amazing; instead of the generic, "I'm going to get revenge!" or "I'm going to destroy the evil being responsible," Ark laments at contentment lost, and notes that what matters most is not necessarily "good" and "evil", but being happy. In fact, that came off to me as the strongest of the many themes in Terranigma, and something that distinguishes the game. In response to SaltySumo - How did the Gaias exist to create Yomi? That's an argument that swings both ways; my theory is that Yomi is above the Gaias and existed before they did. Also, if Yomi was the Arbiter, he'd be pretty darned important, no? More so than Ark, even. And again, my objective is not to prove it as the most likely theory out there; I aim to prove it simply as one that is possible, so until evidence emerges that disproves the plausibility of it, I stand by my case. Wow, Back as a wolf. It's going to take me a bit to go through that. It seems that you've addressed various aspects of the plot all at once, and woven it into a nice over-arching theory. Not one I agree with, but nice, from the bit I've read. Expect to have it dissected soon, though! XD --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
bhuj Posted 11/2/2006 10:40:19 PM message detail	Man, I am going to copy this thread word for word and paste onto a text document. It's simply the most profound discussion on a video game I've ever seen. It would be a crime not to save it in some way. Least, not for me. Heh, I hope the mods sticky it as the ultimate tribute to this game on the site.
DeusMortem Posted 11/3/2006 4:18:19 AM message detail	Yes, hello guys! :-D I come back every once in a while to see how the tributing is doing. I am really glad other people than me care for this game. :-) --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Vespertilio Posted 11/3/2006 3:42:10 PM message detail	Hey guys...only 10 more posts til the thread ends... --- www.vespertilio.netfirms.com Spinning in the void
Phoenix Fist Posted 11/3/2006 4:34:45 PM message detail	I saw the ending again for the first time in a good few years. Wandering around in Ark's town again ... the tears just kept on coming. --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
nepheliad Posted 11/3/2006 5:08:51 PM message detail	I am, of course, archiving this thread for my own purposes. Not simply because it is one of the most profound and impressive analytical discussions I've seen, but because it is one of the most profound and impressive analytical discussions I've been in. ^_^ Hmm. I think I've posted more in this thread than anyone else! That's vaguely frightening, yet I can't help be feel an odd sense of pride. ^_^; And to think that this will soon be purged! Cruel is the impersonal machine of a forum... Already wrote my gush post a while ago, so I'm not going to again. Unless, of course, I snag the 500th post. I'll be on vigil for a while, because I really want that privilege. ^_^ --- My favorite adage: Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be equally explained by stupidity.
Shieftain Posted 11/3/2006 9:52:40 PM message detail	Man, I've played this game so many times... --- "Why must the good die young?!" - Sheen, from Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius
Shieftain Posted 11/3/2006 9:56:15 PM message detail	Oh! Is there anyone generous enough to post the video of the ending.... please?? --- "Why must the good die young?!" - Sheen, from Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius
DeusMortem Posted 11/4/2006 12:51:17 AM message detail	I wish we could all make that 500:th post. :-( --- I ceased to exist about a year ago. My soul is nothing more than a gaping void these days.
Shieftain Posted 11/4/2006 9:55:09 AM message detail	Huh? Which post are you talking about? --- "Why must the good die young?!" - Sheen, from Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius
Phoenix Fist Posted 11/4/2006 2:17:58 PM message detail	part one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gKspazUiow part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2RvQa3YwbA&mode=related&search= --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
SaltySumo Posted 11/4/2006 3:04:55 PM message detail	If yomi did exist before the gaias then it would just be like how the universe began. The yomi that existed before the gaias is light (Dark yomi is created by dark gaia). The balance between light and dark is non existent and just like the universe had light left over (i.e Yomi). The universe started with particles and anti particles. As time goes on those particles and anti particles annihilate yet only a small mass of particles existed. These particles is what makes the universe today. Yet one thing separates dark and light to particles. Dark and light content cannot be changed yet particles can. So the only way light and dark exists is if the gaias created everything and so light yomi cannot exist before the gaias. Reason is that dark could not be converted by light. Remember dark yomi was created by dark gaia to guide ark on his journey. Of course if yomi really was in control of it all why was he obeying the elder even though he was not in crysta. Like I said he was made by the gaias so he would take orders from them. Dark yomi helps ark to succeed in resurrecting beruga and as he did dark yomi was going to kill ark as ordered by dark gaia and so he is not in control over dark gaia yet has the power in his actions to do so. I am shocked that i used my knowledge in particles into some use. --- Just completed Lufia 2 over 3 days and it took 19 hours. Awesome game try it.
Phoenix Fist Posted 11/4/2006 4:44:11 PM message detail	the floor is yours, nephilaid --- without a bold signature, my posts are hard to find and often ignored
Magus of the Shadows Posted 11/4/2006 6:02:44 PM message detail	AND INEXPLICABLY, THE FINAL POST OF THE TERRANIGMA ENDING TOPIC IS ABOUT... BORAT! So. My favorite part was the wrestling scene in the hotel.