Scottish Parliament

Scottish Parliament
The Unofficial Report 1999 - 2003

The Convener: I ask members not to nod, because "nod" cannot be written in the Official Report. Members indicated agreement.

Committee witness: The victims may not be given a reason for the decision-there may be reasons why they are not being given the reason, but at least they are being told the reason, which is at least a reason.

Helen Eadie: . . . examples of the way that old people have been killed-not killed but treated, rather . . .

Rhoda Grant: Quotas and discards tend to go hand in hand in a mixed fishery. Discards are extremely wasteful, as live fish are thrown back into the sea dead.

Bruce Crawford: Yes, the promoters have to jump through hoops, but can we not bring the hoops together to make one basket and take a more single-door approach, rather than having such a spread of legislative requirement?

Helen Eadie: I welcome the minister's statement this morning, particularly its reference to changing the legal status of the LECs. I saw a ripple through this side of the house of pleasure from my colleagues.

Gil Paterson: Given that concerns have been raised regarding child abuse through prostitution and the internet in this chamber on many occasions . . .

John Home Robertson: At present, there are just three ways into farming: patrimony, matrimony or lottery money.

Donald Gorrie: In many parts of Scotland, gardening is the most creative thing that many adults do. There are majorettes, and small girls find that an excellent outlet.

Alex Johnstone: It has been suggested that I should allow the witnesses to return to the pub-their seats in the public gallery, if they wish. [Laughter.]

Des McNulty: It is not the case that Government in general can get all its policy ducks in a line and automatically get through the sausage machine a resolution of the problem.

Donald Gorrie: I do not understand why the world has to come to an end at 12.30 each day and if the vote was taken at 12.30 and the meeting drifted on for a minute or two, we would all go to jail.

Committee witness: I am here today wearing a Scottish Tourism Forum hat.

Dorothy-Grace Elder: Democracy begins to dissolve completely when there is whipping. The vote on the international situation was whipped-members were cudgelled like seals.

Margaret Smith: John Forbes is our expert, as opposed to all of us, who are-I am not quite sure what we are, actually.

Fiona Hyslop: We are not, y'know, that financially expert in this committee.

Committee witness: The next slide is an exciting image of a sewer being laid.

Sandra White: I admire and applaud the staff and prisoners there for the terrible conditions. (Barlinnie)

Donald Gorrie: Obviously, you do not want somebody who is under the influence of drugs dangling somebody else on a rope over a cliff.

Karen Gillon: I am keen that we do not just get . . . saddled with the same old hobby-horses.

Jamie McGrigor: Loch Eck and Loch Lomond have the same ecosystem, which is unique in Britain. They are like peas in a pod-one bigger, one smaller.

Alasdair Morgan: [Crofters] feel that the Government is almost actively discouraging live exports, in a passive way.

Alasdair Morgan: I think that this is a chicken-and-egg situation waiting for a virgin birth to happen.

Committee witness: There is a perception that the fishermen are the only bad wolves in the forest.

Annabel Goldie: As a young girl, my father brought home two American sailors . . .

John Young: I am over 70, and Winnie Ewing is older than that.

Committee witness: All that builders and developers ask for is a level playing field.

Nicol Stephen: Amendment 1 is purely a technical amendment to clarify the interpretation of the bill. It does not actually change the bill.

Ian Jenkins: When I was a young person myself, leaving the house on some social occasion, my mother would always say, "Have you got a hankie?" I would say, "Yes," and then she would say, "Remember who you are." This indicates that there should be a sense of self worth and a recognition of the values and standards that were expected of members of my family.

Johann Lamont: We do not have a monopoly of wisdom.

Gordon Jackson: Marriage it is easy, people make a commitment, they get married, they are married, but some people meet at the dancing, go home and start living together, they start living together on Saturday, and Wednesday, is the man in a position where the lady can come along and say, oh, I live with you, out, you know. I find that quite a difficult problem.

Malcolm Chisholm: I have my hand up, Margaret.

Brian Fitzpatrick: Both those legs are key drivers of the bill.

Mike Rumbles: I want to know what the latest medical advice is and the latest medical advice will be the latest medical advice.

Ben Wallace: I would like to point out that the present arrangements are what we have at the moment.

Johann Lamont: What I would recognise is that when people are in positions where they have to make hard decisions, those decisions are hard-that is one of the things that the Labour Government has recognised.

Committee witness: I am speaking from the other side of the fence, but I agree with my colleagues that, in general, relations between farmers of different species are not too bad.

David Mundell: How are you promulgating yourself in the sense of your positioning yourself here is the glue?

Richard Lochhead: We should take the opportunity to expose ourselves to the maximum population in rural areas.

Committee witness: The people of the Borders have taken an enormous jump in the past few weeks . . . We are grappling with a jellyfish . . . My kids will not drown on the beach-the children of people who have low-paid jobs or who are unemployed will.

Jamie Stone: David Davidson, in his contribution, was interesting.      David Mundell: Was he really?   Jamie Stone: No. I am so sorry, of course he wasn't.

Sandra White: You mentioned the fact of central Government basically mentioning to, or not mentioning but directing local government along a path of, basically-what is the word for it? I am trying to think of the proper word without being too contentious. I will start again.

Gordon Jackson: I do remember 20 years ago being at a conference in India, on legal aid of all places.

Helen Eadie: Sometimes what happens when a member says something in a debate like this, another member maybe gets a misunderstanding about what that other member actually said. Sometimes that happens, convener.

Christine Grahame: I was also told that slopping out had staff resource implications and that once that function was eliminated, shift patterns could be revised to achieve savings.

Committee witness: The point is not so much that we want women to be equal to men, but that we want men to be equal to women.

Committee witness: I do not think that it is appropriate for me to step into what we have in the cooking pot at the moment.

Bruce Crawford: On top of that, even at off-peak times, it costs �22 million for a car and two people to travel by CalMac ferry to Mallaig.

Annabel Goldie: I do not agree with Mr Wilson, whose views on the economy are a bit like his sartorial style: casual to the point of being random and demonstrably uncoordinated.

Scott Barrie: The only three beaches in Scotland that attract flu bag status-I mean blue flag status-are in my home area of Fife.

Dennis Canavan: I understand that members of certain parties get told through their pagers not just how to vote, but when to vote. Members such as me, who whip ourselves-I do not particularly like self-flagellation-are at a particular disadvantage because we do not get such prior notice.

Donald Gorrie: I would like you to consider one further suggestion. At a previous meeting it was suggested that council tax demands be sent out with a standard wee card that people could keep and that told them who did what. It would say something like, "For X, Y or Z see a councillor, for A, B, C see your MSP, for MFI-or whatever-see your MP".

Brian Fitzpatrick: It is necessarily a function of general evidence taking sessions that the evidence is general.

Fiona Hyslop: I find it absolutely incredulous-that's a very good word, incredulous-that the minister cannot think to address a target of doubling a growth rate from 0.8 per cent to 1.6 per cent.

Committee witness: Such cases would be rare, but rare things happen occasionally.

Sarah Boyack: I welcome the fact that the minister has produced a framework to implement the strategy, but I draw his attention to the problem that was highlighted in the Edinburgh Evening News today. There is a danger that we will lose our centuries at Edinburgh castle in my constituency.

Committee witness: We held an event at the Hub and invented the whole Parliament along.

Iain Smith: The argument is difficult to explain, even if it could be explained to someone as thick as an MSP.

Keith Harding: I recall my own marriage some 28 years ago in Africa. We wished to marry in the Church of Scotland church, but it was closed as the congregation could not get a minister. The Dutch Reformed Church agreed to us using its church, but it too had no minister. Eventually, the Salvation Army agreed to consider marrying us, but to finalise arrangements, we had to drive 200 miles into the African bush to meet the major at a leper colony that he ran with his wife. What we do for love!

Gil Paterson: We in this Parliament ignore the potential loss of our post office network at our peril. If the network goes, a lot more will go with it. Dare I say it-we need them a lot more than we need them.

Dennis Canavan: I am sorry that Bill Aitken is no longer in the chamber because I listened with great interest to his spirited defence of underprivileged landlords such as Lord Elgin. Indeed, I came to the conclusion that Comrade Aitken and Lord Elgin have something in common-they are both in danger of losing their marbles.

Scott Barrie: I was brought up in Glenrothes new town, which, although a new town, had as its whole raison d'etre for existing to accommodate miners and their families from the nearby Rothes pit.

Jamie McGrigor: Boats that used to fish for white fish will turn into prawns.

Margaret Curran: We have to maximise minimise drives that will make the experiences of low-cost families more difficult.

Margaret Smith: The question then becomes whether or not we believe, bearing in mind what's going on at Westminster, it would be useful for us and for our wider colleagues in the Parliament and in Scotland generally that we do some work on this.

Margaret Smith: Early years have an impact on the obesity of our children and on the wider diseases that I have spoken about

Fiona Hyslop: Robert Brown is quite right-the wording in the bill should be a bit more simpler when it comes to this fashion.

Committee witness: I hope that the word elite can be used in a fairly neutral sense that does not imply elitism.

Committee witness: There is a real issue about plain English, I think, in delivery and translation in that respect.

Peter Peacock: We've got a lot of sophistication to arrive at by way of the language we use.

Committee witness: The evidence is clear: drug taking in Kilmarnock is as good as it is in Edinburgh and Perth.

Andy Kerr: I would rather reflect at leisure as opposed to repent in, er, in a short time scale.

Euan Robson: Gordon Jackson lost his prize-winning sheep at Newcastleton and is now spending night and day trying to reheft ewes on his hillside.

Committee witness: Drug taking continues to be a problem . . . we are addressing it in a number of ways, including mandatory drug testing. There is no easy fix.

The Convener: Item 2 on the agenda is subordinate legislation. We have before us the Teachers' Superannuation (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2000 (SSI 2000/366). Do members have any questions on this statutory instrument? Members: No.    The Convener: Why are you looking like that, Brian?     Brian Monteith: I am eating a lovely gypsy cream.       The Convener: There is no answer to that.

The Convener (Karen Gillon): We will now hear evidence from Capability Scotland. I ask Frank McAveety to take the chair.

The Deputy Convener (Mr Frank McAveety): Tonight, I will be Karen Gillon-like in "Stars In Their Eyes". It would take a lot of effort to get in that condition. Oh, I'll have slept around with lots of men, you know. (hint - check microphone is off!!)

Committee witness: Just to keep the committee up to date, I should point out that we rebranded a couple of weeks ago and are now called Carers Scotland instead of the Carers National Association. I hope that our new name makes it clearer what we actually do.

Wendy Alexander: Partly for the confusion of doubt, I did not include the significant additional moneys that are going in.

Ben Wallace: I have only one member and we have discussed my enlargement in private.

David Davidson: Erectile dysfunction is the contributory factor in the breakdown of many relationships. That is one of the many issues which we need to get a hold of in Scotland.

Helen Eadie: I tend to agree with you about blue sky-we do need to sometimes stand back very clearly and look at the wood from the trees.

Robert Brown: Neurologists cannot be wished up from trees.

Committee witness: That amounts to more than one bad egg in the barrel.

Robert Brown: If we hear only from umbrella bodies, we might miss the flavour of the stuff on the ground.

Fergus Ewing: Many people believe that SNH-or at least its top management-stands not for Scottish Natural Heritage but See No People. Nothing in the document will give succour to those people.        Members: That is SNP!

Fiona Hyslop: It is right and proper and responsible that the nations that make up this state contribute to international terrorism efforts.

Phil Gallie: Would Fiona McLeod accept that, without subsidies, wind farming, tidal wave, biodiversity and any other form of renewable energy would not be sustainable?

Ben Wallace: I hope that my generation will not experience the wars that killed so many in the past as a result of the EU.

Margo MacDonald: Will the First Minister look kindly on the bill that I am proposing to bring in for tolerance zones for prostitution in this Parliament? Or rather-[Laughter.] Well, it would do no harm for some folk.        The Presiding Officer: I think we know what you meant. Margo MacDonald: The First Minister knew as well. That is what worries me.

Donald Gorrie: Life proceeds on a basis of whip and carrot.

Committee witness: Beyond that, the provision would not have any material effect as far as we are concerned.    The Convener: Would the provision have any material effect?

Gordon Jackson: There is no point in sending me to look at foot-and-mouth and rural issues. I would be-to mix metaphors-a fish out of water in that field.      David Davidson: If you are looking for a volunteer, I will go. Marilyn Livingstone: I do not mind. Annabel Goldie might want to.       David Davidson: We do not know where she is with her foot.      Gordon Jackson: It is nothing to do with me.

Gordon Jackson: One man's emergency is another man's bee in the bonnet.

Margaret Smith: There are no further questions. Thank you for your contributions, both verbal and oral.

Margaret Curran: That is why we have to put this in the context of improving housing across the board. If the spouse has a better house-or at least a gooder house-to go to, they are perhaps more likely to move.

Committee witness: Twenty-one days allows three cycles of the disease to cycle throughout the herd.

Alex Johnstone: If we now move on to the topic that we have discussed-er, mentioned-er, renamed "Agriculture" . . .

Duncan Hamilton: What exactly are we doing here?

Ben Wallace: It's all fun on this committee.

Andrew Wilson: At the risk of flogging the dead horse of the bard of Avon, I am tempted to open with a Shakespearean reference to please Maureen Macmillan:

"Stands Scotland where it did?" Unfortunately, as Alex Johnstone would confirm, yes it has been, for hours on end, due to the chaos in the transport infrastructure.    Maureen Macmillan: Will Andrew Wilson take an intervention?     Andrew Wilson: At 18 seconds into my speech, I would be over the moon: wire in. Maureen Macmillan: Could the member perhaps repeat his last sentence, but this time make it grammatical?        Andrew Wilson: The arrogance on the Labour benches has broken new bounds. If an English teacher from the Highlands is criticising William Shakespeare for being ungrammatical, we have little hope for humility. That was a direct quote from "Hamlet". If Maureen Macmillan does not recognise it, I suggest that some more reading would be appropriate.      Maureen Macmillan rose- Andrew Wilson: Take your seat.

Committee witness: Many people who would like the assistance that digital hearing aids bring are suffering in silence.

Donald Gorrie: An underlying issue is whether you are best judged by your peers or by independent people, i.e. someone from outer space who knows nothing about it at all, but is a wise and sensible person.

Ian Jenkins: I am also a member of the committee that is at the other end of the scale regarding meeting time and the length of meetings. Members of that committee were upset about the tone of the diary piece on meetings. However, as we know, measurements of quality are always difficult to make.        Michael Russell: Absolutely. Tell them that we do not believe in such crude standards-nor should we in educational terms.       The Convener: We will not get into measurements and men. [Interruption.] Mr McAveety states on the record that men are prone to exaggerate measurements.        Michael Russell: I think that that remark would have been better made in private.       The Convener: Strike it from the record.        Michael Russell: You cannot do that.

Mary Scanlon: It does not give me great hope when you are firing broadswords against the NHS.

Bill Aitken: You said, perfectly correctly, that a heterosexual couple having sex in a park would be charged with a breach of the peace. There is of course a sexual element to that offence.

Christine Grahame: Often the only sign of the disease is fatality.

Committee witness: We do not have a plethora of toilets . . .

The Convener: The next instrument for consideration is the Act of Sedurunt-     Ian Jenkins: It is pronounced "sederunt".       The Convener: You are all saying the word differently. I will pronounce it "sederunt", with the stress on the first syllable, as I will remember that. The next instrument for consideration is the Act of Sederunt (Summary Applications, Statutory Applications and Appeals etc Rules) Amendment (Detention and Forfeiture of Terrorist Cash) 2002 (SSI 2002/129).   Murdo, how would you pronounce "sederunt"?      Murdo Fraser: I would say "sederunt", with the stress on the first syllable.    Colin Campbell: I would say "sederunt", with the stress on the second syllable. Murdo Fraser: That is because you are a Latin scholar. Colin Campbell: I would not call myself a Latin scholar.        The Convener: Would members like to vote on this issue? Ian Jenkins: Margo MacDonald and Murdo Fraser are applying a rule of thumb that does not apply to the Latin word "sederunt", which is pronounced with the stress on the middle syllable.        Colin Campbell: "Sederunt" means "they who are seated". Ian Jenkins: In a polysyllabic word, the accent should be on the antepenultimate syllable.      Colin Campbell: That should get in a column somewhere. Murdo Fraser: So the word should be pronounced "sederunt", with the stress on the first syllable.       Ian Jenkins: No-because it is Latin, it should be pronounced "sederunt", with the stress on the second syllable.        The Convener: No points arise in relation to the Act of Sederunt (Summary Applications, Statutory Applications and Appeals etc Rules) Amendment (Detention and Forfeiture of Terrorist Cash) 2002 (SSI 2002/129).

Committee witness: The Amsterdam treaty is a bit like the book of Deuteronomy: we all know that it is there; very few people have read it from end to end; some bits of it are probably controversial nowadays; and very, very few people are expert on it.

Kenny MacAskill: We are dealing with how to stop people with personalities getting out of Carstairs.

Mr McAveety: Hindsight, as the everybody clich� says, is an exact science.

The Convener: We will now have a five-minute, literally a five-minute, and it will be a strict five-minute comfort break. We will start again at 11:25. 11:17 Meeting adjourned, 11:27 On resuming-

John Munro: Is this not working?        Rhoda Grant: Pull it towards you.

Sir Robert Smith: The minister got across an important message about the accepted, the crucial message of the usefulness of smoke alarms. It is crucial, again, to try and avoid the false alarms that come from bad installation and it is very important that, certainly from my personal experience of rescuing an old lady, not from a fire, but from her smoke alarm going off because she was boiling a fish in a bag and she could not control it and she was saying "Could you get this thing off?" as I was walking past her door.     Members: Is that how you got elected?

Helen Eadie: . . . children of all races and religions will come to accept and understand that we believe in them, and that we value them as the flowers of our future . . .

Dorothy-Grace Elder: They are the little brothers and sisters of that great ghost army.

Rhona Brankin: Our traditions are the essential fibres that we are all going to weave within the tapestry of Scotland's new millennium.

Lewis Macdonald: I welcome the steps that the minister will take to put the Scottish arm in place.

Nora Radcliffe: As equal opportunities spokesman . . .

Committee witness: If Tessa Jackson feels that she is the new boy on the block, I am not quite sure what I am . . . my one regret is that I am an accountant.

Alex Johnstone: If Richard Lochhead wants to raise anything, he can put his hand up now.

Andy Kerr: . . . Westminster, where things are put into committees and disappear . . .

Margaret Smith: It is a No 1 cause of preventative thing that we can put in terms of public health.

John Swinney: It is like wallpaper: it is fundamental to what you look at on the wall.

Andrew Wilson: You take the option which is to go "We'll deliver jam today, take your votes tomorrow and disappear over the horizon once the costs come home to bear."

Fiona McLeod: The end of the year is looming and that would have been the time for Scotland to set off into the next century.

Andy Kerr: Thank you, Rodney, for the-I mean Sarah-for your statement.

Andy Kerr: With respect to Murray Tosh, we can suck it and see.

Tavish Scott: No, Mr Tosh has already had one go; he has been up and down faster than a number of things I could mention.

Bill Aitken: Frankly, there is much in the ministerial statement that is to be welcomed, but it is shortly sad on detail.       Margaret Smith: . . .we still have to note a sound of caution. Committee witness: . . . all of those problems could be addressed before these issues are licensed-sorry, before these licences are issued.

Mike Rumbles: After our previous meeting, representations were made to me that it was difficult for the press and the public to follow what was happening in our discussions.

David Mundell: When people do as the very people you are mentioning live with no reality and there is still no reality after two years of the Labour Government of alternative transport to the car.

John Swinney: There will obviously be times when I perform as a party-political animal.

John Home Robertson: . . . Scotland has the lion's share of fishing interests.

Annabel Goldie: I want to defend my leader, Mr McLetchie, against Mr Gorrie-he is just a lamb, Mr Gorrie, just a lamb. Beside him and behind him are other lambs.

Tricia Marwick: . . . subsection 44 (2) would allow doctors to withdraw nutrition and hydration. That would possibly bring about the death of patients who are not dying.

Ian Jenkins: Phil Gallie's amendment does not just add on something to the thing, it cuts out stuff which you are now saying is right enough.

Phil Gallie: Can I just clarify-        The Deputy Presiding Officer: The member has finished, Mr Gallie. Please sit down.      Phil Gallie: I was robbed.

Committee witness: For someone to be compensated for the loss of an income requires the payment of a lump sum. We agree that you cannot insist on that lump sum being paid in one go.

Keith Raffan: I know that John is the reporter on housing issues and Karen is the reporter on the voluntary sector, but I do not know if anyone is on drugs.

Colin Campbell: . . . women are entitled to pensions at 60 and men at 65.

David Davidson: Ministers ... should put the money into earlier intervention so that, for example, children who are deaf are identified before they go to school and can be given opportunities to listen and learn.

Michael Russell: Sam, I understand that you do not want to dance on the tripartite organisation, but . . . Can you reassure those 60,000 or 70,000 teachers that-even if you are not dancing-you will sit it out like a wallflower prepared with your wallet to help out if things get difficult?       Sam Galbraith: What a splendid description.

Jamie Stone: If I were to mention culture at the Lairg sheep sales or in a queue for fish and chips, a lot of people would think that I am talking about blokes in tights prancing about on the stage.

Johann Lamont: We can have a debate, but it is highly dubious whether every word that we say is worth recording.

Committee witness: One always has some reservations about looking backwards and relying on building a base on what has gone before without considering what has happened in the future.

Margaret Smith: That is the point at which at which I become extremely annoying.

Helen Eadie: Who knows, perhaps he is a distant relation of mine, as my middle name is Helen Stirling Eadie.

Jamie Stone: Indeed, the improved reception in parts of Sutherland has been well received locally.

Committee witness: We experienced several structural problems after the fall of the Berlin wall.

Dorothy-Grace Elder: I wanted to mention something about health promotion, but I also wanted to come in on rurality-which is a dreadful word. We mean rural areas. Let us try to use English occasionally.

Committee witness: There are ways to skin the cat without killing it.

Committee witness: She worked as an assistant to my PA. I can keep two people going full time. Adam Ingram: I can believe it.

Bruce Crawford: In the paper that is before us today-no, we do not have a paper today, do we?

Committee witness: England is a disaster. It has proven that such links are dead-it is a bomb with a long fuse that is going to go phut. Bang, bang    Richard Simpson: . . . or can the proxy simply say, "Bang-that's it".   Margaret Smith: No-they can say, "Bang".

Johann Lamont: . . . we are a long way down the road from where some of us were a long time ago.

Margaret Smith: We have to cut through this gobbledegook.

Ian Jenkins: I had a pal who, in current parlance, was digitally challenged-he had one finger missing on his left hand.

Committee witness: One cannot have one's cake, eat it and regurgitate it for breakfast.

Nora Radcliffe: At the previous committee meeting, we said that we would like copies of the report of . . . the report with the very long title in the third paragraph that I won't bother reading out.

Dorothy-Grace Elder: We do not want the waffle to continue. You need to pull her up on that-ask her for short answers-otherwise we will get nowhere. We will nag at you, convener-perhaps unfairly-because you are another waffle victim.

Scott Barrie: Disproportionately looked after children are more likely to be excluded from school.

Committee witness: That's something that needs to be looked at badly.

Committee witness: The financial input should not be anything like as enormous as the cost of taking everybody through to Ninewells, having to conduct an extension of the service there, and putting bread-and-butter people into high-tech beds.

Tommy Sheridan: Will the minister give way? Sorry, I mean the member.   Annabel Goldie: Married one week, promoted the next. Heady stuff, Mr Sheridan. Tommy Sheridan: I thought that flattery might help my chances of being allowed to intervene.

Alex Neil: Will the member give way?    Annabel Goldie: I have a lot to get through and I want to make progress.        Tommy Sheridan: You didn't flatter her enough, Alex.

Annabel Goldie: He has tried in the past, but to no avail.      Kenneth Gibson: Would the member give way? I note that she is wearing a very beautiful jacket. Annabel Goldie: I cannot be seen to be bought by anyone. Sit down, Mr Gibson.

Committee witness: I was head of a two-teacher rural school that was closed.

David Davidson: I do not want to get into the history of the past.

Winnie Ewing: Anyone interested in tracing their family can press a big computer and get the answer.

Phil Gallie: I think that the minister is taking further advice.        Iain Gray: Having two brains is quite helpful, because I can stall, but still give the answer. Phil Gallie: Sometimes people say that they wish I had one brain, never mind two, but that is another issue.

Christine Grahame: Can I just say that Marks and Spencer-for whom I hold no special brief-has been lambasted for a similar matter. Oh dear, I shouldn't have said that.

Ben: What was the fourth treatment that . . .   Margaret: The fourth treatment was sterilisation. (Pause.)      Ben: So he covers . . . (Pause.)        Margaret: Yes, he covers the . . . He covers the three... (Inordinately long pause.)      Ben: So . . . are we going to insert . . . something along the lines of the Executive's fourth . . . (Pause.)

Elaine Smith: I, for example, do not want to see a (Parliament) building with no cr�che facilities. Such facilities would be not only for the benefit of MSPs and staff, but for all Scotland's people.

Kenneth Gibson: I am just looking through the Official Report. I do not see that that decision was recorded.    The Convener: It is there, but you should not be looking through the Official Report at this time.      Colin Campbell: You should have read it before. Kenneth Gibson: Consider my bottom spanked.

The Convener: Ken, do you wish to say something?        Kenneth Macintosh: Sorry, Mike. I was only waving my arms around.       The Convener: It is nice to know that you are awake.

Committee witness: It was only when we jumped up and down on the end of a telephone that we got them.

Sarah Boyack: The fluctuation in the costs of recycled materials goes up and down.

Helen Eadie: Measured on the Richter scale of feelings of anger, when it comes to writing the sort of letters that I have received, I think that anger would qualify for going right off the Richter scale.

John Home Robertson: I agree with Alex Fergusson. This is embarrassing; we are going to have a love-in here if we are not careful.      Alex Fergusson (hastily): Don't panic.

Committee witness: Our view is that a crisis service should be open to someone who is experiencing a crisis.

Mike Rumbles: Planning is a major issue. Your consultation document shows that it is the third most important issue of all, way above the other ones.

Keith Harding: If you take the increases in rateable value, which come to some �23 million, less the three which go down on the water boards, which brings it down to 20, which is 10, 10 at roughly, which brings it down to 20-sorry-10 at roughly 50 pence in the pound, no it's not, I know it's roughly 45 point something but that's roughly �10 million in rates.        Jack McConnell: That would not be my calculation.

Michael Russell: I must admit that the sight of Mr Galbraith blowing kisses at me is one of the most frightening things I have ever seen-I hope that it was picked up by the cameras. Perhaps it happened because I no longer have a beard-twice in one day, too; I will not take my eyes off him.

Sarah Boyack: Those projects are on the ground, and it is waste collection on the ground that goes towards recycling.

Janis Hughes: . . . where prior notification in advance was given.

Nicol Stephen: In the Scotland of tomorrow, there will be new products and services, which will literally suck consumers off the streets into shops or onto the internet to buy them.

Sylvia Jackson: In the issues that have actually been raised here today I'd like to highlight some of them, and particularly from the perspective of my constituents, who are in Stirling, which, like Jackie Baillie, will make up quite a considerable part of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs park area.

Alex Johnstone: It is a glowing indictment of a tiny school that operates with two composite classes that it can attract pupils who live a considerable distance away.

John McAllion: People are concerned that the ball-game is changing midstream . . .

Christine Grahame: My third question brings us back to the bunk-beds. How long have you been a prison officer?

Ross Finnie: The sheep industry produces four times the pigmeat that we consume.

Ben Wallace: I wondered if Sylvia would be willing to consider putting that as part of your impact, while I will do it from an enlargement view, obviously under my project, about whether that, the actual plan or practical policy making is sustainable within Scotland if that, you know, in competitiveness or sustainability with the other countries.    The Convener: That was a point very well made, Ben.

The Convener: The question is, that section 27 be agreed to. Gordon, do you wish to restate your general point at this stage?   Gordon Jackson: No. No. Tired. Tired.

Fiona McLeod: I would like to conclude by urging urgency-urgency is what is behind this.

Kenny Gibson: What about globally across the rest of Scotland?

Cathy Peattie: If you say to a child that a good family is a married family man and mum, dad, the dog and half a brother or sister-that is traditional family-is that the message that we want to give to children?

Scott Barrie: The fact that that happens disrupts their education, which contributes to the fact that their education is disrupted.

Alex Fergusson: The Government has given the go-ahead to the erection of one pylon, which will vary in height between 90 and 130 feet.

Christine Grahame: . . . It is the beginning of the morning and my head is mince. [Laughter.]

Robert Brown: Glasgow is the rock and the hard place for the Scottish Executive.

Dorothy-Grace Elder: We have to get down to specifics-how much more will they need for x, y and z, for example?

John McAllion: No, I am a Dundee politician. If Phil Gallie wants to debate this outside the committee I would be delighted to oblige.

Bruce Crawford: I am struggling with some of this and simplification is not the answer for me-sorry, simplification is the answer for me.

Duncan Hamilton: It would have been useful to have information in advance of this morning's meeting, because I have to read a report and a press release and listen all at the same time.

Annabel Goldie: I do not want to create additional ministers-good heavens, they are breeding like chickens as far as I can see. I want to make improvements in the ministerial structure.       Donald Dewar: Rabbits. Annabel Goldie: Rabbits. They are breeding like rabbits.

Winnie Ewing: . . . the Mallaig people . . . have yet a thriving, prosperous town. Its middle name should be Enterprise.

Committee witness: We worked well with the social work team until reorganisation meant that they left the health centre, much to the demise of our patients.

Donald Gorrie: We can argue about the figure, but undoubtedly there is a percentage of people in any society who will cheat, lie, rob and so on.        Dorothy-Grace Elder: They are all in politics. Donald Gorrie: They are not all in politics, but politics has its fair share.

Michael Matheson: As you will be aware, the Executive, in giving their evidence-if you have had a chance to look at it--indicated that there will be some 500 cases which will have to be reviewed by judges who are presently mandatory life prisoners.

Donald Gorrie: I am an anti-steamroller person and, as the proposals potentially favour the steamroller, I am against them.

Lyndsay McIntosh: I would urge anybody who hasn't partaken before to get involved with it.

Dorothy-Grace Elder: I am glad that you raised that, Irene. I recall that, a couple of years ago, President Clinton was unable to visit Virginia for political reasons, because he was anti-smoking. If we take the example of California-although we do not want to do so on many loopy things-       Ben Wallace: Dorothy, are you from California? The Convener: Let us not go into that.

Fiona Hyslop: We want to move to an automated system, but not one that is compulsory and not before the Post Office is ready to deliver it.

Jamie McGrigor: Is the member aware of the tragic circumstances that are faced by the farmers of Islay, where the creamery has closed? Those farmers have no means of selling their milk, other than by transporting it off the island. Is he also aware that Islay cheese is famous throughout the world not only for being delicious, but for its Viagra-like qualities?      Jamie Stone rose-

Committee witness: My parents had been 250 years on the farm at that time.

Brian Fitzpatrick: I firmly subscribe to the notion that two and two can equal five.

Alex Fergusson: As so often happens, emotive words and aims that are powerful tools in an election campaign become bogged down in the cold light of day when reality begins to bite.

Committee witness: . . . there is no one horse fits every argument here . . .

Lyndsay McIntosh: In my day, I sat on a case that went to trial, in which a lady had been kicked severely. She was four months pregnant by two women.

Margaret Smith: I have been through the community care inquiry with the Health and Community Care Committee, and one of the things to come out of that inquiry was the important role that housing plays in keeping people in their homes.

Robert Brown: In a consumerist age, people do not expect to be ill or to die without there being a remedy for it.

Ross Finnie: I can well understand the desire of Rhoda Grant to have some access to the food chain.

Cathy Peattie: I accept your recommendation. The committee might want to return to the issue of school meals in the wider context of their nutritional value and the nutrition of young people. I look forward to the feedback from the minister.

Winnie Ewing: A victim of a homicide should also have the right to receive a transcript of the trial without incurring enormous cost.

Malcolm Chisholm: Far be it from me to appear to be bound by Westminster tradition; I would be horrified at the very thought . . . that definition is there to explain the reference to personal care in clause 2 section 2.

Paul Martin: I have found from local experience that seeking verbal comments-negative or positive-are very helpful in a verbal sense by way of telephone contact.

Allan Wilson: The problem arises from discarded chip pokes, McDonald's cartons and so on, which have become so much a part of our staple diet that they are now part of the seagull's diet.

Elaine Thomson: The Rowett Research Institute is currently carrying out crucial work on obesity, which is a growing threat to people's health.

Bill Aitken: Should a commissioner be speaking up for youngsters whose children are well able to speak up for that child himself?

Donald Gorrie: Of all the angels-dancing-on-the-point-of-a-pin issues . . .

Karen Gillon: We need to ensure that ordinary fans who go to watch Scotland week in, year out.

Committee witness: The issue of triviality is an important one.

Mike Rumbles: Is this indicative of this or is it this?

2. David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con): To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues he will raise. (S1F-1223)      The First Minister (Henry McLeish): I last met the Prime Minister on 1 September.

I say these as words, Sir David, merely because they are factual.

It is simply not acceptable for a party such as the SNP to knee-jerk its way to a serious issue by constantly ruling out serious debate on serious issues.

We have to ensure that in the Scotland of the future-and the future always starts today-they are properly and effectively dealt with.

While that will not be easy, Sarah Boyack, the Executive and, I hope, the whole Parliament will work towards not the political end that John McAllion suggests

but clearly the end of satisfaction for the consumer, who have been badly treated in recent weeks and months.

We have the skills, the history and the sentiment, and we will do that in an important way.

My review of Scottish Enterprise is taking place, which, in a sense, is about Scottish Enterprise . . .

What this is doing is saying to people, and it's in St Andrews, is saying to people that this is here.

I do not think that what I am suggesting this morning is any kind of rocket fuel.

We are all concerned about the confusion between donor retention and donor donation.

At present, a record level of investment applies to a neglected service. When we publish the health plan on 14 December, it will show that there is only one party in this coalition-along with the Liberal Democrats-[Laughter.]-that wants to ensure that the NHS will provide the service that the Scottish people want. I am convinced that we shall do it. We shall.