:: What is Goth? ::

:: This page is just my opinion. Unlike many other web pages posing about what is or isn't Goth I will state this is my personal opinion as a Goth. Goth is my life based on over 25 years living in the Goth subculture. :: 

:: "Goth" web sites and other started to post about Goth due to the aftermath of the student and staff murders at Columbine high school in Littleton CO in 1999. Fact, the kids who were the shooters were not Goth. If you think they were you have no clue what Goth is. The media and others just looking for a scapegoat were quick to label the kids who committed this crime as "Goth" yet they had no clue what Goths was. The media and others who applied this label, still today, have no clue what Goth is about. ::

   What is Goth?  .......not an easy question for anyone to answer since any answer would just be that person's opinion. To ask the question 'what is' about any scene can't truly be answered. What is a hippie, a jock, a nerd, or a Christian? Yes there are the stereo types about each you can point to, but everyone asked will have a different point of view. Not just about Goths, Christians will even differ in opinion as to what makes a good Christian. Some refer to Goth as a subculture, some as a fad, and others as a group of people that listen to a cretin type of music. There is no one specific thing that defines what the Goth scene is or what you need to do or be to fit in. There is the unofficial 'uniform' of black clothing. The Goth scene is comprised of people with different musical tastes, fashion, and have different views. Add to this that the Goth scene is changing, growing, and isn't the same now as it was in the beginning. Originally the Goth scene was free of prejudice, clicks, judgments, and popularity hang-ups.

   So what is Goth? Well each Goth has a view and opinion on this topic and each is based on personal views. I have my view of Goth based on 25+ years of people calling me a Goth. I avoid an exact definition because to do so would be wrong on my part. One can see my views on what is Goth and what isn't Goth. The early Goth bands didn't' call themselves Goth, the label was applied to them by the media and others such as the label was applied to the early Goths them selves. Those of us who were there in the beginning just accepted the label of Goth and went with it, making it our own. Just because someone reads the bible and claims to be a good person, we all know where that can lead, remember the poison Kool-aid? Gee forgot about killer Kool-aid? ....Christian "Cults" have killed far more in the name of their god than any other group in the world. The largest massacre was cared out by "Christians" in Jonestown, Guyana. 

November 18, 1978 Congressman Leo J. Ryan and four members of his party were shot and killed as they attempted to board a plane at Port Kaituma airstrip. This was shortly followed by the announcement that 408 American citizens had committed suicide at a communal village they had built in the jungle in Northwest Guyana. This community, known as “Jonestown” was the site of a large Christian cult. Jonestown was the home to “The People’s Temple” which was led by the Reverend Jim Jones. It would later be learned that 913 of the 1100 people believed to have been at “Jonestown” at the time, had died in a mass suicide. This included children and infants. Those who would not drink the poisoned Kool-aid were shot. This was a "Christian based cult". 

:: The Stereotype

   There are many stereotypes about Goths and the Goth scene that exist today. Everyone has their own opinion about 'what is Goth'. Thanks to the media and other factors Goths get a bad reputation with some. You have the close-minded religious people who think anyone Goth is in a cult and worships satin. There is the main image that all Goths only dress completely in black clothing. Some think Goths are suicidal, depressed, and obsessed with death. Then there are those who think Goths believe they are Vampires and drink blood. Some of the young kids think vanity is important to many Goths. Also some say Goths think that they are dead or that sunlight will make them melt. Well none of those statements are true. An no, the kids who committed the Columbine high school massacre were not Goth. They were just some kids who were looking to gain attention and commit the biggest massacre in history. The media only labeled them "Goth" due to black trench coats and some CD's of bands that were not even "Goth". Black trench coats has nothing to do with being "Goth". Yes, some do wear them, but mostly those who only claimed to be Goth after the Columbine high school massacre to gain attention.

   Goths are not freaks and freaks are not Goth. Geeks and Goths are not the same. Goths are not intolerant and most Goths don't pass judgment on others. Goths are not Gay, but there are Gay Goths as there are gay Christians. Some freaks, geeks, and others follow around in the Goth scene as most Goths don't bully them or bother them as other groups do. I have had friends who are not Goth but hang in the Goth scene because of the tolerance the Goths provide others. Some Goth nights are held in Gay owned clubs as Goths are tolerant of others and their lifestyle choice. This doesn't say that all Goths are bisexual or anything the intolerant people fear. As with every other group of humans, Goths are a diverse group. Goth is made up of individuals, each using their own free will and their own sense of who they are. Most Goths are very artistic, but even that isn't something you need to be Goth. Original Goths were very creative since we couldn't buy our fashion, we had to create it. Note, Hot Topic is owned by the Gap. Shopping at Hot Topic make you a trend follower, not Goth. But just because one does or doesn't shop at this or that shop doesn't make one Goth or not. 

   There is the stereotype Goths always wear a lot of weird or scary makeup. Again this isn't true, some Goths wear makeup, some Goths don't . Remember that Goths are individuals and all exercise their own judgment and free will on how they look. Sure some Goths think makeup is pretty cool and other Goths never use it. The makeup was born out of Robert Smith and Siouxsie and others. Some Goths use makeup as they like that look. Other Goths are pale and don't need to, and others still just don't like makeup. So let's just remember stereotypes are foolish and used by foolish people to spread intolerance. Most of the intolerance is fueled by ignorance and supported by those who are at fault for something but looking to pass the blame off on an easy target. 

:: A review ::
~ Goths only wear black = False ~ It is just the color of choice for most
~ Goths all wear Makeup = False ~ Some do, some don't.
~ Goths are all just teenagers = False ~ This thing called Goth is well over 25 years old.
~ Goth is a cult = False ~ See the definition of a cult. Read a dictionary, learn something.
~ Goths worship the devil = False ~ As for me the devil is a Christian idol, I don't believe in anything Christian.
~ Goths think they are Vampires = False ~ Ok, so we are and the Bible was faked in 1407 by Vampires.
~ Goths drink blood = False ~ however Christian's do speak of drinking the blood of their god in their cult.
~ Goths fear light = False ~ There are Goth surfers, Goths do go to the beach, and most have real day jobs.
~ Goths are suicidal = False ~ I have been Goth 25 years and I am still here.
~ Goths all have piercings & tattoos = False
~ Goths are depressed = False
~ Only Goth teens do drugs = False ~ There is no data to support Goths use more drugs than other teens in other social groups.
~ Only Goth teens kill = False ~ There is no data to support Goth teens killed any more than jock teens or any other teen group.
~ Goths can't be Christians = False ~ Ok so I am not Christian but I know Christian Goths, Jewish Goths, and others.
~ Goths want to Die (Like death) = False ~ death just doesn't scare us.
~ Goths rob graves = False ~ sounds like a need idea.........
~ Goths are into bizarre sexual activities = False ~ Who was it that got into trouble for playing with the alter boy's?>
~ Goths are gay or bisexual = False ~ Some are, some are not, Goth has nothing to do with it.
~ Marilyn Manson is Goth = False ~ If you think he is you haven't a clue what Goth is or isn't.
~ You or your kid has a Marilyn Manson CD so must be Goth = False
~ Just because your teen is dressed all in black they are Goth = False
~ Most who fear Goths have real facts to base this fear on = False

:: History of Goth

   The Goth scene of today started in the late 70's and early 80's, growing out of the punk subculture. The phrase Goth as applied to the music in 1978/79 is said to have been coined by a couple of different people. One school of thought was the band manager of Joy Division, Anthony H. Wilson, when he described the band as 'Gothic compared with the pop mainstream'. Others note February 1981 when Abbo from UK Decay tagged the new musical movement "gothic". Others point to someone who was describing the group of people who attended the night club "The Bat Cave". Others note Andi, the lead singer with Sex Gang Children for the term Goth, as he was tagged "Count Visigoth" and his followers tagged "Goths" by Ian Astbury from Southern Death Cult. Who ever was the first is not set in stone since the term was tossed around for a while. The British music press extended the term to the music due the association with the architecture and the literature.  All refer to a point in 1978/79 when a number of punk bands in the late began taking on a more stark, somber, and ethereal direction to their sound. All note that others were applying the term, us Goths just sort of adopted it somewhere along the way. So who was the first to use the term? Is it really that important?

   So finally the term was applied to the people who listened to the music, not because of any properties they had, but just out of association. Whatever it's worth, this is the term we're stuck with. Goth has grown from its meager beginnings and has become its own subculture. The clothing and hairstyles have changed a bit since the 'big hair' of the 80's. Originally the Gothic look came from Siouxsie, Robert Smith, and Bauhaus. Joy Division and Bauhaus helped to establish the Gothic image as dark, evil, and even depressing. From the beginning Goth and Industrial music have sort of fit together in a strange way. Yet Goth is not Industrial and Goth isn't 1980's pop music either. Yes, some older Goths also enjoy other 80's music as well. However a DJ dressed in black, playing pop 1980's music, doesn't make it a Goth event. Goth isn't 80's pop, some who say they are Goth or market a night at some tiny bar playing 1980's music is not Goth. I do like a lot of 1980's pop and electronic sounds, but I listen to a mix of Goth and Industrial bands myself.

First 'Goth" bands ~ Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus and UK Decay.

• The first Banshees album - The Scream - November 1978
• The first Joy Division album - Unknown Pleasures - June 1979
• The first Bauhaus album - Bela Lugosi's Dead - September 1979

~ Why be Goth you ask?

   Some seem to fall into the Goth scene because they don't fit into 'normal' society for one reason or another. You can't just become Goth, though today some seem to feel they can. As Goth is becoming more accepted and mass marked some do dress and try to just 'buy' their way into the Goth culture. So today some do fall into the Goth scene as a fad or trend, but they are not truly Goth. Those Goths who are not following a trend or just trying to shock those around them are just trying to live their lives as they see fit. This doesn't always fit in with how most people are told to live. Parent's, the media and society as a whole try to make everyone fit into their neat little picture. So some Goths are free thinkers, open minded, people who don't just accept the prescribed rules of society because they're told. Most Goths are not depressed, suicidal, anti-social, or worshippers of satin. Originally Goths were outcasts, rejected, and not included by others. Because of this rejection, Goths were more open to associate with other free thinkers. The main part about being Goth is to be an individual so there isn't really a right or a wrong way to be Goth. Though most Goths are always Goth, they don't change to fit in, they don't just dress that way just for the club. A true Goth might hide it a bit to hold down a job but there is always something about them that is Goth.

    Those who are not Goth but are trying to claim to be Goth are part of the media's misconception of the Goth culture. Most who try to become Goth, fit in to be cool, or try Goth out will say they are Goth but in truth it is just a trend. A true Goth is more than a look, it isn't just to shock, and it is a life long lifestyle not just a high school or college fad. Most Goths know Marilyn Manson and other icons are not Goth. The media and people like Brian Warner of Marilyn Manson used elements of the 'Goth look' to shock and gain attention. From the name Brian Warner uses and all the crap he pulls is just to shock and sell records. Everything about Brian Warner and Marilyn Manson is just fake, and he enjoys making people believe in this crap. This is how he sells his crap that wouldn't have sold if parents and the media didn't make so much noise about him. Brian Warner of Marylyn Manson was from Ohio and didn't get into music until 1998. If it wasn't for Nine Inch Nails in 1993, he would still be an unknown in Florida. Note Nine Inch Nails is not Goth.

~ Goth Today?

   Movies such as The Matrix, The Crow, and bands such as Marilyn Manson have taken Goth from an underground subculture to a marketable trend. Yet these movies and Marilyn Manson are not Goth them self, they all borrow part of their image from Goth. As Hollywood continues to make more 'dark' movies Goth has even turned into a bit of a fashion trend for some. Making way for the fashions to be marketed by The Gap in their shop called Hot Topic. Hot Topic is not a Goth shop. Shopping at Hot Topic does not make your teen a Goth. Most know Hot Topic was created by looking at well known and successful 'Punk" shops like Zipperheads in Philadelphia, PA. In 1980 Zipperheads opened up on South Street and later became well known through the song "Punk Rock Girl" and it's video that was played on MTV back when MTV actually played music videos. All of this attention started bringing more people to the Punk / Gothic subculture. Now there is a gothic community in almost every major city around the world. Goth went from the rejected outcasts to something even popular kids are ok with being a part of. Some even dress up 'Goth' once a week just to go to the clubs and feel 'cool'. 

   This has led to there being clicks and popularity levels that Goth originally didn't support. Another new thing to come to the Goth scene is vanity. As with Punk that Goth came from, most made their look, you couldn't buy it. So Now the younger Goths are dividing and separating even among them selves. For some Goth is just becoming another click with it's own popularity contest, sub names and cool & not cool. There are many Goths today that have been in the scene since the beginning and are still active even now that they are in their late 30's and early 40's. There are Goths who now sub-divide. You have Goths, Industrial-Goths, Cyber-Goths, Glam Goths, Vampire Goths, Fetish Goths, Weekend Goths, Punk Goths, Metal-Goths, and others. Young Goths and older Goths in some areas don't mix. The one thing that is still the same is some people still fear Goths. 

> Note: Today Bondage and Goth seem to go hand in hand. Goth is not bondage and bondage is not Goth. Yes some Goths dress like it, some do it, but it isn't Goth. Bondage was around long before and is also enjoyed by adults who are not Goth. 

:: Some Misguided fears of Goths  

   The media only takes note of Goth or the "Gothic" subculture, specifically due to the death of a teen or a killing by a teen. Most of the time this is a misuse of the term Goth by the media as the teen in question wasn't even Goth or Gothic to begin with. Just because a teen is dressed in black doesn't make them Goth. The media has only truly noticed the Gothic subculture due to the band Marylyn Manson who is not Goth. If you feel Marylyn Manson is Goth you need to rethink what you know about Goths or being Goth. The Media in 1999 contributed the Columbine high school in Littleton CO to the Goth subculture based on bad information. This media attention was directed on Goths by people who had no clue what Goth was. They thought just because the kids were into wearing black trench coats they were Goth. Black trench coats were never a 'sign' or part of being Goth. Yes, after this some kids looking to gain attention got black trench coats and started saying they were Goths. The way the media ran their story it looked as if they never bothered to ask anyone from the Goth community about Goth. They just went with their idea based on stereotypes, not facts. 

   Most parents and the media see it as teens getting involved with some sort of a  cult. Goth is not a cult, if you think that I have a bridge to sell you, cheap. Goths drink blood? Not true, some kids that are Goth might, some kids who are not Goth might as well, drinking blood has nothing to do with being Goth. However Christians do speak of drinking blood just about every Sunday. Some parents claim they have found remnants of satanic rituals done in their kids rooms and blame it on Goth. Burning candles and incense is not a satanic ritual and also isn't exclusive to being Goth. Also Goth has no rituals or anything like it, if you think it does your wrong. If you look at most who claim Goth is a cult you will often find some uptight person with some screwed up religious views. Yes you will find some person who claims to be Goth and claims that Goth is all the bad things I say it is not. However I am sure they aren't really Goth and are just doing and saying those things to gain attention. Doing shocking and other stupid and criminal acts just to gain attention also isn't just a Goth thing. 

   The Media & parents blame Goth when teens lose interest in school and become involved in alcohol and drugs. If you think losing interest and drugs are exclusive of being Goth where were you in the 1950's? 1960's? 1970's? or 1980's? Drug use has nothing to do with being Goth, fact most Goths don't use drugs and some don't even drink alcohol (also a drug). Goths don't use drugs or alcohol more than any other group of teens or adults. The parents and media are often only looking for a scapegoat, a way to feel it is not their fault, pass the blame for their child's mistakes to others. You can't blame the entire subculture of Goth for the actions of a few screwed-up, teen-age drug addicts or some kid with major psychological problems. Also most kids the media and parents claim to have fallen into Goth are not Goth at all. Goth kids have not committed more killings and murder than any other group of teens. Fact is most crime committed by teens is done so by the clean-cut kid, the boy or girl next door. Most true Goths have other ways of venting and don't kill others. If they do it has nothing to do with their being Goth.

   Some of the crime blamed on Goths and the Gothic subculture is just random crime, having nothing to do with Goth. Ozzy bit the head off some animal, he isn't Goth and the media blamed that on a cult, drugs and other. You can find kids who dress in Gap cloths or hippies who use drugs, murder, and burn candles. In the 1960's parents put the blame for problems on the hippies as they were the subculture that stood out. Now as people are starting to notice Goths we are the group that stands out and are the target. Goth has been around since 1978/79, the media didn't notice us much until about 1999. Goths stand out, we make a nice easy target so we are easy to pin the blame on. Most true Goths don't stand out for attention, that just sort of happens due to how we like to dress. The truth is the kids committing suicide or shooting up a school are the end result of poor parenting resulting in unstable teen who lacks the tools and experience to think their problems through.

   Tattoos & body piercings are not Goth. I am Goth, have been for 25+ years and I have zero tattoos and zero piercings. Some Goths like them, some do not, tattoos and piercings are a personal thing and have nothing to do with being Goth. If you are a parent trying to blame Goth for your teen getting a tattoo or piercing your just stupid. Most parents who blame Goth for most things are just silly and very stupid people that look to blame everything on others rather than face the fact they are just bad parents who screwed their kid up. So if your teen has killed, drank blood, shot up the local high school or other. That has nothing to do with the Gothic subculture it has to do with your poor skills as a parent. As for parents who wish to dismiss my opinion, I have twelve years first hand experience as a single parent. My kids are well adjusted, do well in school and can find other ways to think through and deal with their problems. All normal teens start to think for them selves. As a parent it is your job to teach your child and equip then with the skills needed in life. A child today doesn't just turn into an adult at 18, they need to learn, just like anything else through trial and error. Well adjusted teens most often have parents that gave them the room to grow and the skills to chose and time to try it out. 

   Most who are passing the misguided fears of Goths & the Goth subculture claim to be Christians. Remember the Jonestown massacre, in which 913 men, women and children died in the worst mass murder-suicide in recent history. On November 18, 1978 Jones' followers were ordered or forced to drink cyanide-laced punch. The 227 children in the "Peoples Temple" were poisoned first. Babies were killed by squirting the poison in their mouths by followers of this 'Christian Group'. This massacre was ordered by a person who claimed to be a Christian, carried out by his 'Christian' followers, not some Goth group. For every poor action anyone can show a real Goth, or even someone thought to be Goth by mistake did, I can show hundreds of thousands of times where "religion" & people claiming to be Christian have killed & massacred. Thanks to Christians and their leaders who came to "America" for freedom & tolerance the settlers were allowed to justify the massacre of millions of Native Americans. 

    I remember the Jonestown massacre, I watched it on the news in 1978 and read it in the papers. I also remember the sex scandals of the Chaotic Church, something many have joked about for years, came to light as truth. I don't post a page that claims all Christians are evil, that they all go around molesting little boys and girls, that every church will try to feed you poisoned Kool-aid, or that they are just out to take your money. In the beginning Christians were part of a cult that the followers had to hide or be killed by the Romans. So lets just take a look at some of the definition of the word 'CULT' ::

~""In modern general usage a cult is a religious group that follows a living leader who promotes new and unorthodox doctrines and practices, normally a small fringe group centered around a single charismatic individual who uses unethical forms of persuasion to manipulate followers. Usually they conduct their operations in secrecy."" (In his day Jesus was such a man. he was Jewish.)

~""A system of religious belief and its followers."" (The Gothic subculture is not a religion and doesn't have set beliefs.)

~""A system of religious beliefs and rituals."" (The Gothic subculture is not a religion and doesn't have set beliefs.)

~""By its primary dictionary definition, the term cult just means a system of religious beliefs or rituals. It is based on a farming term in Latin meaning cultivation. Sociologists and anthropologists sometimes use the term cult to describe religious structure or belief patterns with meanings (usually non-pejorative) unique to their disciplines."" (The Gothic subculture is not a religion and doesn't have set rituals.)

~""The formal organization and practice of worship, usually associated with a sanctuary and involving a regular cycle of sacrifices, prayers, and hymns under the direction of priests and other leaders; when used in biblical studies the term is descriptive and does not imply anything dark, devilish, false, or unseemly, as is often the case in modern uses of the term."" (The Gothic subculture is not an organized religion or a religion of any sort. Goths do not have set beliefs, rituals, leaders, or other elements of such.)

~""A religious group that follows a particular theological system. In the context of Christianity it is a group that uses the Bible but distorts the doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently to cause salvation to be unattainable. A few examples of cults are Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Christadelphians, Unity, Religious Science, TheWay International, and the Moonies.""  (The Gothic subculture is not an organized religion or a religion of any sort. Goths do not have set beliefs, rituals, leaders, or other elements of such. Jehovah's Witnesses & Christian Science followers note: I see all organized religion as a cult. This 'definition' was taken from a online dictionary in 1999 that isn't on the web in 2005)

  Christians once let others know they were a Christian by drawing a fish in the sand with their foot. They had to hide or the Romans would feed them to the lions. The Jewish leaders of the time were also not very happy with the Christians for changing their religion. Note if you are a Christian your just a Jew who's Messiah has come, the rest of the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah to come. (Yes, that is just a simple, short answer, I know there is more but this is not about that.) So the first Christians originally followed a Jewish carpenter who was promoting new and unorthodox ideas, a cult. By definition Christianity is a cult that has just out lived it's leader and gained in popularity. As there are different Christian groups there are different Goth groups. You have good and bad Christians as there are good and bad Goths. The difference it the Christians claim to teach tolerance, yet most are guilty of intolerance. "Judge not lest ye be judged". On the other hand your true Goth is very tolerant and nonjudgmental. So while you may think all Goths are this or that, remember the teachings of your religion. Most Goths know more about Christians than most Christians know about Goth. I also know some Goths that are Christians, some of the best Christians I do know in fact. Goth is not a religion, so it is not a cult by any definition by any dictionary, on line or in print.

~ Older Goths ::

   Goth has been around for over 25 years now and some have become parents. No, Goth didn't just pop up in the late 1990's, though Goths didn't get much notice until the late 90's. Teens are not the only Goths out there today and if you didn't know, some Goths are now in their late 30's & mid 40's. In fact some Goths are parents with teen children of their own now. I speak with Goths who are trying to deal with their teens. Goth parents are just like other parents trying to raise their kids. Goth parents don't always have Goth kids, since most Goths are open, they help their child grow into the person they are. You child learned from you so if you have problems with your child don't blame Goth, take a look at yourself. If you bothered to teach your child and gave them the tools needed to deal with problems you shouldn't have any worries just because your kid is starting to dress in all black and listen to music you don't get or understand. Remember 'Rock-n-roll' was labeled as evil, and people feared it back in the 1950's. I would like to think society would have learned by now, but it hasn't.

   Goth parents have problems with other parents more than they have with their kids however. Goth parents find even though their kid isn't Goth other parents don't like their kid mixing with the child of the Goth. Goth doesn't rub off and Goths are open minded and don't force their children into anything. As with parents who fear their teen becoming Goth, parents fear Goth parents out of ignorance. Most of the people who fear Goths claim to be nice religious people. If this were true their religion teaches tolerance, not the intolerance their actions show. If the people who speak agents the Goth culture only followed the words they claim to follow intolerance would not be such a problem in this world. Most who blame Goth do so out of ignorance and intolerance, not truth or fact. Some of the people who fear Goth also have other problems with tolerance of other groups and things they don't understand. The basic fact is Goths do not fear that which they don't understand. Rather most Goths look into and learn about such things so they will understand. Most humans fear death, so the fact some Goths look at death in a different light doesn't make us evil. 

    My view and opinion of tolerance and intolerance is based on how I see, relate, and deal with others. This is not just my opinion on intolerance about Goths, but other intolerance as well. I am not Gay, I can not have an abortion, I don't have a religion, and other things that are thought of as odd to most. Yet I am tolerant of others, I respect others as I want to be in return. I disrespect those who show disrespect, but I still tolerate them. I have things I don't like, but that is true with anyone. I don't like it when Gay men hit on me, but I do support Gay marriage, Gay rights, and more. I don't think all Gay men are like those who can't understand the word no, but that isn't all gay men. I know some Christians who are very bad people, they use religion to hurt, make money, and destroy. That isn't just Christians, Muslims are also good people, just because some are not I don't think all are bad. Some Americans are bad, so are all Americans bad? Right now the leader of this country is a man I think is wrong in every way, I do not like what he has done or will do. I think he and his leadership is a danger to Americans and the world. I don't think all who made what I see as a mistake in voting for him as bad. 

:: What makes me an authority on Goth? 

   I am not, I am just an old Goth, I have been into this Goth scene since 1978, and am still Goth today. I do not think I am "Mr. Goth" or anything like that. I was a 'punk skater' of the 1970's who fell into Goth back in 1978/79 so I've just sorta been Goth since before it was even called Goth. The fact is people were calling me a Goth long before I started to agree. I posted this page since all sorts of people post their opinion on Goth but they are mostly looking at what Goth is today. I also posted this to point out that where and when this thing called Goth started is not truly known. I was there and as I noted above many people were tossing the term Goth around from 1978 until it took hold sometime from 1980 to 1983. I have watched Goth grow from just an offshoot of punk into its own. I like some of the changes that have helped Goth grow but I also don't like others. Some of us moved into this thing that became Goth to get away from the social popularity games we watch played out before us. Goth is more than just a look, a type of music, or any of the many other things that people see as the stereotype. For us Goth is our way of coming together with people with like interests, without judgment, with an open mind, and free of the social rules we don't like.  

    I am still Goth over 25 years later and I enjoy being who I am. I don't think I am better because I have been Goth longer and I don't dislike the young Goths at all. Fact is I am glad to see Goth grow and I have always worked to get Goth information out to people. I don't like the older Goths that call the young kids Kinder Goth or any who use any of the many other new terms Goths have made to divide Goth up in a negative way. It is nice to remember the past but it is the past and best left there. I just hope to point out that one of the original things about Goth was having an open mind, being accepting of others and not playing along with society's popularity games. I have been a Goth for a very long time because of who I am, not how I dress, what music I like, who my friends are or aren't. I am Goth, but that's not all I am, and I am sure I will remain as I am until the day my bones are lying in a box rotting. 

:: Line Nowhere & Goth / Industrial

   In the 80's information on Goth and Industrial music was not easy to come by and the internet wasn't what it is today. Originally Line Nowhere was a rough printed info-pak that listed bands, their albums, the record label they were on and other information needed to get your local record shop to special order the albums for you. The first Line Nowhere was just given to some friends in the Philadelphia area back in April of 1980. I made about one a year just for friends until around 1983 when I attempted to make a zine of it for High School. Trouble is I could count the Goths at my High school on one hand and didn't need my thumb. Later Line Nowhere appeared as the label for some T-shirts I hand painted and sold in the Philadelphia area at Skinz and other local shops. By the late 80's and early 90's Line Nowhere had established a mailing list and was sent to people. The Internet, cost, and falling amounts of information took Line Nowhere out of print and moved it to it's first web page attempt in 1989, then more so in 1999 with the second page (Part of the first Line Nowhere page is still sorta up @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Show/5360/indexLINENOWHERE.html)

~ Please note :

   The above content on this page was taken from a paper I originally wrote for an English class in college in 1999. It is my opinion after being Goth for over 25 years. I adjusted some of the content of this page for 2005 after talking to some friends and reading a lot of what others have posted about Goth. I have talked to parents who were afraid of their child falling into the Goth scene. Most of the fears of the Goth subculture rise out of intolerance and ignorance rather than fact. If you don't like my opinion that is your right as it is my right to voice my opinion. I don't hide my contact information and have often discussed the issue of Goth with many over the years. I post this is an OPINION unlike many other sites because I am not foolish enough to think I am an authority even after 25 years. I am also still actively living as a Goth today. If you feel the need to contact me over any part of this page or my website you have that right. Just remember I log all ISP's that visit all pages of my site. Don't like the fact I have the freedom of speech? Then get back on your boat and go back to the place your ancestors came from, we didn't like the song, beads, and fire-water you're ancestors traded, and later stole from my ancestors anyway.