Thread started by Sidharta Rezende after Post was deleted by Hyakutake Colin
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05/15/2007, 10:46 AM
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Gosho-ha Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu
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Mr. Colin Watkins It seems that the informations regarding Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu that I posted yesterday were threatening you, so you decided to delete then. I didn't said that Imai Soke was not soke. Is that what you want people to think in the future when they read it? What are you afraid of? Do you think that people will no longer consider you as a "senior member", or that they will have doubts about what you have been doing? I already told this to you before, and will tell again. It's not my interest to expose the image of the ryu or Imai Soke's. But your actions leave no choice for me. Please stop spreading lies. Isn't easier if you correct your site, telling the truth about when Imai Soke started practicing and who was his teacher? If you do this and stop writing lies about Gosho Sensei , Kiyonaga Sensei and Kishikawa Sensei, I'll no longer have to expose you and your teacher. The information you so desperately deleted was that, despite of what is written in www.hyoho.com, Imai Soke started training Niten Ichi Ryu in 1975, months before Kiyonaga Sensei died. At that time he was 59 years old. It was the Kiyonaga family who asked for him to stay as soke, while Kiyonaga Fumiya, the son of the 9th Soke, was still young. Since the beggining who taught the ryu's techniques to Imai Soke was Shihan Gosho Motoharu, who received Menkyo Kaiden from Aoki Soke in 1961. Years latter (1988) he and Imai Soke splintered their ways. After that, Imai Soke changed deeply the katas. Imai Soke didn't received Menkyo Kaiden. Only after that time Mr. Iwami Toshio started practing. Unlike most senior practicionners, as Kiyonaga Fumiya and Nishioka Tiyomi, he had no contact with the original techniques. After Kiyonaga Fumiya sensei passed away, most of ryu members decided not to follow Mr. Iwami and joined Gosho Sensei in the Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. We practice the techniques as taught by Aoki Soke to Gosho Sensei. Will you deny anything , Mr. Watkins? As you will probably delete this, this post and the previous thread will be archieved at http://www.geocities.com/sidhartabr Sidharta Rezende |
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02:13 PM
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 Original
post That was the original post that Mr. Watkins deleted for
some reason.
I’ll try to clarify this without causing a flame war. The Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu was founded by Shihan Gosho Motoharu, who was a senir student of the 8th headmaster, Aoki Soke. In 1961 Aoki Soke issued two Menkyo Kaiden to Gosho Sensei, one in Niten Ichi Ryu and the other in Sekiguchi Ryu. Aoki Soke passed away in 1967. Gosho Sensei continued in both ryu along with Kiyonaga Tadanao (9th Soke Niten Ichi Ryu) and Yonehara Soke (15th Soke Sekiguchi Ryu) In 1976 Kiyonaga soke suddenly passed away without leaving a designated successor. The most likely choice would be his son, Kiyonaga Fumiya, who was still very young at that time. After months without soke, Gosho Sensei asked to the Kiyonaga family to give a decision. Kiyonaga Tadatoro, brother of the Kiyonaga Soke, asked for Gosho Snesei to teach the curriculum of the ryu to Imai Massayuke, a student who would stay as 10th Soke while Kiyonaga Fumiya wold be the 11th Soke. One important point is that Imai Massayuke started practicing a few months earlier, in 1975, and not in 1956 as is written in the site hyoho.com. At that time, Kiyonaga sensei had a wound in his leg, that months later caused his unexpected death. So, since the beginning, Gosho sensei taught Imai Soke. This fact was already pointed to the responsible for that site, but they didn't corrected that. I am not here to point fingers, but the information displayed in www.hyoho.com is not correct. I hope that this serves at least to make them correct the site. Gosho Sensei continued as the main teacher of the ryu in the next years, training Imai Soke. In 1981 the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai recorded the ryu’s techniques for their archive. Gosho Sensei served as uchidachi to Imai Soke. Imai Soke still didn’t knew all the katas of Bojutsu, so some katas were not recorded. Years later, in 1988, after the demonstration at Australia's 200th anniversary, Gosho Sensei and Imai Soke splintered their ways. Gosho Sensei had responsibilities also with the Sekiguchi Ryu group, and his Kendo and Iaido groups (Gosho Sensei is Iaido Hachidan). Imai Soke didn’t received Mankyo Kaiden; After this, Imai Soke changed deeply the techniques of the ryu. All the kata and some instances were changed. The result was completely different. The whole logic of the kata changed. It was only after this time (1988) that Mr. Iwami Toshio started practicing. Unlike most senior members, like Kiyonaga Fumiya and Nishioka Tyomi, he had no contact with the original katas. As was already written here, some years ago, Imai Soke decided to change what was decided years ago and have three successors instead of one. After Kiyonaga Fumiya Sensei passed away, most of the members of the ryu in Japan decided not to follow Mr. Iwami. Some of then decided to stop, others to continue with Gosho Sensei in Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and practice the katas as taught by Aoki Soke to Gosho Sensei. Regards, Sidharta Rezende Last edited by Sidharta rezend : Today at 02:26 PM. |
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05/15/07, 03:03 PM
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Not sure about anyone else, but I find it strange that if Gosho s. taught Imai s., Gosho s. should have qualified as next in line...
This to me is how the dojo hierarchy works excluding 'family heirloom' lineage as per the Kiyonaga family mentioned here. If it were me, I would not expect to be promoted over my sempai as a junior student under instruction by him as you suggest in this case. As both were not Kiyonaga family members, then surely the 'senior grade' would get the promotion? Are you proposing that Imai s. line is not the true line? If so, why? Everyone on here knows the japanese dojo lineage system is more convoluted than they would like to admit.... (MJER members know exactly what I mean) The person I would expect to shout out is any possible opposition to Iwami s, and as far as I am aware no-one is... so as far as I am concerned Iwami s. is the soke. Colin would write down the facts as he knows them and would have no reason to tell lies or mislead people. He lived in Japan for a considerable amount of time (until this year) and is familiar with the way things are there. In fact if anything he tells it like it is, which sometimes doesnt go down too well with his fellow budo people over there!
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Tim Hamilton Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted... |
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05/15/07, 03:59 PM
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Mr. Hamilton
Gosho Sensei was a close disciple of the 8th Soke, who gave him Menkyo Kainden and chosed as Soke daiken of the 9th generation. Gosho Sensei told that Imai Soke asked him this same question when Kiyonaga Soke died, "why Gosho Sensei don't stay as 10th Soke". The answer of Gosho Sensei was that he already belonged to the 9th generaton and was already Soke daiken. He felt that the 10th Soke should be a student of the 9th soke, not him, a disciple of the 8th soke. Please, note that I never said that Imai Massayuke wasn't Soke. But the truth is that there are wrong information about Imai Soke been spread in the internet. Imai Soke didn't started practicing the ryu in the 1950's with Aoki Soke. He began later, in 1975. It's surprising to see that this information is shocking for some people. If there is doubt, I suggest show the site of Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu (www.nitenichiryu.jp) to Imai soke's family and ask them if it is true that was Gosho Sensei who taught him. You are right when you say that lineage can be a complex matter. Wrong information about the ryu ave been spread and apparently none is aware of it. But it's wrong to say that Gosho Sensei issued himself a Menkyo Kaiden. To put doubt about Gosho Sensei authority and knowledge in the ryu the same that put in doubt Imai Soke's authenticity, because it was Gosho Sensei who taught him. Regards, Sidharta Rezende |
Original Thread questioning about Gosho Ha Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
Gosho-ha Hyoho Niten Ichi ryu
- I read a lot of sour grapes there.
