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This is Cliff's Private List, a free e-mail relating to seduction. Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from people commenting are separated by IIIIIIII) . If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list to receive this, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail (or hit "Reply") asking to be removed to [email protected] and it will be done (I have had some problems receiving emails lately, and you might be well advised to also address a "cc" of your email to me at [email protected] ). Please note that the [email protected] address will eventually change, so it would be best to keep sending emails to the other two addresses only. If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask. For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction, we highly recommend your visiting http://www.speed-seduction.com/
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Cliff: I am trying a new format this time, suggested by stRIPPed, where the
person who's commenting's name will appear after the IIIIIIIII separation lines.
Then there will be an ">" before the name of the person who's comment
the person is commenting on (for example: Tom:
>John: I believe in shock openings.
Tom: I also believe in that, but...
Let me know what you think of this new format which should make these emails more readable.
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You can download a free sample from http://www.seductionillustrated.com of
the new product from
Anthony Berger of Advanced Macking, which is an illustrated seduction manual.
It looks very interesting and reviews are encouraged.
Thanks to Frank for letting me know about this one.
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Cultleader:
Milton Erickson, Bandler/Grinder, and Ross Jeffries have opened up Pandora's
box. Now the pornographers are using SS to seduce young women to strip in front
of the camera. I got this from
mindlist.....http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mindlist/message/13936 the post tells
you to go to....http://www.lukeford.com/ read the bit about how he uses anchoring
to seduce, and then click the "maria anchoring movie" at the bottom
and watch him at work. Surely this is an indication that the end is near.
> Mystery, commenting on Stephane:
If you come up with excuses like, "but I'm scared" or "I'm too
busy", well, you are effectively saying, "I haven't had enough lonely
nights".
Cultleader: That's right. I tell people, no matter what their problem, that if they cannot do what has to be done, then I simply say SUFFER. And that's good advice, because only suffering will bring them to eventual success.
> Mystery: "Here the advice is INTELLECTUALIZED. We KNOW we don't
have a REASON to be scared, yet it still happens. The solution is not to accumulate
longer lists of REASONS, but to get out there so much that the feeling wears
off over successive experiences."
Cultleader:: Right again. These shy guys usually understand the problem and
the solution, restating it doesn't help, they have looked at their problem at
more angles than others have.--But Mystery in a sense makes the same error as
Stephane. Like Stephane, he offers good advice, but as I said these shyguys
already know that they should take action, restating it in more illustrious
ways will not make them do 48 pickups a week. These blokes need to either suffer
or be forced to act from an outside source. - I see a business opportunity.
Light parlor hypnotism and NLP swish techniques are too mild, these guys need
some hard core KGB brainwashing, I propose that they come to me and for no fee
up front I will transform these nerds with Pain/drug hypnosis, bring them to
a state of transmarginalization, wipe the slate clean and then input the new
directives. I can subcontract for Mystery and Ross, I break em down , then hand
them over to the seduction experts for training. Of course I run into the same
problem's as the rest of you, I have offered a solution, but it's up to the
individual to TAKE ACTION and sign on with the program, I can't just snatch
these guys from the beds.
(You know I'm just kidding , right?......OR AM I.) So that brings us back to
what Mystery basically said, either DO or JERK OFF. For the benefit of mankind
and the seduction community, I give you....
CULTLEADER'S LAW FOR OVERCOMING SHYNESS. -- #1. Take action, gain experience.
If you cannot follow the first part, then by default you will follow.... #2
SUFFER.
There it is. That's it. Everything else is commentary.
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Mark B.:
When I was 13 I had a girlfriend that was 12 at the time. All we did was just
see each other after school, hold hands and play in the park. This went on for
about a year. Then summer came and she went away to summer camp and came back
a changed girl. All of a sudden she lost all interest in me and went out and
started seeing guy after guy after guy. This crushed me for I really loved her.
It took me a long time to get over being dumped like this at such a tender and
young age. My best guess was that she got laid for the first time at camp, liked
it and did not see me in a younger tender love sort of way any more.
As the years went by and I became a full blown teenager, I suffered from further
esteem issues by having horrible acne problems which to this day have left deep
scars on both sides of my face. Needless to say from the age of 15 to about
19, I did not have one date or one lay. Reeling from being dumped so many years
ago, as well as being so self conscious over having bad skin, left me feeling
totally inadequate as far as being able to deal and get women. In addition,
my mother always said that I should find and have that one special girl and
that a relationship just happens to you. This was a very disempowering belief
as it took the onus of responsibility away from me. I would run away from women
for fear of them seeing me as some sort of bad skinned leper and at the same
time waited for that "special one" to come along and relationship
to "just happen." What kept me sane was my weight training and my
school which I knew one day would be my salvation.
Then at the age of 20, while taking a summer course while at U of T, something
changed. I met a HB8 who approached me after class. Over the next few weeks
we talked and she asked me out and asked me for my number. She invited me over
to her house while her boyfriend was gone, of course, and led me to the bedroom.
This event showed me that, yes, I could be attractive to women and that there
is a possibility of success for me. My confidence surged.
By realizing that I could succeed with women and there was hope for me, I began
being more bold and open with women and acting with much more confidence. I
realized that they are not scary and they are not out to bite my head off. In
fact, the worst that has ever happened to me was a HB7 once looked at me in
the eye and told me to "fuck off, asshole" at a club to which I had
a good laugh. Since it was loud, I pretended not to hear her and made her repeat
herself about 10 times. With each time she grew more and more agitated and even
though she was being a total bitch I was getting back at her by irritating her
even further with each passing "what was that you said?" from me.
So it was not that bad after all. What increased my confidence overall was realizing
that failure is a part of success. Having a minor in statistics from U of T
showed me that on each particular sample (action), results are virtually random.
However, over time they line up in an orderly fashion. For example, if you approach
1 HB you could get a variety of responses - a "fuck off", a smile,
a "I have a BF", a number, a blow job, a date, a fuck, a bank stare,
her running away, her walking away, etc. Over time, if you approach enough
women, say 100 or 1000, you will be guaranteed to get a bunch of each of these
responses based on the approach you use. But it's nearly impossible to predict
what sort of response you will get on any one HB you approach.
However, over time results will line themselves up relatively consistently based
on how you approach them and the only way to get them is to go out there and
do it 10's, 100's and 1,000's of times.
Let's put success with women into a formula: Assume success or f{S} = being
direct + being good at NLP + confidence + charm + smiling + acting with courage
+ PV + R. PV are personal variables where these are things that you do specifically
yourself that make you successful, plus R which is a random variable.
R are things out of your control that may either positively or negatively predispose
you to her such as her mood, her personality, her preferences, her PMS, her
past or whatever that is out of your control. Things contained in R are things
you cannot control for the most part right at the beginning and yet they will
to a large extent affect your success rate. However, given that you meet an
HB who's R does not contain things that may negatively predispose you to her,
being good at all the things mentioned above that you can control, can significantly
improve one's chance for success.
So now having all the things I can control such as being direct + being good
at NLP + confidence + charm + smiling + acting with courage + PV have given
me a
huge confidence boost knowing that as long as I can control them I will find
women with a positive R toward me. Based on this, I went out expecting a whole
scale of various results and that is exactly what I found. For example, I found
that 30 - 50% of the women I approached I could get a number and a date. Out
of those about 50% of them I could sleep with and out of those maybe 25% would
want a relationship. So I broke down the numbers 100 women, 40 dates, 20 fucks
and 5 relationships. So all I have to do is approach say 5 women to get one
fuck. But what I also found was that once I got one with a positive R (randomly
positive predisposition) toward me it was up to me to fuck things up and I made
sure I did not by being direct, charming, sexual, flirty, complementary, etc.
I also realized that the more time I spent with a woman and if things did not
go my way it actually became my responsibility for fucking things up. In addition,
the results are not perfectly aligned.
This means that not one out of every, say, 3 women I approach will give me her
number. This means that this is the expected result over time but not over the
short term. Once I had a streak where I had 7 women in a row that I approached
give me their numbers and I ended up going out with them all. Out of those,
3 slept with me and two wanted a relationship. But after that I had a streak
where about 5 I went up to said no. This indicated to me that sometimes I will
have streaks but as long as I keep at it the numbers will even themselves out.
To understand this better consider the flip of a coin. The probability of heads
is 50% and the probability of tails is 50%. Over time, say 10,000 flips of the
coin, you will get roughly 5,000 heads and 5,000 tails, give or take a few.
But there will be times when heads will get way ahead of tails or vice versa.
The key to remember is that each flip is independent of the previous one and
the odds of success are exactly the same from flip to flip.
Knowing this allows me to keep going in the face of say 5 or 10 rejections in
a row while making sure I am sharpening my skills that I can control.
This way I know that there is a chance that on the next flip I could score.
So knowing that any initial negative predispositions to me were out of my control,
I became less and less worried when they happened. In fact, what I do is repeat
to myself that there is a chance of success on the very next woman that I approach.
What I also found was that there was a whole wide range of time
to which women would wait to respond me. Some would fuck you for the first time
on the first meeting, or the first date, second date, third date or after 6
weeks or never. There are women who I would need to ask once for a date, twice,
three times or more or they would never go out. Same thing for a number or anything
else. Now when I see a babe I think to myself, after a couple of deep breaths
"Aggressive, calm, funny, sexual, flirty and direct.
There is a chance of success on this one. Let's see where she falls into the
probability scale" And since I cannot control her R (random initial positive/negative
predispositions) my focus is totally on what I am doing and what I need to do
rather than worrying about what she will do or what she is thinking. For me
this is the best way of making sure I stay on track and not get too down when
things are going rough.
What I also found useful is to show what you are about right away so that you
find out early if she has the same predispositions as you for you do not want
to be about only fucking (for example) and she wants to wait until marriage.
By revealing what I am after, I am qualifying her and seeing if she is also
predisposed that same way as me. When I meet a HB my thinking is "She looks
hot, I wonder if she is a good fuck, I also wonder if this could be that type
of woman with whom I could spend some quality time." So my approach is
one where I indicate to her my level of attraction and desire for her while
also indicating my desire to get to know her better and spend some quality time
doing things together. If she agrees, then I found one with my positive R (random
positive predisposition) then it's up to me then to keep from fucking up. But
if she is not about fucking nor fun to be with or only one of the two, I go
on my way most of time unless she is really hot then I just sleep with her and
move on that same day.
MB: My little sister called me today and admitted that she slept with her new
boyfriend for the first time. This is the same guy who she told not to call
her again because he talked too much about his other women. He kept on being
persistent and finally scored. When I asked what finally changed her mind she
said he was free and easy with her and that turned her on. She said that he
said he wanted to sleep with her and she said she was unsure but he went ahead
began undressing and kissing her anyways and she did not resist him. Instead
of asking he just took charge, went for what he wanted and scored. She also
said that he was not as well hung as her previous boyfriend but that he knew
how to use what he had and that made up for any difference in size and actually
exceeded anything the previous boyfriend ever did.
I asked what finally turned her she said that he just took charge and took what
he wanted and that took any and all uncertainty away from her. She said being
with him sexually was the best experience she ever had because he took charge
and was a leader throughout the experience - she just laid back and had fun.
Good for her..........
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Adam:
> Mystery: "Getting good with women through hypnosis is a crock of shit."
Adam: I believe that Mystery's outlook is much more beneficial than thinking
that hypnosis will take away your fears. I don't think hypnosis is "full
of shit", but it's only about 4% of the deal, the other 96% is field work.
To believe that it helps any more than that 4% I believe is HARMFUL rather than
beneficial, because you have FALSE confidence. I have been a part of the JURASSIC
(Just Using Ross' Amazing Speed Seduction In Consortium) lair in Santa Barbara
and the one in the Bay area. And there are many guys in there who just think
Ross and Richard Bandler are awesome, and they don't EVER APPROACH WOMEN!
This one guy paid over $2000 to go to the Speed Life seminar, I asked him how
his life has improved since then, and he said "The best thing I learned,
is that you can control your state." Well, this guy can control his state
worse than anyone I've ever known, and he has no balls.
I know a guy who's been to 2 Major Mark seminars, and has all these Ross Jeffries
products. He's even got a certificate from Tad James to be a hypnotist! He claims
that you don't have to do so many walkups to get good.
I go out with him, and he can't do more than 2 walkups a night before he calls
it quits. He uses excuses like "I don't feel like it, or my absolute favorite
'I wasn't in state'.
I could name more people who have gone to SS seminars, Essential Skills seminars,
etc. who say they learned all this valuable stuff, and they still couldn't get
laid if they were the last mammal on earth.
I have been doing many walkups in clubs regularly every weekend, and it's no
longer a scary thing for me. I have fun with women, make them laugh, I'm not
self-critical, and I don't focus on state. I always come home with a phone #,
and I'm actually getting laid sometimes. I've come a long way, and I can only
go further.
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Chrisonic: I will post here the approach which got me the hottest girl I ever
kissed. I never read about a similar approach on those seduction sites, so I
would like to see your comments.
I was in a club with a friend drinking some beers. After 6 or 7 cans of beer,
we decided to approach 2 girls. Both were 6 or 6,5. Mine had a nice face, but
her body was a little flat. I used the well known AFC approach: "You are
nice, What's your name, where do you live," and all this old shit...
After 7 or 8 minutes of talking, I succeeded and kiss closed. I think it happened
because she liked my look. My friend succeeded with the other girl also.
At some point I needed to pee, so told my girl I was going to the bathroom and
she said ok. When I came back, I noticed a girl who I thought was the same girl
I kiss closed some minutes before (actually it wasn't the same girl. The girl
was an HB10 with a similar face and a super hot body! The club was very crowded
and I was kind of drunk, so I couldn't realize that).
An AFC was hitting on her (HB10) and she was laughing, so I became angry and
very aggressive (thinking HB10 was the girl I had already kissed).
I tapped the AFC's shoulder and said to him: Me: Hey man, this is my girl. Don't
bother her.
AFC: Ok. I was just talking to her...
So I bypassed the AFC and went to the girl in a very aggressive-ultra confident
way and with an angry look in my face (don't forget I WAS NOT pretending I was
angry. I was, in fact, angry!): Me: What are you thinking!? You can't do that
to me, cause I'll kick your butt if you try!
HB10: (looking puzzled but with a little smile in her face) Are you crazy?
What did you say to the guy (the AFC)I was talking to?
Me: Yeah, I am crazy, so what!? (I think at this moment I put my 2 hands on
the wall, so she couldn't go away, if she wanted.) That's not the way things
are if you are with me!!
HB10: (still with a smile in her face) Are you crazy?
Me: I am crazy, and you won't get out of here without kissing me! No way!
(I tried to kiss, she turned her face. Notice that at this point I'm still thinking
she is the same girl I kiss closed before!) HB10: (she simulated a reaction
pushing one of my arms, but it was obvious she didn't want to get rid of me,
cause she was still with that smile on her face) What are you doing?
Me: I am telling you, you won't get out of here without kissing me! (I tried
to kiss her again, she turned her face a little bit, but I reached the side
of her mouth. She had the same smile, still. I'm still thinking she is the girl
I kiss closed before! I thought that her resistance was BS/test)
Me: (I say something along the same lines, hug her tight and tongue her this
time.) When I looked down to her body I realized she wasn't the same girl and
instead a super HB10. I thought to myself: What the fucking heck!!
I couldn't believe I had just kiss closed an HB 10 in less than 5 minutes!!!
My friend couldn't belive it also. He saw me kissing this girl that every guy
in the club wanted and sort of froze. That happened in 1999. Back then I was
a complete AFC (I still am kind of an AFC, but I'm trying hard to get out of
AFCness). Now I am trying to figure out how to systemize this kiss close and
repeat this performance. I think It will only work with HB 8, 9, 10 or the ones
who like male aggression.
What do you think? Perhaps Nightlight9 has similar approaches...
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Stephane:
> Mark B: Why does talking about a relationship seem to negate one's chances
for getting her? I figured that when a guy tells her he wants one, he is in
essence ignoring her and focusing on a relationship.)
Stephane: Nice observation...talking about a relationship right off the bat
is a prescription for
masturbation. I want to add that when you discuss a relationship too quickly
you are
sort of 'giving yourself away for free'.
These days I've been having crazy successes by using a 'qualification frame'.
I just boldly ask her questions....do you have a BF? Do you live with your parents?
What do you do for a living? etc. etc. and then saying, "Have a drink with
me." Actually, I don't ONLY do that, but I'm giving you a bare skeleton.
You guys are going to have to wait for the book to come out (soon, I promise)
to get to the good stuff : )
> Mystery:(Commenting on Stephane: "The thing with shyness is in getting
the person to see the truth and to realize that girls aren't scary. Think about
it....if you
actually just SIT in a bar and LOOK at a girl, they get scared : ) Try it!
Go to a bar, order a drink, and sit at the far end of the bar. Doesn't matter
what you look like, just sit there and put on a warm, friendly smile, nothing
spectacular, and LOOK AT THEM. When they (if they) look at you back, just maintain
your friendly smile and keep looking at them. See how long it takes for them
to look away in TOTAL SHYNESS! You'll be amazed.
It's THEM who are shy, not you!! That's the lesson that you have to teach shy
people."):
Mys wrote: Here the advice is INTELLECTUALIZED. We KNOW we don't have a REASON
to be
scared, yet it still happens. The solution is not to accumulate longer lists
of REASONS, but to get out there so much that the feeling wears off over successive
experiences. Wanna get rid of the fear of roller coasters?
Decide to ride 500 of them. That'll do it. Your body will get so USED to them
that it becomes NORMAL. My cat used to be afraid of car rides. Now he sleeps
in the car. Think of THAT!
Stephane: The advice is NOT intellectualized. I'm giving them a set of instructions
to
go out in the real world and learn something practical for themselves. If they
actually follow my instructions outlined here they won't just have an intellectual
understanding, they will learn something of value on ALL LEVELS.
> Mys:"A person is gonna SIT DOWN and CHANGE? Please! The WOMEN problem is far too important to mess around with TRICKING your brain to FEEL confident.
Stephane: You call it 'tricking', I call it learning. All change is a learning
experience. And
why do you emphasize SITTING? I didn't know that you had to be standing to change!
> Mys:"Mere words will NEVER take the place of EXPERIENCE."
Stephane: Words create experience and actually DO affect one's neurology.
> Mys: "But the guys who are really good at the game aren't good because they hypnotized the fear out of their head (sorry, it's bullshit, gentlemen). They are good because they FOUGHT the fear. They had it in them to keep FIGHTING because the rewards were worth it. And then looking back they realized, they won the war because of hundreds of little daily battles.
Stephane: I'd sure hate to be you! See, I don't battle with myself, EVER. The
battles
tend to reinforce the problem anyway...
> Mys:"See me work a room. The girls don't know which girl I'm with
is my GF.
That MYSTERY is valuable to build curiousity. You see, that's the power of NEG
THEORY. A guy would NOT do a NEG on a girl if he LIKED her. This really throws
the girl off the scent. It's like, "the guy approached my group but doesn't
seem to be hitting on me." This is a great position to build her curiousity.
Stephane: If she can't handle my flirting with her and my showing sincere interest
in her, then
what the fuck do I want her for?? Why is she in the bar, if not to meet a guy?
I'm
not manipulative, I'm not sneaky, I'm not trying to get her to think "the
guy approached my group but doesn't seem to be hitting on me." I don't
do that shit.
> Mys:"I prefer having her wonder if you are there for your own entertainment
or
to hit on someone ... and confuse her even more by NOT hitting on her until
AFTER she is hitting on you."
Stephane: So you want to make them wonder things and confuse them and wait for them to hit on you. Too much work. I am sure you can make this work for you, but that's all it is. See, I don't bullshit them like you do.
A message to Mystery:
Mys, I have read all your comments to me about hypnotherapy and NLP. I don't
knock YOUR
business, and I don't insult you and tell you that your business is completely
useless.
I hope you can take what you dish out.
You take your students and send them out into the field without any mental
preparation...
therefore I wouldn't recommend your workshop UNLESS they ALREADY knew how to
control
their state. Then again, if they already know how to control their state and
be relaxed
and loose and charming around women, then they don't need you! And that's because
when you can control your state of mind THE REST IS EASY.
I'm not intellectualizing the shyness away. The brain in an archival system
-- it doesn't
have a delete button. I'm not getting rid of shyness, I'm adding new states.
I set
them up so that right BEFORE they have shyness they have the confidence instead.
Of
course, they still know how to be shy, but they don't use that program anymore.
I literally
get them at the level of cortical pathways, and if you'd like to challenge that
go ahead!
Bring me a healthy guy with a chyck-phobia and we'll hook him up to brain-scan
machines
and measure the changes scientifically.
I've done things with hypnosis and NLP that are so far beyond what I thought
possible
it's scary. A human being really IS a learning machine and you really CAN learn
to
respond differently to any stimulus. Practical, real-world experience is important,
but if
you can't control the disabilitating feeling of fear BEFORE you go out, you're
going to
get crushed in the real world. And the point is that you don't need to get hit
by a bus
to LEARN TO LOOK BOTH WAYS.
One of the nice things about being in a trance state... is that you can dare
to look at...
and learn things... that you WOULDN'T dare to look at in the ordinary waking
state....and
in the trance state you can know... that you have all the protections of your
'unconscious'
mind... which has been protecting you... in your dreams.... allowing you to
dream what you
wish... when you wish... and keeping that dream for as long as your 'unconscious'
thought
necessary....
> Mys: Commenting on: ...cause it's bold. I like it. I think I'll try this
great
shit out and report back on the results. Of course, you have to do this on a
sexually mature girl.
> Greg Rasputin:"So you're gonna do an approach that only works on a
sexually mature girl? But if you've never approached her before how do you if
she's sexually mature?
Stephane: I can appreciate your point but I know a sexually mature girl just
by looking at her.
The way she moves, talks, speaks... I'm just trying to say that if you learn
to trust
your intuition...
> Alan: "Now, I still have a shyness problem: last night, Porn Girl
asked me what
sort of porn stories I most liked to read, and I was a bit shy about telling
her. When I see her next, I'm going to "Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway."
Curse this shyness :-)
Stephane: Consider, for a moment, the notion of 'secondary gain'. Because shyness
really IS cute!
USE your shyness...if they think it's cute, then they think it's cute. I don't
want you to 'get over' anything, I want you to master it. I want you to be able
to know how you engage in the activity of 'being shy', and what triggers it.
There's a funny thing that happens when I work with shyness. As soon as they
realize exactly how they go about creating and maintaining it they learn to
control it. Good luck to you and don't get mad at yourself for having 'shyness'....learn
how it works and the rest will take care of itself.
Oh, and by the way...learn to actually be PROUD of the kind of porn you read :-)
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Mr. Mctoothbucket:
For the computer dork in all of us:
10 Feel not very confident
20 Be afraid to talk to people
30 Feel lonely as a result
40 Feel even less confident
50 Be even more afraid to talk to people 60 Feel even lonelier.
70 IF Do something about it THEN GOTO 80 ELSE GOTO 40 80 Let people know you're
alive
90 Let people know what you think and feel 100 Notice that people are becoming
more interested in hearing what you have to say
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Deadeye: Been a while since I posted. Some updates: On the mother-daughter
thing, they had dinner at my house, along with daughter's bf. I concentrated
on tonality, mirroring, and kino with mother but not daughter because bf was
there, and frankly, she didn't need it. At about midnight, they all wanted to
ride in my old Corvette convertible.
I took them riding in turns, mother first, who kept saying "you're so easy
to talk to." On the road, I said "Take off your top." Mother
(who was having a good time) grinned and said "No, I shouldn't". I
smiled and said "Okay." Three seconds later the top comes off (no
bra) and stays off until we're a block from the house. Daughter's next, and
in the car I tell her what happened. She grins and says "Well, then I have
to, too." Shirt and bra come off. At a stoplight we kiss. GREAT kisser.
Drive around and then take bf for his ride. Then they want rides in the Viper
(a coupe.) Mother first again, and this time, without a word from me, when we
clear the driveway she takes off ALL her clothes(!). I just smile and drive
around as if I do this every day. (Started to finger her, but she didn't want
that.) Next, I tell bf to hop in, figuring I'll let mom & daughter talk
for 10-15 minutes. Drop him off, and when daughter gets in, she says "Mom
told me what she did!" and proceeds to do exactly the same thing. She,
OTOH, liked being fingered and positioned herself to permit easier access.
Daughter heard HB skater (a bisexual) was coming to visit last week for the
holidays and wanted to get together with us but scheduling never worked out.
HB skater was fun as usual except she took two Valium before Christmas dinner
and made an absolute fool of herself to my family. On a happier note, daughter
kicked bf out of her apartment last week after he gave her a black eye. I introduced
her to one of my co-workers as "Sort of my girlfriend." She laughed
and said "ONE of his girlfriends." Good attitude.
Now for the question: A few months ago, I met HB Italian when I was with HB
skater. HB Italian was with her bf of 2 years, who I had met once at the racetrack,
and he recognized me and called me over. We all talked and had drinks, then
HB Italian took me aside and asked if HB skater was my serious gf, as she had
a friend in mind she thought I would like. I told her HB skater lived 1000 miles
away and we had no delusions about exclusivity. She told me about the woman
and said she'd call with the number, which she did a few days later. When I
tried it, it was not a working number. I called HB Italian to say she'd gotten
the number wrong and she said "Let me get my address book and I'll get
us on a 3-way call right now and introduce you." She did, and the woman
said, "Well, I'm in a very committed relationship but we could be friends."
I immediately said "No, I've got enough friends. Thank you for being upfront
so neither of us wasted our time." This, I found out later, blew HB Italian
away. She thought it was an amazing attitude.
I ran into HB Italian when I was out having dinner with friends a few weeks
later. She informs us she's broken up with bf after he became upset over the
fact that she had 3 different kinds of soap, and shoved her against the wall
to make his point (where do women find these morons?). I mention I'm about to
meet HB skater for 4 days in the mountains but the night before on the phone
she got in a snit and said "Maybe I shouldn't go." HB Italian laughs
and says, "Hell, I'll go if she doesn't want to." We all laugh. HB
Italian calls me when I get back in town & wants me to meet her and two
of her friends for drinks. I do & we end up necking in the car. We go out
a few days later and we spend the whole night snuggling together on the couch.
We go out to dinner a few days later and she has stomach trouble and asks me
to take her back to her house afterwards. When I get home, the phone is ringing
and it's her, saying "I really wanted to spend the night in your bed, but
I didn't think you'd appreciate it if I got sick." I laugh and thank her
for sparing us both.
She calls the next night and wants to come over, order food, snuggle and watch
a Grace Kelly movie on video. Of course, I agree. She talks about cooking for
me, and us taking a yoga class together. I like this because HB Italian (age
37) is the smartest and most interesting of all the girls I've been seeing,
she has her own business, and is financially very savvy. We end up in bed, having
exceptionally good sex. "Oh God, I just KNEW you were a "diver"
when I met you!" and "When did you know that I was going to go to
bed with you?" I told her I knew the night we met, which is the vibe I
got at the time. She blushed and was very pleased. In the morning she was ready
to go at it again. Before she went home, she left a silk nightshirt and a toothbrush
at my house, joking that she was hiding them in my bureau so no other girl would
put them in the toilet.
So now the problem: The night we spent together was less than 2 weeks before
Christmas. When I called her the next day to make plans, she seemed depressed
and distant. She had family obligations for the holiday, so I tried to drum
up enthusiasm for something a few days after, then New Year's. She went on about
hating New Year's, another year gone, etc. I remained upbeat and with a no-big-deal
attitude.
Remember HB skater was scheduled to come in town on the 21st for 5 days (planned
since before I ever met HB Italian) and this meant less juggling for me.
She called on the 23rd and I was upbeat, busy, and asked her advice on where
to get an XBox for my daughter. I dropped by her house on the 28th with a few
little gifts I had gotten her for Christmas: Two kinds of soap, because of her
ex's attitude, and a gangbang video, which she had earlier confessed was her
favorite adult genre. She liked the gifts and tilted her face up for a goodbye
kiss when I left.
We talked yesterday (New Year's Eve). Knowing how HB Italian is very close to
her widowed mother, I told her to meet me at my Mom's house, I wanted her to
meet my mother (widowed and age 86), and see the 250-lb.
Christmas tree I put up for her. She agreed after some good-natured ribbing
when she tried to put me off, but asked "Why are you so persistent?"
I laughed and said, "Because I like you and I know this whole pretending-you-don't-like-me
bit is just some weird temporary phase you're going through." "I've
never acted like I didn't like you!" she protested. "Well, you aren't
doing a very good job, anyway," I laughed. We had a great hour or so with
my mother, and at one point HB Italian commented (with a small smile) "Your
son is really persistent." HB Italian said earlier she was going to a party
at a friend's house.
When I walked her to her car, she made it clear she was not going to invite
me to go along. I shrugged, once again conveying "no big deal." Told
her I'd call her in a day or so, and left without going for a kiss--the vibe
was wrong.
HB Italian is the most interesting of the girls I'm seeing, but her current
behaviour has me scratching my head. I know several things: 1. It is counterproductive
to try to reason with a woman about why she should be attracted to you ("We
had great sex and you wanted to make all sorts of plans with me, what's changed?")
So is sounding like you're pleading. I've kept the "Bratty little sister"
frame firmly in mind at all times. Also always used my most seductive voice
(Caucasian Barry White) on the phone since day one.
2. She is sad about the time she wasted with the ex, as he had obvious problems.
She does NOT want to get back together with him.
I'm at a loss as to what I should do to recreate the attraction on her part.
Is this just a "Christmas holiday after breakup" funk that hits some
women really hard? Should I
a) Keep doing what I'm doing -- calling every few days with some small but specific
thing I want her to do with me? (i.e. coming over and cooking dinner with me)
b) Not call at all for a while? How long?
c) Tell her (with a smile) "Hey, I met this really great girl, and we really
hit it off. We were making plans together, and we had great sex that was about
to get even better. Now she's vanished, and I need your help to find out if
she's just away for a little while, or if she's dead. I'd like to have this
girl back, but If I know she's dead, then I'll stop thinking about her."
d) Tell her, the next time she says something about how she wasted two years
on ex-bf and she doesn't want to waste another two, "HB Italian, NO time
you spend with me will ever be time wasted." e) Tell her it's obvious to
me she's no longer interested and ask her to introduce me to some equally hot
friends. (I don't think I'm at this point yet, BTW)
I know I've got other irons in the fire, but this one has (or had) LTR potential
that the others do not. At age 44, I'm perhaps more interested in self-sufficient,
smart women than some of you PUAs.
Suggestions from anyone would be appreciated. I'm especially interested in what
Ross would suggest.
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Christos:
>Ross: I met Sin last week. Sin saw ME do some stuff that opened his eyes..so
did your buddy Chris/Neal. Stop assuming you know everything. You don't. Is
it too good to be true that I got a girl hot and bothered in under 5 minutes
asking her TWO simple questions without even putting a finger on her? AND did
the same thing to the hostess, telling her what I was doing while I did it?
Christos: So are you going to spill the beans and tell us what these magic
questions were?
I enjoy reading this list very much but am often frustrated by the stuff that
is left unsaid.
I have read a lot of references to the cube and Riker's 3 rules but still haven't
managed to find out what these are yet.
Cliff, please could you include some pointers on basics like this so that the
threads are a little bit easier to follow?
Cliff: The cube was posted here some time ago and I don't remember if Riker's 3 rules were or not - but if not, that would be up to Riker to allow them to be posted here. I don't think it would be a good idea to repost the details of these type of references everytime something comes up (this list is long enough as it is) but I do think it would be a good idea to have a place where you can find out such things (eg. an FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions - area on a website. A website is something I am giving a lot of thought to and hope to have under development shortly -- I would hope to have the archives of all the old posts there and you would be able to do a search to find anything that you wanted). Keep your eyes on this list for new developments.
> Suzy Licorice: My bf said "I'm going to read the palm of an accountant"
and took her hand. She was very intrigued and asked "You know how to read
palms?" My bf said "Yes. I learned palm reading as a way to get to
know someone quickly, and see if this is the kind of person I might like to
get to know better." She was pleasantly surprised and then said "A
psychic read my palm once. I'll see how you compare to her." My bf said
"Your life line and your head line intersect at the edge of your palm."
She said "The psychic said my life line was short, so I won't live long."
My bf said "The lines on your hand cannot possibly predict your future,
that's bullshit.
But they do predict how you will respond to events in your life, because they
are your lines." She said "Yes, that makes sense!" He said "You
could very well enjoy a very long life." That really eased her. It also
diffused a cruel time bomb that the psychic had planted. (Like Major Mark says
"Leave 'em better than you found 'em.") She then became eager to know
more about herself. My bf said "Talking about psychics, you have a square
palm, which means you are not psychic. Psychics have long narrow palms. You
are not psychic, but you are intuitive. You can think about someone and then
the phone will ring and it will be them." She said "Oh yes! That is
so true." He said "You have the intuition to be a quick judge of character.
You can know, right when you meet someone, that this is a person who has a positive
energy, and this is someone you would like to get to know better." She
enthusiastically agreed. He said "Your heart line is very curved. This
means you are a very passionate person. You are not only passionate about passion,
you are passionate about the things you believe." She agreed. Then he said
"But what is interesting is, see here, the end of your heart line is forked.
That is a sign of sexual adventurism. Are you bi-sexual?" She said "Welllllll...."
and looked down with a big smile. My bf said "You don't have to answer
that." She said "Well, I partially experimented with that once."
I said "It is very natural." My bf went into Rick H's "Sexual
Nurturing" pattern. She kept looking at me for my approval, trying to see
if I was bi-sexual. She asked me if I believed that. I said "Yes I do."
I explained to her that it is a very natural thing. She said "Why is it
natural for two women but not two men?" I said "It's all about energy"
and I went into Rick H's "Ying and Yang energy" pattern. Once she
got my approval and knew that I was into it, she became very comfortable. I
got kino on her and she reciprocated. I had to keep the kino toned down because
my brother was also at the club. His presence was really cramping my style.
Christos: Good writing combined with very useful techniques. I also like the
Bluffer's Guide to Fortune Telling book but I am not sure that it is still in
print. I like to use the following lines to loosen girls up in this kind of
scenario:
You are going to have a new experience
You need to be more adventurous
I see a missed opportunity, try something while you have the chance, otherwise
you may not have a similar opportunity You have a lot of tension and you need
a release You will live to a very old age but you will have lots of serious
illnesses in later life
Of course, I always leave them wanting a little more and then drop in that I
have a tarot deck at home if she is really interested.
I got laid a lot thanks to Rider Waite. Crowley was not so helpful. Is there
a better, more salacious deck that I should be using?
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PRODUCTS AND LINKS (There's some NEW STUFF in here, and I will try and put something new in here as often as possible):
For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.
NON SEDUCTION-RELATED SITES
One of the more useful links I have set up is to amazon.com -- I know I buy
a lot from them and I am sure that many of you also do. So I arranged a link
with them and you can now buy from them and help out this email newsletter at
the same time. If anyone has any other suggestions of sites that would be a
good one for me to set up a link to, please let me know.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/nositeihaveap-20 For those in
the U.K., this should work: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=cliffslist-21&site=amazon
Here's a way for you to accept credit cards on your site today: http://zzz.clickbank.net/r/?cliffslist
RECOMMENDED LIST
DOUBLE YOUR DATING One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming
more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating
e-book. David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" -- which is
"hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for
several years now that I originally met through one of Ross's Speed Seduction
seminars. His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions
I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended.
http://www.doubleyourdating.com/cl/ HOW TO SUCCEED WITH WOMEN Ron Louis and
David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me
their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has
some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you
can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those
who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent
basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For
those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set
of tapes.
http://www.howtosucceedwithwomen.com/cgi-bin/at.cgi?a=169700 SEVEN MAGIC WORDS
Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites
that have been seen within this "seduction community." After seeing
several terrible reviews and "flames" from alt.seduction.fast, I decided
to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered
on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels
about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted
to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was
happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and
that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that
spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some
audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal
to anything I have seen in the past. At any rate, I know you wanted a review..
and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his
members area than I would expect to see from any other site.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/smackudown DATING INSIDER Not only does
this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee,
but it stands alone and it's program is unmatched. Right now they're doing a
Free Trial period, and I'd take advantage of this while you can. The site reads
"Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women.
From A - Z, you'll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women
ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you'll
see why their members like this program so much. Click on
http://www.dating-insider.com/international/welcome.html.
How to Lay Girls Guide The ultimate SEDUCTION SECRETS database: http://www.layguide.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=Cliffslist
NEW RECOMMENDATIONS:
I have finished reading The Sexual Key and it is one of the best works I have
read about understanding the language that women respond to. I give this a strong
recommendation and the price is right, too. The book, and/or its companion book,
Gut Instinct (which I will be reviewing) can be downloaded off the net for $39.97
each or $49.97 for both.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist.sexualkey
THE UNKNOWN! (Not reviewed)
HYPNO-TECH Here's another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past
but I haven't gone through the old emails to check. "Do You Want To Know
A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman
Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/hypnotech ADVANCED MACKING Advanced Macking
has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.
http://www.advancedmacking.com
This one also looked pretty interesting. The link for more information on breakups
and loving-styles is http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/Tigress Success Secrets
Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business
& Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense
secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and
Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips;
Tax Secrets & Loopholes!
Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/prodeskcom
The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting.
Comments, please. http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/unicades Here's a new
one I found which needs to be reviewed: "Guys! Get More Pussy with our
Adult Personals Inside Secrets Guide! Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using
Personals for Sex The Guide contains the following Inside Secrets Replying to
ads - how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.
Placing ads - how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle
follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked
on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you
time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting
hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide
contains a list of the best adult personals sites."
http://secure.ibill.com/cgi-win/ccard/rscookie.exe?RevShareID=9804000000274976&
returnto=http://www.mysexinfo.com
Secrets of Power Persuasion! A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write
hypnotic language to make others obey your command.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/mrchange (if this doesn't work, try this:
http://www.mrchange.com/?hop=cliffslist.mrchange, but both worked for me) Arte's
New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman's
g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend - but I could have done
without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have
watched it again more carefully: http://amos.simonweb.com/loveebook/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=lrec
FREE PLUGS
The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from
them doesn't send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors
of these sites consider setting this up -- from the little experience I have
had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you
are missing a lot of business by not doing this) http://www.speed-seduction.com/
- The # 1 source; read the free newsletters & get the basic course.
http://www.trucor.com/ - Major Mark's site, the place to learn hypnosis and
about married women
http://www.essential-skills.com/ - learn anchoring, tonality, rapport, goal
getting, etc.
http://www.davidshade.com/ Give women incredible pleasure get David Shade's
Manual
http://www.fastseduction.com/ - great resource, a must visit http://www.sosuave.com/
- lots of free materials, many good ideas and articles http://www.mindcontrolmanual.com/
- seduce men and women through the power of the mind
http://www.oscarbruce.com/ - All his books deal with perusasion, manipulation
and a mild form of seduction. Books like School for Scoundrels focus on getting
your way with people and getting them to see things your way.
http://www.pickupguide.com - Maniac High's PUA Archive http://www.seductionnow.com
- This site has a lot of links and it contains pretty much all that an aspiring
PUA needs to know.
Get on Mystery's Lounge - send him an email at [email protected] (note
this new email address) with REQUEST MEMBERSHIP in the subject line.
Include your REAL name, your experience, background in the PUA, some online
PUA's who can vouch for you (references), and a real pic of yourself. If you
do not wish to give this REAL information, don't join. Only the PRO's are in
there anyways - we discuss lots of stuff but it's the REAL pix of our conquests
and the fact that we don't HIDE who we are to each other that makes it appealing.
MANY of the members Mystery has personally sarged with.
The rule is simple don't fuck up anyone's game. If you can abide by that and
have a track record for contributing, then that's basically good as gold. Pix
are a requirement, however. The Lounge is in many ways an EXTENSION of Cliff's
List and is not an alternative. You don't have to be a PRO, but you MUST play
the game. If you are only WANTING to ONE DAY chase skirts, please don't bother
joining.
http://www.mysterymethod.com/ - Mystery offers MM in-field training with his
3 day workshop, Sex Magic in several cities. Learn how to put women under your
spell by Mystery himself. Need to learn how to approach groups of people and
have solid material to fill the silence? Click now for more info & to sign
up.
Playerware which is designed specifically for men who like to date and interact
with a large number of women. The program is essentially an electronic chick
organizer. It contains features such as contact management, photo storage, an
electronic journal, a sophisticated rating and comparison system, date/interaction
tracking, as well as other unique features. Visit the site and you can get a
40 day free trial. Full registration is currently only
$15. http://www.playerware.com/default.asp?refid=10
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New Links to be explored (WE NEED THESE REVIEWED!): 1) The website reads as
follows and we need someone's review of this: "Impress everybody! Make
your life happen on purpose! Matthew Whiting an English and Psychology graduate
from Canterbury University and later a graduate of The National Academy of Performing
Arts, has created this revolutionary step-by-step training system which will
give you the means to becoming irresistibly attractive. Hence enabling you to
gain the relationship and life that you want. Whether it is on stage or in real
life we all know the "x" factor when we see it! But can we produce
our own individual "x factor"? In this book Matthew Whiting's radical
new approach to "being irresistibly attractive" will show you how
to: Master these personal strategies to become more Charismatic: · Learn
how to be master of your own intention · Taking action
· Being a successful leader
· Learning confidence
· ...and a lot more...
Master these personal strategies for more Passion: · How to be funny
· Leaving a lasting impression
· How to utilize the power of speech
· Extraordinary kissing
· Flirting - a delightful, innocent, and respectful way to play with
each other!
· ...and a lot more...(18 Chapters in total!) This book is jam-packed
with tonnes of information, (185 A4-size pages). It is written in a tongue-in-cheek
manner which is easy to follow, and you are sure to enjoy. Once you experience
the marvelous changes that Matthew Whiting enables you to make, you can shape
your relationships and other life circumstances exactly as you'd like them to
be." http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/unicades 2) How to create sexual
chemistry! This one looks interesting -- we need a review!
http://www.attractwomennow.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi/Cliffslist 3)
Welcome to CheekyCherry.co.uk, home of what has been called the bible of 'attracting
women, keeping them and sleeping with them'.
http://www.cheekycherry.co.uk/Main_categories/seduction_and_dating/dating_guide.html
4) Courses for women to seduce men!
http://www.ihrt.co.uk/seductionsystems/text%20gals.htm 5) Guys Guide to Girls
- A guide to relationships. How to overcome shyness and understand your partner...
http://www.philipov.com/guys1.htm 6) Wally's Seduction Tips for Desperate Bachelors
http://www.wallyandmurk.com/wally/sedution/Wallymag.html 7) Help with seduction
- for women who want to seduce men.
http://www.seducehim.com/
8) The website reads as follows and we need someone's review of this: "Ladies!
Never date a stranger unless you've checked him out first!
Fortunately, a basic background check is an easy thing to do, via the telephone
and the Internet. In just a matter of minutes, you can find out a great deal
on your own about any potential date (or even your fiance' or husband) using
the simple, free background check techniques described in our new "how-to"
manual.
CHECK HIM OUT FIRST! "Check Him Out! - The American Woman's Guide to Background
Investigations" guides you through the entire background check process
using clear, nontechnical language. You'll be amazed to learn that there's a
lot that can be done just by using the telephone intelligently!
Without even touching a computer, you can usually verify someone's name, address,
age, occupation, and even marital status over the telephone if you know which
government public records office to call and what information to ask for. "Check
Him Out!" is written for you -- the American woman with no knowledge of
public records and background checks, but with a need to do some quick basic
checking. It's easy to follow, and while it won't make you a seasoned "gumshoe,"
it will make you quite knowledgeable about the subject and will teach you all
you need to know to conduct a thorough basic background check on your own --
plus, it will show you where and how to get competent, reasonably priced help
if you later decide you want a more complex, in-depth background check done.
All this for $11.95 is hard to beat!" http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/washres
9) For those of you interested in being a bigger man, check out: http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/yourown/bigdickie.htm
10)What Every Man Should Know About Women! Learn the secrets to getting more
dates
than you thought were possible in the year 2001. What works, and what doesn't
work. How to spend less money and less time, to meet more women, and get more
dates. Self-Improvement skills for single men is what this material is all about!
Don't waste your time and money, get the facts on how to find Love efficiently
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