I'm hungry, I'm going to eat

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This is Cliff's Private List, a free e-mail relating to seduction. Your comments are requested, encouraged, and greatly appreciated (note that comments from people commenting are separated by IIIIIIII) . If you know anyone who would like to be added to the list to receive this, or if you would like to be removed from the list, send an e-mail (or hit "Reply") asking to be removed to [email protected] and it will be done (I have had some problems receiving emails lately, and you might be well advised to also address a "cc" of your email to me at [email protected] ). Please note that the [email protected] address will eventually change, so it would be best to keep sending emails to the other two addresses only. If you would like to be added to the free joke list, just ask. For those of you unfamiliar with the references to Speed Seduction, we highly recommend your visiting http://www.speed-seduction.com/

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Ross: (Commenting on: "For the more mature girls, you don't really need to tease them. Usually you don't need to go beyond a little bit of play fighting, and if you tease them too much, they might start taking you seriously, and actually take offence. So for those girls (the mature ones), use everything that Ross has to offer them + some good intelligent conversation. Note how Ross treats his girls like adults, I never once heard him go into the bratty sister frame. This is mostly because he's screwing around with mature girls. Do you think that a 17-18 year old chick will understand half the shit he's spewing? She'll usually go "huh", because 1) she doesn't care so much to experience the 'wonderful connections' as she'd rather just have fun and 2) she hasn't been on this Earth long enough to appreciate what's truly rare, so she cannot appreciate you ; )."):

You are entirely correct. I agree; and I've been playing with the bratty little sister frame for the super-young ones, just to see what happens and they eat it up. I would NEVER use it on someone out of their teens. I've never said this frame doesn't work. I've simply pointed out the type of person it works on and asked if that was worth the candle.

(Commenting on: "She showed us her boots (they were those really long boots), and when she accidently hit me I said "Damn it, why do you have to bring your work boots into the car?" (implying that she was a hoe)"):

Ha ha ha. Work boots. Dude, you are a comic mastermind! HA HA HA! LOL!

(Commenting on: "as soon as you can decide what kind of girl you're dealing with, you should know whose material to use. If she's a young, fun loving, immature girl, use Mystery's stuff (and Sisonpyh's somewhat), but if she's well read, can carry on a very intelligent conversation, and is more experienced, practice your SS. Because really, can you see Mystery sitting at a coffee table for 2 hours, discussing existentialism with a philosophy graduate (no offence to you at all Mys, as I know you're very intelligent, but I'm saying that this isn't the type of girl you'd go for), and can you see Ross in a nightclub impressing the 20 year old ladies with his dance moves? (Again, no offence to you Ross, I'm just saying you wouldn't care so much for that night life us teenagers love so much ; ) )."):

No offense taken. Your points, however, ARE well taken. Actually, I'm pretty wild on the dance floor. I just won't go without a young woman with me as a stamp of social approval! What's a 43 year old guy doing in a dance club for young people by himself? CHICKEN-HAWK. However, with a young lovely on my arm, suddenly I have a backstage pass, so to speak. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you, Lea. Thank you, Alete. (Ok..Alete is my niece!)

(Commenting on: "You can't say that one system is better then another, or that one is too simple, or that the other is too complicated. You just have to know what kind of furniture you're making, to know what tools you need to use. ; )

Completely correct. My objection has always been those "gurus" who proclaim that women are "genetically programmed" to respond a certain way, etc. etc.
etc. In other words, those who don't emphasize looking at the individual person in front of you instead of following a blanket generalization.
Beyond that, this genetic programming crap is sloppy, even wrong science.
Check out www.brucelipton.com. I've learned that genes don't do anything by themselves; they have to be activated, and beyond that, genes can be rewritten as an intelligent response to environment.

(Commenting on: "So what does this have to do with seducing women? Glad you asked. It's easy to see from this that no one style of fighting is perfect or the best. Certain styles work better under certain circumstances.
Recently I re-read through Cliffs previous mailings going back thru last year. So the running arguments of the past about SS, MM, Sis's techniques, the use of patterns, etc., were fresh in my brain. What occurred to me was that these major "styles" of PU were like the different styles of martial arts. Let's say for the purpose of discussion that Ross's SS is like the hard style of Karate or Tae Kwon Do. He uses the patterns to strike right at the subconscious mind and desires of his "victim" (not really a victim, just being congruent with the metaphor I am using). Sis's style is more soft oriented using his "opponents" weakness (insecurity) and strength (desire for control) against her. Mystery's could be likened to Ju-Jitsu's ground grappling techniques, he goes for it in the high pressure, high distraction club scene and demonstrates social proof and alpha male characteristics right in front of the target, sometimes wrestling directly with her, sometimes ignoring or neg hitting her until he's ready to make his move. (I've watched my instructor grapple with students, often letting them have the upper hand for awhile, conserving his strength and waiting for an opening to exploit while they expend their energy.)"):

I agree with all of this and I appreciate the martial arts metaphor, having used it myself. You are of course, correct. What is important is finding what works. I have NEVER said that other approaches have no value. I wonder, to what extent, the approaches of other "teachers" lack in their "transmitability"; that is, can they REALLY be pulled off by a student who does not have that teacher's looks, personality, unique talents, lifestyle?
That's one of my main critiques of Mys and Sis (hey...that rhymes!). Mys, for example, for all his correct principles of social proof, disarming obstacles, demonstrating personality, etc, HIGHLY DEPENDS ON MAGIC TRICKS TO GET ATTENTION. In fact, I have it on the inside source that he has that performer persona tied to using magic to get attention in clubs and that this is key to almost all his approaches.
Sis, for example, is extremely good looking, lives in a giant party house(or at least he did, rumour is he is now in Vegas with Rick H.), drives a flashy, late-model car, etc. etc. etc. He is also right on with his stuff on the bratty little sister frame.
By contrast, I am an ugly,old fart. The only thing I might have going for me, as far as natural gifts, is that I'm funny. THAT'S IT. Everything else is something I developed, and if I can do it, so can you.

(Commenting on: "Even within the major PU arts there can be different "schools" of approaches of applying the technique. For example, Brother Riker's application of SS to online personals. The implications for newer students like myself is that while I may want to master a certain style like SS I should try as much as possible to "cross train" and at least learn the basics of the other styles. That would give me the best chance of success, no matter what situation I find myself in(cafe, party, club, etc.). That is why though Ross is my main "Sensei" I pay close attention to what the other masters post here to learn as much as I can about the other styles."):

As well you should!

(Commenting on: "Cliff floated the idea of pulling together the various masters and students to discuss there techniques in Montreal. We should all be enthusiastically supporting this idea. Can you imagine attending an event with martial arts masters in the various disciplines teaching you there favorite moves? You would probably feel you could kick any non-practitioners ass if you had too. Now imagine doing the same thing with seduction masters and star students. The HB's wouldn't stand a chance! So Cliff if you are still interested in hosting such an event, count me in. I will do whatever it takes to be there.
I'm glad that Ross, Sis, and Mystery are not masters of each others styles as well as their own. They would be getting laid so much they wouldn't have any time to contribute to this list!"):

Ha ha. You don't know how seminars and huge egos work together. Trust me, I do. THERE NEEDS TO BE STRICT CONTROLS ON BEHAVIOR.
I'd be open to the idea if I had a day entirely to myself with none of the other "experts" in attendance. The other rule should be a written agreement that none of the masters or teachers will make ANY negative comment on the others' systems, either during official portion of events or off hours, during breaks, etc. etc etc.

Cliff's Comment: I absolutely agree that if this conference or seminar were held that there would have to be certain "rules" that everyone would agree to. My idea was that it would be less a teaching seminar as a more relaxed, social thing -- instead of someone (like Ross) spending a full day teaching, I thought it might be an idea to have the various "guru's" come and talk for 1-3 hours each where they basically explain some of their "better" (or whatever they are willing to share) tips. The main "control" would be that as it is somewhat based on these emails, it would be focused on issues, facts, tactics, etc. and NOT on personalities. There would be a conscious effort made to deal with concepts and no negative comments other than constructive criticism. I can hear Ross laughing in the back of my head as I write this thinking to himself ("In your dreams!") but I would still like to give it a shot. And while I can see that if someone were to do a full day that they wouldn't want the other experts to be there, the idea again comes back to the way this list is done and that is that what you would present you are presenting to anyone who reads/attends. Part of the idea is that (and, again, forgive me if my naivete makes you barf) there may be something to learn from a non-judgemental exchange of ideas between the skilled and knowledgeable parties. Masters, teachers, experts and guru's reading this could be interested in participating please let me know.

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James:
I need to get a consensus from the readers here. Those of you may get a kick out of watching a newly released "B" movie called Shallow Hal. In this movie, the main character named Hal is this guy who is totally into how a chyck looks, and has his fair share of strikeouts. He gets dumped by a hottie he went out with named Jill (played by Susan Ward). As the movie progresses, Tony Robbins makes an appearance as himself, where he hypnotizes the main character (Hal) into only seeing the inner beauty of a woman. As a result, Hal ends up getting really hot and heavy (no pun intended) with a fat chyck, and an extremely heavy one at that. He is totally smitten by her, and Jill notices them together and how he is totally into her, so she in turn ends up wanting Hal again. I have asked about the idea of social proof with other bros. up in Montreal, and simply having a photo of a hottie in your wallet is not real social proof, does not count nearly as much as actually having the chyck on your arm when you go to places. My question here is: Is being seen in public with a lesser attractive chyck on your arm when you go places just as good as having a 10+ in terms of social proof? or would you be better off being seen alone? or would it be better to be seen with a 10?

Cliff's Comment: From what you wrote above, it seems that the key element is not as much being seen with a hot chick as it is being seen with a chick who is totally into you.

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Stephane:
My Criteria for a chyck:
1. Committed to personal growth
2. Emotional openness
3. Honesty and integrity
4. Mature and responsible
5. High self-esteem
6. Positive attitude towards life
7. Spiritual
8. Extreme sense of humor
9. Sexually adventurous

PHYSICAL
Pretty, nice body, cares about her appearance. Dresses nicely, not too much makeup, etc. Clean and smells good. Takes care of health, doesn't eat like a pig! Works out and is good to her own body. Pleasant tone of voice is a must.

EMOTIONAL
Affectionate, warm, smiling most of the time, can demonstrate full emotional range. Lets her feelings flow. Instead of holding on to negative emotions, she lets them move through her body quickly. Crying during sappy movies is a definite plus! She is self-aware and has control over her emotions. She doesn't worry she solves the problem. Able to laugh at many things, including herself. She has enough personal strength to be vulnerable. She can express how she feels easily. She can be silly, child-like.

SOCIAL
Warm and friendly. Outgoing, within reason. Courageous and considerate. Easily gets along with all kinds of people, regardless of race, status, etc. If she flirts with my friends, she is history.

SEXUAL
Bisexual. Sexually adventurous. Passionate, sensual, sexy and affectionate. Enjoys sex, no hang-ups. Is easily aroused, and takes responsibility for her own pleasure.
She is a sensitive and skilled lover. She must be a willing and dedicated participant in the Steph Blowjob Training Program.

SPIRITUAL
Believes in Karma. Believes in reincarnation. Does not fear death, views death as a graduation. Would rather sleep in and fuck on a Sunday morning instead of going to church.

PERSONALITY
This is a girl who can laugh at anything, because feeling good is more important than feeling righteous. She mustn't take life or herself too seriously. Jealousy and possessiveness are out. This girl is a pleaser, she'll do anything for me.

PROFESSIONAL
Works hard, but not too hard. She can be a cashier, or a doctor, it doesn't matter as long as she works and doesn't come home and whine about it all night. She must be careful with money and credit cards. She cannot be a stripper, a lawyer, or a bartender. She has to be responsible and logical when it comes to finances, and practicality is a must. No shop-a-holics please!

BASIC BELIEFS
She must believe that people are basically good, that she is responsible for her own happiness, and that sex and love can be separate things. Has the ability to look at her own model of the world objectively.

CHILDREN AND MARRIAGE
Believes that relationships can be like a fine wine - they get better with time. Understands that being a good parent involves getting out of their way and letting them make their own mistakes. Understands that listening to your children is a higher value than controlling them.

ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS TO ASK MYSELF JUST TO BE SURE 1- Am I proud of her?
2- Does she satisfy me sexually?
3- What am I learning from her?
4- Does she have her courage and consideration in balance?
5- Does being with her make my life easier and more enjoyable?
6- Does she go out of her way to please me for no reason?
7- Does she take responsibility for her own feelings, communication, and life?
8- Does being with her feel right?
Do I have the upper-hand in the relationship?

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Mark B.:
(Commenting on: "Everyone on this planet has a different footprint. I still don't
understand why guys are trying so hard to be unique. Because all I have to do is SHOW UP! You guys are thinking too much"):

Woody Allen said that 80% of all success is the ability to show up. I think that is the case most certainly and the key is to go for what you want while having showed up. The best approach I found is to allow what is inside you to fully emerge just like being yourself. It's almost like paying attention to your inner most thoughts and feelings and then letting them out regardless of whether they are appropriate or not.

(Commenting on: "The most important thing I have ever learned is to stop caring about what
other people think. Do I ever put my foot in my mouth? You bet! But who cares, as long as I am having fun and learning. Learning this was easy, because in order to engage in the activity of caring what they think you have to do something inside your head. Caring what they think is a verb, it's a skill. The way I did it was I would stop and see myself through other people's eyes. That was the main thing that was responsible for 99% of my hesitation."):

I found the best way is to imagine that whatever you say people will not take seriously or as a joke. This tends to negate for me the possible ramifications of whatever I may say to someone. It's an attitude where I feel that whatever I do, people will be able to take it. My hesitation in the past was a function of fearing that my actions would offend a woman and put her in an uncomfortable state. But as I learned that they can take almost anything you say to them, you no longer have to fear their reaction.
I do not believe you can never really stop to care what people think because if that was the case then you could easily walk up to the fattest woman you see on the street and tell her she is a fat slob in her face. But why would you do that? I think the key is to think of the impact that what you say to people will have on them - the smaller the impact the less you have to be concerned about their reaction.
I had my first date with a woman this weekend in about 5 weeks. 5 weeks due to my mental and emotional state in which I had no desire to date or do any pursuing. I blew it by forgetting the cardinal rule of keeping control and not letting her call most of the shots. Sometimes we need to fall on our face to be reminded of what works and what does not work. Be better next time........

Question: There is a school of thought that men should only listen to women's problems and not be solvers of them because women want men to empathize with them rather than offer solutions because by being a solver you become a part of the problem. Another school of thought suggests that we give women leadership, focus and direction which implies giving her direction and thus becoming a solution provider to her.
So we want to be empathetic yet leaders, focus and solution providers.
I find giving leadership works better even if we risk having her feel not heard.
If anyone has any strong opinions on this please make them known.

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Jake Hustler:
BREAKTHROUGH!: Guys I don't know if you know about this or not. But if any of you are familiar with hotmail "messenger", then perhaps you'll discover that you can actually "ring" another person who is online and "talk" to them, just like a normal phone conversation, even if they are overseas. For FREE! There is no charges! This will be so good for practice! We can actually help each other in voice! My sister talked to her friend in China for 3 hours and wasn't charged a cent! What are your thoughts?

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Ciz:
While everyone agrees that chicks should only be sarged consensually, there is a growing problem in the United States of false rape allegations. The more girls one has sex with, the more exposure to bogus allegations one faces. Prosecutorial and police overzealousness (not to mention frame ups), the prison industry ever so willing to build more and fill their space, mandatory minimum sentencing, and the fact that the evidentiary standard is her word against yours, what does an honest and law abiding PUA do to limit criminal liability exposure to false rape allegations?
Even if her allegations are obviously bogus upon close inspection, mere probable cause is required in order to charge a case, in which a victimized defendant can be held on an unreasonable bail only to wait months to several years for a trial -- tens of thousands of $$$ attorney's fees paid for by the defendant if he wants bona fide defense representation. And juries can and do make mistakes -- they are notoriously unreliable.
A jealous boyfriend has many a times forced his girlfriend to file a bogus rape charge. A "moral" girl gets buyers remorse after having consensual sex. It's out there in many cases, read your state's appellate reports. The girl has been banging tons of guys and is a total ho -- doesn't matter due to the rape shield laws. You have had sex with her before -- inadmissible as well under the rape shield law. The girl has consensual sex, is subsequently "counseled," and the next thing you know you're a criminal defendant. The girl is drinking, picks up you and is actually the one doing the sarging, and you get charged with a crime. Any one of these things can happen to anyone here. It's scary.
Is the only answer to videotape the girl notarizing a document agreeing to consensual sex?

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Gregory Rasputin:
This is a guide to a Speed Seduction style called GM (Grand Master). Most SS resources make a slight mention of GM, but they never explain it, because it doesn't seem complex/intelligent enough. If you look for GM instructions all you'll find will be just funny pick up lines. I think you shouldn't use those lines yet, for one main reason: when you carry out that cocky and funny line, you will make a woman laugh (provided you pull it off right), but after this line, she will be expecting this funny cocky guy.
The GM pick up line, is a line that's supposed to represent your personality. You're a straight up, funny, sex loving guy. So, if you're not what
the line presents you to be, you're gonna disappoint your girl when she gets to know you.
GM isn't just the funny pick up line. It's a way of talking to people, a way of living, a
way to lead a relationship, a way to dump a girl. It's a personality, and it's an attitude.
A GM does everything in an amusing, and cocky way. He's not trying to learn something about
the girl, or get a deep connection with her, he wants to have fun with her, and make her laugh.
My friend, who is a great example of GM doesn't even have very creative pick up lines. He comes up to them, and just asks for sex. The expression on his face is completely straight.
If you want to practice this, then picture yourself saying "let's go to work". Say it, with
the unmotivated expression on your face, and the dry monotone voice. And now, in exactly the
same way say, "Let's have sex over there". His attitude is built on the foundation of knowing
that women are just objects. They're toys, and are property, hurting them doesn't matter as
long as it doesn't somehow indirectly hurt him. He dumps women with the same way he
approaches them. He's funny and cocky, and of course this hurts them.
An example would be a girl he met at the mall, made out with, got her #, and of course never called. 2 months later she calls him, bitching "why didn't you call me for so long? who the fuck do you think you are?" He replied with that same tone and voice I mentioned earlier, by saying "well you see, the thing is" and then he hung up. She phoned back screaming, and he didn't even
flinch, just replied with the same tone "you didn't let me finish. As I've said before and
will say again" and then he hung up. This was rude, and egocentric, but it was hilarious!
I'm not saying that you should be doing this, because maybe you're this totally sweet guy who
can't do that to a girl, but I'm showing this as an example of his personality. He doesn't
just say the line and is a totally different guy, he is that funny line.
His purpose in life
is to have as much sex as possible, and be funny. Another example of his attitude is a girl he
was dating a couple of months ago. At a point in the 'relationship' he said this to her: "when
you're not around me, you can do whatever you want, and whoever you want, but when you're with me, your pussy is mine". 1) it's funny. Why is it funny? because he is saying what every guy thinks. When you tell the truth completely how it is, it's funny. 2) it's so unbelievably
cocky. He's making the rules, and actually says he owns her pussy, and 3) it's confident.
He isn't thinking "what if she's offended". He doesn't give a shit, if she doesn't like how he
thinks she can go to hell. EVERY girl is replaceable.
Now, he's not an asshole to girls. People often confuse being an asshole with being fun.
First of all, he makes them feel special. An example of that would be when he tells a girl
on the phone "Oh my God, I missed you so much. See when I walk around I pretend like you're there. Like, my mind has actually created an image of you beside me. I'd be like 'come on, Sarah, let's go inside', people would look strangely at me and say 'uh..man, there's no one there', and I'd just choose not to hear that and keep talking to you", the girl would always crack up. Of course she knows he's talking bullshit, but he's not really trying to pass it off
as the truth, he's just making a joke about how special she is to him.
Wouldn't you feel great
if a girl started jokingly telling you about how she talks to air pretending like she's talking to
you?
This behaviour is the core of GM. Remember that humor adds effect to something. It can
make a compliment much more meaningful, makes you look more confident. Do you think she
would've even cared if he just said "hey I missed you so much, I'm glad I'm finally talking
to you"? Another example of how he would be sweet to women: the funny thing is that sometimes he just chooses not to listen to girls when they are speaking. He says that when they talk he'd make pictures in his head of all these cool basketball tricks he does. So this one time I remember he got caught by a girl, and she said "did you hear a single word of what I just
said?" He'd blink a couple of times. Have a totally rock-like expression on his face, and with
a strong but really monotone voice say "I'm sorry my dear, but I couldn't concentrate on what
you were saying, because your inner beauty inspired me to write a song for you while you were
talking" and he'd start very slowly, with the same tone singing a Backstreet Boys song. She
laughed, and I laughed even harder hearing about it. So, of course, this compliment was
bullshit, and it was obvious everyone knows it's bullshit, because after all he's singing a
Backstreet Boys song, but it was still funny because he was pretending that all he said was
true, and of course it was flattering, and the humor increased that effect.
Now this is a very
interesting way of complimenting, because it isn't supplicating, because after all he is
talking bullshit, but he still is complimenting her. I mean, the words do come out of his mouth,
and do assume a meaning in the girl's head. Here's one last example of his humor: this is
actually non-PU related: He put me on hold for too long, and I just said fuck it, and hung up.
So he calls back and leaves this message with that dry tone: "you've hung up on me, my friend,
but I do forgive you, so please call me back whenever you feel like it." This was so
obviously sarcastic, but it was still funny.
Now I'd also like to cover the little things. Start with an example. Me and this buddy were
playing ball, and invited a couple of chicks to play with us (we just met them there). I was
covering an 8 HB, but with the body of a 12, serious. I just couldn't concentrate on the game.
So I just said with the completely monotone voice "your ass is gonna distract me through the
whole game". She giggled. What if she didn't? I don't care, I said what was on my mind, I said
the truth. I wasn't trying to be a funny guy, or a confident guy or anything. I just said what
was on my mind. I wasn't really rude. I mean, yes, there was sexual innuendo, but it wasn't
sick in any way. I just said it the way I'd say "I'm hungry, I'm going to eat", and went on
with the game. I didn't talk more about her ass, or body. It was just that one comment. After
the game I started talking to her. I showed her what a great guy I am, by starting a
conversation about where she came from. It was fluff talk, and it was obvious to both of us
that we were fluffing. But I built my foundation right away with that comment. Even when we
were fluffing, she knew I'm the kind of guy who's capable of appreciating her body, and yet I
was showing that I'm completely normal. I didn't compliment/supplicate in the conversation at
all. I was talking to her the way I'd be talking to a buddy about an interesting book. About
two hours after that I pinched her ass, and when she looked at me, I looked back with this
questioning look as if I don't get why she's looking at me like that. She asked "what was
that?" I said "my hand slipped".
A point about appearance: sometimes I see people walking by and they're a little
hunched, and walk quickly, almost as if in a hurry. You absolutely cannot walk this way.
My GM buddy is noticed just by the way he walks. He walks slowly, shoulders thrown back.
He doesn't just walk, he struts. Imagine the power you'd be walking with if you were the
King of France walking on a red carpet, made just for you, looking down at all the little
people. A GM walks as if there's a red carpet layed out just for him.
Another important topic is how the GM treats women's bullshit. One time my buddy's girl
calls, and at a certain point she starts nagging him. You know how girls nag, and nag,
and just won't shut the fuck up? What he did was say "hey I'm sorry, can you hold on a sec",
and he put her on hold. I asked him what was up (I was in the room watching this), and he
said with a sarcastic dry tone "she needs to cool off a little bit." He put her on hold
for 6-7 minutes, for no real reason. Then when he got back, she was actually a little quieter.
She was still yelling about how he looked the wrong way at some other girl or something, but
her tone was much more relaxed, and the way she was saying it; she wasn't bitching, just
bringing up a point. If a girl bullshits him, he doesn't flinch. Like I've said before, he
absolutely doesn't care, they can EASILY be replaced.

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Caco:
(Commenting on: "Stephane: Who cares what they think. They are just jealous. Flirting and fucking is your business, not theirs, just don't nail her right there on the dance floor."):

Precisely. What I realized later was that they all thought of me as some sorta flirt who was hitting on the females, but hey! They didn't come and stop me. It was only ME who was imagining them not approving of my actions, as the older people had given me a free hand initially by letting me chat on with the girl in front of them (no one bothered me with anything which I had been scared of). The real OBSTACLE was inside me not inside her.

(Commenting on: "WHO CARES about what she thinks! Want to know her deepest desires? She wants a man who is funny, romantic, and strong. Want to 'link them to you'? Guys always ask me how to do this, and I could never understand why. Obviously they are being waaaaayyyyy too covert to begin with."):

I totally agree. I must have reread this "want" a thousand times now, but I still think about this. I guess I should be more direct with my intentions, cuz women can always figure out your interest in them so why HIDE?

(Commenting on: "Everyone on this planet has a different footprint. I still don't understand why guys are trying so hard to be unique. Because all I have to do is SHOW UP! You guys are thinking too much."):

A fine point which comes to my mind is what separates beginners like me from the gurus is that when we enter a place and we survey the scene, the gurus think "TARGET" and they just go in without hesitation while (me, for e.g.) I see the guys there and a WARNING bell rings inside "COMPETITION." This makes me pretty hesitant and can throw me off my natural talkative mood. I might also compare myself to them and dis-qualify myself. Like, earlier if I saw a handsome guy talking to a female. I would think that the door was closed on me. Not ANY LONGER.

(Commenting on: "Cliff's Comment: Not everyone can be as unique as you, Stephane."):

Hey, though I DO agree, but if I get the pussy then who CARES if I'm just an AVERAGE Joe?

(Commenting on: "Again, you're too concerned with what everybody thinks.
But if you say what's on your mind without filters you won't ever run out of shit to say, especially if you put yourself in a powerful state before you go out, and maintain it."):

This is something which has great meaning for me.
I come from a background due to which I had immense problems earlier on in my life. As a result, I became a total extrovert but at the same time, I would be afraid of talking to the hotties in high school simply because of the Gremlin in my mind: "What if they found out what my background was? What if they found out about my past? What if they realized that I wouldn't fit into their high society mold?" The list is endless but these what-ifs almost killed me inside. At the same time, I was an extrovert who could talk for HOURS without any particular topic and still not make it boring.
After finding ASF and then Cliff's list, another gremlin appeared."What if this sounds like a jerk? What if she views this as being supplicating? What if this conveys a sense of being weak?" Another set of self limiting beliefs has arisen to replace the old one, but the hesitation remains.
Although I do break out of it every now and then. But this hesitation which came out of analysis of where my actions cannot go is also due to my spending too much time on-line be it personals, chatting, or even reading ASF. It's time for me to figure out what I want and go out there and then IN RETROSPECT figure out what conveyed what. Doing this while talking fucks my game.With my vacations coming up soon, it's time for a sabbatical from the net and time for some LIVE action. Just ME out there without any extra mental baggage or hang ups.

(Commenting on: "Who CARES what she wants? FORGET what she thinks! Do you honestly think that an 18-22 year-old little girl knows what is good for her?! PUH-LEEZE! Ross said something that really stuck with me. The most powerful word you can use on a woman is the word NO."):

Yeah, one of the good things I have started doing with women recently is telling them I have a life of my own separate from them. Earlier, I would go out of my way to be with them, meet them, blah blah...but now the more I respect my time .. the more they respect me.

(Commenting on: "[snip]> YOUR values. The one's I learned to say are Honesty, Trust, and Respect (in that order)..."):

Honesty is something which comes through a lot in your posts. Is this what you would call total congruence?

(Commenting on: "If you want to see clear, focused images, you need to add in the dimension of feelings and sound. For example, picture a blender in your mind. Now turn on the blender and hear it VVVVVVVVVVV!! See? Now physically put your hands out and feel the blender as it rumbles and shakes like crazy."):

Agreed. What I think also goes on is that maybe for some people who are not too visual, a plain picture not involving the other senses will not work at all. They need to put in elements like sound and smell to make it more complete and more effective for them.

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PRODUCTS AND LINKS (There's some NEW STUFF in here, and I will try and put something new in here as often as possible):

For those of you who are just reading about this for the first time, I decided a couple of emails ago to add links to these emails. The idea would be to get enough money in to hire someone to take over the administrative work (and also to buy things which would improve this list, such as proper mailing list software) for this list. If you were going to buy the product anyway, just use the link that appears below and you are helping to keep this list going at no extra cost to anyone.

NON SEDUCTION-RELATED SITES
One of the more useful links I have set up is to amazon.com -- I know I buy a lot from them and I am sure that many of you also do. So I arranged a link with them and you can now buy from them and help out this email newsletter at the same time. If anyone has any other suggestions of sites that would be a good one for me to set up a link to, please let me know.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/nositeihaveap-20 For those in the U.K., this should work: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=cliffslist-21&site=amazon Here's a way for you to accept credit cards on your site today: http://zzz.clickbank.net/r/?cliffslist

RECOMMENDED LIST
DOUBLE YOUR DATING One of the best places for you to start your journey on becoming more successful with women would be to get David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating e-book. David (who posts here under the name "Sisonpyh" -- which is "hypnosis" spelled backwards) is a good friend that I have known for several years now that I originally met through one of Ross's Speed Seduction seminars. His posts here have been among the most outstanding contributions I have had over the years and his book (and the free bonuses) is highly recommended. http://www.doubleyourdating.com/cl/ HOW TO SUCCEED WITH WOMEN Ron Louis and David Copeland have been reading these emails for awhile and recently sent me their Mastery Program Tape series which I have finished listening to. It has some very good stuff on it and that, in combination with other pieces that you can pick up here and from the other products mentioned can be a help. For those who are just starting out learning how to deal with women, this is an excellent basic daily course to take you through the process of dealing with women. For those who are more advanced, you should pick up a few good ideas from this set of tapes.
http://www.howtosucceedwithwomen.com/cgi-bin/at.cgi?a=169700 SEVEN MAGIC WORDS
Comments on this product from Tony B.:
I thought I might drop you a quick line regarding some of the more popular sites that have been seen within this "seduction community." After seeing several terrible reviews and "flames" from alt.seduction.fast, I decided to make a decision for myself based upon my own ideas of what could be offered on the Seven Magic Words product and after several months of reading great novels about how to attract women and multiple posts about how women are most attracted to men, I STILL found the site to be beneficial. After joining the site, I was happy to learn all the new techniques that I have never seen on any list and that alone made it worth the money. I am not typically the type of person that spends money on a site especially a seduction site, I would rather pay for some audio or video, but the information that was offered was different and unequal to anything I have seen in the past. At any rate, I know you wanted a review.. and I have actually come to know the owner, and he puts more attention in his members area than I would expect to see from any other site.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/smackudown DATING INSIDER Not only does this next site give you an unconditional 1 year no risk money back guarantee, but it stands alone and it's program is unmatched. Right now they're doing a Free Trial period, and I'd take advantage of this while you can. The site reads "Learn the proven secrets for meeting, attracting, and seducing women. From A - Z, you'll discover the most advanced techniques for picking up women ever developed." Check out their Free Trial (before it ends) and you'll see why their members like this program so much. Click on
http://www.dating-insider.com/international/welcome.html.
How to Lay Girls Guide The ultimate SEDUCTION SECRETS database: http://www.layguide.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=Cliffslist

NEW RECOMMENDATIONS:
I have finished reading The Sexual Key and it is one of the best works I have read about understanding the language that women respond to. I give this a strong recommendation and the price is right, too. The book, and/or its companion book, Gut Instinct (which I will be reviewing) can be downloaded off the net for $39.97 each or $49.97 for both.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist.sexualkey

THE UNKNOWN! (Not reviewed)
HYPNO-TECH Here's another one which I think has been reviewed here in the past but I haven't gone through the old emails to check. "Do You Want To Know A Simple, Two Minute Hypnotic Technique That Lets YOU Secretly Put Any Woman Into An Instant Trance And Persuades Her To Ask YOU Out?
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/hypnotech ADVANCED MACKING Advanced Macking has one of the most enticing websites. An updated review would also be welcome.
http://links.verotel.com/cgi-bin/showsite.verotel?vercode=66629804000000274976 This one also looked pretty interesting. The link for more information on breakups and loving-styles is http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/Tigress Success Secrets Our free newsletter reveals it all Money and Personal Finance secrets; Business & Marketing secrets; Health, Fitness, and Weight-Loss advice; Self Defense secrets; Memory Improvement tips; Smart Advice on Flirting, Dating, Sex, and Relationships; Personal Development tips; Communication and Negotiation tips; Tax Secrets & Loopholes!
Investment and Stock Market tips; and Much More http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/prodeskcom The Ultimate Guide to Powerful Relationships is only $8.95 and looks very interesting. Comments, please. http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/unicades Here's a new one I found which needs to be reviewed: "Guys! Get More Pussy with our Adult Personals Inside Secrets Guide! Plus! Free Survey Results of Women Using Personals for Sex The Guide contains the following Inside Secrets Replying to ads - how to get noticed and get a date for hot sex.
Placing ads - how to beat the competition and get lots of replies How to handle follow up communication to keep her interested. Examples of replies that worked on us. You can just copy and paste these into your ads or replies. Saves you time and increases your chances! A directory of the best websites for meeting hot women! Sick of chicks who are only into cybersex and nothing else! The Guide contains a list of the best adult personals sites."
http://secure.ibill.com/cgi-win/ccard/rscookie.exe?RevShareID=9804000000274976& returnto=http://www.mysexinfo.com
Secrets of Power Persuasion! A course by Jian Wang to teach you how to write hypnotic language to make others obey your command.
http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/mrchange Arte's New Sex Video is kind of interesting. He shows a lot about playing with a woman's g spot (which he demonstrates on his comely girlfriend - but I could have done without seeing your dick, Arte). I will do a more extensive review after I have watched it again more carefully: http://amos.simonweb.com/loveebook/affiliates/clickthru.cgi?id=lrec HERE'S A NEW ONE
Suspect your spouse of cheating on you? Check this out http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/spouse1

FREE PLUGS
The following are all recommended but clicking on the links and buying from them doesn't send any money back here (it is also recommended that the sponsors of these sites consider setting this up -- from the little experience I have had since I started the commercial section a couple of weeks ago, I think you are missing a lot of business by not doing this) http://www.speed-seduction.com/ - The # 1 source; read the free newsletters & get the basic course.
http://www.trucor.com/ - Major Mark's site, the place to learn hypnosis and about married women
http://www.essential-skills.com/ - learn anchoring, tonality, rapport, goal getting, etc.
http://www.davidshade.com/ Give women incredible pleasure get David Shade's Manual
http://www.fastseduction.com/ - great resource, a must visit http://www.sosuave.com/ - lots of free materials, many good ideas and articles http://www.mindcontrolmanual.com/ - seduce men and women through the power of the mind
http://www.oscarbruce.com/ - All his books deal with perusasion, manipulation and a mild form of seduction. Books like School for Scoundrels focus on getting your way with people and getting them to see things your way.

Get on Mystery's Lounge - send him an email at [email protected] (note this new email address) with REQUEST MEMBERSHIP in the subject line.
Include your REAL name, your experience, background in the PUA, some online PUA's who can vouch for you (references), and a real pic of yourself. If you do not wish to give this REAL information, don't join. Only the PRO's are in there anyways - we discuss lots of stuff but it's the REAL pix of our conquests and the fact that we don't HIDE who we are to each other that makes it appealing. MANY of the members Mystery has personally sarged with.
The rule is simple don't fuck up anyone's game. If you can abide by that and have a track record for contributing, then that's basically good as gold. Pix are a requirement, however. The Lounge is in many ways an EXTENSION of Cliff's List and is not an alternative. You don't have to be a PRO, but you MUST play the game. If you are only WANTING to ONE DAY chase skirts, please don't bother joining.
Mystery is now offering his in-field Mystery Method (MM) BASIC TRAINING workshop in several cities. Click www.mysterymethod.com for more information, workshop locations, dates & to sign up.

Playerware which is designed specifically for men who like to date and interact with a large number of women. The program is essentially an electronic chick organizer. It contains features such as contact management, photo storage, an electronic journal, a sophisticated rating and comparison system, date/interaction tracking, as well as other unique features. Visit the site and you can get a 40 day free trial. Full registration is currently only $15. www.playerware.com

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New Links to be explored (WE NEED THESE REVIEWED!): 1) The website reads as follows and we need someone's review of this: "Impress everybody! Make your life happen on purpose! Matthew Whiting an English and Psychology graduate from Canterbury University and later a graduate of The National Academy of Performing Arts, has created this revolutionary step-by-step training system which will give you the means to becoming irresistibly attractive. Hence enabling you to gain the relationship and life that you want. Whether it is on stage or in real life we all know the "x" factor when we see it! But can we produce our own individual "x factor"? In this book Matthew Whiting's radical new approach to "being irresistibly attractive" will show you how to: Master these personal strategies to become more Charismatic: · Learn how to be master of your own intention · Taking action
· Being a successful leader
· Learning confidence
· ...and a lot more...
Master these personal strategies for more Passion: · How to be funny
· Leaving a lasting impression
· How to utilize the power of speech
· Extraordinary kissing
· Flirting - a delightful, innocent, and respectful way to play with each other!
· ...and a lot more...(18 Chapters in total!) This book is jam-packed with tonnes of information, (185 A4-size pages). It is written in a tongue-in-cheek manner which is easy to follow, and you are sure to enjoy. Once you experience the marvelous changes that Matthew Whiting enables you to make, you can shape your relationships and other life circumstances exactly as you'd like them to be." http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/unicades 2) How to create sexual chemistry! This one looks interesting -- we need a review!
http://www.attractwomennow.com/cgi-bin/affiliates/clickthru.cgi/Cliffslist 3) Welcome to CheekyCherry.co.uk, home of what has been called the bible of 'attracting women, keeping them and sleeping with them'.
http://www.cheekycherry.co.uk/Main_categories/seduction_and_dating/dating_guide.html 4) Courses for women to seduce men!
http://www.ihrt.co.uk/seductionsystems/text%20gals.htm 5) Guys Guide to Girls - A guide to relationships. How to overcome shyness and understand your partner... http://www.philipov.com/guys1.htm 6) Wally's Seduction Tips for Desperate Bachelors http://www.wallyandmurk.com/wally/sedution/Wallymag.html 7) Help with seduction - for women who want to seduce men.
http://www.seducehim.com/
8) The website reads as follows and we need someone's review of this: "Ladies! Never date a stranger unless you've checked him out first!
Fortunately, a basic background check is an easy thing to do, via the telephone and the Internet. In just a matter of minutes, you can find out a great deal on your own about any potential date (or even your fiance' or husband) using the simple, free background check techniques described in our new "how-to" manual.
CHECK HIM OUT FIRST! "Check Him Out! - The American Woman's Guide to Background Investigations" guides you through the entire background check process using clear, nontechnical language. You'll be amazed to learn that there's a lot that can be done just by using the telephone intelligently!
Without even touching a computer, you can usually verify someone's name, address, age, occupation, and even marital status over the telephone if you know which government public records office to call and what information to ask for. "Check Him Out!" is written for you -- the American woman with no knowledge of public records and background checks, but with a need to do some quick basic checking. It's easy to follow, and while it won't make you a seasoned "gumshoe," it will make you quite knowledgeable about the subject and will teach you all you need to know to conduct a thorough basic background check on your own -- plus, it will show you where and how to get competent, reasonably priced help if you later decide you want a more complex, in-depth background check done. All this for $11.95 is hard to beat!" http://hop.clickbank.net/?cliffslist/washres 9) For those of you interested in being a bigger man, check out: http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/yourown/bigdickie.htm