Q- What is your name and your position in the organization?

A- My name is Abdul Aziz Khan and I am working as Senior Joint Educational Advisor in the Ministry of Education. I have been working in the Ministry of Education on various posts since the last 25 years. My background of education is in science and I have specialized in Biology, but my training is in Planning & Financing. On the national level I do planning of the projects, planning of foreign assistance etc.

Q- My first question is about rote learning. What do you think is the role of rote learning in science education, particularly for in school context ?

A- Well rote learning specially in science subjects is a norm in Pakistan. Almost all the schools, I am not talking of the private educational institutions, but as far as the government institutions are concerned, as the other subjects are taught through rote learning and science education is no exception. There is reason and background for rote learning in science subjects, and the most important is that science teachers are not trained in science. In fact they do not have the background of science, they are not familiar with the inquiry directed approach in dealing with the science subjects. And that is why rote learning is going on in the science subjects in the majority of the schools of Pakistan. As you may already be knowing that there are about 8000 (Eight Thousand) secondary schools in Pakistan and almost 30% of them would not be having, either the trained science teachers or they would not be having the relevant laboratories as far as science subjects are concerned. There are instances where the teachers in Islamiat are teaching science subjects. In fact there is not much of pre-service or there is in-service which is going on. I think in order to discontinue the rote learning, specially in science subjects, it is very important that we have to have regular in service courses or the refresher courses. So this is the situation, I think which is prevailing in the Pakistani context.

Q- What do you think that the rote learning, it is helpful or it obstructs the students understanding and learning in science ?

A- No, I think that it does obstructs the learning of science, if you go by rote learning then it certainly obstructs, there is no doubt about it, because you know the very word science is inquiry, the inquiry transmission and so on and if you do it via rote learning, then I think the students, perhaps they are very good in as far as passing the examination is concerned, but when it comes to explaining the situation, explaining the things for themselves, they are handicapped, they cannot really explain the things. So my own experience is that rote learning, well to a certain extent is all right, for example learning the formulae, or learning some basic facts are all right, but when it comes to the rote learning on a mass scale in the science subjects I think it is very detrimental for the students.

Q- One of the main problem as you indicated is that our teachers are not properly trained or they have a good background about the science . What do you think that what is the contribution of examination in rote learning. Either our examination system is directing the students towards the rote learning or its directed towards open learning ?

A- I think you have raised a very important issue. Everything culminates the studies of student, culminate in the form of examinations. Our examinations are such that they are based on the rote learning. So whenever the questions are asked the student sorts of vomit out the information in the examination hall and then after few days they simply forget each and everything which they have learned. It does not really contribute as far as the improvement in knowledge is concerned. Examination I will tend to agree with you is the main reason, because if the examinations are inquiry directed, if the examinations have got plenty of objective type questions, then certainly the teachers will also be tilt to the same manner. So in fact its a triangle, I should say, the student, the examinations and the teachers, which have to eliminate the rote learning sustainable for such a long time.

Q- There is another factor which is about the curriculum and the syllabus. So what is the contribution at the present the curriculum and syllabus if you look at the aims and objectives. What do you think focuses on the rote learning or understanding ?

A- I think our curriculum is not bad really, you know specially in science subjects. Its not bad, I would go to the extent of saying that it is fairly balanced curriculum and it does not promote rote learning. In fact most of the teachers in the country, those who are teaching science, they would not even be knowing that what curriculum is. Curriculum is not bad. The delivery of the curriculum is of important consideration. What the students and the teachers get in hand are the lapse, what in hand they get are the text books , what they get in hand are the learning materials, supplementary reading materials and so on. So I think I will not really like to blame the curriculum because this has been in the process of development for quite some time. we started an exercise way back in 1985 in which we transformed the curriculum of science subjects and its fairly good, its inquiry directed and it has the ability to make the students learn the things but if the text books which are being developed are not of the standards then certainly they fall to the trap of rote learning.

Q- One thing you indicated about the text books, you said that they are not upto the standards. So what do you think that the laboratories and the equipment which are in the schools, they fulfill the requirements of the curriculum and the syllabus and the time which is divided for the practical and class room teaching?

A- Not all. Just as I mentioned in the beginning that about 30 % of our teachers and about same percentage of our laboratories would not be properly equipped to train the science students. In fact there are large number of schools where the laboratories do not exist at all. So laboratories are really not up to the mark, examination is certainly in the position that it does not ask the right type of the questions which would promote the science education. But the point is that not the large majority of the students offer sciences you know and perhaps there is less realization in this country I am afraid to say on the promotion of science. The budget on the education itself is very small. They are spending something like 2.2 of the GNP on education, which I think is perhaps the lowest in the South Asian region. And budget on the science education will still be smaller. So if we have more resources, then certainly we will like to develop labs, improve the examination system and provide the in service training to the teachers.

Q- As you indicated that there are three factors which indicate that the rote learning take place, one is the examination system, then the teachers training and books. So can you give me some suggestions which are in your mind or some recommendations. What do you think that how can we improve our education system, like examination system, teaching training and books. Any suggestions or recommendations ?

A- All these things cost money for example if you are going to reform the examination system, then you will have to train the persons who set up the papers . So you have to give them practical training to set up the question papers which will bring out the desired information which you want. You will also have to train the examiners who will really examine the scripts and do not simply give the marks on the textual material. Then at the same time we will have to have a built in mechanism for the teachers training program’s where the classical type of teachers training is not done but it is done in a scientific manner. That is proper type of questions are framed, proper type of training is provided. I think there is now growing awareness amongst the policy makers in Pakistan that if we want to bring out any change for the improvement of science it is better that we change a number of things in the examination system , in the teachers training and as well as the text books. So it is happening but as you know that education has a very long gestation period and the changes do not come over night. So I think slowly and gradually we are making efforts to ensure that better results come out and rote learning is if not eliminated, reduced to the possible extent.

A- Well all the researches indicate that rote learning is not good and the Pakistani Educationist and the Scientists they are not certainly oblivious to this situation, they know that it is not a good thing, because at the end of the day they do not get as much as dividend out of rote learning as they would really get if it was properly done in a scientific manner. So everybody the educationists and at all levels know it and there are serious efforts as I indicated are being made. I mentioned to you about a science education project which was launched in 1985 , it has been successfully completed wherein we have provided 1000 labs with equipment . We have been able to develop the teaching kits , we have been able to provide training to a large number of master trainers , the curriculum has been improved you know what ever it was and the books have also been sort of improved. So this was not enough, so what we have done is we are bringing in yet another project which is about 50 million dollars worth of project and which will last for 5 years . So that will itself also take into consideration another 1000 labs then it will create about 3000 to 4000 master trainers so that they could in their own turn be able to provide further training to the teachers . We are specially and now the situation may not be as bad in the urban areas as it is in the rural areas. We are thinking of the concept of satellites , now naturally if there are 10 schools in the rural area which are secondary schools each one of them cannot be furnished with the scientific equipment , each one of them cannot have the right type of the teachers for teaching the science . So what we are doing is that we are taking one school which is strong in all these things and we will be calling it a nucleus school and then the teachers and the students from the various other schools which are within the area could come to that school and then they will be in a better position to do the experiments, learn the things, learn the concepts and can go back to their schools. The next thing which we are doing is we are trying to promote more and more low cost material, because Pakistan has to spend lot of money on the import of science equipment. So what we are really concentrating on and paying attention on is developing low cost material. I have seen in a number of countries, where they learn science by doing and they develop some material themselves. So this is another thing which we are doing . We have an institution if you are familiar with , which is called NEEC (National Education Equipment Centre ) in Lahore now they are an agency of the government which produces the proto type of scientific equipment. Now that proto type is given to the private manufacturers and then its produced in a mass scale . The job of the NEEC is only to control the quality. If they are going to have a, say for example an overhead projector then they would ensure that what is the power of the lens , what is the distance of the disc , what sort of lenses are placed and things like that. So this is really helping us a lot in achieving our objectives that is cheaper in-expensive equipment is being made available . We are spending less and less foreign exchange . This is am talking only with reference to the equipment in the science schools. So these are some of the broad things which we are doing for the improvement of science and which would be you know slightly away from the concept of rote learning.

Salem: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR COOPERATION