=scb18*.
Input of R. Shlomo Carlebach Typescript B18
Dated 3/16/72
Place not noted
Transcriber not noted


Working docname:  =scb13# , where # is sequential version number.
Final title to be:  sc_b13
Notes to be Deep_6'd to =scsab13

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I am greatful to Miriam Gal-Or for having responsibly mailed me
this and the other RSC manuscripts and typescripts in my Moshav
Mevo Modi'in Collection in Doberdane Estates House #101,
which is a copy a BZ Collection, which is a copy of a Collection
held by HH, who maybe originated it from HLP days, and which I
copied from the Witt Collection, as any fool can plainly see and
if you don't you ain't no fool, Mule.

This is a typescript, not a manuscript.  It seems to have been
typed on a manual typewriter, not an electric typewriter. 

It was typed PICA -- 10-pitch, 
But about 75 characters per line.
That gives you a 7.25 inch Line Lenght, on 8.5 x 11 inch paper,
but whose counting.
Leaves you half-inch margins on each sides. 

In my EinsteinWriter input I will try to preserve Line_Length and
Line-endings.
That facilitates proof-reading.

----------------------------------------------------------------

SO OK, HERE'S AN EXCERPT FROM =inv0494a
This lists the Full B Series.

** YOU CAN SEE THAT B16B IS LISTED AS 14 PAGES, BUT I ONLY HAVE
PAGES 1--13, WITH PAGE 14 MISSING.

    6/90:  All but B22 returned from ZF to HS, both Meor Modi'in
DUPLICATE COLLECTION J. WITT BOX #5 4/94 
   With the following exceptions:  B7!, B14, B15, B18, B21, B25,
B27

B1	 4		6/22/69		Concert at Adath Israel
B2	 8		6/22/69
B3	 6		6/23/69		
B4a	 4		3/25/70		Teach-In
B4b	 7		3/25/70		Teach-In
*B5	 5		7/8/70		"Cassette of Maxim Bernice"
B6	2 + 1		7/8/70		"Giving existence"
       Includes HH33f
B7	61!		7/8-9/70		with Topical Table of Contents
B8	11		12/19/71		last night of Channukah
B9	12		12/20/71		"Rav Houtner"  Dec. 20, 1971
B10	 3		12/21/71	tr. by Donna, House of L&P Yeshiva, 
					21 Dec. 1971; on Reb Shmuel Shlonamer
B11	 5		1/4/72		R. Nachman on Dreams
B12a	12		1/13/72		From R. Nachman
B12b  1			1/13/72		On Purim
       @INPUT as D:\BOOK3:pur12b; editted excerpts input as
eeb20pur
B13	 9		1/17/72		morning  = JW18 = HH21
B14	 4		1/19/72                   = JW15 
B15	 7		1/27/72		PM       = JW18 = HH21
  Excerpts in sh_topic
B16a	 2	1/27/72		"Good Purmim!" story
       From Connections I(1)
       @INPUT C:\BOOK:gutpurim
B16b	14	1/27/72		Purim
B16c	10	1/27/72 
B17	24		1972		Pesach 1972
*B18	11	3/16/72		AM (Incomplete)  = JW21
B19	 7		6/22/73		AM  xt, page 1 faint
B20	 4		2/27/74		Brandeis  2/27/74
       @Editted Excerpts on Purim input as D:\BOOK3:eeb20pur
UNDATED XEROX TYPED TRANSCRIPTS

B21	10				On Pesach      = JW19
B22	18				"in Grunwald"
B23      3				Secret of Dying  = HH37f
B24	11
B25	26				"Side 1 of Cassette"  = JW17
B26	10
B27	14				"From Emes V'Tzedek" = JW14 = HH5
   INPUT = sh_jw14.ein
B28	pp2			Dinna
B29	 8	xm		Haskala	Tues June 30 [1974?] "...my soul,
                                   my soul, please remember..."   

         @INPUT C:\BOOK:b29.ew8

================================================================= 

Note that in =inv0494a I list Typescript B18 as 11 pages and note
that it is "Incomplete".
What I have here is 9 pages, and page 9 is only a half-pagae that
seems to end in mid-sentence.

The original page numbering is 1-7, with no 8-9, and then 10-11
At some stage, most likely when I xeroxed it from BZ's Collection,
I numbered the pages B18--1 -- B18--9                          
There seems to be a continuity in text between page B18-7 and B18-
8
So in short, I think there was an error in the original numbering,
and so I thik there is not missing text.  But maybe that's wrong.

At some point also most likely when I inventoried it from the Witt
Collection, I started to Head it 'Purim', then crossed that out
and headed it 'Pesach' 

---------------------------------------------------------------
================================================================

START PAGE 1 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18

The BEIS YOSEF 

[ REFERENCE:  Beit Yoef.  The dude who wrote Beit Yoef.  I have no
idea who he was nor when he did his thing, much less what his
shtick is, so someone tell me. ]

says that according to some, women have to fast
also 
[ on the day of the day before Pesach, customarily but
misleadingly termed 'erev Pesach'] .  
The first_borns have to fast on [ erev ] Peaach because the
first_born [ of the Egyptians, but not the Jews ] were knocked
off.

On erev Pesach, after ten o'clock [ in the morning ] you are not
permitted to have a 
feastele anymore. 
(b18-1a) 

(b18-1a)
[ But I had heard only, you are not permitted to eat hametz after
approximately 10 AM, or about 9:30 AM, on the day before the night
of the Seder. ]  

You really have to eat matza when you are hungry.  
(b18-1b)

(b18-1b)
[ The phrasing is misleading.  It means -- you must have a darned
good appetite to eat that flat unsalted bread.
It does not mean, as I first mistook it:  If you get the munchies
after 10 AM the day before Seder evening, rip open a box of matza
and crrrrucnch. 
     I understood the minhag to be -- at least on the day before
the night of the Seder do not eat matza until the Seder.]  

Doesn't
mean you have to be starved, during the day you can eat some cake
or something
(b18-1c)   

(b18-1c)
[ Yeah, you and Marie Antoinette -- I mean, matza is the bread of
affliction, the poor man's bread, so save the cake for kiddish. ]

but you are not permitted to sit down for a feastele.

According to
the Gmora, real eating is only when you are hungry.
(b18-1d)

Or when the Torah
says you have to eat matza, you really have to eat matza, I have
to be hungry:
but before ten o'cock in the morning you are still allowed to have
a
feastele.  

A lot of people erev Pesach morining, really eat a lot, so you
will be 
strong, because as much as you have to do during the day you
should have
strength.  
Anything which you eat that night you should not eat duirng the
day,
even horse radish.

[ That minhag was invented by a horse.  They do like their
radishes, you know.  Adds a bit of spice to the hay. ]
                                                   
The things which you eat at night should be special,
especially for the children to see that they are not eaten at
other times.
Egg matza, or something like that is not considered real matza, so
you can
eat that.
(b18-1e)

[ That is, matza with anything added -- egg, or wine -- may be
eaten during Pesach, since it is not leavened, but may not be used
at the Seder table to fulfill the mitzva of eating matza.]
(b18-1e) 

Anything you will not fulfill a mitzva with at night you can
eat during the day.  

If a person has a custom to eat late this is not good
for seder night, becausee the children have to be up for the
Seder.  
(b18-1f)

(b18-1f)
[That works ok in eretz Israel, where the spring equinox sun sets
at a sensible time, but things got a bit more difficult when you
head north.
One summer Friday afternoon in Lugano I wandered over to the Dan
Hotel as the sun was getting closee to the mountan ridge, and
said, what time is mincha.  They said, we've davened it.  I said,
ok, what time is Ma'ariv.  They said, we've davened it.
Last year I think it was abouot 22:15 when they davened Ma'ariv
for Pesach.  OK, these are glattniks, so they added a half-hour or
more, but still -- ]


Therefore
it says not only you should right from shul go home for the seder,
also you
have to make sure that the table is set and thst everything is
ready.  The
table has to be set before nightfall.
(b18-1f)	

This is an old custom, that anything beautiful you have in the
house
you put on the seder table.  Any gold or silver, anything which
looks
beautiful, because at the seder table we are free like kings, so
it has to show
tho the world that we are rich. j Even if you are a poor beggar,
the seder
has to be strong.

Everyobedy knows that the night of the seder you have to
sit leaning like a rich man.  Everybody should really have a
cushion.  In Bobov he is mamash lying on a sofa, completely lying. 
Lean on the left
side.

Again we come back to women's lib.  The question is whether a
woman
------------------------------------------------------------  

START PAGE 2 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18

also has to sit leaning on the side.  Some say that a woman
doesn't,
because the whole thing is that I am supposed to look like a king,
but
they say even a queen doesn't lean.  Usually a woman doesn't lean
back
it doesn't look dignified.  So some say that a woman should always
sit
straight.  For awoman it is more queenly to sit straight.  Others
say no,
that even a pincess sometimes, if she really feels free she leans.

If you sit with your Rebbe, then you don't lean, because it is not
respectfu8l.  Unless the teacher gives them special permission. 
If you come to
an outstanding holy man, even if he is not your Rebbe, you are not
permitted
to lean.

Matza you have to eat leaning back. 
(b18-2a)

[ Sorry, but my understanding has been, the wine you drink
leaning, but it says nothing in my Maxwell House Hagadah about
leaning to eat matza -- ]
(b18-2a) 

That means if I ate matza
without leaning, that means I have to eat it again.  I have to
drink the
four cups of wine leaning back.  If I drank the four cups without
leaning
I have to drink four more cups of wine.
(b18-2b) 

If I finish the whole seder, and
then I realize I at matza or I drank wine without leaning back, I
have to
go back, wash my hands again, drink four cups of wine, and eat
matza.
(b18-2c)	

The RAMO

[ REFERENCE:  The RAMO .  Don't have the foggiest.]

says if in an emergency you forgot to lean bak you don't have to
eat matza again.
(b18-2d)

And also he says only the first two cups of wine if you
drank without leaning back you have to redrink them.  But the last
two cups
if you drank them without leaning back it is OK.


What about the feastele.  The soup.  The truth is, if you can, you
eat everything leaning back.  It has to be the feastele of a king.
(b18-2e)   

Do you know beween the first and second [ cups of wine ] 
(b18-2f)
(b18-2f)
[-- the first to make kiddish, the second to salute the conclusion
of reading the Hagadah -- the Hagadah is recited over the 2nd cup
of wine ]

you are not permitted to drink.  Between the second and the third
you can drink all the time
during the meal.  But again between the third [ cup of wine, over
which the Hallel is recited ] and the fourth [ over which birkat
hamazon is recited ] you are not permitted to drink, and after the
fourth you are not permitted to drink
anything until the next morning.  The taste of the matza and the
fourth
cup have to stay with you until the next morning.

The thing is like this.  If you sit by the seder and you are too
hungry then you rattle off the seder because you are hungry.
----------------------------------------------------------------
START PAGE 3 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18

So eat something so you shouldn't be too hungry.  But you have to
be half 
hungry.

If a person never drinks wine, for one reason or another,
nevertheless, seder night you have to drink wine.     
(b18-3a)

(b18-3a)
[ So some say, but this is now considered a recommendation, not an
obligation; and prevailing custom, as I saw it at the Witts, is
that one is free to drink either wine or grape juice.] 
	
And you should drink red wine.
(b18-3b)

(b18-3b)
[ I have heard this as a recommendation for Shabat, but never as
an obligation, and I have not heard it mentioned as a particular
obligation nor even recommendation for the Seder.]
      
If you cannot drink wine then you should cook the wine, then it is
not
strong anymore.  

If a person makes a vow that he won't drink wine all year
then he has trouble seder night.  But if a person makes a vow I
will not
drink wine seder night,  the vow is not even valid.  
(b18-3b1)

(b18-3b1)
[ More precisely, a vow to never drink wine is not valid, because
on seder night one is obligated to drink wine, and an halachic
obligation (if this is one) takes precedence over a vow. ]


A vow that I will not
drink all year except seder night is OK.  

!When someone makes kiddush
you dom't have to drink wine, you just have to listen to it.!
(b18-3c) 

(b18-3c)
[ And, I think, answer 'Amen'.]
	
But if someone 
reads the Hagada, and I say 'Amen' 
(b18-3d)

(b18-3d)
[ I don't recall an 'Amen' to the Hagada, neither before or after
reading it. ]
	
but I don't drink  wine, it doesn't
do.

Do you know that the [ obligation on Pesach to drink the ] four
cups are so strong that you literally have
to sell your furniture or your house [ in order to be able to
afford wine for Pesach ]   

[No, you literally have to sell your novel, and may be floored to
realize you have to sell your furniture, or moved to sell your
house.]
                                                           
I really have to sell everything 
in order to have the four cups of wine.  A person even has to sell
himself
as a worker.
(b18-3e)

(b18-3e)
[ Excuse me, but that's bullshit.  To celebrate our freedom from
slavery you should turn yourself into a slave?!?
And also it is said, a man should make his Shabat like any other
day rather than spend more than he can afford, and everyone knows,
Shabat takes precedence over any holiday upon which it falls.  So
therefore we can infer 'from Major to minor' that if one has no
money for wine on Pesach, one does not sell oneself into slavery
to obtain it.
And also, everyone knows, if kosher wine is not available, you can
do with water in which raisins have been soaked. I heard that from
Ziv Hosid in Belarus, and also others have confirmed it.  ]

Women also have to drink four cups of wine.
[b18-3f]
(b18-3f)
[ Oh well.  And to which marketplace do THEY go if they can't
afford a jug of it.
No.  Preganant women are surely excempt, for preganant women
should not drink alcohol.  And of course anyone witha damaged
liver is exempt.  And maybe nursing women too.  
And all this I can derive from 'ki hen chai_eynu, for they are
your life, and from , 'the torah (or is it 'the Shabat'= was made
for man, not man for for the torah' ]

Anything
which is a mitzva that night they have to do.  Children when they
can
already understand what is going on also have to drink four cups
of wine.
(b18-3g)

(b18-3g)
[ That's nonsense.  Children don't have to do anything.  They're
not bar mitzva.  When they're bar mitzva, they have to do
everything. 
And also, derekh eretz says:  you don't force alcohol on children. 
There is nothing inherently sacred about wine, which would somehow
take it out of the category of mere alcohol.  We make kiddish etc.
over wine because it is a treat for us, and we wish thereby to
show additional honor to the Sabath, or to the Hagadah, or to the
Hallel, or to birkat haMozon, or to the wedding couple. So there
is no point passing around the cup after you have made kiddish,
what is santified is the Shabat, not the wine.
And also -- children are smaller than adults, even if they were to
drink a cup of wine, it could not be an adult cup.  
And anyhow, most kiddish wine ain't worth drinking in the first
place.
Gal_or stopped by, I gave him some, he said, that's cough syrup.
Next time he stopped by I gave him some real wine.  He said, is
that regular wine.  I said yeah, but I added sugar to it.
That was almost the first time Gal_or refused a glass of wine. ]
	
Also, you are not permitted to drink wine from a straw.

[ But if you first pour the wine into a strawberry ice cream soda,
it is permitted. Of course this only applies to Snapple.]

If you drink from
a cup you can really drink.  From a straw it is always only drops,
so you
can't really drink.

The first cup is two things.  First it is kiddush, and it is the
first
cup of the Seder.  And you make She'hechianu.

Why are there four cups. 
Because G_d said to Moses the four words of redemption: 
Vehatzaitze.  I will take you out.
Veyitzalyi, I will save you.
Vegoalti, I'll redeem you.
Velakachti, and I will take you.

There are four exiles.

The fourth cup is already drinking like when the Meshiach is
coming.  

Do you know that according to the MAHARAL , and other mekubalim,
you drink a
fifth cup.  This has nothing to do with the Hagada, which is
really way
out.  They say that the first four cuprs are for the redemption of
[ our enslavement in ] Egypt,
and the fifth cup you drink on the redemption which is to come. 
But
---------------------------------------------------------------
      
START PAGE 4 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18

most people, simple folks like us, only drink four cups.  Real
great kabalists 
are drinking five.  

The four exiles are Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Edom (Rome).
(b18-4a)            

(b18-4a)
[ I'm not clear how you get Persia.  When Assyria conqureed
Babylonia, Xerox permitted the exiled Jews to return to the land
of Israel. ]	

Nobody is pouring wine for himself, do you know that.  Because a
king
doesn't pour himself the wine.  Always someone else.   So
everybody had to
pour for the other.

Between the first cup and second cup you don't
drink anything else.  Between the first cup and the second cup you
have
to say the hagada.  The first cup you make kidush.  Over the
second cup
you read the Hagada.  You tell the story.  Oer the third is the
meal,,so 
you can drink as much as you want.  Over the fourth you cannot
drink
because you are saying hallel.  

It should be the wine which you can digest the strongest
without getting drunk or sick or having a headache.  It depends on
your stomach.


Then goes a whole thing abour moror, because there is a big
question
about what is moror.  So what we are doing, we are eating a lot of
salad
and horseradish also.  Between the two of them.  Don't be stingy. 
You
must have a kezayis, it mut be pretty big.           
(b18-4a1)

(b18-4a1)
[ Must a kezayis "be pretty big".  There's a lot jive about a
kezayis.  It means, k_zayit, like an olive.  That ain't big.  But
someohow a kezayis of wine comes out a huge amount. ]

In the salad you can eat 
only the leaves, not the roots, because this is not called moror,
it has
to be the leaves.  And also they cannot be cooked, they have to be
raw.
The best thing is to take horseradish and cut it. 
(b18-4b)

(b18-4b)
[ The custom, whcich I have seen everywhere, is to use the leaves
of Romaine lettuce.  I suppose because Romaine lettuce is slightly
albeit minimally bitter.  ]
	
Do you know how to make charoset.  You have to take a lot of
apples, 
figs and nuts, and you put in a little bit wine, and cinamon. 
This 
should remind you of what we were putting between the bricks. 
Mortar.                                                 

[ Yes of course; I had assumed it was peanut butter. 
And anyhow, 'moror & mortar'? Give me a break. ]

You take the moror and  you dip it into the haroset because
haroset is
sweet.  Even in your greatest pain, G_d makes the pain wide enough
that you can go through.  Meaning to say, even when G_d gave us
all the
moror in the world, all the bitterness, there was always just one
little
sweet spot.   
(b18-4b1)

(b18-4b1)
[ Similarly, the Christians say, G_d give you no test too
difficult to pass through.  And I suppose this is the parting of
the Reed Sea.]

You dip the moor in the haroset, but don't overdip it.  You 
?can? eat a lot of haroset after the moror.

Everyone knows that on the seder plate there are three matzas,
like
--------------------------------------------------------------
START PAGE 5 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18

Cohanim, Leviim, and Yisraelim.  You break the middle one, and the
bigger
part you put away and you eat it for the afikomen.  When you break
it you
say Yachatz, which means to divide.  


It says 

[REFERENCE:  It is the bit which the Rabbi is sugar_coating so
lure all the hippies into line to be frumies.  But which book it
is, I don't so, so someone tell me now please thank you. ]

that everything which you
do at the seder has to be explained so that everyone, even the
children,
will understand what you are doing.

Then you hold up the seder plate, and all the three matzas and you
say Halachma Anya ("This is the bread of affliction ...") .  After
Halachma Anya you pour the second cup but you
don't drink it, and you read the Hagada.  By the Sephardim you
don't
make boray pri hagofen over the second cup, and by the Ashkenazim
you do.                            

According to the Ashkenazim it is a hefsek when you read the
Hagada.	

[ GLOSSARY:  Hefek .  Don't know.  Best Guess:  A small young cow
with one pink foot with two peppermint stripes. ]

It is a big machlokes in the Gmora. According to some, since I am
sitting by the seder and I know I have to drink another cup, it
means I
never forget about the wine.  Even while I am telling the story. 
And the
others say no, right now while I am telling the story I
concentrate on
the story and I forget about the wine.   
(b16b-5a)

(b16b-5a)
[ That ain't a machlochet, there's nothing to do a dialektic on,
it don't go up in helicycle (as Sartre said of his play, Les
Sequestrs d'Altoona) -- it's just a dithering of perspectdives. ]

So now the thing is like this:
When you make Hamotzie you take the top matza and the bottom matza
out of 
the seder plate and you say Hamotzie lechem min haaretz.  And you
don't dip
the matza in salt.

When you make hamotzie you make it over all three matzas.  Then
you drop
the lower one.  Then you say al achilas matza, since because matza
is the
bread of afflication you have to eat from a broken one.  Then you
eat a
little piece of this one, and a little piece of the whole one.  It
has to
be a kezayis.
(b18-5b)  

(b18-5b)
[But I have heard some say, a kazayis of matza is darned near the
whole matza.  I guess they are going by weight, and found some
darned big olives somewhere. ]

Then after that you eat moror, and you dip it in Haroset,
But he says:

[ REFERENCE:  Who he? He whom Reb Shlomo is Commentating upon,
that who he.
Nu so who he?  I don't know, so someone tell me who he now. ] 
                                
also don't overdip it because it has to be bitter.

Moror
you don't eat learning back, because when you eat bitterness you
don't do
it lying back.
(b18-5c)

(b18-5c)
[ Not to mention the heartburn.  I mean gvalt, somewhere near t he
North Pole there are frumies who eat horseradish standing on their
head, and on horesback to boot. ]

Then comes the third matza.  The third matza you need
for korach.  You take a little bit of matza and moror together. 
First we
eat matza alone and moror alone, and after t hat we eat both
together.  
(b18-5d)

(b18-5d)
[ Sounds so ruddy Aristotelian logical they must have learned it
from the Thomists. ]


So you take a piece from the third matza and you braek it and put
moror
betweem amd eat it together.  Korach means together.
--------------------------------------------------------

START PAGE 6 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18
              
If you swallow down matza and don't feel the taste that is all
right.
But moror if you don't feel the taste you have to eat it again. 
You
have to feel the taste.

If anyone becomes crazy for half an hour and he eats matza and
then
he becomss normal again he has to eat matza again. 
(b18-6a)

(b18-6a)
[ OK, at first glance this is abstract pilpul -- it does not teach
us any halacha we would ever need to know -- except for ouer seder
gueset George, who turns into a werewolf when but only when he
sees the full moon, so we hope for some clouds in the sky - it
merely illustrates the logic behind the halachot.
At second glance, it implies that matza must be eaten with full
attention, and kavanah.
But then that contradicts RSC's remark that one can chug the ruddy
stuff down without tasting it -- though I can't imagine how.  I
suppose this is those compressed matza pills -- a whole sheet in
the size of a large vitamin pill -- but I believe there was some
question about the kashrut of the gelatin caps. ]
	

Then, we con't eat anything roasted.  Most people don't because
the pascal lamb was roasted, in order to know that we are not
eating the
Korban Pesach, If you eat meat you eat only cooked meat [ ie,
boiled (sa)] you don't eat
anything roasted.  You eat what you have to eat, and then you pull
out
the matza afikomen, the broken matza, and you eat from that a
kezayis.
If you want to make it really strong you have to eat two kezaysim
to
make it a really big piece.
(b18-6b)

(b18-6b)
[ But again, the custom I have seen is  that for the afikomen each
person eats nearly a whole matza, since a prevailing opinion is
that it takes nearly a whole matza to make a kezyis of matza. ]


When you eat the matza you got to be really
with it, you can't talk or joke.  The piece has to be really big,
and you
sit there and you mamash eat matza.  Once a year is mamash the
biggest
mitzva when you eat.  Shabos is also a mitzva when you are eating,
but
it is not on that level.  On shabos the esting is you have to be
happy on
Shabos.  So one of the ways of being happy is if I am eating, so I
am
fulfilling the mitzva of being happy on Shabos with eating.  But
eating
itself is not so much the mitzva.  The mitzva is oneg Shabos.  But
seder night is mamash eating.  That means I am fulfilling mamash
the 
biggete mitzva in the world.

You know the holy SANZER was sitting after
the seder and putting his hands on his stomach and he was saying
Oy,
tonight my stomach did so many mitzvas. 
(b18-6c)

(b18-6c)
[ I don't really like that.  R. Solevetchik presents that position
clearly in Halakic Man -- a mitzva is done for its own sake.  But
it seems to me, a mitzva is not done for its own sake -- although
there are some chukat, where we do mitzvas on faith, without
knowing what good they do (and also this is Pirke Avot, 'Be as
careful with a [ supposedly ] 'light' mitzva as with a
[supposedly] 'heavy' one, for you know not the reward reserved for
each.
So why do we do mitzvot, if they are not for their own sake -- and
also this is, 'the Shabat was made for man, not man for the
Shabat' -- here I want to bring in PVK's phrase, 'to build a
beautiful world of beautiful people' (and in later years he would
add, 'amidst an ugly world of ugly people' -- only my brother
could say that phrase with the proper touch of enduring humoour --
like someting out of a TV show, The Simpsons maybe --  
   This is more than 'derekh eretz', it comes closer to what folks
must mean by civilization. 
     I really must buy a new pair of pants, one without a rip in
it.] 

Afikomen is because we don't eat the Pascal lamb.  At the end
of the feastele they would eat a little piece of the Korban
Pesach.
Since we don't have a Korban Pesach we eat a little piece of matza
for
the Korban Pesach.  Afikomen really comes from another world.  The
taste
of this matza is really supposed to keep you going for the rest of
the 
year before Meshiach is coming.

OK.  then you pour in the third cup and yout tentsch.  Again you
---------------------------------------------------------------

START PAGE 7 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18
              
drink it and you lean back.  

And also very important, the real mitzva is
to drink the whole ucp.  It is really very important.  When you
drink the
cup you drink the whole cup.  It is very strong.  It keeps you
going.                                  

OK, then you open the door.  
You have to realize one thing.  After the
third cup we are not in this world.   Then you open the door.  Do
you know
what that means.  When G_d took us out of Egypt the doors were
closed that
night and we were not permitted to go out into the street. 
Meaning to say
that the street wasnl't ready yet for the holiness of G_d.  Maybe
the house
but not the street yet. But when it comes to the fourth cup we 
celebrate that Messhiach is coming, then all the doors are open. 
It will be
not only the house, it will be in the street, all over.  So we
open the
doors and Eliahu HaNavi is coming in.  This is a very holy custom. 

After
you open the door and your really believe that Elijah drank from
the cup,
so then you take Elija's cup and everybody gets one drop of
Elijah's cup
in his cop for the four cup.  In BOBOV it is the beiggest thing. 
The
Rebbe himself is giving everybody from Elijah's cup.  

The custom is when
it comes time you take two candles, or a lot of people with a lot
of
candles, and you go to the door, open the door and greet Elijah.  
(b18-7a)                    

(b18-7a)
[ Everyone knows, RSC used to teach:  the kavanah is not 'pour out
YOUR wrath upon the the nations that have not known YOU', but
rather, 'pour out YOUR warmth'.  The Hebrew text will support that
alternate reading. ]


Becasue
we really believe he is coming in. so you stand by the door with
candles.
Once a year you know that Elijah the Prophet is really seeing you. 
He is
coming into our house and you can stand there and greet him, it is
the
greatest thing.

After you finish the whole thing, and after you drank
the fourth cup, you are not permitted to drink anything, except
water
which has no taste. Some pepple drink even a fifth cup.  After the
seder
you should sit together and learn the laws of Pesach, or talk to
each
otehr about the exodus from Egypt, or tell holy stories until you
fall
asleep.  

On the first night you have to eat the first piece of matza
before midnight.  According to some you have to eat the afikomen
before 
midnight also, but only the first night.  
(b18-7b)	

(b18-7b)
[ But this -- that one the 2nd night you do not have to eat the
afikomen before midnight -- contradicts a story, with RSC told, of
the hosid who falls alseep on Pesach afternoon, and wakes up so
late he has to rush though the second Seder, and is crestfallen,
but then his Rebbe says, it was his second Seder that was the
great one. ]

In SANZ , actually by a lot of
Rebbes, it was the custom to say Shir HaShirim the second night.  
I heard
----------------------------------------------------------------

START PAGE 8 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18                         

[ There is s discontinuity in the original numbering of the pages
here -- this is marked 10, and the preceeding page was marked 7.
So it is possible that 2 pages of the transcription are missing.
But there seems to be a continuity of text.
I marked this page B18-8 when I prepared to photocopy it from BZ's
Collection, so his collection will now have that numbering.
So one should check the more prior Witt and HH collections. 
As for the original tape, and copies thereof, I have no idea
where, if anywhere, they exist on this planet. ]

I do hower find a marking // at the start of this line.
That is a mark I use, and I don't know if anyone else does.
I most likely put it there when I inventoried this typescript in
the Witt Collection -- and then made a photocopy for at least one
of the HH's, if I recall -- which means that I assumed there was a
discontinuityx of text.


-------------------------------------------------------------
[I heard]
-------------------------------------------------------
START PAGE 8 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18                         
                       
in Bobov that after the seder it was the minhag in ROPSHITZ that
after

the fourth cup of wine someone would come in, in every city there
is a crazy
person, the fool of the city, they would bring in this fool and
the 
Ropshitzer would talk to him.  And the Ropbhistuer would laugh,
really laugh.  He
would ask him the craziest things in the world, and he would
answer him
in the craziest way in the world because he was crazy. 
(b18--8a) 

(b18--8a)
[ sounds like a dervish -- he looks crazy, and he acts crazy, be
he ain't the one who's crazy, you are .
But maybe it ain't a dervish, just a meshugana.  The difference is
between Heaven and hell, from here they both look about the same. 
But not when you get there. ]


There were two
reasons.  First of all, which is the most important reason, in
SANZ also
because after the seder the Chasidim were mamash afraid that he
would take off, so they needed just anything to make him come back
to
this world, so they brought in this fool and he would talk to him.
I heard in Bobov all the kinds of questions he would ask the fool
and the
fool would ask him.  All kinds of crazy things, but they needed it
to
come back to this world.  And the second reason was that after the
fourth
cup, Meshiach is coiming, you are on the level of laughter. 
Because it
says when Meshiach is coming, 'az yimale tschok pinu' 

[ "and our mouths were full of song, from Psalm 126 , whch is Shir
haMalot, the Psalm sung before bentching on shabat and festivals.
]

Now we are on
the level of joy.  When Meshiach is coming we will be on the level
of
laughter.  So right after you drink the fourth cup, and Meshiach
is
coming, you have to luagh.

It is very important at least for the first matza and for afikomen
that you have shmura matza.

There is a big machlokes.  Some say Meshiach is going to come on
Rosh HaShana, and some say on Pesach.  But the end is, whenever he
comes
is ok with us.  But the meaning is, Pesach something is in the
air.
The Gmora says there is a certain time, G_d knows, when Meshiach
is
comming, if we want to or not.  But there are times before then
when
we can bring him.  Like he is standing at the airport just jumping
on
the jet.  Seder night we can bring him. Rosh HaShana after the
shofar.
Motzi Shabos it is also easier to bring him.

Ther eis a a question if you can use apple juice instead of wine
if you can't drink wine, or if you absolutely won't drink wine.

The only time we say Hallel at night is Pesach night.  Because
Peasach night is really [ last two words of t his line did not
xerox]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
    
START PAGE 9 OF RSC TYPESCRIPT B18 -- LAST PAGE 

Leyl shmura means the night when G_d is watching.
(b18-9a)  
 
(b18-9a)
[ But the the usual translation is, 'a night of watching'.
Meaning, a night when one watches, as the children of Israel were
on the watch for the moment when they should leave.
So it seems to me, this, no less than Shavuot, is a night when it
is appropriate to say awake all night -- and the Hagada passage
about the 3 rabbi's seems to be strongly hinting that. ]

All year long you had
very high moments, right.  And then we lsot them.  we fell down
again.
What happened to those high moments.  The truth is, G_d gives them
back to us seder night.  The Seder is s combination of everything
I
was high on all year long. 
(b18-9b)
(b18-9b)
[ I thought that matza tasted rather like peyote.]

All the shaboses, all the YomTovs, 
everything which happened ot me since last seder night. G_d gives
everything
back to me.

What happens to the seed in the earth.  The seed really
was lost.  We thought it was lost.  Sudddenly a tree is growing
out of
it.  And the time os [ typescript sic, os, but I assume, 'is']
real, beginning is around Pesach time.  And our
holy soul growing time is Pesach.  So suddenly we realize that all
the 
things which we thought got lost weren't really lost.  They were
just
in the earth and were just beginning to grow.  Eery split second I
was
ever [ typescript sic, 'ever', but maybe 'very']
holy or high.

[ END TYPESCRIPT, THOUGH WITH NO NOTE INDICATING THAT THIS IS THE
END OF THE TRANSCRIPTION..  Not even a period after 'high'

----------------------------------------------------------------
sa, Campra, 14 Sept '05 -- 10 Elul -- 
I am greatful to the Vanzettis for having giving me a place in
which to input this typescript.
===============================================================
=================================================================

DEEP_6 OF COMMENTS FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY --  APPENED, AND ALSO
FILED OFF TO =scsa_b18

(as_it_is_said, (USA 1940's), "No Comments from the Peanut
Gallery")
THAT IS, FOOTNOTES (sa) TO SC_B13 -- FOLLOW

----------------------------------------------------------------
On erev Pesach, after ten o'clock [ in the morning ] you are not
permitted to have a 
feastele anymore. 
(b18-1a) 

(b18-1a)
[ But I had heard only, you are not permitted to eat hametz after
approximately 10 AM, or about 9:30 AM, on the day before the night
of the Seder. ]  

You really have to eat matza when you are hungry.  
(b18-1b)

(b18-1b)
[ The phrasing is misleading.  It means -- you must have a darned
good appetite to eat that flat unsalted bread.
It does not mean, as I first mistook it:  If you get the munchies
after 10 AM the day before Seder evening, rip open a box of matza
and crucnch. 
 understood the minhag to be -- at least on the day before the
night of the Seder do not eat matza until the Seder.]  

Doesn't
mean you have to be starved, during the day you can eat some cake
or something
(b18-1c)   

(b18-1c)
[ Yeah, you and Marie Antoinette -- I mean, matza is the bread of
affliction, the poor man's bread, so save the cake for kiddish. ]

According to
the Gmora, real easting is only when you are hungry.
(b18-1d)	
(b18-1d)
[ How hideously old_fashioned.  Didn't those rubes in Babylon hear
of Power Eating.  
Me, I put on a yellow shirt and take the Clients  out to Dago's in
Greenwich Village, and order spaghetti with pomadoro con Dago.  He
puts the red pepper pot in it for everyone else.  For me he
pre_cuts it.  Talk of Power Eating.  And I make sure the Gents is
Out of Order, except I have a key to the Execs.  They'll sign
anything before the Friday Night Ladies Mud Wrestling is on. 
Have to live on brown rice for the next week, but it pays my bill
at the Sushi Bar.
But perhaps you did not want to read my Commentary on the Gemora.

[ That is, matza with anything added -- egg, or wine -- may be
eaten during Pesach, since it is not leavened, but may not be used
at the Seder table to fulfill the mitzva of eating matza.
(b18-1e)
(b18-1e)
Ok, if you can eat matza with anything added, how can you eat it
with anything subtracted.  I mean white flour matza, which is made
from ground flour with all the husks and bram -- whatever bran is,
maybe its the husks hground up -- taken away.
I mean, those pyramids did not hold flour mills.

White flour matza should be used only when you are out of
bubblepack and styrofoam (styrofoam, incidentally, is made from
pigs' knuckles, which is why pigs can't sew worth a darn.
Ok ok, I lied about the pigs knuckles, its really kosher, just
also really weird.  The USA used it as a base for napalming
Vietnamese children.  Kosher like a pig.
On Rosh HaShana I go to the Glatt Kosher Dan Hotel by the lake in
Lugano, and steal a glass cup or two rather than drink from
styrofoam.  They make tea from tea concentrate rather than risk
squeezing a teabag on Shabat. ]

If a person has a custom to eat late this is not good
for seder night, becaused the children have to be up for the
Seder.  

(b18-1f)
That works ok in eretz Israel, where the spring equinox sun sets
at a sensible time, but things got a bit more difficult when you
head north.
One summer Friday afternoon in Lugano I wandered over to the Dan
Hotel as the sun was getting closee to the mountan ridge, and
said, what time is mincha.  They said, we've davened it.  I said,
ok, what time is Ma'ariv.  They said, we've davened it.
Last year I think it was abouot 22:15 when they davened Ma'ariv
for Pesach.  OK, these are glattniks, so they added a half-hour or
more, but still -- ]


Matza you have to eat leaning back. 

[ Sorry, but my understanding has been, the wine you drink
leaning, but it says nothing in my Maxwell House Hagadah about
leaning to eat matza -- 


I mean Sassafrass, matza is the bread of affliction, eaten in
great haste
I mean seriously folks, the Hagadah is tohu_v_bohu -- it makes no
sense, and whenever it starts to make sense, it quickly runs off
into nonsense -- like that how many plagues bit -- 
I mean, I go to the Seder looking for that Episcipal High Mass
taht T.S. Eliot said was the only thing that turned him on -- no
wonder there were no little Eliots -- and what do I get --
burlesque.  We lean back like Romans at an orgy, and they feed us
dried bread and bitter herbs.
And it ain't kings who lean back, just Romans.  A free man doesn't
lean back, he has better things to do.
I mean, from a literary standpoint, the Hagadah is the pposite of
Megilat Esther, or of Megilat Ruth.  Those two Megilot are
nbeautifully written, cohesive stories.  The Hagadah is a
hodge_podge.  I mean, it gives us this elaborate ritual of 14
steps, and your're supposed to complete every one of them in the
correctd way -- and there's details that can drive you crazy --
and in the correct order -- all the while getting as drunk as a
Roman nobleman -- I mean, a glass of wine with supper is very
nice, but four glasses -- and all this ritual to a text that has
no coherence, it's just a hodge-podge.

Maxwell House was the coffee you got in supermarkets in the USA
1940's, for even the poorest customer they sold it to you in beans
and ground it for you at the checkout, and ground it to fit your
coffee_maker -- drip, or percolator, which is the way they make
espresso nowadays
But I digress.]

If I drank the four cups without leaning
 have to drink four more cups of wine.
(b18-2b)
[ I think this frumie bit has possibilities.
Sorry Fred, this all comes under, 'thou shalt not make yourself
loathsome.'  You can't eat nor drink past satiety.
Unless of course this is a USA Pie_Eating Contest.
And if that ain't strictly for goyim, what is.
I say, never eat it until you know where you're going to poop it.
I once heard a dude say, maybe outside Diaspora Yeshiva, when you
travel, travel light.  Ie, don't eat much before you hit the
road.]

If I finish the whole seder, and
then I realize I at matza or I drank wine without leaning back, I
have to
go back, wash my hands again, drink four cups of wine, and eat
matza.
(b18-2c)
(b18-2c)
[ Well, if this is what R. Shlomo was teaching the kids at the
dawn of the ba'al tchuva momvement, its amazing that we can still
make a minyan. ]

The RAMO

[ REFERENCE:  The RAMO .  Don't have the foggiest.]

says if in an emergency you forgot to lean bak you don't have to
eat matza again.
(b18-2d)
[ Yeah sure man, if the Cossaks were at the door and I got
flustered.  I mean gvalt, who needs Reform. ]

What about the feastele.  The soup.  The truth is, if you can, you
eat everything leaning back.  It has to be the featele of a king.
(b18-2e)
[ Or better yet, snort the soup through your nose.
I mean, let us be reasonable.
First of all, I don't think the feast even belongs in the Seder. 
Like the whole point is, we are remembering the Exodus, so we are
eating the bread of affliction, with bitter herbs.
OK, so you say, we must also remember the Redemption, that's the
feast.  Nu, wait 49 days to Shavuot, then you can eat.  Blintzes
even.
So ok, like I say, this leaning back bit is strictly burlesque.
I mean, who wants to eat leaning back.  Leave it to the Romans. 
Leaning back to eat is something you should only do when you have
a slave girl to peel you a grape.
I mean, if leaning back was such a luxury, they would have divans
at every restaurant with a white tablecloth. 
I mean, this is what's good for the digesteion?  And if it ain't,
you done said the brachot over food in vain.  Like, pour me my
bitters. ]

Do you know beween the first and second [ cups of wine ] 
(b18-2f)
(b18-2f)
-- the first to make kiddish, the second to salute the conclusion
of reading the Hagadah -- the Hagadah is recited over the 2nd cup
of wine ]

If a person never drinks wine, for one reason or another,
nevertheless, seder night you have to drink wine.     
(b18-3a)

(b18-3a)
[ So some say, but this is now considered a recommendation, not an
obligation; and prevailing custom, as I saw it at the Witts, is
that one is free to drink either wine or grape juice.] 

And you should drink red wine.
(b18-3b)

(b18-3b)
[ I have heard this as a recommendation for Shabat, but never as
an obligation, and I have not heard it mentioned as a particular
obligation nor even recommendation for the Seder.]

!When someone makes kiddush
you dom't have to drink wine, you just have to listen to it.!
(b18-3c) 

(b18-3c)
[ And, I think, answer 'Amen'.]

But if some 
reads the Hagada, and I say 'Amen' 
(b18-3d)

(b18-3d)
[ I don't recall an 'Amen' to the Hagada, neither before or after
reading it. ]

I really have to sell everything 
in order to have the four cups of wine.  A person even has to sell
himself
as a worker.
(b18-3e)

(b18-3e)
[ Bullshit.  To celebrate our freedom from slavery you should turn
yourself into a temporary slave.
And also it is said, a man should make his Shabat like any other
day rather than spend more than he can afford. ]

Women also have to drink four cups of wine.
[b18-3f]
(b18-3f)
[  Oh well.  And to which marketplace do THEY go if they can't
afford a jug of it.
No.  Preganant women are surely excempt, for preganant women
should not drink alcohol.  And of course anyone witha damaged
liver is exempt.  And maybe nursing women too.  
And all this I can derive from 'ki hen chai_eynu, for they are
your life, and from , 'the torah (or is it 'the Shabat'= was made
for man, not man for for the torah' ]

Children when they can
already understand what is going on also have to drink four cups
of wine.
(b18-3g)

(b18-3g)
[ That's nonsense.  Children don't have to do anything.  They're
not bar mitzva.  When they're bar mitzva, they have to do
anything. 
And also, derekh eretz says:  you don't force alcohol on children. 
There is nothing inherently sacred about wine, which would somehow
take it out of the category of mere alcohol.  We make kiddish etc.
over wine because it is a treat for us, and we wish thereby to
show additional honor to the Sabath, or to the Hagadah, or to the
Hallel, or to birkat haMozon, or to the wedding couple. So there
is no point passing around the cup after you have made kiddish,
what is santified is the Shabat, not the wine.
And also -- children are smaller than adults, even if they were to
drink a cup of wine, it could not be an adult cup.  
And anyhow, most kiddish wine ain't worth drinking in the first
place.
Gal_or stopped by, I gave him some, he said, that's cough syrup.
Next time he stopped by I gave him some real wine.  He said, is
that regular wine.  I said yeah, but I added sugar to it.
That was almost the first time Gal_or refused a glass of wine. ]

If a person makes a vow that he won't drink wine all year
then he has trouble seder night.  But if a person makes a vow I
will not
drink wine seder night,  the vow is not even valid.  
(b18-3b1)

(b18-3b1)
[ More precisely, a vow to never drink wine is not valid, because
on seder night one is obligated to drink wine, and an halachic
obligation (if this is one) takes precedence over a vow. ]

The four exiles are Egypt, Baby.lon, Persia, and Edom (Rome).
(b18-4a)            

(b18-4a)
[ I'm not clear how you get Persia.  When Assyria conqureed
Babylonia, Xerex permitted the exiled Jews to return to the land
of Israel. ]

(b18-4b)
[ The custom, whcich I have seen everywhere, is to use the leaves
of Romaine lettuce.  I suppose because Romaine lettuce is slightly
albeit minimally bitter.  ]

(b18-4a1)
[ Must a kezayis "be pretty big".  There's a lot jive about a
kezayis.  It means, k_zayit, like an olive.  That ain't big.  But
someohow a kezayis of wine comes out a huge amount. ]

(b18-4b1)
[ Similarly, the Christians say, G_d give you no test too
difficult to pass through.  And I suppose this is the parting of
the Reed Sea.]

(b16b-5a)
[ That ain't a machlochet, there's nothing to do a dialektic on,
it don't go up in helicycle (as Sartre said of his play, Les
Sequestrs d'Altoona) -- it's just a dithering of perspectdives. ]

(b18-5b)
[But I have heard some say, a kazayis of matza is darned near the
whole matza.  I guess they are going by weight, and found some
darned big olives somewhere. ]

Moror
you don't eat learning back, because when you eat bitterness you
don't do
it lying back.
(b18-5c)

(b18-5c)
[ Not to mention the heartburn.  I mean gvalt, somewhere near t he
North Pole there are frumies who eat horseradish standing on their
head, and on horesback to boot. ]


First we
eat matza alone and moror alone, and after t hat we eat both
together.  
(b18-5d)

(b18-5d)
[ Sounds so ruddy Aristotelian logical they must have learned it
from the Thomists. ]

If anyone becomes crazy for half an hour and he eats matza and
then
he becomss normal again  he has to eat matza again. 
(b18-6a)

(b18-6a)
[ OK, at first glance this is abstract pilpul -- it does not teach
us any halacha we would ever need to know -- except for ouer seder
gueset George, who turns into a werewolf when but only when he
sees the full moon, so we hope for some clouds in the sky - it
merely illustrates the logic behind the halachot.
At second glance, it implies that matza must be eaten with full
attention, and kavanah.
But then that contradicts RSC's remark that one can chug the ruddy
stuff down without tasting it -- though I can't imagine how.  I
suppose this is those compressed matza pills -- a whole sheet in
the size of a large vitamin pill -- but I believe there was some
question about the kashrut of the gelatin caps. ]

the matza afikomen, the broken matza, and you eat from that a
kezayis.
If you want to make it really strong you have to eat two kezaysim
to
make it a really big piece.
(b18-6b)

(b18-6b)
[ But again, the custom I have seen is  that for the afikomen each
person eats nearly a whole matza, since a prevailing opinion is
that it takes nearly a whole matza to make a kezyis of matza. ]



You now the holy SANZER was sitting after
the seder and putting his hands on his stomach and he was saying
Oy,
tongight my stomach did so many mitzvas. 
(b18-6c)

(b18-6c)
[ I don't really like that.  R. Solevetchik presents that position
clearly in Halakic Man -- a mitzva is done for its own sake.  But
it seems to me, a mitzva is not done for its own sake -- although
there are some chukat, where we do mitzvas on faith, without
knowing what good they do (and also this is Pirke Avot, 'Be as
careful with a [ supposedly ] 'light' mitzva as with a [
supposedly ] 'heavy' one, for you know not the reward reserved for
each.
So why do we do mitzvot, if they are not for their own sake -- and
also this is, 'the Shabat was made for man, not man for the
Shabat' -- here I want to bring in PVK's phrase, 'to build a
beautiful world of beautiful people' (and in later years he would
add, 'amidst an ugly world of ugly people' -- only my brother
could say that phrase with the proper touch of enduring humoour --
like someting out of a TV show, The Simpsons maybe --  
   This is more than 'derekh eretz', it comes closer to what folks
must mean by civilization. 
     I really must buy a new pair of pants, one without a rip in
it. 

(b18-7a)
[ Everyone knows, RSC used to teach:  the kavanah is not 'pour out
YOUR wrath upon the the nations that have not known YOU', but
rather, 'pour out YOUR warmth'.  The Hebrew text will support that
alternate reading. ]

According to some you have to eat the afikomen before 
midnight also, but only the first night.  
(b18-7b)	

(b18-7b)
[ But this -- that on the 2nd night you do not have to eat the
afikomen before midnight -- contradicts a story, with RSC told, of
the hosid who falls alseep on Pesach afternoon, and wakes up so
late he has to rush though the second Seder, and is crestfallen,
but then his Rebbe says, it was his second Seder that was the
great one. ]

He
would ask him the craziest things in the world, and he would
answer him
in the craziest way in the world because he was crazy. 
(b18--8a) 

(b18--8a)
[ sounds like a dervish -- he looks crazy, and he acts crazy, be
he ain't the one who's crazy, you are .
But maybe it ain't a dervish, just a meshugana.  The difference is
between Heaven and hell, from here they both look about the same. 
But not when you get there. ]


Leyl shmura means the night when G_d is watching.
(b18-9a)  
 
(b18-9a)
[ But the the usual translation is, 'a night of watching'.
Meaning, a night when one watches, as the children of Israel were
on the watch for the moment when they should leave.
So it seems to me, this, no less than Shavuot, is a night when it
is appropriate to say awake all night -- and the Hagada passage
about the 3 rabbi's seems to be strong hinting that. ]

The Seder is s combination of everything I
was high on all year long. 
(b18-9b)
(b18-9b)
[ I thought that matza tasted rather like peyote.]

