;.l1,6,60,66,1,0,10,75,192,2,15,20,25,127,10,0,
=shara005
(Minor corrections to version Posted to reb-shlomo LIST)
Transcription:  R. Shlomo Carlebach, Collection AR, Tape AA005
Tape is TDK D90 - IEC Type I; this is apparently a relative G2copy from G1=A005a, orig. SONY 510816{that's the SONY number, nota date} C90 

INTERVIEW OF R. SHLOMO CARLEBACH BY ROBERT COHEN ON A LIVE RADIOPROGRAM, YEDID NEFESH, Radio Station WCBS-FM (New York city, as Irecall) 
Date is evidently  Wednesday, December 18, 1980.

Date not stated, but from remarks on tape, date is presumably1980.  Dari is referred to as being Age 2. 
Date is apparently Wednesday December 18 [since in the weatherforecast "the weekend", meaning the day after Friday, is referredto as 'the Solstice', ie Dec. 21]

Clearly recorded from radio, which explains why the Tape Side Astarts after the start of the Interview.

Includes:  An original version of the Holy Hunchback story(recorded on Best-60's, as transcribed: =sh_bst60).  But in manyrespects the latter version is richer, though this version adds afew points.  Someone should, eventually, try to compile a moredefinitive edition of R. Shlomo Carlebach's stories, integratingmultiple versions. 

N.B.:  The Interviewer, whose remarks in general I omit, abridge,or paraphrase, is both sympatico and quite intelligent, andminimally imposes his own agenda.    R. SC is a very goodinterviewee -- he lets himself be drawn out by good quetions, but(until he loses steam, and drops out of warp, about mid-waythrough Side A) holds to his own agenda despite epiphenomenalquestions.  Sound quality is quite good.
	I've done practically a complete verbatim transcription of R.SC's remarks, but have dropped out maybe 25% of the `y'knows''s,without noting those omissions with an ellision ... mark .  
A bit of elision is justifiable in this sort of dialogue format,where sometimes both speakers talk at once, interactively.   

Presumably WCBS-FM, in New York City, has a complete original tapeof this interview by Richard Cohen, host of Yedid Nefesh, on,apparently, Wednesday December 18, 1980.            

----------------------------------------------------------------
START, in medias res,  RECORDING OF INTERVIEW ON %AR-a005 

	Transcribed from Side B:{C804} -- about 43 minutes from startof tape; checked against recording at start of SIDE A {C000}:
---------------------------------------------------------------
{START SIDE A {C000}/=START SIDE B {C:804}}

(R. SC: Begins here:} every little girl needs a little hero on theside, you know, besides parents.   The question is, who is thathero.  
Interviewer:  Besides parents.
R. Shlomo: Yeah.
R. SC:  And I had the privilege of having [[those little {apparentmis-speak]] -- some great rabbis being my big heros -- you know,like.  But there's -- you can have a big hero and he doesn't knowyou.  But imagine if you have a hero who knows you also, you know.And I had the privilege of those great rabbis being in my house,and I hooked up to them. 

Interviewer Remarks: I've been very lucky doing this work, thatI've been able to get know more closely and personally some of mymost important teachers ...

R. SC:  I tell you something very very deep, you know.  Like -- achild needs a hero -- let's say, while I'm dreaming, when I'mlittle -- how do I want to be when I'll be big.   So you needsomething, you know.  So I had the privilege ?of being with? thosegreat rabbis, who I was hoping myself, I'd be maybe like them, youknow -- a little bit like them -- But the speciality was thatthose great rabbis, you know, not only they showed me who theyare, they also, without saying anything -- making myself too big.big -- they really loved me so much, this [implicit confidence]always told me , what I can do when I'll be big, you know.  Andthey gave me so much courage and strength, you know, like -- I hadlike this -- I don't know, so I'm telling you stories:

One of the greatest geniuses before the War -- absolutelyunsurpassed -- was Reb Motke ?Pedermanski?. Great great genius.  
And the Kovner Rov, who was one of the greatest rabbis, said hewould have been, in the time of the Beis Yosef, the time of thecomposer of the Shulchan Aruch, he would have been, even in thattime, one of the greatest geniuses in the world. 
And before the 2nd World War, if any Jew in Poland [[or Russia]] - not Russia; [Russia]  was already cut off -- Poland or Lithuaniawas sick,  they'd come to Vienna.   So he was sick, and he stayedin my house, and then he rented a room next to us, he had to be inVienna for half a year for treatments.  And I had the privilege to[sic, to] taking walks with him every day.  And you know, he waslike, maybe one of my deepest friends in this -- in my lifetime,you know.  
	So I had a tremendous childhood, you know.

Interviewer:  ... they made you aware of your own powers, of yourown abilities, {R. Shlomo acknowleges the point, with an Uh-huh.}they kind of encouraged you to feel your own strength. ...
	Was there something about them as persons, in terms of howthey related to people, as well as to you, that was important.  Aswell as the learning, which would be obvious.

R. SC:  
	I tell you what, I would lie now if I would tell you that Iremember that; I don't, you know.   But what I remember my wholelifetime is that they were -- always telling me what they expectof me, when I'll be older.                  
	So this was very important to me.
	And then, when I came to America, my two big heros inlearning, after Reb  Yosef Shlomo Hyman -- was really my greatestteacher -- in depth, you know, like  -- he was so deep, y'know,like   -- whenever he said something to me, I mamash I'd felt --inside of me, like somebody just suddenly turned on the sun -- imagine it's dark night, and somebody turns on the sun -- so muchlight -- was like, so much light coming into my head -- 
{END DUPLICATE RECORDING ON END OF SIDE B{C932}; RESUMETRANSCRIPTION FROM SIDE A {C065}} 

	And then in learning, was also Reb Ahron Kottler, inLakewood, was unbelieveable, this sharpness, and the vastness ofhis scope of his learning.  See, Reb Shlomo Hyman was deep-deep,and Reb Ahron was sharp-deep. {sa1}

Ok, so I had those two unbelieveable teachers. And  this was on alearning level.  And then on the spiritual level, you know, sincewe were little kids, we had met the Lubavitcher Rebbe in Vienna,and this was so special, and so beautiful, you know, the OldLubavitcher Rebbe, so holy and he was -- I really felt connectedto his soul, and also, he let us know, that his soul is connectedto ours, you know. 

Inteveriew:  Let me ask you about Lubavitch.  You mentioned acertain -- sweetness in the relationship.  How did it develop. Becuase you actually worked close with the Lubavitcher Rebbe for afew years.

R.SC:  Yeah, I came out -- it was the present Lubavitcher Rebbe --it  was so close -- I mean I still -- he's still the holy ofholiest, and very strong, but -- You see, at a certain point, theRebbe called me in and he says, I think you have talents to talkto people, I want you to go out in the world and talk to youngpeople.  And I did this for him for 4 years.  It was unbelievable.
Interviewer:  I think he was worried(?) about your talent.

R. SC.  I don't know.  But then, one of the major things whichmade me  a little bit drift away from Lubavitch -- I don'tremember exactly how it happened -- I walked in to the Rebbe onetime, and I said to him that ah -- Let us assume I'm coming to acollege, and I have 100 kids. Let's hope 100 people come to hearme.  So I say, boys on one side, girls on the other side.  I lost90.  Then I say, girls don't sing.  There are 10 left.  Out of the10 I lost 9.   So then I'm sitting with one shlepper, and not [or:I'm not] the greatest.   You know, it's like, if someone has aheart attack, you don't look at their toe-nails, right.                     
	Let's ASSUME -- it is very important that boys and girlsshould not sit together.  Let's assume it's very very importantgirls shouldn't sing.  Let's assume for one second; let's assumeit. But it's 2 million miles more important that I should reach astudent, tell them what it is to be a Jew, the first thing, right. So the Rebbe says to me, I cannot tell you to tell it, I cannottell you not to do it, if you want to do it, do it on your own. So, slowly slowly [tr. of modern Sephardi Hebrew, l'at l'at] , Ilike drifted away. 

	Also something else really, which turned my heart over.  Iwas very strong, you know.  I had a girl, in one of my classes --at then I was strictly Lubavitch.  Like I was crazy.  I wouldnever go on the subway without at least getting 5 people, withnames and numbers, and turn them on to Lubavitch.   I was verystrong. 

	But anyway, I was learning, strictly by ______ from_____?Rebbe?  Lubavitch, and everything.  
	There was one girl, I knew she was really in bad shape when Imet her, you know, and b'ruch '' I had the privilege of bringingher a little bit back to Yiddishkeit.  And after coming to mylearning for half a year, y'know, one time she came up, and shesays, you know, mamash, I'm so thankful to you, that you broughtme back to Yiddishkeit.  And she wants to give me a big hug,y'know, without meaning anything bad.  I shrieked [or: freaked]away, like, you know, like atomic explosion, and y'know whathappened, the saddest thing is -- I never seen her since.  {Pause}
	And I was sick over myself, I says, crazy, where's my ?act?{maybe R. SC takes back that word}, where's my sensitivity, thisgirl didn't didn't mean anything bad.  I mean, there's -- crazy,y'know  -- I realize, I better check on -- if I want to have to dowith young people, I have to know (?)what/where/when(?), you know--  

	And something else -- let's see -- Later on, I realized onething. You cannot just come to young people and tell them, I wantto show you the way to Yiddishkeit.   Today young people are sohungry -- you know, they're hungry for a father, for a mother, andfor a friend.  For a brother, for a sister.  They are so lonely,most people today.  Very few people, in their life, reach theirhearts and their souls.  They're just -- lonely.  Y'know.  So if Ican meet any boy and girl and adopt them at that moment to be myclosest dearest sweetest friend, my brothers or my sisters, that's the best I can do.

	So anyway, from -- at this point, I just -- {indistinct} --every person I meet I meet, I assume that I know them since Mt.Sinai, every person I assume and I know they're my brother and mysister -- and sometimes I meet children {R. Shlomo seems to takeback that term} -- young people who mamash need a father -- Iadopt them as my son, my daughter -- and sometimes I just tellthem right away on the spot, you know, I'm adopting you -- andthat's the end, I want you to adopt me.

Interviewer:  ... The 60's was a period ... there was a sense inwhich you were more at home -- 

R. SC:  You mean, I was one of the leftover holy hippies from the'60's -- Yeah, could be. 

(Interviewer continues: ... there was a sense that your style, aswell as something of the message ... was responding to thesensibility, where people were at ...

R. SC:  You know, I was always under the impression that thehippies of the 60's were the truest followers of the Baal Shem.The deepest followers.   And I don't even know if all his hasidimwere on that level.  You know.  Maybe they didn't know so muchabout yiddishkeit, on the ?world? [or: word] level, but on thesoul level, they really, really, mamash loved the world. 

(Interviewer: I think that they felt that you felt that way, theyresponded to that ...

	Do you know what kind of Friday nights we had in the House ofLove and Prayer, you know.  
	I'll tell you a way-out thing.  At one time I took a planeParis--London--San Francisco.  There's a non-stop London--SanFrancisco.  And it's a very small plane, so you sit tight.  It'sabout 17 hours flight, or maybe 15 hours.  I arrived in SanFrancisco Friday afternoon, and the craziest thing happened, theplane was delayed, I couldn't even drive back to the House (HLP)anymore.  Like half the way we were driving, and then it waslicht-bentschen, we had to walk, for an hour and a half.  I mean,from such a long flight, and walking an hour and a half, I cameinto the House, and I was really exhausted.  And kids came in todaven -- hundreds and hundreds of kids in those days -- it was sofull that sometimes people had to get through the window to getinto the house.  So anyway, so, I said to Arieh, my right-hand manat that time [ Libby Bottero recalls -- this is Aryeh Coopersmith] , I said, you know something, you really have to give my thingtonight, I'm knocking out the davening, I just don't havestrength.   They began davening about 8 o'clock.  And you know, inthose days, I would translate every word, and from Lcha Dodi on,from Mizmorl'Davidon, and ____ wasstories,andsinging, and allkinds of things.  Finally we come to Shalom Aleichem.  I askedArieh, what time is it.  He says, 20 after 4.
Interviewer:  20 after 4 in the morning?
R. SC:  20 after 04:00 in the morning. 
Interviewer:  Shalom Aleichem now would be before you were goingto sit down eat.
R. SC:  Usually in those days davening lasted all night.  I don'tever remember going to sleep Friday night in the House of Love andPrayer, before between 05:00 and 07:00. 
Interviewer: I believe it.
R. SC:  It was unbelieveable. 

Interview:  Describes HLP for audience "... a communual Jewishpalace that was a center for community -- and also specificallyfor Shabbos, davening, and Shabbos  {R. Shlomo adds: learning},getting together, learning, meals, and this was in San Francisco.   
R. SC:  Lasted 10 years, from '66 to '76. 

Interviewer:  Good, so that's in place.  {Interviewer speaking toradio audience:} Again, just so we don't leave anybody behind,people should know that when we refer to davening, people shouldknow that  we're talking about praying -- Jewish praying. 

R.SC:  You see, Let me tell you in a nutshell, because you askedme about my spiritual wanderings:  You see, I was always -- I'msure you were the same way -- maybe everyone is the same way, I'msure -- I always want the utmost utmost utmost.  We are living ina world where growing up means to compromise, you know, wantingless. 	

Interviewer:  Maybe it always does.

R. SC:  That's what people think growing up means.  For me,growing up means, to want more and more and more and more.  Tohave the strength to compromise less. 
	{R. SC resumes the story of his growth:} Ok:  Here I'mlearning in Yeshiva all my life, 24 hours a day, right.  And whileI was in Yeshiva, I was really divorced from the world.  I mean, Iknew there was a world, I didn't know what's going on.  I'm comingout into the world, and suddenly I see, that 80% of our Jewishkids don't know anything about Yiddishkeit.  Not only they don'tknow anything about Yiddishkeit, anything reaches them more thanYiddishkeit.  Anything else in the world.  
	And I realize if -- you know, after the 6 million we -- everyJew -- I mean, every Jew was always precious but now it's even --6 million times more, right.   And here I'm -- I was a rabbi in asynagogue for half a year, and to tell you the truth, I hadn'tlearned yet how to reach them. 
 
Interviewer:  That wasn't your vocation exactly, maybe. 

R. SC:  No, but I -- Maybe now I would know how to do it.  At thattime I know I didn't.  I didn't talk to them Shabbos about theportion of the week in a way that -- that they should findthemself in that portion of the week.   And I did [or: ?didnt'?]learn it in Yeshiva, you know.  So I realized that I have to relearn on my own.  And you see what it is, why I'm so close to thehippies, because I began learning from them.  I made them into myRebbes.  

Interviewer:  What did you learn from them.

R. SC: And I didn't learn words from them.  But somehow I openedmy heart, and let their light shine into my neshoma.  And betweenmy words and their lights, ?or we? put it together a little bit.   
Interviewer:  And I would add another ingredient, which was yourmusic.  When did the music really become so much a part, such anabsolutely integral part, you can't think of Shlomo Carlebachwithout singing, without your own songs -- when did that become apart  of your outreach.
        
{HOW THE RABBI WAS INSPIRED TO BECOME A MUSICIAN UPON LEARNING inGREENWICH VILLAGE THAT TO PLAY GUITAR ONE NEEDS ONLY TWO CHORDS}

R. SC:  It was actually one of the greatest miracles in the world. In the year 1958, I was in the Village [ Greenwich Village, NYC,from 14th St. to Houston, and from West Broadway to maybe 3rdAvenue ] at a party, and there I saw somebody playing a guitar,exactly two chords.   Can you imagine.  

Interviewer:  You mean, whatever they did, they did with twochords.

R. SC:  Everything two chords.  Minor or major, he only knew twochords on the guitar.  And I realized, with two chords, you canaccompany yourself to every melody in the world.   So I boughtmyself a guitar, and maybe you know, Anita Shier, she's one of thegreatest greatest flamenco players in the world, a Jewish girl,she lives in the Village still.  And somebody told me about her. I called her up, and I told her, I don't want to know music, Ijust want to know chords, you know.  And one time or another Iplayed a melody for her, she says, oh, that's very beautiful.   Isays, I just made it up.  She says, Ah, you know, that's reallybeautiful. 
Interviewer:  Was that the first point at which you were awarethat you could compose melodies?
R. SC: Yeah.  I mean I knew I -- I thought to myself, I'm singinga little bit, but it's nothing, nothing to talk about.  You know,that song I was singing to her was Od Yishama {R. SC hums P140:

  D D a D e^ / F F d F f / G G d F b^ / fe^ de^ F F [bis]

often used in the chevre for Shir haMalot} 
{R. SC: a few words indistinct, interviewer & interviewee talkingsimultaneously} she said to me, that's an unbelieveable song, youknow.  And then I called her up a day later, you know, I was inDelancy Street in the subway [the IND line, probably the F-trainfrom Brooklyn, if memory serves: transfer to the 7th Ave. IRT,local stopping at 4th St. ] and I says, you know, this soundscrazy, just made up a little melody, you know -- it was Esa Einai. And she wrote it out for me in notes.   

Interviewer:  Some of the classics came from the very beginning.

R. SC: And then I realized also one thing: that whatever peopledon't want to hear -- but if you tell it them between one song andanother, they're ready to hear it.   Their heart is more open.  	Because you see, most people feel guilty about being Jewish,right, everything.  And if you just tell it to them, they turnoff, [they think subconsciously] I don't want to feel more guilty.But if you tell it in between songs, when their heart is moreopen, then they know, I don't want you to feel guilty, I just wantyou to be a little bit better, you know. 
 
Interviewer:  ... When you both sing and teach .... you're reaching people on more levels, nourishing people on more levels,than you could just by teaching.  I'm not even sure that it's afunction of being alienated from Judaism.  When I'm not feelingalienated, I still am lifted up by songs.      

	Speaking of which, let's take a brief and appropriate musicalbreak to hear some of Shlomo's songs, and we'll be back.
Break:  A very young, slow, rather USA-nostalgic recording of EsaEina:  Yet in many ways R. Shlomo's voice had more potential, andstrength -- though it was not then actualized -- then, than itdoes in his mature recordings.                                    
{C300} -- Apr. 19.5 minutes from start of tape. }
Interviewer:  From one of his earliest records... 
Interviewer:  I'm Robert Cohen, this is Yedid Nefesh, and we'retalking with Shlomo Carlebach ... really one of the most importantteachers for our generation ...
	... I want to pick up ... on the kinds of considerations thatmake you something of a rebel or at least a maverick ... 
	[Asks R. Shlomo for his opinion on:] what is not beseder,what is not in place, about the priorities for transmissino oftraditional Judaism of the orthodox, hasidic and yeshivacommunities. 

R. SC:  Ok, I'll tell you in a nutshell.  Which I felt the most --I knew it inside, but then I always feel it more and more and moreand more -- They're not connected to the world, you know.  And G_dcreated the world, it's G_d's world, everything is so beautiful,the world is so beautiful.  And I have a very strong feeling, thatafter the 6 million -- maybe before the 6 million -- I as a Jew --just my being in the world is enough to bring G_d's message to theworld, and maybe that's all that G_d needed, at that moment. 
After the 6 million, we are living with the whole world, face-toface. [ie, Panim -- breath to breath -- sa]

{Comment (sa):  A different but related point: Amy Lilien Shamessaid:  if you live in Yehuda-Shomron, you do something just bybreathing. }       

	And I don't mean, like some people say, oh you have toassimilate, to live in a goyische world -- I don't mean that -- tobe more Jewish -- face-to-face.

Interviewer:  More relationship, more interaction?

R. SC:  More loving the world. you know, the world exists.  Everyperson exists, for me.   
	In most of [Jewish] religious circles, you know, the goyischeworld doesn't exist.  Maybe they do, but not really, not in thedepths of their hearts.   I know what's going on, you know.  Iknow myself, how I was in Yeshivas.   Maybe it's was very holy but-- it wasn't holy for me.                       
	I felt also, you know:  There is not enough love between thepeople there.  {Comment (sa):  I think R. SC is here referringprimarily to the (ultra)-orthodox community, not to the Yeshivacommuinity within it}   There is not enough love. The emphasis isnot on loving.  You know, you walk in orthdox circles { Comment(sa):  I think reference is to ultra-orthodox, not to modernorthodox}, who's called an orthodox person -- someone whose wifehas a sheitle, and who buys glatt kosher meat.  I've never heardsomeone saying, this man is really orthodox:  have you ever seenthe way he talks to people, have you ever seen the way he talks tohis children -- so holy, so sweet.   You know I have seen someonesaying -- You know, can you eat in this person's house; I say,Yeah, he buys glatt kosher meat.  I'd love to hear:  You can eatin his house, you know, he invites guests with all his heart, withall his soul; he loves people so much.  {C400 -- apr. 25 minutesfrom start of tape} They don't say that.

Interviewer: Can I ask you something?
R. SC: Yeah.
{Comment (sa):  The correct answer is:  Just did.}
Interiewer: [paraphrase:  a Talmudic follow-up:  if mitzvotbetween persons are greater importance than kashrut, would you eatin the home of someone who was exemplary in the former, butnegligent in the latter. ]  [Would you eat in the home someone whois a good person, but who serves pork, or serves hamburger that isnot kosher, or serves fish on plates that are not kosher (separateplates for fleishig/milichig), or they serve you kosher food onkosher plates but also eat non-kosher food in the home ] 

R. SC: No, I still wouldn't eat by them.  I wouldn't eat, becauseit's not kosher.  But I would still -- You know what I would do --I would go to their house and just -- {R. SC sounds as if he isimparting a trade secret to a junior colleague} -- you know, youcan always eat something, you can eat some bread, you can buysomething else.  You know people are not angry when you tell them,you know, you're kosher, I can only eat this or that.  They're notstupid, they're not angry at me, you know. 	

{Comment (sa):  As I understand it then, in a home that did notobserve halachic kashrut, R. Shlomo would not sit down and eatwhatever was served with whatever kelim it was served on; but hewould sit down and eat kosher food, not served in a non-koshermanner, within that home; including breaking bread with andprobably from the family of that home. }

Interviewer:  "But aren't you accepting then, the mainstreamorthodox definition of kashrut -- of what is kosher, of who(!??)is kosher."   
{Commment (sa): '"Who is kosher" seems to be a red herring, orpossibly a red swordfish.}

R. SC:  I -- 100%.  The Shulchan Aruch says what is kosher, youknow.  I cannot change _____ and say it's kosher, it's not kosher,y'know.   But I'm telling you -- imagine, you know, if I have ashul, and I have to make a leader of the Jewish community, and Iwill take somebody who's rather ?besheitel? and he eatsglatt(?)[?;`glatt' or: 'not'] kosher, and he's a low rotten creep,I may not even permit him to come to my shul, you know. 
   You see, we need both.  Obviously G_d wants everything, youknow. You see, I'm not saying, G_d doesn't need that -- G_d needsthe whole thing, right.   To be a complete healthy Jew, whyshouldn't you have everything, y'know.  But when I talk to myself-- imagine, I have one evening to spend -- whom will I spend it to-- will I sit with somebody who eats glatt kosher meat but isrotten to the core inside, or someone who maybe doesn't buy?glatt? [or: it] kosher, but he's so sweet and so holy and inside. I want to sit with that person.

Interviewer:  ... if you can do mitzvot .... but not be a personwith a sense of religious presence, with a sense of spirituality,with something that shows in the way they relate to people ...
If the mitzvot aren't sufficient to develop a religiouspersonality, and they're not necessary to, either, so why dothem?" 
       
R.SC:  Has v'sholom.  Brother -- ?machmere? -- the mitzvas are asimportant to my  [or: man] as my feet, you know.  Listen, hasv'sholom a person can live without a hand, but it don't mean I'dlike to be a person without a hand.   You can live without a foot,you know.  I need a hand and a foot, I'm not talking about that. The question is only -- you see what, I'm doubting -- imagine ifyou keep Shabbos, and you're still ______?bitter?  -- I doubt ifyou know what Shabbos is all about.   I doubt if you know what G_dis all about.

Interviewer:  "And what will it do for you.  Suppose you're aperson of some religiosity.  Suppose you keep shabbos and you doknow what it's about." 
                         
R. SC: Brother, ?just let me? add one more thing which I thinkwill clarify the whole thing.  
	When I came to the realization that it's not their fault,it's their Rebbe's fault, right -- because the way we teachorthodoxy to our children is -- that an orthodox Jew is someonewho keeps kosher.  Or why don't we teach them, that a Jew has toshine from one corner of the world to the other.  Why don't weteach them that after every word of Torah you learn, you have tolove every Jew more.  Because this is what Reb Nachman says:  Ifyou want to know the whole Torah, unless you love every Jew, youwill not understand the Torah.  {sa2}

So you see what it is.  So I personally, I'm not telling anybodyelse what to do.  But I personally realize, that -- if -- I livein this world, and I want to be a Jew, and I want to serve G_d --I want to be much better than that, and much deeper.

Interviewer: "Let me talk to you about some of the [non-Jewishspiritual] places where 'some of our kids' -- as you say -- aregoing.  OK?  Becasuse you talked about that we need to be more inrelationship to the rest of the world [ie, to the non-Jewishworld...] -- I hope I'm re-stating that fairly faithfully -- OK? - so I think one of the realities that people have is of therebeing, first of all, of their being, first of all,  very spiritualpeople -- very fine spiritual teachers in other paths, in othertraditions.  That you can meet such people....that there issomething about the spiritual life, and the spiritual path -- whatwe would `a mensch' --  being a full person in the best sense,that can be learned from those places. So my question would be: what sort of relationsjo[ do you think we ought to have to otherpaths, to spiritual people and teachers within those others,paths, and can't we in fact learn something from them."

R. SC:  You see, you're asking me a very very very very very deepquestions.  You see I can only talk for myself. Every person, asfar as I'm concerned, is a little revelation of G_d.   And I'msure I can walk down to a bar, and meet some drunkards, and I'msure they'll teach me great secrets about G_d which I will neverknow.  And I firmly believe that all those great religiousleaders, maybe -- and also, I'm sure they know something about G_dwhich I don't know, which I would love to learn from them. Doesn't mean I have to walk their path.  
	You see what it is:  There is two ways of knowing G_d.  Thereis a way of knowing G_d within the framework of creation, this wasgiven to the children of Noach.  As much as a person can knowabout G_d within the framework of creation, this was given to thewhole world.  We know G_d because we met him face-to-Face, on Mt.Sinai. 
	You know, imagine, there is someone who knows a girl becausehe saw pictures of her.  And I know the girl because I met her. So the way a Jew knows G_d -- or is supposed to know G_d.   Butyet, you see, let's put in this way.   I know this girl face-toface, but still maybe there are certain details which Ioverlooked, right.   So a person who saw a picture can tell me,y'know:  Her nose is that long, and her ears are that big.  And Ican learn from them. {sa3}

Interviewer:  ... You said that with every piece of Torah welearn, we should be loving every Jew the stronger for it. Shouldn't we be loving every person [non-Jewish as well asJewish].

R. SC:  I didn't say `every Jew'.  
Interviewer: {Cheerfully}:  Well, ok, I thought that you did, butmaybe this is a different way of looking at it. 

R. SC:  Let me tell you something:  And this is a tora-le from RavKook, from the late holy Chief Rabbi.  The way we love the world,is via all the Jews.  My way to love the whole world is by [or:via] loving all the Jews.  And if I really love all the Jews, thenI have the strength to love the whole world.  My vessels are bigenough.  If I only love one Jew or two Jews, then first of all Idon't love all the Jews, and I definitely don't love the world. 

Interviewer:  Is that relationship to the world still part of thegoal for you?

R. SC:   Yeah, 100%. 

Interviewer:  ... I think one problem some people having `gettinginto' Judaism -- I mean that both as one word and as two, both as'getting in' and also as 'getting into', having access to Judaism-- is how often Judaism is presented as so much a story of tsoris,of suffering, of persecution.   That the main events in thehistory of the Jewish people is persecution.  

{Comment (sa):  Personally, growing up assimilated, in aprogressive [ie, left/liberal] home, in a university culture, myfirst self-definition of myself as Jewish -- I suppose as was 11or 12 or so -- was as a member of an oppressed people, with anentailed obligation to stand up for the rights of all otheroppressed peoples. }

 ... [I sometimes have a sense that too much is made of theHolocaust as a point-of-departure for defining Jewish identity.] "And some say, if you should be Jewish, it's because after all ...[Nazi-ism] wanted to kill us. "  {sa4}

R. SC:  I agree with you 2 million percent.     Because anythingwhich is based on sadness, or anti-this anti-?this-ism?  becaisethis is already meaningless.  I have never said to anyone, youhave to be a Jew because of the Holocaust, you have to be a Jewbecause of anything -- [rather,] You have to be a Jew [simply]because you are.  And actually, the main thing I like to do, isbring the joy of Yiddishkeit to the world. 
	Last year I was invited in Germany.  And you know, when a Jewcomes to Germany, they're always talk about he Holocaust.  I wasin Germany, there were hundreds, hundreds of people, -- I wasinvited by non-Jewish people, and you know what happened:  Mamash,I just told them about our dream that the world will be one [Cf.Alenu ] and -- the dancing, and the joy, and the love, was so high-- y'know -- it was just, unbelieveable, y'know.  After theconcert was over, every person there wanted to go to Yerushelayimthe next day.  And it was only because I didn't say anything aboutthe past, didn't say anything about what Jews went through -- or[or: all that] suffering, or crying -- on the contrary, because --I think you're 100% right.

Interviewer:  What relationship should we have to our past that will be something other than y'know gloom-and-doom Judaism, andyet keeps us connected to the events of the past.

R. SC:  Let me tell you:  I talk about the Holocaust, y'know, infact, I'm thinking of giving out a record 

{Note (sa): Maybe this means:  a record of his experiences ofNazi-ism, prior to emigration -- but more likely it just means tomake a record with stories and songs -- apparently this interviewwas given before recording was on cassetts; when it was till onvinyl records } 

-- what I would like my children to know -- ok, y'know.  Youcannot forget all the terrible things which happened to us.  But - let's say I want my babies to know -- who the people were -- wholived at that time.  You know, all those big Rebbes.  How holythey were.  And -- how much the Holocaust made them even holierand deeper and greater. Y'know.  I have a few stories, which Iought to put on a record some day, and some songs -- which Ireally want my children to know, for ever and ever.

Interviewer:  Could you share with us --  
R. SC, {hopefully, maybe hoping to be asked to sing one of theall, practically-lost hasidic niggunim}:  Those songs?
Interviewer: one of those stories. 

R. SC:  Ok, I'll tell you one story.

Interviewer:  ... You want to concentrate on the Jews who livedthen, and what you see as very holy and precious about them; and... now, in terms of the Jewish relationship to the Holocuast, people are more interested ...that we shouldn't forget theidentity of each of the Nazi persecutors ...

R.SC:  It's very important too, but that's not my thing.

Interviewer:  [Mentions the need to indentify each victim of theHolocaust individually {the founding principle of Yad v'Shem --each one had a hand, and a name}, not just to lump them as 'thesix million'. "I don't know that we have that much of a sense ofwho those people were, and what kinds of lives they led."]

R. SC:   I'd love to do it, because I feel, there's so much theneed for it, you know.  All those Holocaust classes, you walk out-- maybe it's important -- you walk out crying, and sad, and --becomes a point I don't want to know about it any more. You're notdoing the world --  
	There was a yiddele Reb Kalman, Reb Kolonymous Kalman -- ofPiershonetz, one of the biggest Rebbes in the world -- thespeciality of him was, that while he was in the Warsaw Ghetto, hewrote a book, which is called ?Achshoretz Abrechem? -- Prepareyourself, young people.  And the beautiful thing about this bookis, he doesn't `write-about',mamash he writes to you.  You know,when you read it, mamash he talks to you, and you can mamash hearhis voice -- you can hear his voice talking to you.  And he really talks to us, to young people, how to prepare yourself to be aservant of G_d, to be a real Jew.  To be a prophetic Jew --`beyond_Jew'(?) {I'm not sure of that phrase, nor how to take it - beyond 'Jew' -- or: `beyond_Jew'  -- or `beyond Jew'}.  And ifyou think of it, he wrote this while he was in the Warsaw Ghetto.Working in a shoe factory.  And he was sitting in a corner, inbetweeen working on the shoes -- finishing his book.  And he wasso holy, he knew when -- when he'll be deported.  
{Comment (sa):  This is not clear to me:  I had supposed heremained in the Warsaw Ghetto through the German crushing of theWarsaw Ghetto uprising. So maybe 'deported' simply means:  'theday the Warsaw Ghetto was crushed, and its survivors sent to theirdeaths.} 

	The day before that, he buried it under a stone, in theWarsaw Ghetto.  After the War was over, a little Polish boy wentup to an American soldier; he says: I found -- here's some piecesof paper, under a stone, would you like to buy it for a dollar. And this American soldier who bought it was not Jewish, but he hadsome Jewish friends.  He gave him the dollar, he brought it to hisJewish friends, they -- brought it to a rabbi, and there was aletter affixed to it, in Hebrew, in Yiddish and in German.  And itsays like this:  When you find this manuscript, there will be nomore Jews in Poland.  Maybe no more Jews in Europe. Maybe no moreJews in the world.  But I know, there'll always be Jews in Israel. Please, I'm begging you, take this manuscript to Israel, and askthe people to print it.  And I promise, whoever will learn mybook, I will pray for them in heaven. 
	Ok, the book is unbelieveable.  Then he also wrote a book,Aish Kodesh, holy fire -- toras on the portion of the week.  Andyou have to realize, this man was in the lowest hell, and you know-- now is not the time, but this is also one of the few books, Ireally think, turns people on like _____ -- toras from AishKodesh.  This is toras like -- unbelieveable toras, you know --deepest depths. 

Interviewer: 'toras' meaning:  'commentaries on the Torah'
R. SC:  Teachings.  
	Ok, listen:  so this is the story.
	My whole life, I'm learning those two books, Aish Kodesh and Achshoretz Abrehem [the two books by R. Kolonymous Kalman ].  AndI was longing so much to meet one person, who ever saw Reb Kalmanpersonally.  So my great day comes.  I'm walking down, from theHilton in Tel Aviv, on the other side of the little hotel, MelonHaShalom, and I see a real -- you know, a yiddische zer-broch-eleYid, a broken Jew.  A hunchback, completely disfigured, you know. Like the Hunchback of Notre Dame, you know, something like that;awesome the way he's disfigured.  And -- sweeping the floors, onthe street -- {R. Shlomo is apparently groping for the Englishword, having gone through the equivalents of the Hebrew} --street-cleaner. 
	And my heart told me, I should stop and say hello to him.  Isaid, first, you know, in Hebrew, Shalom.  Turned around with me,answered me back like, Hebrew-Yiddish, `Shulam alaichem'.  Youknow.

Interviewer {for the benefit of listeners with little backgroundin Yiddishkeit}:  A version of `Shalom aleichem' -- peace shouldbe to you. 

R. SC: 
	I start to talking to him, I say in Yiddish, where are youfrom.  He says, I'm from Piersoneska.  Unbelieveable.  I say, fromPiersoneska -- have you ever seen Reb Kolonymous Kalman.  He says, what do you mean, Have I seen him.  I have learned in his Yeshivafrom the age of 7 'till I was 12.  And I was there every shabbos. 
	And then he says to me, do you know, I was not a hunchback. He says, I was so strong, that when the Nazis took me to Auchwitz,and I was 12, they thought I'm  17.  The only thing is, they beat me up so much, and it never healed, so I'm completely disfigured.  And he says, I have nobody in the world, nebuch, I'm so --
	Anyway, he says -- Let me tell you this part of the story:  Isaof to him  --- Do you know, I was -- I said to him, give me yourhand again -- this hand touched Reb Kolonymous Kalman, you know.  So he says to me --
	Oh -- I asked him -- please, tell me anything about shabbos. And -- by Reb Kalman, what was the special thing about Shabbos.  
	He says, if I were tell you that until the Meshiach is come,there won't be shabbos like this, because Reb Kolonymous Kalmanhad thousands of kids with him -- He says, I'll tell you one thingwhich saved my life -- 
	-- And this is a story which I want my children always toremember --
	He says:  Reb Kolonymous Kalman would say teachings betweenthe fish and soup, the soup and meat, the meat and the desert. After each teaching he would say:  Kinderlach -- children -- letme tell one thing -- the greatest thing in the world is -- to dosomebody a favour.   He would say it again, between the soup andthe meat:  Kinderlach:  let me tell you -- the greatest thing inthe world is -- to do somebody a favour. 
	He says:  I came to concentration camp.  They killed myfamily.  I wanted to kill myself, I wanted to kill somebody else, 
I was at the end.

{Comment (sa):  Presumably any attack on a Nazi would haveprovoked disproportionate reprisal murders etc. }

  And each time, when I was really at the bottom, suddenly I couldhear my Rebbe's voice:  saying, Kinderle, the greatest thing inthe world is, to do somebody a favour.  He says, do you know howmany favours you can do people in Auchwitz.   People lying allnight crying -- nobody wants to listen to their stories anymore. He says, do you know, I would be up all night, listening tostories.  And this -- saved my life, while I was in Auchwitz. Hesays, do you know, I'm here in Israel.  I'm right close to theocean.  He says, do you know how often I want to kill myself --don't have the strength, I have nobody in the world.  And wheneverI'm on my way down to the ocean, suddenly mamash, I hear myRebbe's voice saying, Kinderle, the greatest thing in the world is[to do] somebody a favor.
	He says, do you know something:  I'm a street-cleaner -- butdo you know, how many favours I can do people every minute,walking around the streets. 

Interviewer:  ... How do you think you've changed most, as aperson, and as a Jew, in the last 10 years, since the '60's, or inthe last 20 years. 

R. SC:  OK, I tell you:  I don't know if I changed, I think Ididn't change at all, but hopefully, I think I'm growing up.  Ithink that I'm -- you know, it sounds stupid maybe -- but I really-- I have such craving, to get deeper and deeper and deeper anddeeper, you know.   And I just hope and hope, I see less evil inother people, you know, hopefully. 

Interviewer:  {A bit of a short shocked pause, I think:}"You mean,as a function of what you see in them, rather than, necessarily --people aren't all that different, but you see -- "

R. SC (Interrupting):  No no, I want to say -- Listen -- there aresome people I know that deep, they're creeps, you know -- andthere was a time when it disturbed me -- and, disturbing me lessand less.  I can still think of them that they're the holy ofholiest, despite that their creepiness, you know.  So in thatrespect, I'm growing up a little bit. 
	But you see, what is always getting more and more clear in myhead is, that what G_d needs of us, is a completely new Jew, whichwas never there before.  {Comment (sa):  the phrase 'which wasnever there before' echos a phrase from one of the Psalms, 'mannain the wildnerness -- which your fathers had not seen before' (I'mquoting approximately, from memory)} 
	See on one hand -- my image, you know -- really become G_d'simage -- in the deepest deepest depths there is -- 

Interviewer:  `Mamash' meaning -- `really' -- right.  
R. SC:  Absolutely.
Interviewer:  On the most real level.
	Has being married, and/or being a father -- how have thosethings changed you -- maybe I shouldn't say, changed you, -- maybeI shouldn't say, 'changed you', say you've grown as a res[ult]

R. SC:  Ok, let me tell you something.  You see, a person has toknow two things:  Has to know to open doors, and sometimes --privacy.  To know ____ ?her? [or: about] privacy is very verydeep.  And really, I didn't know what privacy means, until G_dblessed me, in his infinite mercy, to have a beautiful wife.  AndI know what privacy is.  In a very very deep way.
	And let me tell you something. My children -- you know, theseare really my deepest ______ [?harvest? or ?toras? ].   And youknow, this is one of the things that I missed [or: miss]  so muchin traditional Judaism.  I'm sure they have it, but they don't sayit enough.  They don't talk enough about the holiness of children.  Not enough.  They don't say that the awesome -- the awesomeholiness of children -- you know, the way they are -- 
	And -- they always talk about children -- they grow up,they'll be this [when] they grow up -- Ok, sure, when my childrengrow up, they'll be the greatest Jews -- but the way she is now --this little girl of 2, when she sings, Boi b'shalom [from L'chaDodi ] with me, you know -- if I dance with the Baal Shem,couldn't be holier, right -- 
	Or my Neshamale -- at night, when I say Shma Yisrael with myNeshama, it's so deep, y'know -- it's the deepest depths there is.

Interviewer:  You know, a few weeks ago, one of my guests [on thatradio program], Jonathon Omer-Man, kind of shared a nice insightabout the Ani M'anim: ... you know, if we look at it carefully,it's really saying two things:  I believe in Meshiach, I believein Redemption, {SOUND CUT OFF} {END TAPE A005 SIDE A.{C930})
==============================================================
START SIDE B {C000}

Interviewer:  [ CLEARLY AN IMMEDIATE  CONTNUATION OF SIDE A ] Ibelieve it may not be right now.  It may not be tomorrow.  And ifit's not tomorrow, I'll still believe, and I'll still wait.  AndI'm thinking maybe the waiting is the hardest thing of all.  Itsays in the Pslams, 'those who sow in tears sjpi;d reap in joy'I'm thinking, so often the opposite happens in our life.  Youknow, raised expectations.  You know, we have  a lot of joy -- andthen it's dashed.  It wasn't it. That wasn't the moment we needed,or wasn't the right person, or it's not the redemption that wethink it will be.  We had times like that throughout our history.... how [do] you feel we can  acquire and connect to the koach,the strength" {R.SC interjects 'of waiting'} "to  believe inMeshiach, and to believe in redemption, but also then to wait --and still to believe."

R. SC: See, let me tell you something.  You call me to a streetcorner, says Listen, I want to give you 5 dollars.  You know, 5dollars 's a good thing.  I'm waiting 2 hours, I say, you know,the two hours are not worth five dollars, right.   So I leave. You tell me, brother, I'll give you a thousand dollars.   I'mstanding on the street-corner two hours, I still aren't going toleave, because it's worth it, right.   But I'm not going to standthere for a week, because a thousand dollars is not worth a week,right. {sa5} 

But imagine if you promise me the Meshiach is coming -- and if Iknow what it is -- I'm waiting -- IF you know what the Meshiach isall about, right.
	Let's put it this way, the same thing:
	If I'm just waiting for A girl to marry [ie, for any oldgirl] -- ok, I'm waiting for a few days, I think, really(?) chutzpah, you know, any girl will do, you know.  How long can Iwait.  But if you're waiting for soul-mate -- for ?all? the otherhalf of your soul -- you know what that means -- the other half ofmy soul -- I can wait for a long time, without getting tired.Because it's so awesome, it's so beautiful -- what I'm waitingfor. {sa6}

And I just hope that G_d should always shine into our hearts, whatkind of bliss, what kind of world, what kind of unbelieveableholiness we're waiting for -- and give us strength to wait. 
	{C038}
{Music comes on:  }
Interviewer: Signoff.  I hope we'll be a source of joy, and thatyou'll join us next week.  This is Robert Cohen.  Good night. s
{Music:  Theme song:  Yedid Nefesh}
Radio sign-in comes on:  WCBS-FM
{END PASS 2, PROOF AGAINST TAPE}
The tape stays on, and records what follows on the radio:  a nicesampler of December 1980 nostalgia; just enough taste of the OldCountry to keep one in Israel for a few more years.   I append it{Radio1}	At {C804} -- about 43 minutes from start of tape, thereis a repeat of the first section of Side A.  
{END RECORDING} {END TAPE SIDE B {C932}
==================================================================
Notes will be included in a version Posted to my TemporaryWebsite, www.kinneret.co.il/sa9802
================================================================
.p

saNotes:
{sa1}
{Comment (sa):  Dabbling in philosophy, I was most impressed bythe depth of Stanley Cavell -- at UC Berkely, '61-'62 -- and bythe brilliant breadth of Sydney Morgenbesser, at Columbia, 1963.Later, after having dropped of academic philosophy into,successively,  the political (anti-War) and social (hippiecommune) movements, I was rather influenced by Little Joe Gomez,of Taos Pueblo, and by Pir Vilayat Khan.  While working as NYCSecretary for the Student Peace Union, 1964-1965, I was ratherimpressed by Bayard Rustin, for his tactical ruthlessness, and byDave McReynolds (both officers in the War Resisters' League).

{sa2}
{Comment (sa):  I say:  Unless you live in and understand the Landof Israel -- the entire land, not just Herzaliya nor even justJerusalem [though I once heard R. Shlomo say, at a Ruach Camp atthe Abode, we go to the land of Israel, where do we need gobesides Jerusalem -- as if to say, just to go to Jerusalem wouldbe enough ] then you will not understand the Torah, and especiallynot the halachot.   
	I say, if your pour water over your hands 3 times a day inJanuary in Nome Alaska, that halacha will seem less meaningfulthan if you do so in the Negev in July.   And remember that thehoney on Rosh HaShana is date-paste, because that's when the dateshave ripened, and a lot of them have to be squashed up as paste,because many the birds bit out a piece, or they fell onto theground and got someone squashed, so you can't dry them for winter.
	Reform Judaism is fine for galutz, says I.  For that climate,they're going to need some new halachot, and most likely somechanges in the old ones -- like, about stoking a fire on Shabbatwhen the Siberian wolves are warming their noses on your windowand the babies are debating orthodoxy. 
	Fact is, I don't even know how families with babies gotthrough winter Shabat nights in Jerusalem--Hebron, and the Golan. 
	But I digress. }

{sa3}
{Comment (sa):  In my opinion of my experience, one might bettermake the opposite argument in defense of Judaism:  That there areno lack of genuine mystics from other traditions, whose reports ofmysticism may be more accessible than the obscurantist kabbala ofJudaism.  But halacha -- what path to take once yet get back toearth -- the goyim ain't got. Not even Shabbat, tho darned if Iknow why not -- it's the old story, the Torah was offered to allthe nations (goyim), but only we signed up.  Not the Chosenpeople, but the Choosin' folk. } 

{sa4}
{Comment (sa):  For me, rather the opposite: I grew up assimilatedand left-wing, so it was just that history of persecution thatdrew me to feel obligated to define myself as Jewish -- because byeducation and temperament, I would have been, and to some extentremain, more comfortable with a fundamentally secular,univeralist-oriented standpoint.) 

{sa5}
{ Comment: (sa):  Well, nowadays (1998) $5 would be about 2 hours'pay in Israel; in Dec. 1980  USA minimum wage had just been raisedto $3.10/hr.  As I recall, in those days I could make up to$400/week in the USA playing around typing on computers.  Soevidently R. Shlomo was making ok money in those days.} 

{sa6}
{Comment (sa):  But others say:  Yes, there are soul-mates inheaven, but who says you'd be wise to marry one, when they come toearth.  (I say, might have some great conversations over a pot andcoffee, but to share a 1-room adobe all winter, eating rice andbeans -- oy. ) I say, for starters, what's the guarantee that whenshe comes down to earth, she's of the opposite sex? 
	I say, because it may well be that R. Shlomo Carlebach didfind and marry a soul-mate -- surely a brilliant person -- butapparently, some time later, it became a somewhat difficultmarriage. Incarnation, oy.
	Which reminds me of one of the first parables I recallhearing from R. Shlomo -- heard it at the first Ruach Camp at theAbode of the Message (New Lebananon, NY; Gedalya Persky ran it,and might have tapes).  He said, so a soul gets lured down  {orothers say:  volunteers, or maybe: queues up} to earth, and heasks his parents, ok, I just got here, what to you want me to do,and they say, oh, just hang out, have a few beers, watch some TV,have some laughs; and the new soul says, for this you called meout of heaven? .  R. Zalman once said, best I recall:  This placedoes not have a very good reputation, up there. }

{Radio1}
Commerical for Bell Telephone. 
Satirical commercial.
Pre-Christmas commercial for Kodak Insant Camera.
Commercial for instant soup.
More of these peculiar features.  Advertisments on postage stamps.Low-calorie diets for U.S. draftees. 
Advertisment for Christmas Seals, for the American LungAssociation.
Impact of the peanut shortage on U.S. Zoos. 
Word for the weather helicopter.  34 degrees (Fahrenheit) in midtown Manhattan. 
Public service notice, from the U.S. Dept. of Labour, that thatminimum wage is $3.10/hr.                                  
An Audenesque re-creation of the first Christmas Eve at Bethlehem-- but well done -- "It must have been much like today  -- or whywould redemption have been necessary"  
Dry Sack on the Rocks.
8 million dollars are to be spent on Ronald Reagan'sinnauguration.
Amadeus -- the man, the madness, the new play.
Temperature is 27 Fahrenheit
A review of Ms. Elizabeth David's book on bread, published byKnopf. 
WCBS news time is 8 [minutes] before 5 [o'clock]
The Guardian Angels (in red berets )
Delays on the subways (IRT Line) 
Meteorologist Norm MacDonald.
Lee Iococca pushing Chrysler -- 
Saturday is Dec. 21, Solstice, and also a full moon.
Commercial for Kronenberg beer.
WCBS, New York. 
Acquital in case of the Miami riots. 
Clearly 1980; Chrysler workers asked to freeze their wages for1981.                                              
Reagan's reported choice for cabinet officers. 
-----------
