;.l1,6,60,66,1,0,10,75,192,2,15,20,25,127,10,0,
=sh9403a.txt
{SIDES A AND B PROOF-READ AGAINST TAPE, 28 May 98 (3 Sivan)}
This transcription consists of (=sh9403a.txt + =sh9403b.txt), withfootnotes etc. filed off to =shzs9403, which will be included inthe version posted within =sh0498.exe to my Temporary Website,www.kinneret.co.il/sa9802 
This tape is equally teachings of R. SC and R. ZS, although eachspeaker describes the teachings of the other.  I have titled it'sh*' only because I use the 'sh' prefix on my hard-disc toreference material related to R. SC.

Start WIP Transcription, remarks by R. Shlomo Carlebach within
distributed tape, Farbrengen with Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Sahlomi
and Rabbi Shlbomo Carlebach, March 19, 1994; Co-sponsored by the
Aquarian Minyan and Berkeley Hillel Foundation.  "To order
duplicates, write to the Aquarian Minayan, 412 Monte Vista,
Oakland CA 94611, or call 510-658-8530
with a very nice photo by Yehudit Goldfarb, of R. Shlomo with R.
Zalman ; $18 at T.O.P.

Yehudit Goldfarb notes of the R. Shlomo/R. Zalman tape, that is is
1 of a set of 2.  The first half of tape one contains Zalman's
remarks; a formal greeting by R. Zalman to R. Shlomo (who arrives
late, naturally), "and then the two of them engage in a very
spirited and humorous dialogue for a good half hour or so, until
R. Zalman leaves, with a sweet farewell and blessing."  Notes that
Tape 2, which she is no longer distributing, at the request
(apparently made in 1995, and not since reaffirmed) of Mrs. NC,  ,"is	a mini-concert with Shlomo and Neshama.  Notes that R. Joe
Schonwald (Jerusalem) has copies of both tapes.   "Part of it was
tgrasncribed by me and Elahu McLean, with input from Reb Zalman. 
You can find it on Reshit.org, the website created by Rami
Shapiro.  Due to Zalman's editorial input, the text varies a bit
from the oral version. [N.B.:  I find no significant in that text
from the verbatim original. ]
That Website is:  http://www.rasheit.org

                                  ---------
-------------------------------------------------------------- 
Apparently this was motzi shabbos.
EVALUATION OF TEACHINGS:  A gvalt, but not primarily for advancedstudents.  An implicit expansive (not, in contradistinction,'restrictive') critique of the work of both speakers.
EVALUATION OF TAPE: {Quality:  recorded a bit slow:  Both voices
come out too high.} 
EVALUATION OF AUDIENCE:  Laughs too easily.

{Comment (sa):  Incidentally, I as at U.C Berkeley 2/61--2/63. 
Offhand I don't remember any Jewish activities there.  I don't
know if there was then a synagogue, or even minyan, in Berkeley;though I do recall several good coffe-shops.}
==================================================================

Someone:  "We have individual lives, and we have collective lives,
and life is often a tension between our individual lives and the
life that we lead as part of a larger body  -- a family, a
community, a nation.  Zalman taught us a lot about ourselves,
about the Jewish people, and about how the two could blend, and
each be greater than before.  So now that it's about that point inthe evening when we're ready to hear some words of tora, I'm goingto ask you, Reb Zalman, to come up.

	{C017}
R. Zalman Schachter(-Shalomi)
	Y'know, I"m taking the time machine back those 20 years.There was a couch on this side, and Shlomo and I sat on that, andall of you folks were sitting here, and we both were doing someteaching. 

Shlomo, among all the things that he has in his voluminoussuitcase,	always has some notes of things that -- insights ofTorah that he had.  I had some of my own, and what we did thattime, I remember, was that I handed Shlomo my notes, and I said,You teach Zalman, and he handed me his notes, and I was teachingShlomo.  And that was a remarkable moment, at that time.  We did alot of singing, a lot of good sharing. 
 
	It's 20 years later.  The '60's have become the '90's --
because '74 was still '60's, y'know.  

	And I want to say something that was so hard for so many
people to deal with when Shlomo and I first began to do these
things.  Some people accused us of creating a cut-rate Judaism,
y'know. 	So like, we're giving people bargains. And then they
said, but these bargains aren't for real, because what you're
getting isn't the real thing.
	Because the attitude very much was:  First you gotta pay your
dues in observance, and in learning, and only then can you have a
right to have access to spirituality, to G_d, to ways of prayer.
 
	I go back even a little earlier than that, to the year 1949,
and it's Yud-Tes(?) Kislev; and Shlomo and I are in New York, in
Lubavitch.  The late [Lubavitcher] Rebbe [R. Yosef Yitzhak of
Lubavitch, 1880--1950] was by that time not so well, and a small
number of people were admitted to the room where they had the
Fabrengen.  Shlomo and I were called in by a hosid by the name of
?Bela Haskin? -- [who said {Yiddish:} `Der Rebbe ruft euch' -- The
Rebbe is calling you.  And we were asked to come over to the
table, and we were given little -- glass of schnapps, and the
Rebbe -- wished us l'chaim, and we said l'chaim to the Rebbe, and
then he said:  `It's time that the two of you should go and visit
universities.'
	Right then and there, Yud-Tes Kislev, we made up our mind,
that Hanuka we would make our first -- "attack" -- at Brandeis.{sar1}

	I'm doing a little reminiscing; this was funny stuff.  It was
yet before Shlomo got into the guitar.  In those days Shlomo would
play the piano, and compose his melodies on the piano.  
	And -- do you remember reel-to-reel [8"] tape recorders 

{NOTE (sa): 8" tapes were used in the 1950's; it's said that some
R. SC material, particularly some from the HLP in the Collection
of Mrs. NC (Toronto), is on 8" tapes; and of course is in critical
need of peservation/transcription  --sa} 

I betcha you only remember the reel-to-reel tape recorders that
you could then take the reel and turn [over and] around, because
it had 4 tracks.  That tape-recorder had only 1 track.  And the
reels were in those days not on plastic but on paper -- thin paper
-- the first thing after the wire-recorder was that kind of a tape
recorder.  And I had a box ?a Shur? tape recorder, on which I had
recorded -- oh, a couple of hours of Chabad niggunim, that I
played on a Hammond organ -- you remember the Hammond organ -- {R.
Zalman evokes same:  Wrrrrrangow} -- so -- I had an accordian
there, and we had taken literature, and I had gathered together
from the shuls in New Bedford and Fall River  {sar2}
all the spare tfillin that were there and fixed them up.  And
there we come in the middle of Chanuka to the Brandeis campus,
where in the cafeteria they're playing some music and people are
dancing there, and there's a strobe-light going -- no, that's too
early, wasn't a strobe light; {sar3} the light was off -- but
there was a guy with a spot-light there, who was shining at
different couples {sa1} -- that's what happened.  So -- y'know I'm
getting a little confused with the times -- so we come in with our
material -- the pack-elech [pron. 'peckele(ch)'] and everything
else -- the tfillin and the tape recorder and the accordian and so
on -- and it's almost as if the juke-box stopped for a moment --
because who are those people -- they hit us with that search-light

{NOTE:  (sa):  It was merely a theatre spot-light.  But to R.
Zalman, who had been imprisoned in a camp in Vichy France [as he
has written], it would have been been reminiscent of a prison-camp
search-light. }               

in the face -- y'know {sa2} and we just set up our wares on one of
the cafeteria tables. And Shlomo begins to talk and tell stories. 
There's one guy saying to me:  `Sounds what he's saying's like
Hindu mysticism.'  So I say, `C'mere'.  So Shloimo is in this
corner telling stories, and I'm in the other corner talking about
the Upanishads, and I say, {HEB.  ??va_yetzira??}  

	And so it happened we set up shop at that time; and it's been
going like this for a long long time. 

	So there are the stories that are being told, and there are
the people who want to sort of put the world together and have a 
unified (y'know) system of reality 

{Note: R. Zalman probably here has in mind the hoped-for Unified
Field Theory, which Einstein had hoped to conceive and formulate,
which would entail the laws of both electromagnetics and
gravitation. -- sa}                       

to be able to fit their tora [or: ?Torah?] and their science, and
their tora and their Sufi, and their tora and their Hindu -- you
know, to all make it fit, to make it ?sit?.  

So what Shlomo and I did -- we wanted people to have first-hand
experience.  And the sense that we had is -- 'get to know' --
Shlomo at that time had a group, that was called 'Taste and see
that G_d is good' -- there was an abbreviation of that, T-A-S or
something like this, that's how it went -- but it was 'Taste andsee that G_d is good' -- taken from the
sentence that said {HEB.: ta'amu...ki tov ''...ahrei ha gever ...}
-- it's taken from the tehillim [Book of Psalms] -- the notion was
of course, that -- taken as Reb Nachman points out:  He says: `You
cannot begin to talk to people about G_d unless you've given them
first a taste how G_d is good.'

	I want to jump a little bit fast-forward, because it belongs
in this point now.  So it's an Edit-ing job.

	Not too far from here, across the Street, a little bit
farther down, is the Pauli Ballroom [of the University of
California, Berkeley {sa3}] 

	Who was here at that time at the Pauli ballroom when we did
`Torah and Dharma' 

[evidently the title of a colloquium, held at U.C. Berkeley, in
the Pauli Ballroom, in which  R. Zalman participated -- sa ]  

-- let me see some hands up.  All right.  That was an early
generation, y'know.  That was an amazing time.   We're doing
'Torah and Dharma' inside, and outside there's a [Jewish]
fundamentalist standing there with a poster, saying `Torah VERSUS
Dharma!'. 

{Coment (sa):  Wouldn't it better be, 'Torah versus kharma'?}

	And I tell you, this whole notion 'Torah AND ' y'know, has
remained very very powerful.                                   

	There in the afternoon -- the morning was an amazing morning
--  Pir Vilayat and so on -- the afternoon we're sitting down, and
we have a panel.  And the only one on the panel who was not Jewish
was Moinadin Jablonski {sar4}.

The Sikh [probably 3HO Sikhs, under Yogi Bhajan] was Jewish, and
the Zen person was Jewish -- remember {san2}
-- and all of us -- {Comment from audience; R. Zalman responds,
'that's right -- you did'} -- and how amazing that was to see the
lineup -- of all these people.

	Shlomo couldn't make it at that time.  So he -- I had caught
him in my car -- where I had a tape recorder -- and I asked him,
Shloimele:  You can't make it, but I want to play a message.

{R. ZALMAN'S RETELLING OF R. SC's TEACHING FROM THE IZBITZER:  WHYCOHENIM CANNOT BURY THE DEAD, EXCEPT FOR IMMEDIATE RELATIVES}

	So Shlomo began as follows:  "The Isbitzer says, that:  Why
is it that the Cohen is not permitted to defile himself to the
dead.  That a cohen is not permitted to touch a dead body.  The
reason for that is because it is written {HEB. .... dat} -- the
lips of a Cohen guard knowlege, guard wisdom.  And Torah, you are
to ask of the Cohen.  So the Cohen is supposed to be a teacher of
Torah.  If you are a teacher of Torah, you have to love G_d -- you
can't be angry at G_d .  But -- how can you not be angry at G_d,
when you touch someone, who is a member of your family, who has
lived, and now is lying dead before you.  Y'know.  The anger that
we feel at such momemnts:  Why did you have to make it in such a
way, G_d, that people have to die.  [I would guess (on the basis
in part of intonation) that the preceeding sentence is R. Zalman's
comment on R. Shlomo's teaching of the Izbitzer tora. --sa]
	And when you get angry with G_d, the Message, the teaching
that you give about G_d, is contaminated by your anger.  And so it
is very difficult to learn from a teacher who is angry at G_d. 

	I see a guitar coming -- does it mean Reb Shloime is here.
{Someone replies, affirmatively :}  Good, good.

{R. Zalman continues his teaching of R. Shlomo's teaching of the
Izbitzer teaching.  Presumably R. Shlomo took some time to enter
the discussion-hall, since he would always make himself available
to greet each person individually, in depth, and to listen to any
particular concerns they had; that's why he was almost always
late. } 

	All right:
	So -- when the Holocaust came -- now I need you to tune back
in:  Remember:  An angry person cannot teach you how to love G_d. 
Can only teach you how angry they are at G_d.  
	So he [R. Zalman is recalling R. Shlomo,s teaching,  in that
tape prepared for the U.C. Berkeley colloquium, commenting on the
Izbitzer's commentary on why a Cohen cannot touch a dead body ]
said:  When the Holocaust came, we all became tameh ?and? ?matim?[or?: tameh b_matim?] [dead?], we all became contaminated withdeath.  And all the  teachers were trying to teach us aboutYiddishkeit and about G_d, and they couldn't get the anger out oftheir guts -- they were  teaching with anger.  
	So what did G_d do out of great compassion, for this new
generation that needs to find out about G_d -- G_d sent teachers,
who at this point had no reason to be angry with G_d. {sa5}
	And so the swamis came, and the Zen people came, and from
them we learned about G_d, in the ways that weren't angry.
	Y'know.

	I tell you, I still feel deep feeling and emotion, when I go
back over what he was saying at that time.   The permission-
giving.  To be able to say, Taste and see how G_d is good.  {C200
-- about 13.5 minutes from start of Tape, Side A} --Get in touch
with that.  Once you know that, we can go from there.

	And so here's where I'm coming in with a shtickle commercial.
The commercial is about the school that you're about to create
here on the West Coast.   [apparently not yet manifested -- sa.]
	IF {emphasized} you never had a sample of how good it is tobe a Jew, AND
[if] I would say, `you have to come and learn Torah first, before
you're entitled to dance, and to rejoice, and to daven'; [THEN]
you say: 'No:  you gotta give me a sample first.'.  
	You've had the sample.  So it is now really the time to go
ahead and say:  `AND -- now let me REALLY appreciate.  Let me
really learn how to do it.'
	And I want to say:  You have a unique opportunity here:   
for years I've dreamt of the possibility of what I called a
'break-the-sefer-barrier--institute' -- y'know -- because for many
people, when they look at a Hebrew book -- and let's say I'm gonna
unpack a book, and teach someone the Torah about Pesach -- and
what's gonna happen -- If I were to show you the book raw -- all
the wonderful teaching that Shlomo has given to you -- if you were
to see the book raw -- or even in literal translation -- you would
have no access to it -- y'know what I mean --  {sae1}

And  -- it's time to learn how to get into this material.  And so
one of the ways in which I believe we can do that would be to
develop a library of CD-ROMs 

{Comment (sa):  R. ZS said this in 3/94.  In 9/94 I upgraded my
hardware to an Advanced Technology system (colloquially known as
an AT, or 286), with a 20 Mb hard-disc.  One would like to know
what sort of system R. ZS envisages now, 4 years later.} 

in interactive ways, that you could put in, on your computer, now
that everybody has also Sound -- along with that.  So that we
would be able to learn to read -- could you imagine, most people
are hooked on one font of Hebrew, as it's in the Siddur.  Could
you imagine on a MAC[intosh computer] you know, you go over -- or
in [Microsoft] Windows [R. ZS would then have had in mind, Windows
3.x] you put over -- wipe over the font, and then you hit, Rashi -
- 

[Note (sa): Ok, I'm looking at Word-for-Windows 3.x, ver. 6.0,1993-1994, Hebrew edition (1DC (Aleph-Echad/Dalet-Echad)distributors); it has a variety of fonts, but not including Rashi -- which I gather is a variant alphabet, not simply a variantfont]

and then you see the Sh'ma Yisrael in Rashi letters -- and then
you see it in another font, and then you see it in another font --
and then you see it in a font that doesn't have any nekudot 

[Note (sa): as far as I know, Accent includes nekudot; almost allIsrael word-processing programs don't; that includes Word-forWindows, as far as I know ]  
                                   
and you read it in that -- do you understand what I'm saying --it's in this way that you begin to
learn and acquire for yourself the knowlege that makes you have
direct access.  If somebody then later on says:  But ?al peh din?,
according to the [Rabinic] law, it's this way or that way, you
say:  How nice, would you show me where.  You understand? --
people have pulled rank on you, on us, by saying that there is the
only interpretation that counts --

	Here we have with us, Reb Gershon Winkler, G_d bless him and
give him strength and years and health:  One of the things he
wants to do yet is produce a [halachic] work in which the minority
opinions are recorded of people from the Talmud,  {san4}
so that we could see, maybe there ARE some people in our tradition
who said something that we feel that now is a lot more appropriate
than the way in which the people have taken a majority opinon in
the past.

	Look, all this is a possibilty. 
	So, we are now talking about a school here on the West Coast
-- a yeshiva, a free Yehiva -- remember when there were Free
Universities [in the late 1960's] -- a free Yeshiva, a yeshiva in
which people could come, just because they're hungry for knowlege
-- and then that they would get the tools -- never mind the end
result -- there ARE some wonderful people who are doing wonderful
work, like Aish HaTorah, etcetera etcetera, [sic, R. ZS simply
says: 'etcetera, etcetera'] -- but they don't give you the tools. 
What they do is, they tell you how to think in the end  -- they
give you the end-product.  
	Well, I think it's time that we do like what we did before. 
We gave you the empirical experience.  And know we want to give
you the tools, so that you can grow in Yiddishkeit, 

{Comment (sa):  That's rather a dazzling remark.  {sa6}

and that you can produce in your generation, the kinds of people
that will not be, in the next generation.   
	Shlomo and I are sort of the last Mohicans , y'know.  

[REFERENCE is to James Fennimore Cooper, 'The Last of the
Mohicans'. Comment (sa):  Having wiped out Indian culture, thegoyim in 19th century USA sentimentalized them. ]

We saw Yiddishkeit before the Second World War, and we knew some
people.  Reb Shloime knew the brother of the Kopitchninitser
Rebbe, Reb Moshe-le.  This Reb Moishe-le was an amazing person; he
could have been an hasidic Rebbe himself.   And turned to be
a Bratslav hasid.  And the deep deep wonderful things that he
[Shlomo Carlebach, as a youth] got from that person.  Y'know.

	The people who we still remember, or those whom we met in
Israel, like Reb Gedalya Koenig, with whom we interacted and
learned and studied -- that generation is going. 

	I want to tell it to you on the outside of Yiddishkeit, so
you see it a little bit better.

---------------------
The following passage occurs in transcription on Website, with
some edits, made with input from R. ZS.  I present the editted
version: 
[N.B.:  I find no significant in that text from the verbatim
original. ]
That Website is:  http://www.rasheit.org


Reb Zalman Among the Sufis

               Transcribed by Reuven Goldfarb
               with the assistance of Eliyahu (Khaled)
               McLean

          Excerpt from an audio tape of the Farbrengen with
          Rabbis Zalman Schachter-Shalomi and Shlomo Carlebach,
          Z'Tz'L, at the Hillel Foundation, Berkeley, California,
          co-sponsored by The Aquarian Minyan, March 19, 1994.
          Rabbi Schachter-Shalomi is speaking.

          -----

          Used to be, when I would go to Israel, I would run and ,
          go up to Nablus, and there, outside of Nablus, is a
          place called Balata. Balata was one of those "refugee
          camps." 
[verbatim: R. ZS says: 'quote, refugee campes'] 

In Balata there lived Sidi Hassan, Murshid Hassan. {APPENDIX II}

          I don't know how many of you were there that Yom Kippur
          afternoon--can I see some hands up?--when we did zikr
          with Murshid Hassan. Just as we were praying about
          going into the sanctuary with the High Priest, he came
          and led a zikr with us, and we got to as close as one
          can get to that, at that time.

          Now, he passed on. Hardly any Sufis around--only the
          hard-rock fundamentalists are around, and it's very
          hard to have dialogue with them. You see, I wish 
{'wish' emphasized on tape} that
          we would have our counterparts among Palestinians so
          that we would be able to do -- like we did at the time
in Hevron, years ago, when we went to Hevron and there
          found the grave of Shibli, one of the Sufi saints. And
          there was an old Sheikh there, a blind Sheikh, to whom
          we came, and he asked, -- when I came and sat in front
of him -- he sat there telling his beads --, and then turned
          to me--he had felt that I was there--and asked me
          whether I knew Nur and Mariam. I said, "Aiwa." Yes.
{sa1g}

        

"What do you want?"

          I said, "I want to say zikr with you."

          And he said, "Then come, on Thursday at 4 o'clock."

          We came 
[verbatim: 'come'] back, a whole group of us, on Thursday at 4
          o'clock to that little shtiebele, the Zawiyah. And
          there--Abdul Latif was his name--sat on the side. And
          the Qadi had come, you know, one of the people from the
          mosque there. He had this red fez with a white thing
          around [it], and he wanted to find out whether it's
          kosher for us to say zikr. We are trying to get to talk
          to each other, but there isn't a translator there. The
          young Arabs didn't want to admit that they knew Hebrew,
          so I couldn't give it over to them in Hebrew to
          translate into Arabic . So they brought the public
          health official, a doctor, to translate.

          He came in, and he hadn't said his afternoon prayers.
          So he began, "Allahuakbar, Allahu akbar," and, standing
          at his side, I said the prayers along with him. He
          finished his prayers, and then comes the hearing. And
          at the hearing, they say, "What do you want?"

          I said, "I'm here to say zikr with you."

          "Why don't you go with your own people?"

          I said, "I davvened this morning with my own people."

          "So why do you want to say zikr with us?"

          I said, "Because when I'm outside of the Holy Land, I
          find my Ikhwan, my brethren--Sufi brethren--to say zikr
          with them there, and to be in the Holy Land, and not to
          have a chance to say zikr, with you, is sad. I'd like
          to be able to say zikr with you."

          "Are you a Muslim?"

          I say, "La. Ana Mu'min." I'm a believer. I'm not a
          Muslim, I'm a believer.

          And they ask, "What do you believe in?"

          And I say, "Ash-hadu." I bear witness. "La illaha ill
          Allah al-ahad." There is no G-d but G-d, and that G-d
          is one.

          Okay. Not too bad.

          "So, [verbatim: 'So' may be R. ZS's interjection]  doyou observe the Shariya?" The Shulchan Aruch, you know? Do youknow Shulchan Aruch?

          The word 

[R. ZS uses the term 'word' in the European
sense, (Cf. Fr. 'mot', Gr. 'wort') meaning, phrase, saying, [or,
as here,concept-of ] ] 

"Shuchan Aruch," "a prepared table," is 
          also found in the Qur'an, where there is a Sura that's
          called "Ma'ida," which means "the prepared table," and
          in that Sura is written what Muslims may and may not
          eat. Do you hear that? There's a Sura called Shulchan
          Aruch in the Qur'an!

          So they ask me, do I observe the Shariya. I say,
          "Aiwa." Yes, I do.

          "What level of Shariya do you observe?"

          I say, "I observe the Shariya of the bani Yitzhak [and]
          the bani Yakub."

          So he says to me, "Then why not follow the Shariya of
          Islam?"

          I say, "Because it is not fitting, it isn't 'Adab,'
          it's not fitting for a son to go in paths different
          than his father. So I come from the bani Yitzhak and
          bani Yakub and not from the bani Ismail, and so I have
          to follow the Shariya of my parents."

          "What about Tariqat?"

          So we were talking about the higher levels of the Sufi.
          I said, "With that, I'm with you at one."

          Then somebody gives a kick on the side and says, "Ask
          him! Ask him! What about rasuliyat?" What has he got to
          say about Muhammed? Ah, they got me, ah!

          So I say, "Ash-hadu." I bear witness. "La illaha il
          Allah, wa Muhammed rasul Allah." There is no G-d but
          Allah. Muhammed is his messenger.

          So they say to me, "Then you're a Muslim!"

          And I say, "La. Ani Yahud." No, I'm a Jew.

          "Then how could you say, how could you say such a
          thing?"

          So I said, "Allow me to go back with you in your
          history. There was Ismail, the son of Ibrahim
          ha-lililai, Abraham the friend of G-d. Ismail--his
          children--Ismail still had the Tawhid--the knowledge of
          the oneness of G-d, but his children fell into the dark
          ages, into the jahiliya, into the unknowing [tape: 'non-
knowing']. And so,
          they had lost their way to the oneness of G-d. So, Ya
          rahim, Ya rahman, the merciful, the compassionate, sent
          out a messenger to the children of Ismail to bring them
          back to Tawhid--to the oneness . I believe that he was
          a true messenger."

          The Imam said, "I don't want to talk anymore. I want to
          say zikr with this man!"

          And they brought in the drums, and we start to say
          zikr.

          Another time, in Hevron--and I want to talk about that
          because it hurts so much, you know; another time, in
          Hevron, there was a group of people that went on a
          pilgrimage with us. And we came to the tomb, and I said
          to the [tape: 'our'] people, "Wait a little bit." And I
went in to the Sheikh of the tomb. He has a little office there.
          And I said to him, "May I speak to you for a moment?"
          He speaks a very good English.

          "Yes. What can I do for you?"

          I said, "I've come to ask your permission to do our
          pilgrimage here."

          He said, with a bitter heart, he said, "You need my
          permission?"--pointing to the guys with the Uzis
          outside.

          And I said, "You, and your family, and your ancestors,
          have been the keepers of this sacred tomb for all these
          years, and it isn't fitting that I should ignore that."

          He got up from behind his desk and gave me a hug, and a
          kiss on both sides of the cheek, and then took me and
          the group around Machpelah. What a difference there is
          in the approach! How important it is not to forget
          that.

          --Transcribed by Reuven Goldfarb with the assistance of
          Eliyahu (Khaled) McLean

          Reb Zalman Schachter Shalomi || Talebearer's Directory
          || VIRTUAL YESHIVA home page

--------------------------------------  ]

{N.B.:  I find practically no divergence between transcribed text
and verbatim text.  The posted transcriptino continues, from
another source, with a story of R. Shlomo hearing from a native
American confirmation of the Talmudic teaching that for a shofar,
ram's horn is better than cow's horn. }

{Resume transcription from tape:  {C454}

	The story about Shlomo that touches we so much was the time
when he was invited to sing at a prison.  And out came all the
Jewish women prisoners. And he said, are these all the prisoners
who are here.  And they said:  Yes, but it's [ie, there are] someArabs, they
don't want to come.   And Shlomo went inside, he said:  I can't --I can't perform, I can't sing, if they don't come.  Let me invite
them myself.  And he went to invite them.  Comes to one of the
cells, there's a woman sitting on the floor, sort of beating her
head and crying.  He asks:  `What's going on.'  Y'know.   And theytell him that her son was killed.   So Shlomo took off his shoes,and sat  down outside of her cell.  _____  with her; grieving.  Awoman, Khalida, was translating for him, to her.  She was there inthat  prison because of a bomb that she had planted.  So it was --you	know, high-security prison.

{Comment (sa):  Presumably simply the Tirza Women's prison.  }

Well, after a while they all came to the big hall, and they were
singing with Shlomo, and dancing with him, and he was explaining atora on: {HEB: ?L'man lo nevo sh'lo nikalem?}  He says:  All of us-- if every one of us -- if everything about us were known,wouldn't we also be behind bars -- 
	And beginning with that, he finally got them to sing and to
dance, including the wardens, now dancing with the Arab women.

	Can you see this:  So it's a difference in approach, do you
understand.  It's like, how you go about doing this.  And this is 
why I feel that the Yeshivat Hochmat haLev 

[which was the name R. Joel Glick used for his Yeshiva in the Rovaca. 1982-1983 ] 
is so
important, that you're about to build here.  Because you're not
only gonna learn how to learn books, you're gonna learn how to
learn what to do with what the stuff is that comes out of the
books.  We now need yeshivas that are not going to be hardball
yeshivas.  We need yeshivas that will open hearts.  And this is
what the word 'Chochmat haLev' stands for; it's the wisdom of the
heart. 

	Reb Beri -- Reb Ben-Zion Shoresh -- today had this wonderful
insight:  You know, Torah is being born in Berkeley.  Every day;
it's not only at Sinai that it happened.  Today at the minyan, it
came to him, that the way to expand consciousness is to use the
heart as the place for our intellect.  Y'know, that's what we've
been talking about here before.

	In those days that we were here, 20 years ago, I remember  I
taught a melody: let me see if you still can remember it.   It was
on the words of Shir haShirim.

	{R. ZS sings his niggun, with words.  More nearly a
recitative of an extended passage from Shir HaShirim, than a
niggun in the manner of R. Shlomo -- seems to use a longer phrase,
and longer structure.}   
 
R. ZS: 
It won't stick by one singing, y'know:  a niggun like this, you
have to sing about for 20 minutes, over and over again, get the
words right, and so on.  And you'll do the {in response toquestion from the audience: pardon-- }  -- it's on one
of the tapes, yes, yes.  
	What I want to say is:  Is Avraham Davis available? 
                                   
[Apparently someone says that R. Shlomo has arrived ]
"Oh. Good. So let's get up and greet him"               
{Singing:  Aveinu Shalom aleichem ; 
{C600}
and then L'cha Dodi:  boi b'shalom ...}
and David, Melech Yisrael; with variant, Shlomo Melech Yisrael --

R. ZS:  Now while you're standing:  Those of you who were here 20years ago have a right to say HaShekianu.  And the rest of you canpiggy-back on us:  Shlomo -- ready 
{R. SC: } Yeah.
{R. ZS recites HaShekianu}.  {Response: Amen.}
R. ZS: Amen.  Now settle down. 

R. ZS:  As I was talking to you before about the Yeshiva, Hochamat
HaLev, I want you to understand, that the Rabbenu shel Olam takes
and implants an irritation in the hearts of people, the same way
as G_d does from time to time in an oyster. Takes an irritation,
and out comes a pearl.  That irritation has been nudging in the
heart of Avraham for a long time, to make available to people a
new way of learning, of taking it in, of realizing -- so it isn't
only for the head that the learning happens.  So Yeshivas Chochmat
HaLev.  

{Announcement by Avraham about a new Yeshiva, Chochmat haLev.}
{C700}

R. Shlomo:  So what's been going on.
R. ZS:  So I told them, a little bit about what we were  doing.
So now is the time, according to the maestro here, that Reb Rubin
was saying, that we have to talk to each other.  [Ie, a scheduled
dialogue between R. ZS and R. SC] So, as I was telling you,
bringing you up to date -- you were saying, did you tell themabout -- so go ahead.  

R. SC:  
___ this mic -- can you make it you louder. ?Chevre?, my voice
isn't so loud.  Hello. 

Ok, good shabbos, good yomtov, good woch -- good shabbos -- gut
voch -- gut Hodesh -- 

First of all, you know, it's so beautiful to be here again. 
Really, it's unbelieveable. 
	I'm just reminding Zalman -- like, Zalman told me that he was
sharing with you like, the beginning of our humble career. 
	We're coming to Brandeis University -- did you tell them that
the Director of Brandeis said to you that he'll arrest us  next
time if we come -- No [ie, no, R. ZS apparently indicates that he
did not tell that part]                          
	Listen to me, if he would not -- told us he'll arrest us,
most ?certainly? [or: ?probably?] wouldn't have gone there twice. 
But - Ah, he wants to arrest us, that means we're doing so much
good.  Time to go, right.             
	You know, if you ever want to do something, and nobody's
against it, don't bother doing it. 
	Anyway, I don't know the way Zalman told it to you; but the
way I remember:
	Ok, we are walking in there, and there's this Hanuka dance. 
Because, what is hanuaka:  let me tell you:  Hanuka is latkes, and
having fun -- that's all there is to hanuaka. (Oh, you have
anything more to say -- no. ) {I'm not sure if this is a
rhetorical flourish within  R. SC's teaching, or was a remark to
someone in the audience; I think the former.  }  Brandeis
University, right, and what are they telling their students,
what's hanuka:  If you don't eat latkes, you're not Jewish --
right -- but -- that's all there is to it, latkes and having fun.{san1}

We're coming in there -- {R. Shlomo makes a sound like a small,
well-bred whale breaking water on a quiet day} -- has to do with
hanuka like me and ?stei and kaichik's? mother-in-law. 
	So Zalman and I, the -- like -- we become great generals, wedivide this big dining room.  Zalman says, I take left; I takeright. 

	Ok, I want you to know, was really like -- took a lot of
kishkes out of us, because now -- when let's say we were a little
bit professional, right -- but then we were just like beginning.
	And suddenly, slowly-slowly, the whole dancing stopped.  Half
of the chevre was sitting by Zalman's table, Zalman was talking to
them,  on the other hand was talking to us, because those young
people were really hungry, ?they didn't know? [or: ?really wantedto know? ] what hanuka's really all about  ---  
	And -- was going on for a long time.  Finally, was tine for
the dining room to close, and -- we're just about to leave.  And
there was this young pre-med student, who took a liking to us. 
Actually more to Zalman.  So, if you remember, in BrandeisUniversity, from the dining room down to the parking lot, is about2000 steps. 

{Comment (sa):  Ok, so I guess this lecture at Brandeis was maybe 
in the Castle, at Cholmondeley's (pronounced, 'Chumley's').}

  It  was absolutely ice -- so he says to us:  Aren't you afraid
to go down, it's ice.   So Zalman told him this unbelieveable
?Permishelana? story -- {short pause} -- 

{THIS PAUSE IS FROM AN OVERLAP IN COPYING THE ORIGINAL TAPE ONTO
THE MASTER, WITH OVERLAP.}
{Side A, C834, about 44 minutes from start}
The following portion also occurs at the start of Side B {C000}

The Permishelaner story is a story which we heard from the Old
Lubavitcher Rebbe.  That the heilige Permishelaner -- this is
about, approximately 200 years ago, the heilige Permishelaner
would go every midnight to immerse himself in the mikveh.  But the
mikveh was not just as simple as it sounds.  It was a river, and
in order to go down to the river, you had to go down a very steep
hill {Note (sa):  presumably, the river-bank}. 
	Ok, maybe you make it down.  But -- it's ice, how do you make
it up.  
	He made it down, he made it up.  So -- so there was some so-
called intellectuals, you know -- who have everything in their
head and nothing -- in their heart -- and they said, this is
crazy, we heard this Rabbi -- it's stupid -- just have the
courage; go down and go up.  
	The whole city comes, and they put their foot, just on the
hill to go down, and they're just rolling down, and really injure
themselves. 
	The next shabos, the hasidim say to Reb Meir-el:  How do you
really do it.                  

[REFERENCE:  I guess this is:  R. Meir of Premyshlan, whose
students included:  Rabbi Tzvi Hirsh Friedman of Liska (1798-
1874), and Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam of Shinva ("the
Shinaver Rebbe") (1815-1899)/ ] 

	This is a good line to remember forever.  I'll tell you first
in Yiddish.  He says:  {Yiddish: Apparently a proverb: ??Ob  manhalt zuhumpt?? in oben, fallt man nicht verubt in neben?? }
If you hold onto above, you don't fall below.       
	If you hold onto above  -- you don't fall below.

	So Zalman told him the story.  Then we went down.  Obviously
we were holding on to above. 
	The next time we come -- this boy is fire.   Fire, fire,
fire.  So we asked him, what happened.  So he says:  Do you know,
I went down:  but I rolled down -- couldn't make it.  And when I
got down there, completely broken and bruised all over, I
realized, that I'm not holding on to above. 
	So I want you to know something, friends:  Have you ever been
on the subway in New York -- that's the best I can tell you, what
it means to hold on.  You gotta hold on.
	But now I want to share with you one more thing. Just ---
saying a little tora-le in honor of my holy Rebbe, Zalman.
	You know, when I go to the synagogue, when I go to learn,
when I op {TAPE CUT OFF IN MID-WORD}
{END TAPE SIDE A {C916} -- about 46 minutes

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