on various topics related to front row play..from the coaches discussion group
I know enough to be teaching the basics, and we now have the essential rugby equipment, a decent scrum machine, but I would like to be able to advise a couple of very promising young players how they can learn more.I know some of the essentials, basic body position,the mechanics of a good strike from the hooker, and over the years I'vem heard suggestions and advice for other things, like that the tighthead prop wants to channel the weight through his right shoulder, but I wondered ifanyone else had useful source for such information?
I know in lots of countries this stuff gets passed on through an almost apprentice type system, both from advice within your own club, and also having people do things to you which you subsequently file away to try on otherpeople, but out here in the US that really isn't such an option
many of the club players around here are technically inept, so clearly they don't know that much themselves, let alone have the experience to know what and how to pass things along. I'm not just talking about ways to screw your opponent into the ground, I would like to have a more consistent and reliable platform, and with lots of technical aspects causing minor roblems it is the cohesive whole that suffers and things like low scrummaging basically go out of the window, but more importantly with all that weight and pressure I want to minimise the chances of players getting injuries.
Perhaps the best way is by repetition on aScrummage-machine - if you have one. Using this, you can vary the settings and determine what the best positions are. There isn't really a substitute for'live' experimentation, so if you can get a couple of full scrums together, test your theories on feet.binding and see what makes each set of Front-Rows comfortable/uncomfortable. The British Lions experimented thisway in South Africa and appear to have overcome some fairly awesomepacks.
* I seem to recall some research from the USA (sorry - can'tremember the source) suggesting that straight-legs in the Front-Row would provide considerably more pressure on the opposing scrum than bent leg scrummaging (where back and upper body strength comes through) There are many ways toteach a tight head the tricks of the trade. But, the tight head will never be an effective player until he/she is technically proficient.
A tight head shouldn'thave to utilise any of the dirty tricks unless his opposing loose head is playing dirty (and only then if the referee doesn't catch it!).
Knowing how his own positioning affects the hooker's play and understanding how the positioning of his 2nd row and flanker affect him are very important to becoming a proficient front row participant.Personally, I like my second row to bind on to the hem of the leg of my shorts. I find that this does not adversely affect my center of gravity as the shirt bind does.
The shirt bind tends to pull down on my neck too much which causes my shoulders get below my butt. The hem bindpulls down on my waist, assisting to keep my center of gravity low. I am very adamant about my flanker pushing in on my hip with his free arm. I get my flankers to put their hand on my hip and push in before putting their head there. This helps keep my hip tight to my lock's head
AND, once the flanker begins to concentrate on it, it helps to keep the flanker from unbinding too early (thus saving a penalty). I've been wondering what is the best way for aflanker to bind onto the scrum.
So far I have noticed four different methods,bind onto the jumper of the closest lock - I don't see any real advantage in this other than being bound to the scrum, bind onto the top of the shorts ofthe closest lock - maybe this transfers a bit of power to the locks push, butdoesn't pull the lock out of the scrum like the afore mentioned method, bindonto the furtherest lock - this seems to pull the locks tighter together, more weight onto the hooker (IMO, bad), takes the push off the props, makes it harder for the flankers to push the props hips in, bind like a lock onto the prop - I think I have seen David Wilson bind this way, I expect it allows the flanker to add more push to scrum, doesn't interfere with the lock so they can focus their push on the prop. Has anybody any other opinions/techniques?
On the subject of front rows, I'm interest in foot positioning of all three, most props I know reckon keep your foot flat, feet even space apart and level, and pointing straight (north-south).
Any other/better techniques? I am very adamant about my flanker pushing in on my hip with his free arm. get my flankers to put their hand on my hip and push in before putting their head there.
This helps keep my hip tight to my lock's head AND, once the flanker begins toconcentrate on it, it helps to keep the flanker fromy of your backrow to step up to make tackles behind the gain line. However I think that flankers tendency not to contribute enough to the former is often down to both a lack of technique and the fact that they don't know what a difference they could make
In some circumstances the solution you describe above will cause as many problems for the flanker as it will solve for the front row.
It's no use just strengthening the scrummage if you reduce the ability of the flankers to get away from it.The first question I would have from your description is to ask how low you actually get as a prop/front row?
My own experience has been that props who tend to scrum higher are happier with you binding your free arm on to them, but those whose technique depends on getting lower are usually less stable, not least because they are often the props who are not so large/strong. This binding might not be a problem for flankers who are playing in behind you, but in general it's not a good habit to develop as a backrow player.
The second problem that binding with your free arm creates is that as a flanker looking to break there is a tendency to turn your body in more, rather than angle the drive by having more force from the outside foot.
The effect for the scrum is the same, but the effect when you break and try to get clear, can bedramatically different (not least because if you don't come up squared up then you can't tackle as effectively to both sides, if you are turning as you stand up you are offering a side for the attacking player to step into).
A third problem with that bind is that it makes it very difficult for the flanker to adjust their height to see the ball at the number 8's feet (both your number 8 and the opposition's), since that involves getting your head lower. If you aren't in position to both see the ball AND get away quickly then you've lost the advantage that a more solid scrum should have gained.
The last thing I would say is that if your flanker is applying enough force through their arm for you to notice the difference then they simply aren't pushing hard enough with their shoulder. If they have the correct body angle, and apply the weight through their shoulder then that could be far, far better than any push on your hip from their free hand,which would be negligible in comparison.
If their drive isn't coming through their shoulder then they are basically all wrong to begin with.It also sounds like, and this might just be me misreading the description (because you say they should do it before putting their head there), your flankers aren't even bound properly into position as the scrum forms up. If that is true, they clearly don't understand their role in the initial part of the scrum, and someone needs to explain to them that all 8 forwards are important in the scrums, and that the initial contact goes a long way to establishing the later situations in any scrum so they can't just show up when it suits them and look to leave after the ball is hooked
I never specified that I want the flanker to;bind onto my hip. I merely want his free hand placed flat against my hip. I have always sewn the pockets of my shorts closed, so binding there is rather difficult (but I ref now and need those pockets).
Isnt it possible for the flanker to bind his inside arm to the lock (whichever one is preferred), drive forward with his inside shoulder AND push inward with his outside arm?Maybe this is too much coordination to ask of a back row! And I havent met a Flanker yet (myself included, years ago), that wasn't fast enough that a solid bind kept him from making a tackle behind the gain line. Finally, the most important part of the flanker's push and bind is at the engage and the 2-3 seconds after the ball is put in (with the exception of a pushover try attempt).
All I ask is that you keep the scrum tight during that period, after those seconds look around all you want.But give the front row the first 2-3 seconds of concentration.
The wonderful thing about our sport is howthe individual personalities and playing styles all have to mesh at one time or another At 5'10 and 180 lbs I played best at hook but pulled a lot of duty as TH too. Usually giving away 40+ lbs I wanted to get in and get out and not stick around to play games.
As a TH I saw my job as two things. 1. Be a stableplatform so that the 2nds could deliver their power. 2. Being a hooker playing TH it was a bad day if I couldn't take a couple of their feeds. To achieve the first I worked on a level and flat back (even a little hollow). The left thigh was vertical giving the lock the best target.
To free my right foot for the strike my left foot was directly in line with my right buttock, my hips leaning in and my weight is on the outside (left side) edge of my left foot. In that position I'm not an effective push but can deliver the power To win ball against the head my hook strikes across the tunnel to block the other hooks strike and I go for the ball. If their feed isn't straight bitch like hell. All this ain't easy and fighting off a strong LH at the same time isn't fun but taking their ball is.
And if their SH gets too close take it right outof his hands. I wasn't asking the flank to keep me in either and he got his head whacked if he grabbed my leg. Since I started playing when hooker scould swing into the tunnel I liked the props to bind across on each other,not on me. That way I could drop into the tunnel, turn my hips and get a better strike
I foundthe comments about binding on the tightheads shorts interesting. Scrummaging is above all else finding solutions to problems, the problem is working out what your opposite is trying to achieve, and the solution is coming up witha counter tactic.
How do you deal with a Tight-Head Prop who is being abit 'awkward'. In what ways could (legal) pressure be brought to bear onhim/her so that their play is disrupted and you get to play the game. ???presuming the tight headisn't just better, and he is either putting pressure on either inside on the hooker, or outside on the loose head (the previous being propper for defensive scrums, and the latter for offensive) the counter would be for the loose head to tighten his bind on the hooker and try and apply pressure with his head on the sternum of the tight head. another counter would be to focus pressure from both hooker and tight head on the sternum of the tight head.. this can pop up the scrum, and doesn't allow for a hook offensivly, but can discourage future pressure from the tight head.
i wouldn't try either of these on an offensive scrum, unless the tight head is effectivly preventing you from getting the ball. these are sort of general ideas,if you would like to be more specific, i'd be happy to try to be of more help.
The only 4 ways a loose head can over come a good tight head is1st way to buryyour head in the middle of the chest that every time pressure is put on youyour head digs into the chest. 2nd way is to get a better hit then the tighthead.
3rd way is to be stronger 4th way is to hope the tight head is not me because you'll be in for a long day
A trick I was taughtyears ago by a NSW Country hooker was that when a loose head (LH)prop was trying to pop/put pressure on the tight head prop (TH), the TH rolls his/her right shoulder down, effectively blocking the LH from doing anything but looking at the ground.
The one tournament I played TH (I am usually a centre) I played against a very good loosehead prop who popped me a few times before Iremembered the trick.
It worked really well and I managed to return a bit of trouble to the LH. Unfortunately my neck was mighty sore at the end of the day and I then understood why popping wasbanned ;-). What I would like to know, however, is what can be done to counter the rolling of the shoulder??
It is an excellent trick, but one that Iwould like to know how to defend against when I am eventually moved into prop in another few years (and 20 odd kilos ;-) ).
what can be done to counter the rolling of the shoulder?? two easy ways to counter, 1st would be to come together harder than most reff's allow, and fight to get your head into the sternum of the tighthead.first in generally has the better chance of obtaining the stronger position.2nd way is for the loose head to go for the arm pit area of the tight head,extending the head and neck up between the chest and elbow area. at the same time, you can bind hi on the back of the tight head and can actually rest your forhead in the crux of your own elbow, so as the tight head tries to pull you lower, he is actually pulling himself away from his hooker
Well, we think of the second row being made up of four players - the two second rows and the two wing-forwards. So there's a front row and a middle four. They push for the count. We have also changed our binding with the hooker in front of the props' shoulders, which makes the scrum much squarer as he sits well forward. And we think of the scrum as having separate right and left sides, which operate independently, with each prop having his own pair of second rows.
As to coaching the binding of the #8 on the side of the scrum as opposed to the back, I instructed my players to do this as a way to get the ball out quickly.
As a smaller scrum, the ability to get the ball out quickly was necessary to prevent the scrum from getting pushed around and pushed off of their own put ins.
The down side of this is that the ball is often delivered with much less control.
Well practiced, this can be a powerful tool, the opposing scrum is pushing when the ball is long gone, and so are the loose forwards.
The scrum half question is very interesting.
At the clinic it was mentioned that by putting the scrum half in a position to pressure the FH.
However a quick review of the 1997-1998 laws (Law 24 B (3)) indicates the SH must stay on the same side of the scrum as his opposition and must not ;move away from the scrum.
This does mean that the SH is in great position to kill any weak side attacks.
As a side note I did not see many SH's spoiled by pressure from his opposition, all it takes is a little step by the #8 In attack, I pack the #8 over whenever we strike for Channel 1 ball.
This gets the ball to the #8's feet quickly and ensures that it doesn't scoot out past the Flanker. In the old days we used to have the Flanker control it, but today he needs to be driving on the Loosehead and splayed-out to inder the opposition #9.
So, packing the #8 over is good whenever we want a quick attack off the base of the scrum or when we are the weaker pack and need to get the ball out quickly (rather than take the time to control the ball down Channel 2 while being pushed around the paddock).
Whenever we run a back row move I design it to start from #8 packed over.If we are the stronger pack, then I will pack the #8 in the orthodox position (I love that term-- learned it from Clarence Culpepper, no less), Channel 2 ball, and we are under much more control.
This is especially useful when we are deep in our end. Otherwise, packed-over is much quicker and safer ball.
In defense, I always pack the #8 over.
The right side of the defensive scrum is protected intially by the #9 and the Flanker, the left side by the Flanker and the #8.
By packing over, #8 can see any attack coming to the left and by holding onto the Flanker can feel when he breaks off.
Concurrent with this, however, is a strong initial drive by the tight five and our Flankers focusing pressure on the opposition front row.
Since their Hooker is striking for the ball, we end up driving 7 on 7 when our #8 ispacked-over. It is also possible to replace the #8 with another player, say the #9, and let the #8 stand out, but this is higher order stuff.
An option our club uses when the opposition have a large blind-side is to stand the scrum-half on the blind side, level with the No.8's feet. This helps nullify any blind-side moves by the opposing back row. The other option when the No.8 picks up and goes down the blind side is for our SH to tail his opposite number around the scrum