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Kaiser Metzler I
Bored Dude
Posts: 258
(11/8/01 1:49:12 am)
209.86.0.107
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Re: Vote The Void!
Show me a successful case of comunism on a national scale that has worked with out corruption, dictators, and oppresive behavior....
And don't go "oh I can't because the capitalists keep messing things up"... that's to easy...
And people are greedy.. it's instinct.. people forget we ARE animals... we still run off instict. Self preservation beinf the strongest instinct....
And I may be a capitallist.. but I would work for the betterment of human kind and all that with lil regard to how much I make.... But maybe I'm just odd....
E. Metzler "UEC", eik'mol bom'eth
"Death awaits everyone, it's just that it has less patience for some..."
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
"Unfortunitly life isn't like a math book, You can't go to the back and see the answers to the odd problems.."
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Red Liberator
Registered User
Posts: 14
(11/8/01 2:21:34 am)
4.40.63.241
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Re: Vote The Void!
Quote:
Show me a successful case of comunism on a national scale that has worked with out corruption, dictators, and oppresive behavior....
There is no national socialism. Socialism in one country is non-socialism. USSR, China, Cuba, Vietnam, no. Another reason common to these "communist" nations is the contradiction of Marx's belief that, "The Emancipation of the Workers will be carried out by the workers themselves." In all these cases, the Party fed off the support of the workers. The great Lenin himself was an aristocrat, and it was he and many intellectuals who led the proletarian revolution and refused to relinquish power back to the People after victory.
And another no, we're not born greedy & individualistic. People respond to their surroundings differently. Naturally, in a capitalist society, you have to hoard everything in fear of losing it. You're lying if you're saying humans are always selfish. When people sacrifice their own lives for their loved ones, are they caring about themselves?
To Dstryker-You may be surprised, over here we do have group project grades that are decided by our group. The members who gets how much. I've been to school in Hong Kong, New York, and Seattle, all three have had this system one time or another. And if the majority of the group are lazy people, I don't think the hard-working minority allowed themselves to be robbed like that. The least they could do is leave the group. And I haven't experienced anyone with the audacity to give themselves the higher grade when others it isn't deserved.
If we were to cut off their pay, would they suddenly stop saving lives? Those firemen are working off from their heart, not their paycheck. Yes, they need to support their family. I didn't say I'm in support of cutting off his pay. Of course, it wouldn't be as difficult in socialism, as your's [and likely your family's] basic needs are met as long as you work and contribute to the society.
Red Liberator [RLib]
Premiere of the
People's Republic of the New Soviet Empire
The People's Revolutionary Party
"In the Service of the People" ~Mao
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Kaiser Metzler I
Bored Dude
Posts: 266
(11/8/01 2:27:08 am)
209.86.0.107
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Re: Vote The Void!
AH! Now it's starting to sound like Religion class and English class combined! morality and transidentalism and materialism, and conformity... hmmmmmmmm *gets idea*
Transidentalism... vs socialism..... that would be an interesting conversation....
E. Metzler "UEC", eik'mol bom'eth
"Death awaits everyone, it's just that it has less patience for some..."
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
"Unfortunitly life isn't like a math book, You can't go to the back and see the answers to the odd problems.."
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dStryker
Registered User
Posts: 13
(11/8/01 4:08:21 am)
172.139.59.243
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Re: Vote The Void!
Capitalists are no less altruistic (and no more egoistic (note the difference of egoist and egotist)) than communists. Capitalists and communists are both people. You could say that capitalists tend towards egoism and communists towards altruism, but there's no one to say that egoism is better than altruism or vice versa. But my main point is this: a communist cannot be egoistic, since that would go against communism, he can only be altruistic. Otherwise communism becomes distorted and corrupt (it goes against communist theory, and it leads to dictatorship etc., though whether they actually started out pure in the first place cannot be known) However, a capitalist can be either egoistic, or altruistic, or both. The same applies to the capitalist and communist systems. In communism, private businesses cannot exist, since they are for the benefit (and rule) of only one person. The existence of private businesses would create the same effects as egoism in communism. But with capitalism, a communist commune can coexist in a capitalist society. In capitalism, a person is an entity. A corporation is an entiy. And a commune is an entity. Since there are millions of people and corporations (and communes, theoretically), there are countless entities. But in communism, there is only one entity, and that is the entire society itself.
The result: Capitalism is more free than communism. Also, capitalism is more diverse than communism. Theoretically, capitalism could become so free that it would destroy itself, but government acts as a moderator. In a communist society there is no government of course, but a comparison could be made to the society as a whole. The society is the government, and thus acts as the moderator.
Democracy is free and diverse, just like capitalism*. And like capitalism, democracy could become free enough that it would destroy itself. But because democracy is a form of government, and thus a government itself, it must limit itself. Since democracy and capitalism are both free and diverse, they tend to go well together. But it is because democracy* and capitalism are free and diverse that they are threats to communism, which is not free, nor is it diverse.
While a free system cannot work in a restricted system, a restricted system can work within a free system.
For example, capitalism cannot work within a communist society, but communism can work within a capitalist society.
*Democracy is free and diverse because it allows dissention (the freedom of dissention (i.e. the freedom to dissent) and the diversity of dissention (i.e. different opinions))
Quote:
Of course, it wouldn't be as difficult in socialism, as your's [and likely your family's] basic needs are met as long as you work and contribute to the society.
The problem is determining how much people should contribute. If somebody is contributing as much as possible while another barely contributes anything, that person won't see a point in contributing so much, and will contribute less. Eventually, it spreads to everyone and society doesn't grow at all. The same thing occurs with equal pay. If both of you are paid the same yet the other person doesn't work very much, why should you work so hard and yet receive the same amount of pay as he does?
Another problem would be basic needs. A person could survive on bread and water, but does he want to eat just bread and drink only water? If all the members of society eat only bread and drink only water, then thousands of foods and drinks are never going to be used, which is rather wasteful (although it is equal). But if in order to recover those wastes people consume something else, let's say bread and orange juice, won't people feel resentful that they have to drink water while others get to drink orange juice?
One other problem would be that whether artists, musicians, authors, etc. contribute anything is subjective. If they write a horrible book or a bad painting or whatever, are they still allowed to meet their basic needs? And if so, what is to prevent them from continuing to create bad works of art (remember that it is always subjective; a good book to one might be the worst book ever to another. Who would decide its quality?) And how much do they contribute? Happiness and enjoyment cannot be measured tangibly.
�After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one.� - Cato the Elder
�No Sane man will dance.� - Cicero
�Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.� - Carl Gustav Jung
Rain is a government conspiracy. |
Kaiser Metzler I
Bored Dude
Posts: 273
(11/8/01 8:17:28 pm)
165.247.215.34
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Re: Vote The Void!
Damn.... Best argument I've heard for capitalism yet.. Never thought of it that way.... Excellent my friend....
*claps*
E. Metzler "UEC", eik'mol bom'eth
"Death awaits everyone, it's just that it has less patience for some..."
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
"Unfortunitly life isn't like a math book, You can't go to the back and see the answers to the odd problems.."
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Red Liberator
Registered User
Posts: 15
(11/8/01 9:42:56 pm)
4.40.63.241
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Re: Vote The Void!
How can you say communism is not democracy? Capitalism is not democracy; ironically, the free market system itself is not FREE. In communism, the goal is to BRING democracy in all social levels, especially in the workplace. Workers are free to choose what they do and what they make. People who are contributing either mental or physical work decide this, not the idle rich who act as parasites of those laborious people.
Western bourgeois republics are not democratic. Campaigns are funded by the large corporations, as it influences them the most. In the US, representative democracy (republicanism) isn't even correct, in that popular votes are not counted. And in republicanism, the winners of the popularity contests are almost guaranteed a certain time in office. During that time, it is not mandatory for them to listen to the will of the people, but act on their own instincts.. unlike in the Parisan communes, when democratically elected officals could be recalled by the Masses.
You can't establish communism inside capitalism. They can't coexist. Communism is a world ideology, no one country has the resources to isolate and be able to sustain itself. Capitalism is also a global system, since it is heavily based on trade between countries. No country can really isolate itself from the rest of the world in a peaceful manner, so a peaceful "socialist nation" would be easy prey for the outside capitalist world. Just as capitalism is a world system, socialism will have to be a world system.
However, people with 'capitalist tendencies', they would still be accepted in socialism. Those who disagree will be treated like anyone else. If a person or group decided to start promoting a return to capitalism, or some other class-divided social form, they would be free to do so. If however, a person or group, was damaging society (beating people up, or blowing up buildings, etc.) then society will take appropriate action against them.
Socialism isn't based upon altruism. Supporting socialism involves recognizing the fact that the current system just doesn't work for most people. Socialism will be a society in which satisfying an individual's self interest is the result of satisfying everyone's needs. It is enlightened self-interest that will work for the majority.
There is no equal pay, it's "from each according to his abilities...". The matter of contribution to society again brings us back to the question of human nature. There is no scientific or any type of proof that we are incapable of being altruistic. People enjoy creating useful things. Instead of producing junk that people only buy because they can't afford quality, every worker will be able to produce quality products for themselves and others, and know that other workers will be doing the same. People will gain respect for doing jobs that others might find unpleasant, or the unpleasant jobs might be shared around. Many of the unpleasant jobs could be made more pleasant and some could be done away with.
And if people want or take too much, the world is not ready for socialism. Although I'm not saying it is impossible. The decision to advance to socialism is a decision by the world's people.
Red Liberator [RLib]
Premiere of the
People's Republic of the New Soviet Empire
The People's Revolutionary Party
"In the Service of the People" ~Mao
Edited by: Red Liberator at: 11/9/01 2:45:04 am
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dStryker
Registered User
Posts: 16
(11/9/01 6:30:49 am)
172.139.23.246
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Re: Vote The Void!
I would respond to your post but unfortunately I have to prepare for school. However, I would like to mention that a republic and representative democracy aren't exactly the same things. In a republic, officials can be recalled by the people (you can do this in the U.S., though I'm not sure about the President, who isn't even elected popularly anyway), but in a representative democracy, officials cannot be recalled (e.g. Israel).
�After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one.� - Cato the Elder
�No Sane man will dance.� - Cicero
�Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.� - Carl Gustav Jung
Rain is a government conspiracy. |
 JulianStarr
Registered User
Posts: 156
(11/9/01 10:37:04 am)
209.139.110.245
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Community Supporter
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Re: Vote The Void!
Excellent debates Gentlemen, this is what Tymaria is all about.
Julien Starr
Citizen of Tymaria
Member of the Parliament of the Republic of Lyrica
Grand Duke of the Commonwealth of Interland
Remember Alteria
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earthdafydd
Registered User
Posts: 7
(11/9/01 2:51:49 pm)
62.7.19.238
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Re: Vote The Void!
RLib, with a bit of tweaking, you could put that up on the PRP website as a Dummies Guide to Communism.
I know I'll be voting for WarVoid, anyway. So should you!
Dafydd Young
Executive, People's Democracy of Rasperia
Justice Commisar, New Soviet Empire
Socialist Alliance MP for Ynys M�n, House of Commons Sim
AIM: earthdafydd, ICQ: 119316430, YIM: louis_t_duck
[email protected]
'One could define democracy as being where people have the highest individual participation in politics. This approach, however, must be rejected as it would lead us to the bizarre conclusion that Communist countries were the most democratic because they had the highest levels of individual political participation' |
earthdafydd
Registered User
Posts: 8
(11/9/01 3:58:35 pm)
62.7.19.238
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Re: Vote The Void!
Dafydd Young
Executive, People's Democracy of Rasperia
Justice Commisar, New Soviet Empire
Socialist Alliance MP for Ynys M�n, House of Commons Sim
AIM: earthdafydd, ICQ: 119316430, YIM: louis_t_duck
[email protected]
'One could define democracy as being where people have the highest individual participation in politics. This approach, however, must be rejected as it would lead us to the bizarre conclusion that Communist countries were the most democratic because they had the highest levels of individual political participation' |
Red Liberator
Registered User
Posts: 18
(11/9/01 6:34:27 pm)
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Re: Vote The Void!
I should put it up, comrade Dafydd, one day 
Your definitions of r.democracy and republicanism, I see them switched around. The United States sometimes refers to itself as "The Republic". The American President can't be recalled by the Masses, but he/she can be IMPEACHED by the Supreme Court, which obviously does NOT consist of all eligible voters.
I'm not sure about Legislatures, can anybody tell me if and how Senators & Representatives are recalled?
The Romans were also "The Republic". I don't remember reading about their officials being recalled. Anyhow, the Republic quickly detoriated with the emergence of corrupt senators.. again proving the failure of Republicanism.
Red Liberator [RLib]
Premiere of the
People's Republic of the New Soviet Empire
The People's Revolutionary Party
"In the Service of the People" ~Mao
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Kaiser Metzler I
Bored Dude
Posts: 297
(11/9/01 8:28:00 pm)
165.247.220.85
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Re: Vote The Void!
hmmm.... Ironic what I came to realize but......
I shall put all this to rest with one word and a explanitor phrase....
word:
FIOJ
Phrase:
DD and capitalism, total equality...
E. Metzler "UEC", eik'mol bom'eth
"Death awaits everyone, it's just that it has less patience for some..."
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
"Unfortunitly life isn't like a math book, You can't go to the back and see the answers to the odd problems.."
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Red Liberator
Registered User
Posts: 24
(11/10/01 6:57:02 pm)
4.40.63.241
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Re: Vote The Void!
can someone save this thread somewhere secure? I'd like to have it up on the PRP website as a communism vs capitalism debate..
Red Liberator [RLib]
Premiere of the
People's Republic of the New Soviet Empire
The People's Revolutionary Party
"In the Service of the People" ~Mao
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Kaiser Metzler I
Bored Dude
Posts: 321
(11/11/01 1:19:00 am)
165.247.220.12
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Re: Vote The Void!
Talk to the library...
E. Metzler "UEC", eik'mol bom'eth
"Death awaits everyone, it's just that it has less patience for some..."
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity."
"Unfortunitly life isn't like a math book, You can't go to the back and see the answers to the odd problems.."
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