From:           	"Alan Cox" 
To:             	[email protected]
Subject:        	Re: The fundamental problem in fundamental churches...
Date sent:      	Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:03:31 PDT

Yes you are right! I'm sure (because of your character) you have talked to
EVERY fundamentalists in the world right? Oh, but wait, you should talk to
the missionary alliance, pentacostals, CATHOLICS (funny, you never, 
ever,ever mentioned them), SBC (did I hit you yet?).
I will tell you the reason you are shunned! It is not because you have a
"new corner on the truth" or some "great revelation!" It is because you
are 
annoying and don't get to the point!
No! I won't discuss it with you. Why? Because you and I are in agreement!
I 
don't believe the "pastor" is above his people! I believe he should be 
respected. But not above reproach! You sir, have ONE agenda, and that is
to 
argue! Why don't you ever mention the Catholic church that has probably
sent 
more people to hell than any other "religion" or "denomination?" I'll tell
you why, because you could care less about the truth. Your motive is to 
argue. That is Ms Billie William's too. If fundamentalism wasn't here (and
it always will be by the way) you nor billie would have anything to do!

A person that defends themselves has a FOOL for a client! I, sir, could 
really care less what you or ms williams think of me or fundamentalism.
Billy has nothing better to do than to go around trashing forums using
FAKE 
names (because of his cowardace way). I know you hate fundamentalism and
the 
JH forum does too. That is why I have enough character to stay away from
it. 
You and billy don't have enough character to stay off other's forums that
have banned you because of your hateful spirit. I had a
Charasmatic-Catholic 
email me last night. This person was kind and polite, but had questions. I
emailed this person back very kindly in answer to their question. My point
is, I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, YOU DO! It is evident in
your 
postings on the JH forum. What are you worried about. My position is 
very,very clear on everything. If you disagree, so!
You and billy boy are really bizarre!
So anyway, I don't think "shepards are above reproach from their sheep!"
Again, as always, FAILED to give me an example!!
By the way, I am posting this your email and my reply in its entirety on
my 
forum!

God Bless,
Alan Cox


>From: "Joseph" <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: "Alan Cox" 
>Subject: Re: The fundamental problem in fundamental churches...
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:59:07 -0400
>
>Brother Alan,
>
> > Friend, after reading your dissertation, you still have not showed an
> > example of where **I** am off on doctrine or guilty of "leadership (I
> > noticed you changed this term) worship!" I can't speak for every
> > fundamentalists. I am only responsible for ME!
>
>	I know this is distateful but in general _ALL_ Independent Fundamental
>Baptist preachers have bought in to false teachings handed down to
>them.  It is not just the Hyles'ites and Jones'ites, or
>Ruckmanites...it the _whole_ house.
>
>	Of course this phenomena is not limited to IFB's but since it is _my_
>house...I'll let the rest do their own cleaning...and, maybe some of
>this will brush off.
>
>	In the past I have tried many times to discuss these matters privately
>with people...and EVERY single time it starts to burn their feet they
>crawl in to a hole and point fingers at me.
>
>	Mike O'neal couldn't take it and didn't want the OPENNESS so he locked
>me out of his forum...of course...trying to make me think it was my
>fault....that's part of the intimidation/applied guilt heresy.
>
>	David Wilson won't even talk...but I think you know his reputation.
>
>	Like I said...it's the whole house.
>
>	A person would have to be willing to look at the bible without
>allowing pre-conceived ideas to color their thinking.  I am not talking
>about allowing false doctrine in...I am talking about allowing the
>bible to speak instead of men.
>
>
> >Actually, your dissertation sounded a lot like the SBC to me!
>
>	No one likes to admit that they might be guilty of something bad, the
>human reaction is to think of another group that's (perhaps) more
>appropriate and place them in the limelight instead.
>
>	The first thing is admitting "the possibility".
>
>
> > Because in the SBC, you have preachers
> > that get their Sunday School material and some sermon material from the
> > Convention and they are BOUND by the LEADERSHIP or CREATURES sitting
> > behind a desk somewhere. The fundamentalists have done more "thinking 
>for
> > themselves" than the Southern Baptists have ever thought of! So, does 
>the
> > "leadership worship" occur in fundamental churches? SURE it does! I 
>might
> > add it happens in the SBC AND EVERY OTHER "DENOMINATION!" This is 
>nothing
> > new, I told you this months ago!
>
>	And I admitted that it wasn't tied up by the IFB's...if you'll
>remember.
>
>	But this is my house.
>
> >But you seem to think that I have all of
> > fundamentalism in my hand! So, with that in mind, show me where *I* am 
>in
> > "error!"
>
>	Alan...you do have many if not all of the errors "in your hand".
>You, yourself, are not "Fundamentalism Incarnate" but the errors are
>there.
>
>	You have bought in to many of the false teachings which virtually
>every IFB preacher passes on to the next.
>
>	But I'll not hide in the dark....I will speak OPENLY.
>
>	Are you willing to do the same?
>
>	The first error is the false idea that "shepherds" are above reproach
>from the "sheep".
>
>	Are you willing to tackle that in the open?
>
>Agape,
>
>	Joseph  (Jn. 6:29)
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Alan L. Cox
> >
> >
> > >From: "Joseph" <[email protected]>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: "Alan Cox" 
> > >Subject: The fundamental problem in fundamental churches...
> > >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:31:49 -0400
> > >
> > >Like I said Alan...you only think you describe it better than I do.
> > >==================================================
> > >> > >Leader Worship.

>> > >.

>
> > >If a person accuses us or our friends of that the hairs stand up on the
> > >back of our neck. It's no wonder that our first reaction would be anger
> > >and alarm. Unfortunately, to ignore the possibility that we or our
> > >friends could fall prey to Satan and his devices is a dangerous and
> > >unwise thing to do. It's much better to search a matter out and realize
> > >that we've stumbled, and correct it, than to wilfully ignore the truth
> > >and stand before God ashamed and defenseless. The most unfortunate 
>thing> > >is that it goes in every day in our most fundamental churches..
>  .

>  What is
>
> > >"Leader Worship"? And, just as important, what is it not? To begin with
> > >when I speak about "Leader Worship" I am not speaking about physically
> > >bowing down before a man. It's not merely the imagination of an
> > >emotionally injured individual who is simply hitting back. It is not 
>the
> > >attempt of an individual to justify avoiding the responsibility of
> > >following rightful authority. Neither is it the angry accusation of an
> > >individual so full of himself that the good of Christianity is forsaken> > >in order to fulfil his own carnal lusts. It's not an arrogant nature.> 
> >signaling a "Holier than thou" attitude.. . I could go on and on in

>
> > >explaining all the things that "Leader Worship" isn't to preclude
> > >accusations of some evil purpose...but I won't...history has shown that
> > >they _ALWAYS_ come to those who point out internal group sins. All 
>those
> > >arguments are, are simply various shades of the same old "accuse and
> > >excuse" syndrome many of us hear on a regular basis. It's simply the
> > >attempt to avoid searching out the truth by casting doubts on the
> > >accuser's motives. And, by reason of the accuser's imagined sin the
> > >possibility of their own is excused without examination. Thankfully 
>this
> > >is the type of hidden sin that a person usually works out themselves> > >later with God. By the time a person realizes what they've been doing.> 
> >people are often discussing one of the symptoms.. . The description of

>
> > >"Leader Worship" has been an elusive one. I have used the term "subtle"
> > >because although it is out there it has been so difficult to describe. 
>Up
> > >until just recently I failed to understand why something that was so
> > >obvious to me, I found so difficult to describle to others. And> > >worse...so difficult for other to understand what I was trying to.> 
> >describe...talk about "failure to communicate"! (grin!). . Finally I

>
> > >figured out that in reality it is a transparent sin and although it's
> > >symptoms can be described, much like cold or the flu symptoms can be
> > >described...it does not lend itself well to description of it's own
> > >accord. It is a sin best described and recognized by it's symptoms. The
> > >next difficult part is that nearly all of it's symptoms are separate
> > >issues, each deserving examination in their own right. The next 
>"subtle"
> > >part is that so many of these symptoms, each deserving their individual
> > >examinations, are often accepted without question. As a result we have 
>a
> > >transparent sin camoflaged behind things which most accept without> > >question. Now I say to myself..."No wonder I've had such a hard time.> 
> >describing this rascal!".. . To make a long story short, "Leader Worship"

>
> > >is, for this argument, the laying of one's physical and spiritual
> > >efforts, as gifts, at the feet of men of authority, to follow these 
>men's
> > >own non-biblical biases, desires, doctrines, teachings, or traditions,
> > >which go _BEYOND_ their biblical authority. Often these erring biases,
> > >desires, doctrines, , teachings, or traditions are cloaked in the
> > >_APPEARANCE_ of biblical authority with "Good words and fair speeches";
> > >However under close examination they, individually, do not measure up.
> > >When men, usually good, honest, upright men, are guilty of this act, 
>even
> > >though they may not realize it, they are in fact practicing "Leader
> > >Worship". The individual symptoms need to be examined in their own 
>light
> > >and are subjects for their individual studies. Until the individual
> > >errors can be weeded out, "Leader Worship" remains hidden. Even worse,
> > >until a pattern of symptoms has been shown, "Leader Worship" remains
> > >snugly hidden behind a wall of mirages with neither the teacher nor >the.> >pupil aware of it's presense.. . Most often, though not always, 

>these are
>
> > >good men who truthfully feel that they are without guilt and have been
> > >falsely accused. Very often they get angry and refuse to accept even 
>the
> > >possibility that things which they've come to accept as sound and which
> > >are accepted in their group and/or denomination are without biblical
> > >authority. Very often they look to tradition and claim that "These 
>things
> > >are just the way we do it.", or "That's the bible way of doing it", or
> > >"The pastor chose to hold these standards..." and ignore the truth that
> > >the freedom in Christ does not include freedom to add things to 
>scripture
> > >and which have no biblical support. Very often these men are confused 
>and
> > >angry...they don't understand why anyone would accuse them of such a
> > >horrible sin. Between anger, confusion, disbelief, and shock...it's
> > >virtually impossible to reason with them, thereby making "Leader >Worship".> >extremely difficult to expose...Satan should be proud of this 
>one.. . It

>
> > >takes a tough man to search things out which may not come out in his
> > >favor and expose a sin he himself would despise. In doing so he 
>realizes
> > >that he would in turn be obligated to become a pariah, exposing this
> > >sinful practice to others within his group who are likewise, 
>unknowingly
> > >committing this sin...and perhaps suffering great personal loss and/or> > >esteem within that group...perhaps even finding themself "without the.> 
> >gate" simply for attempting to bring a hidden sin to light.. . In general

>
> > >they'll propose that there's little or no need to closely examine these
> > >individual doctrines or practices. Almost without exception they feel 
>it
> > >would be an excercise in futility to do so since they already know the
> > >answer. They wonder at the idiocy of the person that questions them and
> > >challenges them to closely examine doctrines or practices which they 
>see
> > >as so obviously sound. Sometimes they'll try to slide the discussion 
>off
> > >into other areas...picking at minors...thereby escaping the tough 
>problem
> > >at hand. When prompted to examine these doctrines or practices, they'll
> > >sometimes deliberately spend as little time as possible on them, while
> > >setting the appearance of having honestly examined them. In their haste
> > >to put this unpleasantness behind them as soon as possible, they 
>overlook
> > >points which would be beneficial to them and shed new light on the
> > >subject. Having (in their own mind) hastily debunked the 
>arguments...they
> > >fail to ever see these other important points. "Leader Worship" has >again.> >successfully remained hidden.. . Though they'll think nothing of 

>spending
>
> > >several weeks, or even months, examining doctrines such as "The Godship
> > >of Christ" or "The Trinity", or even "The Church"... (and these truly 
>are
> > >worthy of this effort) they argue that they've already spent too much
> > >time examining these particular doctrines or practices. They pass them
> > >off as settled after only a few nights of half-hearted scripture 
>tossing,
> > >and referrals to out of context and misapplied verses which they've
> > >learned by wrote and have simply accepted them as sound when in fact 
>they
> > >are not. They'll often insist that there's more important things to
> > >devote a person's efforts toward, thereby relegating this subject which
> > >threatens them as "not worth their time". Were it not for the fact that
> > >these traditions undermine freedoms and principles which are 
>fundamental
> > >to New Testament Christianity these arguments would be but "doubtful
> > >disputations" ...unfortunately however...they do undermine fundamental> > >Christian freedoms and principles. Again, "Leader Worship" remains.> 
> >hidden.. . Often not practised in determining context for themselves they

>
> > >accept out of context and misapplied verses which appear to support a
> > >favored bias, desire, doctrine, or tradition. Some of them may even be
> > >learned men and have spent many years and many dollars for
> > >education...yet they have been misled; Not totally misled...but in some
> > >areas which they have taken for granted as sound...those areas having
> > >been accepted for so long that no one questions them anymore...at least
> > >almost no one. Their fundamental doctrines are often 
>impeccable...however
> > >along with these sound doctrines comes the baggage of other unsound and
> > >damaging biases, doctrines, desires , teachings, or traditions. It is
> > >most often, but not always, in the area of tradition that Leader 
>Worship
> > >abounds...it remains hidden...with neither the teacher nor the pupil
> > >aware of it's ugly presense. Teacher to pupil, teacher to pupil, 
>teacher
> > >to pupil...and then in time...just like any story that ends up >different.> >at the end than it was at the beginning...it has become 
>corrupted.. .
> > >Lamp Lighter. . . . . . Copyright 1999, Lamp Lighter. . . . . .

>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >
> > >      Joseph          mailto: [email protected]
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________________________
> > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
>


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