SIGN543:
It's obvious reading through this forum and from my 2 years of interviews with over 100 ex-gays from all over CA and the US, that sexual orientation really doesn't change...all that changes is your action.
It's really the epitome of deception to make these desperate people believe that they can suddenly *poof* change into a heterosexual. The focus needs to be on getting these people to somehow become okay with who they are. Learning to accept the things they cannot change. They may choose to join an ex-gay ministry...and the overwhelming amount of anecdotal and clinical evidence shows that they will continue to struggle their entire lives with same sex attraction. They will have to face the simple fact that, at best, they can simply deny their natural same sex attractions...in exchange for that which doesn't come naturally to them. They MUST understand that this is the option...and not some pipe dream of magically becoming a heterosexual.
If this is what they want after realizing this, more power to them. It's more realistic, however, strictly from a logical and emotional level, to realize that the problems these people face are NOT ones of sexual orientation...but one of low self-esteem brought on by how they are viewed by those who tell them being gay is bad, sinful, wrong, perverted, etc.
I've interviewed many ex-gays...unwaveringly they all admit to struggling each and every day with same sex attraction. These people must understand that it will probably never go away. This will be their fate. Understand this first...THEN decide what you want to do. Don't give them false hope. Many of these people are very much hurting and confused and conflicted and because of how they were raised or how they view themselves based on societies disdain for gays, they are desperate for a "cure" and will do anything to change. They believe you guys and they end up being hurt all over again....set up...and then let down.
God loves you more than ANY EX-GAY MINISTER does. Believe that!
TALIESIN1961:
There is some interesting work which two US psychologists, Michael Schroeder and Ariel Shidlo recently sent me. They were commissioned I think by the American Psychological Association to look into the ethicality of 'ex-gay' treatments. But in the course of this they also looked again at the supposed effectiveness of the treatment.
The report was a bit rough in the way the sample was put together (two trawls for volunteers, one in the gay press and later one through 'ex-gay' groups) and covers a wide range of treatments, and I don't think the numbers should be taken too seriously, but out of a sample of 202 people who met the criteria laid down (ie that they were initially primarily gay), the following facts among others emerged:
1) Many of the therapists were behaving unethically. For example 1/4 of those who had been through the treatments had been pressured into joining, almost none of those who felt it wasn't working were given advice on alternative counselling, and most were misled about the position of the APAs and about the supposed success rates of 'ex-gay' treatments.
2) Most patients go through an initial 'honeymoon' with the 'ex-gay' movement,followed later by disillusion.
3) Because of the hostility and lack of support by most 'ex-gay' therapists to 'failures', most patients continued to lie to their therapists about their progress. This is almost certainly the reason why Exodus and Narth therapists continue to claim 30-50% success rates, when outsiders find much less.
4) Based on self-reporting by the patients to Schroeder and Shidlo, 14% did manage long-term to either greatly reduce or completely stop homosexual practices. Of these, 5% were 'struggling'. Another 5% reported being reasonably happy (almost all of this group were celibate).
5) Only 4% (ie 8 patients) reported a shift in sexual orientation from 5 or more to 3 or less on a 1-7 scale of hetero/homosexual balance. Of these - the only ones who could really be described I think as 'ex-gays' - 7 out of 8 put down as occupation that they were 'ex-gay' counsellors (4 were paid). The eighth person refused a follow-up interview.
This does really raise a very serious question - it does seem that almost the only people who will tell a third party (ie not their own therapist, or Narth or Exodus) that their sexual orientation has changed are themselves 'ex-gay' counsellors with a possible incentive to mislead.
6) Of the 86% 'failures', a group of perhaps 25% had managed to come to terms with their sexuality and were happy. The rest were mostly struggling with anxiety or depression. Again, there was no control group to compare with (another possible criticism of the study), but this group reported high rates of alcoholism, drug abuse and suicide attempts, increased on before the 'ex-gay' treatment. I would suspect high-risk sexual acts and lack of relationship stability would also characterise this group. To what extent the 'ex-gay' therapists are actually to blame for the troubles of this group is hard to assess without a proper control group to compare with: my guess is a lot of these people were depressed or anxious or guilt-ridden before they turned to the 'ex-gay' people. But it seems clear that, once the 'ex-gay' treatments had failed, their counsellors did not help this
group - in fact the reverse.
References:
A.Shidlo and M.Schroeder (2002): 'Changing Sexual Orientation: A Consumers' Report'. Professional Psychology, Recprds and Practice 2002 vol 33 248-259
M.Schroeder and A.Shidlo (2001): 'Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study for Consumers'. Journal of Gay and Lesbian Psychotherapy 5(3/4), 2001. Haworth Press
Also presented in preliminary version in 2000 to the American Psychological Association conference.
SIGN543:
Man, those are staggering figures and revelations.
One thing that's also noteworthy, is it's really unethical for these "ex-gay" therapists to try to change one's sexual orientation when they really haven't explored the reasoning behind "why" these adherents want to change in the first place. Most, they'll find, want to change because of what they've been fed by society.
It's a self-esteem issue. Homosexuality is simply the springboard for the low self-esteem...and not because of the individual but rather because of what they've been told by others.
You have to factor in the type of gay person that will even approach an ex-gay ministry or therapist...we'll find that there is an underlying problem that should be dealt with, aside from the sexual issue.
This one factor screws up any research or statistics that can be had from this topic.
TALIESIN1961:
I think what Schroeder and Shidlo are saying is that it is not unethical to offer treatment as such (so long obviously as that treatment doesn't involve pain or abuse - things like the old electric shock aversion therapy are now pretty well banned). Where many of these therapists go over the line (and S & S quote chapter and verse from the APA code of ethics on this) is:
1) By pressuring people into taking the therapy (ie exposing them to a morally judgemental position). This happens in about 1/4 of cases. I must add that I have seen a number of other cases where mothers of gay teens are told by online Christian groups to send their sons to 'ex-gay' groups - and other cases where counsellors themselves have been hanging round Christian teen groups in order to exert such pressure on youngsters. I won't name names, but this is close to breaching professional ethical codes I think.
2) Failing to inform people that there are alternatives to 'ex-gay' treatments before starting.
3) Providing people with misleading statements about professional bodies. Many 'ex-gay' counsellors make a habit of badmouthing the APAs (the NARTH people are notorious for this) and falsely claiming that the decision to remove the classification of homosexuality as a 'mental disorder' was based on political pressure, whereas in fact it was based on a review of the scientific literature.
4) Providing misleading statements about the efficacy of 'ex-gay' treatments. Basically any statement which implies that a person should expect it to succeed, and that if it doesn't it's their own fault, is grossly misleading based on numerous studies by outsiders (including Schroeder and Shidlo's own work). The figures of 30-50% success claimed by Exodus and Narth are certainly completely discredited and anyone repeating them without health warnings is again guilty of misrepresenting the situation to the people (s)he is counselling.
5) Failing to accept the wishes of some who have been failed by the 'ex-gay' treatments to seek other alternatives. Failure to provide aftercare and support, or at least names and addresses of people offering alternative approaches.
>>You have to factor in the type of gay person that will even approach an ex-gay ministry or therapist...we'll find that there is an underlying problem that should be dealt with, aside from the sexual issue.
<<
YOu are right of course to say that a lot of the gay people who approach these therapists have an underlying problem.
As I say, first you have to realise that a lot are teens or young men/women being pressured - probably unethically - by their parents and their parents' churches.
Secondly, I think there is an observed problem that a lot of people who come out of an abusive situation actively seek out further abuse. Look at the cases of bullied kids who seek bullying spouses. Or the battered wife or henpecked husband who gets divorced only to engage on a repeat performance with the next marriage. Many victims actually get so demoralised they come to see themselves as being to blame, for somehow not changing to meet the bully's expectations. And so they opt for more and more punishment of the same.
IN these cases I am sure ethical codes instruct therapists or counsellors to help people deal with the bullying - not to engage in similar pressure themselves, even when the patient requests that. After all, I believe the APAs do still recognise the effects of homophobic abuse as being an illness - even though unfortunately I have seen one 'ex-gay' counsellor who actually tries to pretend this means that gay people can still be treated as if their homosexuality were the illness ! According to some, these counsellors are deliberately and diametrically misrepresenting what is the illness.
