Hi,

Just found your website via DITC. I read the recent article on YWAM/Loren
Cunningham's book which brought back the very painful memories of a small
ministry I was involved with that tried to pattern itself in much the same
way that YWAM operates along with the influences and teaching of
Vineyard/Kansas City Prophets, books of Frank Peretti ad nauseum. These
ministries have had a devastating effect on the faith of untold thousands.
Recovering to normalcy and finding a simple Bible based faith, a real
relationship to Jesus becomes a difficult, daunting and seemingly, at times,
an impossible journey. None in those ministries were taught to be as the
Bereans and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments regarding these
ministries recruiting biases (i.e. 18 - 21 year olds) because they are more
easily manipulated. To be going after "Generation X" sounds despicable to me
and reminiscent of Madison Avenue marketing. I believe that once these
ministries have burned out and used up one young generation they move on to
the next young crop in an almost predatory manner. It is truly shameful.

P.

. . . Every alteration in the basic creed, each subsidence in the hidden
foundations of the Church "which the Lord founded upon the rock of faith,"
produces sooner or later cracks of division on the "surface" of the
Church's face.  If dogma is falsified, whether intentionally or not,
ecclesiology, both pastoral and administrative, is deformed, spiritual
life is falsified and man suffers... every problem for the Church is the
problem of the personal salvation of each of the faithful.  Consequently,
when the heretic lays hands on the "traditional faith" he lays hands on
the life of the faithful, their raison d'etre.  Heresy is at once
blasphemy towards God and a curse for man.

Archimandrite Vasileos, Hymn of Entry (Crestwood NY: SVS Press 1984) as
quoted by Clark Carlton in The Life: The Orthodox Doctrine of Salvation
(Regina Orthodox Press, 2000) p. 105

Regardless of how one denominationally defines such words as creed,
heresy, or blasphemy, the above statement, in my opinion, remains valid --
even for those who would deny that they even have a "dogma" or "doctrine" 
(as apparently Loren Cunningham did when approached about the Moral
Government theology teaching prevalent in YWAM).  All of us who claim
Jesus Christ as our Lord are part of the body of Christ, and we must
individually care for the integrity of our belief, not only for ourselves
-- though that is critical! -- but also foor our brothers and sisters, that
we might not add the condemnation of not walking in love to the burden of
wrong belief.  We were exhorted repeatedly by the apostles, and indeed, in
every age since, to examine ourselves relentlessly and not to be carried
away by either "strange doctrines" or our own "itching ears".  We must be
willing to bear the discomfort of correction at any moment, for the sake
of our Lord, who is the Author and Perfecter of our faith when we allow
Him to be... and sometimes in spite of us! 

On another note, God bless you for hearing your enemies.  That's a big
deal.  Not only do they help us to remain humble, which is pleasing in the
sight of God, they also *force* us into a place of discernment and relying
on God as David did when persecuted by Saul -- a blessed place we might
not otherwise reach.  Yes, I agree totally that non-specific attacks are
useless, and that confusion is never of God.  But it says quite a bit of
you that you actually have tried to listen.  God bless you!  You're on the
right road, if I may be so presumptuous as to say so.  St. John Chrysostom
said in one of his famous sermons that we should never be distressed by
the slander and insults of enemies (easy for him to say, eh?) but to take
the truth we find in them as means of self-improvement, discarding the
remainder in the full knowledge that we rest in God, knowing His provision
for those who fear Him. 

J.A.

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Robertson 
Sent: Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2002 06:29
To: K. B.
Subject: Re: To Greg Robertson

Dear Ken,

Thanks for your letter. I am glad that the article was a blessing to you. I
have also gone through a lot of struggles with the issues involved. If you
read other things at my web site you will see that I was basically a
Pelagian through my YWAM training and went through a time of disillusionment
and reformation. Some of the extreme positions of classical Calvinism, which
seem to be held by very few people these days, were always objectionable to
me and I never accepted them. To tell you the truth, I think the Calvinists
and the Arminians have made the same mistake in answering the question, "Why
some and not others?" They have both tried to answer a question through
logical consistency which is not clearly answered in Scripture. To me, the
most satisfying answer is still the Lutheran -- i.e., it's a paradox that
Scripture does not clearly resolve.

I have also read some stuff on the Banner of Truth label and agree with your
statement. Then again, I have marveled at the intellectual capacity and
scholarly productivity of the Reformed. In a way, their very strength has
become their weakness!

Blessings in Christ,
Greg Robertson
*******************************************************************************************

Hello Greg

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It occurred to me that initially
Calvinism was a reaction against the Pelagianism of medieval Catholicism,
and both you and I are reacting against the same heresy either in YWAM or
Willow Creek. It is easy to (over)react against one system by setting up one
that is opposite to counteract it, hence the tendency of Calvinism to go too
far in so emphasising God's sovereignty that man's role is virtually denied,
in order to distinguish it from Catholicism. Faith alone is another example,
as though works are irrelevant. But faith is not alone, as Melancthon said.
(I now live not far from where he was born in Bretten by the way.)
The NT is always balanced, and I wonder if this is to make sure that we
always correct any imbalances at any one time by showing the other side of
the story, so where man's role is paramount you have to do the
predestination verses, and where extreme Calvinism teaches limited atonement
or double predestination you have to emphasis God's love of all the world
etc and his general wish that all men would be saved. Perhaps then you don't
need to 'reconcile' the two, just accept both sides. I am sure we have
missed the point of it all if we only argue or resort to speculation about
what we think God ought to have done. It only really matters when the
presentation of the gospel becomes distorted or even false (decisional
regeneration, for example).
'As many as the Lord our God shall call' is balanced with 'Save yourselves
from this crooked generation' on the day of Pentecost. And the recipients
did not respond with 'Just a moment, Peter, is this for all of us or just
those who might be called, and how are we to know anyway, and what's with
your use of the middle voice ......'!!
Best regards
K. B.

Dear Greg,
Sorry to be so long in replying to your email of some months ago. Life is
busy here. I guess you have seen the report on deception in the church, where
Joy Dawson has endorsed Benny Hinn's "ministry". I have been tld by another
ex Ywammer that Loren Cunningham is going on his show next week!

Previously, I would have been totally at a loss to understand how such
leaders could be deceived, but now I'm afraid I understand too well.
Deception begets deception. Having taken a stand for years on the issues of
moral govt, which probably spawned spiritual mapping, it would be easy for
them to endorse Hinn. Sad isn't it.

I am trying to get their email addresses so I can address them personally,
but I feel it will probably be like water of a duck's back. Still, I should
try.

This is now getting very serious. I believe that those true Christians in
YWAM are going to have to make some very hard decisions over the next few
months. they may have to vote with their feet. they will need our support
and prayer.

Maranatha,
I. M.