Just curious to see what you guys think, since the issue of Roe vs. Wade is being concentrated on with the judges Bush is appointing. I'm also interested in seeing the reasons why abortion should be a federal issue or a states issue.

Edit: Where's my poll?

Anyway the choices for my poll were:

1. Banned at the national level

2. Determined state by state

3. Guaranteed civil right (as it is currently)

It should be a federal issue, but as of now there really doesn't seem any Constitutional way to make it a federal issue.

None. It is a personal decision.
I didn't sign any god damn social contract.

"Should" as in according to the Constitution, or according to our own personal utopia?

quote:

---

Mini Markus came out of the closet to say:
None. It is a personal decision.
I didn't sign any god damn social contract.

---

You could use the same logic to claim you are exempt from laws against rape.
You imply consent to it by remaining here.

quote:

---

Mini Markus came out of the closet to say:
None. It is a personal decision.
I didn't sign any god damn social contract.

---

I forged your signature, sucker.

quote:

---

getfiscal came out of the closet to say:
I forged your signature, sucker.

---

It was YOU! I figured my parents did it. Good thing I have this credible screenshot proving my innocence!

quote:

---

The Mic came out of the closet to say:
You could use the same logic to claim you are exempt from laws against rape.
You imply consent to it by remaining here.

---

That's preposterous. Although I can, I feel, claim exemption from certain laws (rape included), that doesn't mean I'm free to go rape people, nor does it have any bearing what-so-ever on what we're talking about. Abortion is a personal decision, not a legislative or judicial one. Until such a time as we have developed accurate scientific information, the criminal status of abortion remains unclear. As such, it is NOT a criminal issue.

Further, though let's not derail, I don't imply consent by anything. I give consent when I say so- you don't get to arbitrarily determine when I give consent. Enforcing laws under threat of imprisonment then claiming I give "consent" when I don't flee the country is just, if you'll pardon my language, statist bullshit.

Edit 2: Preventing massive derail.

quote:

---

Mini Markus came out of the closet to say:




That's preposterous. Although I can, I feel, claim exemption from certain laws (rape included), that doesn't mean I'm free to go rape people, nor does it have any bearing what-so-ever on what we're talking about. Abortion is a personal decision, not a legislative or judicial one. Until such a time as we have developed accurate scientific information, the criminal status of abortion remains unclear. As such, it is NOT a criminal issue.

---

If you accept the assumption that a fetus is a person, as most if not all pro-lifers would, then it could reasonably be argued that's it not just personal because it involves two people.

quote:

---

Mini Markus came out of the closet to say:

Further, though let's not derail, I don't imply consent by anything. I give consent when I say so- you don't get to arbitrarily determine when I give consent. Enforcing laws under threat of imprisonment then claiming I give "consent" when I don't flee the country is just, if you'll pardon my language, statist bullshit.

---

I don't want to derail either, but I'm curious, you think you only are bound by things you give your consent to? And I mean specific, personal consent here, not consent in the sense of the ability to vote as a group. So if you don't specifically say, "I agree to be bound by this law", you aren't?

quote:

---

Mini Markus came out of the closet to say:

Although I can, I feel, claim exemption from certain laws (rape included), that doesn't mean I'm free to go rape people, nor does it have any bearing what-so-ever on what we're talking about.

---

Please explain this, you've confused me.

Edit: To answer the actual question, the state.

Guaranteed civil right, but no public money spent to provide it.

Abortion should be decided on the State level. The founding fathers made the country with the intent that everything feasibly possible be left out of the hands of the Federal government. Not that we pay any attention to what they thought, but it is the way the country was shaped for the purpose of keeping people from imposing stupid shit on everybody. If something were inherently wrong with abortion then every state would have a ban on it. It's part of the "If you don't like it you can GHEAT OUT!" mentality. But without forcing people to leave the country. I'll find a state that most fits my personal attitude and live there, among other people who can at least mildly agree with me.

the nation was designed for issues like this to be dealt with at the state, not federal level.

Tyranny is tyranny to me, whether it's federal, state, or local.

quote:

---

MarginWalker came out of the closet to say:
Abortion should be decided on the State level. The founding fathers made the country with the intent that everything feasibly possible be left out of the hands of the Federal government. Not that we pay any attention to what they thought, but it is the way the country was shaped for the purpose of keeping people from imposing stupid shit on everybody. If something were inherently wrong with abortion then every state would have a ban on it. It's part of the "If you don't like it you can GHEAT OUT!" mentality. But without forcing people to leave the country. I'll find a state that most fits my personal attitude and live there, among other people who can at least mildly agree with me.

---

Everyone listen to the lurker.

Roe was a crappy decision. Trying to use a 'living constitution' to infer things that don't exist violates the entire purpose of having a constitution. The proper way to enshrine new things is through amendments, not fabricating rights or reading between the lines of between the lines of an article. Until there's an abortion amendment to the constitution, or a more general medical amendment that would cover abortion, this is a state issue.

State level, despite the fact that anti-choice (heehee, semantics) will say if your state makes abortion illegal, they can just go to another state.

Nationally. And it should be legal until actual birth.

Absolutely it is a matter for the states, just like the legality of marijuana, the drinking age, education, and all the other bullshit that's been commerce-claused down our throats since the Roosevelt administration.

Make the "morning after pill" over the counter and this whole stupid fucking abortion debate will go away, forever.

As much as I want abortions available to everyone, I think it should be a states rights decision. As should gun and drug laws.

^^^What this guy says too.

quote:

---

Abortion is a personal decision, not a legislative or judicial one.

---

Incorrect. There are laws regulating abortion. The implementation of most of these laws requires the judicial system.

quote:

---

Until such a time as we have developed accurate scientific information, the criminal status of abortion remains unclear.

---

The criminal status of abortion is unclear only inasmuch as the laws about it are unclear. Criminality is a legal, not a scientific matter.

quote:

---

As such, it is NOT a criminal issue.

---

Huh? I could have sworn there was a big thread on GBS about someone receiving a criminal conviction for their role in an abortion.

Or did you mean to say "should be" every time you said "is?"

You're usually an excellent poster, but phrasing your value judgments as if they are facts is just annoying.

Abortion's one of those damned touchy issues for me, because I can totally empathize with the anti-abortion crowd.

I'd prefer it be a state matter, legal until the start of the third trimester. Another part of me wants to err on the side of caution and knock it down to the start of the second, or perhaps ban it altogether.

quote:

---

fx came out of the closet to say:
Make the "morning after pill" over the counter and this whole stupid fucking abortion debate will go away, forever.

---

This would be my preferred situation, actually.

quote:

---

McCaine came out of the closet to say:
Nationally. And it should be legal until actual birth.

---

So literally a woman can get an abortion right before her "water breaks" and you'd be fine with it?

State with no prosecution across state lines. If your state sucks, move to another or take a road trip. As far as I know it'll only hurt a state on average rather than help, unless crazy pro-lifers are big time tourists.

quote:

---

fx came out of the closet to say:
Make the "morning after pill" over the counter and this whole stupid fucking abortion debate will go away, forever.

---

Some women would refuse to use it. People refuse to use condoms or atleast a spermicide.

State-level decision. But this is my answer for pretty much any government function that isn't "The military" or "Negotiated treaties with other sovereign countries" or a few other strictly limited things. You know, the stuff actually enumerated in the original Constitution before we decided that it was just a 'quaint' document that we could 'update' by 'interpreting' it.

I liked the idea of having all the States be little experimental petri dishes where we could work out, by voting with our feet, what worked and what didn't. The more we impose a homogeneity of behavior on the states (by bribing states with highway money if they buckle under and raise the drinking age to 21, to pick an example), the more we vitiate that experiment, and the more power we concentrate to the federal level. Concentration of power bothers me -- control of the US Military and treaty-making power is already quite sufficient for the FedGov. Power over, well, the whole wide-ranging portfolio of life activities they currently meddle in is intensely bothersome.

State matter, until such time as there's a constitutional amendment.

quote:

---

KarlPolanyi came out of the closet to say:
Incorrect. There are laws regulating abortion. The implementation of most of these laws requires the judicial system.

The criminal status of abortion is unclear only inasmuch as the laws about it are unclear. Criminality is a legal, not a scientific matter.

Or did you mean to say "should be" every time you said "is?"

You're usually an excellent poster, but phrasing your value judgments as if they are facts is just annoying.

---

Well, if he thinks it's a matter of *human rights* and if he says it enough times and enough people begin to agree, then anyone who disagrees with him will become a bigot and an inhuman bastard.

The whole say-it's-a-right-and-the-new-generation-might-agree approach has worked fairly successfully....

Edit: It clearly falls into a criminal/notcriminal duality for the majority of the population currently, and as I'm a Canadian and criminal law is federal jurisdiction, I vote federal.

By the doctor.

The lurker nailed it. This is a state issue, as are all issues not specifically assigned to the federal government.

quote:

---

AlteniaTT came out of the closet to say:
As much as I want abortions available to everyone, I think it should be a states rights decision. As should gun and drug laws.

---

How can you think that states should be able to trump a federally protected right? Do you also support states nerfing first amendment rights? Would you be ok with Texas passing legislation making it illegal to criticize the president of the United States?

Guaranteed civil right. And I would like to point out that anyone who would use "state's rights" as a basis to argue otherwise can go fuck themselves. There's no such thing as a civil right to control the private lives of other people.

quote:

---

Donkeylingus came out of the closet to say:
Guaranteed civil right, but no public money spent to provide it.

---

Why not? If you need government money to afford an abortion, odds are you'd need a crapload more government money if you were to carry the pregnancy to term. Even if you gave the baby up for adoption, prenatal care and childbirth would still be much more expensive than the average abortion.

__________________
"I'll show you what's going to fit in that hole....... It's in my pocket here."
-Mister Rogers

As with all social issues, this should be decided at the state level.

quote:

---

GlassofWater came out of the closet to say:
So literally a woman can get an abortion right before her "water breaks" and you'd be fine with it?

---

Yes.

quote:

---

Cockmaster came out of the closet to say:
Guaranteed civil right. And I would like to point out that anyone who would use "state's rights" as a basis to argue otherwise can go fuck themselves. There's no such thing as a civil right to control the private lives of other people.

---

There's no such thing as a right if there's no law guaranteeing it. Rights are not innate, they are ascribed by an authority.

quote:

---

Mindcrime came out of the closet to say:
The lurker nailed it. This is a state issue, as are all issues not specifically assigned to the federal government.


How can you think that states should be able to trump a federally protected right? Do you also support states nerfing first amendment rights? Would you be ok with Texas passing legislation making it illegal to criticize the president of the United States?

---

Its not really a federally protected right -- Roe v. Wade just basically made up the right to privacy. As much as I think abortion should be legal across the board, I don't think we should piss all over the Constitution to do it. Like we do with everything else (ICC hooray!).

quote:

---

McCaine came out of the closet to say:
Yes.

---

What about right after birth? The experience for the baby is going to be no different. I see how one could argue that immediate post birth abortion shouldn't be allowed becuase it is no longer necessarily a burden on the mother. However, I think that if there ever becomes a social need (i.e. - overpopulation) for population reduction, that it would be fine to kill babies right after they're born.

quote:

---

Argueman came out of the closet to say:
Its not really a federally protected right -- Roe v. Wade just basically made up the right to privacy. As much as I think abortion should be legal across the board, I don't think we should piss all over the Constitution to do it. Like we do with everything else (ICC hooray!).

---

The right to bear arms is a constitutionally protected right, sir. I'm assuming you thought I was referring to abortion, but I was responding to the poster's comment about states dictating gun control laws.

quote:

---

Koine came out of the closet to say:
There's no such thing as a right if there's no law guaranteeing it. Rights are not innate, they are ascribed by an authority.

---

Not according to the U.S. government. Do you honestly believe that rights are granted to people by government, or did I misread your post?

quote:

---

Argueman came out of the closet to say:


Its not really a federally protected right -- Roe v. Wade just basically made up the right to privacy. As much as I think abortion should be legal across the board, I don't think we should piss all over the Constitution to do it. Like we do with everything else (ICC hooray!).

---

The Ninth Amendment would like to have a word with you.

quote:

---

Mindcrime came out of the closet to say:

Not according to the U.S. government. Do you honestly believe that rights are granted to people by government, or did I misread your post?

---

Exactly. It's always going to be "according to X government." You'll notice the U.S. doesn't try to enforce SCOTUS decisions in Zimbabwe.

Conceptually, it's not as if the Constitution recognises any rights independent of the Constitution itself. The Constitution grants Americans rights, much as the Charter grants Canadians rights. All authority is vested in the Constitution -- it is supreme, not some set of *rights* outside of it that some people manage to think they have a better handle on than others.

Edit: For example, take the stupid marijuana issue. Some people claim it's their inherent human right to do with their bodies what they please, and some people (and the current legal establishment) disputes this. To settle this issue, we appeal to the authority of the Constitution (if we're Americans). One of us is right, and the other is wrong. With time, the one that was right could become wrong, and vice versa.

If so-called "human rights" are independent of government, they would be immutable. If you want to conceptualise them as ideals, or say that certain things *should* be rights, that's fine. But the actual rights we have are granted to us by governments. That's why people in China don't have the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. That's why people in Zimbabwe don't have the right to freedom of expression. It's really as simple as that.

quote:

---

fx came out of the closet to say:
Make the "morning after pill" over the counter and this whole stupid fucking abortion debate will go away, forever.

---

This is by far the best idea.

Barring that, it should be a state issue.

It should be determined on the federal level. If abortion is killing a human being, it should be illegal period. However, the humanity of a fetus is suspect.

quote:

---

Koine came out of the closet to say:
Exactly. It's always going to be "according to X government." You'll notice the U.S. doesn't try to enforce SCOTUS decisions in Zimbabwe.

Conceptually, it's not as if the Constitution recognises any rights independent of the Constitution itself. The Constitution grants Americans rights, much as the Charter grants Canadians rights. All authority is vested in the Constitution -- it is supreme, not some set of *rights* outside of it that some people manage to think they have a better handle on than others.

---

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

I believe the idea is that all people have these rights, but we have no business violating sovereign nations to impose our beliefs on other people. (*ding dong) Oh wait, Iraq is at the door.