Does the Bible teach the Doctrine of Unconditional Election?

 

Cross Examination Session:  Nick Norelli

 

The following is a cross-examination session between Moses  Flores and Nick Norelli concerning the doctrine of Unconditional Election.  Each of the participants met in a private chat room and were given equal amounts of time to exchange questions and answers.

 

 

Nick: The doctrine of unconditional election as believed by Calvinists holds that before the foundation of the world, God elected certain men to salvation and certain men to reprobation based on an eternal and immutable decree. Is this correct?

MOSES: That is correct

Nick: Calvinists also believe that foreseen faith could not have been a determining factor in God's election of these certain men to salvation because these men did not yet exist before the foundation of the world to commit these acts. Is this correct?

MOSES: mmmm...I would say that is incorrect.

Nick: OK... Can you clarify please?

MOSES: Its not that in one sense "they didn't exist", its simply that salvation was never intended to be based on anything from the creature but solely on God's grace and mercy.

Nick: Are you an Infra[-lapsarian] or Supra[-lapsarian]?

MOSES: To be honest, I'm probably both depending on what type of order one is referring too.  As I understand Robert Reymond's critique of these, both of these have two different orders in view; one logical, the other chronological.  So depending on what viewpoint one takes in regards to what order one wishes to discuss, at least I agree with Robert Reymond here, a Calvinist may actually be both.

Nick: Thus far we have not really touched on the subject of reprobation. What are your views concerning this?

MOSES: I certainly believe that the Bible does indeed teach that there are some who are not chosen unto eternal life and are thus left in their own sinfulness as is clearly demonstrated in Romans 9 with the example of Pharaoh:  "for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you..."  Romans 9:17

Nick: Where does human responsibility fit into the doctrine of unconditional election as you understand it?

MOSES: While most people understand human responsibility as being based on human ability, I think that the Scriptures teach that our responsibility to God is based on our obligation to him as our Creator.  Calvinist certainly do believe that men have a will and that they make choices of which they will and must be held accountable before their Creator, who is holy and righteous.  We are responsible for our own sin as well which proceeds from our own corrupted hearts of which we choose willingly to follow its evil desires.  There is no coercion from God in anyway; we are sinful and responsible for our sins.   And in the doctrine of Total depravity, we can only sin and, thus, need divine grace before we can attain to any type of movement toward God in faith.

Nick: What did God base his choice on if not foreseen faith?

MOSES: I think Ephesians 1:3-6 makes it abundantly clear that God choose us in Him before the foundation of the world:  “IN LOVE” and “to the praise of his glorious GRACE”.  Hence, it was solely based on the will of God alone to be merciful and gracious to some whom He chose to freely love in Christ Jesus

Nick: Is there any explanation as to why God would choose to freely love some and not others? Or can we chalk that up a one of the great mysteries of the Faith?

MOSES: No, I think the Scriptures make it clear in Romans 9:20-24 that God has made some vessels for honor and some for dishonor all to reveal the fullness of God's glory, even the glory of the wrath of God and the mercy of God.  As to why specific individuals, certainly that is something God has not revealed in Scripture and keeps within his own counsel. 

Nick: Where is regeneration and sanctification in the "ordo salutis”?

MOSES: Regeneration precedes faith and repentance in the ordo salutis.  As to sanctification, defined broadly, it takes place at the beginning for from eternity one is "set apart" unto God for salvation.  Defined narrowly, or experientially, sanctification, I would say, is probably simultaneous with justification, though I'm not going to be so dogmatic about it because there is a sense in which it is taking place with or following regeneration

 

Nick: In one of the definitions you provided for "foreknowledge" it said that it was used to in terms of prescience, but rather love... (my paraphrase) -- How is this?

MOSES: If you look in Romans 8:29 and in Romans 11:2, it should be noted that "foreknow" is a verb, not a noun (which would be a body of knowledge).  To "foreknow" is something God does.  The Greek word there is "proginoskos".  "Ginoskos" carries with it the understanding of an "intimate knowledge of someone or something" much similar to the old testament form of "know"  (yadah  ?, see Amos 3:2) even the usage of a man "knowing" his wife.  Hence, when God "foreknows" (verb usage, because there is a noun usage), it is God's intimate knowledge of someone that He has beforehand that is the basis of the understanding of God foreknowing as "foreloving" which is attested to by various scholars as quoted in one of my responses from the Wycliffe Bible Dictionary

Nick: Then it would be safe to say that God did not foreknow the reprobate, correct?

MOSES: According to the verb usage of the word in Scripture, God never "foreknows" the reprobate because that would mean that God's love would also be the basis of there condemnation as equally the salvation of the elect.  So, you are correct in asserting that.