Does the Bible teach the Doctrine of Total Depravity?
Cross Examination
Session: Moses Flores
The following is a cross-examination session
between Moses Flores and Nick Norelli concerning the
doctrine of Total Depravity. Each of the
participants met in a private chat room and were given
equal amounts of time to exchange questions and answers.
Moses: Alrighty....first things first. Nick, I'm having a
hard time understanding exactly what your position is concerning how far sin
has impacted humanity, particularly in regards to one's will. Could you
help me understand your position in regards to "free will"?
Nick: Sure thing... My position regarding free will is
simply this... Man is free in regards to the choices he makes, meaning that
every option which is set before him, man has the freedom to choose that which he will... I believe
that sin has ruined man to the point that apart from the grace of God they will
never choose that which is good... Sin has so effected
the person that he will naturally unaided by God's grace continue in sin... Not
of necessity, but rather of free choice... But once empowered by the grace of
God they may choose the good as opposed to the evil... This is what I referred to as pre-regeneration/post-grace
in my original paper.
Moses: Doesn't that sound a bit
inconsistent in that you allow for freedom to [choose]
that which he will, yet you also say that man cannot choose good apart from
grace?
Nick: It is not that they "can't" but rather
they "won't" -- That is why I stated that man will continue in sin
"not of necessity but rather of free choice" -- The reason I say this
is because if they of necessity sin and have no ability to do anything other
than sin, then God cannot hold them accountable for their sin... But if they of
their own free will choose that which is evil then God is absolutely just to
condemn them for their sin... At this point I would have to insert that the
grace is present, but can be rejected
(although I was hoping to save this for the "I" portion of the debate).
Moses: Could you turn to John 6:44 and,
for the record, state the verse...
Nick: Sure... Any particular
translation?
MOSES: just what you have most
immediately
Nick: Joh 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day (KJV)
MOSES: on the basis of this text, would
you agree that an inability is ascribed to man here by the Lord Jesus?
Nick: Yes... I would agree that in and of himself, man is unable to come to Jesus.
MOSES: what is the condition in which
men may "come to Christ" which is to say "believe in"
Christ?
Nick: If I understand the question correctly, the
condition would be being drawn by the Father.
MOSES: Do you believe that all men are
drawn by the Father in this way so as to "enable" them to believe in
Christ?
Nick: I believe that the context of John 6:44 reveals
that believers are specifically being referred to... So I would not include all
men in John 6:44... I just [want] to add that if you were to ask that about the
Bible in general, then I would say that yes, I
believe that the prevenient grace of God enables all
men to come to the Father... But the text in question specifically speaks of
believers as is evident from vss. 37, 39,etc…
MOSES: ok....final questions...Concerning
these statements of yours: "Certainly God does not command that
which He knows man has no ability to perform," and "If God says that
a man should do something, then it follows that they can do it." Is it your position, from these statements,
that whatever God commands man possesses the ability to do?
Nick: It is my position that God through his grace
enables man to do these things... They do not possess the ability in and of
themselves...