Does the Bible teach the Doctrine of the Papacy?

 

Cross Examination Session

Examiner: Ben

 

The following is a cross-examination session between Moses Flores and Ben Rosado concerning the office of the Papacy.  Each of the participants met in a private chat room and were given roughly 45 minutes to exchange questions and answers.

 

 

 

 

Ben: Could Peter be the chief apostle without the other apostles with him?

 

Moses: Logically, it would seem to be the case that a "head apostle" of sorts would require "other apostles".

 

Ben: Do you hold that the Apostles were great saints?

 

Moses: Saints in the Biblical sense of the term that we are all saints who are made holy by the Holy Spirit and certainly great men of God ordained for their foundational role in redemptive history. 

 

Ben: Well in respect to what one accomplishes for the Lord, were their roles greater than other saints?

 

Moses: I honestly can't say for I believe each saint called by God to their own role shouldn't be compared to the other roles of saints.  Each person has their own part to play in the foreordained plan of God, nobody "greater" than another but only some more privileged in their roles in redemptive history.

 

Ben: Well let me ask, is it more blessed to be a foundation stone in the new Jerusalem than to be the janitor?

 

Moses: LOL.  I think the apostles have a unique place in redemptive history but I still don't want to say that any work was "greater" even by the least in the kingdom of God

 

Ben: Do you believe in the kingdom some have higher (or we could say closer) places to the Lord?

 

Moses: No I do not.  I believe we are all ungodly sinners justified through faith and equally stand before God solely on the basis of the righteous of Jesus Christ alone.  As such, I cannot believe that any person is any closer to the Lord in regards to their status.

 

Ben: So then you do not believe there is such a thing as the least in the kingdom of heaven?

 

Moses: Not in the sense of our standing before God.  I would understand "least" in the sense of accomplishment and even noticeability before men, rather than before God.

 

Ben: So what about the seats at Jesus right and left in the kingdom?  Jesus seems to believe there are such places of honor.  Do you believe this to be true?

 

Moses: Could you give me a text?

 

Ben: Sure.

 

Ben: Mt 20, 23.  Jesus says: “…but to sit at my right and at my left is not mine to give but for those whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

 

Moses: Well, as I understand this text, I certainly have no problems believing in a "right and left seat".  However, I think it is equally clear that these seats are not given on the basis of any merit that anyone can or has accomplished.  Rather, Jesus makes it very clear that these seats are given only "for those whom it has been prepared by my Father."  In light of the doctrine of unconditional election clearly taught in Scripture and the graciousness of God, these positions, if given, are not given on the basis of any merit by the one's sitting in them but by grace alone by the Father.

 

Ben: I think we have a different concept of what grace alone accomplishes, although Catholics do believe in grace alone for salvation.  Let me start a different topic.

 

Moses: Alrighty.

 

Ben: Do you hold to the idea that the early church had bishops as overseers?

 

Moses: Certainly.  I believe that the Bishops of the Church were the elders as the term is used interchangeably in passages like Acts 20:17, 28

 

Ben: Great.  Do you believe that the original bishops were Peter and the 11 apostles?

 

Moses: No.  I think there is a clear distinction that comes out from Acts and the Pastoral epistles that the Apostles did not function as the elders of the Church.  They were apostles.  They were unique with no one else like them or no other offices like them.  The apostle appointed elders but they were not the elders.  The apostles traveled and spread the Gospel while the elders (Gr. Presbuteros ) ruled the Church as a normative function vs. the apostles' unique function in redemptive history.

 

Ben: So do you believe then that the apostles appointed elders over themselves??? Or vice versa

 

Moses: According to Scripture, the apostles' ministry was unique and began the Church.  They appointed elders but not over themselves, for when the apostles were alive, Scripture give the sense that the elders were accountable to the apostles while they were alive.  When the apostles all died, their unique office passed away with them.

 

Ben: Well then, you actually do at least, believe the Apostles were the bishops over the church?

 

Moses: I believe they functioned like elders in their teaching ministry, but I would still have to say they were more than elders in that the office of the elders was always meant and established by them to the norm of Church government.  The gift of apostleship, I believe, passed form the Church with the death of the last apostle.

 

Ben: Did the apostles ever make binding decisions over the whole church in the bible, from what you have read?

 

Moses: Sure.  I think the clearest one is in Acts 15 in which they had to settle an issue regarding Gentiles and salvation, especially since the earlier converts to Christianity were Jewish and the Messiah was Jewish....ummmm…I would say that any matters to which they spoke and we have recorded in Scripture were also "binding" in regards to the content of what the Gospel is and what one must do to be saved.

 

Ben: What about the decision in 397 A.D. of which books to include in the bible?  Did the church make a binding decision upon all Christians then?  Or are we free to add and subtract from the canon that was defined?

 

Moses: I don't believe the Canon of the Roman Catholic Church was infallibly settled in 397....Roman Catholic Encyclopedia's and scholars concur that Rome didn't even infallibly and dogmatically settle her canon until April 8, 1546 at the 4th session of the Council of Trent. Also, I would point out that the canons of Carthage and Hippo include 3 Esdras which was left out of the canon of Trent in 1546 so, the list discrepancy obviously cannot mean that Carthage and Hippo infallible settled the canon

 

Ben: Do you know that the same canon is defined in both of those councils?  The same exact books are said to be the inspired word of God. 

 

Moses: Again....3 Esdras was left out of the canon of Trent, even Catholic apologist Gary Michuta agree that it was "passed over in silence"....thus, huge discrepancy.  Either the canon of Hippo and Carthage is right or the one in Trent is

 

Ben: Well let us continue this another time.  I would love to but we have gotten off topic, mainly my fault.

 

Moses: Agreed.

 

Ben: Are deacons lower in authority than bishops?

 

Moses: hmmm...well as I understand, the diaconal ministry is one of service while eldership is one of teaching and governing.  So it would seem to be the case that the deacon of the church is subordinate to that of the elders.

 

Ben: Okay I agree with you.  Now did the Apostles ordain others to continue the teaching ministry (for example Timothy and Titus)?

 

Moses: Certainly.  Timothy at least is a great example of an elder, ordained to the Church at Ephesus from what I have studied.  These were commanded to teach the "faith once for all delivered to the saints" and contained in the Scriptures and the writings of the apostles and their closest followers (cf. 2 Tim. 3, 2 Pet. 2).

 

Ben: I also agree with you in what you said.  And then did Timothy ever ordain anyone to the ministry?

 

Moses: Certainly it would seem to be the case as he is instructed in I Tim. 3:1-8 how to identify elders along with their qualifications.

 

Ben: Okay great. Do you believe that the church continued its mission after Acts 28?

 

Moses: If their "mission" was to spread the Gospel to all the world as Jesus said in Matthew 28:18-19, then I certainly believe that the Church has done so and continues to do so to this day, glory to God.

 

Ben: Wonderful, I also agree with that.  Can the church ever be corrupted?

 

Moses: I believe that corruption can certainly exist within the Church of Christ.  I think Jesus alludes to this in saying that the "wheat" and the "tares" must coexist together.  I think the apostolic warnings in dealing with apostasy and false doctrines within the Church make it clear that the possibility existed.  Further, I think letters like Galatians and Colossians are explicit evidence that false teachings actually existed within the Church.  For the Galatians it was the "Judaizers" and the Colossians dealt with an early form of Gnosticism as did the apostle John in his first epistle (I John).  Let me add to that, not to the point that the Church can ever cease to exist or lose her true profession or identity however.

 

Ben: Can Jesus promise that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church mean that the gates of Hell did indeed prevail against the church?

 

Moses: I'm not sure I understand the way the question is phrased, but I think I know what you are alluding to.   Ummm....what I understand Jesus saying there is that the Church, though assaulted by hell itself because of her confession in Christ as the son of the living God, will never cease to exist.  I believe that though she may be corrupted, the confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Rock of the Church, will always stand and prevail victoriously.

 

Ben: If my brother sinned against me in the year 800 A.D., where would I find the visible church to bring my dispute to if not to, if not to the Catholic Church?

 

Moses: If your brother sinned against you in 800 A.D., then according to Scripture you should first confront that brother himself, if he doesn't listen, then you take witnesses, if he still refuses then he is brought before the Church (especially the elders)....but in such a case, I honestly can't say how such a matter would be taken up.