Does the Bible teach the
Doctrine of the Papacy?
Second Rebuttal Statement
Ben Rosado
Dear Moses,
Well I have been praying a lot these days and I want to
apologize for the comments I made at the end of my last statement. I
believe, that with the Lord's help, I will start anew
and talk to you as you truly are, a brother in Jesus Christ.
I am sorry though Moses.
Well let me take this chance to do my best to explain what
we Catholics believe about the papacy.
So it begins like this:
Jesus Christ loves us. He died and rose again for
us. He is the Lord of all creation and the redeemer of humanity.
Without Him, we could not ever be saved. But Praise the Lord, He suffered for our sake, even to the point of death,
death on a cross.
Now before and after His death and resurrection, He knew
beforehand all that would take place. After all, He is the Son of God and
is actually God, the second person of the holy Trinity.
So because He foreknew this, He began forming His church on
earth. But some people might ask, why a church? Why not just do
something else?
Well our Lord wanted to forma a church with a hierarchy
because It would really need to be kept in order and
guided, although of course it is guided by the holy Spirit. But the
Spirit's relationship with the church works in this way: He did not just
show up as the head honcho as a big dove who could speak! lol. nooo! The holy Spirit speaks through the apostles and leaders of the
church. That is how the church is guided!
Now you talked about how you don't believe that the church
fathers were unanimous in their understanding of Peter as the rock. Well, you did mention one person, Tertullian, who
lived in the 3rd century. Now this is goo that
you have mentioned him. Because He was like minded in
many things to the church. You should read all that he said in
fact. If of course you respect him.
Tertullian did say some very interesting things. I
can see how you believe that he was defining the rock as strictly Simon's confession
about Jesus. But I also see something interesting about what is said:
Tertullian seems to be speaking to someone specific and is
refuting a specific argument. He seems to be trying to prove that, behind
all things, Christ is the one at work. He goes on to talk about miracles
in reference to Peter and says something very similar.
But your statement, that Peter must be the rock, since Tertullian
seems to say so, is not enough to disclaim every other church father. For
one thing, the Church never canonized him. This means that throughout all
time, no one ever thought that his thoughts and actions were pure enough to
render him the honor of the name saint.
Now there are a couple of issues that I really hope to
develop. There are 3: ecumenism, infallibility and the rock.
Also you said that there are other church fathers who have
spoken in some form like Tertullian. I would like to see what they
said. I hope that you can provide some evidence for them supporting your
claim and not only mention their names. I would like to hear what they
said too.
Unanimous consent does not mean that the church is not
built upon the traditions and scripture passed down by the apostles and early
church fathers, because we are! In fact, if you look at all the fathers
on this or any other subject, you will see how powerfully they agree
in total respects.
But there is something a little confusing on your
page. You posted that some people said this and some other thing.
But there are not enough quotes of the actual words. This is
disheartening. Because I would love to hear what they
actually said.
I did search the site containing the early church faters and found them to be very catholic! Very
sacramental and with honor given to blessed virgin
Mary. They seemed to be as catholic as can be. here
are a few quotes from some of the people you mentioned in name:
I will post what each father you mentioned said:
Cyprian: "And he says to him again after the
resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to
him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to
all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own
authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the
others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is
(thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the
apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of
Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair
of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in
the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we
bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate
itself to be the one and undivided." The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D.
251-256).
Jerome: "…I think it my duty to consult the
chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by
Paul…The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord,
bears fruit an hundredfold…My words are spoken to the successor of the
fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so
I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is
with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is
built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten.
This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the
flood prevails.” To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2
(A.D. 375).
Augustine: "Number the bishops from the See of
Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is
the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail"
Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D.
393).
John Chrysostom: "Or rather, if we hear him
here, we shall certainly see him hereafter, if not as standing near him, yet
see him we certainly shall, glistening near the Throne
of the king. Where the Cherubim sing the glory, where the Seraphim are flying,
there shall we see Paul, with Peter, and as a chief and leader of the choir of
the Saints, and shall enjoy his generous love. For if when here he loved men
so, that when he had the choice of departing and being with Christ, he chose to
be here...” Epistle to the Romans, Homily 32:24 (c. A.D. 391).
Ambrose: "Your grace must be besought not to
permit any disturbance of the Roman Church, the head of the whole Roman World
and of the most holy faith of the Apostles, for from thence flow out to all
(churches) the bonds of sacred communion." To Emperor
Gratian, Epistle 11:4 (A.D. 381).
These are some of the things those very fathers said.
But even more specific would be if we quoted the fathers who were closest in
time to the apostles.
Would you be willing to listen to the teachings handed down
by the Apostles to the Pope of the church during the year 96 A.D.?
I mean, that is as close as it gets. If he has it
wrong, then how could he have been put in the position of leading the church
through the Holy Spirit?
This is Clement of Rome, Pope :
"The
Or even someone like Ignatius of Antioch, who was taught
personally by the apostles Peter and Paul:
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus
does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also
reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church
without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is
[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.
Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the
bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall
appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is,
there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of
I will give just one more here because there are too many
to post!
"All the people wondered that there should be such a
difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable
Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic
teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word
that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished."
Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).
The people quoted are some saints and some not. The
saints are those whom the church honors with that title because they have shown
that they are truly worthy to be selected into the Eternal dwelling places,
because Christ dwelt within them deeply. The were
reborn by Christ Jesus and loved as He loved.
Let me say a few other things about all of
this. If Christ is for us, who can be against us? And of
course the teaching from scripture that brings this all to light:
Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and
forever.
This means that if the Church believed this back then, it
should always believe this. The truth does not change, even if it is hard
to understand. How can God use a person to lead a church?
Well every church has a pastor right? Doesn't
the church you go to have a pastor?
Well, how much more so the very church founded by
Jesus! And how beautiful it is that, to preserve His
church, the Lord entrusted keys of authority for its leaders. Read
Acts 15, 28-29. Or read the whole thing for that matter! It
describes a church that can make binding decisions for Christians, to lead them
in the right path again.
In Acts 15, the holy Spirit guides
and preserves the church, He also helps it grow. What is so wrong with
thinking that God preserves His church with the power of the Holy Spirit so
that it can teach infallibly?
The glory only goes to God in this. Because it is God who creates, God who redeems, and God who
sanctifies and guides. We are His church. A
church that he has commanded to have bishops and leaders. While He
works miracles through us all.
So this is what I have to show in reference to what you
sent me Moses.
May God bless you with an increase in faith and devotion to
our Lord.
within the Church built upon Peter, in union with the Lord Jesus
Christ, my savior,
Ben