Does the Bible teach the Doctrine of the Papacy?

 

First Rebuttal Statement

 

Ben Rosado

 

 

 

Moses,

 

I am glad the way that this is going.  What you brought up in the beginning of your statement actually helps me to define how the Papacy and doctrines are understood.  I pray that this will be not only understood, but also accepted.

 

You quoted that:

 

In 1308, Pope Boniface VIII issued a “papal bull” titled Unam Sanctum which stated that those “not committed to the care of Peter and His successors, they must confess that they are not of Christ’s sheep, even as the Lord says in John, ‘There is one fold and one shepherd’…

 

This is in fact true.  And we do not recant what was said by Pope Boniface.  But after Vatican II, the church has excelled its understanding of this very old statement.

 

Please listen to what we now teach about this very statement.  We teach that Protestants are a part of Christ's sheep.  This is because Protestants are under the care of Peter and His successors.

 

This is because the bible came from God and was put into the hands of the Catholic Church.  After all, who else defined what books did and did not belong to the canon of scripture?  It was of course, the Catholic Church with the inspiration of the holy Spirit.  Can you deny this?

 

Be warned, if you claim that we did this without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you have a huge problem with your bible.  It most certainly has some wrong books in it.  Also, some of the books that should be there are not.  Because who can make an infallible decision (like which books belong to the bible) without the Holy Spirit???

 

you then also continued the quote:

 

this we declare, say, define, and pronounce to be altogether necessary to salvation.”

 

Well yes indeed, because the knowledge of Christ has come through the Catholic Church.

 

You then quoted your bible with:

 

And also I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it

 

So your version of the bible says and also.  I ask you to go back to the Greek text and see if this is the true words that used.  I can assure you that this is not what was said.  Look it up.  This kind of reminds me about when Martin Luther added the word alone to the scriptures so that it would read:  WE are saved by faith alone.  I wonder if you knew that he did that.  Adding words to the bible to make it say what he wanted it to say.  Look it up too, it's all easy to find on the internet now.

 

But I digress.  Let me go back to your paper.

 

I am not sure if you have read what you wrote yourself in this next part.

 

The “you”, here, is plural (autois). Since this question is addressed to all the disciples, it is going to follow that Peter speaks for the group and professes a common faith amongst all the disciples first.  That is, Peter was not speaking only for himself when he confessed Jesus as the Christ.  Rather, he spoke for all as he has done before (eg. John 6:68).  So Peter is merely speaking as the first among equals and not from a position of superiority of faith.

 

So you say that the word used is the plural "you."  That means that He was asking all the apostles not just Peter.  If you actually claim that this means that the answer given next will speak for all the apostles then you have two different dilemmas.

 

1)  All of them are the sons of Jonah.

 

2)  or you are saying that Peter is the spokesman for the apostles.  That is what Catholics say too.  Who do you think that the Pope is?  He is the Chief of the Apostles.  You even claimed it yourself.

 

Moses, I am getting tired of this discussion with you.  Your own words are for you to listen to:

 

The obvious point of what Jesus is saying is that recognition of Jesus’ identity cannot be attained through mere human reason and deduction, as we have already seen that the conclusions of the people were missing the mark.  Rather, it must come by revelation from God the Father Himself.  A similar theme is picked up in Jesus’ words in John 6:44 and 65 where Jesus says, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 

 

You cannot come to the Eucharist and the Church unless the Father draws you.

 

I have seen many Christians not accept these things, you are not easily led.  In fact, I have come to the conclusion that you don't even hear God talk to you.  This is awful for you, because He is a loving friend and savior.  You should try to start praying and listening.  Become like Philip in Acts 8, 29.  When you start hearing the Lord speak to you, you will know which way to go.

 

I have to leave you now.  If you will not hear my voice, why do we talk?  You might as well debate the catechism that is in your room.  You don't need me to say anything to you, you don't want to listen to it.

 

Ben