Message # 855 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: heloisejmj
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:33 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
I thank you for your long post regarding the Inqusition, etc. As you can see, this whole area really bothers me for I see inconsistencies between what you have written and the words of Christ.
We can assume that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Throughout history the Church has NOT changed its position on the CENTRAL things to the Faith - those things spelled out in the Nicene/Apostle's Creed.
However, can we assume that everything the saints said/wrote is infallible? Is that a tenant of the Church?
Is there not room for enlightenment then? No room for the expansion of charity to others besides fellow Catholics? No room for an expanding role of women besides bearing children? No room for music, etc. of other cultures?
What did CHRIST advocate? What did HE say? What did HE do?
As a parent, I see the role of power. Yes, I can FORCE my children to do things. When they are young this is probably the best way to get them to do things - there is a BIG difference between you and them intellectually, etc. HOWEVER, when they are older POWER does not work - in fact, in works in reverse. Use your power and they will rebel. You need to use your AUTHORITY instead. You have to have them desire to do what you want.
Perhaps the use of power in the past was appropriate, I don't know. Most people were not educated and were illiterate. They travelled little, knew little of other cultures, etc. This is not the case today. Men AND women are educated. It is not just the clergy anymore that are literate and have education. The use of power nowadays seems counterproductive to me and the keeping of the laity in roles of extreme submission to the clergy is outmoded.
As this discussion goes further along, I can see why, coupled with the scandals of the clergy and the use of their power over others for their own satisfaction, the Reformation happened and why, throughout history, millions have hated the Catholic Church.
Perhaps the belief of the VatII church is that it is trying to remedy this breach and make up for its actions in the past and shifting NONESSENTIAL things to accomodate the changes in society?
As I said, I am studying this topic for I need to know the truth.
Message 856 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: heloisejmj
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:19 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Again, I am no theologian and admit to being a person who is a state
of spiritual examination...
God gave us free will. Even GOD does not use His power to convert
people to Christianity!!!
AND why didn't Christ use His power to convert? Why did He use His
love instead? Why did He teach the primacy of humility? Why did He
teach that in order to lead you must serve?
Message 857 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: "Maria Benedicta Gaetani" <pope_boniface_viii@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Personally I think that one of the biggest mistakes made was the abolition of the Holy Inqisition. When the the Holy Inquisition was around, heresy had a tough fight on its hands. Now the heretics get away with anything, and nothing is done to stop them. Never forget that the Holy Inquistion was HOLY. And it was supported by many popes and saints of the church. We need a new Inquistion and a new Crusade.
Message 862 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: heloisejmj
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
The only thing you can do to stop heresy is to live your life showing the joy you get from being a Catholic and to radiate Christ's love to others and to Our Lord.
People will then want what you have.
You cannot force anyone into being a Catholic - on paper, perhaps, but not in their souls.
Message 863 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: heloisejmj
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:29 pm
Subject: trust
What bothers me the most about the sedevacantist position (and I have never heard or read a good explanation with which I am yet satisfied) is - Why did God stop protecting His Church?
Given: God loves us. He wants our salvation and to be with Him in heaven.
Given: A Father who loves you, protects you. He does not lie to you.
Why, then, would He allow His OWN CHURCH to be defiled? He PROMISED us that we could trust His Church. WHY would He take back His promise?
The answer I have been given the most is that the TRUE (i.e. traditional) Church has not been defiled - that the VatII Church is not the true church.
I maintain that if He allows the Church of Rome and the POPE to be defiled, then He cannot be trusted, can He?
How can we trust Him if He doesn't keep His word?
Message 864 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: heloisejmj
Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:09 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Exactly what are the heretics getting away with? They are in the process of losing their souls and living in sin and are seperated from His Church and the sacraments.
Message 866 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: john hixson <tradite@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:51 am
Subject: Re: trust
God never promised us a life of no trials or tribulations. Did St. Paul feel he was no longer loved by God when he was stoned or imprisoned? What about when St.Peter denied Christ three times? What about when almost every Bishop
accepted the Arian heresy and only a few brave saints refused to go along? Even the Pope of that time signed a semi-heretical arian statement. God allows these trials to test us. We will endure. Jesus said nothing would destroy his Church but that doesn't mean it will not suffer. It is almost wiped out in some parts of the world like Northern Africa.
The devil has always attempted, by means of the heretics, to deprive the world of the Mass, making them precursors of the Anti-Christ, who, before anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy
Sacrament of the altar, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to the prediction of Daniel "And strength was given him against the continual
sacrifice" (Daniel 8:12D). --St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church
(1696-1787)
Message 867 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: john hixson <tradite@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:42 am
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Heretics also drag other peoples souls to hell which is why it is a sin not to oppose them.