The Goa Question

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Discussion on the Goa Question on the BigSoccer Forum

06 Jul 2004, 06:37 AM Message #9 By Kaushik

I am dumbfounded by such insinuation. Goa is very much at peace and is one of the most beautiful and frequented parts of India. Burning churches? I have never heard of anything like that (not in the recent decades at least).
08 Jul 2004, 03:34 AM #14 By Doc_Exec

goapride wrote: Excuse me. I get a little overexcited when it comes to Goa. I overexaggerated with the burning of the churches. They do not burn but instead destroy churches to replace them with temples. Not ordinary churches but 500 year old churches. Our churches. They tear them down with the claim that temples once existed upon that spot. They are not Indian churches for Indians to tear down. They are our churches. U crazy????????? I can understand that you are highly prejudiced and premeditated but have some decency and a sense of realism. Who told you that Indians tear down churches and replace them with temples? First of all, the is no conflict between Hindus and Christians in India, including Goa. They subsist peacefully. The only tension is between Hindus and Muslims as a result of Kashmir and the adjacency of terrorist states like Pakistan and Afganistan. The only thing that was torn down to erect a temple in place was the Babri Masjid, in the state of Uttar Pradesh, on December 6th 1992. That caused widespread condemnation of the incendiaries and the Indian government has prevented rebuilding of a temple at that site. No one has ever torn down any 500 year old church in India. Stop lying and trying to incite other people.

goapride wrote: The government refuses to allow Goans to preserve the Portuguese/Goan culture but instead flood Goa with Indian culture. So, the Goan government, elected by the Goans themselves, do not preserve Goan (which is their own) culture and expect to rule in Goa further by securing the votes from the Goans? Who are you trying to kid? People on BS are not all 12 year olds.

Has it ever occured to you that India is the largest democratic and secular country in the world? The government in Goa is selected by Goans themselves. Do you realize your daftness?

goapride wrote: The Fundacao Oriente is an organisation that attempts to preserve our culture. But their quest is frequently hampered by the endless threats from Hindu fanatics which the government refuses to do anything about them but instead surpresses the Oriente. What a liar! So the Goan government, selected by the Goans themselves, does not do anything to counteract the (imaginary) threats from the 'Hindu fanatics' and, in turn, suppresses the Organization trying to preserve Goan culture.

goapride wrote: True Goans have dwindled to a far minority in Goa with far more Goans living in Portugal, Canada, States, Africa and Australia. This is because they cannot live under the corrupt Indian rule. The Goans in India are 'false Goans' and the ones living outside of Goa are 'true Goans'? You are really an imbecile, and by the looks of it, the only one who is corrupt.

goapride wrote: Most Goans preferred the Portuguese government compared to the Indian one. Goa was a dependency not a colony. Goans had the same rights as the Portuguese in Lisboa. Undoubtedly the Portuguese still grant citizenship to those who's grandparents were born before 1961, to the true Goans. We never asked for India, India asked for us. This is not an attack on Indians or Hindus but rather a statement of opinion, my opinion and the opinion of countless other Goans. Peace? Maybe political peace, but no Goan can say that he or she is happy under Indian rule. This is not an attack on Indians or Hindus???? What do you mean? You are falsely debasing a country that endeavors to uphold the paragons of democracy and secularism and you say that you are not attacking anyone? The statement of your baseless opinions is a premeditated attack on a country and its citizens. Grow up. Go to school. Otherwise, you will into one of those ignorant, innumerate outlaws, who are viewed as the scums of the earth.
08 Jul 2004, 03:55 AM #15 Doc_Exec

freis wrote: The animals from India invaded Goa, Daman and Diu. Have some decency before you call others animals. These 'animals' make up more than 50% of Microsoft and IBM, rule the IT induatry and are the richest and most educated race in the UK.

freis wrote: Centuries before India existed has a state, portugal ruled those lands. In 1974 the people from Goa, Daman and Diu would have their their independence, but the indian animals illegally invaded our territory (fortunatly they had severe casualties). Centuries before India existed, Portugal ruled????

Where did you learn your history from? India existed much before Europe. Indian civilization is 6000 years old! Vasco da Gama discovered the sea route to India whereby he reached Goa. Christopher Colombus failed to find the sea route and reached America instead. I thought you'd know that. But it seems unusual things happen 'usually'.

freis wrote: Portugal will not forget the people from Goa, Daman and Diu. When you start fighting for your independence, we will be by your side. What will that sort of siding do? Goans will never fight for independence. They have no reason to. It is very peaceful and is one of the most visited places by Indians and Europeans.

Even if they did, hypothetically, how will they gain independence? What will Portugal's support achieve? India is a nuclear superpower. The only countries on earth who are more powerful that India are USA, Russia and China. Only by enlisting their support can India be defeated. Do you seriously think that is going to happen?
08 Jul 2004, 12:44 PM #17 goapride

Doc_Exec wrote: U crazy????????? I can understand that you are highly prejudiced and premeditated but have some decency and a sense of realism. Who told you that Indians tear down churches and replace them with temples? First of all, the is no conflict between Hindus and Christians in India, including Goa. They subsist peacefully. The only tension is between Hindus and Muslims as a result of Kashmir and the adjacency of terrorist states like Pakistan and Afganistan. The only thing that was torn down to erect a temple in place was the Babri Masjid, in the state of Uttar Pradesh, on December 6th 1992. That caused widespread condemnation of the incendiaries and the Indian government has prevented rebuilding of a temple at that site. No one has ever torn down any 500 year old church in India. Stop lying and trying to incite other people. Am I CRAZY?? Woah slow down buddy who are you kidding?? Wait hold on...are you Indian?? Are you Goan?? If not then you have no idea what you're talking about and you obviously know nothing and if you are that doesn't change anything you're still an idiot and you know nothing. Who told me indians tear down churches? I dont need anyone to tell me just read a Goan newspaper and you can find out for yourself. I believe it was in December that a priest was beaten up outside his church for refusing to let Hindu activists in to worship one of their 333 million deities. He was in hospital. You talk of famous incidents like the Babri Mosque. You know nothing about Goa. Take a trip down from Saligao to Mapca and you see churches that have no one to take care of it and roads isolating another....but yet Hindu temples come up every day newer and bigger. And yes it is a fact you ignoranamus that Hindu Activists headed by Mr. Bal Thackeray believe that churches are built on land on which temples first existed 500 years ago and yes they are petitioning to have certain churches torn down to be replaced by temples.

Doc_Exec wrote: So, the Goan government, elected by the Goans themselves, do not preserve Goan (which is their own) culture and expect to rule in Goa further by securing the votes from the Goans? Who are you trying to kid? People on BS are not all 12 year olds. Ahhh. Another ignorant remark. Elected by Goans? You mean the thousands that flood Goa everyday from the states of Maharashta, Karnataka and so on? Oh yes they are indeed true Goans (hope you can detect sarcasm) They are not Goans yet they vote and bring Hindu Nationalists in power who encourage even more immigration dwindling the Goans to a mere I believe the last number was rumoured to be 21% but I think it is higher.

Doc_Exec wrote: Has it ever occured to you that India is the largest democratic and secular country in the world? The government in Goa is selected by Goans themselves. Do you realize your daftness? So somebody give them a medal and a cookie for being the largest democratic and secular country in the world. It has nothing to do with Goa because seeing as it doesn't help all that much. And the government is not selected by Goans you are the one who's daft because you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

Doc_Exec wrote: What a liar! So the Goan government, selected by the Goans themselves, does not do anything to counteract the (imaginary) threats from the 'Hindu fanatics' and, in turn, suppresses the Organization trying to preserve Goan culture. Imaginary threats?? Once again a display of arrogance and again ingnorance. I believe it was less than a month ago threats were recieved by residents of roads with Portuguese names informing them to change their names to Indianized (read Hindu) names. They were out demonstrating in the streets. Priests have been threatened before, and the government is increasingly pressured to completely Indianize Goa.

Doc_Exec wrote: The Goans in India are 'false Goans' and the ones living outside of Goa are 'true Goans'? You are really an imbecile, and by the looks of it, the only one who is corrupt. You are the imbecile. The true Goans are the ones who can trace their parentage past the date of 1961 and/or even further. There are true Goans in Goa I never said there werent. But there are also the ones that have come in from neighbouring states. These are not the true Goans. And that is what I meant so who is the imbecile now? At least I know what im talking about which is more than I can say for you.

Doc_Exec wrote: This is not an attack on Indians or Hindus???? What do you mean? You are falsely debasing a country that endeavors to uphold the paragons of democracy and secularism and you say that you are not attacking anyone? The statement of your baseless opinions is a premeditated attack on a country and its citizens. Grow up. Go to school. Otherwise, you will into one of those ignorant, innumerate outlaws, who are viewed as the scums of the earth. It isnt an attack on them because I do have indian and hindu friends who know my views, whether they accept them or not. I am not debasing a country but rather the people and the government that do what they do to my homeland. Scum of the earth eh? I'll leave that one alone. All I'm doing is voicing my opinion, I dont go around calling people the scum of the earth.

Viva Goa
Viva Portugal 2006
08 Jul 2004, 06:31 PM #21 Doc_Exec

|--LdC--| wrote: Indonesia was also the biggest muslim nation in the world with 200 million people, Timor had 700 000 people...

When he says "Portugal rulled Goa long before India existed", he says that India didnīt existed as an unified nation, and that is the truth, most of India had several independent states, and the unified India is somewaht recent following the desire of Ghandi, that wasnīt complete, because Paquistan have teir own state for the muslims and even Bangladesh created their own state...[QUOTE=|--LdC--|]Obviously we canīt compare this cases with the Goan case, but the real truth is that India invaded Goa and the other former Portuguese colonies and if the people from this places wanīt to be independent they have all the legitimacy they need.
India did exist as a unified country under the Moghul rule for hundreds of years. However, there were certain regions that were not under the control of the Moghuls and these regions had local rulers. The British regime had full control over a unified India that consisted of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. This was in existence even before Gandhi was born. Gandhi did not want separation of India following the independence. But a dispute over presidency between Nehru and Jinnah culminated in the creation of a separated India. Thus, India was divided into two countries; India and Pakistan. Then Pakistan attacked the independent state of Kashmir. To save themselves, the Kashmiris joined India and India defeated the Pakistanis in the ensuing battle. Furthermore, Pakistan was further subdivided into Bangladesh and Pakistan in the 1970s.

I agree that India invaded Goa but have no knowledge of the context in which that occurred. I do not support such invasion from any country. But I do not think that Goa wants independence. I have never heard of that before. Moreover, you cannot compare Indonesia and India. Indonesia does not have the military strength and weaponry that India possesses and is not a major political player in the world, unlike India. Hence, I do not see how separation from India is possible so easily.
08 Jul 2004, 07:07 PM #22 goapride

So you now agree that India has invaded Goa and you do not support it. And here I am, a Goan, telling you that me and countless others who at your request I will ask to report on this forum if you like, completely support and desire Goan Independence, nevermind the countless Portuguese who still believe Goa to be Portuguese. So as you say you haven never heard of Goa wanting independence, well, you have heard it now. There are also various sites that support it as well as Yahoo groups on the web. And agreeably seperating from India will definitely not be easy.
08 Jul 2004, 07:50 PM #23 Doc_Exec

Listen buddy, you are so steeped in “Goan pride” that you are exaggerating intensely. Influx of people to Goa from other Indian states is inevitable. Goa is a part of India and Indians have the right to live anywhere they want to within India. You cannot complain about that. India cannot even stop mass immigration from the neighboring countries, how is it possible to stop Indians from settling in a place of their choice within India?

I do not think that you need to have lived in a place for more than 50 years to become a 'true' native of that place. I believe that you are in Canada. If you have the citizenship of Canada and have lived there for 20 odd years, how would you feel if somebody referred to you as a "false Canadian"? The people who live in Goa are Goans. And they select their own state Government. So why do you say that the government in Goa is not selected by Goans? The power in India is decentralized. The Federal (Central) government does not control the way Goa is to be governed.

Bal Thackaray and Temple building: Bal Thackaray does not have the power to bring down places of worship. His followers, the Shiv Sena, are not powerful enough to cause that kind of hooliganism consistently. You cannot stop anyone from building temples in their places of residence. How many Hindu and Buddhist temples do you find in other parts of the world? If Bal Thackaray wants to bring down a church to erect a temple, he must have collected proof that a temple was in place, which was torn down years ago by Portuguese settlers to erect a church. That was also unfair. However, that should not be the reason to commit another unfair deed. After all, two mistakes do not make a right.

Bottom line is that you are exaggerating far beyond verity. Minor religious skirmishes occur everywhere in the world. However, you make it sound as if there is a civil unrest in Goa. I have been in India for many years and have never heard of any crisis in Goa nor any cries for independence from Goans.
11 Jul 2004, 02:02 AM #24 goapride

Calm down Doc. Steeped in Goan Pride? Definitely. Before you get all worked up about the rights of so called Goan citizens here’s a hypothetical situation for you.

Millions of let’s say Russians emigrate to Portugal. Their numbers are always increasing. There are now more Russians than Portuguese in Portugal. The Russians demand that Russian be made an official language of Portugal. How would the Portuguese feel? This is the same in Goa with the Maharashtans demanding that Marathi be made an official language and declare Konkani to be a dialect of Marathi therefore making Marathi the ONLY official language of Goa. How do you think Goans feel? Now imagine that the emigrated Russians began holding demonstrations and ask that street names be changed to Russian names instead of Portuguese names? How do the Portuguese feel then or when they see the number of Orthodox churches now being to rival the number of Catholic churches and seeing the number of Catholics now dwarfed by the number of Orthodox Russians? When they see jobs been taken by the Russians that could have gone to jobless Portuguese? When the Prime Minister elected is chosen by the Russian majority instead of the Portuguese? Don’t talk about a situation you have no knowledge of. Do not come back and post the obvious differences between this hypothetical situation and Goa because I know that the situations are not completely exact but it provides an insight into what is happening and what COULD happen.

Second you say that being called a false Canadian and being called a false Goan is the same? I think not. Canada is made up of immigrants therefore every Canadian is equa and has the same right to be call Canadian as the next person. Goans are an ethnic people who have always inhabited Goa or rather for a very long time just like the Portuguese have inhabited Portugal and the Italians Italy. There is a difference. A big difference.

I say the government in Goa is not selected by Goans because the huge amount of non-Goans that inhabit Goa send the various candidates to power. A true Goan supported government would not be possible because of these votes.

Never heard of cries of Independence? Because the problems of separation in Goa is dwindled by the problems in Kashmir and the Khalistan movement. Believe you me, from a Goan, there are countless Goans who speak of the dream of a Goa without the control of India.

VIVA GOA
VIVA PORTUGAL 2006
11 Jul 2004, 04:24 AM #25 Doc_Exec

goapride wrote: Calm down Doc. Steeped in Goan Pride? Definitely. Before you get all worked up about the rights of so called Goan citizens here’s a hypothetical situation for you.

Millions of let’s say Russians emigrate to Portugal. Their numbers are always increasing. There are now more Russians than Portuguese in Portugal. The Russians demand that Russian be made an official language of Portugal. How would the Portuguese feel? This is the same in Goa with the Maharashtans demanding that Marathi be made an official language and declare Konkani to be a dialect of Marathi therefore making Marathi the ONLY official language of Goa. How do you think Goans feel? Now imagine that the emigrated Russians began holding demonstrations and ask that street names be changed to Russian names instead of Portuguese names? How do the Portuguese feel then or when they see the number of Orthodox churches now being to rival the number of Catholic churches and seeing the number of Catholics now dwarfed by the number of Orthodox Russians? When they see jobs been taken by the Russians that could have gone to jobless Portuguese? When the Prime Minister elected is chosen by the Russian majority instead of the Portuguese? Don’t talk about a situation you have no knowledge of. Do not come back and post the obvious differences between this hypothetical situation and Goa because I know that the situations are not completely exact but it provides an insight into what is happening and what COULD happen.
Just a little note for you to ponder because something escaped your mind. GOA IS A PART OF INDIA. If Russia conquered Portugal, then Russians could have done all of the above. But if Russians were immigrants in a foreign land then they could not have done so, as they would not be the owner of the land they inhabited.

goapride wrote: Second you say that being called a false Canadian and being called a false Goan is the same? I think not. Canada is made up of immigrants therefore every Canadian is equa and has the same right to be call Canadian as the next person. Goans are an ethnic people who have always inhabited Goa or rather for a very long time just like the Portuguese have inhabited Portugal and the Italians Italy. There is a difference. A big difference. First of all, the aboriginals in Canada can feel the same way as you. They were 'true' natives and have been marginalized in their own land. Second, people residing in Goa are INDIANS. Therefore, every resident of Goa should have equal rights, and therefore, the majority should decide the administration of the state.

goapride wrote: I say the government in Goa is not selected by Goans because the huge amount of non-Goans that inhabit Goa send the various candidates to power. A true Goan supported government would not be possible because of these votes. They are most importantly INDIANS. They are not immigrants.

goapride wrote: Never heard of cries of Independence? Because the problems of separation in Goa is dwindled by the problems in Kashmir and the Khalistan movement. Believe you me, from a Goan, there are countless Goans who speak of the dream of a Goa without the control of India. Bottom line is that, you cannot blame the Indians for anything done in Goa, as long as it is legal and ethical. If Goa was autonomous and 'immigrants' from Maharashtra would have flocked there and tried to uphold their culture side by side, you would have had reason to whine. Your whining does not make sense as you have the same right to go to Maharashtra and embrace your culture and no body can (or will) complain. This is because every citizen of India are INDIANS, who have equal rights in ALL PARTS OF INDIA.
11 Jul 2004, 04:54 AM #29 Doc_Exec

Frank Cunha wrote: he might have his reason, one of the reasons his family probably had to moved from Goa

In a way I'm learning a lot from this two guys, and they bringing attention to Goa and that's important, too bad we didn't have these kind of threads when we were fighting for freedom in East Timor
I wish Canadians had the same level of intolerance towards him as he has for Indians from other provinces.
11 Jul 2004, 10:24 AM #30 freis

When we reached India (a region, not a country) India was divided in lots of states. India as a unified independent state exists only after 1947. It is absurd to me that a country that only become unified after becoming a british colony, make claims on lands that belonged for centuries to another. And when I said that Portugal would probably support the people from Goa in a fight for independence, I was not talking about military support. Ever heard of East Timor?
11 Jul 2004, 10:36 AM #31 Kaushik

freis wrote: India as a unified independent state exists only after 1947. It is absurd to me that a country that only become unified after becoming a british colony, make claims on lands that belonged for centuries to another. If India became unified after becoming a British colony, why do you say that they became unified after 1947? British regime started in 1757. In 1947, India obtained independence from the British and was subdivided into India, Bangladesh and Pakistan.
11 Jul 2004, 11:08 AM #33 Kaushik

freis wrote: India become a unified INDEPENDENT state only after 1947. But India was unified before 1947 nevertheless. Not just during the British regime, but also during the Moghul rule. There were well demarcated borders that shielded India from neighboring countries. History says that, at one time, India consisted of Afganistan and Burma as well. It was probably a unification of states with decentralized power, according to the realms of the dynasties at the helm. After all, India existed as a fabled land where conquerors, explorers and tradesmen such as Alexander, Vasco da Gama, Christopher Colombus and the Mongols intended to disperse. They wanted to go to India, not any nonsymbiotic region within the vast expanse.
11 Jul 2004, 12:54 PM #34 goapride

By calling Goans Indians then the whole point of my argument is missed. Goans are not Indians that is what I have been trying to convey. Now I don't mean politically. It is the same with alot of people from Quebec who refer to themselves as Quebeceurs not Canadians. More and more Goans now refer to themselves as Goans not Indians, and believe me if you call yourself a Goan nowadays in multicultural Canada, they know what you mean. Goa is different from India, with a different culture. I refuse to acknowledge that Goa is a part of India simply because they did not ask us if Goa wanted to join India or not. India existed as a Union of States, Goa was never part of that. You yourself (doc exec) acknowledged that in one of your posts that India may have invaded Goa illegally. Therefore the people who moved from India to Goa are not Goans but Indians. The people of Goa are Goans not Indians. And even now the people who have moved to Goa are marked down as Migrants.

As for the Aboriginals of Canada, that is a different story and I completely support restoring Aboriginal heritage and Aboriginal rights.

As for the people referring to me as a false Canadian why would my fellow Canadians treat me differently when they too are immigrants and more over alot of them first generation immigrants while I was born here and raised here.

And for the others calling me narrow minded etc. back up your words with reasons like doc exec does otherwise shut your mouth and keep your opinions to yourself.

Thank you freis, LDC and frank cunha for supporting what is right and just.
11 Jul 2004, 01:00 PM #35 freis Kaushik wrote: But India was unified before 1947 nevertheless. Not just during the British regime, but also during the Moghul rule. There were well demarcated borders that shielded India from neighboring countries. History says that, at one time, India consisted of Afganistan and Burma as well. It was probably a unification of states with decentralized power, according to the realms of the dynasties at the helm. After all, India existed as a fabled land where conquerors, explorers and tradesmen such as Alexander, Vasco da Gama, Christopher Colombus and the Mongols intended to disperse. They wanted to go to India, not any nonsymbiotic region within the vast expanse. Even if you consider the Mughal empire as some sort of embryonic India the reality is that Goa was already part of the portuguese empire before the Mughal empire even existed. The history of the various people of India dosenīt begin in 1947 but the history of their nation as a indepent sovereign state does. India claims on the territories of Goa, Daman and Diu are very dubious. The people from Goa should had the right to chose if they wanted independence or to be integrated in India (and they would have had that choice after 1974, if India hadnīt illegally invaded those portuguese territories in 1961, or if India invaded them after they were granted their independence like Indonesia invaded East Timor). And to say that goans are indians is like saying that that the basques are spanish. They have spaniard written on their passports not because they are or want to, but because they had no choice.
11 Jul 2004, 06:48 PM #37 Kaushik

freis wrote: Even if you consider the Mughal empire as some sort of embryonic India the reality is that Goa was already part of the portuguese empire before the Mughal empire even existed. That is dubious as the Mughal empire existed since the 14th century. Vasco da Gama came to Calicut in 1498.

BTW, in 200 BC Goa was part of the kingdom of the great Indian king Ashoka. Dynasties Controlling Goa ~ 1st century BC to 1500 AD:
  • From the 2nd-4th century AD , the Scytho-parthians,
  • then from the 4th to 6th century, the Abhiras, Batpura, Bhojas;
  • next theChalukyas of Badami (6th to 8th century AD).
  • The Rashtrakutas of Malkhed(8th to 10th Century AD)
  • The Kadambas (1006 -1356AD).
  • After the Kadambas, Goa was ruled by the Yadavas of Devaguiri (modern Daulatabad) from the 12th to 13th century AD,
  • next the hindu Empire of Vijayanagar (14-15th century AD),
  • and later s a part of the Muslim Bahmani Kingdom of Deccan (15th century).
In 1492, the Bahmani Kingdom split into five kingdoms, namely Bidar, Berar, Ahmadnagar, Golconda and Bijapur. Bijapur was the capital of the territory which included Goa under Adil Khan.

Kadamba dynasty (with Goa as its capital) which ruled that region starting around the 10th century. "Goa", then primarily concentrated around the head of the Zuari river prospered as are result of a thriving sea trade with the arabs.

In 1347, Goa fell under the muslim kingdom of Bahamani. This resulted in the destruction of many hindu temples and was a foretaste of things to come under Portuguese rule. By 1378, Goa was retaken by a another neighbouring hindu kingdom of Vijaynagar, only to lose it yet again to the Bahamanis in 1470. The Bahmanis were superceeded by the kingdom of Bijapur (also muslim), which under their leader Adil Shah established a thriving new port further north at the head of the Mandovi river.

In 1510, the Portuguese fleet under Afonso Albuquerque landed in Goa, only to be driven out by Adil Shah (of Bijapur) a few months later. Finally, later that year, the Portuguese with reinforcements, finally usurped Goa (Ilhas region) from Bijapur. In an apparent reprisal for his earlier defeat, Albuquerque ordered the massacare of its muslim inhabitants.

Christinization of the Velhas Conquistas:
With the influx of the Portuguese, came their religion. Under Albuquerque's rulecommerce was the primary factor governing Portuguese policy in India. As a result, the Portuguese were initially quite tolerant of the hindu religion,(although not as tolerant of the muslims). From 1540 onwards, under the influence of the Counter Revolution in Europe and with the arrival of the Inquisition in Goa, Portugal's liberal policy towards the hindus was reversed. Many hindu temples were razed and churches built on them; while the few muslims that were there were dispersed or disposed of. The characteristic Portuguese names that many christian Goans have today, is to a very small extent due to inter-marriage between the Portuguese and local Indians. Rather, the converts, were forced to adopt a Portuguese name, usually that of the priest responsible for their conversion.

Empire in Decline:
By the mid 17th century, Goa's decline as a commercial port began to mirror the decline of Portuguese power in the East as a result of several military losses to the Dutch, the British and the Marathas.

One consequence of the British presence in Goa was the beginning of Goan emigration to Bombay, Poona, Karachi, Calcutta and various other parts of British India.

In 1900, Luis Menezes Braganza founded the first Goan Portuguese-language newspaper (the "O Heraldo") which he used to criticize Portuguese colonialism in Goa. With the ascension of the Salazar regime (ie. dictatorship) in Portugal in 1926, came a supression of Goan (and Portuguese) civil liberties. In 1928, Dr. Cunha founded the Goa National Congress which was linked with the Indian National Congress which was then fighting the British to reclaim Indian independence.

The British left India in 1947, while the French quit their tiny possesion of Pondicherri in 1954. The Portuguese, under the dictatorial Salazar refused to leave however. In 1961, the Indian army simply moved into Goa encountering little resistance. The Portuguese thus the first European colonial power to enter India, were also the last to leave.

Goan nationalists took the first opportunity to attack the Portuguese at its weakest point and succeeded without any fight. The United Front of Goans under the leadership of Mr. Francis Mascarenhas successfully drove the Portuguese out of Dadra on 24 July 1954; subsequently, the bigger territory of Nagar-Haveli with its capital at Silvassa was liberated by members of the Azad Gornantak Dal on 2 August. The Goan Liberation Movement, which for about eight years was dormant, suddenly got a great impetus and began to show signs of activity.

The Portuguese military and police not only lathi-charged the unarmed and non-violent satyagrahis but also opened fire on them. As a result, a number of satyagrahis were shot dead, hundreds were wounded, some of them seriously. The Portuguese forces resorted to firing without giving any warning. When the newspapers flashed the news of killings of unarmed satyagrahis, the whole of India was terribly shocked and extremely agitated.

Mr. Nehru and the Congress Party's stand of 'waiting and watching' caused much frustration in the people, until a seminar on Portuguese colonialism was held in New Delhi in October 1961 which, attended by representatives of foreign countries, especially of Africa, brought about a change in the thinking of Prime Minister Nehru. It was an epoch-making occasion. At the conclusion of the four-day seminar a mammoth public meeting was held in Bombay at which Mr. Nehru for the first time said: "We have to think afresh now because of the happenings in Goa; particularly in the last few months, cases of torture have come to our notice and the terror that is spread there by the Portuguese. When I say afresh, I mean that we have been forced into thinking afresh by the Portuguese to adopt other means to solve this problem. When and how we do it cannot be forecast now. But I have no doubt that Goa will soon be free." The statement of Mr. Nehru was received with thunderous cheers by the audience.

In spite of this Dr. Salazar was adamant and paid no attention to the representation made by both U.S.A. and Great Britain to settle the issue of Goa. And so Mr. Nehru had no alternative left but to launch military action on 18-19 December 1961 to liberate Goa. This was swift and met with little resistance from the Portuguese forces. When the army marched into Goa, the people welcomed it with shouts of joy: thus Goa rejoined Mother India.
From the above historical account, I do not see the reason for clamoring by the Goans. Goa was ruled by Indian kings before POrtuguese came and conquered it. The Goans wanted liberation from the Portuguese regime and India delivered them independence and acquired its land back.
11 Jul 2004, 06:59 PM #38 Doc_Exec

The problem is that, the marriages between the Portuguese and the Indians resulted in offsprings who were forced to adopt Portuguese culture. When Goa was liberated by India, these semi-Portuguese progenies were neither taken to Portugal, nor could they survive the re-influx of Goa's cultural past.

Such whinning from these Goans is similar to the hypothetical situation that would result if the offsprings of British-Indian wedlocks wanted a separate state in India or if the French progenies wanted an independent Pondicherry. Claims for independent Goa does not make any sense really because it is baseless and cannot be backed up by history or current affairs.
11 Jul 2004, 07:25 PM #39 Doc_Exec

If you read the historical account posted by Kaushik earlier you would realize that Goa was always a part of India until the Portuguese moved in. It seems that Goans, under the oppression faced from their Portuguese rulers, wnted liberation. It is not clear if they wanted India to evict the Portuguese from Goa, but truly speaking, they had no other way of gaining independence, as the USA and UK could not help them. As for India, it seems that they waited non-violently for many years for the situation to resolve. Since that did not happen, they had to apply force. I cannot comment on the legality of that, nor on the legality of the oppression by the Portuguese on the Goans. As for India not asking Goans if they wanted to be part of India or not after independence, many reasons can be forwarded. Goa was always a part of India and thus they did not feel the need to. Goans might have agreed to join their emancipators wilfully or at least, they did not resist. World opinion was not against Indian accession in Goa etc. Also, why should a country that has conquered a region, simply give it away? Has any country been that charitable before? Hence, there can be various perspectives. From a neutral point of view, I do not see any difference in India evicting the British and the Portuguese. Britsh came and conquered India. They were evicted later. Same thing was done to the French and the Portuguese. The Dutch were not allowed to settle in the first place by the other Europeans. Since the Portuguese came much earlier and could conquer only a small part of India, it is natural that their cultural influence has been much stronger, but limited to that part only. Since the Portuguese were not as strong as the British, they could not disperse their culture to the surrounding region. There lies the problem. Whereas most of the country had a similar influence on their culture from the British, a small part of it was shielded from that influence and that part found it difficult to blend with the rest after gaining independence.
11 Jul 2004, 07:40 PM #40 freis

The mughal empire was founded in 1526, Portugal conquered Goa en 1510. And the text you posted is a joke. It is so biassed that it dosenīt hold any credibility. If you can extract anything about that text is that India, when Portugal took Goa, was not a nation, but like I said, a region with lots of different kingdoms and different people.
11 Jul 2004, 07:48 PM #41 freis

The point is, when Portugal took Goa, India was not a country.
12 Jul 2004, 09:21 AM #42 |--LdC--|

Obviously makes sense, because when you talk about marriages between Portuguese and Indians, you could also talk about marriages between Indians and Muslims coming from the west, from Persia, Arabia etc etc, because muslims reached to India by land and by sea, and impose their values also, like the Portuguese did.

The muslim religion is somewhat new compared with Christianism and even more with Hinduism, so the muslims from India created their own state in the last century, and this brought movements of something like 15 million people from all India to the new state of Pakistan, they were also Indians but they choose to live in a nation independent from India.

The people in Goa are also Indians because they live in an region called India, when the Portuguese reached India this people turned with time in Portuguese, obviously they were diferent from the Portuguese from Portugal, but they were considered Portuguese, until now many Goans are considered Portuguese all the Goans that were born in Goa until 1961 can have Portuguese nationality if they want, also the first generations, the second and the third generations i think.

But the point is that Goans felt that they created their own culture and values, because with the mix of Indians and Portuguese something new emerged, the Goan culture, despite the methods that make this happen the truth is that people have in our days a culture somewhat diferent than the rest of the people living in the nation we today call India.

Only the true Goans can decide their future, so i think if the Goans are interested in having an independent nation its up with them to fight for their rights, like it happen in East-Timor and like is happening everywere in Indonesia, Indonesia was only a state created to regrup thousands of islands with millions of diferent people with diferent values, religions and culture.
19 Jul 2004, 10:14 PM #58 Doc_Exec

El Ardillo wrote: after having read through this thread, its safe to say that...

...i have no idea whats going on.
Instead of furthering their education, certain intolerant knaves are trying to commune their toxic messages across in Portuguese. Such people complain of not getting jobs. Funny!
19 Jul 2004, 10:28 PM #59 Kaushik

Even though I do not approve of vexations, I can understand when Climax and the others speak of lack of education being the cause of not getting jobs. These intolerant individuals sound like the Italians from New York. The Italians almost started rioting against the Hindus in New York as they kept losing their jobs to the Hindus. However, the simple fact is that Indians are far more educated and technically skilled. It is obvious that a for profit organization will employ more educated individuals. If the Goans concentrated on educating themselves, they too would be employed, as multinationals do not employ individuals based on caste or creed, but education and skill.
19 Jul 2004, 10:38 PM #60 Doc_Exec

Yeah, you're right. I am a doc at the University of Toronto's Faculty of Dentistry. Most students at our faculty are either Indians or Chinese. It is the same in the USA and the UK. One cannot fault a race for being more educated and skilled and "taking jobs away" and "making life difficult for others". It is a competitive world. These supposedly Goan posters should be better off getting educated than revealing their narrow-mindedness 24X7.
20 Jul 2004, 01:19 AM #61 El Ardillo

thats like the "white-american ladies" hate my mom b/c she manages to cook and bake fantasic stuff all the time, hold a job down, volunteer at church and what not. she is gossiped by all b/c they say she is a complete busy body.

is it her fault she's a good "matka polska"?

hey, i say this, if you hate another race b/c they are taking over, dont let them. if they want their jobs, go back to school, get ur degree. that might not be good enough for the ppl that complain that white ppl built this country. maybe they did, but its the cheap working immigrants that make it better.

either way, america's economy is in a pickle. its too service oriented. we get anything wrong with the global balance of power and control will shift back over to asia and europe. look at the eu, germany is a huge industrial power, so is france, japan, and china. the fact that oil prices are going up is solely due to the fact that china wants to develope thweir economy.

my dad always says that ppl in america are getting fatter, older, and less happier. itys true, and once someone takes away our comfy thrown of world power america will be history.

my idea is learn what you can, anything that you know is something that you can use. also, i trust in god. (if you dont believe in god, thats too bad, trust yourself then)

btw, lol, i've made 2 speeches tonight...
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