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4. Hindutva conversation with Mani. 3. Stressing the point. 2. Oh India. 1. Science and God - a conversation. |
4. Hindutva conversation with Mani.
Following is a discussion with Mani that came as a result of a fwded mail of questions that, in my opinion, fans out fanatism.
-----Original Message-----
From: Manikandaraja V (He's a s/w engr in Chennai)
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 12:13 PM
To: Prabhakar S.
Subject:
Hi Prabha
Ur concept Holds good theoretically, but if everybody is gonna think the same way, there vud be no crime, no anti social elements and all vud be Mahatmas , Bertrand Russells and Karl Marx up here.
[Prabhakar S. ] Nobody expected everybody could be Mahatmas. But it is still possible for everybody to live as a normal human being without cheating, humiliating others within the limits of our social setup. That is the minimal expectation.
I may not have right to point my fingers over other religions and as u said am not that attracted by this mail, but some points makes sense, but am free to speak about the things happening around me.
[Prabhakar S. ] Yes. That is what the difference between echoing your voice and aiming a Thrishul at a fellow man.
See, i can be a philanthropist, but not at the cost of my self dying in starvation. Do u think whatever u said ,people vudn't 've thought before??. What u speak ur Fundamental Human ethics. There vud be ZERO chaos in this real world ,if people stick to it. In our country the politicians wanna make a fool outta people by saying all these craps like Muslim minorities and all those stuff. Basically Hindus r the minority ones. I guess we shudn't manipulate things with respect to India. if something is gonna happen in other country, that also hampers my country right (Directly or indirectly).
Every religion has its own core values. Instead of thinking in Intellectual terms if u r gonna think about it in layman terms, its pretty ordinary for somebody to stick to his religion and many a times it gets driven by people from other religions (positively or negatively). When Foreign Christian missionaries can raise a hell lotta money to spread their religion (In the sense people getting converted) What the hell a poor Hindu can do when he doesn't have any support or source and when i don't have my next day food for my family, Obviously if somebody just wants to give me life at the cost of my religion, I don't mind as far as i don't commit any gr8 offense. Why do u think a a hell lotta Nadar people got converted to christians, when his grandfather name is Velmurugan ,His name is Walesking now.Do u think every body does it by the passion they got for that religion. It all depends upon my upbringing ,the society i move with and where i get my influence from.
[Prabhakar S. ] You are right. Actually I am echoing somebody's opinion. People have thought about this right from ancient times. I am just making myself aware to it and reflect myself with it. Fear of Hindus becoming minority shows the belief in that religion but this fear is unnecessary. Believing in a religion and doing things to grow it among people in a constructive manner is not harmful. Lets assume there is a sports competition among all the religions in the world. All competing with their own strength. There is a well built athlete with good background and an ordinary athlete from a poor nation with core skills alone.
Here the competition is between the core values and money. If the core values win they are superior. If money wins a religion then religion becomes powerless to cope up with an ordinary man's life. The religion failed to feed him, make him to live an ordinary life. Money won there (in the name of religion). Hence money has become the new 'God' now. How much are you sure that the same person would not change back his religion for a better money. If somebody could buy your religion with their money then it is not their fault, it is your own religion's incapability. If you think beyond religion, you could understand that in this modern world religion is loosing its strength over money. Because money is the life-giving-vitamin in this modern world. So my suggestion would be, to leave all religions and join the 'money' religion. If somebody buys your religion from a person then you pay them back to get back it. That is the political rule of it. But remember, all these are games because religion is a built-up system by human being to live an orderly life.
Near Madurai (Keezhakarai) there was a village of 7 families and so politicians ignored them for their basic needs just coz they don't have a gr8 vote bank up there. So When they need their basic stuff for their family ,when somebody is gonna offer them that ,they got converted to Muslims. So the crux is poverty (initiating factor) and then only all the craps come next. U can't expect a guy who lost his family in Godhra to be secular and tell him all the ande ka fundas and even i can't be secular at that point of time. The books may sound inducing when we read it and we get passionate about it. But at the end of day what really matters is How long that passion is gonna persist. Its not people's fault. We forget things with time.
am not against any religion ,but i can't expect everybody to be like that.
[Prabhakar S. ] We are discussing about this not because we are victims of any such clashes. We discuss it to not become such a victim in the coming future. It is easy to take a weapon on hand, but difficult to drop it.
So what a layman mind can think is if everybody can stick to their own caste, religion and cherish it when a unison is needed, Why shudn't I stick to mine and also they get obsessed or passionate with their religion due to external factors. (May be from other religions sometimes).
"Everybody will accept the points you have said even i agree with it, But it is like nothing more than a page in a History book (Way of life). And when it comes to action whom do u think has to do all these things. Who is gonna ban all these Hamaas Activists, Maoists, Hisbul Mujahideens, Bajrang dhals and whatever left. It can't be done.
[Prabhakar S. ] Who knows; If suppose a future PM's (Prime Minister) name is Manikandaraja, then probably he would be able to ban all these things. :-)
Am not trying to give any pessimistic thoughts. But practically speaking at this scenario, u can just stop things from getting aggravated and it vud be easier if everybody is gonna play a low key. And there r much more grounds to cover in whatever issues r there and it can be resolved only by talks which vud also cost time"
[Prabhakar S. ] You are double right here. Talks. If good heart is there, then talks would solve most of the problems on issues.
"Everybody have there own justifications (right or wrong) for their actions and we can't just poke around"
[Prabhakar S. ] You are double wrong here. It is true that everybody has their own justifications about everything they do. But that does not mean he/she should not care about the society he lives. If whatever you do is affecting a third person in some way then you should be responsible for the outcomes of the other person's reactions too. Whether it is good or bad doesn't matter. The society is built out of conflicting structures like Good and Evil, Higher and Lower etc... Whenever these conflicting structures meet there would be issues. It is on our hand to whether to make it a issue solved by knowledge or a blood shedding war field.
ciao
Mani
-----Original Message-----
From: Prabhakar S.
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:26 PM
To: Manikandaraja V
Subject: Re: Are you a Secularist?
Mani, I do not know whether you are attracted by these questions or not. If you want to charge a
Muslim on his/her religious concepts then you should be a Muslim first; should have lived like a Muslim;
For any person trying to question the religion which he does not belong to, the answer is, "None of your
business". This is applicable for criticisms on every religion. Basically religion is a system built on the people's
belief. Every religion is like that. Every religion has its own plus and minus things. But no religion suggests to ill-
treat the other fellow religious man. When religion mixes up with power and politics then the danger is
unimaginable. Right from Islamic terrorists to Shiv Sena terrorists it is evident all over the world. All these
questions below are politically motivated questions (from who? you know obviously).
There are obviously clashes between two different races, communities, religious groups all over the world, all
over the history. The thing is who tries to fan this up and gain power on situations, wins. If you think on the
issue by standing on a particular side of the community, race or religion than you can't solve the problem. You'll
become a part of the problem. You have to be a secularist, humanist. Otherwise you can't be a judge for
yourself. See my answers below (in blue).
Remember, If a similar set of questions comes from an Islamic fundamentalist group then my answers would
be on the same line. A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist; whether Hindu or Muslim or Christian. It doesn't
matter.
Are you a Secularist?
Then please answer these questions for yourself
There are nearly 52 Muslim countries.
Show one Muslim country where Hindus are extended the special rights that Muslims are accorded in India?
Ans: How many countries in the world declared themselves as 'secular' (which is great) as our India does?
Show one country where the 85% majority craves for the indulgence of the 15% minority.
Ans: This is a very old (Nazi) type of concept where Hitler warned Germans the same 'indulgence' of
Jews(10%) against Germans(85%). Do you know what was the result of such attitude?
Show one Muslim country, which has a Non-Muslim as its President or Prime Minister.
Ans: Then what the hell is the greatness/difference of calling yourself 'secular'?
Show one Mullah or Maulvi who has declared a 'fatwa' against terrorists.
Ans: How many news papers, magazines are printing on the headlines, the speeches of Muslim Moulvis everyday?
Hindu-majority Maharashtra, Bihar, Kerala, Pondicherry , etc. have in the past elected Muslims as CM's, Can you ever imagine a Hindu becoming the CM of Muslim - majority J&K?
Ans: How many of us know that most of the people in J & K wanted to be their own country? And how many of us know that Nehru was the one who screwed up their trust on India? Our president Abdhul Kalam is a Christian or what?
Today Hindus are 85%. If Hindus are intolerant, how come Masjids and madrasas are thriving? How come Muslims are offering Namaz on the road? How come Muslims are proclaiming 5 times a day on loud speakers that there is no God except Allah?
Ans: Nobody said Hindus were intolerant; Everybody says BJP, RSS, Bajrang Dal were. Do you ask yourself why?
When Hindus gave to Muslims 30% of Bharat for a song, why should Hindus now beg for their sacred places at Ayodhya, Mathura And Kashi?
Ans: 'Beg'; 'their sacred places' are two questionable terms in this twisted question. Better read history. Did we really beg? (Or is this what you call 'saathveeg'?)
Why Temple funds are spent for the welfare of Muslims and Christians, when they are free to spend their money in any way they like?
Ans: How far this is true? Do you know there is a "Hindu Aranilayathurai" a separate department to manage Hindu temples?
When uniform is made compulsory for school children, why there is no Uniform Civil Code for citizens?
Ans: Why the hell are you a secularist which nobody in this world claims to be? Very simple observation of secularism is to respect individual religion's customs. Why does it matter to you whether a person from some religion marries 4 times or not? If somebody from a religion demands justice outside their religion then the law should give it.
In what way, J&K is different from Maharashtra, TamilNadu or UttarPradesh, to have Article 370?
Ans: Do you know Article 370 was the eye wash given to J&K people who were dreaming to build their own nation. Who are India or Pakistan to decide their fate. Kashmir people were never allowed to decide their own fate.
Why Gandhiji objected to the decision of the cabinet and insisted that Somnath Temple should be reconstructed out of public fund, not government funds. When in January 1948 he pressurized Nehru and Patel to carry on renovation of the Mosques of Delhi at government expenses?
Ans: If you don't want to be secular, then you don't understand Gandhi's gesture.
Why Gandhi supported Khilafat Movement (nothing to do with our freedom movement) and what in turn he got?
Ans: He got bullets on the chest by an Hindu fanatic who belonged to RSS and died. They killed him because they thought he is a 'traitor'. What do you think? Is he a traitor? ( for such reasons asked in the previous question?)
If Muslims & Christians are minorities in Maharashtra, UP, Bihar etc., are Hindus not minorities in J&K, Mizoram, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya etc? Why are Hindus denied minority rights in these states?
Ans: By now you would have understood that J&K was not meant to be a state when it was accessed by India. It was meant to be a nation. Not a state. Do you understand the difference?
Do you admit that Hindus do have problems that need to be recognized? Or do you think that those who call themselves Hindus are themselves The problem?
Ans: No Hindu go and shouts at the public place that he is a Hindu. Because it is not necessary of him. Because being a Hindu is a way of life. It mingles with his daily life. He prays when he needs to. He calls for the God of his own(right from Lord Shiva to local Madurai Veeran).
(Though local Madurai Veeran was once not considered as Hindu) Now who prays him is a Hindu. So as such No Hindu has any problems. The problem is with the people who call themselves as the 'protectors' of Hindus.
Why post - Godhra is blown out of proportion, when no-one talks of the ethnic cleansing of 4 lakh Hindus from Kashmir?
Ans: Who did not speak? The question is twisted by saying 'blown out of proportion'; how do you say it is blown out of proportion? Is it by the counts of deaths that happened? No, it is not. It mainly due to the manner the incident and the aftermaths of Godhra. 'Ethnic cleansing' is not a single incident. Recently saw an article on 'terrorism in Kashmir' and '2002 Gujarat violence' in wikipedia. Pls do read.
In 1947, when India was partitioned, the Hindu population in Pakistan was about 24%. Today it is not even 1%. In 1947, the Hindu population in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) was 30%. Today it is about 7%. What happened to the missing Hindus? Do Hindus have human rights?
Ans: Neither Pakistan nor Bangladesh are doing better than India. Both countries have lots of problems, lots of internal struggles, terrorist movements within their countries itself. Compared to these two countries India consists of very diverse kind of people living 'together'. But if you compare the peaceful life of people in these countries, India is 100% far better than these two countries in the life standard of people. How this happened do you think? Only because India is a secular country.
Moreover the question asks about 'Hindus' human rights'. All over the world human rights organizations are there. There is no separate movement for Hindus human rights or Muslim human rights. All belong to human category only. So if anywhere in the world human rights are violated then these organizations bring them to light. There is no prejudice between humans.
In contrast, in India, Muslim population has gone up from 10.4% in 1951 to about 14% today; whereas Hindu population has come down from 87.2% in 1951 to 85% in 1991. Do you still think that Hindus are fundamentalists?
Ans: No 'XXX' are fundamentalists (where 'XXX' is Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Jains, Jews...etc). People are people everywhere (becuase they don't circulate such mails). It is all 'who' wants somebody to believe somebody as fundamentalists. These 'who' are keen on acquiring power. They are in every religion. (They are in your religion too). Do you identify these politicians/ fundamentalists/ racists in your religion?
Do you consider that - Sanskrit is communal and Urdu is secular, Mandir is Communal and Masjid is Secular, Sadhu is Communal and Imam is secular, BJP is communal and Muslim league is Secular, Dr.Praveen Bhai Togadia is ANTI-NATIONAL and Bhukari is Secular, VandeMatharam is communal and Allah-O-Akbar is secular, Shriman is communal and Mian is secular, Hinduism is Communal and Islam is Secular, Hindutva is communal and Jihadism is secular, and at last, Bharat is communal and Italy is Secular?
Ans: Sanskrit, Urdu, Tamil, Hindi etc.. are just languages. Don't you know that?
A Mandir that speaks about respecting fellow human is secular. A Majid that speaks about killing a fellow human is communal. A 'Sadhu' who does not climb up a building to destroy it could be secular. An Imam who preaches about destructing a Hindu temple is communal. And BJP is definitely communal. If Muslim league has a youth wing that goes on a killing-spree on command then definitely Muslim league is communal. Both Togadia and Bhukari are communal. If Allah-O-Akbar is sung before the murdered dead body of an innocent man then it is communal. No religion is secular whether it is Hinduism or Islam or whatever. They are just religions. It is the people who follow these religions, who can be secular. 'Hindutva' is the concept of BJP hierarchy. 'Hindutva' is not Hinduism. So 'Hindutva' is not a religious concept. It is a political concept of religion. And finally nobody said Bharath(India-Indians) are communal. Everybody says Bajrang Dal is communal, togadia is communal, Al-Umma is communal, Bin laden is communal etc.
When Christian and Muslim schools can teach Bible and Quran, Why Hindus cannot teach Gita or Ramayan ?
Ans: Can't they teach Gita? Really? Ask the Hindu missionary schools about this. They will tell you the opposite is true.
Abdul Rehman Antuley was made a trustee of the famous Siddhi Vinayak Temple in Prabhadevi, Mumbai Can a Hindu - say Mulayam or Laloo - ever become a trustee of a Masjid or Madrasa?
Ans: Some Raja Ram could be a trustee of some Masjid or Madrasa. May not be famous like Laloo or Mulayam or Siddhi Vinayak Temple..
Dr. Praveen bhai Togadia has been arrested many times on flimsy grounds. Has the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid, Delhi, Ahmed Bhukari been arrested For claiming to be an ISI agent and advocating partition of Bharat?
Ans: "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."; "remarkable restraint under grave provocation"; These were your Dr.'s responsible statements after the incident as a Chief Minister.
When Haj pilgrims are given subsidy, why Hindu pilgrims to Amarnath, Sabarimalai & Kailash Mansarovar are taxed?. A Muslim President, A Hindu Prime Minister and a Christian Defence Minister run the affairs of the nation with a unity of purpose. Can this happen anywhere, except in a HINDU NATION - BHARATH?
Ans: According to Islamic religion the person should go for a pilgrimage on his own. I ask you the same above question. Can this happen anywhere except in India? How it happened? Is it because we are all Hindus? Or Is it because we are all secular?
Please forward it to as many Indians as possible
Do forward this with these answers.
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3. Stressing the point
3. Stressing the Point
23-Jun-2004
Yesterday among the news of 'BJP to continue its Hindutva path', 'Imran divorced his wife Jemina after 9 years of marriage' and european soccer
series there was this news about the 'Beheading of a South Korean youth named Kim Sun-il, age 33 by Iraqi terrorists'.
All mass media and news agencies of world spreading the news from Alzazeera TV. Kneeling the victim in the front four terrorists were standing behind him covering their faces. One of them were reading from a paper "We warned you, but you refused," one of the kidnappers said, reading from a written statement. "We had warned you, and this is what you brought upon yourselves. Enough lying and deceit. Your army is here not for the Iraqi people but for the damned America.". And later the beheaded Kim was found on the outskirts of Baghdad. Earlier the same TV broadcasted a plea from the victim Kim to his government asking to withdraw the forces sent by South Korea. But the government did not respond to his plea.
The incident created shock wave throughout South Korea. The victims family were crying on the TVs. It is a tragedy that happened. Though it is not a welcoming act it surely made its point on the South Korean people. Irrespective of the ruling government's statements about continuing to send forces to Iraq and the US president's condemn statement "Barbaric"..."The free world cannot be intimidated by the brutal actions of these barbaric people," the shock wave created would make the South Korean people to think over literally on their government's decision on sending forces to Iraq.
In this modern world people tend to see and forget things as they switch between channels on TV. Everybody has their own worries to worry for. Nobody cares much what happened on a remote country by some policy taken by the government they chose to rule them. But this dramatic act would not make them to move away as easily as a news of ' nine SK army men dead by a suicide bomber' which was merely a count and objective.
Why? Because it involved the South Korean people in the act. A capture; A plea; an announced reason; and a punishment. Not just a bomb explodes. It showed in a way terrorists are not some mad people who born out of thin air and do irrational things without any reasoning at all. Everybody watches as US President addresses the TV and listens and comprehends what he is saying. Now they also had to listen to some terrorists words and listen to them and comprehend them what they are coming to say.
Still the mass cannot judge what the Good and the Evil are and what are they doing. But they are made to listen to the so called The Evil too. They might reconsider on their preconceived notions of the Good and Evil too.
Lot of terrorist movements do not understand the blunder they make. Most of them are Islamic terrorist groups. They just like that bomb a bus, or railway station or any public place and kill hundreds of common people. Common people do not know anything about who these terrorists are, what their demand is and why did they do this and who they want to affect ?..
These terrorist organizations lack their view on 'target' too. Their target should be the goverment official or the military or the forces or the leaders of Govt they fight. Instead they target ordinary civilians, abduct them or bomb them whereas And how these terrorists expect the common people would try to understand their 'fight for freedom' ? I don't understand.
For me the world is not going towards a better place. I got no hopes at all.
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2. Oh India!
---------Fwd Msg : Oh! India.-------------------------------------------
From : Jana (Jana is a Manager in a leading shutters company in TamilNad).
Subject : Oh! India.
HOW TRUE !
This mail is not against Indian cricketers or cricket... but thought provoking and is worth fwding....
After loss against New Zealand, India is back to normal with people still hoping for a miracle. In a way it was good that we lost and people now have come out of their craze for arguably most overrated, overpromoted and overpaid team and are paying attention to real issue.
There is a war on in Kashmir and India has lost 51 soldiers and officers. They are fighting at a height of 17000 ft. It is -5 to -30 C in inclement weather there. The intruders, 80% of whom are pak army soldiers, are at the top of mountain and our brave soldiers are actually climbing those mountains with rope against the fire.
Some figures that may shock you:
An Indian air force flight leiutanant is paid Rs.1200 flying allowance per month and he is supposed to make 40 sorties in aging Migs. That is about Rs. 25 per sortie after taxes. If he dies his family gets paid Rs. 2 lakh.
The man of the match in any World Cup team gets 3000 pounds, about Rs. 2.1lakhs. When flying over Kargil at 18000 ft he is just 1000 ft above intruders armed with american stringer missiles and can easily be shot down. Yet, they do it. Nachiketa who returned from Pakistan captivity will be back for action this week.
And they do this for whom?
A person has offered 111 coconuts and intends to offer 10001, yes ten thousand one more. A large corporate and BJP local unit offered prayer at Sidhivinayak temple and distributed prasad. A youth in Gujarat is on fast.
No, none of the above is for Indian soldiers, its for India's win in World Cup.
I am sure, you are aware as to how important is life of a US marine. If 5 of them lose lives, all newspapers in US cry as if world war has started. There are stories of their families and how they curse US government. Fl. Lt. Ahuja was killed in cold
blood and he was cremated by his four year old son. The head line in times was about India's win over England. And our team can not make 4 runs in 7 balls against Zimbabwe. And people in India or Indian people across the world still worry about their performance. We, the intelligent educated elite have failed this country.
The least Indian cricket team can do is win the game against pakistan and send all the reward and match fee to army relief fund.
The least you can do is forward this mail to every Indian.
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From : S. Prabhakar (That's me!)
Subject : Re : Oh! India.
Hi Jana,
Read the forwarded mail by you and I assume that your views also inclined positively to it.
But there are lot of things to be watched carefully in this mail.
First cricket is a sports game. Kargil war is a political game. Author compares this too and by that tries to justify the morality and greatness of the Kargil war.
The motive of sports used to be to generate good will at both ends. Now it turns out to be a commerical advertisement stage and emotionally playable political stunt. That is the only bad aspect of the cricket mania here. (Politically playing it against Pakistan is also bad).
But Kargil war is different. In this mail, Kargil war is portrayed as a symbol of sacrifice fought by our great Indian Soldiers(Who raped all the women they caught in kashmir and when sent to Srilanka as a 'peace keeping' force). The columnist is so worried about the families of the flight pilots wives who are going to be widows if the pilot slipped (but he and our Indian govt is not worried about the corruption on the coffins of dead kargil soldiers).
It is not true that Kargil solders are great heroes. But they are tragic heroes who died in vain for the political game of two governments. Kargil Heroes are not only in India. Pakistan also plays the same tactics and there also lots of Kargil Heroes. Who is the real hero then?
There is a Indian soldier who fires a missile and at the other end there is a Pakistan soldier who fires an anti-missile (or missile that Indian soldier encounters with an anti-missile) to destroy the missile/anti-missile. The strange thing we forget to notice is that the missile and anti-missile both are made in USA.
One more dangerous line in this I found was the suggestion to the Indian team to win the game against Pakistan.
What this line implies is a lot of things.
The game between India and Pakistan is compared indirectly with a war. That is you dont see a game but you see a war. When you are at war you are emotionally tuned to your country's side and importantly you are at 200% hatred towards the opponent country. This single line of statement contains the dangerous seeds of communalistic hatred.
Unfortunately our Prime Minister, President and Vice Prime Minister and all below them are echoing such feelings by their day to day political statements. Alternatively Pakistan also has to play with the same card that our people drop.
The literate Hindu people in India has to read between the lines carefully whatever the media and their religious leaders say. Otherwise they will end up with bloody hands, full of Islamic blood. Already they started soaking their hands in willingly.
We need to discuss a lot in this regard becos it is a question of peace now.
rgds,
s prabhakar.
What we Think, What we Know, Or What we Believe is, in the end, Of little consequence. The only consequence is What we Do.-John Ruskin. The grand essentials of Life are Something to do,Something to love and Something to hope for.-Accan K Chalmers.
All Great things are easy and simple. - Alfred Einestein.
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From : P. Kannan (Kannan is a software technological advisor living in California)
Subject : Re: Oh! India.
Hello Prabhakar,
Disclaimer: This is my opinion only. If you disagree, that is fine and shoot me an email with your points.
I consider, I have the right to suppport any team I choose. Most of the time, I support Indian cricket team. I do not have a problem if someone from India supports Pakistan team also. I do not understand why someone judges the act of breaking 1001 coconuts for an Indian victory. We all do many things which others may or may not agree.
Media hype over games exists all over the world. When compared to "soccer fans" in Europe and South America, acts of cricket fans in Inda is nothing.
Let us leave the arguement over cricket for a moment. Your email states that India "ACTS" and forces Pakistan to "REACT". Even your view about Kargil war also, tries to find some sympathy for Pakistan. Even if they have "tragic" or "true" heroes on their side, why do I care about them. Even if the political leaders in India hate Pakistan, how come that is considered against Muslims. As for as the Kargil war soldiers are considered, I do not want to mix the rape in Kashmir and Srilanka and the war in Kargil here. I agree with you that Army has done wrong things in other areas. That does not mean that I can applaud their killings in Kargil. Just because, few(may be a lot) poice are doing wrong things, we can not afford to close all the Police statations. When we have a problems in a system, we should try to fix that rather than removing the system. How can you compare the victim's family's problem and a corruption act in the army in the same page. Even in USA, not all people agree with their government about their foreign policy. Infact, so many people are against War. However, when it comes to mourning or appreciating the life of a marine, they hardly have any differences.
I personally think, a lot of so called "secularists" in India, in the name of trying to protect minorities are trying to dictate what majorities should and should NOT do. I have a major problem with that.
Regarding the columnist's view about how much a soldier and cricketer is making? That is CRAP. That's how life goes. How can you justify, Rajinikant making crores of
ruppees where as farmers are dieing without food. I am not saying that this is fare.But, that's how it works now. For all you kow, life is not fare.
Let me know your thoughts.
-Kannan.
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From: Prabhakar SornaPandi
To: Kannan P.
Date : Wed, 19 Mar 2003
Subject: Re: On Kargil
On the Paks Reaction and India's Action part I can rephrase the statement by adding a 'vice versa'. It was not meant to say either India is alone bad or Pakistan alone is good. My main concern in that mail was war become a political game and common people are made to take stands on such political game. I mentioned in my mail that kargil heroes are 'tragic heroes'(not villains). They sacrificed in vain. Their families are left orphans but of no use. Here the author trying to win the sympathy of the reader by telling a kargil war soldier's family who lost him. I wanted to expose the exploitation on the life of a soldier done politically in that article.
My point of secularism is to remove hatred between two fighting races. Lot of damages have been done so far. By calculating the past events you can not come to a conclusion about who did what to whom? But we have to remove our bad point of view of the fellow human for the only reason that he is a muslim or a christian.
My point of secularism is that religion is doing bad to humans in the case of influence. No religion is doing right in that sense. All religions are to be banned. But since it comes from the faith of people, people have to realize over a period of time that it is not religion that makes them to live. To make all people to realize this the first step is to make them understand that religion is not their life. People have to learn that religion is nothing but just a belief and NOTHING more than that. People have to learn to respect a fellow human being disregarding any other religious factors. Fighting and developing hatreds in the name of religious aspects would not help to these steps. RSS and BJP and Shiv Sena are certainly not doing this. They want to control the mass of people in the name of religion by simply saying they have a common enemy and that enemy is a muslim. The magic of religious fanatism is that it can swallow even literate people.
Karl Marx said 'Religion is like Abin'. And I see signs of you being addicted to it. Abin is used as a medicine if taken in very small amounts. But if it is taken regularly then it kills.
rgds,
s prabhakar.
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From: Kannan P
To: S. Prabhakar.
Date : Wed, 19 Mar 2003
Subject: Re: On Kargil
I dont think you and I disagree very much on our idea about religion. I don't like or dislike a person solely based on religion. However, I disagree (very much) on your view on how hindus or (bjp and Co) treat muslims or christians. There are problems and there is no questions about it. I do not agree to use binary logic. Muslims are GOOD and Hindus are BAD. Regarding, cricket, especially, we should not have a problem if an Indian wants to beat Pakistan. I have seen much worser sports madness even in US.
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Comment From : Prabhakar S
Date : Wed, 14 Apr 2004
Now the war like scenario is demonstrated precisely at both the ends. When India is heading towards its Loksaba elections and Pakistan is searching actively for the Alquida terrorists, there goes a cricket game. What do I call this. It is very obvious that this is a political stunt demonstrated solely for political purposes. While the game was playing between the two countries here the deputy Prime Minster warns Pak to 'stop' its terrorist support activities. A Pak minister says 'the game cannot be withdrawn at will by India's discretion alone'. This is nothing but another 'bus, train transport jimmicks to Pakistan'.
Fortunately the opponent Congress neutralized this game politics by sending Rahul and Priyanka to Pakistan for the exhibition match. But still the danger is not gone completely. What if something happens to a player, a hero of lakhs and crores of educated and uneducated people in India? The government will mourn for some days? All over the India the 'villains' will be massacred by the shevaks. I saw one of such recent cricket matches held in Pak, between India and Pakistan, live on TV on a street in Chennai . I watched the huge crowd standing in front of a TV shop that was showing the match. There were office goers, students, boys, rickshaw pullers, auto drivers and so on from various classes of the society. They were all watching it for a long time standing on the street. What do they all have in common. Is it just the beauty of the 'Tendulkar's stroke play'? Or Dravid's new style or Ganguly's victorious looks? No it is not just that. There were original game catchers who really appreciate Gul, Sami too as well as Balaji among them. But here at this time mostly what they all shared in common is not the spirit of the game. It is the hatred that was grown up for over a quiet period against somebody. I saw it on their eyes, in their words, in their expressions when one of the Indian batsman got out.
Because it is easy to set fire. It flares up. Can anybody assure me that there was no hatred in them against the country their country is playing with? It's just like in Cinema 'MGR was adored' and 'Nambiyar was abhored' just for the reason he was the villain who is against the hero. Here our heroes are inside the enemy's fortress and struggling hard amidst the 'barbaric' crowd in the stadium. Thats the feel you get if you are a simple person. That gives the thrill you wanted for.
And suppose it backfires or goes wrong somewhere unexpectedly (may be according to the plans)...
The end result would be atleast a clean sweep win in the elections. Is this assumption could be wrong? I wish it should be.
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1. Science and God - a conversation
From: "Naga sundhar" (is a mechanical engineer living in Singapore)
To: Subject: *SCIENCE & GOD* Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:02:45 +0000
*Let me explain the problem science has with God." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.*
*"You're a God believer, aren't you, son?".
"Yes sir," the student says. *
*"So you believe in God?".
"Absolutely." *
*"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The teachings says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. He considers for a moment.
"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a God believer who died of cancer, even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. *
*"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er... Yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?" The student doesn't hesitate on this one.
"No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct? "
"Yes."
"So who created evil?"
Again, the student has no answer.
"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?" *
*The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?" The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them? " There is still no answer.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues. "Do you believe in God, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes,professor. I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen God?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?" "No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?" thundered the professor
"Yes."*
* "According to the rules of empirical, testable,demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."*
* "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "And is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't." The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet.
The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat,but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than -458 degrees. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.*
* Silence across the room! A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer. * *"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?" *
*"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"*
* The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.* * "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.*
* "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" *
*"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,yes,of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" *
* The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester indeed!
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other students, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. *
* "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain,felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?" *
*Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable! *
*Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
The class breaks into a deadening applause* *
"Continuing further, Sir, when GOD created the universe he made a set of rules which governs every living organisms, categorized in his own way. For some, life is a predestined, well programmed journey of life. For others, like humans, the rules of life are a direct results of their own actions, words, thoughts or/and conducts. So, Sir, happiness, sadness, good, bad, sickness, good health, poverty and abundance, is man's own doing unto himself. The wrong and bad happenings in man's life, is nothing but the lack of righteousness in his way of life."*
-----Actually the discussion should have ended here as GOD expected...but it did not ----------
After a moment of silence and thinking deeply, "Then..", the professor said "Why do I need a God at all..".
"It is true that nobody in this class room have seen my brain.. but you all know and have seen a human brain..and you can see,touch and smell my brain in an operation theatre if you want... it is perfectly true..and 100% possible."
The professor turned towards the student and asked.. "Do you have any such remote possibility to touch atleast a hair of your GOD, son?"
Everybody turned towards the student...he didn't answer.
Professor paced to a closer end of the row...
"Son, you said 'your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must also be flawed...' .
"May be, you are correct or not."
"But did you think who gave you the right to question my philosopical premise..?, Son."
"Is it GOD..? No. It is the poor Science..."
"It allows everybody to question it.."
"Have ever anybody can question the GOD? his premises...or have rights to ?"
Nobody responded.
"It is what all the science is about.." " It is in constant search of TRUTH...". "Today, I teach human came out of monkeys because as per logical conclusions derived scientifically it is true..". "Tomorrow somebody else can come and logically prove that it may be wrong..Science gives you the freedom of chasing the complete TRUTH.." "Does GOD give you that freedom? Son".
"I say No. Instead it asks you to BELIEVE in something and stops to you to question further."
"Science is always searching for the complete TRUTH, continuously. Whenever it gets a TRUTH it is not the Final Truth. But is a Closer Truth. Science would not stop with it. It still continues to search.". "But GOD pretends that it already has the Ultimate Truth."
"It preaches man to just BELIEVE it and prohibits him to question it."
A moment paused in silence...
"I don't want to give a GOD symbol to my uncertainties and unanswerable questions of life. I would rather face them and try to solve them."
"Son, we are working on the premise of duality..Yes.. it is true. There exists a duality in most of the things..why don't you accept this truth you see in life..presence of something.. and absence of the same thing..Its simply a classification.. But as you said I don't know whether the good GOD or the bad GOD or the ugly GOD exists.." "And how did you decide that GOD is unmeasurable..Have you ever tried measuring Him..?" "Or were you allowed to measure Him? Question Him?." professor turned towards the student firmly.. "NO...Never."
"If everything man doing is man's own doing unto himself then why does involve a GOD who never seems to be existing or taking part in your life's deeds..?"
And.."My kind of faith is different from your kind of faith son.."..."My faith is not and never will be blind.." "but yours...?"
Student did not answer at all.. He looked towards professor trying to make out his beliefs.
"Think Children..It is one of the most annoying questions to human life..that killed thousands of people, enslaved thousands.."
"We all believe in one thing or the other in our lives... Is it necessary to name our belief as GOD ?"
Everybody was in deep thoughts that they forgot to respond.
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