on-reflection-digest Monday, October 4 1999 Volume 01 : Number 1895 Re: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster gg: Carpet Crawlers & Artisans gg: One more thing about Crawlers gg: RE: Doonesbury and Us gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster gg: more audio gab gg: Brader takes job with Ripley! gg: A Big Digital Thank You gg: RE: White boy music gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster gg: PS i hate voivod's music gg: New Prog webcasts on RFK Re: gg: more digital audio mania Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand gg: Ripley's News Item!! Re: gg: more digital audio mania gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions? gg: Carpet Crawlers/Geir/Mets Re: gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions? gg: Breuker show gg: Whew! gg: Please, let O-R be Gaines-free! gg: GG: About Gentle Giant gg: Ontopoligical (or GG content?) Re: gg: Breuker show gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster Re: gg: RE: White boy music ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnEric Subject: Re: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster A battle of Epping proportions. JohnEric - --- SPBrader@aol.com wrote: > Alan wrote: > > Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate > debate > tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the > Psycho-Acousitics > squared off to each other. ===== http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 06:44:20 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnEric Subject: gg: Carpet Crawlers & Artisans Speaking of deadly sins, I once knew a guy who worked as a drum and bass roadie. We saw the "Flying in a Blue Dream" Satriani tour, and that guy literally tore the sound apart during the entire concert. He knew what the guys had done properly and wrongly to the sound stage. He shrugged off the poor sound for the opening band, because he said that was to be expected, but during the Satriani set the guy sounded like an old-world artisan barking at apprentice worker ants. 'Artisan' is the operative word here. The drummer for Def Leppard (Who I respect for not giving up entirely ... and the band for keeping him) has a handle on the use of electronic drums, as does Phil ... but die-hard old-world artisans will always prefer skins, cymbols, and vibes, over silicon chips. there's no help for it. For the most part, I'm in the old-world artisan camp. JohnEric - --- mammienun@webtv.net wrote: > Electronic drums are a soundman's dream. I'm sure that holds true for > recording engineers! It's sooo much easier when you don't have to mike > instruments... ===== http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 06:57:18 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnEric Subject: gg: One more thing about Crawlers In an earlier post I compared the new Crawlers to Duke. Now, after reading a few posts on this entire issue I can put it into words more succinctly. Duke was a smoothly polished release. As I believe Fred put it, the new Crawlers is so smooth ... That is the connection. Duke was smooth and used a lot of electronic drum work. I did like Duke and I wouldn't consider re-mixing it to sound more like The Lamb. JohnEric ===== http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:45:04 EDT From: MHB1212GG@aol.com Subject: gg: RE: Doonesbury and Us Anybody happen to catch Doonesbury in Sundays (todays) paper??? You have to read it. Anybody know if Garry Trudeau is a list member??? Oh, never mind...if he was he would probably be lampooning audio. Mark Hans n.p. original music only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 09:49:54 -0400 From: Richard Worthy Subject: gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster This is the reason I put up with my inbox being swampped every day. One of the greatest peices of literature I have ever read. This arguement is rapidly becoming one of my favorites, and this little news break puts everything right into perspective. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:48:02 -0400 From: Richard Hilton Subject: gg: more audio gab At 3:18 AM -0700 10/3/99, Don Tillman wrote: >Do all higher sampling rate units sound better than all lower sampling >rate units? No, not by a long shot. But at their best, the higher sampling rate will be better - up to a point. We're nowhere near that point yet in practice. > Do all 15-inch woofers sound better than all 12-inch >woofers? Not only isn't that true, but a good case could be made for the opposite. "All" of anything doesn't sound better than "all" of anything else, generally speaking. Course, these were probably rhetorical questions to begin with..... 8^) BTW, for those of you caught up in this "analog/digital playback - which is 'better'" debate - that was never what this whole discussion was intended to be about at the beginning (lest there be some misunderstanding about that). In fact, I specifically said that I would not take a position of that whole conundrum (it really doesn't matter, as the vinyl LP has already gone the way of the Edison cylinder). However, if it floats yer boat, then go on ahead and row for all you're worth. Best, Rich Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc. http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:53:10 -0400 From: Richard Hilton Subject: gg: Brader takes job with Ripley! At 3:18 AM -0700 10/3/99, Si Brader wrote: ....one of the funniest things I've read in a very long time. God bless ya, Si. >The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was >believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His >notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly addictive >'dance bits'. Hangin's too good for 'im. He should be deep fried and served with a chipolte cream sauce. >Recently, insider information has been received by the British >authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to >boogie addicts in the UK. This is no joke.....Chic tour of England begins December 15th in Newcastle! Shamelessly plugging away, Rich Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc. http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 12:34:30 EDT From: Dokwebb@aol.com Subject: gg: A Big Digital Thank You I just want to thank all the participants for the Digital postings and explanations. Helped give me an overview of the process.... I have gathered them all up and sent them on to some friends in the recording business to get their 2 cents worth... I guess everyone is getting excited about next weekend. For all of us newbies, lurkers, and ones left behind.... I do hope someone will keep us up to date here of the events and happenings, fisticuffs, etc... and especially Derek's presence at the dinner. When will the video be coming out?!?! np: Bill Frisell - Good Dog, Happy Man so sincerely, dok ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:42:20 -0400 From: Toby Trott Subject: gg: RE: White boy music Wacky predominantly white and mostly male racontuers, Bert replied to JJW's remark: > No offense intended, and I hope none is taken by anyone. > It's just that I don't understand why the excessive > caucasianality* of Phish's audience would bother you -- > after all, isn't it true for most of the bands discussed on > this list? I think it is simply a desire that the music we enjoy so much would have a more universal appeal, because we know it is so good. Then again, part of the appeal of the music is that it is NOT cut from the same mold as what is popular. Quite a dilemma, eh? If it is any comfort to you, JJW, I saw a few (2 or 3) black people in attendance at the Progday festival in Chapel Hill, NC back on labor day weekend. Maybe they were just coming in to get out of the rain (as what was left of hurricane Dennis chose that weekend to pass through) but I believe they were there for the duration of the Sunday events and were actual fans of prog. I believe this is similar to the dearth of females in this group. There is something about this music that has mostly testosteroniousness* along with it's caucasianality. Maybe Dr. Skull, the psychologist of the group can decipher it for us. Or, maybe this is more the realm of sociology. Basically, though, it boils down to: White boys can't dance. We white boys have learned to like music that is clearly not intended for dancing. :-) "I'm a danceless fooooooool. I'm a danceless foooooool. I may be totoally wrong but I'm a danceless foooooool." *(you're not the only one who gets to make up words, bert) Toby "three left feet" Trott @work I'm trott@sas.com, but I become tjtrott@mindspring.com in the dark of night! - -------------- ...world's a stage...play their parts... I have chosen caucais-a-tuer honky-a-dor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:46:22 -0400 From: "Nick" Subject: gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster No More Calls, please -- we have a winner! Post of the Year! On an only semi-related note [a C#, if you must know], I guess I'll use Si's post to hang my note on -- I wanted to wish everyone attending GORGG a wonderful time of Pantagruelian proportions. Having attended a gathering of the Richard Thompson list, I can attest to how much fun this should prove to be! Truly wish I could be there, but circumstances, etc etc. Think of me with kindness. . . - --Nick P. NP: Chris [Garth Brooks] Gaines - Greatest Hits. This is way out of left field: the best Loggins & Messina record in 20 years, and better than anything on "The Ladder". And no -- I'm not kidding! A great record! L&M fans [and you know who you are] run, do not walk, to the nearest store to pick this up! - -----Original Message----- From: owner-on-reflection@lists.uoregon.edu [mailto:owner-on-reflection@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of SPBrader@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 5:30 AM To: adbenjamin@earthlink.net Cc: on-reflection@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: gg: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster Alan wrote: << This is starting to get a bit too combative for my tastes (my fault as well), so I'm going to stop here. Besides, GORGG is less than a week away and I don't want to go in with any trace of bad vibes--no matter the frequency at which they are sampled. :-) >> Having said that, we could probably get an entry in Ripley's Believe It or Not.... Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate debate tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the Psycho-Acousitics squared off to each other. Police said that the so-called 24-Bit turf wars were the worst they had to deal with since the Bloods and the Crips. The list of injuries sustained on both sides was described as horrific. They included bruised egos, dented pride, deaf ears and insulted intelligence. Police issued all points bulletins to track down the ringleaders of these nefarious gangs. The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly addictive 'dance bits'. Recently, insider information has been received by the British authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to boogie addicts in the UK. Little is known about the shadowy head of the opposing camp. Known variously as 'The Theoretician', 'The Weesemeister' or 'Johnson noise Dan' he is known to have links with other gangs with similar sympathies. Chief amongst these is the so-called Don of the Tillman family. Best known for their tactic of extreme intimidation, it is believed that the Tillman clan were responsible for placing an anti-phase filter in the bed of popular musician Alan Benjamin. The average man in the street however remains nonplussed, they don't understand what it's all about. When interviewed yesterday, a man in the street said "I'm nonplussed. I don't understand what it's all about." Reporting for radio WTF, this is Lunchtime O'Booze handing you back to the studio and the latest instalment of Julian B's 44.1 part tribute to Jimmy Page. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 14:23:34 EDT From: "Reginald Dunlop" Subject: gg: PS i hate voivod's music Hello! Daniel Potvin wrote about Voivod: >PS i hate voivod's music Either you're not smoking enough pot, or you're drinking too much wine. By reading your e-mail address, I think you're doing more of the latter...bunch of drunkin' frauds!!! I might be a little nicer if you'd explain *why* you don't like Voivod's music. :) Have a nice day! ;) REG ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 13:40:51 -0500 From: Steve Taaffe Subject: gg: New Prog webcasts on RFK Due to popular requests a Cable Modem Prog webcast has been added. It's encoded at 96 kbps. http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/highspeed1.ram Progressive Music Webcast Show 1 at http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/progcast1.ram Progressive Music Webcast Show 2 at http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/progcast2.ram Progressive Music Webcast Show 3 at http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/progcast3.ram Frank Lauria helped me put together a Todd Rundgren webcast. This was this past weeks 2nd most popular show listened to. http://www.tafcommedia.net/audio/toddrundgren.ram The King Crimson webcast has been heavily listened to also http://www.tafcommedia.net/kc.ram Tom Gagliardi has given RFK permission to webcast his own radio shows. We have one of his latest which includes a Rick Wakeman Interview. See our website for the info. . Steve Taaffe Internet Radio Free Kansas http://www.tafcommedia.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:31:50 PDT From: "Dan Weese" Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania >I appear to have struck a nerve. I'm sorry Dan. I really wanted to >know what gave you the impression that "real 24 bit" doesn't exist, >and you decided to get insulted. Well, there's something about being directly contradicted. >I invite you once again to explain why you believe that 24 bit >recording doesn't exist? Look, you can make a recording at any bitwidth resolution you care to. But you're still using mics in the real world, that is to say, the analog world. The microphone will do its best to accurately reproduce the waveforms that strike it, and the A/D will spit out whatever number you want it to. But the mic is not an infinitely perfect device: there is Johnson noise in it. And there's Johnson noise being added with every resistor and op-amp the signal goes through. The Johnson noise means that 24 bit resolution isn't capturing any more music, because enough white noise is present to muddy the recording sufficiently to offset the benefits of the addition resolution. It would be possible to capture more detail, but that detail is being obscured by the Johnson noise, which imposes a limit on how much resolution can be captured, a limit imposed by the Noise-equivalent power equations given at: http://www.centrovision.com/tech2.htm#NEP Ignore that this describes photodiodes, the Johnson noise is being generated by shunt resistance. Scroll down and you'll notice that Bandwidth part of the numerator is (4KTB), where B = Bandwidth. Bottom line: anyone who says 24 bit makes a more accurate recording than 16 bit at the same sampling rate is a salesman, or is just plain wrong. The salesmen can scream and holler all day long, but they can't argue with Bolzmann's constant or the Johnson Noise Equation. This whole debate reminds me of the absurd wrangling I've heard over whether silver flutes sound better than other metal flutes. As Peter Gabriel pointed out, "with a perfume, you can bottle all you make" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 11:47:25 PDT From: "Dan Weese" Subject: Re: gg: no GG: Re: mastering question; Phish concert >I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this. Although Nyquist's theory holds >true when you look at the frequency of the analog source that can be >sampled, it does not represent how accurately the timbre can be >represented. As an extreme example, how could a 44.1kHz sample >differentiate between a square wave, sine wave, and sawtooth wave that are >all 20kHz (even optimally sampled)? Each cycle could only be represented by >two samples, resulting the same digital representation. Regardless of how >the DA converters "smooth" things out, there is no differentiation. > Well, since nobody could hear it anyway, it would be a moot point. Old Zen koan: if the tree falls in the woods, will anyone hear its timbre? >Now think of a 10kHz frequency, which now has to be represented with four >samples per cycle. Same principal, but now twice the differentiation. And >so on.... Of course the harmonic frequencies play a big part in how we >perceive the results, but this very much applies to those as well. The >higher the sample rate, the better these timbres can be differentiated, and >the better it will sound. > >I tend to agree with everything Rich has posted in regard to this issue >(especially nice job on the original response). It's sort of amusing that >this topic starts taking on arguments of a nearly religious/political >level. Perhaps we should set up a test lab as part of GORGG. :-) > >Take care, > > >Alan > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >| Alan Benjamin e-mail: adbenjamin@earthlink.net | >| Advent Home Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~adbenjamin/advent.html | > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 12:17:22 PDT From: "Dan Weese" Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand >I ask a genuine practical question, asked without prejudice: I >wonder if either Dan or Don has spent much time comparing the results >of recording to 16 bit vs 24 bit at the same sample frequency in a >controlled environment? If so, what did you guys HEAR? Was it just >what you expected to hear, or was it in some way surprising to you? Sure have. I work with it, specifically with chipsets/DSPs handling realtime audio streams in AES/EBU in both pro mode (with the longer word length) and in the consumer mode. I build test equipment. Lots of it. Audio and video test equipment and pattern recognition gear, and artificial intelligence trainable discriminators. The human ear and eye are easily fooled, and are remarkably biased, hence the need for real factory automation techniques to rule out these biases. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:37:17 -0400 From: Richard Hilton Subject: gg: Re: more digital audio mania than most people can stand I wrote: >>I ask a genuine practical question, asked without prejudice: I >>wonder if either Dan or Don has spent much time comparing the results >>of recording to 16 bit vs 24 bit at the same sample frequency in a >>controlled environment? If so, what did you guys HEAR? Was it just >>what you expected to hear, or was it in some way surprising to you? And Dan kindly responded: >Sure have. I work with it, specifically with chipsets/DSPs handling >realtime audio streams in AES/EBU in both pro mode (with the longer >word length) and in the consumer mode. > >I build test equipment. Lots of it. Audio and video test equipment >and pattern recognition gear, and artificial intelligence trainable >discriminators. The human ear and eye are easily fooled, and are >remarkably biased, hence the need for real factory automation >techniques to rule out these biases. You say you've heard it, please tell us what you've heard. Is your work mostly in the building of test gear, the operation of the test gear, the construction of the tests, or the evaluation of the results? I believe that we're easily fooled......now I want to understand the conclusions that you've reached so that I can better understand your position about this. Also, please describe the controls in the environment. Thanks Dan. Best, Rich Richard Hilton/Boppybop Toons Inc. http://members.aol.com/hiltonius/BTI_page.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 12:49:34 -0700 From: "Skip Rizzo, Ph.D." Subject: gg: Ripley's News Item!! THIS IS GREAT! I needed a chuckle like this...can't wait till Friday!! Best Regards, Dr. Skull > >Vicious gangs on opposite sides of the digital domain sampling rate debate >tore apart the Heartland Brewery as the Nyquists and the Psycho-Acousitics >squared off to each other. Police said that the so-called 24-Bit turf wars >were the worst they had to deal with since the Bloods and the Crips. The list >of injuries sustained on both sides was described as horrific. They included >bruised egos, dented pride, deaf ears and insulted intelligence. >Police issued all points bulletins to track down the ringleaders of these >nefarious gangs. The high-profile Hiltonius, aka 'The Practitioner' was >believed to be hiding out in the luxurious suburbs of Long Island. His >notoriety is due to supplying generations of youths with the highly addictive >'dance bits'. Recently, insider information has been received by the British >authorities that he may attempt to supply this highly addictive material to >boogie addicts in the UK. >Little is known about the shadowy head of the opposing camp. Known variously >as 'The Theoretician', 'The Weesemeister' or 'Johnson noise Dan' he is known >to have links with other gangs with similar sympathies. Chief amongst these >is the so-called Don of the >Tillman family. Best known for their tactic of extreme intimidation, it is >believed that the Tillman clan were responsible for placing an anti-phase >filter in the bed of popular musician Alan Benjamin. >The average man in the street however remains nonplussed, they don't >understand what it's all about. When interviewed yesterday, a man in the >street said "I'm nonplussed. I don't understand what it's all about." > >Reporting for radio WTF, this is Lunchtime O'Booze handing you back to the >studio and the latest instalment of Julian B's 44.1 part tribute to Jimmy >Page. > Albert "Skip" Rizzo, Ph.D. Research Assistant Professor Integrated Media Systems Center and School of Gerontology University of Southern California 3715 McClintock Ave. MC-0191 Los Angeles, CA. 90089-0191 email: arizzo@mizar.usc.edu phone: 213-740-9819 fax: 213-740-8241 IMSC: A National Science Foundation Engineering Research Center at USC http://imsc.usc.edu !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ***JOIN THE VIRTUAL REALITY MENTAL HEALTH EMAIL LIST SERVER...233 (SO FAR) PROFESSIONALS WORLDWIDE SHARING IDEAS, DATA, AND THE LATEST INFORMATION. SIMPLY RETURN THIS EMAIL WITH YOUR REQUEST TO BE INCLUDED IN THIS USEFUL FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need people who can dream of things that never were." John F. Kennedy And back by popular demand: "Understanding is a 3-edged sword!" Vorlon Proverb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:18:28 +0100 From: Bob Taylor Subject: Re: gg: more digital audio mania In message <19991003183151.19042.qmail@hotmail.com>, Dan Weese writes >Bottom line: anyone who says 24 bit makes a more accurate recording than 16 >bit at the same sampling rate is a salesman, or is just plain wrong. The >salesmen can scream and holler all day long, but they can't argue with >Bolzmann's constant or the Johnson Noise Equation. I personally like the Welsh rare-bit. Not much of a sound but the Taste Equation is pretty constant. Sampling? No, I just eat the lot. Bob - -- Bob Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:43:23 -0400 From: Alan Benjamin Subject: gg: RE: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster Hi, At 01:46 PM 10/3/99 -0400, Nick P. wrote: >No More Calls, please -- we have a winner! > >Post of the Year! Yes, I must agree! Leave it to Si to sneak somethink like this up on us. (I thought something felt a little rough under the sheets lately.) On a tangentially related note: I just happened upon the new 24-bit remaster of KC's _In the Court of the Crimson King_ (limited edition with miniature LP-style cover). Don't know how it sounds yet (don't want to depress the family so I'm going to wait and play it in the car tomorrow), but the packaging is nice. It's fortunate that I never got around to buying the album on CD until now. If it was only sampled at 96k though.... :-) (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Take it easy, Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 17:56:29 -0400 From: Bert Rubini Subject: gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions? John Eric asked: > Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions? > Well, if you can find a copy of Allen Ginsberg's "The Lion for Real" I think that's worth checking out. Also, the band Material used lots of spoken word by William S. Burroughs on their CDs (esp. "Seven Souls", in which Burroughs appears on most of the tracks). Material is a very good band: Bill Laswell, Bootsy Collins and Bernie Worell are all involved on this project. Also, lots of people on this list are fans of Ken Nordine and the spoken word albums he did in the 50s (and 60s?). All of the above are spoken word with musical accompaniment. bert ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:38:22 -0400 From: "Gary Citro" Subject: gg: Carpet Crawlers/Geir/Mets David Eric wrote: > I agree with JohnEric. It's nice to hear the vocals and instrumentation, > but that annoying percussion track kinda ruins it for me. They aren't > getting my $15 for one song, that's for sure. -David Eric So I guess you have heard it though. I haven't, and I don't intend to spend the $15 either. However, I am downloading it at this moment. For those unaware, it's a free download at www.Genesis-web.com I'm picking up Geir Hasnes at the airport Tuesday night. The Mets just swept the Pirates and are guaranteed at least a playoff game for the wild card. How many miracles can I take in one week?! Gary Citro (I hope Geir from Norway likes baseball! :-) ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnEric Subject: Re: gg: Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions? I'll take those under advisement. Thanks. I have quite a collection of Burroughs. I also have "You're the Guy I Want To Share My Money With" that features Laurie Anderson, John Giorno, and Burroughs. Each of them have distinctly different styles. Have you heard the Steven Jesse Bernstein "Prison"? I was introduced to him when I lived in Seattle. JohnEric - --- Bert Rubini wrote: > John Eric asked: > > > > Spoken word stuff --- Any opinions? > > > Well, if you can find a copy of Allen Ginsberg's "The Lion for > Real" I think that's worth checking out. Also, the band Material > used lots of spoken word by William S. Burroughs on their CDs > (esp. "Seven Souls", in which Burroughs appears on most of the > tracks). Material is a very good band: Bill Laswell, Bootsy > Collins and Bernie Worell are all involved on this project. > > Also, lots of people on this list are fans of Ken Nordine and the > spoken word albums he did in the 50s (and 60s?). > > All of the above are spoken word with musical accompaniment. > > bert > > ===== http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:25:38 -0400 From: "Drew W. Eaton" Subject: gg: Breuker show Hey all. Back from Rochester and I see I stirred up a hornet's nest with my tech questions. Sheesh. :-) I hope everyone's pulse has returned to normal and that we won't have any squaring off at GORGG! Onto the reason for this post: Friday night I was fortunate to have the opportunity to see the Willem Breuker Kollectief. It was a remarkable and absolutely unique performance in my musical experience (spanning 28 years and hundreds of live shows). I cannot possibly adequately relate what I saw/heard but I will quote from a few items published in Rochester area papers: Democrat and Chronicle critic Jeff Spevak wrote (in a preview): "And Breuker, he's celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Willem Breuker Kollectief (WBK). A leader on the Dutch avant-garde jazz scene as a composer and arranger, Breuker's wildly inventive Kollectief can number as many as 11 musicians (there were10 for this show-Drew) whose primary influences are Duke Ellington and the Marx Bros. The band specializes in the horn section's precision instrument flailing and interrupting pieces by Kurt Weil and George Gershwin with non sequitur blasts of circus noises." Chad Oliveiri, writing for City (one of those freebie rags every urban area has) says: "Breuker's compositions are influenced by such far flung sources as Kurt Weill, Hanns Eisler, Ellington, Circus music, assorted folk styles, Erik Satie and George Gershwin. A typical Breuker piece (a contradiction in terms, really) finds the Kollectief functioning almost like a sampler, collaging (!) a bizarre variety of materials-marches, hymns, waltzes, national anthems-at Breuker's whim. The Kollectief doesn't merely play music, it plays WITH music (author's emphasis) But you don't have to follow Breuker's references to get something out of his musical mishmash. Some of the Kollectief's biggest fans say they like the group simply because its music makes them feel good. It's exciting and, even more important, it makes them laugh. During their live shows the Kollectief comes across as some sort of oddball, post-modern vaudeville act. Tuba players solo busily while bandmates pick their pockets. stash their cash, cut their hair; pianist Henk de Jong frequently takes the rear end approach to his keyboard; trombonists and trumpet players do their best Tom and Jerry impersonations while chasing each other off the stage." and later: "The WBK's virtuosity is scary. As with any ensemble that would include Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet and Ennio Morricone's The Good, The Bad and the Ugly in its repertoire and live to tell about it, the Kollectief, for all of its tomfoolery, is a tight ensemble. It takes a steady hand and plenty of skill to make such a well-oiled group appear undisciplined, to make an audience laugh instead of exhausting it with its efficiency." Finally: "A pervading humanity seems to influence everything Breuker and his Kollectief do on a musical and performance level". 'The secret to great music lies in appeal to the intuitive as well as the intellectual listener' he says, 'If my music has such appeal then I consider myself to be a successful composer. As I've said before, I do take music seriously. However, I strongly feel that earnestness should be tempered with humor and modesty. If people think I'm being irreverent, fuck 'em." The show I saw featured a similar variety of elements and healthy doses of abstraction, both improvised and (as nearly as I could tell) composed. The stylistic fits and starts, the comic overtures, the spasms of musical non- sequiturs all combined for a delightful evening. There was a crowd of perhaps 150 people there and they applauded enthusiastically, bringing the band out three times for encores. When I looked around, it didn't seem like a crowd I would have thought would be there....it seemed like a lot of normal looking people :-) but they loved it. It may not be for everyone, but it was definitely different and very refreshing. They're still touring (playing Buffalo during GORGG!). I gave you this URL for info before but here it is again: http://www.xs4all.nl/~wbk/ Finally, I'd just like to comment about how pertinent this all seemed in light of the recent discussion of composition, including theme development and the collage approach. All of these disparate elements were made to work by what had to be an intuitive process rather than an objective, intellectual one. Doubtless there are points in which certain theoretical devices are used in order to connect phrases or passages but overall it did not strike me as the result of a strict implementation of a "system" such as Geir has described as being extant in certain GG compositions. Further, despite the vast quantity of diverse elements in any given piece, the piece does indeed "progress"....it gets from point A to B to C. Whether it does this with the benefit of some implied or subliminal or mathematical system, I'm not smart enough say. It just doesn't seem like it does. ...but the music absolutely does not suffer for it IMO. Drew np-Davey Graham-Fire in the soul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:21:50 -0700 (PDT) From: JohnEric Subject: gg: Whew! Whew! Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me? I thought I'd raised a controversy when I brought up "Giant for a Day". This digital debate is amazing. JohnEric ===== http://www.mindspring.com/~jjellison/nightsky.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:28:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Barney Rubble Subject: gg: Please, let O-R be Gaines-free! Hey all, Now, Nick, I don't want to slight you here or make you angry, but: > NP: Chris [Garth Brooks] Gaines - Greatest Hits. This is way > out of left field: the best Loggins & Messina record in 20 > years, and better than anything on "The Ladder". And no -- I'm > not kidding! A great record! L&M fans [and you know who you > are] run, do not walk, to the nearest store to pick this up! Please keep "The Emperor's New Clothes" of the 20th Century off this list! There are enough REAL bands and artists out there that deserve to be spoken of much more than Garth Brooks' idea-from-a-stolen-idea-from-many-stolen-ideas! I don't even want to waste bandwidth here, nor engage in a flame war with anyone, but please, I hear enough about Garth Brooks/Chris Gaines everywhere without having to hear it here! It takes away precious space that could be used to promote artists who are really trying to do something for the music, not for the Power and the Glory. And to compare it to "The Ladder", no matter how bad you think that album is... At least they are honestly trying to do something themselves. I have MORE than enough points to discuss over this whole charade, but not on the O-R list, Glen (aka Barney Rubble) who rarely gets angry on this mailing list... anybody counting? PS: Once for Rick Butler, I believe that was all. - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 22:33:40 -0500 From: DE Johnson Subject: gg: GG: About Gentle Giant "Pablo" wrote: >Threre isn't much Gentle Giant fans in this place of the world, but >I'm one of them!...I also have a t-shirt with the cover of the first >album. It was made by myself! The people laugh in the street because >"the gnome" seems a politician! The gnome _is_ a politician! That's GGreat!! Mems of Old Daze really screwed with my head when it came out. It was like they were looking back on the past while they were creating its demise. Pictures of the future with mems of the recent past... My Spanish isn't nearly as good as your English. Don't sweat it. DJ/CiViLiAN/Raconteur/le Uncroyable M. Personne Please visit my website and check out some of the soundfiles, etc. at: http://www.raconteurprod.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 00:13:31 -0500 From: DE Johnson Subject: gg: Ontopoligical (or GG content?) "charles / wmo" wrote: >SLightly on the subject - but isn't THE POWER AND THE GLORY one of the best >sounding records/cds of all time? This is true reference disc... Hail to the Power and to Glory's Way! It was for me when I purchased my Linn Sondek in the mid-80's. It helped me make a decision on amplification and speakers as well. I heard things on that record I had never heard before. Which reminds me. I cooked hamburgers and veggies with my son tonite and, while we worked, we listened to GG's FH. I had given him the choice of tPatG, I, and FH. When TtK sounded its first few notes, he got a big grin on his face (and a smile in its place) and said, "Hey! This is my fav GG!!" Not bad for six years old. I put him to bed with Bach's "Goldberg Variations" for the fourth time tonite, giving him a choice between the Bach and Dvorak's cello conc...he chose Bach. He loves the stuff. DJ/CiViLiAN/Raconteur/le Uncroyable M. Personne Please visit my website and check out some of the soundfiles, etc. at: http://www.raconteurprod.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:46:06 +0100 From: "Fred Rosenkamp" Subject: Re: gg: Breuker show Hey Drew, Thanks for the stimulating & motivating review. 'Though I have seen/heard Willem Breuker play at one or two occasions in the past (but w/out the WBK), this review made me realise that I've missed out on something special. I will take the next opportunity to catch the WBK here in Holland. Cheers, Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 02:41:55 EDT From: SPBrader@aol.com Subject: gg: Re: West Side Story - 96bit Digital Remaster Alan Benjamin writes: << (I thought something felt a little rough under the sheets lately.) >> Has Amy been neglecting the bikini line line again? I hate it when that happens ;-) Si ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 06:38:59 EDT From: ProggRockk@aol.com Subject: Re: gg: RE: White boy music But we're not stuck in 4/4. If you go to places in Eastern Europe like Bulgaria, you can see folks dancing in meters like 11/8, 13/8, etc. Last week, I heard an amazing CD of Bulgarian Wedding Music. your neighbor, Raleigh Billy ps: we'll meet sometime, right now I'm working two jobs, 70 hpw ------------------------------ End of on-reflection-digest V1 #1895 ************************************