In total, I had fourteen letters describing fifteen cars - not enough for any meaningful statistics, but enough I think to give prospective buyers some tips on what to look out for. I have included myself as number sixteen, since my car had a service history with it. A few of the more general comments are based on conversations with my dealer and other owners.
I don't know what makes someone respond to an appeal for information from a total stranger, but from the percentage of members who did this you have to conclude they aren't normal. This shouldn't therefore be taken as any sort of representative survey - simply one person's interpretation of things that a few other people felt like telling him.
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Two of the unhappy owners had new Griffith 500s. Both cars developed a major fault, but this wasn't the main reason for dissatisfaction: they also had a large number of relatively minor problems which the owners felt were unacceptable in a £35,000 car. The third owner bought a used 4.3 Chimaera that broke down repeatedly with fuel system and electrical faults. This really did sound like a rogue car, or possibly a rogue garage, and the owner eventually gave up on it.
The twelve satisfied owners had their share of problems as well, but nothing that seemed to outweigh the fun they were having. Four of them had so little trouble that I would have been impressed if they were talking about mass-produced cars, let alone hand-built ones.
Even the unhappy owners said their cars went like greased weasel poo, handled beautifully and looked terrific. The only complaint about driveability was snatchiness at low speeds, and I gather this is particularly bad on early 500 Griffs. However, you can tell all that from a test drive, and this is supposed to be about the things you can't.
Moving on to one of those aspects then, what do they cost to run? Fuel consumption is about 23 mpg. Oil is expensive but only one car was using much of it. One owner had kept his car for over 45,000 miles and reported average 6,000 mile service costs of about £500. Insurance seems to cost most people about £500 a year. Tyres last around 15,000 miles and cost £700-800 a set. Doing 12,000 miles over two years is therefore likely to cost about £1500 in petrol, £1000 in servicing, £1200 in tax and insurance and £600 in tyres. That adds up to £4300, or about 36p a mile.
The other major cost is depreciation. From a quick scan of dealer adverts for twenty-odd 4.0 Chimaeras it seems that prices fall by about £1,200 to £1,500 a year at the sort of mileage I'm using as an example. This isn't the whole story of course, because most of us buy and sell through a dealer, and his margin will be £2-3k, bringing the total depreciation over two years to about £5k. On this basis two years ownership is going to cost about £9-10k, plus anything awful that goes wrong. What surprised me most was that every time you put £10 worth of petrol in the tank you'll have scuffed off about £4 worth of rubber as well.
Other aspects are dealt with below. The way I approached this was simply to reduce each letter to a series of comments, type them all into a big list (about 150 in all) coded by things like model, year, mileage, owner and topic, then sort and sift in various ways looking for points that seemed worth bringing out in a summary. Not very scientific I admit, but neither was the sample. I have included some quirks that you shouldn't worry about as well as faults that you should, in the hope that knowing "they all do that" might save some unnecessary distress about your particular car.
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Chimaera boot hinges can corrode and/or break. One owner had heard of faulty paint batches on some 1992/3 cars. The nose and cills pick up quite a lot of stone chips, so signs of respraying don't necessarily mean anything sinister. There were only three cars that leaked, with one case of flooded footwells cured by putting fabric waterproofer on the hood.
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Electric windows are slow and sometimes stick, as do the electric mirrors (the glass rubs on the casing). Reversing light switches are temperamental and horn buttons don't always work. One owner pointed out that the Griffith driving lamps are well sited to pick up flying stones and he gets through one every 5000 miles or so at £70 a throw.
The battery is an absolute pig to get at, and should only be attempted by potholers. The correct method, so I'm told, is to lay on your back with your head in the footwell, bum on the seat and feet in the air, then reach back and grope. Two new cars had batteries replaced within three thousand miles.
A good proportion of the problems that drove the disgruntled owners to distraction were electrical, and many of the others were to do with . . .
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Four of the owners who bought new cars had only one or two warranty repairs they thought were worth mentioning, and one of them had done 30k miles. Three others had about ten each. The average was five. Used cars varied between one and nine, with an average of five again. A lot of this variablity is no doubt down to what people felt was worth telling me, but I think some of it is real. The factory is obviously capable of making very reliable cars, but not consistently. It also appears that a used one is no more likely to go wrong than a new one, which speaks well for their basic ruggedness.
From the letters I received, I got the strong impression that the least happy owners had not been looked after very well by their dealers. The owners tended to blame the factory, which would be fair if you had a BMW because they've engineered the craftsmanship out of maintaining their cars. TVR haven't, and the dealer knows they haven't, so he shouldn't be selling them if he can't cope. I was horrified by the inconvenience some owners suffered because their dealer seemed incapable of diagnosing faults. Sorry, I'm ranting, but I do feel strongly about this.
Anyway, if you are contemplating buying a new TVR, check out the dealer's reputation and be prepared to be patient while he shakes the bugs out. If the nearest good dealer is a long way away, consider moving house as a precaution. The good news is that, having prepared yourself for trouble, it may never happen. If you are looking for a used one, though, bear in mind that it may have been a bad-un and it may not have been sorted out yet.
So there we have it. Not so much a survey as a straw poll, and not something to take too seriously. I'm not closing the books on this, so if anyone else wants to phone or write I'd love to hear from you and I might offer an update if the picture changes with a larger response. By the way, I'm thoroughly enjoying my Chimaera and liking it more by the day, so none of the above has put me off in the least.
[I've just run the spelling-checker on this and it changed Griff to Grief. A bit unfair, I thought.]
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. . . John Davies was far from satisfied with his approved used K-reg BMW 320i coupe. He said "You are paying a premium for a car that's supposed to be checked thoroughly, but I don't think that's happening. After 20,000 miles I had had three new clutches, two new gearboxes, a new catalytic converter, alternator, rear exhaust and six new ignition coils. . ."
Internet Mailing List Sep 96
I did a similar deal to get the V8S but put a small deposit on
the car to get the best price although you can get zero deposit
deals if you look around, as you have found out. The scheme probably
works as follows:
The finance company lends the 24 grand. You pay the interest on the 24 grand and payback the 12 grand as well over the three years. This will be a lot less than a loan for 24 grand but more than for a simple 12 grand loan. I found that a small deposit dramatically reduced the costs - less perceived risk by the finance company, I suspect. To get a quote, you specify an initial deposit, the monthly rate you want to pay and they would work out the residual payment. It's worth getting different quotes for deposit and residuals - it is not linear or consistent! Key points to watch out for:
1. Cost. Check with companies such as Lombard for a competitive quote.
2. Who owns the car? With a lease purchase, the finance company retains ownership. This is not necessarily a problem but read the small print to find out exactly what the situation is.
3. In which name the car is registered (this, for some reason, can affect the insurance!)?
4. Any penalties to get out of the deal early? This is important if you change jobs or heaven forbid don't like the Chimp or want that V16 version that will be announced in October (!).
5. Check what mileage rate you get for business miles. Some opt-out schemes assume 30+mpg and if you do a lot of business miles, you end up subsidising the company.
There are some amazing schemes going on at the moment. Team Central were doing contract hire on a new Chimp for 308 pnds + VAT a month for a 12 month contract including maintainance. Lease-purchase may be a cheaper option as I found it effectively had a lower interest rate and the payments are tax deductable if the car is a company owned one or your friend has a self-employed interest. The other thing to do is get some tax advice because your friend may find that the time he uses the car on business may be tax deductable anyway i.e. if he does 8000 personal miles and 8000 business miles, half the costs are deductable. It depends on the small print but it would be worth getting some advice before proceeding. It may dramatically affect the sums.
The other point is that he will probably need business insurance
which can dramatically increase the costs depending on your friend's
job and the mileage. Peart Associates were pretty good and I
swapped a 15% limited mileage discount for business cover and
unlimited mileage. If your friend is field based, expect a hefty
hike though.
Steve Heath
Internet Mailing List Sep 96
Those of us in the UK who are in permanent employment may be interested
to know that for the first time this year, as part of the new
self-assessment scheme, it is possible to claim a tax rebate where
your employer pays less per mile than the Inland Revenue decides
is fair. The IR figures are a simple scale based on engine size
bands, but TVR V8s all fall into the highest category at 60p per
mile. What this means is if your employer only pays 40p per mile,
you can claim a tax rebate on 40% of the 20p per mile difference
(for a higher rate tax payer). This lessens the effect of employers
paying too little.
These so called balloon payments where you pay half on credit
and worry about the other half later are usually bad news. For
instance, if you buy a new Ford or Vauxhall on this scheme you
pay half over two years, then discover that you have nothing to
put down on the next car, and no car unless you pay the other
half, which is of course all it is worth after two years. In
effect what you are paying for on credit is purely the depreciation.
It's slightly different with a TVR (or any low depreciating car)
because after the credit period the car is still worth a lot more
than half, therefore you at least have some equity. Not my cup
of tea though. When initially giving up a company car, surely
it's better to set your sights a bit lower for a couple of years
so that after two years you have something which you own outright,
to offset the cost of the next (better) car, and build up to something
good over a few years.
Steve Powell
One call to HPI will provide all the above information in seconds,
the call will cost you £25.00 and all you need to give them
is the vehicle registration number, the VIN (chassis no.) and
your credit card details for instant access to their database.
HPI is open 7 days a week, 365 days a year from 8.00am to 8.OOpm
Monday to Saturday and l0.O0am to 5.OOpm on Sundays. Call 01722
- 422422 and they will tell you if the vehicle is on one or more
of their registers. Within 24 hours you will also be sent written
confirmation of the enquiry including details of any register
the vehicle may be on . . .
Stewart McZuillian
The AUTOLIGN inspection is carried out in one of their purpose built centres, these are equipped with some of the most up to date equipment available, which includes computerised four-wheel alignment, brake testers, etc., and even instruments for detecting filler and paint thickness. Believe me, the test is thorough. After the test a full report is provided detailing the quality of the repair, thedata from the alignment checks, the results of the road test and whether the car passed or if it failed, why it failed. Apparently only 75% pass first time. The cost of the test goes from £150 for a small hatchback to £250 for something more exotic like a TVR . . .
. . . What I would like to advocate is, if you are offered a car which has been damaged, check it over thoroghly as you would if you were buying an old car which had been restored. Check the quality of the repairs and if it has not been through an AUTOLIGN inspection ask the seller if they would be prepared to take it for one before you purchase it.
Just because an insurance company has written off a car it doesn't
mean it is scrap, it means that when they have added up the cost
of labour, parts and paint it isn't worth them having it repaired
because the cost is close to or above the car's market value.
It may be well worth someone having the car repaired using seconhand
parts and carrying out some of the labour themselves. This 'stigma'
is not attached to older cars which have been stripped and rebuilt
due to rust or general deterioration, so why should a damaged
car which has been rebuilt be any different? It's the only way
I can afford to run a TVR in addition to my normal everyday car
and I'm sure other enthusiasts/readrers will agree with my comments.
Phil Robinson
I've been keeping an eye on used TVR prices over the last couple of years. The results are interesting.
I haven't gone into a huge amount of detail with this, just bought occasional copies of Great Cars and Top Marques and checked the prices being asked by TVR main dealers for different years and models. Obviously this approach is not very accurate - specifications and mileages differ and deciding what an 'average' example might cost involves quite a lot of guesswork. It is also possible to find several examples of a particular model/year one month and none at all a few months later. As an example, this month's Great Cars had fifty Griffith/Chimaeras advertised. Spread that across eight engine variants (I'm counting on my fingers here), twelve year/registration bands, plus different trim options and mileage variations, and you can see the problem. Despite all this, I'm pretty confident that the general trend described here is correct.
And that is? Well, if you'd bought a 1993 K Reg 4.0 Chimaera in January 1996 you would probably have paid a dealer £25,000 for it. Fourteen months later, in March 1997, you could find the same car (with a few more miles on the clock) in the showroom for . . . um . . . £25,000. By August '97, nineteen months on, the price would be - guess what - £25,000. It's the same story more or less right across the range, for every model-year. 1993 pre-cat 4.3s seem to have gone up by about £500 over the period, and all 500s seemed to have dropped by a couple of thousand. The latter may have something to do with new 500 prices having staying pretty much the same for a year or so while the other models went up a bit. If you want a little more detail, here it is:
Chimeara 4.0 | Jan-96 | Mar-97 | Aug-97 |
93K | 24,800 | 24,800 | 25,000 |
93L | 25,600 | 25,400 | 25,500 |
94L | 26,750 | 26,333 | 26,500 |
94M | 27,750 | 27,400 | 28,000 |
95M | 28,650 | 28,100 | 29,000 |
95N | 29,500 | 29,000 | 29,000 |
96N | 30,200 | 29,800 | 30,000 |
96P* | 30,650 | 30,700 | 31,500 |
Griffith 4.3 | Jan-96 | Mar-97 | Aug-97 |
92J | 25,500 | 25,000 | no samples |
92K | 24,357 | 25,450 | 25,000 |
Griffith 5.0 | Jan-96 | Mar-97 | Aug-97 |
93L | 30,200 | 27,625 | 29,000 |
94L | 31,500 | 28,900 | 28,000 |
94M | 32,500 | 30,200 | 28,500 |
95M | 33,450 | 31,500 | 30,333 |
95N | 34,300 | 32,500 | 32,000 |
96N | 35,100 | 33,450 | 33,500 |
96P* | 35,800 | 34,300 | 34,500 |
Glitches in the figures like 95M & N Chims both averaging £29,000 in August 97 happen because of the small number of samples. I couldn't decide which might be correct by trying to smooth the values (using polynomial regression analysis if you want the posh term for it), so I left them as they were. This emphasises that you shouldn't wave these figures under a dealer's nose in an attempt to prove something.
If you are selling, bear in mind that these figures are what dealers were advertising the cars for, not what you can expect to be offered. A dealer mark-up of about 10% when you trade in seems fairly typical, so if a dealer offers you £25,000 you can expect to see your car in his showroom for about £27,000 to £28,000. This will obviously depend a lot on circumstances, eg. how much stock the dealer is carrying, whether he thinks he can move your particular car quickly, whether you are trading in for a new or used one.
Footnote: In January 1998 I traded in my 1993 Chimaera 4.0 for a touch over £22,500 against a Griff. Not bad for something I bought two years and 20,000 miles ago for £25,000.
In case anyone comes across these notes in ten years time and can't remember much about 1998:
Chimaera 4.0 | Jan-96 | Mar-97 | Aug-97 | Oct-97 | Oct-98 | Jan-99 |
93K | 24,800 | 24,800 | 25,000 | 25,000 | 23,500 | none |
93L | 25,600 | 25,400 | 25,500 | 25,000 | 24,000 | 23,800 |
94L | 26,750 | 26,333 | 26,500 | 25,125 | 24,600 | 24,375 |
94M | 27,750 | 27,400 | 28,000 | 26,600 | 26,500 | 25,500 |
95M | 28,650 | 28,100 | 29,000 | 28,167 | 27,000 | 26,318 |
95N | 29,500 | 29,000 | 29,000 | 28,929 | 28,286 | 26,500 |
96N | 30,200 | 29,800 | 30,000 | 29,667 | 28,205 | 27,143 |
96P | 30,650 | 30,700 | 31,500 | 31,091 | 29,000 | 28,750 |
97P | - | 32,667 | none | 32,050 | 31,562 | 30,350 |
97R | - | 31,850 | none | none | 31,083 | 31,250 |
98R | - | - | - | - | 31,667 | 31,375 |
98S | - | - | - | - | none | 33,375 |
Griffith 4.3 | Jan-96 | Mar-97 | Aug-97 | Oct-97 | Oct-98 | Jan-99 |
92J | 25,500 | 25,000 | none | 26,000 | none | 23,500 |
92K | 24,357 | 25,450 | 25,000 | none | 24,000 | none |
Griffith 5.0 | Jan-96 | Mar-97 | Aug-97 | Oct-97 | Oct-98 | Jan-99 |
93L | 30,200 | 27,625 | 29,000 | 28,125 | 26,333 | 25,600 |
94L | 31,500 | 28,900 | 28,000 | 29,667 | 26,000 | 26,000 |
94M | 32,500 | 30,200 | 28,500 | 29,500 | 30,000 | 27,375 |
95M | 33,450 | 31,500 | 30,333 | 31,000 | 29,200 | 28,250 |
95N | 34,300 | 32,500 | 32,000 | 33,417 | 30,840 | 28,667 |
96N | 35,100 | 33,450 | 33,500 | 33,000 | 30,462 | 30,692 |
96P | 35,800 | 34,300 | 34,500 | 34,250 | none | 32,000 |
97P | - | 35,100 | 36,000 | none | 33,250 | 30,667 |
97R | - | - | - | - | 35,500 | 34,000 |
98R | - | - | - | none | 35,750 | 34,800 |
98S | - | - | - | - | none | 36,500 |