﻿[psgy08.txt Year 2008: Messages 2321-2525; January 1 - December 23, 2008 (205 messages). Yahoo! advertisements and notices contained in the original messages have been removed. Also, some messages containing a previous message repeated in its entirety have been trimmed. The text is saved in utf-8 which requires a unicode font having the special romanized characters for displaying Pali and Sanskrit letters correctly. 

A chronological index of 65 subject-lines has been included at the bottom of this document along with two indices of message statistics.

Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages

Prepared by Jim Anderson, Jan. 5, 2008]

#2321
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 10:51 pm 
Subject: Be warned: Thai film: "The Life of Buddha"

Several days ago, I saw the "major motion picture" titled _The Life of
Buddha_ --a Thai-made cartoon, that will doubtless define many of the
assumptions about the historical Buddha for some time to come (at
least within Thailand, if not beyond, as English-translation DVDs are
available).

Precisely because the film is regarded as an attempt to portray the
historical Buddha, its wildly unhistorical character is difficult to
behold without a wince.

Textual scholars will immediately recognize the events as hastily
cobbled together from Ashvaghosa and the Lalitavastra --viz.,
non-Pali, non-Theravada, Sanskrit sources (now considered "Mahayana").

Thus, while the source material selected is fundamentally alien to the
tradition of Buddhism in Thailand, the film-makers have attempted to
impose "Thai" elements in a manner both artless and anachronistic.

Perhaps the most striking example: they depict Devadatta reading Pali
from a manuscript written in Khom (classical Cambodian) orthography!
Here is ancient Cambodia written into ancient India (with the ocean
and the passage of over a thousand years that separates the two simply
smeared).  Perhaps more disturbing: the Buddha's followers are
depicted as exclusively male, with no female monastics of any kind
--apparently just to avoid Thai discomfort on this issue (currently it
is illegal for female renunciates to beg with bowl in Thailand, and
charges are pressed on this from time to time, to keep the women "in
their place" in the modern Thai notion of Buddhism --notwithstanding
what the historical Buddha taught, or that he had female renunciates
as disciples, etc.).

A long cataloge of such historical errors could be provided --and,
presumably, somebody in a department of cultural studies will do so
eventually.

As with many modern attempts to re-tell the life of the Buddha (even
in contemporary Sri Lanka), the main defects of the narrative are:
   (1) the focus is almost exclusively on "magical" events surrounding
the birth, childhood, and death of the Buddha --viz., omitting the
actual philosophy and adult life that made the historical figure worth
remembering in the first place,
   (2) instead of philosophic debate, the Buddha is simply depicted
traversing the countryside of India to perform banal miracles (e.g.,
fighting a magic snake, making it rain indoors, etc.) to "win" the
"faith" of converts --and this is both fundamentally boring to behold,
and wildly extraneous to any reason (secular or religious) for
respecting the historical Buddha or his teaching,
   (3) there is neither any interest in the social/historical reality
that the Buddha spoke to (in India of his time), nor is there any
interest in the social/historical reality that the audience now
inhabits, and that the content of the film might address.

Under heading #3, we could note that a Sri Lankan (or mainland Indian)
film along the same lines would at least mention the existence of the
caste system, and the Buddha's critique thereof; but not so for the
Thais.  It would also be easy to imagine some other film-maker having
an interest in issues that vitiate modern Thailand, such as
alcoholism, drug-addiction, prostitution, etc. --but this is purely
"cloud-cuckoo-land" filmmaking.

The film is garbage; however, the monks and laypeople that now step
forward in praise of it (as an accurate depiction of the historical
Buddha) do us a great favor in discrediting themselves.

The same may well be said of the craze for "Jatukam" amulets in
Thailand; it is as if the most corrupt had devised these as a means of
having the worst elements of Thai monasticism identify themselves, at
the same time convincing all the dunces to wear a sign around their
necks in public to declare their own gullibility.

The saddening question is this: will there ever be an interest in the
historical material that the Pali suttas hold, such as might challenge
the widespread assumptions built up from half-remembered legends of
Ashavghosa, the Lalitavastra, and Jataka fables ("Wet-san-don", etc.)?

In Thailand, the answer is "no".  The Buddha they believe in shaved
his head, and yet maintained a full head of hair.  He evidently never
said, wrote, or recited anything of philosophic significance, and is
instead an object of worship simply on account of his (supposed) royal
blood and conjurer's tricks.

So far as the dramatist's art is concerned, I here recall
Schopenhauer's comment on Dante's epic poems: the first (inferno) had
a great deal of dramatic interest, the second (purgatory) less so, and
then the last (paradise) was an utter bore, as it simply floated from
one cloud to the next, with no suffering or conflict to provide
dramatic interest.  So too, here, the film-makers never considered
that it might be an aesthetic mistake to delete suffering --not only
because the Buddha's philosophy is (in some sense) "about" suffering,
but also because drama (_per se_) requires suffering to satisfy the
requirements of the stage.  If we turn ancient India into paradise,
and put a halo around all of the characters' heads, all that remains
is for a bunch of figures to float around, making resounding
declarations in echoing voices --viz., there is, strictly speaking, no
plot.

But ancient India was no such paradise, and the other parties the
Buddha debated with (and preached) to provided much more than just
mute astonishment before a haloed spectacle --they provided real
opposition based on their own religious and philosophical views, and,
moreover, they confronted him with real problems based on their own
experience.

There was (and is) "a point" and "a plot" to the Pali canon; and it's
a shame that both the film-makers, and so much of the Thai audience,
simply miss the point.

E.M.

#2322
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2008 11:36 pm 
Subject: A visit to Ban Chiang, UNESCO-approved historic site

I made a trip by bicycle of slightly more than 100 km to see the pits
of Ban Chiang.

For those who don't know, Ban Chiang is dated to 5,600 years of age
--quite early so far as known evidence of local human inhabitation
goes.

It is a UNESCO World Heritage Site, and so very well-funded --a lot of
good masonry and gardening.  However, I have been to many, many
museums under the aegis of the Thai Fine Arts Department, and I have
been to quite a few UNESCO World Heritage Sites.  Of them all, this
was the least informative, least impressive, least enjoyable.

One can learn rather less at the new, high-budget, one-room museum (in
the midst of an expansive "campus" of largely useless buildings,
including a stage, etc.) than at Khon Kaen's (old, dusty) branch of
National Museum --and the smattering of Ban Chiang objects to be found
at (seemingly) each and every major Thai museum makes a trip to the
original site (where the collection is fairly unimpressive) even less
worthwhile.

The trouble is (even for those travelling by bus rather than bicycle)
there is nothing about the site that is even as interesting or useful
as reading a single article --and, indeed, it cannot compete even with
the other museums here that treat the same history in passing.

And, as always, there is the terrible question of Thai national
identity inserting itself into ancient history.

The curators apparently thought it safest to simply omit any
discussion of the lingual or ethnic identity of the inhabitants of Ban
Chiang entirely --rather than even review the current range of
theories (hint: none of them identify the inhabitants in any way with
the modern Thais / Tai-Kadai peoples).

And, of course, while a clumsy assertion that this was the original
Thai homeland might seem appealing to an outsider, one must recall
that the official history still remains that 5,000 years ago, the
Thais were still migrating southward from their mountain homeland in
the Mongolian Altai --via their lost kingdom of Nanchao / Nanzhao in
Yunnan.  Of course, this is mere fiction (yes, I can provide citations
for articles reviewing the historiography, if anyone requests this
off-list) --but it is an official fiction with a long shadow.  So:
despite the mere fact that the Ban-Chiang-culture(s) were not Thai
--it is also not especially convenient to pretend that they were Thai.

The curators seem to have opted for vague descriptions of Ban Chiang
as a "Thai prehistoric society and culture" --perhaps leaving it up to
the reader/visitor to decide if this means "a prehistoric society that
happens to be located in what is now modern Thailand", as opposed to,
"the ancient society of the Thais".

To lend force to this pointedly vague message, we are repeatedly told
that Ban Chiang is THE MOST IMPORTANT PRE-HISTORIC SITE IN ALL OF
ASIA.

This claim is made even more absurd by the "narrative" that represents
these people as coming from nowhere and going nowhere; rather than
entertain the possibility of genocide (viz., correlating their
disappearance to other, incoming migrations, at the end of the
period), the museum invites us to believe that "environmental factors
forced them to migrate to places with more suitable surroundings".  No
further explanation.

Thus: we don't know who they were, nor where they came from, nor where
they went.  And any speculation on the point would be... inconvenient.

Thus, the connection to early "Vietic" (proto-Vietnamese) people (cf.
"Hoa-binh" archaeology, etc.) who were settled
(buffalo-walking-distance) east of the sites, in what is now Laos and
Vietnam, is nowhere mentioned --but much is made of a few glass beads
that came as trade-goods from mainland India.

It would indeed be politically inconvenient were the original "Thai
prehistoric culture" proved to be ... Vietnamese.

However, if the involvement of UNESCO does not serve to shed some sort
of objective light on such history as it is presented at these
sites... what good is it?

E.M.

#2323
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 4, 2008 11:07 am 
Subject: A Brief Report with an Index of Subject-lines for 2007

Dear Members,

As usual for previous years, I have prepared a new zipped text file
containing all the group messages for the year 2007 which can be downloaded
from:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/psgy07.zip

For reference, I have attached, below, a chronological index of the
subject-lines along with some statistics which is also included in the
uploaded zipped file.

A total of 212 messages were posted for 2007 compared to 478 in 2006.
Membership increased slightly from 45 to 47 with 4 new members less 2
departing ones.

I notice that most members receive their individual emails in the default
format. I would recommend the traditional format if you prefer a minimum of
intrusion from Yahoogroups. You can make the change by going to the group's
homepage (login required) or getting me to do it for you. You may also be
able to change to "traditional" by sending a blank email to:

palistudy-traditional@yahoogroups.com

Later on, I will give an update on my continuing study of Kaccaayana's
grammar and the challenges ahead. Members are free to post whatever they
consider fit for the group. In my case, I will be keeping my focus on
traditional-style grammatical studies.

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson

INDEX

Subject-lines listed by date for 2007:
[note: original poster and message numbers are within square brackets]

January 2007
13 EM's 2007 "edition" of Narada Thera's textbook [E. Mazard] [2109-11 =3]
14 EM's Pali website update, very brief further note [E. Mazard] [2112]
19 EM: Gone to Bokeo [E. Mazard] [2113]
24 New (2007) Narada textbook finally ready for download [E. Mazard] [2114]

February
22 Re: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary [E. Mazard: 2041(2006);
          M. Allon: 2115] [2115-17 =3]

March
19 Survey of Thai-Pali literature, 1969 [E. Mazard] [2118-19 =2]
25 Phayao Pali Study Centre (!) [E. Mazard] [2120]

April
01 Update [J. Anderson] [2121]

May
05 birch-bark paper for Pali Mss? [J. Anderson] [2122]
07 Birch-barch MS (1st century) & Kacc [E. Mazard] [2123, 2127-8, 2130 =6]
      Pind's article: Table of Contents [E. Mazard] [2124-6 =3]
08 Dangers of being a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka [E. Mazard] [2129]
10 Kacc 271 [J. Anderson] [2131-33, 2136, 2138-39, 2141-50, 2152-60 =24]
11 [deleted accidental post by T.K. Wen] [2134]
     Kacc & Classical punctuation [E. Mazard] [2135]
12 Bokeo: The Pali milieu [E. Mazard] [2137]
      Bokeo: The Pali milieu (2) [E. Mazard] [2140]
15 For a (digital) Pali dictionary [E. Mazard] [2151]
21 Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) [J. Anderson] [2161-65 =5]
31 di.t.thaa [O.H. Pind] [2166]

June
05 iCPD [O.H. Pind] [2167-84 =18]

July
13 One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography [E. Mazard] [2185, 2187-90
         =5]
15 Pali MS in Maha-Sarakham report [E. Mazard] [2186]

August
07 sudden death of Dr. Primoz Pecenko [J. Anderson] [2191]
13 Rare Buddhist Sanskrit book titles at BPS [Nyanatusita] [2192]
28 article on Pali lexicography [J. Anderson] [2193-96 =4]

September
01 Milindapañha or Milindapañhaa [Nyanatusita] [2197-99, 2208 =4]
03 Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) [E. Mazard] [2200, 2203, 2205, 2207,
         2211, 2213-5 =8]
      Kacc 1-4-12 (query, "agyaagaara?") [E. Mazard] [2201, 2216, 2222 =3]
      Kacc. example, "parakkamo" [E. Mazard] [2202, 2204, 2206 =3]
      Who is Alexander Wynn? [E. Mazard] [2209-10, 2212 =3]
05 Very brief note on Chiang Rai Universities [E. Mazard] [2217]
06 Strange praise for Peter Skilling [E. Mazard] [2218]
07 Abrupt Exile from Laos: Very Bad News Indeed [E. Mazard] [2219]
      Bad news for me, but good news for Kaccayana [E. Mazard] [2220-1 =2]
10 unicode in group messages [J. Anderson] [2223]
19 Fw: SuttaCentral announcement [J. Kelly] [2224]
      (1) Siam Society, (2) S. Collins grammar [E. Mazard] [2225]
20 eva.m me suta.m [O.H. Pind] [2226-7, 2229-30, 2233, 2235-40, 2289, 2291-2
         =14]
      Dhammananda Kosambi [Nyanatusita] [2228, 2231-2, 2242, 2244-6 =7]
21 Pali studies in Kunming, China [E. Mazard] [2234, 2261 =2]
23 te suta.m/me suta.m [O.H. Pind] [2241, 2243, 2247, 2249-50, 2252, 2254-6,
         2259-60, 2262 =12]
25 Request for Jayamangala e-text [E. Mazard] [2248, 2251, 2253, 2257-8 =5]

October
02 PTS Subodhaala"nkaara with 2 .tiikaas [J. Anderson] [2263]
07 EM's Pali Website update [E. Mazard] [2264]

November
01 Two useful resources for Shan manuscripts [E. Mazard] [2265]
10 Kacc 10 revisited [G. Bedell] [2266-7, 2269-76, 2278, 2280 =12]
      Report from Yunnan, misc. comments on Kacc 10, digital textbooks,
          recent articles, etc. [E. Mazard] [2268]
12 B. Clough's 1824 Pali grammar [J. Anderson] [2277]
13 Kacc 1-2-9 revisited! ("Do dhassa ca") [E. Mazard] [2279]
      The dubious case of Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme
           [E. Mazard] [2281]
       Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme [E. Mazard] [2282-8
            =7]
15 Dakkhi.nodaka [Nyanatusita] [2290, 2293-2307, 2309 =17]
21 O.H. Pind's paper on Buddhaghosa uploaded [J. Anderson] [2308]

December
01 John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit) [E. Mazard] [2310-14 =5]
08 Pind's article on Buddhaghosa [E. Mazard] [2315]
26 Diodotus = Asoka? [E. Mazard] [2316]
27 E.M. in Issan & China, general update [E. Mazard] [2317]
28 Pali by bicycle [E. Mazard] [2318]
29 Kathavatthupali 19.5 [Rahula] [2319-20 =2]

No. of new subject-lines initiated by:
E. Mazard 39
J. Anderson 10
Nyanatusita Bhikkhu 4
O.H. Pind 4
J. Kelly 1
Rahula 1
Total no. of new subject lines: 59

No. of posts per contributing member:
62 Eisel Mazard
49 Ole Holten Pind
40 Jim Anderson
15 L.S. Cousins
10 George Bedell
7 Nyanatusita Bhikkhu
8 Phra Noah Yuttadhammo
6 Mark Allon
4 Dhammanando Bhikkhu
3 John Kelly
2 Tzung Kuen Wen (Khemaramsi)
1 Robert Kirkpatrick
1 Peter Masefield
1 Justin McDaniel
1 Ong Yong Peng
1 Everett Thiele
1 Rahula
Total no. of messages for 2007: 212

#2324
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 6:10 am 
Subject: SV: A Brief Report with an Index of Subject-lines for 2007

Many thanks Jim,
This is very useful.
Best wishes,
OHP

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 04 January 2008 17:08
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] A Brief Report with an Index of Subject-lines for 2007

Dear Members,

As usual for previous years, I have prepared a new zipped text file
containing all the group messages for the year 2007 which can be downloaded
from:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/psgy07.zip

#2325
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 4:59 pm 
Subject: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

Dear Pali freinds,

The online version of all published volumes and fascicles of A Critical Pali
Dictionary is now accessible at  <http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd>
http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd. We only need to address a few things before the
online version has been finalised. Anyway, it is now searchable. Please
notice that the search engine does not distinguish between e.g. retroflex
/t/ and dental /t/. This makes searching easy. Just identify the word you
are looking for in the list and click on it. You have the option of
searching for words in articles e.g. for upani.sad, which shows that
Andersen and Smith had traced an important pasage in Chandogyopani.sad,
which shows that Pali upanisa (< Sanskrit upani.sad) in the sense of cause,
condition, is already recorded in Vedic Sanskrit. You may use * when
searching if you wish, e.g. upani.s* or the like.

Best wishes,
Ole Holten Pind

#2326
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:42 am 
Subject: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

Dear Ole,

Thank-you for the announcement. It is really great to see CPD back
online again after its brief appearance last June and I hope it stays
up this time. It comes at an opportune time for me as my own copy is
now out-of-reach until spring. I tried out the search page and it works
fine in my browserwith all the Unicode characters displaying correctly.
It is also nice to see the addition of the Introduction to CPD. I tried
looking up the word 'adhikicca' which I often come across when Mmd is
describing the derivation of a word or the sandhi of two words but the
meaning in this context continues to elude me even after checking with
the meanings of Skt. 'adhik.rtya' in Apte and MW. For those who are
unfamiliar with CPD, it only goes up to 'kaama-dhaatu'.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2327
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 12:17 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

The online CPD does indeed seem excellent.

I looked up a few obscure words, and found both the interface and the
substance of the text impressive.

My one suggestion would be to provide a link soliciting funding or
donations for current Pali lexicography projects in Copenhagen.

The type of people who will use the website will also be prone to
giving donations toward creating future resources of the same kind.

A link to a website that invites donations, or that encourages
prospective donors to visit your department/library to make
arrangements directly, will likely "reap dividends".

There are large numbers of generous Buddhists, often lacking
legitimate causes to exercise their generosity upon.

E.M.

#2328
From: "L G SAGE" <conniebpj@msn.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 10:56 am 
Subject: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

Dear Jim,

JA: For those who are unfamiliar with CPD, it only goes up to 'kaama-dhaatu'.

CP:  Thank you.  I wondered.
best wishes,
connie

#2329
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:37 pm 
Subject: SV: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary 

Dear E.M.,
You are absolutely right. We are taking steps in that direction, otherwise
an incredible amount of knowledge about Pali and the language of the early
Buddhist canon will inevitably go down the drain like so many other things
in humanities. It is going incredibly fast these days as mercantile
interests have taken over just about everywhere. Lexicographers and
especially Pali lexicographers are members of an endangered species.
OHP

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 08 January 2008 06:17
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

The online CPD does indeed seem excellent.

I looked up a few obscure words, and found both the interface and the
substance of the text impressive.

My one suggestion would be to provide a link soliciting funding or donations
for current Pali lexicography projects in Copenhagen.

The type of people who will use the website will also be prone to giving
donations toward creating future resources of the same kind.

A link to a website that invites donations, or that encourages prospective
donors to visit your department/library to make arrangements directly, will
likely "reap dividends".

There are large numbers of generous Buddhists, often lacking legitimate
causes to exercise their generosity upon.

E.M.

#2330
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:59 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

Ole,

> ... mercantile
>  interests have taken over just about everywhere [in academia].

Of course, there is a lot of truth to this (I recall that A.K. Warder
insisted on the importance of this in our long interview) --but the
exceptions to the rule are (thus) even more important to recognise.

Have you (or has anyone on the list) visited the department of
Indology in Warsaw?  I inquired with several people who "know" Polish
academia, as Dr. J. Jurewicz is there (and I read her article, lately
published in the JPTS) --and they not only insisted that Polish
academia has remained unchanged since the advent of Communism,
moreover they insisted it has changed little since the Dark Ages!  And
this was meant as a compliment!

Chinese academia, too, with its culture of "the iron rice bowl", and
its cult of the scholar, interests me --and, as you know, it seems to
interest me enough to invest several years and a portion of my brain
to try living there, and learning the language.

On a separate but related strand: what I observe is that the
"mercantilization" of academia has resulted in the massive
proliferation of what was formerly confined to departments of
literature, viz., the assumption that "real scholars" carry out
research independently, and then simply show up to collect the degree
"after the fact".

In other words, even philologists now collect PhDs as if they were an
"honourary" ornament to independent work.

This pattern is certainly understandable for creative writing (viz.,
awarding PhDs to dramatists, poets, etc., whose work neither relies
upon nor benefits from institutional support --or even for certain
forms of anthropology, where field work is of paramount importance)
but it is a real regression for philology --indeed, it is a kind of
admission that the institutions lag far behind personal initiative,
and really can provide little more than an empty room for scholars to
conduct their research in.

However, so as not to end on a pessimistic note, I would re-iterate
that my impression is: there is much more than an empty room in Warsaw
--and they seem to have an indology department with a range of
competences, from Sanskrit to Jain Prakrit, etc.

E.M.

#2331
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:30 am 
Subject: Bangkok conference (re: Pali & MS): June 4th 

Schedule of An Internatinal Seminar on

                                          'Buddhism and Textual  Studies'

Organised by

the International PhD Programme in Buddhist Studies

     Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities in  Collaboration with

     College of Religious Studies, Mahidol University, Thailand

                                                 At the Royal River
Hotel, Bangplad, Bangkok

                                               4 June 2008

                                      ______________

Morning Session

09: 00  Arrival of  participants and registration

09.15   Openning speech by President of Mahidol University

09.30   Welcome speech by Dean of the Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities

09.40  VDO presentation of the International PhD Programme in Buddhist
Studies, Mahidol University

10.00-11.30 Paper by Prof Dr Richard Gombrich, Academic Director of
Oxford Centre for Buddhist

       Studies on  'The Importance of Textual  Studies in Buddhism and
how to do a critical edition'.

11.30-12.00  A Thai Summary by Dr Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand


Moderator in the morning Session: Dr Justin Meiland

Lunch Break

Afternoon Session

13:00-16:30     Paper Presentation on the theme  'Buddhism and Textual Studies'

             -By Prof Dr Nalini Balbir, College de France, France (In contact)

             'Textual Studies and Buddhism in Europe: Past, Present and
Future'

              -By Dr Peter Skilling, École française d'Extrême-Orient, Thailand
             'Buddhism and Textual Studies in South East Asia'

                  -By Dr Toshiya Unebe, Department of Indian Studies,
Nagoya University

              'My Experiences in Editing Pali Manuscripts: Problems and
Solutions'

             -By Asst Prof Dr Prapod Assavavirulhakarn, Chulalongkorn University

                         'Editing Texts in Thailand'

                         Chaired by Dr Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand
(with a Thai summary)

16:30-17:00 Questions and Answers

17:00           Closing remarks by Assoc Prof Dr Pinit Ratanakul

                      Dean of College of Religious Studies, Mahidol University

Moderator in the Afternoon Session: Dr Alexander Wynne

                         ______________________


For those who are interested in attending the seminar, please write to
book a place at: shpbp@mahidol.ac.th, jmeiland@yahoo.com

#2332
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:39 pm 
Subject: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

I'm forwarding this message from Dr. Mark Allon who was unable to post it
directly due to some technical difficulty. Jim Anderson
...............................................

Dear Ole,

The search engine also does not make a distinction between dental /n/ and
palatal /ñ/, with the latter not being available among the characters with
diacritics for input. Although not a major limitation, is there scope for
introducing this distinction?



Regards

Mark





Dr Mark Allon

Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies

University of Sydney

   _____

From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ole Holten Pind
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:59 AM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [palistudy] Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary



Dear Pali freinds,

The online version of all published volumes and fascicles of A Critical Pali
Dictionary is now accessible at <http://pali. <http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd>
hum.ku.dk/cpd>
http://pali. <http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd.> hum.ku.dk/cpd. We only need to
address a few things before the
online version has been finalised. Anyway, it is now searchable. Please
notice that the search engine does not distinguish between e.g. retroflex
/t/ and dental /t/. This makes searching easy. Just identify the word you
are looking for in the list and click on it. You have the option of
searching for words in articles e.g. for upani.sad, which shows that
Andersen and Smith had traced an important pasage in Chandogyopani.sad,
which shows that Pali upanisa (< Sanskrit upani.sad) in the sense of cause,
condition, is already recorded in Vedic Sanskrit. You may use * when
searching if you wish, e.g. upani.s* or the like.

Best wishes,
Ole Holten Pind

#2333
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:13 am 
Subject: SV: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary 

Dear Mark,

The idea has been to make it possible for users to search for words without
having to distinguish between palatal n, dental n and retroflex n and other
diacritics. It works fine, you just have to identify the word you are
looking for on the list that is displayed and click on it. Try, for
instance, looking up att* or the like.

Regards,
Ole


-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 25 January 2008 02:40
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

I'm forwarding this message from Dr. Mark Allon who was unable to post it
directly due to some technical difficulty. Jim Anderson
...............................................

Dear Ole,



The search engine also does not make a distinction between dental /n/ and
palatal /ñ/, with the latter not being available among the characters with
diacritics for input. Although not a major limitation, is there scope for
introducing this distinction?



Regards

Mark





Dr Mark Allon

Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies

University of Sydney

   _____

From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ole Holten Pind
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:59 AM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [palistudy] Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary



Dear Pali freinds,

The online version of all published volumes and fascicles of A Critical Pali
Dictionary is now accessible at <http://pali. <http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd>
hum.ku.dk/cpd>
http://pali. <http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd.> hum.ku.dk/cpd. We only need to
address a few things before the
online version has been finalised. Anyway, it is now searchable. Please
notice that the search engine does not distinguish between e.g. retroflex
/t/ and dental /t/. This makes searching easy. Just identify the word you
are looking for in the list and click on it. You have the option of
searching for words in articles e.g. for upani.sad, which shows that
Andersen and Smith had traced an important pasage in Chandogyopani.sad,
which shows that Pali upanisa (< Sanskrit upani.sad) in the sense of cause,
condition, is already recorded in Vedic Sanskrit. You may use * when
searching if you wish, e.g. upani.s* or the like.

Best wishes,
Ole Holten Pind

#2334
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:40 pm 
Subject: Re: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary 

Ole,

>  The idea has been to make it possible for users to search for words without
>  having to distinguish between palatal n, dental n and retroflex n and other
>  diacritics.

And it is an excellent system --especially as so many words have
doublets ("etymological twins") with retroflex vs. non-retroflex
pairings.

E.M.

#2335
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:18 am 
Subject: SV: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary 

E.M.,

Yes, and it makes it easy to look up words like kath.m, just write katham,
and you get the information you want

OHP

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 26 January 2008 04:40
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary

Ole,

>  The idea has been to make it possible for users to search for words
> without  having to distinguish between palatal n, dental n and
> retroflex n and other  diacritics.

And it is an excellent system --especially as so many words have doublets
("etymological twins") with retroflex vs. non-retroflex pairings.

E.M.

#2336
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:07 am 
Subject: RE: Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary 

Thanks, Ole (and others) for your comments.

This works fine for me.

Regards
Mark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Ole
>Holten Pind
>Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 3:13 AM
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: SV: [palistudy] Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary
>
>Dear Mark,
>
>The idea has been to make it possible for users to search for words
without
>having to distinguish between palatal n, dental n and retroflex n and
other
>diacritics. It works fine, you just have to identify the word you are
>looking for on the list that is displayed and click on it. Try, for
>instance, looking up att* or the like.
>
>Regards,
>Ole
>

#2337
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:19 am 
Subject: eBooks from Myanmar

Dear List Members,

A member of another Pali list gave an url where you can download the
following Pali grammars from Myanmar:

A Grammar Of Pali Language. Vol 3
       Author:  Tha Do Oung
       Year:  1900

A Practical Grammar Of The Pali Language
       Author:  Charles Duroiselles
       Year:  1906

Pali Grammar, A Phonetic And Morphological Sketch Of The Pali Language
       Author:  J Minayeff
       Year:  1882

And also a Burmese grammar:
Burmese Grammar And Grammatical Analysis
       Author:  A W Lonsdale
       Year:  1899

These books are in very large files (one of the books was 98+MB!). So you
would need a high-speed connection to download these books. There are many
other books of interest on the same webpage which can be accessed from here:

http://www.aseaninfonet.org/myanmar

I will not be accessing the internet for five days starting this Saturday.
I'm going to Toronto then on to a Vietnamese meditation centre in Laval,
Quebec to see the Burmese monk, Ven. Ashin Thitzana, who will be
giving 9 days of Dhamma classes and leading a 9 day Vipassana retreat
afterwards. I will be staying for one night only. This is the monk I've
mentioned a few times on this list which I haven't seen for more than 25
years. As far as I know, he is a Tipitakadharo. His temple is in Norwalk, CA
in the Los Angeles area.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2338
From: "L G SAGE" <conniebpj@msn.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:01 pm 
Subject: Re:eBooks from Myanmar

Hi Jim, All,
You can also search http://books.google.com<http://books.google.com/> for Pali
grammars.  You can download pdf's or just save them to your on-line library.  I
think you might have to have a g-mail account for the library option.
peace,
connie

#2339
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:35 am 
Subject: Re: Re:eBooks from Myanmar 

For those who haven't already heard this too many times:

Duroiselle's _A Practical Grammar Of The Pali Language_ is already
available as a (corrected) digital edition from my own website, and it
is a "real" PDF (not scanned images) --and thus much, much smaller
than the 98 megabytes aforementioned:

I do indeed "have" Ta Do Oung's work (not just vol. 3), and my
comments on it are in the archives for this discussion forum.

E.M.

#2340
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2008 9:53 pm 
Subject: Re: eBooks from Myanmar 

Following up on Jim's note below, The ASEAN Infonet site has downloadable books
from
each of the member countries.  The list under Thailand is disappointing, but
under
Cambodia you will find:

Précis de grammaire pâlie
Translation: Handbook of Pali grammar
Author: Victor Henry
Year: 1906

Le Vocabulaire Cambodgien dans ses Rapports Avec le Sanscrit et Pali
Translation: The Kampuchean Vocabulary in its Relationship With Sanskrit and
Pali
Author: E. Ménétrier
Year:1933

There are also several volumes of Cambodian inscriptions.

George Bedell

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
>
> Dear List Members,
>
> A member of another Pali list gave an url where you can download the
> following Pali grammars from Myanmar:

#2341
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2008 6:46 am 
Subject: Things Pali in Bangkok, 2008 

A short report on some places and resources related to Pali studies in
Bangkok, 2008.

_Table of contents_
(1) Notes on Chulalongkorn University
(2) Notes on Mahidol-Salaya
(3) Notes on the National Library
(4) Notes on Museums & Historiography
(5) Short note on publishers


(1) CHULALONGKORN

UNESCO's Bangkok office under R. Engelhardt has, reportedly, been
highly influential in "schooling" the Thai universities in winning
project funding.  The most palpable result is the proliferation of
tiny, specialized departments, such as the (alleged) "Department of
Xipsongpanna-culture studies" (!) at Chulalongkorn University, headed
by Prof. Pawan (presumably a nickname or shortened surname; the
professor is female, but we have not met).  Presumably, this tiny,
specialized department will take advantage of the UNESCO-led
manuscript research in Yunnan --I have written for more information.

Chulalongkorn has succeeded in making its campus both "more beautiful"
and "less ugly" over the last three years --and the
construction/upgrading now continues.

Unfortunately, the gardens at "Chula" are indeed infested with rats
--and the barking dogs don't help matters.  Pali scholars should start
a petition to replace the dogs with cats, to guard against the rats
--as, after all, rats can destroy books and manuscripts (no animus
against them on my part, I assure you!  The year of the rat is fast
upon us!).

The university also has two (equally large) bookstores, with
confusingly similar names, at present; one in the middle of the
campus, one adjacent to Siam square.  I would advise against promising
to meet anyone "at the bookstore" for this reason.


(2) MAHIDOL-SALAYA

I made a formal visit to Mahidol University, to meet with the
professor who founded their new Pali & Buddhist Studies programmes (a
department now less than six months old) --and to "inspect" the place
generally.

The University campus that houses the programme is NEITHER in Bangkok,
nor in Nakhon Pathom.  Do not be misled into thinking that the city of
Nakhon Pathom is closer to the university than Bangkok (it isn't).  In
reality, the University is NOWHERE, but it is apparently more popular
to describe its location as "Nakhon Pathom" than "out on a highway
somewhere".

If you wish to visit the campus in question, the easiest way to do so
from Bangkok is to go to the Victory Monument, and get onto Bus #515.
In addition to the number (515), this bus does have the toponym
"Salaya" written on it in English --and the campus in question is
"Mahidol Salaya".  This is genuinely easier even than taking a taxi
(not to mention train --which I also tried).  When you buy a ticket,
the only Thai you need to know is to repeat the name of the college
(at most, one could say, /Bai Kollet Mahidon Salaya/ --and then the
ticket-seller on board would know to tell you to get off when you come
to the correct location).  The bus travels by the same major highway
that leads to the airport, and then passes the college campus almost
immediately after it turns off of the highway; thus, it is easy to see
(on your left), and you will surely notice when you have suddenly made
the 90-degree turn off of the major highway into the town of "Salaya"
(you won't see anything like a town from the campus, however).

I met with Prof. Bodhi, and spoke with him for a little under two hours.


(3) NATIONAL LIBRARY

The national library has much changed in the three years since I saw
it first (or: last).

The first two floors have been entirely refurbished, and rooms that
used to be sweltering hot, and full of the polluted dust of the
street, are now "sealed" and air-conditioned.  The locations of the
books are largely unchanged.  Thus, I had the slightly surreal
experience of walking into the main room of the second floor
collection, and walking directly to the location of the linguistics
section, and the sub-section on Pali, while the actual appearance of
the room had utterly changed since I had last taken those same steps
through it.

The bathrooms, too, have made a leap into the modern era (but bring
your own toilet paper).

Unfortunately, while the 4th floor (bastion of conservatism that it
is!) has not changed a bit, all of the non-Thai script (Pali)
materials that used to be on the second floor were removed to the 4th.
  Thus, the Mon Tipitaka, _inter alia_ is now nearly impossible to get
at, along with the manuscripts on the 4th floor.  Start writing those
letters to parliament if you want permission to use the resources
there.

If you have not arranged access to the 4th floor collections in
advance, there is now hardly any reason for a Pali researcher to go
there.  The English-language resources on Pali/Buddhism are still in a
strangely organized room "to one side of" the main room on religion.


(4) MUSEUMS

Museums were the reason that I originally lived in Bangkok (now over
three years ago) --and two of the projects I was sent there to work on
are now manifest in brick.

One of the two, "TCDC" (Thai Creative & Design Centre) is not salient
to this list; however, the National Discovery Museum Institute
("NDMI") is worth noting briefly here.

The NDMI was created to challenge the both the orthodoxy of Thai
museology, and the official historiography (cf. Prince Damrong, etc.)
still found echoed in the National Museums throughout Thailand.

Unfortunately, it replaces one "fictional history" with another, and
many of the fictions will be especially painful for a Pali scholar to
witness --especially as (re-)stated in such a newly opened
institution.

A large part of the museum is dedicated to "retrenching" the myth of
Suvannabhumi, including the (repeatedly stated) assertion that
Ashoka's two missionaries were sent there (viz., "here").

The illusory nature of this claim (or even the notion that the edicts
of Ashoka mention Suvannabhumi as a destination of his missionaries)
has already been discussed on this list.

Other long-since-debunked notions, such as the equivalence of "Siam"
with modern Thailand in Chinese dynastic records (circa 2,000 years
ago), are employed with no more tact than the name of Ashoka.

A long narrative that emphasizes the peaceful co-existence of multiple
races (in "Suvannabhumi" then and in Thailand now) begins with the
absurd racialist premise that "Homo erectus, 'Peking Man' evolved into
today's Mongoloid element, while 'Java man' provided the Australoid
input today."

Despite everything we know about migrations and the non-continuity of
Thailand's population, it is boldly asserted that "Lampang man" of
500,000 years ago, could be among "the earliest ancestors of the
Siamese people".  No, he couldn't.

Quite a number of politically charged claims are made about Buddhism
itself, and, sadly, almost all of them are either historically false
or wildly misleading.  As part of the retelling of history minus
slavery and warfare, it is essential to mis-represent Buddhism as
"uniting" the people of the putative Suvannabhumi, "as it failed to do
in India" (!) ... "Thus in Suvarnabhumi, Animism, Buddhism and
Hinduism fitted [sic.] together so perfectly that now only scholars
can distinguish them".

Perhaps the scholars working for the museum ought to go ahead and
distinguish them.

It is asserted that Ayudhaya ruled over all of the "city states" of
Suvannabhumi (which is defined as stretching from Burma to Cambodia!)
starting from the 14th century; among the examples of such alleged
"city states" under Ayudhaya's dominion are Lan Xang ("Lanchang"),
Lavo and Sukhothai.  What was formerly "the Sukhothai period" is
actually deleted from history --along with any notion of Lanna's
independence (not to mention Cambodia, Laos, etc.!).

This pseudohistory is a self-conscious attempt to replace the
"nationalist" and "racialist" narratives of the past; and it does so
by denying the existence of "national" and discrete "ethnic" entities
in pre-modern South-East Asia --and then subordinates the histories of
all of the "city-states" (that remain after national and ethnic
toponyms are removed from the map) as supposed vassals to the kingdom
of Ayudhaya.

This effectively deletes Cambodia from the history of South-East Asia
(something many Thai nationalists have attempted to do before in their
historiographies) and relegates Burma to an extremely shadowy role,
until its (inconvenient) conquest of Ayudhaya (viz., the only war
mentioned in the entire historical portion of the museum).  Dvaravati
is described repeatedly as a multi-ethnic society, too, and while this
may be politically preferable to the old narrative of the Thais
conquering and enslaving the non-Thais, it only serves to mystify the
real ethnicity of each of the "city states" described --and to further
obfuscate the question of when and where the Thais/Tais migrated (and
who was, so to speak, "pre-Thai").

Students of Thai culture and anthropology will here see another
attempt at writing the myth of the "noble savage" in Thailand.  The
Chinese dynastic records actually show that Thailand exported natural
forest products (including resins and medicines that were tremendously
valuable in the ancient world), and imported metals, gold, etc.
(resulting in a well-documented balance-of-trade problem for the
Chinese) --but the museum sets out to prove the very opposite instead.
  It is asserted that the Thai "noble savages" were great producers and
exporters of metals and gold to the world.

Reflecting nothing other than modern, bourgeois preoccupations, the
museum goes on to say, "Rice cultivation may have reasons [sic.] for
permanent settlement, but it did not necessarily lead to growth and
development of towns and states.  What was it that made Suvarnabhumi
so important, attracting outsiders to seek its wealth?  Certainly not
rice and bamboo!"

On the contrary, the crucial factor for the development of cities and
ports for international trade was NOTHING OTHER than rice --viz., the
need to produce sufficient rice not only to sustain a large
population, but to load up trade ships for long, slow journeys along
the shores.  Rice, forest products, and slavery were the crucial
factors in the history of trading empires as they rose and fell in
South-East Asia.  The protracted claims about early Thai metal-workers
are about as absurd as claiming that Cambodia was exporting fine
porcelain to China; very simply, it was the other way around.

The main point of the "new historiography" of the NDMI seems to be the
anachronistic projection of an idealized multi-ethnic Bangkok onto
previous periods of history --all the way back to the stone age.  The
"bad" old narrative of one race conquering and enslaving another has
been replaced by an equally flawed new narrative in which slavery (and
feudalism) has completely disappeared --and wars between states have
been reduced to a very minor part of history.

The history continues into the modern period, presenting the dictator
Phibun ("Phibul Songkran") as if he had invented racism, and racial
nationalism, in Thailand.  The enslavement of non-Thais by Thais seems
to just pop up as a novel idea in 20th century propaganda, with no
historical precedent.  Thus, the (supposed) multi-ethnic utopia comes
to an abrupt halt in the modern era.  Apparently, Phibun is the only
historical figure whom it is safe for the curators to blame.  As bad
as this pseudohistory is, it is difficult to imagine any contemporary
scholar wanting to take on the thankless task of defending Phibun's
(odious) role in history against this slight.


(5) PUBLISHERS

It is remarkable that (a) White Lotus, (b) Silkworm, and (c) Orchid
Press, are all interested in publishing materials on Pali.  The latter
two were founded later, and their business model follows the first
(viz., they openly sought to emulate White Lotus) --and, of course,
none of them make any money.

Thus, Bangkok has an unusual concentration of private-sector
publishers that are willing to support scholarship in our field
--apparently with a degree of disinterest.

E.M.

#2342
From: "num sitdhiraksa" <sinsk@mahidol.ac.th> 
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2008 11:14 pm 
Subject: Re: Things Pali in Bangkok, 2008 

Hi,

Just like to add some more little information.  There is also a popular Pali
teaching school in Thai at Wat Mahathat, section 25. I used to study very
basic Pali there briefly. I remember my very first lesson is to pronounce
the Pali basic alphabet correctly. I was very fun for me. Although we use
Thai alphabets in writing Pali, the sound in Pali is not exactly similar to
usual Thai pronunciation. Most of the Pali masters here have connection with
Wat Tha Ma-O in Lampang, most of the masters also went to study Pali in
Myanmar. The library at section 25 has extensive collection of Pali
textbooks. There are some collection in English, most are in Myanmar and
some are in Thai.

To go to Salaya, you can get a free ride by a campus bus. They depart almost
every 30 mins, from Ramathibodi Hospital, and Faculty of Science, Rama VI
road, and also at Siriraj Hospital Campus close to the train station that
the train go to Salaya.

Best wishes,

Num

On Feb 3, 2008 6:46 PM, Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> wrote:

>   A short report on some places and resources related to Pali studies in
> Bangkok, 2008.
>
> _Table of contents_
> (1) Notes on Chulalongkorn University
> (2) Notes on Mahidol-Salaya
> (3) Notes on the National Library
> (4) Notes on Museums & Historiography
> (5) Short note on publishers

#2343
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2008 11:23 pm 
Subject: Re: Things Pali in Bangkok, 2008

Nan,

   Thanks very much for the tip; I am interested in investigating any
"new leads" here in Bangkok.  I am stuck here rather longer than I
expected to be.

   I take it that you refer to "Wat Mahathat Yuwarajarangsarit
Rajaworamahavihara" ... ?

   I'm a bit surprised, if that is the one under "Burmese influence" as
that is one of the "Big 6" Royal Temples, viz.,

http://www.dhammathai.org/watthai/bangkok/eng/watmahathat_e.php

E.M.

#2344
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2008 9:00 pm 
Subject: Meeting with Ven. Ashin Thitzana 

Dear Members,

I'm now back from my train trip to Montreal and my meeting with U Thitzana
whom I hadn't seen since 1982.  I had received an email message from him on
Jan. 17 informing me of his upcoming visit and his wish to see me. I was
fortunate to find someone from Toronto to accompany me as my guide and
interpreter. With a significant hearing loss and very poor eyesight it would
have been doubly difficult for me to undertake such a trip alone without
some assistance in such situations as navigating through the subway systems
of Toronto and Montreal during the rush hours. The last time I was in
downtown Montreal was in 1978 on my return from a month long meditation
retreat at IMS in Barre, MA (in the States). In those days I was much more
capable of travelling alone, and even hitch-hiking or cycling on major
highways, e.g., I cycled across Canada to BC in 1971 and again through the
Adirondacks in upper NY state in 1979.

On Feb. 5, we arrived late in the middle of the afternoon at the Montreal
train station and about an hour later, after a meal at a restaurant in the
station, proceeded to make our way to the Pannarama Meditation Center in
Laval just north of Montreal where we were to meet U Thitzana. Two men from
the centre met us at a certain subway station and drove us the rest of the
way. The centre was founded by the Vietnamese monk, Ven. Aggasami, and is
located in a rural area and on the river. Although there are a number of
buildings on the premises, we were only in one of them, presumably, the main
one. This was where we met U Thitzana, slept, ate, and attended two of his
Dhamma talks in the shrine room upstairs. I could smell the incense as soon
as we walked into the building. We were seated at a round table to be soon
greeted by U Thitzana. We talked for maybe an hour during which time tea was
served and U Thitzana went and got Ven. Aggasami to come and meet us.

U Thitzana was giving two two-hour Dhamma talks per day until the start of
the 9-day Vipassanaa retreat on Sat. Feb. 9 which he is now leading. My
guide and I stayed one night at the centre and left at 4:00 PM the following
day after the afternoon Dhamma talk to return to Toronto by train. The theme
of the first talk we attended was: the benefits of a spiritual life, and the
second: samatha and vipassanaa. U Thitzana would give these talks in English
with a woman translating them into Vietnamese to a small audience of about a
dozen, most of whom were Vietnamese. The sound of her translation was quite
pleasant to listen to. I had a lot of contact with U Thitzana who made us
feel very special and welcome. The hospitality and the Vietnamese food was
excellent and everyone was very friendly and some took pictures of us
with U Thitzana. We had some interesting discussions about Pali and
Kaccaayana's grammar and he even gave me some help with Kacc 10 which I will
write about in another message. He says you can learn Pali much more quickly
with a good Pali teacher. Typically, it takes two years to learn Kaccaayana
but a bright student could learn it in one year. He is currently writing a
Pali grammar for Burmese students which he hopes to have translated into
English for English-speaking students. I have offered to help with the
proofreading.

All in all, I think the trip was a great success and some good things could
come out of it in the future such as meeting U Thitzana again, perhaps in
Toronto, and some more Pali lessons too. He will soon be heading to India
for a long stay and then on to Singapore to teach some Abhidhamma. He's 57,
about 3 years younger than myself.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2345
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:23 am 
Subject: compounds in -guu 

Dear Pali study group

Pali compounds like addha-guu and paara-guu have been mentioned recently.
They are peculiar because they end in -guu instead of the expected form -ga
like in Sanskrit. However, -guu is also found in Sanskrit in the same sense
as -ga, which is generally not known to Pali scholars, who sometimes offer
fantastic explanations of the occurrences. There is, however, no agreement
about how to interpret the evidence in Sanskrit. In the case of -guu we are
in all likelihood dealing with a form of the root gaa, etymologically
derived from ge + a consonantal phoneme (a so-called laryngeal) followed by
a labial appendix like w. Interestingly roots ending in aa like sthaa, paa,
jñaa, and daa have cognate forms in u/uu, in Sanskrit and other
Indo-European languages like Latin and Greek. Interestingly we have -ññuu in
Pali < jñaa.

Ole Holten Pind

#2346
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:32 am 
Subject: U Thitzana's notes on Kacc 10

Dear Members,

As mentioned in my previous message, U Thitzana gave some help on Kacc
10. He jotted down some notes which I have reproduced below. I wanted him to
explain the meaning of the term 'adho.thita.m' in the sutta. I'm afraid I'm
not satisfied with the explanation and I will need to ask him some further
questions. But it is apparent from the notes below that what is 'placed down
under' is the vowel. This suggests to me that the elided vowel is not
actually elided but covered over or hidden by one of the coalescing vowels.
This reminds me of the explanation given at Sd 28 with the likeness of the
hidden vowel to the blade of a knife in its sheath. The main problem I have
is that I think 'adho.thita.m' in Kacc 10 is describing a consonant, not a
vowel. Anyway, here are his notes [comments in square brackets mine]:

pubbam = previous
adho.thitam = placed down under
assara.m = having done without vowel
sarena = from sara (vowel)
viyojaye = should detach, be separated

Contraction: sova = so + eva (he + only)
Expansion: so + eva
Recontraction: so + /eva [the -o and e- are both double-underlined] = sova

Contraction: yassindriyaani
Expansion: yassa + indriyaani [the final -a of yassa is double underlined
which he notes:] "located down under"
To recontract =
   (1) Remove 'a' from 'ss' [-ssa]
   (2) Then attach 'ss' to 'in'
It becomes contracted 'yassindriyaani'

Best wishes,
Jim

#2347
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:26 am 
Subject: Re: compounds in -guu

Dear Ole,

<< In the case of -guu we are in all likelihood dealing with a form of the
root gaa, etymologically derived from ge + a consonantal phoneme (a
so-called laryngeal) followed by a labial appendix like w. >>

By "the root gaa" are you referring to a Pali/Sanskrit root or perhaps some
(proto-)IE root? In Paa.nini's Dhaatupaa.tha.h there is listed "gaa stutau"
(juhotyaadi class) and in Aggava.msa's Dhaatumaalaa there is "109 gaa
gatiya.m". For "ge", Aggava.msa has "91 ge sadde" which corresponds to the
Sanskrit root "gai "sabde". The Pali grammarians derive "-guu" from the root
"gam". See, for instance, Kacc 536 (paaraadigamimhaa ruu). The "r" of the
suffix "ruu" is an indicatory letter that is dropped and Kacc 541 explains
how gam + uu becomes guu.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2348
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:37 pm 
Subject: New version of CSCD 

Dear Members,

There is a new software for Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka as prepared by
the Vipassana Research Institute available from Installation at Chattha
Sangayana Tipitaka 4.0 Blog <http://www.tipitaka.org/cst/installation/>

The previous software on the CSCD was outdated and had some bugs (the
program crashed during searches and caused overloading of the CPU),
which should have been overcome in this new version, the Beta version. I
have not been able to download it yet due to the slow internet
connection here.

Best wishes,
                     Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

#2349
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:41 am 
Subject: Re: New version of CSCD

Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,

Thank-you for the information. I first became aware of the new software late
last November. Frank Snow of VRI had asked me if I would be interested in
testing the Beta version of CST4 or knew anyone who would. I told him that
my 56k internet connection was too slow to download the software and asked
if this could be mailed to me on a CD. He had someone from Toronto mail me
the Beta 11 version which I installed and have tested it a bit. It only
works on an XP or Vista operating system but apparently a version is in the
works for the MAC OS. On an older XP system you will probably have to
upgrade to .NET Framework 2.0 (another 23 MB download).

I see that Beta 12 (24.4 MB) has since replaced Beta 11. I did notice a bug
with the search feature in Beta 11 but hopefully that has now been fixed.
All the texts are amazingly compressed in the 24.4 MB installation program.
I noticed that the texts seem about the same as the ones on CSCD 3 and
wonder if any of them have been corrected. It seems that the typos I noticed
in the Kaccaayanabyaakara.na text on CSCD 3 still remain uncorrected in Beta
11.

Best wishes,
Jim
P.S. I was surprised to learn about Morley Chalmers' involvement with BPS. I
first met him about 30 years ago and he was the one who recently accompanied
me to Laval, Quebec to meet U Thitzana. It's a small world.

> Dear Members,
>
> There is a new software for Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka as prepared by
> the Vipassana Research Institute available from Installation at Chattha
> Sangayana Tipitaka 4.0 Blog <http://www.tipitaka.org/cst/installation/>
>
> The previous software on the CSCD was outdated and had some bugs (the
> program crashed during searches and caused overloading of the CPU),
> which should have been overcome in this new version, the Beta version. I
> have not been able to download it yet due to the slow internet
> connection here.
>
> Best wishes,
>                    Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

#2350
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:01 am 
Subject: Re: New version of CSCD

Dear Jim,

Thanks. I downloaded and installed the program. The search function is not
so advanced yet as as in the older version because it does not allow one to
see a list of occurrences of a word in its context in the text with up to
ten words before or after. This was a function I found quite useful.
Further, no accompanying words can be searched for. Pagenumbers of the PTS
and other eds. are not given. This is also a loss. I hope that they
eventually fix these things.
It seems that the Thai Tipitaka project is also intending to put their
edition of the Sixth Council Tipitaka online in the near future.

Regards,
                   Bhikkhu Nyanatusita


On 17/02/2008, Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>   Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,
>
> Thank-you for the information. I first became aware of the new software
> late
> last November. Frank Snow of VRI had asked me if I would be interested in
> testing the Beta version of CST4 or knew anyone who would. I told him that

#2351
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:44 am 
Subject: SV: compounds in -guu 

Dear Jim,

<By "the root gaa" are you referring to a Pali/Sanskrit root or perhaps some
(proto-)IE root? In Paa.nini's Dhaatupaa.tha.h there is listed "gaa stutau">

I am referring to the root gaa recorded in Sanskrit literature, cf. e.g.
Whitney´s Roots and primary derivatives. It´s a proto-Indoeuropean
reconstruction. It is meant to be geH (H standing for a supposed laryngeal
with labial appendix /w/)

<The Pali grammarians derive "-guu" from the root "gam". See, for instance,
Kacc 536 (paaraadigamimhaa ruu). The "r" of the suffix "ruu" is an
indicatory letter that is dropped and Kacc 541 explains how gam + uu becomes
guu>

Yes, this is interesting, because it shows that they interpreted -guu as ga
like in Sanskrit. For instance, gata < gam is the zero grade of gam < gm+ta.
However, -guu is invariably ending in a long vowel, and that´s a problem,
which is difficult to explain with reference to the root gam.

Best wishes,
Ole

#2352
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:54 pm 
Subject: Thesis entitled 'The Chronology of the Pali Canon: the case of the aorist

Paul Kingsbury graduated summa cum laude in linguistics from Ohio
State University in 1993 with a thesis on "Some sources for L-words in
Sanskrit". He subsequently entered the University of Pennsylvania to
study historical linguistics and Sanskrit, but (like most historical
students) was diverted to computational issues. He joined the Propbank
project in 2000 and soon thereafter engineered a major rethinking of
the methods and goals of the project, in order to make the annotation
linguistically meaningful. He completed his doctorate in 2002 with a
thesis entitled 'The Chronology of the Pali Canon: the case of the
aorist'.

#2353
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:15 am 
Subject: Website update; De Silva, etc. 

I omitted to mention that the update to my website finally
"eventuated" --and so De Silva's textbook is now (finally) available
for download along with other resources.

www.pali.pratyeka.org

My situation remains quite difficult and uncertain.  Circumstances
have conspired to make progress on Kaccayana impossible.

I'm tired of living like a vagabond.  To sit at the same desk, or
sleep in the same bed, for a sequence of days, has been impossible for
too long.

I've made bone-breaking efforts to establish a new life (or foothold)
here in Kunming --but this, too, may end in failure due to a purely
bureaucratic error (made by one of the universities) in my work-visa
application.

E.M.

#2354
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:36 am 
Subject: RE: Thesis entitled 'The Chronology of the Pali Canon: the case of the aorist 

It appears that this thesis can be downloaded from
http://repository.upenn.edu/dissertations/AAI3073020/

Regards
Mark


Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
University of Sydney



>
>Paul Kingsbury graduated summa cum laude in linguistics from Ohio
>State University in 1993 with a thesis on "Some sources for L-words in
>Sanskrit". He subsequently entered the University of Pennsylvania to
>study historical linguistics and Sanskrit, but (like most historical
>students) was diverted to computational issues. He joined the Propbank
>project in 2000 and soon thereafter engineered a major rethinking of
>the methods and goals of the project, in order to make the annotation
>linguistically meaningful. He completed his doctorate in 2002 with a
>thesis entitled 'The Chronology of the Pali Canon: the case of the
>aorist'.

#2355
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:36 am 
Subject: Candragomin's grammar 

Dear Members,

Dan Lusthaus wrote me a few off-list emails stemming from a Buddha-L
discussion on prapa~nca in which I had contributed a few quotes from Sp-.t
and Mahaaniddessa explaining what the term meant in the early Pali texts.
I'm just quoting below an excerpt from a recent email. I found it
interesting and thought it might be of interest to some of our members here.
I have never heard of Ka"syapa's Baalaavabodha. Does anyone know if this is
a Pali or a Sanskrit grammar (based on the Candravyaakara.na) ?

I'm planning to head back to my cottage next week for about a month stay.
The phone line there is disconnected until Mar. 28 and so I will be without
Internet access until then.

Best wishes,
Jim

An excerpt from an email sent to me by Dan Lusthaus on Feb. 26/08:

<< Returning to samjna, the early Buddhist Sanskrit grammar (used by
Buddhists in lieu of Panini-Patanjali) was the _Candra_, named after its author
Candra-gomin (not to be confused with the poet). Candra's nickname was
Asa.mj~naka - one theory being that wherever Panini uses the word samjna,
Candra instead used naaman. Another theory:

G. Cardona explains this: "Candragomin avoids using technical terms such as
v?ddhi, so that his grammar is characterized as asamj~nakam vyaakara.nam
'grammar lacking technical terms'." Cardona refers this to Kielhorn, 1886,
p. 246. George Cardona, Paa.nini: A Survey of Research, Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass

I think our reading and understanding of Buddhist materials -- especially
the early Pali texts which have many paninian echoes (largely unnoticed or
unrecognized) -- would be quite different if we paid more attention to the
Skt grammatical tradition. The Theravadins, in particular, slacked off on
this AFTER Buddhaghosa (one of whose major qualifications for being
commissioned to write/compile the Pali commentaries was that he was
thoroughly trained in and had mastered the SANSKRIT vyakarana tradition --
that, in fact, may have been his most important qualification). That
indicates (1) his contemporaries, while still holding vyakarana in the
highest respect and recognizing its importance, had themselves become
deficient in its practice; (2) they recognized that such knowledge was
indispensible for proper understanding of the tipitaka (which, since their
command was insufficient, implies they also knew they already had serious
problems understanding their own scriptures, especially the stickier points
and terminology/phraseology), and (3) once Buddhaghosa (or the complex of
activities, people, etc. that have come to be grouped metonymically under
his name) provided a more or less definitive version of how to read the
tipitaka, the efforts to raise the level of grammatical proficiency probably
slided further, since it was no longer as necessary. However

The Candra grammar disappeared from India after great circulation for many
centuries, but still the core of the Sanskrit grammar system taught in Srii
Lanka [Belvalkar, p51] since around 1200 CE a Srii Lankan monk named Kasyapa
did a popular recasting of the Candra grammar, called Baalaavabodha.
Eclipsed Candra in Srii Lanka.

Cf. Belvalkar, Shripad Krishna. _An Account of the Different Existing
Systems of Sanskrit Grammar_, Delhi: Bharatiya Vidya Prakashan, 1976 (2nd
revised ed.) >>

#2356
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 2, 2008 9:03 am 
Subject: Sanskrit (& Pali?) inscriptions in Yunnan 

There is, reportedly, one academic article in print (and on J-Stor) by
an American academc on "Sanskrit sources in Yunnan" --I must find a
copy somehow, but I do not even know the author's name.

I have, thus far, found only the following (salient but not quite the
article described to me):

The Dharani Pillar of Kunming, Yunnan. A Legacy of Esoteric Buddhism
and Burial Rites of the Bai People in the Kingdom of Dali (937-1253)
Angela F. Howard
Artibus Asiae, Vol. 57, No. 1/2 (1997), pp. 33-72
doi:10.2307/3249951
This article consists of 40 page(s).

E.M.

#2357
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 5:54 am 
Subject: Re: compounds in -guu 

I had thought that /vedaguu/ was one of the most commonly found examples.

To me, there is nothing irregular about it... except the explanation of it.

Doubtless the reference to /gam/ (etc.) is fanciful.

E.M.

#2358
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 9:21 am 
Subject: Re: compounds in -guu 

Eisel,

/vedaguu/ seems to occur only once in Kaccaayana in a sandhi example
(sa"nkhya.m nopeti vedaguu) in Kacc 14 but it can be found in the
Niruttidiipanii among the examples with the suffix /uu/ after the root
/gam/:

780.gamaa ruu {ka0 534; ruu0 592; nii0 1118}. kammupapadaa gamamhaa ruu hoti
kattari. `raanubandhentasaraadissaa'ti sabbadhaatvantalopo. paara.m gacchati
siilenaati paaraguu, veda.m vuccati aggamagga~naa.na.m, veda.m gacchatiiti
vedaguu, addhaana.m gacchatiiti addhaguu.

Fanciful or not, all the traditional Pali grammars I've seen so far agree
that -guu comes from the root /gam/.

There seems to be two major approaches to studying Pali, the Western or
skeptical approach and the Eastern or traditional approach. Both approaches
are welcome on this list.

Best wishes,
Jim

>I had thought that /vedaguu/ was one of the most commonly found examples.
>
> To me, there is nothing irregular about it... except the explanation of
> it.
>
> Doubtless the reference to /gam/ (etc.) is fanciful.
>
> E.M.

#2359
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Mar 4, 2008 11:44 am 
Subject: words ending in guu, once more 

Dear Jim and Eisel,

Words ending in -guu or ~nuu and the like are difficult to explain without
intrepreting them with the background of Indoeuropean (IE)reconstruction
attempts. The problem is that -guu or ga, and ~nuu or ~na are not explicable
without some basic phonological assumptions of IE reconstruction. In any
case, the ending -uu is not easily interpretable as derived from -gam, but
rather from the root -gaa. The only question is how to explain the ending
-uu. I have suggested an interpretation, but the necessary discussion about
how to interpret these forms have not yet entered modern Sanskrit
etymological dictionaries. The same type of forms as those found in Pali are
recorded in Sanskrit, which is important.

Best wishes,
Ole Pind

#2360
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 10:42 am 
Subject: Re: words ending in guu, once more

Dear Ole,

Understandably the traditional Sanskrit and Pali grammars would not
explain it in a way that is acceptable in terms of modern phonological
theories. For endings in P. -guu or Skt. -ga, the Kaa"sikaav.rtti derives
-ga from the root gam + .da (. . . game.h .dapratyayo bhavati || ad
Panini III:2.48). Perhaps the root 'gaa' (to go) would have been a better
choice: ga < gaa + .da like j~na < j~naa + ka (Panini III:1.135). It is
interesting that the -u suffix (ruu) in Pali 'bhikkhu' is the same suffix
used for -guu with shortening of 'uu' to 'u' according to Mmd ad
Kacc-v 403 (Be). The explanations presented in the traditional grammars
are adequate for my purposes given that my main interest is in learning how
the language was understood by the traditional grammarians and commentators.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim and Eisel,
>
> Words ending in -guu or ~nuu and the like are difficult to explain without
> intrepreting them with the background of Indoeuropean (IE)reconstruction
> attempts. The problem is that -guu or ga, and ~nuu or ~na are not
> explicable without some basic phonological assumptions of IE
> reconstruction. In any case, the ending -uu is not easily interpretable as
> derived from -gam, but rather from the root -gaa. The only question is
> how to explain the ending -uu. I have suggested an interpretation, but the
> necessary discussion  about how to interpret these forms have not yet
> entered modern Sanskrit etymological dictionaries. The same type of forms
> as those found in Pali  are recorded in Sanskrit, which is important.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ole Pind

#2361
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 11:01 am 
Subject: Re: words ending in guu, once more

Jim,

Yes, there is an obvious sense in which "Vedaguu" is no different from
"Garuu" ...

... however, for the same reasons that we cannot explain "Garuu" as
"ga + ram", we cannot really explain "Vedaguu" as "veda + gam" ...

... but of course I agree that such explanations are of real interest
--even if they are fanciful, and sometimes precisely because they are
fanciful.

I insist, once again, that the true origin of the English word
"butterfly" is completely unrelated to "butter", nor has anything to
do with "flies" , but instead arises from the inverse-pseudo-parataxis
of "flutter-by".

   Perchance to see one flutter by,
   Therefore, we say, "butter-fly".

I sincerely hope, however, that this explanation is not mistakenly
appropriated as fact by the etymologists of some 2,500 years into the
future.

E.M.

#2362
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 7:17 pm 
Subject: Re: words ending in guu, once more

Eisel,

> Yes, there is an obvious sense in which "Vedaguu" is no different from
> "Garuu" ...
>
> ... however, for the same reasons that we cannot explain "Garuu" as
> "ga + ram", we cannot really explain "Vedaguu" as "veda + gam" ...

We can explain 'vedaguu' as 'veda + gam + ruu' if we follow the rules of
Kaccaayana, etc. The Saddaniiti tells us that 'garu' comes from the root
'gar' (rise up, ascend) and gives several meaningful interpretations of the
word.

> ... but of course I agree that such explanations are of real interest
> --even if they are fanciful, and sometimes precisely because they are
> fanciful.

And maybe even hilarious at times, like your 'butterfly'.

Jim

#2363
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 12:35 pm 
Subject: Abhidhanapadipika Study

Dear group,

If anyone is interested to get a copy of /Abhidhanapradipika : A Study
of the Text and Its Commentary/ by Bhikkhu Medagama Nandawansa. 2001.
Bhandarkar Oriental Series. (Bhandakar Research Institute, Pune)/, /then
please let me know. I can arrange to get a few copies from India for the
BPS. It will not be cheap though. The cost will be about US $ 35– 40-,
not including mailing cost. I am not sure, but I assume that it is a
large, thesis size study of the text. Did anyone read this study?. Is it
of good quality?

I was hoping to get another book (P. V. Bapat,/ Shan-chien-pi-po-sha; a
Chinese version by Sanghabhadra of Samantapasadika, commentary on Pali
Vinaya/) from this institute, but it seems that it is out of stock.

Regards,
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

#2364
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 10:14 pm 
Subject: Re: Abhidhanapadipika Study 

Bhante,

   I reviewed this book and posted my comments to this list a few years ago.

   If you search through the list's archives, you'll find my comments.

   I recently donated my copy to the Vientiane E.F.E.O. library (unable
to carry it with me to China, etc.)

   Re: postage fees, it is indeed a large tome --as it includes the
full text of the commentary, etc.

E.M.

#2365
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Mar 8, 2008 10:05 pm 
Subject: Re: Abhidhanapadipika Study 

Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,

I'm interested in getting a copy of this work from BPS. The book was brought
up a few times before in this group. Eisel acquired it in 2006 and gave a
brief review of it in a message dated Oct. 28, 2006. The commentary is that
of Caturangabala (late 14th cent.) which is also available on the CSCD disk
or the tipitaka.org website. I will be contacting you off-list about my book
order.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear group,
>
> If anyone is interested to get a copy of /Abhidhanapradipika : A Study
> of the Text and Its Commentary/ by Bhikkhu Medagama Nandawansa. 2001.
> Bhandarkar Oriental Series. (Bhandakar Research Institute, Pune)/, /then
> please let me know. I can arrange to get a few copies from India for the
> BPS. It will not be cheap though. The cost will be about US $ 35– 40-,
> not including mailing cost. I am not sure, but I assume that it is a
> large, thesis size study of the text. Did anyone read this study?. Is it
> of good quality?

#2366
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:32 pm 
Subject: Yunnan inscriptions "must have" article = 1947? 

Apparently the one-and-only article on Sanskrit epigraphy in Yunnan
dates to 1947!  I'd be delighted to learn if this is incorrect.  See
citation below.

E.M.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
> As mentioned, my current "must have" article is the author-unknown
> piece on Sanskrit Sources in Yunnan ... that's the only lead I've got.
>  Once I've read that, I can start fooling around with the various
> stone inscriptions, etc., that are easily accessed here in Yunnan.


Sanskrit Inscriptions from Yunnan, I (and the Dates of Foundation of
the Main Pagodas in that …
  W Liebenthal - Monumenta Serica, 1947 - buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw

is this it?

[...]

Ye gods!  That article is dated 1947!

If that really is the one-and-only article on the subject... it
certainly is consistent with my impression that precisely nobody has
investigated anything in Sk/Pali here since the *ultural *evolution.

#2367
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:23 am 
Subject: Yunnan inscriptions "must have" article = 1947?

---------- Forwarded message ----------

According to the monumenta serica website, this particular volume is
out of print. It does list a full table of contents but there didn't
seem to be anything of additional interest in that field. <http://
www.monumenta-serica.de/ms_home.htm> choose Publications and then
Vols 1-18 if you're interested. The University of Michigan has a copy
but that doesn't really help, does it. I'll put some feelers out
there...

A few other things of potential interest showed up on the
buddhism.lib.ntu.tw site form the 50s.

K

#2368
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:22 am 
Subject: vandite 

Dear Pali freinds,

vandite is acc. pl. qualifying paade by implication. Take a look at D II 164
narrating the events just before the Buddha´s cremation. All other examples
involving vandite imitate this important text.

Regards,
Ole Holten Pind

#2369
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:30 pm 
Subject: Re: vandite 

Dear Ole,

Thank-you for this. I hadn't thought of the possibility of 'vandite' being
in the acc pl. The passage in which this 'vandite' occurs is:

vandite ca panaayasmataa mahaakassapena tehi ca pa~ncahi
bhikkhusatehi sayameva bhagavato citako pajjali. --- D II 164

and there is ". . . bhagavato paade sirasaa vandi.msu." in the previous
sentence.

But if you take 'vandite' with 'paade' both in the accusative plural, then
what is the usage of the accusative? Surely, it can't be the object of the
verb. It would make more sense if it were in the nom. pl.: 'And, moreover,
(the feet) venerated by the Ven. Mahaakassapa. . .'

Regarding the use of 'vandite' at Ja I 88, Sp V 1006 takes it as a loc.
sing. with 'bhagavati':  suddhodanamahaaraajena pana vandite bhagavati. . .
'but/and while the Blessed One was venerated by the Great King Suddhodana. .
." 'bhagavati' is not found at Ja I 88 but both passages have 'paade
vandaami' in the previous sentence.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< vandite is acc. pl. qualifying paade by implication. Take a look at D II
164 narrating the events just before the Buddha´s cremation. All other
examples involving vandite imitate this important text.>>

#2370
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:34 pm 
Subject: Yunnan Update, Pali MS, inscriptions, etc. 

Very briefly:

It appears that there is some significant research to be done here,
both regarding stone inscriptions and palm-leaf manuscripts.

As with everywhere in Asia, a large part of that research is in
determining precisely what is meant by "there is nothing" (or the
obverse claim: "everything was destroyed").  What must be re-iterated
is simply that this problem is universal to the field, not peculiar to
China, viz., the first question in Cambodia, Laos, etc., would be the
same ("what exactly do you mean by 'there is nothing'?").

I've been visiting various libraries to examine the small numbers of
manuscripts, etc., and speaking with academics about both the
materials on stone and those on palm & mulberry-paper.

At a minimum, this research could spin off a small article for the
JPTS or equivalent.

Prior to my arrival here, it genuinely seems that nobody had taken the
tally of precisely how much of "nothing" there is to study here since
1947 --and there is indeed a great deal of "nothing" relative to any
one scholar's ambitions.  (Again: the same could be said of Northern
Laos, etc. --this problem is not uniquely Yunnanese, nor is it worse
in China than elsewhere)

I've been invited to contribute a paper (in Chinese) to the Journal of
the Ethnic Minority University --and will endeavour to compose
something in very simple English, to then render into Chinese (I've
yet to meet an appropriate translator...).

I've also been invited to present the paper, or something similar, at
one of a pair of conferences that are on the horizon (here in
Kunming).  For those who have been following my recent reports from
the Thai academic milieu, it should indeed be evident that both the
individuals and institutions here have been more welcoming and more
helpful than elsewhere --and have shown genuine interest in my work,
etc.

There is an endemic and ongoing problem of the sale/theft of stone
inscriptions in never-translated ancient Indian languages (i.e.,
variously assumed to be Sk., Pali, or misc. Prakrit --possibly just
very crude Pali mistaken as the others, etc., given the religious
context of Nan Chao, etc.).

One academic [name unstated] is "talking tough" about cultural
preservation --viz., preventing the ongoing "looting" of these
inscriptions.  I genuinely do not know if his efforts will prove to be
dangerous --as there is both money involved, and at least some degree
of embarassment for some responsible authorities.

Apart from that academic, I've heard several reports of how "Hong Kong
businessmen" simply buy these stones (primarily from around the lake
adjacent to Dali, but also as far away as the Sino-Burmese
borderlands) --and there is always some confusion when I ask, "yes,
but who do they buy them FROM?" --i.e., who presents themselves as the
owners to collect the money.

The best answer I have heard is, "People in the temple".

The institutional context here is in no way comparable to any other
Theravada country or region.  Who really is meant by such "people in
the temple" is very difficult to say --even where the outward form of
the responsible authorities is made to resemble Thai norms.

E.M.
www.pali.pratyeka.org

#2371
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:02 am 
Subject: vandite 

Dear Jim,

paada m. is in the plural nominative paadaa, the acc., however, is paade.
The problem with the PTS edition is that the editor put a full stop after
vandi.msu, which has to be converted to a comma as the following vandite ca
is apposition to paade of the previous sentence: "and (feet of Bhagavat)
being honoured by Mahaakassapa and the five hundred monks, the funeral pile
of Bhagavat started burning by itself."

Ole

#2372
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:04 am 
Subject: Re: vandite 

This message appeared out of the blue. Have I been missing  some
messages again?

Anyway, for what it is worth, I agree that paada is acc. plural. I would
call that construction 'accusative absolute'.

Lance Cousins


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Jim,
>
> paada m. is in the plural nominative paadaa, the acc., however, is paade.
> The problem with the PTS edition is that the editor put a full stop after
> vandi.msu, which has to be converted to a comma as the following vandite ca
> is apposition to paade of the previous sentence: "and (feet of Bhagavat)
> being honoured by Mahaakassapa and the five hundred monks, the funeral pile
> of Bhagavat started burning by itself."
>
> Ole
>

#2373
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:10 am 
Subject: Re: vandite 

Dear Ole & Lance,

It's making sense now and I think you're probably right. The "ca' after
"vandite" certainly suggests a connection between "vandite" and "paade".
Unfortunately, there is no "ca' in "ra~n~naa pana vandite" in the Ja I 88
passage. Anyway, I'll pass on your solution to the other Pali list.

Lance, I checked your subscription for bouncing but everything seems fine.
The list hasn't been busy (55 messages posted so far this year). Sometimes
one has to check to see if wanted messages aren't being weeded out as spam.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> paada m. is in the plural nominative paadaa, the acc., however, is paade.
> The problem with the PTS edition is that the editor put a full stop after
> vandi.msu, which has to be converted to a comma as the following vandite
> ca is apposition to paade of the previous sentence: "and (feet of
> Bhagavat) being honoured by Mahaakassapa and the five hundred monks,
> the funeral pile of Bhagavat started burning by itself."
>
> Ole

#2374
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:50 pm 
Subject: Dhp 1 & 2, according to Dr. Skilling 

Skilling has written something on the interpretation of Dhp 1 & 2,
perhaps the publication can be found by list-members in Sri Lanka:

Peter Skilling, !°Dhammas are as swit as thought!-, A note on Dhammapada 1
and 2 and their parallels,!± inJournal of the Centre for Buddhist
Studies, vol. V,
Centre for Buddhist Studies, Sri Lanka, 2007, pp. 23-49.

E.M.

#2375
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:34 am 
Subject: introducing a new member 

Dear List Members,

I wish to inform you that a new member has joined our list, the first to do
so this year. Her name is Susanne Goetz and she lives in Nakhon Pathom,
Thailand. You can call her 'Susi'. With her permission, I quote from her
message which describes her academic work which should be of interest to us:

<< I am a German Ph.D. student (Asien-Afrika-Institut, Universitaet
Hamburg), and I just finished my M.A. degree with two majors: Thai Studies
and Classical Indology.

My ideas about my Ph.D. thesis are still in an initial phase, the current
title is: "Translations of canonical Pali texts into Thai: A diachronical
study of the translation practice." (This includes examining Pali Grammars
and textbooks used in Thailand, especially those of the Prince Patriarch
Vajirananavarorasa, as it is him who has introduced this kind of stereotype
translation practice rendering different cases and verb forms into Thai in a
certain way, producing a somehow artificial "translation language".)

The title of my M.A. thesis, written in German language but probably
forthcoming as a book in English next year, is: "The Significance of Pali
and Sanskrit in the Word Coining Process of the Royal Institute of
Thailand". >>

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2376
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:33 am 
Subject: Re: introducing a new member 

    Susanne Goetz may be surprised that at least two of the other list
members have indeed been to Nakhon Pathom, viz., myself and (I
presume) Dr. McDaniel.

I was there _en route_ to That Phanom, etc., relatively long ago
--i.e., prior to my two-and-a-half-years of work in Laos.

If she has not already made contacts with the professors at
Maha-Sarakham, nearby, I would encourage her to find my lengthy
comments and descriptions of the resources (both human and manuscript)
at the institutions there --viz., in the "history" of this
discussion-list.

Re:
> Vajirananavarorasa, as it is him who has introduced this kind of stereotype
> translation practice rendering different cases and verb forms into Thai in a
> certain way, producing a somehow artificial "translation language".)

This is an extremely important point, and I am astounded that certain
Thai scholars (both foreign and ethnically Thai) are unaware of how
extremely facile and myopic the tradition of "Thai pseudo-Pali" there
really is.

The general belief is that "Pali Yai" (lit. Big Pali) supersedes "Pali
Noi" --but, on the contrary, the system of simplifications seems to
preclude and occlude any later exposure to "high" Pali grammar (viz.,
"Pali Yai" --the latter is theoretically supposed to include
Kaccayana).

Re:
> The title of my M.A. thesis, written in German language but probably
> forthcoming as a book in English next year, is: "The Significance of Pali
> and Sanskrit in the Word Coining Process of the Royal Institute of
> Thailand".

I would be delighted to discuss a White Lotus project to create a new
edition of a major (early) work on Thai etymology --as I have been
"fingered" to edit the Pali material, another scholar to edit the
Chinese etymological material, etc.

This project with/for White Lotus is "ongoing" --which is to say, in
truth, I don't have time for it right now, but mean to get back to it
in future, etc.

She can write to me off-list, if more appropriate.

E.M. 

#2377
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:50 pm 
Subject: Re: introducing a new member
l  
    Hi Eisel,

> Susanne Goetz may be surprised that at least two of the other list
> members have indeed been to Nakhon Pathom, viz., myself and (I
> presume) Dr. McDaniel.
>
> I was there _en route_ to That Phanom, etc., relatively long ago
> --i.e., prior to my two-and-a-half-years of work in Laos.

I think you're again confusing Nakhon Pathom with Nakhon Phanom. You made
exactly the same mistake in 2005 and now history is repeating itself. In
message #1227 Aug. 12, 2005, Justin wrote:

<< Although E.M. is absolutely correct about the importance of
That Phanom, that is not what this is referring to in the
transliteration. He is also correct that "nagarapa.thuum" is
Nakorn Pathom. However, Nakorn Phanom (the province of That
(Dhaatu) Phanom) in the far Northeast of Thailand and Nakorn
Pathom are two very different places. Nakorn Pathom is 30
kilometers northwest of Bangkok. >>

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2378
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:38 pm 
Subject: Re: introducing a new member 

    Jim,

>  I think you're again confusing Nakhon Pathom with Nakhon Phanom. You made
>  exactly the same mistake in 2005 and now history is repeating itself...

However, unlike 2005 --I have now been to both places!  Progress!

I recently visited N. Pathom _en route_ to Mahidon Salaya --took in
the museum, etc., there.

You're correct that N. Phanom is a very long way from N. Pathom.  The
latter is certainly preferable to living in downtown Bangkok.

To add to the confusion: N. Pathom (so close to Bangkok) is an
important source of Dvaravati-related materials --as is central Issan.
  Indeed, someone interested in Dvaravati would probably be well
advised to take in both the museum at N. Pathom and (e.g.) Khon Kaen
--the latter being at the opposite end of the country, closer to N.
Phanom.

E.M. 

#2379
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:50 am 
Subject: just the photo

    The photo couldn't be sent at the same time, a "demon" complained about the file
size, so now I send it extra.
Susi
--

#2380
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:53 am 
Subject: First message, now without attachment

    PS: I see, my M.A. thesis can't be sent, it's a little bit more than 1
megabyte...


Dear yahoogroup members,

I am looking forward to the coming correspondence with all of you. At the moment
I don't want to write much, but I will attach my M.A. thesis for those who are
interested to have a glance at it.

These days I am busy with preparations for my Ph.D. (and with applying for a
scholarship). You'll probably hear from me as soon as there is an unsolved
question or problem! Or maybe before, if there are interesting news or files to
share.

Kind regards

Susi

PS: I also attach a photo showing me (in red) on the recent "phiti wang
silaroek", a Brahmanic stone laying ceremony (for the construction of the new
building of the Sanskrit Studies Centre, Silpakorn University Bangkok, at
Phutthamonthon District of Nakhon Pathom; I have just finished teaching a
"Seminar on Sanskrit Epics and Puranas" at the Sanskrit Studies Centre,
presently in Talingchan (next building to the EFEO), Bangkok).

#2381
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:05 am 
Subject: Re: First message, now without attachment
l  
    Dear Susi,

Welcome to the group! The reason why your photo and thesis couldn't be sent
is because the group settings don't allow attachments. You can, however,
upload your photo to the photo section of the group's homepage (not the
geocities one) and your thesis to the files section. Place the latter in the
S. Goetz folder I have just created for you. You will need to log in to the
homepage with your Yahoo username and password. If the English version of
your thesis is available, it would be better to upload that one as most of
the members here probably can't read German. Perhaps for those who would
prefer it in German they could contact you offlist.

I can understand you not having the time to post due to your time
restrictions. It's normally a quiet list as most of us here are lurkers busy
with other things to do. Just write us whenever you care to. Writing and
reading emails can sure eat up a lot of one's valuable time. I try to keep
it under control as much as I can to leave me with ample time for my own
study projects.

I look forward to seeing your photo and thesis.

Best wishes,
Jim

> PS: I see, my M.A. thesis can't be sent, it's a little bit more than 1
> megabyte...
>
>
> Dear yahoogroup members,
>
> I am looking forward to the coming correspondence with all of you. At the
> moment I don't want to write much, but I will attach my M.A. thesis for
> those who are interested to have a glance at it.
>
> These days I am busy with preparations for my Ph.D. (and with applying for
> a scholarship). You'll probably hear from me as soon as there is an
> unsolved question or problem! Or maybe before, if there are interesting
> news or files to share.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Susi
>
> PS: I also attach a photo showing me (in red) on the recent "phiti wang
> silaroek", a Brahmanic stone laying ceremony (for the construction of the
> new building of the Sanskrit Studies Centre, Silpakorn University Bangkok,
> at Phutthamonthon District of Nakhon Pathom; I have just finished teaching
> a "Seminar on Sanskrit Epics and Puranas" at the Sanskrit Studies Centre,
> presently in Talingchan (next building to the EFEO), Bangkok). 

#2382
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:01 am 
Subject: An interview with Pali scholar Peter Masefield

    "Since his dissertation was published in England as Divine Revelation
in Pali Buddhism in 1986, [Masefield] has had "absolutely no idea how
people are responding to the book or whether anybody's even read it."
[...]

"I just work away here translating Pali commentaries," [...] "I gave a
talk in Montreal last year and one of the students was apparently so
inspired that he ran out and bought the book, but he's never gotten in
touch with me to tell me whether he thinks it's rubbish or not."

The interview itself is primarily interesting because it reflects the
personality of a man whose life was dedicated to Pali scholarship,
however, the actual themes raised by the questions are "painfully
mainstream" issues of Buddhist dogmatics:
   http://www.wie.org/j14/masefield.asp?page=2

E.M. 

#2383
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:53 pm 
Subject: German thesis uploaded already
 
    Dear friends,
I have uploaded my M.A. thesis (only available in German at the moment, I
haven't begun translating yet) and the photo already. Enjoy it :-).
Good night,
Susi
--
Susi Goetz
Room A-309
Chayathip Mansion
72/1 T. Sanam Chan
A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
73000 Thailand
Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
Handy +66-83-3176477

#2384
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:27 pm 
Subject: Sinhalese mss.
 
    Dear List,

Two of my students are working on editions of Pali texts: sections of
the Ap & SN (Salayatanasamyutta). We are experiencing difficulty getting
Sinhalese mss. Copies (e.g. scans) from European libraries are
ridiculously expensive.

I've been told that getting copies from Sri Lankan libraries is quite
difficult.

Any suggestions?

Regards
Mark


Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
University of Sydney
Brennan MacCallum Building A18
Sydney NSW 2006, Australia
Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319 

#2385
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:36 am 
Subject: Re: Sinhalese mss.
 
    If you can afford it,

   (1) Go to Sri Lanka,
   (2) Bring your own digital camera.

You are correct that arranging for a copy to be made and sent from old
Ceylon is "improbable" at best.

Probably you would be well advised to check against the possibility of
dust-covered inter-university sub-agreement that requires the second
party to provide you with a copy of works in storage under conditions
X, Y, & Z --many universities have rarely-invoked special priviledges
of this kind ("Dharmashastra" sub-clauses --precisely to protect
people in your situation).

E.M. 

#2386
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:29 am 
Subject: Search for Buddhadasa's critizism on Thai language
 
    Dear friends,

can somebody give me a hint in which of Buddhadasa's books he criticizes the
language of the Thai version of the Tipitaka?

By the way, the Tipitaka versions in Thai language I have come across so far
are:

- 2500 B.E./1957 "Phra Traipitok phasa Thai" (=the first COMPLETE version of the
Tipitaka as stated in the introductory chapter)
- 2525 B.E./1982 4th edition of the latter (after 2/1971 and 3/1978), now called
"chabap luang"
and
-2535 B.E./1992 "chabap Mahachulalongkornratchawitthayalai" (completely new
translation, very different from the former versions)

Anyway, back to Buddhadasa's criticism. Any hint in which of his books I should
search for suitable passages to quote would be helpful to me now.

Thanks a lot!

Kind regards
from
Susi
--
Susi Goetz
Room A-309
Chayathip Mansion
72/1 T. Sanam Chan
A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
73000 Thailand
Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
Handy +66-83-3176477

#2387
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:47 pm 
Subject: Re: Search for Buddhadasa's critizism on Thai language
  
    Dear Susi,

> can somebody give me a hint in which of Buddhadasa's books he criticizes
> the language of the Thai version of the Tipitaka?

I'm afraid I can't give you an answer but I can give you a suggestion on
where you might be able to find out if no one here can help. I did a search
of Yahoogroups and found that there is a mailing list dedicated to
Buddhadasa and it has 331 members. You could try sending your question to
the list-owner at: buddhadasa-owner@yahoogroups.com .

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2388
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:15 am 
Subject: Semantics of /ud-/ vs/ /u.d.d.-/ 

    Although this is hardly "critical", I couldn't find anything of use in
the online CPD re:

/ud-/ vs. /u.d.d-/

I'm guessing that there's an etymologically unrelated form that
sometimes appears as /u.d.d-/, lacking any real semantic link to /ud-/
(viz., despite the fact that the later could "permute" to a retroflex,
reduplicate, etc.)

It would be interesting to know more about /ud-/ vs. /u-/1 vs. /u-/2
(upasagga) --the latter, I take it, from an unrelated (vedic) /ud-/
that we now have more commonly as /uttara-/, etc.?

E.M. 

#2389
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:34 pm 
Subject: Re: Semantics of /ud-/ vs/ /u.d.d.-/ 
  
    There is obviously an historical interaction between "ud-" and "u.l" /
"ull-" --not to mention "uu.lh".

Etymological confusion in more directions than one seems to me inevitable.

I have yet to see an instance where "fly up", "arise", etc., is
semantically wrong, but as I puzzle at this, it seems to me likely
that some older form (that was once something more exotic) may have
been simplified to /ud-/, /u.d.d-/ or /udd-/.

There is certainly room for morphological and semantic confusion here
--and none of the dictionaries I've seen treat these terms
specifically enough, etc. --but then, it is likely that someone with
more interest in Vedic roots, etc., will know more than I (and care
more than I).

E.M. 

#2390
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Apr 1, 2008 7:26 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Semantics of /ud-/ vs/ /u.d.d.-/
  
    Dear Eisel,

> I have yet to see an instance where "fly up", "arise", etc., is
> semantically wrong, but as I puzzle at this, it seems to me likely
> that some older form (that was once something more exotic) may have
> been simplified to /ud-/, /u.d.d-/ or /udd-/.

The form 'ud' is very old. You may be interested in the following on the
upasargas from Yaska's Nirukta, the oldest Indian treatise on etymology
(circa 7th-6th cent. B.C.E.):

1,3: aa.ity.arvaag.arthe.pra.paraa.ity.etasya.praatilomyam
1,3: abhi.ity.aabhimukhyam.prati.ity.etasya.praatilomyam
1,3: ati.su.ity.abhipuujita.arthe.nir.dur.ity.etayo.h.praatilomyam
1,3: ny.ava.iti.vinigraha.arthiiyaa.ud.ity.etayo.h.praatilomyam
1,3: sam.ity.ekii.bhaavam.vy.apa.ity.etasya.praatilomyam
1,3: anv.iti.saad.r"sya.apara.bhaavam
1,3: api.iti.sa.msargam
1,3: upa.ity.upajanam
1,3: pari.iti.sarvato.bhaavam
1,3: adhi.ity.upari.bhaavam.ai"svaryam.vaa

My reading of "1,3: ny.ava.iti.vinigraha.arthiiyaa.ud.ity.etayo.h.
praatilomyam" is that 'ud' has an opposite sense to 'ni' and 'ava'. I'm not
sure of the meaning of "vinigrahaarthiiyaa" though. According to Apte,
'vinigraha' has the senses of 1) restraining, curbing, subduing; and 2)
mutual antithesis; while 'arthiiya' has the senses of 1) destined or
intended for, doomed to suffering; and 2) belonging or relating to.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2391
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Wed Apr 2, 2008 6:17 am 
Subject: RE: Sinhalese mss.

    Thanks for the responses both on and off list to my enquiry concerning
Sinhalese mss.

Regards
Mark


Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
University of Sydney 

#2392
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Wed Apr 2, 2008 7:36 am 
Subject: Wanted: Sk. commentaries to Jaina literature
  
    Dear friends,

maybe the Sanskrit forum of the E-Sangha (at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/ )
is not the right place for the following problem (no answer so far), so I want
to ask you:

Can anybody help a Thai Ph.D. candidate? He is writing about "A Comparative
Study of Cosmology in Jainism and Theravada Buddhism".

He has just spent a couple of months in India, but he hasn't been able to find
commentaries in Sanskrit for the following works (noted down in Harvard-Kyoto
code):

sUryaprajJapti

candraprajJapti

jambudvIpaprajJapti

Any hints if there are SANSKRIT (!!!) commentaries and where to get them? (most
urgent for jambudvIpaprajJapti)

Answers can be sent directly to Achan Bamrung (teacher at the Thai Dept. of the
Faculty of Education at Silpakorn University, Nakhon Pathom):
bamroongg@hotmail.com.

Thank you! :-)

Susi
--
Susi Goetz
Room A-309
Chayathip Mansion
72/1 T. Sanam Chan
A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
73000 Thailand
Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
Handy +66-83-3176477

#2393
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Apr 4, 2008 4:49 pm 
Subject: suva.n.nanaavaa (gold vessel)
  
    Dear Members,

I recently received an email from a Spanish woman who enquires in her own
words:

"I am trying to know which is the word or words utilised in Sanskrit and in
Pali for meaning a specific type of objects, with the shape of a boat. I
have found several examples from Pali texts, but the texts which I have are
translated in English."

I found the word to be "naavaa" in the following illustrative passage at
Dhp-a III 184:

a.t.tha vaa dasa vaa rattasuva.n.nanaavaayo kaarehi, taa ma.n.dapamajjhe
bhavissanti. dvinna.m dvinna.m bhikkhuuna.m antare ekekaa khattiyadhiitaa
nisiiditvaa gandhe pisissati, ekekaa khattiyadhiitaa biijana.m aadaaya dve
dve bhikkhuu biijamaanaa .thassati,  sesaa khattiyadhiitaro pise pise gandhe
haritvaa suva.n.nanaavaasu pakkhipissanti, taasu ekaccaa khattiyadhiitaro
niiluppalakalaape  gahetvaa suva.n.nanaavaasu pakkhittagandhe aalo.letvaa
vaasa.m gaahaapessanti.

which I tentatively translate as:

"Make eight or ten shiny gold vessels, these will be in the middle of the
hall. Each noble daughter sitting down between two monks will crush scented
substances, each noble daughter taking a fan will stand fanning two monks,
the remaining noble daughters carrying the crushed substances will place
these in the gold vessels, among them a few noble daughters taking
clusters of blue lotuses and mixing these in with the scented substances
placed in the gold vessels will cause the perfume to be taken up (through
the nose?)."

Other translators might use the word 'boat' instead of 'vessel'. The meaning
of "naavaa" in the sense of a boat-shaped utensil or vessel is not found in
PED except perhaps in the PvA 189 gloss (do.ni) suggesting that the vessel
has a capacity of one do.na.

MW's Sanskrit dictionary gives:

2 nau 2 f. a ship , boat , vessel RV. &c. &c. ; (in astrol.) N. of a
partic. appearance of the moon or of a constellation Var. ; = %{vAc} Nir. i
, 11 (either because prayer is a vessel leading to heaven or ft. 4. %{nu} ,
`" to praise "'). [Cf. 2. %{nAva} and 7. %{nu} ; Gk. $ , &175727[571 ,2] $ ,
&c. ; Lat. {na1vis} , {nau-ta} , {nau-fragus} &c. ; Icel. {no4r} ; (?) Germ.
{Nachen}.]

Does anyone know anything more about the meaning of naavaa in the Dhp-a III
184 passage that I could pass on to Maria?

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2394
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 2, 2008 11:47 pm 
Subject: A list of Pali grammatical works' titles... in Chinese?  

    I happened upon the following resource unexpectedly:

------
The following list of ancient Pali philological texts is found in CSCD
Version 3:

- [Byaakara.na gantha-sa`ngaha - Grammar text collection] -
. Kaccaayanabyaakara.na ¡¶åÈì¹ÑÓÎÄ·¨¡· [CPD class 5.1]
. Moggallaanabyaakara.na ¡¶Ä¿êùßBÎÄ·¨¡· [CPD class 5.3]
. Saddaniitippakara.na (padamaalaa) ¡¶ÕZ·¨ÂÛ¡· [CPD class 5.2]
. Saddaniitippakara.na (dhaatumaalaa) [CPD class 5.2]
. Padaruupasiddhi ¡¶¾äÉí³É¾Í¡· [CPD class 5.1.4]
. Moggallaanapa~ncikaa [CPD class 5.3.111]
. Payogasiddhipaa.tha ¡¶Ç°·½±ã³É¾Í¡· [CPD class 5.3.5]
. Vuttodayapaa.tha ¡¶°ÍÀûÔŠŒW¡· [CPD class 5.7.1]
. Abhidhaanappadiipikaapaa.tha ¡¶Í¬Áx×Ö¡· [CPD class 5.6.1]
. Abhidhaanappadiipikaa.tiikaa ¡¶Í¬Áx×ÖÊè¡· [CPD class 5.6.1.2]
. Subodhaala`nkaarapaa.tha ¡¶Çf‡ÀÃ÷²t¡· [CPD class 5.8.1]
. Subodhaala`nkaara.tiikaa ¡¶Çf‡ÀÃ÷²tÊè¡·
. Baalaavataara ga.nthipadatthavinicchayasaara ¡¶ÐÂÈëéT¡· £¨°ÍÀû³õŒWÈëéT£©

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/texts.htm 

#2395
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:06 am 
Subject: Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan

    [I previously sent the list one other notice on similar birchbark
material from the same region]



24 June 2007
The Buddhist Scrolls, Pt 2

SOURCE: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ark/stories/2007/1950209.htm

Out of the turmoil of Afghanistan, several sensational collections of
early Buddhist manuscripts have come to the West in the last ten
years. They are the oldest original manuscripts of Buddhism still
existing.

Transcript

Rachael Kohn: Hello, I'm Rachael Kohn, and on The Ark today, we take a
second look at the recently carbon-dated Buddhist scrolls, which came
to light around 10 years ago.

Out of the turbulent recent history of Afghanistan, hundreds of
precious Buddhist manuscripts from the 1st to the 5th centuries came
on the market in the 1990s. Since then, scholars have been working on
three separate collections of the manuscripts, but their precise
origins are unknown.

Mark Allon is an Australian scholar working on the early Buddhist
manuscripts project.

Mark Allon: These manuscripts appeared on the antiquities market and
found their way into public and private collections. We surmise what
the origins of these manuscripts would be because we know by the
language characteristics of them, that they must come from what is
referred to as Ancient Gandhara, that is Eastern Afghanistan, North
West Pakistan, but that straddles two countries; where within that
region is a little bit uncertain.

Richard Salomon, who heads the Early Buddhist Manuscript Project, who
worked on these when they first were discovered, speculated that they
came from Eastern Afghanistan, the Jalalabad Plains, particularly
Hadda.

Rachael Kohn: Given that these manuscripts have passed through hands
perhaps of people who have been dealing in them, maybe even stolen
them from their original spot, what sort of issues does it raise for
the scholar?

Mark Allon: First and foremost we have lost all of the contextual
information and that means that we can never fully understand these
manuscripts. We do not know where they were buried, why they were
buried. The Senior collection for example, as I mentioned, has an
inscription on the pot which states that it's a donation, and that it
was deposited in a stupa, that is a religious Buddhist monument. And
we know from other contexts that this was a relatively common
practice, but the British Library manuscripts we don't know the
context for that.

So we don't know. We think by the fact that they appear to have been
old when they were buried, that they were like the many Jewish
manuscripts where they were sacred objects that couldn't be destroyed,
so they were put in a pot and interred in a stupa perhaps, to sanctify
that space.

Rachael Kohn: So apart from not knowing the context, and that's a
problem for scholars who want to explain what these texts mean, what
about actually working on them? Does it raise ethical issues in the
academy?

Mark Allon: Yes, it does. We as scholars, consider that we are
preserving the Buddhist culture of the region from which they come.
Whether that be Afghanistan or Pakistan. If these objects had not come
into the West, they would have been destroyed, and there are many
accounts say from central Asia of whole libraries of say Nestorian
Christian documents, beautifully illustrated, that were destroyed by
the local communities because they were 'pagan' books. And this also
applies to Afghanistan.

So we see our work as part of preserving the culture of this region
and as importantly, of making these very significant documents
available to the wider public, to the scholar community and to the
world of knowledge at large.

Rachael Kohn: Were there actual incidents in the university where
projects were terminated because of these ethical issues?

Mark Allon: Yes, the Schoyen collection in Norway actually closed down
for a short period of time, because the head of that project came
under criticism from a colleague who claimed that scholars should not
work on these manuscripts.

Rachael Kohn: Because they were stolen?

Mark Allon: Yes, or because of their uncertain origins. However the
University of Oslo requested the Norwegian Ethics Committee to
adjudicate on the issue, and they came down in favour of scholars,
maintaining that scholars had an obligation to make this material
available to a wider public, to expand knowledge and understanding.

Rachael Kohn: Do we actually know how they found their way onto the market?

Mark Allon: They appeared in Peshawar in north-west Pakistan in the
markets, which was a clearing house for many of these antiquities at
the beginning of the 1990s and throughout the 1990s. I don't really
know what happened to them then, how many hands they went through, I
really am unfamiliar with that whole area.

Rachael Kohn: Well it sounds like a great number of scholars around
the world are working on these manuscripts, and certainly the Schoyen
collection has thousands of manuscripts, or fragments of manuscripts.
Can you draw a picture of how many of you are acting?

Mark Allon: Yes. Within the Early Buddhist Manuscript Project based in
Seattle, there must be approximately ten of us. We invite scholars
with certain skills to come in and work on material as we need. Each
of those scholars has particular specialties. So my own specialty is
the Sutras, that is the early discourses, whereas say the specialty of
Dr Cox is the scholastic material, so that is what she is working on.
Timothy Lenz is working on the story literature, Richard Salomon the
head of the project is working on the poetical literature, and has
done much to establish the project.

In the case of the scholars working on the Schoyen material, apart
from myself and Richard Salomon and some of the doctorate students at
the University of Washington, it includes scholars from the University
of Oslo, from England, from America, Japan and so on. So it is very
much an international collaboration.

Rachael Kohn: Now Mark, how on earth did you train to translate
scripts in an extinct language, Gandhari?

Mark Allon: When I was at art school in Sydney I became interested in
Buddhism. I went to Canberra, to the Australian National University,
to study the languages of Buddhism, and Western philosophy and so on.
So my training there was in particularly Pali, but also Sanskrit and
some Chinese and Tibetan. I was most interested in Pali which is
related to Gandhari. I went to England to do my doctorate in Pali. I
then had a fellowship in Japan. When this material started appearing,
I contact Richard Salomon, the head of the team, and he invited me to
work on it. I had the prerequisites for that. I had studied this
language, Gandhari, only briefly at the University in Canberra, the
ANU. So I spent my first period of time in Seattle learning the
language, and becoming familiar with the script, and just dealing with
these manuscripts.

Rachael Kohn: Can you say something about the script, which is Kharoshthi.

Mark Allon: That's right. The language is Gandhari, as I mentioned,
the script is Kharoshthi. This script was adopted from the Aramaic
script which was a vestige of the Achaemenid Empire which occupied
this region, north-west India, up until Alexander the Great took it
from him in the 4th century BC.

Rachael Kohn: And did that script come down through Persia? I mean we
associate Aramaic with the Hebrew Bible, with Rabbinic texts etc.

Mark Allon: Yes. It is not really my area, but as I understand Aramaic
was the administrative language, or one of the administrative
languages of the Achaemenid Empire which stretched from Persia way
across to India. That must have been used in the north west, to the
Indian subcontinent as an administrative language, and when the
Buddhists arrived there, they adopted that script or modified that
script, to write their own texts.

It was first witnessed in fact in the north-west, in the inscriptions,
the edicts of the Mauryan Emperor, Ashoka, and throughout most of the
Indian subcontinent, he distributed his edicts which were carved on
stone, on rock or pillars, in a Prakrit language, similar to Pali.
However in the north-west he produced bilingual versions, either Greek
and Aramaic, and his inscriptions, as opposed to the rest of India
which were written in the Brahmi script, so a Prahkrit language in the
Brahmi script, were written in the Gandhari language and Kharoshthi
script. So he is clearly communicating with a different foreign
language group, the Greeks and the remnants of the Achaemenid Empire
and then also adopting to the local language of that area, Gandhari.

Rachael Kohn: Mark, have there even been Buddhist texts that have
appeared in the Greek language?

Mark Allon: We don't have any examples of that, and I would speculate
that they never were.

Rachael Kohn: Well Mark, with these newly discovered Buddhist texts,
in fact many of them are really fragmentary, aren't they? Can you give
me some idea of the sorts of fragments that they contain?

Mark Allon: This is an example of a verse texts. It is called the
Rhinoceros Sutra for which we have versions in Sanskrit and Pali as
well. The first line of this Sutra reads:

LANGUAGE

This text was edited and translated, published by Richard Salomon. The
translation of this verse is:

'Laying aside violence towards all beings, not harming even one
amongst them, benevolent and sympathetic with a loving mind, one
should wander alone, like the rhinoceros.'

Or another verse is:

'If one should not find a wise companion, a well-behaved strong
fellow, then like the king who has abandoned the realm that he had
conquered, one should wander alone like the rhinoceros.'

Now that translation is complete, but it is based on the repetitive
nature of these verses, the verses in this particular text. So in
fact, one and a half lines of that verse are missing, that is, the
words 'Like a king who' and 'the realm'.

Rachael Kohn: What is the significance of the rhinoceros?

Mark Allon: This imagery has been debated for some time, because the
particular words in question could be translated either as, 'One
should wander alone like the rhinoceros' or 'One should wander, or be
alone, like the single rhinoceros horn.' The Indian rhinoceros has a
single horn. I think actually there's a double imagery. In the
Buddhist tradition being independent, self sufficient, was highly
valued and the elephant, that is the male elephant who lives alone in
the forest or the rhinoceros who lives alone, the male rhinoceros,
alone, in the savannah, these were animals that were considered to be
worthy of emulation.

Rachael Kohn: That's very interesting, because it's a rather fearsome
creature and one that we don't normally associate with the Buddha, or
the enlightened life.

Mark Allon: That's true, yes.

Rachael Kohn: One of the biggest issues with the Dead Sea Scrolls has
been preservation, and being fragmentary and being so old, they can
easily deteriorate when exposed to oxygen. What sort of special
problems have the Buddhist texts presented?

Mark Allon: I don't think that they present the same problems as the
Dead Sea Scrolls, probably because the Dead Sea Scrolls are vellum,
whereas these are birchbark and palm leaf. Once they are preserved,
and in this case between glass, they are quite stable, and of course
they're preserved in a dry, temperature controlled environment.

Rachael Kohn: And where are most of them held?

Mark Allon: The British Library manuscripts are kept at the British
Library. The Senior manuscripts are currently in the United States,
and the Schoyen manuscripts are currently in Norway.

Rachael Kohn: Can people see them? View them? Are they on display?

Mark Allon: They have been on display. The British Library displayed
some of these. Generally they're not available to the wider public,
because they're very fragmentary. The glass frames themselves could be
easily dropped and would shatter into a thousand pieces.

Rachael Kohn: Can people see images of them on line?

Mark Allon: Yes, people can visit either our website, that is the
Early Buddhist Manuscript Project or the website of the Schoyen
collection and see images.

Rachael Kohn: Still, I am holding out for a worldwide tour of these
texts; do you think that's possible?

Mark Allon: It is possible that some of these will tour, or will be
available for the public to see.

Rachael Kohn: Mark, have you been surprised at the amount of interest
that has been shown recently with the carbon dating of these
manuscripts?

Mark Allon: Yes, in some ways. Of course it is very important to us
and it is nice to know that the wider public is interested in such
things.

Rachael Kohn: Well you have been thrust from the back dusty rooms of
academe into the bright lights of the media recently.

Mark Allon: No doubt soon to return.

Rachael Kohn: Let's hope we see an exhibition here in Australia
similar to the one on the Dead Sea Scrolls in 2000.

That was Dr Mark Allon, from the Department of Archaeology at the
University of Sydney.

To view a text, just go to our website.

Guests

Dr Mark Allon
lectures in the Dept of Archaeology at the University of Sydney, and
is an Australian Research Council (ARC) Research Fellow working on the
newly-discovered manuscripts.

(c) 2008 ABC | Privacy Policy | Conditions of Use 

#2396
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:40 am 
Subject: RE: Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan

    Dear Eisel,

These manuscripts are in the Gandhari language, not Pali, though the two
are closely related.

This reminds me, I meant to respond to comments on the list by Jim some
time ago regarding the preparation of birch bark for writing.
Unfortunately, we have not idea how the material was prepared for
writing (e.g. whether it was treated with oils or some solution), how
long it could be kept before use (obviously, the stuff can last for a
thousand of years in the "brittle old manuscript" state), etc. We also
have not yet investigated the nature of the inks used. But we do intend
subjecting the manuscripts to further material analysis in the hope of
learning more about these things.

Best wishes
Mark


Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
University of Sydney
Brennan MacCallum Building A18
Sydney NSW 2006, Australia
Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319

>-----Original Message-----
>From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
>Eisel Mazard
>Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:06 PM
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [palistudy] Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan
>
>[I previously sent the list one other notice on similar birchbark
>material from the same region]
>
>
>
>24 June 2007
>The Buddhist Scrolls, Pt 2

#2397
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:15 pm 
Subject: Re: Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan
  
    Dear Mark,

> This reminds me, I meant to respond to comments on the list by Jim some
> time ago regarding the preparation of birch bark for writing.
> Unfortunately, we have not idea how the material was prepared for
> writing (e.g. whether it was treated with oils or some solution), how
> long it could be kept before use (obviously, the stuff can last for a
> thousand of years in the "brittle old manuscript" state), etc. We also
> have not yet investigated the nature of the inks used. But we do intend
> subjecting the manuscripts to further material analysis in the hope of
> learning more about these things.

I wonder if the sticky substance or pitch exuded by coniferous trees might
have been or could be used as a preservative in the preparation of birch
bark paper for writing. I don't know much about the properties of this
substance --- whether or not it is soluable in water or if it can be diluted
to a consistency where the birch bark won't stick together when rolled up or
stacked. Perhaps it could be used in an ink solution as well. The
aboriginals in North Anerica seem to have used the pitch in the construction
and repair of birch bark canoes.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2398
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:34 am 
Subject: Re: Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan

    (1) Yes, yes, in the main, Gandhari --but I hope there are at least a
few passing quotations in Pali to be found therein.

(2) Speaking of which: it would be interesting to know precisely how
much Pali (perhaps counted syllable for syllable) showed up in Tufan,
a.k.a. Turpan.  The Tokaroi seemed interested in incompetent
transliterations of Theravada sources once-in-a-while --and, of
course, where there are Manicheans, there are fragments of other
literary traditions preserved as well.

(3) If you want to know what preserved all that birch-bark, the answer
is: the same thing that destroyed Turfan.  Desertification.

Litre by litre, much of the now-inhabited world is headed for the same fate.

When I look at Turfan, I see not the past, but the future!

E.M. 

#2399
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:59 am 
Subject: RE: Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan
 
    Thanks, Jim.

>I wonder if the sticky substance or pitch exuded by coniferous trees might
>have been or could be used as a preservative in the preparation of birch
>bark paper for writing. I don't know much about the properties of this
>substance --- whether or not it is soluable in water or if it can be diluted
>to a consistency where the birch bark won't stick together when rolled up or
>stacked. Perhaps it could be used in an ink solution as well. The 
>aboriginals in North Anerica seem to have used the pitch in the construction
>and repair of birch bark canoes.

I'll keep that in mind.

Regards
Mark 

#2400
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 9, 2008 5:08 am 
Subject: Meanwhile, in ancient Bactria & Kushana... 

    In terms of taking MS and turning them into editions, it seems the
Bactrian/Kushan studies are now ahead of Pali.

Certainly some of these ("Buddhist texts") will be of importance as
comparative studies for Pali recensions ... but I cannot, offhand,
recall a single article citing such a thing.

E.M.

________________________________
To: Kushanas@yahoogroups.com
From: a.korn@em.uni-frankfurt.de
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 15:32:51 +0200
Subject: [Kushanas] important new text editions of Bactrian and other texts


Dear all,

the 2nd volume of Bactrian Documents is available now from
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/84429 !!!

Bactrian Documents, Part 2
by Nicholas Sims-Williams
The second volume of Bactrian documents from Afghanistan of the 2nd
to 9th cents AD.
(Studies in the Khalili Collections 3, part 2, 2007)
ISBN-13: 978-1-874780-90-8
ISBN-10: 1-874780-90-0
328p. Hardback. GB £23.00

The book is an edition (with translations) of some 80 texts (letters and
Buddhist texts), all but one written on leather.
With the present book, all Bactrian texts known so far are accessible in
editions!

In addition to the texts, there is a glossary and a grammatical sketch.
Both incorporate the material from the texts of this book as well as
from those of the previous volume (Bactrian Documents I, 2000), and of
those edited in 4 additional articles by Nicholas Sims-Williams, which
means that readers who want to check a certain word or grammatical
feature only need to consult this new volume to get the full info.

Also interesting in this context is another new text edition, viz. that
of Arabic documents from the same archive as the latest Bactrian
documents (mentioning some of the same individuals):

Arabic Documents from Early Islamic Khurasan
by Geoffrey Khan
Thirty two legal and administrative documents from a private archive
of a family from north-eastern Afghanistan, datable between AH 138 and
AH 160 (AD 755-777).
(Studies in the Khalili Collections 5, 2005)
ISBN-13: 978-1-874780-71-7
ISBN-10: 1-874780-71-4
184p. Hardback. GB £23.00
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/84430

Best wishes,
Agnes Korn 

#2401
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 17, 2008 8:33 am 
Subject: Omission in the Visuddhimagga Pali?

    The BPS is preparing a new edition of Nyanamoli's translation of the
Visuddhimagga, *The Path of Purification. *While going through the digitial
files I noticed that there appears to be an incomplete sentence at the end
of paragraph 60 in Chapter I. There is just "Of these six precepts."
for ''Imesa.m
channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa vasenaa''ti. The Visuddhimagga
subcommentary, however, seems to comment upon a more complete
sentence:  ''Imesa.m
channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa vasenaa''ti sambandho he.t.thaa
dassito eva." Has part of the sentence gone missing in the Visuddhimagga and
has it been preserved in the Tika? I am not that familiar with the
Commentarial idioms and would appreciate feedback. Below are the quotations.

Regards,

                 Bhikkhu Nyanatusita


Vism I § 60.                 (c) Now, as regards the virtue of livelihood
purification mentioned above next to the virtue of restraint of the
faculties (§42), the words *of the six precepts announced on account of
livelihood *mean, of the following six training precepts announced thus:
"With livelihood as cause, with livelihood as reason, one of evil wishes, a
prey to wishes, lays claim to a higher than human state that is
non-existent, not a fact," the contravention of which is defeat (expulsion
from the Order); "with livelihood as cause, with livelihood as reason, he
acts as go-between," the contravention of which is an offense entailing a
meeting of the Order; "with livelihood as cause, with livelihood as reason,
he says, 'A bhikkhu who lives in your monastery is an Arahant,'" the
contravention of which is a serious offense in one who is aware of it; "with
livelihood as cause, with livelihood as reason, a bhikkhu who is not sick
eats superior food that he has ordered for his own use," the contravention
of which is an offense requiring expiation: "With livelihood as cause, with
livelihood as reason, a bhikkhunì who is not sick eats superior food that
she has ordered for her own use," the contravention of which is an offense
requiring confession; "with livelihood as cause, with livelihood as reason,
one who is not sick eats curry or boiled rice [*23*] that he has ordered for
his own use," the contravention of which is an offense of wrongdoing (Vin V
146). *Of these six precepts.*



Vism I.16. Idaani indriyasa.mvarasiilaanantara.m vutte
aajiivapaarisuddhisiile aajiivahetu pa~n~nattaana.m channa.m
sikkhaapadaananti yaani taani ''aajiivahetu aajiivakaara.naa paapiccho
icchaapakato asanta.m abhuuta.m uttarimanussadhamma.m ullapati, aapatti
paaraajikassa. Aajiivahetu aajiivakaara.naa sa~ncaritta.m samaapajjati,
aapatti sa"nghaadisesassa. Aajiivahetu aajiivakaara.naa 'yo te vihaare
vasati so bhikkhu arahaa'ti bha.nati, pa.tivijaanantassa aapatti
thullaccayassa. Aajiivahetu aajiivakaara.naa bhikkhu pa.niitabhojanaani
agilaano attano atthaaya vi~n~naapetvaa bhu~njati, aapatti paacittiyassa.
Aajiivahetu aajiivakaara.naa bhikkhunii pa.niitabhojanaani agilaanaa attano
atthaaya vi~n~naapetvaa bhu~njati, aapatti paa.tidesaniiyassa. Aajiivahetu
aajiivakaara.naa suupa.m vaa odana.m vaa agilaano attano atthaaya
vi~n~naapetvaa bhu~njati, aapatti dukka.tassaa''ti (pari. 287) eva.m
pa~n~nattaani cha sikkhaapadaani, *imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m*.

Vism Mh.*t*  *I*.16. Vutteti idheva uddesavasena pubbe vutte. Tathaa hi
''aajiivahetu pa~n~nattaana.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana''nti paduddhaara.m
katvaa taani paa.livaseneva dassetu.m ''yaani taanii''tiaadi aaraddha.m.
Tattha yaani taani eva.m pa~n~nattaani cha sikkhaapadaaniiti sambandho.
Aajiivahetuuti jiivikanimitta.m, ''evaaha.m paccayehi akilamanto
jiivissaamii''ti adhippaayena. Aajiivakaara.naati tasseva vevacana.m.
Paapicchoti paapikaaya asantagu.nasambhaavanicchaaya samannaagato.
Icchaapakatoti icchaaya apakato upadduto, abhibhuuto vaa. Asantanti
avijjamaana.m. Abhuutanti anuppanna.m. Anuppannattaa hi tassa ta.m asantanti
purimassa pacchima.m kaara.navacana.m. Uttarimanussadhammanti
uttarimanussaana.m ukka.t.thapurisaana.m dhamma.m, manussadhammato vaa
uttari ukka.t.tha.m. Ullapatiiti uggataayuko lapati. Siila.m hi bhikkhuno
aayu, ta.m tassa tathaalapanasamakaalameva vigacchati. Tenaaha ''aapatti
paaraajikassaa''ti paaraajikasa"nkhaataa aapatti assa,
paaraajikasa~n~nitassa vaa viitikkamassa aapajjana.m ullapananti
attho. Sa~ncaritta.m
samaapajjatiiti sa~ncara.nabhaava.m aapajjati, itthiyaa vaa purisamati.m,
purisassa vaa itthimati.m aarocetiiti adhippaayo. *''Imesa.m channa.m
sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa vasenaa''ti sambandho he.t.thaa dassito eva.*


--
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Buddhist Publication Society
PO Box 61
Kandy
Sri Lanka

Website: http://www.bps.lk
Alternative email: bpseditor@gmail.com

#2402
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sat May 17, 2008 1:40 pm 
Subject: Re: Omission in the Visuddhimagga Pali?

    Dear Ven. Nyanatusita,

The problem is created because the text is punctuated in the form:

imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m followed by a full stop and new paragraph.

It should read straight on:
imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m kuhanaa ti aadiisu aya.m paa.li,
followed by a series of quotations from the Vibha'nga.
i.e.
"for these six training rules, in the case of kuhanaa and so on there is the
following authority: ... "

It is put this way because the passage cited at Vism 16 and  being commented
upon here is in two parts:
viitikkamassa (sc. vasena) [and then kuhanaa etc.] ti evam aadiina~n ca
paapadhammaana.m vasena pavattaa micchaajiivaa virati . . .

The Mahaa.tiikaa understands this:

Imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa vasenaa''ti sambandho he.t.thaa
dassito eva

It means that viitikkamassa should be construed with vasena. This would
be clearer if one added an ellipsis:

Imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa ... vasenaa''ti sambandho
he.t.thaa dassito eva


Lance Cousins


> The BPS is preparing a new edition of Nyanamoli's translation of the
> Visuddhimagga, *The Path of Purification. *While going through the digitial
> files I noticed that there appears to be an incomplete sentence at the end
> of paragraph 60 in Chapter I. There is just "Of these six precepts."
> for ''Imesa.m
> channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa vasenaa''ti. The Visuddhimagga
> subcommentary, however, seems to comment upon a more complete
> sentence:  ''Imesa.m
> channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamassa vasenaa''ti sambandho he.t.thaa
> dassito eva." Has part of the sentence gone missing in the Visuddhimagga and
> has it been preserved in the Tika? I am not that familiar with the
> Commentarial idioms and would appreciate feedback. Below are the quotations.
>
> Regards,
>
>                 Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>
>
> Vism I ï¿½ 60.                 (c) Now, as regards the virtue of livelihood
> purification mentioned above next to the virtue of restraint of the

#2403
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Sat May 17, 2008 2:28 pm 
Subject: german site

    Dear Gunnar,

you asked for a German site,
Nyanaponika's German Suttanipata, since the old one indeed does not
exist.
I asked  German friend and he gave me another one, it looks very good
and it works:


http://www.palikanon.de/



Nina.

#2404
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 18, 2008 3:31 pm 
Subject: Re: Omission in the Visuddhimagga Pali?

    Dear Ven. Nyanatusita (and Lance),

After giving your question some thought, I have to admit that the
incomplete phrase at the end of I.60 is problematic. I don't agree with
Lance's solution of placing the phrase at the beginning of the next
paragraph but unfortunately I don't yet know how best to resolve the
problem. It appears that para. 60 is just one sentence albeit a complex one.
One observation is that there is a long relative clause beginning with
"yaani taani" and ending with "cha sikkhaapadaani" and would seem to
require a main clause to complete the sentence. Perhaps this is the role of
the concluding "imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m". Para.s 42 and 84
offer some help. It is possible that the commentator intentionally left the
concluding part incomplete.

It should be noted that the list of six items are worded as offences and not
training precepts as the translation would have us believe.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2405
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon May 19, 2008 12:39 am 
Subject: Re: Omission in the Visuddhimagga Pali?
  
    Dear Jim,

It is not precisely my solution: the PTS edition (Ee 1920) in fact
punctuates with a comma:
Imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m,
Kuhanaa ti ...

On the construction of yaani taani, I think the Mahaa.tiikaa is correct:
tattha yaani taani eva.m paÃ±Ã±attaani cha sikkhaapadaanii ti sambandho

I take that to mean that eva.m is the continuant to yaani taanni.

There is in any case no doubt that the Mahaa.tiikaa is referring back to
Vism 16 and hence does not provide any evidence to support the notion of
missing text.

If imesa.m is to be understood as the continuant to yaani taani, then
there is still no evidence to support any notion of missing text.

Lance

Jim Anderson wrote:
> Dear Ven. Nyanatusita (and Lance),
>
> After giving your question some thought, I have to admit that the
> incomplete phrase at the end of I.60 is problematic. I don't agree with
> Lance's solution of placing the phrase at the beginning of the next
> paragraph but unfortunately I don't yet know how best to resolve the
> problem. It appears that para. 60 is just one sentence albeit a complex one.
> One observation is that there is a long relative clause beginning with
> "yaani taani" and ending with "cha sikkhaapadaani" and would seem to
> require a main clause to complete the sentence. Perhaps this is the role of
> the concluding "imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m". Para.s 42 and 84
> offer some help. It is possible that the commentator intentionally left the
> concluding part incomplete.
>
> It should be noted that the list of six items are worded as offences and not
> training precepts as the translation would have us believe.
 
#2406
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 19, 2008 9:34 pm 
Subject: Re: Omission in the Visuddhimagga Pali?
  
    Dear Lance,

> On the construction of yaani taani, I think the Mahaa.tiikaa is correct:
> tattha yaani taani eva.m paÃ±Ã±attaani cha sikkhaapadaanii ti sambandho
>
> I take that to mean that eva.m is the continuant to yaani taanni.

I haven't met with the term "continuant" to describe the second of a pair of
correlatives before.  My understanding of "yaani taani eva.m paÃ±Ã±attaani cha
sikkhaapadaani" differs from yours. I take it to mean: whatever are those
six training precepts enacted thus (on account of the six aapatti-s). So I'm
tentatively taking "imesa.m" as the continuant instead of "eva.m". If you
take the latter, wouldn't "yaani taani" then have to qualify the quoted six
aapatti-s instead of the six training precepts ?

> There is in any case no doubt that the Mahaa.tiikaa is referring back to
> Vism 16 and hence does not provide any evidence to support the notion of
> missing text.
>
> If imesa.m is to be understood as the continuant to yaani taani, then
> there is still no evidence to support any notion of missing text.

I agree on both points.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2407
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue May 20, 2008 9:07 am 
Subject: Vism

    Dear bhikkhu Nyanatusita, Jim and Lance,

The Vism passage you have been discussing puzzles me. The phrase on page 22
(PTS edition) is a quotation from p. 16. where it occurs in a long
definition of aajiivapaarisudhisiilam, which is defined in terms of the
transgression (viitikkamassa ... vasena) of six sikkhaapadas and in terms of
the transgression of bad dhammas, which are defined as kuhanaa etc.
Now, when Buddhaghosa quotes the phrase concerning the six sikkhaapadas, it
is impossible to construe the phrase grammatically because it ends with ti
to mark that it is a quotation taken out of context, where viitikkammassa
..... vasena of the original definition would have clarified it. Then he
addresses the sikkhaapadas namely the following (yaani taani) and definies
each carefully and closes with the remark that this is the way in which they
are paññattaani. I think, however, that it is impossible to construe the
immediately following phrase imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m with the next
paragraph, which goes on describing the bad dhammas. I have therefore come
to the conclusion that this phrase merely picks up the channa.m
sikkhaapadaana.m of the previous quotation to underline that they are those
just defined, and that the comma added by the PTS editors should be changed
to full stop. I think that Bhikkhu Nanamoli must have come to the same
conclusion because he translates "Of these six precepts."

Ole Pind

#2408
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue May 20, 2008 4:50 pm 
Subject: Re: Vism

    to Bhikkhu Nyanatusita, Jim and Ole:

Looking at the phrase as it occurs at Vism 30, it is there quite clear
that we have two things:

1. Viitikkama of the six relevant training rules

Buddhaghosa explains this in terms of the various aapatti and the
consequent penalties in the case of transgression (viitikkama).

2. Paapadhamma

The various bad dhammas which Buddhaghosa explains both with the list
taken from the Vibhanga and by reference to the mahaasiilas of the the
Siilakkhandhavagga of DN.

Here at Vism 30 it is more explicit:

channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m viitikkamavasena imesa~n ca kuhanaa . . . ti
evam aadiina.m paapadhammaana.m vasena pavatto micchaajiivo

As far as I can see, this can only mean that the paapadhammas are
somehow considered to underlie the training rules. Or, is there some
other way to take it ?

Lance 

#2409
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed May 21, 2008 10:49 am 
Subject: Vism passage

    to Bhikkhu Nyanatusita, Jim and Lance,

I think the interpretation of the passage on p. 30 pivots on ca like the
similar passage on p. 16, although it is syntactically much clearer than the
former version. ca connects the imesa.m channa.m sikkhaapadaana.m
viitikkamavasena with imesa.m kuhanaa ... paapadhammaana.m vasena i.e.
viitikkama does not apply to the bad dhammas. Thus they seem to be treated
as different.

Ole

#2410
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 23, 2008 11:33 am 
Subject: Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.

    Venerable Professor,

I discovered your essay on the history of Ariyaka Pali (and associated
institutional reforms) today.

learners.in.th/file/asakya/King%20Mongkut%20and%20Pali%20Script.pdf

I have read various articles on this period, and I have seen various
examples of Pali manuscripts (in Ariyaka form) at the Thai National
Library.

However, your essay puts an important question (for further research)
into my mind:

How many Pali manuscripts were (thus) created under Royal patronage
(in Ariyaka script) --and how much historical material was created in
correspondence such as your article quotes?

Various attempts have been made to list all known Pali texts --but the
social, historical, and political importance of missives (viz.,
official correspondence) is rarely discussed; I know of one detailed
study (by Mme Filliozat, EFEO) of a single letter sent to Sri Lanka
from the royal authorities of old Siam --but I am not aware of a
catalogue (or complete list) of such materials (the bibliography of
Filliozat's article, listing prior work in this area, did not give me
much cause for hope, either).

The materials in Ariyaka form a single unit, of a discrete period, for
such study; the canonical MS, though few, may be of especially high
quality and importance due to Royal patronage and their stated purpose
in the "purification" (or institutional reform) of Thai Buddhism.

I am a junior Pali scholar, living and working in Asia for the past
five years (variously based in Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Yunnan,
etc.).

I would be interested in any further information you could provide; a
simple hand-list of known Ariyaka correspondence and texts could
provide the basis for a research proposal, etc., if such a list exists
(in Thai?).

Eisel Mazard
www.pali.pratyeka.org 

#2411
From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Sat May 24, 2008 10:23 am 
Subject: New file uploaded to palistudy

    Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the palistudy
group.

   File        : /S. Goetz/Inhalt Suphaphan na Bangchang 1983.doc
   Uploaded by : susi12maerz <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net>
   Description : Content Suphaphan Na Bangchang 1983: Pali in Thailand

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/files/S.%20Goetz/Inhalt%20Suphaphan%20na\
%20Bangchang%201983.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

susi12maerz <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 

#2412
From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Sat May 24, 2008 10:24 am 
Subject: New file uploaded to palistudy

    Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the palistudy
group.

   File        : /S. Goetz/Inhalt Suphaphan na Bangchang 1983.pdf
   Uploaded by : susi12maerz <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net>
   Description : Content Suphaphan Na Bangchang 1983: Pali in Thailand

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/files/S.%20Goetz/Inhalt%20Suphaphan%20na\
%20Bangchang%201983.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

susi12maerz <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 

#2413
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Sat May 24, 2008 10:31 am 
Subject: Re: Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.
l  
    Dear Eisel,

I have just posted a pdf file with my notes (partly in German, but most of it in
Thai) about the content of Suphaphan Na Bangchang's book on "Pali made in
Thailand". A lot of official letters are mentioned.
Probably you know the book already, but just in case it might be useful to have
an overview of the content of the book, here are my personal notes on it.

Susi

PS: I deleted the WORD-file in order to avoid trouble with the fonts.
--
Susi Goetz
Room A-309
Chayathip Mansion
72/1 T. Sanam Chan
A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
73000 Thailand
Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
Handy +66-83-3176477

#2414
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 25, 2008 12:37 am 
Subject: Re: Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.

    S.G.,

> I have just posted a pdf file with my notes (partly in German, but most of
> it in Thai) about the content of Suphaphan Na Bangchang's book on "Pali made
> in Thailand".

No, I don't know the work at all!

Based on my web-searches, I assume the work is in Thai.

I can read road-signs in Thai, and can also interpret the nutritional
information printed on the side of food-packets (you may not know that
the Thai word for Protein [Eiweiss] is "Plo-teen") --but I have never
read a whole book in this language.

I did find an unpublished PhD thesis on Pali texts composed by Thais
(an historical overview) --but the contents are "rather pathetic".
Thailand has produced very little in Pali compared to Burma, etc.

> ... but just in case it might be useful to
> have an overview of the content of the book, here are my personal notes on
> it.

There was no file attached to the message.

E.M. 

#2415
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Sun May 25, 2008 2:03 am 
Subject: Suphaphan: File uploaded!
  
    > There was no file attached to the message.
>
> E.M.


Dear Eisel,

there CAN be no file attached to yahoogroup messages. So I have uploaded it on
the yahoogroup's website, at the same time creating an automatic message
announcing that I have uploaded the file... (in case anybody else  is interested
in it). It's in the folder "S.Goetz", if I remember correctly.

Here a brief summary of the table of contents of Suphaphan's book:

1. CHRONICLES (Th. charuek)

2. LEGENDS (Th. tamnan) and ANNALS/CHRONICLES (Th. phongsawadan)

3. OFFICIAL LETTERS (Th. sat)
3.1 From the time of King Borommakot (reign 1733-58), sent to Lanka
3.2 From the Rattanakosin-Era (reign Rama III: 9 letters, reign Rama IV: 12
letters): 13 letters sent to Lanka, 7 to Burma, 1 to Cambodia

4. ANNOUNCEMENTS (Th. prakat)

Chapter 3 might be what you are interested in. Yes, the book is in Thai.

Best regards
Susi



--
Susi Goetz
Room A-309
Chayathip Mansion
72/1 T. Sanam Chan
A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
73000 Thailand
Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
Handy +66-83-3176477

#2416
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Mon May 26, 2008 4:35 am 
Subject: RE: Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.

    Jim,

I seem to have forgotten my Yahoo ID & password, if I ever had one. Can
you direct me?

Regards
Mark


Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
University of Sydney
Brennan MacCallum Building A18
Sydney NSW 2006, Australia
Phone 02-93513891; fax 02-93512319

>-----Original Message-----
>From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
>Susanne Goetz
>Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 12:32 AM
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.
>
>Dear Eisel,
>
>I have just posted a pdf file with my notes (partly in German, but most of it in Thai) about the
>content of Suphaphan Na Bangchang's book on "Pali made in Thailand". A lot of official
>letters are mentioned.
>Probably you know the book already, but just in case it might be useful to have an overview
>of the content of the book, here are my personal notes on it.
>
>Susi
>
>PS: I deleted the WORD-file in order to avoid trouble with the fonts.
>--
>Susi Goetz
>Room A-309
>Chayathip Mansion
>72/1 T. Sanam Chan
>A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
>73000 Thailand
>Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
>Handy +66-83-3176477

#2417
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 26, 2008 8:42 am 
Subject: Re: Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.

    Dear Mark,

You could try getting a new Yahoo ID. Go to the Palistudy Yahoogroups
home page and click on "Sign In". This will take you to another page. Look
for "Don't have a Yahoo ID?" and click on "Sign Up". You will then need to
add on your Yahoo ID as a second address. If you have trouble with this
part, I can send you further instructions offlist. Alternatively, I'd be
glad to send you a copy of Susi's file that was recently uploaded if that's
all you want.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Jim,
>
> I seem to have forgotten my Yahoo ID & password, if I ever had one. Can
> you direct me?
>
> Regards
> Mark 

#2418
From: "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Mon Jun 2, 2008 6:54 am 
Subject: RE: Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.

    Jim,

If you can send it to me, that would be great.

Regards
Mark


>-----Original Message-----
>From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On
>Behalf Of Jim Anderson
>Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 10:42 PM
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.
>
>Dear Mark,
>
>You could try getting a new Yahoo ID. Go to the Palistudy Yahoogroups
>home page and click on "Sign In". This will take you to another page. Look
>for "Don't have a Yahoo ID?" and click on "Sign Up". You will then need to

#2419
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:17 am 
Subject: A Pali anecdote; the false etymology of Isigiri / -gili

    There are a few delightful examples brought up in the course of B.M.
Barua's _Old Brahmi Inscriptions_, and they are delightful to a Pali
scholar because Barua himself is a Pali scholar.

The following "false etymology" was new to me, and rather than
appearing in a commentary (etc.), comes directly from the mouth of the
Buddha:

[QUOTE:]
It is interesting to observe how scholars after scholars have erred on
the wrong side in subsuming all that is in Pali is Pali.  The spelling
of /.R.sigiri/ as /Isigili/ [...] is cited by Prof. Luders as a
notable instance of [a] lingering old Maagadhism in Pali [...].  But
what can be more misleading than this?  As we have sought to show
elsewhere,* the usual Pali name would have been /Isigiri/, and the
/Isigili/ form had to be adopted for a very special reason [...]
stated in the Sutta itself:

/Bhutapubba.m, Bhikkhave, pa~nca-Pacceka-buddha-sataani imasmi.m
Isigilismi.m pabbate ciranivaasino ahesu.m.  Te ima.m pabbata.m
pavisantaa dissanti, pavi.t.thaa na dissanti.  Ta.m ena.m manussaa
disvaa eva.m aaha.msu: "aya.m pabbato ime isii gilatiiti Isigili,"
Isigili tveva sama~n~naa udapaadi./  (M.N., vol. 3, pt. 1, p. 68
[PTS?])

"Formerly, O Bhikkhus, some five hundred Egoistic Buddhas (hermit
teachers) came to live for ever (i.e., to cast off their bodies) in
(the dark caverns of) this Isigili mountain.  They could be seen
entering (the caverns of) this mountain, and once they entered into
the mountain, they could no longer be seen.  Observing this strange
happening, the people said: 'This mountain swallows these sages,' and
hence arose the name of the hill--/Isigili/, 'the swallower of
sages'."

The explanation offered by the Buddha enables us to understand that
the real name of the mountain was /.R.sigiri/ or /Isigiri/, "the
Mountain abode of the hermits," was locally pronounced /Isigili/, and
acquired a new association of ideas in a fanciful etymological
derivation [...]
[END QUOTE.]

It is interesting for me to reflect that, writing in 1929, Barua did
not regard himself as working in a "new" field of scholarship; on the
contrary, the Khaaravela inscription (occupying a large part of the
text in question) already had a hundred years of western scholarship
on it, going back to Prinsep.

This is now a rare book, and whereas Barua's work on Ashoka has been
reprinted, this work on Khaaravela is not.

I here state the title, etc., without diacritics:

Benimadhab Barua, 1929,
_Old Brahmi Inscriptions in the Udayagiri and Khandagiri Caves_
("Professor in Charge of the Department of Pali... scholar in Pali."
A title rarely seen since 1929, hm?)
University of Calcutta.

E.M. 

#2420
From: "Susanne Goetz" <susi.goetz-yu@gmx.net> 
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 1:11 am 
Subject: "semantic" etymology and my dream
  
    Dear Eisel,

thanks for your interesting observation (RSigiri)!

> The following "false etymology" was new to me, and rather than
> appearing in a commentary (etc.), comes directly from the mouth of the
> Buddha:

Why not call it "semantic etymology" (as opposed to "historical etymology") like
others (see beneath)? I like this expression. I am again and again amazed by the
richness of semantic etymologies that prevail in eastern Pali scholarship, while
our background provides us with knowledge of historical and comparative
linguistics that is very difficult to access for Pali students and scholars e.g.
here in Thailand. I hope that through scholarships for Thai students and
hopefully some future translations of major works in the mentioned fields into
Thai this can change a little bit. (Most of the Pali students, i.e. monks, come
from a poor background and are not well educated in English language, as we all
know. English, or even German books, like Wackernagel, are of no use to them.)
At the same time the "western" Pali and Sanskrit education can be enrichened by
encluding more elements (e.g. recitation) and knowledge (i.e. indigenous grammar
traditions) of "eastern"  Pali and Sanskrit scholarship.

I have a dream... (But please, no need of discussion of my dreams here or via
email anyhow! I know there are a lot of "but's"... Just wanted to share my dream
with you.)

That's it for today,

best regards
Susi


P.S.
Etymology and Magic: YÄska's Nirukta, Plato's Cratylus, and the Riddle of
Semantic Etymologies, by Johannes Bronkhorst Â© 2001.
Abstract
Semantic etymologies are to be distinguished from historical etymologies. A
historical etymology presents the origin or early history of a word. Semantic
etymologies do something completely different. They connect one word with one or
more others which are believed to elucidate its meaning. Semantic etymologies
are practically universal in pre-modern cultures, and there are treatises in
some cultures - such as YÄska's Nirukta in ancient India, Plato's Cratylus in
ancient Greece - that specifically deal with them. This article addresses the
question how modern scholarship should try to understand semantic etymologizing.
It is argued that, being a universal phenomenon, semantic etymologizing is in
need of a universal explanation. Drawing inspiration from certain pre-modern
philosophies, it is proposed to study this phenomenon in the light of another
category of phenomena that is often called "magical"
--
Susi Goetz
Room A-309
Chayathip Mansion
72/1 T. Sanam Chan
A. Mueang, C. Nakhon Pathom
73000 Thailand
Tel. +66-34-254099#1309
Handy +66-83-3176477

#2421
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 2:13 am 
Subject: Re: "semantic" etymology and my dream

    Although I'm a fan of Bronkhorst, I'm not a fan of this term "semantic
etymology".

Max Stirner (a 19th century German philosopher) asserted the etymology
of "religion" was "to bind back", viz., our religion is whatever we
bind ourselves to, or find ourselves restrained by.

This is to posit [Latin] /re/ + /ligare/ (ligo) as the etymology.

Is this more or less "semantic" than what we commonly find in dictionaries?

Is it more or less "historical"?

No, the question, really, is whether or not it is false; and like so
many examples in the classical Indian context, this one, too, is
asserted from the first as a kind of fallacy.

It is not a true word-origin, it is a tacit (philosophical) argument,
presented as if the etymology of a word.  Thus, "false etymology".

E.M. 

#2422
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 4:02 am 
Subject: Canda-saarattha-.tiikaa
  
    Hello,

According to Malalasekera (PLC 198 and DPPN) there is a .tiikaa to the
Sambandha-cintaa called Canda-saarattha-.tiikaa. The author is
Saddhamma~naana of Pagaan, 14th century, and the work is mentioned in
the Pi.taka-tthamain p. 74 . I don't think that ''canda'' makes sense
and that it should rather be ''chanda-.'' However, the Sambandhacintaa
does not deal with prosody, ''chanda,'' but with verbs and their use in
syntax. Does anyone know the correct name of this .tiikaa? Is it a
.tiikaa to the Sambandhacintaa or to a work on prosody?
According to Malalasekera (PLC 199) Saddhamma~naa.na also wrote a
Vuttodaya-pa~ncikaa and this definitely is a work on prosody.

Regards,
               Bhikkhu Nyanatusita 

#2423
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 7:27 am 
Subject: canda

    Dear Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,

The use of Canda (< Candra) makes sense as the Sambandha-cintaa to a large
extent reflects the treatment of syntax in Candravyaakara.na. This grammar
was well known to some of the Pali grammarians and some of the commentators,
who occasionally refer to it.

Regards,

Ole Holten Pind

#2424
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 5, 2008 7:44 am 
Subject: Re: canda

    Dear Ole,

Thanks. This makes things clear. I was not aware of the Sanskrit grammar.
Also, although late, thanks for the help with the odd Visuddhimagga passage.


Regards,
                Bh. Nyanatusita

2008/8/5 Ole Holten Pind <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk>

>   Dear Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,
>
> The use of Canda (< Candra) makes sense as the Sambandha-cintaa to a large
> extent reflects the treatment of syntax in Candravyaakara.na. This grammar
> was well known to some of the Pali grammarians and some of the
> commentators,
> who occasionally refer to it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ole Holten Pind

#2425
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 9:37 am 
Subject: canda

    Dear Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,

Just an additional note on Canda. The influence of Candra´s grammar on the
Pali grammarians is noticeable, for instance, in Mogg II 41, which defines
the use of the genitive as cat.th.ii sambandhe evidently imitating Candra
II.1:95: s.as.th.ii sambandhe. The same interpretation is also found in
Buddhapiya´s Ruupasiddhi on Kacc 303 saamismi.m chat.th.ii. This dependence
appears to have been recognized by the tradition.

Regards,
Ole Holten Pind

#2426
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Aug 6, 2008 11:39 am 
Subject: Magadhisms in the Pali canon

    Eisel Mazard has recently presented an example of an allegedly original
Magadhism in the Pali canon and indicated why it is dubious. One might add
isipatana, and there are many others. Take, for instance, the well
established doctrine that the vocative bhikkhave is a Magadhism in contrast
to the vocative bhikkhavo. Now bhikkhave never occurs in sentence initial
position and in verse. Examples are legion. bhikkhavo, on the other hand,
never occurs except in sentence initial position and in verse. Examples are
limited, less than 150.  Thus the conclusion that the occurrences are
linguistically motivated and do not reflect an allegedly original canonical
stratum in Magadhi is unavoidable. I have written a paper about the problem,
which was noticed by the great Pali grammarians Aggavam.sa, who addressed
the issue in his Saddaniiti. The paper will in due course of time appear in
JAOS.

Regards,
Ole Holten Pind

#2427
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:13 am 
Subject: The problem with "Sakka" in Lao Buddhism

    A solution to a certain puzzle occurred to me today.

I had a few discussions in Laos (variously conducted in broken Lao &
broken English) wherein I was lectured that the Buddha was "the son of
god" --and, in at least two cases, this was told to me by ex-monks,
who had learned it from senior monks, and who insisted that this was
canonical.

From what they told me, and in response to a few questions, it was at
least clear to me that they did not mean "god" in the European sense,
nor Brahma, nor "the heavens" abstractly --but they meant a specific
god.

At the time, I had just alluded to the "standard biography",
incredulously, asking, in effect, didn't they know the Buddha's father
was a king -- a mere mortal.  On one occasion (viz., the only Laotian
I discussed this with who replied in English), this resulted in real
exasperation, as if to say, "No, not THAT father...".  This was even
more alarming to me, as it suggested both a heavenly father and an
early one (such as Joseph to Jesus, etc.).

Today, a simple solution to this occurred to me:

In Laos (if not in Thailand, also) they have been reading one of the
forms of /saakiya/ as if it were the proper noun /sakka/.  They are
mistaking the Buddha's clan-name (/sakka/, adjective) for the name of
Indra or Zeus (/Sakka/, noun).

Thus, the Buddha is taken for "the son of god", doubtless because of
adjective phrases such as /sakka-putta/.  It is quite possible that
this mis-reading emerged in the 20th century --I have no claims to its
ancient authenticity --and, while wisdom ages, ignorance is ever new.
I am not aware of any European scholar having ever made this mistake
(though it seems natural enough); perhaps this reflects how profoundly
un-grammatical the Lao (and possibly Thai) approach to the texts is,
viz., treating the structure of the language as if it were a string of
monosyllables.

I've never seen anything written on this, but I assume the common root
of /saakiya/ & /sokya/ is something like /sa/ + /okkaaka/ + /ya/ (the
latter lending some kind of passive or reflexive sound to it, rather
than another noun-ending?).  "Those who were well-descended from
/Okkaaka/"?

(The commentarial etymology, listed in M.'s Dict. of Proper Names, is:
_When Okkaaka heard of this, he praised their action, saying, "Sakyaa
vata bho kumaaraa, paramasakyaa vata bho raajakumaara; hence their
name came to be "Sakyaa"_).

E.M. 

#2428
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:54 pm 
Subject: Re: The problem with "Sakka" in Lao Buddhism

    Looking at this message now, this morning, I see numerous errors
(e.g., "early" for "earthly").

Evidently I was too tired last night even to undertake such a casual message.

I've been trying to wake up at 5:30AM or 6, in order to work on Pali
before my editing responsibilities --the latter now involves some six
books, all scholarship that is well worth my attention, but "other
people's scholarship" nonetheless.

What I was suggesting about /okkaaka/  being the possible origin of
the diverse spellings /saakiya/ , /sokya/ & /sakka/ relies on the
first /sa/ as /sva/ (viz., unto themselves).  This would reflect the
ferocious endogamy of the clan in question --but is probably a "false
etymology", too, arising just from my exhaustion.

Apologies.

E.M. 

#2429
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:14 pm 
Subject: Scholarly appraisal of the Indian edition?

    I have been looking into acquiring the Indian edition of the Tipitaka
(as I've written to this list before, it was reprinted in Taiwan)
--weight and freight, not the cost, giving pause for reconsideration.

I have never seen a scholarly critique or appraisal of that edition (I
remember Jim's own comments on it, when we met in person).

I take it that,
(1) R.D. Vadekar was among the scholars working on its composition
(along with others from the old days of the Maha-Bodhi society, I
suppose?), and
(2) The work of preparing the text spanned decades, something like
1905 - 1935?  The final publication of the text was considerably
later: circa 1951 - 1955?  Possibly the second world war and Indian
struggle for independence, etc., delayed publication?
(3) The printing, thereafter, was supported by "the Government of
India and the Government of Bihar" --but they had no influence over
the earlier development of the project?

It must have been reviewed and evaluated in the RAS, PTS, etc. of its day.

Does anyone have a citation or lead on a good article concerning the
work itself, its faults or its virtues, as an edition?

E.M. 

#2430
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:33 pm 
Subject: Re: Scholarly appraisal of the Indian edition?
  
    Dear Eisel,

I don't know of any scholarly critique/review of the Indian edition of the
Tipitaka but perhaps I can make a few comments about this edition since I
have the complete set (less one volume). I received my first shipment from
Motilal Banarsidass in January, 1977 at $1.21 per volume including the
postage. It's in the Devanagari script and each volume comes with a general
preface (by S. Radhakrishnan) and an introduction in both Hindi (i think)
and English. There is also a Devanagari-Roman transliteration table. The
general editor of this edition is Bhikkhu J. Kashyap and it was first
published by the Pali Publication Board (Bihar Government) in the late
1950's and into the early 1960's. It is based mostly on the Burmese
Chatthasangayana edition and has variant readings for the PTS, Burmese,
Sinhalese, and Thai printed editions in  the fottnotes. I have found this
edition to be quite reliable and free of typos. J. Kashyap knew Kaccaayana's
grammar by heart and even published an Indian edition of this work. The
founder of FWBO, Sangharakshita, studied Pali with him. I believe the
Nalanda College of Buddhist Studies in Toronto has the Indian edition that
was reprinted in Taiwan.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2431
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:26 pm 
Subject: Re: Scholarly appraisal of the Indian edition?

    Hi Jim,

For me, the really bad new is this:

> It is based mostly on the Burmese
> Chatthasangayana edition ...

I was hoping that it would have LESS "Burmese influence" than the
other editions, and therefore be better suited to comparative
readings, etc. etc.

> J. Kashyap knew Kaccaayana's
> grammar by heart and even published an Indian edition of this work.

Yes, "in those days" there were Pali scholars in India.

E.M. 

#2432
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:07 am 
Subject: Re: Scholarly appraisal of the Indian edition?

   Hi Eisel,

> For me, the really bad new is this:
>
> > It is based mostly on the Burmese
> > Chatthasangayana edition ...
>
> I was hoping that it would have LESS "Burmese influence" than the
> other editions, and therefore be better suited to comparative
> readings, etc. etc.

Here's an excerpt (p. xiii) from the Introduction to the Paaraajika volume
to give a better idea of what it is based on:

<< 5. The Present Edition

This presents a co-ordinated edition in Devanaagarii of the third book of
the Vinaya Pitaka, the Paaraajika, based on the following versions of the
text :-- Burmese Cha.t.thasa"ngaayana publication, 1956; Sinhalese -- edited
by Rev. Telwatte Shri Aryawansa Swami, 1913; Siamese -- Mahaamaku.ta
Government publication, 1926; Roman -- edited by Hermann Oldenberg,
1881.For preparing our MSS, we have adopted the Cha.t.thasa"ngaayana
edition as our basic text, an edition that has been brought out by the
efforts and sanction of the international Sangha constituting of the zealous
holders of the orthodox Theravaada tradition. >>

The versions used would vary according to the volume of the
Indian edition.. The Paaraajika volume should be the first volume of the
Vinayapi.taka according to Buddhaghosa's  commentary, not the third.
The PTS and Indian editions place it as third with Mahaavagga as first.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2433
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:04 pm 
Subject: Re: Scholarly appraisal of the Indian edition?
 
    Hmmm, I suppose this is "bad news" from Taiwan.

E.M.

-----
We don't have any one set of HINDI PALI - DEVANAGAR TRIPITAKA in stock now.
Most of HINDI PALI - DEVANAGAR TRIPITAKA are distributed to the
VIPASSANA RESEARCH INSTITUTE, IGATPURI.
If you want to order one set, you can directly contact with them. The
following is their information.

VIPASSANA RESEARCH INSTITUTE, IGATPURI

MR. NARESH GIDWANIYA / DR. O. P. PATHAK / MR. A. K. GAGGAR

VIPASSANA RESEARCH INSTITUTE, DHAMMAGIRI,

IGATPURI - 422403, MAHARASHTRA STATE, INDIA

TEL: (+91) 22 2266 4039, 2266 2213

FAX: (+91) 22-2493 6166 c/o Mr. Gajjar ; (+91) 22-2266 4607 c/o Mr. Naresh

E-MAIL: ibtc@vsnl.com, dhananjay65@gmail.com, agaggar@chemito.net



Note: Because Vipassana Research Institute spent much time and money
for the Devanagari Pali Tipitaka for many years. And we know there is
increasing interest in Pali in India and many new Pali academic
programs are coming up. This Tipitaka set is useful for students and
scholars at such institutes.

So the Devanagari Pali Tipitaka can be only distributed to the
individual or institute can make optimum use of them. If there is any
Pali studies programs in your organization, please provide the more
details for Vipassana Research Institute. 

#2434
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:22 am 
Subject: The Thai edition of Tipitaka (*SIGH*)

    In recent days I had a detailed discussion with a man (here to be
treated as anonymous) who worked for years (directly) with the
"Supreme Patriarch" of Thailand's Thammayut Nikay (viz., Dhammayuttika
Nikaya), and had empirical experience with the preparation of the
official editions Pali texts at their headquarters and allied
institutions.

He both "saw" and was involved in the preparation, error-checking,
etc., for the main canon, over a period of years, and described the
failings of this procedure to me, and also commented on various
arrangements and problems pertaining to specific texts as illustrative
examples.

This was highly instructive for me, but, even given my own prior
awareness of fundamental problems in the religious establishment and
the texts it produces, this was nevertheless shocking in its
implications, and horrifying in its details.  I do not think it would
be appropriate for me to repeat those details, in part because it
simply isn't my story to tell.

The news is made worse in that each of the institutions involved is
heavily funded ("drowning" in donations); they have huge quantities of
money coming in, and significant expenditures going out (e.g., in
salaries for dubious appointments), yet what they are accomplishing is
worse than nothing.

I have generally avoided using any of the Thai editions, due to
problems that I was (heretofore) already aware of; this "interview"
opened my eyes to problems I was not formerly aware of, and I can only
offer a very serious warning that all the Pali editions in Thai glyphs
are to be regarded as purely decorative --viz., their purpose here in
Thailand being the adornment of temple walls, nothing more, I lament
to report their contents are not suited to any other purpose besides.

In the contest for "worst edition" of the suttas, I can only say this:
the Cambodians may have some tough competition here in Thailand.

On a more factually neutral note: I did not know that the "yellow
edition" (viz., Thammayut) has been produced in isolation from the
"blue edition" (viz., Mahanikay --the other sect in Thailand).
Reportedly, they really are based on a different Pali source, with an
entirely separate committee of editors (etc.), and all of the typing,
etc., was carried out in mutual-isolation (and with redundancy) --to
similarly abysmal standards.  For reasons of sect patronage (rather
than sectarianism, _per se_) there is no common source to the two Thai
editions, except the Burmese edition --and the blue tomes (reportedly)
are more directly derivative of the Burmese than the yellow.

I would here mention, in passing, that I have yet to hear/read a
scholarly appraisal of the Mon edition of the Tipitaka (viz., typeset
in Pali characters, orthographically 90% identical to Burmese, i.e.,
if you can read Burmese-script-Pali, you could learn Mon-Pali in a
single day's work).  I believe I reported to this list my horror at
finding that the copy of this rare (printed) edition held at Bangkok's
National Library was rotting away to pieces, and soon would be no
longer extant; however, Filliozat reassured me somewhat that there is
a complete set of these texts preserved in Paris --and "preserved"
rather than rotting.

As with other "bad news" I've lately received, I'm left to reflect on
the "diminishing returns" of these various projects to produce more
and more editions (digital & paper) that rely on nothing more than
comparing Fausboll's work (and old PTS editions generally) to the
Burmese edition --and the comparison is rarely conducted by scholars
with the means to do anything more than note differences where they
find them.

Does the 21st century have so little interest in original manuscript
research that we are left with nothing to do nothing but re-hash the
findings of the 19th?

E.M. 

#2435
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:03 am 
Subject: E.J. Brill takes on Indo-European Etymology, Asian fonts (no, I'm not kidding)

    (1) [If they're going to press with Proto-Nostratic, can a Pali
etymological project be far behind?]

The Leiden Indo-European Etymological Dictionary series publishes the
results of a major Leiden University project identifying and
describing the common lexical heritage of the Indo-European languages.
Under the supervision of Alexander Lubotsky and Robert Beekes, an
international team of historical linguists has for more than a decade
researched, collected and integrated a growing corpus of linguistic
data into one large database of the common Indo-European vocabulary.
The data is published in a series of etymological dictionaries and
will be concluded by the publication of a large Indo-European
Etymological Dictionary, deemed as a successor of Julius Pokorny's
standard work published in 1959. An accompanying website, which
contains the research database of the project, is currently available
at www.ieed.nl. In the near future, an online database, containing the
full integrated and updated information, will be made available
through Brill.

This product consists of the following titles
7. Etymological Dictionary of Latin
Michiel de Vaan

6. Reconstructing Proto-Nostratic
Allan R. Bomhard

5. Etymological Dictionary of the Hittite Inherited Lexicon
Alwin Kloekhorst

4. Etymological Dictionary of the Slavic Inherited Lexicon
Rick Derksen

3. The Origin of the Indo-Iranians
Elena E. Kuz'mina. Edited by J.P. Mallory

2. Etymological Dictionary of the Iranian Verb
Johnny Cheung

1. Old Frisian Etymological Dictionary
Dirk Boutkan and Sjoerd Michiel Siebinga

-----
(2.) Ancient, academic publisher E.J. Brill is trying to recapture its
18th century reputation for being at the forefront of typography in
Asian languages.

They've rather lost that reputation in recent decades, IMO.

Their proof-of-passion for catching up with the world of Unicode
typography, especially for languages other than English, is stated
here:

http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=194

E.M. 

#2436
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am 
Subject: The Mon edition of the Pali canon (AGAIN!)

    The Journal of the Siam Society [JSS] for 1983 (vol. 71, pt. 1 & 2)
contains what is, evidently, a very influential article from Hinuber.

On the basis of a cursory examination of two (very fragmentary) old
Lanna manuscripts, his enthusiasm suggests that Northern Thailand
(and, better still, mysterious Laos) may be troves of major new finds
for Pali scholars.

It also contains a very appealing (but, to my mind, purely
conjectural) suggestion as to the Mon version of the Pali canon:
   "Although very little, rather next to nothing, is known about the
early history of the Mon canon in Pali, its origin appears to have
been South Indian rather than Ceylonese, which would account for the
canonical quotations cited by Aggava.msa in his Saddaniiti composed in
1154 ... [etc.]"

This seems to me, very simply, to be an untested hypothesis that is
(still) worth testing.

With about the same degree of [un-]certainty that we may say, "the
S.N. will show greater variance between Sinhalese and non-Sinhalese
editions..." --we may likewise say that the Mon ought to (at least)
preserve significant differences in their Vinaya (viz., resisting
Burmese influence, in comparison to Sinhalese sources, etc.).

However, even this is logical, not empirical, based on historical and
cultural facts, not on any direct MS research (and I would note that
the obliteration of any trace of an independent Pali transmission
among the Shan, in Burma, gives us cause for the utmost caution in
assuming that the Mon were able to keep much of their own Pali textual
continuum, etc. etc.).  The very strength of Burmese orthodoxy that
preserved their own texts so well, served to erase several adjacent
traditions (or very nearly so: Shan, Arakan/Chittagong, Mon, etc.
--I've never even heard talk of a Karen transmission, extant or
non-extant, but...).

In addition to the possibility that Mon texts might be under the sway
of Burmese influence, there is the fact that the printed editions were
(primarily) printed in Thailand, and fit into the unique historical
narrative of Rama IV's patronage of the Mon monks.  [I have posted a
list of the Mon-Pali editions know to me to this list before, again,
many years ago]

It is quite possible that at least some of those Mon editions are just
the same text found in contemporaneous Thai editions, "got up" in Mon
orthography.  However, the fact that Rama IV did directly patronize
the Mon Vinaya exams, holds out some hope that at least Vinaya texts
were preserved separately in that tradition (and, hopefully, that
transmission was kept separate from the Burmese before, etc.).

It is a great shame that Thailand's National Library has sequestered
all the Mon books on the upper floors (they were on the normal book
shelves a few years ago) --as I now cannot get at them without writing
a letter to Parliament (etc.).

I was re-assured by Filliozat that all of the Mon (printed) editions
are preserved at the EFEO in Paris.  I needed re-assurance, as the
copies in Bangkok that I had seen were rotting away before my eyes,
and crumbling in my hands.

At any rate: going to Paris is the only method I now know of
investigating the matter, and this is, perhaps, a task best left to
the numerous Mon residents, who also happen to be Pali scholars,
living and working in Paris.

I have also written to this list, long ago, about my visit to Ko Kret
(the ethnically Mon island, with various MS), etc. etc. --and Peter
Skilling published one issue of Fragile Palm Leaves dedicated to the
Mon even a few years before that.  There was a 2007 conference in
Bangkok on Mon studies, to further raise the importance of this area
of research, and I am presently (STILL) engaged in effort to reprint
(or prepare a new edition of) Ketumati's quadra-lingual textbook for
the Mon language (with distribution to the Mon in refugee camps along
the Thai border in mind, etc.) --in fact, I wrote e-mail to two
different Mon scholars and a third linguist this week about that
(remote possibility though it might be).

But all that stands in rather absurd contrast to the fact that the
basic value of comparative reading of the Mon canon (viz., even the
printed editions, apart from the MS) remains unknown --an untested
hypothesis.

I am agonizing over this now, as I am reviewing all of the available
scholarship as to just how bad the various (available) printed
editions of Pali texts really are --and how the bulk of them just
derive from the same, common stock of MS (either the Burmese council
edition, or Fausboll, smoking his cigars in Copenhagen...).

And, to come back briefly to Lanna: while the particular findings of
Hinuber's article are not in dispute, the fact remains that they are
PARTICULAR.

Having spent quite a lot of time looking around for Pali manuscripts
and talking to other manuscript researchers in Laos and Northern
Thailand (over a period of 3 years), I do not share any of the
optimism that Hinuber felt when, "by chance" (as he puts it) he
happened upon two historically significant (but very fragmentary)
manuscripts.  His "chance" was, in fact, very much augmented by the
cumulative results of Hundius's cataloges and surveys, conducted over
the years before (and continuing afterward).

The article did, extremely briefly, make a favourable mention of the
Hewawitarne Bequest edition (primarily known for the commentaries but
including some, not all, source Sutta texts) --I am trying to
reconcile myself to buying the latter, and hoping that it is superior
to the better-known BJT editions.  Apparently the Hewawitarne ed. had
Malalasekera as an editor, so it may really be, as Hinuber so briefly
mentions, the preferable representative of the Sinhalese tradition (in
print) for comparative readings.

E.M. 

#2437
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:36 am 
Subject: Pali in print: a review covering 1870 to 1959

    I have compressed this considerably, to make a more rapid reference
out of it; all changes to the text are indicated in square brackets,
including the ellipsis for each omission.

Perhaps someone would undertake a similar article for 1959 to 2009?

E.M.
-----
[Original source:]
V. P. Bapat. 2500 Years of Buddhism. (Delhi: Ministry of Information
and Broadcasting, Government of India, 1st Ed. 1959), pp. 370-83.

[Digital:]
http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/world/figure/005-progress.htm

Progress of Buddhist Studies in Ceylon, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia,
Laos, Vietnam, China and Japan
Prof. P.V. Bapat and Dr. J.N. Takasaki


[Sec. 1: SRI LANKA / CEYLON]
[...]
The venerable elders [at he Vidyodaya College, Colombo (founded 1872)
& Vidyalankara College, Kelaniya (founded 1873)] saw the necessity of
having Pali literature printed for the people and books were thus
published both in Pali and Sanskrit. The Publication of the Mahavamsa
and its translation into Simlialese [sic!] were undertaken by the
Venerable H. Sumangala, the Principal of the Vidyodaya College, and
Pandit Batuwantudawe. The Abhidhanappadipika, a Pali lexicon, and the
Namamala were edited by the Venerable Subhuti. At the request of Sir
Robert Chalmers, then Governor of Ceylon, the commentary of the
Majjhima-nikaya was edited by the Venerable Dhammarama, the second
Principal of the Vidyalankara College.
[...]
Simon Hewavitarane, the youngest brother of Anagarika Dharmapala, left
a large legacy which was to be used for the printing and publishing of
Pali books. Over 49 volumes of commentaries on the canonical texts of
the Pali Tripitaka have been published. Among the published texts are
the Cariya-Pitaka (1950), the Parajika the first volume of the
Pinaya-Pitaka [sic!] (1950), the Dhammasangani (1952), and the Jataka
Pali (gatha, 1954).

Stray volumes of the Tripitaka and commentaries were also published at
the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, but most of
these books and commentaries, including those in the Simon
Hewavitarane Series, are now out of print.

The Abhidhammattha-Vibhavani (1933) and the Atthasalinimula Tika
(1938), published in the Vidyodaya Tika Publication Series, may also
be mentioned. In the manatunga Series, too, there appeared three
volumes of the Digha-Nikaya (1929). One very interesting tika on the
Samanta-Pasadika, the Vimati-Vinodani by Coliya Kassapa, was published
with indexes by Dr. H. GabrieI de Silva (1935). It had been preceded
by the Sarattha-Dipani (1914), another tika on the Samanta-Pasadika,
which, however, remained incomplete.

It is now planned to publish afresh the Texts and their Simlialese
[sic!] translations under the direction of Prof. G.P. Malalsekera, who
is well known for his Pali Literature of Ceylon (London, 1928) and for
his Dictionary of Pali Proper Names in two volumes (1937-38). A
complete edition of the Cullavagga and portions of the Digha and the
Samyutta-Nikayas have already been published with Simlialese
translations. At [sic!] the Simlialese [sic!] translations of the Pali
Texts are in great demand, Dr. A.P. de Soyza, a zealous Buddhist, has
published translations of the Digha, the Majjhima and the Samyutta.
With the foundation of the University of Ceylon, particularly since
Ceylon achieved independence, new scholars have begun to enter the
field. N.A. Jaya Vikrama has contributed a fine critical commentary on
the Suttanipata (University of Ceylon Review, 1948-50). Prof. O.H. de
Wijesekera has correlated Pali studies with studies in earlier Vedic
literature and his papers on Yaksa, Gandharva and Indra, as well as
some from his former pupil, Charles Godage (University of Ceylon
Review, Vol. 1, No. 2, November 1943, and Vol. Ill, April 1945),
deserve to be read. In 1946, Dr. Adikaran published his Early History
of Buddhism in Ceylon, followed by W. Rahula's History of Buddhism in
Ceylon (1956) based on original Pali sources.

Old style scholars among the monks have also given us some fine books.
The Rev. Widurapola Piyatissa wrote Mahakassapahcarita (1934) and
Mahanekkhamma Campu (1935), edited the Jataka-Atthakatha in ten
volumes, and edited commentaries on the Netti-Pakarana and the
Samyutla-Nikaya. The commentaries published in the Simon Hewavitarane
Series are also edited by learned Elders.

In order to popularize the study of Pali among school-children, it was
necessary to simplify the teaching of Pali grammar. In 1912 the Rev.
Suriyagoda Sumangala compiled a graduated Pali course, on the model of
13handarkar's [sic!] Sanskrit Readers in India. The Rev. A.P.
Buddhadatta, who was given the title of Agga-Mahapandita by the
Burmese Government in 1954, published New Pali Course, Parts 1(1937)
and 11 [sic!] (1939), Higherpali [sic!] Course, Aid to Pali
Conversation and Concise Pali-English Dictionary (1949). The Rev. A.P.
Buddhadatta has become famous for his edition of the Visuddhimagga
(1914) and of the Apadana (1930) in Simlialese [sic!] characters and
for his editions, for the Pali Text Society, of the
Namarupa-Pariccheda (1914), the Abhidhammavatara (1915), the
Sammoha-Vinodani commentary on the Vibhanga (1923), the
Vinaya-Uttara-Vinicehaya (192.8 [sic?]), the Saddhamma-Pajjotika (3
vols.) and the commentary- on the Niddesa. He has written numerous
scholarly books in the Simlialese [sic!] language and brought out an
English-Pali dictionary (1955). A similar work was prepared by the
Rev. Widurupolapiyatissa in 1949. He also edited the
Visuddhimagga-Ganthi, a small commentary in Simlialese [sic!]
characters explaining intricate points in that work. It was with his
help that a copy of this manuscript in Burmese characters was obtained
from a Burmese monastery near Ambalangoda. [...]

[Venerable Narada Thera] has also written a life of the Buddha along
with the text and translation of Chapter 1 of the
Abhidhammattha-Sangaha. Several editions of the Dhammapada have
appeared and one prepared by B. Siri Sivali (1954) is presented very
attractively, the text being given in the Simlialese [sic!] and Roman
scripts on pages on the left and the translations in Simlialese [sic!]
and English on the right.

The Rev. Nyanatiloka, a German Buddhist monk of the Dodanduwa Island,
gave us a very useful book in his Guide Through the Abhidhamma-Pitaka
(1938). He has also prepared a German translation of the Visuddhimagga
which has so far been printed only in part. The Government of Ceylon
has awakened to the fact that it, too, must encourage Buddhist
studies. Accordingly, the task of publishing the Pali texts and their
Simlialese [sic!] translations has been entrusted to the Vidyalankara
authorities. It has also been decided to bring out a Buddhist
encyclopaedia [AFAIK, this was never completed, but individual
articles can be purchased as off-prints and the project still has
offices in Colombo --E.M.] and arrangements are being made for its
preparation under the general editorship of Prof. G.P. Malalsekera.
[...]

[Sec. 2: BURMA]

[...]
Burma can boast of two or three printing presses like the Hanthawady
Press the P.G. Mundyne Pitaka Press and the Zabu Meet Swe Press where
Pali books, the Atthakathas, and sub-commentaries on the Abhidhamma
are printed.
[...]
At the beginning of this century, [...] Ledi Sayadaw [...] wrote on
the Yamaka and selections from it, as well as his article, 'Philosophy
of Relations', was published by the Pali Text Society in 1914 and in
1916. Recently, two other great scholars passed away. One of them,
Abhidliaja Maha Rattha-Guru Nyaungyan Sayadaw (1874-1955), was elected
Sanghanayak, or the presiding Mahathera. He has to his credit some 150
manuals on Buddhism [?writ in Pali?] among which are Mehasamaya-Sutta,
Brahmanimantanasutta, Hemavata-Sutta, Silakkhandha-Tika and
Namakkara-tika. Another notable scholar was the Venerable Mingun
Sayadaw (1868-1955) of Thaton who wrote Milinda-Atthakatha (1949),
Petakopadesaatthakatha, Kathinaviniccaya and Nibbanakatha [?viz.,
original compositions in Pali?]. He was looked upon with great
disfavour by the ecclesiastical authorities as well as the Government
of Burma for having expressed in his commentary on the Milinda
independent views regarding the possibility of giving women a higher
ordination by the Order of the Buddhist Monks.

Charles Duroiselle made a name for himself through his writings or
various archaeological finds in Burma and also wrote a small book
entitled Practical Grammar.  Z Aung's Compendium of Philosophy (1910),
a masterly treatise, is an annotated translation of the small
Abhidhamma manual, the Abhidhammattha-sangaha. Aung also wrote an
account of Abhidhamma literature in Burma (1912). Later, he translated
the Kathavatthu into English in Points of Controversy (1915). Mrs. C.
Rhys Davids was his collaborator in the first and third of the works
mentioned above. Prof. Maung Tin gave us the English translation of
the Atthasalini in his Expositor (2 vols., 1920-21), and of the
Visuddhimagga in his Path of Purity (3 vols., 1922-31). We may also
mention the names of the late Ledi Pandit U. Maung, Gyi and the late
U. Lin who wrote on subjects relating to the Abhidhamma. Nor must we
forget the Rev. Pannaloka Mahathera who has written on Abhidhamma
subjects in Bengali.

     Since Burma became independent, the Burmese Government has taken
swift measures to bring about the revival of Buddhism and Buddhist
studies. A Buddha Sasana Council was established and under its
auspices [...] the basic text, as recorded in 729 stone slabs ' at the
Kuthodaw temple in Mandalay, was compared and a final text
established. The Sangayana (recital) of such a text was done and the
text as recited was first published in 1956. It is understood that the
whole Pali text in Burmese characters and the Burmese translation of
the whole of the Tripitaka has been published.

  [Sec. 3: THAILAND]

[...]
Thailand has always been in the forefront of Buddhist studies and it
is a matter of gratification that as many as forty-five volumes of the
Pali Tripitaka, at least thirty volumes of the Atthakathas, and ten
volumes of the Pakaranas have been published in Siamese script. A
special feature of Siamese books is that they contain indexes, however
meagre they may be.

It may be noted that the Vajiranana Manuscript Library at Bangkok
[viz., a collection now in the "Mongkut Krao Rare Book Room" at BK's
National Library --E.M.] has a rich collection of manuscripts, some of
which are extremely rare. There is a new commentary on the
Visuddhimagga, the Sankhepattha-jotani which begins with the works
Svasti Buddhaya (Hail to the Buddha!). In Thailand also is preserved a
rare book, the Sangitivamsa, which mentions as many as nine councils.

Pancika-Nama-Atthayojana, a work on the Abhidhammatthavibhavani (which
itself is a tika on the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha), is another rare
printed book in two volumes which have an index. Another book,
Mangalattha-Dipani (1951-53), gives a detailed exposition of the
gathas of the famous Mangala-Sutta and is highly spoken of in
Thailand. Other important new books are Jinakalamalini, and
Samantapasadika-Attha-Yojana.
[...]

[Sec. 4: CAMBODIA]

[...]
In 1914 the Government opened in Phnom-penh, the capital of Cambodia,
a Pali High School where young monks were instructed and given
diplomas after four years' training. The instruction was not confined
to religious subjects but also included subjects useful in the
temporal world. This school has now developed into a college. In 1933,
the authorities began to establish elementary Pali schools where the
monks took a three years' course. Out of these schools have now
developed the schools of Dhamma-Vinaya, where all monks are trained.
This year a Buddhist University named after Preah Sihanu-Raja has also
been started.

To supplement this programme of religious instruction in Phnompenh a
Royal Library was opened in 1925 and a Buddhist Institute in 1930. A
little later, the Government appointed a Tripitaka Board consisting of
eminent scholars, who were. asked to prepare for publication Pali
texts and their Cambodian translations. The literary output of these
institutions is highly creditable. Out of the 110 volumes contemplated
in the bilingual series, 55 have already been published. A copy of all
the- texts of the Pali Canon written by hand was sent to the Sixth
Council (Chattha Sangayana) which was held at Rangoon. Among the other
ten volumes published in Pali (1938-54), are the Abhidhammamatika
(1953), the Chappakarana Abhidhamma (1950), the Abhidhammattha-sangaha
(1938), the Bhikkhupatimokkha (1950), the Visuddhimagga (1946) and the
Mangalattha-Dipani (1952). [NB: four other works in Pali are not
mentioned, for a total of ten; I would hypothesize that the Patimokkha
and Dhammapada editions I've seen are two, and it is likely that the
four are not specified simply because the are, similarly, common
--E.M.]  No fewer than 187 volumes, mostly on religious subjects, have
been published in the Cambodian language by the various libraries and
institutions already mentioned.
[...]

[Sec. 5: LAOS]

[...]
It appears, however, that there exist in Laos many texts which are
word-to-word commentaries or Nissayas of the Pali texts. In
Luangbrabang, the capital, in a small temple on the hill, there is a
library of manuscripts in which we find a Laotian Nissaya of the
Visuddhimagga. It begins with the words Namo tassa (Bhagavato) atthu
instead of the usual formula of Namo tassa Bhagavato Arhato
Samma-sambuddhassa (Bow to the Blessed, the Deserving and Fully
Enlightened Buddha).

In this country, the Jatakas enjoy great popularity and separate
collections of ten and of fifty Jatakas are available. The order of
the ten Jatakas, however, differs from that in Fausboll's edition.
There is also a collection of fifty Jatakas which is current in other
countries in South-East Asia, such as Siam, Cambodia and Burma. What
is peculiar to the independent Laotian version, however, is that it
contains 27 stories which are not found in any other collection (see,
Henri Deydier, Introduction a la Connaissance du Laos, Saigon: 1952,
p. 29). Lists of the Jatakas in the collection of the ten and fifty
are given below [here omitted --E.M.].

[...]There is also a sutta called the Jambupattisutta, which is
peculiar to this country and is portrayed in the wall paintings of the
Library building on Val Pha Ouak, the hill in Luangprabang. King
Jambupatti, wishing to dazzle the Buddha, visited him in great state,
but saw the latter sitting on his throne, beautiful as a god and
dressed in the shining apparel of a King of Kings (Rajadhiraja). This
represents the conception of the Buddha as the equal of a Cakravarti
monarch. In a scene depicted in a wall painting in this temple, the
Buddha is represented as pointing to Jambupatti the torments he must
suffer if does not follow the principles of the Vinaya.

[Sec. 6 = Vienam, here omitted]

[Sec. 7 = China, here omitted]

[Sec. 8 = JAPAN]

[...]
The work of the Pali Text Society in London greatly influenced the
outlook of Japanese scholars. Following its example, the gigantic task
of translating the Pali Canon into Japanese was undertaken and
completed in 65 volumes under the supervision of J. Takakusu, a former
professor of Tokyo University, and M. Nagai, also a retired professor
of Tokyo University. Japanese scholars have shown remarkable zeal and
a special capacity for the comparative study of Pali texts and Tibetan
and Chinese translations of Buddhist canons, which has gone a long way
in correctly interpreting early Buddhism and its development. C.
Akanuma, a Professor of Otani University, was one of the most
outstanding scholars of Pali Buddhism. His Dictionary of Pali Proper
Names (Nagoya, 1931), and Comparative Catalogue of the Pali Canon and
its Chinese Versions have been hailed as works of great learning. The
Samanta-Pasadika was edited by J. Takakusu and M. Nagai, while Ethics
of Buddhism was published by S. Tachibana of Koinazawa University.
Anesaki's The Four Buddhist Agamas in Chinese is also a famous work.

The study of Pali Buddhism has now developed into that of the Agama,
the Abhidhamma and the Vinaya. Each of these branches is under the
supervision of a competent scholar. Funahashi, of Otani University, is
working on the Agama, R. Higata, of Kyushu University, on the Jataka,
K. Mizunu, of Kornazawa University, and G. Sasaki, of Otani
University, on the Abhidhamma and M, Nagai on the Vinaya.
[...]

[END]

     Notes and References

     [1] The author is indebted to the Rev. A.P. Buddhadatta of
Ambalangoda, Ceylon, for much of the information in this account.

     [2] The author is indebted to Shri Devaprasad Guha of the pali
Department of the University of Rangoon for certain details in this
account.

     [3] The author is grateful to the Ven. Brah Gru Sanghasattha of
the Buddhist College at Phnom-penh for the material on which this
account is based. Thanks are also due to His Wminence Samdach
Choun-nath Chief of the Mahanikaya in Cambodia through whose courtesy
the material was made available.

     [4] The material for this account was kindly supplied by Mr Mai
Tho. Truye^`n, president of the Association of Buddhist Studies, South
Vietnam, Saigon through the courtesy of monsieur Louis Mallret,
Director, Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient, Saigon.

     [5] This article is based on Chou Hsiang Kuang's Indo-Chinese
Relations, and History of Chinese Buddhism 1955). 

#2438
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:31 am 
Subject: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta] 

    The Ko.t.thita Sutta is an example of simply-worded Pali, used to make
a philosophical argument that is by no means simplisitic.

The only translations I've seen of it seem off-the-mark, from the
thesis on down.

The interlocutor (the eponymous Ko.t.thita) presents the monk
Sariputta with a series of logically linked statements; the first few
would seem to be easy for a Buddhist to agree with, but it leads us to
a somewhat provocative extension of the same reasoning.

I begin by paraphrasing in brief, but will look at the actual wording
and translation below:
   "Whatever is seen ("forms") is the fetter of the eye, whatever is
heard ("sounds") is a fetter for the ear... therefore, isn't it
likewise the case that what is believed ("doctrines") is a fetter for
the mind?"

That is very much a loose paraphrase, stated with the the utmost
brevity, but it brings us rapidly to the point:

The last statement in the sequence of "the question" (not stated as a
question, but posed as a philosophical argument) claims that
in-as-much-as the Buddhists go around preaching this doctrine that we
ought to become unbound from the fetters of the senses [i.e., the
senses' objects], it would seem to be similarly the case that all
doctrines are fetters for the mind [viz., our beliefs, being objects
for the mind, must be similarly binding]:

   / mano dhammaana.m sa~n~nojana.m | dhammaa manassa sa~n~nojananti || /

The pattern of the text here is in two parts, and both Thanissaro &
Walsche have foisted a structure onto them that renders them as
counterposed opposites: "either/or".

The supposed strength of this argument is that, were we to imagine the
question as "either/or", then we may read the answer as "neither/nor";
likely the interpretation started with the latter (viz., looking at
the metaphor later on in the passage), to then read the question at
the beginning in these terms.

This would render the most important part of the text (viz., "the
thesis" posited) incoherent:
   If the interlocutor is, in fact, asking "is the eye binding upon the
seen, or is the thing seen instead binding upon the eye?", then the
pattern of this logic (making sense for the introductory examples)
utterly breaks down when we come to the main point: it simply does not
make sense to ask, "does mind bind the doctrine, or does doctrine
instead bind the mind"?
   This model (followed in Thanissaro & Walsche's translation) could be
summarized in a diagram of the eye and the "form" perceived, with two
different arrows indicating possible directions between the two; apart
from the fact that this is NOT the question actually posed by the
text, this interpretation only makes sense for the examples leading up
to the main point: mind (/mano/) and doctrine (/dhamma/).  Between
mind and doctrine, the question of the direction of the arrows is
either absurd, or a trifle.  In fact, it barely even makes sense for
the example of the body ("bound by contact" vs. "binding contact"), if
at all.

Thanissaro & Walsche's interpretation,
   (1) leans very heavily on the second word of the pattern as dative
plural (above, dhammaana.m), insisting on making this the indirect
object for the (supposedly) tacit copula ("for..."),
   (2) presumes to insert a dysjunctive particle that is not in the
text, viz., postulating it as tacit, and
   (3) relies on the repeated imagining of the tacit copula, viz.,
rendering things definitive and interrogative with "it is" and "is
it?" --again, not actually in the writ of the text (and weakening the
logical structure of the argument, in my opinion).

Under heading #1, I might add that we need not even go so far as to
suggest that this is the genitive plural, but simply that this is one
of the "soft" uses of the dative or genitive (cf. Wijesekera's work on
case-syntax, etc. etc.); it need not imply an indirect object.

For the first half of the phrase pattern, I would propose something
along the lines of:
   "[For] the eye bound with forms, forms [are] the eye's fetter."
Or more verbosely,
   "[Concerning] the eye fettered with forms, [isn't it the case that
these very] forms [are what we mean to say are] the eye's fetter[?]"

If the relation of the first part to the second is not the comparison
of two mutually exclusive opposites, but, simply, the second part is
more precise than the first, then we need not impute "either/or".  In
reading the answer, too, this relieves us of trying to construe a
"neither/nor".  There is only a single negating particle, in the
second part of the phrase-pattern, e.g.:

   / mano dhammaana.m sa~n~nojana.m | na dhammaa manassa sa~n~nojana.mi || /

Philosophically, Sariputta is confronted with the argument (not a
question) that doctrines are to the mind much as objects are to the
senses, viz., fetters.  Therefore, if the Buddha's doctrine is the
abandoning of fetters, it is also the abandoning of doctrines.  This
is construed in a logically rigorous form, and stated in very simple
language.

In reply, Sariputta rejects both the major premise and the minor premise:

   (1) The Buddha's teaching is NOT the liberation of the senses from
their sense objects, viz., not the blotting-out of vision, nor the
blotting out of consciousness (as Bronkhorst has discussed at length
in _The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India_, the opposite
view was held by Jains, etc., and certainly prevailed among some
Buddhists in centuries thereafter, viz., the misconception that the
point of Buddhist praxis is to "cultivate" the mind by "ending"
perception & cognition).
   (2) Likewise, it is not the liberation of the mind from doctrines.

Instead, it is the liberation of the senses and the mind from desire;
in the reply, it is the relationship of desire "in-between" the eye
and the thing seen that is problematized (it is the figurative "yoke"
[sa.m + yojana] offered in explanation of the more abstract binding
that was posed in the question).

The thesis, as posed at the beginning, does not admit of any such
medium "in-between"; the interlocutor's premise is simply, /dhammaa
manassa sa~n~nojananti/ --ad sensum, "doctrines are binding for the
mind".

Although this resembles the Buddhist doctrine it would criticize, it
is not quite correct: the problem is not senses' objects, but our
attachment to the senses' objects; thus, we may follow the same
logical structure in reply ("not forms...", "not sound...", etc.) in
showing that the problem is not doctrines, but attachment to them (nor
is the solution not-having doctrines, nor not-seeing objects).

Only by conflating desire and the desired-object, can Ko.t.thita
create this false dichotomy; however, so far as translation is
concerned, in the thesis (of the interlocutor) it is a dichotomy only
--unlike the reply.

Any comments are welcome; as always, I would be delighted to learn
that I am wrong.

E.M. 

#2439
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:24 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    CLARIFICATION / ADDENDUM.

Although I tried to be brief, and also to avoid criticizing the other
translators at too much length, I think some confusion is inevitable
with the little I've said.

In particular, I must specify that I was not making an abstract
generalization when I remarked (above):

"The supposed strength of this argument is that, were we to imagine the
question as "either/or", then we may read the answer as "neither/nor";
likely the interpretation started with the latter (viz., looking at
the metaphor later on in the passage), to then read the question at
the beginning in these terms."

This is a very specific claim, reflected in the writ of the text.

I would summarize the sutta in four parts:
   (i) the interlocutor's thesis (or "the question" posed)
   (ii) the direct reply of the monk
   (iii) the metaphor (alluded to, too briefly, above) that serves to
introduce the following
   (iv) the monk's sermon.

The "sermon" (naturally enough) proceeds with the same logic/structure
as the metaphor that introduces it, but it is NOT a direct answer to
the question --that has come and gone in section (ii).

The sermon contains various interesting doctrinal material, and the
monk seems to think it is important to explain to the interlocutor
that the Buddha does taste food, and does see forms, etc., but does
not feel any passion for them (likewise for doctrines); this is
SALIENT material, but it does not follow the logical form of the
thesis (i) --indeed, it is not posed as an answer to the question.

As stated,
   1. In the question (i) there is no dysjunction, viz., no particle to
imply "either/or"
   2. In the answer (ii) there is no dysjunction, and there is only a
single "na" in the second half of the pattern phrase; thus, there are
two grounds for deeming this could not be a "neither/nor" statement.

What I did not state clearly enough (but adumbrated):
   3. In the metaphor that serves to introduce the sermon (iii) we do,
for the first time, have the appearance of the dysjunction "vaa".

(Thus, as I said, the translators may have been reading this metaphor
(iii) and then mis-interpreting the interlocutor's thesis (i) in its
terms.)

   4. The monk goes on to give a sermon that is introduced by the
metaphor; here, we find the use of both the dysjunction "vaa" and also
some double "na" constructions (na... na...).  In this part of the
text, "neither/nor" appears; but it is neither part of the logic of
the interlocutor's "question", nor part of the direct answer to it.

The change in structure and meaning comes (obviously enough) when the
monk speaking switches from answering Ko.t.thita's point (in precisely
Ko.t.thita's terms, with precisely Ko.t.thita's logical structure) to
instead making a point of his own: beginning with the metaphor of the
two oxen.

I did not mean to sound overly harsh or critical of the other
translators; thus, perhaps I was too brief in stating precisely what I
thought their error was (in my opinion).

To my eyes, the text does not support the presumption that the
material in the monk's sermon (iv) is somehow tacitly stated in the
interlocutor's thesis (i) --be it as tacit logical structure or stated
content-- but this is a natural enough mistake to make, in trying to
make sense of a repetitious text, to assign ONE sense, to apply to all
variations.

However, I think the variations are themselves of "binding"
significance (e.g., one "na" or two!).

E.M. 

#2440
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:18 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]
  
    Dear Eisel,

I'm puzzled by your reference to the sutta as SN 1:18:5 which suggests a
location in Vol. 1 of  the Sa,myuttanikaaya or maybe in the
Devataasa.myutta. Perhaps the sutta you're referring to is the one found at
S IV 162-5?

>   / mano dhammaana.m sa~n~nojana.m | dhammaa manassa sa~n~nojananti || /

I don't agree with the translation of "doctrines" in your essay for
"dhammaana.m" and "dhammaa" in this context. I think it should be
something like "mental objects" as in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta or the
Abhidhammapi.taka.

I can't say much on your essay concerning the sutta. I would have to first
familiarize myself with the sutta by reading it in Pali and consulting its
commentaries. I'm currently reading through E,G. Kahrs' study of Sd 551(on
the kammakaaraka) in JPTS XVII 42-58.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2441
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:50 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]
  
    J.A.,

> I'm puzzled by your reference to the sutta as SN 1:18:5

The S.N. is the worst part of the canon for numeric references; this
was the section number as stated in the BJT digital edition (as in the
.PDF of the SN available on my website for download, generated from
the data created by Mettavihari's project in Sri Lanka) --and yes,
there ARE multiple suttas with the same title in the S.N.

> I don't agree with the translation of "doctrines" in your essay for
> "dhammaana.m" and "dhammaa" in this context. I think it should be
> something like "mental objects"...

This is amply dealt with in my comment:
"Philosophically, Sariputta is confronted with the argument (not a
question) that doctrines are to the mind much as objects are to the
senses..."

That is, however, a stated argument --not a meaning inherent to the term.

E.M. 

#2442
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:08 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]
l  
    Eisel,

The PTS reference of S IV 162-5 is most likely the sutta in question. It is
the fifth sutta in the third vagga of the fourth 50 in the
Saa,laayatanasa.myutta (#35) in the fourth volume. This position could also
be indicated by SN 35:18:5 or 35:4:3:5. The PTS text has the sutta
numbered as 191.

I have been taking a look at this sutta.

Best wishes,
Jim

> J.A.,
>
> > I'm puzzled by your reference to the sutta as SN 1:18:5
>
> The S.N. is the worst part of the canon for numeric references; this
> was the section number as stated in the BJT digital edition (as in the
> .PDF of the SN available on my website for download, generated from
> the data created by Mettavihari's project in Sri Lanka) --and yes,
> there ARE multiple suttas with the same title in the S.N.
> 

#2443
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:26 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Turning now to the metaphor of the two oxen (that I've dubbed sec. iii
of the sutta), as I've already paused for dramatic tension, readers
may be expecting the use of the dysjunctive there (alluded to) to
vindicate the earlier translations of T. & W.

No, quite the opposite: we find again that the philosophical content
of the passage has been utterly obscured in translation (despite the
fact that it is written in plain language).

The passage poses a contrast between regular, spoken language (viz.,
as ordinary people might describe something), and the more particular
point that the monk (Saariputta) wishes to make.

_Ad sensum_: "If there were two oxen tied up, anyone might say 'the
black one is tied up with the white one, [COMMA] the white one is tied
up with the black one."

That this is the language of a casual remark or observation is
redundantly clear (/…sammaa nu kho so vadamaano vadeyyaati…/), and it
is even said to be "correct" as such.  However, the monk then
emphatically says, "it is not so, my friend…"; to be precise, it is on
account of "one bond, either a rope-around-the-head or a yoke," that
they may be said to be "bound".

One ox is not the fetter of the other, though in causal speech we
might refer to them as if this were the case (e.g., "Where is the
white ox?", "Tied up with the black ox").

In contrast to the translations of T. & W., there is no need for a
"hard dative" reading of the paired words stated with the ending
/-ssa/; in form, content, and context, it seems clear that this is the
genitive of accompaniment, or, if either word were dative, it would
have to be a very soft and abstract use of the dative (e.g., one ox
being tied up already, the other is then yoked?  Even this seems
needlessly obtuse for such a clearly worded text).

There is, in fact, no "either/or" construction (no dysjunctive
particle) separating one ox from the other; the text simply does not
suggest the issue of the "direction" of the relation of binding
between one ox and the other (viz., nor the direction of eye to
seen-object, vs. object to eye), instead, this is the monk setting up
his sermon to follow by clarifying that there is a "third term"
omitted in the logic of the interlocutor's initial thesis (sec. i).
As per people remarking that one ox is tied up with another, he is not
attacking this as false, but saying that it can be misleading to think
in these terms (though they are common, and even "correct", /sammaa/).

The relationship between the two statements (1) white ox tied up with
black, & (2) black ox tied up with white, is, very simply "and/or"
(NOT "either/or").  The two ways of phrasing it are equivalent; they
are not counterposed as opposites, with some definitive difference of
"direction" between the two; neither the question nor the answer
concerns which one binds the other.

The actual appearance of the "either/or" in this section is simply
specifying that the bond is EITHER a rope around the oxens' heads, OR,
just as easily, it might be a yoke [over their shoulders].

Whereas I remarked earlier that the "directional" interpretation makes
sense for eye-and-object, it makes little or no sense for the main
point the interlocutor is raising: mind and doctrine.  Here, too, I
must point out that reading what the sutta actually says, is much more
cogent and coherent: the image of mind and doctrine as two bulls in
the harness, pulling in the same direction, is simply, "very
Buddhist".

The monk has refuted the putative view of the doctrine as a fetter for
the mind, by depicting the mind and doctrine as instrumentally
related, under the one "yoke" (/yoga/, a loaded word) of desire.

This also works well enough for the eye and its seen objects, but this
is not the main point; it would seem to entail that subjective
consciousness (seeing) stands in an instrumental relationship to
objective form (the seen), and that the two imperfectly (but not
causally) resemble each-other, as much as any two oxen in the harness,
or as little as one black and one white.

This image, thus plainly stated, would have some interesting
implications for (1) A. Pieris, and others sketching the intellectual
history of "materialism and idealism" in Theravada Buddhism, (2)
anyone with a taste for Lockean debates, and (3) anyone who wanted to
cast the thing in Schopenhauer-ian jargon (the relationship of "The
Will" (/mano/) to "The Truth" (/dhamma/) thus bound together by
desire, yet vitiated by desire, etc. etc.).

It seems to me the only alternative to this reading is to foist this
either/or construction onto the text, as the two translators mentioned
have done, and then to insist on (1) a hard-dative reading of what
here look like plainly genitive singular nounds (/-ssa/), and (2) to
insist that the final word /sa~n~nejana.m/ is causative of
/sa~n~nojana.m/ and "therefore" the question must be of one ox causing
the other to be tied up.

The latter is, firstly, manifestly absurd, and is a point that could
be better made with almost any other metaphor than the one offered in
the text; moreover, as explained, the primary purpose of the paragraph
is to compare what people "commonly say" to something the monk wants
to point out specifically: the "one bond" they share is the definitive
condition of their bondage, the fact that they are harnessed together
(and pull the plough together) is not their fetter, _per se_.  Thus,
the causative element here is (as in so many other Pali texts), "on
account of this, we say that": this does not even mean that "the cause
of their bondage is the bond", but only that it is by the one bond
(instrumental) that they are bound, or deemed to be bound, or may
properly be called bound.

E.M. 

#2444
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:53 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Dear All,

In reading the Pali text of the Ko.t.thikasutta (S IV 162ff), I find the
following passage spoken by Saariputta somewhat hard to comprehend:

ya~n ca tattha tad ubhaya.m pa.ticca uppajjati chandaraago ta.m tattha
sa.myojana.m || || (S IV 163 PTS ed.)

The difficulty is what to make of "ya~n ca tattha" and "ta.m tattha".

Here are three translations:

1) "but that desire and lust that arise owing to these two. That is the
bond." (transl. by F.L. Woodward, Kindred Sayings, Part 4, p.101)

2) "Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them:
That is the fetter there." (transl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, from
accesstoinsight.org)

3) ",... but that based on these two desire and lust arise, and they are the
fetter." (transl. by M.O. Walshe, from accesstoinsight.org)

These translations seem somewhat off.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2445
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:31 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    J.A.,

> The difficulty is what to make of "ya~n ca tattha" and "ta.m tattha".

This is a textbook example of a co-relative pairing:

"And whatever there, ...[BLANK]... that there [is the] fetter."

You can fill in the blank as you please.  To render it "wooden for a saw":

"...on both depending, desire-impulse arises..."

E.M. 

#2446
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:37 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Eisel and Jim,

Some thoughts on the sutta at S IV 163ff., variously known as the
Koṭṭhika and the Ko.t.thita Sutta.

The titles may not precede the printed editions or the 19th century
'Council' versions in date; we will not know for certain until there are
proper manuscript studies. In any case, the variation between Koá¹­á¹­hika
and Ko.t.thita is almost certainly because at an earlier date the form
Ko.t.thiya was in use. Without a knowledge of brahminical gotra names,
the form in -ika is natural, but with such Sanskritic knowledge the form
in -ita seems better. Such variations are results of the processes of
partial Sanskritization which created the current orthography of Pali.

A literal translation:
The chandaraaga which arises there in dependence upon both of these is
the fetter there.

Various issues arise:

1. Pa.ticca (pa.ti + icca) probably implies that e.g. eye and visible
object arise prior to chandaraaga and can therefore be easily understood
as able to occur without that. So the intention is to suggest that there
is a more simple sense process which occurs prior to the distortion of
it by chandaraaga. For an arahat at least no such distortion would occur.

2. Chandaraaga is most often explained by the commentaries with chanda
and raaga as weak and strong forms of craving respectively. But it is
understood as a karmadhaaraya compound (chando eva raago). So we could
also understand it as a form of chanda ('wish to do' or 'desire') which
is like passion. I take it that this is most probably the original usage
in Suttanta. For Abhidhamma this would be understood as chanda and raaga
occurring together in the same citta arising.

3. Tattha:     tattha is used and repeated in order to create a sutta
which can be chanted easily. So it can be understood as used instead of
the various terms in the locative. So, in the first case, it is in place
of cakkhusmi.m and ruupesu; in the last, instead of manasmi.m and dhammesu.

4. The meaning of dhammaa:     it is certainly not to be taken for
granted that in the Nikaayas has the sense of 'mental object'. In some
cases it clearly means 'things taught by the Buddha'. (I avoid
'doctrines' as pejorative in English.) In the formula of the four
satipa.t.thaanas it seems to have both these meanings. However, I find
it difficult to interpret it as anything other than mental objects in
the list of the twelve aayatanas as here. Mind has to be taken as
parallel to eye i.e. it is a sense organ for knowing mental objects, not
mentality in general. So dhammaa here means feelings, ideas, emotions,
mental activities and so on.

Lance 

#2447
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:36 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Dear All,

I noticed that so far Ven. Bodhi's translation has not been mentioned at
all so I attach a copy of his translation. It might be of use. More later.
Regards,
Bh Nyanatusita

232 (5) Kotthita
On one occasion the Venerable Sariputta and the Venerable Mahakotthita
were dwelling at Baranasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then, in the
evening, the Venerable Mahakotthita emerged from seclusion and
approached the Venerable Sariputta. He exchanged greetings with the
Venerable Sariputta and, when they had concluded their greetings and
cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to him:
"How is it, friend Sariputta, is the eye the fetter of forms or are
forms the fetter of the eye? Is the ear the fetter of sounds or are
sounds the fetter of the ear?… [163] Is the mind the fetter of mental
phenomena or are mental phenomena the fetter of the mind?"
"Friend Kotthita, the eye is not the fetter of forms nor are forms the
fetter of the eye, but rather the desire and lust that arises there in
dependence on both: that is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter
of sounds nor are sounds the fetter of the ear, but rather the desire
and lust that arises there in dependence on both: that is the fetter
there…. The mind is not the fetter of mental phenomena nor are mental
phenomena the fetter of the mind, but rather the desire and lust that
arises there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there.
"Suppose, friend, a black ox and a white ox were yoked together by a
single rope or yoke. Would one be speaking rightly if one were to say:
'The black ox is the fetter of the white ox; the white ox is the fetter
of the black ox'?"
"No, friend. The black ox is not the fetter of the white ox nor is the
white ox the fetter of the black ox, but rather the single rope or yoke
by which the two are yoked together: that is the fetter there."
"So too, friend, the eye is not the fetter of forms … nor are mental
phenomena the fetter of the mind, but rather the desire and lust that
arises there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there.
"If, friend, the eye was the fetter of forms or if forms were the fetter
of the eye, this living of the holy life could not be discerned for the
complete destruction of suffering. But since the eye is not the fetter
of forms nor are forms the fetter of the eye [164]—but rather the desire
and lust that arises there in dependence on both is the fetter there—the
living of the holy life is discerned for the complete destruction of
suffering.
"If, friend, the ear was the fetter of sounds or if sounds were the
fetter of the ear … If the mind was the fetter of mental phenomena or if
mental phenomena were the fetter of the mind, this living of the holy
life could not be discerned for the complete destruction of suffering.
But since the mind is not the fetter of mental phenomena nor are mental
phenomena the fetter of the mind—but rather the desire and lust that
arises there in dependence on both is the fetter there—the living of the
holy life is discerned for the complete destruction of suffering.
"In this way too, friend, it may be understood how that is so: There
exists in the Blessed One the eye, the Blessed One sees a form with the
eye, yet there is no desire and lust in the Blessed One; the Blessed One
is well liberated in mind. There exists in the Blessed One the ear, the
Blessed One hears a sound with the ear … There exists in the Blessed One
the nose, the Blessed One smells an odour with the nose … There exists
in the Blessed One the tongue, the Blessed One savours a taste with the
tongue … There exists in the Blessed One the body, the Blessed One feels
a tactile object with the body … There exists in the Blessed One the
mind, the Blessed One cognizes [165] a mental phenomenon with the mind,
yet there is no desire and lust in the Blessed One; the Blessed One is
well liberated in mind.
"In this way, friend, it can be understood how the eye is not the fetter
of forms nor forms the fetter of the eye, but rather the desire and lust
that arises there in dependence on both is the fetter there; how the ear
is not the fetter of sounds nor sounds the fetter of the ear…; how the
mind is not the fetter of mental phenomena nor mental phenomena the
fetter of the mind, but rather the desire and lust that arises there in
dependence on both is the fetter there."


Jim Anderson wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> In reading the Pali text of the Ko.t.thikasutta (S IV 162ff), I find the
> following passage spoken by Saariputta somewhat hard to comprehend:
>
> ya~n ca tattha tad ubhaya.m pa.ticca uppajjati chandaraago ta.m tattha
> sa.myojana.m || || (S IV 163 PTS ed.)
>
> The difficulty is what to make of "ya~n ca tattha" and "ta.m tattha".
>
> Here are three translations:
>
> 1) "but that desire and lust that arise owing to these two. That is the
> bond." (transl. by F.L. Woodward, Kindred Sayings, Part 4, p.101)
>

#2448
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:12 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    I do not at all see how such a regular feature of the language as the
use of relative pronouns is susceptible to such controversy as this:

> 3. Tattha: tattha is used and repeated in order to create a sutta
> which can be chanted easily. So it can be understood as used instead of
> the various terms in the locative. So, in the first case, it is in place
> of cakkhusmi.m and ruupesu; in the last, instead of manasmi.m and dhammesu.

Or, we could read what the text actually says.

The indefinite sense of /tattha/ with the relative pronoun is
certainly not accidental, nor is the (common) structure of the
relative pronoun serving to introduce a conclusive clause with a
definite pronoun.

None of this would have the same meaning as a single noun in the
locative --something the author was capable of writing, or chanting,
if so desired.

E.M. 

#2449
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:43 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Needless to say, I disagree with Bodhi's treatment of the first two
sections (i & ii) --and they appear to be 100% derivative of other
translations, not to be based on an independent reading of the text.
Thus, in this instance, a challenge to one translator is a challenge
to all 3.

He seems to have innovated here:

> "Suppose, friend, a black ox and a white ox were yoked together by a
> single rope or yoke. Would one be speaking rightly if one were to say... ?

This is evidently based on the interpretation of /nu kho/ as an
interrogative (in the absence of any true interrogative particle in
the sentence, viz., there is no /ki.m/ to be found, as in /kinnu/,
etc.).

If you can combine two affirmative particles to produce an
interrogative, we're all in trouble.

E.M. 

#2450
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:53 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta] 

    Eisel Mazard wrote:
> I do not at all see how such a regular feature of the language as the
> use of relative pronouns is susceptible to such controversy as this:
>
>
Well, neither do I. But I do not think there is any issue concerning the
use of relative pronouns. My interpretation of that seems to be the same
as yours.
>> 3. Tattha: tattha is used and repeated in order to create a sutta
>> which can be chanted easily. So it can be understood as used instead of
>> the various terms in the locative. So, in the first case, it is in place
>> of cakkhusmi.m and ruupesu; in the last, instead of manasmi.m and dhammesu.
>>
>
> Or, we could read what the text actually says.
>
> The indefinite sense of /tattha/ with the relative pronoun is
> certainly not accidental,
I cannot understand what you mean by this.
>  nor is the (common) structure of the
> relative pronoun serving to introduce a conclusive clause with a
> definite pronoun.
>
Not at issue.
> None of this would have the same meaning as a single noun in the
> locative --something the author was capable of writing, or chanting,
> if so desired.
>
> E.M
The point is that the use of tattha enables the use of the refrain:
yañ ca tattha tadubhaya.m pa.ticca uppajjati chandaraago ta.m tattha
sa.myojana.m.

This occurs thirty times in the Sutta, making it much easier to memorize
and chant. Otherwise, there would be six different variations of
different sizes and the rhythm would be lost. I think this would be
clear to anyone who has done much Pali chanting.

Lance 

#2451
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:33 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    As L.C. can "get away with" Unicode, I shall here attempt to do the same.

The only variations in the pattern I here render in block capitals:

(i)
saññojanaŋ, kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ
(ii)
saññojanaŋ, kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
NA phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ
(iii)
[Metaphor of the oxen, already discussed]
(iv)
NA saññojanaŋ, kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
NA phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ

I think it should be self-evident that we cannot, in good conscience,
translate the "single-NA" form (ii) as identical with the "double-NA"
form (found in the first paragraph of sec. iv, viz., following
directly after the metaphor).

1. There is certainly no basis to read the form stated in (iv) as if
it were tacit in the prior sections.  There is very good reason, in
terms of the content, to regard the monk's argument (in later
paragraphs of iv) as quite different from the question posed to him,
already discussed; he first answers the question, then goes on to make
his own point.
2. While it might be normal English grammar to translate "not...
not..." as neither/nor, there is no basis for the inference of an
"either/or" in the prior sections on the basis of these two negatives
in (iv); the fact that they first appear in (iv) seems to have been
ignored.
3. In addition to the glaring absence of a supposed dysjunction, there
is also the glaring absence of any question-word (interrogative
particle or otherwise), viz., nothing like "ki.m" as the translations
suppose.  Both the "either/or" construction, posing the two halves of
the phrase in mutual-opposition, and also the question form imputed by
the other translators, is their fantasy, not found in the text.
4. If we were to take the other translations seriously, in their
absurd rending of the two halves of the phrase as "opposite",
shouldn't we then regard (ii) as affirming the first proposition, but
denying the second?  It is a clear mis-representation of the text for
(ii) and (iv) to be given identical translations.

This all ought to be rather obvious (apparently it isn't); I would
prefer to discuss the relationship between what the text actually
says, and its philosophical content, rather than the relationship
between what it DOESN'T say, and its flawed translations.

E.M. 

#2452
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:18 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Dear Lance,

Thanks for for sharing some of your thoughts on this sutta. The points made
are much appreciated and worthy of consideration.

Here are some of my thoughts about the Pali passage and your translation:

> A literal translation:
> The chandaraaga which arises there in dependence upon both of these is
> the fetter there.

I'm not sure if you have translated "ya.m" although I see a "which" but
"ya.m" does not agree with "chandaraago" in gender and case. I'm still
mulling over the intended meaning of the Pali passage in question and still
far from a satisfactory understanding of the syntax. I have been
thinking of the possibility of "ya.m" being used adverbially and as a
correlative of "ta.m". Abh 1145ab has: ya.m ta.m yato tato yena | teneti
kaara.ne siyu.m ||. Warder, 291f. also has something to say about the use of
the particle "ya.m". On the other hand, if "ya.m" is construed as a relative
pronoun, then I think it would have to agree with tadubhaya.m in gender and
case, i.e., neuter and accusative. If the "ta.m" in the concluding part is
the correlative of a pronominal "ya.m" then this would rule out
"chandaraago" being the fetter.

The a.t.thakathaa and its .tiikaa have very little to say about the sutta.
Only "tadubhaya.m" is commented upon which I reproduce here:

Pañcame tadubhayanti ta.m ubhaya.m. --- Spk III 4
Ta.m ubhayanti ta.m cakkhuruupanti ubhayampi aayatana.m.  --- Spk-p.t 2.322
(Be)

There are some problems with "tattha" in the sense of "there" which I would
rather not go into just now.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2453
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:39 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    L.C.,

> Well, neither do I. But I do not think there is any issue concerning the
> use of relative pronouns. My interpretation of that seems to be the same
> as yours.

If we agree, we agree.

I had thought your comments were intended to pose a new
interpretation, involving the locative, in relation to the "direction"
of the binding.  Evidently, you just intended this comment to clarify
for someone who actually doesn't understand the text, at a very
rudimentary level.

The closest cognate to the Pali prefix /Sa.m/ is English /Syn/, via Greek.

"Syn-" words indicate a coming together, with no clear direction
(though not true ambitransitivty).

Although "connect" (cf. con- vs. syn-) and "link" would only translate
part of the meaning of the Pali term, the uni-directional transivity
of "fetter" (as a verb) also provides a partial and misleading
translation (so too, "obstruct" or "bind", variously).

It is patently absurd to say that one ox bind the other, or literally
fetters the other; this is neither the question nor the answer.  The
"indefiniteness" of the correlative clause (inasmuch as there...
there...) is consistent with this, where as "from there to there", or
a clear locative, etc., might have another meaning.

The monk remarks that people say in "correct speech" that one ox is
"tied up with" the other; the phrasing is supposedly similar to what
he goes on to say the body being tied up with sensations.  The body
does not "fetter" sensations, nor vice-versa --nor is there any
question of it.  The direction of the relationship between the two is
not what is questioned by the interlocutor, nor what is addressed in
reply.

In translation, it seems that whoever made this mistake first was hung
up on the supposed directional transivity of the verb: but the body
does not refrain nor obstruct nor bind sensation.  By first reading
"ox 1 binds ox 2" as if it were clearly transitive, and then foisting
an indirect object meaning (dative) onto a pair of genitive nouns
indicating accompaniment, and then making all the other errors I've
noted, the texts descends from sense into nonsense -- of a very
philosophical kind.

E.M. 

#2454
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:08 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta] 

    J.A.,

> I'm not sure if you have translated "ya.m" ...
> I have been
> thinking of the possibility of "ya.m" being used adverbially and as a
> correlative of "ta.m".

I already stated my astonishment at L.C.'s suggestion that this is
anything other than a correlative pairing --and he replies saying that
he agrees with me that it is, and that he did not mean to suggest
otherwise.

In any case, it seems that you (J.A.), also, in reading his former
posting, thought that L.C. was choosing not to read this as a
correlative pair (or to argue against such a reading) --so, perhaps, I
was not wildly hallucinating at the time.

> If the "ta.m" in the concluding part is
> the correlative of a pronominal "ya.m" then this would rule out
> "chandaraago" being the fetter.

Correct.

E.M. 

#2455
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:51 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Jim Anderson wrote:
> Here are some of my thoughts about the Pali passage and your translation:
>
>
>> A literal translation:
>> The chandaraaga which arises there in dependence upon both of these is
>> the fetter there.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if you have translated "ya.m" although I see a "which" but
> "ya.m" does not agree with "chandaraago" in gender and case.

Yes, you are right about that. So I will modify my 'literal' translation:

But that <fetter> which arises there in dependence upon both of these as
chandarāga is the fetter there.


This takes yañ ca as referring back to the previous word saṃyojanaṃ. So
yañ is nominative neuter as is its correlative taṃ. I take the case of
tad-ubhayaṃ as governed by paṭicca. Chandarāgo is in apposition to the
subject of the relative clause i.e. yañ.

I translate tattha as 'there' as a convenience in English. The actual
meaning is (for the first occurrence):

But that <fetter> which arises as chandarāga in relation to the eye and visual
objects in dependence upon both of these is
the fetter in the eye and visual objects.


But I take it that what is meant is that chandarāga is not just a form
of attachment to sight and visual objects but also attachment to the
product of their combination.


on Unicode:

Eisel's eagle eye spotted that I inadvertently forgot to change one word
of what I had typed from so-called Unicode to the encoding which I use
for email to this group. Since his posting came through to me
reasonably,  like him I wonder if we cannot use Unicode for diacritics
now. For the Mac at least, the standard fonts such as Times now have all
the diacritic letters needed for Pali and the same must be true for
Windows. I suspect that will now be more convenient for most of us.

Lance 

#2456
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:07 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Nyanatusita wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I noticed that so far Ven. Bodhi's translation has not been mentioned at
> all so I attach a copy of his translation. It might be of use. More later.
> Regards,
> Bh Nyanatusita
>

Thanks for this. I don't have that; so it was interesting to see.

I do have one definite disagreement here.

> "How is it, friend Sariputta, is the eye the fetter of forms or are
> forms the fetter of the eye? Is the ear the fetter of sounds or are
> sounds the fetter of the ear?� [163] Is the mind the fetter of mental
> phenomena or are mental phenomena the fetter of the mind?"
>

I do not believe that mental phenomena is a possible translation of
dhammā in this context. We would not normally consider 'a doctrine' to
be a 'mental phenomenon'. So whereas for me 'mental objects' include
'doctrines', this would seem to exclude them. That must be wrong.

To take this a little further, in Abhidhamma and in the commentaries,
the dhammāyatana includes materiality as well as every kind of mentality
(cittacetasika), nibbāna and concepts. This goes farther than any normal
understanding of 'mental phenomena'.

I rather doubt that Bhikkhu Bodhi intends to imply that the meaning here
is different in Suttanta. But just in case he does, I would feel that
for Suttanta texts, or at least most of them, dhammā in the context of
this list is intended to cover any object of the mind apart from the
objects of the five senses (and possibly even those in the case of
dreams, etc.). So this rendering is too limiting and misleading.

Lance 

#2457
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:47 am 
Subject: S IV 163

    Dear friends,

The syntax of S IV 163 puzzles me. sam.yojana (n.) is constructed with nouns
in the genitive and chandaraaga (m.) with nouns in the locative. Now the
phrase ya.n ca tattha tad ubhayam pat.icca uppajjati continues chandaraago
etc. It is very unusual to find a noun after a finite verb in the Pali
canon. I would suggest adding a comma after uppajjati. The next problem is
tattha. I think it is used as a substitute for a demonstrative pronoun
referring to cakkhu and ruupaa, in which case it would stand for a gen.
plural, which is somewhat unusual: and (the fetter) of these arise in
dependence on both (cakkhu and ruupaa). Then follows the definition of the
fetter: chandaraaga that is the fetter of these. One may compare S III 166:
yo tattha (scil. ruupa) chandaraago ta.m tattha sa.n.nojana.m where tattha
stands for the locative and with sa.n.nojana.m presumably the genitive.

tad in the phrase tad ubhayam is often described as a "historical" form i.e.
Sanskritic. I am exceedingly skeptical. One sometimes comes across phrases
like ya.m yad eva of which ya.m as well as yad are either m. acc. or fem.
acc. Yad is evidently ya.m with elided .m and a dental on-glide was inserted
in its place before the midvowel /e/. I would explain tad ubhayam in the
same way: The reading must be motivated by actual usage, cf., for instance
the remarkable reading d-ubhato at Ja VI.218 or Pa.tis I 69 (many examples):
evidently a dental on-glide motivated by the phonetic context and rythmical
features of spoken Pali: ta.m ubhayam is long short, short, long. The
recorded tad ubhaya.m is short, short, short, long, cf. tad avoca
short,short, long, short.

Regards,
Ole

#2458
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:51 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Eisel,


I in fact agree with the general philosophical drift of what you are
saying. It is some of the details of how you get there that I have a
problem with.

> For the first half of the phrase pattern, I would propose something
> along the lines of:
>   "[For] the eye bound with forms, forms [are] the eye's fetter."
> Or more verbosely,
>   "[Concerning] the eye fettered with forms, [isn't it the case that
> these very] forms [are what we mean to say are] the eye's fetter[?]"
>

I cannot understand how you are construing kin nu . . . cakkhu rūpānaṃ
saṃyojanaṃ . . .

It is not possible for saṃyojanaṃ to agree with cakkhu, since it doesn't
agree with jivhā below. So it must function as a noun as elsewhere, not
as any (other) kind of verbal form.

> If the relation of the first part to the second is not the comparison
> of two mutually exclusive opposites, but, simply, the second part is
> more precise than the first, then we need not impute "either/or".  In
> reading the answer, too, this relieves us of trying to construe a
> "neither/nor".  There is only a single negating particle, in the
> second part of the phrase-pattern, e.g.:
>
>   / mano dhammaana.m sa~n~nojana.m | na dhammaa manassa sa~n~nojana.mi || /
>

I read two occurrences of na.


The issue  as regards occurrences of vaa is rather a good example of why
we are still dependent on the PTS edition for serious work. Only that
gives usable references to Mss.

Notes 5 and 6 of the PTS edition on p. 163 reveal that its Sinhalese Mss
read:

Cakkhu cāvuso rūpānaṃ saṃyojanam abhavissa || rūpā cakkhussa
saṃyojanaṃ
abhavissa

So the two occurrences of vā here derive from the Burmese. Feer had in
fact only two Burmese Mss for this section. One at least must have
derived directly from the Burmese 5th Council version. The second
(Paris) Ms may also have done so. (I am not sure offhand of its date.)

What this suggests to me is that there were in fact two versions of this
Sutta in the Ms tradition. Version A omitted vā in this context all the
way through. That is evidenced by the Sinhalese Mss. Version B included
vā all the way through i.e. after rūpā etc. What we now have in the
printed editions is a compromise between the two with the vā included
only in the conditional clause.


Lastly, both you and Jim seem to think that tattha after yaṃ would make
it indefinite. I am not familiar with this usage. Glancing at
dictionaries and modern grammars, I do not seem to find it. Can you
justify it, please ?


LSC 

#2459
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:45 pm 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> The syntax of S IV 163 puzzles me. sam.yojana (n.) is constructed with nouns
> in the genitive and chandaraaga (m.) with nouns in the locative.
Chandarāga is certainly constructed with nouns in the locative, but do
you have evidence from the Nikāyas (apart from this sutta) that
saṃyojana is constructed with nouns in the genitive ?

> Now the
> phrase ya.n ca tattha tad ubhayam pat.icca uppajjati continues chandaraago
> etc. It is very unusual to find a noun after a finite verb in the Pali
> canon.

That's true, but I understand that when it does occur, it is for
emphasis. How about D II 302:

Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu cakkhuñ ca pajānāti, rūpe ca pajānāti, yañ ca tad
ubhayaṃ paṭicca uppajjati saṃyojanaṃ tañ ca pajānāti, yathā ca
anuppannassa saṃyojanassa uppādo hoti tañ ca pajānāti, yathā ca
uppannassa saṃyojanassa pahānaṃ hoti tañ ca pajānāti, yathā ca pahīnassa
saṃyojanassa āyatiṃ anuppādo hoti tañ ca pajānāti

Here saṃyojanaṃ is also after uppajjati. So how would you construe this ?


LSC 

#2460
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:57 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]
  
    Dear Lance,

> But that <fetter> which arises there in dependence upon both of these as
chandarāga is the fetter there.
>
>
> This takes yañ ca as referring back to the previous word saṃyojanaṃ. So
> yañ is nominative neuter as is its correlative taṃ. I take the case of
> tad-ubhayaṃ as governed by paṭicca. Chandarāgo is in apposition to the
> subject of the relative clause i.e. yañ.

I agree with you that ya~n is nominative neuter but not as referring
back to the previous word. It seems to me that the relative clause is part
of Saariputta's definition of sa.myojana.m (the latter word coming at the
end) making it unnecessary to construe ya~n ca as ya.m sa.myojana~n ca. In
your response to Ole, you quoted a paragraph from D II 302 which I had also
looked up earlier in the day. I thought the line: "yañ ca tad ubhayaṃ
paṭicca uppajjati saṃyojanaṃ tañ ca pajānāti," helpful to my understanding
of the ya~n ca tattha passage in question as they share some similarities.
The main difficulty now for me lies with the two tattha-s and chandaraago.
I'm inclined to agree with you that the latter is in apposition to ya~n and
Ole's suggestion of a comma after uppajjati makes sense. For tattha I will
give some thought to the remarks you and Ole have made so far. Saariputta's
definition of sa.myojana.m is very different from that found in As.

> on Unicode:
>
> Eisel's eagle eye spotted that I inadvertently forgot to change one word
> of what I had typed from so-called Unicode to the encoding which I use
> for email to this group. Since his posting came through to me
> reasonably,  like him I wonder if we cannot use Unicode for diacritics
> now. For the Mac at least, the standard fonts such as Times now have all
> the diacritic letters needed for Pali and the same must be true for
> Windows. I suspect that will now be more convenient for most of us.

The subject of the use of Unicode in the group emails has come up a few
times before. My position has been to allow its use but sparingly and to
stick with Velthuis as much as possible. The special characters for Pali do
display correctly in the messages I'm receiving, so I don't see any big
problem with you and others posting messages in Unicode unless we start
getting complaints. If other members find it problematic please let me know.
I would advise against the use of the special characters in the subject
line.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2461
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:32 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    In reply to L.C.:

My contribution to this discussion has been extensive (and initiated
it); I think it is VERY clear, in my earlier postings, where I am
attempting strict translation (or word-specific discussion of the
text) and where instead I state clearly that I am NOT following the
text closely, but remarking upon, or expanding upon it, in line with
my reflections on the philosophical content.

This includes, even more obviously, the use of square-bracket
parenthesis, to show where I am adding to the text.

Given this fact, and given that I often give multiple translations and
comments on the same passage(s) (nearly repeating and overlapping one
another), I AM NOT going to defend "[isn't it the case that...]"
appearing in square brackets, by way of a "more verbose" explanation
(stated as such) for a passage already so much discussed.

That being said: by all means proceed to make your own point as to
precisely what the passage says, and render my earlier comments
obsolete with better ones.  Such is the progress of science.

I raised this sutta for discussion, based on my own reading, and my
noticing the dire inadequacy of the translations: I am not handing
down tablets from the top of the mountain, I am not even issuing fixed
opinions or conclusions.

L.C. raises a VERY important point, perhaps too briefly, in relation
to the absence or presence of /vaa/.

Do the footnotes you allude to establish it as a fact that the Sri
Lankan version of the text omits /vaa/ "all the way through" as you
say (viz., sec. i through sec. iv)?

As per everything I've been saying, this would fundamentally change
the meaning of the text, viz., the presence or absence of /vaa/, and
the question of where there is no /na/, only one /na/, or two /na/
paired.

This very much changes "the moral of the story" from the incompetence
of translators, to the incompetence of modern redactors; evidently the
"compromise" of the text you allude to was carried out with no regard
to the content.  Any "compromise" between the two versions (if they
are two versions, as you say) would transform the meaning of the text.

E.M. 

#2462
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:55 am 
Subject: Pali composition 

    Hello,

Does anyone know whether any new Pali books have been written during the
last fifty years?
As far as I know the last works in Pali were composed in Burma in the
1950s, i.e. the Visuddhi~naa.nakathaa (Burma, Mahaasi Sayaadaw, 1950)
and the Visuddhimagga-nidaanakathaa (Burma,
Cha.t.tha-sa"ngiiti-bhaara-nitthaaraka-sa"ngha-samitiya, 1950s.). In Sri
Lanka the last work was probably composed in 1935: the
Mahaanekkhamma-campu by Widurupola Piyatissa. The fake Vimuttimagga was
probably composed after that but I am not sure if this can qualify as an
official Pali work.
If it is a fact that no new Pali compositions were written during the
last fifty years, then this indicates that Pali is now a real dead
language. It could be that some works have been written in Burma though.
Regards,
              Bhikkhu Nyanatusita 

#2463
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:06 am 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    This is a good question, and others should contribute, however:

It is alleged and presumed [passive voice] that there are new
masterpieces of Pali composition produced in Thailand for every
funeral in the Royal family, and on numerous other official occasions.

These are read aloud to what are alleged and presumed to be
appreciative audiences.

There is also a largely unexamined literature of official
correspondence in Pali.

I believe I sent to this list some mention of the evidence I happened
upon in relation to the revival of Pali as such a medium in "Ariya"
glyphs, as patronized by Thailand's Rama IV.

The Ariya writing system is certainly quite quick for pen-and-quill
hand-writing, in contrast to classical scripts.

I have never read any scholarly analysis or appraisal of the quality
or content of any of these sources: neither the funeral dirges nor the
official letters.

Filliozat wrote an analysis and transcription of one royal letter from
Thailand to Sri Lanka; you may wish to forward your question to her,
along with this reply of mine?

There are actually two "new" compositions of the 1930s, including the
one you mention, in the article I already "compressed" and quoted to
the list:
[Quote:]
The Rev. Widurapola Piyatissa wrote Mahakassapahcarita (1934) and
Mahanekkhamma Campu (1935),
[End quote.]

I will also note that I receall one very non-scholarly work of
original Pali metrical/poetic composition, basically gathering
together anecdotes from fables on the life of the Buddha, of quite
recent composition in Sri Lanka; I forget the name, but I think this
is rarely mentioned as it is not taken seriously.  It is almost purely
about the Buddha's childhood antics and fabled death, with little of
substance in-between (*SIGH*) --as with the focus of many of the
folk-biographies and dramas, dependent upon the Sanskrit tradition,
ultimately.

As I mentioned years ago (to this list): my criterion for a living
language is that husbands and wives still use it as a medium for
disputes and arguments.  Thus, Hebrew is a living language while Pali
is not; Aramaic is a living language, but Latin is not (though they
now have a Latin radio news-service, a Wikipedia, etc.).

E.M. 

#2464
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:47 am 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    A new Pali chronicle was composed by the present Sangharaja of Thailand. I think
he wrote it in the early 1980s. I have an edition of this if anyone wants more
details.
Thank you,
justin
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
3046 INTN
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
951-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:25:31 +0530
>From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Pali composition
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>   Hello,
>
>   Does anyone know whether any new Pali books have
>   been written during the
>   last fifty years?

#2465
From: "Soe Naung" <ashinpan@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:10 pm 
Subject: Recent Pali compositions in Burma

    Dear Ven. Nyanatusita

You wrote:

>   If it is a fact that no new Pali compositions were written during the
> last fifty years, then this indicates that Pali is now a real dead
> language.
>

If we adopt that logic, I can say that Pali is not yet dead in Burma.

About 3 or 4 years ago, a Pali translation of "Vipassanaa.Shu.Ney.Kyan"
(meaning "How to Practise Vipassanaa", the masterpiece in Burmese of Mahasi
Sayadaw) has been published. (I am sorry I cannot give the Pali title; it
was published when I was already abroad) The translator is Ven.
Kumaaraabhiva.msa, the former Dean of Pariyatti Faculty at the International
Therevada Buddhist Missionary University (ITBMU), Rangoon. The original
Burmese work is, understandably, not much known outside Burma. But I think
it is the most important work of Mahasi Sayadaw since it is in this work
that he offers  the whole doctrinal basis of Mahasi meditation method, in an
attempt to show that that method is in accord with the Buddha's teaching.

The same translator also wrote and published another Pali work entitled
"Therii-Apaadaana-Diipanii", which is in fact a commentary on Therii
Apaadaana. I cannot give the accurate date of its publication, but I am
certain it was published after 1988, the time of the military takeover in
Burma.

And Ven. Nandamaalaabhiva.msa, the present Rector of ITBMU, is writing a new
commentary on Dhammapada verses (without stories). But I don't know whether
he has finished it or not.

And a word for Eisel:

You wrote:

<As I mentioned years ago (to this list): my criterion for a living language
is that husbands and wives still <use it as a medium for disputes and
arguments. Thus, Hebrew is a living language while Pali
<is not; Aramaic is a living language, but Latin is not (though they now
have a Latin radio news-service, a <Wikipedia, etc.).

According to your logic, Pali was already dead when Venerable Mahinda
brought it to Ceylon. Buddhaghosa and all subsequent Pali authors have been
writing in a dead language.

Actually, I don't want to argue against your definition of "a living
language". I only wish to point out that being dead or alive is not
significant in the case of Pali. The real significance of Pali lies in the
fact that it is the lingua franca of Theravada Buddhism. That status will
not change with time. International languages may come and go but Pali will
not go away as long as Theravada Buddhism exists.

with metta

Ven. Pandita

#2466
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:52 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Eisel,

I'm responding to your first posting on this topic. I spent some time
reading it and find it so horribly flawed and distorted that it should never
have been posted to the group. I would ask that you refrain from posting
such crap in the future.

Best wishes,
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:31 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]


> The Ko.t.thita Sutta is an example of simply-worded Pali, used to make
> a philosophical argument that is by no means simplisitic. 

#2467
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:48 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    I quote myself, from that same message:

"That is very much a loose paraphrase, stated with the the utmost
brevity, but it brings us rapidly to the point..."

Jim, this is not the first time you've sent insulting messages to me:
to prevent your being "offended", I had written to you separately,
off-list, with a letter of encouragement, stating that I was looking
forward to others pointing out my errors, that I would be eager to see
that I was wrong, etc., to show you (directly) that I was opening this
as a discussion for all, with an open mind --and, indeed, several
other people have now taken up a more detailed study of the syntax of
the text (their attention drawn to it by my "loose paraphrase", etc.).

When I wrote the first two messages to the list, I did not actually
have very much time, but I was excited with what I had noticed in the
text, and I've managed to pass on some of that excitement to others,
it seems.

If this is not the sort of "crap" that you want on the list, all I can say is,

"Best wishes",
E.M.

On 8/30/08, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eisel,
>
> I'm responding to your first posting on this topic. I spent some time
> reading it and find it so horribly flawed and distorted that it should never
> have been posted to the group. I would ask that you refrain from posting
> such crap in the future.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
> To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 2:31 AM
> Subject: [palistudy] Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]
>
>
>> The Ko.t.thita Sutta is an example of simply-worded Pali, used to make
>> a philosophical argument that is by no means simplisitic.
>

#2468
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:57 pm 
Subject: Re: Recent Pali compositions in Burma

    Dear Venerable Pandita,

Thanks for the information. It would be good if you would be able to
find out the Pali name of Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's work so that I can add
it to the List of Pali literature I am working on. (See
http://www.bps.lk/other_library/reference_table_of_pali_literature.pdf).
Doesn't Kyan mean Diipanii? Could it perhaps be
Vipassanaa-bhaavanaa-diipanii?

Kind regards,
                      Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

Soe Naung wrote:
>
> Dear Ven. Nyanatusita
>
> You wrote:
>
> > If it is a fact that no new Pali compositions were written during the
> > last fifty years, then this indicates that Pali is now a real dead
> > language.
> >
>
> If we adopt that logic, I can say that Pali is not yet dead in Burma.

#2469
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:58 pm 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    Dear Justin,

Thanks for the reply. Please send me the details (author, name of work,
and year of publication) so that I can include it in my list of Pali
literature (see
http://www.bps.lk/other_library/reference_table_of_pali_literature.pdf).
It will also be put on a German scholarly website soon.

Regards,
             Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

justinm@ucr.edu wrote:
>
> A new Pali chronicle was composed by the present Sangharaja of
> Thailand. I think he wrote it in the early 1980s. I have an edition of
> this if anyone wants more details.
> Thank you,
> justin

#2470
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:59 pm 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    Dear Eisel,

The last kings of Kandy also had panegyric poems, called a.s.takas, read
out at the court. The poems were composed in Sanskritized Pali by monks
such as Saranankara Sangharaja. Judging from the accounts given in The
Pali Literature of Ceylon and The Pali Literature of Burma, it seems
that the ups and downs of Pali literature are closely linked to the ups
and downs of royalty. This might be the reason why so little Pali
writing has taken place in Sri Lanka since the British took over.
That letter which Dr. Filliozat analyzed is probably the one written in
1756 CE. I think that it is the one kept in the Ridi Vihara in
Puppharama/Malwatta. It is a roll, kept in a large silver cylinder.
I was using ''dead language'' in a loose sense. When there still is
literary activity going on in a language, then it is still alive in a
sense. I have never been able to confirm it, but I was once told that
the language of communication at the Mahavihara was Pali. There are
still a few monks in Sri Lanka who can speak in Pali. I am not sure how
fluent though. In our archives there are a few letters in Pali composed
by Mahasi Sayadaw to Nyanaponika Thera in the 1950s.
Thanks for the info on the book of fables. I will try to find out more
about it. Talking about fables: there is an  English translation of the
Kacchapa Jataka (The Turtle Birth Story, Jataka story No. 273) now, done
by anonymous translators. Cowell only translated it into Latin because
of its explicit content. It is quite funny.

Regards,
                Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

Eisel Mazard wrote:
>
> This is a good question, and others should contribute, however:
>
> It is alleged and presumed [passive voice] that there are new
> masterpieces of Pali composition produced in Thailand for every
> funeral in the Royal family, and on numerous other official occasions.
>
#2471
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:13 pm 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    Namaskara Venerable Acariya,

The text is in my office. I will be back there from a family vacation next week.
I can send the information then. I may also have more than one copy. If so,
would you like me to mail one to you?

Respectfully,
justin

______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
3046 INTN
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
951-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu


---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 08:28:31 +0530
>From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Pali composition
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>   Dear Justin,
>
>   Thanks for the reply. Please send me the details
>   (author, name of work,
>   and year of publication) so that I can include it in
>   my list of Pali
>   literature (see
>   http://www.bps.lk/other_library/reference_table_of_pali_literature.pdf).
>   It will also be put on a German scholarly website
>   soon.
>
>   Regards,
>   Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

#2472
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:16 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    L.C. wrote:

"Lastly, both you and Jim seem to think that tattha after yaṃ would make
it indefinite. I am not familiar with this usage."

Jim may speak for himself, but what I was trying (perhaps failing) to alluded to
was merely [quote], "The 'indefiniteness' of the correlative clause (inasmuch as
there...there...) " --as I said.

I am doubtless guilty of using the word indefinite too indefinitely.

L.C., a message you posted a few chapters later offered a "modified, literal
translation" as follows:

"But that <fetter> which arises there in dependence upon both of these as
chandarāga is
the fetter there."

This is the only "indefiniteness" I was alluding to: the author is not giving us
a specific noun in the locative, but construes it this reciprocal, somewhat
elliptical way: "[inasmuch as] that there... [so too] this here".

Instead of "that which there", I think one could translate it with "whatsoever
there", etc., but there are numerous possibilities (none of which require
inserting a missing noun in the locative, in my opinion, and I was evidently
mistaken in reading your earlier comment as indicating that this was what you
meant to do, as later discussion has already shown, etc.).

E.M. 

#2473
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:20 pm 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    L.C.,

As the actual writ of the text is now in question, I would draw your
attention back to your comment of Aug. 27th:

"I read two occurrences of na."

Could you confirm this?  As you know, I took some time to make it
clear precisely where I was discussing the fact problem (viz., 1 /na/
vs. 2), and I reproduce the "table" (so to speak) here:

-----
(i)
saññojanaŋ, kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ
(ii)
saññojanaŋ, kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
NA phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ
(iii)
[Metaphor of the oxen, already discussed]
(iv)
NA saññojanaŋ, kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
NA phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ
-----

Thus, under what I've called section (ii), there is only one "na", but
I am not saying this about (iv).

Are you saying that the PTS has two "na" in precisely this part of the
text, viz., section (ii)?

E.M. 

#2474
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:04 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    I am going to ask for a small degree of patience and co-operation from
all in simply establishing WHAT exactly the text is that we're
discussing: L.C. has suggested that there is a crucial inconsistency,
perhaps one that originally existed in a comparison between MS
traditions, but it has now been internalized, and existing as an
inconsistency within the PTS edition, perhaps within all of the
Burmese council derived texts?

I am using the vertical line instead of the comma, and two vertical
lines, similarly, for the double-danda (viz., the end of the
sentence).  I am not inserting any commas where the text lacks them
--merely (as of this moment) to try to establish exactly what the text
is (viz., not controverting O.P's suggestion).  You'll see that I'm
using line-breaks (carriage returns) simply to make the text easier to
read, not reflecting any mark in the source.

In a few places, I use block capitals to draw attention to variations
(such as one /NA/ vs. two).

I'm going to proliferate the roman numerals through to the end of the
sutta.  Here is the pattern as I am reading it:

(i)
Kinnu kho āvuso sāriputta [...]
mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
dhammā manassa saññojananti ||

(ii)
Na kho āvuso koṭṭhita [...]
Mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ ||

(iii)
[...] Na kho āvuso
kāḷo balivaddo odātassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
NAPI odāto balivaddo kāḷassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
yena ca kho te ekena dāmena vā yottena vā saŋyuttā |
taŋ tattha saññejanaŋ ||

(iv)
Evameva kho āvuso [...]
NA mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ ||
Yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati
chandarāgo taŋ tattha saññojanaŋ ||

[NB: the paragraph introducing "brahmacariya" to the conversation is
here passed over without comment or quotation, as it does not have a
phrase in parallel structure, etc., that could serve to elucidate the
matter at hand]

(v)
Mano vā āvuso dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ abhavissa |
dhammā vā manassa saññojanaŋ abhavissa |
na idaŋ brahmacariyavāso paññāyetha sammā dukkhakkhayāya |
yasmā ca kho āvuso na mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ na dhammā manassa
saññojanaŋ |
yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha
saññojanaŋ |
tasmā brahmacariyavāso paññāyati sammādukkhayāya ||

(vi)
Tadamināpetaŋ āvuso pariyāyena veditabbaŋ [...]
NA mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ |
yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha
saññojanaŋ ||

(vii)
Saŋvijjati kho āvuso bhagavato mano |
jānāti bhagavā manasā dhammaŋ |
chandarāgo bhagavato natthi |
suvimuttacitto bhagavā ||

(viii)
NA mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ |
yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha
saññojananti ||

[END]

E.M. 

#2475
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:40 am 
Subject: Re: Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]

    Eisel,

I have identified the source of the problem. You are using the BJT
online version. This fills in the peyyālas of the printed edition. That
was done to facilitate searching, but it may have been a mistake. (One
for which I was partly responsible, I fear.) In this particular case the
peyyāla has been filled in incorrectly. So the na has been omitted in
many cases. I have now checked against the printed edition.

We can be confident that two occurrences of na are intended in each case
and that is so for the BUDSIR and VRI online versions, as in the PTS
edition with slight variations in the handling of the peyyālas.

Lance Cousins


Eisel Mazard wrote:
> L.C.,
>
> As the actual writ of the text is now in question, I would draw your
> attention back to your comment of Aug. 27th:
>
> "I read two occurrences of na."
>
> Could you confirm this?  As you know, I took some time to make it
> clear precisely where I was discussing the fact problem (viz., 1 /na/
> vs. 2), and I reproduce the "table" (so to speak) here:

#2476
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:56 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Eisel,

I have added in square brackets what the PTS reads, ignoring minor
spelling variations and the like.

LSC

Eisel Mazard wrote:
> I am going to ask for a small degree of patience and co-operation from
> all in simply establishing WHAT exactly the text is that we're
> discussing: L.C. has suggested that there is a crucial inconsistency,
> perhaps one that originally existed in a comparison between MS
> traditions, but it has now been internalized, and existing as an
> inconsistency within the PTS edition, perhaps within all of the
> Burmese council derived texts?
>
> I am using the vertical line instead of the comma, and two vertical
> lines, similarly, for the double-danda (viz., the end of the
> sentence).  I am not inserting any commas where the text lacks them
> --merely (as of this moment) to try to establish exactly what the text
> is (viz., not controverting O.P's suggestion).  You'll see that I'm
> using line-breaks (carriage returns) simply to make the text easier to
> read, not reflecting any mark in the source.
>
> In a few places, I use block capitals to draw attention to variations
> (such as one /NA/ vs. two).
>
> I'm going to proliferate the roman numerals through to the end of the
> sutta.  Here is the pattern as I am reading it:
>
> (i)
> Kinnu kho āvuso sāriputta [...]
> mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
> dhammā manassa saññojananti ||
>
[PTS the same]
> (ii)
> Na kho āvuso koṭṭhita [...]
> Mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
>
[PTS: Na mano dhammānaṃ saṃyojanaṃ]
> NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ ||
>
> (iii)
> [...] Na kho āvuso
> kāḷo balivaddo odātassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
> NAPI odāto balivaddo kāḷassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
> yena ca kho te ekena dāmena vā yottena vā saŋyuttā |
>
[PTS omits te]
> taŋ tattha saññejanaŋ ||
>
> (iv)
> Evameva kho āvuso [...]
> NA mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
> NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ ||
> Yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati
> chandarāgo taŋ tattha saññojanaŋ ||
>
[PTS the same]
> [NB: the paragraph introducing "brahmacariya" to the conversation is
> here passed over without comment or quotation, as it does not have a
> phrase in parallel structure, etc., that could serve to elucidate the
> matter at hand]
>
> (v)
> Mano vā āvuso dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ abhavissa |
>
[PTS the same, but earlier in the paragraph, footnotes indicate for
Sinhalese Mss:
cakkhucāvuso and jivhācāvuso
so almost certainly the same was true for Mano]

> dhammā vā manassa saññojanaŋ abhavissa |
> na idaŋ brahmacariyavāso paññāyetha sammā dukkhakkhayāya |
> yasmā ca kho āvuso na mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ na dhammā manassa
saññojanaŋ |
> yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha
saññojanaŋ |
> tasmā brahmacariyavāso paññāyati sammādukkhayāya ||
>
[PTS the same]
> (vi)
> Tadamināpetaŋ āvuso pariyāyena veditabbaŋ [...]
>
[PTS follows one Burmese Ms and reads:
Iminā petaṃ]
> NA mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
> NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ |
> yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha
saññojanaŋ ||
>
[PTS the same]
> (vii)
> Saŋvijjati kho āvuso bhagavato mano |
> jānāti bhagavā manasā dhammaŋ |
> chandarāgo bhagavato natthi |
> suvimuttacitto bhagavā ||
>
[PTS the same]
> (viii)
> NA mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
> NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ |
> yañca tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha
saññojananti ||
>
[PTS the same]
> [END]
>
> E.M.
 
#2477
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:10 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Here is a slightly novel approach to translating the text, with an
idiom posed in place of an idiom:

(iii)
[...] Na kho āvuso
kāḷo balivaddo odātassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
NAPI odāto balivaddo kāḷassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
yena ca kho te ekena dāmena vā yottena vā saŋyuttā |
taŋ tattha saññejanaŋ ||

"No indeed, my friend, [it is not the case that] a black ox [is put]
to the harness with a white ox,
likewise [it is] not [the case that] a black ox [is put] to the
harness with a white ox, but with whatever indeed [they are] harnessed
together, by that one [bond], [be it] a rope-around-the-head or a
yoke[-over-the-shoulders], that there [is] the harness."

E.M. 

#2478
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:40 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    The reason why I proposed this translation with "put to the harness"
was to address the rather obvious fact that in most of the text, the
harness in question is indeed a noun.

The exceptions are (i) & (viii), viz., the start and finish, where we
get to see /saññojananti/ as a verb.

In any case, I would not feel quite right with "[in] the harness", and
the English idiom is not "at the harness", nor quite "to the harness".
  So, "[put] to the harness", resolves one difficulty, even if it
creates another.

This is not to say that the same word would denote quite so precise a
meaning in the earlier sections, where the literal aspect of /yojana/
has not yet been drawn out:

(i)
[...]
mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
dhammā manassa saññojananti ||

"[For] a mind at a bind with doctrines, doctrines bind the mind."

The obvious temptation would be to render the first half of that more
verbally (ad sensum), "A mind bound"; others might want to lean toward
"[in] the fetter", akin to "[in] the harness" --in either case, the
figurative "bond" becomes a more literal "yoke", as Saariputta
"subverts" the interlocutor's question in sections (iii) & (iv).

However, the second half of the phrase (i) is the last time we get to
translate "bind" as a verb for quite a long time.

E.M. 

#2479
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:56 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Eisel Mazard wrote:
> The reason why I proposed this translation with "put to the harness"
> was to address the rather obvious fact that in most of the text, the
> harness in question is indeed a noun.
>
> The exceptions are (i) & (viii), viz., the start and finish, where we
> get to see /saññojananti/ as a verb.
>

Well, no. That's not possible. It's simply saññojanan ti.

LSC 

#2480
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:51 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Ha ha ha!

Oh, great!

I was "taken in" by the meaningless /-ti/ closing off the quotation!

Thanks, Lance.

I think that's the first time that's happened to me --probably because
I normally don't work from e-texts.

E.M. 

#2481
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:20 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    (i)
[...]
Cakkhu rūpānaŋ saññojanaŋ
rūpā cakkhussa saññojanaŋ |
sotaŋ saddānaŋ saññojanaŋ
saddā sotassa saññojanaŋ |
ghānaŋ gandhānaŋ saññojanaŋ
gandhā ghānassa saññojanaŋ |
jivhā rasānaŋ saññojanaŋ
rasā jivhāya saññojanaŋ |
kāyo phoṭṭhabbānaŋ saññojanaŋ
phoṭṭhabbā kāyassa saññojanaŋ |
mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
dhammā manassa saññojananti ||

[...]
"The eye [comes to] a bind with forms [seen],
Forms [seen come to] a bind with the eye,
The ear [comes to] a bind with sound,
Sounds [come to] a bind with the ear,
The nose [comes to] a bind with odors,
Odors [come to] a bind with the nose,
The tongue [comes to] a bind with savors,
Savors [come to] a bind with the tongue,
The body [comes to] a bind with sensations-of-contact,
Sensations-of-contact [come to] a bind with the body,
The mind [comes to] a bind with doctrines,
Doctrines [come to] a bind with the mind."

(ii)
Na kho āvuso koṭṭhita [...]
[NA] Mano dhammānaŋ saññojanaŋ |
NA dhammā manassa saññojanaŋ ||

"My friend Koṭṭhita, it is indeed not [the case] [...]
The mind does not [come to] a bind with doctrines,
Doctrines do not [come to] a bind with the mind."

(iii)
Seyyathāpi āvuso
kāḷo ca balivaddo odāto ca balivaddo
ekena dāmena vā yottena vā saŋyuttā assu |
yo nu kho evaŋ vadeyya
kāḷo balivaddo odātassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
odāto balivaddo kāḷassa balivaddassa saññojananti ||
Sammā nu kho so vadamāno vadeyyāti ||
No hetaŋ āvuso ||
Na kho āvuso kāḷo balivaddo odātassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
napi odāto balivaddo kāḷassa balivaddassa saññojanaŋ |
yena ca kho te ekena dāmena vā yottena vā saŋyuttā |
taŋ tattha saññejanaŋ ||

"[But] better still [consider this example], my friend,
[Imagine] a black ox and a white ox,
Perhaps bound with one rope-around-the-head or one yoke[-over-the-shoulders],
Indeed anyone might say,
'The black ox [is put to] the harness with the white ox',
'The white ox [is put to] the harness with the black ox'.
Thus, indeed, properly speaking, they might describe [the two coming
together in a bind].
It is not the case, my friend.
No indeed, my friend, [it is not the case that] a black ox [is put] to
the harness with a white ox,
likewise [it is] not [the case that] a black ox [is put] to the
harness with a white ox,
but with whatever indeed [they are] harnessed together,
by that one [bond], [be it] a rope-around-the-head or a
yoke[-over-the-shoulders], that there [is] the harness."

E.M. 

#2482
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:33 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Thanks again to L.C.,

I'm especially glad of this:

>> yena ca kho te ekena dāmena vā yottena vā saŋyuttā |
>>
> [PTS omits te]

When I was translating on paper, I circled that "te" in red, and
wished that it would go away.

My wish is granted.

Incidentally, my reason for not replying to Ole Pind's comment is that
I regard "Tad-" forms as normal (rightly or wrongly) because /d/ is
treated as a normal euphonic augment and euphonic substitute in Kacc.

E.M. 

#2483
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:27 pm 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    Dear Eisel,

The last kings of Kandy also had panegyric poems, called a.s.takas, read
out at the court. The poems were composed in Sanskritized Pali by monks
such as Saranankara Sangharaja. Judging from the accounts given in The
Pali Literature of Ceylon and The Pali Literature of Burma, it seems
that the ups and downs of Pali literature are closely linked to the ups
and downs of royalty. This might be the reason why so little Pali
writing has taken place in Sri Lanka since the British took over.
That letter which Dr. Filliozat analyzed is probably the one written in
1756 CE. I think that it is the one kept in the Ridi Vihara in
Puppharama/Malwatta. It is a roll, kept in a large silver cylinder.
I was using ''dead language'' in a loose sense. When there still is
literary activity going on in a language, then it is still alive in a
sense. I have never been able to confirm it, but I was once told that
the language of communication at the Mahavihara was Pali. There are
still a few monks in Sri Lanka who can speak in Pali. I am not sure how
fluent though. In our archives there are a few letters in Pali composed
by Mahasi Sayadaw to Nyanaponika Thera in the 1950s.
Thanks for the info on the book of fables. I will try to find out more
about it. Talking about fables: there is an  English translation of the
Kacchapa Jataka (The Turtle Birth Story, Jataka story No. 273) now, done
by anonymous translators. Cowell only translated it into Latin because
of its explicit content. It is quite funny.

Regards,
                 Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

Eisel Mazard wrote:
>
> This is a good question, and others should contribute, however:
>
> It is alleged and presumed [passive voice] that there are new
> masterpieces of Pali composition produced in Thailand for every
> funeral in the Royal family, and on numerous other official occasions.
>

#2484
From: tzungkuen@gmail.com 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:55 pm 
Subject: Re: Recent Pali compositions in Burma

    Dear Ven. Pandita, and Ven. Nyanatusita

I have the book in hand. The title is Vipassanaanayappakaran.a. It was
published in 1999.

with much metta

Tzungkuen


2008/8/30, Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com>:
> Dear Venerable Pandita,
>
> Thanks for the information. It would be good if you would be able to
> find out the Pali name of Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw's work so that I can add
> it to the List of Pali literature I am working on. (See
> http://www.bps.lk/other_library/reference_table_of_pali_literature.pdf).
> Doesn't Kyan mean Diipanii? Could it perhaps be
> Vipassanaa-bhaavanaa-diipanii? 

#2485
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:41 pm 
Subject: from the moderator --- concerning Eisel

     Dear Members,

I wish to inform you that Eisel can no longer post to the group. I have
suspended his posting privileges and this could very well be permanent.
However, he can still remain a member and receive the messages.

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson, the moderator

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta]


> I quote myself, from that same message:
>
> "That is very much a loose paraphrase, stated with the the utmost
> brevity, but it brings us rapidly to the point..."
>
> Jim, this is not the first time you've sent insulting messages to me:
> to prevent your being "offended", I had written to you separately,
> off-list, with a letter of encouragement, stating that I was looking
> forward to others pointing out my errors, that I would be eager to see
> that I was wrong, etc., to show you (directly) that I was opening this
> as a discussion for all, with an open mind --and, indeed, several
> other people have now taken up a more detailed study of the syntax of
> the text (their attention drawn to it by my "loose paraphrase", etc.).
>
> When I wrote the first two messages to the list, I did not actually
> have very much time, but I was excited with what I had noticed in the
> text, and I've managed to pass on some of that excitement to others,
> it seems.
>
> If this is not the sort of "crap" that you want on the list, all I can say
is,
>
> "Best wishes",
> E.M.

#2486
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:13 am 
Subject: S IV 163

    I have spent some time on the problems of the syntax of the sentence yañ ca
tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha saññojanan ti
(S IV 163). In all occurrences of the phrase paṭicca uppajjati the subject of
the sentence follows immediately after uppajjati. Consequently chandarāgo must
be the subject of uppajjati. tattha is as I have mentioned in another post no
doubt used with the value of a demonstrative pronoun in the locative (singular
or plural as Sanskrit tatra). See S III 166 yo tattha (i.e. ruupa.m)
chandaraago, ta.m tattha saññojana.m. A parallel about saññojana.m. without
tattha and devoid of the ambiguities of the samyutta passages is found at M I
61. S IV 163 is odd. How are we, for instance, to interpret na yida.m
brahmacariyavaaso on p. 163? The on-glide /y/ is understandable, bur what about
ida.m ?

O.H.P.

#2487
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:31 am 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> I have spent some time on the problems of the syntax of the sentence yañ ca
tattha tadubhayaŋ paṭicca uppajjati chandarāgo taŋ tattha saññojanan ti
(S IV 163). In all occurrences of the phrase paṭicca uppajjati the subject of
the sentence follows immediately after uppajjati. Consequently chandarāgo must
be the subject of uppajjati.
Yes, that is a good point.

Perhaps then we should ignore the gender issue as regards yaṃ and taṃ
and translate literally as I originally did:

The chandaraaga which arises there in dependence upon both of these is the
fetter there.

Or rendering tattha as eqhivalent to tesu:

The chandaraaga which arises in relation to these in dependence upon both of
them is the fetter in relation to these.

But I can't say I feel happy with this. ? Influence of:

yañ ca tadubhayaṃ paṭicca uppajjati saṃyojanaṃ

Perhaps the chanting of the (Mahā)satipaṭṭhānasutta was sufficiently
well-known to affect the syntax here.


> tattha is as I have mentioned in another post no doubt used with the value of
a demonstrative pronoun in the locative (singular or plural as Sanskrit tatra).
See S III 166 yo tattha (i.e. ruupa.m) chandaraago, ta.m tattha saññojana.m. A
parallel about saññojana.m. without tattha and devoid of the ambiguities of
the samyutta passages is found at M I 61. S IV 163 is odd. How are we, for
instance, to interpret na yida.m brahmacariyavaaso on p. 163? The on-glide /y/
is understandable, bur what about ida.m ?
>
> O.H.P.
>
This does occur elsewhere in SN and the reading is ancient:

Spk II 324 (to S III 144, cf. 148): _na-y-idaṃ brahmacariyavāso
paññāyethā_ ti ayaṃ magga-brahmacariya-vāso nāma na paññāyeyya.

I suspect that the form na yidaṃ brahmacariyavāso should be more
widespread, but has been normalized out.

I am not sure how to interpret it - idaṃ < iyaṃ = ayaṃ ?


LSC 

#2488
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:31 am 
Subject: S IV 163 

    Yes, I agree Lance. We can safely ignore the gender issue because the
passage appears to be a rehash of earlier canonical material, where
sa.n.nojana.m (n.) determined the use of the ya.m ... ta.m. They probably
forgot to adjust the grammar. It is interesting, though. I have rarely come
across such peculiar examples of lack of co-reference.

Ole

#2489
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:54 pm 
Subject: ida.m

    Lance, I think that ida.m is an adverb in expressions like na yida.m. which
sometimes would explain the apparent lack of agreement. ida.m is sometimes
used as an adverb in the sense "here, now" or the like. Some of the
commentators interpret it as a nipaata (i.e. as an adverb like in Sanskrit).
Smith and Dines Andersen addressed the adverbal usage in CPD s.v. aya.m.
(see the online CPD).  We may compare an expression like ekam idaaha.m
samaya.m etc., cf. Sanskrit idaa.

Ole

#2490
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:56 pm 
Subject: Re: S IV 163

    Dear Lance and Ole,

Thank-you both for your contributions concerning the ya~n ca tattha passage
at S IV 163.

In Lance's message:
> Spk II 324 (to S III 144, cf. 148): _na-y-idaṃ brahmacariyavāso
> paññāyethā_ ti ayaṃ magga-brahmacariya-vāso nāma na paññāyeyya.

The "nāma" above caught my attention as a possible solution to the gender
issue concerning ya~n... chandaraago..., i.e., could we not also read a
"nāma" after "chandaraago"? "But what... arises, <namely,> chandaraago..." I
agree that tattha is tasmi.m or tesu (in the seventh case). The problem now
is to go through the various uses of the sattamiivibhatti in the traditonal
grammar and identify which one of the suttas or rules in the kaarakakappa is
applicable. We also have to be quite clear as to what "tattha" is referring
to. Another question is: why the singular and not the plural for
chandaraago? I will look further into these matters when time permits.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2491
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:41 pm 
Subject: Re: ida.m

    Ole,

Yes, this must be right. CPD in fact renders na-y-idaṃ as 'not at all'
and that seems exactly right for this passage.

Lance


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Lance, I think that ida.m is an adverb in expressions like na yida.m. which
> sometimes would explain the apparent lack of agreement. ida.m is sometimes
> used as an adverb in the sense "here, now" or the like. Some of the
> commentators interpret it as a nipaata (i.e. as an adverb like in Sanskrit).
> Smith and Dines Andersen addressed the adverbal usage in CPD s.v. aya.m.
> (see the online CPD).  We may compare an expression like ekam idaaha.m
> samaya.m etc., cf. Sanskrit idaa.
 
#2492
From: Ngawang Dorje <rahula_80@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:29 pm 
Subject: TimesPTSA

    Hi,
�
Is it true that TimesPTSA is only Macintosh compatible. How do I read a document
using Windows if its written using TimesPTSA?
�
Thanks,
Rahula

#2493
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:18 am 
Subject: Re: {palistudy] from the moderator --- concerning Eisel

    Dear Members,

This is an update on the situation with Eisel. He unsubscribed from the
group the day after I turned off his posting privilege. We had several email
exchnages this week to air out our thoughts and feelings on the matter. I
apologized to him and offered him an opportunity to re-join to which he
declined. He says he is not angry, so that is good news!

I think it is in the best interest of myself and the group that he not
return. As a moderator, I have found him difficult to deal with at times ---
like having to deal with a schoolyard bully.

This list will probably be a lot quieter now that Eisel has left.
Nervertheless, it is always there for anyone who cares to post something of
interest when the spirit moves him or her.

Best wishes,
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 11:41 PM
Subject: from the moderator --- concerning Eisel


> Dear Members,
>
> I wish to inform you that Eisel can no longer post to the group. I have
> suspended his posting privileges and this could very well be permanent.
> However, he can still remain a member and receive the messages.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim Anderson, the moderator 

#2494
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 12:31 pm 
Subject: Re: Pali composition

    Namaskara Venerable Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,

Here are the citations for two "new" Pali compositions from Thailand.

The first is a new Pali chronicle composed by Banyen Limsavati under the
auspices of the present Sangharaja of Thailand (Somdet Phra Sangharaja
Sakalamahasangghaparinayok Somdet Phra Nanasangvara). It was published in 2547
[2004]. It is titled "Sasanadipani" and is 57 pages of text (Roman script) or
166 pages of handwritten Thai script). It was published at Wat Boworniwet in
Bangkok. There are copies available in several bookstores in Thailand. They are
free gifts given at the monastery as well.

The second is not particularly new, but newly published. It is a collection of
Pali letters composed by King Mongkut (Rama IV) from 1830s-1862). The collection
is:
Prachum Phra Rachaniphon Bhasa Bali nai Phra Bat Somdet Phra Chom Klao Chao Yu
Hua (Bangkok: National Office of Religious Affairs, 2547 [2004]). There are
letters, chants, edicts, and the like composed in Pali by the king. A very nice
collection in Thai script.

There are of course many many short Pali chants (and Pali-Sanskrit-Khmer-Thai
hybrid chants) composed in Thailand on a regular basis. These are often found
inscribed on the bases of new Buddha images or on plastic signs in front of
altars of new Brahmanic or Buddhist images. I have written about these a bit in
a new book on magic and ghosts in Theravada Buddhism in Thailand. I have also
written about Pali composition in Thailand in general and the history of Pali
education in Thailand in two publications: Gathering Leaves and Lifting Words:
Histories of Monastic Education in Laos and Thailand (Seattle: University of
Washington Press, 2008) and an article on the history of Pali grammatical texts
in Thailand in the new festschrift for W.S. Karunatillake published in Columbo
(2008).

Respectfully,
justin
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
3046 INTN
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
951-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu


---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 08:28:31 +0530
>From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Pali composition
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>   Dear Justin,
>
>   Thanks for the reply. Please send me the details
>   (author, name of work,
>   and year of publication) so that I can include it in
>   my list of Pali
>   literature (see
>   http://www.bps.lk/other_library/reference_table_of_pali_literature.pdf).
>   It will also be put on a German scholarly website
>   soon.
>
>   Regards,
>   Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

#2495
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:49 pm 
Subject: SV: Re: {palistudy] from the moderator --- concerning Eisel

    Dear Jim,

The attached paper is going to be published in Thailand. I thought that you
might be interested in the grammatical implications. Keep it tight till it
is published.

Best wishes,
Ole

#2496
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:48 am 
Subject: Re: Re: {palistudy] from the moderator --- concerning Eisel

    Dear Members,

Obviously, the message below was sent to the group by mistake. We will
get the title of Ole's paper and publication details after it is
published.

Best wishes,
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 12:49 PM
Subject: SV: [palistudy] Re: {palistudy] from the moderator ---
concerning Eisel


> Dear Jim,
>
> The attached paper is going to be published in Thailand. I thought that you
> might be interested in the grammatical implications. Keep it tight till it
> is published.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ole 

#2497
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:45 am 
Subject: Dhp-a III 128

    Dear Jim and group,

One ms reads missattaa, that�s an abl. sg. from missa + tta (n.). The idea
is that since birth is mixed with ageing etc. it is painful. The reading
missittaaya is incomprehensible. I would suggest the following conjecture:
missitataaya instr. < missita pp. + taa (f.). The meaning is basically the
same: because of being mixed with etc.
tasmi.m adi.t.the is a loc. absl. It refers to the fact that jaati does no
stop (na ca saa ... nivattati) when he (the gahakaaraka viz. the body) is
not seen. Cf. verse 154

Best wishes,
Ole

#2498
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:33 pm 
Subject: Re: Dhp-a III 128

    Dear Ole,

Thanks for your observations. With this and Mahinda Palihawadana's
response on the other Pali list, the matter is now cleared up for me.
I made the mistake of trying to work with the meaning of 'return' for
"nivattati" instead of: stop, cease, come to an end which aren't in
the PED entry although it has "vanish, disappear". Isn't the
gahakaaraka (the housebuilder), craving (ta.nhaava.d.dhakii) and the
house, selfhood (attabhaava)?

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2499
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Oct 3, 2008 5:15 am 
Subject: what does sutta denote? 

    sutta is mentioned first in the old list of literary form in the Pali canon
sutta.m, geyya.m, etc. Now sutta (always referred to in the singular)
denotes the Paatimokkha (presumably an early form) - commented in the
Suttavibha.ga of the Vinaya. sutta contrasts with suttanta (often referred
to in the plural in the Pali canon) the assumed speeches of the Bhagavat.

Ole Holten Pind

#2500
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2008 6:46 am 
Subject: Re: what does sutta denote?

    Ole,

The problem with this argument is that the list of three, four or nine
literary forms is specifically a description of dhamma. But dhamma
doesn't necessarily include vinaya; rather, the two are contrasted. So
while sutta in Vinaya contexts may well refer to the Pātimokkha and
derive from sūtra, that is unlikely to be the case in this list.

In this list it seems to be a synonym for suttanta or suttanta may refer
especially to larger discourses. If so, sutta should correspond to
Sanskrit sūkta; so Pali sutta in the Nikāyas (or in this list) would be
equivalent to suvutta.

It does seem correct that sutta does not appear in the plural. (The
exception is various uddānas and the like that are part of some,
probably later, editing process.) This could be taken to mean that the
term sutta is actually later than suttanta. That would depend on how one
explains the form -anta-. Or, suttanta may have been felt to be a
weightier form, giving more respect.

We may note that the list of nine literary forms is largely an
Aṅguttaranikāya list. It does not occur in either the Dīghanikāya or the
Saṃyuttanikāya. In the Majjhimanikāya (M III 115; cf. Peṭ 9f.; Nett 128)
we meet the early form: suttaṃ geyyaṃ veyyākaraṇaṃ. Probably we have
suttaṃ here rather than suttantaṃ to obtain a sequence of waxing
syllables and to put suttaṃ in first place.

And of course the sāsana is only referred to as ninefold (navaṅga or
navavidha) in very late portions  of the Canon.

Lance


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> sutta is mentioned first in the old list of literary form in the Pali canon
> sutta.m, geyya.m, etc. Now sutta (always referred to in the singular)
> denotes the Paatimokkha (presumably an early form) - commented in the
> Suttavibha.ga of the Vinaya. sutta contrasts with suttanta (often referred
> to in the plural in the Pali canon) the assumed speeches of the Bhagavat.
>
> Ole Holten Pind
> 

#2501
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2008 11:57 am 
Subject: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Lance,

One of the most interesting passages in which sutta is found is D II 124 = A II
168. It occurs in the locative singular-sutte-and contrasts with vinaye.
Buddhaghosa starts out explaining that sutta in this connection refers to Vinaya
and sutte means suttavibha.nge. He goes on explaining that vinaye means the
khandaka and he quotes an interesting-and I would say original style
paatimokkhasutta: vinayaatisaare from the cullavagga II 306 where other similar
suttas are quoted. This means that the canonical passage on this interpretation
only refers to the paatimokkhasutta and the khandaka.
Then Buddhaghosa continues explaining the passage in such a way that it covers
all of the then known canon, which is understandable as he would like to see the
passage as one involving all of the canon. However, I tend to think that the
first explanation which I assume is based upon older material is the right one.

Lamotte devoted a well-known article to this passage and rejected Buddhaghosa´s
interpretation as fantastic. However, he overlooked that sutte cannot mean "in
the sutras."  Even the Buddhist Sanskrit tradition imitates the loc. sg.
However, we have no reason to believe that monastic discipline and the rules of
the paatimokkha were not of greater concern to the early Buddhists than the
suttantas. I believe that this interesting text was inserted in the
Mahaaparinibbaana-suttanta by its redactors to illustrate how to proceed when
claims about discipline would be raised after the cremation of the Buddha and he
no longer could be addressed as an authority on matters of discipline. Conflicts
that were started by questions related to discipline are well-known. It is
highly unlikely that the text would have dealt with the authenticity of the
canonical texts as a whole. Thus questions relative to the authenticity of the
canonical text are not at stake on this interpretation.

Ole



-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 04 October 2008 12:46
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] what does sutta denote?

Ole,

The problem with this argument is that the list of three, four or nine literary
forms is specifically a description of dhamma. But dhamma doesn't necessarily
include vinaya; rather, the two are contrasted. So while sutta in Vinaya
contexts may well refer to the Pātimokkha and derive from sūtra, that is
unlikely to be the case in this list.

In this list it seems to be a synonym for suttanta or suttanta may refer
especially to larger discourses. If so, sutta should correspond to Sanskrit
sūkta; so Pali sutta in the Nikāyas (or in this list) would be equivalent to
suvutta.

It does seem correct that sutta does not appear in the plural. (The exception is
various uddānas and the like that are part of some, probably later, editing
process.) This could be taken to mean that the term sutta is actually later than
suttanta. That would depend on how one explains the form -anta-. Or, suttanta
may have been felt to be a weightier form, giving more respect.

We may note that the list of nine literary forms is largely an
Aṅguttaranikāya list. It does not occur in either the Dīghanikāya or the
Saṃyuttanikāya. In the Majjhimanikāya (M III 115; cf. Peṭ 9f.; Nett 128)
we meet the early form: suttaṃ geyyaṃ veyyākaraṇaṃ. Probably we have
suttaṃ here rather than suttantaṃ to obtain a sequence of waxing syllables
and to put suttaṃ in first place.

And of course the sāsana is only referred to as ninefold (navaṅga or
navavidha) in very late portions  of the Canon.

Lance

#2502
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sat Oct 4, 2008 5:35 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Ole,

I think Buddhaghosa's interpretation is partially based upon Nett 22:

katamasmiṃ sutte otārayitabbāni? catūsu ariyasaccesu. katamasmiṃ vinaye
sandassayitabbāni? rāgavinaye dosavinaye mohavinaye.

"To which well-uttered thing should <the words and syllables>  be fitted
? To the four ariya truths. To which disciplining should <the words and
syllables> be compared ? To the disciplining of passion, to the
disciplining of hatred, to the disciplining of delusion."

Buddhaghosa retains this interpretation of vinaya, but prefers to
interpret sutta as tepiṭake Buddhavacane 'the word of the Buddha in the
three piṭakas'. He bases this on the authority of the arguments put
forward by the otherwise unknown Sudinnatthera. Sudinna too retained the
Nett interpretation of vinaya but argued that nothing which can be
designated as Buddhavacana  can be described as non-sutta (asutta).

In order to arrive at the position that sutta = 'the word of the Buddha
in the three piṭakas', Buddhaghosa precedes step by step. So he starts
from a minimal position and then successively expands. Setting this out:
A = Vinaya   B = Khandhaka
A = the twofold Vibhaṅga   B = the Khandhaka & Parivāra
A = Suttapiṭaka   B = Vinayapiṭaka
A = Suttantapiṭaka and Abhidhammapiṭaka    B = Vinayapiṭaka
There then seems to have been an issue concerning whether the works of
the Khuddakanikāya count as part of the Suttapiṭaka.
The final position is that:
A = the word of the Buddha in the three piṭakas

This is a logical sequence of argument. I do not believe we can extract
the first occurrence and interpret it as a remnant of older material. It
is integral to his line of thought.

Lance

Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Lance,
>
> One of the most interesting passages in which sutta is found is D II 124 = A
II 168. It occurs in the locative singular-sutte-and contrasts with vinaye.
Buddhaghosa starts out explaining that sutta in this connection refers to Vinaya
and sutte means suttavibha.nge. He goes on explaining that vinaye means the
khandaka and he quotes an interesting-and I would say original style
paatimokkhasutta: vinayaatisaare from the cullavagga II 306 where other similar
suttas are quoted. This means that the canonical passage on this interpretation
only refers to the paatimokkhasutta and the khandaka.
> Then Buddhaghosa continues explaining the passage in such a way that it covers
all of the then known canon, which is understandable as he would like to see the
passage as one involving all of the canon. However, I tend to think that the
first explanation which I assume is based upon older material is the right one.
>

#2503
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2008 8:27 am 
Subject: Re: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Dear Ole and Lance,

  As far as I know there is no occurence of the word “Paatimokkhasutta”
anywhere in the Pali. Dr. von Hinueber apparently has adapted the
Sanskrit usage (Praatimok.sasuutra) in his paper on the Patimokkhasutta
(in German) but I don't agree with him. The use of Praatimok.sasuutra
might have originated from a misunderstanding, on the part of those who
translated the Paatimokkha into Sanskrit, of sutta in Paacittiya 73, in
the Pátimokkha conclusion and in the word Suttavibhanga. Hinueber
himself  mentions in another paper that neither sutta nor suttanta occur
in any of the titles of texts referred to in the five Pali nikaayas.

  It seems to me that Sutta in suttaagata (in Paacittiya rule 73 and in
the Paatimokkha conclusion) and in the word Suttavibhanga, is a synonym
for the Paatimokkha because the structure of the Paatimokkha is one of
of concise rules, suttas, strung together (sutta/suutra) into one string
. (In a similar way, the "Rule" of Saint Benedict is made up of
individual rules.)

  There is a passage where sutta is being used both as one of the nine
angas and in the sense of a string, and where the last usage seems to
stand for the Paatimokkha: In the introduction to the Suttavibhanga, Vin
III 8 f., the Buddha said that the brahmacariya under some of the
previous Buddhas did not last long because these Buddhas (Book of
Discipline I 15:) "were idle in preaching dhamma in detail to the
disciples; and of these there was little sutta, verse, … , the training
for their disciples was not made known, the Pátimokkha was not
recited.": "… appakañ-ca nesa.m ahosi sutta.m geyya.m … vedalla.m,
appaññatta.m saavakaana.m sikkhaapada.m anuddi.t.tha.m Paatimokkha.m."
Those disciples who let the brahmacariya disappear were likened by the
Buddha to loose flowers on a board that are scattered by the wind since
they are not tied together by a string/thread: "suttena
asa''ngahitattaa." (Cf. Saamagaamasuttanta; MN 104.) Ven. Saariputta
then requested the Buddha to declare the training and to recite the
Paatimokkha, but the Buddha declined saying that he would not do so
until the conditions causing taints/outflows (aasavaa) appeared in the
Sangha.

  The other divisions of the navanga might also refer to the structure or
content matter of the texts in the Canon rather than to the titles of
texts, i.e., one suttanta can contain veyyaakara.na, gaathaa and
abbhutadhamma. For example, see MN 49, esp. M I 330, and the
Dhammacakkapavattana-veyyaakara.na, which contains an udaana and an
abbhutadhamma (i.e. an earthquake). Likewise a few Jaataka stories are
found in the Vinaya Pi.taka.

  Regards,
                 Bh Nyanatusita

>
>
>>
>> Ole Holten Pind wrote:
>> > Lance,
>> >
>> > One of the most interesting passages in which sutta is found is D
>> II 124 = A II 168. It occurs in the locative singular-sutte-and
>> contrasts with vinaye. Buddhaghosa starts out explaining that sutta
>> in this connection refers to Vinaya and sutte means suttavibha.nge.
>> He goes on explaining that vinaye means the khandaka and he quotes an
>> interesting-and I would say original style paatimokkhasutta:

#2504
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2008 9:05 am 
Subject: SV: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Dear Bh Nyanatusita and Lance,

<As far as I know there is no occurence of the word “Paatimokkhasutta”
anywhere in the Pali>

You are right. The term paatimokkha is used at M III 10; A I 98; IV 206 and V 70
to denote the rules recorded in the sutta. When commentators refer to the sutta
it is usually glossed as paatimokkha.

<It seems to me that Sutta in suttaagata (in Paacittiya rule 73 and in the
Paatimokkha conclusion) and in the word Suttavibhanga, is a synonym for the
Paatimokkha>

This is also my view.

<appakañ-ca nesa.m ahosi sutta.m geyya.m … vedalla.m, appaññatta.m
saavakaana.m sikkhaapada.m anuddi.t.tha.m Paatimokkha.m.>

This lovely example should be added to those I mention above.

I think that the distinction between sutta = paatimokkha and Vinaya = khandhaka
is worth while reflecting upon especially in the context of the well-known
Diigha passage. The cullavagga sutta Vin II 306-7: vinayaatisaare dukka.tam
unlike the rest of the suttas quoted, which have parallels in the paacittiya,
refers to Mahaavagga II.8.3 and IX.3.5 that is the khandhaka.

Regards,
Ole
>
>
>>
>> Ole Holten Pind wrote:
>> > Lance,
>> >
>> > One of the most interesting passages in which sutta is found is D
>> II 124 = A II 168. It occurs in the locative singular-sutte-and
>> contrasts with vinaye. Buddhaghosa starts out explaining that sutta
>> in this connection refers to Vinaya and sutte means suttavibha.nge.
>> He goes on explaining that vinaye means the khandaka and he quotes an
>> interesting-and I would say original style paatimokkhasutta:

#2505
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 5, 2008 10:17 am 
Subject: Re: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Dear Ven. Nyanatusita,

Some specific comments:
>  Dear Ole and Lance,
>
>  As far as I know there is no occurence of the word “Paatimokkhasutta”
> anywhere in the Pali. Dr. von Hinueber apparently has adapted the
> Sanskrit usage (Praatimok.sasuutra) in his paper on the Patimokkhasutta
> (in German) but I don't agree with him. The use of Praatimok.sasuutra
> might have originated from a misunderstanding, on the part of those who
> translated the Paatimokkha into Sanskrit, of sutta in Paacittiya 73, in
> the Pátimokkha conclusion and in the word Suttavibhanga.
Yes, I agree.
>  Hinueber
> himself  mentions in another paper that neither sutta nor suttanta occur
> in any of the titles of texts referred to in the five Pali nikaayas.
>
If OvH says this, it is an error. See for example:

Ap II 546 Mahānidānasuttantaṃ sutvā taṃ pariyāpuṇiṃ

and in the Cūḷaniddesa (cited after VRI):
  bhagavā [Ne 149] pañca Jātakasatāni bhāsanto attano ca paresañ ca
atītaṃ ādisati, Mahāpadāniyasuttantaṃ {Mahādhaniyasuttaṃ (Se) }bhāsanto
attano ca paresañ ca atītaṃ ādisati, Mahāsudassaniyasuttantaṃ bhāsanto
attano ca paresañ ca atītaṃ ādisati, Mahāgovindiyasuttantaṃ bhāsanto
attano ca paresañ ca atītaṃ ādisati, Maghadeviyasuttantaṃ bhāsanto
attano ca paresañca atītaṃ ādisati.

Probably he said (or meant to say): in the four Nikāyas.
>
>  It seems to me that Sutta in suttaagata (in Paacittiya rule 73 and in
> the Paatimokkha conclusion) and in the word Suttavibhanga, is a synonym
> for the Paatimokkha because the structure of the Paatimokkha is one of
> of concise rules, suttas, strung together (sutta/suutra) into one string
> . (In a similar way, the "Rule" of Saint Benedict is made up of
> individual rules.)
>
Perhaps. Or sutta in these compounds is simply plural. Of course, the
notion of a sūtra made up  of sūtras is standard in brahminical literature.
>  There is a passage where sutta is being used both as one of the nine
> angas and in the sense of a string, and where the last usage seems to
> stand for the Paatimokkha: In the introduction to the Suttavibhanga, Vin
> III 8 f., the Buddha said that the brahmacariya under some of the
> previous Buddhas did not last long because these Buddhas (Book of
> Discipline I 15:) "were idle in preaching dhamma in detail to the
> disciples; and of these there was little sutta, verse, … , the training
> for their disciples was not made known, the Pátimokkha was not
> recited.": "… appakañ-ca nesa.m ahosi sutta.m geyya.m … vedalla.m,
> appaññatta.m saavakaana.m sikkhaapada.m anuddi.t.tha.m Paatimokkha.m."
> Those disciples who let the brahmacariya disappear were likened by the
> Buddha to loose flowers on a board that are scattered by the wind since
> they are not tied together by a string/thread: "suttena
> asa''ngahitattaa." (Cf. Saamagaamasuttanta; MN 104.) Ven. Saariputta
> then requested the Buddha to declare the training and to recite the
> Paatimokkha, but the Buddha declined saying that he would not do so
> until the conditions causing taints/outflows (aasavaa) appeared in the
> Sangha.
>
To me it seems that what has happened here is that the passage
originally read:
appakañ ca nesaṃ ahosi suttaṃ  apaññattaṃ sāvakānaṃ sikkhāpadaṃ
"and they had a small Thread (i.e. Pātimokkha), the training rule(s)
were not ordained to his disciples .. ."

Then under the influence of the previous kilāsuno ahesuṃ sāvakānaṃ
vitthārena dhammaṃ desetuṃ the word suttaṃ has been reinterpreted and
expanded into the list of the nine kinds of dhamma.  Note that for this
to happen it is sufficient initially to have the intrusion of only a
single akṣara: pe.

Lance 

#2506
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2008 12:54 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Dear Ole,

I agree that it is likely that that sutte in D II 124 = A II 168 refers
to the Patimokkha / Suttavibhanga and the Vinaya to the Khandhakas..
This Cullavagga passage is quite interesting, the rule-discussion with
Vinayaatisaare you mentions refers to the Uposatha-sa.myutta, while the
next one, which is also referring to a rule in the Khandakas, refers to
the Vinaya-vatthu. This could indicate that when the second council took
place, and/or when it was recorded, the Mahavagga and Cullavagga did not
exist as titles yet and that there were collections called
Uposatha-sa.myutta and Vinaya-vatthu, which are now (part of?) the
Uposatha-kkhandhaka and the Campeyya-kkhandhaka of the Maha and
Cullavagga. I don't know if the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya contains a
Vinaya-vastu but it does contain a Posadha-vastu.
Regards,
                 Bhikkhu Nyanatusita




>
>
> I think that the distinction between sutta = paatimokkha and Vinaya =
> khandhaka is worth while reflecting upon especially in the context of
> the well-known Diigha passage. The cullavagga sutta Vin II 306-7:
> vinayaatisaare dukka.tam unlike the rest of the suttas quoted, which
> have parallels in the paacittiya, refers to Mahaavagga II.8.3 and
> IX.3.5 that is the khandhaka.
>
> Regards,
> Ole

#2507
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2008 12:54 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: what does sutta denote? 

    Dear Lance,

I'd need to check Hinueber's paper on the 9 angas to check what exactly
he wrote. The paper was written in 1994, before the digital Tipitakas
appeared, so he might have overlooked the examples you mention. In any
case, there seem to be no occurences in the 4 main Nikayas, and the
Apadana and Niddesa are usually considered to be later works.

I agree with your suggestion that the nine angas might have come later
into the account of the request for laying down the Patimokkha.The nine
angas don't really make sense in this context and the passage makes more
sense without them. Are there perhaps parallels to this passage in the
Vinayas of other early schools? Perhaps in the Posadhavastu? It would be
worthwhile to check but I don't have the materials here.

  (“To me it seems that what has happened here is that the passage
originally read: appakañ ca nesaṃ ahosi suttaṃ apaññattaṃ sāvakānaṃ
sikkhāpadaṃ "and they had a small Thread (i.e. Pātimokkha), the training
rule(s) were not ordained to his disciples .. ." Then under the
influence of the previous kilāsuno ahesuṃ sāvakānaṃ vitthārena dhammaṃ
desetuṃ the word suttaṃ has been reinterpreted and expanded into the
list of the nine kinds of dhamma. Note that for this to happen it is
sufficient initially to have the intrusion of only a single akṣara: pe.”)

Regards,
                  Bh Nyanatusita

L.S. Cousins wrote:
>
> Dear Ven. Nyanatusita,
>
> Some specific comments:
> > Dear Ole and Lance,
> >
> > As far as I know there is no occurence of the word “Paatimokkhasutta”
> > anywhere in the Pali. Dr. von Hinueber apparently has adapted the
> > Sanskrit usage (Praatimok.sasuutra) in his paper on the Patimokkhasutta
> > (in German) but I don't agree with him. The use of Praatimok.sasuutra
> > might have originated from a misunderstanding, on the part of those who

#2508
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 6, 2008 1:22 pm 
Subject: Re: what does sutta denote?

    Ole and Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,

Some further thoughts on sutta:

1. If suttanta is a compound of sutta plus anta, it is difficult to
believe that sutta here can have been the Pātimokkha. But that assumes
that -anta- is pleonastic. You may perhaps have a different
interpretation. Comparing to Veda & Vedānta ?

2. The current Mss and editions of the Nikāyas very frequently have
sutta as part of the title of discourses. While there is reason to say
that this may often be the result of later editing, it is clear that
many discourses are referred to with names ending in sutta- in the
commentaries of Buddhaghosa. That being so, we cannot be sure that these
names are not original - especially in the case of the Saṃyutta and
Aṅguttara.

3. Sutta in the general sense that covers virtually all of the contents
of the Suttantapiṭaka is extremely frequent in the Peṭakopadesa and
Nettipakaraṇa. The recent discovery that a chapter of Peṭ was translated
into Chinese in the second century A.D. means that it is possible that
this usage was already current in the first century A.D. or before.
Given that even the threefold list of kinds of dhamma is not found in
some of our earliest sources, it is not certain that it is necessarily
earlier than the kind of usage we have in the paracanonical literature.

4. There seem then to be various possibilities:

a) Sutta < sūtra gives rise to suttanta and also to sutta in the lists
of kinds of dhamma;

b) Whatever the original usage is that creates suttanta, it may be that
sutta has been extracted from suttanta for inclusion in the four
mahāpadesa passage and (later?) in the threefold (eventually ninefold
and twelvefold) list of kinds of dhamma. In that case it does not refer
to the Pātimokkha in these contexts;

c) Sūtra and sūkta have become homonymous in Middle Indian. In the
non-Vinaya contexts we are dealing with the latter. So suttanta will be
a later formulation after confusion of the two forms.

I am not sure we have enough data to reach a firm conclusion.

Lance 

#2509
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Oct 7, 2008 7:10 am 
Subject: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Lance and Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,

A few notes on sutta and suttanta:

The occurrences of suttanta in the texts of the Pali canon are limited,
which would indicate that this usage was not particularly well established
The few examples I have been able to trace occur in S and A, which is
interesting in itself. However, suttanta appears frequently throughout the
Kathaavatthu. There are more than 200 examples accompanied by canonical
quotations. There are no examples in Kv where sutta is used to denote the
canonical texts. In fact, it does not occur at all in Kv. At some point the
distiction between sutta and suttanta may no longer have been of any concern
as appears from Pe.t and Nett as well as the commentaries. The semantics of
anta is not clear. Cf. ,for instance, the use of kamma and kammanta.

The term sutta is recorded in the cpd. suttaagata in Paac. 73, Vin IV 144
and is interpreted as sutte = Paatimokkhe aagata in Ka.nkhaavititara.nii.

I assume that the reason why sutta is mentioned first in the old list of
canonical lit. (in M III 104 it stops after veyyakara.na)is that it differed
from the other texts because it was important for ritual purposes and
because it was a real suutra of the kind we find in Sanskrit literature. The
few short suttas included in Paatimokkha are probably reflexes of this
particular style like, for instance, the use of the locative to denote the
nimitta of an action. The general form is "for x (loc.) y" (also found in
Sanskrit suutras). However, the suttas were evidently re-written as appears
from the fact that some of them contain not fully integrated traces of the
old formulation.

Ole 

#2510
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 7, 2008 11:18 am 
Subject: Re: what does sutta denote?

    Dear Ole, (also Lance, and Bh.. Nyanatusita)

> The occurrences of suttanta in the texts of the Pali canon are limited,
> which would indicate that this usage was not particularly well established
> The few examples I have been able to trace occur in S and A, which is
> interesting in itself. However, suttanta appears frequently throughout the
> Kathaavatthu. There are more than 200 examples accompanied by canonical
> quotations. There are no examples in Kv where sutta is used to denote the
> canonical texts. In fact, it does not occur at all in Kv. At some point
> the distiction between sutta and suttanta may no longer have been of any
> concern as appears from Pe.t and Nett as well as the commentaries. The
> semantics of anta is not clear. Cf. ,for instance, the use of kamma and
> kammanta.

On 'anta', there is the following passage from Ledi Sayadaw's
Niruttidiipanii, pp. 44-5:

"mahaavuttinaa padaana.m ante gata, jaata, anta saddaa aagamaa honti.
ruupagata.m {ma0 ni0 2.133} vedanaagata.m {ma0 ni0 2.133}, sa~n~naagata.m
{ma0 ni0 2.133}, guuthagata.m {ma0 ni0 2.119}, muttagata.m {ma0 ni0
2.119},di.t.thigata.m {mahaava0 66}, atthaaata.m {paaraa0 a.t.tha0
1.pa.thamamahaasa"ngiitikathaa}, dhammajaata.m, suttanto {kathaa0 226},
vananto, sammaakammanto, micchaakammanto iccaadi."

It is found in the AAgamasandhiraasi section of the Sandhika.n.da. Here, the
'anta' part of 'suttanta' is taken as an augment or insertion (aagama) added
to 'sutta' and so seem not to have any semantic value or meaning. So far,
this is the only explanation of the 'anta' part that I've been able to find.
In the case of Sanskrit, I tried looking in the Kaa"sikaav.rtti for
"vedaanta", for example, and find nothing. Another possibility I thought of
for the 'anta' part in 'Suttantapi.taka' is that it is the familiar word
'anta' (end) and Suttantapi.taka is an appendix added to the Vinayapi.taka
(cf. the definition of sutta"nga in the nidaanas to Sp and Sv).

I have been following the discussion with much interest but have not
contributed much as I find the usages of sutta and suttanta in the texts all
quite bewildering.

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2511
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 7, 2008 8:09 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Ole and Bhikkhu Nyanatusita:

1. On occurrences of Suttanta & Suttantika, we need to note that they
are both found in the Vinaya:

Vin III 159 & II 75f.:
ye te bhikkhū suttantikā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti — “te
aññamaññaṃ suttantaṃ saṅgāyissantī” ti. ye te bhikkhū vinayadharā tesaṃ
ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti — “te aññamaññaṃ vinayaṃ vinicchinissantī”
ti. ye te bhikkhū dhammakathikā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti — “te
aññamaññaṃ dhammaṃ sākacchissantī” ti. ye te bhikkhū jhāyino tesaṃ
ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti — “te aññamaññaṃ na byābādhissantī” ti.
Vin IV 67:
ayyo bhāṇako, ayyo bahussuto, ayyo suttantiko, ayyo vinayadharo, ayyo
dhammakathiko, detha ayyassa, karotha ayyassā”
Vin IV 144:
iṅgha tvaṃ suttante vā gāthāyo vā abhidhammaṃ vā pariyāpuṇassu, pacchā
vinayaṃ pariyāpuṇissasī ti
Vin IV 344:
pañhaṃ puccheyyā_ ti suttante okāsaṃ kārāpetvā vinayaṃ vā abhidhammaṃ vā
pucchati, āpatti pācittiyassa. vinaye okāsaṃ kārāpetvā suttantaṃ vā
abhidhammaṃ vā pucchati, āpatti pācittiyassa. abhidhamme okāsaṃ
kārāpetvā suttantaṃ vā vinayaṃ vā pucchati, āpatti pācittiyassa.

Vin I 140ff.:
abhiññātaṃ vā suttantaṃ bhaṇati. so ce bhikkhūnaṃ santike dūtaṃ
pahiṇeyya — āgacchantu bhadantā, imaṃ suttantaṃ pariyāpuṇissanti,
purāyaṃ suttanto na palujjatī ti. (twice)
Vin I 169:
idha pana, bhikkhave, aññatarasmiṃ āvāse tadahu pavāraṇāya bhikkhūhi
dhammaṃ bhaṇantehi … pe … suttantikehi suttantaṃ saṅgāyantehi …
vinayadharehi vinayaṃ vinicchinantehi … dhammakathikehi dhammaṃ
sākacchantehi …
Vin II 161:
ekacce bhikkhū evam āhaṃsu — “yo, bhagavā, suttantiko so arahati
aggāsanaṃ aggodakaṃ aggapiṇḍan” ti. ekacce bhikkhū evam āhaṃsu — “yo,
bhagavā, vinayadharo so arahati aggāsanaṃ aggodakaṃ aggapiṇḍan” ti.
ekacce bhikkhū evam āhaṃsu — “yo, bhagavā, dhammakathiko so arahati
aggāsanaṃ aggodakaṃ aggapiṇḍan” ti.

2. On the four mahāpadesa, this is effectively a commentary on ayaṃ
dhammo ayaṃ vinayo idaṃ satthusāsanaṃ. But that is a Vinaya expression.
See Vin II 73 etc. So we should expect that sutte and vinaye correspond
to dhammo and vinayo. [And dhammatāyaṃ to satthusāsanaṃ if that is
read.] One could suppose that the Vinaya uses the pair dhamma & vinaya
here precisely to avoid the ambiguity of sutta.

Lance
> Lance and Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,
>
> A few notes on sutta and suttanta:
>
> The occurrences of suttanta in the texts of the Pali canon are limited,
> which would indicate that this usage was not particularly well established
> The few examples I have been able to trace occur in S and A, which is
> interesting in itself. However, suttanta appears frequently throughout the
> Kathaavatthu. There are more than 200 examples accompanied by canonical
> quotations. There are no examples in Kv where sutta is used to denote the
> canonical texts. In fact, it does not occur at all in Kv. At some point the
> distiction between sutta and suttanta may no longer have been of any concern
> as appears from Pe.t and Nett as well as the commentaries. The semantics of
> anta is not clear. Cf. ,for instance, the use of kamma and kammanta.
>
> The term sutta is recorded in the cpd. suttaagata in Paac. 73, Vin IV 144
> and is interpreted as sutte = Paatimokkhe aagata in Ka.nkhaavititara.nii.
>
> I assume that the reason why sutta is mentioned first in the old list of
> canonical lit. (in M III 104 it stops after veyyakara.na)is that it differed
> from the other texts because it was important for ritual purposes and
> because it was a real suutra of the kind we find in Sanskrit literature. The
> few short suttas included in Paatimokkha are probably reflexes of this
> particular style like, for instance, the use of the locative to denote the
> nimitta of an action. The general form is "for x (loc.) y" (also found in
> Sanskrit suutras). However, the suttas were evidently re-written as appears
> from the fact that some of them contain not fully integrated traces of the
> old formulation.
>
> Ole

#2512
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Oct 8, 2008 2:59 am 
Subject: SV: SV: what does sutta denote? 

    Lance and Bhikkhu Nyanatusita:

The mahaapadesa passage mentions a list of learned monks who are
dhammadharas, vinayadharas and maatikaadharas. The commentators appear to
agree on the denotation of the last two: Vinaya denotes the Vinaya and
maatikaa the two Paatimokkhas, which reflects a well-established tradition.
The contrast between the two corresponds in all likelihood to that between
Vinaye and Sutte of the mahaapadesa passage. But what about Dhammadhara ? It
is tempting to take it as referring to the dhamma of the suttantas. But
dhammadhara itself an ambiguous term. Commentators gloss dhamma in the
plural dhammaanam: dhara (keeper) of the rules ?

Ole 

#2513
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Oct 8, 2008 6:27 am 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: what does sutta denote?

    Ole,

I think the expression mātikādhara- is found in the Canon only in the set:
bahussutā āgatāgamā dhammadharā vinayadharā mātikādharā
This is not found in the Saṃyutta- and Khuddaka-, but it is in the
Vinaya as well as in the Dīgha-, Majjhima- and Aṅguttara-.

Buddhaghosa does indeed explain mātikādhara in terms of the two
Pātimokkha, but it seems to be only Buddhaghosa who does so and only in
the Aṅguttara commentary:

Mp II 189:
__bahussutā_ ti ekanikāyādivasena bahu buddhavacanaṃ sutaṃ etesan ti
bahussutā. __āgatāgamā_ ti eko nikāyo eko āgamo nāma, dve nikāyā dve
āgamā nāma, pañca nikāyā pañca āgamā nāma, etesu āgamesu yesaṃ eko pi
āgamo āgato paguṇo pavattito, te āgatāgamā nāma. __dhammadharā_ ti
suttantapiṭakadharā. __vinayadharā_ ti vinayapiṭakadharā. __mātikādharā_
ti dvemātikādharā.


Mp III 382:
__āgatāgamā_ ti dīghādīsu yo koci āgamo āgato etesan ti āgatāgamā.
__dhammadharā_ ti suttantapiṭakadharā. __vinayadharā_ ti
vinayapiṭakadharā. __mātikādharā_ ti dvepātimokkhadharā.

Dhammapāla the ṭīkākāra interprets it as referring to the mātikās in all
three piṭakas:

Vism-mhṭ:
suttageyyādi bahu sutaṃ etesan ti __bahussutā_. vācuggatakaraṇena,
sammad eva garūnaṃ santike āgamitabhāvena ca āgato
pariyattidhammasaṅkhāto āgamo etesan ti __āgatāgamā_.
suttābhidhammasaṅkhātassa dhammassa dhāraṇena __dhammadharā_. vinayassa
dhāraṇena __vinayadharā_. tesaṃ yeva dhammavinayānaṃ mātikāya
dhāraṇena __mātikādharā_.

Sāriputta also, even when commenting on Mp, rejects the position of
Buddhaghosa and suggests that it is more fitting to interpret it as both
the mātikā of the Vinaya and that of the Abhidhamma:

Mp-ṭ to Mp II 189:
  diṭṭhadhammikasamparāyikaparamatthabhedañhi yena sutena ijjhati, taṃ
sutaṃ nāma. ukkaṭṭhaniddesena dassento __ “ekanikāya … pe … bahussutā” _
ti āha. __āgato_ ti suppavattibhāvena svāgato. tenāha __ “paguṇo
pavattito” _ti. abhidhamme āgatā kusalādikkhandhādibhedabhinnā dhammā
suttantapiṭake pi otarantī ti __ “dhammadharā ti suttantapiṭakadharā”
_icceva vuttaṃ. na hi ābhidhammikabhāvena \Ne II 83] vinā nippariyāyato
suttantapiṭakaññutā sambhavati. __dvemātikādharā_ ti
bhikkhubhikkhunimātikāvasena dvemātikādharā ti vadanti,
“vinayābhidhammamātikādharā” ti yuttaṃ.

and elsewhere he follows Vism-mhṭ closely.

As you know, various scholars have argued that mātikā in this context
represents a kind of proto-Abhidhamma. I don't see this as exclusive.
Rather, I think Dhammapāla is essentially right. What is meant is any
kind of mātikā i.e. (sets of) keywords. So both the Pātimokkha and the
kind of material that develops into the mātikā lists of Paṭis and the
Abhidhamma works can be included.

We should probably see dhammadhara in terms of the shorter sequence
bahussuta- dhammadhara-. This is found in a wider range of texts,
including a number of the older verse texts (but not in the Majjhima-).
I can't find the commentarial gloss in the plural that you mention,
unless you mean Mp III 7:
__dhammadharan_ ti sutadhammānaṃ ādhārabhūtaṃ.
But I would have thought that it means 'teachings' here.

Lance


> The mahaapadesa passage mentions a list of learned monks who are
> dhammadharas, vinayadharas and maatikaadharas. The commentators appear to
> agree on the denotation of the last two: Vinaya denotes the Vinaya and
> maatikaa the two Paatimokkhas, which reflects a well-established tradition.
> The contrast between the two corresponds in all likelihood to that between
> Vinaye and Sutte of the mahaapadesa passage. But what about Dhammadhara ? It
> is tempting to take it as referring to the dhamma of the suttantas. But
> dhammadhara itself an ambiguous term. Commentators gloss dhamma in the
> plural dhammaanam: dhara (keeper) of the rules ?
>
> Ole
> 

#2514
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:38 am 
Subject: SV: SV: SV: what does sutta denote? 

    Lance,

It is remarkable that the term maatikaa only occurs in a compound at the end
of a list of words describing bhikkhus as accomplished scholars. I wonder
why. I originally thought that the fact that it is found right after
vinayadhara would indicate that they belong together. Besides, the use of
maatikaa and its compounds in the commentaries refer almost all of them to
the paatimokkha. But there are other interesting occurrences that would
indicate that maatikaa has a wider scope than one would assume. For instance
As p.4 quotes the first paragraph of Kathaavatthu as maatikaa. The term
evidently is in need of a thorough lexicographical investigation like
maatikaa.thapana/t.hapitamaatika, for instance.

Ole 

#2515
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 12, 2008 12:57 pm 
Subject: A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] 

    Dear Listers,

A I 1:
7. ‘‘Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekasaddampi samanupassāmi yaṃ evaṃ itthiyā cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhati yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, purisasaddo. Purisasaddo, bhikkhave, itthiyā cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhatī’’ti. Sattamaṃ. (from CST4)

On another list, Tzungkuen asks why the relative pronoun 'yaṃ' is not 'yo'
in the above sutta. I do not know the answer. Can 'yaṃ' as a nominative
neuter be the subject of 'tiṭṭhati' in the first sentence? The
Aṭṭhakathā has the following comment on 'yaṃ evaṃ purisassa cittaṃ
pariyādāya tiṭṭhati' in the first sutta of the same vagga:

Mp I 19:
Yaṃ evaṃ purisassa cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhatīti yaṃ rūpaṃ rūpagarukassa purisassa catubhūmakakusalacittaṃ pariyādiyitvā gaṇhitvā khepetvā tiṭṭhati. (from CST4)

From this, I take it that 'yaṃ' in 'yaṃ evaṃ' qualifies rūpaṃ and is
therefore a relative pronoun in the nominative and the subject of tiṭṭhati.
But the problem with yaṃ in the seventh sutta is that one would expect a
'yo' (qualifying 'saddo' like 'yaṃ rūpaṃ'). One explanation could be that
'yaṃ' is accusative masculine and in agreement with 'ekasaddaṃ' and somehow
(I don't know how) the following 'evaṃ' makes it possible for it to function
also as the subject of 'tiṭṭhati'. Another possibility is that if 'yaṃ' is
the correlative of 'idaṃ' in 'yathayidaṃ' (yathaa idaṃ = like this) it
also has to be nominative neuter and read it as 'yo saddo'.

So, is 'yaṃ' a nominative neuter, an accusative neuter, an accusative
masculine, or something else?

Best wishes,
Jim 

#2516
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:57 am 
Subject: SV: A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] 

    Jim,

Yathayidam is used as a particle in the sense "such as" or "like" etc. There
are quite a few exmples of this usage in the canon.

Ole 

#2517
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:32 pm 
Subject: Re: A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] 

    Dear Ole,

I'm not absolutely sure if 'yathayida.m' is a particle. The commentarial
gloss 'yathaa ida.m' also suggests two separate words, uncompounded.
Looking at other similar glosses I came across a few that had 'yathaa ime'
which shows that 'ida.m' can also stand for the plural and presumably
differences in gender too. A gloss on 'nayida.m' at Ps-p.t I 203 (Be)
explicitly states that the 'ida.m' in a similar phrasing is a particle:
"nayidanti ettha idanti nipaatamatta.m." Perhaps the 'ya.m' in 'ya.m eva.m'
can be construed as a particle like 'ida.m' and be read as 'yo'.

I remember the discussion we had here last year on 'ta.myathaa' as well as
'seyyathaa' and 'seyyathiida.m'.

Jim

> Jim,
>
> Yathayidam is used as a particle in the sense "such as" or "like" etc.
> There are quite a few exmples of this usage in the canon.
>
> Ole 

#2518
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.plus.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:43 pm 
Subject: "New mat / bed" 
  
    Dear All,

This is not specifically Pali in content, but I wonder if anybody could
help.  I am working on a text, originally Sanskrit  (earlier Prakrit), but
now sadly only available in Chinese and Tibetan.  On at least three
occasions it refers to a monk sitting upon a "new mat / bed" -- often when
speaking of persons supposedly advanced in abilities.  Could this have any
particular significance -- if not I am wondering if it could be a faulty
Sanskritization for something else.  I would be glad to read any ideas about
this.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge 

#2519
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:00 am 
Subject: SV: A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] 

    Dear Jim,

If we take a look at the occurrences of yathayida.m there are many passages
that cannot be construed grammatically if we assume that ida.m has to be in
agreement with a possible noun. ida.m is no doubt used adverbially as
suggested in CPD s.v. ayam, as is also the case with nayida.m. I would
suggest that yathayida.m is < yathaa + onglide /y/ before /i/ of ida.m used
adverbially.

Ole

<Looking at other similar glosses I came across a few that had 'yathaa ime'
which shows that 'ida.m' can also stand for the plural and presumably
differences in gender too>

These, I believe, are examples of commentarial ingenuity.

<A gloss on 'nayida.m' at Ps-p.t I 203 (Be) explicitly states that the
'ida.m' in a similar phrasing is a particle:
"nayidanti ettha idanti nipaatamatta.m."

This is a good example of a correct analysis. Think of similar examples like
eka.m idaaha.m etc. 

#2520
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:36 am 
Subject: ya.m 

    Dear Pali readers,

ya.m is used in the Pali canon as a temporal conjunction in the sense of
"when". There is reason to mention two particular constructions with ya.m,
one with samayo + ya.m and the other with kaalo + ya.m. Examples with kaalo
+ ya.m are particularly interesting because ya.m is invariably constructed
with a finite verb in the potential, in contrast to samayo + ya.m that is
only recorded without the potential. The use with a finite verb in the
potential reflects a rule in Panini�s Sanskrit grammar III.3.167-68, which
stipulates that samaya and kaala are constructed with the potential if the
verb is preceded by yad. In the language of the Pali canon yad becomes ya.m
as Pali disallows final consonants except /.m/.

Ole Holten Pind

#2521
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:01 pm 
Subject: Re: A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] 

    Jim,

I think that yaṃ here is a conjunction corresponding to the Sanskrit use
of yat in the sense of 'that'.

So I would render:
I do not see another single sound that so grips and abides in the mind
of a woman i.e. the sound of a man.

Lance

Jim Anderson wrote:
> Dear Listers,
>
> A I 1:
> 7. ‘‘Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekasaddampi samanupassāmi yaṃ
> evaṃ itthiyā cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhati yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, purisasaddo.
> Purisasaddo, bhikkhave, itthiyā cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhatī’’ti. Sattamaṃ. 
> (from CST4)
>
[...]

#2522
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:02 pm 
Subject: Re: "New mat / bed" 

    Stephen,

All I can come up with is navaṃ (nisīdana-)santhataṃ in Vinaya texts.
But I can't see any particular significance.

Lance

> Dear All,
>
> This is not specifically Pali in content, but I wonder if anybody could
> help.  I am working on a text, originally Sanskrit  (earlier Prakrit), but
> now sadly only available in Chinese and Tibetan.  On at least three
> occasions it refers to a monk sitting upon a "new mat / bed" -- often when
> speaking of persons supposedly advanced in abilities.  Could this have any
> particular significance -- if not I am wondering if it could be a faulty
> Sanskritization for something else.  I would be glad to read any ideas about
> this.
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge
> 

#2523
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.plus.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:31 pm 
Subject: Re: "New mat / bed" 

    Dear Lance,

Thanks for your reply.  If there is no special significance per se known to
you, then contextually I suppose it is being used scathingly of worldly
monks who doing all right for themselves -- attracting patrons and so forth
through their display of fake accomplishments.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

----- Original Message -----
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] "New mat / bed"


> Stephen,
>
> All I can come up with is navaṃ (nisīdana-)santhataṃ in Vinaya texts.
> But I can't see any particular significance.
>
> Lance
>
[...]

#2524
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:21 am 
Subject: Re: A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] 

    Dear Lance,

Thanks! Your use of yaṃ seem to correspond to the following s.v. 1 yad in
MW:

"yad as an adv. conjunction generally = `" that "' , esp. after verbs of
saying , thinking &c. , often introducing an oratio directa with or without
iti ; " (from the Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon)

Your translation reads well and I have been considering the possibly of yaṃ
being an indeclinable. In the sentence:

"Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekasaddampi samanupassāmi yaṃ evaṃ itthiyā
cittaṃ pariyādāya tiṭṭhati yathayidaṃ, bhikkhave, purisasaddo."

"Nāhaṃ, bhikkhave, aññaṃ ekasaddampi samanupassāmi" is the main clause
and the remaining part introduced by yaṃ is the subordinate clause.

Jim

Lance wrote:
> I think that yaṃ here is a conjunction corresponding to the Sanskrit use
> of yat in the sense of 'that'.
>
> So I would render:
> I do not see another single sound that so grips and abides in the mind
> of a woman i.e. the sound of a man. 

#2525
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:38 am 
Subject: Saddaniiti discussions 

    Dear Members,

Some members here who are not already members of Yong Peng's Pali Collective
discussion group may be interested in following (and contributing to) the
discussions of the Saddaniiti grammar text which is just getting started.
You can read the recent posts at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/messages

The subject line doesn't yet reflect the Saddaniiti topic that was first
introduced by Nina van Gorkom, one of our members, on Dec. 14 which has
since generated a surprisng amount of interest. That mailing list has a 1000
members more than this one which has only 45 members. I think Yong Peng
intends to set it up as a long-term study project for the group.

The Saddaniiti has occasionally come up for discussion in our palistudy
group over the years and is still very much on-topic here. I have a question
about the first verse at the beginning of the Padamaalaa:

dhiirehi magganaayena, yena buddhena desita.m.
sita.m dhammamidha~n~naaya, ~naayate amata.m pada.m..

What is the meaning of "sita.m" in this verse? I think "dhiirehi" (instr.
pl.) is the agent of the passive verb "~naayate" (is known by the
wise) and "amata.m pada.m" (in the nom. case) is the object. "magganaayena,
yena buddhena desita.m. sita.m dhammamidha~n~naaya," is a subordinate clause
with dhiirehi also serving as the agent of the absolutive "a~n~naaya" (after
having understood) with "dhamma" as the object (in the acc.). I take
magganaayena as equivalent to magganaayakena (path-leader/guide), I also
wonder if the "yena" is a correlative of "ta.m" at the beginning of the next
verse:

ta.m namitvaa mahaaviira.m, sabba~n~nu.m lokanaayaka.m.
mahaakaaru.nika.m se.t.tha.m, visuddha.m suddhidaayaka.m..

Best wishes,
Jim 

<end>
======================================================
INDICES

I.
Subject-lines listed by date for 2008
[note: original poster and message numbers are within square brackets] 

January 2008
01 Be warned: Thai film: "The Life of Buddha" [Eisel Mazard] [2321]
03 A visit to Ban Chiang, UNESCO-approved historic site [Eisel Mazard] [2322]
04 A Brief Report with an Index of Subject-lines for 2007 [Jim Anderson] [2323-4, 2332-6=7]
06 Online version of A Critical Pali Dictionary [O.H. Pind] [2325-30=6]
17 Bangkok conference (re: Pali & MS): June 4th [Eisel Mazard] [2331]
29 eBooks from Myanmar [Jim Anderson] [2337-40=4]

February 2008
03 Things Pali in Bangkok, 2008 [Eisel Mazard] [2341-3=3]
09 Meeting with Ven. Ashin Thitzana [Jim Anderson] [2344]
14 compounds in -guu [O.H. Pind] [2345, 2347, 2351, 2157-8=5]
     U Thitzana's notes on Kacc 10 [Jim Anderson] [2346]
16 New version of CSCD [Bh. Nyanatusita] [2348-50=3]
26 Thesis entitled 'The Chronology of the Pali Canon: the case of the aorist [Eisel Mazard] [2352, 2354=2]
27 Website update; De Silva, etc. [Eisel Mazard] [2353]
     Candragomin's grammar [Jim Anderson] [2355]

March 2008
02 Sanskrit (& Pali?) inscriptions in Yunnan [Eisel Mazard] [2356]
04 words ending in guu, once more [O.H. Pind] [2359-62=4]
08 Abhidhanapadipika Study [Bh. Nyanatusita] [2363-5=3]
12 Yunnan inscriptions "must have" article = 1947? [Eisel Mazard] [2366-7=2]
16 vandite [O.H. Pind] [2368-9,2371-3=5]
     Yunnan Update, Pali MS, inscriptions, etc. [Eisel Mazard] [2370]
19 Dhp 1 & 2, according to Dr. Skilling [Eisel Mazard] [2374]
24 introducing a new member [Jim Anderson] [2375-8=4]
26 just the photo [Susanne Goetz] [2379]
    First message, now without attachment [Susanne Goetz] [2380-1=2]
    An interview with Pali scholar Peter Masefield [Eisel Mazard] [2382]
    German thesis uploaded already [Susanne Goetz] [2383]
    Sinhalese mss. [Mark Allon] [2384-5, 2391=3]
27 Search for Buddhadasa's critizism on Thai language [Susanne Goetz] [2386-7=2]
31 Semantics of /ud-/ vs/ /u.d.d.-/ [Eisel Mazard] [2388-90=3]

April 2008
02 Wanted: Sk. commentaries to Jaina literature [Susanne Goetz] [2392]
04 suva.n.nanaavaa (gold vessel) [Jim Anderson] [2393]

May 2008
02 A list of Pali grammatical works' titles... in Chinese? [Eisel Mazard] [2394]
04 Recent discoveries of Pali MS from Afghanistan [Eisel Mazard] [2395-9=5]
09 Meanwhile, in ancient Bactria & Kushana... [Eisel Mazard] [2400]
17 Omission in the Visuddhimagga Pali? [Bh. Nyanatusita] [2401-2, 2404-6=5]
     german site [Nina van Gorkom] [2303]
20 Vism [O.H. Pind] [2407-8=2]
21 Vism passage [O.H. Pind] [2409]
23 Ariyaka Pali Manuscripts, missives, etc.  [Eisel Mazard] [2410, 2413-4, 2416-8=6]
24 New file uploaded to palistudy [Susanne Goetz] [2411-2=2]
25 Suphaphan: File uploaded! [Susanne Goetz] [2415]

July 2008
29 A Pali anecdote; the false etymology of Isigiri / -gili [Eisel Mazard] [2419] 

August 2008
05 "semantic" etymology and my dream [Susanne Goetz] [2420-1=2]
     Canda-saarattha-.tiikaa [Bh. Nyanatusita] [2422]
     canda [O.H. Pind] [2423-5=3]
06 Magadhisms in the Pali canon [O.H. Pind] [2426]
10 The problem with "Sakka" in Lao Buddhism [Eisel Mazard] [2427-8=2]
     Scholarly appraisal of the Indian edition? [Eisel Mazard] [2429-3=5]
13 The Thai edition of Tipitaka (*SIGH*) [Eisel Mazard] [2434]
14 E.J. Brill takes on Indo-European Etymology, Asian fonts (no, I'm not kidding) [Eisel Mazard] [2435]
18 The Mon edition of the Pali canon (AGAIN!) [Eisel Mazard] [2436]
22 Pali in print: a review covering 1870 to 1959 [Eisel Mazard] [2437]
24 Trans. & Philosophy of SN-1:18:5 [Ko.t.thita Sutta] [Eisel Mazard] [2438-56, 2458, 2460-1, 2466-7, 2472-3, 2475=27]
27 S IV 163 [O.H. Pind] [2457, 2459, 2474, 2476-82, 2486-8, 2490=14]
29 Pali composition [Bh. Nyanatusita] [2462-4, 2469-71, 2483, 2494=8]
     Recent Pali compositions in Burma [Bh. Pandita] [2465, 2468, 2484=3]
30 from the moderator --- concerning Eisel [Jim Anderson] [2485, 2493, 2495-6=4]
31 ida.m [O.H. Pind] [2489, 2491=2]
     TimesPTSA  [rahula_80] [2492]

September 2008
21 Dhp-a III 128 [O.H. Pind] [2497-98=2]

October 2008
03 what does sutta denote? [O.H. Pind] [2499-2514=16]
12 A I 1 (ya.m eva.m] [Jim Anderson] [2515-17, 2519, 2521, 2524=6]
13 "New mat / bed" [Stephen Hodge] [2518, 2522-23=4]
14 ya.m [O.H. Pind] [2520]

December 2008
23 Saddaniiti discussions [Jim Anderson] [2525]

II.
New subject lines initiated by:
E. Mazard 24
O.H. Pind 13
J. Anderson 10
Susanne Goetz 8
Nyanatusita Bhikkhu 5
Bh. Pandita 1
Mark Allon 1
Nina van Gorkom 1
Ngawang Dorje 1
Stephen Hodge 1
Total of 65 subject lines

III.
No. of posts per contributing member:
63	Eisel Mazard
43	Jim Anderson
30	Ole Holten Pind
23	L.S. Cousins
16	Nyanatusita Bhikkhu
10	Susanne Goetz
8	Mark Allon
3	Justin McDaniel
2	Connie Parker
2	Stephen Hodge
1	George Bedell
1	Num Sitdhiraksa
1	Nina van Gorkom
1	Ngawang Dorje
1	Tzung Kuen Wen (Khemaramsi)
Total of  205 messages posted for the year 2008

====================================