[psgy07.txt Year 2007: Messages 2109-2320; January 13 - December 29, 2007 (212 messages minus one deletion: #2134). Yahoo! advertisements and notices contained in the original messages have been removed. Also, some messages containing a previous message repeated in its entirety have been trimmed.

A chronological index of 59 subject-lines has been included at the bottom of this document along with some statistics.

Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages

Prepared by Jim Anderson, Jan. 4, 2008]

#2109
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:41 am 
Subject: EM's 2007 "edition" of Narada Thera's textbook

I've completed a new "edition" of Narada's Pali textbook --it will be
available on the internet as a free download soon (but, apparently,
not quite yet).

You can write to me off-list if you'd like me to send it to you directly.

The new version is (still) a Unicode PDF (no special fonts required!)
--and has many, many, many corrections over the earlier version(s) and
printed edition(s).

Aesthetically, there are also some improvements (tables, italics,
etc.) --but it remains a fairly utilitarian document --fully
Romanized.

The new glossary, however, provides both classical Burmese and
classical Sinhalese script for all of the vocabulary --along with
romanization and definitions, of course.

E.M.

#2110 
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:05 am 
Subject: Re: EM's 2007 "edition" of Narada Thera's textbook

Dear Eisel,

Thanks. How are you doing? Ken and Visakha told me that you are back in Laos
and found a new job. What are you doing?

Do you mind if we put your Narada PDF file on the BPS website? In this way
it will get a wider distribution. How far did you get with Duroiselle? We
could also upload that.

I'm quite busy with the BPS these days. If  I don't oversee things
everything goes wrong.

Can you send me the email address of the Sinhalese monk in Cambodia. The BPS
would like to publish a book on the history of Buddhism in Cambodia.

Regards,
                      Bhikkhu Nyanatusita


On 13/01/07, Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   I've completed a new "edition" of Narada's Pali textbook --it will be
> available on the internet as a free download soon (but, apparently,
> not quite yet).
>
> You can write to me off-list if you'd like me to send it to you directly.
>
> The new version is (still) a Unicode PDF (no special fonts required!)
> --and has many, many, many corrections over the earlier version(s) and
> printed edition(s).
>
> Aesthetically, there are also some improvements (tables, italics,
> etc.) --but it remains a fairly utilitarian document --fully
> Romanized.
>
> The new glossary, however, provides both classical Burmese and
> classical Sinhalese script for all of the vocabulary --along with
> romanization and definitions, of course.
>
> E.M.
>
>



--
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Forest Hermitage
Udawattakele
PO Box 61
Kandy
Sri Lanka

#2111 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:12 am 
Subject: Re: EM's 2007 "edition" of Narada Thera's textbook

Bhante,

   It would probably be better if the BPS website just provided a link
to these two websites:

http://www.pratyeka.org/duroiselle/
http://www.pratyeka.org/narada/

   The only disadvantage is that I rely on a friend in China to update
my website ... and currently (today) the *new* version of Narada's
textbook is not yet on that page for download.  Hopefully it will be
soon.

   BTW: I only left Laos for a series of meetings in Cambodia (perhaps
10 days).  I have now been living and working in Laos for fully two
years --not including the time that I spent in Sri Lanka, with you.

E.M.

#2112 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:23 am 
Subject: EM's Pali website update, very brief further note

The main page of my website has already been updated (viz.,
www.pali.pratyeka.org) --technical difficulties are delaying the
update of the sub-page dedicated to downloading the new version of the
textbook (viz., http://www.pratyeka.org/narada/) but I am hoping that
this will be solved in a number of hours, rather than a number of days
(... or weeks).

In any case, very, very soon, the new version of the textbook will be
available for direct download from:

http://www.pratyeka.org/narada/

And, as I say, there is already new text at

www.pali.pratyeka.org

Including the new chart on "Concepts of Time" (which is quite a bit of
fun, actually):

http://pali.pratyeka.org/ConceptsOfTime2.pdf
http://pali.pratyeka.org/#Five

E.M.

#2113 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:18 pm 
Subject: EM: Gone to Bokeo

I've accepted a one-year position assisting a humanitarian agency in
several very small, very remote villages in Bokeo province.

The agency is a Belgian-funded "food security" NGO, which is to say
that they help people who have been starving and/or malnourished in
the recent past durably cease to be starving and/or malnourished.

This seems to primarily entail digging trenches for irrigation, and
assistance in diversifying their crops and diet.

My own role will be quite marginal, serving as the only
westerner/outsider at the remote "field stations", and assisting the
Lao staff in gaining some competence in reading English.

The job will also involve long days, and long months, isolated in a
small room in the middle of the semi-tropical mountain forests, with
nothing to do but study languages --living and dead.

This should provide me with an excellent opportunity to become fluent
in Lao (among other vernaculars: there are five minority languages
spoken in the district concerned) --but it will also provide me with
an excellent opportunity to conduct some focussed research on Pali.

When I arrive in Bokeo (next month), I will only have access to the
internet about once a month, when I visit the relatively large town of
Huay-Xai; there will be no communications of any kind at the "field
station" described.

There are some serious drawbacks to the assignment, such as malaria
and the need to forage for firewood, however, I do think it will be an
excellent opportunity --both for me to develop my vernacular abilities
and to advance my researches in Pali.

The opportunity will also exist to gain (at least) a phrasebook level
ability in Akha, Lahu, Tai Le, Hmong, and two Austroasiatic/Mon-Khmer
languages.

E.M.

#2114 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:00 am 
Subject: New (2007) Narada textbook finally ready for download

The sub-page with the new version of Narada's textbook is finally "up
and running".

http://www.pratyeka.org/narada/

You'll notice the new graphic, etc., which now matches the style of
the main page (www.pali.pratyeka.org).

As I've already mentioned, the revisions, corrections, and graphical
improvements make this a MUCH better book than the one I started with
three years ago.

And, of course, the glossary is now a bit more fun, with both old
Sinhalese and classical Burmese script.

E.M.

#2115 
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:52 pm 
Subject: Re: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary

Dear all,

The new book Abhidhaanapradiipikaa : A study of The Text and Its
Commentary by Bhikkhu Medagama Nandawansa was mentioned in an earlier
posting. I have emailed BORI several times, but to no avail. Can someone
suggest another method of getting this book?

Regards
Mark

Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
MacCallum Brennan Building A18
University of Sydney
Sydney NSW 2006, Australia

#2116 
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:49 am 
Subject: Re: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary

Mark Allon,

The book can be ordered through Motilal Banarsidass' online store.  The
publication date is 2000, and the list price is INR 1200; I paid USD 44
(including shipping to Thailand).  Be prepared to wait two or three
months, since BORI only prints it on demand.

George Bedell

--- Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> The new book Abhidhaanapradiipikaa : A study of The Text and Its
> Commentary by Bhikkhu Medagama Nandawansa was mentioned in an earlier
>
> posting. I have emailed BORI several times, but to no avail. Can
> someone
> suggest another method of getting this book?
>
> Regards
> Mark
>
> Dr Mark Allon
> Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
> MacCallum Brennan Building A18
> University of Sydney
> Sydney NSW 2006, Australia
>
>


*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp
Skype user name: gandmbedell

#2117 
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:20 am 
Subject: Re: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary

Dear George,

Thanks for the information.

Regards
Mark



George Bedell wrote:

> Mark Allon,
>
> The book can be ordered through Motilal Banarsidass' online store. The
> publication date is 2000, and the list price is INR 1200; I paid USD 44
> (including shipping to Thailand). Be prepared to wait two or three
> months, since BORI only prints it on demand.
>
> George Bedell

#2118 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:51 am 
Subject: Survey of Thai-Pali literature, 1969

I really don't know if the following source is as obsure as it looks,
or if it is already well known, however:

There is a PhD thesis from Magadh University by Likhit Likhitanonta,
1969, entitled _The Pali Literature of Thailand_ --which openly
declares itself as trying to do for Thailand what Mabel Bode did for
Burma (viz., give a comprehensive survey of the Pali works originating
/ authored there).

As with many PhD theses, the first few hundred pages can easily be ignored.

The non-fiction begins on page 256 --with most of what antecedes this
having rather too much of a mix of fanciful propaganda and overly
broad generalizations (such as most of us on the mainland have become
familiar with in what is called history).

The remainder of the text may be exceedingly useful for some
--however, it is in dire need of new typesetting.

I found, however, that in contrast to Mabel Bode (or: Hinuber), the
author uses words of praise (such as "masterpiece") rather liberally.

I'm sure that White Lotus Press could easily "knock off" an edition of
this --it would greatly benefit from modern conventions such as simple
italics and providing both Pali and Thai titles, etc. etc. (I was
looking at a photocopy from a microfilm, I surmise; barely legible).

It also contains a few ordered lists as appendixes, such as a list of
all the Thai works on Pali grammar, etc.

E.M.

#2119 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:25 am 
Subject: SV: Survey of Thai-Pali literature, 1969 

Dear E.M,

Thanks for this very useful information.

With best wishes,
O.H.P.

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 19. marts 2007 10:51
Til: Bhante Nyanatusita; palistudy@yahoogroups.com; Diethard Ande; David
Wharton; Dr. Justin McDaniel
Emne: [palistudy] Survey of Thai-Pali literature, 1969



I really don't know if the following source is as obsure as it looks,
or if it is already well known, however:

There is a PhD thesis from Magadh University by Likhit Likhitanonta,
1969, entitled _The Pali Literature of Thailand_ --which openly
declares itself as trying to do for Thailand what Mabel Bode did for
Burma (viz., give a comprehensive survey of the Pali works originating
/ authored there).

#2120 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:07 am 
Subject: Phayao Pali Study Centre (!)

Less than 20 km outside of Phayao (Northern Thailand) there is a new,
fairly large scale Pali study centre.

Its name is (roughly) the International Centre for Tipitaka Study and Research.

I saw the building today --which is now complete, but empty.

The desolate building, in the midst of a deforested and dessicated
landscape, seemed to sum up the current state of Pali studies in
Thailand fairly well.  However, I choose to regard even this empty
husk of an institution with some degree of optimism.

The centre is apparently operated and owned by Maha-Chulalongkorn
University (which has campuses all over Thailand ... but not in
Phayao) --which is significant to note if you're trying to find the
place.  It is not part of the campus of any of the other Universities
that are operating in Phayao --such as Naresuan, which has a campus
nearby (much to everyone's confusion).

You have to turn down an obscure road leading to an irrigation
reservoir and dam to find the building.

If anyone has information or contacts pertaining to this institution,
please let me know how to get in touch with them.

I would guess that they will be opening within the next year --and, as
I will be living and working in Bokeo for one year, Phayao may indeed
be the nearest major centre of Pali study (given my remote location).

I would be very interested to learn more, if more can be known about
their current activities or future plans.

It may be that they just wanted a seasonal HQ to bring together the
people working on Pali and related fields from the "cloud" of campuses
that Chulalongkorn operates; I think that it would be hard for them to
organize an interdisciplinary meeting even within Bangkok.

E.M.

#2121 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 1:46 pm 
Subject: update 

Dear members,

Greetings to all! I think it's been about 4 months since I last posted
anything to the group.

I put all the archived group messages for 2006 into a zipped file which I
have uploaded to the group's website at ca.geocities.com/palistudy. It can
be downloaded by clicking on the following url:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/psgy06.zip

It contains 478 messages in serial order and the zipped file is 299 KB in
size. I have trimmed off much of what I think is unnecessary such as
advertisements and long repetitions of earlier messages in some top-posted
messages. It is advisable to avoid using unicode characters in the messages
as they often don't display correctly. It would be nice to have some sort of
index of the topics touched upon or discussed during the course of a year
which I might try to prepare sometime. Some group statistics are that we
currently have 43 members including 4 new members who joined us last year.
Below is a frequency list of the number of messages posted for each of the
23 members who contributed:

148 Eisel Mazard
67 Jim Anderson
64 Ole Holten Pind
47 Justin McDaniel
32 Phra Yuttadhammo
30 Nyanatusita Bhikkhu
22 Dhammanando Bhikkhu
13 Rett Thiele
10 George Bedell
6 Ashin Pandita
6 Stephen Hodge
5 Dietrich Christian Lammerts
4 L.S. Cousins
4 Mark Allon
4 Ong Teng Kee
4 Ong Yong Peng
3 Alan McClure
3 Tzung Kuen Wen (Khemaramsi)
2 Nina van Gorkom
1 Tadao Miyamoto
1 Suan Lu Zaw (Abhidhammika)
1 Ngawang Dorje
1 Daniel

Thank-you all for your contributions.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2122 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 5, 2007 11:04 pm 
Subject: birch-bark paper for Pali Mss? 

Dear All,

At this time of year in Canada I often spend part of my day tidying up my
forested lot and cutting up firewood for next fall and winter. This year, I
have to cut down 9 dead trees, 8 of which are white birches (Betula
papyrifera, I think). I've cut down three of these birches so far. The logs
are sawn up into 16" lengths with a 36" bow saw then split with an axe.
Splitting birch has never been easy for me and today I found out why. It's
due to the bark's unusual strength. I learned that one should peel off the
bark before splitting. Now I've got this growing pile of birch bark and I'm
thinking that perhaps I should look into preparing some birch-bark paper for
writing Pali on as an experiment. The inner layers of the bark have a
beautiful reddish-orange colour--a good colour for the bhikkhu's robes.
Haven't the earliest extant Buddhist manuscripts survived on birch-bark?

Although I'm hardly active online these days, I continue to be interested in
Kaccaayana's grammar and have been devoting quite a bit of time to it in the
past few weeks.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2123 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 7, 2007 12:01 am 
Subject: Birch-barch MS (1st century) & Kacc 

Jim,

   I am now making very rapid progress on Kacc., and am resolved to
have my edition (including an English translation) complete in one
year.

   "Up here" ( = nowhere, Bokeo province) I can get a good four to six
hours of work done on Pali each day --much of the rest of the time
being taken up with activities such as splitting firewood, and
generally "coping" with the environs.

   And, I'm delighted to say, the pace of my work is improving
exponentially --i.e., once one adjusts to the EXTREME BREVITY with
which Kacc expresses itself, one can farily quickly read and
understand the verses.

   However, for me, it has taken, perhaps, fully two years for me to
adjust to Kacc's strange, truncated turn of phrase?

   I should also mention that the obscure secondary sources I've
accumulated have been useful in suggesting, e.g., why Kacc uses the
locative and genitive in such strange ways, etc.

   So, my advice is: wait for my edition.  Really, I will be finished
in one year's time, and, if not, my "fail safe" plan is to take three
months off at the end of this "humanitarian assignment" and absolutely
polish off the MS before publication (I may not need as much as three
months, at the current pace).

   See the article below, re: Birch Bark MS

E.M.

A preliminary survey of some early Buddhist manuscripts recently
acquired by the British Library
Richard Salomon
The Journal of the American Oriental Society
Vol.117 No.2 (April-June 1997)
pp.353-358
COPYRIGHT 1997 American Oriental Society

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Introduction; general description of the manuscripts
The Oriental and India Office Collections of the British Library have
recently acquired, with the assistance of an anonymous benefactor, a
substantial collection of early Buddhist texts written on birch-bark
scrolls in the Gandhari or Northwestern Prakrit language and the
Kharosthi script. The original provenance of the manuscripts is not
known, but may be Afghanistan, in view of certain resemblances
(discussed below) to other materials previously found there.

The manuscripts comprise thirteen rolls of birch bark which had been
removed from their original container. According to verbal reports,
they were originally found inside one of a group of five large clay
pots, each bearing a Kharosthi dedicatory inscription, which have also
been acquired by the Library. The bark rolls are extremely fragile
and, in fact, had already been seriously damaged, in that substantial
portions of one vertical edge of most of the manuscripts had been
destroyed. When acquired by the Library, the scrolls were still in
their original rolled-up state, and the exceedingly delicate task of
unrolling them was successfully carried out by the conservation staff
of the British Library. This has now made it possible to prepare
preliminary photographs of the manuscripts, an example which is shown
in figure 1, and to conduct a provisional survey of their contents.

The scrolls proved to consist of birch-bark strips, typically about
five to nine inches in width, on which the texts were written in black
ink. The long scrolls were built up out of shorter strips, apparently
around twelve to eighteen inches long, which were overlapped and glued
together, as shown by blank spaces in several fragments in which the
original strips have separated. The scrolls were reinforced by a
thread sewn along both margins. In a few cases traces of the original
thread are preserved, and in many places the needle holes along the
margins are still visible. Typically, the scribes began writing at the
top of the recto, continued to the bottom of the recto, and then
reversed the scroll both from top to bottom and from front to back and
continued writing from the bottom edge of the verso back to the top of
the scroll. This means that the texts both began and ended at the top
of the scroll, which would be on the outside when it was rolled up
from the bottom. But this is precisely the part of the scroll that is
most subject to wear and tear, especially in the case of a fragile
material like birch bark, which becomes extremely brittle when it
dries out. The unfortunate result is that, but for one fragmentary
exception, we do not have the beginning or end of any scroll, or the
label or colophon that might have accompanied it. Virtually all the
surviving material, in other words, is from the middle and bottom of
the original scrolls. This situation is apparently not due to damage
inflicted since they were recently rediscovered, but probably reflects
their already imperfect condition when they were interred in antiquity
(as discussed in part 2). The surviving sections of the scrolls range
in length from mere fragments of a few lines or even a few letters to
substantial, though still incomplete, portions of complete scrolls.
The longest intact section of a single scroll is about eighty-four
inches long.

For all these reasons, the condition of the manuscripts is only fair
at best, and often much worse than that. All are incomplete, and many
are mere fragments. Moreover, in most cases the delicate surface of
the bark is peeled, faded, discolored, or otherwise damaged, so that
it can be difficult or, not infrequently, nearly impossible to
decipher the texts. Even where the texts are more or less legible,
they contain, almost without exception, frequent and sizable lacunae.

2. Constitution, disposition, and affiliation of the manuscripts

It has already become clear in the course of the preliminary
cataloguing of the manuscripts that the original thirteen rolls do not
all constitute single texts or scrolls. Although some of them do
contain the remnants of a single scroll, several proved to contain
fragments, of widely varying size, of two, three, or even more
originally separate scrolls. In several cases it was also noticed that
separate fragments of the same text, and presumably of the same
original scroll, were found in two or more of the thirteen rolls. And
in at least one case, a scroll was broken in half lengthwise and the
two long narrow halves of the text were placed in different rolls.
This lengthwise splitting of the original scroll probably resulted
from its having been bound by a string or ribbon and left untouched
for a long period in antiquity, with the result that, as the bark
became dry and brittle, the binding cord cut through and divided it in
half.

These peculiarities of the condition and disposition of the texts all
point to the conclusion that these manuscripts were already in
fragmentary or damaged condition in antiquity, before they were
interred in the clay jar in which they were reportedly discovered.
This implies that they were discarded worn-out texts, an impression
which is confirmed by the observation that five of them have secondary
interlinear notations, in hands clearly different from those of the
original scribes, reading likhidago, "[it has been] written,"
likhidago sarva "[it has] all [been] written," and the like (see fig.
2). These interlineations seem to be notations by later copyists who
had rewritten the texts onto new manuscripts and marked the old ones
as "copied," i.e., as ready to be discarded. Such discards were then
rolled up together, apparently more or less at random, placed inside
clay pots, and buried, perhaps in a small stupa within the precincts
of the monastery to which they belonged. Such a practice is attested
by earlier discoveries, such as those at Hadda, in eastern
Afghanistan, where Barthoux (1933: 60) found similar clay pots
containing, in some cases, fragmentary remains of birch-bark
manuscripts, and in others, pieces of human bone. It thus appears that
the relics of venerable monks and of Buddhist texts were conceived and
treated similarly as sacred objects deserving of ritual interment.

What we have in this new collection, in other words, is, in all
likelihood, something roughly analogous to the genizah of Jewish
tradition, that is, a collection of discarded documents for which
religious law or custom required a ritual interment. The source of
these discarded texts was no doubt the library, or perhaps rather the
scriptorium, of a Gandharan Buddhist monastery, probably an
establishment of the Dharmaguptaka sect. This affiliation is indicated
by the inscription on the jar in which the scrolls were reportedly
found, which records its dedication to members of that sect
(dhamauteana parigrahami, "in the possession of the Dharmaguptakas").
Although this sect has hitherto been only very sparsely attested in
the northwest, this and several other recent discoveries, including
several that have not yet been published, of Kharosthi inscriptions
recording donations to the Dharmaguptakas indicate that they were a
major sect in that region, particularly in Afghanistan.

All in all, the preliminary survey revealed that the thirteen original
rolls of manuscript material contained thirty-two separate
"fragments," a fragment being here defined as a piece, of any size, of
an originally separate scroll. However, it was further determined, by
connecting separated fragments on the grounds of similar handwritings
and contents, that these thirty-two "fragments" actually stemmed from
about twenty-two different original scrolls. The number of separate
texts, however, is larger, probably about twenty-six, because some
scrolls contain two, and possibly even more than two, separate and
apparently unrelated texts. In many such cases, it appears that the
first scribe used only the recto, which was apparently the preferred
writing surface, and ended at or near the bottom. Another scribe,
perhaps at a later date seems to have used the empty surface at the
bottom of the recto and the completely blank verso to record another
text.

These figures, at this point, are only provisional, and will almost
certainly have to be adjusted as a result of the more detailed studies
of the manuscripts, but they are sufficiently secure to give a general
idea of the extent of the collection. Although this is presumably only
a small fraction of the total amount of literature in the monastery's
library, it should prove to be enough to give at least a partial view
of the contents of such a library.

3. Identification and classification of the texts

Identification and classification of the texts is still for the most
part at a preliminary stage, and only a few of them have been
positively identified with parallel texts in Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese,
or Tibetan. But the major genres of Buddhist canonical and
paracanonical literature represented by this collection have become
clear, at least in general outline. Most of the texts which are
sufficiently legible to be analyzed in the preliminary survey seem to
fall into the following categories:

1. Didactic or popular poetry, such as a Gandhari version of the
"Rhinoceros' Horn Sutra," a well-known poem otherwise preserved in
Pali as the Khagga-visana-sutta of the Sutta-nipata, and in Sanskrit
incorporated into the Mahavastu (ed. E. Senart, 1.307-9).
2. Avadana texts describing the past lives and karmic background of
various Buddhist personages, for example, a collection of stories
describing the previous incarnations (provayoge = Sanskrit purvayogah)
of Ajnata-kaundinya, Ananda, and the Buddha himself.
3. Canonical sutra texts and commentaries thereon, for instance, a
Gandhari version of the Sangiti-sutra (also extant in Pali, Sanskrit,
and Chinese) with an unidentified commentary.
4. Abhidharma texts, as yet unidentified.
5. Stotra text (only one fragment).
It may seem surprising that no Vinaya material at all has been found
in this substantial body of manuscripts. BUt a similar lacuna has been
noted among the oldest of the Central Asian Sanskrit manuscripts, and
Sander (1991: 141-42) has plausibly hypothesized that the Vinaya texts
were preserved by oral recitation and not normally set down in writing
in early times. It is possible, of course, that the absence of Vinaya
texts among these new manuscripts is merely coincidental, "the luck of
the draw," as it were, but I think it more likely that there were few
if any Vinaya manuscripts in our hypothetical complete monastic
library, for reasons similar to those adduced by Sander.
4. Date of the manuscripts

Certain considerations point to a possible date for the manuscripts as
early as the first half of the first century A.D. The first of these
is a clear reference, though in an uncertain context in a fragmentary
text, to jihonige mahaksatra . . . (see fig. 3). Here a reconstruction
such as mahaksatra(pe*) 'great satrap' is obvious, and there can be
little doubt that the reference is to the Indo-Scythian satrap
Jihonika, who is known from his coins and from the Taxila silver-vase
inscription (Konow 1929:81-82), and who is likely to have ruled around
the fourth decade of the first century A.D. (MacDowall 1973: 229). Of
course, this reference to a contemporary historical figure, which is a
(pleasant) surprise though not completely without parallel in Buddhist
tradition, only establishes that the text in question was originally
composed during or after the reign of Jihonika, but not necessarily
that our actual manuscript was written in or around his time.

But the dedicatory inscription on one of the clay pots associated with
the manuscripts (though not, apparently, the one in which they were
found) also points to a date in the early first century A.D. This
inscription records its donation by a woman named Vasavadatta, the
wife of Susoma or Suhasoma (. . . deyadharme vasavadatae
susomabharyae. . . . svamiasa suhasomasa sammepratyasae . . . bhavatu,
". . . the pious gift of Vasavadatta, wife of Susoma . . . . May it be
for the principal share [of merit] for [her] husband Suhasoma"). Both
of these names match with ones known from other inscriptions datable
to the early first century. Vasavadatta is given as the name of the
sister of the Apraca prince Indravarman in his reliquary inscription
of the Azes year 63 =6 A.D. (Salomon and Schopen 1984: 108-9).
Suhasoma appears as the name of a royal kinsman (anakaena) and
official (asmanakarena) of King Senavarman of Odi in his gold-leaf
inscription (Salomon 1986: 265), which is undated but attributable
from its reference to the Kusana overlord Kujula Kadphises to the
first half of the first century. Of these two names, the second in
particular, Suhasoma, is an unusual one and therefore very likely to
refer to the same person in the two inscriptions where it occurs.

Unfortunately, the chronological significance of this inscription on
jar A is vitiated by the lack of any reliable evidence as to the
archaeological relationship of that jar with the jar (D) in which the
scrolls were found. While there is reason to believe that both may
have come from the same site, and hence may be more or less
contemporary, there is no way to establish this. Other criteria, such
as paleographic and linguistic features, indicate a dating range for
the manuscripts from the beginning of the first century to the first
half of the second century A.D. Thus, although it cannot be proven at
this point, there is some reason to think that they date from the
earlier part of the range, i.e., from the first half of the first
century A.D. The possibility of such a date for this group of relics
has been confirmed, or at least not contradicted, by
thermoluminescence testing of the clay pots, which indicated a dating
range from the first to the eighth centuries A.D., with a 10% margin
of variation and no weighting implications for any period within this
broad span.

5. Relationships to previous discoveries
Though unprecedented, the discovery of a large corpus of Buddhist
texts written on birch-bark scrolls in the Gandhari language and
Kharosthi script is not entirely unexpected. Only one more-or-less
intact manuscript of this type has previously come to light, namely
the "Gandhari Dharmapada," definitively published in Brough 1962,
which was discovered in 1892 near Khotan (now in Xinjiang Autonomous
Region, China). The new manuscripts are broadly similar in form, age,
and contents to the Gandhara Dharmapada, though there are some
significant differences in the details of such features as language,
orthography, and arrangement of the text.

But besides the well-known case of the Gandhari Dharmapada, there have
apparently been several other examples of similar materials found in
Afghanistan and Pakistan, though none of these has ever been properly
published; therefore, they have gone almost entirely unnoticed in
scholarship on the relevant fields. Thus, the early archaeological
explorer of the northwest, Charles Masson (in Wilson 1841: 59-60),
reported that some of the Buddhist reliquaries which he found in
eastern Afghanistan were "accompanied by twists of tuz-leaves,
inscribed internally with characters"; Wilson, in an editor's note (p.
60, n. 1), explained that "it seems likely that what Mr. Masson
denominates 'tuz-leaves' is the inner bark of the Bhurj or birch tree,
which was very commonly used for writing upon." Barthoux, in his
excavations at Hadda (1933:60-61), discovered numerous Kharosthi texts
on birch bark, including some contained in clay pots like the newly
discovered manuscripts. The fate of these manuscripts is described in
his own words: "ces fragments, tres fragiles, etaient deja broyes par
les decombres, et en les retirant, malgre toutes les precautions
prises, l'on achevait de les detruire" (p. 61), and this explains why
these, and probably the other similar discoveries as well, were never
properly published.

6. Implications for the study of Buddhist literature and canons
Mainly on the basis of the evidence of the Gandhari Dharmapada, and
secondarily on the grounds of inscriptional testimony of what seem to
be Gandhari versions of Buddhist texts (Brough 1962: 42) and of
evidence from the Chinese Buddhist tradition, it has been proposed
that there may have existed a Buddhist canon in Gandhari, of which,
until now, only a few fragments have survived. Thus Brough concluded,
with due caution, that "the existence of this [Gandhari] Dharmapada
does imply the existence of a canon of which it formed a part" (p.
43). The new discovery thus confirms what already seemed likely,
namely that the Gandharan Buddhists in the early centuries of the
Christian era did have a substantial corpus of written scriptures in
the Gandhari language, comprising a considerable variety of genres
ranging from didactic poetry to scholastic Abhidharma.

As to the contents, arrangement, and affiliations of this canon, it
would be premature to make anything more than some very partial and
provisional observations. Broadly speaking, it appears to represent
early northern Indian Buddhist teaching and practice; nothing has been
found in the texts to suggest anything like Mahayana doctrinal
developments. This is in accord with the apparent connection of the
scrolls with an establishment of the Dharmaguptakas (see sec. 2), a
non-Mahayana sect generally understood to be affiliated with the
Sarvastivadins.

Some, though by no means all, of the texts have either direct
parallels or partial similarities to portions of the Pali canon or to
Chinese translations of northern Indian Buddhist texts. Of special
interest is an apparent concentration of texts parallel or related to
various parts of the Pali Khuddaka-nikaya, and especially the
Sutta-nipata. These include the aforementioned Gandhari version of the
"Rhinoceros' Horn Sutra" (Khagga-visana-sutta), which appears as the
third sutra in the Pali Sutta-nipata, as well as a commentary on a
sequence of verses, most of which correspond to passages from various
sections of the Sutta-nipata. Another scroll preserves a small
fragment that matches well with the concluding portion of the
Bhiksu-varga of the Gandhari Dharmapada, which in turn closely
resembles the Uraga-sutta, the first sutta of the Pali Sutta-nipata.

This pattern of close association with the Sutta-nipata is of special
interest because the Sutta-nipata generally, and certain parts of it
in particular (including the Khaggavisana-sutta and the Uraga-sutta),
have long been felt by Buddhist scholars to represent one of the
earliest strata of the Pali canon, on the grounds of their numerous
linguistic, stylistic, and doctrinal archaisms. The apparent
concentration of Sutta-nipata-related texts in the new Gandhari corpus
thus is likely not only to confirm the long-standing hypothesis of the
antiquity and importance of this collection, but also to illuminate
its textual history and role in the propagation of early Buddhism.
This, of course, is only one example of the many contributions which
the new documents can be expected to make to the study of Indian
Buddhist textual and doctrinal history.

7. Linguistic and paleographical features
The new documents should also prove to be highly useful for linguistic
and paleographic studies. As might be expected, the various
manuscripts show considerable divergences and inconsistencies in their
renderings of the Gandhari language, reinforcing the impression gained
from the previously known specimens, mostly epigraphical, that the
language was never fully standardized or regularized. However, these
differences, though considerable, are likely to be more on the level
of orthography than of actual dialectal or chronological variation.
Examples of notable orthographic or dialectal peculiarities which were
previously attested only sporadically, if at all, in Gandhari
documents include the replacement, in one set of texts in the same
hand, of g by gh in all cases. We also find in several documents the
use of the subscript pre-consonantal form of r to denote, apparently,
a geminate consonant; for instance, in the Rhinoceros' Horn Sutra MS
the word for "rhinoceros" (Sanskrit khadga) is regularly spelled
(according to conventional transcription) kharga, which seems to
reflect the pronunciation khagga. Also worthy of note is the absence
of certain dialectal/orthographic features peculiar to the Gandhari
Dharmapada, such as its distinctive treatment of combinations of nasal
+ homorganic stop of the type vinadi = Sanskrit vindati (Brough 1962:
98-99). These contrasts make it clear that the linguistic and
orthographic peculiarities of the Dharmapada text do not represent a
simple contrast between literary and epigraphic Gandhari, as it might
have seemed until now. Detailed linguistic and paleographic study of
the new documents should gradually clarify the complex patterns of
development of Gandhari as a literary language.
8. Plans for study and publication
In 1996, the British Library and the University of Washington entered
into a formal cooperative agreement in order to facilitate the
efficient and systematic study and publication of this new collection
of early Buddhist manuscripts, once again with the assistance of an
anonymous donor. The goal of the project is to coordinate the
preparation of a series of volumes, to be published by the British
Library, containing editions, translations, and studies of the texts.
An initial introductory volume containing a detailed description and
survey of the collection is currently under preparation and is to be
published as soon as possible. This is to be followed by the first
text volume, which will present the "Rhinoceros' Horn Sutra" and
associated texts. Plans for further volumes, including a projected
facsimile edition of the manuscripts, are currently under discussion.

RICHARD SALOMON
UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFERENCES
Barthoux, J. 1933. Les Fouilles de Hadda, I: Stupas et Sites. Text et
Dessins. Memoires de la Delegation archeologique francaise en
Afghanistan 4. Paris: Les Editions d'art et d'histoire.
Brough, John. 1962, The Gandhari Dharmapada. London Oriental Series 7.
London: Oxford University.
Konow, Sten. 1929. Kharoshthi Inscriptions with the Exception of Those
of Asoka. Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum, vol. II, part 1. Calcutta:
Government of India.
MacDowall, David W. 1973. "The Azes hoard from Shaikan-Dheri: Fresh
Evidence for the Context of Jihonika." In South Asian Archaeology:
Papers from the First International Conference of South Asian
Archaeologists Held in the University of Cambridge, ed. Norman
Hammond. Pp. 215-30. London: Duckworth.
Salomon, Richard. 1986. "The Inscription of Senavarma, King of Odi."
Indo-Iranian Journal 29: 261-93.
Salomon, Richard, and Gregory Schopen. 1984. "The Indravarman (Avaca)
Casket Inscription Reconsidered: Further Evidence for Canonical
Passages in Buddhist Inscriptions." Journal of the International
Association of Buddhist Studies 7: 107-23.
Sander, Lore. 1991. "The Earliest Manuscripts from Central Asia and
the Sarvastivada Mission." In Corolla Iranica: Papers in honour of
Prof. Dr. David Neil MacKenzie on the occasion of his 65th birthday on
April 8th, 1991, ed. Ronald E. Emmerick and Dieter Weber. Pp. 133-50.
Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang.
Wilson, H. H. 1841. Ariana Antiqua: A Descriptive Account of the
Antiquities and Coins of Afghanistan. . . London: East India Company.

#2124
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 7, 2007 12:20 am 
Subject: Pind's article: Table of Contents

As Dr. Pind's article is long enough to require one, I've composed a
table of contents for it.  This uses indented bullet-points to give a
sense of the relation between sub-sections and chapters, and will
perhaps be useful to those needing to make repeated reference back to
the article --such as myself.

E.M.



 I. Introduction.
 II. Grammar in the Paali A.t.thakathaas
 II.1. Grammatical Terminology of the A.t.thakathaas
 [a.] a peculiar phonological terminology,
 [b.] a remarkable case terminology,
 [c.] a term denoting the syntactical category of adverb,
 [d.] terms denoting the four parts of speech,
 [e. ] two sets of terms defining four types of nominals, and
 [f.] terms denoting words, sentences, and syllables.
 II.2. Grammatical Analysis in the A.t.thakathaas
 III. Kaccaayana [Kacc].
 III.1 Authorship of Kacc.
 III.2. Title of Kacc.
 III.3. Date of Kacc.
 III.4. Composition of Kacc.
 III.5. The Number of Suttas of Kacc.
 III.6. Variant Readings of Kacc.
 III.7. Kacc and Jinavacana
 III.8. Kacc and Writing
 III.9. Kacc and the Letters of Paali
 III.10. The Sanskrit Sources of Kacc
 III.11. Technical Terms of Kacc
 III.12. The Descriptive Technique of Kacc
 III.13. Kacc and the Description of Paali
 III.13.1. The Grammatical Rules of Kacc
 III.13.2. Rules Describing Forms that are not Instantiated
 III.13.3. Kacc and the grammatical Annotations of the A.t.thakathaas
 IV. Post-Kaccaayana Paali Grammars and Commentaries
 IV.1. Kaccaayana-vutti [Kacc-v]
 IV.1.1. The Authorship of Kacc-v
 IV.1.2. Date of Kacc-v
 IV.1.3. The Standard Versions of Kacc-v
 IV.1.4. Reformulations of Kacc-v
 IV.1.5. Kacc-v as Interpreter of Kacc
 IV.1.6. Canonical and Non-canonical Quotations in Kacc-v
 IV.1.7. Interpolations in Kacc-v
 IV.2. Post-Kaccaayana Paali Grammars and Grammarians as Reflected in
           the Grammatical Literature
 IV.2.1. The Question of Chronology
 IV.2.2. Mahaanirutti [Mahaa-nir]
 IV.2.3. Sudattakisivanirutti [Sudatta-nir]
 IV.2.4. Niruttipi.taka [Nir-pi.t]
 IV.2.5. Cuu.lanirutti [Cuu.l-nir]
 IV.2.6. Ma~njuusaa [Ma~nj]
 IV.2.7. Sa"ngaha [Sgh]
 IV.2.8. Mahaasandhi [Mahaa-s]
 IV.2.9. Cuu.lasandhi [Cuu.l-s]
 IV.3. Extant Post-Kaccaayana Grammars and Commentaries
 IV.3.1 Mukahamattadiipanii [Mmd]
 IV.3.1.1. Mmd Commentaries and Grammars based upon Mmd

#2125
From: TK Wen <tzungkuen@yahoo.com.tw> 
Date: Mon May 7, 2007 6:55 am 
Subject: Re: Pind's article: Table of Contents

I like Dr. Pind's articles. How to get all these articles? Are they published as
a book? Could I get them on Internet?
   with much metta
   Tzungkuen

Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> G
           As Dr. Pind's article is long enough to require one, I've composed a
table of contents for it. This uses indented bullet-points to give a
sense of the relation between sub-sections and chapters, and will
perhaps be useful to those needing to make repeated reference back to
the article --such as myself.

E.M.

#2126 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 7, 2007 10:30 am 
Subject: Re: Pind's article: Table of Contents

Dear Eisel,

Thanks for preparing a table of contents of Dr. Pind's article and posting
it to the group. I'll add a bit more information such as the article's title
and where to download.

Pali Grammar and Grammarians from Buddhaghosa to Vajirabuddhi. A Survey.

The article (survey.doc) can be downloaded from the folder: O.H. Pind in the
files section at:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/files/

If anyone is unable to download it or to login, please email me a request
for a copy.

Best wishes,
Jim

> As Dr. Pind's article is long enough to require one, I've composed a
> table of contents for it.  This uses indented bullet-points to give a
> sense of the relation between sub-sections and chapters, and will
> perhaps be useful to those needing to make repeated reference back to
> the article --such as myself.
>
> E.M.

#2127 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 7, 2007 2:48 pm 
Subject: Re: Birch-barch MS (1st century) & Kacc 

Hi Eisel,

Thanks for the article on the Birch Bark MS which I will read later. Glad to
hear of your rapid progress on Kacc. I look forward to seeing your edition
once it is published.

As for myself, progress in being able to read Kaccaayana's grammar remains
painfully slow and hard work, probably due to my go-slow approach and dull
wit. I hope to have the whole grammar memorized some day though. That's my
ideal. So far, I have all 51 suttas of the Sandhisutta fairly well memorized
which I try to recite on a daily basis. I also have the first ka.n.da of the
Kaccaayanavutti memorized. Once memorized I think one could recite the
entire Kaccaayanasutta (about 675 suttas without the vutti) in one hour.

I'm also just getting started studying the Kaarakakappa as I feel that my
understanding of Pali syntax is still very weak and in need of much
improvement. I'm thinking of introducing a few of these suttas on syntax for
group study and discussion a little later on. I found Kacc 271 easy but the
next one (272) is quite difficult to comprehend--the first example
"buddhasmaa paraajenti a~n~natitthiyaa" makes no syntactical sense at all.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2128 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 7, 2007 11:33 pm 
Subject: Re: Birch-barch MS (1st century) & Kacc 

Hi Jim,

   Just try to keep in mind that the examples are often extremely rare,
exceptions to the rule, etc. --so much so that I'm frequently finding
that the Sinhalese editions "mis-correct" the examples to reflect more
common usage, destroying the point of the example (whereas the Burmese
seems to retain the correct spellings, generally).

   And, further, the examples are "not infrequently" grossly unrelated
to the rule in question.

   We already discussed a few very difficult examples of this on the list.

   In any case, one must regard the examples as tertiary.

E.M.

#2129 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 5:27 am 
Subject: Dangers of being a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki <kawasaki@brelief.org>

Dear Eisel,

A week and a bit ago, [the scholar-monk Bhante Nyanatusita] was
robbed.  Two young
men went to the Forest Hermitage and asked for
water.  When he turned to get them some, they
attacked him with knives.  He tried to run into
the Hermitage, but fell and twisted his ankle
badly.  They put their knives to his throat,
pushed him inside and tied him up.  They had cut
the telephone wires at some point, and carefully
closed all the curtains to work in secrecy. While
they were searching for stuff to steal, he
managed to untie himself and attempted to escape.
The front door, however, was locked and they
caught him as he tried to reach the back
door.  This time they dragged him upstairs and
tied him up there and locked him in.  At last he
was able to shout for help from the neighboring
monastery/meditation center across the ravine.
The monk from there came and rescued him.  One
hand sustained some very deep cuts and his leg
was badly sprained and painful.  They stole his
laptop computer, some money that his steward
hadn't put away yet, and toothbrushes and soap
(?!)  Fortunately he had just backed up all the
data on his computer and it was an old, not very
good one, with a sticky keyboard.  Police suspect
it was some young army deserters, but who
knows.  We hope they are caught before they do something worse.

In case of sprain, ice for the first 2 hours,
then warm soaks, and keep elevated as much as
possible.  No massage, ever!  Source:  WTIND.

Do write as soon as you can -- we're concerned
about your situation and don't want you factored into Lao statistics!

With metta,
v and k

#2130 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 2:00 pm 
Subject: Re: Birch-barch MS (1st century) & Kacc

Hi Eisel,

Ole sent me an explanatory note offlist for the example I quoted from Kacc
272. The syntax makes sense when one checks the Sanskrit suutra at Paa.n
I.4:26 and definition 3 in Apte's dictionary under paraa-ji gives a passive
meaning to the verb in its active form i.e. the heretics are overwhelmed by
the Buddha or the heretics find the Buddha unbearable or overwhelming.

Sorry to read about what happened to Ven. Nyanatusita which I would call a
horrific home invasion. Ven. Nyanatusita is a member of our list. Let's wish
him well and a full and speedy recovery.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2131 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 10, 2007 10:54 am 
Subject: Kacc 271 

Text:
yasmaadapeti bhayamaadatte vaa tadapaadaana.m || 271 ||

yasmaa vaa apeti | yasmaa vaa bhaya.m jaayate | yasmaa vaa aadatte | ta.m
kaaraka.m apaadaanasa~n~na.m hoti ||

ta.m yathaa || gaamaa apenti munayo | nagaraa niggato raajaa | coraa bhaya.m
jaayate | aacariyupajjhaayehi sikkha.m ga.nhaati sisso ||

apaadaanamiccanena kvattho || apaadaane pa~ncamii ||

Notes:
1)
The source of the text is p. 136 of the printed edition of
Kacca~n~n:saddaakrii:paa.th in the Burmese script and published in 1982 by
the Ministry of Religion of the Burmese Government. The above text is not
an exact transcription which is as follows:

    271 |  88,308 || yasmaa dapeti bhayamaadatte
vaa tadapaadaana.m-1 ||

    yasmaa vaa apeti | yasmaa vaa bhaya.m jaayate |
yasmaa vaa aadatte | ta.m kaaraka.m apaadaanasa~n~na.m
hoti ||

    ta.m yathaa? gaamaa apenti munayo | nagaraa niggato
raajaa | coraa bhaya.m jaayate | aacariyupajjhaayehi
sikkha.m ga.nhaati sisso ||

    apaadaanamiccanena kvattho? apaadaane pa~ncamii ||

The "-1" in "tadapaadaana.m-1" represents supercript 1(for a footnote).

2)
The text constitutes the first of 45 suttas with its vutti and
udaahara.naani (examples) in the Kaarakakappa on syntax. The first 5 suttas
define the technical term (sa~n~naa) "apaadaana.m" (ablative), one of the
six kaarakas that assist the verb or verbal in accomplishing its action.

Questions:
1) In the sutta as a whole, there are four main parts: sutta, vutti,
udaahara.naani, and the last part with "kvattho".  Does the last part have a
name? If so, what is it?

2) In the text at the top, I have avoided Roman punctuation all together and
used only the single and double da.n.das. Is it correct to use double
da.n.das in place of question marks?

Best wishes,
Jim

#2132 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu May 10, 2007 11:47 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 271
_____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 10. maj 2007 16:55
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Kacc 271

Dear Jim,

  the last part with "kvattho". Does the last part have a
name? If so, what is it?


  This part has no name. It is meant to place the sutta in the context of
Kacc 297, which is quoted as reference.

Ole Pind

#2133 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 10, 2007 2:03 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271

Dear Ole,

Thanks for your quick response. Instead of "kvattho" the Saddaniiti uses
"ki.m payojana.m" (see Sadd III 604,22). "Payojana.m" (use, need, purpose)
is one of the meanings of "attho". In DPPN under the article
"Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na" there is mention of the parts of a division (kappa)
consisting of sutta, vutti, payoga, and nyaasa. I take it that the nyaasa
refers to Mmd but what part does "payoga" (grammatical analysis) refer to
in the grammar? The term comes into use in the interpretation of Kacc 272
(274)

Jim

<< the last part with "kvattho". Does the last part have a
name? If so, what is it?


  This part has no name. It is meant to place the sutta in the context of
Kacc 297, which is quoted as reference.

Ole Pind >>

#2134 
From: TK Wen <tzungkuen@yahoo.com.tw> 
Date: Fri May 11, 2007 12:41 am 
Subject: O - pXMw2008oc餤

[deleted: accidentally posted]

#2135 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 11, 2007 6:33 am 
Subject: Kacc & Classical punctuation

Jim raised a question about applying punctuation to classical texts.

Each edition of Kacc approaches this problem in a different way;
sometimes, the different spacing of words, insertion of commas at
different points, etc. reveals that the editors of different editions
understood passages differently --or failed to understand (e.g.) where
one example stops and another starts, etc.

Some (e.g. Filliozat) consider all such punctuation as an unwanted
intrusion into the purity of the received text; however, it can tell
us a lot about the stages of how these texts are indeed "defiled"
before they reach us --i.e., mere mortals like ourselves, struggling
to understand the syllables they're stringing together in the process
of editing.

E.M.

#2136 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri May 11, 2007 8:39 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 271

Dear Jim,

payoga denotes usage like prayoga in Sanskrit grammar. The entry in DPPN is
mistaken in taking it to denote grammatical analysis.

Ole Pind

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 10. maj 2007 20:03
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Kacc 271



Dear Ole,

Thanks for your quick response. Instead of "kvattho" the Saddaniiti uses
"ki.m payojana.m" (see Sadd III 604,22). "Payojana.m" (use, need, purpose)
is one of the meanings of "attho". In DPPN under the article
"Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na" there is mention of the parts of a division (kappa)
consisting of sutta, vutti, payoga, and nyaasa. I take it that the nyaasa
refers to Mmd but what part does "payoga" (grammatical analysis) refer to
in the grammar? The term comes into use in the interpretation of Kacc 272
(274)

Jim

<< the last part with "kvattho". Does the last part have a
name? If so, what is it?

This part has no name. It is meant to place the sutta in the context of
Kacc 297, which is quoted as reference.

Ole Pind >>

#2137 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 1:25 am 
Subject: Bokeo: The Pali milieu 

I have asked at all the temples here if Pali is studied anywhere in
Huay Xay or Bokeo; the answer is a uniform "no".  More surprisingly:
nobody has heard of any monks gaining such an education in Burma
("Pa-ma") --perhaps reflecting that the connection here is to Shan
state generally, and to the Tai Lue particularly, who seem to be as
badly off as the Laotians themselves in "preserving" Pali studies
(this is a surmise only on my part).

As I sat next to the Wat, writing out pages of Pali exercises
recently, a troupe of Thai tourists arrived, walked around the temple,
and put money into a locked box; the monks briefly recited about 20
words in Pali (to earn the donation, I suppose), and the tourists then
left.  The monks immediately opened up the box, shared the money
between them, started smoking cigarettes, and proceeded down the road
with fireworks under their arms, counting their money openly, and
happily.

They climb trees and pick fruit, they dig the earth and build
(meaningless) monuments, and do not even know enough Pali to write an
inscription above a new doorway of a temple, etc. --it is all in
modern Lao.  A few learn "Lue" script and make of the antique
vernacular a kind of substitute for Pali in magiks of all kinds,
including tattoos (which even the Shan still preserve in Pali).

#2138 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 10:19 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 

In a previous message I asked the following question:

> 2) In the text at the top, I have avoided Roman punctuation all together
> and used only the single and double da.n.das. Is it correct to use double
> da.n.das in place of question marks?

The answer is "yes" according to my 1929 Burmese edition of the Nyaasa
(Mmd). It doesn't appear to use any Roman punctuation at all other than
hyphens to separate some of the words in the aphorisms. It has, for
instance, || kasmaa ||  There are more often no spaces between the words in
sentences and paragraphs can begin anywhere on a line with a ||         ||
Here's a sample of how the first few lines of Mmd ad Kacc 271 or 2.6.1
appears as transcribed from the Burmese characters (the line breaks are not
the same}:

    (271-88-308)    yasmaa-dapeti bhaya-maadatte vaa ta-
dapaadaana.m||        ||kimatthamidamuccate||  yasmaavaaapeti|
yasmaavaabhaya.mjaayate| yasmaavaaaadatte|ta.mkaaraka.m
apaadaanasa~n~na.m hotiiti ~naapanattha.m||

The complete commentary on this sutta runs to about 2 1/2 pages.

J.A.

#2139 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 10:25 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 

Yes, Jim, I rather assumed that you already knew that the question
mark (?) is not among the ancient glyphs of the Pali language.

The Sinhalese have only a single mark of punctuation in their Pali
manuscripts, the "sacred scribble" (the Sinhalese word is something
like "Kundalliya") --which serves as everything from a hyphen to a
paragraph mark.

It's a different story for every MS tradition, but the transition to a
printed text (in western book form) invites various innovations (such
as the comma and question mark) --and, as I say, these tend to reflect
the interpretation of the text as it is "transposed" from leaf to
printed page (e.g., where they place commas shows where they thought
one example ends and the next begins, etc.)

E.M.

#2140 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 12, 2007 10:27 pm 
Subject: Bokeo: The Pali milieu (2) 

Two things come to mind, re: Lao people (not) reading about Buddhism.

One is this well-intentioned by (in my opinion) disasterous program
put together by a bunch of rich, white Falangs in Luang Phabang:

http://www.thequietintheland.org/newsletter3.pdf

... on page 10 they have information about the book they wrote and
distributed to monks in L. Phabang.

These are probably very "nice" white people, who look around and see
that the monks are playing video games (and certainly not reading any
books) and think "We'll write something about Buddhist meditation and
hand it around to the monks..." --well, the problem is that they're
just as ignorant as the Lao monks.

They can't read Pali, either; they're not scholars or experts, and
they do not bother to consult the work of scholars and experts.  It's
the blind leading the blind --howeverso good their intentions may be.

Secondly, yesterday, as I sat by the side of the Mekong, a very lean
man walked up to me and asked me about what I was reading with some
excitement --he looked as if he had been malnourised all of his life.

He neither looked nor sounded Lao, but seemed delighted when I
explained that I was reading Pali.  I had to ask, (in Lao:) "Are you
Lao?"  To which he responded, "Nao," and then again, "Kon Nao"
--apparently the shibboleth for whatever lingual minority he
represents is that they pronounce "L-" as "N-" --as it sounded to me
as if he were saying "Cold, yes I am cold" ("Nao" = "cold/chilled").

I then gave a rehearsed statement in Lao that Pali had come to this
country from India, via Sri Lanka, a long time ago, and was the
original language of Buddhism, etc.; the emaciated man's face was
absolutely glowing as he stared at the various books that were in
front of me (variously in Burmese & Sinhalese script).

Perhaps he was a monk as a young boy, and had once wanted to learn
Pali; I'll never know.

In any case, despite all of the well-earned cynicism one feels about
the Lao "readership", there are still a few souls who show some
sincere interest when unexpectedly confronted with the Pali language.

I neither know where that man came from nor where he was going; likely
he wandered up from a boat on the shore.

E.M.

#2141 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 12:01 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 

It is not entirely clear to me what Jim is trying to do in his transcription of Kacc 271 from the Burmese 1982 edition.  And in particular why he is concerned about how to treat
the question marks there.  It is true that there is no equivalent to a question mark in most
pre-modern Pali texts.  That makes it a little odd to ask if it is 'correct' to use double
da.n.das in place of question marks.  Since a double da.n.da is not equivalent to a question
mark, it will lose information to replace them.
	 Of course some may say that the Burmese editors were 'incorrect' in using the
question mark in their text.  That is an issue best pursued with those editors.  In my view the absence of any equivalent to a question mark in the Pali tradition is completely irrelevant to its use in modern transcriptions.  Distinguishing questions with a special punctuation mark can be of value in making texts readable.  If the text contains a question, why not use a question mark?
Of course if you misunderstand the text, you may make a mistake.  It is also possible that the
text contains a sequence of words which can be interpreted as a question or not. Then to
use a question mark is to choose one of the possible interpretations.  But no more so than to
read the text at all.  Hopefully the interpretation you choose makes sense.

George Bedell

#2142 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 4:51 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Bedell,

   Did you do any further work on Kaccayana's "algebraic system of
declensions" (as Pind calls it)?

   I read the transcript of the short lecture you gave on this subject.

   I would be interested to know what precedents this has ... in the
history of linguistics in general.  Pind's article refers to it as an
innovation in Kacc (which it may well be) --or it could be a fragment
from some other grammatical tradition.

   In any case, I would be interested to know what conclusions you drew
on the existence of this feature of the Vyakarana.  Your lecture
remarked that it resembled some forms of modern linguistic analysis;
however, I doubt this was Kaccayana's inspiration.

E.M.

#2143 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 6:15 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Kacc 271 

The relevant 31 reads "Kacc has coined a set of algebraic terms denoting
inflectional classes of nominals: jha denotes masculine stems in i and i [Kacc
58], la masculine stems in u and u [Kacc 58]; pa denotes fem. stems in i, i
and u, u [Kacc 59]; gha stands for fem. stems in  [Kacc ], and ga denotes
voc. sg. [Kacc 57]."
There are other algebraic terms in Kacc. They stem invariably from Sanskrit
sources (Kaatantra and Paninian grammar) with the necessary modifications due to
constraints on the formation of strings in Pali.

Ole H. Pind

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne af
Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 13. maj 2007 10:52
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Kacc 271



Bedell,

#2144 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 7:00 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 

Eisel,

I take it that 'Kaccaayana's algebraic system of declensions' is a reference to
sutta 55:

	 Si yo a.m yo naa hi sa na.m smaa hi sa na.m smi.m su.

This is a list of case suffixes, singular and plural, for seven cases (the vocative is handled
separately).  Variations between genders or declensions are specified by other suttas.  Its
most obvious antecedent is Panini 4.1.2, also a list of case suffixes, but including a dual
for each, and diacritic consonants to pick out certain groups of suffixes which behave in a
parallel fashion.

	 Sw au jas am au.t cha.s .taa bhyaam bhis n"e bhyaam bhyas n"asi bhyaam bhyas
	 n"as oos aam n"y oos sup.

Whether the technique was invented by Panini or taken from a predecessor is difficult to determine since the grammars of those predecessors have not survived.  Of course there is nothing known in Greek or Latin traditional grammar remotely comparable. Kaccaayana's use of this approach is clearly derivative (though he does not derive Pali from Sanskrit as some Prakrit grammars do).  He may be responsible, as Pind suggests, for ga (57), jha and la (58), pa (59) and gha (60), terms for classes of noun stems according to gender and final vowel.? But the technique is still Paninian.

In my little paper I tried to show that the traditional analysis of the set of examples selected is basically the same as some modern morphological theories would offer.  Of course this does not mean that Kaccaayana was influenced by modern morphology. It might mean that modern morphology has been influenced by Indian ideas, though most morphologists know little or nothing about Panini, not to mention Kaccaayana.  I am now working on a companion piece dealing with verb morphology; I'll let you know when it is ready.  Does your reappearance mean you are doing R and R in Vientiane, or the net has come to Bokeo?

George Bedell

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@...> wrote:
>
> Bedell,
>
>   Did you do any further work on Kaccayana's "algebraic system of
> declensions" (as Pind calls it)?
>
>   I read the transcript of the short lecture you gave on this subject.
>
>   I would be interested to know what precedents this has ... in the
> history of linguistics in general.  Pind's article refers to it as an
> innovation in Kacc (which it may well be) --or it could be a fragment
> from some other grammatical tradition.
>
>   In any case, I would be interested to know what conclusions you drew
> on the existence of this feature of the Vyakarana.  Your lecture
> remarked that it resembled some forms of modern linguistic analysis;
> however, I doubt this was Kaccayana's inspiration.
>
> E.M.
>

#2145 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 12:49 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Dear George,

I was attempting to produce a text using only the single or double da.n.da
(and line spacing) to separate portions of the text. In dealing with the
question marks, I was uncertain as to whether I should use a single or a
double da.n.da. In my experience, I don't think the text loses in its
intelligibility with the exclusive use of a danda system of marking off
portions of a Pali text compared to the use of Roman punctuation or a
mixture of the two systems. Questions are easily recognized by the
interrogative words they contain. However, in the case of || ta.m yathaa ||,
I don't see it as a question so I will need to do a bit of research to find
out why it is considered a question by editors. I thought the phrase meant
"as follows, namely, i.e., e.g.".  I also wonder if the two words should be
separate and not compounded as in "ta.myathaa".

Best wishes,
Jim

> It is not entirely clear to me what Jim is trying to do in his transcription of Kacc 271
> from the Burmese 1982 edition.  And in particular why he is concerned about how to treat
> the question marks there.  It is true that there is no equivalent to a question mark in most
> pre-modern Pali texts.  That makes it a little odd to ask if it is 'correct' to use double
> da.n.das in place of question marks.  Since a double da.n.da is not equivalent to a question
> mark, it will lose information to replace them.

#2146 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 9:04 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Thanks once again to Pind & Bedell for their latest replies,

   One disadvantage of the method I've followed in preparing my edition
& translation (and it is stated explicitly as "outside the scope of
the work" in the introduction) is that I am NOT conducting comparative
study of Panini, nor Katantra, nor even Sadd., etc.

   This is, in a sense, fortuitous: my edition will relieve Dr Pind of
the labour of collecting (and correcting) the minor variations between
editions, but will neither compete with him (nor reproduce his
labours) so far as the historical reconstruction of the original Kacc.
goes --nor will it in any way overlap with the type of comparative
analysis here demostrated in your e-mails.

   What I am producing is will be a handsome, reliable edition of the
source text (with COPIOUS notes on the variations), with both
translation and "explanation" (i.e., because simply translating "Do
Dhassa Ca" (Kacc 20) is not enough) --but that is all.

   I am NOT going to offer a comparative study of Kacc. vs. Sadd. vs.
Katantra --and this is a good thing, as it seems to be the interest of
other scholars.

   Thank you again for the note; I am largely ignorant of Panini,
although I remember that book "Panini and Emptiness" which presents
the grammatical antecedents of the philosophy of Nagarjuna, viz.,
views on meaning (lingually) arising from Emptiness.

E.M.

#2147 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun May 13, 2007 9:12 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 

Jim,

Thanks very much for the elaboration.  You are right that questions are easily recognized if they contain an interrogative word, but not all questions do.  In particular those like 'is that you?'  One can imagine understanding ta.m yathaa as 'namely?'  That would give the text a catechitical flavor.  But it is mere speculation, since I really don't know how the grammar is used to teach Pali in Myanmar.

George

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
>
> Dear George,
>
> I was attempting to produce a text using only the single or double da.n.da
> (and line spacing) to separate portions of the text. In dealing with the
> question marks, I was uncertain as to whether I should use a single or a
> double da.n.da. In my experience, I don't think the text loses in its
> intelligibility with the exclusive use of a danda system of marking off
> portions of a Pali text compared to the use of Roman punctuation or a
> mixture of the two systems. Questions are easily recognized by the
> interrogative words they contain. However, in the case of || ta.m yathaa ||,
> I don't see it as a question so I will need to do a bit of research to find
> out why it is considered a question by editors. I thought the phrase meant
> "as follows, namely, i.e., e.g.".  I also wonder if the two words should be
> separate and not compounded as in "ta.myathaa".
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>

#2148 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon May 14, 2007 1:54 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Kacc 271
_____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 13. maj 2007 18:49
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Kacc 271

Dear Jim,

    < I also wonder if the two words should be
separate and not compounded as in "ta.myathaa". >

You should write ta.myathaa, which is a Sanskritism reproducing Sanskrit
tadyathaa



Best wishes,

Ole Pind

#2149 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 14, 2007 8:02 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271
 
Dear Ole,

Thanks! I suppose that even when the two words are joined, that doesn't
necessarily make it into a samaasa. Do you take the "ta.m" to be a pronoun
or a particle? MW takes the "tad" in the corresponding Sanskrit word to be
an indeclinable and in the Vera~njaka.n.da (Vin III 8-9) the Buddha uses the
phrase "yathaa ta.m". The Sp-.t glosses the "ta.m" with "nipaatamatta.m". I
think the question mark after ta.myathaa in Kacc 271 (273) and throughout
the grammar might be related to the glosses on "ta.m yathaa" (= te katame)
in the Sutta-niddesa and Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa on Kacc 2 which I find hard
to accept.

Jim

  < I also wonder if the two words should be
separate and not compounded as in "ta.myathaa". >

You should write ta.myathaa, which is a Sanskritism reproducing Sanskrit
tadyathaa

#2150 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue May 15, 2007 5:13 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Kacc 271 

Dear Jim,

ta.myathaa is a particle consisting of a pronoun and yathaa like seyyathaa,
which is derived from the pronoun sa + yathaa. In fact, in Vedic Sanskrit
you find sayathaa (editions invariably print sa yathaa). Both particles
usually cost commentators syntactical problems.
The Burmese editors of Kacc were unaware that ta.myathaa presupposes
Sanskrit tadyathaa, commonly used to  introduces examples. The use of
question marks after ta.m yathaa as the editions have it, is
incomprehensible.
yathaata.m as we should write is another particle. In most cases it
introduces a comparison and is used in the sense of "as;" but it has other
syntactical properties that are hard to define. Sometimes commentators take
it as a particle used in the sense of because (kara.navacana). It occurs
very often in Pali lit. and is in need of a throrough syntactical
investigation. Comparisons with seyyathaa are invariably constructed with
pot. in Pali, like tadyathaa and sayathaa in Vedic Sanskrit. Notice that
yathaa constructed with pot. means that, so that, like in Sanskrit. I will
not exclude the possibility that yathaata.m has the same syntactical
function in some instances.

Ole Holten Pind

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 15. maj 2007 02:03
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Kacc 271

Dear Ole,

Thanks! I suppose that even when the two words are joined, that doesn't
necessarily make it into a samaasa. Do you take the "ta.m" to be a pronoun
or a particle? MW takes the "tad" in the corresponding Sanskrit word to be
an indeclinable and in the Vera~njaka.n.da (Vin III 8-9) the Buddha uses the
phrase "yathaa ta.m". The Sp-.t glosses the "ta.m" with "nipaatamatta.m". I
think the question mark after ta.myathaa in Kacc 271 (273) and throughout
the grammar might be related to the glosses on "ta.m yathaa" (= te katame)
in the Sutta-niddesa and Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa on Kacc 2 which I find hard
to accept.

Jim

< I also wonder if the two words should be
separate and not compounded as in "ta.myathaa". >

You should write ta.myathaa, which is a Sanskritism reproducing Sanskrit
tadyathaa

#2151 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 15, 2007 8:30 am 
Subject: For a (digital) Pali dictionary 

Just a very brief note:

For those who struggle with Pali dictionaries in digital format, you
might want to glance at this "ready-made" computer interface, to which
any (Asian) language can be applied:

http://numata.designed.jp/?cmd=read&page=EIJIRO%20mini&lang=en

The example displayed is an English-Japanese dictionary --but the
point is that if you were to (e.g.) re-format the files from the PTS
Dictionary (or the Pali dictionary distributed by www.metta.lk) you
could have a proper computer interface for the dictionary (and even
non-Romanized text ... which you all know I prefer) without having to
do much programming.

Sooner or later, someone has to volunteer to do this...

Having a digital dictionary as a mess of (non-Unicode) files should be
abandoned with the 20th century (along with ozone-depleting hairspray,
and, to be optimistic, industrialized genocide).

E.M.

#2152 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue May 15, 2007 8:27 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Dear Ole,

Thank-you for your illuminating remarks on ta.myathaa and yathaata.m. I
agree that the question marks after ta.myathaa should not be there. But it
seems debatable to me whether or not the particle really is an avyayiibhaava
compound as it could just as well be two separate words with or without a
space between them. I don't see an entry for tadyathaa as a particle in MW
or Apte but they do show tad yathaa. I will continue to keep an open mind on
this matter and not come to any conclusion until I know a good deal more. I
think the ta.m in the case of Kacc 271 may be referring to what precedes
i.e. the apaadaanakaaraka. One advantage in having ta.m as the first member
of a compound is that it allows for a wider range of interpretations as to
its case and number to fit the context.

Jim

#2153 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 6:40 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Kacc 271
_____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 16. maj 2007 02:27
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Kacc 271

  Dear Jim

<I think the ta.m in the case of Kacc 271 may be referring to what precedes
i.e. the apaadaanakaaraka >

This assumption does not explain all the subsequent occurrences.

  Pali seyyathaa is semantically and syntactically equivalent to Sanskrit
sayathaa, which is commonly printed as sa yathaa for reasons that elude me.
It is an idiomatic expression and should be written sayathaa because there
is no syntactical agreement between sa and the nouns that occur in clauses
introduced by sayathaa. The same applies to sentences with ta.myathaa
introducing the examples quoted in Kacc-v.

Ole Pind

#2154 
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 8:36 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Jim,

Ole has given you a good account of ta.myathaa. If you want references
to this in dictionaries, grammars, studies, see for example

- Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary s.v. tad-yathaa,
sayyathiidam
- Oberlies's Pali: A Grammar of the Language of the Theravada Tipitaka,
pp. 13, 185
- ta.myathaa in the Milindapanha is taken as a Western form compared to
Eastern seyyathaa by Norman, Collected Papers vo. II, p. 97 and others

Regards
Mark

Jim Anderson wrote:

> Dear Ole,
>
> Thank-you for your illuminating remarks on ta.myathaa and yathaata.m. I
> agree that the question marks after ta.myathaa should not be there. But it
> seems debatable to me whether or not the particle really is an
> avyayiibhaava
> compound as it could just as well be two separate words with or without a
> space between them. I don't see an entry for tadyathaa as a particle in MW
> or Apte but they do show tad yathaa. I will continue to keep an open
> mind on
> this matter and not come to any conclusion until I know a good deal
> more. I
> think the ta.m in the case of Kacc 271 may be referring to what precedes
> i.e. the apaadaanakaaraka. One advantage in having ta.m as the first
> member
> of a compound is that it allows for a wider range of interpretations as to
> its case and number to fit the context.
>
> Jim

#2155 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 9:55 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Jim,

Tadyathaa occurs frequently in the Sanskrit versions of the Canon in
exactly  the same contexts as seyyathaa in Pali. MW is a little out
of date on this. I think (but am not sure) that at least in editing
Buddhist texts in romanization everyone would now write tadyathaa as
single word.

I don't think ta.myathaa is found in the Pali Canon proper. It does
occur in the paracanonical works at:
Mil 1; Pe.t 113; 146; Nett 14; 191.

These are works that derive from or are influenced by some other
variety of Middle Indian or Buddhist Sanskrit. I don't think there
can be any doubt that ta.myathaa corresponds to seyyathaa.

It is not clear to me whether tadyathaa in Sanskrit is ancient or a
back-formation from something Middle Indian.

Lance

>Dear Ole,
>
>Thank-you for your illuminating remarks on ta.myathaa and yathaata.m. I
>agree that the question marks after ta.myathaa should not be there. But it
>seems debatable to me whether or not the particle really is an avyayiibhaava
>compound as it could just as well be two separate words with or without a
>space between them. I don't see an entry for tadyathaa as a particle in MW
>or Apte but they do show tad yathaa. I will continue to keep an open mind on
>this matter and not come to any conclusion until I know a good deal more. I
>think the ta.m in the case of Kacc 271 may be referring to what precedes
>i.e. the apaadaanakaaraka. One advantage in having ta.m as the first member
>of a compound is that it allows for a wider range of interpretations as to
>its case and number to fit the context.
>
>Jim


--
Best Wishes,

Lance

-------------
From:
L.S. Cousins,
12 Dynham Place,
Oxford,
OX3 7NL

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn@ntlworld.com

#2156 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 6:55 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Dear Ole,

I wrote:
<I think the ta.m in the case of Kacc 271 may be referring to what precedes
i.e. the apaadaanakaaraka >

Ole:
<< This assumption does not explain all the subsequent occurrences. >>

I'm not sure what you mean by "all the subsequent occurrences". The four
occurrences in the examples (or 5 in the Sinhalese ed.)?

I was just looking at what the Saddaniiti had to say about seyyathiida.m
which it uses instead of ta.myathaa--at least in the first few suttas. I was
surprised to find the interrogative meanings given to it at p. 892,24-6 as
follow:

" seyyathiida.m iti so katamo ti vaa te katame ti vaa saa katamaa ti vaa taa
katama ti vaa ta.m kataman ti vaa taani katamaani ti vaa eva.m
li"ngavacanavasena aniyamite atthe pi; "

I mentioned in an earlier post about the two commentarial interpretations of
ta.myathaa in Kacc 2 as "te katame" and now something similar pops up for
seyyathiida.m in the Saddaniiti. The ida.m in seyyaathiida.m seems to
suggest that the preceding pronoun sa or so which se stands for must refer
to what precedes whereas the ida.m would refer to what follows.

I also see an interesting comment at Sadd 633,19-21 about the teachers' wish
for an e instead of the o in soyyathiida.m.

Jim

#2157 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 9:48 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

I would like to thank both Mark and Lance for their comments and references
on tadyathaa and ta.myathaa. Their responses came as a pleasant surprise. It
has been a long while since we last heard from Lance on the list. I think
enough has been said about ta.myathaa for now--at least for me. A lot to
think about. I plan to move on to other aspects of the same sutta in the
spirit of an introductory yet critical inquiry into the kaarakakappa and the
technical terms used in it which I will share with the list as long as there
is some interest. I think there is a call to take a hard look at what the
kappa has to teach us and to put it to the test.

Jim

#2158 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed May 16, 2007 11:32 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Jim,

I have been observing ! It's just that Pali grammatical studies are
something of which I have only a rather limited knowledge. So it is
more a question of learning rather than contributing.

Also I have been busy this last term teaching a course here on the
inscriptions of Asoka - something I have never taught before.

Lance

>I would like to thank both Mark and Lance for their comments and references
>on tadyathaa and ta.myathaa. Their responses came as a pleasant surprise. It
>has been a long while since we last heard from Lance on the list.

#2159 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:47 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Kacc 271
_____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 17. maj 2007 00:55
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Kacc 271

Dear  Jim

  < I'm not sure what you mean by "all the subsequent occurrences". The four
occurrences in the examples (or 5 in the Sinhalese ed.) >

I was thinking of all instances recorded in Kacc.

  < I was just looking at what the Saddaniiti had to say about seyyathiida.m
which it uses instead of ta.myathaa--at least in the first few suttas. I was
surprised to find the interrogative meanings given to it at p. 892,24-6 as
follow:

" seyyathiida.m iti so katamo ti vaa te katame ti vaa saa katamaa ti vaa taa
katama ti vaa ta.m kataman ti vaa taani katamaani ti vaa eva.m
li"ngavacanavasena aniyamite atthe pi; " >

  This explanation is based upon glosses in Buddhaghosa?s ct.s like, for
instance his ct. on Brahmajaalasuttanta p. 81 and elsewhere. You will find
every single example mentioned in Sadd exemplified by Buddhaghosa. The idea
is that the particle (nipaata) introduces the answer to the question what
sort of thing x is; answer: it is such and such a thing. The use of katama
has this function and it is not a gloss on seyathiidam itself. Buddhagosa is
trying to explain the context in which the term is used, and Sadd takes over
his explanation without supplying the context

< I also see an interesting comment at Sadd 633,19-21 about the teachers' wish
for an e instead of the o in soyyathiida.m. >

This is interesting. It shows that indigenous scholars thought that the
pronoun se would correspond to so, which is regularly attested in the canon.
However, it is a sandhi form, and one has to explain whether a sandhi form
of /sa/, which only occurs under certain conditions in Sanskrit and in some
cases as /sa/ in the canon (cf. the corresponding use of /esa/ in the canon)
would suddenly appear as the sandhi form /se/ (a so-called maagadhism or
eastern form). In my opinion seyyathaa is derived from sa yathaa (this is
the usual transliteration), which is well attested in the Braahmanas in the
sense "like, for instance" . It is regularly found in comparisons. I assume
that /a/ was raised to /e/ under the influence of /y/. This is well attested
in the canon. The geminated /yy/ is somewhat of a problem, which is never
addressed. One would have expected the form sethaa. I assume that the
gemination is for emphasis in sentence initial position in prose. The
gemination would make the /e/ short as is commonly the case of vowels before
geminate consonants in the canon.

  Ole pind

#2160 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 21, 2007 9:55 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 

Dear Ole,

<< The geminated /yy/ is somewhat of a problem, which is never
addressed. One would have expected the form sethaa. I assume that the
gemination is for emphasis in sentence initial position in prose. The
gemination would make the /e/ short as is commonly the case of vowels before
geminate consonants in the canon. >>

Didn't you mean to write "seyathaa" instead of "sethaa"? I think Kacc 28
(paradvebhaavo .thaane) can account for the doubling of the /y/. See also
Ruup 40 with the examples: seyyo, jeyyo. Thanks for pointing out
Buddhaghosa's comments on "seyyathiida.m". I can now accept ta.myathaa as
one word.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2161 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 26, 2007 12:52 pm 
Subject: Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) 

In addition to the Kaccaayanavutti, there are several other grammatical
commentaries on the Kaccaayana suttas. These include, in chronological
order, Vajirabuddhi's Mukhamattadiipanii or Nyaasa (11th cent.?),
Buddhappiya's Ruupasiddhi and its .tiikaa (12th cent.), Saddhammajotipaala's
Kaccaayanasuttaniddesa (15th cent.), Mahaavijitaavin's Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa
(17th cent.), and the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii (20th cent.). It is also worth
consulting similar material in the traditional Sanskrit grammars and their
commentaries as well, as these may be helpful in shedding more light on the
many obscurities found in the Pali grammatical treatises.

I thought it might be good to begin with an extract from the
Kaccaayanasuttaniddesa (Sutt-nidd or Chap). Here's a transliteration of the
first few lines from a modern Thai script edition published by Buddhaghosa
College, Nakhorn Pathom, 2001:

[271 : 308] yasmaadapeti bhayamaadatte vaa tadapaadaana.m.

tattha yasmaati eka.m pada.m. apetiiti eka.m pada.m. bhayanti eka.m pada.m.
aadatteti eka.m pada.m. vaati eka.m pada.m. tanti eka.m pada.m. apaadaananti
eka.m pada.m. vibhatyantapadavibhaagavasena sattapadamidanti da.t.thabba.m.
[from p. 96 of the Thai text]

The entire commentarial passage on Kacc 271 (273 in the Sinhalese and Senart
numbering) runs to about 4 pages. The Kaarakakappa actually begins on the
previous page with a general discussion on the kaarakas which I intend to
get into later on. "tattha" (therein) refers to Kacc 271 (sutta alone). What
follows is a division of the sutta into seven words. Mahaavijitaavin calls
this type of analysis a padaccheda. I notice something similar in S.C.
Vasu's edn. and transl. of Paa.nini's A.s.taadhyaayii in that immediately
after each suutra he provides a list of the words (padaani) found therein.

In "vibhatyantapadavibhaagavasena" (by way of an analysis of words having
the vibhatti terminations), I'm puzzled by this phrasing as "vaa" doesn't
seem to belong. I understand "vibhatyantapada-" to refer to words that are
inflected (verbs and nouns) and should not include particles (nipaatas) such
as "vaa".

In "sattapadamidanti" (satta-padam ida.m iti), I think "sutta.m" is
understood to come after "ida.m". This would be a case of ellipsis.

Best wishes,
Jim
p.s. I see that one can now download Pata~njali's Mahaabhaa.sya (based on F.
Kielhorn's edn.) from GRETIL or George Cardona's webpage. This is a very old
Sanskrit grammatical commentary (circa 3rd cent. BC) on Kaatyaayana's
vaartikas on the Paninian suutras.

#2162 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sat May 26, 2007 10:46 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) 

Jim,

It may be worth mentioning that the analysis of connected text into 'words' is one of the bases of Indian linguistics.  Classically we see it in the padapaa.tha texts of the Vedas as opposed to the sa.mhitaapaa.tha.  The pratishaakhyas are statements of the relation between the two, restricted to a particular veda.  The 'word texts' play a role both in memorization of the 'connected' (and sacred) texts, and in preserving them in the oral tradition.  Presumably this role is somewhat different in a Buddhist and/or grammatical context.

Vibhatyantapada- echoes Panini 1.4.14: supti"nanta.mpada.m (a word is what ends in-sup [a verbal agreement suffix] or -ti"n [a case and number suffix]).  This sense of pada has to be distinguished from that in padapaa.tha, which applies to many items (for instance vaa, but also prefixes like sa.m) which do not meet Panini's definition.  It should not be surprising that there is no consistency on this point.

Thanks for the reference to GRETIL.  I would appreciate some idea of how to get copies of the other commentaries you mention.  (If you covered this before, I missed it.)

George Bedell

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
>
> In addition to the Kaccaayanavutti, there are several other grammatical
> commentaries on the Kaccaayana suttas. These include, in chronological
> order, Vajirabuddhi's Mukhamattadiipanii or Nyaasa (11th cent.?),

#2163 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun May 27, 2007 5:51 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) 

Dear Jim,

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 26. maj 2007 18:53
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd)



  < I understand "vibhatyantapada-" to refer to words that are
inflected (verbs and nouns) and should not include particles (nipaatas) such
as "vaa".

I agree, pada "syntactical" word is defined by Paa.nini as sup-ti.nantam, so
this is a non-standard usage. vaa is certainly not a pada.
Mukhamattadiipanii counts the padas included in every single sutta in the
same way, defining particles like navaa at Kacc 21 as padas.

Best wishes,

Ole Holten Pind

#2164 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun May 27, 2007 7:36 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) 

Dear George,

> It may be worth mentioning that the analysis of connected text into 'words' is one of the
> bases of Indian linguistics.  Classically we see it in the padapaa.tha texts of the Vedas as
> opposed to the sa.mhitaapaa.tha.  The pratishaakhyas are statements of the relation
> between the two, restricted to a particular veda.  The 'word texts' play a role both in
> memorization of the 'connected' (and sacred) texts, and in preserving them in the oral
> tradition.  Presumably this role is somewhat different in a Buddhist and/or grammatical
> context.

Thank-you for this. It is certainly worth mentioning.

> Vibhatyantapada- echoes Panini 1.4.14: supti"nanta.mpada.m (a word is what ends in
> -sup [a verbal agreement suffix] or -ti"n [a case and number suffix]). This sense of pada
> has to be distinguished from that in padapaa.tha, which applies to many items (for
> instance vaa, but also prefixes like sa.m) which do not meet Panini's definition.  It should
> not be surprising that there is no consistency on this point.

Your "-sup [a verbal agreement suffix] or -ti"n [a case and number suffix])"
should be: -sup [a case and number suffix] or -ti"n [a verbal agreement
suffix]).

Aggava.msa offers a definition of "pada" that would include, in my opinion,
indeclinables and prefixes as follows:

vibhatyantam avibhatyanta.m vaa atthajotaka.m pada.m. (Sd 27)

However, Paa.nini's definition of "pada" (1.4.14) certainly excludes
avibhatyantapadas. But I notice that indeclinables and prefixes could very
well fall within his definition of "praatipadika" (1.2.45) according to S.C.
Vasu's reference to Patanjali's opinion. Also of interest in the
Mahaabhaa.sya for a usage of pada that doesn't fully agree with Paa.nini's
definition, is the following statement that caught my attention some years
back:

catvaari "s.r:ngaani catvaari padajaataani naamaakhyaatopasarganipaataa.h ca
. [Mahaa-bh I.3]

This is part of an interpretation of a passage in the .Rgveda where the four
horns of a bullock (personified as speech) is a metaphor for the four
classes of words. These are precisely the same classes used in the
a.t.thakathas and the topic of pariccheda 27 of the Saddaniiti.

> Thanks for the reference to GRETIL.  I would appreciate some idea of how to get copies of
> the other commentaries you mention.  (If you covered this before, I missed it.)

How I received my copies has been brought up on the list before . They were
mailed to me through the generous help of some list members living in
Thailand. Sutt-nidd, Kacc-va.nn, and Kaccaayanatthadiipanii are publications
of Buddhaghosa College and offered for free (they may even have Mmd). The
main problem is that the college isn't set up to handle mail orders and
someone has to show up in person to procure these publications. Even though
they are free, it is advisable to give a donation as a good will gesture. In
message 1815 (May 16/06) Justin McDaniel gave the following contact
information regarding donations but I think it's equally applicable for
those wishing to make enquiries about their Pali grammar texts:

<< As for contacting Buddhaghosa College, you can e-mail them at:
buddhakosa@hotmail.com or snail mail them at:
Mahachulalongkorn Rachawithayalai, Withayalai Baliseuksa
Phutthakot, Nakorn Pathom, Wat Mahasawatnakphuttharam, Tambon
Homkret, Amphur Samphran, Changwat Nakorn Pathom 73170. Or
call (034) 299-356. I would address your letter to: Chakkrit
Chandradam (assistant to the dean). Since they have trouble
cashing checks sometime, I would enquire about the way they
receive donations (probably wire transfer). >>

Best wishes,
Jim

#2165 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon May 28, 2007 5:07 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) 

Jim,

> Your "-sup [a verbal agreement suffix] or -ti"n [a case and number suffix])"
> should be: -sup [a case and number suffix] or -ti"n [a verbal agreement
> suffix]).

Absolutely.

> Aggava.msa offers a definition of "pada" that would include, in my opinion,
> indeclinables and prefixes as follows:
>
> vibhatyantam avibhatyanta.m vaa atthajotaka.m pada.m. (Sd 27)
>
> However, Paa.nini's definition of "pada" (1.4.14) certainly excludes
> avibhatyantapadas.

My cat lacks a vibhatti, but I don't think he falls under the definition.  It seems that we need a larger category of linguistic entities.  There is some variation in the use of vibhatti; for some it is equivalent only to ti"n, and does not include sup.  And the force of atthajotaka.m in this definition is not clear to me.

Thanks for the information.

Cheers,

George

#2166 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu May 31, 2007 9:04 am 
Subject: di.t.thaa 

Dear group,

Just a few remarks to correct my remarks on di.t.thaa. Pali Text Society?s
dictionary suggests the derivation d.r.s.tyaa. This is a mistake. The form
is derived from Sanskrit di.s.tyaa an instrumental form of di.s.ti, which is
recorded in the sense "Thank God" or the like. This fits the canonical
contexts. The next question is why the Diigha text and the commentators read
bho sattaa jiivasi. I would suggest to take in sattaa as an example of
pluti, lenghthening of the final vowel of a vocative. This explains jiivasi.
It is rare to find examples of this usage in Pali prose.

Ole Holten Pind

#2167 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 9:00 am 
Subject: iCPD 

I take the oportunity to inform the group that most of the published volumes
of CPD have been uploadet at  <http://hfg.myx.dk/pali>
http://hfg.myx.dk/pali The project is in a preliminary stage and not every
page has been proof read. For getting an idea of how it works, click
soegeside.

Ole Holten Pind

#2168 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 11:04 am 
Subject: Re: iCPD 

Dear Ole,

Thank-you for the announcement. This is really great news but no surprise as
you had mentioned last year that it was in the works. I tried the website
and searched for the entry "aadisati" and received the entire entry very
quickly. One problem though is that some of the Unicode characters like the
ones from the Latin Extended Addtional range (.t .d .n etc.) do not display
correctly (just square boxes). I have Gandhari Unicode and VU Times
installed but neither one works for these characters on the iCPD webpage.
The online dictionary will be very useful and even though I have the printed
fascicles for all the vowels, the online version will make the search for
words a lot faster and I'll also be able to access the most recent fascicles
covering the latter "k" which I don't have.

Much appreciated,
Jim

> I take the oportunity to inform the group that most of the published
volumes
> of CPD have been uploadet at  <http://hfg.myx.dk/pali>
> http://hfg.myx.dk/pali The project is in a preliminary stage and not every
> page has been proof read. For getting an idea of how it works, click
> soegeside.
>
> Ole Holten Pind

#2169 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 11:24 am 
Subject: SV: iCPD 

Dear Jim,

I think that you will get around that problem if you use Mozilla. Please try
it out, and see if it works. If you still encounter problems, please let me
know, and I shall look into it. The text is in Gandhari so it should work.
It is very important that it can be used without any problems.

With best wishes,
Ole

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 5. juni 2007 17:04
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] iCPD

Dear Ole,

Thank-you for the announcement. This is really great news but no surprise as
you had mentioned last year that it was in the works. I tried the website
and searched for the entry "aadisati" and received the entire entry very
quickly. One problem though is that some of the Unicode characters like the
ones from the Latin Extended Addtional range (.t .d .n etc.) do not display
correctly (just square boxes). I have Gandhari Unicode and VU Times
installed but neither one works for these characters on the iCPD webpage.
The online dictionary will be very useful and even though I have the printed
fascicles for all the vowels, the online version will make the search for
words a lot faster and I'll also be able to access the most recent fascicles
covering the latter "k" which I don't have.

Much appreciated,
Jim

> I take the oportunity to inform the group that most of the published volumes
> of CPD have been uploadet at <http://hfg.myx. <http://hfg.myx.dk/pali> dk/pali>
> http://hfg.myx. <http://hfg.myx.dk/pali> dk/pali The project is in a preliminary stage and not every
> page has been proof read. For getting an idea of how it works, click > soegeside.
>
> Ole Holten Pind

#2170 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 12:42 pm 
Subject: Re: iCPD 

Dear Ole,

This is wonderful. I had not heard of this project until now. Do
please tell us a little more about it.

For me all the characters seem to display correctly. And it is
possible to cut and paste the results - really useful. The search
within articles also has the potential to be very helpful, although a
search for aadisati brought up as one of the answers upa-desa. Is
that correct ?

Anyway, there will no doubt be teething problems.

>I take the oportunity to inform the group that most of the published volumes
>of CPD have been uploadet at <<http://hfg.myx.dk/pali>http://hfg.myx.dk/pali>
><http://hfg.myx.dk/pali>http://hfg.myx.dk/pali The project is in a
>preliminary stage and not every
>page has been proof read. For getting an idea of how it works, click
>soegeside.
>
>Ole Holten Pind
--
Best Wishes,

Lance

-------------
From:
L.S. Cousins,
12 Dynham Place,
Oxford,
OX3 7NL

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn@ntlworld.com

#2171 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 2:42 pm 
Subject: SV: iCPD 

Dear Lance,

Many thanks for your mail. I calculated five years ago that it would take
about three hundred if not four hundred ears to complete the CPD, if we were
to continue like in the old days. I have suggested to the University of
Copenhagen that we continue the CPD by making dictionaries of selected
texts, beginning with the Paatimokkha adding the vocabulary of each major
canonical text to the vocabulary described in the CPD. This would make it
possible to cover the total vocabulary of essential texts, from which it
would be possible to extrapolate. This, I believe, will make the dictionary
much more useful. In short, the idea is to make it a dictionary in the
making, and one that can be corrected or improved upon continually. This is
what I intend to do. One problem is, of course, that in the "modern world"
making a dictionary is just about like digging your own grave. What do you
think ?

Best wishes,
Ole
   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 5. juni 2007 18:43
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] iCPD



Dear Ole,

This is wonderful. I had not heard of this project until now. Do
please tell us a little more about it.

#2172 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 4:01 pm 
Subject: Re: iCPD 

Dear Ole,

Thanks for your suggestion which I'll consider. Here at the cottage, I'm
using a Tashiba laptop that I bought in late 2000 and with the same IE 5.5
browser that came with it. So I think that is probably in need of upgrading
anyway. I can use the online PED on the U of Chicago website with all the
unicode letters displaying correctly. If I copy and paste the results from
iCPD to a word program like WordPad, the letters will read correctly. I
wonder if there might be a problem in the stylesheet (pali05.css) for iCPD
in that there are very few fonts included on the FONT-FAMILY: lines. As an
experiment I added "Gandhari Unicode" and tested it. All the characters
displayed correctly on the bar of letters at the top right of the page but
not sure if it would work the same for the search results.

I think we're also in need of a special dictionary for the technical
language used in the Pali grammatical texts.

Jim

<< I think that you will get around that problem if you use Mozilla. Please try
it out, and see if it works. If you still encounter problems, please let me
know, and I shall look into it. The text is in Gandhari so it should work.
It is very important that it can be used without any problems. >>

#2173 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2007 5:25 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: iCPD

Dear Ole,

Well, some initial thoughts.

Margaret Cone is working on the new PTS dictionary and should
certainly complete the next volume, if not the whole of it. This will
automatically be in a digital form and can then be revised and
expanded relatively easily. But the main problem with what she is
doing is that it is chiefly focussed on the canonical literature and
to a lesser extent the older commentaries. The great value of CPD for
me (apart from its greater thoroughness) has always been the fact
that it covers the later literature.

So I would incline to think more in terms of adding some of the later
texts. I think that would be more valuable, but perhaps not as
popular ! But on the other hand making a Pali dictionary is a
somewhat heroic task; so you should definitely do what you have the
inclination to do. The general idea of creating a 'dictionary in the
making' seems good.

I think I still have a file of the Index of the Mahaaniddesa
somewhere. I could probably convert that to Unicode without
difficulty, if it would be of use. Of course, that is perhaps not a
major canonical text but it does have a lot of less usual vocabulary.

Lance

>Dear Lance,
>
>Many thanks for your mail. I calculated five years ago that it would take
>about three hundred if not four hundred ears to complete the CPD, if we were
>to continue like in the old days. I have suggested to the University of
>Copenhagen that we continue the CPD by making dictionaries of selected
>texts, beginning with the Paatimokkha adding the vocabulary of each major
>canonical text to the vocabulary described in the CPD. This would make it
>possible to cover the total vocabulary of essential texts, from which it
>would be possible to extrapolate. This, I believe, will make the dictionary
>much more useful. In short, the idea is to make it a dictionary in the
>making, and one that can be corrected or improved upon continually. This is
>what I intend to do. One problem is, of course, that in the "modern world"
>making a dictionary is just about like digging your own grave. What do you
>think ?
>
>Best wishes,
>Ole
>

#2174 
From: Everett Thiele <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2007 3:00 am 
Subject: Re: iCPD

This is wonderful. Many thanks, Ole!

best regards,

/Rett

2007-06-05 kl. 15.00 skrev Ole Holten Pind:

> I take the oportunity to inform the group that most of the published
> volumes
>  of CPD have been uploadet at <http://hfg.myx.dk/pali>
> http://hfg.myx.dk/pali The project is in a preliminary stage and not
> every
>  page has been proof read. For getting an idea of how it works, click
>  soegeside.
>
>  Ole Holten Pind

#2175 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2007 2:34 pm 
Subject: SV: SV: iCPD 

Dear Lance,

I appreciate your thoughts. In principle, I think you are right. In fact, it
would be a good idea to start working on the vocabulary of Sp and then go on
to Sv, for example, adding the sub-commentaries bit by bit. My only worry
has been that in order for the project so survive in the modern world of
Academia it needs financial support. This is a problem in itself.
Consequently I came up with the idea of adding manageable bits of early
vocabulary to the dictionary continually, while covering the entire alphabet
doing it. At this juncture I have no idea of whether or not it will be
possible to continue the project. I hope so, but the obscure world of modern
Academia regards projects of this kind as an old-fashioned aberration.

With best wishes,
Ole
   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 5. juni 2007 23:25
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: [palistudy] iCPD

Dear Ole,

Well, some initial thoughts.

Margaret Cone is working on the new PTS dictionary and should
certainly complete the next volume, if not the whole of it. This will
automatically be in a digital form and can then be revised and
expanded relatively easily. But the main problem with what she is
doing is that it is chiefly focussed on the canonical literature and
to a lesser extent the older commentaries. The great value of CPD for
me (apart from its greater thoroughness) has always been the fact
that it covers the later literature.

So I would incline to think more in terms of adding some of the later
texts. I think that would be more valuable, but perhaps not as
popular ! But on the other hand making a Pali dictionary is a
somewhat heroic task; so you should definitely do what you have the
inclination to do. The general idea of creating a 'dictionary in the
making' seems good.

I think I still have a file of the Index of the Mahaaniddesa
somewhere. I could probably convert that to Unicode without
difficulty, if it would be of use. Of course, that is perhaps not a
major canonical text but it does have a lot of less usual vocabulary.

Lance

>Dear Lance,
>
>Many thanks for your mail. I calculated five years ago that it would take
>about three hundred if not four hundred ears to complete the CPD, if we were
>to continue like in the old days. I have suggested to the University of
>Copenhagen that we continue the CPD by making dictionaries of selected
>texts, beginning with the Paatimokkha adding the vocabulary of each major
>canonical text to the vocabulary described in the CPD. This would make it
>possible to cover the total vocabulary of essential texts, from which it
>would be possible to extrapolate. This, I believe, will make the dictionary
>much more useful. In short, the idea is to make it a dictionary in the
>making, and one that can be corrected or improved upon continually. This is
>what I intend to do. One problem is, of course, that in the "modern world"
>making a dictionary is just about like digging your own grave. What do you
>think ?
>
>Best wishes,
>Ole

#2176 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2007 5:03 am 
Subject: iCPD 

All published fascicles of A Critical Pali Dictionary are now accessible at
<http://hfg.myx.dk/pali> http://hfg.myx.dk/pali

Please notice that the scanned pages have not been proof read. You may
occasionally find odd looking characters or signs.

Regards,

Ole Holten Pind

#2177 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2007 10:37 am 
Subject: Re: iCPD 

Dear Ole,

What is the last word in the dictionary? I can remember that it was in the
letter "k", Vol. III, fascicle 6.

if you need any extra help with the proofreading, I'd be willing to help
out.

I'm particularly interested in the dictionary entries for grammatical terms
and have started to make a collection of them for further study. There's a
good possibility that I may be related to the famous philologist and
lexicographer, Sir William A. Craigie (1867-1957), one of the editors of the
Oxford English Dictionary. My great-great grandfather, William Craigie
(1830-1895), and Sir William's father, James Craigie, both married in
villages 5 miles apart in Perthshire, Scotland -- a month and a half apart.

Best wishes,
James Craigie Anderson

> Please notice that the scanned pages have not been proof read. You may
> occasionally find odd looking characters or signs.

#2178 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2007 12:44 pm 
Subject: SV: iCPD 

Dear Jim,

The last word is kaama-dhaatu. It is the last word of fascicle seven,
published in 2001.

It is interesting that you may be related to one of the editors of the
Oxford English Dictionary. I used to have pictures of its editor in chief in
my office. The history of the making of the Oxford English Dictionary tells
a lot about the difficulties lexicographers have to face every minute when
writing a dictionary, especially a dictionary of an ancient language, like
the language of the early Buddhist canon.

I appreciate your offer to help with the proof reading. Unfortunately I have
no idea about how it could be done. Perhaps you have some suggestions?

Best wishes,
Ole


   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 7. juni 2007 16:38
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] iCPD

Dear Ole,

What is the last word in the dictionary? I can remember that it was in the
letter "k", Vol. III, fascicle 6.

#2179 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2007 4:28 pm 
Subject: Re: iCPD

Dear Ole,

<< The last word is kaama-dhaatu. It is the last word of fascicle seven,
published in 2001.>>

Thank-you for this.

<< It is interesting that you may be related to one of the editors of the
Oxford English Dictionary. I used to have pictures of its editor in chief in
my office. The history of the making of the Oxford English Dictionary tells
a lot about the difficulties lexicographers have to face every minute when
writing a dictionary, especially a dictionary of an ancient language, like
the language of the early Buddhist canon. >>

It would be interesting to read the history of the making of O.E.D. I have
the two-volume set of the compact edition of the dictionary which has a lot
to say about its making in the historical introduction. A long time ago I
read the book "Caught in the Web of Words" which is a biography of J.A.H.
Murray (another Scot) and his involvement with O.E.D. as an editor-in-chief.

<< I appreciate your offer to help with the proof reading. Unfortunately I
have no idea about how it could be done. Perhaps you have some suggestions?
>>

I don't know what the situation is in Copenhagen but here I now have access
to iCPD and also the printed fascicles of Vols. I & II in my possession. I
could retrieve the entries of a particular range from the website and check
them against the printed version and send the corrections to you over the
internet. I don't know how well this would work though. I'm no spring
chicken at age 60 and my eyes aren't like they used to be. But it might be
worth a try and I'd do it for free.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2180 
From: Peter Masefield <petermasefield@yahoo.com.au> 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:03 pm 
Subject: iCPD 

Dear Ole,

I have been getting the following message when trying to open the CPD site over
the last few days.  I presume the site is down for some reason, but thought I
would check.

With best wishes,
Peter.

Forbidden You don't have permission to access /pali5/index.html on this server.

---------------------------------
  Apache/2.2.4 (Fedora) Server at hfg.myx.dk Port 80

---------------------------------

#2181 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:37 am 
Subject: SV: iCPD 

Dear Peter and others,

Traffic has been overwhelming and we have to move the iCPD to another
server. I just have to ask for patience. When it has been moved and we are
ready to go online, I shall notify you immediately.

With best wishes,
Ole
   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Peter Masefield
Sendt: 20. juni 2007 20:03
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] iCPD

Dear Ole,

I have been getting the following message when trying to open the CPD site
over the last few days. I presume the site is down for some reason, but
thought I would check.

With best wishes,
Peter.

Forbidden You don't have permission to access /pali5/index.html on this
server.

---------------------------------
Apache/2.2.4 (Fedora) Server at hfg.myx.dk Port 80

---------------------------------

#2182 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:24 pm 
Subject: Re: iCPD 

> It is interesting that you may be related to one of the editors of the
> Oxford English Dictionary. I used to have pictures of its editor in chief in
> my office. The history of the making of the Oxford English Dictionary tells
> a lot about the difficulties lexicographers have to face every minute when
> writing a dictionary, especially a dictionary of an ancient language, like
> the language of the early Buddhist canon.

Indeed, making a dictionary for Pali, Sanskrit, etc., is very
different from producing one for the English language (which is very
young, with a short history, by comparison).  Sadly, this seems to be
too-rarely appreciated by those who make dictionaries themselves.

I very much appreciate lexicographical works that are specific to one
historical period, such as Woolner's "dictionary" for the Ashokan
Inscriptions.  I would be very interested if a small team were to
propose a lexicon for (e.g.) just the Culla-vangsa and Pali works of
the same period; this could then be compared to early sutta material,
to assist in identifying what really is a latter
interpolation/accretion, etc.

But if none of the lexicons are period-specific, then all of the
business of assigning dates to usages becomes absurd (with the
exception of very focussed studies, that are the result of one scholar
working in isolation, e.g., some of K.R. Norman's work).  The whole
debate over "Magadhisms" is an unflattering example of this.

I have never found an article on the distinctive aspects of "Vinaya
Pali", which is at least 500 years younger than some of the oldest,
and also has more "Jain-Prakrit" elements.  All of this is important
work for lexicographers --but a "lone scholar" (such as myself) cannot
possibly take it on.

Writing dictionaries is not done by men, but by armies.

E.M.

#2183 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:34 am 
Subject: SV: iCPD
_____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 5. juli 2007 05:25
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] iCPD

> The whole debate over "Magadhisms" is an unflattering example of this. <

Yes, indeed. In 1997 I pointed out at a conference in Warsaw that the
distribution in the Pali canon of the vocatives bhikkhave and bhikkhavo
shows that bhikkhave never occurs in verse and never initially in prose,
unlike bhikkhavo which only occurs in verse and in sentence initial position
in prose. In short, bhikkhave is an enclitic vocative. Although bhikkhave is
a favorite example of Magadhisms among MI scholars, it seems obvious that
its use is intrinsic to the language as such and cannot be interpreted as a
Magadhism per se:  the use of the two forms are obviously defined by their
syntactical properties.

Ole Holten Pind

#2184 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:50 am 
Subject: Re: iCPD 

Dr Pind,

We seem to agree on everything --I will have to imagine something to
be disagreeable about.

Although I had never explained the "-ave" ending by reference to
enclitic, I have long made myself unpopular by arguing that the
supposed "irregularity" of Bhikkhu is a myth.  This myth has has been
used to prop up and/or illustrate a wide variety of theories
--presumably because it is mentioned in many lectures in undergraduate
courses.

Trying to prove the geographic origin of the suttapitaka with
reference to the final vowel of the vocative is as absurd with Bhikkhu
as it would be with Manas.  People imagine that they are learning
something about the intrinsic meaning of words when they learn they
are "irregular" --or when any other English adjective is applied to
them.  I recall an absurd article from a Feminist, offering an
overwrought "debate" about the problem that the word Bhikkhu is
gender-specific, but celebrating the "fact" that certain other words
and adjectives related to Bodhi, Buddha, etc., "have no gender".

This is absurd on too many levels to explain --and explanation would
only detract from the comedic value.

There is some irregular use of Pali to be found in the quotations from
heterodox monks in the AP:KV --but the fact that these irregularities
are ONLY put into the mouths of non-Theravada speakers completely
undermines the assumption that they tell us something "intrinsic"
about the language (or location!) of early Pali authors.

I found (and reported to this list) one odd attempt at a lexicon based
on the Abhidhamma and the word-glosses provided in its commentaries
... again, it seems to me that any period-specific lexicography of
this kind is more useful (and, perhaps, easier to staff).

The semantic shifts between Vedic and Pali are a very different
problem from examining the changes in the language within the canon
(and, indeed, in paracanonical works) --or Pali's interactions with
the various Prakrits.  I suppose I will not live long enough to see
much progress in this area --and I certainly have nothing to
contribute to it myself.

E.M.

#2185 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:43 am 
Subject: One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography 

(1) I would also appreciate any information you might have (perhaps
even a link to a website) on misc. lingual symbols used in
lexicography --not phonetics, but misc. such as the obelus, the use of
the "degree" symbol to indicate the repetition of a preciously stated
root, standard symbols for derivation, etc. --my problem being that
none of the dictionaries I actually have make use of any such symbols
in a standardized or consistent way. Ideally I would also like to know
the Latin/Greek names for these symbols, as (e.g., obelus) this is the
only way to find the Unicode entity corresponding thereunto.

(2) I would appreciate any information you might have on the special
Burmese ".d.dhu" glyph (viz., retroflex "d" + retroflex aspirate "dh"
+ "u" forming one peculiar glyph) --in my Burmese edition of Kacc,
this is drawn as if the latter glyph were miniaturized and then
inserted within the former (with u below, but no subscript consonant
whatsoever).  What I *DO NOT KNOW* is whether this is more a matter of
vernacular or classical orthography --or if it is an acceptable
variant for both.


E.M.

#2186 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:54 am 
Subject: Pali MS in Maha-Sarakham report 

Here is a brief report on my findings in Maha-Sarakham, Thailand.

The manuscript collection is both catalogued and accessible.  Its size
is reported as "roughly 1,000", however, only 41 bundles are in Pali
(less than one half of 1 percent).  The Pali texts are kept in a
separate cupboard, and a list of their titles occupies only a single
page.

The collection owes its existence to a small number of enterprising
monks (most or all of whom are now deceased and memorialized
accordingly) and the MS remain the legal property of "Maha-Chai"
temple (actually pronounced "Wat Mahaa-Sai") but, in fact, are shared
between the temple property and three campuses belonging to two
universities.

All three of these campuses were worth visiting (for someone of my
interests) --but they are separated by significant geographic
distances (seeming like separate cities).

Some description of the universities and facilities will be of
practical value, and so follows:
   * The two universities are "Rajapak" (to which name the toponym
"Maha-Sarakham" is often added) and "Maha-Sarakham University" proper,
contracted to "MSU".
   * Rajapak has the smaller facility for MS studies, however, both
their offices and the small museum displaying both MS and a few
statues and stones are very charming (moreso than the larger
campuses).  I met and spoke with two professors, the more senior of
whom is the Prof. Emeritus Pratuan Bunbpok, who described their
current work as translating Issan-Buhan and "Tai-Noi" texts into
modern Thai; I surmise that they may comprise the entire MS-staff for
that department, but (by Canadian standards) this is neither small nor
insignificant. They directed me to the larger campuses' departments
regarding Pali, and were quite helpful.  They were the only professors
to test me, confronting me with a mixed (nissaya) text in old Lao-Tham
script, which I correctly "sussed out" to their delight.
   * MSU ("Maha-Sarakham University" per se) has an "old campus" (1 km
from Rajapak) and a "new campus" (perhaps more than 15 km from the
former) --both are a withering distance away from the city of
Maha-Sarakham (on the road to Kalasin), requiring that you decode the
system of busses (yellow truck-busses connect the old campus to the
new, and blue truck-busses connect to the city).  The total number of
students exceeds 20,000, and the new campus is built on the "American
Suburban" model of architecture (viz., heroic in scale, antagonistic
in its layout).
   * The "Issan culture hall" ("Hoh Sinh", viz., "Hoh Silapa") is a
massive edifice on the old campus, with an "information centre" on the
second floor, flanked by another (larger) musem, very nicely
displaying both MS, old stones, and traditional wicker-ware.  There is
a secretary of sorts here, who can contact and direct you to the
department you are actually seeking (not easily found).
   * The offices of the "Bai-Lan" (MS) department are on the new
campus, and fairly well hidden in an unremarkable concrete leviathan
of a building (this is a contrast to the relative charm of buildings
previously mentioned, Rajapak having blossoming "Dok Champa" trees
around its MS offices).
   * To add to the confusion, MSU also has a Museum _per se_, which is
actually much less of a museum than any of the aforementioned (just
displaying recreations of traditional wood architecture and implements
for hunting, weaving, etc.), but is a very nice place to sit in the
shade and watch the peacocks at the zoo.  I would be remiss if I did
not mention that it features possibly the nicest bathrooms in the
continent of Asia.  At this Museum I met the young professor Apichat
(nicknamed "Dtoh") who studies old vernacular literature.  A
considerable number of MS are housed at this Museum, too (catalogued
on the same system).
   * Further MS are found in affiliated collections in Loi-Et and
Kalasin, catalogued at MSU (they do not seem to have extended their
system to include Yasothon).

MSU requires all of its MS/Thai-literature students to learn
rudimentary Pali (viz., the alphabet and a few broad generalizations)
and, accordingly, there is one professor of Pali given the un-enviable
task of enforcing this policy for hundreds of undergraduate students a
year, who must learn this "bare minimum" (and likely will do less than
that).

This professor is Samay Vanaudorn.

Samay appeared to be about the same age as myself (viz., under 30) and
seemed to me a highly intelligent, highly capable man, with a
compendious knowledge of local history (the latter is rare).  I did
not test his ability in Pali, nor did he test mine.

As with everyone I spoke to, he remarked (after I described my current
project) that the study of Kaccayana was indeed extremely important,
but that nobody bothered to undertake it, as the system set up by Rama
V was easier, and led to rather more earthly rewards for those who
complied with it.

He reported that one of the great (but deceased) monks had carefully
examined all of the Kaccayana MS encountered, and had assembled at
least one that was entirely complete.  He provided me with the
citation details for a Kaccayana MS (with an uncertain degree of Lao
translation) running to fully 17 bundles, which purports itself to be
over 500 years old.  Certainly, 200-year-old MS are common in the
collection (perhaps reflecting a certain period of pillaging that I
will not digress to describe from Thai history) so this is not
entirely impossible --but I did not see the MS in question.

I would assume that even a 300 year old Kacc. would be of interest
--especially if the Lao commentary were any good.

I expressed my concern about the theft of MS, and they showed me
photographs of several of the security measures they had undertaken,
which included (e.g.) building towers to house the MS to which there
were no stairs whatsoever.  They also reported that while many guilded
MS-covers and cases had been stolen in the past, the leaves as such
were rarely (if ever) stolen; the thieves preferred to take the wood
and gold, then leave the text as a mess upon the floor.  I have not
heard this reported before.

Further on Kacc.: they reported that one temple around Ubon R. (closer
to Cambodia, on the S.E. of the Issan Plateau) had attempted a revival
of Kacc. scholarship some 70-80 years ago (the tradition has been dead
for at least 200 years, if it ever was alive here); one of the
memorable aspects of this tradition was requiring the monks to sleep
with their heads on cocoanut-shells.  Soon after they drifted off to
sleep, their heads would slip off of the (unsteady and uncomfortable)
shells, and they would return to study.

They also described to me a period of six months under the reign of
Rama the 8th (viz., with Phibun as generalissimo) during which
Lao-Tham MS were burned in pyres.  This purge of Pali MS lasted (as
stated) for only six months, but was devastating, and they said that
only a small number of old MS were saved by monks who hid them from
the authorities.  This was part of the enforced-assimilation policies
of the day (for which there was some precedent, albeit less violent,
under Rama 6th) --evidently an historical episode of extreme
significance, but one that I have never read mentioned in any source.

Now it is hardly surprising that this would be deleted from official
Thai historiography, which is a shameless fiction (I had to laugh when
one of the museums here described the incineration and looting of
Vientiane as Royal "influence extending to Vientiane" --influential
indeed!) --but nothing I have read deals with this, and it is
obviously of importance to understanding the period in both countries
(Lao & Thailand) --and may even shed light on the untimely death of
Rama 8th himself (about which almost nothing specific ever dares be
written).

Wat Maha-Chai itself is situated within the city of Maha-Sarakham
(rather far from all of the other locations mentioned) within walking
distance of the bus-station and the obligatory Tesco-Lotus shopping
mall.

The more scholarly monks were away at the time of our visit (viz.,
examining MS in nearby Kalasin) and the one monk we spoke with was
helpful in allowing us to unwrap, examine, and re-wrap three MS, but
who repeated many of the common misunderstandings as to exactly what
Pali is.

There is cofusion here (as everywhere) as to how Phasa-Pali,
Phasa-Tham, and old vernaculars overlap.

The university and temple have a cooperative programme to educate
local children in reading and writing using the ancient "Tham" script
--albeit for the vernacular.  They had a few drawings by the children
with Tham-script text, basically used to state modern Lao.

Those who visit the temple first will be disappointed, as all of the
required resources are at the University, and they will be directed to
use the cataloge there; further, the temple itself is neither
beautiful nor outwardly remarkable --one could easily wander through
it without guessing that it had any such collection at all.  It
features the usual concrete architecture of modern Thailand,
"decorated" with cartoonish statues of animals (zebras, lions, etc.)
and other flotsam and jetsam.

In explanation as to why nobody could read Pali, and nobody was
learning or teaching Pali at this temple, the monk remarked that it
didn't matter, as the entire Pali canon had been translated into Lao.
This is not true, but it is remarkable that some people believe it
(inclduing a vague remark from Dr. Dr. Harald Hundius in D. Wharton's
book).  He indicated to us a valut labelled as containing a complete
"Dipidok" (Tripitaka) in Lao translation of 200 years' vintage; in
fact, it contains a miscellany of vernacular MS, having nothing in
common (viz., neither a "translation" nor "complete") except that they
may all be roughly said to be 200 years old.  I unwrapped two from
this casket --neither had a word of Pali in them (and I doubt that
their content has much to do with the Tipitaka).

The collection is kept in a massive room with a valuted cieling, and
(entirely necessary) electrical fans.  Small desks and chairs are
available.

This report contains only the information I consider to be most useful
--and perhaps sounds dismal for that reason.  I am in fact very
optimistic about the environs (both academic and otherwise) and will
seriously consider relocating to the area after I complete my work in
Bokeo province (Laos).

For those who are not monks (or not yet monks) I now feel that I must
mention that Maha-Sarakham is the only university town I have ever
visited in Thailand in which the prohibition against short skirts and
tight blouses has, in fact, succeeded.  In contrast to every other
University I have seen here, the absence of shocking attire was itself
shocking. I do not know if this reflects a lack of rebellious spirit
among the female students here (who are the great majority) or if they
exercise this spirit by means more subversive.

E.M.

#2187 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:14 am 
Subject: Re: One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography 

Dear Eisel,

I don't know much about what you're asking about and besides I'm away from
most of my resources (until Thursday) to be of much help. I think I can
respond with a few remarks though.

> in a standardized or consistent way. Ideally I would also like to know
> the Latin/Greek names for these symbols, as (e.g., obelus) this is the
> only way to find the Unicode entity corresponding thereunto.

I'm not familiar with the obelus but did find the following Unicode name:
U+070B : SYRIAC HARKLEAN OBELUS. There is also a U+070B : SYRIAC HARKLEAN
METOBELUS. Not sure if this is what you have in mind but it's all that came
up in my Unicode text editor's search tool.

> whatsoever).  What I *DO NOT KNOW* is whether this is more a matter of
> vernacular or classical orthography --or if it is an acceptable
> variant for both.

I think this Burmese representation of the conjunct /.d.dha/ more likely
belongs to the set of special Burmese characters used for writing Pali and
Sanskrit i.e. classical orthography. Some months ago, I was looking over the
Unicode range of Burmese characters and found that I couldn't write much
Pali with these characters which are more suited for the Burmese vernacular
which doesn't seem to have much in the way of the conjuncts used in Pali.
This left me wondering if they've even gotten around to including these
special characters in Unicode. The character that you see is also used in my
1929 edn. of Mmd.

Thanks for your Maha-Sarakham report.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2188 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:31 pm 
Subject: Re: One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography 

Hi Jim,

   The obelus (nothing to do with Syriac) is used to mark corrupt text,
among other things, in old European manuscripts, etc.

   As I recall, old Latin MS just show the obelus as a kind of flat
line, and it is now most often drawn as a stylized "dagger".

   I am generally dis-satisfied with the use of mathematical symbols in
place of linguistic ones (e.g. in lexicons) but I am truly without
alternative at the moment.

   Re: Burmese Unicode, I would re-iterate that you can buy a classical
Burmese font from Xenotypetech.com that works on a Mac and has each
and every Pali ligature except for three obscure ones, which have been
reported (by myself) and will be incorporated as fixes in the next
version.

   The whole world of Burmese font-making is now in a state of
suspense, as the Junta has declared that they will change Unicode
(which was, theoretically, never supposed to be changed) precisely in
order to accomodate Pali.

   The new encoding will, e.g., differentiate the "high /a/" vowel from
the "low /a/" vowel marker.

   Until that time, nobody wants to waste their efforts making fonts
that will soon be obsolete.

   Nevertheless, both presently and after the presaged update,
Xenotypetech is and will be providing full Burmese-script support that
includes ALL classical ligatures for Pali.

   I remain very unconvinced about .d.dh+u --viz., classical or modern.
  I would be interested in evidence from MS, rather than printed
editions (as the latter use modern vernacular style typefaces).

E.M.

#2189 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:59 am 
Subject: Re: One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography 

Eisel,

>   The obelus (nothing to do with Syriac) is used to mark corrupt text,
> among other things, in old European manuscripts, etc.
>
>   As I recall, old Latin MS just show the obelus as a kind of flat
> line, and it is now most often drawn as a stylized "dagger".

Besides the flat line (looks to me like an em dash), it was also written
with a dot above and below like a division sign. The Epilegomena to Vol. I
of _A Critical Pali Dictionary_ has on pp. 35-6* a list of 15 signs used in
the dictionary. Included is the "crux philologorum" (= the dagger) used
before a corrupt text-element.

Jim

#2190 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:52 am 
Subject: Re: One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography 

Hi Jim,

   The issue with linguistic and lexicographic symbols is related to my
desire to encourage Asian to actually read my book.

   Even when sitting with (e.g.) very well-educated Sinhalese who speak
fluent English, abbreviations such as "pr.p.p." are bewildering.

   What would a Cambodian make of the use of the mathematical symbol
for "square root"?  Simply because we use the same word in English for
the math of "square roots" and "root words" does not mean that people
from other cultural backgrounds will appreciate the pun.

   Even with symbols such as "approximately equal to", etc., I find
myself wishing for definitive (lexical or linguisitc) symbols to
denote root words, derivations and variations.

  Initially, I had thought that I could side-step the issue by using
Pali terms wherever possible --but, in fact, almost all Pali technical
terms for grammar post-date Kacc. (the text only uses a few) so this
can create as many problems as it solves.

   Re: "crux philologorum", I shall forthwith disband my former quartet
named "obelus" and plan a resounding comback album under the new name
you've suggested.

E.M.

#2191 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 10:02 am 
Subject: sudden death of Dr. Primoz Pecenko 

Dear Members,

I thought I should forward this on from another list. The world has
lost an excellent Pali scholar.

Jim

From: mark.allon@usyd.edu.au
Subject: Primoz Pecenko
Date: August 6, 2007 3:52:33 PM CDT
To: H-BUDDHISM@H-NET.MSU.EDU


It is with great sadness that we must inform you of the sudden and
unexpected death of Dr Primoz Pecenko, Senior Lecturer in Eastern
Religions and Co-Director of the Centre for Buddhist Studies at the
University of Queensland. Primoz was also an Executive committee member
of the Australasian Association of Buddhist Studies (AABS), a friend to
many of us, and an important contributor to our organization. Primoz
suffered a heart attack on the evening of the 1st August while out
walking with his family and dog. This was a few days short of his 60th
birthday.

Primoz, who completed a Masters degree at Pune in India and a PhD at the
Australian National University, was a major figure in Buddhist Studies
in Australia and his passing represents a great loss to our discipline.
He and his wife, Dr Tamara Ditrich, with whom he shared the positions at
the University of Queensland, have worked tirelessly to maintain
Buddhist Studies at the University of Queensland and to promote Buddhist
Studies in Australia.

Primoz's specialization was in Pali commentarial literature,
particularly the sub-commentaries (.tiikaa), a field that has been
little researched. One of his major contributions to this field is his
edition of the sub-commentary on the Anguttaranikaya
(Anguttaranikayatika. 3 vols. to date, Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1996,
1997, 1999). A fourth volume was in progress. This represents only the
second critical edition of a Pali sub-commentary. Primoz also
contributed to our understanding of this class of Pali literature
through several important articles, including "Sariputta and his works"
(Journal of the Pali Text Society 23, 1997: 159-79) and
"Linatthapakasini and Saratthamanjusa: The Puranatikas and the Tikas on
the Four Nikayas" (Journal of the Pali Text Society 27, 2002: 61-113).
Primoz presented a stimulating paper in the AABS seminar series on Pali
commentarial literature, entitled "Pali texts and their manuscripts: a
case of 'lost' manuscripts mentioned in old Pali bibliographic sources,"
in April, 2006.

Many of Primoz's publications are in his native tongue, Slovenian. This
includes numerous Slovenian translations of Pali texts, such as the
Dhammapada (2001) and Milindapanha (1989, 1990), plus translations of
individual suttas, such as the Mahasatipatthana-sutta (1988).

At the time of his death, Primoz was engaged in several important and
interesting research projects. One entailed editing a Pali commentarial
text that was previously thought to have been lost, but was discovered
by him in Burma. Apart from making this text available to scholars in
the form of a critical edition, this work promised to throw light on the
creation of commentaries, the nature of the commentarial project, and
other hitherto little understood aspects of this field. Another research
project entailed the study of the Kuthodaw Pagoda Inscriptional Complex
in Burma, which would have helped to establish the relationship between
this "edition" of the Pali canon and other versions current in the
Theravada Buddhist world. It further promised to contribute towards our
understanding of textual authority in Buddhist communities. Primoz was
also working on Buddhist meditation in theory and practice and Pali
bibliographic texts.

Much of Primoz's research was funded by grants from such prestigious
bodies as the Pali Text Society, the Australian Research Council, and
ANU and University of Queensland research fellowships.

At the University of Queensland Primoz taught Pali, Sanskrit, and
courses on Buddhism, Hinduism, and World Religion, and supervised
numerous postgraduate students including many international students. He
was well-respected and liked by his students and will be greatly missed.

Primoz's premature death robs us of a wonderful colleague, an admired
teacher, and a great Pali scholar, who undoubtedly would have gone on to
improve our understanding of Pali texts, specifically Pali commentarial
literature.

The Executive Committee of the AABS would like to extend our condolences
to Tamara and Alexander, Primoz's son. We wish them strength at this
difficult time.

#2192 
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:36 am 
Subject: Rare Buddhist Sanskrit book titles at BPS 

Hello,

Perhaps it is of interest for members of this group to know that some rare
and difficult to obtain Buddhist Sanskrit books, a translation, and a
commemoration volume from the Jayaswal Institute at Patna are available at
the Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy.

Bhikkhu Nyanatusita


*Books from K.P. Jayaswal Research Institute, Patna *

The following books were acquired with considerable trouble by the BPS from
the K. P. Jayaswal Institute. Only if one goes there in person, one can get
the books and even then there might be complications with mailing, etc. The
books can now be ordered from the Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri
Lanka (www.bps.lk). The amount of copies is limited (9 copies at most of
each title) and these books might be out of stock soon. It does not seem
likely that we can get these books again in the near future. Orders can be
placed by sending an email to the administrative secretary at bps@sltnet.lk

*English Roman script books*

Bhikshuni Vinaya, Edited by Gustav Roth, Tibetan Sanskrit Works Series Vol.
XII, pp.500, 2005 reprint (photocopy) of 1970 edition. $ 17,-

Monastic Discipline for the Buddhist Nuns, by Prof. Akira Hirakawa, Tibetan
Sanskrit Works Series Vol. XXI, 452pp. 1999, $ 15,-

K.P. Jayaswal Commemorative Volume, General editor, J.S. Jha. pp.563,1981, $
20,- (Only 2 copies available)

The Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dharmapada, (Patna Dhammapada), Edited by N.S.
Shukla, Tibetan Sanskrit Works Series Vol. XIX 92pp., 1979, $ 2,- The covers
have gone loose and the books will need to be rebound, which can be done at
the BPS on request.

*Devanagiri Script (with English introductions)*

Bhikshupratimoksasutra of the Mahasamghika Lokattaravadin, Edited by Dr. N.
Taita. Tibetan Sanskrit Works Series. Devanagari
Script, English preface, pp.40, 1975, $ 3,-

Bodhisattvabhumi, Edited by Dr. N. Dutt, Devanagiri script with 40pp.
English introduction. 340pp.1978. $ 8,-

Sravakabhumi, Edited by K. Shukla.. Devanagiri script with English
introduction (85pp.) and some footnotes in Roman script. 616pp, 1966 Price $
12,-

Abhidharmapradipa (2nd edition) by Dr. P.S. Jaini. With 130pp. English
introduction. 630pp. 1977, $12,-


--
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Forest Hermitage
Udawattakele
PO Box 61
Kandy
Sri Lanka

#2193 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:54 am 
Subject: article on Pali lexicography 

Dear members,

I recently came across a reference to the following archived article on
JSTOR:

<< Contributions to Pali Lexicography: Part I
Eugene Watson Burlingame
The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 41, No. 1 (1920), pp. 69-75
doi:10.2307/289504
This article consists of 7 page(s). >>

The article can be downloaded off the web if you're a student or a staff
member of one of the many participating universities. Unfortunately, I'm not
one of them and so do not have direct access to this article which I would
very much like to read. I'm hoping that one of our list-members would have
this article on his computer or could get it and email me a copy. This would
be very much appreciated and the article could then be made available for
other interested list-members as well.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2194 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:48 am 
Subject: Re: article on Pali lexicography 

Just letting the other members know that I have been contacted off-list and
should be getting a copy of the article in a couple of days. So there's no
need for anyone else to try and get it. The matter is being taken care of.

Jim

> Dear members,
>
> I recently came across a reference to the following archived article on
> JSTOR:
>
> << Contributions to Pali Lexicography: Part I
> Eugene Watson Burlingame
> The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 41, No. 1 (1920), pp. 69-75
> doi:10.2307/289504
> This article consists of 7 page(s). >>

#2195 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:45 am 
Subject: Re: article on Pali lexicography Dear Members,

I received a copy of the article sooner than expected. If anyone else is
interested in receiving a copy, please contact me off-list. The article
can also be acquired from jstor.org. The file is in pdf format (298KB). The
table of contents is as follows:

1. Previous Etymologies of anamatagga.
2. The True Etymology and Meaning of anamatagga.
3. Synopsis of the Anamatagga Sa.myutta.
4. Illustrations from the Legends of the Saints.
5. Etymology and Meaning of Praakrit a.navayagga.
6. Etymology and Meaning of Sanskrit anavaraagra.

The article starts off with:

V.-- CONTRIBUTIONS TO PALI LEXICOGRAPHY.

PART I.

Paali ana-matagga       ' having no conceivable beginning '
Praakrit a.na-vayagga  ' having no conceivable beginning '
Sanskrit an-avaraagra  ' having no starting-point in the past '

   It is no exaggeration to say that the ana-matagga, the stock
epithet of the sa"msaara, is the most extraordinary and highly
significant word in the Paali language. Apparently, few scholars
who have dealt with the word seem to have read what is perhaps
the most remarkable chapter of the Sa"myutta Nikaaya -- the
Anamatagga Sa"myutta; and the few who did read it failed to
grasp the fundamental thought that runs through the chapter
from the first word to the last, --- the thought, namely, of the
beginningless character of the round of existences.  It is the
purpose of this paper to settle, if possible, the etymology and
meaning of this most remarkable word.

> << Contributions to Pali Lexicography: Part I
> Eugene Watson Burlingame
> The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 41, No. 1 (1920), pp. 69-75
> doi:10.2307/289504
> This article consists of 7 page(s). >>

Best wishes,
Jim

#2196 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:19 pm 
Subject: Re: article on Pali lexicography 

Jim,

I would appreciate a copy of the .pdf, if possible.

>Dear Members,
>
>I received a copy of the article sooner than expected. If anyone else is
>interested in receiving a copy, please contact me off-list. The article
>can also be acquired from jstor.org. The file is in pdf format (298KB). The
>table of contents is as follows:
>
>1. Previous Etymologies of anamatagga.
>2. The True Etymology and Meaning of anamatagga.
>3. Synopsis of the Anamatagga Sa.myutta.
>4. Illustrations from the Legends of the Saints.
>5. Etymology and Meaning of Praakrit a.navayagga.
>6. Etymology and Meaning of Sanskrit anavaraagra.

--
Best Wishes,

Lance

-------------
From:
L.S. Cousins,
12 Dynham Place,
Oxford,
OX3 7NL

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn@ntlworld.com

#2197 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2007 12:59 am 
Subject: Milindapaha or Milindapahaa 

Dear members,

Western scholars usually spell the Pali title of this work as
Milindapaha, however this seems incorrect. Like Theragth, the title
probably needs to be plural because it means the "questions (/pah/) of
Milinda" not "the question (/paha/) of Milinda." In the /Milindapah
/Pali itself (p. 419) the work is called /Milindapah/:

/Iti chasu kaesu bvsativaggapatimaitesu dvsahi-adhik dvesat
imasmi potthake gat _milindapah samatt_, angat ca pana
dvcattls honti, gat ca angat ca sabb samodhnetv cathi adhik
tisatapah honti, s_abbva milindapah ti sakha gacchanti._ :/
"Complete are the questions of Milinda (milindapah), handed down in
six sections,  there are 304 questions, all these are reckoned as the
questions of Milinda (milindapah). (Mil 419)

However, the text (Be) concludes with /Milindapaho ni.t.thito/, which
is singular masculine. In this case one needs to take /paho/ as an
action noun inquiring, questioningand the compound as an instrumental
tappurisa: The Questioning by Milinda or The Inquiry by Milinda or
the The Interrogation by Milinda.

What is the correct Pali title?

Best wishes,

Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

Kandy
Sri Lanka

#2198 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 4:41 am 
Subject: SV: Milindapaha or Milindapahaa

The commentators quote Mil saying that such and such a passage is found in
Milindapanhe (loc.). This would indicate that Milindapanha (m. or n.?) was
current at the time of Buddhaghosa who quotes a (corrupt?) passage at Spk II
99, referring to Milindapanhe. However, the title must have presented a
problem to the tradition because in the Sasanavamsa it is given as converted
to a feminine noun in aa: Milindapanhaayam. Some even refer to the reading
Milindapanhaa. Interestingly Milindapanho (m.) hardly ever occurs. The
locative Milindapanhe on the other hand is frequent by comparison.
I have sometimes wondered whether the correct title should be Milindapanham
(n.). Worktitles in the neuter are not uncommon. Cf., for instance,
Kaccaayanam (n.) the grammar by Kaccaayana.

With best wishes
Ole Holten Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Nyanatusita
Sendt: 1. september 2007 06:59
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Milindapaha or Milindapahaa

Dear members,

Western scholars usually spell the Pali title of this work as Milindapaha,
however this seems incorrect. Like Theragth, the title probably needs to
be plural because it means the "questions (/pah/) of Milinda" not "the
question (/paha/) of Milinda." In the /Milindapah /Pali itself (p. 419)
the work is called /Milindapah/:

/Iti chasu kaesu bvsativaggapatimaitesu dvsahi-adhik dvesat
imasmi potthake gat _milindapah samatt_, angat ca pana dvcattls
honti, gat ca angat ca sabb samodhnetv cathi adhik tisatapah
honti, s_abbva milindapah ti sakha gacchanti._ :/ "Complete are the
questions of Milinda (milindapah), handed down in six sections,  there
are 304 questions, all these are reckoned as the questions of Milinda
(milindapah). (Mil 419)

However, the text (Be) concludes with /Milindapaho ni.t.thito/, which is
singular masculine. In this case one needs to take /paho/ as an action noun
inquiring, questioningand the compound as an instrumental
tappurisa: The Questioning by Milinda or The Inquiry by Milinda or the
The Interrogation by Milinda.

What is the correct Pali title?

Best wishes,

Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

Kandy
Sri Lanka

#2199 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 8:42 pm 
Subject: Re: Milindapaha or Milindapahaa 

Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,

I think the title "Kaccaayanasutta.m" shares the same problem with
"Milindapa~nho" in that "-sutta.m" is collectively referring to all the 673
or so suttas without any commentary. The Saddaniiti has a rule showing four
uses of the singular to express many things -- the first being for
collective nouns like "sa"ngho", the second for class (jaati) nouns like
"sasso" (corn), the third for words like "Saavatthii" in the sense of "the
inhabitants of Saavatthii", the fourth for expressing the characteristic of
oneness or a unity (ekattalakkha.na) in compounds such as kusalaakusala.m"
and "tilakkha.na.m".  See Sd 668 Samudaaya-jaati-nissay'-ekattalakkha.nesv
ekavacana.m.  I'm not sure where our two titles would fit in, if at all.

Best wshes,
Jim

#2200 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:40 am 
Subject: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

Re: 1-5-1

OPS 38: "[This verse] states that 'in some cases the final a of
putha gets the augment g before a vowel.' The vutti quotes the example
puthag eva which is recorded neither in the canon nor in the
A.t.thakathaas. It is difficult to believe, however, that Kacc describes
occurrences that are not instantiated."

I have found one instance in an e-text of the Abhidhammatthasa?gaha,
p. 248, as follows: aaramma.nantarehi amisso puthageva koci upanissayoti
vutta? hoti.  It also appears in the neo-Pali work Jinava?sadiipa? (p.
502), which is, no doubt, a product of the rule above rather than
truly instantiating it, as with its appearances in later grammatical
works.

Here's my current translation of the verse (subject to change):

{Sutta:} Putha sometimes [takes on] g as an augment [where followed by] a vowel.
{Vutti:} In the same way [as the foregoing rules], where the ending of
putha [stands] opposite a vowel, [it] sometimes [takes on the] the
letter g as a euphonic augment.
{Note:} [This rule is addressed to the adjective puthu where it forms
the first part of a compound and ends with an -a.  From the
perspective of the Pali language, the word is puthu (and will be found
spelled as such in the dictionaries), not putha; however, both here
and in the eighth verse of this chapter, it is evident that the
author(s) of the verse thought of this word in terms of its Vedic
etymology, viz., the roots pṛthag and pṛthu (cf. 1-5-8, with which
this verse is reciprocal).]
{e.g.} [Thus, puthu + eva may very rarely result in:] Puthageva.
{Note:} [Or, with reference to its etymology, the example may be
explained as pṛthag + eva = puthageva; it is not entirely rare for
euphonic augments to restore archaic features that had dropped out of
the language in the period of the canon's compilation.  However, the
particular instance described by this rule is so rare that OPS §38
suggests it does not exist (cf. notes to the Pali text).]
Why only "sometimes"? [Because the rule is not absolute, and so the
same example may be written:] putha eva.

#2201 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:41 am 
Subject: Kacc 1-4-12 (query, "agyaagaara?") 

Under the sub-rule to 1-4-12 (discussed by Dr. Pind in his article)

I wonder at the example agyaagaara?.  Is the point here that agga + ya +
agaara? = agyaagaara? (viz., agga + ya becomes agya rather than aggya)?
Vidyabhusana's "scan" of this example doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm currently translating the sub-rule as follows (subject to change):

We are to infer from [the verse's use of] "and" that [wherever] three
[consonants are adjoined] in the middle [of a word or compound,] one
of the identical pair [may be] elided, such as with: [forming a
compound word from agga + ya + agaara? =] agyaagaara? [viz., eliding one
g to avoid the triple compound ggy. Similarly, the sequence tty is
avoided by dropping one t where vutti + assa = vutyassa, as in the
phrase:] pa.tisantaaravutyassa.

I would also note that the main rule is not (explicitly) restricted to
identical pairs, but to any "adjoined consonants", which would seem to
me to include, e.g., "ddh" and "kkh" (viz., not exclusively "dd",
"kk", etc.) --although the later layers of the text do not flesh out
this possibility left open by the rule. 

#2202 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 2:42 am 
Subject: Kacc. example, "parakkamo" 

Vidyabhusana explains _parakkamo_ as pa+a+kamo (with the "r" as a
euphonic insertion); the more obvious explanation would be para+kamo.
None of my dictionaries treat the word (perhaps because the prefix
"para" is self-evident) --is there a good reason for Vidyabhusana  to
propose pa+a rather than para?

#2203 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 4:38 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

The example from Abhidh-s-mh.t is given in the PTS edition too (p.
190,5) and in the corresponding passage from the same author's
Abhidh-av-.t (e-text corr. to Be II 368). But of course these are
texts which may be influenced by the grammatical literature where
puthag eva  seems to be a standard example.

Do we have any examples of a form < p.rthak followed by any form of
eva in the Canon or commentaries or even the older .tiikaas ?

Lance Cousins

>Re: 1-5-1
>
>OPS 38: "[This verse] states that 'in some cases the final a of
>putha gets the augment g before a vowel.' The vutti quotes the example
>puthag eva which is recorded neither in the canon nor in the
>A??hakaths. It is difficult to believe, however, that Kacc describes
>occurrences that are not instantiated."

#2204 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 5:35 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc. example, "parakkamo" 

The word is derived from Sanskrit paraa + krama which phonetically becomes
parakkama, kk entailing reduction of aa to a.
Ole Holten Pind

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 3. september 2007 08:43
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Kacc. example, "parakkamo"



Vidyabhusana explains _parakkamo_ as pa+a+kamo (with the "r" as a
euphonic insertion); the more obvious explanation would be para+kamo.
None of my dictionaries treat the word (perhaps because the prefix
"para" is self-evident) --is there a good reason for Vidyabhusana to
propose pa+a rather than para?

#2205 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 5:49 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

I mention this example in my forthcoming PTS edition of Kacc. I have not been
able to trace other examples.

Ole Holten Pind

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 3. september 2007 10:39
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation)



The example from Abhidh-s-mh.t is given in the PTS edition too (p.
190,5) and in the corresponding passage from the same author's
Abhidh-av-.t (e-text corr. to Be II 368). But of course these are
texts which may be influenced by the grammatical literature where
puthag eva seems to be a standard example.

Do we have any examples of a form < p.rthak followed by any form of
eva in the Canon or commentaries or even the older .tiikaas ?

Lance Cousins

#2206 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:08 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc. example, "parakkamo" 

Yes indeed, so why does Vidyabhusana say otherwise?

Oh well, maybe he was tired that day.  I will disregard his gloss of the matter.

E.M.

#2207 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:24 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

Dr. Pind,

   I was hoping that my edition would spare you the agony of some of
the comparative reading (viz., noting and correcting minor errors in
the text that are of no interest).

   I'm happy enough to continue with my own work, but what I had been
trying to avoid was duplication of labour.

   I had thought that you wanted to focus on historical questions of
the development of the text, etc., comparisons to other (Sk. &
Prakrit) grammars, etc., and thus did not want to spend a lot of time
doing what I am now engaged in, viz., noting very minor textual
variations, and correcting Vidyabhusana & Senart's earlier work.

   Are you planning to complete your edition within this year, or would
you like to take my finished text (viz., the Pali after I've corrected
it and noted all of the minutiae) and then work on that from there?

   This is good work for me (as a young & jejune scholar) --and, as I
have said many times, I have neither the ability nor the interest to
make comparative and historical judgements on the Sk. & Prakrit
grammars that run parallel to Kacc.

   I would also note that I currently quote you (and allude to your
opinions) fairly often in the first book (on Sandhi) as you commented
on so many oddities in the Sandhi-kappa in your prior article(s) --so,
again, I would be concerned to check with you that this is "okay" with
you and does not duplicate a separate work (that you now report as
"forthcoming").

   If you would like to use my (edited) Pali text in your edition,
i.e., start from it (with so many meaningless errors corrected, to
then deal with the meaningful problems in the text, add your own
corrections and changes as you see fit, etc.) I think this would be
entirely appropriate, i.e., as soon as my work is in print.

   At that time, I could sign a formal agreement with you allowing you
to use the (raw) Pali text I've produced as you see fit --but,
obviously, I would retain exclusive rights to the translation, notes,
etc. (none of which would really be interesting enough for you to
reproduce, I must assume).

   In any case, my contribution to the study of Kacc. concerns the
process as much as the product.

   I will produce one book --but, what is more important, I will
produce one scholar.

   I am learning a great deal, and developing the minute skills
("minute muscles") used in pulling together such an edition, and in
making such a translation.

"And a book is strung together,
  Like a beard of bread-crumbs."

E.M.

#2208 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:50 am 
Subject: Re: Milindapaha or Milindapahaa 

This is an interesting question which I suspect that a number of us
have wondered about.

Some comments:

1. We probably shouldn't assume that works necessarily have a single
title. Rather the case is like people who may be referred to in
various ways by different people in different contexts. Jim = Jimmie
= Jimbo = James = Anders = Mr. Anderson. None of these would
necessarily be 'correct' before the relatively recent introduction of
state registration and even since then it is different in different
countries or legal systems.

2. Sp IV 742 has: Me.n.dakamilindapahesu therassa sakapa.tibhaane
anaapatti, ya.m rao saaapanattha.m aaharitvaa vutta.m, tattha
aapatti. I think that the 19th century Paacityaadiyojanaa is right to
interpret this as equivalent to a dvandva i.e. "in the Me.n.dakapaha
and in the Milindapaha". I conclude from this that at the time of
writing of the Vinaya commentary these were two separate works.

3. If so, the explicit reference at Spk II 99 is presumably to the
Milindapaha as a separate work corresponding roughly to the Chinese
trsl and to Mil 2-89.

4. All other references in the commentaries of "Buddhaghosa" are
citing passages from separate works of what we may call the Milinda
literature. The last section of Mil (361-420) is known only to the
slightly later (?) Dh-a.

5. By the time of the subcommentaries attributed to Dhammapaala, etc.
these works have been collected into a single anthology, now known as
Milindapaha (masc. or nt). This included most known works of this
genre, but at least one such work was omitted, since Mil 419 states
that 42 Milinda questions are not included.

6. The passage at Mil 2 seems to suggest at least two phases of collection:
Ettha .thatvaa tesa.m pubbakamma.m kathetabba.m, kathentena ca
chaddhaa vibhajitvaa kathetabba.m, seyyathiida.m: Pubbayogo,
Milindapaha.m, Lakkha.napaha.m, Me.n.dakapaha.m, Anumaanapaha.m,
Opammakathaapahan ti.
Tattha Milindapaho: Lakkha.napaho, Vimaticchedanapaho ti duvidho;
Me.n.dakapaho pi: Mahaavaggo, Yogikathaapaho ti duvidho.

Here we seem to have attested both a masculine and a neuter. This
suggests to me that an original anthology supposedly in six parts has
been reorganized by a later redactor to include additional material
but retaining the idea of six parts. I find it difficult to believe
that the same person would have taken Milindapaha- as neuter and
then masculine in successive sentences.

7. There is no reason in principle why the original version of the
Me.n.dakapaha might not be as old as the original version of the
Milindapaha. This needs more detailed study of the contents than I
have so far seen.

Lance Cousins

>Western scholars usually spell the Pali title of this work as
>Milindapaha, however this seems incorrect. Like Theragth, the title
>probably needs to be plural because it means the "questions (/pah/) of
>Milinda" not "the question (/paha/) of Milinda." In the /Milindapah
>/Pali itself (p. 419) the work is called /Milindapah/:
>
>/Iti chasu kaesu bvsativaggapatimaitesu dvsahi-adhik dvesat
>imasmi potthake gat _milindapah samatt_, angat ca pana
>dvcattls honti, gat ca angat ca sabb samodhnetv cathi adhik
>tisatapah honti, s_abbva milindapah ti sakha gacchanti._ :/
>"Complete are the questions of Milinda (milindapah), handed down in
>six sections,  there are 304 questions, all these are reckoned as the
>questions of Milinda (milindapah). (Mil 419)
>
>However, the text (Be) concludes with "/Milindapaho ni.t.thito/," which
>is singular masculine. In this case one needs to take /paho/ as an
>action noun "inquiring, questioning"and the compound as an instrumental
>tappurisa: "The Questioning by Milinda" or "The Inquiry by Milinda" or
>the "The Interrogation by Milinda."
>
>What is the correct Pali title?
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>
>Kandy
>Sri Lanka

#2209 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 6:57 am 
Subject: Who is Alexander Wynn?

I read a reasonably good article by Wynn recently, and found this very
brief description of the man on-line:

"Alex Wynne has taught Pali for the undergraduate course in Sanskrit and Pali."

The article is here:

   _How old is the Suttapitaka?_
   The relative value of textual and epigraphical sources for the study
of early Indian Buddhism.
   By Alexander Wynne
   http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebsut056.htm

Jim, do you want to find an e-mail for him and invite him to join the
list?  If you write to his department at Oxford, they will forward the
message to him.

Sorry, but I can't undertake such a thing in my current circumstances
(soon "back to nowhere").

E.M.

#2210 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:27 am 
Subject: Re: Who is Alexander Wynn? 

Alex Wynne did a degree in Religious Studies in Bristol and then came
to Oxford where he obtained a D.Phil (effectively in Pali and
Buddhist studies). He held a Junior Fellowship here for several
years, but is, I believe, now in Bangkok at Mahidol. The case is
similar with Justin Meiland.

But I don't think either are especially interested in grammatical studies.

Lance Cousins

>I read a reasonably good article by Wynn recently, and found this very
>brief description of the man on-line:
>
>"Alex Wynne has taught Pali for the undergraduate course in Sanskrit
>and Pali."
>
>The article is here:
>
>   _How old is the Suttapitaka?_
>   The relative value of textual and epigraphical sources for the study
>of early Indian Buddhism.
>   By Alexander Wynne
>   http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/ebsut056.htm
>
>Jim, do you want to find an e-mail for him and invite him to join the
>list?  If you write to his department at Oxford, they will forward the
>message to him.
>
>Sorry, but I can't undertake such a thing in my current circumstances
>(soon "back to nowhere").

#2211 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 7:34 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

Ole,

I wasn't sure if you had the Abhidh-av-.t example or not.

But if it is correct (as seems on a quick look) that there are no
examples in extant Canon or Commentary of the occurrence of any Pali
form of p.rthak + eva, then puthag eva could actually be the regular
form for the ancient literature. It would just be that no example
happens to be in surviving texts. But perhaps this is what you
intended to imply.

Lance

>I mention this example in my forthcoming PTS edition of Kacc. I have
>not been able to trace other examples.
>
>Ole Holten Pind
>
>   _____
>
>Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P
>vegne af L.S. Cousins
>Sendt: 3. september 2007 10:39
>Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>Emne: Re: [palistudy] Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation)
>
>
>
>The example from Abhidh-s-mh.t is given in the PTS edition too (p.
>190,5) and in the corresponding passage from the same author's
>Abhidh-av-.t (e-text corr. to Be II 368). But of course these are
>texts which may be influenced by the grammatical literature where
>puthag eva seems to be a standard example.
>

#2212 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 8:31 am 
Subject: Re: Who is Alexander Wynn? 

Thanks very much Lance,

   I'm not so far away from Bangkok, so perhaps (perhaps) I'll cross
paths with him some day.

   I wonder if they're in contact with Filliozat, who is also a
permanent resident of "the doomed city".

   Perhaps these scholars at Mahidol will one day inhabit the
mysterious (and currently vacant) "International Tipitaka Research
Centre" in Payao.

   And, perhaps, after the oceans rise and submerge Bangkok, they will
develop a sudden interest in relocating to Laos (NB: there is no part
of urban Bangkok more than one metre above sea level --and it has a
daytime population of 10 million, many commuting in from the halo of
shanty towns surrounding the metropolis on a daily basis).

E.M.

#2213 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:24 am 
Subject: SV: SV: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

Lance,

I think you are right. When I wrote my survey 10 years ago I noticed the
following interesting passage in Sv 59,29 where Bhuddhaghosa explains the
derivation of puthujjana as "puthu ..... ariyehi janehi". The same etymology
is repeated by Moggalaana  III 69 as "ariyehi puthag evaaya.m jano", which
is the example we would like to find. The Kaccaayana rule belongs
undoubtedly in this context. I might be a Sanskritism introduced by the
grammarians.

Ole

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 3. september 2007 13:35
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: [palistudy] Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation)



Ole,

I wasn't sure if you had the Abhidh-av-.t example or not.

But if it is correct (as seems on a quick look) that there are no
examples in extant Canon or Commentary of the occurrence of any Pali
form of p.rthak + eva, then puthag eva could actually be the regular
form for the ancient literature. It would just be that no example
happens to be in surviving texts. But perhaps this is what you
intended to imply.

Lance

#2214 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 10:37 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

My edition was completed in 1997. The purpose was to present a text of
Kaccaayana without the many interpolations from various sources which
scribes have added to the text through the ages. I have traced the sources
of the interpolations where possible and given all necessary information
about them in the apparatus. The idea has been to produce a copy of Kacc as
close as possible to the text of Kacc-v which was commneted and quoted in
Mukhamattadiipanii and other later sources like Suttaniddesa.

Ole Pind

   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 3. september 2007 12:25
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation)

Dr. Pind,

I was hoping that my edition would spare you the agony of some of
the comparative reading (viz., noting and correcting minor errors in
the text that are of no interest).

#2215 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 3, 2007 11:29 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) 

> My edition was completed in 1997.

This is not a fact I had ever been apprised of --you have always
described it as "forthcoming".

I will, therefore, include your new edition in my comparative reading
if it appears in print prior to my own publication.

Incidentally, did the "500 year old" Kacc MS in Maha-Sarakham catch
your imagination?

Eventually, I will have to inspect it to test its claims to such
antiquity.  It is nice, at least, if such a culture exists where Kacc
is considered important enough to be the subject of such a hoax.

E.M.

#2216 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 9:57 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 1-4-12 (query, "agyaagaara?")

 Dear Eisel,

> Under the sub-rule to 1-4-12 (discussed by Dr. Pind in his article)
>
> I wonder at the example agyaagaara?.  Is the point here that agga + ya +
> agaara? = agyaagaara? (viz., agga + ya becomes agya rather than aggya)?
> Vidyabhusana's "scan" of this example doesn't make much sense to me.

There is no "agga" in "agyaagaara.m". The division (cheda) is: aggi +
aagaara.m according to Mmd. The /i/ of "aggi" was changed to a /y/ before a
vowel (Kc 21 iva.n.no ya.m navaa) and the first /g/ of /gg/ was dropped
according to the last part of Kc 41and Mmd (see also Sd 120 which quotes the
same example).

> I'm currently translating the sub-rule as follows (subject to change):
>
> We are to infer from [the verse's use of] "and" that [wherever] three
> [consonants are adjoined] in the middle [of a word or compound,] one
> of the identical pair [may be] elided, such as with: [forming a
> compound word from agga + ya + agaara? =] agyaagaara? [viz., eliding one
> g to avoid the triple compound ggy. Similarly, the sequence tty is
> avoided by dropping one t where vutti + assa = vutyassa, as in the
> phrase:] pa.tisantaaravutyassa.

"in the middle [of a word or compound,]" as a translation of "antare" misses
the point. It should be: [whichever are the identical forms] "within" [the
three consonants]. Other commentaries like Mmd state that there is elision
of the first of the identical forms or consonants.

> I would also note that the main rule is not (explicitly) restricted to
> identical pairs, but to any "adjoined consonants", which would seem to
> me to include, e.g., "ddh" and "kkh" (viz., not exclusively "dd",
> "kk", etc.) --although the later layers of the text do not flesh out
> this possibility left open by the rule.

The use of the term "saruupaa" (the identical forms) in the (sub-)rule
excludes pairs like "ddh" and "kkh". Sd 120 gives the example "titthyaa".

In this and some other messages you've been using a unicode encoding and the
special Pali letters do display correctly on my computer. However, this may
not necessarily be the case for everyone who reads these messages. There are
also serious problems when it comes to archiving the messages. I also notice
that the letters do not display correctly on the Yahoogroups website. I
think it would be best to avoid using unicode or other encodings in the
group messages and stick with the Velthuis scheme.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2217 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2007 11:51 pm 
Subject: Very brief note on Chiang Rai Universities 

Three years after first visiting the campus, I briefly toured Chiang
Rai's "Mae Fa Louang University", and also "CRU" --also called
Rajabhat University-- located 8 km down the same highway.

I have basically nothing to report, but this type of non-report puts
my more positive (and lengthy) descriptions of other institutions here
in context.

Mae Fa Louang has a cultural studies program that covers Burma, Laos,
Lanna, and the adjacent part of China.

I had learned about this three years ago, and so decided to investigate.

I spoke with a very nice fellow, who has just completed a years-long
study of chicken-slaughtering rituals in Akha villages.

Unfortunately, their cultural studies do not in any way include
manuscripts, nor epigraphy, nor Pali --neither of the two universities
here have activities in these fields.

As I say, there is thus nothing to report, except to put my other
"reports" into a kind of context, as, for every institution that has a
portion of its research dedicated to this area, there are dozens that
don't --and, often, the only way for me to discover which is the case
is to ride my bicycle up to the campus and ask.

E.M.

#2218 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2007 3:04 am 
Subject: Strange praise for Peter Skilling

The reputation of Dr. Skilling's research reaches far beyond Bangkok.

In the border town of Chiang Khong (on the Thai side of the Mekong,
opposite Laos) I received the following interesting observation from a
local restaurant owner, when I admitted that I study Pali.

I paraphrase:

"You know, at the University in Bangkok, people who want to study,
they go to study with a Canadian man.  This foreign teacher, he knows
more than all the Thai teachers, more than the Thai monks; everybody
knows it is true, and they want to study with him only.  It is the
shame of Thailand."

I was absolutely astounded that Dr. Skilling's reputation had reached
"laypeople" (in both the academic and religious sense) in Chiang
Khong, and it is rather strange praise to say "His scholarship is so
great, it is the shame of our nation" --but this almost precisely what
she had to say.

E.M.

#2219 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 7:51 am 
Subject: Abrupt Exile from Laos: Very Bad News Indeed 

It isn't every day that a Lao government official threatens to have me
killed, jailed or exiled.

The good news is, that it seems the third of these three will suffice
--at least for the time being.

The bad news is, that I dare not set foot inside the Lao P.D.R. again
--putting an abrupt end to my humanitarian work with the V.E.C.O.
"food security" program in Bokeo province.

I will have to formally request that an embassy representative
accompany me from the border/bridge, as it will be necessary for me to
briefly return to Vientiane (to collect the very little money I have
from the Lao banks), and then (thereafter) I shall never see the
country again.

I shall briefly describe the sequence of events that I learned of
today, entirely relying upon my employer's description of them (viz.,
Stuart Ling, director of V.E.C.O. in Laos) as I have no other source
of information.

This week, the local provincial government convened a series of
meetings, at the largest of which the entire Lao-government staff
co-operating with V.E.C.O. (the charity that had been employing me at
the time) were compelled to read out formal apologies to the Communist
Party for their failure to report me (or indeed even to reprimand me)
for my free thinking.

The offense was: I named a cat after my favourite Lao government
official (Bouasone).

No, that was not a typo: I named a cat.

In countries such as England and Canada, it is not (in fact) insulting
to name your cat (or any cat) after someone you like (or possibly even
admire).  My own boss named one of his dogs after his (deceased)
father (although I have now learned this is regarded as denigrating in
Laos) --and I can remember growing up around children who named all
manner of pets after political figures, royalty, etc., at their whim.
And, indeed, if one loves a pet, in Western cultures generally, it is
considered something of flattery to name a pet (like naming a child)
after such a public figure.

I must note in passing: Bouasone genuinely was my favourite in the
Politbureau.  I recall his taking a stand on forest preservation
contrary to the party line, back when I worked in the government's
"department of foreign language press" in Vientiane.  We always had
some good quotes from him.

And, of course, all of the government officials I was actually living
with (and working with) thought it was a perfectly charming idea: not
one of them said it was a bad idea to name the cats as such.

So far as I know, I have not, in fact, committed any crime or
wrongdoing (see Article 31 of the Lao constitution: my freedom of
speech is absolute, apparently) --but they, as government officials,
are subject to Party discipline above and beyond the mere letter of
the law.  And they should have indeed prevented me from this crime of
free thinking --which reflects, at most, an unawareness of a cultural
peculiarity on my part --but, perhaps, reveals the subversive
tendencies of all of the officials who surrounded me and participated
in this thought crime, for their own unfathomable reasons.

At the end of the decisive meeting, it was declared that I shall never
work in Bokeo province again --and, in fact, my employer was forbidden
from hiring a replacement for the same posting.

I saw a hint of the chill that their "investigation" had sent through
those who knew me when I tried to check into a familiar hotel (in Huay
Xay): "no, you can't stay here".  They were afraid.  Someone had
spoken to them about me.

That is as much of a hint as I need; however, human nature is more ugly still.

The root of the problem is one government official who took umbridge
when hearing of the cat's name.  She (namely, Dr. Kai Keo, currently
heading up a provincial anti-drug program, and involved with various
health ministries) is both married to a yet more powerful government
official and, reportedly, has a sister in parliament.

In case you think that Lao people (or Lao culture) is universal in its
attitude toward the naming of cats, let me assure you it is not: the
other officials, including the one fellow who sat laughing while she
launched into a tirade against me, did not at all find offense in the
matter, and, as soon as Kai Keo was offended, I explained and
reflected that in the English-language to give a name to a pet (or,
for that matter, to name a boat) was not seen as denigrating to the
person referred to.

My attempts at diplomacy with her over the ensuing hours evidently did
not yield any results.

She did not say directly "I will have you killed", but rather what she
said was that if she told her husband and other government connections
about this cat-name, they COULD have me killed, or COULD send me to
jail, or COULD have me thrown out of the country.

So far, only one of these three has transpired; but we'll see if they
manage the other two in the days and weeks ahead.

She insisted that this could be done to anybody in Laos, and that Lao
people "disappear" frequently for such minor offenses; it was hard to
say if she was boasting or lamenting the latter fact.

She insisted at length that just to name a cat after a government
official was indeed sufficient grounds to end up murdered or as a
political prisoner --and (perhpas more pathetically) she then argued
that this was true of all countries everywhere, and that I should
therefore know better as it was the same in Canada or in Europe.  I
won't bother to relate the course that the conversation took from
there, but a reasonably polite debate ensued, in which I did about 5%
of the talking, and she filled the other 95% with ranting.

The greatest injustice is this: there was no punishment for the cat!

The cat, at least was complicit in this affiar, and bears the same
name still.  Any reasonable person would require that the cat share my
exile; yet no arrangement has been made for the feline to either
apologise to the Communist Party, nor for it to share a slow boat to
Cambodia with me.

I intend to continue doing humanitarian work in Asia --but, evidently,
Laos is now off the map for me.  This is an unexpected, dramatic and
(frankly) hilarious ending to more than two years of work in the
People's Democratic Republic.

And, if these ironies were not enough, when my boss said in defense of
my character that I was a Pali scholar, he was told, "Then he should
understand the low status of animals".

Of course, in the Pali texts (as in ancient Indian religion generally)
the status of animals is exponentially higher than in the Lao
cosmologies of our fallen times.  Cows, elephants and monkeys have
retained a shed of the sacred in modern India; famously, there are a
few Hindu orders that still worship even the rat.

Alas, as I have now learned, all animals are regarded as vermin in modern Laos.

E.M.

#2220 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 8:10 am 
Subject: Bad news for me, but good news for Kaccayana

Obversely, I should note:

The good news is that I do not have to live in a malaria-ridden
village without electricity anymore, and can proceed to work directly
on Kaccayana.

Likely, I will now finish my translation and edition sooner than would
have been possible while doing such work in Bokeo.

So: good news for Kaccayana.

   "Another moon, but never a new moon comes,
    And a book is strung together, like a beard of bread-crumbs."

E.M.

#2221 
From: John Kelly <palistudent@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2007 10:31 pm 
Subject: Re: Bad news for me, but good news for Kaccayana 

Thank you for sharing your story, Eizel.  It was both funny and very sad!  I am
sorry mostly for the beneficiaries of the good work you were doing there.

May you (and your cat) be well!

With metta,
John
----- Original Message ----
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com; Mme Filliozat <KFilliozat@Yahoo.com>;
OleHoltenPind@mail.dk
Sent: Friday, 7 September, 2007 10:10:29 PM
Subject: [palistudy] Bad news for me, but good news for Kaccayana

[...]

#2222 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2007 1:08 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 1-4-12 (query, "agyaagaara?") 

Thanks for a thoughtful and thoroughly researched reply, Jim.

I think you can see that there is a kind of "unfinished process" in
this translation.  Although my first attempt "makes sense" and is
generally "correct", later, on re-reading, I have to reconsider
exactly this type of question --precisely because such a large
percentage of the text is "implied and inferred".

I think that 60% of my translation is in square bracket [because the
text really isn't there]!

>  "in the middle [of a word or compound,]" as a translation of "antare" misses
>  the point. It should be: [whichever are the identical forms] "within" [the
>  three consonants].

So you see what I mean.

>  In this and some other messages you've been using a unicode encoding and the
>  special Pali letters do display correctly on my computer. However, this may
>  not necessarily be the case for everyone who reads these messages.

I don't know if it's possible to switch to the competition, but while
Yahoo seems to have trouble with these letters, Google handles them
flawlessly.

I can read Unicode characters in many languages (at a public windows
terminal, no special software installed), receiving messages back from
Google's Gmail.  However, as you say, Yahoogroups itself cannot
display these letters properly.

Experts tell me that Apple's mail service is even better, and would
allow me to bore you all by displaying tables of Khom-script Pali
--but this is only for the rich.

E.M.

#2223 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:09 pm 
Subject: unicode in group messages 

Dear Eisel and others,

> I can read Unicode characters in many languages (at a public windows
> terminal, no special software installed), receiving messages back from
> Google's Gmail.  However, as you say, Yahoogroups itself cannot
> display these letters properly.

After some experimenting with the settings in my IE browser I was finally
able to get the unicode characters to display correctly in the group
messages archived on the Yahoogroups website. So the problem was not with
the website but with the browser settings.

What I did was to set the encoding in the view menu to unicode (UTF-8) and
in internet options in the tools menu, I needed to select a unicode font in
"Fonts" and to check a box in "Accessibility" to override all other
font-styles specified by webpages. The only problem remaining for me is that
I'm not able to input the special Pali characters directly into an email
from the keyboard in Windows ME but I can easily do so on my newer Windows
XP computer.

So it is possible to use unicode characters in our group messages but at the
risk of some of us not being able to read them. It doesn't seem right
though, at this stage of the game, that unicode should be permanently banned
from our group messages. I would suggest using them sparingly for a start to
allow for a gradual transition to its greater use in the future.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2224 
From: John Kelly <palistudent@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:59 am 
Subject: Fw: SuttaCentral announcement 

Dear friends,

Some of you may be interested in this announcement about the SuttaCentral
project.

Metta,
John

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Sujato Bhikkhu <sujato@...>

Sent: Wednesday, 19 September, 2007 9:09:17 AM
Subject: SuttaCentral announcement

Dear all,

This email is a publicity announcement for our website in development,
SuttaCentral.  (http://www.suttacentral.net/)

SuttaCentral aims at facilitating the study of Buddhist texts from comparative
and historical perspectives. It focuses on the texts that
  represent "Early Buddhism", texts preserved not only in the Pali Sutta and
Vinaya Piṭakas but also in Chinese and Tibetan translations and in fragmentary
remains in Sanskrit and other languages.


SuttaCentral offers a gateway to this material by enabling users to quickly
identify the Chinese, Tibetan, and/or Sanskrit parallels of any given Pali
discourse – or vice versa. Having found that information, one can then can
click on the relevant links and consult the actual texts, most of which are
accessible from other web-sites. Later we also hope to provide direct access to
available English translations.


The system focuses initially on providing the correspondence data from the
perspective of the Pali suttas; that is, given a particular Pali sutta, one can
find the parallels in other textual languages. Finding parallels in the reverse
direction will become possible in due course. In building SuttaCentral, we plan
to work through the nikāyas, one by one, in the traditional sequence. At
present the Dīgha and Majjhima Nikāyas are complete. Data on the remaining
nikāyas will become accessible as the relevant research and data-entry work
progresses.


The data supplied here offer substantial improvements and additions over the
pioneering work by Akanuma (Comparative Catalogue of Chinese Āgamas & Pāli
Nikāyas, 1929), until now the standard reference work in this area.
Nevertheless, there is still much room for improvement. We therefore invite
other scholars working on this same early Buddhist material to provide input to
SuttaCentral (see "Contacts"), so that the material displayed is continually
refined for greater accuracy and completeness.


We hope, by providing this service, to advance the study of Early Buddhism. We
also hope to promote recognition of the need for such study to take account not
only of the Pali texts but also of their counterparts in other languages.




yours,

Bhante Sujato

(on behalf of the SuttaCentral team; see
http://www.suttacentral.net/contacts.htm)


--
Santi Forest Monastery

Lot 6 Coalmines Road
(PO  Box 132)
Bundanoon
NSW 2578 Australia

t: +61 (0)2 4883 6331
f: +61 (0)2 8572 8286

http://santifm1.0.googlepages.com/

http://www.suttacentral.net/
http://asaweb1.googlepages.com/
http://sectsandsectarianism.googlepages.com/

http://beginnings.endings.googlepages.com/home
http://ekottara.googlepages.com/home









#2225 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:07 am 
Subject: (1) Siam Society, (2) S. Collins grammar 

Two subjects I should probably bite my tongue about, but I yet dare to
comment, briefly, and at my peril,

(1) I visited the library of the Siam Society while I was in Bangkok
last week, and made a very thorough survey of their collection --e.g.,
determing what was in the rare book room by going through the card
catalogue and checking everything marked "rare" (viz., because you are
not allowed to physically browse in that hallowed chamber).

   In the area of Pali and Buddhist studies, simply put, they have
nothing; I was very much surprised.  Not only is the collection less
interesting than, e.g., the University of Toronto's library, but, in
fact, it is less impressive than the Buddhist Institute of Phnom Penh,
Cambodia.  When I discussed the collection with the librarians, they
indicated that they had zero budget for acquisitions, but just
passively collected donations from their members.

   This strategy has not worked well in this instance.

   They are missing most of the major academic journals that pertain to
Buddhist studies as well; I checked for numerous journals that I have
not seen since I left the decadent west, and found none of them there.

(2) While at the Siam Society, I first laid eyes (and hands) upon the
new Pali grammar by S. Collins.  I have carefully considered if I
should say anything, or what to say in this place, but perhaps I
should say simply that the book offers so many excuses for its own
short-comings (at the top of the list of errata, in the preface, etc.)
that one hardly needs to offer any criticism.

Collins states that the book was intended as a reference grammar but
was hastily changed into an introductory textbook, etc., and its
faults are derived from this plan (or lack thereof).  Well, be that as
it may, the book is indeed derivative of other sources that remain
available and remain superior to Collins' redux --most certainly as a
reference grammar, and (more debatably, but, in my opinion definitely)
as a student's primer.

When faced with a table that defines the meaning of the Pali cases by
quoting the Oxford English Dictionary's definition of the English
("equivalent") terms... well, one can only say that this is a resource
of equal value to looking up "Nominative" (etc.) in the O.E.D.

The latter is, I might point out, an ENGLISH dictionary, not a Pali
one.  Wijesekera's _Syntax..._, already much praised on this list,
seems even more praise-worthy in comparison.

However, comparisons within the small field of Pali studies are moot:
we should be comparing our new textbooks and grammatica to the best
that the field offers in any language.  When we glance at the latest
textbooks for literary Chinese, ancient Greek, or even Gilgit,
Tokarian, etc., rather than merely comparing Pali textbooks to
Duroiselle's work of a hundred years ago (and in difficult
circumstances in Burma, etc.) --the goods on offer seem even less
inspiring.

There will be some who take offense at my venturing an opinion,
however, (1) I would encourage them to state their own views if they
are contrary (rather than fulminating in silence), and (2) I do think
that I am entitled to an opinion, even if it is merely as a student of
Pali that I venture them.

E.M.

#2226 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:17 am 
Subject: eva.m me suta.m 

Dear members,

The suttantas of the Tipi.taka are usually introduced by the sentence eva.m
me suta.m. It is usually translated "Thus I have heard," and this
translation is seemingly corroborated by Sanskrit sources which invaribly
substitute mayaa (instr.). for me. However, me is genitive, and the use of
the genitive of the agent constructed with a past participle is quite common
in Paali as it is in Vedic Sanskrit. The grammatical problem is the form
suta.m which is neuter. This indicates that suta.m is an action noun meaning
hearing, just as sutta.m means sleaping, and di.t.tha,m seeing and muta.m
thinking. There is a Paa.ninian suutra III 3:114 stating that past
participles in the neuter are used as action nouns. The time reference is
one of generalised present. Consequently we should translate suta.m as
hearing. The only grammatically acceptable translation of this introductory
sentence must therefore be: My hearing is as follows i.e. The following is
what I hear say. This is extremely important from the point of view of the
enunciation of any suttanta introduced by it because it makes any enunciator
present with the events of the narrative.

Ole Holten Pind

#2227 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:59 am 
Subject: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

A couple of questions and an observation.

(i)  Grammar books say that 'me' is an enclitic pronoun form ambiguously
instrumental, dative or genitive.  How do we know that 'me' in this context is genitive?

(ii)  Given that 'suta.m' is neuter, why is this a problem?  Given that it
refers to something heard, what other gender could it be?

(iii)  The suggested translations, viz.

           My hearing is as follows.
           The following is what I hear say.

are not idiomatic English, and it is not clear exactly how to interpret them. 
Other possibilities:

           The following is what I hear said.
           The following is what I hear people say.

Neither of these seems appropriate.  Closer may be:

           The following is what I hear.

But I wonder whether a past participle can have this interpretation.

George Bedell

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@...> wrote:
>
> Dear members,
>
> The suttantas of the Tipi.taka are usually introduced by the sentence eva.m
> me suta.m. It is usually translated "Thus I have heard," and this
> translation is seemingly corroborated by Sanskrit sources which invaribly
> substitute mayaa (instr.). for me. However, me is genitive, and the use of
> the genitive of the agent constructed with a past participle is quite common
> in Paali as it is in Vedic Sanskrit. The grammatical problem is the form
> suta.m which is neuter. This indicates that suta.m is an action noun meaning
> hearing, just as sutta.m means sleaping, and di.t.tha,m seeing and muta.m
> thinking. There is a Paa.ninian suutra III 3:114 stating that past
> participles in the neuter are used as action nouns. The time reference is
> one of generalised present. Consequently we should translate suta.m as
> hearing. The only grammatically acceptable translation of this introductory
> sentence must therefore be: My hearing is as follows i.e. The following is
> what I hear say. This is extremely important from the point of view of the
> enunciation of any suttanta introduced by it because it makes any enunciator
> present with the events of the narrative.
>
> Ole Holten Pind

#2228 
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:59 am 
Subject: Dhammananda Kosambi 

Dear Pali Study Group,

Could anyone let me know where I can find biographical information on
Dhammananda Kosambi? All I know about him was that he was an Indian monk,
the author of a Pali .tiikaa to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, and the editor of
the 1950 Harvard edition of the Visuddhimagga. In 1904 he and Nyanatiloka
meditated with a famous meditation monk in Sagaing, Northern Burma.

There is something about him on the following Thai page but I can't read it:
http://ecurriculum.mv.ac.th/ebhuddismmusiem/religion/dhammathai/chapter11_1.php.\
htm


Regards,
               Bh. Nyanatusita
--
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Forest Hermitage
Udawattakele
PO Box 61
Kandy
Sri Lanka

#2229 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:07 am 
Subject: SV: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

Thanks for correcting my English. "The following is what I hear (people
say)" is what I meant to say. Indeed, ta-participles have this
interpretation in many instances like muta.m(n)thought, thinking or the
like. This interpretation is corroborated by contemporary Sanskrit usage and
statements by Paa.nini. If interpreted as a regular ta-participle we
confront the syntactical problem of agreement between an adjective suta.m
qualifying a nonexistent term in the neuter.
Like in sanskrit me is only genitive and perhaps in a few cases dative.
Instrumental is not possible unless we assume that Pali unlike Sanskrit
innovates on this point. I do not se any reason for assuming that. The
grammar books are in my opinion mistaken on this issue. In addition,
ta-participles with genitive agents often have to be translated as present
forms like ra.n.na.m (gen. pl.)puujito is honoured by kings. There are quite
a few examples in the canon.

Ole Holten Pind


-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af gdbedell
Sendt: 20. september 2007 10:00
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Re: eva.m me suta.m

A couple of questions and an observation.

[...]

#2230 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:50 am 
Subject: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

The following commentary at Sv I 28 allows for two interpretations of 'me'
and 'suta.m':

'me' saddassa hi 'mayaa'ti atthe sati 'eva.m mayaa suta.m'
sotadvaaraanusaarena upadhaaritanti yujjati.  'mamaa'ti atthe sati eva.m
mama suta.m sotadvaaraausaarena upadhaara.nanti yujjati.

So, if you take 'me' as an instrumental agent, 'suta.m' is taken as a
regular passive participle in the past tense 'heard' but if you take 'me' as
a genitive, 'suta.m' is then taken as an action noun 'hearing". The
difference is between 'upadhaarita.m' and 'upadhaara.na.m'. Cone gives the
following meanings for the latter as "the act of considering, reflecting on,
comprehending; consideration, keeping in mind".

Best wishes,
Jim

#2231 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:29 pm 
Subject: Re: Dhammananda Kosambi

Bhante,

On 20 Sep 2007, at 18:59, nyanatusita bhikkhu wrote:

>  There is something about him on the following Thai page but I can't
> read it:


This is a quick translation. Please excuse the inelegance of the
English:

Ven.Dhammaananda Kosambi

Ven.Dhammaananda Kosambi was an important Pali scholar during the
period of revival of Buddhism. He was born in Goa, Maharashtra, on 6th
October 1876, the youngest in a family of five children. As a child he
was impressed with the stories of the Buddha in a children's book and
so when he grew up he went to study Sanskrit and Buddhism at Poona and
Varanasi. Later he travelled to Nepal to study Buddhism but he felt
disappointed due to Nepal not being a Buddhist land, and so returned to
Bodh Gaya. Several monks advised him to go to study in Sri Lanka, a
land where Buddhism still flourished, and so in 1906 he travelled to
Sri Lanka to study Buddhism and there he received upasampadaa with Ven.
Sumangala Mahaathera as preceptor. Later he returned to India, got
bored, and gave up the bhikkhu training.

Later still, he got married in his home village and had a son named
D.D. Kosambi. After that he received upasampadaa again in 1910. He
travelled about, furthering his studies, until completing his doctorate
at Harvard University in America. Upon returning from America to India
he founded a Buddhist vihaara in Bombay in 1937. The vihaara was called
Bahujana Buddhavihaara. He then went on to write many books, including
_Bhagvaan Buddhaa_, the book responsible for arousing Dr. Ambedkar's
interest in Buddhism and his eventual conversion. At the end of his
life he entrusted Bahujana Buddhavihaara to the Mahaa Bodhi Society of
India and went to stay at Sarnath, where he passed away on 14th June
1947.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

#2232 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:17 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Dhammananda Kosambi 

The history of the vihara may be more interesting still:

> Upon returning from America to India
> he founded a Buddhist vihaara in Bombay in 1937. The vihaara was called
> Bahujana Buddhavihaara.

"Bahujan" is laden with caste implications; I rather wonder if this
reflected a kind of anti-caste system activism (in the 1930s) that
would make an interesting comparative study for those involved with
the Dalit and New-Buddhists movements of the present day.

> At the end of his
> life he entrusted Bahujana Buddhavihaara to the Mahaa Bodhi Society of
> India ...

That, no doubt would mark a decisive change in the social/political
significance of the place.  They would have done much to separate
themselves from the Ambedkarites, if there had been an association
before.

Good luck in researching this scholar, Bhadanta,

It may be that the easiest way to find out more would be to go to
India and ask around directly.  I won't stay in China forever, you
know, so I may soon be able to assist your research in Sri Lanka or
elsewhere

It depends on whether I finish Kaccayana, or if Kaccayana finishes me.

E.M.

#2233 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:24 am 
Subject: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

Hi Ole,

On 20 Sep 2007, at 21:07, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

>  Instrumental is not possible unless we assume that Pali unlike
> Sanskrit
>  innovates on this point.

Here are three examples where the commentators glossed me as mayaa:

aya.m kho me, braahma.na, rattiyaa pa.thame yaame pa.thamaa vijjaa
adhigataa (Vin. iii. 4)

Do you really think "me ... vijjaa adhigataa" means "my attained
knowledge" and not "knowledge attained by me" ? If so, don't you think
it strange that me is written so far apart from the thing owned ?


nibbinnaa me kaamaa (Thig. 480)

If this were genitive then it would be not the bhikkhunii but the
sensual desires that are disgusted.


gaathaabhigiita.m me abhojaneyya.m (Sn. 81)
"What has been sung over in verses should not be eaten by me."

Though I suppose one might read this as "... not mine to eat."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

#2234 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:07 am 
Subject: Pali studies in Kunming, China 

I note that the Chinese government is opening a Pali and
classical-Tibetan studies centre in Kunming (with Chinese as the
language of instruction for the other two languages).  Any
"intelligence" on this new institution would be welcome.

The official press is here:
english.peopledaily.com.cn/english/200102/23/eng20010223_63205.html

#2235 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:31 am 
Subject: SV: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

>  Instrumental is not possible unless we assume that Pali unlike
> Sanskrit  innovates on this point.

Here are three examples where the commentators glossed me as mayaa:

aya.m kho me, braahma.na, rattiyaa pa.thame yaame pa.thamaa vijjaa adhigataa
(Vin. iii. 4)

Do you really think "me ... vijjaa adhigataa" means "my attained knowledge"
and not "knowledge attained by me" ? If so, don't you think it strange that
me is written so far apart from the thing owned ?

No I don?t. me as genitive agent has to be constructed with the
ta-participle. The knowledge I come into possession of .....

The commentators often gloss me by mayaa, which is understandable.


nibbinnaa me kaamaa (Thig. 480)

If this were genitive then it would be not the bhikkhunii but the sensual
desires that are disgusted. On the genitive agent interpretation this would
mean "I am disgusted with sensual desires" or rather "disgusted with the
ojects of sensual desire"

gaathaabhigiita.m me abhojaneyya.m (Sn. 81)
"What has been sung over in verses should not be eaten by me."

This is one of the many examples of a genitive agent constructed with a
so-called gerundive. There are many of them in the canon. Interestingly this
construction is also mentioned by the Sanskrit grammarian Paa.nini.

Best wishes,
Ole Holten Pind

#2236 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:07 am 
Subject: SV: eva.m me suta.m 

Dear Jim,

Sv is interesting because the explanation takes me in the sense of mayaa
i.e. not as an instrumental form, but with a similar function. The
commentators were, I believe, well aware of the corresponding Sanskrit
formulation of Buddhist Sanskrit lit. Interestingly, the exegesis suggests
that suta.m presupposes an underlying dvaara. (n.), which supposedly would
explain suta.m (n.). On the other hand, it also suggests the action noun
interpretation. This would indicate that the commentators were puzzled by
the syntax of the phrase.

Best wishes,
Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 20. september 2007 16:50
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] eva.m me suta.m

Dear Ole,

The following commentary at Sv I 28 allows for two interpretations of 'me'
and 'suta.m':

[...]

#2237 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:56 am 
Subject: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

I think the interpretation of "me suta.m" that you sugggest (genitive agent
+ action noun) agrees with the second of the two put forth in Sv. "Suta.m"
as an action noun and the genitive form of "me" is corroborated by
Dhammapaala in Sv-p.t. In addition, the two vaartikas for Paa.n II 3:67
specifically addresses constructions with the genitive + action nouns in the
neuter with the -ta suffix. "bhagavato bhaasita.m" is another good example
of this type of construction, I think. Interestingly, the second vaartika
seems to allow for a construction with the instrumental as well, e.g. ahinaa
s.rptam (the gliding by a snake). I can appreciate the present time aspect
of "suta.m" (hearing) as it suggests Ananda is about to recount the
discourse directly from his aural memory.

The first interpretation in Sv, which you seem to reject, is to take "me" as
an insturmental agent and "suta.m" as an object (kamma) "what was heard by
me".  This would put the emphasis on Ananda having heard the discourse
some time ago..

Best wishes,
Jim

<< Sv is interesting because the explanation takes me in the sense of mayaa
i.e. not as an instrumental form, but with a similar function. The
commentators were, I believe, well aware of the corresponding Sanskrit
formulation of Buddhist Sanskrit lit. Interestingly, the exegesis suggests
that suta.m presupposes an underlying dvaara. (n.), which supposedly would
explain suta.m (n.). On the other hand, it also suggests the action noun
interpretation. This would indicate that the commentators were puzzled by
the syntax of the phrase. >>

#2238 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:05 pm 
Subject: SV: eva.m me suta.m 

Dear Jim,

Yes, you are right. What I find particularly interesting is that the
canonical language in so many ways contain instances of usage and
constructions that Paa.nini and the Sanskrit grammarians address. Take, for
instance, the use of ruupa as suffix e.g. taramaanaruupa "in great haste."
It has the same function after ta-participles e.g. kata-ruupa "well done" or
the like. The usage is already addressed by Paa.ni, although only after
noound e.g. goruupa "excellent cow."

Best wishes,
Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 22. september 2007 17:57
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] eva.m me suta.m

Dear Ole,

I think the interpretation of "me suta.m" that you sugggest (genitive agent
+ action noun) agrees with the second of the two put forth in Sv. "Suta.m"
as an action noun and the genitive form of "me" is corroborated by
Dhammapaala in Sv-p.t. In addition, the two vaartikas for Paa.n II 3:67
specifically addresses constructions with the genitive + action nouns in the
neuter with the -ta suffix. "bhagavato bhaasita.m" is another good example
of this type of construction, I think. Interestingly, the second vaartika
seems to allow for a construction with the instrumental as well, e.g. ahinaa
s.rptam (the gliding by a snake). I can appreciate the present time aspect
of "suta.m" (hearing) as it suggests Ananda is about to recount the
discourse directly from his aural memory.

[...]

#2239 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:32 pm 
Subject: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

Below is a list of all occurences of ''eva.m me'' besides the occurence
in ''eva.m me suta.m''.

Bh. Nyanatusita

Api ca me, bho, eva.m hoti? sama.no gotamo na evamaaha? ?eva.m me
sutan?ti vaa ?eva.m arahati bhavitun?ti vaa; api ca sama.no gotamo?
?eva.m tadaa aasi, ittha.m tadaa aasi? tveva bhaasati. Tassa mayha.m bho
eva.m hoti? ?addhaa sama.no gotamo? ~Siilakkhandhavaggapaa.li:dii. ni.-1
~Ro.:1.143

kassapo evamaaha atha kho eva.m me ettha hoti itipi ~Mahaavaggapaa.li
(dii. ni.):dii. ni.-2 ~Ro.:2.319

te tasmi.m ruupe vaso eva.m me ruupa.m hotu eva.m
~Muulapa.n.naasapaa.li:ma. ni.-1 ~Ro.:1.231

duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjeyya eva.m me ettha hoti eva~nca
~Majjhimapa.n.naasapaa.li:ma. ni.-2 ~Ro.:2.86

ambho sama.na natthi dhammiko paribbajo? eva.m me ettha hoti. Ta~nca
~Majjhimapa.n.naasapaa.li:ma. ni.-2 ~Ro.:2.158

Na, bhante, aayasmaa anuruddho evamaaha? ?eva.m me sutan?ti vaa ?eva.m
arahati bhavitun?ti vaa; atha ca pana, bhante, aayasmaa anuruddho
?evampi taa devataa, itipi taa devataa?tveva bhaasati. Tassa mayha.m,
bhante, eva.m hoti? ?addhaa aayasmataa anuruddhena
~Uparipa.n.naasapaa.li:ma. ni.-3 ~Ro.:3.152

upasa.mhareyya.m tadanudhamma~nca citta.m bhaaveyya.m eva.m me aya.m
upekkhaa ta.mnissitaa ~Uparipa.n.naasapaa.li:ma. ni.-3 ~Ro.:3.243

sa.mvatteyya labbhetha ca ruupe eva.m me ruupa.m hotu eva.m
~Khandhavaggapaa.li:sa.m. ni.-3 ~Ro.:3.66

desenti tesa.m dhammo svaakkhaato eva.m me ettha hotii?ti. Ta.m
~Tikanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-3 ~Ro.:1.218

?Aha~nhi, bho gotama, eva.mvaadii eva.mdi.t.thi ?? ?yo koci di.t.tha.m
bhaasati? eva.m me di.t.thanti, natthi tato doso; yo koci suta.m
bhaasati? eva.m me sutanti, natthi tato doso; yo koci muta.m bhaasati?
eva.m me mutanti, natthi tato doso; yo koci vi~n~naata.m bhaasati?eva.m
me vi~n~naatanti, natthi tato doso??ti. ~Catukkanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-4
~Ro.:2.172

bhaaradvaajassa vaase.t.thassa kassapassa bhaguno eva.m me aya.m
daanasa.mvibhaago bhavissatii?ti ~Sattakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-7 ~Ro.:4.61

dhamme gantvaa bhagavato aaroceyya.m eva.m me ime dhammaa parisuddhaa
~Sattakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-7 ~Ro.:4.120

suva.n.nanikkha.m gantvaa kammaaraana.m dasseyya.m eva.m me aya.m
suva.n.nanikkho sakammaaragato ~Sattakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-7 ~Ro.:4.120

samannaaharitvaa nando anudisa.m anuviloketi eva.m me anudisa.m
anuvilokayato naabhijjhaadomanassaa ~A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-8
~Ro.:4.167

jiivika.m kappeti naaccogaa.lha.m naatihiina.m eva.m me aayo vaya.m
pariyaadaaya ~A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-8 ~Ro.:4.282

sa~njaaneyya.m ruupaani ca passeyya.m; eva.m me ida.m ~naa.nadassana.m
parisuddhatara.m ~A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-8 ~Ro.:4.302

jiivika.m kappeti naaccogaa.lha.m naatihiina.m eva.m me aayo vaya.m
pariyaadaaya ~A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li:a. ni.-8 ~Ro.:4.323

kadaaha.m viharissaami katakicco anaasavo eva.m me kattukaamassa
adhippaayo samijjhatu. ~Theragaathaapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Ro.:0.57

Soto rukkha.mva sahasaa luve eva.m me bhayajaatassa apaaraa paaramesato.
~Theragaathaapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Ro.:0.75

katvaa paapaa citta.m nivaarayi.m? eva.m me viharantassa
appamaadavihaarino. Ti.msavassasahassaani ~Apadaanapaa.li-1:Khu. ni.
~Ro.:1.68

nisajja.t.thaanaca"nkame. Abbhantaramhi sattaahe
abhi~n~naabalapaapu.ni.m eva.m me siddhippattassa vasiibhuutassa
saasane. ~Buddhava.msapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Ro.:0.8

Me bhavissati?. Pathaviya.m nipannassa eva.m me aasi cetaso. Icchamaano
~Buddhava.msapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Ro.:0.9

catuuhi sa"ngahavatthuuhi sa"nga.nhaami mahaajana.m eva.m me
appamattassa idha loke ~Cariyaapi.takapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Ro.:0.101

yathaa pitaa ca maataa ca eva.m me so bhavissati. Ya.m
~Jaatakapaa.li-1:khu. ni. ~Mya.:1.132

tuyha.m nihiiyati ji.n.nataraasi ajja eva.m me pekkhamaanassa raajaputti
yasassini. ~Jaatakapaa.li-1:khu. ni. ~Mya.:1.232

Majjhe ca pacchaa muulamhi chindatha eva.m me chijjamaanassa na dukkha.m
~Jaatakapaa.li-1:khu. ni. ~Mya.:1.243

hi.mseyyu.m te tva.m disvaa nivaaraya eva.m me parittaatuuna passupi so
~Jaatakapaa.li-1:khu. ni. ~Mya.:1.382

bhava.m dhamma.m kosiyo pavida.msayi? eva.m me yaacamaanassa a~njali.m
naavabujjhatha. ~Jaatakapaa.li-2:khu. ni. ~Mya.:2.79

Padhaavissa.m piye putte apassatii eva.m me vilapantiyaa raajaa putta.m
~Jaatakapaa.li-2:khu. ni. ~Mya.:2.322

[iccaayasmaa ajito] naamaruupa~nca maarisa eva.m me pu.t.tho pabruuhi
kattheta.m ~Cuu.laniddesapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Mya.:0.33

sa.mvatteyya; labbhetha ca ruupe eva.m me ruupa.m hotu eva.m
~Cuu.laniddesapaa.li:khu. ni. ~Mya.:0.181

pana samayena a~n~nataro bhikkhu eva.m me anaapatti bhavissatii?ti
gihili"ngena ~Paaraajikaka.n.dapaa.li:vinayapi.taka-1 ~Ro.:3.34

sa.mvatteyya labbhetha ca ruupe eva.m me ruupa.m hotu eva.m
~Mahaavaggapaa.li (vinayapi.taka):vinayapi.taka-3 ~Ro.:1.13

Dviisu aavaasesu vassa.m vaseyya.m eva.m me bahu.m ciivara.m
uppajjissatii?ti. ~Mahaavaggapaa.li (vinayapi.taka):vinayapi.taka-3
~Ro.:1.153

#2240 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:03 pm 
Subject: SV: Re: eva.m me suta.m 

Dear Bhante,

Many thanks for this interesting list of references. I think that the first
example is really wonderful. Gotama is portrayed as one who neither says "I
hear (people) say the following" nor does he say "this is how it should be",
but rather, he says "at that time it was like this, at that time it was in
this way." The difference lies in the time reference. The first way of
expressing oneself is rejected because of its generalized present tense
without specific time reference. The following presents Gotama as one whose
speech refers to the event in the past that corroborates his statement.

Ole Holten Pind

#2241 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:55 am 
Subject: te suta.m/me suta.m 

The following  interesting passage is found in D III 54: kin ti te suta.m
paribbaajakaana.m vu.d.dhaana.m mahalla-
kaana.m  ...  bhaasamaanaana.m - (here follows the content of what the
wanderers say). Then follows the answer: suta.m  me ta.m,  bhante,
paribaajaaana.m etc. as above.
suta.m is evidently a noun constructed with the pronoun te "your hearing"
the other genitives are constructed with suta.m as the object of suta.m
(well-known from both Pali and Sanskrit), "Perhaps you hear the wanderers
..... saying ..... yes, I hear them saying ....

It would be entirely impossible to construe suta.m of this passage as
anything but a noun, which corroborates the interpretation of me suta.m I
have presented in an earlier post.

Regards,
Ole Holten Pind

#2242 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:06 pm 
Subject: SV: Re: Dhammananda Kosambi 

Dear Dhammanando bhikkhu,

Thank you very much for this interesting information. Kosambi?s edition of
the Visuddhimagga was published in Harvard Oriental Series Volume 41 in
1950, a few years before he died. His own preface to the edition is dated
1927 and the title page claims that it is a revision of Warrens critical
edition. My question is, have you got any information about Kosambi?s work
on the revision, and why it was published as late as 1950, many years after
it apparently was completed?

With kind regards,
Ole Holten Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Sendt: 20. september 2007 21:30
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Re: Dhammananda Kosambi

Bhante,

On 20 Sep 2007, at 18:59, nyanatusita bhikkhu wrote:

>  There is something about him on the following Thai page but I can't
> read it:


This is a quick translation. Please excuse the inelegance of the
English:

Ven.Dhammaananda Kosambi

[...]

#2243 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:01 pm 
Subject: Re: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

A few comments and questions:

> suta.m is evidently a noun constructed with the pronoun te "your hearing"

I think the following passage at M I 238,12 has some similarity to your
passage: "kinti pana te aggivessana kaayabhaavanaa sutaati." -- But,
Aggivessana, has the development of the body been heard by you? It is clear
from the fem. sing. inflection of "sutaa" that this cannot be an action noun
and I would suggest the same holds for the 'suta.m" in the D III passage
even though it's in the neuter. I think the reason for the neuter in the
first interpretation of eva.m me suta.m discussed earlier is that the entire
discourse following the "suta.m" and ending in "ti" is taken as a neuter (x
(neuter) was heard (neuter) by me).

> the other genitives are constructed with suta.m as the object of suta.m
> (well-known from both Pali and Sanskrit), "Perhaps you hear the wanderers
> ..... saying ..... yes, I hear them saying ....

Isn't it possible that the genitive phrase following "suta.m" is directly
connected to the quotes that follow in a possesive relation (the quotes of
the wanderers) rather than as the object of "suta.m"? Couldn't it be that
the quotes themselves are the objects of "sut.am"? Another point I should
make is that if you take the genitive phrase as the object of "suta.m", the
agent "te" cannot be in the genitive case as well and would have to be taken
in the instrumental. This is according to Paa.n II 3:66 which states that
the agent and the object cannot both be in the genitive case in the same
sentence with a k.rt word serving as the verb.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2244 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:19 am 
Subject: Re: Dhammananda Kosambi 

Dear Ole,


On 24 Sep 2007, at 03:06, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

> My question is, have you got any information about Kosambi?s work
> on the revision, and why it was published as late as 1950, many years
> after
> it apparently was completed?

Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't know anything at all about the man or his
work, other than what I've read in Bhikkhu Bodhi's
Abhidhammatthasangaha translation and this Thai article.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

#2245 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:47 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Dhammananda Kosambi 

Dear bhikkhu Dhammanando,

Perhaps you would do me the favor of passing on my question to someone, who
might have the requested information.
With many thanks and best wishes,

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Sendt: 24. september 2007 12:19
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Re: Dhammananda Kosambi

Dear Ole,


On 24 Sep 2007, at 03:06, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

> My question is, have you got any information about Kosambi?s work on
> the revision, and why it was published as late as 1950, many years
> after it apparently was completed?

Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't know anything at all about the man or his
work, other than what I've read in Bhikkhu Bodhi's Abhidhammatthasangaha
translation and this Thai article.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

#2246 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:15 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Dhammananda Kosambi 

Dear Ole,

I was told something about this around 40 or so years ago by several
people, but my memory fails me as to the details. I do recall that it
was controversial especially in relation to the Naagarii edition in
1940. There may have been some difference of views as to under whose
name it should be published. But any information I have is simply
what I was told and may have been no more than academic gossip.

Lance Cousins

>Dear Dhammanando bhikkhu,
>
>Thank you very much for this interesting information. Kosambi?s edition of
>the Visuddhimagga was published in Harvard Oriental Series Volume 41 in
>1950, a few years before he died. His own preface to the edition is dated
>1927 and the title page claims that it is a revision of Warrens critical
>edition. My question is, have you got any information about Kosambi?s work
>on the revision, and why it was published as late as 1950, many years after
>it apparently was completed?
>
>With kind regards,
>Ole Holten Pind

#2247 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:25 am 
Subject: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Jim,

One the one hand, there are many examples like the one you quote, where
there is agreement between a ta-participle and the noun it qualifies, the
agent of the ta-participle being in the genitive. However, there are things
about the te suta.m/me suta.m constructions that puzzle me. See, for
instance, the following example from S III 134: sammukhaa me ta.m aavuso ...
Bhagavato suta.m sammukhaa ca pa.tiggahita.m Kaccaanagotta.m bhikkhum
ovadantassa: dvayanissito, and so on. ovadantassa evidently qualifies
Bhagavato (gen.), so we confront an example similar to the one I mentioned
earlier: Two genitives are apparently constructed with suta.m.

Best wishes,
Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 23. september 2007 23:01
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] te suta.m/me suta.m

Dear Ole,

A few comments and questions:

> suta.m is evidently a noun constructed with the pronoun te "your hearing"


#2248 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:46 am 
Subject: Request for Jayamangala e-text 

Currently, I only have a Thai e-text of the Jayamangala sutta (a.k.a.
the Buddha-Jayamangala Gatha / Paritta / Pirit).

This Thai version is either a bit flawed, or simply differs from the
Sinhalese audio recording I have (e.g., "me" vs. "te" errors).

Does anyone have another e-text of this late paracanonical work?
Preferably one from a Sinhalese source?

It's only eight verses long, so I assume it has been digitized
somewhere, given its fame.

E.M.

#2249 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:56 am 
Subject: Re: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

I am not sure on the general issue, but in this case I don't
understand why you see a problem.

>See, for
>instance, the following example from S III 134: sammukhaa me ta.m aavuso ...
>Bhagavato suta.m sammukhaa ca pa.tiggahita.m Kaccaanagotta.m bhikkhum
>ovadantassa: dvayanissito, and so on. ovadantassa evidently qualifies
>Bhagavato (gen.), so we confront an example similar to the one I mentioned
>earlier: Two genitives are apparently constructed with suta.m.

Why would there be problem in rendering:

"This, friend Channa, has been heard and apprehended  by me
face-to-face with the Lord as he was instructing the monk
Kaccaanagotta:  ... " ?

Lance

#2250 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:53 pm 
Subject: Re: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

sammukhaa me ta.m aavuso Channa Bhagavato suta.m sammukhaa ca
pa.tiggahita.m Kaccaanagotta.m bhikkhum ovadantassa:

I would translate the above as:
"This, friend Channa, was heard by me in the presence of the Blessed One,
and accepted <by me> in the presence of <him> instructing Kaccaanagotta,
the bhikkhu: ..."

I'm not sure if it's correct that "sammukhaa" should take a genitive and I'm
puzzled as to why "sammukhaa" is repeated twice. Perhaps Ananda heard
it on one occasion but it wasn't until later that he accepted it. Now, I
would normally have taken "me" as an instrumental enclitic form of the
stem "amha" in accordance with Aggava.msa. I don't yet know what
Kaccaayana has to say about this in the Naamakappa but from reading
Kacc-v 308 (cha.t.thii ca) "kato me kalyaa.no" is given as an example of
the use of the sixth (genitive) case in the sense of the third which would
include the instrumental agent. So one could take the "me" in the Channa
quote as a genitive form. Kacc 308 & 309 together gives the genitive a
very wide scope as it can take the place of 4 different cases in many
instances and to add to the confusion there is the similarity of the forms
of the dative or 4th case.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< One the one hand, there are many examples like the one you quote, where
there is agreement between a ta-participle and the noun it qualifies, the
agent of the ta-participle being in the genitive. However, there are things
about the te suta.m/me suta.m constructions that puzzle me. See, for
instance, the following example from S III 134: sammukhaa me ta.m aavuso ...
Bhagavato suta.m sammukhaa ca pa.tiggahita.m Kaccaanagotta.m bhikkhum
ovadantassa: dvayanissito, and so on. ovadantassa evidently qualifies
Bhagavato (gen.), so we confront an example similar to the one I mentioned
earlier: Two genitives are apparently constructed with suta.m. >>

#2251 
From: John Kelly <palistudent@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:57 am 
Subject: Re: Request for Jayamangala e-text 

Eisel,

There is a version of this sutta in both Pali and English in the Bhavana Vandana
chanting book prepared by Bhante Gunaratana (a renowned Sri Lankan monk, living
in th USA).  An e-copy of this excellent book is available for free download
from http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm (when you get to this page just
search for Bhavana and you'll find it easily).

Metta,
John

----- Original Message ----
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 26 September, 2007 1:46:09 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Request for Jayamangala e-text

Currently, I only have a Thai e-text of the Jayamangala sutta
(a.k.a.

[...]

#2252 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:51 am 
Subject: Re: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Jim,

>sammukhaa me ta.m aavuso Channa Bhagavato suta.m sammukhaa ca
>pa.tiggahita.m Kaccaanagotta.m bhikkhum ovadantassa:
>
>I would translate the above as:
>"This, friend Channa, was heard by me in the presence of the Blessed One,
>and accepted <by me> in the presence of <him> instructing Kaccaanagotta,
>the bhikkhu: ..."

Well, Jim, I was translating into English :-) But of course this is
more literal.

>I'm not sure if it's correct that "sammukhaa" should take a genitive and I'm
>puzzled as to why "sammukhaa" is repeated twice. Perhaps Ananda heard
>it on one occasion but it wasn't until later that he accepted it.

No, the sequence is very common in the form:
sammukhaa suta.m sammukhaa ca pa.tiggahita.m

If the two phrases are different, the second case should imply
'learning' in some form. Obviously, it is one thing to have heard
something and another to have taken it in so as to remember it.

Here's an example from D  II 124:
   tassa me sa'nghassa sammukhaa suta.m sammukhaa pa.tiggahita.m

What is different in the example addressing Channa is the order and
neither of our renderings attempted to address this. In fact this is
something that modern Thai Pali scholars have addressed to some
degree. It is taken up in the Oxford D.Phil thesis of Pathompong
Bodhiprasiddhi. So it is a clear that the position of samukhaa and me
is for the sake of emphasis.

I am not sure how to render that in English. Perhaps something like:
"This, friend Channa, I myself have heard in the actual presence of
the Lord and apprehended <it > in his presence ... " ?

Lance

>  Now, I
>would normally have taken "me" as an instrumental enclitic form of the
>stem "amha" in accordance with Aggava.msa. I don't yet know what
>Kaccaayana has to say about this in the Naamakappa but from reading
>Kacc-v 308 (cha.t.thii ca) "kato me kalyaa.no" is given as an example of
>the use of the sixth (genitive) case in the sense of the third which would
>include the instrumental agent. So one could take the "me" in the Channa
>quote as a genitive form. Kacc 308 & 309 together gives the genitive a
>very wide scope as it can take the place of 4 different cases in many
>instances and to add to the confusion there is the similarity of the forms
>of the dative or 4th case.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
>

[...]

#2253 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:02 am 
Subject: Re: Request for Jayamangala e-text 

Hi Eisel,

On 25 Sep 2007, at 22:46, Eisel Mazard wrote:

>  This Thai version is either a bit flawed, or simply differs from the
>  Sinhalese audio recording I have (e.g., "me" vs. "te" errors).
>
>  Does anyone have another e-text of this late paracanonical work?
>  Preferably one from a Sinhalese source?


This version is from _The Great Book of Protections_, a romanized
edition of the Sinhalese Catubhaa.navaara. In brackets I've given the
variants from the _Suat mon chabap luang_ ? the de facto "official"
chanting book of Thailand. Both use "te" throughout in the refrain,
though I do vaguely recall hearing Thai monks chant "me
jayama`ngalaani" in some rural monastery or other.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando



Buddhajayama`ngalagaathaa

baahu.m sahassam-abhinimmita-saayudha.m ta.m [-saavudhanta.m]
girimekhala.m udiitaghora-sasenamaara.m [griimekhala.m uditaghora-]
daanaadidhammavidhinaa jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani [tantejasaa throughout]

maaraatireka.m abhiyujjhita-sabbaratti.m [maaraatirekam-]
ghorampanaalavakamakkham-athaddhayakkha.m [ghorampanaa.lavakamakkham-]
khantiisudantavidhinaa jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

naalaagiri.m gajavara.m atimattabhuuta.m [naa.laagiri.m]
daavaggicakkam-asaniiva sudaaru.nanta.m
mettambusekavidhinaa jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

ukkhittakhaggam-atihatthasudaaru.nanta.m [-atihatthasudaaru.na.m ta.m]
dhaava.m tiyojanapatha`ngulimaalavanta.m [dhaavantiyojana-]
iddhiibhisa`nkhatamano jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

katvaana ka.t.tham-udara.m iva gabbhiniiyaa
ci~ncaaya du.t.thavacana.m janakaayamajjhe
santena somavidhinaa jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

sacca.m vihaaya matisaccakavaadaketu.m
vaadaabhiropitamana.m ati-andhabhuuta.m
pa~n~naapadiipajalito jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

nandopanandabhujaga.m vibuddha.m mahiddhi.m [vibudha.m]
puttena therabhujagena damaapayanto
iddhuupadesavidhinaa jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

duggaahadi.t.thibhujagena suda.t.thahattha.m
brahma.m visuddhi-jutim-iddhi-bakaabhidhaana.m
~naa.naagadenavidhinaa jitavaa munindo
ta.m tejasaa bhavatu te jayama`ngalaani

etaapi buddhajayama`ngala-a.t.thagaathaa
yo vaacako dinadine sarate matandi [vaacano, matandii]
hitvaananekavividhaani cupaddavaani
mokkha.m sukha.m adhigameyya naro sapa~n~no.

#2254 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:53 pm 
Subject: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Jim and Lance,

As I see it the problem is if suta.m is a noun like other neuter
ta-participles (there are many of them in the canon) or a ta-participle in
the neuter that does not depend on any noun in the neuter, but notheless
functis as a verb. It is invariably constructed with the genitive. me and te
are clitics and they cannot be interpreted as anything but genitives inspite
of the grammarians?claims. How about this example from the wonderful
Mahaa-Govinda-suttanta D II 247: yathaa kho pana me suta.m Brahmuno
aamagandhe bhaasamaanassa te na sunimmadayaa agaara.m ajjhavasataa etc.
I have come to the conclusion that the genitive Brahmuno etc. is governed by
suta.m as su.naati like in Sanskit is constructed with genitive of the
person speaking , but acc. of the things heard. There are some examples in
the canon that would corroborate this. However, it is puzzling.

Best,
Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 26. september 2007 08:52
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] te suta.m/me suta.m

Dear Jim,

>sammukhaa me ta.m aavuso Channa Bhagavato suta.m sammukhaa ca
>pa.tiggahita.m Kaccaanagotta.m bhikkhum ovadantassa:
>

[...]

#2255 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:51 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

I think this example is clearer if we go back to the original
occurrence at D II 242-3. There when Mahaagovinda is addressing
Brahma, we have first:
1. aamagandhe  va kho aha.m bhoto bhaasamaanassa na aajaanaami

and then after hearing Brahma's explanation:
2. yathaa kho aha.m bhoto aamagandhe bhaasamaanassa aajaanaami, te na
sunimmadayaa agaara.m ajjhavasataa etc.

then later when Mahaagovinda addresses King Re.nu, we have:
3. yathaa kho pana me suta.m Brahmuno aamagandhe bhaasamaanassa, te
na sunimmadayaa agaara.m ajjhavasataa etc.

Therefore 'aha.m  bhoto aajaanaami' in 2) corresponds to 'me suta.m
Brahmuno' in 3).

I would translate:

1. It is just corruptions that I do not understand when you speak of them.

2. As I understand corruptions when you speak of them, they are not ...

3. As I heard when Brahma was speaking of the corruptions, they ...

So the construction is a genitive absolute in each case. And the
present 'aha.m aajaanaami' corresponds to the past 'me suta.m'.

Or, do you understand differently ?

Lance

>Dear Jim and Lance,
>
>As I see it the problem is if suta.m is a noun like other neuter
>ta-participles (there are many of them in the canon) or a ta-participle in
>the neuter that does not depend on any noun in the neuter, but notheless
>functis as a verb. It is invariably constructed with the genitive. me and te
>are clitics and they cannot be interpreted as anything but genitives inspite
>of the grammarians?claims. How about this example from the wonderful
>Mahaa-Govinda-suttanta D II 247: yathaa kho pana me suta.m Brahmuno
>aamagandhe bhaasamaanassa te na sunimmadayaa agaara.m ajjhavasataa etc.
>I have come to the conclusion that the genitive Brahmuno etc. is governed by
>suta.m as su.naati like in Sanskit is constructed with genitive of the
>person speaking , but acc. of the things heard. There are some examples in
>the canon that would corroborate this. However, it is puzzling.
>
>Best,
>Ole

#2256 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:23 pm 
Subject: Re: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Lance,

Thanks for your remarks on "sammukhaa". "Suta.m" and "pa.tiggahita.m" are an
interesting pair and worth finding out more about in the commentaries but I
will have to defer that for another time. I think the main issue surrounding
"suta.m" in the discussions that Ole initiated has to do with whether or not
"suta.m" is an action noun (hearing). Somewhat controversial. I'm finding
the syntax of the D II 247 quote submitted by Ole to be much more difficult
to work out than the S III 134 one. It was interesting that you went back to
D II 242 as I did exactly the same thing. Those earlier passages and your
comments do help. I'll continue to ponder upon the matter...

Best wishes,
Jim

#2257 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:09 pm 
Subject: Re: Request for Jayamangala e-text 

I've now received three e-texts of the Jayamangala --many thanks to
all who replied to me on and off the list.

E.M.

#2258 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:11 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Request for Jayamangala e-text 

Bhante Dhammanando,

> Both use "te" throughout in the refrain,
> though I do vaguely recall hearing Thai monks chant "me
> jayama`ngalaani" in some rural monastery or other.

Perhaps this is related to the custom of optionally chanting
re-iterative verses that are sometimes added (informally or formally)
to give the merit/victory "to you", perhaps even "to me", etc.
--normally with only a single word varied.

E.M.

#2259 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:45 am 
Subject: SV: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Lance,

I think we confront one grammatical problem on top of the other: aajaanaami
occurs for the first time on p.241 of the PTS edition. It is there
constructed with the gen. bhoto. It is, I believe, one of the rare examples
of aajaanaaati used in in the sense of to approve or the like. It is
constructed with the genitive of the person approved. Only PW has this
information. As I understand the passage Brahma addresses Mahaagovinda?s
definition of the conditions of access to brahmaloka. Brahma quotes some of
them but says that he does not acknowledge his definition of aamagandha.
Then Govinda asks Brahma about the aamagandha. He answers and Govinda says
that he approves of him explaining the aamagandhe and concludes that they
are difficult to get rid of by someone living in a house and decides for
pabbajjaa. There is another unusual use of jaanaati p. 246 ff. It is
constructed with gen. pl. jiivitaana.m. This is to the best of my knowledge
the only example in the canon where it is used in the sense of to recall,
remember, known from the Mahaabhaarata. The expression ko ... jiivitaana.m
jaanaati seems to mean, who remembers the spans of life. Paa.nini II 3:52 is
interesting in this connection.

Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 26. september 2007 21:51
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: [palistudy] te suta.m/me suta.m

Dear Ole,

I think this example is clearer if we go back to the original occurrence at
D II 242-3. There when Mahaagovinda is addressing Brahma, we have first:
1. aamagandhe  va kho aha.m bhoto bhaasamaanassa na aajaanaami
and then after hearing Brahma's explanation:

[...]

#2260 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:15 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Ole,

We clearly read the passage somewhat differently. My understanding is
as follows:

D II 241 lines 8-11 Mahaagovinda ask Brahma Sana.mkumaara how one
reaches the Brahma world

lines 12-16 give Brahma Sana.mkumaara's verse reply

As regards 3 words or phrases in lines 12 and 13 (each cited with ti) we have:
aha.m bhoto aajaanaami followed in each case by a paragraph
explaining the meaning. I take these as the words of Mahaagovinda.
Then afterwards something like e.g.:
iti ekodibhuuto ti p' aha.m bhoto aajaanaami
"In this way I understand your <word/utterance> 'one-pointed'.
Here the first iti refers to Mahaagovinda's paragraph explaining the meaning.

As regards niraamagandho in line 14 we have the sentence I gave as 1) below.

Your point, of course, is that the absence of bhaasamaanassa in the
initial occurrences seems to rule out a genitive absolute - there, at
least. But it seems to me that the ti construction implies speech.
Or, we should read bhaasamaanassa in the earlier cases.

I do not have the full version of PW and my abridged version does not
seem to have the usage you cite. Do you know any other occurrence in
Pali ? The problem I find is that the sense of 'approve' doesn't seem
to fit the context. And I can't quite imagine that Mahaagovinda will
say that he 'approves' of Brahma Sana.mkumaara.

In any case we still have the correspondence between: 'aha.m  bhoto
aajaanaami' in 2) and 'me suta.m Brahmuno' in 3).

As regards jaanaati jiivitaana.m, your suggestion is interesting. My
own thought is that it ought to mean 'who knows about life-spans?'
i.e. we don't know how long we have to live, but I cannot see how to
justify that.

Lance

>Dear Lance,
>
>I think we confront one grammatical problem on top of the other: aajaanaami
>occurs for the first time on p.241 of the PTS edition. It is there
>constructed with the gen. bhoto. It is, I believe, one of the rare examples
>of aajaanaaati used in in the sense of to approve or the like. It is
>constructed with the genitive of the person approved. Only PW has this
>information. As I understand the passage Brahma addresses Mahaagovinda?s
>definition of the conditions of access to brahmaloka. Brahma quotes some of
>them but says that he does not acknowledge his definition of aamagandha.
>Then Govinda asks Brahma about the aamagandha. He answers and Govinda says
>that he approves of him explaining the aamagandhe and concludes that they
>are difficult to get rid of by someone living in a house and decides for
>pabbajjaa. There is another unusual use of jaanaati p. 246 ff. It is
>constructed with gen. pl. jiivitaana.m. This is to the best of my knowledge
>the only example in the canon where it is used in the sense of to recall,
>remember, known from the Mahaabhaarata. The expression ko ... jiivitaana.m
>jaanaati seems to mean, who remembers the spans of life. Paa.nini II 3:52 is
>interesting in this connection.
>
>Ole

[...]

#2261 From: "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:42 am 
Subject: Re: Pali studies in Kunming, China 

Kunming is the capital of Yunnan.  Yunnan is the most southwestern province
in China.  It shares border with Myanmar, Laos and Vietnam.  Together with
Guangxi, Guizhou and Sichuan, Yunnan has many non-Han ethnic groups, some of
them practise a form of Theravada Buddhism.

The largest of these groups are the Zhuang people, who mainly practise
traditional religion.  This group forms the largest minority in China, far
outnumbering the better known Mongolians and Tibetans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuang

Another significant group in this part of China is the Hmong people, who are
also spread across Indochina, where they originated.  Hmong is the fourth
largest minority in China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people

Yet, another large group is the Yi people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_people

Although China is now communist, Chinese culture is very tolerant of
minority groups, and these groups, including the Manchus, Muslims (Hui),
Mongolians and Tibetans in the north, are free to practise their own
religions and preserve their language, culture and traditions.

A smaller group, the Tai/Dai group mainly concentrates in Yunnan, and are
followers of Theravada Buddhism.  They are closely related to the Thais and
the Thai Lue in Laos.  In Xishuanbanna, there are over 500 Buddhist temples,
and more than 200 pagodas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xishuangbanna_Dai_Autonomous_Prefecture

In a more recent news, the Chinese government is constructing the largest
Theravada temple cum centre in Xishuanbanna.

http://www.yn.chinanews.com.cn/news/sudi/2007/924/07924104023B1AH7BA0FCJ8HF93H5E\
C.html

The Yunnan area is more popularly known as Dali in pre-Communist China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali%2C_Yunnan


metta,
Yong Peng.


On 9/21/07, Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   I note that the Chinese government is opening a Pali and
> classical-Tibetan studies centre in Kunming (with Chinese as the
> language of instruction for the other two languages). Any
> "intelligence" on this new institution would be welcome.
>
> The official press is here:
> english.peopledaily.com.cn/english/200102/23/eng20010223_63205.html
>

#2262 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:42 pm 
Subject: SV: SV: SV: te suta.m/me suta.m 

Dear Lance,

I am still puzzled by the syntax of the passages we have been discussing. I
think that we must start with finding a solution to the syntax of the phrase
ekodibhuuto ti caaha.m bhoto aajaanaami, because it determines how we
interpret other statements like aamagandhe  ... Bhoto bhaasamaanassa na
aajaaanaami, and me suta.m Brahmuno aamagandhe bhaasamaanassa etc.
I am uncertain about how to interpret them, but I do not think that we are
confronting instances of genitive absolute as they do not entail
constructions with an accusative as the two last examples show. I have to
admit that at the moment I have no solution to the problem, and the Sanskrit
rewriting of this text as found in the Mahaavastu III 197 ff. tries to solve
some of the problems, but in my opinion without success.

Ole
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 27. september 2007 22:15
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: SV: [palistudy] te suta.m/me suta.m

Dear Ole,

We clearly read the passage somewhat differently. My understanding is as
follows:

[...]

#2263 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:00 am 
Subject: PTS Subodhaala"nkaara with 2 .tiikaas 

Dear members,

I recently received a book relating to rhetoric in the mail from PTS and
thought I would give some description of it for your information.

The book contains three Pali texts with the following titles given on the
title page:

Subodhaala"nkaara
Poraa.na-.tiikaa (Mahaasaami-.tiikaa)
Abhinava-.tiikaa (Nissaya)

This is an edition (xix+315 pp.) prepared by Padmanabh S. Jaini and
published by PTS in 2000. The work is based on the Buddhasaasanasamiti
edition published in Rangoon, 1964. He includes variant readings from the
footnotes in that edition and unusual readings from Siilaacaara's edition
published in Mandalay, 1928. Jaini's text looks very much the same as the
Subodhaala"nkaara-.tiikaa text on the Cha.t.thasa"ngaayana CD. I notice that
the title of the CSCD version suggests nothing about it actually containing
two .tiikaas (the old & new one). The Subodhaala"nkaara is a short work
consisting of 367 verses. The arrangement is that a verse is given first and
this is followed by each of the two commentaries on that particular verse
and then the next verse is taken up followed by the two commentaries and so
on. Sa"ngharakkhita, a Sinhalese monk of the 13th cent. is the author of the
Subodhaala"nkaara and the Pora.na-.tiikaa. The Abhinava-.tiikaa is taken as
an anonymous work by Jaini even though the work is ascribed, according to
oral tradition, to Dhammakitti-Ratanapajjota living during the reign of King
Narapati (1442-68) in Burma. Jaini discusses his doubts about the authorship
of this .tiikaa in his Introduction.

The text is divided up into 5 chapters (paricchedas) as follows:

1. Dosaavabodha (Faults of Composition)
2. Dosaparihaaraavabodha (Avoidance of the Faults)
3. Gu.naavabodha (Merits of Composition)
4. Atthaala"nkaaraavabodha (Rhetorical Figures)
5. Rasabhaavaavabodha (Poetic Sentiments)

Title translations are from the Introduction, p. xv. There are three short
indexes at the back of the book.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2264 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 7, 2007 1:42 am 
Subject: EM's Pali Website update 

An update to my website.

For technical reasons, it now should be easier for "bad" computers to
read; the data was (laboriously) re-coded from UTF-16 to the lower
standard of UTF-8.

It now states my location as Yunnan, China, rather than Lao P.D.R
--although this is certainly not a permanent residence for me.

A few new tables have been added to the section on pronunciation,
along with the following provocative note on slave labour in the
manuscriptoria of Thailand (I checked with Filliozat before publishing
this to the web):

[Start Quote]  "In Filliozat's catalogue of the Wat Po collection of
manuscripts (viz., poorly copied from Sinhalese sources, into Khom
script, in the second quarter of the 19th century, in Bangkok), she
comments on the confusion of r vs. h as the most peculiar of the
numerous transliteration errors made by the scribes, such as a scribe
reading hemayavatthu and writing out romayavatthu. In sum, the abysmal
quality of the MS demonstrates "that the scribes had no real
understanding of Pali language or were not paying attention to the
meaning", but she remarks that confusion of r & h is especially
inexplicable as they "cannot be confused in any script". This only
seems true if the scripts under consideration Khom and Sinhalese only;
however, the confusion is easier to understand if we keep in mind that
the Bangkok court was (at that time) brim-full of educated slave
labour brought back as captives from the total depopulation, sacking,
and incineration of Vientiane in 1828. (This may also give some
context to the lack of zeal on the part of the scribes!) Even if they
were put to the task of copying Sinhalese into Khom, "r" in the latter
would have resembled "h" in the script they were most familair with
--viz., Lao. [See: The Pali Manuscript Collection Kept in the Vat Phra
Jetuphon Vimol Mangklaram (Vat Po) the Oldest Royal Monastery of
Bangkok, Jacqueline Filliozat, cole Franaise d'Extrme-Orient,
2002-2003]."   [End Quote]

And, for the first time, a photo of myself appears on the website.
This photograph was taken by Bhadanta Nyanatusita, also a list member,
and manages to make the Pali manuscripts surrounding me glitter with
the reflected images of the surrounding temple and statues.

http://pali.pratyeka.org/#Mazard

I note this as many of the members of this list have never met me, and
probably assume that I resemble the young Richard Hayes.

Probably about two months from now I'll release my final update to
Narada's Pali course (more corrections, new tables in place of old,
etc.).

E.M.

#2265 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:05 am 
Subject: Two useful resources for Shan manuscripts 

The following book from B.J. Teriwel has been extensively scanned and
made available (for free) on-line --including many illustrations and
colour photographs of manuscripts.

They reserve the catalogue of MS and a few odd pages (to encourage you
to buy the book) --but, I note, the book has no English title!

The cover is beautiful, but simply bears a full paragraph of text in
old Shan script --so "good luck" finding this in a library or
bookstore --as nobody knows how to transliterate Shan, and, indeed
there is no "standard" for this language.

The shortcut URL is below stated first, followed by the full text of
the URL reference (both will lead to the same "place"):

http://tinyurl.com/34eyd6

http://www.google.ca/books?id=uPr2RmV_yy0C&pg=PA13&dq=%22shan+script%22&sig=uUgC\
BU-MRNdClGKQiXE6uGs8pps#PPA29,M1

I would also mention that I have lately read "The History and
Development of the Shan Scripts" by Sai Kam Mong.

Although it does not excel at everything it attempts, this is an
excellent book.  I recall a line from Strindberg:
   "Why did they give him all those medals?"
   "For his outstanding merits."
   "Has he no faults?"
   "He has, but no medals for them."

As I already knew a great deal of the orthography (and history) of the
adjacent plots of land, but little-to-nothing about Shan itself, it
was highly enjoyable for me to read Sai Kam Mong's account, as it
filled in a considerable blank at the centre of the "world" that I
have been studying (i.e., the Shan and Wa do seem to stand at a kind
of fulcrum, around which Burma, Laos, etc., all turn).

As alluded to, it is not "without faults", but it deserves acclaim nevertheless.

E.M.

#2266 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:35 am 
Subject: Kacc 10 revisited 

Last year Jim Anderson initiated (on July 3) a discussion of the word adho.thita.m in Kacc 10.  The discussion, as I recall, failed to reach any consensus, but I was surprised to note
this same issue raised by J. D'Alwis, in his book "An Introduction to Kachch?yana's
Grammar of the Pali Language", Colombo, 1863.  In a footnote he reports what his pandits
told him:

Adho.thitam "that which stands below [after such separation.]" The word 'below' must
however be understood to mean 'preceding'; for in composition, which Eastern writers
regard as a tree from bottom to top, the first-written character in considered as being at
the bottom or below the rest.  (p. xvii)

This may not be a viable solution to the problem, but it is interesting to find
it already in the first serious Western attempt to understand Kaccaayana.

Some of us may not know that D'Alwis' book is available for download (as a
photocopy.pdf) on Google Book Search.  There is also Clough's 1824 Pali grammar
(purported to be a 'translation' of Balavatara) and Nyanatiloka's dictionary of
Buddhist terms.

(Clough, 1824) http://books.google.com/books?
id=2CsMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=subject:%22pali+language%
22&as_brr=1&ei=1LAzR_qsMo-8pgL_25DLDw#PPP1,M1

(D'Alwis 1863)
http://books.google.com/books?id=K_k_AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=subject:%
22pali+language%22&as_brr=1#PPP1,M1

(Nyanatiloka) http://books.google.com/books?
id=ztIxd_OGs3YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=subject:%22pali+language%
22&as_brr=1&sig=-367Q_h_n8Zrnc4_2hsYIJvCOvM

George Bedell

#2267 From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:36 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

Dear George,

Thank-you for bringing these books and links to our attention. I did not
know that D'Alwis and Clough's books could be downloaded. I tried to
download D'Alwis' grammar in pdf (14 MB) but only got one page in HTML.
I will try again another time. The plain text version is obviously
machine-read and in need of proofreading.

About two months ago, I spent some time studying the Mukhamattadiipanii
commentary on Kacc 10 but only managed to get half way through before
turning to another subject-matter. I intend to get back into it again later
in the hope of finding a satisfactory solution to the problem. I like the
tree analogy for describing a composition. It seems that, in contrast to
"pubba" (before), "adho.thita" might be conveying the sense of something
much more immediate (adjacent).

Within the next two weeks, I should be uploading a short article written by
Ole in 1991 and originally published in a Japanese journal. The title is
_Buddhaghosa---His Works and Scholarly Background_.
It just needs a bit more proofreading.

Best wishes,
Jim

Message -----
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 8:35 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Kacc 10 revisited


Last year Jim Anderson initiated (on July 3) a discussion of the word
adho.thita.m in Kacc 10.  The discussion, as I recall, failed to reach any
consensus, but I was surprised to note this same issue raised by J. D'Alwis,
in his book "An Introduction to Kachch?yana's Grammar of the Pali Language",
Colombo, 1863.  In a footnote he reports what his pandits told him:

[...]

#2268 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:38 pm 
Subject: Report from Yunnan, misc. comments on Kacc 10, digital textbooks, recent articles, etc. 

The availability of these books in digital format is certainly
something "new" --I remember searching for such things back when I
began this project on Kaccayana (now years ago ... and in distant
Hong-Kong).

As I mentioned in the introduction to my "edition" of Duroiselle's
grammar, I found a Rhys-Davids' own copy of D'Alwis in Sri Lanka --but
have not seen it since.

I wrote a pair of long footnotes on the verses in question, and I am
satisfied with Ole's explanation of the matter (viz., that it is
orthographic in principle).  This does not mean that I would entirely
disregard other explanations, some of which are at least amusing
enough to merit mention in these footnotes.

I've mentioned before that Mason has an interesting but incorrect
explanation of the same issue, drawing from Burmese oral tradition.

While here in Yunnan, I had time to create my "final" revision of (1)
Narada's grammar, (2) Duroiselle's grammar, and (3) for the first time
to create a revised PDF of Dr Lily DeSilva's textbook.

After updating Narada and Duroiselle's texts roughly once a year for
several years, I do not plan to make further revisions beyond these
"2008 editions".  Many errors have been corrected (and new glossaries
concoted for #1 & #3), but, of course, nothing can be claimed to be
perfect.

As always, the most important functional change is always the creation
of new tables --a time-consuming process-- but at long last (e.g.)
Narada's tables of personal pronouns (a complete mess even when they
were in print in the original, paper edition) are truly legible and
useful.

If anyone wants these new digital editions immediately, I will e-mail
them off-list (along with the new versions of the glossaries; for De
Silva, too, I created one with two asian scripts alongisde the
romanization).

My own website is now extremely unlikely to be updated ... for reasons
including the fact that the guy who operates the server is now
considering/planning to run away to Sri Lanka and ordain as a monk.
Of course, I wished him luck, and provided him with a map of the key
monasteries he will need to know, based on Nyanatusita's writing in
this genre --but it is slightly inconvenient for myself.

Regarding Pali here "on the mainland": it was reported to me from
India that "three Chinese girls and a guy" (apparently from a
university of some kind, perhaps in Beijing?) materialized in Pune,
Maharastra, and reported that they want to learn Pali.  This may or
may not represent the sum total of Pali studies in a nation of over
one billion persons; but in either case it is encouraging.  These
students were described to me as "childish and deferential" --but,
perhaps, this reflects the inter-cultural friction of mainland Chinese
in India (the latter would be an extremely intimidating environment
for most, but especially for the children of the elite who generally
dominate PhD programmes here).

I will investigate the (perhaps chimerical) Pali-and-Tibetan studies
centre in Kunming, but I am awaiting the arrivial of one of two
colleagues who are fluent in Chinese before asking questions in this
vein.

Kunming academia seems to include several persons of interest (viz.,
Western researchers living here) who are also interested in my
studies, from other disciplines such as anthropology.  If anyone on
the list has further suggestions of specialists whom I should "look
up", please do let me know.

While in Yunnan, I had time to prepare a short article on the modern
history of Cambodia, and I mention this now (briefly) for several
reasons.  As I have read more and more about the issue, I have
realized that there is practically no English source in print that
states the correct answer to the question, "precisely when and why did
the Americans begin supporting the Khmer Rouge ("Pol Pot", etc.)?"
--on the contrary, there are several authoritative sources that give
no answer, or vaguely state incorrect answers (perhaps only "vaguely"
because of the authors' uncertainty on the matter).  This issue was
mentioned and briefly discussed on this list, now over one year ago.
It seems that the journal I had in mind to publish this has ceased to
exist --and the editors' e-mail-boxes have certainly disappeared.  The
only forum I can think of for such a thing would be the IIAS
"newsletter", or possibly the JCAS ("Journal of Critical Asian
Studies") --but I would strongly prefer something published in Asia,
and actually read by Asians.  If anyone can suggest a publication, or
send me a salient editor's e-mail, I would be grateful.

Even less related to Pali studies, and so mentioned even more briefly,
my article on deforestation in Laos was translated into Thai, and now
is available on the web in both languages, I'm glad to say (as most
educated Laotians can also read Thai).

Yunnan has been extremely welcoming to me.

Many voices are suggesting that I simply, "stay forever" --and this is
perhaps the first place in Asia that I have been tempted to do so.

This is quite unexpected, as I only thought of this part of China as a
very temporary "shelter" while setting my affairs in order.

Obversely, relocating to Cambodia has become a moot issue, as I
clarified (in e-mail discussions with her) that Mme Filliozat will not
be relocating to Phnom Penh as I had thought, but plan to spend next
winter there, and perhaps many winters more in the future.  I have
seriously suggested to her that she could have some kind of informal
programme to pass on her experience and knowledge of Pali manuscripts
to the next generation (e.g., me!) while she is in Cambodia;
currently, she has a few japanese "students" (or "followers"), but
they are professional librarians, not Palicists.

It is quite possible that I will still end up in a Burmese border
refugee camp, or in a Thai university town, but both are bleak
contrasts to life here in "Xipxongpanna" (viz., the still slightly
Theravada area of China).

In terms of manuscripts, etc., this area of China is potentially
important.  In brief: the old Shan tradition (viz., "Yuan" Buddhism,
before it was reformed/destroyed by the central Burmese church in the
19th century) existed here intact until the cultural revolution (of
the late 20th century); and, on the other hand, traditional Dai Lue
Buddhism (viz., "northern Lao") existed here without the destruction
wrought by the American bombers.  However, local enthusiasm for Maoism
may have been just as thorough in destroying the books.

(I still have not been able to arrange a meeting with the UNESCO
manuscript researcher stationed here.)

Now, while destruction of another kind is ongoing in Burma, one may be
sure that manuscripts are crossing the border, along with the jade and
other commodities, both legal and illegal, that flow into this part of
China.

One intelligent fellow who is not at all Buddhist (rather, one might
say, his religion is beer) reported to me that what is now happening
here under the patronage of tourism and officialdom is, "the death of
Dai Buddhism".  He was lamenting this in insightful terms after
visiting the grand opening of a "theme-park" sized monastic complex
that the government just opened outside of Jinghong.  Of course, there
is really nothing monastic about it, and there are turnstiles at
various points to exact money from visitors, etc., and a mix of crude
Mahayana idols among the (concrete) attempts to replicate Dai buddhism
from Thai models, etc.

E.M.

#2269 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:17 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 10 revisited 

Dear Jim,

<It seems that, in contrast to "pubba" (before), "adho.thita" might be
conveying the sense of something much more immediate (adjacent)>

In the commentary adho "below" contrasts with upari "above." The same
distinction is found in Vararuci?s prakrit grammar. It is really very
simple. Tatra, for instance is written ta + tr + a. r is written below t and
is therefore adho. A is implied when writing the conjunct tr. When adding
tatra to ayam one disjoins the a of tatra and joins it with the following a
of ayam above the line to yield tatraayam. The treatment of conjuncts in
Vararuci?s grammar is the same. The first rule of chapter III, for instance,
historical k in the conjunct bhattam < bhaktam is described as above
(upari), elided, and the following t as doubled. In the case of sossam <
sushma the letter below (adho) m is elided. This distinction would seem to
be strange to people who do not write conjuncts one on top of the other but
horizontally.

Ole Pind

#2270 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:30 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

Ole,

   I agree that your orthographic interpretation makes sense --but I
would add that the other interpretations DO NOT make sense.

   I pored over the other options presented to me, but, in the final
analysis, there is no viable alternative to the orthographic
explanation (that I know of).

   The alternate explanations do, simply, look like attempts to
over-compensate for the fact that the author does not understand the
verse, and I agree that the use of "above" and "below" is
non-ambiguous in this context.

E.M.

#2271 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:49 am 
Subject: SV: Kacc 10 revisited 

Eisel,

   <I agree that your orthographic interpretation makes sense --but I would
add that the other interpretations DO NOT make sense>

  Indeed, they don?t. Let?s agree on conveying all other suggestions to the
dustbin of untenable interpretations.

Ole Pind

#2272 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:54 am 
Subject: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

>  Indeed, they don?t. Let?s agree on conveying all other suggestions to the
>  dustbin of untenable interpretations.

Sincerely, my impression is that the dustbin is already full, even overflowing:

Anything more we attempt to throw inside will simply fall out again
--sometimes taking other refuse with it.

E.M.

#2273 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:16 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

Dear Ole,

I agree that Vararuci's interpretation must be taken into account in
determining the meaning and application of Kacc 10 & 11 and I would
very much like to study the relevant source passages in Vararuci's Prakrit
grammar as soon as I can get a hold of it. I would also like to understand
the meaning and application of these two suttas from the point of view of
the traditional commentators on Kacc which seems to differ from that of
Vararuci. Although the /r/ in the conjunct /tr/ is given as an example in
the sutta, I don't think that necessarily implies a restriction of the rule
to the final consonant of a conjunct cluster.

Regards,
Jim

Jim:
<It seems that, in contrast to "pubba" (before), "adho.thita" might be
conveying the sense of something much more immediate (adjacent)>

Ole:
<<In the commentary adho "below" contrasts with upari "above." The same
distinction is found in Vararuci?s prakrit grammar. It is really very
simple. Tatra, for instance is written ta + tr + a. r is written below t and
is therefore adho. A is implied when writing the conjunct tr. When adding
tatra to ayam one disjoins the a of tatra and joins it with the following a
of ayam above the line to yield tatraayam. The treatment of conjuncts in
Vararuci?s grammar is the same. The first rule of chapter III, for instance,
historical k in the conjunct bhattam < bhaktam is described as above
(upari), elided, and the following t as doubled. In the case of sossam <
sushma the letter below (adho) m is elided. This distinction would seem to
be strange to people who do not write conjuncts one on top of the other but
horizontally.>>

#2274 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:52 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

It is true that Vararuci uses 'upari' and 'adho' to refer to the first and second consonants in a cluster.  It is also true that in some Indian orthographies, consonant clusters are written vertically.  Whether or how these two facts are related is, however, a matter of speculation.  One might imagine, if Vararuci composed in an oral context, that the terminology influenced the development of orthography, rather than the reverse.
	 The rules of Vararuci (3.1 and 3.2 in Cowell's edition) explicitly concern consonant clusters and what happens to them when Sanskrit is 'Prakritized'.  They are neither sandhi rules nor orthographic instruction.  Kaccaayana (and the other Pali grammarians), did not compose such 'transfer grammars', but rather tried to treat Pali as an independent language.  Though Kaccaayana is surely later than Vararuci, there is no obvious reason to think that he borrowed this terminology.
	 Ole:
<< In the commentary adho "below" contrasts with upari "above." The same distinction is found in Vararuci?s prakrit grammar. It is really very simple. Tatra, for instance is written ta + tr + a. r is written below t and is therefore adho. A is implied when writing the conjunct tr. When adding tatra to ayam one disjoins the a of tatra and joins it with the following a of ayam above the line to yield tatraayam. The treatment of conjuncts in Vararuci?s grammar is the same. The first rule of chapter III, for instance, historical k in the conjunct bhattam < bhaktam is described as above(upari), elided, and the following t as doubled. In the case of sossam < sushma the letter below (adho) m is elided. This distinction would seem to be strange to people who do not write conjuncts one on top of the other but horizontally. >>?
	 Considerations:
(i)  In a given orthography, a cluster like 'tr' is written (vertically or horizontally) in exactly the same way whether its vowel is affected by sandhi or not.  Why does the sutta specify'adho'?
(ii)  Conversely, sandhi affects vowels in exactly the same way when preceded by single consonants as when preceded by clusters.  (Jim's point, I think.)
(iii)  How can a statement which refers to something not orthographically present (the inherent 'a') be an orthographic statement?
(iv)  'Viyoga' cannot refer to orthographic separation.  In Indian orthographies, a vowel which is separated from a preceding consonant is written either with a separate letter (one for each vowel) or by the letter for initial a with the corresponding diacritic form of the vowel.
	 I do not agree that the orthographic interpretation of Kacc 10 is 'very simple' or'makes sense'.  Rather it seems as contrived as anything in the dustbin.

George Bedell

#2275 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:23 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

George,

Please keep in mind that Ole and myself do not maintain that this
verse is a masterpiece of lucid reasoning --on the contrary, it now
appears out-of-place and out-of-order in the Kaccayana-Vyakarana that
exists today.

This is hardly unique in the text; we have a large number of verses
that are in the wrong place, for the wrong reason --and make little
sense in their current context.

However, the specific claim that "below" here really means
"underneath" (rather than "at the beginning, etc.) does indeed seem
entirely true and correct to me.

> One might imagine, if Vararuci composed in an oral context, that
> the terminology influenced the development of orthography, rather than the
reverse.

No.

That's just chronologically impossible.  Even ancient Sinhala puts a
subjoined "r" beneath in the sequence "tr", "br" (etc.) from a very
early date; in South-East Asia, it is already found in the earliest
imaginable Pyu and Oc-Eo insciptions.  No-homogenous, stacked
consonant clusters go back to Ashoka (although he omits homogenous
double consonants in general, such as "tt", "kk", etc.) and (as I
vaguely recall) these can be found even the pre-Ashokan inscriptions
of Sri Lanka.

> (ii) Conversely, sandhi affects vowels in exactly the same way when preceded by single
> consonants as when preceded by clusters.

No.

As in English, Pali has rules that concern the different quality of
vowels following after a single consonant vs. a geminate cluster
(viz., long vs. short).  Thus all the rules about how doubling a
consonant can shorten the vowel following; similarly, a geminate
cluster can define the vowel following, but this is more likely to be
important in discussing derivation from a root, etymology, etc.

E.M.

#2276 
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:43 pm 
Subject: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

> As in English, Pali has rules that concern the different quality of
> vowels following after a single consonant vs. a geminate cluster
> (viz., long vs. short).  Thus all the rules about how doubling a
> consonant can shorten the vowel following; similarly, a geminate
> cluster can define the vowel following, but this is more likely to be
> important in discussing derivation from a root, etymology, etc.

Eisel,

I think you refer to the Pali rules which affect the length of a vowel which precedes (not follows) a consonant cluster.  Perhaps you could supply a concrete example where the quality or sandhi behavior of a vowel depends on the preceding consonant structure.

George

#2277 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:08 pm 
Subject: B. Clough's 1824 Pali grammar

Dear Members,

Here's some detailed information on one of the two books George mentioned a
few days ago. On the tilte page is the following:

A Compendious Pali Grammar, with a copious vocabularly in the same language.
By the Rev. Benjamin Clough. Colombo: Printed at the Wesleyan Mission Press.
1824

On the back of the page is stamped:

  HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY
       FROM THE ESTATE OF
CHARLES ROCKWELL LANMA N
            MARCH 15. 1941

This shows that this particular copy once belonged to C.R. Lanman. There
appears to be no table of contents in the book so I put one together as
follows:

I. Of the Elements. pp. 1-8;  1-16
II. On the Permutation of Letters. pp. 9-17;  17-58
III. Declension of Nouns. pp. 17-52:  59-84
IV. Declension of Pronouns and Pronominal Attributes. pp. 52-68;  85-107
V. Indeclinable Words. pp. 68-77;  108-117
VI. On the Formation of Compound Words. pp. 77-88;  118-125
VII. On the Formation of Derivative Words. pp. 88-99;  126-134
VIII. Conjugattion of Verbs. pp. 99-112;  135-156
IX. On the Formation of Participles and Participial Nouns. pp. 112-123;
X. Syntax. pp. 123-147
Pali Verbs. pp. 1-4 [Go to page 150 for page 2]

According to the advertisement (p. iv) the book should contain three main
parts making up a total of 324 pages but the last part consisting of 156
pages (the vocabulary) is missing in the Google scan and it would seem that
only the first 4 of 20 pages of the middle part (the Pali verbal roots) are
included. On p. iii, the author claims that no book on the Pali language had
ever been published before---making this one the first of its kind. The book
contains a lot of Sinhalese printing for the Pali words. It seems that the
work was originally begun by W. Tolfrey and completed by Rev. B. Clough. I
have included below the entire advertisement (or preface) after some
proofreading and correcting:

[p. iii]                     ADVERTISEMENT.

     THESE works were first undertaken by the justly ceJebrated Oriental
Linguist W. TOI,FREY, Esq. late of H. M. Civil Service in Cevlon.  The
former work was considerably advanced by that Gentleman, and the latter also
brought into a state of great forwardness. They are now completed, revised,
and corrected.
     The Pali has undoubtedly a high claim to the attention of the literary
world.  It has long been a contested point whether the Pali or Sanskrit be,
the more ancient language of India ; it is certain, that Pali was (he
popular dialect of the nalive country of Buddho, namely Magadha, before the
powerful sect founded by him, was expelled from the continent of India, an
event prior to the Christian  ra. Jts literature contains a considerable
number of volumes both in prose and verse ; which, whatever may be their
merits in other respects, form the only authentic depositary of Budclhism,
and the learning in general of Ceylon, and the whole of India beyond the
Ganges, to which the Pali now is, and has been for many centuries, what
Sanskrit is in India Proper, and Latin in Europe.

                                               [ iv. ]

     But although so ancient, so widely spread, and containing so many
valuable records of antiquity, yet nothing has hitherto been published
respecting the Pali language;  hence in many excellent papers in the Asiatic
Researches it still appears as an unknown world. It is therefore hoped that
a short Grammar with a Vocabulary, cannot fail of being acceptable to the
learned in general.

     The Grammar is chiefly a translation of a celebrated Work called
Baalaavataara, and the Vocabulary of nouns, of one equally famed
Abhidhaanappadipikaa.  To which also is added, by the editor, the
Dhaatuma~njuusa, or a collection of Pali roots with a Pali interpretation,
and the third person singular of the present tense of the verbs formed from
each root, with an English translation.

<end quote>

This may be a suitable work for the group to study as it's accessible (in
the public domain) and it's supposedly a translation of an important Pali
grammatical work belonging to the Kaccaayana school.

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson

#2278 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:15 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

Hi George,

   (1) Sorry for a rushed reply (viz., earlier).  I ran over to start
up my Mac after sending that message, and looked at my own work on the
verse in question (which is better than my memory of it proved to be)
--and I'm now back at the internet terminal to write to you again.
I'm just recovering from a Yunnanese head-cold.

   (2) Let's go back to the actual Pali verse in question here:
   [1-1-11:] "The adjoined leading [letter] of the other [word] ...
[1-1-10:] having been before, [the adjoining leading letter of the
other word] with its vowel may be separated and set below."
   Pind's explanation is in part affirmed by the fact that verses
1-1-10 and 1-1-11 are indeed "in reverse order" --and only make sense
if read backwards.  If you find this translation / explanation equally
as untenable as the Sinhalese theories, all I can say is "just look at
the Pali".
   The only part of the translation that is questionable is what I have
translated at the end of the phrase: "separated and set below".  To
me, the meaning of this is quite clear, and only becomes obfuscated by
claims that "below" is instead supposed to mean "before" or "at the
beginning", etc.

   (3) Yeah, you're right: in general, I was thinking of the length of
the vowel before the geminate, but I was also mixing this up with some
(half-remembered) rules about long vs. short vowels after (e.g.) a
double-s.  Such rules exist, but are doubtless spurious to the point
you were making.

E.M.

#2279 From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:26 am 
Subject: Kacc 1-2-9 revisited! ("Do dhassa ca") 

To redeem myself after at least one (head-cold inspired) stupid
comment on verse 1-1-10, here's a new observation on the other "hotly
contested" verse, 1-2-9.

Consider:
      Apidahati = api + dhaa

Thus, indeed, "do dhassa ca" --viz., a de-aspirated "da" serves as a
substitute for "dhaa".

Thus, it seems to me the rule may be true in some sense, if applied in
a way that is radically unrelated to its current context --and
certainly unrelated to the current example provided for it (idha.m +
eva, already excoriated in Dr. Pind's article, section 40).

E.M.

#2280 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:59 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Kacc 10 revisited 

George,

(i)  In a given orthography, a cluster like 'tr' is written (vertically or
horizontally) in exactly the same way whether its vowel is affected by
sandhi or not.  Why does the sutta specify 'adho'?

Because /r/ of the cluster /tr/ is written adho.t.thitam i.e. below /t/:
consequently /a/ of tra has to be put above the line in order to be
graphically joined to the a of ayam. This would not have been possible, if
the two a?s were joined below the line, for the long a would then be hanging
below the line with /y/ of the following word above the line. Orthographic
practice, however, writes long a above the line. The terms "above" and
"below" are incomprehensible as referring to anything but orthography.
I think that at least some of the so-called sandhi rules were based upon ms
readings of particular texts. Dhammapada comes in handy in this context as
the example shows.

<I do not agree that the orthographic interpretation of Kacc 10 is 'very
simple' or 'makes sense'.  Rather it seems as contrived as anything in the
dustbin>

Alright! There is, however, plenty of evidence available from inscriptions
that would support my interpretation.

Ole Pind

#2281 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:24 am 
Subject: The dubious case of Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

Just this month, Thailand's Mahidol University launched a small PhD
programme in Buddhist studies.

Reportedly, reading ability in Pali and Sanskrit is a focus.  Of
course, they don't yet have a reputation, as they were founded in
2007, but one tries to read the announcement with an open mind.

The list of professors is not without interest:
* Pathompong Bodhiprasiddhinand
   DPhil in Oriental Studies (Oxford University, UK)
* Justin Meiland
   DPhil in Oriental Studies (Oxford University, UK)
* Alexander Wynne
   DPhil in Oriental Studies (Oxford University, UK)
* Sumana Tangkanasingh
   PhD in Culture and Musuemology (Grenoble University, France)
* Taveevat Puntarigvivat
   PhD in Religions and Society (Temple University, USA)
* Pagorn Singsuriya
   PhD in Philosophy (Chulalongkorn University, Thailand)

The trouble is that this is "backed up" with a long list of supposed
"academic advisors" --and here I must suspect they are misleading the
public.

This list (below) is inherently difficult to believe, but to make
matters worse, I have just received an e-mail request passed on from
their most senior professor (first named in the list above) asking if
anyone could provide him with Dr. Hundius's e-mail, as he has just
figured out that he is a difficult man to find (given his emeritus
status, etc.).  How could Hundius possibly have any involvement with
the Mahidol project whatsoever, without any of their professors either
having his e-mail, or at least fore-knowledge of the fact that he is
indeed retired, and how to contact him via the department secretary,
etc.?  Perhaps he once made a brief appearance there, and is now
listed as an "Academic Advisor to the Programme" --but there is ever
the possibility of outright fraud.  Nor is there any obvious
connection to German academia in their list of professors.  I'm sure
that a few eyebrows will be raised for some of the other names on the
list, below, as well:

"Honorary Academic Advisors to the Programme

1.Most Venerable Phra Prommuni (Junda), Pali Grade 9
Director General, Mahamakuta Rajavidyalaya Foundation, Under Royal Patronage,
Wat Bovornivesviharn, Bangkok

2.Most Venerable Phra Promgunaporn (Prayudh Payutto), Pali Grade 9, PhD (Honoris
Causa)
Wat Yanawessakawan, Nakornpathom

3.Ven Phra Sriyansophon (Suwit Piyavijjo), Pali Grade 9, BA Hons
(Mahamakut), MA (London)
Wat Phraramkao (Rama IX Temple)

4.Prof Emeritus Visudh Busyakul, PhD in Sanskrit (Honoris Causa),
Chulalongkorn University
Fellow of the Royal Institute of Thailand

5.Prof Dr Richard Gombrich, DPhil in Oriental Studies (Oxon, UK)
Director of Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies (OCBS), Oxford University, UK

6.Prof Dr Oskar von Hinueber, PhD in Oriental Studies, Mainz University, Germany
Freiburg University, Germany

7.Mr Lance Cousins, MA in Oriental Studies (Cantab), Former President
of the Pali Text Society
Wolfson College, Oxford University.

8.Prof Dr Nalini Balbir, Doctorat de 3 ?me cycle en ?tudes indiennes
(Universit? Paris-3), Doctorat d'Etat ?s-lettres (Universit? Paris-3)
Directeur d'?tudes (philologie moyen-indienne) ? l'Ecole Pratique des
Hautes Etudes, Section des sciences historiques et philologiques

9.Prof Dr Janet Gyatso, PhD in Buddhist Studies, University of
California at Berkely
Harvard Divinity School, Harvard University

10.Dr Peter Skilling, PhD in Buddhist Studies (Ecole Pratique des
Hautes Etudes, Sciences
Historiques et Philologiques a la Sorbonne, Paris, France)
Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient (Bangkok and Paris)

11.Dr Prapod Assavavirulkarn, PhD in Buddhist Studies, University of
California at Berkely
Head of the Department of Oriental Languages, Faculty of Arts,
Chulalongkorn University"



E.M.

#2282 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

EM

It is very encouraging to see a new programme in Pali studies -
desperately needed. Pathompong is very much to be congratulated for
his organizational skills and enthusiasm in gathering together such a
group. I do not know all of the staff involved, but Justin Meiland
and Alex Wynne at least are very well capable of running a programme
of this kind.

I am not sure why you are so worried about the list of "Honorary
Academic Advisors". Such lists are usually fairly pro forma. One
doesn't expect to be consulted very often, if at all.

Anyway, I am fairly certain that at least half the list is genuine
and see no reason to doubt the remainder. People usually get on lists
of this kind because they were someone's doctoral examiner or
similar. In this case, a number are obvious connexions of Pathompong
as a former monk.

Hundius is not on the list you give us. Oskar von Hinueber does of
course provide a German connexion and has many links with Thailand.

Lance Cousins


>Just this month, Thailand's Mahidol University launched a small PhD
>programme in Buddhist studies.

[...]

#2283 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:50 pm 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

Thank you for the information.

As far as I know, many of the scholars on the list were either
at a meeting at Mahidol in the early planning stages and had
agreed to be dissertation advisors for future students if
needed. The Thai scholars live in Bangkok and surrounding and
so are close and available. Most of the foreign scholars have
worked with Thai students, spend time in Thailand, or live in
Thailand (except for Janet Gyatso). Most of the concrete
planning started back in 2004. They have a nice campus, good
staff, and are really putting a lot of resources into the
program to make it work. Who knows if it will?  There seems to
be student interest. We'll see. Mahidol is always trying to
build their library resources, so if anyone wants to donate
books, they would be most welcome.

There is already a viable program at Mahidol for Thai students
(everything in Thai medium including all Sanskrit and Pali
instruction) but it is run through another college, not the
International program. That has an excellent staff as well. A
few of my students will be studying there as visitors soon. I
am more familar with that program. Lots of good things going
on at Mahidol.

Thanks for the update. It is indeed encouraging.

Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:27:17 +0000
>From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Mahidol University's Buddhist
Studies Programme
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>   EM
>
>   It is very encouraging to see a new programme in
>   Pali studies -
>   desperately needed. Pathompong is very much to be
>   congratulated for
>   his organizational skills and enthusiasm in
>   gathering together such a
>   group. I do not know all of the staff involved, but
>   Justin Meiland
>   and Alex Wynne at least are very well capable of
>   running a programme
>   of this kind.

[...]
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
951-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

#2284 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:12 pm 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

Well, then, good news all around:

Except, perhaps, somebody should tell Hinuber that his name is being
used to advertise the programme!

Lance: yes, I agree, about half of the list seems legitimate or
reasonable --however, the pessimists among us might instead say that
the other half is not so!

With any such international programme in Thailand, I am in part
concerned that the foreign professors are "really there" at all.  It
is possible to fly them in for a lecture (and a beach holiday) for
just a short period in any given year, and then list them as staff,
etc.

In any case, I am sure it will be easy for Mahidol's programme to earn
my trust and respect, shall we say, once they have operated for more
than a full calendar month --or perhaps have a proud tradition of a
single year "under their belts".

I am indeed mortified to find that, at 11:30 PM last night, with my
head-cold, I managed to type "Hundius" instead of "Hinuber" --a pure
error, confusing two German professors, both of whose work is indeed
important reading for me (past and present).

Hundius is the leading figure in his field (Lanna & Lao literature),
as Hinuber is the leading figure in his own --but aside from this and
the letter "H" at the start of their names, they have nothing in
common.

For my next trick: the difference between "Austroasiatic" and "Austronesian"!

Yes, it was Hinuber whose e-mail Pathompong was trying to acquire, etc.

E.M.

#2285 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:32 pm 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

Firstly, so that this is situated in the relentless charm of semi-urban Yunnan:

In the time that elapsed since my last e-mail to the group, I rode my
bicycle to the market.  Having purchased fresh bread, hot from the
tandoor-oven of the local Uighur muslim minority (@ 2 kway each), I
proceeded to the vegetable market, where I did my best to use the
local system of hand-signals to barter my purchase of a set of mangoes
--likely imported from Thailand.  (e.g., one thumb and the smallest
finger indicates "6 kway")

I then purchased Han-Chinese bread as well, presenting "my
credentials" (viz., holding up a card with the Chinese phrase "I am
devoutly vegetarian" written on it, allowing them to read it while I
attempt to pronounce it at the same time) --allowing myself to be
"flirted" with, despite my near-zero comprehension of the language, by
offering a raised eyebrow and a comical frown as a riposte to the
salesgirls' well-honed "come on" lines.  (Note: I've been there with a
translator before, so this is not purely my middle-aged imagination
run wild; they don't have much else to do but flirt with those of us
in the bread queue).

And now, I write this while drinking genuine, locally grown Yunnan-ese
coffee --the taste of which is similar to chewing on a paper napkin.

And now, to offer a few comments that might be more useful than merely
grovelling (and beating myself on the head with a slipper) for mixing
up Hundius and Hinuber so late last night (and with a bad head-cold!
my familiar excuse!):

A large part of my concern with this kind of "staff listing" comes
from my own experience in Canadian academia, rather than in Thailand.

The list has already received a few very long reports with praise for
a few Thai institutions that I have visited --and that seemed to be
doing good and important work in a transparent and laudable way.

In Canada, however, the university I attended really did defraud its
students so far as offering courses in Buddhism, Sanskrit, etc.
--something that I published a carefully-worded article on at the
time, sparking a series of tense meetings within that academic
establishment.  They were rather more pleased when my activism proved
to stir up a huge lump sum of money from the local Chinese community:
with my article in hand, Chris Ng "beat the drum" for donations, and
so my critique came with a promise of new funding, as the strange
circumstances dictated.

There are two sides to this issue:

On the one hand, it is rather shameful when (e.g.) an institution like
Nalanda College (an independent "school" that is located on U. of
Toronto campus, but not formally affiliated with the latter) attempts
to list the likes of A.K. Warder among its staff.  When I asked Warder
about this directly, he was astonished, and at first (I infer) thought
that I was lying to him when I said that it was advertised that he was
more-or-less teaching Pali at "Nalanda" for a small fee (obviously, I
was interested in becoming his student, were it possible to do so).
It became clear, although with some indecipherable sputtering
prolonging the question, that he was absolutely not teaching, not
lecturing, and not co-operating with Nalanda College in any way
whatsoever --but that they were listing his name just about everywhere
that they could, on the basis of some past conversation they'd had
with him.

At some point thereafter, they ceased to do this --perhaps Warder
contacted them to request his name be removed from such lists?  I
don't know.  In any case, Warder's reputation will hardly suffer from
this dubious listing.

Now, on the other hand, there is the real harm that such "misleading
boasts" made by academic institutions entails for the students --many
of whom will spend tens of thousands of dollars, and several years of
their lives, based on such simple claims made on paper.

When I was there, the U. of Toronto was listing many courses related
to Buddhism that simply did not exist; they would appear "on paper"
right up to the moment the term started, and then it would be
announced that they were not on offer after all.  The reality was that
the three key professors were all "on the edge of retirement", and the
departments involved had, in a sense, never recovered from the
dramatic implosion of the department that had formerly been led by
A.K. Warder, and that was so vitiated with controversy by J.M. Mason
(the latter is now more famous for his work on Freud and his books on
cats than his early career as a Sanskritist).

The fact that it was impossible for a student to actually take "intro
to Sanskrit" for a long period (during which time we students were
enrolling and paying our fees in response to the false promise that we
could take such a course) was a case in point --and an issue that had
ramifications for myself, personally.

A particularly pathetic instance, known to me, was a Palestinian
immigrant, whose family was Muslim, and who enrolled at UofT with a
then-passionate interest in studying Buddhism; she put down her money,
and committed four years of her life, based on the promise that there
was this robust programme of courses available to her, that would
allow her to develop a Buddhist studies specialization, or at least do
some reasonably profound reading in this genre.

What she ended up with was a degree in "Religious studies", almost all
of which was in the Judeo-Christian tradition, with just one course in
Buddhist philosophy to her name --everything else "on offer" proved to
be chimerical.  Indeed, as I have mentioned, the physical presence of
professors listed as staff can also prove to be chimerical.  This was
especially painful for her, given her cultural and family background,
I might say; but she'll never have another opportunity to study
Buddhism --and certainly never another opportunity to study Sanskrit,
etc.

This is not the only example known to me, and the article containing
the whole sad story of the collapse of UofT's Sanskrit/Buddhist
Studies department is still available on-line (although I still chafe
at certain changes to the wording that were made without my permission
... such as the use of the verb "rivals" ... grr...).

In any case, when I read such lists (even if they be "pro forma",
etc.) I do indeed rankle at the possibility of false listings.

One way or another, it will do no harm to the reputation of Hinuber if
he is listed (but, in fact, the professors do not even have his e-mail
address, as mentioned!) --but it will do real harm to certain of their
students if they enroll thinking they will be able to see Hinuber "in
the flesh", and this is not so.

For myself, I would need to investigate very carefully how many of
their professors actually live within walking distance of the campus
before I would enroll in such a thing.

And, as you all know, they would not accept me unless I passed the
9th-level monastic Pali exams anyway --so it is a moot point.

Back to my napkin-flavoured coffee.

E.M.

#2286 
From: robert kirkpatrick <rjkjp1@yahoo.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:53 pm 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

dear Eisel
   Thanks for the interesting story, (what is the attraction in Yunnan BTW)?
   I think nothing underhand is being attempted here.  As Lance has already
explained the luminaries are specifially said to be HONARARY. Students should
understand this means that those academics will not be part of the teaching
faculty.
   At the university I teach at in Pathumthani we are opening a new M.ED course
and have several prestigious advisors who are all non-faculty. Would love to
know how much they are paid...
   Robert

Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> wrote:
           Firstly, so that this is situated in the relentless charm of
semi-urban Yunnan:
[,,,]

#2287 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:40 pm 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

At 13 Nov 2007 20:32:49 -0600 Eisel Mazard wrote:
> And, as you all know, they would not accept me unless I passed the
> 9th-level monastic Pali exams anyway --so it is a moot point.

I don't know... sounds like asking a lot to compare a Thai degree to a UofT
degree... I imagine they would be shocked to hear of the sort of standards you
expect of this institution - professors actually teaching?  All of them?  If you
want a Ph.D, go to UofT (though McMaster has a better Rel. St programme).  If
you want to learn about Buddhism, find a good monastery, study Pali, Dhamma or
Abhidhamma, or just skip the study and meditate under a good teacher - they do
exist.

Two cents,

Yuttadhammo

#2288 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:07 am 
Subject: Re: Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme 

> Lots of good things going
> on at Mahidol.

Like their $250 tipitaka program which has a state-of-the-art anti-piracy
implimentation and an interface reminiscent of Windows 3.1?  I'm sorry, I'm
biased against Mahidol just for that project alone.

Probably this sounds good to a US Ph.D student looking to visit Thailand but,
honestly, considering the excellent array of monastic study available in
Thailand for free, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to study at a
for-profit institution in this case, unless a) they were Thai and wanted to
study English, or b) they were to incompetent or too time-pressed to learn Thai.
The degree itself must be rather useless in international circles, I should
think...

#2289 From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:41 am 
Subject: evam me sutam 

ta-participles are used as action nouns in the Pali canon. The gender is
invariably neuter as in Sanskrit (described by Panini in A III.3:114). There
are several examples of such action nouns in the canon. I have suggested
that the canonical phrase eva.m me stuta.m illustrates the use of suta.m as
an action noun in the sense: the following is what I hear (people saying).
This interpretation, I believe, is corroborated by A II 172: yo koci
di.t.tha.m bhaasati eva.m me di.t.than ti n?atthi tato doso, yo koci suta.m
bhaasati eva.m me sutan ti n?atthi tato doso, and so on (including muta.m,,
and vi.n.naata.m): whoever tells what he is seeing, explaining that what I
am seeing is as follows, is not to be blamed for that reason; whoever tells
what he is hearing, explaining that what I am hearing is as follows, is not
to be blamed for that reason, and so on.

I assume that we can safely extrapolate from instances like these. Cf. D I
143.

Ole Holten Pind

#2290 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:39 pm 
Subject: Dakkhi.nodaka 

There is an interesting compound in the Pali commentaries:
dakkhi.nodaka. I am wondering what would be the best translation of this
compound and what kind of compound it is.
The PED entry has* ?dakkhi.nodaka* water to wash in (orig. water of
dedication, consecrated water) J I.118; IV.370; DhA I.112; PvA 23.*''*
Although, the water seems indeed to be used for washing the right hand
and bowl before and after the meal, ?water to wash in? seems to be a
rather free translation.
Having checked some of the contexts in which it occurs, it seems to me
that it could be an inverted tappurisa compound meaning
''water-offering'' (or literally the ''offering of water,''). The
unusual inverted compound is probably why the PED adds: ?orig. water of
dedication, consecrated water.? I could not find a Sanskrit parallel in
the Monier Williams SED, but did not search very well.
However, perhaps not dakkhi.na, ?offering,? is intended, but dakkhi.na,
?right (side),? that is, ?water for washing the right (hand)? because
monks eat with their right hands and the contexts indicate that the
water is used for washing the hand and bowl before and after the meal.
In this way it is a normal dative tappurisa compound.

Any comments?

Regards,
Bh. Nyanatusita

#2291 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:40 pm 
Subject: Re: evam me sutam 

Dr. Pind,

   I have a "stupid question" that might be useful for others as well:

   What technical term is used for "action noun" by Panini?

   Is this category of word, perhaps, overlooked in the Pali tradition,
precisely because it is treated by Panini but not by Kacc., or not by
Buddhaghosa, etc.?

   [Viz., I am assuming Kacc does not have an equivalent category --in
part simply because he has so few technical terms whatsoever.  It is
certainly easy to regard all Pali participles as "just some
participle" without further differentiation.]

E.M.

#2292 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:24 am 
Subject: SV: evam me sutam 

E.M.

<  What technical term is used for "action noun" by Panini? >

The technical term is bhaava.h

   < Is this category of word, perhaps, overlooked in the Pali tradition,
precisely because it is treated by Panini but not by Kacc., or not by
Buddhaghosa, etc.? >

In the ct.s and the grammatical lit. bhaava is exclusively used in the sense
of verbal action, cf. the use of bhaava-napu.msaka to denote the adverb, and
its use to describe the absolute locative bhaavena bhaavalakkha.na, e.g. at
Sv p. 33.

   [Viz., I am assuming Kacc does not have an equivalent category --in part
simply because he has so few technical terms whatsoever.  It is certainly
easy to regard all Pali participles as "just some participle" without
further differentiation.]

Undoubtedly. It is interesting, however, that there are so many instances of
neuter ta-participles used as action nouns.

O.H.Pind

#2293 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:45 am 
Subject: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

I think the term is a kammadhaaraya "water as dakkhi.naa." This would fit
the context very well.

O.H.Pind


-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Nyanatusita
Sendt: 16. november 2007 01:40
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Dakkhi.nodaka

[...]

#2294 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:41 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

At 16 Nov 2007 09:45:29 +0100 Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> I think the term is a kammadhaaraya "water as dakkhi.naa." This would fit
> the context very well.
>
> O.H.Pind

The Thai translation is "water for daksi.naa", which would make it a catutthi
tappurisa.  The Thai dictionary gives this meaning: "water used to wash at the
time of giving gifts, in order to dedicate an extra portion of the merit to the
deceased."  Since the word dakkhi.na had become such a catch-all phrase
regarding gifts and dedication, it would make sense that dakkhi.nodaka be
ceremonially "for" or even "of" the gift giving instead of as a gift itself.  In
Thailand, it is still a custom in some places to offer such water to the monks
to pour themselves in order to dedicate merit for the donors and their
relatives.

Personally, I just assumed this name referred to cultural stigma (and health
concerns!) against using the left hand for eating (it being used to clean the
other end).

Yuttadhammo

#2295 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:54 pm 
Subject: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

You are right. However, I cannot see that it makes much difference in terms
of semantics to say that x is for y or x (which)is y (the kammadhaaraya
solution, which interprets one member of a compound as apposition to the
other). Clearly water is a dakkhi.naa in the traditional Indian sense: it is
placed in front (aggato) of the recipient as a ceremonial gift. I assume
that the word and the ceremony itself are derived from the brahmnaical
dak.si.naa ceremony, but, of course, in a different context.

O.H.Pind


<The Thai translation is "water for daksi.naa", which would make it a
catutthi tappurisa.  The Thai dictionary gives this meaning: "water used to
wash at the time of giving gifts, in order to dedicate an extra portion of
the merit to the deceased."  Since the word dakkhi.na had become such a
catch-all phrase regarding gifts and dedication, it would make sense that
dakkhi.nodaka be ceremonially "for" or even "of" the gift giving instead of
as a gift itself.  In Thailand, it is still a custom in some places to offer
such water to the monks to pour themselves in order to dedicate merit for
the donors and their relatives.

Personally, I just assumed this name referred to cultural stigma (and health
concerns!) against using the left hand for eating (it being used to clean
the other end)>

Yuttadhammo


#2296 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:02 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

At 16 Nov 2007 18:54:38 +0100 Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> You are right. However, I cannot see that it makes much difference in terms
> of semantics to say that x is for y or x (which)is y (the kammadhaaraya
> solution, which interprets one member of a compound as apposition to the
> other). Clearly water is a dakkhi.naa in the traditional Indian sense: it is
> placed in front (aggato) of the recipient as a ceremonial gift. I assume
> that the word and the ceremony itself are derived from the brahmnaical
> dak.si.naa ceremony, but, of course, in a different context.
>
> O.H.Pind

My feeling is that the water is not so much a gift as it is an instrument used
in the ritual of giving (viz. to dedicate merit), that is why I prefer the
tappurisa solution.  It makes a great semantic difference, in that case.

a) This water is given, therefore it is water as dakkhi.na

b) This water is for the giving (ceremony), therefore it is water for dakkhi.na

If I remember correctly, there is even an instance (in the DhpA?) where
Sariputta pours this water to dedicate merit on behalf of the donor.  In that
case, it is clearly not a gift to the monk, as it is meant to benefit the donor
(this is clear from the Thai practice).

Best Wishes,

Yuttadhammo

#2297 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:20 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

Thanks for the explanation. It is interesting that this word only occurs
in the Pali commentaries, not in the Pali Canon itself. In the Pali
Canon water does not seem to have been used as a ceremonial gift to
monks. Perhaps this shows the Brahmanical influence on the ancient
Sinhalese Buddhist tradition. Unlike Thailand, I am not aware of water
pouring ceremonies here in Sri Lanka except the one to dedicate merit to
deceased relatives. Water sprinkling with blessed water is used in
exorcisms, but monks are normally not involved with these.
At present Brahmanical influences seem to be stronger on ceremonies in
Thailand. Perhaps this is so because there are brahmin astrologers at
the court. For example, the water sprinkling ceremony during which monks
sprinkle paritta water over laypeople and the house with a whisk while
chanting ''Jayanto Bodhiya muule...''  is not done in Sri Lanka. I am
not an expert in the ritual field but it seems to me to be derived from
Brahmanical and other fertility rituals. I remember that a Brahmin in
the village in Bali where I was visiting as a layman was doing a water
sprinkling ceremony to bless the villagers in relation to the rice harvest.
It is also interesting that the dakkhi.nodaka is, as far as I can see,
the only compound where dakkhi.na as first member does not mean ''right
side.'' There are no food items such as ''dakkhi.na-bhatta'' or
''dakkhi.na-odana,'' etc.
Regards,
               Bh. Nyanatusita

Ole Holten Pind wrote:
>
> You are right. However, I cannot see that it makes much difference in
> terms
> of semantics to say that x is for y or x (which)is y (the kammadhaaraya
> solution, which interprets one member of a compound as apposition to the
> other). Clearly water is a dakkhi.naa in the traditional Indian sense:
> it is
> placed in front (aggato) of the recipient as a ceremonial gift. I assume
> that the word and the ceremony itself are derived from the brahmnaical
> dak.si.naa ceremony, but, of course, in a different context.
>
> O.H.Pind

[...]

#2298 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:25 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

Believe it or not, I read an English summary of a detailed study on
the origin and evolution of this ritual (sadly, not on the meaning of
the compound word itself) by a Lao scholar, back when I was working
inside the Lao government:

The conclusions of this Lao scholar (no name, no citation possible,
viz., not from myself) were that the ceremony of "discarding" this
/dakkhi.nodaka/ as performed in Sri Lanka is closer to the original,
and that the form now found in Thailand and Laos is a corruption
thereof.

In Sri Lanka, the pouring out of such water onto the ground (after it
has been "used" by the monks, to wash bowls, hands, etc., as they sit
to eat) is done with the intentional assertion of mental detachment to
the rewards of such generosity.  Some verse in Pali is associated with
this, but the point was to disavow the "egoism" of only giving to
monks with some specific expectation of reward --be it in this life or
the next.  This is an exercise in building up the "right intention" of
generosity, and there is no magical potency ascribed to the water
itself, nor to the earth it is poured into, etc.

(I should mention that I have never seen or heard of this ritual in
Sri Lanka, apart from the results of the research in question; but
this would be performed as laypeople exit the temple, after presenting
alms, etc., and might hardly be visible.)

The version of the ritual now performed in Laos and Thailand is
instead associated with the dedication of merit (most often similar to
asking a genie in a bottle for a favour) and there are various beliefs
in the magical agency of the water going into the ground, etc.

As I recall, we (in the Lao department of foreign language
publications) worked up some kind of public education article from
this, instructing the Lao laity that that: no, giving food to monks
and pouring out the water in this way would not assure that they win
the lottery.

Some of the senior monks complained of precisely this (e.g., angry
parishoners asking why they had not won the lottery, when this was
what they "asked for" when pouring out the water, etc.) --and this
apparently sparked the interest in researching the original meaning of
the ritual.

This ritual is unrelated to the many (MANY!) other uses of magical /
lustral water by the monks themselves in the Buddhism of modern,
northern Thailand & Laos.

Some of these involve dousing the layperson with magic water, while
they "gamble", drawing magical sticks out of a bucket, or playing
other fortune-telling games that involve some kind of Las-Vegas-style
apparatus.

A related anecdote: in a remote village in Laos, I once asked to
purchase sugar, but because of one of the local shibboleths, the young
woman interpreted "Nam Than" ( = sugar ) as "Nam Dhan".  The word
"Dhan" here is indeed the Pali word for generosity, as assimilated
into Lao (with natural religious overtones), and so she thought I was
making a kind of religious request that she present me with, "Waters
of generosity".

Perhaps especially confused because of my bald head, etc., she ran to
her father to ask for advice, and he sagely advised her to prepare a
bowl of water to show her generosity toward me.  Eventually, I did
indeed manage to buy a bag of sugar.

E.M.

#2299 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:31 am 
Subject: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

I have noticed that the ct.s in some instances gloss udaka as dakkhi.nodaka.
Libation ceremonies involving water (dakkhi.nodakapaata) in connection with
founding a vihaara is also glossed dakkhi.nodaka. It appears to occur in
connection with consecrating a siimaa as well. Here is a nice subject for a
PhD student.

Regards,
Ole Holten Pind

#2300 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:46 am 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka

_The Jaataka_ (Cowell, ed.) gives a citation in regards to the compound at vol.
1, p. 17:

"When a gift was made,the donor poured water over the hand of the donee.  The
gift that was here made by Jiivaka was the food bestowed on the Brotherhood, as
the Milindapanho explains (p. 118) in its version of this story."

I can find no such story in the Miln... perhaps it would shed some light on
this?

#2301 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:23 am 
Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

There are important Sanskrit sources that mention libation and pouring water
on a recipients right hand hands as confirmation of a gift or a promise. The
Sanskrit Srauta- and Gr.hayasuutras should be consulted for the implications
of udaka-puurva "preceded by water." udaka-daana "gift of water" was
presented in a ceremony to the manes.

Regards,
Ole Holten Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Noah Yuttadhammo
Sendt: 17. november 2007 11:46
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [palistudy] Dakkhi.nodaka

_The Jaataka_ (Cowell, ed.) gives a citation in regards to the compound at
vol. 1, p. 17:

"When a gift was made,the donor poured water over the hand of the donee.
The gift that was here made by Jiivaka was the food bestowed on the
Brotherhood, as the Milindapanho explains (p. 118) in its version of this
story."

I can find no such story in the Miln... perhaps it would shed some light on
this?

#2302
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:19 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,
I could only find one reference to Jiivika in the Milindapa~nhaa, but it
was not connected to this. However, pouring water to dedicate a gift is
an ancient custom in India. In the Uggasutta of the Anguttara Nikaya (AN
8:21), the anaagaamin householder Ugga gives away his eldest wife (as a
gift) to another man, ''having taken the senior wife's hand in the left
hand and the water pot in the right, I dedicated [her] to that man''
(vaamena  hatthena  pajaapati.m gahetvaa dakkhi.nena hatthena
bhingaara.m gahetvaa tassa purisassa  o.nojesi.m). I suppose that the
water would be poured over the the right hands of the couple, or at
least over the right hand of the groom. I am not familiar with current
marriage rituals in Sri Lanka, but according to colonial accounts
marriages were traditionally done by pouring water over the hands of the
couple. Water symbolizes cohesion and fertility.
Regards,
               Bh. Nyanatusita

Noah Yuttadhammo wrote:
>
> _The Jaataka_ (Cowell, ed.) gives a citation in regards to the
> compound at vol. 1, p. 17:
>
> "When a gift was made,the donor poured water over the hand of the
> donee. The gift that was here made by Jiivaka was the food bestowed on
> the Brotherhood, as the Milindapanho explains (p. 118) in its version
> of this story."
>
> I can find no such story in the Miln... perhaps it would shed some
> light on this?
>

#2303 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:42 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

At 18 Nov 2007 07:49:22 +0530 Nyanatusita wrote:
>
> Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,
> I could only find one reference to Jiivika in the Milindapa~nhaa, but it
> was not connected to this.

Bhante,

I think there is a confusion with the DhpA here, which indeed has the other
version of the story, but no such explanation of what the word dakkhi.na refers
to, afaics.

> I suppose that the
> water would be poured over the the right hands of the couple, or at
> least over the right hand of the groom. I am not familiar with current
> marriage rituals in Sri Lanka, but according to colonial accounts
> marriages were traditionally done by pouring water over the hands of the
> couple. Water symbolizes cohesion and fertility.

The DhpA (7.9) has another interesting custom:

Atha nesa.m katama"ngalaana.m dvinnampi ~naatakesu sannipatitesu
udakapaatiya.m hatthe otaaretvaa ma"ngalaani vatvaa kumaarikaaya vu.d.dhi.m
aaka"nkhamaanaa ~naatakaa ''tava ayyikaaya di.t.thadhamma.m passa, ayyikaa
viya cira.m jiiva, ammaati aaha.msu.

They lower the hands of the engaged into the bowl of water and recite
"blessings" (curses, as it turns out in this story).

If a parallel could be drawn here, it could be that the dakkhi.nodaka is truly
for placing the right hand in.  I'd rather find that story of Sariputta again,
where I sincerely remember him pouring water in dedication.

Yuttadhammo

#2304 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:48 am 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

Dear Yuttadhammo,

It seems to me from the contexts that the water is used for washing the
hand and bowl of the monks, not for drinking. Perhaps because of this
similarity of pouring the water over the hands for washing with the
ritualistic usage of pouring water for dedication, it is called
dakkhi.nodaka.
Our monastery helper told me today that the crucial part of the Kandyan
marriage ritual consists of thread (preferably being made of gold) being
wound around the right thumbs of the couple, after which water is poured
over the right hands.

Bh. Nyanatusita

Noah Yuttadhammo wrote:
>
> At 18 Nov 2007 07:49:22 +0530 Nyanatusita wrote:
> >
> > Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,
> > I could only find one reference to Jiivika in the Milindapa~nhaa,
> but it
> > was not connected to this.
>
> Bhante,
>
> I think there is a confusion with the DhpA here, which indeed has the
> other version of the story, but no such explanation of what the word
> dakkhi.na refers to, afaics.
>
{...]

#2305 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:03 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

At 19 Nov 2007 21:18:30 +0530 Nyanatusita wrote:
> Dear Yuttadhammo,
>
> It seems to me from the contexts that the water is used for washing the
> hand and bowl of the monks, not for drinking. Perhaps because of this
> similarity of pouring the water over the hands for washing with the
> ritualistic usage of pouring water for dedication, it is called
> dakkhi.nodaka.

Bhante,

I would prefer to think so as well, except in that case I would rather say that
dakkhi.na simply refers to the fact that in those times (even at present in some
parts of Thailand, and probably India) the right hand only was used for eating,
as the left hand was used for cleaning the other end.  This would be a good
reason as to why other ceremonies similarily preferred the right hand.

> Our monastery helper told me today that the crucial part of the Kandyan
> marriage ritual consists of thread (preferably being made of gold) being
> wound around the right thumbs of the couple, after which water is poured
> over the right hands.

My favourate marriage custom is in the Diigha (Agganna Sutta):

''Ye kho pana te, vaase.t.tha, tena samayena sattaa passanti methuna.m
dhamma.m pa.tisevante, a~n~ne pa.msu.m khipanti, a~n~ne se.t.thi.m
khipanti , a~n~ne gomaya.m khipanti : 'nassa asuci, nassa asuciiti. 'Katha~nhi
naama satto sattassa evaruupa.m karissatiiti! tadetarahipi **manussaa ekaccesu
janapadesu vadhuyaa nibbuyhamaanaaya a~n~ne pa.msu.m khipanti, a~n~ne
se.t.thi.m khipanti, a~n~ne gomaya.m khipanti.** Tadeva poraa.na.m
agga~n~na.m akkhara.m anusaranti, na tvevassa attha.m aajaananti.


In this case, the origin of the custom is made perfectly clear :)

Best Wishes,

Yuttadhammo

#2306 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:20 am 
Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

If dakkhi.na denotes the right (hand) the compound must be a majjhimalopa
cp.d. In any case, I still think that it is related to Sanskrit dak.si.naa.
The dakkhi.nodaka seems to be presented as a gift before a meal, sometimes
it is mentioned as a gift to the sangha or a vihaara in the same way as
robes. See also the use of dakkhi.neyya in the Pali Canon, for which there
are contemporary Sanskrit cognates like dak.si.nya, dak.si.niiya, usually
translated as worthy of the sacrificial fee. The Buddha is the
aggadakkhi.neyya. I think the question needs careful study of all
references.

With kind regards,
Ole Holten Pind

#2307 
From: Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:26 am 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Dakkhi.nodaka 

At 20 Nov 2007 11:20:23 +0100 Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> If dakkhi.na denotes the right (hand) the compound must be a majjhimalopa
> cp.d.

Agreed: dakkhi.nahatthadhovanodaka

dakkhi.nahatthadhovana is cha.t.thi tappurisa

dakkhi.nahattha is visesanapubbapada kammadhaaraya

Seems a stretch, I suppose...

Given that Thailand seems to be the only place the word is still used (it is in
my secular Thai-English dictionary), it might be worth to keep in mind they
clearly consider it to be for the gift (ie as an instrument in dedicating merit
of the gift of something else) rather than as a gift (or for the right hand). 
The Cowell citation I quoted supports this.  Then the question is, what is done
with the gift, if not to use in dedication?

Here's more quotes:

> Kammaaraje.t.thako dhiitara.m pakkositvaa tasmi~n~neva parisamajjhe
''aya.m kumaarikaa tuyhameva anucchavikaati *udaka.m paatetvaa adaasi*.
>
> JaatA 387

This shows clearly that pouring water is used to give away, at least, women...
as for more valuable things like food, I can't say.

> Puna tacchasuukaro te pucchi ''a~n~nepi vo amittaa atthiiti? suukaraa
''natthi, saamiiti vatvaa ''ta.m abhisi~ncitvaa raajaana.m karissaamaati
udaka.m pariyesantaa ja.tilassa paaniiyasa"nkha.m disvaa ta.m
dakkhi.naava.t.ta.m sa"nkharatana.m puuretvaa udaka.m abhiharitvaa
tacchasuukara.m udumbararukkhamuuleyeva abhisi~nci.msu. Abhisekaudaka.m
aasitta.m, suukarimevassa aggamahesi.m kari.msu. Tato pa.t.thaaya
udumbarabhaddapii.the nisiidaapetvaa dakkhi.naava.t.tasa"nkhena
abhisekakara.na.m pavatta.m.
>
> JatA 492

Here the word dakkhi.na is clearly used otherwise than as a gift, but in
connection with waterpouring, nonetheless.

> Eva~nca pana vatvaa siighameva kama.n.dalunaa udaka.m aaharitvaa udaka.m
hatthe paatetvaa piyabhariya.m braahma.nassa adaasi.
>
> JaatA 547

This one has a note in the Cowell Translation (v.6, p.293):

"As a symbol of donation, water was poured upon the right hand
(dakkhi.nodaka.m)."

So here one must wonder... water poured over the dakkhi.na hand as a symbol of
dakkhi.na ... which is it to be?  If we can indeed compare the giving away of
women to brahmins with the giving away of food to monks (how apt!), I don't
think there is doubt that gift water is for the giving, not as a gift.

> The dakkhi.nodaka seems to be presented as a gift before a meal, sometimes
> it is mentioned as a gift to the sangha or a vihaara in the same way as
> robes.

Can I impinge upon you for a citation?

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

#2308 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:10 am 
Subject: O.H. Pind's paper on Buddhaghosa uploaded 

Dear Members,

About a month ago, Ole sent me an old academic paper he had written in 1991
while giving some lectures in Japan. It was subsequently published in a
Japanese journal. Ole noticed some infelicities in the paper and asked me to
proof-read it for him before uploading. The paper has now been proof-read
(twice), revised, and uploaded. You can download it from the files section
at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/files/ (in the O.H. Pind folder)

You will need to login in with a Yahoo username and password. Alternatively,
you can download it directly by clicking on this link:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/Buddhaghosa-works.rtf (54 KB)

The title of the paper is: Buddhaghosa---His Works and Scholarly Background.
Here's an excerpt describing what the paper is about:

"In the following, I shall deal with the problems of authorship of the works
that go under Buddhaghosa's name, and the question of the origin of
Buddhaghosa's a.t.thakathaas. I shall also present an example of his
grammatical analyses of the Paali. These analyses are extremely interesting
in that they serve to underline a fact which is as remarkable as it is true,
namely, that canonical Paali in many respects stands closer to the Sanskrit
idiom which Paa.nini's grammar presupposes-the Paa.ninian bhaa?aa-than
post-Paa.nini Sanskrit literature. Finally, I shall give a surprising
example of the scope of Buddhaghosa's scholarly orientation. Dealing with
music and the nature of the Indian scale, he quotes a Paali verse which
clearly he must have translated from Sanskrit into Paali because we find an
almost identical Sanskrit version in the Pa~ncatantra. The verse apparently
stems from Giitaala"nkaara attributed to Bharata."

The paper is in unicode and uses the Gandhari Unicode font but you can
change it to another compatible font if desired. Please feel free to comment
on or ask questions about the paper at anytime, now or later.

Best wishes,
Jim

#2309
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:30 am 
Subject: Dakkhi.nodaka

Just to follow up on the discussion of the compound dakkhi.nodaka, here is, I
think, a defining passage that should dispel some of the uncertainty as to what
the water was used for:

"... buddhappamukhassa bhikkhusa"nghassa daana.m datvaa tathaagatassa
dakkhi.nodaka.m adaasi. Satthu hatthe dakkhi.nodakapati.t.thaanena
saddhi.myeva taavati.msadevaloke sabbadisaasu dvaadasayojaniko uddha.m
yojanasatubbedho sattaratanamayo naariiga.nasampanno dibbapaasaado uggacchi."

DhpA 16.9

I think it is hard to support the idea that here the water is a gift, either to
the tathaagata or otherwise.  It seems to be a symbolic affirmation of the gift.
See, for instance:

"... amba.takavana.m nama attano uyyana.m sa"ngharama.m kattukamo therassa
hatthe udaka.m patetva niyyadesi."

DhpA 5.14

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

#2310
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:54 am 
Subject: John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit)

 > Dear group, In recent days I have a couple of
> times
> > found iyaat and such forms, which I would take to be
> > optative in form, used with what seems to have to be a
> > simple preterite meaning, "he went", and so on. Is
> > this a recognized possibility in the Mahabharata's
> > Sanskrit?
>
> This is an old favourite -- I first bumped into it at 2.67.5, 2.67.15,
> where the editor Edgerton flags it and refers to a
> JAOS article by himself that (if I remember correctly) points to
> comparable usages in Buddhist Sanskrit. More recently, Oberlies has a
> two-page list of optatives being used with preterite sense (and a
> long footnote full of references); whet he doesn't say, but stands out on
> the printed page, is that iyAt outweighs all other forms many times
> over. Most of the other examples are one-offs, and I dare say some
> could be interpreted in other ways (haven't checked). Clearly iyAt has in
> some way got "crossed" with the normat imperfect form ayAt (from
> yA-), though why this should have happened I have no idea.
>
> John Smith

#2311
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 10:19 am 
Subject: SV: John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit) 

The idea that optatives are used with a preterite meaning would seem to turn
the semantics of verbal usage upside down. How could an optative
structurally suddenly become preterite? I doubt that there is an easy
solution to the problem, but I would suggest to look at the phonological
possibilities. Perhaps the string ayA- was no longer productive, and
speakers raised /a/ to /i/ under the influence of /y/. Anyway, the string
/ay/ is hardly ever met with as far as I can see. This should be taken into
consideration.

Regards
Ole Holten Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 01 December 2007 07:55
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit)

> > Dear group, In recent days I have a couple of times
> > found iyaat and such forms, which I would take to be
> > optative in form, used with what seems to have to be a
> > simple preterite meaning, "he went", and so on. Is
> > this a recognized possibility in the Mahabharata's Sanskrit?
>
> This is an old favourite -- I first bumped into it at 2.67.5, 2.67.15,
> where the editor Edgerton flags it and refers to a JAOS article by
> himself that (if I remember correctly) points to comparable usages in
> Buddhist Sanskrit. More recently, Oberlies has a two-page list of
> optatives being used with preterite sense (and a long footnote full of
> references); whet he doesn't say, but stands out on the printed page,
> is that iyAt outweighs all other forms many times over. Most of the
> other examples are one-offs, and I dare say some could be interpreted
> in other ways (haven't checked). Clearly iyAt has in some way got
> "crossed" with the normat imperfect form ayAt (from yA-), though why
> this should have happened I have no idea.
>
> John Smith

#2312
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:19 am 
Subject: John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit) 

[Forwarded from Dr. Philip Ernest]

[...] I don't think this is  question of the
optative becoming anything.  It's just that some of
the optative forms of the verb i closely enough
resembled those of the imperfect another common verb,
yaa, and thus came to be picked by the poets when they
needed a preterite form.  From my limited point of
view, there isn't an ay string here, but the verb i
taking the optative ending yaat and so on, and the
verb yaa in its imperfect form, ayaat.  But my view
the naive view of a mere reader of Sanskrit with only
the most practical and rudimentary sense of the theory
of grammar, so Pind may probably be talking beyond my
earshot.  That the forms in question are not optative
in meaning seems quite necessary in the context of
their passages.  I am guessing that Pind is a senior
expert in Indian linguistics.

[...]

#2313
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:15 am 
Subject: SV: John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit) 

The idea that iyaat is an optative used as impf. is absurd, although
respected indologists are seen to think so. The next question is how do we
explain this form as the reading iyaat would seem to be a regular opt. of i.
I think like Philip Ernest that the form is imp. of yaa. This, in fact, is
the only possible solution. The question is why iyaat and not ayaat. To my
mind the solution is not a matter of simple confusion because the writers
could have picked the impf. of i which is ait. So why iyaat instead of
ayaat.  My suggestion is to look at the ay- iy- opposition as conditioned by
the string ay of ayaat because in MI a is generally raised to e before a. In
short, I think that there might be a solution to the problem by addressing
it as a problem of phonetics. That?s basically all I wanted to say.

Ole Holten Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 05 December 2007 09:19
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit)

[Forwarded from Dr. Philip Ernest]

[...] I don't think this is  question of the optative becoming anything.
It's just that some of the optative forms of the verb i closely enough
resembled those of the imperfect another common verb, yaa, and thus came to
be picked by the poets when they needed a preterite form.  From my limited
point of view, there isn't an ay string here, but the verb i taking the
optative ending yaat and so on, and the verb yaa in its imperfect form,
ayaat.  But my view the naive view of a mere reader of Sanskrit with only
the most practical and rudimentary sense of the theory of grammar, so Pind
may probably be talking beyond my earshot.  That the forms in question are
not optative in meaning seems quite necessary in the context of their
passages.  I am guessing that Pind is a senior expert in Indian linguistics.

[...]

#2314
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <ohpind@post.cybercity.dk> 
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:38 am 
Subject: SV: John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit) 

I have noticed a typo. It is herewith corrected
OHP

   _____

Fra: Ole Holten Pind [mailto:ohpind@post.cybercity.dk]
Sendt: 05 December 2007 12:16
Til: 'palistudy@yahoogroups.com'
Emne: SV: [palistudy] John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit)



The idea that iyaat is an optative used as impf. is absurd, although
respected indologists are seen to think so. The next question is how do we
explain this form as the reading iyaat would seem to be a regular opt. of i.
I think like Philip Ernest that the form is imp. of yaa. This, in fact, is
the only possible solution. The question is why iyaat and not ayaat. To my
mind the solution is not a matter of simple confusion because the writers
could have picked the impf. of i which is ait. So why iyaat instead of
ayaat.  My suggestion is to look at the ay- iy- opposition as conditioned by
the string ay of ayaat because in MI a is generally raised to e before  y .
In short, I think that there might be a solution to the problem by
addressing it as a problem of phonetics. That?s basically all I wanted to
say.

Ole Holten Pind



-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P? vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 05 December 2007 09:19
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit)

[Forwarded from Dr. Philip Ernest]

[...]

#2315
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:34 am 
Subject: Pind's article on Buddhaghosa 

I read the (recently uploaded) article on Buddhaghosa during one of
what will be be many 12-hour bus rides.

I have little to say, and so would mostly offer a note of appreciation.

This kind of article is, in a sense, the most difficult to construe,
as the argument relies on presenting evidence to the reader, making a
normative judgement (based on reading and understanding the Pali)
--and then inviting the reader to either accept or defy the
proposition, given the evidence.

This is only convincing for those who actually can (and do) read Pali.

Sadly, the thesis that Buddhaghosa's sources were primarily Pali (not
Sinhalese, by language) will be rejected or ignored by many --without
staring for very long at the words in italics.

For myself, I had already accepted/assumed this thesis to be true,
simply from a vague normative judgement based on reading the Pali, and
having an appreciation of the mutual-relations of various parts (or
"strata") of the literature (and, I must add, not reading very much of
it; I am certainly incapable of translating technical commentarial
passages, such as Pind's article focusses on; the way that grammar is
discussed by Buddhaghosa is utterly alien to the formulaic expression
of the Kaccayanavyakarana, etc.).

My own feeling about "the Buddhaghosa colophon" and related quotations
is that they may primarily indicate that the author(s) deleted or
removed Sinhalese language that had "crept into" (or "leaked into")
what the earlier sources relied upon --but that these were, so to
speak, in impure Pali prior to Buddhaghosa.

We should recall that, in our own era, when Anandajoti sat down to
prepare a simple edition of the Dhammapada, he found that all of the
Sinhalese sources had (inappropriate) Sinhalese spellings (including
pseudo-Sanskritizations) of Pali words.  His job was, in effect, to
delete or remove these, and find appropriate "pure Pali" spellings (in
a few cases I've noticed, he made the wrong choice, but still the
service is laudable and important).

Precisely because of the close proximity of Pali, Sinhalese Prakrit,
and other lingual influences that likely shot through pre-Buddhaghosa
commentarial sources, I must imagine that part of his job was as a
(lexical and grammatical) purifier of prior, secondary sources.

This general picture fits well with Dr. Pind's secondary thesis in the
same essay, that Buddhaghosa was a master of Paninian/Sanskrit
grammar.

In order to "purify" pali text (in that context) one would need to
know very well what was un-Pali --viz., what was Sanskritic, and
Prakritic.

In general, I think that K.R. Norman has demonstrated in numerable
instances that canonical Pali text was "scrubbed" to remove what
redactors (sometimes falsely) considered lingual impurities.

These impurities may also have hastened the disappearance of
pre-Buddhaghosa commentaries; and, of course, it is also simply
possible that they were of inferior quality (or inferior orthodoxy) to
B.G.'s output.

The assumption that, prior to B.G., there were many profound and
brilliant commentaries written in Sinhalese seems to simply reflect
the dogmatic assumption that everything ancient is superior to
everything new.

E.M.

#2316
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:25 pm 
Subject: Diodotus = Asoka? 

Diodotus = Asoka?

Below.


> Ranajit Pal, Non-Jonesian Indology and Alexander.  New Delhi:  Minerva
> Press, 2002.  Pp. 254.  ISBN 81-7662-032-7.  GBP 21,50.
>
> Reviewed by Monique Cardell, Universite/ Aix-Marseille I
> (mlcardell@excite.com)
> Word count:  1790 words
> -------------------------------
> To read a print-formatted version of this review, see
> http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2007/2007-12-39.html
> -------------------------------
>
> There is a dearth of new ideas in Alexander studies, and Ranajit Pal
> proposes to fill the gap with data from the Pali and Sanskrit texts.
> This is the most stimulating recent work on Indo-Iran and Alexander and
> not only challenges the prevailing linear perceptions but also offers
> new solutions. Pal sees Alexander from an eastern perspective and his
> method is not a cut-and-paste one. His canvas is wide -- in fact there
> is so much that only a brief outline of the major points can be given
> here. To start with, the term 'Non-Jonesian' is a new coinage with
> radical overtones. This invites the reader and the scholar to
> reconsider the geography of India as it is so closely linked to
> history.
>
> During the troubled days of the French revolution, Sir William Jones
> startled the world by his so-called discovery of Palibothra, described
> by Megasthenes. Jones equated Palibothra to Patna in Eastern India.
> This hypothesis, together with the identification of Sandrocottus of
> the classical writers with Chandragupta of the Indian texts,
> constitutes the very basis of Indology and also has a bearing on world
> history. According to Pal this 'discovery' has no archaeological basis
> and is the fountain-head of discrepancies in Indology, as pointed out
> by scholars like R. S. Tripathi, A. L. Basham, D. D. Kosambi and most
> notably B. M. Barua.[[1]] While most historians mention the
> inconsistencies yet continue with them,[[2]] Pal advocates scrapping
> the mammoth Jonesian edifice altogether. If Moeris was the same as
> Chandragupta Maurya and Orontobates, as Pal suggests, the history of
> Alexander in Indo-Iran has to be rewritten.
>
> Pal's central thesis is geographical. For him, the fact that Alexander
> celebrated his victory at Kohnouj in southeast Iran clearly proves that
> Kohnouj was Palibothra. Jones' idea has been accepted using Chinese
> texts but according to Pal these are not valid sources as they were
> written a thousand years later. Not a single archeological relic
> corroborates Jones' idea. Yet the standard works on Mauryan history
> remain silent on the fact that no relic of any Nanda or Maurya King,
> including Asoka, is known from Patna.[[3]]
>
> Pal starts the book with the assertion that Kahnuj (or Kohnouj) where
> Alexander celebrated his victory was the chief city of the Indians,
> Palibothra. He points out that Vincent Smith held that Kanauj in
> Eastern India is not an ancient city. Moreover he writes that Moeris
> was Chandragupta Maurya and Pattala could have been another Mauryan
> capital. This agrees with the reports of Plutarch and Appian that
> Androcottus, king of the Indians, dwelt near the Indus. Another bold
> suggestion is that the highly respected Indian sage Calanus (Sphines,
> according to Plutarch) was in fact Aspines or Asvaghosa. 'Asva' in
> Sanskrit means 'horse', and Calanus was specially known for his horse
> which is mentioned in the sources. There were probably many Asvaghosas,
> but Pal points to Gotama's biographer who was also a philosopher and a
> playwright. According to him Asvaghosa's association with Alexander
> indicates that the latter was not quite the brute painted by E. Badian
> and P. Green. Nothing engages Alexander scholars more than the question
> whether Alexander did in fact speak about the Brotherhood of Man. Pal
> holds that he did and criticizes E. Badian for ignoring the Sanskrit
> and Pali accounts and confusing 'truth' with the Greco-Roman accounts.
>
> Of all the tantalizing assertions in the book, the most mind-boggling
> is that Diodotus I, well-known for his superb coins, was the great
> Asoka. This far-reaching idea was first articulated at the All-India
> Oriental Conference at Pune in 1993.[[4]] Pal writes that the bilingual
> Kandahar Edict shows Asoka as the master of Arachosia and that the
> coins point to Diodotus as the ruler. He boldly states that the names
> Diodotus and Devanam (piya) are synonymous (p. 74). Significantly,
> while Diodotus has only coins but no inscriptions, his contemporary
> Asoka has many inscriptions but no coins, which shows that they
> complement each other.[[5]] Asoka never refers to his neighbor Diodotus
> because he was Diodotus himself. Both were fierce warriors in their
> youth but later became saviors, <greek>SWTH/R</greek>. Tarn wrote that
> most of the Bactrian Greeks became Buddhists. Pal holds that this was
> because of Alexander and Diodotus, due to whom momentous events took
> place in the Orient that altered human destiny. It was here that
> Hellenistic culture and religion were born.[[6]]
>
> In the second chapter Pal explores the motives behind Alexander's most
> disastrous campaign, the Gedrosian march, and his final victory
> celebrations at Kohnouj, which he identifies as Palibothra. The
> expedition was a near-disaster and Alexander himself narrowly escaped
> death. As there were safer routes, most writers have ascribed the
> campaign to the king's growing megalomania bordering on insanity and
> his desire to surpass Dionysius and Semiramis. Pal discards all this as
> hearsay and holds that Alexander and Nearchus were in fact pursuing a
> dangerous military objective -- to defeat the mighty Prasii. His
> argument that Moeris was in fact Chandragupta Maurya of Prasii (p. 90)
> appears to be sound. Both were active in Bactria; their chronologies
> match exactly; and 'Sashi' and 'Chandra' are the words for the 'moon'
> in Sanskrit. Pal laments that this was suggested by H. C. Seth but he
> was shouted down. The identification of Moeris as Chandragupta
> radically alters the history of Alexander.
>
> On this campaign, the navy, commanded by Nearchus, is usually said to
> have been engaged in a reconnaissance mission. The army, led by
> Alexander himself, moved in tandem, and its task, supposedly, was to
> ensure the safety of the fleet. Pal disagrees and writes that the
> reverse was true. According to him the Gedrosian voyage was a
> two-pronged military initiative. The army was engaged in a crucial
> battle against the Prasii and its allies and, apart from fact finding,
> the navy was carrying horses, troops and provisions to support the
> army. Pal provides support for Justin's statement that Alexander had
> defeated the Prasii at Palibothra (p. 91) although this is not
> mentioned by Arrian, Plutarch or Curtius. This is a very drastic
> reassessment of Alexander's motives and contradicts the imputations of
> scholars like E. Badian and P. Green on Alexander's character. When
> Alexander reached Pattala, Moeris and the populace had fled. Unaware of
> the true background, Badian ascribed this to Alexander's unmitigated
> brutality and compared him with Chenghis Khan. Pal, however, considers
> this claim to be unwarranted. As the leader of the army, Alexander can
> hardly be blamed for arranging provisions for it and had probably
> imposed a grain levy which made the people flee. There is clear
> evidence of a plot to deny his army the provisions he had so carefully
> planned. The four-month stock at Pattala somehow vanished and his men
> became so short of food that the guards themselves broke the royal seal
> and distributed the provisions. According to Pal this was the handiwork
> of traitors in Alexander's own camp, including Bagoas the younger, who
> was a spy of Moeris or Sashigupta. After returning to Susa, Alexander
> started punishing the guilty with utmost severity. Again, while E.
> Badian squarely reproached Alexander for excesses, Pal blames the
> Harvard professor for badly misjudging the scenario (p. 103).
>
> Pal's assertion that the Mudrarakshasa, an ancient Sanskrit drama of
> royal intrigue, is relevant to Alexander's history is very significant.
> He writes that the drama, which belongs to world literature, has been
> badly misinterpreted due to Jonesian delusions. He points out that the
> locale of the play is the North-West, not Patna. The Sanskrit scholar
> A. B. Keith dated the drama to the 9th century AD, but his proposal has
> been doubted. According to Pal, the drama has a core that is very
> ancient. The main stratagem of the drama is the theft of a signet-ring,
> which, according to him, is linked to the mysterious manner in which
> Perdikkas produced Alexander's signet-ring. Crashing gates, poisoning
> cups, poison-maidens and forged letters feature prominently in the
> drama, and the same devices also appear in Alexander's history. Pal
> writes that Bhagurayana of the drama was Bagoas the younger (p. 99). If
> Pal's idea that Diodotus of Erythrae, the mysterious editor of
> Alexander's diary, was Chandragupta is indeed true, then there is ample
> ground to suspect that Alexander was poisoned. In many manuscripts
> Chandragupta is not mentioned, but his place is taken by Rantivarma.
>>From this Pal concludes that Rantivarma was another name of
> Chandragupta and identifies him with Orontobates, the Carian satrap who
> fought against Alexander. Another striking discovery of Pal appears to
> be the identification of Andragoras as Chandragupta. This is quite
> plausible as the coins of Andragoras are dated to the fourth-century BC
> by many scholar, and both Plutarch and Appian use a similar name,
> Androcottus, for Chandragupta. Pal holds that the Gedrosian expedition
> was partly successful and ends the chapter with generous praise for
> Alexander (p. 106).
>
> Pal's work is strongly influenced by the  approach of D. D. Kosambi and
> is also a continuation of the ideas of Dr. Spooner and the great
> Buddhist scholar B. M. Barua.[[7]] Pal suggests a relocation of
> Palibothra in the North-West which is widely considered to be the seat
> of ancient Indian civilization. However, even if one agrees with Pal
> that Palibothra was not Patna, the real Palibothra may still be another
> nearby location. Only new finds of relics of the Nandas, Chandragupta
> or Asoka in the North-West can finally settle the true location of
> Palibothra.
>
> This is an exciting work which puts in another perspective Alexander's
> expedition, his goals, his knowledge of the people he was conquering,
> and the space where he was evolving. It sheds a new light on him and
> his supposed cruelty or whims. The text also highlights how Indology
> could help in the study of the history of the Hellenistic period.
> However, the absence of an index is an irritant. Also, credit for the
> pictures and maps is not given. A bibliography would have greatly
> enhanced the value of the book. Finally, for Western readers whose
> familiarity with the Indian texts is inadequate, a prosopography or an
> index of kings and generals named differently in the Graeco-Latin and
> in the Indian sources would have been very useful. Although the maps in
> the book are illuminating, a more comprehensive map of Indo-Iran is
> lacking. The narrative is at times uneven, which is probably not
> unexpected given the broad scope of the work.
>
> Hopefully, with the possible shrinking of borders in the subcontinent
> and the emergence of a South Asian Association for Regional
> Cooperation, as envisioned by thinkers like the Nobel Laureate Mohammed
> Yunus, Pal's ideas may find greater acceptance. Pal ends the preface of
> the book with a poignant note, "The author fervently hopes that the
> book may not only throw new light on the lost Brotherhood of Man but
> also contribute towards an eventual redemption."
>
> ------------------
> Notes:
>
>
> 1.   Doubts about the basis of Indology have also been expressed by G.
> Fussman, Southern Bactria & Northern India before Islam
> (http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Archaeology/Greater-Iran/southern_bactria.htm).
> See also, I. Mabbett, 'Dhanyakataka', in South Asia 16.2 (1993), p. 21.
>
> 2.   For example, R. Thapar, a staunch supporter of British Indology,
> wonders why there are no edicts of Asoka at Patna which is alleged to
> be his capital. R. Thapar, Ashoka and the Decline of the Mauryas
> (Oxford, 1961), p. 230.
>
> 3.   Pal notes that the Cambridge archaeologist D. K. Chakrabarti in
> The Archaeology of Early Historic South Asia edited by F. R. Allchin
> (Cambridge, 1995) p. 295 refers to many 2nd century B.C. texts but does
> not explain why there are none belonging to Chandragupta. In contrast,
> the veteran archaeologist A. Ghosh (The City in Early Historical India
> Simla, 1972, p.15) warned that 'The facts about Pataliputra are known
> mainly from texts.'
>
> 4.   Studies by F.L. Holt (Thundering Zeus, Hellenistic Culture and
> Society, Berkeley, 1999; Alexander the Great and Bactria, Leiden 1988)
> and others do not address the problem of the absence of inscriptions or
> other material evidence. Similar deficiencies characterize the studies
> on the Aramaic inscriptions from Bactria by S. Shaked and others. (See
> for example, S. Shaked, Three Aramaic Seals, Royal Asiatic Society of
> Great Britain and Ireland, London, 1986.) Even the great Sir W. W. Tarn
> was puzzled by the wide scattering of Diodotus' coins. (W.W. Tarn, The
> Greeks in Bactria and India, 3rd edition, Chicago 1997, p. 216).
>
> 5.   H. P. Ray's satisfaction with Asoka's coins is bizarre: Ancient
> India (N. Delhi, 2001), p. 55.
>
> 6.   Alexander gave a call for homonoia that was followed up by Asoka
> with great zeal. If the present reviewer has understood the text
> correctly, Pal's Diodotus was some kind of a Parsi who later adopted
> Buddhism. Pal ends the first chapter with "A Call to Archaeologists" in
> which he calls for more excavations in the Carman area. This was
> written in 2001 and in a way Pal anticipated the splendid Bronze Age
> finds at Jiroft by Madjidzadeh and others. In his later writings Pal
> has maintained that Jiroft or Djiroft was the early Kamboja of the
> Indian texts. His thesis has great depth and mainstream scholars have a
> duty to either accept or disprove it.
>
> 7.   D.B.Spooner, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1915, pp.
> 68-89, pp. 405-455; B. M. Barua, History of Pre-Buddhistic Indian
> Philosophy, passim.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> The BMCR website (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/) contains a complete
> and searchable archive of BMCR reviews since our first issue in 1990.
>
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#2317
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:55 am 
Subject: E.M. in Issan & China, general update 

Over the past three months, my own research has been impeded by
inclement circumstances, but that may now (finally) change.

I'm once again in the situation of a reluctant tourist, as my next
employer has requested that I remain in Thailand for a full month,
pending the Chinese government's processing of my next work visa.

I have been offered a position as a lecturer in English literature at
one of Kunming's larger universities (a student body of circa 20,000,
I was told).

One may interpret "lecturer in English literature" as "somewhat
glorified English teacher" (this is yet more desirable than my current
status as a "glorified refugee") --however, the position insinuates me
into the culture of the "Iron Rice Bowl" in the Chinese Public sector,
and this may serve for me to finish my current project in Pali studies
(translating Kaccayana's grammar, etc.).  Even the smallest and the
meanest of Yunnan's universities seems to me much better than the best
in Lao --and at least comparable to the best in Thailand.

I will have a small, furnished apartment (including a rice-cooker and
teapot, of course) where I will be able to commence serious work on
Pali again immediately --or, as soon as the paperwork is in order.

The salary is meagre, of course, and I will be responsible for
something on the order of 160 students (and thus, 160 report-cards,
etc.), but the option is impossible for me to refuse, as I am tired of
living without desk or desk-lamp --and even a library without a single
volume in English is preferable to having no library at all.

For those currently in Thailand, or about to pass through, I have
rented an apartment in Issan to wait out the month, and will perhaps
altnerate between the study of Pali and the various, unrelated
vernaculars (viz., Lao, Thai, and Chinese) that I seem compelled to
study to survive.

The appeal of perhaps picking up modern Chinese is tempered by the
fact that it is almost wholly useless for reading the Chinese
recension / transliteration of the Pali canon --and, vice-versa,
studying the characters to make use of that resource (for comparative
reading with the Pali) is of almost no utility in relation to modern
Chinese.

It is impossible for me to predict how durable this arrangement will
be, viz., living on the margins of Kunming's academia --partly because
I cannot anticipate how I will respond to the strange circumstances of
living (in isolation) on a Chinese campus.

If my own research and writing can thrive there, I will stay for
several years.  If not, I shall not.  However, I have now met
(personally) several scholars making real progress in their own
research, while enjoying the absurdities and agonies of Chinese
academia --and earning a modest income.  So, perhaps, I may also be
able to do the same.

The one "allegedly untranslated" and "allegedly Prakrit" inscription
in the Kunming Museum is also an appealing feature of living there
--at least in the short term.

It still seems to me that my research will inevitably lead me back to
Cambodia; the (foreshadowed/anticipated) reloaction of J. Filliozat to
Phnom Penh (at least seasonally, viz., during the winters) will make
this an even more interesting opportunity.

E.M.

#2318
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:29 am 
Subject: Pali by bicycle 

Likely my former note was a little too prosaic, and left out much that
would be of interest to list-members.  However, setting down a few
practical details seemed to me necessary.

I have just traveled down the Mekong from China, in a path shaped
rather like a fish-hook.

After the 12-hour bus trip from Kunming to the Mekong valley
(descending roughly 2,000 metres), a boat carried me from Jinghong to
the "golden triangle" (Chiang Saen, etc.).  This course covered the
sparsely inhabited area where I formerly worked in small villages,
and, indeed, where I formerly bathed in the Mekong; thus, the view
from the deck was indeed beautiful to the untrained observer, but was
painful for myself --as deforestation and the expansion of rubber
plantations continues to change the landscape.  I know too well what
I'm looking at to enjoy it.  There was scarcely a single tree thicker
than my arm --and, so too, very few older than myself in years.

I was entirely prepared to photograph the (beautiful and historically
significant) inscriptions in the Chiang Saen museum, but, sadly, on
the day I was there it was closed for a lunar festival.  This
happenstance did, obversely, fill the surrounding ruins with chanting
and other pageantry.

At Sukhothai, I particularly enjoyed one circular stone fragment, with
a comment on inter-dependent origination in Pallava script; of course,
it was very badly translated, thus, demonstrating that the pre-Thai
inhabitants of the area probably had more sincere interest in Buddhist
philosophy than the present curators (or, at least, the ancients
imported experts from Southern India --which is precisely what the
modern curators, too, should do!).

I then made the long trip East (around the Mekong, without entering
Laos) through Dan-Sai and Nakhon Thai --an area primarily famous for
its demon-worship masks and rituals, and that I have mentioned before
as the origin of one (vernacular) inscription of singular historical
importance.

I then proceeded east along the Mekong, where, in a small town, I was
mistaken for ethnic Lao for the first (and likely last) time in my
life, after a few unusually fluent turns of phrase.  The woman peered
at me carefully, looking around the edges of my eyes, and asked,
"You're a Lao person of some kind, aren't you?" --viz., perhaps
suggesting that I was one of the tribal, ethnic minorities.

More commonly, I was asked if I had been a member of the French
"ancien regime" --on account of how well I spoke the Lao language
(viz., on a very limited range of topics, but practical matters such
as bus routes being among them).

That area of Thailand has, in fact, become more remote, due to
increases in the price of gas, and the reduction (and elimination) of
a few bus routes over the past two years.

In the course of this journey, I must comment that I did not see
anything that I could honestly call poverty, although I have an eye
out for it at all times.  Aside from the drug addicts, the monotony of
abundance was eerie (and, of course, a stark contrast from the areas
of Laos that were ever a short distance away from each of these parts
of Thailand).

My months of preparation, via the Australian consulate to Laos,
finally came to fruition with a very brief crossing of the border, to
reclaim my bicycle and the contents of my Vientiane bank-account.

I was indeed in Nong Khai for the latest Thai plebiscite (in place of
a revolution).  I took a Lao friend to view the ballot-boxes, and
pointed out that while the difference from the Lao equivalent was
subtle, if one looked closely it could in fact be seen that in
Thailand there is more than one political party on the ballot.  Thus,
the people of Thailand would be forced to sleep with some uncertainty
as to which party might be in power the next day; whereas in Laos, we
are relieved of such uncertainty.

My current "involuntary vacation" in Thailand came about unexpectedly,
and thus I do not have the right books with me to make strides on
Kaccayana in the month ahead.

Today, I rode my bicycle 40 km in a round-trip to an historic site of
some interest: like everything in Issan, it has been subject to "too
much restoration, not enough excavation".

Evidently, the earliest bricks on the site are either Khmer or
Khmer-esque laterite clay, with what appeared to be one Dvaravati
boundary stone, recently smashed to pieces by an ill-thought-through
attempt to fell a tree, and then re-assembled with some bricks and
mortar (the felled tree was still visible at the time of writing, and
the crack looked fresh).

Likely, that Dvaravati stone was never beautiful or intact enough to
merit removal to the museum in Khon Kaen.  However, it still deserves
better than to have construction debris leaning against it, and a tree
felled atop it, etc.  I honestly don't even know if the stone was a
recreation --it was so plain that it had not occurred to me until this
moment that someone would take the trouble to recreate a "typical"
boundary stone of this kind, and then be so negligent as to destroy it
in this fashion, but I suppose this is possible (in Thailand).

A 16th century Theravada temple was later built on the same site, when
what was south of the Mekong was still in the orbit of Vientiane, and
new stucco was put about the place after the Stupa was destroyed by
"the rain" in the 1970s.

This is not the first Issan temple (that I have mentioned) to be
suspiciously destroyed by precipitation, at a time when large
quantities of American steel were precipitating in the course of what
Nixon insisted on referring to as "the third world war".  (I have
previously mentioned That Phanom, situated elsewhere along the Mekong,
and officially subject to the same fate)

Although neither the Lan Xang nor the earlier inhabitants of the site
were likely to have buried lengthy stone-inscribed texts of historical
or philosophic value, I nevertheless lament that nobody has dug a
metre down across the site, to reveal whatever's there.  At That
Phanom, the "excavation" caused by the collapse of the tower revealed
some pre-Buddhist cult stones --none of them inscribed.

I had pause to reflect today, on the occasion of meeting a resolutely
optimistic Mahayanist (who resolutely lectured me), as to just how
truly hopeless the entire situation is, along the entire course of the
Mekong, for Pali scholarship of any kind.

In Yunnan, wherever there is a gap between two buildings, someone will
put a plastic tarp over it, hang a light-bulb, and turn the alleyway
into a shop of some kind --a tailor's shop, most likely.  Nowhere did
I see even such an opportunity for Pali scholarship as one such alley
might provide --and I have wandered a good part of the world's surface
looking.

The opening of a government-sanctioned, turnstile-defined, Theravada
wonderland in Xipxongpanna (Southern Yunnan) was another cause for
such reflection; a colleague was among those admitted to the hall
(largely full of invited journalists) where an international chorus of
108 Theravada monks (none Sinhalese, I note) chanted something in
Pali, to sanctify yet another ornament to worldly authority.

An Englishman (with no scholarly interest) who was also present at the
temple, but stood outside the hall, commented to me very sincerely,
"What we are now seeing in Yunnan is the death of Buddhism"; it is
very much to his credit that he understood enough of what was going on
around him to be depressed by it.  I proposed to him that, "the second
death of Buddhism" might be more appropriate.

My former message mentioned that my assumptions still tend toward
Cambodia in the long term; it is an astounding fact that I feel
relatively optimistic about the lot of a self-styled scholar in Phnom
Penh, where Pali studies are indeed _ex nihilio_, and manuscript
research is literally "from the ashes" --yet perhaps it is precisely
because the Cambodians cannot delude themselves as to how dire the
situation is, that it is possible for me to be relatively optimistic
about the present and future of scholarship in such an evidently
hopeless place.

E.M.

#2319
From: Ngawang Dorje <rahula_80@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:55 am 
Subject: Kathavatthupali 19.5 

Hi,

   Could someone provide a translation of Kath&#257;vatthup&#257;&#7735;i, 19.
Ek&#363;nav&#299;satimavaggo, (190) 5. Tathat&#257;kath&#257;

   Thanks a lot,
   Rahula

   19. Ek&#363;nav&#299;satimavaggo
   (190) 5. Tathat&#257;kath&#257;

   841. Sabbadhamm&#257;na&#7747; tathat&#257; asa&#7749;khat&#257;ti?
&#256;mant&#257;. Nibb&#257;na&#7747;?pe? amatanti? Na heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe?
sabbadhamm&#257;na&#7747; tathat&#257; asa&#7749;khat&#257;, nibb&#257;na&#7747;
asa&#7749;khatanti ? &#256;mant&#257;. Dve asa&#7749;khat&#257;n&#299;ti? Na
heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe? dve asa&#7749;khat&#257;n&#299;ti? &#256;mant&#257;.
Dve t&#257;&#7751;&#257;ni?pe? antarik&#257; v&#257;ti? Na heva&#7747;
vattabbe?pe?.

   842. R&#363;passa r&#363;pat&#257;, nanu r&#363;pat&#257;
asa&#7749;khat&#257;ti? &#256;mant&#257;. Nibb&#257;na&#7747;?pe? amatanti? Na
heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe? r&#363;passa r&#363;pat&#257;, nanu r&#363;pat&#257;
asa&#7749;khat&#257;, nibb&#257;na&#7747; asa&#7749;khatanti? &#256;mant&#257;.
Dve asa&#7749;khat&#257;n&#299;ti? Na heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe? dve
asa&#7749;khat&#257;n&#299;ti? &#256;mant&#257;. Dve t&#257;&#7751;&#257;ni?pe?
antarik&#257; v&#257;ti? Na heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe?.

   Vedan&#257;ya vedanat&#257;, nanu vedanat&#257;?pe? sa??&#257;ya sa??at&#257;,
nanu sa??at&#257;?pe? sa&#7749;kh&#257;r&#257;na&#7747;
sa&#7749;kh&#257;rat&#257;, nanu sa&#7749;kh&#257;rat&#257;?pe?
vi??&#257;&#7751;assa vi??&#257;&#7751;at&#257;, nanu vi??&#257;&#7751;at&#257;
asa&#7749;khat&#257;ti? &#256;mant&#257;. Nibb&#257;na&#7747;?pe? amatanti? Na
heva&#7747; vattabbe ?pe?.

   R&#363;passa r&#363;pat&#257;, nanu r&#363;pat&#257;?pe? vi??&#257;&#7751;assa
vi??&#257;&#7751;at&#257;, nanu vi??&#257;&#7751;at&#257; asa&#7749;khat&#257;,
nibb&#257;na&#7747; asa&#7749;khatanti? &#256;mant&#257;. Cha
asa&#7749;khat&#257;n&#299;ti? Na heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe? cha
asa&#7749;khat&#257;n&#299;ti? &#256;mant&#257;. Cha t&#257;&#7751;&#257;ni?pe?
antarik&#257; v&#257;ti? Na heva&#7747; vattabbe?pe?.

   843. Na vattabba&#7747; ? ??sabbadhamm&#257;na&#7747; tathat&#257;
asa&#7749;khat&#257;??ti? &#256;mant&#257;. Sabbadhamm&#257;na&#7747;
tathat&#257; r&#363;pa&#7747;? vedan&#257;? sa??&#257;?
sa&#7749;kh&#257;r&#257;? vi??&#257;&#7751;anti? Na heva&#7747; vattabbe . Tena
hi sabbadhamm&#257;na&#7747; tathat&#257; asa&#7749;khat&#257;ti.
   Tathat&#257;kath&#257; ni&#7789;&#7789;hit&#257;.


---------------------------------
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#2320
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:07 pm 
Subject: Re: Kathavatthupali 19.5 

Hi Rahula,

The Pali text (in Unicode) in your message doesn't display properly in my
inbox. I would suggest that such submissions be converted to Velthuis before
posting to this group. Ven. Yuttadhammo has a simple conversion script
utility for this at the following url:
http://pali.sirimangalo.org/convertpad.htm which I just used to make the
conversion below. An English translation can probably be found in the PTS
publication: Points of Controversy. I'm away from most of my Pali books
until March.

Best wishes,
Jim

Converted to Velthuis:

Hi,

   Could someone provide a translation of Kathaavatthupaa.li, 19.
Ekuunaviisatimavaggo, (190) 5. Tathataakathaa

   Thanks a lot,
   Rahula

   19. Ekuunaviisatimavaggo
   (190) 5. Tathataakathaa

   841. Sabbadhammaana.m tathataa asa"nkhataati? AAmantaa. Nibbaana.m.pe.
amatanti? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe. sabbadhammaana.m tathataa asa"nkhataa,
nibbaana.m asa"nkhatanti ? AAmantaa. Dve asa"nkhataaniiti? Na heva.m
vattabbe.pe. dve asa"nkhataaniiti? AAmantaa. Dve taa.naani.pe. antarikaa
vaati? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe..

   842. Ruupassa ruupataa, nanu ruupataa asa"nkhataati? AAmantaa.
Nibbaana.m.pe. amatanti? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe. ruupassa ruupataa, nanu
ruupataa asa"nkhataa, nibbaana.m asa"nkhatanti? AAmantaa. Dve
asa"nkhataaniiti? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe. dve asa"nkhataaniiti? AAmantaa. Dve
taa.naani.pe. antarikaa vaati? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe..

   Vedanaaya vedanataa, nanu vedanataa.pe. sa~n~naaya sa~n~nataa, nanu
sa~n~nataa.pe. sa"nkhaaraana.m sa"nkhaarataa, nanu sa"nkhaarataa.pe.
vi~n~naa.nassa vi~n~naa.nataa, nanu vi~n~naa.nataa asa"nkhataati? AAmantaa.
Nibbaana.m.pe. amatanti? Na heva.m vattabbe .pe..

   Ruupassa ruupataa, nanu ruupataa.pe. vi~n~naa.nassa vi~n~naa.nataa, nanu
vi~n~naa.nataa asa"nkhataa, nibbaana.m asa"nkhatanti? AAmantaa. Cha
asa"nkhataaniiti? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe. cha asa"nkhataaniiti? AAmantaa. Cha
taa.naani.pe. antarikaa vaati? Na heva.m vattabbe.pe..

   843. Na vattabba.m - ''sabbadhammaana.m tathataa asa"nkhataa''ti?
AAmantaa. Sabbadhammaana.m tathataa ruupa.m. vedanaa. sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa.
vi~n~naa.nanti? Na heva.m vattabbe . Tena hi sabbadhammaana.m tathataa
asa"nkhataati.
   Tathataakathaa ni.t.thitaa.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ngawang Dorje" <rahula_80@yahoo.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Kathavatthupali 19.5


Hi,

   Could someone provide a translation of Kath&#257;vatthup&#257;&#7735;i,
19. Ek&#363;nav&#299;satimavaggo, (190) 5. Tathat&#257;kath&#257;

   Thanks a lot,
   Rahula

   19. Ek&#363;nav&#299;satimavaggo
   (190) 5. Tathat&#257;kath&#257;

======================================================
INDEX


Subject-lines listed by date for 2007
[note: original poster and message numbers are within square brackets] 

January 2007
13 EM's 2007 "edition" of Narada Thera's textbook [E. Mazard] [2109-11 =3]
14 EM's Pali website update, very brief further note [E. Mazard] [2112]
19 EM: Gone to Bokeo [E. Mazard] [2113]
24 New (2007) Narada textbook finally ready for download [E. Mazard] [2114]

February
22 Re: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary [E. Mazard: 2041, M. Allon: 2115] [2115-17 =3]

March
19 Survey of Thai-Pali literature, 1969 [E. Mazard] [2118-19 =2]
25 Phayao Pali Study Centre (!) [E. Mazard] [2120]

April
01 Update [J. Anderson] [2121]

May
05 birch-bark paper for Pali Mss? [J. Anderson] [2122]
07 Birch-barch MS (1st century) & Kacc [E. Mazard] [2123, 2127-8, 2130 =6]
     Pind's article: Table of Contents [E. Mazard] [2124-6 =3]
08 Dangers of being a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka [E. Mazard] [2129]
10 Kacc 271 [J. Anderson] [2131-33, 2136, 2138-39, 2141-50, 2152-60 =24]
11 [deleted accidental post by T.K. Wen] [2134]
     Kacc & Classical punctuation [E. Mazard] [2135]
12 Bokeo: The Pali milieu [E. Mazard] [2137]
     Bokeo: The Pali milieu (2) [E. Mazard] [2140]
15 For a (digital) Pali dictionary [E. Mazard] [2151]
21 Kacc 271 (Sutt-nidd) [J. Anderson] [2161-65 =5]
31 di.t.thaa [O.H. Pind] [2166]

June
05 iCPD [O.H. Pind] [2167-84 =18]

July
13 One q. of lexicography, one q. of orthography [E. Mazard] [2185, 2187-90 =5]
15 Pali MS in Maha-Sarakham report [E. Mazard] [2186]

August
07 sudden death of Dr. Primoz Pecenko [J. Anderson] [2191]
13 Rare Buddhist Sanskrit book titles at BPS [Nyanatusita] [2192]
28 article on Pali lexicography [J. Anderson] [2193-96 =4]

September
01 Milindapaha or Milindapahaa [Nyanatusita] [2197-99, 2208 =4]
03 Kacc 1-5-1 (query & translation) [E. Mazard] [2200, 2203, 2205, 2207, 2211, 2213-5 =8]
     Kacc 1-4-12 (query, "agyaagaara?") [E. Mazard] [2201, 2216, 2222 =3]
     Kacc. example, "parakkamo" [E. Mazard] [2202, 2204, 2206 =3]
     Who is Alexander Wynn? [E. Mazard] [2209-10, 2212 =3]
05 Very brief note on Chiang Rai Universities [E. Mazard] [2217]
06 Strange praise for Peter Skilling [E. Mazard] [2218]
07 Abrupt Exile from Laos: Very Bad News Indeed [E. Mazard] [2219]
     Bad news for me, but good news for Kaccayana [E. Mazard] [2220-1 =2]
10 unicode in group messages [J. Anderson] [2223]
19 Fw: SuttaCentral announcement [J. Kelly] [2224]
     (1) Siam Society, (2) S. Collins grammar [E. Mazard] [2225]
20 eva.m me suta.m [O.H. Pind] [2226-7, 2229-30, 2233, 2235-40, 2289, 2291-2 =14]
     Dhammananda Kosambi [Nyanatusita] [2228, 2231-2, 2242, 2244-6 =7]
21 Pali studies in Kunming, China [E. Mazard] [2234, 2261 =2]
23 te suta.m/me suta.m [O.H. Pind] [2241, 2243, 2247, 2249-50, 2252, 2254-6, 2259-60, 2262
     =12]
25 Request for Jayamangala e-text [E. Mazard] [2248, 2251, 2253, 2257-8 =5]

October -2
02 PTS Subodhaala"nkaara with 2 .tiikaas [J. Anderson] [2263]
07 EM's Pali Website update [E. Mazard] [2264]

November
01 Two useful resources for Shan manuscripts [E. Mazard] [2265]
10 Kacc 10 revisited [G. Bedell] [2266-7, 2269-76, 2278, 2280 =12]
     Report from Yunnan, misc. comments on Kacc 10, digital textbooks, recent articles, etc.
          [E. Mazard] [2268]
12 B. Clough's 1824 Pali grammar [J. Anderson] [2277]
13 Kacc 1-2-9 revisited! ("Do dhassa ca") [E. Mazard] [2279]
     The dubious case of Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme [E. Mazard] [2281]
     Mahidol University's Buddhist Studies Programme [E. Mazard] [2282-8 =7]
15 Dakkhi.nodaka [Nyanatusita] [2290, 2293-2307, 2309 =17]
21 O.H. Pind's paper on Buddhaghosa uploaded [J. Anderson] [2308]

December
01 John Smith, Re: iyaat (Buddhist pseudo-Sanskrit) [E. Mazard] [2310-14 =5]
08 Pind's article on Buddhaghosa [E. Mazard] [2315]
26 Diodotus = Asoka? [E. Mazard] [2316]
27 E.M. in Issan & China, general update [E. Mazard] [2317]
28 Pali by bicycle [E. Mazard] [2318]
29 Kathavatthupali 19.5 [Rahula] [2319-20 =2]

New subject lines initiated by:
E. Mazard 39
J. Anderson 10
Nyanatusita Bhikkhu 4
O.H. Pind 4
J. Kelly 1
Rahula 1
Total of 59 subject lines

No. of posts per contributing member:
62 Eisel Mazard
49 Ole Holten Pind
40 Jim Anderson
15 L.S. Cousins
10 George Bedell
7 Nyanatusita Bhikkhu
8 Phra Noah Yuttadhammo
6 Mark Allon
4 Dhammanando Bhikkhu
3 John Kelly
2 Tzung Kuen Wen (Khemaramsi) 
1 Robert Kirkpatrick
1 Peter Masefield
1 Justin McDaniel
1 Ong Yong Peng
1 Everett Thiele
1 Rahula
Total of 212 messages for 2007

