[psgy06.txt Year 2006: Messages 1631-2108; January 8 - December 18, 2006 (478 messages). Yahoo! advertisements and notices contained in the original messages have been removed. Also, some messages containing a previous message repeated in its entirety have been trimmed.

Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages)
Prepared by Jim Anderson, Mar. 31, 2007]

1631 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 5:28am 
Subject: Pali Grammatica (for a change) 

A few recent finds in Sri Lanka,

1. In an article on grammatica (in an old issue of _The Maha Bodhi_),
B.C. Law mentions a work called "Nepatikava.n.nanaa" --reportedly a
text on indeclinable particles.  I do not know it, but it would
doubtless be very useful, as the indeclinables are given scant
treatment in most other classical sources (this has been discussed
before on the list).

2. In the same article, B.C. Law mentions (without full publication
details) _A Grammar of the Pali Language (after Kaccayana)_ by "Mr.
Tha Do Oung".  This work spans four volumes (!) and apparently covers
Pali grammar by providing a systematic exegesis of Kacc., chapter by
chapter.  This would be highly relevant to my current work; if anyone
know of this book, or has seen it, or has the opportunity to look it
up in a university library, please do so and report back to the list
as to the publication details --and as to the general quality of the
book.  B.C. Law praises it highly.

3. Whereas I previously mentioned my discovery of the "Suuci" genre in
general, the particular work that caught my attention (and seems to be
a compendious resource, in several large volumes) is the following:
   _A.t.thakaasuuci_, [No stated Author?], M.D. Gunasena [Publishers],
Colombo, 1969
I looked at it only very briefly, but it seemed to be very nearly the
"Pali-pali dictionary" that Jim Anderson had envisioned might be
distilled from the commentaries.

4. I don't know if I've mentioned this already, but Nyanatusita and I
happened upon an old, worm-eaten copy of the Baalaavataaro (with
missing pages) in the library of the BPS.  The remarkable thing about
this is that most specialists assume that the Bv. has never been
translated into English; this is now the second complete English
translation that I have "discovered" (the other being Vidyabhusana et.
al., previously described in this forum), and apparently each
translation was conducted in ignorance of the other, in about the same
era.  It would be short work for a scholar to compare the two
translations, improve upon them, and put out a reasonable text.  In
any case, this is a fully romanized edition, with translation, in one
small volume, cited as follows:
   _Baalaavataaro Pali Grammar_, Dhammakiti Sang-gha [sic.] Thero, &
revised by F.L. Woodward, Pegu Times Press [In Burma? Or was this a
Burmese owned press in Sri Lanka?  The edition seems very Sinhalese in
every detail, incl. the introduction, dedication, etc.], [No Date?]

   I also note that according to P. Skilling (JPTS XXVII, 2002, p.
160-1), the date of the oldest Pali inscription in Cambodia has now
been moved back with the discovery of a 7th/8th century brick bearing
the familiar _Ye Dhammaa..._ verses.  This was the first that I had
heard/read of the discovery --the artefact is much older than what had
previously been known as the oldest Pali inscription in ancient
Cambodia.

E.M.


1632 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 7:59pm 
Subject: Digital Pali Reader   

Dear Friends,

I am happy to announce a test 'launch' of the Digital Pali Reader to all the
members of this list.  The DPR is a
javascript-based (ie web-based) reader of the first four suttanta nikaayas (ie
minus the khuddaka).  The idea was to
combine the pali texts with the PED, CPED (of Buddhadatta) and DPPN to create
a
readable version of the tipitaka with
instant definitions of each and every word.  Though the work still falls short
of this goal, I would estimate that it
does recognize correctly at least 90% of the words - certainly enough to be of
some use to any pali student.  I leave it
up to anyone interested to try and see for themselves.  The core script (without
dictionaries) is here:

http://pali.fivethousandyears.org/DPR.exe

Just run the exe file, open the directory it creates and run index.html .  As
far as I know, it doesn't work in Internet
Explorer, but since there are many better internet browsers out there (such as
firefox, which the DPR was designed for),
this shouldn't cause great problems.  Firefox can be downloaded from
www.mozilla.com, Opera from www.opera.com

Notes:

1) compound recognition is still sketchy at best.  Suppiyopi is still recognized
as 'su-p-pi-yo-pi' instead of
'suppiyo-pi', and I'm sure there are worse in there.  Sometimes there are two
options, eg 'subha-ava' and 'su-bhaava',
but I should think that most students of the pali language do no better
themselves :)

2) since this is only a test, and since the PED and DPPN are locked under
respective licenses, the dictionary files are
not included with this archive.  The links only work if one checks the 'www'
checkbox near the bottom right of the
screen BEFORE bringing up the data in the main screen.  If anyone finds this
reader useful, please write to me at
yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org about using the dictionaries on your own
computer.

3) 'pnc' turns off the punctuation and 'c/l' sets the approximate number of
characters per line in the display.

If anyone would feel generous enough to write to me with bugs or imperfections,
I would be most appreciative, as many
are very easy to correct.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo


1633 
From: Miyamoto Tadao <professortadaomiyamoto@yahoo.co.jp> 
Date: Sun Jan 8, 2006 11:18pm 
Subject: Re: Pali Grammatica (for a change)  

Hi E. M.

Thank you very much for your facinating report from Sri Lanka.
Please keep exploring your exploration of Pali work.

tadao

--- Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> Υå
> A few recent finds in Sri Lanka,
>

1634 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 0:57am 
Subject: Re: Pali Grammatica (for a change)    

Three further notes:

   The "new" Balavataro (text & trans.) that I reported did indeed have
a date: 1915.

   I have been enjoying the PhD Thesis on _The Syntax of the Pali
Cases..._ enormously (this book was cited in full by Nyanatusita on
this list some time ago).  It is indeed the best work of its kind that
I have seen, and includes comparative references to Kacc., Mogg. &
Panini where appropriate.

   I am sorry to report that the BPS re-printing(s) of the Hewaviratine
edition(s) (of the commentaries, etc.) is of poor an inconstant
quality.  This is to say both that the quality is poor, and that from
one chapter to the next the poverty of the print (and colour of the
paper, etc.) will vary within any given volume.  There are other
annoyances, such as "descreening errors" that were made in
photoduplication of the originals (although the text is rarely
illegible --it would often enough be tiring or annoying to read).
This is rather sad, given that the original (first edition) was of
very good quality, and there are no real technical barriers to
reproducing it at an equal (or greater) quality in our times (i.e.,
when printing technology has supposedly improved!).  If one has
recourse to the first edition, I would advise you to Xerox from it
judiciously, rather than order the reprints --all of which are made by
a miscellany of Sinhalese print houses (some better than others), but,
for the most part, at a quality that would be demoralizing for a
western scholar to work with.

   I have not yet seen the Buddhist Cultural Center's reprint of the
BJT --but this is a direct photo-duplicate reprint, not a new edition.
  Their print quality (per se) seems rather fine --however, the quality
of the typesetting, font, and content of their works may be more
questionable than the BPS (they have a very broad editorial mandate,
and much that is good and bad seems to fall within it).

E.M.

1635 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:53am 
Subject: SV: Pali Grammatica (for a change)   

Dear Eisel Mazard,

   <I have been enjoying the PhD Thesis on _The Syntax of the Pali Cases..._
enormously (this book was cited in full by Nyanatusita on this list some
time ago).  It is indeed the best work of its kind that I have seen, and
includes comparative references to Kacc., Mogg. & Panini where appropriate.>

I agree! However, there is still room for improvement on the description of
the evidence, for instance, on the uses of the locative. O. von Hinber
published a "Kasussyntax" in 1968, I believe. We still need a comprehensive
Pali syntax that includes verbal syntax etc. J. Fahs attempted one: Beitrge
zur Syntax de Palisprache. PhD 1963. I am presently working on one. God only
knows when I shall be able to finalise it.

  < I am sorry to report that the BPS re-printing(s) of the Hewaviratine
edition(s) (of the commentaries, etc.) is of poor an inconstant quality.
This is to say both that the quality is poor, and that from one chapter to
the next the poverty of the print (and colour of the paper, etc.) will vary
within any given volume.  There are other annoyances, such as "descreening
errors" that were made in photoduplication of the originals (although the
text is rarely illegible --it would often enough be tiring or annoying to
read).
This is rather sad, given that the original (first edition) was of very good
quality, and there are no real technical barriers to reproducing it at an
equal (or greater) quality in our times (i.e., when printing technology has
supposedly improved!).  If one has recourse to the first edition, I would
advise you to Xerox from it judiciously, rather than order the reprints
--all of which are made by a miscellany of Sinhalese print houses (some
better than others), but, for the most part, at a quality that would be
demoralizing for a western scholar to work with.>

Thank you for this information. I was considering ordering a set for my
library. I have given up the idea.


OP

1636 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:17am 
Subject: Re: Pali Grammatica (for a change)

Dear Eisel and group,

>
>
>  I am sorry to report that the BPS re-printing(s) of the Hewaviratine
>edition(s) (of the commentaries, etc.) is of poor an inconstant
>quality.

I recently ordered most of the volumes of the Jataka commentaries reprinted
around 1988-91. The quality of these is fine, at least for me. Are these the
reprints you mean, or are you referring to later ones?

They have soft grey covers, and on the back cover it says someting like: PRINTED
BY PRINTING HOUSE on 23.05.1990. There's no specific mention of BPS in the
volumes themselves. But as I mentioned, they're clearly enough printed for my
needs. I'm very happy with them.


best regards,

/Rett

1637 
From: nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:29pm 
Subject: Re: Pali Grammatica (for a change)

Dear Eisel and group,

The BPS has nothing to do with this reprinting, they are only for sale
at the BPS bookshop.

Like Rett I am a bit surprised by your negative assessment of the
quality of the printing (by way of photocopying). The Hewavitarne
reprints of the Anguttara Nikaya commentary, Suttanipata commentary,
Visuddhimagga, etc, we have at the Forest Hermitage look quite readable
and fine to me, especially given the fact that they are photocopies of
books printed in the 1920s. Occasionally there might be a page with a
bit lighter (but not unreadable) printing, but this probably is due to
the original printing. I have seen much worse reprints in Sri Lanka. One
also has to take into consideration that the reprints are quite cheaply
priced, for example, the whole Anguttara Atthakatha costs 350 rupees,
which is about three and a half US $.
Best wishes,
                       Bh. Nyanatusita

>
>  I am sorry to report that the BPS re-printing(s) of the Hewaviratine
>edition(s) (of the commentaries, etc.) is of poor an inconstant
>quality.  This is to say both that the quality is poor, and that from
>one chapter to the next the poverty of the print (and colour of the
>paper, etc.) will vary within any given volume.  There are other
>annoyances, such as "descreening errors" that were made in
>photoduplication of the originals (although the text is rarely
>illegible --it would often enough be tiring or annoying to read).

1638 
From: nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:59pm 
Subject: Pali Declension and Inflection Tables

Dear All,

The detailed but concise (they all fit onto one A4 page) Pali Declension
and Inflection tables I made are available in PDF format on the Access
to Insight website at

  http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatusita/index.html

and also at Esangha Pali Forum at

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=18068&hl=declension+ta
ble

The tables can be of much use to Pali students. One Pali teacher in
England is handing them out to his students.

Best wishes,
                          Bh. Nyanatusita

1639 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:33am 
Subject: Further Pali Grammatica    

I'm first going to list our most recent "discoveries", then reply to
some points raised in reply to my former posting.

Yesterday, Nyanatusita and I ventured out to the University of
Peradeniya Library --sadly, this may be the last time either one of us
has direct access to the collections.  The University's supreme
council has declared that the library is for students only, and,
henceforth, neither foreign scholars nor monks will be allowed entry
(unless, of course, they speak to someone sufficiently high up in the
bureaucracy to have an exception made in their case ... a time
consuming venture that will deter many like myself, who have limited
time on the island).

The library itself is reasonably charming in the cool season; I assume
(and Bhadanta N. affirms) that it would be rather difficult to endure
in the heat of summer.  It is the only library I have ever visited
where Pali is the first part of the collection that you see after
walking through the main entrance; sadly, the Pali resources are
(illogically) spread out into several confusing sections and
sub-collections around the building --it would take some considerable
time and patience to really "use" the collection, as the card
catalogues seemed abysmal (and I doubt that the entire collection has
ever been properly catalogued).

However, in sifting through the near-random assortment of old editions
on the wall, one has the strange pleasure of encountering hand-written
notes by Trenckner, Woodward, and Rhys-Davids, etc. --as many editions
are "ex libris", and were personally bound (from miscellaneous
sources) to begin with.

So... what did we find?

In a single binding they had the first three volumes of the important
four-volume explanation of Kaccaya by Tha Do Oung --however, they
lacked the fourth volume, and the edition was badly rotting.  At any
rate, I may now provide a full citation, and again plead that
list-members check their libraries to see if a complete (and intact)
edition can be found, possibly to be Xerox copied or scanned, as this
would be very useful for my own work:
   _A Grammar of the Pali Language (after Kaccaayana)_, Tha Do Oung,
1899 (i.e., Vol. 1 = 1899), Akyab Orphan Press (!)

I note that Akyab is indeed in the Arakan/Chittagong region of Burma
--so those who are interested may want to investigate any other
editions that were produced in this period by the "Akyab Orphan
Press".

I discovered a Sinhalese edition of the (Burmese) Vaccavaacaka, a
grammatical work in the Kacc. tradition (Nyanatusita informs me), that
I had not previously encountered.  Nyanatusita's list stipulates two
Tikas and a Diipanii for this short work --so I conclude that it is
either a very dense or a very important grammatical treatise.  Note
the erroneous Romanization in the title of this Sinhalese edition
(i.e., likely library catalogues will repeat the error):
   _Wacchawachakaya_ (sic.), Dhammadasi Maha Sami, 1899, (with a
Sinhalese Paraphrase by V.A. Nanatilaka)

   Another edition of Kacc. was produced in Sri Lanka in 1913 ... seems
to be derivative of the 1904 edition, etc., but varies in the stated
title, among other details:
   _Kaccaayana, the oldest and most complete grammar of the Paali
Language_, Kaccaayana, 1913, "Revised by Venerable M. Gunaratana"
   A few days ago, Nyanatusita and I scanned in the earlier (1894)
edition of Kacc. in Sinhalese script with marginalia --and this will
become available anon.

   A very small, seemingly useful instruction & exercise book produced
at Poona (with English instruction/vocabulary, but Devanagari-script
Pali) is the following,
   _A Manual of Paali_, C.V. Joshi, 1964, Poona
I may have recourse to this one day myself if/when I want to practice
Pali in devanagari.

   I finally saw/encountered a copy of D'Alwis's 1863 work on Pali
Grammar --it seems as if it would still be a very engaging read today,
as it is more a series of misc. articles on grammatical subjects than
a coherent edition or treatise.  A "pioneering" work to be sure, and
one that is filled with errors --including mistakes as to which source
text is which.

   Two obscure works by C. Duroiselle & co., _Pali Unseens_, 1907, is a
set of texts for in-class instruction and testing (not very useful),
and from the same press with no stated author is _Pali Poetry_,
seeming more useful.

   In reply to the points raised:
   1. Indeed, the book on syntax is limited to nouns, and thus is
inadequate in treating verbs, word-order, and particles, among other
things.  However, it remains the best book of its kind that I have
seen --certainly more useful than Warder, for a student at my
transitional level of (in-)competence.
   2. The quality of the Hewaviratine re-prints is indeed (as I
described) both "poor" and "inconsistent" --if Rett is happy with his
particular volume, than I am happy for him.  However, even the best
volumes (within the inconsistent range that I described) stand in
un-flattering contrast to the first edition.  Most of the re-printed
volumes that I handled had inconsistent page-colour (e.g., one hundred
pages in grimy white, followed by two hundred of grimy yellow, then
switching back, showing a printer who didn't care about alternating
between different paper stock --all of it rather poor quality) and, as
I say, the actual quality of the text, etc., would be a disappointment
to a westerner --especially if their expectations were formed on the
basis of the first edition.
   While it is true that these Sinhalese editions are cheap, having
them shipped is certainly not; further, howeverso cheap they may be,
they are not cheaper than Burmese, Indian, or Taiwanese editions --and
the Burmese, Indian and Taiwanese re-prints and editions I have seen
are more legible, and less depressing to look at.  Thus, I suggested
that one consider acquiring or reproducing the first editions for
oneself --I could here add the suggestion of Burmese editions as an
alternative (although, of course, they are not a substitute, esp. for
comparative reading, etc.).

E.M.

1640 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:47am 
Subject: Re: Further Pali Grammatica

Dear Eisel and group,

Thanks for the ongoing descriptions of your travels - great reading and
interesting. I'll look out for Tha Do Oung 's Kacc study. Is it in English? 
There are boxes of uncatalogued Pali-related books in Uppsala which I haven't
had time yet to dig through. It's not impossible that it would be in that
collection.

Just a few points about the below.


>However, even the best
>volumes (within the inconsistent range that I described) stand in
>un-flattering contrast to the first edition.  Most of the re-printed
>volumes that I handled had inconsistent page-colour (e.g., one hundred
>pages in grimy white, followed by two hundred of grimy yellow, then
>switching back, showing a printer who didn't care about alternating
>between different paper stock --all of it rather poor quality) and, as
>I say, the actual quality of the text, etc., would be a disappointment
>to a westerner --especially if their expectations were formed on the
>basis of the first edition.

This sounds like my usual experience of books from South Asia. I have books
printed in Delhi, Calcutta and Bombay that switch colors, have scrunched pages,
have overinked pages, underinked pages, pages where broken type has been 'fixed'
by scratching the missing letters in by hand on the plates, books with so much
camphor in them you'd think you were locked in an old wardrobe in a trench on
the Somme 1916, and books which are marred by excessive typos, suggesting
complete lack of interest on the part of the typesetters.

Compared to these, my Jataka commentary reprints are towards the upper end of
the scale. They're fine. Maybe that's why I didn't react.

I have a couple of volumes of the first edition, and you're right that it seems
more consistent, but the difference is not that huge. And this also reflects a
wider trend: Indian books printed in the first half of the last century or
earlier seem to hold a higher level of quality than later ones. I don't know the
reason for that.

I took your post as suggesting these reprints were unusually abysmal, which the
ten or so volumes I have aren't. On the contrary they're quite okay by South
Asian standards. My Vol IX (Netti Comm) is excellently printed, for instance. I
haven't found a single unsatisfactory page in it (again, back cover stamped:
Printed by Printing House 23.02.1991. Maybe you're looking at a later printing?)

Even if some volumes are worse, students get used dealing with typos and missing
or half-missing bits of text. And as I understand it, the occasional typo goes
directly back to the first edition. (things like maatucchito, which should be
maatukucchito, not covered by the errata probably because it's so unproblematic
a reader doesn't even notice the missing ku character)

Sanskrit requires a combination of two contradictory character traits:
nitpicking attention to detail in grammar (to the point of being a control
freak), and a relaxed maaa attitude towards bad printing and typos. Reading
bad editions is a kind of militaristic hazing western students of Sanskrit are
put through to see if they can handle the stress. Compared to that, these
volumes are a walk in the park.


>  While it is true that these Sinhalese editions are cheap, having
>them shipped is certainly not;

Air mail shipping approximately doubles the price in my experience, which makes
them still a good deal.

>further, howeverso cheap they may be,
>they are not cheaper than Burmese, Indian, or Taiwanese editions --and
>the Burmese, Indian and Taiwanese re-prints and editions I have seen
>are more legible, and less depressing to look at.

I'd love to be able to order Burmese editions. Where do you order them from? I'm
still looking for a reliable bookseller, in Rangoon or elsewhere, who handles
Burmese editions of Pali works and ships worldwide.

One advantage of Sinhalese editions is that the Sinhalese syllabary contains a
lot of redundancy in the characters (a trait not shared by modern fonts which
have removed some of the flourishes). This makes it easier to read a character
that is partly broken or smudged. Burmese characters, because of their
minimalism, seem to me to be more sensitive to bad printing. If half the
character is gone you often haven't got a chance of guessing it if you can't
guess the word and work backwards.

Best regards,

/Rett

1641 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:11am 
Subject: Re: Further Pali Grammatica     

Very briefly:

   (1) I examined the Buddhist Cultural Center reprints of the BJT
today --they are as good or better than the first edition in quality,
HOWEVER, please remind yourself of how crappy the originals really
were.  You may have forgotton just how bad the shine-through, binding,
etc., were in the original BJT; this edition is a photo-reduplication,
with better binding, and somewhat better paper, and print that is as
legible (and as consistent) as the original --i.e., not impressively
so, but very easy to work with.  Nyanatusita insists that as a
photocopy the quality can "never" be considered better ... and so far
as the type/text _per se_ is concerned this is true.  However, if your
expectations are based on the first edition, you won't be
disappointed.

    The entire tripitaka runs a little more than U.S.$300, and the
suttapitaka alone is circa $200.  Recall that this includes both the
Pali & the 10th century Sinhala translation ... thus, double the
weight for shipping that you might expect.

(2) We found an intact copy of Tha Do Oung's grammar at the Royal
Asiatic Society (SL) --among other gems.  We will try to digitally
photograph the volume tomorrow; only the first 200 pages will be of
direct interest, as they are followed by a kind of dictionary of
roots, and then a treatise on metre (well... perhaps this will
interest you).  However, only the first two volumes directly follow
Kacc. in their organization, and explanation of rules.

In reply to Rett: Yes, it is in English.

Note: library catalogues may use any of Tha Do Oung's three names as
the family name.  The RASSL uses "Tha" as the family name / last name,
i.e., following the pattern for Chinese names; I have no idea how this
applies to Arakanese!

Re:
> One advantage of Sinhalese editions is that the Sinhalese syllabary contains a
lot of redundancy in the characters (a trait not shared by modern fonts which
have removed some of the flourishes).

I think you complained about the opposite not too long ago, e.g.,
Sinh. "n" vs. "t".  However, there are ornate forms of the Burmese/Mon
family in print, such as Lao-Dhamma --and those scripts have their
fans, even on this very list!  Most Burmese editions compensate for
the simplicity and density of the script with large type-size ... and
for many westerners, this is probably an advantage.  What we now call
"modern Burmese script" is basically a highly simplified "average" of
a wide variety of script forms that grew out of Mon in the region; old
printed editions and MS have lots of the flourishes / "redundancy"
that you're talking about.  Enjoy!

E.M.

1642 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:40pm 
Subject: Sri Lankan grammatical discoveries (final report)  
 

After a gruelling 48 hours of transit, I am now back in the Lao P.D.R.
(by plane -> train -> bicycle).

Nyanatusita and I had mixed results from various research trips to the
Royal Asiatic Society, National Museum Library, National Archives,
National Library, National Ministry of Culture, and various university
campuses in Colombo.  I should here thank Nyanatusita for accompanying
me throughout, playing the role of Virgil to my Dante in navigating
the rings of Colombo's streets in the withering heat.  I was able to
return the favour somewhat, by playing the Kappukara's role, and
buying some books to donate to the Forest Hermitage collection.

We ordered five MS from the National Museum's collection --only 2
could be found.  When they invited me to check for a missing Kacc. MS
myself, I could easily see significant numbers of "missing" MS in the
numbering system for every shelf.  Evidently, the collection is being
looted at a gradual pace; on an earlier trip, Nyanatusita had a
similar proportion of MS discovered to be "not present" in response to
his requests.  It may be that some of these MS have been "legitimately
misplaced" --but I doubt that this is the significant cause.  We duly
requested to have one rare meditation text and one edition of Kacc.
Xerox copied for our edification, and I shall hope that the Museum
Library will follow through on our requests.

One of the most unexpectedly positive experiences (in negotiating our
way through various bureaucratic organizations and libraries) was at
the Royal Asiatic Society of Sri Lanka (RASSL).  The staff were truly
very helpful, and eagerly encouraged us in photographing Ta Do Oung's
rare grammar, as well as encouraging Ny. to become a member, and
requesting that I return and give a formal lecture on Kacc. after my
book is complete.  While it is a small office, the RASSL is genuinely
well organized, and encouraging of visiting scholars (not the
impression one gets at the Peradeniya library!); I would also note
that in an era of very poor content filling the pages of
once-prestigious academic publications, the recent issues of the
journal of the RASSL really did seem to contain much of merit, from
all fields of archaeology, history, etc., including (but not limited
to) textual studies.  As I perused various issues of their journal, I
certainly found it much less depressing than reading such stuff as
"Philosophy East and West" now publishes, etc.!

In passing, I will mention that I met Ms. Anne Blackburn, who later
gave a speech at the RASSL herself (I did not attend, and had already
departed the island).  I was rather shocked that her long and verbose
book on the "transitional period" of the establishment of the Siam
Nikaya in S.L. hardly mentioned the case system --i.e., the most
interesting and significant aspect of that "transition" being the
formal incorporation of caste into the Sinhalese monastic system (and
the exclusion of low-caste persons from higher ordination, etc., by
the Siam Nikaya).  This subject was only mentioned on four pages of
her text, about three of them were brief footnotes, and the fourth
said nothing of substance on the matter.  I would assume that she is
trying to earn her place in the "good graces" of the Siam Nikaya by
saying nothing "offensive"; I take a dim view of such a compromise
--and I can only surmise that her scholarship is thus "compromised".

Here is the final report of grammatical "discoveries" from my Sri
Lankan research trip.  For all sources, I am particuar in reproducing
the (mis-)spellings of the title and author's names as they appear in
the text itself --as the same spellings (erroneous or not) will likely
appear in library catalogues.  The usual ambiguities between "w" and
"v", the presence or absence of a redundant "-ya" ending, etc., should
always be considered when searching for Sinhalese editions.

1. Of all the Sinhalese editions of the Sadda-Niti that I've seen (and
I saw many during this trip), the most impressive seemed to be the
following:
   _Mahaasaddaniiti: an advanced grammar of the Paali language_,
Aggawa.nsa Mahaa Thera, (revised by:) Aruggoda Seelaananda Thera,
1909, Colombo, H.C. Cotte, Government Printer.
    I say it is "the most impressive" on fairly superficial grounds,
i.e., the beauty of the edition, legibility, etc., but these are
fairly weighty considerations if you plan to spend much time with a
text; I also assume that because it is of sufficiently late date (and
is a large, handsome edition, evidently produced for local consumption
by experts) that some care has been taken to correct errors from
earlier 19th century editions (of which there are many) --but this is
a crass assumption on my part.

2. I can now provide somewhat fuller citations for the
"A.t.thakatha-suuci" that I have alluded to earlier.  It does indeed
seem to be an excellent resource, but Nyanatusita expressed a very
reasonable concern in asking if it had been completed, or if the
project was abandoned after the first few volumes (as per the CPD!).
In any case, we have only seen the first few volumes, and it would be
very useful if Rett or Ole could check their library catalogues to
determine whether or not this was compiled for the entire alphabet.
If so, it is a major "Pali-Pali dictionary", that provides references
to the word definitions found throughout the commentaries.
   _Atthakathasuuci_, (editor:) Kosagoda Sirisumedha, 1961 (vol. II =
1962), Anula Press, Colombo (NB: that's Anula Press --I think I
mis-reported the publisher in an earlier e-mail).

3. I note two Sinhalese editions of the Netti., both looking very good
by the superficial criteria I could apply, and with the same peculiar
spelling of the author's name, but, apparently, each created by a
completely different editorship (working from different MS??):
   _Nettippakarana.m_, Bhadanta Maha Kachchayana, (revised by:)
Deniyapitiye Sudassi Thera & Ven. Sri Sumangala Ratanasara, 1923,
(printed in:) Tal-arambe (!! a small town in Sri Lanka).
   _Nettippakarana.m_, Bhadanta Maha Kachchayana, (revised by:) Pandit
D. Siri Sudassi Thera & Pandit K. Sirinivasa, 1948, (printed in:)
Kandana (?? alternate spelling of Kandy??).

In closing, I do not know if I mentioned that I made a long trip
through the ancient cities, etc., in the company of two veterans of
humanitarian causes in Burma (i.e., providing direct assistance to
concentration camps and prisoners of "detention centres" on the
Burma-Thai border), namely, Ken & Vishaka Kawasaki.  I thus learned a
great deal of practical significance about the slow-motion genocides
that are proceeding in Burma, while at the same time inspecting the
old inscriptions, etc., in the ancient cities.  My own presence on the
journey was incidental --the original cause for their organizing the
trip was to provide an opportunity for two Indian monks (part of the
"New Buddhist" movement in India) to conduct a pilgrimage.  I learned
a bit more about the ongoing caste struggle in India from these monks;
I also note that they chanted Pali at a few of the sites, and their
phonetic reading of the Pali was impeccable.  Perhaps the Maharastri
Prakrit has preserved a sense of the pronounciation and elocution of
Pali?  One can only hope.

E.M.

1643 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2006 0:35am 
Subject: Murder, not grammar (S.L. & Thailand)     

To digress very briefly, I note the following

(1) The man known as Prince Anouvong Sethathirat IV was just
assasinated in Nong Khai, Thailand, along with his wife.  This is not
the sort of thing that gets reported in the Western Press, but it is
(and will be) significant for the history of the region.  The shooting
took place at Sala Kaew-kaw, i.e., a famous garden of modern
(concrete) Hindu and Buddhist sculptures, doubtless a familiar site
for several members of this list, and a popular tourist attraction.
The authors of the assasination are unknown, but, I would expect,
conspiracy theorists will not take long to jump to their conclusions.

(2) In case you think I'm just a tourist...
I picked up a copy of _An X- ray of the Sri Lankan policing system &
torture of the poor_ --I believe this was published less than six
months ago.  I very much "enjoyed" its brutal, factual descriptions of
manifold (recent) acts of torture, abduction, and murder carried out
by the Sinhalese police and army.  The tacit thesis of the book (a
collection of essays with various explicit theses) is that press
coverage has tended to frame this brutality in terms of racial
divisions, and the legacy of the British empire, but the facts suggest
that the primary division is between rich and poor (i.e., the
Sinhalese authorities do indeed brutalize Sinhalese pesants, perhaps
more than Tamils) and that this systemic brutality seems to have
developed in the post-British period (i.e., the Sinhalese system has
replaced, not perpetuated, a former colonial system --each being
brutal after its own fashion).
   There's a book review, here:
   http://www.ahrchk.net/pr/mainfile.php/2005mr/266/

E.M.

1644 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:13am 
Subject: Re: Sri Lankan grammatical discoveries (final report)    

Good observations by Eisel; however, I really liked Dr.
Blackburn's book. She had to cut it back significantly from
her excellent dissertation because of the limits placed by
publishers on most books to 80,000 words. She knows a great
deal about caste, but was focused on lineages. Jeffrey Samuels
is writing about caste and ordination in SL now. He learned
much about this from his work in SL and from Anne Blackburn.
Too bad about the difficulty finding mss. in SL, hopefully
many were not sold or lost, but its sounds like many were.
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:40:51 +0700
>From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Sri Lankan grammatical discoveries
(final report)
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>After a gruelling 48 hours of transit, I am now back in the
Lao P.D.R.
>(by plane -> train -> bicycle).
>
...
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
909-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

1645 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:26am 
Subject: Re: Murder, not grammar (S.L. & Thailand)      

Princess Oulayvanh Sethathirath and her husband Prince
Anouvong Sethathirat IV were colleagues of mine. We received
the news soon after it happened two days ago. We are very sad
because they were wonderfully smart and kind people. Besides
the loss we feel as friends, the field has experienced a great
loss since they had helped Lao Studies in the US a great deal.
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:35:17 +0700
>From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Murder, not grammar (S.L. & Thailand)
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>To digress very briefly, I note the following
>
>(1) The man known as Prince Anouvong Sethathirat IV was just
>assasinated in Nong Khai, Thailand, along with his wife. This is not

1646 
From: Alan McClure <alanmcclure3@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:46am 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali

Dear all,

Seeing that there are many professors and other experts of Pali in this
group, I have a question that I know you will all have a relevant answer
to.  Therefore, I would appreciate as many answers as possible, whether
short or long (although the longer the better.)

If one is interested in the study of Pali and early Buddhism as it
develops into Theravada, setting aside textual languages (i.e., Pali,
Sanskrit, Classical Chinese, Classical Tibetan) what would be the most
important languages to be able to read regarding having the most access
to academic writings on these issues?

Currently I can read English and French and I find them both useful.
However, I cannot read German, and was thinking that this might be my
next focus.  Yet, I have also heard that Japanese scholars are currently
writing extensively on the Pali canon and the Agamas (also of interest
to me), and I also assume that Sinhala would be useful for the study of
Pali and Theravada.

May I have your views, based on your experience, regarding this issue?
Is it reasonable to think that Japanese might be the most useful
scholarly language for these areas after English?  Or would one of the
other languages I have mentioned be a better option (i.e. German,
Sinhala)?  I look forward to your responses with appreciation.


With metta,

Alan
E-Sangha Pali Discussion Forum for  the advanced or beginning student of
Pali:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50

1647 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2006 0:07pm 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali       

german is a must (frauwallner, von hinuber, oldenberg, and
many other great german scholars of early buddhism).

a reading knowledge of japanese would be very useful,
especially with the rise of the study of early buddhism at
otani university and the international college of advanced
buddhist studies in japan. the best person to contact in this
regard in kanzaburo tanabe or hubert durt in japan. they can
have you navigate the best work in japanese. i read an early
draft of richard jaffe's book on the japanese scholarly
interest in south and southeast asian buddhism which will be
available in the spring. he looks at the way new schools of
japanese scholars started seriously studying sri lankan, thai,
and burmese buddhism in the 1920s (part of the military
interest in the region as well at that time). he traces this
scholarship through the 20th century. look out for that book.

what we really need are scholars who can read russian. there
has been a lot of good work in russian that is generally
ignored by the international community of scholars.
of course, depending on your interests, knowledge of a
southeast asian vernacular (burmese esp.), chinese or tibetan
would be useful for early buddhism. too many languages too
little time.

best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 07:46:06 -0600
>From: Alan McClure <alanmcclure3@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Languages for academic study of Pali
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Dear all,
>
>Seeing that there are many professors and other experts of
Pali in this

1648 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:44pm 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali 

Very briefly, re: Russian,

I agree that there is a wealth of untranslated material on Indology in
Russian; perhaps we could organize some kind of project to short-list
major tracts on Pali, Prakrit, Vedic, etc., and consider paying for a
translation service to prepare the best of them for publication (in
English) by the PTS.

I'm imagining a volume titled _Russian sources on Pali and Prakrit in
English translation: 1980-2005_ --anyone interested?

E.M.

1649 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:21pm 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali      

Maybe Dmytro Ivakhnenko (Kiev, Ukraine) would be interested?

He maintains www.sadhu.ru and is very much into Pali language study.  His email
is:

nibbanka@bigmir.net

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

Eisel Mazard wrote:
> Very briefly, re: Russian,
>
> I agree that there is a wealth of untranslated material on Indology in
> Russian; perhaps we could organize some kind of project to short-list
> major tracts on Pali, Prakrit, Vedic, etc., and consider paying for a
> translation service to prepare the best of them for publication (in
> English) by the PTS.
>
> I'm imagining a volume titled _Russian sources on Pali and Prakrit in
> English translation: 1980-2005_ --anyone interested?
>
> E.M.

1650 
From: "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:49am 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali

Dear Eisel,

that is simply a wonderful idea. I have no previous knowledge of
Russian materials on Pali. I would be happy to see things going.

I like to join PTS for a long time, but having to print the membership
form and sending it by post just doesn't appeal to me. Is there any
electronic means of admission?


metta,
Yong Peng.



--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Eisel Mazard wrote:
>
> I agree that there is a wealth of untranslated material on Indology in
> Russian; perhaps we could organize some kind of project to short-list
> major tracts on Pali, Prakrit, Vedic, etc., and consider paying for a
> translation service to prepare the best of them for publication (in
> English) by the PTS.
>
> I'm imagining a volume titled _Russian sources on Pali and Prakrit in
> English translation: 1980-2005_ --anyone interested?

1651 
From: Alan McClure <alanmcclure3@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:44am 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali

Yuttadhammo wrote:

> Maybe Dmytro Ivakhnenko (Kiev, Ukraine) would be interested?
>
> He maintains www.sadhu.ru and is very much into Pali language study.
> His email is:
>
> nibbanka@bigmir.net
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Yuttadhammo

Dear all,

Actually, it is Dmytro who asked me to convey this URl:
http://dhamma.ru/paali/

to the group.   I just posted it in another message before seeing this one.

Alan

1652 
From: Alan McClure <alanmcclure3@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:41am 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali

Eisel Mazard wrote:

> Very briefly, re: Russian,
>
> I agree that there is a wealth of untranslated material on Indology in
> Russian; perhaps we could organize some kind of project to short-list
> major tracts on Pali, Prakrit, Vedic, etc., and consider paying for a
> translation service to prepare the best of them for publication (in
> English) by the PTS.
>
> I'm imagining a volume titled _Russian sources on Pali and Prakrit in
> English translation: 1980-2005_ --anyone interested?
>
> E.M.


Dear Eisel, all,

A friend of mine asked me to convey this url to the group:
http://dhamma.ru/paali/

Hopefully it will be a first step.  I can't read what any of it says.  :-)


With metta,

Alan

1653 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:52am 
Subject: Re: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali   

Dear Yong Peng,

> I like to join PTS for a long time, but having to print the membership
> form and sending it by post just doesn't appeal to me. Is there any
> electronic means of admission?

You could try contacting PTS directly by email. I believe Ms Karen
Wendland will be the one who answers. You can pay for your membership by
providing one half of your credit card information in one email and the
other half in another as a precautionary measure. I think the five-year
sponsoring membership is the best choice as you will receive a free book
(that you can choose) per year and you don't have to think about annual
renewals.

Best wishes,
Jim

1654 
From: "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:51am 
Subject: Re: Languages for academic study of Pali

Dear Jim,

thanks. I shall contact Ms Wendland as advised.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

> I like to join PTS for a long time, but having to print the
> membership form and sending it by post just doesn't appeal to me.
> Is there any electronic means of admission?

You could try contacting PTS directly by email. I believe Ms Karen
Wendland will be the one who answers. You can pay for your membership
by providing one half of your credit card information in one email
and the other half in another as a precautionary measure. I think the
five-year sponsoring membership is the best choice as you will
receive a free book (that you can choose) per year and you don't have
to think about annual renewals.

1655 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 1, 2006 2:06am 
Subject: SEA Statuary, the ethical alternative     

I have been meaning to mention a remarkable discovery I made in
Ayudhaya (Thailand) just before my departure to Sri Lanka --and an
ethical alternative to stolen Cambodian Buddhist art (that we were
discussing at the time).

There is a "stonecutters' village" in Ayudhaya, and by far the most
impressive was the following shop, producing genuinely beautiful
reproductions of Cambodian statuary (in stone):

   Umaport Dhamakija, Director
   6/79 Moo 8 Road Near Siriyalai Palace
   T. Pratuchai Ayutthaya 13000
   Mobile 01-927-4818
   Fax (6635) 231 039

The prices of the reproductions were very, very low, and I saw a wide
variety of Khmer (Hindu & Buddhist) pieces that she had recently
completed --many of her clients order large statues for a boardroom or
hotel lobby.  I think she was pleasantly surprised that I could
identify many of the gods, and also the Khmer kings, who were on
display (in simulacrum).

In any case, she does indeed deliver internationally, and this would
be a delightful purchase for a scholar passing through central
Thailand.  If you have a specific Khmer statue, lintel or _bas-relief_
that you'd like reproduced, she's happy to work from photographs
(etc.).

I rather regretted that I didn't pick up a small Buddha statue to
donate to the Forest Hermitage (or, for that matter, the Burmese rest
--both lack images) --but, alas, such a solid stone object would have
made travel by bicycle rather difficult.  Perhaps next time (if there
is a next time).

E.M.

1656 
From: nyanatusita bhikkhu <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:20pm 
Subject: Iti & ti

Could anyone give a good explanation why in Pali an anusvaara + iti becomes
dental n + ti
(e.g. caaveyyan ti)?  I was told that in some Praakrits -i + iti becomes -i
tti (similarly for a, u, e and o), but what happens in these Praakrits with
a dental n + iti ?  >  -n tti ?
Thank.


Bh. Nyanatusita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


1657 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:00pm 
Subject: Correcting the Sri Lankan lonely planet   

I excerpt the following from a recent message sent to the editors of
the Lonely Planet.  I, for one, find this hilarious.  E.M.
-------
Of your various guides to Asia, I have been the most impressed by the
Laotian manual --and I am the least impressed by the Sri Lankan.  Many
of the basic facts about Theravada Buddhist history, etc., that are
expressed in the Lao guidebook could be copied into the Sri Lankan
guide.  As it stands now, there are many problems with the latter
text.
...
All references are to the 9th edition (Sri Lanka L.P.), 2003 --by page
number & column.

...
Pg. 31, col. 1: "Strictly speaking, Buddhism is not a religion since
it is not centred on a god..."
   I rather wonder if your Lonely Planet guide to Haiti claims that
Voodoo is "not a religion" in a similar manner!  How about Taoism or
Confucianism in the Lonely Planet on China?  It is really quite
laughable to foist a Christian definition of religion on the rest of
the world; more than a billion of the earth's people identify
themselves with one of the four religions I have mentioned above that
are "not centred on a god" (i.e., Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, &
Afro-Caribbean mysticism), so I hardly feel the need to argue further
that this is a poor basis for claiming that Buddhism is "not a
religion".  However, even if your authors were to claim this, they
should then be consistent, for on pg. 33 they then describe Medieval
Sri Lanka as a "Buddhist Theocracy" --but to what god does the "Theos"
in the term "Theocracy" refer?  In any case, it is both meaningless
and offensive to state that Buddhism is not a religion; it is a method
of salvation, preached by a formal organization of monks, and
practiced as a formal moral code by millions of laypeople --if this
does not satisfy the definition of "religion", what does?

Pg. 31, col. 1: "The most recent Buddha was born ... around 563 B.C."
   The traditionally ascribed date is 624 B.C. (i.e., circa 80 years
before his death in 544 B.C.), and (setting all questions of the truth
aside) this is the date that modern Sri Lankans believe.  I must
emphatically point out that the speculative date of 560 B.C. is simply
a rough calculation based on the assumption that Ashoka was converted
218 years after the death of the Buddha --i.e., both dates are
probably wrong, but the later date has neither any special credibility
nor any practical value for travellers in Sri Lanka (as all the locals
will disagree with it).  I would guess that whatever source you've
taken 563 from (rather than 560) has made a few errors in converting
back and forth between the lunar and solar calendars; I've never read
an argument for that date specifically.

Pg. 31, col. 2: "Starting around the time of Ashoka, a schism
developed in the Buddhist world..."
   On the contrary, the schism developed a minimum of one hundred and
twenty years before Ashoka, during the reign of king Kalasoka (a.k.a.
king Kakavanna).  The latter king's name is sometimes written
Kala-Ashoka, and, resultantly, some Westerners get the name this king
confused with Ashoka; however, it is rather damning that neither your
authors nor their editors check their facts.  The schism that is
described is variously ascribed a date of circa 444 B.C. or circa 380
B.C (Ashoka's dates are all circa 262 B.C.).

Pg. 31, col. 2: "During his lifetime a political revolution was
underway.  Tribal clans were replaced with monarchies.  Legend tells
that he was a prince, but the Buddhist scriptures also portray him as
a displaced clan member unhappy with the loss of liberty under
autocratic monarchs."
   Unless your authors have been reading a lot of Sri Lankan Communist
Party pamphlets, I can hardly imagine what source they could cite for
this claim!  While there are many wierd political fictions that modern
authors assign to the Buddha (and the historical era he lived
through), I assure you that absolutely no reputable historical study
would say anything of the kind.  The simplest way to correct this
statement is simply to delete it from the next edition of the Lonely
Planet; if you'd actually like me to draft you something about
socio-political trends in India (circa 500 B.C.!) I'd be happy to
supply a short essay --but I don't know why the authors of your guide
are making such clumsy attempts at fabricating history in the first
place.  I would invite your authors (Plunkett & Ellemor) to comb
through the "Buddhist scriptures" that they so vaguely cite to find a
single passage that "portrays" the Buddha in this way --indeed, it
would be quite hilarious if they could find any passage that describes
such an historical "loss of liberty" of any kind.  Further down the
same column it is suggested that the later Buddhist monks contradicted
this early anti-monarchial teaching by giving "moral sanction to
monarchies"; this would, presumably, be an historical claim based on
the comparative reading of early and late Theravada texts?  I am very
familiar with the Pali canon, and also very familiar with some of the
modern political appropriations that can be found in India --but even
in the radical pamphlets of the "Dalit liberation" movements I have
never found such an absurd political claim as what your guide-book
suggests in this passage.

Pg. 32, col. 1: "Sri Lankan Buddhists saw that Mahayana Buddhism and
its pantheon of new Buddhas and dieties was coming to resemble
Hinduism ... and so the Sri Lankan Buddhists stuck to Theravada."
   This is the sort of "supposedly harmless" generalization that is (in
fact) completely unhistorical, false, and vaguely offensive --although
few Sinhalese would bestir themselves to contradict it.  There is not
a single historical source that states that the Theravada repudiated
the Mahayana because of its "resemblance to Hinduism"; however, we
have an e_xtremely detailed list of the reasons for this (historical)
split provided by the Kathavatthu (a text roughly dated to the time of
Ashoka), and by the accounts of the Theravada repudiation of the
Mahasanghikas in the Vinaya and the Mahavamsa.  In general, it is
offensive to suggest that Theravada orthodoxy has been defined by a
fear of "coming to resemble Hinduism"; on the contrary, the Theravada
tradition has preserved some elements of ancient Hinduism that can no
longer be found in the modern religion (e.g., Indra appears as a
satirical figure in modern Hinduism (a fat, drunken, blundering
womanizer, to be precise), a much different character from the king of
the gods found in the Pali canon or the (even earlier) Vedas).  I must
point out that the single most important difference that drove the
split between Theravada and Mahayana was the question of handling
money: the Theravada took the Buddha's monastic discipline very
seriously, and refused to touch money, amass possessions, and so on,
along with a litany of other rules and philosophical tenets that the
Kathavatthu claim the other schools disregarded; the Mahasanghika
monks took a pragmatic attitude toward "fundraising", and lived in
relative luxury --many Mahayana monks still do.  Thus, as a matter of
well attested historical fact, we should conclude that (1) the
definition of the Theravada (to the exclusion of the Mahayana) in Sri
Lanka was largely based on the greater importance assigned to monastic
discipline and orthodox readings of the Vinaya (monastic rules) along
with a miscellany of philosophical controversies (in all of which the
Theravada support their position by a very close reading of the source
texts), and (2) that definition of Theravada orthodoxy was NOT IN ANY
WAY anti-Hindu (although some modern Sinhalese authors are definitiely
anti-Hindu in the bias they bring to bear on Buddhist history!) --on
the contrary, Pali literature and Theravada orthodoxy have preserved
some elements of Hinduism that are forgotten in the Mahayana and
modern Hinduism.  Given that there is a slow-motion civil war in Sri
Lanka, some degree of extra sensitivity should be taken in writing
this sort of material.

Pg. 33, col. 1: "Sri Lankan monks later took Theravada Buddhism to
Thailand, Myanmar (Burma), Laos, Cambodia, and parts of South
Vietnam."
   There are several factual errors here.  The first is that the vague
word "later" seems to mean "later than the 10th century", as it refers
back to the timeline described in the previous paragraph.  If so, it
is a gross historical error on the part of your authors; if not, it is
a gross error of style, and the editor should have caught it on either
account.  The second problem here is that the Mon (a minority people
found primarily in Burma and Thailand) did have a tradition of
Theravada Buddhism that began independently of the Sinhalese, and that
traces its origins directly to India without Sri Lanka as an
intermediary; many Burmese and Thais claim that this tradition
pre-dates the arrival of Buddhism in Sri Lanka (on nationalistic more
than historical grounds).  The hard evidence for the debate is
provided by the Pali inscriptions from both the Mon and the Pyu (i.e.,
pre-Burmese peoples of what is now Burma) dated to circa 400 A.D.
This is more of a problem (for your authors in revising the above
passage) than you might at first imagine: in brief outline, the Mon
imparted their tradition of Theravada Buddhism (directly) to the
Burmese, Cambodians, and Thais --and probably in that order (Burma
officially appropriated Theravada Buddhism from the Mon in 1057, and
the Cambodians seem to have done the same (with fewer historical clues
left behind) during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries; the ethnic
Thais seem to have gradually followed the Cambodian trend over the
following centuries).  Because of their somewhat tenuous claim to this
"Mon heritage", both the Burmese and the Thais will tenaciously deny
that they received Theravada Buddhism "later" and "from Sri Lanka".
On a more factual note, all the evidence we have indicates that
Cambodia, etc., received their Buddhist missionaries directly from
Southern India, rather than Sri Lanka (N. Ray's detailed study points
out that all early Theravada materials in early South-East Asia are in
Pallava script, i.e., a dravidian (or "Tamil") South-Indian script,
whereas early Mahayana materials are in North-Indian orthography); in
fact, your entire introduction seems to overlook the fact that Sri
Lanka itself benefited from the waves of Buddhist missionaries that
(now Hindu) peninsular India generated for centuries, and reflects the
(biased) modern materials that try to anachronistically depict the
Tamil-Sinhalese rivalry as an "immortal" feature of the region's
religions and politics.  On the contrary, take a look at the
Nagarjunakonda inscription (3rd century A.D.), and you will see that
Southernmost India sent Buddhist missionaries to Burma, Sri Lanka, and
even China.  In any case, by the 10th century A.D., nobody in Burma
was waiting around for Buddhism to "arrive" from Sri Lanka; one way or
another, the passage should be re-written.

Pg. 34, col. 1: "... there is no unchanging soul that is reborn after
life, but a consciousness that develops and evolves spiritually until
it reaches the goal of nirvana or oneness with all."
   Although this kind of generalization may be good enough to impress a
small crowd at the YMCA in Avenel, it is not factually correct, it is
not supported by the primary source documents, and it should not have
gotten past a responsible editor.  The specific notion that "a
consciousness ... develops" from one life to the next is reufted at
length by the Buddha himself in several parts of the Theravada canon,
perhaps the most salient being the Maha-Tanha-Sankhaya-Sutta
(M.N.-1-4-6; in other words, you'll find it in the first volume of the
Majjhima Nikaya, sutta #38, if you want to look it up).  The notion of
"spiritual evolution" is quite vague, but I would nevertheless defy
anyone to substantiate this claim by finding any passage in the Pali
canon that could justify this characterization; there are certainly
Mahayana notions along these lines, but in Theravada Buddhism no human
being is more "evolved" than anyone else (and, moreover, nobody has a
"spirit" or "soul" of any kind), and, correspondingly, even an
illiterate thief or serial murderer is capable of attaining Nibbana in
this lifetime if they study the Buddha's philosophy and practice with
zeal (this is a celebrated distinction of the Theravada tradition; the
murderer who became a monk (Angulimala) is one of the best known
figures from the Suttas in modern Sri Lanka).  The second major error
here is the notion that nirvana means "oneness with all"; again, this
could be vaguely suggested in the context of Mahayana Buddhism
(although even there it is not correct; the Mahayana Philosophers
claim that opposites inter-penetrate one another, but their argument
is that Samsara is reciprocal with Nirvana, i.e., the very opposite of
the Lonely Planet's description that Nirvana is a "goal" of "oneness"
separate from mundane life) but it is really inexcusable in the
context of Sri Lankan Theravada orthodoxy.  The editors should consult
any authoritative book on the subject (e.g., Richard F. Gombrich,
1991, _Buddhist Precept and Practice_) and use an inoffensive and
adequate definition of Nirvana (and Theravada Buddhist doctrine
generally) based on those sources.  It may be asked why the Sanskrit
term "Nirvana" is being used instead of the Pali (so too for the word
"Dharma"); but I suppose this is a matter of editorial policy?

Eisel Mazard,
Vientiane, Lao P.D.R.
www.pratyeka.org/pali

1658 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:34am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti

>Could anyone give a good explanation why in Pali an anusvaara + iti becomes
>dental n + ti
>(e.g. caaveyyan ti)?  I was told that in some Praakrits -i + iti becomes -i
>tti (similarly for a, u, e and o), but what happens in these Praakrits with
>a dental n + iti ?  >  -n tti ?
>Thank.

Dear Bhante Nyanatusita,

I would guess that the reason is that iti's apostrophe form /ti/ came to be felt
as a word in its own right. As you know, often when a word ends in a short vowel
+ iti, the sandhi is final-vowel>long + ti. After hearing this often enough
users of the language could begin to experience /ti/ as an independent form that
causes lengthening of preceding vowels, instead of just the result of a sandhi.
This was certainly my experience when first learning to chant the iti pi so.
When it ends with 'buddho bhagavaa ti' I registered /ti/ as a word, and it stuck
despite later learning about the sandhi.

So the reason why anusvara > n, is simply because it is preceding the dental
consonant /t/. It's not anusvara + iti, it's simply anusvara + ti, in those
cases.

Stranger things have happened in languages. In colloquial English you can hear
expressions like 'I have to wait a whole nother year?' (sic). Here the word
'another'  (which obviously originated in an + other) is 'felt' as being
analyzed a + nother, in order to make space to insert an adverbial)

Swedish developed a new 2nd person plural pronoun /ni/ fairly recently. Up until
about a hundred years ago the pronoun was /i/, and verb forms using it ended in
-en.

S compare: vill du... (would you like to...)
villen i... (would you guys like to...)

The final n of /villen/ came to be felt as being part of a new word /ni/ so the
modern form is:

vill ni...

I'm not 100% sure that this is the correct explanation, but it wouldn't surprise
me.

best regards,

/Rett

1659 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Feb 16, 2006 0:49pm 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti

Dear Rett,

Thanks for the nice and detailed answer regarding iti. A similar
explanation is given by Geiger, but I was wondering if there were other
ones. I can not think of a similar example in Dutch. (In Dutch the 2nd
person plural pronoun is julie (pronounced julii) and villen i = willen
julie. Vill du  = Wil jij.)

I still hope to get an answer with regards similar developments in Prakrits.

Regards,
                     Bh. Nyanatusita

> I would guess that the reason is that iti's apostrophe form /ti/ came to be
felt as a word in its own right. As you know, often when a word ends in a short
vowel + iti, the sandhi is final-vowel>long + ti. After hearing this often
enough users of the language could begin to experience /ti/ as an independent

1660 
From: Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:40am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti     

I'm sorry to say that I don't see anything subtle about the problem:
If you wanted to put in long hours of research, you could scan the
Gatha literature for an example of _nti_ that breaks the metre, i.e.,
demonstrating that an earlier revision of the poem once had (the
Prakritic) _itti_, but was supplanted.

Although I see your point that the Prakritic reduplication (retaining
the vowel) would also be possible in Pali, this is the sort of thing
that seems to have been eliminated from the canon (if ever it was once
there) in subsequent rounds of standardization (and Sanskritization)
of the text.

Following standard (Pali) rules of euphony, the "i" is omitted, and,
resultantly, anuswara matches the consonant class of the "t" --the
only place I would expect to find anything else is Senart's horrible
transcription of Kacc., where all the euphony/crasis is undone for the
sake of clarity.

E.M.

1661 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:08am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti

Dear Bhante Nyanatusita, Eizel and group,

Interesting and informative discussions, thanks. As usual, my questions are more
at the student level.

Eizel wrote:
> you could scan the
>Gatha literature for an example of _nti_ that breaks the metre, i.e.,
>demonstrating that an earlier revision of the poem once had (the
>Prakritic) _itti_, but was supplanted.

Could you explain this a bit more? I see the above as combining two separate
issues, but it could just be because of my meagre knowledge of prakrit:

1) anusvara + iti > nti
2) vowel + iti >  (V)-tti

How could a case of /itti/ ever develop into /nti/ ? They originate from
different types of situations. Ex. pali < (pkt) < Skrt:

1) ruupan ti < ruupa.m iti
2) bhagavaa ti < bhagava tti < bhagavaan iti.


>Following standard (Pali) rules of euphony, the "i" is omitted, and,
>resultantly, anuswara matches the consonant class of the "t"

Yes, you can use those two Kacc. rules in succession, but I don't see this as
necessarily answering the question. Aren't the rules in Kacc part of what needs
to be explained? Aren't they an after-the-fact description of the phenomenon at
hand, not a complete developmental explanation?

So the question would be whether the successive application of those two Kacc
rules (1. ellision of initial vowel after anusvara, 2. anusvara shifts to nasal
of following-consonant's class) maps the actual phonetic development. It might
do so in this case, but that still might not be the whole story.

For example, perhaps part of the reason for the loss of the intial short-i in
iti was due to its being an unaccented syllable. (Pischel 143). AFAIK accent
isn't mentioned in Kacc (please correct me if I'm wrong).

It's interesting that you bring up the possibility that there are orthographical
considerations involved that run their own course apart from issues of real-life
pronounciation. It's probably prudent to check this angle as well.

best regards,

/Rett

1662 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:39am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti

Hi again,

> I was told that in some Praakrits -i + iti becomes -i
>tti (similarly for a, u, e and o), but what happens in these Praakrits with
>a dental n + iti ?  >  -n tti ?

Going back to the original question, I've been looking through Woolner's Intro
to Prakrit and noticed a couple of things that might help.

1) I don't think you're likely to have a situation: dental n + iti. The prakrits
don't like final consonants. A final -n would automatically become anusvara. 
(29)

2) Woolner gives the simple rule (without further explanation): "iti after
anusvara becomes, ti, after vowels tti." (74)

So Eisel's explanation based on Kacc is looking more and more correct to me.
Anusvara causes elision of the unaccented intial /i/ in iti, and then goes to
the nasal of the following consonant.

The Pali rules seem to coincide with the Prakrit rules as far as the
niggahitasandhi is concerned here.

best regards,

/Rett

1663 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:11am 
Subject: SV: Iti & ti     

There is obviously a difference of treatment of iti initially and in final
position of a clause, in which case it would seem to behave like an enclitic
particle with the attested diferences of prosodical treatment e.g. elision
of initial /i/; and nasality and dentality are mutually exclusive in Pali so
it seems, hence phrases like abhinandun ti. The treatment of iti is peculiar
in other respects especially before eva. One would expect t'eva (I hope
Eisel will accept this "horrible" transcription for the sake of clarity).
However, one finds almost invariably tv'eva, which is considered wrong.
Admittedly, it is not found in all ms.s. On the other hand, why would
innumerable scribes and copyists introduce this writing? It is already known
to Sinhalese Pali grammarians of ca. 10th c. AD, so we cannot blame the
Burmese for it. The reason, if any, must be phonetic.

OP


I'm sorry to say that I don't see anything subtle about the problem:
If you wanted to put in long hours of research, you could scan the Gatha
literature for an example of _nti_ that breaks the metre, i.e.,
demonstrating that an earlier revision of the poem once had (the
Prakritic) _itti_, but was supplanted.

Although I see your point that the Prakritic reduplication (retaining the
vowel) would also be possible in Pali, this is the sort of thing that seems
to have been eliminated from the canon (if ever it was once
there) in subsequent rounds of standardization (and Sanskritization) of the
text.

Following standard (Pali) rules of euphony, the "i" is omitted, and,
resultantly, anuswara matches the consonant class of the "t" --the only
place I would expect to find anything else is Senart's horrible
transcription of Kacc., where all the euphony/crasis is undone for the sake
of clarity.

E.M.

1664 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Feb 18, 2006 0:46am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti     

Although I would agree (in theory) with Dr. Pind's suggestion that
_'ti_ sometimes behaves like an enclitic particle (and sometimes does
not) I must observe that this is the kind of fine (theoretical)
distinction that was probably not understood for two thousand years of
imperfect transmission (if ever).

In general, I think this issue has already been "sufficiently
explained", but we could further raise the spectre (insisted upon by
K.R. Norman) that Pali orthography passed through a period (of several
centuries) in which double consonants were simply written as
(undistinguished) single consonants --similar to the pre-Ashokan
orthography in early Sinhalese inscriptions (and not much different
from Ashoka's own).

Thus, the "muddled" picture that emerges from the observations that
Rett & Pind have adduced was probably even more muddled at some point
in the distant past --and a "spelling reform" was implemented that
solved one problem and produced another so far as anything with the
sequence "-tti" is concerned.

So... is the sequence "tveva" a phonetic mutation in principle (as
Pind proposes), or is it one part of the solution to the mixed history
in which a more prakritic _itti_ once played a part, but was masked
and unmasked by a sequence of orthographic reforms?  The answer may
well be "both"; in the absence of any direct evidence (i.e., without
seeking it out in the texts) I would simply suggest that the picture
is (and must remain) muddled.

E.M.

1665 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:40am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti

Hi Eisel and group,

>Although I would agree (in theory) with Dr. Pind's suggestion that
>_'ti_ sometimes behaves like an enclitic particle (and sometimes does
>not) I must observe that this is the kind of fine (theoretical)
>distinction that was probably not understood for two thousand years of
imperfect transmission (if ever).

I would think that these sorts of 'fine distinctions' are the bread and butter
of ordinary language use, and that they are routinely employed by language users
apart from whether or not they are consciously aware of them.

It's easy enough to find examples of this in Pali. For instance the present
tense is used in narrative prose in the sense of the past (historical present),
but only to express repeated or ongoing actions, or general states of affairs.
Never to express a single completed action that took place in the past. For that
the text switches to finite past tense forms or past participles. (a similar
pattern can be observed in the Sanskrit Hitopadesa, I believe). AFAIK this is
the case both in canonical prose and in commentarial narratives such as the
Dhammapadaat.thakathaa. Yet is this distinction theoretically described in the
grammars? I don't know of it being so (though I'd be very interested in hearing
about it if it is described somewhere in the vyakarana literature).

In any case, this 'fine distinction' appears to have been learned, used and
understood unconsciously by good writers of Pali, entirely apart from what they
could learn from studying grammar books. They must have either picked it up from
reading models of good prose, or carried it over from other languages (sanskrit
or their vernaculars).


> the mixed history
>in which a more prakritic _itti_ once played a part,

I still don't understand how anything we have seen so far implies that there
ever was a prakritic form _itti_ of the word _iti_. There could have been an /-i
tti/, equivalent to /-a tii/, /-e tti/, /-u tti/ and so forth.

From the discussion so far and what I've found in Woolner and Pischel it appears
that the prakritic /tti/ arose from a situation where the initial /i/ in iti is
elided because the preceding word ends in a vowel. If initial unaccented vowels
are elided after the final vowel of a preceding word two things typically happen
to preserve metrical length. Either the final vowel of the preceding word is
lengthened (as with Pali /ti/), or the vowel remains short but the following
consonant is doubled (as in Prakrit /tti/). These are just basically equivalent
accomadations, and they don't require the previous existence of a full form
/itti/ in order to occur. Please correct me if this is mistaken.


best regards,

/Rett

1666 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:12am 
Subject: SV: Iti & ti     

<I still don't understand how anything we have seen so far implies that
there ever was a prakritic form _itti_ of the word _iti_. There could have
been an /-i tti/, equivalent to /-a tii/, /-e tti/, /-u tti/ and so forth.

From the discussion so far and what I've found in Woolner and Pischel it
appears that the prakritic /tti/ arose from a situation where the initial
/i/ in iti is elided because the preceding word ends in a vowel. If initial
unaccented vowels are elided after the final vowel of a preceding word two
things typically happen to preserve metrical length. Either the final vowel
of the preceding word is lengthened (as with Pali /ti/), or the vowel
remains short but the following consonant is doubled (as in Prakrit /tti/).
These are just basically equivalent accomadations, and they don't require
the previous existence of a full form /itti/ in order to occur. Please
correct me if this is mistaken.>

I agree. The distinctions are really no more than two ways of representing
in writing the same prosodical rule: vowel + tti is prosodically long becaue
of the doubling of /tt/ as is long vowel + ti.


OP

1667 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:53pm 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti     

Hi Rett,

> I would think that these sorts of 'fine distinctions' are the bread and butter
of ordinary language use...
> It's easy enough to find examples of this in Pali. For instance the present
tense is used in narrative prose ...

I think that a linguist with your training would agree that this is a
wildly spurious example to demonstrate a tenuously related point
--however inherently interesting the expression of historical
narrative voice may be.  My claim was only that there was not a
theoretical awareness of the distinction (re: the inconsistently
enclitic status of "iti"); I rather presupposed that you (and
everyone) already accepted that there are lingual distinctions (in
praxis) that are not articulated in theory --and what we were
discussing was but one such example.  However, when & where this is
the case, we can't infer very much from errors and inconsistencies
(Pali studies have a long history of drawing wild conclusions from
minor variations in spelling and syntax ... witness the drama of
"Magadhisms" in the AP:Kv, etc.) --and I was simply cautioning the
readers of the list that the behaviour of (enclitic) _'ti_ described
could not be readily parlayed into an "historically descriptive model"
(to paraphrase your earlier query, Rett).

>. AFAIK this is the case both in canonical prose and in commentarial
narratives such as the Dhammapadaat.thakathaa.

I truly hope that "AFAIK" is a loan-word from Avestan, as I cannot
find it in the index to Pischel.

(That was a joke)

> From the discussion so far and what I've found in Woolner and Pischel it
appears that the prakritic /tti/ arose from a situation where the initial /i/ in
iti is elided because the preceding word ends in a vowel. If initial unaccented
vowels are elided after the final vowel of a preceding word two things typically
happen to preserve metrical length. Either the final vowel of the preceding word
is lengthened (as with Pali /ti/), or the vowel remains short but the following
consonant is doubled (as in Prakrit /tti/).

Thus the ambiguity: given that early written Pali did not distinguish
double consonants or long vowels in its orthography, "iiti" vs. "itti"
may well have been resolved in subsequent spelling reforms, i.e., the
amendment of the canon to suit the new orthography.  Thus, like K.R.
Norman's example of "Brahma" vs. "Bahama" we may have a case of a
deleted Prakritic element of the language in the reduplication of "t"
in "itti".

I had rather thought that the point of Bhante Nyanatusita's initial
query was to point out the strangeness of the Pali usage of the
particle relative to what we know about the Prakrit --and this seems
to me to be some small part of the explanation.

I agree that this is "no big deal", and my previous two messages began
with the statement that I thought sufficient had been said about the
issue already; thus, I agree with Rett & Pind now that there is little
more that can/should be said.

E.M.

1668 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:27am 
Subject: Re: Iti & ti

Hi,

>
>Thus the ambiguity: given that early written Pali did not distinguish
>double consonants or long vowels in its orthography, "iiti" vs. "itti"
>may well have been resolved in subsequent spelling reforms, i.e., the
>amendment of the canon to suit the new orthography.

How does this apply to the case where the word preceding iti ends in an
anusvara? That's what I still don't understand.

best regards,

/Rett

1669 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:55am 
Subject: SV: Iti & ti     

<Thus, like K.R. Norman's example of "Brahma" vs. "Bahama" we may have a
case of a deleted Prakritic element of the language in the reduplication of
"t" in "itti">

The example of Pali brah- vs Ashokan bah- is often adduced as an example of
a Sanskritism on the assumption that Pali necessarily must reflect other
similar or historically close Prakrit(s). I beg to disagree. A look into a
Pali dictionary shows that Pali does not disallow the cluster /br/ (e.g.
bruusi, abravi etc.), whereas the language disallows the cluster /pr/. The
evidence is overwhelming and the distribution systematic. On the other hand,
Pali disallows the cluster /bhr/(e.g. bhuunahu/ha[cf. Sanskrit
bhruu.nagha]). In the first case the sonant labial /b/ and the liquid
continuant /r/ are not phonetically exclusive in contrast to surd /p/ and
/r/. The reason why Pali disallows /bhr/ is undoubtedly because aspiration
and /r/ are mutually exclusive. Those who assume that the early compilers
and later generations introduced Sanskritisms like brah-/braah- should
explain why /r/ is regularly elided from the cluster /pr/ but not from /br/.
Clearly the onus is on them.

Regards,
OP

1670 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:33am 
Subject: SV: Iti & ti     

<Thus the ambiguity: given that early written Pali did not distinguish
double consonants or long vowels in its orthography, "iiti" vs. "itti"
may well have been resolved in subsequent spelling reforms, i.e., the
amendment of the canon to suit the new orthography.>

I think that there is sufficient evidence to show that the writing system
used by those Buddhists who wrote down the canon included the reproduction
of geminate consonants. In fact, geminate consonants are responsible for
lowering a preceding vowel, cf. e.g. the writing Vaase.ttha that is derived
from Vaashi.s.ta in Sanskrit. Kaccaayana has Vaasi.ttha, evidently a
Sanskritism that never influenced the transmission of the canon. There are
other examples: pokkhaarinii < pu.skari.nii and so on. Paatimokkha <
*praatimukhya (I regret to say, this is how I interpret this much discussed
term). Another important example is bhaddante often written bhadante,
especially in the Sinhalese tradition (influence from Buddhist Sanskrit
bhadanta?. However, the voc. bhaddanta evidently presupposes bhaddante,
which appears to have been better preserved in the burmese tradition. I do
not think that the Burmese invented this spelling, which only occurs in
verse and initially in prose. I's an emphatic form, the enclitic version is,
of course, bhante.

Regards,
OP

1671 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:14am 
Subject: /bhr/ vs. /br/ (not iti)   

Dr. Pind,

> The example of Pali brah- vs Ashokan bah- is often adduced as an example of
> a Sanskritism on the assumption that Pali necessarily must reflect other
> similar or historically close Prakrit(s).

It need not be called a "Sanskritism" for the observation to hold: it
can instead be styled a Palicism, and nevertheless represents a
departure from the Prakrit form --and this is precisely the point,
whatever we may call it.  That some parts of the Pali canon were (and
are) more prakritic (or more dialectical) than others is beyond
dispute; in part this is for similar reasons to the fact that some
passages of Shakespeare are more vernacular than others, but it partly
reflects attempts at standardization the the canon underwent --likely
co-inciding with the re-organization of Angas into Nikayas, and then
the original Nikayas into the form we find now "sealed" by the
commentaries, etc.  Some reforms may have been quite late, as per our
earlier discussion of the Cambodian usage of -b- and -bb- where the
Sinhalese have -v- or -vv- (a phenomenon observed again in the
earliest extant Pali inscriptions in Cambodia --Skilling had an
article on this in the JPTS that I was able to read at Nyanatusita's
hermitage).

To speak directly to the point you have raised: I *do not* assume that
Pali must have originally reflected "other similiar" Prakrits.  It may
be that other scholars assume this; my own assumption is simply that
the Pali canon was more (lingually) heterogenous prior to the cycles
of standardization that were carried out upon it --and still, some
passages (such as the quotations from heterodox philosophers) retain
prakritic and dialectical variations.  I think that some passages
--especially quotations from informal speech-- probably have become
formalized relative to a Pali grammatical standard.  The very
existence of the Dhammapada in the Pali canon demonstrates that
Theravada monks were quite able and willing to "translate" Prakrit
into Pali --and it may be that a significant portion of materials were
incorporated in this way (and underwent degrees of lingual
standardization before, after, or during canonization).  Does this
Pali standardization always entail "Sanskritization"?  No, I wouldn't
assume that in all cases; however, to detect (e.g.) "Dravidianization"
would require a knowledge of Dravidian languages that almost nobody in
Pali studies seems to have --a comparative reading of certain KN texts
with early Shaivite works (in "barbaric Sanskrit") might reveal all
kinds of interesting connections that have been hitherto invisible,
while western scholars have been more easily able to observe (e.g.)
Vedic elements in the language of the Sutta-Nipata.  Comparative work
with Jain Prakrit sources remains at a very preliminary stage; who
knows if Shaivite pseudo-Sanskrit will shed any light on the Pali
canon within my lifetime.

> A look into a
> Pali dictionary shows that Pali does not disallow the cluster /br/ (e.g.
> bruusi, abravi etc.), whereas the language disallows the cluster /pr/. The
> evidence is overwhelming and the distribution systematic.

This observation DOES NOT answer to the metrical argument that "br-"
has replaced "ba" in some Pali verses; obversely, the fact that some
Pali verses could have been translated from Prakrit (or, as in the
case of the Dhammapada, definitely were translated) or were subject to
"Palicization" does not diminish the significance of your point.  I
never said that "Br-" was disallowed in Pali; what I said was that the
evidence suggested it was *preferred* by whoever carried out spelling
revisions --and that it was thus considered "more Palic", although we
may by the same token say it is "less Prakritic".

> On the other hand,
> Pali disallows the cluster /bhr/ ...
> undoubtedly because aspiration
> and /r/ are mutually exclusive.

I would just like to say that I am extremely glad that Pali does just
this, and removes many clusters that would (in our era) be impossible
to pronounce for anyone but the Cambodians.  They alone can handle
initial clusters of (up to) four consonants unmitigated by vowel
sounds.

> Those who assume that the early compilers
> and later generations introduced Sanskritisms like brah-/braah- should
> explain why /r/ is regularly elided from the cluster /pr/ but not from /br/.
> Clearly the onus is on them.

As I hope you will have gathered from all that I've said above, the
significance of the argument certainly does *not* stand-or-fall on
this point.

The premise is simply that "some verses formerly had ba- and now have
br-", and this may indicate the dialect of the source, or a type of
heterogenous lingual variation that has been largely deleted from the
canon.  K.R. Norman's explanation as to why "br-" was important to
standardize in this instance was simply because the word Brahma is of
such unique importance in the debate over religion that defines the
content of so much of the canon; there is no reason why "the onus"
would be upon K.R. Norman to explain why all instances of "pr-" do not
have the unique importance of "Br-" in Brahma.  He remarks himself
that this may be a special case, as a critique of Brahmanic authority
is not of much value if the people being critiqued do not recognise
themselves as the subject of the indictment.  Brahmins did not call
themselves "Bahama"; and, I might add to Norman's comment (which
assumes that the Brahmins are all external to the Sangha) the Brahmins
who became monks may well have found it odd for this particular
(hallowed) proper name to be pronounced so differently from the Vedas
they were accustomed to.

Phonology alone is powerless against lingual changes that are, thus,
closely related to content; the changes and inconsistencies in
Toponyms often have similar problems of historical change and
revision.

E.M.

1672 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:30am 
Subject: Earliest Pali Orthography & its implications   

> I think that there is sufficient evidence to show that the writing system
> used by those Buddhists who wrote down the canon included the reproduction
> of geminate consonants. In fact, geminate consonants are responsible for
> lowering a preceding vowel ...

It is very strange that you assert the latter is a proof of the
former.  Not all writing systems are phonetically accurate or even
lexically adequate; on the contrary, almost all of the world's writing
systems are full of imperfections that both confound many different
sounds, and many different meanings, with only a limited set of
symbols.  The evidence that Pali passed through a period of
phonetically imperfect orthography (similar to what we find on over
1,300 cave walls in Sri Lanka) *does not* entail that the actual
pronounciation or understanding of the words omitted (e.g.) the
distinction between ttha, ttta, ta, taa, ttaa, etc.

The fact that many of such geminate clusters were all represented by
only a few symbols (without sufficient accuracy/variation) would be no
more confusing to a reader/speaker than the huge range of phonetic
values that English consonants are expected to represent (without
sufficient accuracy/variation).

Most European languages that have had the Roman script foisted upon
them have a massive gap between orthography and phonetic reality
(thus, many words that would seem to rhyme in writing do not do so in
speech, and vice-versa; an easy-to-understand proof of the matter, for
those who do not have degrees in linguistics); there is no reason to
suppose that this sort of orthographic limitation presented any great
challenge to the transmission of the Pali canon.

I find the evidence that Pali had a period of "imperfect" orthography
prior to the current system compelling; but, in any case, the points
you raise (although interesting) say nothing against it.

> Kaccaayana has Vaasi.ttha, evidently a
> Sanskritism that never influenced the transmission of the canon.

I will indeed make a note of that.

> ... bhaddante,
> which appears to have been better preserved in the burmese tradition. I do
> not think that the Burmese invented this spelling, which only occurs in
> verse and initially in prose.

This further example of reduplication of a consonant is being
preserved in one textual tradition, and lost/eliminated in another,
would seem to weigh in favour of my own view of both this and the
other issue under current discussion.

E.M.

1673 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 0:20am 
Subject: Pali-Lao Dictionary (2004)      

To my amazement, I discovered (yesterday) that a Pali-Lao dictionary
exists --and was published in 2004.

As per the simile of the dancing bear, it is not a question of how
well it dances, but the fact that it dances at all, i.e., the quality
of the work is quite irrelevant to the impression it makes upon me
--as I am impressed that the work has been done at all.

Sadly, this lexicon represents an even further step toward simplified
orthography: it uses modern lao with "diacritical dots" beneath the
glyphs --abandoning even the mixed system in use circa 1975, that
employed about a half-dozen Khmeresque glyphs for sounds not found in
modern (Lao) vernacular (e.g., jh, dh, etc.).

The standard followed in this text puts a dot beneath "g" to create
"gh", but has a dot beneath "s" to create "ch", and uses the same dot
to create retroflexes from dentals.  This is likely to throw the state
of Lao phonology and philology into even further confusion.

I can only say that this makes the development of a (Unicode) standard
for computing in classical Lao-Dhamma script all the more urgent;
although classical Burmese or classical Khom will serve as well in the
interim (I have never seen a book in Laos typeset in either of the
latter scripts...).

E.M.


1674 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:36pm 
Subject: Test the New Digital Pali Reader     

Dear Friends,

The Digital Pali Reader is now up in a new, revised and easier to use
form.  Please take the time to try it out, if you are interested in this
sort of project.  Please note that the reader itself is crippled without
the PED and DPPN files on the local computer.  All of these files are on
the IBC web server, but I am concerned about advertising their location
publicly due to potential copyright infringements.  It is easy to get
them yourself - just email me and I can explain how.  The reader itself
(without the PED and DPPN files) can be found at:

http://pali.fivethousandyears.org/DPR.zip

Just download the zip file, extract it to the desktop (or elsewhere),
and open the directory "DPR" that it creates and open index.html (using
Firefox Web Browser).


Here is an explanation of the script:

Notes:

    1. The reader was created for my own personal use, but anyone is
welcome to use what I have made for their own benefit or the benefit of
others. I would appreciate if no monetary profit was made off of the reader.
    2. The reader only works on Firefox web browser (version 1.5),
AFAIK.  I will try to look into why that may be in the near future.  For
now, consider downloading Firefox.  It is a nice browser, and you can
still run whatever browser you normally use as well.  Firefox can be
found at www.mozilla.com
    3. Many of the words 'recognized' by the reader are still incorrectly
so.  Please bear with me as I correct them as I have time.

What is it?

The Digital Pali Reader (DPR) is a tool, much like a book-format reader
used in learning a new language, that facilitates learning the Pali
language at an advanced level.  Rather than offering a translation for
the text being read, a reader usually includes a dictionary with all of
the difficult words found in the reader.  The DPR differs from an
ordinary reader in several respects:

    1. The DPR allows for instant lookup of words, simply by clicking on
a word in the passage at hand.  This avoids time spent looking for the
word in a hard-copy dictionary or in another place on the computer.
    2. The dictionary files in the DPR were not designed specifically for
the purpose at hand, and of course sometimes are incorrect based on
imperfect analysis.
    3. The DPR is designed for use with three dictionaries - the CPED of
Buddhadatta, the PED of the PTS, and the DPPN.  Use of the PED and DPPN
requires having the dictionary files local on your computer; these files
have not been included due to copyright purposes (please write to me if
you would benefit from having the PED and DPPN on your computer).

While the DPR is far from perfect, it is sure to be useful for
intermediate Pali students who wish to advance their studies to a higher
level.

How to Use:

    1. The right side of the screen contains the main controls.  It is
mostly self-explanatory.  At the top, there is the list of books and
sub-sections for each book.  Below all of that, there are some buttons,
for initiating the script ("Go"), calling up the original velthius from
the XML file ("xml"), and two previous ("<") and next (">") buttons.
Below that, there is a manual word search, and some links to various
resources, including this help file.

    2. Once you get a paragraph up, you just read through it and click on
any word to bring up an analysis of the word and hopefully at least one
(and hopefully correct) definition from one of the three dictionaries.

    3. The analysis may contain any one of  several strange looking
things as follows:
       i) words in parentheses are alternative compound matches.  For
instance, subhaava comes out as: subha-ava (su-bhaava).  In this case
the second option (su-bhaava) is obviously correct.
       ii) passages in {} are alternative readings to the accepted
Burmese readings.
       iii) numbers under a word denote alternative matches or multiple
definitions.  an 'n' under a word signifies an alternative name match
from the DPPN.
       iv) the definitions are colour-coded.  A yellow word has a match
in the PED, a green word in the DPPN, and a yellow word in the CPED.
       v) the short defintions on the right of the center frame are from
the CPED, and those in the bottom frame are from the PED or DPPN.

    4. There is a scratchpad at the bottom of the screen, just grab the
bottom edge of the bottom left frame and pull up.  There is also a
Velthius to Unicode converter below the scratch pad.

Final Words:

     1. Please write to me with errors, bugs, etc.  My email is
yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org

     2. Please check the Pali forum at E-sangha.com for updates.

Best wishes and thanks for taking the time to try the script,

Yuttadhammo

February 22, 2006 C.E.

1675 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:24pm 
Subject: Arakan, from Eisel    

Bhante,

   A few weeks ago I read the article on Arakanese Buddhism (and its
connection to Sinhalese Buddhist revivals) contained in that issue of
the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society (of Sri Lanka).

   As I know I left you with a copy of the same publication, I was
wondering what your latest thoughts were on the subject?

   I know you're very busy, but I also know this is a special research
interest of yours; the 18th & 19th century political history of that
region is truly baffling, and it has come up in some of my recent
reading on the history of the region --one wonders how this served to
preserve or destroy Buddhism in Arakan's recent history.

   It seems to me that this would have been discussed by Niharranjan
Ray in some of his works (somewhere) --this is the same N. Ray who
wrote your book on Sanskrit Buddhism in Burma (and also wrote a very
good general history of Buddhism in Burma) --perhaps he had an article
dealing with Arakan specifically in some obscure publication?  His own
interest seems to have been primarily in comparing Burmese & Mon
Buddhism (and this is the interaction that proved definitive for
Buddhism in the region as we have it today) --he could actually read
Mon --but I think the questions you've raised of the connections to
Chittagong are doubtless very important, and likely very much
neglected.

   Perhaps you or I should write a carefully worded request for
information on this to the SOAS Bulletin of Burmese studies?  They
might have a bibliography of the field that they could search for
salient articles.

E.M.

1676 
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk> 
Date: Sun Mar 5, 2006 3:30pm 
Subject: khajjuuri

Dear Ole,

Not strictly a Pali problem, but you are probably the most likely person
here to be able to answer this.  I am trying to reconstruct a word --
actually a name -- from Tibetan and Chinese sources.  The Tibetan indicates
that the word, if the base text was Sanskrit, would have been "kharjuuri",
while the Chinese seems to have had some form of Prakrit yeilding "khayuuri"
or "khayyuuri".  Is this feasible -- I assume something like "kharjuuri" ->
"khajjuuri" -> "khayyuuri" ?  There is other textual evidence that the text
in question was from central west or central south India c.150CE.  Any idea
what sort of Prakrit might have been involved -- I think I have seen this
kind of sound change in Ardha-magadhi.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

1677 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 9:21am 
Subject: SV: khajjuuri    

Dear Stephen,

The proposed sound change is definitely Prakritic, although in principle I
would hesitate about identifying it as Ardha-magadhi. Pischel's grammar is
unortunately a hopeless mess: one has to spend hours on extracting anything
from it that makes linguistic sense. By the way, does the context justify
the reconstruction in terms of semantics?

Best wishes,
Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Stephen Hodge
Sendt: 5. marts 2006 21:31
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] khajjuuri

Dear Ole,

Not strictly a Pali problem, but you are probably the most likely person
here to be able to answer this.  I am trying to reconstruct a word --
actually a name -- from Tibetan and Chinese sources.  The Tibetan indicates
that the word, if the base text was Sanskrit, would have been "kharjuuri",
while the Chinese seems to have had some form of Prakrit yeilding "khayuuri"
or "khayyuuri".  Is this feasible -- I assume something like "kharjuuri" ->
"khajjuuri" -> "khayyuuri" ?  There is other textual evidence that the text
in question was from central west or central south India c.150CE.  Any idea
what sort of Prakrit might have been involved -- I think I have seen this
kind of sound change in Ardha-magadhi.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

1678 
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk> 
Date: Tue Mar 7, 2006 1:46pm 
Subject: Re: khajjuuri

Dear Ole,

Thank you for your reply.

> By the way, does the context justify
> the reconstruction in terms of semantics?

There are two parallel texts, one Chinese and one Tibetan.  The Tibetan
gives a standard translation for *kharjuuri and the Chinese has the
transcription of a Prakrit form.  The reason why I wondered about an
Ardha-magadhi connection is because the word is given as a gotra name for a
family in Saurashtra c150CE.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

1679 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 2:34am 
Subject: Cambodia 1973-6 

A very brief note, as it is wildly tangental to the purpose of the
list, but came up before:

In my discussion (on this list) about the timeline of U.S. Support for
the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia (with Rett), he reproached me on the
grounds that I suggested the U.S. supported Pol Pot prior to the
massacres, whereas he supposed their support for the Khmer Rouge began
later (circa 1976-9?).

I have just found the most direct affirmation possible for my belief
that U.S. support for the Khmer Rouge pre-dated 1975, viz. the written
testimony of Richard Millhouse Nixon himself.  As I had rather
speculated, the U.S.-China compact on Cambodia (viz., mutually
supporting Pol Pot as a kind of proxy in the evolving hostilities
between China and the Soviet Union) was settled in 1973 ("mid-June"
according to Nixon) --as I have already remarked, this proved to be a
remarkably durable arrangement, with American support for Pol Pot
continuing until after 1992.

The identification of the origin of the policy (from the American
perspective) in Kissinger's "secret" talks (actually pretty well
publicized) with China in 1973 certainly makes a lot of sense, and, as
Sihanouk was in Beijing at that time, the Americans were afforded the
rather strange excuse that they were supporting Pol Pot in order to
restore Sihanouk to power (although, N.B., it was the Americans
themselves who had supported the coup that deposed Sihanouk and
installed Lon Nol just a few years earlier).   The transparency of the
united front between the Khmer Rouge and the Royalists was to be
revealed in dramatic fashion in 1975; but U.S. support for Pol Pot did
not change.

E.M.

1680 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Mar 18, 2006 0:05am 
Subject: Pali-Burmese Phonology & Orthography      

Below, I provide firstly (in brief) bullet-point observations on how
Pali is pronounced/recited by the Burmese.  This is planned as part of
a relatively verbose overview of how Pali phonology & orthography are
very much intertwined in praxis --i.e., comparing "Burmanized Pali" to
"Laoicized Pali", "Thaicized Pali", "SInhalized Pali", etc.

The observations are largely owed to a set of recordings I was
provided with in Sri Lanka (by Ken & Vishakha); I do not know any
Burmese monks here in Vientiane.

Any feedback or controversy will be welcome, E.M.
--------------
[...]
The Burmese pronunciation of Pali can be summed up in two aspects: the
fairly consistent consonant-substitutions, and the inconsistent,
context-sensitive vowel changes.

The consonant substitutions will not present any special difficulties
for the student, as they are perfectly arbitrary, and therfore make
perfect sense:

     * The Pali "c" is pronounced as "s" (& "ch" becomes "sh").
     * The Pali "j" is pronounced as "z" (& "jh" becomes "zh").
           * I note there is a nice coincidence here, as it may well
have been that 2,500 years ago the Pali "j" was pronounced as "z"; I
believe K.R. Norman suggested this on the evidence of comparing
Avestan to Vedic, and the earliest extant transliterations of Pali and
Prakrit words into Greek.
     * The Pali "p" is pronounced as "b"; there may yet be some audible
distinction from the the Pali "b" proper, but I am oblivious to it.
Geminates involving "b", "p" and their aspirates seem to be
mutually-indistinguishable.
     * The Pali "r" is inconsistently pronounced as "y". It may be that
sometimes an initial "r" is sounded out as "r", but a medial
(especially subscript) "r" seems inescapably consigned to being
reduced to a "y" sound.
     * The Pali "s" is normally pronounced as "t" or "d" (exceptionally
as "g", explained below). Most official sources seem report this as a
"t" sound only, but I most often hear "d"; it may be that I am
oblivious to some very fine distinction that sets this sound apart
from a proper "d" in the Burmese imagination.
           * The Pali "ss" is often pronounced like a "g"; the Burmese
seem to read this as a single, unique consonant sound, rather than a
double sibilant (F. Mason remarked on this, too, but in unclear
terms). This would be less confusing were the error absolute; but one
can still hear this as a double "s" sound from time to time.
           * Even the (single) initial Pali "s" is sometimes spoken as
"g" sound, especially where it follows after a complex sound/glyph,
such as a velar-n compound. In the recordings, words starting with
"Sam-" are frequently indistinguishable from "Gam-", and this seems
almost to be a form of vernacular euphony, following on the final
(anuswara) sound of the prior word.
     * It is needless to say that the Burmese rules for the
simplification of a final consonant sound could be erronenously
applied to a medial Pali consonant, but I have found this to be very
rare in the Burmese recordings, most likely because the Burmese/Mon
script so clearly shows the difference between a medial and final
consonant (whereas modern Thai script does not) --and a competent Pali
reader should be aware that the language has no final consonants
except the anuswara. I would expect that more errors of this kind are
made where the reader relies on a text in simplified modern script
that uses the "Thating" (Hal Akuru) as a substitute for the classical
ligatures and stacked glyphs (this sort of simplification is the
exception, rather than the rule, in Burmese editions of Pali texts, I
am pleased to say).

The vowel changes are inconsistent in that they arise from the
context, and follow the tendency (common to Burmese & Tibetan) of
eliding complex sequences of sounds; the logic of these
simplifications is internal to the modern language, and applied
inconsistently to the classical. In several recordings made of one and
the same Burmese monk chanting Pali, he will make some vowel errors
consistently in some suttas, but then not make the error even once in
reciting another sutta, likely reflecting that he learned them from
different masters. Initial and final vowels tend to be preserved, but
the medial vowels are transformed most adventitiously; of these, the
most striking are:

     * The Pali short "a" is pronounced as an "i"; especially when
interpreting the implicit vowel adjacent to a geminate (i.e., before
or after a geminate) or in any syllable involving the letter "c" (the
latter is, recall, itself mispronounced as "s"). The pronunciation of
"paccayo" as "pissiyo", and "gacchaami" as "gissami" are frequent
examples.
     * Both the Pali short "a" and the short "i" are sometimes
pronounced as a hard "e" sound; this seems to be most often the case
prior to a geminate, and does not seem to be directly determined by
the medial vowel's antecedent consonant.
           * The sequence "yi" is also very frequently spoken as a hard
"ye" sound.
     * The Pali short "a" is sometimes inserted between compound
consonants where there is none to be found in the text (e.g.,
"tasmi.m" read aloud as "tasami.m"; perhaps an especially significant
example given the frequency of the word, and the clarity of the
Burmese orthography on the subscript sequence "sm-").
-------------

E.M.

1681 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:41pm 
Subject: Re: Pali-Burmese Phonology & Orthography

Dear Eisel,

Thanks a lot for this useful study. There is one small point that might
need correction:

" The Pali short "a" is pronounced as an "i"; especially when
interpreting the implicit vowel adjacent to a geminate (i.e., before
or after a geminate) or in any syllable involving the letter "c" (the
latter is, recall, itself mispronounced as "s"). The pronunciation of
"paccayo" as "pissiyo", and "gacchaami" as "gissami" are frequent
examples."


The monk in the recording actually chants  "bissayo", because p > b,  as
you state above. I will try to get some chanting from a monastery in Mon
State.

Best wishes,
                     Nyanatusita

Eisel Mazard wrote:
> Below, I provide firstly (in brief) bullet-point observations on how
> Pali is pronounced/recited by the Burmese.  This is planned as part of
> a relatively verbose overview of how Pali phonology & orthography are
> very much intertwined in praxis --i.e., comparing "Burmanized Pali" to
> "Laoicized Pali", "Thaicized Pali", "SInhalized Pali", etc.
>

1682 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 22, 2006 0:19am 
Subject: Re: Pali-Burmese Phonology & Orthography 

I'd also be interested to know the details of when & where some of
those recordings were made --or any details about the particular monks
involved.  I think Ken & Vishakha are too busy to reply to my
questions along these lines.

It is interesting that more than one person has remarked to me that
the Khmer pronounciation of Pali is "the worst", but, from my
perspective, it may be "the best" --as they do in fact pronounce all
of the consonant sounds (howeverso transformed they may be).

David Wharton & I recently exchanged notes on regional Pali phonology
and orthography; I met Harald Hundius, too, but I spent most of my
urging him to study the inscriptions at Chiang Saen.  I should
probably transcribe them and print them in the JPTS; nobody can
photograph them, and, if anyone has published anything about them, it
is probably in an obscure Thai National Museum publication.

E.M.

1683 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:38am 
Subject: Re: Pali-Burmese Phonology & Orthography       

Thanks for all your hard work Eisel. Good news, the Chiang
Saen inscriptions have been photographed and transliterated
and described relatively well already. They are in a very nice
publication from 1997 (Vol. I of the Corpus of Lanna
Inscriptions) by Phanphen Kruathai, Hans Penth, and Silao
Ketphrom. It is available in a number of good Southeast Asian
Studies libraries in the West and East.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:19:33 -0800
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Pali-Burmese Phonology & Orthography
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>I'd also be interested to know the details of when & where
some of
>those recordings were made --or any details about the
particular monks
>involved.  I think Ken & Vishakha are too busy to reply to my
>questions along these lines.
>

1684 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:45am 
Subject: The peculiar and the profound   

Thank you very much for that citation, Justin --I would have no other
way of learning of such books' existence.  I was shocked that I had
access to several important/basic books that Wharton & Hundius were
lacking --so, generally, we're all re-inventing the wheel around here.

There is something to be said for writing _ex nihilo_ --you certainly
don't reproduce the errors of others --but make errors for yourself.
As I recently said to a colleague, "We learn nothing from making
errors, but only from noticing and redressing them".  Hopefully, we'll
have enough scholars in mutual correspondence around here to draw
attention to one-another's errors.

If you look at the number of Western scholars found variously in
Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Phnom Penh, Siem Reap, and Vientiane, you have
a varied and interesting pool of talent --but they do not have any
common plenary or conference, nor any common contact with an
instituion in the region.  It would be fruitful to somehow put (e.g.)
the Center for Khmer studies (Siem Reap) into contact with the Center
for Burmese Studies in Chiang Rai, etc. etc. --currently, we're all
isolated.

Although I now "know" Harald & David, we still have no "affiliation"
in any kind of philological organization; I even have e-mail with
Filliozat & Skilling once in a while (they're both in Bangkok) --but
none of these people know one-another.

We should talk to Kate Crosby and get SOAS to have an annual
conference in Champasak or something.  We could all worship the giant
stone elephant.

On an even sillier note: do you have (or know of) any publication
where I could find the (Lao) lyrics for the various National Anthems
and Patriotic songs that I see/hear on Lao TV?  This would be a really
useful means of language practice for me --but I can't sing along if I
don't first study the words on paper, decode them with a dictionary,
etc.

E.M.

1685 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:21am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

Books are precious in Laos and disappear quickly from the
library and bookstores. Hopefully you guys can pool some of
your resaources and share them.

A conference would be a good idea. There was one (IABS) in BKK
four years ago which drew about 200 scholars, many of them who
work regularly or permanently in the region. The EFEO has one
almost every year which many non-EFEO scholars go to. Its
often in BKK at the Anthro. Center. They are the most talented
and nicest bunch. There is the "Informal Northern Thai" group
which meets regularly throughout the year in CM and the Thai
Studies, Lao Studies, Cambodian Studies, and Burmese Studies
conferences which regularly draw from each other. For example,
there were several Cambodian specialists at the Lao Studies
conference and Thai, Lao, and Burmese people regularly meet.
The modern Burmese scholars do their own thing usually as do
the ancient historians in Cambodia. But, eventually we all
meet up I suppose. I will be at the Burmese Studies conference
this year for example, but not at the Vietnamese. I am even
going to a conference in Malaysia. I am burning out a bit
though. Too many to keep straight.

David Wharton, Kate Crosby, and Harald Hundius are all very
smart and wonderfully gracious people. Prof. Dr. Dr. Hundius
has, with Aj. Kongdeuane Nettawong (and several other good Lao
scholars), really given the world a gift with their ms.
preservation work. David's work on the conference proceedings
was wonderful and his present work sounds intriguing. Kate's
work is stringly original. She is working on Sri Lankan texts
that will change our perception on the history of meditation
and magical practices I'm sure. I am really looking forward to
reading them.

There are indeed great people in SEA Studies in the region.
You're right, we should get together more often. I remember
when I first went to Laos 15 years ago there was no internet
of course, but also, very few people used the phone. They had
phones, but, it seemed, it was just easier to go visit each
other and have a beer.

As for the National Anthem lyrics, I think I have that
somewhere. I will look through my files tonight and try to
find something. That's a good idea.

Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:45:03 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] The peculiar and the profound
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Thank you very much for that citation, Justin --I would have
no other
>way of learning of such books' existence.  I was shocked that
I had
>access to several important/basic books that Wharton &
Hundius were
>lacking --so, generally, we're all re-inventing the wheel

1686 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:32am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

I just thought, you may want to know about (although you may
already) the Northern Illinois Univ. website that has lots of
Lao Language learnign material on it. They even have
recordings. I have two students who study Lao with me and they
find it very useful. I think its a great site.
http://www.seasite.niu.edu/lao/

You also might want, for general Lao stuff, look at my new
wesbite. Its in progress, but, most of the links work: tlc.ucr.edu

Best,
jm
---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:45:03 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] The peculiar and the profound
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Thank you very much for that citation, Justin --I would have
no other
>way of learning of such books' existence.  I was shocked that
I had

1687 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:22am 
Subject: a peculiar form       

The story of the general Siiha A IV 179ff retold Vin I 233ff contains an odd
verbal form jiiranti p. 188 and 237, respectively, according to the
Sinhalese tradition. The Burmese reading, however, is jiridanti sic! The
commentators give two mutually exclusive explanations of the term: the first
is that the verb means "to be ashamed," the alternative is that it means "to
come to and end", "to stop." The first explanation evidently derives the
verb from the root hrii, cf. Sanskrit jihreti, jihriyat etc., the second one
would seem to rely on the root jri "to go." The first one fits the context
very well, but the readings cause difficulties. One would expect a form like
jirihanti or possibly jihiranti, but not jiiranti (< jihiranti?) or
jiridanti; the latter form is possibly a mistake for jirihanti as it is
difficult to explan the presence of /d/ on phonological or etymological
grounds (there is no matching root). I have never met with anything
comparable in the Pali canon. My question is therefore: would it be possible
to explain the peculiar Burmese reading on paleographical grounds?

Ole Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1688 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:44am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

Hi Justin,

   Do any of these conferences you mention (in BKK & Chiang Mai) keep
websites?

   I am genuinely unaware of the conferences you seem to describe
--although the propaganda surrounding the Thai Princess's annual
linguistics conference does reach me in my distant/dismal garret.

   Neither David nor Harald knew of the MPI Linguistics conference
coming up in Jakarta; I am not interested for the simple reason THAT
IT IS IN JAKARTA --but it is a true S.E.A. language conference.  More
interesting than the AAS conferences, to be sure.

   I regard the IABS with unease; it will surely be another four years
(at least) before it's in this neighborhood.

> I will be at the Burmese Studies conference
> this year for example...

   Uh... which conference is that, exactly?

> David Wharton, Kate Crosby, and Harald Hundius are all very
> smart and wonderfully gracious people.

   You really have to watch yourself with all this effusive praise; you
praise *EVERYBODY* to the sky, Justin.  Sooner or later the laws of
supply and demand with catch up with you and your praises will be of a
diminishing value.

> As for the National Anthem lyrics, I think I have that
> somewhere. I will look through my files tonight and try to
> find something. That's a good idea.

Great --please pass them on to me if you can.  Maybe I'll translate
them into Pali (that would be popular with the local authorities!).

P.S., I just applied for a UN position (that I was "encouraged" to
apply for from someone on the inside) --if I land one of these jobs it
will change my pace of work considerably.  Probably bad news for my
would-be contributions to Pali studies, but a relatively massive
salary that I could use to (e.g.) order some of these books you keep
telling me about.

E.M.

1689 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:56am 
Subject: Re: a peculiar form   

Hello Dr. Pind,

   Always impressive to read your observations.

   It is a big leap from _jiiranti_ to _jiridanti_ --I do not think
that orthography at any stage could be made to account for the
difference between the two.

   The very rarity of the word probably made it more susceptible to
mutation through human incompetence.

   I assume the medial syllables were first mutated to "rida-", then
the initial "jii" was mis-corrected to "ji" as if it were a prefix.

E.M.

1690 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:05am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

All the information on those conferences are on my wesbite
(usually under their respective country sections). The site is
still in progress amd still hard to navigate, but most of
those things are on it. The EFEO/Antho. Center conference is
not announced yet or at least not as far as I know.

The Burmese Studies conference is the big Burmese Studies
conference that is held every year.

I praise people who are kind and well-deserving. Prof. Dr. Dr.
Hundius deserves all the praise he can get, without him Lao
Studies would not be what it is today. He started long before
any of us and still does more than any of us do. David Wharton
has a long list of interesting experiences and talents. What
is not to praise? Kate Crosby does, what I think, is the most
original work in the history of magic and meditation today.
She has helped me a lot over the past two years. She has also
taught some excellent students. Again, what not to praise? We
little scholars stand on the shoulders of giants. No reason to
hate people or to criticize them undeservingly to make
ourselves feel smart. We're all in this together.

The IABS is too big to classify as one thing. The last conf.
in London was very useful (at least to my work). The next one
is in Atlanta I think. The one after that in Shanghai (but not
confirmed). When anything gets big, the quality in it becomes
dilluted.

I will be at the AAS on April 6th in San Francisco. Good for
political science, gender studies, and history. Not so good
for language.

I like Jakarta.

Good for you with the U.N. job. UNESCO has done some positive
things with preserving and recording Lao rituals lately. They
also work well with some monks that I know there. I am not
that familiar with their programs though. I only know through
a consultant for them here in Los Angeles.

It srtikes me now though that done of this is about Pali
grammar, so I will shut up.

Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:44:58 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] The peculiar and the profound
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Justin,
>
>  Do any of these conferences you mention (in BKK & Chiang
Mai) keep websites?
>

1691 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:31pm 
Subject: Re: a peculiar form

This is interesting.

Sp has (VRI etext): jiridanti (sic) ti jiranti abbhaacikkhantaa na
jiranti; abbhakkhaanassa anta.m na gacchantiiti attho.
I take this as meaning:
'they will never get old while they slander the Buddha' i.e. there is
no end to doing that.
So I take the root to be j.r 'grow old' and the underlying form to be
from Skt jiiryati. I would therefore suppose that the Vinaya
commentator had the form jiriyanti or jiiriyanti and glossed that
with jiiranti. In the one case, the unusual form has dropped out and
been replaced by its gloss. In the other, the form jiridanti has
replaced jiriyanti. This could either be a graphic confusion at some
point or perhaps a mistaken back-formation in some branch of the Mss
of the canonical text.

Buddhaghosa i.e. the author of Mp (followed by Sp-.t) finds this
unconvincing and offers his preferred alternative (atha vaa):
VRI: atha vaa lajjanatthe ida.m jiridantii ti pada.m da.t.thabba.m;
na lajjantii ti attho

I suppose this must be an interpretation in terms of some form of
hrii. ? BSkt intens. jehriiyate. I am not sure if we know what
happens in Pali if -hr- assimilates. perh. cp. rassa < hrasva.

Lance Cousins

>The story of the general Siiha A IV 179ff retold Vin I 233ff contains an odd
>verbal form jiiranti p. 188 and 237, respectively, according to the
>Sinhalese tradition. The Burmese reading, however, is jiridanti sic! The
>commentators give two mutually exclusive explanations of the term: the first
>is that the verb means "to be ashamed," the alternative is that it means "to
>come to and end", "to stop." The first explanation evidently derives the
>verb from the root hrii, cf. Sanskrit jihreti, jihriyat etc., the second one
>would seem to rely on the root jri "to go." The first one fits the context
>very well, but the readings cause difficulties. One would expect a form like
>jirihanti or possibly jihiranti, but not jiiranti (< jihiranti?) or
>jiridanti; the latter form is possibly a mistake for jirihanti as it is
>difficult to explan the presence of /d/ on phonological or etymological
>grounds (there is no matching root). I have never met with anything
>comparable in the Pali canon. My question is therefore: would it be possible
>to explain the peculiar Burmese reading on paleographical grounds?
>
>Ole Pind

1692 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:57pm 
Subject: a.d.da - not in PED, not in Cone's Dictionary       

Dear Friends,

Back on the list after moving back to my home monastery south of Chiang Mai.  I
am working again on the Jataka Commentary, and I've encountered a few problems.
   The latest one has me stumped.  Here's the passage:

atha ne pa.n.dito ''aha.m vo a.d.da.m dhammena vinicchinissaami, .thassatha me
vinicchaye''ti pucchitvaa

The problem word is a.d.da.m, as it doesn't appear in the PED, and I'm told it
is also not in Cone's new dictionary.  I found at least one other use of the
word in the canon in a compound with "kara.na", where it seems to mean "council"
or "court" or "decision", but I can't figure out the derivation:

maa me bhonto a.d.dakara.ne nisinnassa antarantaraa katha.m opaatetha

"Gentlemen, do not break in and interrupt me when I am sitting in council" -
Walshe (p.731)

MN 2.4.9 Dhammacetiya Sutta

Any help would be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo (Phra Noah)

1693 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:32pm 
Subject: Re: a.d.da - not in PED, not in Cone's Dictionary   

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

<< Back on the list after moving back to my home monastery south of
Chiang Mai.>>

Welcome back! I too have just moved back to my little forest hermitage
and the Pali books after a long winter break.

<< I am working again on the Jataka Commentary, and I've encountered a
few problems. The latest one has me stumped.  Here's the passage:

  atha ne pa.n.dito ''aha.m vo a.d.da.m dhammena vinicchinissaami,
.thassatha me vinicchaye''ti pucchitvaa >>

It seems to me that "a.d.da" is a variant of "a.t.ta" (lawsuit, legal
case -- Cone). I found your passage at J VI 335 and the reading there
in the PTS ed. is "a.t.ta.m". You will find it in PED (second entry)
in the sense of "lawsuit, case, cause". "a.t.takara.na" is "(the place
for) dealing with lawsuits; seat of judgement; courtroom" (-- Cone).

Best wishes,
Jim

1694 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:54pm 
Subject: Re: a.d.da - not in PED, not in Cone's Dictionary

On 25 Mar 2006, at 7:57 am, Yuttadhammo wrote:

> atha ne pa.n.dito ''aha.m vo a.d.da.m dhammena vinicchinissaami,
> .thassatha me
> vinicchaye''ti pucchitvaa
>
> The problem word is a.d.da.m, as it doesn't appear in the PED, and I'm
> told it
> is also not in Cone's new dictionary.  I found at least one other use
> of the
> word in the canon in a compound with "kara.na", where it seems to mean
> "council"
> or "court" or "decision", but I can't figure out the derivation:

A.d.do is a common Burmese spelling of a.t.to, whose meaning is legal
case, lawsuit, or cause. From it comes the Thai "ad-ta" or "ad",
defined in the Royal Institute Dictionary as "khadii khwaam".

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1695 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:43pm 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

Justin,

> All the information on those conferences are on my wesbite

Please don't be so terse: WHAT WEBSITE?

I certainly don't know it, and most of the people on this list won't know it.

> The Burmese Studies conference is the big Burmese Studies
> conference that is held every year.

Again, this level of detail could only be informative for someone who
already knew what you were talking about.  I don't; and other people
on the list won't.  If you could provide the link to the website
specifying the conference, that would be of some material assistance.

> No reason to
> hate people or to criticize them undeservingly to make
> ourselves feel smart.

What are you talking about?  Desultory back-stabbing is the life-blood
of the industry!  A.K. Warder is one of the most trucculent human
beings alive (albeit, he is now just barely alive) and the incessant,
hateful combat between him and just about every other pretender to the
Pali or Kavya specialization defined a generation.  Similarly, my
early experience with the demonic (and pointless) curelty of J.M.
Mason, S. Sandhal, and Phyllis Granoff, showed me that the world of
classical indology is defined by "people hating eachother and
criticizing in order to make themselves feel smart".  There's a reason
that none of these Western academics ordained: no metta-bhavana!

> I like Jakarta.

Yes, but you see, this is the problem of supply and demand again: you
say only positive things about *EVERY CITY ON EARTH*, so I can hardly
take this advice very seriously.

> Good for you with the U.N. job. UNESCO has done some positive
> things with preserving and recording Lao rituals lately.

Yeah, the UN-WFP also provided $12-million of support to Pol Pot's
Khmer rouge _per annum_, and set up & ran the camps that were used by
the U.S. to supply arms and mines to them (for decades) on the
Thai-Khmer border.  You see how dangerous it is to offer unconditional
praise?

> It srtikes me now though that done of this is about Pali
> grammar, so I will shut up.

You have a point; however, I think the conference information will be
useful to many on the list.

E.M.

1696 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:48am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound

Hi Justin, Eisel and group,

>
>
>> It srtikes me now though that done of this is about Pali
>> grammar, so I will shut up.
>
>You have a point; however, I think the conference information will be
>useful to many on the list.

Of course I can't speak for Jim or the rest of the list, but I find these
discussions interesting and fairly close to the original topic.

"Standing on the shoulders of giants"

"We're all in this together".

I like this approach, though I'm still climbing up the knees of the giants :-)

best regards,

/Rett


1697 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:12am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

The Burmese Studies conference will be at the National
University of Singapore (Asia Research Institute) in July. The
ARI website has all the details.

My website (which is a work in progress) is at tlc.ucr.edu. It
has info. about upcoming events (as many as I could think of)
in Thai, Lao, and Cambodian Studies. It also has some links to
academic institutions, short descriptions of scholars in the
field (the ones who sent me bios), some new book
announcements, in-line news and scholarly resources and links,
etc. Its just a start. It is designed to help students in
Southeast Asian Studies so there might not be much in terms of
Pali or Buddhist Studies, but if you have suggestions, please
send them. It is not designed to be comprehensive, just
informative and hopefully up-to-date.

In a year or two it hopes to have much more on it. I work on
it in my spare time. If you have bios. you would like to add,
please send them. If you want to be put on the mailing list,
please tell me. If you have announcemtns of new books,
conferences, job opportunities, fellowships, etc. please send
them and I will post them asap.

Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 09:48:00 +0100
>From: rett <rett@telia.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] The peculiar and the profound
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Justin, Eisel and group,
>
>>
>>
>>> It srtikes me now though that done of this is about Pali
>>> grammar, so I will shut up.

1698 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:14am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

Oh, most of the links are found on the site (tlc.ucr.edu) by
clicking on the map of the respective country you are
interested in. I will make that clearer soon.
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 09:48:00 +0100
>From: rett <rett@telia.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] The peculiar and the profound
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Justin, Eisel and group,
>
>>
>>
>>> It srtikes me now though that done of this is about Pali
>>> grammar, so I will shut up.
>>

1699 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:18am 
Subject: Re: The peculiar and the profound    

> Similarly, my
> early experience with the demonic (and pointless) curelty of J.M.
> Mason, S. Sandhal, and Phyllis Granoff, showed me that the world of
> classical indology is defined by "people hating eachother and
> criticizing in order to make themselves feel smart".  There's a reason
> that none of these Western academics ordained: no metta-bhavana!

Sorry, I couldn't help it.  I studied Indian Religion and Indian Philosophy
under Phyllis Granoff.  Thought I'd never have to hear her name again :( thanks
Eisel ;)

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1700 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:25am 
Subject: Re: Re: a.d.da - not in PED, not in Cone's Dictionary    

Dear Jim, Dhammanando,

Thanks ever so much.  I figured it out from a common-sense point of view as it
popped up a few times in the passage I'm translating, but to know that it is a
variant of a.t.ta (m.) is helpful.  Honestly, I thought I'd looked for it under
a.t.ta in the PED already.  Found it now, page 15:

Aṭṭa2 (p. 15)  [cp. Sk. artha, see also attha 5 b] lawsuit, case, cause Vin
IV.224; J II.2, 75; IV.129 (°ŋ vinicchināti to judge a cause), 150 (°ŋ
tīreti to
see a suit through); VI.336.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote:
> On 25 Mar 2006, at 7:57 am, Yuttadhammo wrote:
>
>> atha ne pa.n.dito ''aha.m vo a.d.da.m dhammena vinicchinissaami,
>> .thassatha me
>> vinicchaye''ti pucchitvaa
>>
>> The problem word is a.d.da.m, as it doesn't appear in the PED, and I'm
>> told it
>> is also not in Cone's new dictionary.  I found at least one other use
>> of the
>> word in the canon in a compound with "kara.na", where it seems to mean
>> "council"
>> or "court" or "decision", but I can't figure out the derivation:
>
> A.d.do is a common Burmese spelling of a.t.to, whose meaning is legal
> case, lawsuit, or cause. From it comes the Thai "ad-ta" or "ad",
> defined in the Royal Institute Dictionary as "khadii khwaam".
>
> Best wishes,
> Dhammanando

1701 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:42am 
Subject: Re: a.d.da - not in PED, not in Cone's Dictionary   

Dear Friends,

Here's the translated passage using 'a.d.da' (or 'a.t.ta'):

---------------------------------------------------

Test Two: The Ox

One man, dwelling in the village of Eastern Barley Commons, thinking, "when the
rain has fallen, I will plow," bought some oxen from the village and, having
brought them back, had them stay in his dwelling place.

On another day, sitting on the back of an ox collecting a patch of grass for the
purpose of fodder, he became weary in body and, descending at the root of a
tree, he lay down and fell right asleep. At that moment, a thief snatched the
oxen and ran away. The man, having awoken, not seeing his oxen, looked hither
and thither and, seeing the escaping thief who had snatched the oxen, leaped up
with great speed and said, "where are you taking my oxen?"

"I am taking my oxen to the place of my desiring."

Hearing their dispute, a great crowd assembled. The wise man, hearing the noise
of their going past the door to the hall, had them both called in. Having
regarded their behaviour, he knew, "this is a thief, this is an ox-owner."

Though knowing, he asked "What are you arguing over?"

The ox-owner said, "master, these I bought from such-and-such a village, from
the hand of one named so-and-so and, having brought them to my home, I kept
them
there. For the purpose of fodder, I led them to a patch of grass; then, seeing
my heedlessness, this one snatched the oxen and ran away. Looking hither and
thither and seeing this one, I pursued and seized him. One who dwells in
such-and-such a village is aware of the fact of my buying and taking ownership
of these."

But the thief said, "these were born in my house. This one speaks falsely."

* Then, the wise one asked them, "if I will decide your case (a.d.da) rightly,
will you stand by my decision?"

"Yes, master, we will stand by it," they said.

Thinking, "it is proper to obtain the consensus of the great crowd," he first
asked the thief, "what are these oxen made to eat by you, and what are they made
to drink?"

"They are made to drink conjey and eat sesame butter and maasa beans."

Then he asked the ox-owner.

He said, "master, from where for all of my hardship should conjey and so on be
obtained? They are made to eat grass only."

Having allowed the assembly to hear their speech, the wise one had piyangu
leaves brought and, having had them pounded and mixed with water, caused the
oxen to drink them.

The oxen vomited up the grass. The wise man showed the great crowd, saying, "let
all see this!" Then he asked the thief, "are you the thief, or are you not the
thief?"

He said, "I am the thief." The Bodhisatta exhorted him thus, "then indeed, from
now on, you must not do such things." But the Bodhisatta's company beat the man
with hands and feet until he was weak.

Then, the wise one told him, "verily, at the present moment you receive
suffering to this extent; but in future existence you will undergo great
suffering in hell and so on. Friend, from now on, you must abandon this action."
Having said this, he gave to him the five precepts.

The minister had the king informed of this incident exactly as it occurred. The
king asked Senaka, "what, Senaka? Should we call the wise one?"

"Anyone whatsoever, great king, could decide a case (a.d.da) over oxen. You make
him come just for that?" The king, indifferent, again sent back the very same
message.

---------------------------------------------------

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1702 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:59pm 
Subject: JatakaA     

Dear Friends,

If you don't mind, I will probably have many questions similar to the last one
about a.d.da for this list.  I already have a few that have passed by without
any answers (not thinking to come here to ask them):

---------------------------------------------------

1)

raajaa ta.m katha.m sutvaava tu.t.thacitto hutvaa senaka.m pakkosaapetvaa
tamattha.m aarocetvaa ''ki.m, aacariya, aanema pa.n.dita''nti pucchi.

so laabha.m maccharaayanto ''mahaaraaja, saalaadiina.m kaaraapitamattena
pa.n.dito naama na hoti, yo koci etaani kaareti, appamattaka.m eta''nti aaha.

so tassa katha.m sutvaa ***''bhavitabbamettha kaara.nenaa''ti*** tu.nhii hutvaa
''tattheva vasanto pa.n.dita.m viima.msatuu''ti amaccassa duuta.m pa.tipesesi.

The problem is with ''bhavitabbamettha kaara.nenaa''ti. I think it is the king
thinking to himself: "it must neccessarily be so." Is this correct?

---------------------------------------------------

2)

eko seno ***suunaphalakato*** ma.msapesi.m gahetvaa aakaasa.m pakkhandi.

What is the meaning of suunaphalakato?  phalaka is a board or plank, but a
swollen one? :D

---------------------------------------------------

3)

''go.naa.d.da.m naama, mahaaraaja, ye keci vinicchinanti, aagamehi taavaa''ti
vutte raajaa majjhatto hutvaa puna tatheva saasana.m pesesi. *sabba.t.thaanesupi
eva.m veditabba.m. ito para.m pana uddaanamattameva vibhajitvaa
dassayissaamaati.

The first part is the conversation between the king and Senaka, which is almost
the same in every paragraph.  The second part, starting with the asterisk, must
of course be a commentator's note, but a) why are they stuck together, and b)
why does it look like there is a quote mark on the end of dassayissaama (the
"ti" with a lengthened 'a'), as though it were the king himself saying it?

---------------------------------------------------

Thanks for any help you might give.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1703 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:14am 
Subject: Iconoclasm & Heresy in Bangkok 

Hi Justin,

   (1) I had seen this website before, but didn't know that you were
affiliated with it.

   (2) There are big gaps in the text provided on the web-page, e.g., a
missing page when one clicks on "Membership"; however, at least in
theory, this would be an association that I'd like to be a member of.
I hope it isn't expensive; perhaps you'll send me details off-list.
Do you have an "Unsalaried Palicist" membership rate?

   (3) An interesting landmark in the history of Thai Buddhism: a man
smashed the famous golden Brahma image near Siam Skytrain Station (in
front of the Erawan hotel) --and the offending iconoclast was
summarily beaten to death (!) on the spot by devotees of the statue.
The coverage in the _Bangkok Post_ seems suspiciously vague (as with
so many things in Thai polity); the paper suggests that the iconoclast
was "mentally deranged" (unlike the people who beat him to death?),
and does not specify how many devotees participated in reducing him to
a red puddle on the concrete in the ensuing outpouring of rage.  This
is the sort of thing that is supposed to "never happen" in Thai
Theravada Buddhism's opinion of itself; but I would also be interested
to know if the iconoclast had a political or religious motivation for
the act.  The Bangkok Post did review the origin and history of the
statue --it was minted in the 1950s to allay the fears of construction
worker that the site was haunted.

E.M.

1704 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:29am 
Subject: Re: Iconoclasm & Heresy in Bangkok   

I designed the site and am the chair of the organization. It
begin about 40 years ago, we had a paper newsletter up until
2003. It is beginning to be replaced with this site.

As I said it is a work in progress. There are "gaps" but I am
working on it. Since I am working alone on it, I cannot give
it all the time I would like. I do not get paid for it, but
hopefully it will attract students to the field in some small way.

Membership is free.

There are many new stories coming out everyday about the
Erawan Shrine (San Phra Phrom). The latest reports suggest
(and these have been confirmed by a few people I know close to
the investigation) that the "deranged man" was Muslim. The
Thai gov't apparently does not want to fan the flames of anger
by reporting this. Other reports suggest Taksin was behind it
because he wants to replace the sore of the shrine with his
own amulets and Khmer yantras. It is very sad that a man was
killed.

A students of mine is writing his thesis on this shrine. Now
he has a lot more work to do! More info. will come out on this
soon I have heard.

jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 13:14:27 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Iconoclasm & Heresy in Bangkok
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Justin,
>
>  (1) I had seen this website before, but didn't know that
you were
>affiliated with it.
>

1705 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:30am 
Subject: SV: JatakaA      

<The problem is with ''bhavitabbamettha kaara.nenaa''ti. I think it is the
king thinking to himself: "it must neccessarily be so." Is this correct?>

Not quite. Translate: "There has got to be (bhavitabbam) a reason
(kaara.nenaa; instr. To be construed with bhavitabbam; this type of
construction is also found in contemporary Sanskrit lit.) for this" (ettha;
a locatival adverb syntactically equivalent to a pronoun in the locative; it
here is used anaphorically).

Regards,
Ole Pind

1706 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:51am 
Subject: SV: a peculiar form   

I assumed that the cluster /hr/ would be treated on the analogy of hrii >
hirii; cf. hiriiyati. In such a case metathesis of /jihiranti/ >
/jirihanti/, which somehow was corrupted to jiridanti. The commentators
suggestion that it means to come to en end seems to rely on the
interpretation of the form as derived from the root jri, which the
grammarians interpret as denoting the action of going, therefore the
suggestion, as I understand the commentator, that it means to come to and
end of slandering the Buddha, it is, they never stop slandering him. If we
interpret the passage in the light of the root jr/jur "to waste away, grow
old" we have to assume, I believe, that this verb in this particular passage
is used with connotations that are not recorded elsewhere in the canon.
This, of course, is possible.

I have found among my papers a note that Helmer Smith mentions the reading
jhiiranti in a letter to Dines Andersen dated 3-04-1932. As soon as I have
dug it out somewhere at the University of Copenhagen and read it, I shall
let you know what solution Helmer Smith came to, if any at all. That will be
interesting.

Best wishes,
Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af L.S. Cousins
Sendt: 25. marts 2006 00:32
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] a peculiar form

This is interesting.

Sp has (VRI etext): jiridanti (sic) ti jiranti abbhaacikkhantaa na jiranti;
abbhakkhaanassa anta.m na gacchantiiti attho.
I take this as meaning:
'they will never get old while they slander the Buddha' i.e. there is no end
to doing that.
So I take the root to be j.r 'grow old' and the underlying form to be from
Skt jiiryati. I would therefore suppose that the Vinaya commentator had the
form jiriyanti or jiiriyanti and glossed that with jiiranti. In the one
case, the unusual form has dropped out and been replaced by its gloss. In
the other, the form jiridanti has replaced jiriyanti. This could either be a
graphic confusion at some point or perhaps a mistaken back-formation in some
branch of the Mss of the canonical text.

Buddhaghosa i.e. the author of Mp (followed by Sp-.t) finds this
unconvincing and offers his preferred alternative (atha vaa):
VRI: atha vaa lajjanatthe ida.m jiridantii ti pada.m da.t.thabba.m; na
lajjantii ti attho

I suppose this must be an interpretation in terms of some form of hrii. ?
BSkt intens. jehriiyate. I am not sure if we know what happens in Pali if
-hr- assimilates. perh. cp. rassa < hrasva.

Lance Cousins

>The story of the general Siiha A IV 179ff retold Vin I 233ff contains
>an odd verbal form jiiranti p. 188 and 237, respectively, according to
>the Sinhalese tradition. The Burmese reading, however, is jiridanti
>sic! The commentators give two mutually exclusive explanations of the
>term: the first is that the verb means "to be ashamed," the alternative
>is that it means "to come to and end", "to stop." The first explanation
>evidently derives the verb from the root hrii, cf. Sanskrit jihreti,
>jihriyat etc., the second one would seem to rely on the root jri "to
>go." The first one fits the context very well, but the readings cause
>difficulties. One would expect a form like jirihanti or possibly
>jihiranti, but not jiiranti (< jihiranti?) or jiridanti; the latter
>form is possibly a mistake for jirihanti as it is difficult to explan
>the presence of /d/ on phonological or etymological grounds (there is
>no matching root). I have never met with anything comparable in the
>Pali canon. My question is therefore: would it be possible to explain the
peculiar Burmese reading on paleographical grounds?
>
>Ole Pind

1707 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 0:29pm 
Subject: abhihat.thu.m

Dear Ole Pind,

Do you think that abhiha.t.thu.m, which only occurs with forms of the
verb pavaareti, could be a .namul absolutive ending in -u.m, rather than
an absolutive similar to da.t.thu.m (in which the absolutive ending
-tu.m is used as an absolutive)?  If it is a .namul, then it is used
adverbially, and this would make more sense in expressions such as
abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya in the Paatimokkha.

Best wishes,
                              Nyanatusita


1708 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:17pm 
Subject: Re: Iconoclasm & Heresy in Bangkok   

Thanks for the information, Justin.

I'm searching for the EFEO library today --hopefully I'll take a look
at that "Earlier than 8th century Mon inscription" that Lorrillard
mentions in his article.

For "good news" to contrast to the Brahma-shrine murder debacle, I'll
note that an idol that was found floating in the Mekong was quite
sufficient to inspire a local Buddhist revival not far from Vientiane.
  The villagers were massing to see this thing, and eventually
requested the attention of some kind of government/university official
--who pointed out that it was both plastic and Hindu in origin, and
therefore not the ancient relic that some were supposing it to be.

> The latest reports suggest
> (and these have been confirmed by a few people I know close to
> the investigation) that the "deranged man" was Muslim. The
> Thai gov't apparently does not want to fan the flames of anger
> by reporting this.

The fact that it isn't being reported is perhaps more significant that
the proposition itself.  I also find the assumption/assertion that he
was "deranged" a rather sudden lurch of judgement on the common man's
part.

> Other reports suggest Taksin was behind it
> because he wants to replace the sore of the shrine with his
> own amulets and Khmer yantras.

That is truly hilarious.  Somehow, I think he would be more likely to
replace it with a statue of himself.

> It is very sad that a man was
> killed.

That is precisely the point that none of the press seems to observe: a
human being was murdered --and that is rather more deserving of
investigation and criminal prosecution than the smashing of a 1956
plaster idol, that was pretty well a tourist-scam operated at a profit
by a hotel-corporation to begin with.  It is certainly true that
Sino-Thais regarded the statue with devotion; but the scheduled dances
and fee schedule were pretty overt cues as to how little "religion"
had to do with this fee-for-service operation.  As with most
pseudo-Hinduism in Thailand, more than 90% of the devotees were ethnic
Chinese, including huge numbers of Chinese visitors (e.g., from
Taiwan).  Someone should deliver a paper as to why (Thai) Ganesh &
Brahma images have such a resonance for ethnic Chinese both within the
Kingdom and visiting from abroad. I've never met a Laotian who
owned/worshipped a Ganesha, but there are certainly Sino-Thai/Chinese
entrepreneurs in Lao who do so.

E.M.

1709 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:38am 
Subject: Pre-8th century inscription Mon/Pyu 

Well, I found the EFEO library --contrary to earlier indications, it
is open to the public, so I need not sully myself by joining the EFEO
in order to use its collection.

Lorrillard showed me two _in situ_ photographs of the inscription in
question --I must assume that the Mon specialists he showed it to are
only familiar with much later inscriptions, as it seemed to me quite
clear and easy to transliterate.  I made notes in advance based on
what I expected to see (i.e., given that it is 8th century or earlier,
possibly in Sanskrit, and based on the other scant details that I
could glean from the article) --these proved to be adventitious notes.
  The orthography was just about exactly what I had expected, i.e.,
looking as much like Pyu (of the period) as Mon, with a lot of glyphs
being directly comparable to South-Indian (e.g., Kadamba) forms of the
same time.

Lorrillard evidently wants to conduct the rest of the research himself
(as is his right), after further cleaning and rubbing the stone; he
did not deign to provide me with a copy or print-out of the
inscription --although he insisted that he had shared it with a large
number of experts, none of whom could transliterate it.  However, I
honestly think that I could have transliterated it fairly easily; the
simple fact is that while the people who produced that stone were (it
seems) ethnically Mon, it isn't really useful to think of it as "Mon
script".  In the 8th century you've got a soup of Pallava and Pyu
elements being used to write Sanskrit and Pali; someone whose
expertise is in fully-developed Mon orthography (Dvaravati or later)
would indeed find this very wierd.  If you're familiar with the
earliest range (i.e., from Ashokan to Pallava) it doesn't seem so
cryptic at all.

In any case, I'm sure Lorrillard is capable of bringing the study to a
conclusion; but I find it strange that he complained (in the article
that drew my attention to the case) about the difficulty of getting it
transliterated, and the need for the help of others to do so --but he
now seems satisfied to proceed to do it himself --when, in my opinion,
there does not seem to be any special difficulty in so doing.

Although I looked at it for less than two full minutes, one could
immediately see that it is indeed a work in verse, with the Sanskrit
spelling of "Sri" (not a conclusive criterion as to its language, BTW;
the spelling of "Sri Lanka" also defies the Pali convention).

E.M.

1710 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:40am 
Subject: Re: Iconoclasm & Heresy in Bangkok  dhammanando_... 

On 27 Mar 2006, at 11:17 am, Eisel Mazard wrote:

> The fact that it isn't being reported is perhaps more
> significant that the proposition itself.  I also find the
> assumption/assertion that he was "deranged" a rather sudden
> lurch of judgement on the common man's part.

That isn't so. On the day after the incident the man's
father testified that his son had had a decade-long history
of mental illness. Given the problems in the South of the
country it was prudent of the local media to emphasize his
being mad rather than the fact that he was a Muslim.

> That is precisely the point that none of the press seems to
> observe: a human being was murdered -- and that is rather
> more deserving of investigation and criminal prosecution
> than the smashing of a 1956 plaster idol, that was pretty
> well a tourist-scam operated at a profit by a
> hotel-corporation to begin with.

Though it is located on hotel ground, the Erawan shrine is
in fact maintained by Moonniti Than Tao Phrom, a highly
respected charitable foundation that supplies equipment to
rural hospitals, and much else.

www.mahaprom.org/index_eng_history.htm

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1711 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:49am 
Subject: SV: abhihat.thu.m     

Dear Nyanatusita,

This is a very interesting problem. Andersen and Smith assumed that
abhiha.t.thu.m is an absolutive. Their opinion was evidently influenced by
the commentators who invariably, so it seems, gloss the term by means of an
absolutive. Now the use of an absolutive immediately before a finite verb
is, I believe, uncommon i Pali. The idea to interpret it as a .namul would
in fact make much better sense. The only problem is the termination. A
regular .namul, of which there are quite a few in the canon, and several in
the Paatimokkha, sometimes unrecognised, should have a regular nominal
ending in the accusative, like, for instance, abhihaara.m.
I have gone through the limited number of examples of the use of the term
and I have come to the conclusion that it is a regular infinitive < Sanskrit
abhihartum. One passage e.g. M I 222, describing an anavasesadohii, a monk
who "milks" the pool of parikkhaaras that lay people present him with to
such an extent that nothing is left over, explains that he knows no measure
to taking matta.m na jaanaati patiggaha.naaya (the text is using a dative
with the syntactical function of an infinitive). Abhiha.t.thu.m must refer
to the action of taking of the monk: he is presented with parikkhaaras to
take away (abhiha.t.thu.m). Whenever the old commentary included in the
Vinaya-vibha.nga explains the phrase abhiha.t.thum pavaar- it says: take as
much as you want. This becomes fully understandable if we assume that the
phrase means: present(s) a monk (acc.) with bhesajja etc. (instr.) to take
away (abhiha.t.thum) i.e. when he starts wandering after the rains
residence. The monk is the agent of the action denoted by the infinitive. I
think the problem originates in identifying the agent of abhiha.t.thu.m as
the lay people.

With kind regards,

Ole Pind


Dear Ole Pind,

Do you think that abhiha.t.thu.m, which only occurs with forms of the verb
pavaareti, could be a .namul absolutive ending in -u.m, rather than an
absolutive similar to da.t.thu.m (in which the absolutive ending -tu.m is
used as an absolutive)?  If it is a .namul, then it is used adverbially, and
this would make more sense in expressions such as abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya
in the Paatimokkha.

Best wishes,
                              Nyanatusita

1712 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:01pm 
Subject: Re: JatakaA      

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

> 2)
>
> eko seno ***suunaphalakato*** ma.msapesi.m gahetvaa
> aakaasa.m pakkhandi.
>
> What is the meaning of suunaphalakato?  phalaka is a board
> or plank, but a swollen one? :D
>

Cowell & Rouse translates it as "from the slab of a slaugterhouse"
(The Jaataka, Vol. VI, p. 160). In the PTS version of the text (J VI
334,l 23) the reading is "suunaaphalakato". I think it might be
referring to a board or slab used for cutting meat.

Jim

1713 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:10pm 
Subject: Re: SV: a peculiar form   selwyn@ntlworld.com 

Following your reference to HS I looked in the index to Saddaniiti
(Vol. V p. 1402) and found:

jhiirati [jhiiryati, K.siir p. 123,24; cf. AMg jhijjai (= k.siiyate, Pischel
326] Vin I 237,34 (Sp [1098,1-2] Ce).

The equals sign should have a slash i.e. 'equals approximately'.

This is not quite clear to me, as I don't have K.siiratara'nginii.
But it looks as if HS found the reading jhiiranti in a Sinhalese
edition of Sp. If he took this as meaning 'perish, come to an end',
then it doesn't work well with the infinitive in the A version. Also,
the variant does not seem well attested in the light of the
additional passages we have.

I didn't intend to argue that the explanation in terms of a root
meaning 'to grow old' is correct for the canonical texts; only that
this is what is meant in the commentaries. In fact, I agree with
Buddhaghosa and you that a derivation from hrii is better.

The reason I am unconvinced about the root meaning 'go' is the
negation in abbhaacikkhantaa na jiranti. If that is equivalent to:
abbhaacikkhantaa na gacchanti, I do not see how it could be
explained: abbhakkhaanassa anta.m na gacchantii ti attho. But this
may depend on what exactly is the meaning of 'jiranti'.

>I assumed that the cluster /hr/ would be treated on the analogy of hrii >
>hirii; cf. hiriiyati. In such a case metathesis of /jihiranti/ >
>/jirihanti/, which somehow was corrupted to jiridanti. The commentators
>suggestion that it means to come to en end seems to rely on the
>interpretation of the form as derived from the root jri, which the
>grammarians interpret as denoting the action of going, therefore the
>suggestion, as I understand the commentator, that it means to come to and
>end of slandering the Buddha, it is, they never stop slandering him. If we
>interpret the passage in the light of the root jr/jur "to waste away, grow
>old" we have to assume, I believe, that this verb in this particular passage
>is used with connotations that are not recorded elsewhere in the canon.
>This, of course, is possible.
>
>I have found among my papers a note that Helmer Smith mentions the reading
>jhiiranti in a letter to Dines Andersen dated 3-04-1932. As soon as I have
>dug it out somewhere at the University of Copenhagen and read it, I shall
>let you know what solution Helmer Smith came to, if any at all. That will be
>interesting.
>
>Best wishes,
>Ole Pind


--
Best Wishes,

Lance

-------------
From:
L.S. Cousins, Esq.,
12 Dynham Place,
Headington,
Oxford,
OX3 7NL

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn@ntlworld.com

1714 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:11pm 
Subject: Re: JatakaA

Ven. Yuttadhamma:

>3)
>''go.naa.d.da.m naama, mahaaraaja, ye keci vinicchinanti, aagamehi taavaa''ti
>vutte raajaa majjhatto hutvaa puna tatheva saasana.m pesesi.
>*sabba.t.thaanesupi
>eva.m veditabba.m. ito para.m pana uddaanamattameva vibhajitvaa
>dassayissaamaati.
>
>The first part is the conversation between the king and Senaka,
>which is almost
>the same in every paragraph.  The second part, starting with the
>asterisk, must
>of course be a commentator's note, but a) why are they stuck together, and b)
>why does it look like there is a quote mark on the end of dassayissaama (the
>"ti" with a lengthened 'a'), as though it were the king himself saying it?

For myself, I often have problems with ti in commentaries. Part of
the problem is that we do not have critically edited texts and so
cannot refer to manuscript evidence. It is rather easy for an
erroneous ti to creep in. Or, in some cases we may be dealing with a
sentence actually quoted verbatim from an earlier commentary. That
could be so here. Or, I may be missing some obscure (or not so
obscure) usage of ti.

I am not sure what you have in mind when you ask why they are 'stuck
together'. I take it that the meaning here is that a similar exchange
between the king and Senaka, leading to another similar message
should be understood after each of the following stories (each
referred to by a single word in the viima.msan'-uddaana).

Lance Cousins
--
Best Wishes,

Lance

-------------
From:
L.S. Cousins, Esq.,
12 Dynham Place,
Headington,
Oxford,
OX3 7NL

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn@ntlworld.com

1715 
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:16pm 
Subject: Re: JatakaA

Ven. Yuttadhammo,

Yes, I understand similarly to Jim.

I think this must be the suuna in asisuunaa - according to CPD
'butcher's knife and chopping block'. CPD also cites Ja V 303,30
where the commentary explains as = ga.n.dikaa.

Lance Cousins

>2)
>
>eko seno ***suunaphalakato*** ma.msapesi.m gahetvaa aakaasa.m pakkhandi.
>
>What is the meaning of suunaphalakato?  phalaka is a board or plank, but a
>swollen one? :D
>
>---------------------------------------------------


--
Best Wishes,

Lance

-------------
From:
L.S. Cousins, Esq.,
12 Dynham Place,
Headington,
Oxford,
OX3 7NL

CURRENT EMAIL ADDRESS:
selwyn@ntlworld.com

1716 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:53pm 
Subject: Re: JatakaA      

Thanks Jim, Ole, Lance for your help.  After giving rise to many headaches over
this translation, it finally entered my mind that in the room above mine there
are ten copies of the Thai-Pali Tipitaka and one Thai translation complete with
translations of the commentaries - all of which no one here ever touches, of
course :D  Should be easier going now.

The problem with the commentarial passage I referred to is that it is in the
same paragraph as the conversation with Senaka in the CSCD - normally they
would separate such things out - of course that has no reflection on the original
pali.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

Jim Anderson wrote:
> Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,
>
>> 2)
>>
>> eko seno ***suunaphalakato*** ma.msapesi.m gahetvaa
>> aakaasa.m pakkhandi.
>>
>> What is the meaning of suunaphalakato?  phalaka is a board
>> or plank, but a swollen one? :D
>>
>
> Cowell & Rouse translates it as "from the slab of a slaugterhouse"
> (The Jaataka, Vol. VI, p. 160). In the PTS version of the text (J VI
> 334,l 23) the reading is "suunaaphalakato". I think it might be
> referring to a board or slab used for cutting meat.
>
> Jim

1717 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:13pm 
Subject: Re: Pre-8th century inscription Mon/Pyu   

Michel has been working on the full catalogue for Lao
inscriptions for a long time. It should be a masterful work.
He is a methodolical scholar. His dissertation is very good.
He takes things one step at a time and produces high quality
work. He also works closely with Lao scholars and monks and
learns from them. He is always very busy though. He has a lot
of responsibilties to the EFEO and Nat. Univ. of Laos. He also
travels for conferences and to France often. I am glad that
you got to see some of his work. I cite a few other articles
by him in a recent article on Lao history. That should be out
soon. I hope.

How has contact with the UN gone? I have been learning more
about their "Quiet in the Land" project in Luang Phrabang,
from a friend of mine in Los Angeles. Would you be working on
that?

Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 03:38:07 -0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Pre-8th century inscription Mon/Pyu
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "David Wharton"
<davidwharton@lycos.com>
>
>Well, I found the EFEO library --contrary to earlier
indications, it
>is open to the public, so I need not sully myself by joining
the EFEO
>in order to use its collection.
>

1718 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:14pm 
Subject: JatakaA     

Dear Friends,

It also may come as a welcome note that www.sacred-texts.com is transcribing
many of the old PTS translations of the tipitaka - latest addition, the first
two volumes of the Jataka Commentary, with a promise that the rest will follow
soon.  Here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

Yuttadhammo wrote:
> Thanks Jim, Ole, Lance for your help.  After giving rise to many headaches
over
> this translation, it finally entered my mind that in the room above mine there
> are ten copies of the Thai-Pali Tipitaka and one Thai translation complete
with
> translations of the commentaries - all of which no one here ever touches, of
> course :D  Should be easier going now.
>

1719 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:09pm 
Subject: Past Participle       

Dear Friends,

I have a question about transformation of a sentence from one form to another.
Pardon me if my poor grammatical knowledge skews the question I have to ask, but it seems clear that when verbs are transformed into past participles, they are
generally construed as passive (e.g. karoti = he does, kata = it is done).  It
is not so clear with verbs having to do with motion (eg gacchati).  For example,
   "aha.m  buddha~nca dhamma~nca sa"ngha~nca sara.na.m gataa"

So, now I am looking at a verse in the Dhammapada that goes:

ga.no vo maa upaccagaa

I don't quite understand upaccagaa, but I understand that it means "may it not
overcome".

If I want to change this sentence, putting "vo" as the subject (or more
accurately, "so"), in order to say: "he who is not overcome by the moment" (i.e.
he who doesn't let the moment pass him by), would the following be correct?

ga.nena anupaatigato

I am concerned that it means instead, "one who doesn't overcome by (i.e. using)
the moment", because I don't understand whether "gato" should mean "that which
has gone" or whether it should mean "that which is gone to", and whether
"paatigato" should thus be construed as "that which overcomes" or "that which is
overcome".

I hope it is understood what I am asking - any help would be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1720 
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:59am 
Subject: Re: Past Participle

Dear Bhante Yuttadhammo,

Thanks for the interesting question.

>
>
>I have a question about transformation of a sentence from one form to another.
>Pardon me if my poor grammatical knowledge skews the question I have to ask,
but
>it seems clear that when verbs are transformed into past participles, they are
>generally construed as passive (e.g. karoti = he does, kata = it is done).  It
>is not so clear with verbs having to do with motion (eg gacchati).  For
example,
>  "aha.m  buddha~nca dhamma~nca sa"ngha~nca sara.na.m gataa"
>
>So, now I am looking at a verse in the Dhammapada that goes:
>
>ga.no vo maa upaccagaa

The version I have reads "kha.no ve maa upaccagaa" (Hinber/Norman 1995)


>I don't quite understand upaccagaa, but I understand that it means "may it not
>overcome".

In case the form is what's unclear here you have upa + ati + a (aorist augment)
+ gaa

ati+a > atya > acca
upa + acca > upaacca > upacca

>
>If I want to change this sentence, putting "vo" as the subject (or more
>accurately, "so"), in order to say: "he who is not overcome by the moment"
(i.e.
>he who doesn't let the moment pass him by), would the following be correct?
>
>ga.nena anupaatigato


In the same verse (Dhp 315) you have a construction related to what you wish to
express: kha.naatiitaa "those passed by by the moment".

If you analysed the cpd I guess it would be kha.nena atiitaa

atiitaa is, of course, from ati+ i (another root of motion like gam).

So I would think your suggestion works, alternatively "kha.nena anatiito"

If it is unprecedented in the corpus then you are getting into the difficult
area of productive Pali composition. You'd probably be well served by Sanskrit,
since there are more materials out there on how to write good and idiomatic
Sanskrit. Scholars like A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera almost certainly had solid
Sanskrit underlying their ability to write in Pali (not to mention the authors
of the .tiikaa-s, and even Buddhaghosa himself who set the standard for
commentarial Pali). If you look at the creativity and inventiveness of Sanskrit
authors during the classical period then I think you're safe in coining terms
and phrases as long as you can justify them according to the classical grammars.
That appears to be the attitude used by classical Indian authors: if the rules
allow it, it's okay, regardless of whether it's precedented in the ancient
literature or not. If challenged you can point to kha.naatiitaa which is, after
all, not merely allowed by the usual rules, but is also Buddhavacana.

best regards,

/Rett

1721 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:26pm 
Subject: Re: Pre-8th century inscription Mon/Pyu   

Hi Justin,

> Michel has been working on the full catalogue for Lao
> inscriptions for a long time.   ...

Yes, yes --your usual practice of praising everyone without
reservation or concession.  You see?  I've already grown inured to
hearing all this praise.  To give praise is like carving a bas-relief:
you must make use of shadow to show the light.

> How has contact with the UN gone? I have been learning more
> about their "Quiet in the Land" project in Luang Phrabang,
> from a friend of mine in Los Angeles. Would you be working on
> that?

No, I've never heard of that project; it's difficult to 'hear about'
much of anything here --I'll look up the project as you mention it on
the internet.

The project I may or may not become a part of is the most direct form
of development assistance: feeding malnourished children.

E.M.

1722 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:36pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Iconoclasm & Heresy in Bangkok    

Thank you, Bhante, re:

> On the day after the incident the man's
> father testified that his son had had a decade-long history
> of mental illness.

None of the newspaper accounts I read mention this (your mention of it
here is the first I've read of it) --and so I remain at doubt as to
whether it is fact or rumour.  I am also very much in doubt as to
whether two street sweepers were so highly motivated at to kill the
fellow, or if this was a swarming by a crowd, but only the street
sweepers were charged with the crime.

> Given the problems in the South of the
> country it was prudent of the local media to emphasize his
> being mad rather than the fact that he was a Muslim.

What seemed to me remarkable was that they emphasized that *he* was
mad, not the people who decided to kill him; the shifting (social)
definitions of madness are of interest to me, and it seems that a man
who destroys a "unique" statue is deemed mad, while a human life
(presumed to be of no such unique value) is of little significance
when destroyed.  Thus, "madness".

There still has not been a single arrest or investigation for the more
than 2,000 murders that were carried out in the first months after
Taksin's election --despite condemnation from everyone from the King
to Amnesty International.  Thailand has an interesting mix of
attitudes toward murder; they remain, e.g., extremely sentimental
about killing stray dogs, but not about stray people, nor cows, etc.

E.M.

1723 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:07am 
Subject: Rare Pali editions at the EFEO, Vientiane      

I spent about three hours at the E.F.E.O. library in Vientiane, today,
and I have the following observations on some of the rare Pali
editions in their stores.  Generally, I am delighted that such
resources exist in Vientiane; the E.F.E.O. has a basic but important
collection of the fundamental textbooks for Pali (yes, including A.K.
Warder) available to the public --this is likely the only public
institution with such books in Laos, as the National University no
longer has anything on Pali (I am told) and the Sangha College is
closed to the public.

(1) Contrary to earlier statements by Dr. Justin McDaniel, I observe
that at least three volumes of the (ill-fated) Luang Phabang edition
of the Tipitaka were printed.  As I wrote in 2005, I have strong
reason to suspect that the complete text was prepared, and at least a
single copy was published of most/all volumes of the Tipitaka.  Last
year I reported in some detail the edition I "discovered" in Luang
Phabang (but could not lay my hands upon) and its binding/covers were
identical to the three volumes now found at the E.F.E.O.  This is,
again, an odd contradiction of the descriptions I've been sent (of the
binding) from Dr. McDaniel.

The E.F.E.O. has the following on the shelves:
     -  V.P. Mahaa-Vibha'nga 1 (viz., the text McDaniel already attested to?)
     -  S.P. D.N. Vol. 1 (printed in the same year)
     -  A.P. Dhammasa'nga.ni Vol. 1 (printed in the same year)

Thus, at a minimum, the first volume of each Pitaka was simultaneously
printed in this edition.  All of these are publications of
photo-duplicated hand-written Pali text in Lao-Tham script, with
occasional footnotes on textual variations.  The density of text per
page is low, and the script is clear and legible (but not very
beautiful).  The heraldic seal of the royal family of Luang Phabang is
featured on the cover, title-page, etc. (viz. a three-headed elephant
bearing the wheel of the dhamma).

The yellow, hard-bound volumes are each wrapped in a white paper cover
with blue (Lao-Tham) text on the spine --i.e., identical to the
(complete?) edition I spotted at Luang Phabang.  As the binding seemed
incorrect to him at the time, McDaniel suggested (in response to my
initial observation) that this might just be a non-Lao edition wrapped
in a Lao cover.  I would now tend to re-affirm my earlier speculation
that at least an early "proof" was completed of all volumes and kept
at the palace --where it remains.

(2) It seems that the sequel to Maha Silaviravong's work on Pali
orthography/grammar did emerge: the EFEO has a Xerox copy of a very
tiny volume (pocket-sized) that is apparently the promised "Second
Part" of the better-known (and reprinted in 1996) work on the
1933-standard Lao-Pali script (*not* Lao-Tham).  This book declares
itself as a grammar, but, like the volume that preceded it, I will
remember it mostly for its typography; it is an extremely brief and
incomplete grammar.

(3) The E.F.E.O. has the complete set of the (more commonly seen)
texts titled "hLak-sutra-hyan-bali", i.e., numbered exercises for
learning Pali.  These are the large, sloppy-looking texts reproduced
from hand-written facsimiles of 1933-75 standard Lao-Pali script
(*not* Lao-Tham) and pre-revolution spellings in the Lao text
throughout.

(4) Of considerably more interest than the above is a tiny book (or
pamphlet) titled "bb-hyan-bali", providing a similarly brief overview
of orthography and grammar, but with really excellent Lao-Tham
handwriting, and charts comparing it to both Burmese & Khom/Khmer
script --as well as occasional French and Romanization provided, e.g.,
for grammatical terminology.

E.M.

1724 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:46pm 
Subject: Re: Rare Pali editions at the EFEO, Vientiane       

This is a hastily written e-mail. However, I am very short on
time.
I apologize to the group in advance for my temporary gruffness
and sloppiness. I am in the middle of a lot of work right now.

There are a couple factual errors that I need to correct. I do
not want to be criticized for praising everyone too much:)

After this I will stop participating on this list unless it
has something directly to do with Pali grammar. I simply do
not have the time (with a family, volunteering, tutoring,
studying Burmese, and a full time job).

I also imagine people
on this list do not have the time (or desire) to listen to any
of my ramblings.

There are three points which Eisel is slightly mistaken about
in the last few e-mails.

First, it was widely reported on the first day after the
destruction of the Erawan Shrine (San Phra Phrom) in
Bangkok that the perpetrator had a long history of mental
illness. His father was interviewed extensively. We can choose
not to believe his father if we want to, but, to say that it
was not reported is wrong. It was in several Thai newspapers
and in the English language Nation and Bangkok Post. It was
also reported on the Asian News Network in English. These are
all available on-line. It is very sad that a person was
killed, but two men were arrested. If others were directly
involved in the beating, I guess they got away.

Second, Eisel is mistaken. The Wat Ong Teu (Sangha College)
library is open to the public. You just need to get permission
from the abbot first.
I have used it many many times. So have other scholars.

Third, Eisel is misrepresenting our earlier e-mail
conversation on the topic of the "Lao tripitaka." He writes as
if I "wrote off" his earlier "findings." I did not. I spent a
great deal of time on them. It seems like a wild goose chase
though. I also contacted many other Lao and Foreign Scholars
of Buddhism in Laos. They all confirmed my thoughts. I could
be wrong. However, I still have not seen any proof from Eisel.
   If there is proof, I will gladly agree with Eisel on this
matter. Its not about WHO is right, it is about finding out
WHAT is right. I just do not appreciate being misrepresented
or having my statements taken out of context. I am usually a
very passive and calm guy. I rarely get angry. No point
really. I am wrong about most things. However, since this is a
semi-public forum, I will defend myself.

Eisel wrote:
>The E.F.E.O. has the following on the shelves:
>    -  V.P. Mahaa-Vibha'nga 1 (viz., the text McDaniel
already attested to?)
>    -  S.P. D.N. Vol. 1 (printed in the same year)
>    -  A.P. Dhammasa'nga.ni Vol. 1 (printed in the same year)
>
>Thus, at a minimum, the first volume of each Pitaka was
simultaneously
>printed in this edition.  All of these are publications of
>photo-duplicated hand-written Pali text in Lao-Tham script, with
>occasional footnotes on textual variations.  The density of
text per
>page is low, and the script is clear and legible (but not very
>beautiful).  The heraldic seal of the royal family of Luang
Phabang is
>featured on the cover, title-page, etc. (viz. a three-headed
elephant
>bearing the wheel of the dhamma).
>
>The yellow, hard-bound volumes are each wrapped in a white
paper cover
>with blue (Lao-Tham) text on the spine --i.e., identical to the
>(complete?) edition I spotted at Luang Phabang.  As the
binding seemed
>incorrect to him at the time, McDaniel suggested (in response
to my
>initial observation) that this might just be a non-Lao
edition wrapped
>in a Lao cover.  I would now tend to re-affirm my earlier
speculation
>that at least an early "proof" was completed of all volumes
and kept
>at the palace --where it remains.

AGAIN, THIS IS WRONG, PLEASE SEE MY COMMENTS BELOW. I DO
NOT
APPRECIATE BEING CRITICIZED FOR SOMETHING I DID NOT SAY.

Third, Eisel is mistaken about what I told him about the “Lao
tripitaka.” I did not “suggest” anything. I told him directly
what I knew. I hate to be petty. This blog seems to often
devolve into petty, non-Pali-grammar related issues. I am
wrong about many things in life. We all are. However, if I am
not sure about a subject, I do not make blanket statements
suggesting that I am correct. I could have been wrong about
the “Lao edition” of the tripitaka in Pali, but in this case,
I was not wrong. I will not continue commenting on this matter
again after this e-mail, because I imagine that I am becoming
irritating to the
rest of the group.

You will see that I told him of the “white cover
set” long ago. Indeed, everyone in Lao Buddhist Studies knows
about this edition. It is easily found. It is kept not only at the
EFEO library, but at Wat Mixay, Wat Ong Teu, The SRI library
in Bangkok, the National Library in Bangkok.  A number of sets
were printed. They are not a
“Lao edition,” but copies of the Northern Thai (Yuan) script
edition. This was largely a ceremonial printing it seems. The
first three volumes may have been seen as ceremonially
representing the entire tripitaka. There is another, red
cover, edition. I also mention this in my e-mail exchanges
with Eisel. It was printed in 1974-1975. I told Eisel about
this as well. It is not in Pali, but in Lao.
I told him this. I also give a slightly fuller description
below. I can write more on this, but since it does not relate
to Pali grammar directly, I won’t waste everyone’s time.
Please see e-mail exchange and my short description below.
Then I will shut up.

Eisel wrote:
>(1) Contrary to earlier statements by Dr. Justin McDaniel, I
observe
>that at least three volumes of the (ill-fated) Luang Phabang
edition
>of the Tipitaka were printed.

YES THREE I SAID THAT. THREE VOLUMES. PLEASE SEE BELOW. I DID
NOT CONTRADICT MYSELF. I SAID THREE, THERE COULD BE MORE<
BUT
NO ONW HAS SHOWN ME ANY EVIDENCE. HOW DID I CONTRADICT
THIS?
PLEASE PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF OTHER VOLUMES IF YOU CAN. SO
FAR
YOU HAVE NOT. I have asked friends in LP and have been there
many times myself. There is no corroboration for your
statements. You could be right, but, please provide proof.

EM wrote:
As I wrote in 2005, I have strong
>reason to suspect that the complete text was prepared, and at
least a
>single copy was published of most/all volumes of the Tipitaka.

SEE my exetended comments below. Let me say right here though
-- "why do you have strong reason to suspect"? What evidence
to do have?

Eisel continues:
Last
>year I reported in some detail the edition I "discovered" in
Luang
>Phabang (but could not lay my hands upon) and its
binding/covers were
>identical to the three volumes now found at the E.F.E.O.
This is,
>again, an odd contradiction of the descriptions I've been
sent (of the
>binding) from Dr. McDaniel.

AGAIN, PLEASE SEE MY COMMENTS AND YOUR EARLIER
STATEMENTS:

OUR exchange was:

EM:
Speaking of 20th century Pali editions: I was shocked to see a
beautiful set
of books with the spines printed in Lao-Tham script, reading
"Lavorajassatipitaka", i.e., the King of Lao's edition of the
tipitaka.
Apparently this is a mid-20th century edition (I would be very
surprised if
it pre-dated 1950) from Luang Pabang --but I've never seen or
heard of it
before.  Does the Sangha college in Vientiane have a full set?
  The National
Library doesn't have a single volume.  On the next shelf over,
there was
what appeared to be a complete set of the Burmese script
Buddha-Jayanti
edition of the Suttapitaka --still in its original mylar
wrapper!
Presumably this was a gift to the king of Luang Pabang --and
one that he
never opened?  Both of these were in the temple chamber
holding the ashes of
the king --or, at least, the vehicle that was used to parade
the ashes of
the king?  I'm not entirely clear on the function the vessel
in question.

JM wrote:
Real quick, how many volumes were in the
"King of Laos Tipitaka" that you saw in the glass case. What
that the actual title? Were they white or red volumes? I want
to check what I have in my office to what you saw.
justin

EM wrote:
There were 20 volumes visible --it is possible that more
volumes were in one
of the wooden cases (i.e., with no windows) in the same room.

Of the 20 volumes, almost all were suttapitaka --there was
just one vol.
from the Abhidhamma pitaka, and I counted (and wrote down) how
many were
from the Vinaya (maybe 4? I don't have my notebook with me).

Whether or not that particular set is complete, the visible
volumes do
indicate that it was the entire tipitaka that was published;
as mentioned,
the text on the spine was Lao-Dhamma --apparently
photo-facsimile from
hand-writing.

The actual title was as reported (i.e., in Pali) --although I
could only
read the spine, not the front cover, nor any publication data
within.

There was neither Laotian nor English on the spines of any of
the volumes; I
note with humour that "king of Laos" could also be interpreted
(in strictest
Pali) as "king of the reapers".  (Isn't "lavo"
reaper/harvester in Pali?).

JM> Were they white or red volumes?

The dust jackets were white & blue, and the binding beneath
looked like the
type of synthetic yellow that was more commonly used for
library editions in
the 1950s or early 1960s.

JM> I want
> to check what I have in my office to what you saw.

I do hope that this edition is available somewhere in
Vientiane --I have
nothing "at home" in Lao Dhamma script --and if I could xerox
a few pages of
it, it would be helpful both to me and to the fellow who is
making a Unicode
Lao Dhamma font.  He has a very impressive track record if you
want to look:
www.xenotypetech.com

The "white" edition you mention is probably the same: the dust
jacket had
blue text on a white background --in Lao-Tham script.

JM> (the volumes are in my office). I have a 1957 set in White...

  Looks like my attempt to guess the date was pretty much
accurate, then.

JM> (based on the Yuan version ...

It would be interesting to know more about this --i.e., the
history of
either the source text or the particular edition.

JM>and a Red set (not complete) in
> Tham from 1975 (I think). I remember being surprised at the
date.

JM -- I HAVE MORE ON THIS BELOW NOW.

Yes, the revolution may have cut the printing run short on the
"red"
edition.

JM wrote:
I think I have some of what you saw. They were printed in a
very small number and are not available anywhere I have
looked, including France. I will look in the Library of
Congress and send you a short description of what I have soon
(the volumes are in my office). I have a 1957 set in White
(based on the Yuan version and a Red set (not complete) in
Tham from 1975 (I think). I remember being surprised at the date.
More soon,
justin

JM WRoTE LATER:
Hi,
I am back in my office. See below a short exerpt from my book
(still in draft form) about the "King of Laos" tipitaka.

I ADD NOW-- THERE IS LAO LANGUAGE EDITION THOUGH. THE PALI
EDITION HAS WHITE COVERS (I GIVE DETAILS BELOW). SO FAR ONLY
THREE VOLUMES CAN BE CONFIRMED (as Eisel has seen in the EFEO
library). IF THERE ARE OTHERS, THERE CERTAINLY COULD BE, BUT
SO FAR NO ONW BUT EISEL WHO I KNOW HAS SEEN THEM. HE ONLY
SAW
THE BINDINGS. IF HE CAN GET A COPY, PHOTOGRAPH IT, IT WOULD
HELP. BUT HE IS MAKING A CLAIM WITHOUT PROOF.

JM continued:
I am
a bit confused, I thought only one volume of the (RED-1975)
King of Laos
edition was ever published. I have that one volume. However,
perhaps they printed up to 20. As for the 1957 Tham script
edition, I thought there were only three volumes (white cover
--- no blue) ever printed. I am not sure what you saw and now
I have to go see for myself! I am excited. The 1957 edition is
based on a Lanna (that Yuan, not Chinese or Vietnamese Yuan)
edition which itself was based on the Siamese edtion of
1893/1916. The Lanna edition was printed at Wat Rampeung in
Chiang Mai.
I hope that this helps, if you know anybody in LP with a
digital camera that can take a picture of the volumes that you
saw, I would be very grateful.
Thanks,
justin

JM WROTE:
The editions I mentioned are in the modern Thai script, not
Khom or Mon. I have a Thai book that describes these editions,
I will dig it up.
I have heard today from a coupld Lao scholars that the LP mss.
are under stricter supervision and limited access because of
feared theft.
Thanks for your info. on the 1957 edition, I guess they
printed at least one copy with more than three volumes. I fear
  that they are all just copies of the Lanna edition though.
There are plenty of Pali books in CM. The Lanna script, Pali
language tradition is alive at well at Wat Suan Dok and Wat
Phra Singh (among others). Wat Thamma-o in Lampang with Phra
Dhammananda is doing Pali work as well and students of his now
teach Pali in Bangkok. I have lots of info. on this that we
can share in the future in person.
justin

Here is a very rough draft of a short piece on monastic
education in Laos (including some reports on Pali education)
in the last 100 years. Below, I mention the "red" and "white"
cover editions.

BUDDHIST MONASTIC EDUCATION IN INDOCHINE
By the time Lefèvre arrived in Luang Phrabang the monastic
schools of Laos had over 400 years of development.  Besides
pedagogical manuscripts there is little we can know about this
history. The French did not base their secular and Catholic
educational institutions on local monastic models, nor did
they invest in the maintenance of monastic schooling. In fact,
“Western” influence, in practice and theory, seems to have
bypassed monastic educational practices. Where we do see the
French influence is at the elite institutional level and
attempts for French scholars to “renew” Buddhist education.
The problem was that there is no evidence that there was a
time in history when local Lao and translocal Buddhist
beliefs, rituals, and literature were not intimately
intertwined in text, education, and performance. Early on the
French mistook their own conceptions of ideal Buddhist
education for what was the “original” local conception. It is
essential to understand this formative historical period in
order to have a foundation from which to discuss the
curricular history of monastic education.
The French based their primary administrative offices for
Indochine in Vietnam. Ideally in each French designated town
there were one public école cantonale (primary school) and in
the major French administrative regions there were écoles
d'arrondissement (district schools) which were supposed to be
directed by a French-born teacher and overtime assisted by
native teachers. In Vientiane, Savannakhet, Luang Phrabang,
and Paksé there were eventually Catholic schools and major
urban centers had one école cantonale.   These schools were
primarily run by Vietnamese hired by the French.
The French established a Ministry of Education with a French
administrator. His primary goal was to open French language
schools and train young Laos to help in the organization and
administration of the country. French speaking Laos were
permitted to be primary school teachers in new schools built
with limited colonial funds. In 1896 the first French language
school opened in Luang Phrabang. This school only served the
elite Lao in the city, while monastery schools operated
without French involvement in most of the city and rural
areas. Soon other écoles primaire (Hong Hian Pathom Seuksā)
opened in Champasak, Vientiane and Xiang Khouang. Secondary
education was limited to a two-year institution in the
capital. In order to complete a secondary school degree Lao
students had to study in Hanoi or Saigon, Vietnam. By “1940
only 7,000 students attended state-run schools. By 1945 only
ten Lao had gained tertiary qualifications.”  A small
percentage of the students at these schools were women. Even
for men, school was not an important option for Lao families
under the French. A few elite Lao, like King Sisavangvong and
S.P. Nginn, studied in Paris, but most common Lao women and
men had little commerce with French state-rum schools.
The vast majority of lay and ordained students still studied
at monastic schools without influence from the French language
or curriculum. The French did not oppress or discourage
monastic education. Quite the opposite, the French encouraged
monks to study at these schools as well, but there was neither
funding given to monastic schools nor any significant effort
to change the curriculum.  Beginning in 1929 they began
funding restoration of monastery buildings and images, but
there was no direct funding provided for monastic schooling.
In fact, much of the restoration work was done at monasteries
that were archaeologically valuable, but that had no resident
monks or schools, like the ancient Khmer temples in the South
and burnt and abandoned temples.
The particular training of ordained novices and monks has
changed little over this period and indeed little since the
sixteenth century in terms of subject matter and pedagogical
methods. The French did not concern themselves with changing
the mode of education for most non-elite Lao because of the
great expense involved.  It is difficult to determine if the
French even saw informal instruction at rural monasteries as
“education.” The French needed a certain number of French
speaking administrators and these were supplied by the
Vietnamese, who the French largely saw as culturally and
ethically superior to the Laos. This staff was adequately
produced at the small number of primary and secondary schools
in urban Laos. It is unclear if monastic education was seen as
secondary to secular education or if “graduates” from monastic
schools were seen as “educated” citizens. In short, French
records tell us little about the schedules, duties,
examinations, pedagogical methods, curricular content, etc. of
monastic students and teachers. However, although they did not
actively support country-wide monastic education they invested
in the study of Buddhism, Lao history, linguistics, epigraphy,
archaeology, and art history.
The Ecole française l'Extrême-Orient (EFEO), which was founded
in Saigon in 1898, sent French scholars to Laos in the early
part of the twentieth century to research in the vast
manuscript archives and analyze the Buddhist and other
monuments.  Louis Finot, the first great French scholar of
Laos, composed the first major catalogue of Lao palm-leaf
manuscripts.  In the first half of the twentieth century,
unlike EFEO scholars in Indonesia and Vietnam, there was less
focus on ethnography and contemporary history and more on
Buddhist texts, architecture, and images.
It seems that palm-leaf and stone were more important to
foreign Buddhologists than the actual lives and education of
Buddhist monks. How Lao monks used these texts in practice was
of no concern.  If Laos was seen as important at all by early
colonial era scholars it was for texts.  The focus on Buddhist
texts and learning in general led the EFEO not only to
catalogue manuscripts, but also to promote the composition and
preservation of, especially Pali texts. To this end, in 1922
under the influence of Finot, the Cambodian King Sisovath and
the résident supérieur of Laos, agreed to establish the Ecole
supérieure de pâli under the patronage of the EFEO.  This
focus on a Pali school was due to the general attitude that
Pali was the “original” and thus superior Buddhist language of
learning. Even though Finot’s own survey concluded that Pali
composition and commentary was not a primary part of the Lao
Buddhist intellectual heritage, the EFEO saw Pali instruction
as their priority. The Pali language was seen as tying the
regions populated by Sri Lankan and Mon influenced “Theravada”
Buddhism (Sri Lanka, Siam, Burma, the Shan States,
Sipsongpanna, Northern Thailand, Laos, Cambodia) together.
Moreover, the general attitude among Western Buddhologist in
the early twentieth century was that contemporary Lao Buddhism
had unfortunately been cut from its Indic roots and had become
corrupted with animist and other local beliefs. This focus on
Pali also placed Laos as derivative to other Theravada
kingdoms in Sri Lanka, Burma, Cambodia, and Siam.
It seems that the French sought to renew Lao Buddhist
education to a state that never actually existed. This
attitude is reflected in the 1910 Catholic encyclopedia which
reported: “[I]ts [Buddhism’s] philosophy, scarcely understood
by a few bonzes and educated laity, is a mystery to the mass
of the population. The Laotine of the present day is a
nature-worshipper and a fatalist.” According to the EFEO, Pali
helped develop “les études de théologie bouddhique par un
enseignement rationnel des langues anciennes sacrées, le pâli
et le sanskrit, et de toutes connaissances indispensables   la
compréhension et   l’explication des textes religieux.”  To
further support the “rediscovery” of Pali (and Sanskrit) by
the Lao bonzes/monks Suzanne Karpelès was brought from
Cambodia. The first Pali schools were established (before she
arrived there) in 1909 and 1914. Her hope for the Cambodians,
with French governmental support, was the they [les
Cambodgiens] “élaborent l’édition d’un Canon bouddhique
complet, établissant le texte en pâli (notamment   partir des
textes de la Pali Text Society, basée   Londres...).”  This
focus on the British Pali Text Society’s notion of the Pali
canon (tipitaka) was seen in research by foreign Buddhist
studies scholars in Sri Lanka, Burma, and Siam as well and has
been well documented by other scholars as of late.
One of the growing criticisms of colonial era orientalist
scholars was that they privileged classical over vernacular
languages and the ancient over the modern, and in the case of
Southeast Asia " the Indic over the indigenous. This attitude
and approach to research was replete with a messianic rhetoric
" the colonizers were not exploiters, but restorers and
preservers. They were here to discover the Lao past and its
glorious Indic roots for the Lao. Based on this
generalization, the orientalist rubric can be applied to early
EFEO scholars in Laos, especially since most of them were
trained Indologists who had worked in or on India, and their
initial projects were not only centered on collecting
manuscripts and investing in renewing Pali education, but also
on restoring monuments.
However, this description is much too simplistic. To be fair,
the even the earliest EFEO scholars did not see Laos as merely
a passive receptor of other Buddhist cultures.  Their work was
never explicitly derisive or dismissive. These were not
ordinary colonizers, travelers or missionaries. First, the
budget and expertise of the EFEO was limited in Laos. Most
French ethnographers, economists, botanists, archaeologists,
etc. worked in Vietnam or Cambodia. There is a rich tradition
of French musicology, anthropology, secular literature, and
even ethnobotany in Vietnam. Second, although Finot and
Karpelès favored Pali texts and education, the former did make
a great effort to document vernacular and non-Buddhist
literature.
It is difficult to define the colonial “influence” on the
study of Lao Buddhism or Lao intellectual and literary life in
general. There wasn’t one model of a good colonist as there
wasn’t one model of what made a good monastic student. There
certainly seems to be little direct colonial influence on Lao
monastic education. The wide variety of classical and
vernacular texts and the dynamic integration of textual and
ritual practices seen in Lao monasteries past and present has
generally been reflected in the scholarship. In Laos, the
convenient division between the pre-modern and the modern or
the pre-and post-colonial is of limited use.
The Lao case gives us a new perspective on the nature of
colonialism and orientalism. There was not an overwhelming and
internally consistent colonial ideological machine which
attempted to change all modes of Lao intellectual and
religious expression. Many EFEO scholars’ motivation was not
simply “orientalist;” meaning they were not trying to discount
the local and the present in favor of the ancient and the
pan-Asian. Their concerns were highly local. Although Finot
and Karpelès saw the Pali Text Society’s idea of the Pali
canon as ideal and original, Karpelès, herself, stated that
the establishment of a Pali school in Laos would be useful as
a way of keeping Lao monastic students from moving to study in
Siam, while simultaneously connecting Lao students to their
supposed “Theravada” comrades in Cambodia. Although Siam
(especially the regions of Northeastern and Northern Thailand)
and Laos are much more closely related in language, curricula,
ritual, than Cambodia and Laos, the French needed to bind
Indochine together and encourage the Lao to travel down the
Mekhong to study rather than across it.  The investment in
Pali education and the entire Institut bouddhique was largely
practical and institutional, not ideological or epistemological.
In 1931, Suzanne Karpelès, M. l’Administrateur Mantovani
(representing the Résident supérieur of Cambodia), S.E. Tiao
Phetsarath (the first President of the Institut bouddhique in
Laos), Prince Sisaleum, M. Bosc (representing the Résident
supérieur of Laos), and Prince Sutharoth of Cambodia’s
representative (because the prince could not travel such a
long distance from Phnom Penh) met in Vientiane to inaugurate
the official opening of the Institut bouddhique. The Institut
was dedicated to the memory of Auguste Pavie, the famous
explorer of Laos to “définir l’"uvre du progrès moral et
intellectual que la France poursuit au Laos.”  Monks were
invited to chant at the ceremony and books “de morale écrits”
in Lao “caractères” (which I assume, but cannot confirm, means
that they were short Pali prayers, “beum suat mon” in Pali
written in Lao script) were distributed to the crowd.  Later
that afternoon, in conjunction with this ceremony was the
opening of the newly rebuilt hǭ tai manuscript library at Vat
Sisaket, which had been looted and burnt by Siamese armies in
1827. This certainly was a symbolic act to establish the
French as the defenders of the Lao against the Siamese. The
simple fact that the French established their primary colonial
offices in Vientiane and largely rebuilt the city was a sign
of renewal after the Siamese had depopulated and almost
completely destroyed the city a century previously. It was
also economically better connected to Cambodian centered
trade. The head of the Lao sangha is reported to have thanked
the French for preserving Lao Buddhism and conserving “des
monuments religieux du pays et de la sollicitude dont elle
entourait la pratique du culte bouddhique.”
At this ceremony it was also announced that a new Pali school
(Ecole élémentaire de Pâli   Bassac) was being opened in
Bassac (modern day: Champasak in Paksé Province in Laos’ deep
south about 50 miles from the Cambodian border).  Bassac was
to draw Lao students closer to their fellow monks in Cambodia.
She stated that Bassac was an area “très fertile, très
peuplée, se développe rapidement au point de vue économique.”
  However, in the 1920s and 30s the French vision of opening
the fertile fields, mines, and forests of Laos to the sea
through Cambodia was still alive. The Pali school was one
small part of their hopes of linking Cambodia and Laos
culturally, as well as economically and politically.
Karpelès’ expertise was in Cambodia, where she had worked for
a lengthy period before being assigned to Laos.  In speeches
she continually attempted to connect Cambodia to Laos. For
example, she invited Cambodian officials to Laos for the
opening of the Institut bouddhique.  She brought together Lao
monks from all over the country who had never met and
introduced them to Cambodian monks. Twelve of these Lao monks
actually traveled with her to Phnom Penh. In Phnom Penh the
Lao monks were questioned on their knowledge of the Vinaya and
trained on opening a Pali school in Laos.  Karpelès stated
directly that this would help Lao monastic students study Pali
without going to the monastic schools in Bangkok. The Bulletin
of the EFEO for 1931 states that these students
“inévitablement l’attrait de Bangkok et, chaque année, des
bonzes laotiens vont dans la capitale du Siam pour leurs
études religieuses. La création d’une Ecole de Pâli   Bassac,
serait de nature   remédier   cette fâcheuse situation et  
retenir chez nous les jeunes gens désireux de se livrer  
l’étude de la langue sacrée.”   The establishment of the Pali
school by the French not only showed their support of Lao
Buddhism, but also “remedied a sad situation and helped retain
the young men” who would otherwise seek to “read and study the
sacred [Pali] language” in the uncolonized/non-French Bangkok.
  The Résident supérieure of French Laos echoed Karpelès’
pan-Indochine mission for the EFEO. At the inauguration of the
Institut bouddhique, he stated
  The mission [scope of work] of this new [intellectual] body
extends not only over all of Cambodia and Laos, but also
covers a large part of the provinces of Southwest Cochinchina,
where more than 200,000 souls effectively remain Cambodian and
deeply attached to their native land. They continue, despite
the numerous trials that they have undergone, to practice with
rigor the precepts of the Buddha. In order to help them
preserve intact the pious heritage of their ancestors, the
institute has provided a much needed moral foundation by
establishing a constant relationship between them [Southern
Lao] and their Cambodian brothers. For Laos and the Khmer
kingdom, the institute is striving to renew the common
intellectual heritage that formerly existed between these two
countries.
At this ceremony high ranking monks from the sanghas in
Cambodia and Laos gave speeches. However, the differences
between their speeches are telling and may reflect some subtle
tensions in the management of Buddhist scholarship and
education under colonial control. Venerable Nath of Cambodia,
the director of the Pali school in Phnom Penh and the head of
the “Tipitaka Commission,” like his new French leaders
discussed the links between the Buddhism(s) of Cambodia and
Laos. In fact, Venerable Nath of Cambodia even stated that the
Buddhist monks of Vietnam were “equally” students of the
Buddha and therefore the differences between the “Hinayāna”
and “Mahāyāna” sects were less significant than their status
as Buddhists. He made this connection between the three major
Indochinese groups by emphasizing the importance of studying
the Tipitaka (although we do not know which texts and they
did not emphasize the importance of the texts being in Pali).
Indeed, the Vietnamese never had a tradition of studying Pali
texts. The Venerable Nath of Cambodia did mention a story from
the canonical Anguttara-Nikāya in which the Buddha emphasized
the importance of monks studying the Dhamma and keeping their
monastic rules. However, he emphasized the importance of the
king and the government protecting the Tipitaka more than the
actual contents of the teachings.  The emphasis on the power
of the king as well as the government may indicate an attempt
to remind the French that the monks still paid allegiance to
their own ceremonial and political leader.
The speech from the unnamed head of the Lao sangha is
strikingly different. Perhaps emboldened  by the fact that the
ceremony was taking place at one of the most sacred Lao
monasteries, Vat Chan, or because he resented speaking after
his Cambodian equivalent, the Lao monk did not mention
Cambodia, Vietnam, Indochine, or brotherhood whereas they were
mentioned several times by the others. He concentrated his
remarks only on the heritage of Lao Buddhism and the Lao
people. He thanked the governor general, but only because he
was helping the Lao people protect their texts by building a
library which would hold “Tham” manuscripts. By using the word
“Tham” instead of “Pali” or “Buddhist” or “Hinayāna”
or
“Theravada” he was indicating that the newly restored
manuscript library at Vat Sisaket and the new Institut
bouddhique were important because it protected Lao texts
written in the Tham script which is unique to Laos.  Lao
monastic education was for the Lao and by the Lao. The French
merely supplied a building.
Notwithstanding the remarks of the head of the Lao sangha,
Suzanne Karpelès and her colonial bosses aimed to steer Lao
monks toward Cambodia and the Pali schools at Bassac and Phnom
Penh. This was part of a larger vision of culturally,
educationally and religiously binding the peoples of Indochine
together. It was particularly important for the French to
create a history in which Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos were
“naturally” “brothers,” to defend against Siam’s claims to the
latter two. Siamese armies had occupied large swaths of
Cambodia and Laos intermittently between the fifteenth and
nineteenth centuries. The French had to create an Indochine
culture at the expense of Siam. In this situation, Karpelès
can be seen more as a practical colonialist instead of a
condescending orientalist. Although since she worked “with”
Lao and Cambodian scholars and monks instead of “above” them
she cannot be labeled solely one or the other. In this regard
though, EFEO scholars and the Résident supérieur for the
French colonial government remained practical and
administrative in their relationship with Lao monastics. The
Lao sangha was placed under official French authority on
September 5, 1927. Article one of the religious code referred
to education and stated that the French were to assure that
the Lao monks maintained their rituals and preserved their
monasteries. Furthermore, they were supposed to “développer,
en vue du relèvement intellectuel et moral du peuple, les
écoles des pagodes où les enfants reçoivent les premiers
éléments d’instruction.”  It is clear that this colonial
rhetoric of “recovery” and “moral improvement” links Leria,
Lefèvre, Bassenne, and the French colonial government. The
French officially organized the monks placing all monasteries
in a district under the monastic district head “Chao
Raxakhana,”[sic] and the head district monks under the
authority of the provincial head monk. This proved to be of
little consequence to Lao monastic education, recruitment, or
organization. The French still maintained that the oldest monk
(in terms of years (literally: total number of pansā, Pali:
vassa or monsoon seasons ordained) would be the abbot of a
monastery unless the monks otherwise decided. If there was a
disagreement, then the Commissaire du Gouvernement would hold
an election.
Besides these administrative rules, there is very little
mention of monastic education besides four articles in the
general French colonial “resolution on religious affairs.”
Articles 13-15 of the colonial religious code briefly mention
monastic education. They read:
Every religious [aspirant] (monk or novice) is required under
pain of sanctions laid out in the religious rules, to observe
the Buddhist discipline and law, to study the teachings of the
Buddha and to facilitate the work of the abbot. Two years
after one’s admission into the Buddhist clergy, each novice
must know how to read and write Lao, and each monk must know
how to read tham [script]. Each religious [aspirant] who does
not give proof of possessing these intellectual skills will be
removed from the order. The abbot is to maintain himself or by
designating other monks to do it for him, a monastery school
where children from the surrounding villages come to study Lao
writing and mathematics.
Article 31 is more specific and states that there are certain
texts that novices and monks should be familiar with -- those
being:
the Thatou Pattivek, Patticoula, Tangtianika, Atita (for
novices)” [sic; Pali: Dhātupaccavekkhanam,
Patikkūlapaccavekkhanam, Tankhanikapaccavekkhanam,
Atītapaccavekkhanam] and the Patimokhala Sangvaiasine,
Indrigna, Asiva palisukasine, Pattiaya Sinenesittasine [sic;
Pali: Patimokkhasamvarasīlam, Indriyasamvarasīlam,
Ājīvaparisuddhasīlam, Paccayasannissitasīlam] (for fully
ordained monks).
  This was not a stringent (and there is no evidence that it
was actually enforced) set of rules. Lay children were
expected to learn basic mathematics and Lao vernacular reading
and writing. Novices were expected to learn how to read and
write in the Lao vernacular and monks were expected to know
Lao and the old Buddhist script " Tham. Knowledge of Pali
grammar or the ability to translate, compose, etc. Pali texts
were not required. Moreover, the minimal curricular
requirements (which, again, we have no evidence of them being
enforced) were not more than more or any different from
standard pre-colonial texts. The texts for the novices listed
above are no more than parts of the basic monastic precepts
and chanting that are necessary to know (or memorize) to
perform the ordination ceremonies and for morning and evening
ceremonies (tham vat chao and tham vat yen). They are not
found as intact texts in this order in the canon, but are
commonly available in handbooks that guide monastic life and
usually form the first few pages. The texts required
specifically for monks are little more than four short
chapters from the non-canonical Visuddhimagga. The French were
not directing the study of particular canonical Pali texts,
but were simply following what Lao novices were actually
studying and memorizing in the pre-colonial period. In fact,
the novice’s requirements are less than five pages of Pali
text (memorized for basic prayers). Handbooks that guide
novices’ and monks’ chanting are still commonly available in
Laos and these short Pali texts were common in manuscript form
as well. The first chapter of the Visuddhimagga, from which
the texts for the monks derive, is common in nissaya-form in
Laos. The common criticism that colonial and/or Western
Buddhologists discounted and devalued local Buddhist practice
and learning cannot be universally applied to the scholars of
the EFEO, members of the Institut bouddhique, or officials of
the French colonial government. In fact, the French had very
little influence on the actual content of monastic education.
      Although Karpelès did promote the study of Pali and seems to
have had a genuine desire to enhance of Lao education far and
above the needs of French colonial security very few monks
ever actually studied at the Pali schools in Cambodia. In
practical terms, these schools were far away from the
traditional seats of Lao monastic education in Luang Phrabang
and Vientiane. Few monasteries had the funds to send monks to
Cambodia and few Lao monks could speak Khmer or French. Where
a Lao person could learn Thai in a few weeks, Khmer and Lao
are two different language families with entirely different
syntactic, morphological and phonological foundations and
rules. Simply put, the impact of French reform on Cambodian
monastic education discussed extensively by Bizot, Edwards and
Hansen was not seen in Laos.
Still, there is evidence that Lao monks did see Cambodian Pali
schools as desirable seats of learning. Penny Edwards provided
me with several letters from the Résident supérieur du
Cambodge collection of the National Archives of Cambodia in
which Lao novices and monks were given permission to study to
Phnom Penh. For example, a 24 year old Lao monk named Thong Di
(Phra Thammapanya) was one of the first Lao monks sent in July
1923. His letter of introduction states that he had studied
Pali at Vat Phra Chinalong in Luang Phrabang for six to seven
years and was being sponsored for further study by the Lao
Ministre des Cultes. This suggests that Lao scholar monks were
not being forced to study in Cambodia, but actually did
consider the Pali school in Phnom Penh as capable of providing
instruction to their best and brightest young monks.
Other letters (in Khmer and translated into French) support
this interpretation. On April 25, 1929 eight Lao monks were
given permission to travel to study at the Pali school in
Phnom Penh because of their “grand interet” and for the sake
of improving there previous studies in Laos. A letter written
two days later states that these Lao monks were accepted and
provided with housing at Vat Unnalom (a major monastery in
Phnom Penh) and that they would be greeted by Prea Nhien Bovar
Vichea, the Director of the Pali school himself. In a letter
dated May 27, 1929 The Cambodian minister of public education,
Ponn, provides the names of other Lao monks who moved from
Laos to Phnom Penh for the primary purpose of studying Pali:
Sathou-Bonthon, Kho-Keo, Sathou-Pheng, Kho Thūng,
Sathou-Somchin, Am, Ung, Souk, and the novices: Neo, Tho,
Phoumy, and Uon. This relatively large contingent of monks and
novices who probably had the ability to speak some French and
some Khmer, and who had proven some previous study in Pali
suggests that the Pali school in Cambodia was more than an
ambitious colonial project that only existed on paper, but not
much more.
What I have not been able to discover is the impact these Lao
monks had on their Khmer classmates or to what extent their
studies (methods and texts) had on Lao monastic education
after they returned (if they indeed all returned) to Laos. The
exchange encouraged by the French and the royal families in
both countries seemed to have little lasting effect (in terms
of long-term intellectual exchanges, shifts in pedagogical
methods or printed texts) on monastic education in general.
One letter speaks to the lofty ambitions of these leaders as
to their quiet failures. On April 28, 1937 the Secretary
General of the Royal family sent a letter to the colonial
authorities stating that monks at the monastic school at Vat
Mai in Luang Phrabang were sending Phra Chan Souk and a novice
to Phnom Penh to make Lao translations of the “tipitaka” (it
does not specify which texts). I believe that this is most
likely the Lao monk Souk mentioned as moving to Cambodia to
study in 1929 in the letter above. “Phra Chan Souk” is most
likely a French mistake " it should read: Phra-a-chan Souk
[Phra Āchān Souk/Phra Ācāriya Sukha] or “Venerable Teacher
Souk.” The senior ranking monks of Laos would probably entrust
a project of this importance to a monk trained in Pali who
spoke Khmer and who had lived in Cambodia. The letter states
that Karpelès herself arranged this trip and its funds (of the
Institut bouddhique) in April 1935. Phra Chan-Souk and his
accompanying novice were given 300 piastre as an annual
stipend to cover their room and board and other needs in Phnom
Penh. Although, Mlle. Karpelès made the arrangements, the king
of Laos himself seemed to be the instigator of this trip since
he ordered 1,500 copies of the “tipitaka” (Sanskrit:
tripitaka) of which half would be distributed to local Lao
monasteries and the rest would be sold. This is a considerable
project considering any copy of the tipitaka would be at
least 35 volumes (often over 40 depending on how many pages
are in each volume). Penny Edwards notes that the Khmer text
is slightly different from the French translation of this
letter. The French translated “preah trey” (short for “preah
treybeidak” or tipitaka) and “vicchie pseing pseing” (various
subjects) as simply “Pali.” Perhaps “vicchie pseing pseing”
meant commentarial texts as opposed to canonical/tipitaka
texts, or it might refer to vernacular literature, meditation
and ritual, or other non-Buddhist subjects. It is unclear
still what was considered the “tripitaka” and since the
tripitaka edition in Cambodia was not completed in 1937, it
is unclear what would have been available for Lao translation.
The king of Laos sent Phra Chan-Souk to translate the Khmer
version of the tripitaka into Lao, but there is no evidence
that this project was even partially completed.
I have serious doubts that this project produced any texts or
that the Lao received a new edition of the tipitaka from
their Khmer colleagues. French records reveal that a “book
bus” was sent from Cambodia to Laos, but so far, I have not
been able to determine what was actually in that transport. It
certainly was not 1,500 copies of the tripitaka or even 1,500
single volumes. There has never been a “complete” tipitaka
translated into Lao (the nature the term tipitaka in
Southeast Asia is the subject of chapter six). This project,
by all accounts, was ever completed and there is no evidence
that any Lao translations of Khmer Pali texts were ever
distributed to Lao monasteries. I have never seen tipitaka
texts from Cambodia in any Lao monastery or archive. This is
not simply the result of unskilled monks, intellectual debate,
lack of royal and French funding, lack of materials, or
clerical bungling. The Second World War and the Japanese
occupation of the capitals of Southeast Asia certainly must
have inhibited this work as did the Khmer independence
movement of the late 1940s and early 1950s. If Phra Chan-Souk
indeed did go to Phnom Penh first in 1929 and Karpelès sent a
letter in 1935 for him to work on the tripitaka project in
1935 and he did not actually leave until 1937, we can see that
these projects were long term endeavors hampered by distance,
available experts, language, and funding. Regardless, these
contacts certainly must have produced valuable personal
relationships between the two sanghas.
In sum, over the entire colonial period, the Institut
bouddhique and the Royal Family of Laos never completed a
major publication project in Laos.  We cannot simply classify
the French as brutal oppressors or orientalist preservers in
Laos. French scholars were simply more invested in Cambodian
texts and practices. For example, the first Khmer dictionary
“commission” was initiated by the Institute in 1914, the
project started in 1929 (completed: 1938).  In 1931 a “full”
translation of the tipitaka (from Cambodian manuscripts) was
started (completed in 1969).  Scholars working for the
Institut bouddhique and the EFEO completed nothing comparable
in Laos. In fact, a project to produce an edition of the
tipitaka in Tham script in Vientiane was started and never
completed in 1957. The three volumes produced are no more than
an unedited copy of the Yuan script version from Northern
Thailand. It was not until the post-colonial period in the
1960s that any serious textual work was undertaken by French
scholars in Laos and then it was mostly work on vernacular,
not Pali, texts. In fact, it was a Lao scholar named (Mahā)
Sila Viravong, who promoted the study (especially grammar) of
canonical Pali in Laos as the Pali professor at Vat Ong Teu’s
Sangha College (Vithyālai Song) in the 1930s. He was trained
in Bangkok and had little commerce with French scholars.
However, even Sila Viravong edited and promoted more Lao
vernacular literature than Pali canonical or extra-canonical
material.  The colonial period neither signaled the return of
classical and canonical texts to monastic education nor did
the French or their Lao scholarly interlocutors suppress local
Buddhist customs in favor of Catholicism or an ideal,
translocal, ancient form of Theravada Buddhism.  The great
Lao-Khmer monastic exchange envisioned by Karpelès and members
of the colonial government and the EFEO never came to fruition
and ended with in the waning years of Indochine in the 1950s.
      However, Lao scholar monks were never entirely dependent on
French funding or intellectual vision. Work in the realm of
Buddhist education and textual production grew after
Indochine. Certainly, monks like Phra Chan Souk and Thong Di
mentioned above did not request Pali texts from Cambodia or
seek to study in Cambodia because they were forced by the
French. They were motivated to learn more, gain new
experiences, look for more textual material to improve their
practice and answer important ethical, epistemological and
ritual questions. However, their motivations and the fruits of
their intellectual labors did not fundamentally change the way
Lao monastics approached Buddhist learning. Cambodian texts,
rituals, and reformist interpretations of socially engaged
monkhood, French ideas of original Buddhism and the Pali canon
did not seriously alter the state of Lao monastic education.
This does not mean there were no tangible intellectual
achievements in twentieth century Lao Buddhist scholarship and
education. It just did not come from direct colonial
assistance. For example, on June 1, 1975 at Vat Mai, the
monastery school which Lefèvre described in 1895, proved that
intellectual activity was still alive and quite organized. On
that date the first Lao edition of the Tipi|aka in Lao script
and the Lao vernacular language (Phra Tripidok Sabab Lao). The
first volume contained the first four stories in the first
book, the Dīghanikāya, of the Suttanta Pitaka. Somdet Phra
Buddhachinorot Sakonmahāsanghapāmokkha of Vat Mai in Luang
Phrabang wrote the introduction and headed the project which
had a staff of 56 monks, scholars, and novices had begun in
1972.  These monks, scholars and novices studied and taught at
Vat Mai and other monasteries in the old royal capital. They
drew from the Thai script edition of the Tipitaka printed at
the end of the nineteenth century. Somdet Phra Buddhachinorot
Sakonmahāsanghapāmokkha stated that he consulted unnamed Thai
history texts printed as late as 1974. To my knowledge, a
“complete” set was never printed because of the fall of the
American supported Royalist government on December 2, 1975. By
June 1, 1975 the new Marxist government was already usurping
formal power through out the country. Luang Phrabang was
occupied by communist troops on August 23. Most monastic
publishing and printing was discontinued for over fifteen
years until a revival after 1990.
The first volume of the Tipitaka reflected the tenuous
relationships between the royalty and the new Marxist
government is seen in the introduction where the first volume
is dedicated to Prince Suvannabhumā (Souvanna Phouma) who had
been relatively anti-communist, as well as another prince who
would become the first communist president, Prince Suphānuvong
(Souphanouvong). Prince Suvannabhumā was stripped of power
soon after 1975. The Tipitaka project has yet to be
restarted. Laos is the only majority Buddhist “nation” in the
world without their own printed/published edition of the
Buddhist canon. As we will see in chapters four and five, this
is certainly does not mean that there is no foundation to Lao
Buddhist education.

THE OPIATE OF THE PEOPLE: MONASTIC EDUCATION IN MODERN
LAOS
In March, 1979 (Kūpā) Thammayāno, an 87 year old monk, quietly
floated on a homemade raft made of inflated rubber tires
across the Mekhong from Laos to Thailand.  This was no
ordinary monk. He was the head of the entire Lao sangha, the
Sangharāja, and his escape from Laos reflected the degree to
which the Lao Patriotic Front/Communist Party (Neo Lao Hak
Xat) had inhibited his ability to run the Buddhist ecclesia
and its educational institutions in the fledgling communist
polity. He was not alone, almost 10 percent of the Lao
population fled Pathet Lao rule between 1975 and 1980.  Laos
gained independence from the French in 1954. French scholars
remained in Laos, but central administrative control of
monasteries ceased to be enforced and it was not until the
Marxist takeover by the Pathet Lao party in 1975 that Buddhist
educational institutions were monitored and administered by
the state. The latter half of the twentieth century has seen a
significant decline in the population and patronage of Lao
monastic schools.
For the sake of space, I must be brief, but between 1954 and
1975, despite the rise in printing in Laos and the growth in
anthropological and economic interest in Laos by foreign,
especially American, scholars, there still are very few
descriptions of the day-to-day pedagogical practices among
Buddhists in Laos.  Several older Lao scholars who had been
(and some still are) monks in Laos in the 1960s told me that
education was relatively informal.  Interviews with them over
the past six years has greatly improved my understanding of
the period. I also interviewed a number of Lao monks who now
reside in Thailand (Ubon Ratchathani, Nong Khai, Mukhdahan,
Roi Et, Udon Thani, Nan, and other places) and in the United
States (especially in Providence, RI, Columbus, OH, and
Riverside, CA). Generally, I was told, that the abbot or
senior teacher would give sermons on general subjects and
novices, lay students, and young monks were expected to learn
how to memorize Pali and Lao prayers, learn how to read and
write the Tham and Lao scripts.  There is no evidence that
there was a formal curriculum for Lao Buddhist students until
very recently and that curriculum operates only at large urban
monasteries.
Although monastic education in Laos after 1954 can be called
informal at best, there are some basic institutional facts
that are available. Between 1959 and 1975 American “advisors”
were ubiquitous in Laos. They saw the monastery as one place
where the “hearts and minds” of the Lao populace could be
“won” and turned against the red menace. Buddhism had been
made the “state religion” by the royal government after
independence from the French in 1947.  An American scholar,
Joel Halpern, observed that the royal government used
“suppressive measures” to control Buddhist teachers who were
opposed to the government.   In May 1959 a royal ordinance
stated that all “correspondence between administrative levels
of the sangha had to pass through government channels. Even
the appointment of the Phra Sangharāja while made by the
monarch, was subject to procedures involving the Ministry of
Religious Affairs.” Gunn notes that the Americans had
encouraged these actions and had also actively recruited monks
in their fight against communist insurgents.
These efforts to modernize and internationalize the Lao sangha
were not merely the results of American anti-communist
machinations. In fact, they can be seen as connected to
indigenous Lao nationalism and the growth of nationalism and
“development” monks across the river in Thailand.  The most
significant Lao monastic national movement that was linked to
changes in monastic education was the Buddhawong Association
(Samākhom Buddhawong) and the Buddhist Youth School of Laos
(Honghīan Oplom Sinsilatham Buddhayaovason Lao) founded by
Phra Mahāpān Ānantho (lay name: Pān Kāeochumphū) on May
22,1959. This popular monk, especially in Vientiane, was born
into a rice farming family in rural Savannakhet in 1911. As a
young man he did just what Suzanne Karpelès was trying to
prevent, he traveled to Bangkok to study Buddhism. The efforts
of Phra Mahāpān Ānantho to reform Lao Monastic Education and
spread Buddhist teachings to Lao youth were certainly
influenced by his schooling in Thailand. These influences will
become obvious in chapters two and three. Phra Mahāpān is one
of the only Lao monks in the twentieth century to study at a
very high level in Thailand.  He studied Abhidhamma material
at Mahachulalongkorn Monastic University in Bangkok and
received the rank of Udombarinyā (which is one the highest
ranks in Thailand). There is no record that I have found that
stated he passed ecclesiastical examinations there, but it is
said that he studied up to the eigth level (prayok baet) at
Vat Chanthabuli in Vientiane, but since there were not regular
examinations there, I am not sure how his level was
determined. From his writings, of which there are several
short books clearly drawn from Thai textbooks for youth (see
chapters three and five), a book on Lao customs, and dozens of
collected sermons, he certainly was more interested in
spreading meditation practice and teaching social
responsibility, rather than Pali language or Buddhist history.
  This is confirmed in the newspaper account of his funeral
which stated that he studied nine years of vipassana
meditation which had experienced a popular revival in Thailand
at that time. In 1961, it is reported that he traveled to
India to participate in a worldwide Buddhist ecumenical
meeting and in 1963 he visited Cambodia.
In 1967 Phra Mahāpān summarized the school and association’s
objectives (his efforts at internationalism is seen in the
fact that this is a rare Lao texts published in Lao with a
short English summary).  The summary of the objectives reads:
“To support Buddhism and to maintain the good tradition and
culture of the nation; to study, research, plan and propagate
Dhamma to all organizations in the nation; to coordinate with
other organizations with the same aims; to study the ways how
to construct and restore the temples and public places; to
look for funds...; to assist and promote the youth to be able
to study Dhamma, culture and the traditions of the nation; to
help poor children...;to extend the activities at home and
abroad and to cooperate with all Buddhist Organizations all
over the world.”  To these ends they published 58 short
volumes Buddhawong magazine, ran a radio program once a week,
organized 300 public lectures, opened five branches of an
Abhidhamma school, opened a library with “about 3,000 books,”
opened an orphanage, opened dozens of vipassana mediation
centers, (ten in Vientiane alone) and opened 15 schools for
lay and ordained youth with approximately 3690 students (very
similar to Mahānikāya projects sponsored by monks at Wat
Mahāthāt and Wat Rakhang Ghositarāma in Bangkok in the 1950s).
Besides students, they also claimed to have 687 adult members
of the association spread out over 10 provinces (370 of which
lived in Vientiane). While these numbers are certainly
exaggerated and the Buddhawong Magazine was never a
substantial publication, it shows the extent of this project
which was neither the brainchild of the Americans nor the French.
Turning specifically to the schools connected with the
association, the first was founded on August 9, 1959 at Vat
Pālūang under the direction of Phra Mahāpān himself. He
claimed inspiration for the school from the Buddhist Youth
School of Sri Lanka which he had visited in 1958. Subsequent
branches were opened by Phra Mahā Khampui Sirimangalo, Phra
Mahā Inpeng Busaba, Phra Mahā Thǭng Khun Tuthathammo, Phra
Mahā Khampui Sisavat, Phra Mahā Khamlek, Phra Mahā 'uan, Phra
Mahā Sommai and many others between 1966 and 1971. Lay
scholars like Kāeo Viphakǭn and Bualy Chandara were also
involved in the school management. These schools started a
school newspaper, opened “Sunday Schools” (another Sri Lankan
influence), composed nationalistic Buddhist songs, put on
Buddhist “plays” and dances, started vipassana meditation
classes (similar to those growing in popularity in Cambodia,
Thailand, Burma, and Sri Lanka at the time), performed
charitable “social welfare,” and sponsored debates. These
activities were completely foreign to traditional Lao monastic
education.  The details of these activities are described in
the Lao text.  An addendum to this text inserted in the back
flap came out a year later in the form of a Lao language
poster distributed in Vientiane on March 5, 1972. The poster
advertised the Buddhawong Association’s and the Buddhist Youth
School’s support of the Lao nation and parliament. It calls
Buddhism the “national religion” (Sāsanā Phachām Chāt Lao). In
honor of their allegiance to the state and the youth of the
nation they put on a festival of traditional dance, music,
Buddhist chanting, sports, and a procession from the famous
stupa of Thāt Luang to the Parliament Building linking the
future of the nation with the future of Buddhist education.
This Buddhist youth education movement, the American
“clandestine” operations, as well as the efforts of the royal
government, had little long-term or wide-spread effect though
on the lives of students and teachers in monasteries. The
Abhidhamma schools are gone, the youth school branches have
been closed or transformed into traditional monastic secondary
schools, and the remnants of the Buddhawong Association are
seen at Wat Pālūang on the outskirts of Vientiane. Vipassana
classes have grown in popularity in the tourist areas, and at
certain “progressive” monasteries like Vat Nakǭn Noi and Vat
Pālūang in the Vientiane province, but are associated with
informal lay education than institutionalized monastic
education. In short, the curriculum was radically transformed
by these post-colonial movements.  Laos, especially the rural
areas, had a deeply depressed economy during these years,
rural and urban monastic schools operated largely undisturbed
until American bombs began falling by the thousands in the
late 1960s and early 1970s. Many of my Lao teachers attended
monastic schools in the 1960s and 70s before the Marxist
takeover. However, the rise of secular education under the
French and later royal interwar government and the “cave”
schools during run by the communists during American bombing
raids did draw students away from the monastery school.
Christian Taillard and Georges Condominas, working in Laos in
the early 1970s noted that the rural monastery was the major
center of education in villages, but its universal hold on
education in Laos was slowly being replaced.  Secular
education grew under the French between 1893 and 1949 and had
grown under the royal and communist governments between 1947
and the present have reduced the educational role of the
monastery.
In 1975, Laos, like Cambodia and Vietnam, was “liberated” by
or “fell” to Marxist rebels " the Pathet Lao. The Pathet Lao
were the Lao equivalent of the Vietminh/Vietcong in Vietnam
and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. However, their interpretation
of social reform and Marxism differed from their Indochinese
comrades. Looking specifically at their policies regarding
Buddhist education, the Pathet Lao (later the Lao People’s
Democratic Republic " Sāthārana Pasāson Pathet Lao) subsumed
the sangha under the Ministry of Education, Sports, and
Religious Affairs headed by Phoumi Vongvichit, while the party
was in the jungle fighting royalist and American forces. In
December 1975, when the party was on the verge of defeating
the American-backed royalist government they held the National
Congress of People’s Representatives. The president of the new
government, Kaysone Phomvihan, spoke to the congress, six of
whom were monks themselves:
To venerable monks, novices and other clergymen who should, in
order to contribute actively to reviving the spirit of
patriotic union, encourage the population to increase
production and to economize, help in educating people so as to
raise their cultural standard, contribute to persuading,
educating and correcting those who do not live virtuously or
misbehave, so that become good citizens.
This veiled warning to the sangha was quickly followed by a
series of restrictive reforms. First, the populace was banned
from offering food to monks and novices in the morning which
eliminated the primary way for the laity to make merit.
Second, the teaching of Buddhism was banned in all schools.
Third, members of the sangha were told to till the soil and be
self-sufficient that ostensibly removed their ritual, ethical,
and social significance since the mere act of tilling soil
involved breaking the very precepts that made a person a monk.
Pro-actively, the government forced members of the sangha to
attend monthly indoctrination seminars (about seven days long
with about 35 senior monks from the capital), where monks were
told that they should “actively contribute in transmitting the
policies of the Party and the State, educating young people
and providing medical care for the population.” They were also
encouraged to “study politics to consolidate their political
background and make it conform to progressive revolutionary
politics. This will enable them to more easily integrate
themselves into the revolutionary ranks|”  Martin Stuart-Fox
notes that many of these monks did “integrate” themselves. For
example, (Phra) Khamtam Depbūali announced to a delegation of
visiting Vietnamese monks at the annual Thāt Lūang festival
that “the Buddhist monk has the capacity to become a
revolutionary, sharing the tasks of the nation and people.”
Being a revolutionary did not preclude the monks from their
role as teachers or from their own study, but it did transform
it. Phoumi Vongvichit declared in October, 1976 that
Buddhist monks assigned to teach the people in rural areas
must understand the people who attend their sermons. They must
select an appropriate sermon to give the people in order to
change their line of thinking. If they use only Buddhist
politics coupled with examples from ancient times [i.e. royal]
it may be difficult for the people to understand them, and the
people may not be able to relate the example to present
reality. Therefore, they should mix the themes of current
politics and Buddhist politics in giving sermons and using
present examples|the policy of the Party and the government
is|to request Buddhist monks to give sermons to teach the
people and encourage them to understand that all policies and
lines of the Party and the government are in line with
teachings of the Lord Buddha so that the people will be
willing to follow them. Thus there will be no lazy people,
thieves, or liars in our country. If our Buddhist monks can do
this, it means that they are contributing to economic
construction.
This standard fear of “ancient times,” the condescending
attitude toward the general populace ability to understand the
“present reality,” and the call to “work hard” seen in all
revolutionary literature is too transparent to warrant
commentary, but it is important to note that the Lao Communist
Party, unlike its contemporaries in Cambodia did not
completely eliminate Buddhist education but attempted to
revolutionize it.  Monks were constantly informed that
Buddhism and socialism were congruent and complementary since
they promoted equality, communal sharing and the objective of
ending suffering. The Buddha himself sacrificed his own wealth
by leaving his family and palace for the sake of all
sentient/socialist beings; therefore, monks and novices should
walk in the Buddha’s footprints and work for the people.  The
teaching of Buddhism, even with a Marxist veneer, was
formalized and closely monitored. The sangha was re-organized
under the “Lao Union of Buddhists.” Monks were enlisted by the
government to teach the youth and adults how to read and write
as part of “campaign for the elimination literacy.”  They also
were told to head public seminars to encourage the people to
trust the government and wholeheartedly incorporate their new
policies into their daily lives.
In order to ensure adherence to these policies, the government
initiated a two-step program to educate the monks and novices
and dismantle their power base and structure. The government
saw that years of war and lack of investment by the French
colonial and post-independence (1949) Royal government had led
to a dearth of well educated monks (although we have no
statistics of how many “educated” monks there were before this
period).  There was no overall organization for Lao Buddhist
education. Each monastery largely educated its monks and
novices in its own way based on the texts available, ritual
and homiletic demands, and the particular lineage of teachers
and teachings passed down from generation to generation.
While there are certain similarities that bind Lao Buddhist
teachings and teachers together, there was no formal
institutional unity, curriculum or educational governance.
Therefore, the Party decided to formalize Buddhist schooling
while infusing it with socialist teachings. What the party
failed to realize is that they weren’t returning to a pristine
pre-colonial state, but that Lao monastic education had never
been formally organized.
Vat Ong Teu, being a traditional center of Buddhist education,
was particularly seen as a place that needed reform.  It was
the largest single monastic school with 341 students in 1979.
First, monks were commanded to submit their books to the Party
for censorship. Manuscripts were largely ignored since most
monks and certainly most Party officials could not read them
in the “ancient” (Tham) script. The texts had to be inline
with what Lafont calls the “three principles " not to sin
[i.e. the five precepts against lying, stealing, sexual
misconduct, inebriation and killing]; to increase one’s
excellence; and to purify one’s own heart " all of which are
compatible with Marxism-Leninism” (Lafont, 1982: 155). They
were banned from teaching the concept of karma or merit to
ensure that the people did not waste their resources on giving
food to monks and to the upkeep of statues and temples.
Furthermore, they were banned from teaching about heavens,
hells or phī (ghosts or spirits). The Buddhist cosmology based
on 33 heavens and 8 hells occupied gods, goddesses, munificent
and nefarious ethereal spirits was criticized and the teaching
based on temple murals which often depicted these worlds and
their various fantastic denizens was forbidden. All monastic
schools, including Vat Ong Teu, were “given directives”
according to the revolutionary congress “whereby they will
function in conformity with the orientation of national
education.”
One can understand why (Kupā) Thammayāno would subject his 87
year old frame to the currents of the Mekhong to escape this
radical overhaul of the sangha and the removal of his power.
Rumors that 20 monks had been executed by the Party in
Champassak province in Southern Laos in May, 1978 and that two
other monks critical of the Party had “disappeared” may have
also contributed to his fear. Not only did monks like
Thammayāno flee, many gave up the robes or entering the
monkhood altogether. After 1975 there was a significant
decrease in the numbers of monks in Laos. Martin Stuart-Fox
notes that
Pagodas left with no monks were taken over as [secular]
schools. Some were even reported to have been used on occasion
as barracks and storage barns. Buddha images and other ritual
objects from these monasteries were consigned to museums|An
important overall effect of government measures was to break
down the key relationship between monks and the lay community
that had sustained the position of the Sangha in traditional
lay society. Monks continued to preach the Buddhist Dharma,
but, as one monk put it, ‘they are always expected to throw in
a bit of communist ideology too.’ Refugees claimed that monks
complied out of fear: even if there was no known PL official
present, it was taken for granted that there would be some
informer in the audience. The traditional Pali formula of
homage to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha was all but replaced
by repetition of the five ideals of the Lao People’s Democatic
Republic.
The most recent governmental guidelines to religion in Laos is
summarized by the “Lao Front for National Construction” (LFNC)
which is a branch of the Lao communist government and manages
affairs for the relatively new “Department of Religious
Affairs.” In 2003 it published, oddly enough in English versus
Lao, its new guidelines for Lao religious institutions written
by Maha Khampheuy Vannasopha. These policies are based on
Article 9 of the Constitution approved on August 15, 1991
which was updated in 1995. The English publication most likely
reflects the need to convince the World Trade Organization and
the United Nations of its promotion of civil rights and
religious freedom. Indeed the second half of the 65 page
document has letters of support from Evangelical Christian,
Bahai, Cambodian Buddhist, and Catholic churches operating in
Laos. They are explicit attempts to prove that the Lao
government does not oppress religion. As the publication
states, religion is seen as a useful part of the LFNC’s
efforts to “enhance the tradition of patriotism, loving the
regime [sic], make people be proud of the nation, create a
spirit of self-reliance, self-autonomy, enhance unity among
the entire Lao people including the Lao expatriates.” Although
this document discusses Islamic, Christian, Taoist, and other
religious institutions in Laos, its main focus is on Buddhism.
In poor English, it states that Buddhist education is
important because
temples used to play a partial role for teaching; it was a
place to educate the public to behave themselves in dharma, to
be kind, hospitable towards each other and avoid bad
behavior...Under the light of the revolution, the Monks and
Buddhists have strictly behaved by the dharma principle of
Buddha; have jointed in the nationalism procession, contended
with the imperialism and colonialism for national liberation.
In the past 26 years [1975-2001], the Buddhist priest have
strengthened the patriotic tradition, joined in the protection
and the development of the country, especially playing a part
in the propagation of party and government policies, protected
and renovated places of worship, temples and valuable ancient
items, have also participated in education, public health and
other community activities.
Institutionally the LFNC instituted a new policy to issue
identity cards to all monks, novices, and nuns (as well as
Christian and Islamic clergy) and register all “movable and
immovable properties” at places of religious practice.
Speaking of the Lao government’s role in protecting Buddhism
and all religious groups, the text continues “the
propaganda"training of the Central Party Committee and Lao
Front for National Construction are assigned to cooperate to
lay down the contents and education methods to enable a
suitable system to advise all sectors.” Article 14
specifically states that “the printing of books, documents for
dissemination, signs and various plates related to religion
shall be authorized by the Ministry of Information and Culture
with the approval of the Central Committee” of the LFNC.
Furthermore, “it is forbidden for believers in the Lao PDR to
publish or possess books, documents, photographs, signs, video
cassettes, VCD, films or other media having characteristics of
superstitions, pornography, distortions of truth, slandering
or obstructing the progress of the nation.” In addition to
these restrictions, all monastic building, communication with
foreigners, study tours, etc. must be approved by the LFNC.
These institutional changes are reminiscent, although more
ecumenical and with different rhetoric, of the policies of
King Phothisarat and the Résident Supérieure of France.
However, just like the institutional changes brought on by
their predecessors, the LFNC’s policies have not changed
seriously the way that Buddhism is taught or the choice of
texts and methods on the ground.
Today, the government will not allow the sangha institutional
freedom and monks are not freely allowed to enter the monkhood
without permission (nunhood, buat mae chī or buat mae sin, has
all but disappeared in Laos"altough it is growing among Lao
Buddhists in the United States); however, more monks are
entering monastic schools in Vientiane, Savannakhet and Luang
Phrabang and even rural monasteries are frequented more often.
  The active sermon tradition of the pre-communist era has been
curtailed and education in many rural areas has been replaced
by ritual (which certainly have educational content as well as
we will see below) occasions like funerals, weddings, house
blessings and calendrical rituals like the Bun Bān Fai and Bun
Phra Vet, but there are signs of greater activity in the
educational practices of monks. Government policy recently has
remained strict in presentation, but weak in actual
implimentation. For example, recently monks in Vientiane, as
well as Savannakhet and Pakxe have published printed copies of
their sermons (Pali: desanā) alongside the more common ritual
liturgical handbooks. Monks at these monasteries tell me that
there has been no government interference or crackdown. As we
saw in the introduction, personal notebooks are used in
teaching monastic students. These are not subject to review,
restriction or approval by the government. Many monks and lay
scholars have been involved in the collecting, cataloguing,
cleaning, copying, preserving and storing of palm-leaf
manuscripts funded by German, French and Japanese research
organizations and corporations. I sat with the Minister of
Information and Culture recently at a Lao Buddhist ceremony to
honor the preservation of manuscripts at Vat Nā Sǭn near
Vientiane. He participated in the rituals and gave a speech
thanking the monks and scholars for their efforts. There was
no explicit oppression and the Minister himself, like most lay
participants, could not read the Tham script of the
manuscripts or understand the Pali chanting. Several monks and
former monks (in private) have told me that they feel no
restrictions, although they did in the 1970s and 80s, on their
teachings.
There is still a mood that they should not question the
legitimacy of the Party. However, monastic sermons and
writings according to pedagogical manuscripts, Buddhist
narratives, eye-witness accounts, and chronicles have
consistently reflected an attitude of support for the ruling
elite in Laos. Lao monastic education has survived based in
part on the ability of most teachers and students to stay out
of politics (although as Patrice Ladwig, forthcoming, will
show, not all Lao monks stayed away from politics). Although
there were efforts to both politicize Lao monks by the ruling
elite and efforts by monks like Mahāpān Anantho and others to
offer their “Buddhist” voice to politicians, there never has
been a major sustained Lao “liberation” Buddhist movement, as
seen in Islam and Catholicism in other historical contexts, or
Theravadan monks at different periods in Sri Lanka, Cambodia,
Burma, and Thailand. This does not mean that Buddhism is by
nature apolitical in Laos or other places, indeed it is often
highly political and revolutionary in many Buddhist countries
and cultures. However, in Laos, aside from some isolated local
rebellions led by lay “holy men” (phū mī bun) in the
late-nineteenth and early twentieth century in Northeast
Thailand near the present-day Lao border there is not simply
no evidence that links Buddhism to rebellion in Laos. These
holy men were not teachers or students in monasteries.  In
short, Lao monastic educators have never fostered large scale
or consistent rebellion against king, colonialist, or
communist. Many though did express their political
disatisfaction by leaving the country, and many Lao-American
monastic communities are particularly anti-Communist.
Still, despite institutional organization Lao monks continue
teaching according in similar ways that they have for 500
years. Buddhist pedagogical methods and texts have been little
affected by Marxist institutional reform. The Lao sangha has
had a long history of overcoming reform, oppression, economic
and demographic declines, and government interference. In
fact, one wonders of the workings of the Lao Communist Party
is much different or any more damaging to religious freedom
than periodic royal reforms and French colonial restrictions
since the sixteenth century. In order to understand the lives
monastic of teachers and students in post-1975 Laos, we have
to listen to them.


I HAVE MORE ON THE PERIOD FROM 1975-present, but not directly
relevant. I will be in a book I am writing that should be
published in a year or so.

NOTES:
   For a basic description of French administration of public
education in Indochine see the Catholic Encyclopedia, I also
thank Mme. Vachier at the Centre des Archives d’Outre-Mer in
Aix-en-Provence for suggestions. French Catholic missionaries
were also not as active in Laos as in neighboring Vietnam.
Administratively, Laos was included in the Vicariate Apostolic
of Siam until the French made Laos an official colony. After
1899, Mgr. Cuaz, the “Bishop of Hermopolis Minor,” was placed
in charge of the Lao territory, although, he probably never
set foot in the country. The Catholic Church reports that as
of 1910 there were 10,682 Catholics in Laos and 33 priests (29
of whom were European). There was only one seminary with eight
students, 54 churches and chapels, 35 schools with 797 pupils;
22 orphanages with 304 “inmates.” The Catholic Encyclopedia,
Volume VII, 1910, Bibliotheca Sinica: Essai d'une
Bibliographie des ouvrages relatifs   la presqu'îte
indo-chinoise in T'oung P'ao Archifs pour servir   l'étude de
l'Aise Orientale (2nd series), IV (Leyden,1903").  Nouvelle
Géographie Universelle, VIII (Paris, 1883), de Lanessan, La
Colonisation française en Indo-Chine (Paris, 1895), which
furthermore gives an excellent account of the state of the
French possessions toward the close of the nineteenth century;
Henri d'Orléans, Autor du Tonkin (Paris,1894), tr. Pitman,
Lemire, Le Laos annamite (Paris, 1894); Tunier, Notice sur la
Laos français (Paris, 1900),  Madrolle, Indo-Chine
(guide-book, Paris, 1902); Le Blant, Les martyrs de
Extréme-Orient et les persécutions antiques (Arras, 1877);
Louvet, La Cochinchine religieuse (2 vols, Paris, 1885);
Dépierre, Situation de catholicisme en Cochinchine   la fin du
XIXe siècle (Saigon, 1900).
   Stuart-Fox, The Kingdom of Lan Xang, 35.  There was a school
to educate Lao administrators in 1928. Before this time, most
administrative staff positions were held by ethnic Vietnamese
in Laos. At its height the French colonial administration had
less than 200 people involved in running the country, many
fewer involved in any form of teaching.
   Sila Viravong, Pavatsāt Lao, 248-250. Of course, ethnic
groups that did not traditionally go to Buddhist monastic
rituals and family events (Hmong, Khamti, Akha, among others)
were neither part of monastic nor French education. For more
information on the formation of Lao national identity
politically and culturally in pre-colonial period see two
articles by Volker Grabowsky : “Forced resettlement campaigns
in northern Thailand during the early Bangkok period.” Orient
Extremus 37.1 (1994): 45-107 [reprinted Journal of the Siam
Society 87.1 (1999): 45-86] and “Origins of Lao and Khmer
national identity: the legacy of the early nineteenth
century.” In Nationalism and cultural revival in Southeast
Asia: perspectives from the centre and the region, ed. Sri
Kuhnt-Saptodewo, Volker Grabowsky, and M. Großheim (Wiesbaden:
Harrassowitz Verlag, 1997).
   One of the first scholars that explicitly noted the limited
effectiveness of the French in Laos was Charles Keyes, The
Golden Peninsula (New York: MacMillan, 1977): 101.
   Recent publications trace the history of the EFEO in detail.
See especially Catherine Clémentin-Ojha et Pierre-Yves
Manguin, Un siècle pour l’Asie: L’École français
d’Extrême-Orient, 1898-2000 (Paris: Les editions du pacifique
et l’École français d’Extrême-Orient, 2001). See also Louis
Malleret, Le cinquantenaire de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient: Compte rendu des fêtes et cérémonies (Hanoi:
L’École français d’Extrême-Orient, 1953). The EFEO started in
Hanoi where it replaced the Mission archéologique d’Indochine.
For a brief history of the EFEO in Indochine see Michel
Lorrillard, “100 ans de recherche de l”EFEO au Laos” a talk
given at the French embassy in Vientiane on June 15, 2001.
Anne Hansen pointed out to me that there were French scholars
(although not strictly Buddhologists) working on ritual and
use of texts in Cambodia. For example, Leclere (an amateur
Buddhologist and ethnographer), Guesdon (who wrote on
literature) and Pavie (who collected stories).
   Louis Finot, “Recherches sur la littèrature laotienne,”
Bulletin de l’École français d’Extrême-Orient 17.5 (1917).  In
1918 he also surveyed the royal library in Luang Prabang.
Other EFEO scholars like Lunet de Lajonquière, George Coedès,
Auguste Barth, Éveline-Porée Maspero, Henri Maspero, André
Bareau, Ginette Terral-Martini, Alfred Foucher, Paul Levy,
Suzanne Karpelès, Henri Parmentier, Pierre Dupont, Henri
Deydier, Jean-Louis Claeys, Pierre-Bernard Lafont, Madeleine
Colani, Antoine Cabaton, Paul Mus, Charles Archaimbault, Henri
Marchal, François Gros, Georges Condomindas, Paul Guilleminet,
Louis Gabaude, Étienne Aymonier, François Bizot, Olivier de
Bernon, François LaGirarde, Anatole-Roger Peltier, and most
recently Michel Lorrillard have worked in Laos or on related
projects in Cambodia and Siam (Thailand). The Institut
bouddhique initially had offices in Luang Phrabang and
Vientiane in 1931-1932.
   The six volume collection by members of the Mission Pavie
(1879-1895) and the work of the non-French Karl Izikowitz in
the 1930’s discusses how local animistic practices of the
Hmong, Sedang, Moi and other Lao hill-tribes became mixed with
Buddhist practices and how monks took on the role of magician,
appeaser of local deities, doctor and secular and religious
teacher in Lao villages. Still, there were no systematic
ethnographies written by foreign researches in Laos before the
1960s.
   In 1901 one EFEO affiliated scholar, Alfred Lavallée, did
visit the rural region of Boloven (which soon became a great
center for coffee production and so there may have been an
ulterior motive for his trip) and documented the languages and
wrote a basic ethnography of 11 different ethnic groups. See
Lorrillard, “100 ans de recherche de l”EFEO au Laos.” Until
the recent work on Vat Phū in Southern Laos and the Thāt Luang
in Vientiane, most archaeologists worked in Central Vietnam
and at the great temple complex of Angkor in Cambodia. In
fact, the first major EFEO project in Laos was to document all
the Cambodian monuments therein. Early on (and often today)
Lao religion, culture, and art was seen as secondary and even
derivative of Siam and Cambodia. There was little in the way
of ethnography in Laos until the 1960s. Most early work by
Charles Batteur, Henri Parmentier, Jean-Louis Claeys, and
Madeleine Colani was in the realm of restoration, pottery,
imagery, and architecture.
   Catherine Clémentin-Ojha, Un siècle pour l’Asie, 164.
   Peter Skilling offered a history and criticism of the use of
the term “Theravada” in describing Buddhism in Southeast Asia
at a meeting in Singapore (August, 2004) a published version
is forthcoming.
   Catherine Clémentin-Ojha, Un siècle pour l’Asie, 165. My
translation: “the study of Buddhist theology by the rational
teaching of ancient, sacred languages, Pali and Sanskrit, and
the knowledge indispensable for the comprehension and
explanation of religious texts.”
   Catherine Clémentin-Ojha, Un siècle pour l’Asie, 166. My
translation: “they would finish a complete edition of the
Buddhist Canon based on Pali texts (particularly from the
texts edited by the Pali Text Society in London).”
   A number of publications document this history. See for
example, Philipp Almond, The British Discovery of Buddhism
(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1988), Anne Blackburn,
Buddhist Learning and Textual Practice in Eighteenth-Century
Lankan Monastic Culture (Princeton: A Princeton University
Press, 2001), Donald Lopez, ed., Currators of the Buddha
(Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1996), William
Halbfass, India and Europe (Albany: State University of New
York Press,1988), and the classic by Raymond Schwab, La
Renaissance Orientale (1950) [Engl. transl. The Oriental
Renaissance. Europe's Rediscovery of India and the East,
1680-1880] (New York: Columbia University Press, 1984).
   “Annual Report,” Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient XXX (1931): 623. Penny Edwards provides a
concise history of French scholars Indology background in “Taj
Angkor: Enshrining l’Inde in le Cambodge,” in France and
‘Indochina’ Cultural Representations, eds. Robson and Yee,
13-27 (Lanham: Lexington University Press, 2005). One of the
largest projects the EFEO ran in Laos was the restoration of
the Thāt Luang in Vientiane. M. Batteur and M.L. Fombertaux
headed this project. Even today, restoration remains a
fundamental part of French scholarship in Laos. This
restoration of monuments in Luang Phrabang and Champasak has
been taken over in the past ten years by UNESCO.
   This work is continued today most notably by Bizot, Gabaude,
Lorrillard, Becchetii, Peltier, as well as German scholars
like Harald Hundius, Oskar von Hinüber, Patrice Ladwig,
American scholars like Charles Keyes and Peter Koret, the
British scholar David Wharton, and Thai scholars like Wajuppa
Tossa, Rujaya Abhakorn, Sommai Premchit, Udom Roonruangsri,
Prakong Nimmanahaeminda, Aroonrut Wichienkeo and Balee
Buddharaksa. They have worked alongside Lao scholars like Dara
Kanlaya, Kongdeuane Nettavong, Thongsa Sayavongkhamdy,
Thongxuey Uthumpon, Boonleut Thamajak, Khamhoung Sacklokham,
Nou Senesounthone, Douangdeuane Bounyavong, and Venerable Sali
Kanthasilo.
   In brief, the Preservation of Lao Manuscripts Program (PLMP)
with the financial and scholarly assistance of Dr. Dr. Harald
  Hundius (Director of the Joint Preservation Program), the
DAAD (German Academic Exchange Service) and the Toyota
Foundation, has surveyed almost 600 monasteries in Laos. When
I was reading manuscripts in the archive, a total of over
270,000 fascicles have been surveyed and over 30,000 fascicles
had been microfilmed onto 500 rolls of 35 mm film. The
majority of manuscripts have been found in Vientiene, Luang
Pabang and Champasak provinces (54,130, 64,809, and 48,536
respectively) , while smaller remote provinces like Attapeu,
Phongsali and Udomxai have considerably fewer (4,806, 4,125,
and 6,497 fascicles respectively). In addition to the survey
and microfilming, which continues at present (for example, the
PLMP recently released photos and a field report of their
survey efforts in the far north of the country), the PLMP
regularly produces a newsletter in Lao (15 volumes to date)
and has published a pamphlet in English and Lao outlining
their activities and goals.  They also train local monks, nuns
and lay people in basic preservation techniques.  This work
has been recognized by UNESCO and the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs of the Federal Republic of Germany. For the scholar
interested in locating specific manuscripts this program has
offered an excellent place to begin the search.  Paper copies
from microfilm (although time consuming to produce because
there is only one viewing and photocopying machine) are of
good quality and the provenance, dates, scribe’s name, date of
survey, date of microfilming, etc. are included on a cover
sheet (when available)(in Lao).  For those manuscripts not
microfilmed there are several catalogues specific to province.
  With written permission from the director and supervision by
Ajahn Boonleut or Ajahn Thong, a researcher may examine any of
the manuscripts housed in the library’s manuscript room, where
s/he will find hundreds of fascicles held in glass cases
wrapped in white cotton bags. Although the viewing room lacks
the necessary protective measures, such as gloves and filtered
lighting, air-conditioning has recently been installed and the
glass cases are locked. The program finished its work in 2005
after fifteen years, but has spawned a number of smaller
programs. The culmination of their work was seen at the first
conference on “Literary Heritage of Laos” was held in
Vientiane, the capital of the People’s Democratic Republic of
Laos, from January 8-10, 2004. Organized by Sisouphan
Doungmany, Harald Hundius, Dara Kanlaya, Kongdeuane Nettavong,
Oliver Raenchen, Khammak Vongsakda and Khanthamaly Yangnouvong
under the auspices of the Lao Ministry of Information and
Culture, the Japanese Toyota Foundation, and the German
Ministry of Foreign Affairs the conference brought together
the most active scholars in Lao Literature from Burma,
Cambodia, China, France, Germany, Japan, Laos, Thailand, the
United States and Vietnam. Living up to the conference’s
subtitle: “Preservation, Dissemination, and Research
Perspectives,” the 41 speakers addressed wide-ranging issues.
Its collected papers were published in 2005 by the National
Library of Laos and edited by Hundius. His introduction gives
the latest report on manuscript preservation.
   Even though Karpelès’ wanted to draw Lao students away from
Bangkok, she and the teachers at the Pali schools in Phnom
Penh and Champassac were not anti-Siamese in their choice of
source texts for the Pali examinations. In fact, the
examinations designed by King Mongkut in Bangkok and those in
Cambodia were nearly identical. They both emphasized
commentarial over canonical texts like the Magaladīpani, the
Vissuddhimagga, the Abhidhammasaṅgaha, and the
Samantapāsādikā. However, the late texts like the Pannāsa
Jātaka and the Pathamasambodhi composed in Northern Thailand
were part of the Cambodian and Lao examinations are not the
early Siamese examinations. In general, there is a long
tradition of Lao monks studying in Thailand and vice versa. In
recent years many Lao students have been crossing the Mekhong
to study in large monastic schools in Mukhtahan, Ubon
Ratchathani, Udon Thani, Nong Khai, Sakorn Nakorn, Nakorn
Panom, Chiang Mai, Nan, and Chiang Rai. I met several students
in Savannakhet who had purchased monastic school books in
Mukhtahan (Thailand) and in Vientiane many monks had studied
in Bangkok. At my monastery in Ubon Ratchathani (Thailand)
there were two visiting monks from Laos. There are comparably
fewer monks studying or teaching at Mahāchulalongkorn and
Mahāmakuta Monastic Universities in Bangkok and their branch
campuses in Chiang Mai are from Laos. There are photographs of
Lao monks and royalty visiting Cambodia in Penny Edwards
(ed.), History of the Buddhist Institute (Phnom Penh: Buddhist
Institute, 2005). I thank Penny Edwards and Anne Hansen for
sending photographic evidence of these trips to me.
   “Annual Report,” Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient XXXI 1-2 (1932): 334.
   Unfortunately I have been unable after a few years to find a
copy of this book. I have a strong belief that it is a
collection of Pali prayers (Lao: mon; Pali: manta; Sanskrit:
mantra) that were and are common in Lao temples. These short
chanting guides are still printed for and in Lao temples
through out the country. I have been able to collect about 15
different versions of them. If the text was in Lao, it may
have been an early copy of “suphasit” or pithy moral maxims
still common today or “phū sǭn lan” (grandfather teachers
grandchild) a collection of Lao moral maxims common in
manuscript and printed form.
   “Annual Report,” Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient XXXI 1-2 (1932): 334.
   A visitor can still see the abandoned railway project and
bridges among the islands (Sī Pan Done) of the Mekhong along
the Cambodian border. The old French hospital, school, and
administrative buildings are still standing. There are several
well preserved French plantation homes along the river in the
region, especially in the small town of Champasak near Vat
Phū. Indeed, Bassac was on the direct road and river between
Phnom Penh and Vientiane. Ibid., 335.
   Søren Ivarson is writing on this period. See his forthcoming
“Bringing Laos into Existence.”
   Karpelès had a long career in Buddhist Studies before
working in Laos. She had worked with Sylvain Lévi, Louis
Finot, and Alfred Foucher on the French translation of the
Sanskrit and Tibetan manuscripts of the Lokeśvaraśataka in
1919, on the Sri Lankan and Siamese manuscripts of the
Kanikhāvitaranī in 1922-23, and on a Siamese version of the
Ramāyāna in 1925. Sadly she was taken out of her post because
of anti-semitic laws instituted by the Nazis in France in 1941
(see Un siècle pour l’Asie). I value Anne Hansen comments on
this statement. She believes that Karpelès’s personal
correspondence reflects a scholar who was truly invested in
making Pali texts available to her Khmer interlocutors, but
was, like many scholars, short on funding and needed to
convince her French colonial bosses that they needed to fund
humanities projects for practical economic and military
reasons. Therefore, her public writing might have been partly
rhetorical in order to convince the French administration to
fund her decidedly unpractical projects. Anne Hansen’s
forthcoming book on Cambodian Buddhist History (1860-1930),
especially chapter four, has much more in depth information
about Karpelès. Penny Edwards is also writing a major
biography. I thank David Chandler for his valuable comments on
the lives of Karpelès and Paul Mus. In her forthcoming
(University of Hawaii Press, 2006) book, Hansen writes:
The idea of Pali education was inherently compatible with
their own scholastic experiences, and the educational system
they promoted to members of the administration was drawn from
Khmer and Siamese design.  Judging from their correspondence,
their interest in promoting Pali education in Cambodia
probably had as much to do with their own personal perceptions
of its importance as with their arguments concerning the use
of Pali education as an instrument for stemming Dhammayut
influence and assuring colonial security.  In reading through
years of their letters, particularly between and by Coedès and
Karpelès, including some of the hand-scrawled drafts of royal
ordinances they wrote on behalf of King Sisowath, it was not
entirely clear that their own perspectives always coincided
with the rhetoric they presented to the Résident Supérieur.
They had devoted their entire lives to studying the Buddhist
production of meaning and it hardly seemed necessary to
explain why it was important " except that they had to find
ways to elicit support and funding from an administration with
competing claims for its resources” (Chapter four, cited with
permission of the author).
   Penny Edwards comments on this section of the chapter were
extremely valuable. She kindly supplied me with several
documents and photographs of Lao royal tours in Cambodia which
enriched this chapter considerably. Photographs of the opening
of the Institut bouddhique in Laos and the visit of the Lao
prince Pethsarat to the Institute in Phnom Penh are reprinted
in her translation/edition of the history of the Buddhist
Institute (2005). This book also contains the original Khmer
text written by Chheat Sreang, Yin Sombo, Seng Hokmeng, Pong
Pheakdeyboramy, and Saom Sokreasey.  In a personal
communication, Edwards emphasizes that Karpelès did not simply
dictate Lao and Cambodian Buddhist policy. She was influenced
by the Lao king who had been impressed by the manuscript
library in Phnom Penh on his visits to Cambodia. Most likely
due to the king’s encouragement she modeled the institute’s
manuscript library on Phnom Penh’s. Edwards further emphasizes
that one of the most common tendencies of scholarship on the
French colonial period is for scholars to underestimate the
agency of Lao scholars and policy makers.  One example of that
agency is seen in a letter from April 24, 1932 in which Paul
Pasquier, an assistant to the Résident supérieure in Phnom
Penh, advises Karpelès that he had not been able to name the
president of the religious section in Luang Phrabang because
he had not yet received the nomination from the Lao royal
Sisavangvong. The French did not merely assign positions
according to their own self-interests, but followed the advice
of the Lao ruling elite. The Institut bouddhique was not the
original name of this organization. In 1923 though, under the
direction of Karpelès, an Institut for the Study of the Small
Vehicule (i.e. Theravada--Institut our l’etude du bouddhisme
du petit Véhicule) was established under the patronage of King
Sisavangvong of Laos and King Sisovath Monivong of Cambodia.
See Jean-Pierre Drège, L’École française d’Extrême-Orient et
le Cambodge 1898-2003 (Paris: L’École français
d’Extrême-Orient, 2003): 41-42.
   The full description of these ceremonies is found in the
annual report of the Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient XXIX (1930): 519-521.
   “Annual Report,” Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient XXXI 1-2 (1932): 335. My translation:
“inevitably [feel] the attraction of Bangkok and each year Lao
monks have gone to the capital of Siam for religious studies.
The creation of a Pali school in Bassac would naturally remedy
this unfortunate situation and retain among us these young men
that want to devote themselves to the study of the sacred
language.”
   Ibid., 337-338. My translation from: “Le champ d’action de
ce nouvel organisme s’étend, non seulement sur tout le
Cambodge et le Laos, mais aussi sur une grande partie des
provinces du Sud-Ouest de la Cochinchine, où plus de 200.000
âmes demeurées foncièrement cambodgiennes et profondément
attachées au sol natal, continuent, en dépindes nombreuses
épreuves qu’elles subrient,   pratiquer avec ferveur les
préceptes du Buddha. Pour les aider   conserver intact ce
pieux héritage de leurs ancêtres, l’Institut leur a apporté
l’appui moral dont elles avaient besoin, en établissant une
liaison constante entre elles et leurs frères du Cambodge.
Pour le Laos et le royaume khmèr, l’Institut s’efforce de
renouer les relations de sympathie intellectuelle qui
existaient autrefois entre ces deux pays.”
   “Annual Report,” Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient XXXI 1-2 (1932): 341.
   My translation: “to develop, in light of an intellectual and
moral recovery of the people, the monastery school where the
children receive the first parts of their education.”
   In addition to this hierarchical clarification, the French
requested (although I have not found much evidence that this
rule was ever enforced) that each monastery reported the
number of monks and novices that resided at the monastery plus
the number of school-aged children that used the monastery for
education. In addition to reporting the population of the
monastic school, the abbot was supposed to report any
infraction to the rules (moral or civil), and any movement of
monks/novices/students from one monastery to another. The only
exception to these rules was for Luang Phrabang, where monks
in the city were instructed (ideally in this code, of which we
do not have evidence, was actually known or read by the monks)
to follow the traditional rules of the King of Laos based on
approval of the French governor (Bulletin de l’École français
d’Extrême-Orient  XXIX (1930): 529.
   Ibid., 522. It is interesting to note that the French rules
(called the “Arrêté portant réglementation du clercé
bouddhique du Laos”) also asked the monasteries to report the
number of Buddha (or other) images they had in their
possession, as well as the condition of the monastery. I
assume this was designed to designate funds for repair or
research.
   Ibid., 524. My translation from: “Tout religieux (bonze ou
novice) est tenu, sous peine des sanctions prévues par les
règlements religieux, d’observer la discipline et les règles
bouddhiques, d’étudier l’enseignement du Bouddha et de
faciliter la tâche du chef de pagode. Deux ans après son
admission dans l’ordre du clergé bouddhique, tout novice doit
savoir lire et écrire le laotien, et tout bonze doit savoir
lire le Tham. Tout religieux qui ne pourra pas justifier de
ces connaissances sera exclu de l’ordre. Le chef de pagode est
tenu de faire fonctionner par lui-même ou par les bonzes
désignés par lui, une école de pagode où les enfants des
villages environnants viennent apprendre l’écriture laotienne
et le calcul.”
   Anne Hansen has recently argued that in Cambodia European
influence on Pali literature and educational reform has been
over emphasized. She writes “the influence of colonial market
forces helped to change the nature of sacred writing in
Cambodia, the turn to print during this period was prompted as
much or perhaps more by the force of the “Pali imaginaire”
than by European ideas and economic factors.  In other words,
Buddhist tropes of purification, which took on new meaning for
young Khmer monks and scholars during this period, led to new
ideological and aesthetic imperatives for printing Buddhist
texts; printed texts, produced through modern rationalist
methods of translation, came to represent purified texts,
which simultaneously led their readers to greater
opportunities for purifying their knowledge and purifying
their behavior.” Hansen, unpublished draft of a paper
delivered at the Conference of the International Association
of Buddhist Studies, London, August 31, 2005.
   Bizot ties the modernization of monastic education in
Cambodia to two forces: 1) the Siamese/Thai Thammayut
(Dhammayuttika Nikāya) sect’s influence and; 2) French
privileging of Pali canonical texts and Vinaya orthodoxy over
protective rites and vernacular texts. He notes that many of
the Pali texts translated into Khmer in the colonial period
were based on Pali Text Society editions from Britain. Bizot,
Le figuier   cinq branches (Paris: L’École français
d’Extrême-Orient, 1976): introduction.  See also Hansen,
forthcoming and Edwards, The Buddhist Institute, 13-32.
   The talent of Thong Di and the reason he needed to study in
Cambodia is attested in the rest of the letter which reads:
Mais d’après les articles 12 et 14 de l’Ordonnance Royale du
13 Aout 1922, concernant l’organization de l’Ecole de Pâli, il
n’est permis de suivre les cours de cette école que ceux qui
ont réçus au concours d’admission. Cependant cette Ordonnance
Royale ne prévoit cela que pour les Cambodgiens. Or le bonze
Thong Di est un laotien, et de plus il fait preuve de bonne
volonté en venant de si loin nous demander   s’inspirer. Il a
entendu dire qu’on peut faire de bonnes études de pali dans
cette école don’t s’occupe l’Administration et c’est pourquoi
il est venu demander a y entrer, dans but de pouvoir plus tard
enseigner aux éleves du Laos d’après la méthode d’enseignement
qu’il y aura appris.  Je trouve que le bonze Thong Di pourrait
etre permis   suivre le Cours Moyen de l’Ecole de Pâi parce
qu’il possède déj   assez de connaisssances en cette langue,
et si vous n’y voyez pas d’inconvenient, je demandera a ce
qu’un arrêté soit pris   ce sujet.  Mais quel que soit votre
avis, je vous prie de vouloir bien me le faire connaître a fin
de m’y conformer.
Letter provided by Penny Edwards.
        Specifically regarding funding, the second half of this
letter consists of a complaint by the King of Luang Phrabang
that the Institut bouddhique in Vientiane and Luang Phrabang
were supposed to receive a budget allocation of 1,400
piastres. However, the king complains, the Institut in Luang
Phrabang especially did not receive this funding and that he
wanted to call this fact to the attention of the colonial
authorities so that the Institut could help “le developpement
de la culture religieuse et intellectuelle du pays.” I thank
Penny Edwards and the staff at the Buddhist Institute in Phnom
Penh for supplying me with copies of these letters.
   For more information on the failures of the French and Lao
royalty in the production of Plai and/or vernacular texts in
this period see Hundius, “Lao Manuscripts and Traditional
Literature: The struggle for their survival,” 4.
   As part of this project in Cambodia, the Bibliothèque royale
du Cambodge published a periodic Khmer language report on the
activity of Buddhist textual work called the Kampuchea Suriya
(Cambodian Sun) which included sample translations and short
articles. Nothing of this kind was produced in Laos. See
Jean-Pierre Drège, L’École française d’Extrême-Orient et le
Cambodge 1898-2003, 40.
   Sila Viravong’s family, especially his daughter, has been
building a library in his honor for the past decade. This
project hopes to bring together his collected works and other
important sources for Lao history, literature, and religion in
Vientiane. Dara Kanlaya and Douangdeuane Bounyavong presently
head this project.
   The French actually patronized local Lao Buddhist practices
and learning. Finot, Karpelès, Coedès and other attended large
Buddhist and royal ceremonies in Laos frequently. In fact,
there are reports that they, like EFEO scholars today,
participated in the Lao baxi ceremony (which involved tying
sacred white strings on the wrists for protection and good
fortune) an imminently local Lao protective rite not
documented in translocal classical Buddhism.  These were not
always distant, arm-chair scholars seeking only to collect
texts divorced from their living context.
   Martin Stuart-Fox, Buddhist Kingdom, Marxist State (Bangkok:
White Lotus, 1996): 105.
   Evans, A Short History, 178.
   There was very little critical scholarship on Lao Buddhism
between 1955 and 1975. The Bulletin des Amis du Royaume Lao
issue on Buddhism (1973) and Marcel Zago’s Rites et cérémonies
en milieu bouddhiste lao (1972) work on Lao ritual practice
are good general survey’s, but they offer little in the way of
textual analysis, interviews, or in depth analysis. On
problems with sources and “comprehensive” studies of Lao
culture and history see Martin Stuart-Fox, “On the Writing of
Lao History: Continuities and Discontinuities,” Journal of
Southeast Asian Studies 24 (1993). See also Vatthana
Pholsena’s excellent “Changing Historiographies of the Lao
Past,” Journal of Southeast Asian Studies 35.2 (2004): 235-259.
   I thank Boualy Paphaphanh, Bounteum Sibounheuang, and Thong
Xeuy, as well as the directors of the Sangha College for all
of their assistance. Ajahn Seng at Wat Lao Riverside was also
helpful in explaining Sangha education before 1975.
   Geoffrey Gunn, Rebellion in Laos: Peasant and Politics in a
Colonial Backwater (Boulder, CO: Westview, 1990), and Gunn,
Political Struggles in Laos, 1930-1954: Vietnamese Communist
Power and the Lao Struggle for National Independence (Bangkok:
Duang Kamol, 1988): 76-99; and Gunn, Theravadins,
Colonialists, and Commissars in Laos (Bangkok: White Lotus,
1998): 118. See also Joel Halpern, Government, Politics and
Social Structure in Laos: A Study of Tradition and Innovation
(Yale University Press, New Haven, 1964): 58-60.
        See also note #19 in chapter seven of this book regarding a
short book entitled Phra Buddha Sāsanā kap Kān Bok Kong Pathet
(Buddhism and Governing the Nation) composed in 1916 by Prince
Wachirayan of Thailand (Somdet Phra Mahāsamanachao Krom Phra
Vajirayān Wororot) that was popular and translated into
English. The English version (not the Thai!) was the basis of
a Lao translation by Bunthip Chanthamontrī under the
sponsorship of the Asia Foundation and Lao royal patronage in
1967 in honor of Maghapuja Day (a popular Buddhist holiday).
This book was translated and printed in Lao to encourage their
resistance to communism and allegiance to the growing power of
the Marxist Pathet Lao Party. It also was designed to combat
Marxist interpretations of Buddhism as corrupt, antithetical
to progress and equality, and incommensurate with good governance.
   McDaniel, “Buddhism in Modern Thailand.”  Here I discuss the
rise of Dhammadūta, or emmisary monks sent by the Central Thai
government to reform practice in the Northeast and to preach
against Communism.
   Some of these books, many of which were published
posthumously, include: (Phra) Mahāpān Anando, Prabeni Lao
(Vientiane, Vat Mikhathaya, 2517 [1973]) and his Thāng Hā Sai
(Vientiane, 1999). Phra Mahāpān Anantho’s legacy was promoted
by a number of his students in the early 1970s and in a recent
revival in the last ten years. For example, his work is
mentioned in a book on the biographies of five great monks
(Ǭngkān Buddhasāsanā Sampan Lao, Sivit lae phon ngān khǭng
phramahāthera hā ǭng (Vientiane: Ǭngkān Buddhasāsanā Sampan
Lao, 2001), his teachings inspired monks and lay scholars like
Phra Mahā Khamphuey, Phiak Chunlamontri, Phra Philawong, and
the highly influential monk in contemporary Laos, Phra Sāli
Kanthasilo. His life is also briefly summarized in his funeral
festshrift edited by Phayā Khamnai Chantabanyā, Khamhā
Sithirātwongsā, and many others and printed for free
distribution at Vat Pāluang.
   (Phra) Mahāpān Anantho, Samākhom Buddhawong Lao lae
Buddhayuvaxon Lao (Vientiane: Vat Buddhawongsa Pāluang, 1971).
   Ibid., 16-17.
   I thank Patrice Ladwig for providing a number of important
sources for the life of Phra Mahāpan Anantho. In particular
see the report of his funeral in Lao Samay Daily News (Vol.
288) 1968.
   Lao folktales are a major part of monastic education.
Stories from the Xīeng Mīeng cycle, the Xin Sai, etc. break
down the division between secular and religious literature as
they are told alongside local adaptations of translocal
“Buddhist” narratives like the Vessantara Jātaka, Sujavanna,
etc. See McDaniel, “Creative Engagement: the Sujavaṇṇa Wua
Luang and its Contribution to Buddhist Literature,” Journal of
the Siam Society 88 (2000): 156-177. See also Peltier, Le
Roman Classique Lao (Paris: L’École française
d’Extrême-Orient, 1988), Louis Gabaude, Les Cetiya de sable au
Laos et en Thaïlande : les textes (Paris: L’École française
d’Extrême-Orient, 1979) and Georges Condominas, Le bouddhisme
au village (Vientiane: L’École française d’Extrême-Orient,
1998): 44-45. Condominas writes: “pendant des siècles le vat a
été la seule école. Les enfants y entraient comme novices, ou
‘bonzillons,’ pour apprendre, outrè le calcul,   lire et
écrire le lao, puis le paali, langue sacrée de bouddhisme
theravaadin|Mises   part les premières notions d’arithmétique,
l’enseignment dispensé au monastère est surtout littéraire et
religieux: il repose sur les texts sacrés, où les jaataka, les
récits des vies antérieures du Bouddha, tiennent une place
capitale. Le développement de l’enseignment public et läic,
basé sur les principes démocratiques d’accès   l’instruction
pour tous, qui s’est beaucoup développe’ ces dernières années,
a réduit considérablemnt ce rôle d’école primaire que jouait
la pagode.”
   Many school building built by the French are still in use,
but often they have been abandoned or converted into farm
houses, clinics, or even garages.
   Pierre-Bernard Lafont, “Buddhism in Contemporary Laos,” in
Contemporary Laos, ed. Martin Stuart-Fox (St. Lucia:
University of Queensland Press, 1982): 149, 152.
   Stuart-Fox, Buddhist Kingdom, 102-103.
   Ibid., 103.
   Ibid., 103.
   Ibid., 96.
   Lafont, “Buddhism in Contemporary Laos,” 153.
   Stuart-fox also notes that: “young monks were attracted out
of the Sangha by government offers of training and education,
special vocational training schools having been set up for
ex-novices. The actual decline in Sangha numbers is hard to
estimate. A refugee monk from Viang Chan [Vientiane] reported
that by the end pf 1976 the number of monks in the capital had
fallen by about two-thirds; another monk from the south of the
country reported that by mid-1978 numbers were down to about
one-twentieth or less. In early 1979, according to the
secretary of the Sangharaaja, there were only 1,700 monks in
the country, down from 20,000 when the PL [Pathet
Lao/Communist Party] took power.” The government’s policy
certainly did “reduce the independence of the Sangha in order
to enable the Party to monopolize social and political
influence” (107). However, throughout the 1980s and 90s
religious freedom slowly returned under pressure from foreign
watchdog groups and economic failure. By 1996 the government
began actively promoting the value of Buddhism to attract
tourist dollars. All guidebooks to Laos emphasize the
country’s Buddhist traditions “untouched” by time. Official
Lao tourist brochures and magazines, Chinese, German,
Australian, and Thai tour companies’ websites, as well as
foreign guidebooks like Fodors and the Rough Guide, always
include pictures of docile monks walking on their alms rounds
in the misty mountains. Laos is touted as a place to see what
Buddhism was like in the past if tourists are disappointed by
the economic progress and “commercialization” of Buddhism in
“gaudy” Thai Buddhist temples. It is striking that guidebooks
universally celebrate the poverty and lack of economic growth
in Laos as a bonus for tourists who can take pictures of poor,
but smiling, monks and villagers and dilapidated monasteries
and then safely return to their hotels and bars. Adjectives
like “rustic,” “traditional,” “timeless,” “peaceful,” can
easily be replaced with “impoverished,” “oppressed,”
“stagnant,” and “servile.” See Stuart-Fox, Buddhist Kingdom,
96, 105-106.
   See (Mahā) Khampheuy Vannasopha, Religious Affairs in Lao
PDR: Policies and Tasks (Vientiane: Ministry of Information
and Culture, 2003).
   See especially Chatthip Nartsupa, “The Ideology of Holy Men
in North East Thailand,” Ethnological Study 13 (1983): 111-134
and Collins, Nirvana and other Buddhist Felicities (Cambridge:
Cambridge University Press, 1998): 405-413.



______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
909-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

1725 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:38pm 
Subject: Re: Rare Pali editions at the EFEO, Vientiane       

I apologize to the group for my last e-mail. I was very tired
and busy. I wrote in rather harsh terms. Back to meditation:)
Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 17:07:03 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Rare Pali editions at the EFEO, Vientiane
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "David Wharton"
<davidwharton@lycos.com>, "Michel Lorrillard"
<lorrilla@loxinfo.co.th>
>
>I spent about three hours at the E.F.E.O. library in
Vientiane, today,
>and I have the following observations on some of the rare Pali
>editions in their stores.  Generally, I am delighted that such
>resources exist in Vientiane; the E.F.E.O. has a basic but
important
>collection of the fundamental textbooks for Pali (yes,
including A.K.
>Warder) available to the public --this is likely the only public
>institution with such books in Laos, as the National
University no
>longer has anything on Pali (I am told) and the Sangha College is
>closed to the public.
>

1726 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:17pm 
Subject: Pali   

Dear Dr. McDaniel,

Thank you for your letter to the Pali Study group.  I for one appreciate your
input on the Pali Study list very much, and I hope to have future contact with
your writings on Laos and Pali as they are very informative and written in a
humble, self-effacing style.

As for studying Pali, I have found these e-mail lists to be terribly inefficient
for anything but the most simple enquiries (for which of course they seem to be
quite helpful).  It seems too easy to stray from the study at hand, and actual
moderation is too difficult, if not impossible.  I have been moved to subscribe
to the e-sangha's Pali language forum, as the bulletin board style layout works
really well both to focus one's energies and for moderation purposes.
Unfortunately, aside from Ven. Dhammanando, Ven. Pesala, and a few other
devouts, very few people have taken more than a passing notice of the board.  As
the study of the pali language is of greatest importance for Buddhists and
Buddhist scholars (not to mention its indirect benefits to the rest of the
world), I think this is a shame.

So, not to detract from the membership on this list, as it seems most helpful
for what it IS able to accomplish, I would like to express the wish that at
least some of the people on this list take the time to join the e-sangha pali
forum as well, in order to provide help and collaboration in the study of the
pali language.  The forum is here (application for membership is painless and
without cost, but necessary to post your own messages or replies):

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50

I hope this post is not considered inappropriate.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

<bcc: Alan McClure, E-Sangha Pali Moderator, for further comment>

1727 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:41am 
Subject: Re: Rare Pali editions at the EFEO, Vientiane 

Hi all --I take it that Dr. McDaniel is trying a new "tone of voice",
as per our (good-humoured) discussion off-list.

I also am aware that various subjects veer away from Grammar
--however, rare editions of Pali texts has been an accepted subject.

So far as rare editions go, it is quite possible that a set of these
books ended up in an antiquarian shop in Paris; so it is hardly
academic to draw the attention of persons on the list to its
(putative) existence; and my impression is that all the members of the
list are interested in rare Pali editions.

Were I to refrain from posting, I would have remained in ignorance;
the differences between these editions are certainly not something I
can "look up" in a reference book.

I don't think I need to comment further on the Brahma-idol/murder
incident: I purchased the Saturday/Sunday issue of the Bangkok Post,
and it had a full-page special on the incident, as well as opinion
pieces, and none of them mentioned any basis for the claim that the
man was insane.  I still have not read any stated basis reported.  It
is very easy to label anyone as "insane", and newspapers do so at
their liberty; it is another thing to read an account that specifies
when and where a person sought council or medication for illness in
the past.

It is needless to say that "not all the newspapers contained all the
facts", and, moreover, "I do not read each and every newspaper"; I
think it was abundantly clear from my comments that I have no claim to
know/read everything --but I have found much that is quizzical in what
I have read.

Re: E.F.E.O. editions, I believe the only confusion here was my use of
the verb-phrase "write off".  I must speak some odd dialect in which
this doesn't have negative connotations; McDaniel and I discussed the
matter, and he gave me various reasons (primarily the nature of the
binding) to effectively "write off" the possibility that there are
significantly more volumes of that edition in Luang Phabang.  I did
not mean to imply that there was anything "irrational" or "hasty" in
the act of "writing off"; on the contrary, I imagine the latter to
have rational and methodical connotations --such as a person going
through a check-list.

The crux of the thing is this: I thought that McDaniel had told me
that only one volume had been produced of what we're calling the
white-cover edition --and I now found three volumes.  Formerly, as
quoted, I had seen 20 volumes of the same set, in one glass case.

I think I use the term "observation" in a self-evidently broad sense:
I *saw* some very interesting texts in Luang Phabang (and I evidently
became only more confused through my dialogue with the patient Dr.
McDaniel) and the binding that I saw matches the binding of the three
volumes at the E.F.E.O.  I believed that McDaniel had formerly told me
that there was only one volume published, and that the binding of the
Lao-Pali edition was dis-similar to these two examples I have now
observed.  So, with various degrees of error on my part, this seemed
to me an interesting finding; and it still seems interesting.  I
asked, in the past, for more explanation of which edition was which,
i.e., what kind of typography (vs. hand-written facsimile) I should be
looking for, etc., but, evidently, I did not have enough information
to work from, and I'm sorry it has been so terribly bothersome for my
observations to have been posted for replies.  The white-cover edition
certainly has every pretense of being a Lao-Pali edition; this did
confuse me, as I had thought that McDaniel's earlier suggestion was
that such a text would merely be a white cover put over a (Northern)
Thai edition --on the contrary, the adaptation was considerably more
than that, and I am still not clear as to in what way precisely the
Lao (white-cover) edition from Luang Phabang is "based on" the Chiang
Mai / Yuan edition.

Re: the library at Wat Ong Teu, I think the only difference here is
the question of how "open" is "open to the public".  The statement
that "you just have to get permission from the abbot" is itself a
glaring contradiction that a library is "open to the public" in any
unconditional sense of the term.  Some members of the public have much
more trouble getting permission from monks than others ... I will
leave the rest up to your imagination.

> They are not a
> "Lao edition," but copies of the Northern Thai (Yuan) script
> edition. This was largely a ceremonial printing it seems. The
> first three volumes may have been seen as ceremonially
> representing the entire tripitaka. There is another, red
> cover, edition.

This is hardly something I could be expected to know without being
told; further, I should say, that every indication I could find in the
"white cover edition" seemed to indicate that it was Lao in origin
--in any case, they had removed any trace of Thai Royal patronage to
provide Luang Phabang monarchial symbols throughout.

> I told him this. I also give a slightly fuller description
> below. I can write more on this, but since it does not relate
> to Pali grammar directly, I won't waste everyone's time.

Thank you very much --it has not been a waste of my time, and I thank
you for your patience.

So far as McDaniel's ALL-CAPS requests as to what evidence I have that
further volumes (beyond three) exist of the white-cover edition, I
again have only my former observation to refer to:

> There were 20 volumes visible --it is possible that more
> volumes were in one
> of the wooden cases (i.e., with no windows) in the same room.
>
> Of the 20 volumes, almost all were suttapitaka --there was
> just one vol.
> from the Abhidhamma pitaka, and I counted (and wrote down) how
> many were
> from the Vinaya (maybe 4? I don't have my notebook with me).
>
> Whether or not that particular set is complete, the visible
> volumes do
> indicate that it was the entire tipitaka that was published;
> as mentioned,
> the text on the spine was Lao-Dhamma --apparently
> photo-facsimile from
> hand-writing.
>
> The actual title was as reported (i.e., in Pali) --although I
> could only
> read the spine, not the front cover, nor any publication data
> within.

> JM wrote:
> I think I have some of what you saw. They were printed in a
> very small number and are not available anywhere I have
> looked, including France. I will look in the Library of
> Congress and send you a short description of what I have soon
> (the volumes are in my office). I have a 1957 set in White
> (based on the Yuan version and a Red set (not complete) in
> Tham from 1975 (I think). I remember being surprised at the date.
> More soon,
> justin

E.M.

1728 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 30, 2006 0:10pm 
Subject: Re: SV: abhihat.thu.m

Dear Ole,

Thanks for the useful answer. I think that you are correct. The
infinitive sense makes good sense. For further support, are there other
examples of  this type of construction in Pali (or in Sanskrit or other
Prakrits) in which an infinitive precedes a verb? I could find try to
find this out myself but lack the time for it at the moment.

Best wishes,
                         Bh. Nyanatusita

Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Nyanatusita,
>
> This is a very interesting problem. Andersen and Smith assumed that
> abhiha.t.thu.m is an absolutive. Their opinion was evidently influenced by
> the commentators who invariably, so it seems, gloss the term by means of an
> absolutive. Now the use of an absolutive immediately before a finite verb
> is, I believe, uncommon i Pali. The idea to interpret it as a .namul would
> in fact make much better sense. The only problem is the termination. A
> regular .namul, of which there are quite a few in the canon, and several in
> the Paatimokkha, sometimes unrecognised, should have a regular nominal
> ending in the accusative, like, for instance, abhihaara.m.
> I have gone through the limited number of examples of the use of the term
> and I have come to the conclusion that it is a regular infinitive < Sanskrit
> abhihartum. One passage e.g. M I 222, describing an anavasesadohii, a monk
> who "milks" the pool of parikkhaaras that lay people present him with to
> such an extent that nothing is left over, explains that he knows no measure
> to taking matta.m na jaanaati patiggaha.naaya (the text is using a dative
> with the syntactical function of an infinitive). Abhiha.t.thu.m must refer
> to the action of taking of the monk: he is presented with parikkhaaras to
> take away (abhiha.t.thu.m). Whenever the old commentary included in the
> Vinaya-vibha.nga explains the phrase abhiha.t.thum pavaar- it says: take as
> much as you want. This becomes fully understandable if we assume that the
> phrase means: present(s) a monk (acc.) with bhesajja etc. (instr.) to take
> away (abhiha.t.thum) i.e. when he starts wandering after the rains
> residence. The monk is the agent of the action denoted by the infinitive. I
> think the problem originates in identifying the agent of abhiha.t.thu.m as
> the lay people.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Ole Pind
>
>
> Dear Ole Pind,
>
> Do you think that abhiha.t.thu.m, which only occurs with forms of the verb
> pavaareti, could be a .namul absolutive ending in -u.m, rather than an
> absolutive similar to da.t.thu.m (in which the absolutive ending -tu.m is
> used as an absolutive)?  If it is a .namul, then it is used adverbially, and
> this would make more sense in expressions such as abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya
> in the Paatimokkha.
>
> Best wishes,
>                              Nyanatusita
>

1729 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:26am 
Subject: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)      

I read a reference today to the following:
   _Abhidhaanappadiipikaasuci_, 1915, Hanthawaddy Press, Rangoon

It is apparently over 660 pages, and may be a very useful work; if
anyone could find a copy, I would be very interested to know more
about it. I presume that it is an all-Pali work, but, given its date,
it may well have Burmese or even English commentary/glossing.

The reference I found actually gave the title as _Abbidhaana..._
[sic.?] --but this may well be a variant spelling of the title in
Burma [right or wrong], so if you are checking a computerized
catalogue, you may want to try "bb" in place of "bh".

E.M.

1730 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:34am 
Subject: Burmese/Lanna/Lao -Pali orthgrahic issue 

This is a rather odd bit of research I attempted.  For some reason
some scholars in Burma are insisting that Pali & Sanskrit (in Burmese
script) require the superscript version of "y", "r", etc., in
subscript position (instead of the special subscript "y", "r", etc.)
--and are trying to change the Unicode standard.

I wrote below what I could figure out about this; the person to ask
would be Harald Hundius --perhaps I'll pester him about it sometime.
Still, I'm reasonably confident that I know what little there is to
know about the issue so far as Pali is concerned; I have *no idea*
what strange orthographic practices modern Sanskrit publications may
employ in Burma (I've never seen one!).
--------
   I spent two hours at the library looking into this.

   I would tend to conclude that (1) the issue of using superscript
form in subscript position (for the writing of Sanskrit) has only
arisen in the past century or two (i.e., with the advent of modern
printing, and transcription of Sk. texts into Burmese), & (2) the
source of the orthographic issue is in the inconsistent vernacular use
of superscript forms in subscript position, as can still be seen with
Lanna, Lao-Tham (and, I believe, Shan?) in suggesting medial vowels,
or changing the significance of a medial or final consonant.  Note,
e.g., Lanna's use of both a subscript "v" and a superscript "v" in
subscript position (Burmese doesn't have this, nor could it ever be
used for Pali in Lanna script); in Lanna this was one means of
distinguishing the medial "v" from its other consonant/semivowel
sounds (modern Lao doesn't make any such orthographic distinction
--the one non-phonetic element of the modern script!).

   It *may* be that the authors of the proposal are describing the
issue as Pali/Sanskrit related for political convenience --or it may
be out of genuine ignorance --or it may be related to classical hybrid
texts.  I am certainly not aware of any standard for using superscript
glyphs in subscript position for Burmese-script Sanskrit; *however*,
this may well have evolved in the past 100 years, as typesetters
struggled to render Sk. in Burmese type --the former tradition (right
into the 20th century) in Burma did use a mainland-Indic script (as I
digress to show below).

   Nihar-ranjan Ray's _Sanskrit Buddhism in Burma_, 1936, contained
little that was of use (orthographically) aside from two negative
statements, to the effect that the Sanskrit tradition in Burma was
largely/wholly written in Nagari & Bengali script until very recently.
  pg. 32: "... whatever the language may be [viz., Sk., Pali, or a mix
of the two], the script is always the same; it is mediaevil Nagari and
proto-Bengali of the period [viz., 9th-13th c.]"
   pg. 34: (following Forschammer's findings in the 1880s) "Sanskrit
literature in Burma [is] written on paper like India [viz.,] with
Nagari and Bengali characters."

   I myself had rather under-estimated the importance of these scripts
in the recent history of Burma; it would seem that transcription of
Sanskrit into modern Burmese orthography is a modern Burmese
pre-occupation.  Thus, the important hints here will not be found in
the old inscriptions (which is where both of us have been looking).
It seems to me that in antiquity the only use for this
super-/sub-script phenomenon would be (e.g.) to express a sequence
like "taya" or "tara" in a single glyph, by putting the superscript
form in a subscript position (i.e., as distinguishable from "tya" &
"tra" using "proper subscripts").  This is certainly a common
phenomenon in Lao-Tham, and, I would assume something similar could be
found in Upper Burma for vernacular and mixed texts; but there is no
_prima facie_ connection or origin related to Sanskrit.  I think the
orthographic practice was primarily vernacular, and has (perhaps) come
to be used to render Sanskrit in the modern period.  One would expect
to find this sort of thing in a hybrid Lao-Pali text, but not in pure
Pali; I really have never looked at hybrid Burmese-Pali texts, but
there may be something similar.  I have certainly spent a lot of time
with Burmese "Pure Pali" sources, and, as you say, the issue does not
exist there --nor in pure Pali inscriptions.

   But you may well say "What about the Myazedi inscription?"  Indeed,
what about it?  Some of the earliest Sanskrit inscriptions found in
the greater Burmese area are written in something like Pyu, but this
is of very little salience to the practical question you have raised
--as the script used (e.g.) at Myazedi cannot practically be
considered commensurable with modern Burmese.  Be that as it may, the
Burmese face of said inscription (not the Pali) has a few superscripts
in subscript position: e.g. _Epigraphica Birmanica_. Vol. 1, pg. 24
note 3 & 25 note 1.  These seem to affirm my suspicion that the issue
is vernacular (not Palic/Sanskritic) in nature.  You and I are both
fairly familiar with Pyu & early Mon orthography in Pali & Sk.; I
don't see any need to digress on subscript forms in these
inscriptions, as you already know the facts.  Similarly, the tendency
in all Khmer/Khom/Pallava Sk. was to use more specialized subscripts
than are at present found --i.e., generally, modern Burmese uses more
subscripts that are identical to superscripts than the ancient
Sk./Pali epigraphical forms.  For example, consider the methods of
rendering "ppa" & "ppha" in all of the ancient scripts of the region
vs. modern Burmese; we could describe the modern Burmese form as one
of "putting superscript forms in subscript position" --and this may
have been the origin of what is now the "correct" practice in Burmese
Pali.  By contrast, a Khmer-Pali text has specialized subscripts for
all combinations; as I have already said repeatedly, mixed texts
(e.g., Lanna) do sometimes present us with a contrast between proper
subscripts (closely resembling the modern Khmer) and superscript forms
in subscript position (closely resembling the modern Burmese).  All of
this combines to lend weight to my assumption that the issue is more
modern in origin than I at first suspected.

   Staring at the Lao-Tham script edition of the Pali D.N.1, I am
reminded that some limited use of superscripts in subscript positions
has crept into these texts by way of scribal confusion/error --and the
latter errors have sometimes become locally deemed as correct (though
not in any major Burmese or Mon script Pali edition I have ever seen
...).  I am thinking, for instance, of subscript ~n ("nya"), viz.,
where the second ~n in a pair is written below the first, but, in
fact, the first is already a double form --this actually would be four
~n sounds, but it is read as two in (some) Lao-Tham scripts.  It is
inconsistent, and, in principle, can be considered erroneous; one can
sometimes find a triple ~n form in Burmese sources stemming from
similar confusion (but the latter is not a subscript issue).

   So: to make a long story short, the question of including these
special forms "makes sense" to me in terms of vernacular and
pseudo-classical languages of the region, but I have *NO IDEA* why it
has been proposed as an issue for Pali & Sanskrit transcription.  I
could easily imagine that it is an issue for Shan; but if anyone tells
you that "correct" Pali eschews the subscript form of "y" to write
instead superscript "y" in a subscript position ... I think you're
justified in asking where they get that idea from.

E.M.

1731 
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:01am 
Subject: Re: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)

There is just same book from sri lanka printed in burmese script ,same goes for
thai version .


   Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> wrote:
   I read a reference today to the following:
_Abhidhaanappadiipikaasuci_, 1915, Hanthawaddy Press, Rangoon

It is apparently over 660 pages, and may be a very useful work; if
anyone could find a copy, I would be very interested to know more
about it. I presume that it is an all-Pali work, but, given its date,
it may well have Burmese or even English commentary/glossing.

The reference I found actually gave the title as _Abbidhaana..._
[sic.?] --but this may well be a variant spelling of the title in
Burma [right or wrong], so if you are checking a computerized
catalogue, you may want to try "bb" in place of "bh".

E.M.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1732 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:53am 
Subject: SV: SV: abhihat.thu.m      

Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,

<For further support, are there other examples of  this type of construction
in Pali (or in Sanskrit or other
Prakrits) in which an infinitive precedes a verb? I could find try to find
this out myself but lack the time for it at the moment.>

This is an interesting question. I think I can say with some confidence that
in the prose of the Pali canon the infinitive generally follows the finite
verb or one of the particles, adjectives or nouns that are constructed with
an infinitive such as alam, bhabba, sakka, .thaana.m, or the like. It rarely
precedes the finite verb. There are, however, cases where it occurs
immediately before the finite verb such as gantum arahati, daatum arahanti,
gantum icchasi. In some cases one finds the infinitive initially like in
gantum pi me esaa --- disaa phaasu hoti. I have also noticed examples of the
use of issaraa (mfn. pl.; empowered to, authorized to) with an infinitive
preceding issaraa. In late Vedic prose there appears to be no definitie rule
as to the place of the infinitive: it is found both before the finite verb
and after it. I base my inference on Delbrck's Altindische Syntax. I have
generated a list of infinitive on the basis of CSCD. I have gone through a
limited number of occurrences that show the same pattern: the infinitive
follows the finitive verb or alam etc. I attach it in case you find time to
go through some of the material.

Best wishes,

Ole


   ----------

-Pjetu
akathetu
akappiyasetu
aktu
akitu
akkamitu
akkositu
akkhtu
akkhetu
agantu
aghpetu
aghetu
aggahitu
aggahetu
agghpetu
acvetu
acikkhitu
accantamupagantu
accitu
accetu
acchatu
acchditu
acchdetu
acchitu
acchinditu
ajtasattu
ajyitu
ajsattu
ajjhcaritu
ajjhpajjitu
ajjhyitu
ajjhsayadhtu
ajjhesitu
ajjhoghitu
ajjhoghetu
ajjhottharitu
ajjhoharitu
atu
aenasahekatthibhvamanubhavitu
a  hakkhattu
a  hrasakkhattu
ati-achitu
atikkantu
atikkamitu
atikkametu
atikkmetu
aticaritu
atidisitu
atidhvitu
atibhavitu
atibhotu
atiytu
atirekachakkhattu
atirekatikkhattu
ativahitu
ativijjhitu
atisitu
attatahetu
attanoladdhadhtu
attahetu
attnamajjhottharitu
atthamatu
atthamviktu
atthampaksetu
attharitu
athekavsatikkhattu
adtu
adesitu
adhigantu
adhi  hahitu
adhi  htu
adhippyamviktu
adhibhavitu
adhibhotu
adhimuccitu
adhimucchitu
adhivasitu
adhivspetu
adhivsetu
adhisahitu
adhyitu
anatikkamitu
anadhi  htu
anapanetu
anayabyasanpattihetu
angantu
ancikkhitu
andtu
anpajjitu
anrocpetu
anrocetu
anropetu
anibbpetu
anukampitu
anugacchitu
anugantu
anuggahitu
anuggahitu
anujnpetu
anujnitu
anutu
anu  htu
anuahitu
anuddhasitu
anuddhasetu
anupagantu
anuparigantu
anupariyyitu
anupdisesanibbnadhtu
anupletu
anuppadtu
anupharitu
anubandhitu
anubujjhitu
anubhavanahetu
anubhavitu
anubhotu
anumtu
anuminitu
anumoditu
anuyujitu
anuyogamapanetu
anurakkhitu
anuvattitu
anuvicaritu
anuvicinitu
anuvijjitu
anusacaritu
anusatu
anusvetu
anussitu
anussarpetu
anussaritu
anussvetu
anekakkhattu
anekadhtu
anekasatakkhattu
antaradhpetu
antaradhyitu
antarvisujjhitu
antu
anvvisitu
anvetu
apakahitu
apakkamitu
apagantu
apacyitu
apaccavekkhitu
apaccharitu
apa iggahetu
apatthetu
apadisitu
apanayitu
apanetu
apaypetu
apaloketu
apavhitu
apasakkitu
apasdetu
apassayitu
apassitu
apaharitu
appuritu
apidhetu
apihetu
appaccavekkhitu
appa iggahitu
appa iggahetu
appamajjitu
appavattihetu
appyitu
appetu
abbhatu
abbhcikkhitu
abyabhicrihetu
abypdadhtu
abhavitu
abhikiritu
abhikkampetu
abhikkamitu
abhigantu
abhijayaketu
abhijjhyitu
abhitu
abhitthavitu
abhitthavetu
abhinanditu
abhinipajjitu
abhinipphdetu
abhinibbhijjitu
abhinisditu
abhinharitu
abhipjitu
abhibhavitu
abhibhotu
abhirampetu
abhiramitu
abhiruhitu
abhirhitu
abhivaditu
abhivanditu
abhivdpetu
abhivdetu
abhivijinitu
abhivijetu
abhisakharpetu
abhisakharitu
abhisakhtu
abhisametu
abhisambujjhanahetu
abhisambujjhitu
abhisambhavitu
abhisambhotu
abhisicitu
abhiha appattarpahetu
abhihattu
abhiharitu
abhihritu
amatadhtu
amaritu
ayodhtu
arahattamadhigantu
arpadhtu
arpvacaravipkamanoviadhtu
alakattu
alakattu
alakaritu
alaktu
alamevtilajjitu
allyitu
avakhaitu
avaghitu
avajnpetu
ava  htu
avattu
avattharitu
avadhretu
avabujjhitu
avabodhayitu
avabodhetu
avabhottu
avamaitu
avalambitu
avasicitu
avaharitu
avpuritu
avikappetu
avijjdhtu
avijjyakampetu
avisadattamakkhtu
avihisdhtu
avpasamitu
asavutacakkhdihetu
asakyamativattitu
asakhatadhtu
asitu
astikkhattu
asuka-utu
asesetu
asocitu
assdetu
asssetu
ahetu
kahitu
ksadhtu
ko etu
gantu
gamitu
gametu
cametu
caritu
cikkhitu
jnitu
 hapetu
petu
thapetu
dtu
diyitu
nayitu
nitu
netu
pajjanahetu
pajjitu
pattimpajjitu
pdetu
pucchpetu
pucchitu
podhtu
masitu
ycitu
rakkhitu
raddhummulitu
rabhitu
rambhadhtu
rdhetu
ruhitu
rogatu
rocetu
ropitu
ropetu
rohitu
lapitu
lambitu
ligitu
lokpetu
loetu
impetu
vajjitu
vajjetu
va  etu
vapitu
vamitu
varitu
vasitu
vahitu
viktu
vijjitu
vijjhitu
vichitu
visitu
vunitu
sakitu
sajjitu
savahetu
sditu
sdetu
sicitu
sevitu
hattu
habypitu
harpetu
haritu
hretu
hiitu
ikkhpayitu
icchpetu
icchitu
i  hakosidanehetu
idhgantu
idhnetu
ukkaspetu
ukkahitu
ukka hitu
ukkamitu
ukkiritu
ukkujjitu
ukko etu
ukkhipitu
uggahpetu
uggahitu
uggantu
uggahpetu
uggahitu
uggahetu
ugghetu
uggilitu
ugghasetu
uggh etu
uccretu
uccletu
ucchijjitu
ujjaletu
ujjletu
ujjhtu
ujjhyitu
ujjhitu
u  hapetu
u  hahitu
u  htu
u  hpetu
u  hitu
uitu
uetu
uamitu
uha-utu
uhsadhtu
utu
uttaritu
uttnktu
uttpetu
uttretu
udharitu
udikkhitu
uddassetu
uddispetu
uddisitu
uddhattu
uddharitu
uddhtu
upakritu
upakkamitu
upagantu
upaghtu
upacaritu
upacritu
upacetu
upacchijjitu
upacchinditu
upajvitu
upa  hapetu
upa  hahitu
upa  htu
upa  hpetu
upa  hitu
upahadhtu
upatthambhetu
upadasetu
upadassayitu
upadahitu
upadisitu
upadhretu
upanayhitu
upanmetu
upanijjhyitu
upanisditu
upanhtu
upanetu
upapajjitu
upaparikkhitu
upapdetu
upabhottu
upamyamivohitu
upametu
upaypetu
upariktu
upalakkhetu
upalabbhitu
upalpetu
upavanamabhgantu
upavesitu
upasakamitu
upasampajjitu
upasampdetu
upasighyitu
upahanitu
updtu
updisesanibbnadhtu
upsitu
upekkhsahagathetumanoviadhtu
upekkhitu
upetu
uppajjitu
uppatitu
uppattihetu
uppannasta-utu
uppabbjetu
upp etu
uppdetu
uplavitu
ubba  etu
ubbhavitu
uyyojetu
ulloketu
ussakkitu
usspetu
ussretu
ussicitu
ussukkpetu
nakacchakkhattu
nakachakkhattu
nakatikkhattu
nakadvattikkhattu
ekakkhattu
ekadvattikkhatu
ekadvattikkhattu
ekadvikkhattu
ekapasatikkhattu
ekamevahetu
ekdasakkhattu
ekdasacakkhattu
ekbhavitu
eknatisakkhattu
eknattisakkhattu
etu
esitu
okiritu
okkamitu
oghitu
ogilitu
ocinpetu
ocinitu
ocetu
oatu
oetu
oamitu
otaritu
otpetu
otretu
ottharitu
onamitu
onahpetu
onahitu
obhsitu
obhsetu
oramitu
oropitu
oropetu
orohitu
olambitu
olambetu
olikhitu
olyitu
olubbhitu
olokayitu
olokpayitu
olokpetu
oloketu
ovaditu
ovaritu
osakkitu
ospetu
osyetu
osrayitu
osritu
osretu
osicitu
osdpetu
osditu
oharitu
ohtu
ohritu
ohiyitu
ohyitu
kakhitu
ka disdhayitu
kahitu
katikkhattu
kattu
katv-nubhottu
kathagantu
kathpetu
kathetu
kantitu
kanditu
kappayitu
kappetu
kamalyitu
kampitu
kampetu
kamma  hnamanuyujitu
kammavcakabhvamviktu
kammasakhranativisaydihetu
kamme-janitu
karuyitu
kasitu
ktu
kmadhtu
kyadhtu
kyabandhanadhtu
kyaviadhtu
kyitu
krayitu
krpayitu
krpetu
kretu
kretumharpetu
ki-ekakkhattu
kicimattamupadisitu
kiitu
kittetu
kintu
kiriyamanodhtu
kiriymanodhtu
kiriymanoviadhtu
kilesapamocanahetu
kilesasattu
kitu
kukkuccyitu
kujjhatu
kujjhitu
kumramropayitu
ketu
kepayitu
kesa-dhtu
kesadhtu
ko isatasahassakkhattu
ko  itu
ko  etu
kodhbhitu
kopetu
kkhattu
kriyvcittamkhytu
khajitu
khaitu
khattu
khanitu
khantu
khandhanibbnadhtu
khampetu
khamitu
khahukkhattu
khditu
khyitu
khipitu
khudpanetu
khepetu
khobhetu
gacchantamabhipjetu
gajjitu
gaamanussitu
gaitu
gaetu
gahpetu
gahitu
gahetu
gantu
gantvtirekachakkhattu
ganthayitu
ganthpetu
ganthitu
gandhadhtu
gamayitu
gamitu
gamudhtu
gametu
garahitu
gavesitu
gahadhtu
gahpetu
gahitu
gahetu
gyitu
ghayitu
ghpayitu
ghpetu
ghpettu
ghetu
gilitu
gv-dhtu
gvdhtu
gunamavasesbhidhtu
gurusanniyogamanu  htu
guhitu
gottu
gopayitu
gopitu
gopetu
ghasitu
ghasetu
gha itu
gha etu
gha  etu
ghasitu
ghtpetu
ghtetu
ghnadhtu
ghnaviadhtu
ghyitu
ghositu
ghosetu
cakkhattu
cakkhudhtu
cakkhuviadhtu
cakamitu
cajitu
cacalitu
caetu
catukkhattu
catuttisakkhattu
catuddasacakkhattu
catupacakkhattu
catusa  hikkhattu
catusattatikkhattu
caritu
calayitu
calitu
cavitu
cgdihetu
cretu
cletu
cvetu
cikicchitu
cittamatu
cinitu
cintayitu
cintitu
cintetu
ciryitu
cvardihetu
cuetu
cuddasakkhattu
cupayojitu
curdigaikadhtu
cetnyupahantu
cetpetu
cebhavitu
codanamapanetu
codetu
corayitu
corpayitu
corpetu
coritu
coretu
chakkhattu
cha  etu
chaayitu
chapetu
chaitu
chaetu
chattisakkhattu
chattisakkhattu
chandampidtu
chavaku ichattac -spagantu
chasattakkhattu
chditu
chdetu
chinditu
chupitu
chetu
chettu
chedpetu
chedetu
jaggpetu
jaggitu
janitu
janetu
jantu
jayitu
jalas ikadhtu
jalitu
javanamanoviadhtu
javitu
jahpetu
jahitu
jtitu
jnpetu
jnitu
jpetu
jyitu
jletu
jinagvadhtu
jinadantadhtu
jinadhtu
jinitu
jirpetu
jivhdhtu
jivhviadhtu
jrpetu
jretu
jvatu
jvpetu
jvitu
juhotu
jetu
jotetu
jhpetu
jhyitu
adhtu
ahetu
tu
pakahetu
payitu
petu
 hatapidantadhtu
 hapetu
 htu
 hitihetu
aspetu
asitu
ayhitu
asitu
ahitu
etu
ta-madhigantu
tataguasdhanahetu
tanisedhetu
tacchitu
tatotu
tathkaraahetu
tathktu
tathtirekatikkhattu
tathbandhitu
tathsampajjitu
tadabhinanditu
tadupadassetu
tanitu
tanudhtu
tappetu
tamnetu
tamrdhayitu
tamupadassetu
taritu
tavetu
tavesu-akkhtu
tavesu-cavitu
tavesu-chettu
tavesu-pakkantu
tavesu-sametu
tniktu
tpetu
tyitu
trayitu
trayetu
tritu
tretu
tetu
tsetu
tisakkhattu
tisatikkhattu
tikicchitu
tikkhatu
tikkhattu
tikkhttu
tikkhuttu
tijhattu
ti  hitu
titikkhitu
tidassetu
tibhavabhayapariccgahetu
tibhottu
tilajjitu
tilokaketu
tisakkhattu
tisahassimahsahassilokadhtu
tisahassilokadhtu
tihetu
tikkhattu
tretu
tu
tugaketu
tu  himuppdetu
tuhmsitu
tuditu
tulayitu
tuletu
tussitu
tejodhtu
tettisakkhattu
tedhtu
temayitu
temetu
tesamnetu
tosetu
tvadupagamitu
tvamahimahitu
thapetu
thambhitu
thambhetu
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sabhavanamabhigantu
samakkhtu
samachitu
samaamudikkhitu
samatisakkhattu
samatikkamanarpadh

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1733 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 0:05pm 
Subject: list moderation       

Dear members,

As it has stood until now (ie. for the past 5 years), any message
posted by a list-member automatically passes through unmoderated with
the topics chosen and the material contributed being left up to the
members as they find appropriate for this list. And until now this
arrangement has worked fairly well.

But unfortunately in view of Justin McDaniel's recent message on Mar.
27th in response to Eisel's remarks (and there have benn other list
*incidents* involving Eisel in the past year or so), I have decided to
begin moderating Eisel's messages. In other words, they will have to
be approved before being allowed through. This only applies to one
member and not to the remaining members whose messages will continue
to pass through unmoderated as usual.

The primary focus of the list is on Pali grammar and Pali grammatical
literature but any other related-subject is also open for discussion
or questions and even the occasional digression into an off-topic
subject is fine too.

Best wishes,
Jim Anderson, the moderator and list-owner

1734 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:48pm 
Subject: Re: list moderation   

Dear All,

It is Jim's list. It is up to him how he runs it. I did not
want to cause any trouble. I just do not like being misquoted
or being used as a unwilling foil in an argument. Eisel
certainly was not being malicious, just rash. I have learned a
lot from his comments, esp. on Pali grammatica. As the old
saying goes, "it is no skin off my back." Since, I am the
newest member of the list, perhaps I should be the one to stay
quiet from now on.

I have learned much from all of you and I will certainly learn
much watching the conversations in the future.

Best regards,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:05:39 -0500
>From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
>Subject: [palistudy] list moderation
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Dear members,
>
>As it has stood until now (ie. for the past 5 years), any message
>posted by a list-member automatically passes through
unmoderated with
>the topics chosen and the material contributed being left up
to the
>members as they find appropriate for this list. And until now
this
>arrangement has worked fairly well.
>

1735 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 8:56am 
Subject: Pali Roots

Dear Friends,

My venerable pali teacher has asked that I find information about any extent
list of pali roots that might be more or less complete.  He says there should be
at least 1000 roots, but that he has never seen any list so complete.  I have
seen lists of Sanskrit roots, even on the Internet, but never pali ones.  If
there exists any text containing all (or at least most) pali roots, electronic
or hard copy (more probable, I suppose), I would like to inquire as to whether
someone on this list might have information on how to obtain such a text.

Thanks in advance,

Yuttadhammo

1736 
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.freeserve.co.uk> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 9:54am 
Subject: Re: Pali Roots

Yuttadhammo wrote:

> I would like to inquire as to whether
> someone on this list might have information on how to obtain such a text.

I have got a photocopy of a dhatupatha list of Pali roots for a book by an
S.M. Karle which gives 1838 roots, taken from the Dhaatu-paa.tha,
Dhaatu-ma~juusaa and the Sadda-niiti.  The only problem is that I am not
sure of the title of the book I got them from.  So, one can say with
confidence that such a book does exist.  Perhaps somebody else will know the
title.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

1737 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 10:12am 
Subject: Re: Pali Roots  

Ven. Yuttadhammo:
> My venerable pali teacher has asked that I find information about any
> extent
> list of pali roots that might be more or less complete.  He says there
> should be
> at least 1000 roots, but that he has never seen any list so complete.
> I have
> seen lists of Sanskrit roots, even on the Internet, but never pali
> ones.

Bhante,

For a digital list you could perhaps use your computer
skills to extract all the roots given in the CSCD's
_Saddaniiti Dhaatumaalaa_.

As for a hard copy, I mostly use a modern Thai work, the
Dhaatuppadiipikaa by Luang Thep Darunanusit, first published
in 1925. It can be ordered from the Mahamakut Bookshop. In
its 600 pages it lists 1864 roots, comprising all those
found in the Dhaatumaalaa, along with many others omitted by
Aggavamsa. The entry for each root gives its augment, the
main finite verbs derived from it, along with kitakas etc.,
and then Thai translations.

In this connection there are two other shorter dictionaries
your teacher might also look out for, both by Major General
Prayut Long Somboon:

_Phajanaanukrom kiriyaakitaka_ (a dictionary of verbal
derivatives in -anta, -tavantu, -taavii, -aniiya, -tabba,
-.nya, -labbhaa, -sakkaa, -teyya, -aani, -maana, -tva, and
-tvaana -- with a separate chapter for each suffix).

_Phajanaanukrom kiriyaa aakhyaata_ (a dictionary of finite
verbs)

They will be worth his while getting because they list many
verbs that are omitted in the standard Pali-Thai
dictionaries, giving the root and construction of each one.
Both books are (or used to be) distributed by the Ruang Panya
Bookshop at Tha Phra Chan.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1738 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 10:39am 
Subject: SV: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)  

This work is very interesting in that it contains comprehensive section on
Pali grammatical literature. It is written in Sinhalese, but includes
quotations in Pali from the relevant literature, sometimes from works that
have not yet been edited or are no longer extant. The author is a well-known
Sinhalese scholar, Waskaduve Subhuti, the editor of the editio princeps of
the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa. The suucii was published in Colombo 1893.

Regards,

Ole Pind





I read a reference today to the following:
   _Abhidhaanappadiipikaasuci_, 1915, Hanthawaddy Press, Rangoon

It is apparently over 660 pages, and may be a very useful work; if anyone
could find a copy, I would be very interested to know more about it. I
presume that it is an all-Pali work, but, given its date, it may well have
Burmese or even English commentary/glossing.

The reference I found actually gave the title as _Abbidhaana..._ [sic.?]
--but this may well be a variant spelling of the title in Burma [right or
wrong], so if you are checking a computerized catalogue, you may want to try
"bb" in place of "bh".

E.M.

1739 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 10:45am 
Subject: SV: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)  

I HASTEN TO CORRECT MYSELF. The work I was thinking of was
Waskaduve's
Naamamaalaa which was published in 1976.
The suucii should be interesting, though.

Ole Pind

This work is very interesting in that it contains comprehensive section on
Pali grammatical literature. It is written in Sinhalese, but includes
quotations in Pali from the relevant literature, sometimes from works that
have not yet been edited or are no longer extant. The author is a well-known
Sinhalese scholar, Waskaduve Subhuti, the editor of the editio princeps of
the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa. The suucii was published in Colombo 1893.

Regards,

Ole Pind





I read a reference today to the following:
   _Abhidhaanappadiipikaasuci_, 1915, Hanthawaddy Press, Rangoon

It is apparently over 660 pages, and may be a very useful work; if anyone
could find a copy, I would be very interested to know more about it. I
presume that it is an all-Pali work, but, given its date, it may well have
Burmese or even English commentary/glossing.

The reference I found actually gave the title as _Abbidhaana..._ [sic.?]
--but this may well be a variant spelling of the title in Burma [right or
wrong], so if you are checking a computerized catalogue, you may want to try
"bb" in place of "bh".

E.M.

1740 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 2:41pm 
Subject: Re: Pali Roots   

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

The Saddaniiti has a comprehensive listing of 1687 Pali roots in its
Dhaatumaala volume (included on the CSCD disk). Some years ago I typed
up a handy list of all 1687 roots with their meanings that I extracted
from H. Smith's edition of the Saddaniiti. The list is in a plain text
file (44K) in the Velthuis scheme that I'd be happy to email you if
you're interested in a copy. Here's a small portion to give you an
idea of how it looks:

    3 ku sadde,
    4 ke ca.
    5 phakka niicagatiya.m. (cs pakka)
    6 taka hasane.
    7 taki kicchajiivane.
    8 suka gatiya.m.
    9 bukka bhassane.
   10 dhaka pa.tighaate gatiya~nca.

The Dhaatumaala itself comments on each of these entries. There is a
Thai script volume of this text available from the Bhumibalo
Foundation in Bkk. However, the roots in it are not numbered as in
Smith's edition.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< My venerable pali teacher has asked that I find information about
any extent list of pali roots that might be more or less complete.  He
says there should be at least 1000 roots, but that he has never seen
any list so complete.  I have seen lists of Sanskrit roots, even on
the Internet, but never pali ones.  If there exists any text
containing all (or at least most) pali roots, electronic or hard copy
(more probable, I suppose), I would like to inquire as to whether
someone on this list might have information on how to obtain such a
text. >>

1741 
From: Khemaramsi <tzungkuen@yahoo.com.tw> 
Date: Sat Apr 1, 2006 8:04pm 
Subject: Re: Pali Roots  tzungkuen 

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo

Following link might be useful

http://www.cmbt.org/libroselectronicos/psroots.htm

with metta

Tzung Kuen

Sotthi te hotu sabbadaa @֥û|HzMay there always be happiness for
you

1742 
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2006 5:10am 
Subject: Re: Re: Pali Roots    

Thanks all for the information.  Especially Ajaan Dhammanando - I will be sure
to have all three of those books ordered from Bangkok as soon as possible.
Actually, what my teacher said was that such a work didn't exist.  I'm sure
he'll be pleasantly surprised.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1743 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2006 3:12am 
Subject: Re: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)  

I remain generally baffled by the history & authorship of these
"-suci" texts.  I twice happened upon such texts in Sri Lanka (I
believe I mentioned them in my postings of the time) and they had
extremely scant information on their origins and authorship --but they
seemed to be largely (if not wholly?) modern concoctions --but I do
not understand in what way they are concocted from classical
components.

One text seemed to gather together word-glosses from the commentaries
in a more lexical schema; this is unsurprising for a modern Sinhalese
author, but I would be interested to know what earlier precedents
there are for this (if any) or in what way the Burmese tradition
differs from it.

I think that several of Jim's proposed projects on this list would
ammount to the creation of an electronic "suci" --and the genre seems
well-suited to the digital era.  However, I still really do not feel
that I understand what the genre is, and there is no information on
these texts in Hinuber's _Handbook_, etc. --so I surmise that they are
considered derivative texts, not original compositions from the
standpoint of philology?

E.M.

1744 
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Apr 2, 2006 8:36pm 
Subject: Re: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)

The author is modern people like us with no special lost tika to based on..

Eisel Mazard <Parajanaka@gmail.com> wrote:  I remain generally baffled by the
history & authorship of these
"-suci" texts.  I twice happened upon such texts in Sri Lanka (I
believe I mentioned them in my postings of the time) and they had
extremely scant information on their origins and authorship --but they
seemed to be largely (if not wholly?) modern concoctions --but I do
not understand in what way they are concocted from classical
components.

One text seemed to gather together word-glosses from the commentaries
in a more lexical schema; this is unsurprising for a modern Sinhalese
author, but I would be interested to know what earlier precedents
there are for this (if any) or in what way the Burmese tradition
differs from it.

I think that several of Jim's proposed projects on this list would
ammount to the creation of an electronic "suci" --and the genre seems
well-suited to the digital era.  However, I still really do not feel
that I understand what the genre is, and there is no information on
these texts in Hinuber's _Handbook_, etc. --so I surmise that they are
considered derivative texts, not original compositions from the
standpoint of philology?

E.M.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1745 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 1:41pm 
Subject: Address of Sunthorn Na-Rangsi

Would anyone perhaps know the (email) address of Dr Sunthorn Na-Rangsi
who is or used to be connected to Chullalonkorn University in Bankok? We
need to ask him permission to use one of his publications.

Thanks,
                    Bh. Nyanatusita

1746 
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 8:10pm 
Subject: Re: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)  

On 2 Apr 2006, at 3:12 pm, Eisel Mazard wrote:

> I remain generally baffled by the history & authorship of these
> "-suci" texts.  I twice happened upon such texts in Sri Lanka (I
> believe I mentioned them in my postings of the time) and they had
> extremely scant information on their origins and authorship --but they
> seemed to be largely (if not wholly?) modern concoctions --but I do
> not understand in what way they are concocted from classical
> components.
>
> One text seemed to gather together word-glosses from the commentaries
> in a more lexical schema; this is unsurprising for a modern Sinhalese
> author, but I would be interested to know what earlier precedents
> there are for this (if any) or in what way the Burmese tradition
> differs from it.

In the case of the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa-suuci I don't know
of any pre-19th century precedents. Having said that, there
seems to be nothing especially innovative in Subhuuti's work,
other than his presentation of the glosses in alphabetical
order, instead of following the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa's
order of gaathaas. Compared with the 14th century .tiikaa
Subhuuti's focus seems to be more on grammar (esp.
word-formation) than semantics. His grammatical glosses
don't appear to be original: whenever I search for them on
the CSCD I invariably found that he is quoting from the
Atthakathaas or the Saddaniiti.

> I think that several of Jim's proposed projects on this list would
> ammount to the creation of an electronic "suci" --and the genre seems
> well-suited to the digital era. However, I still really do not feel
> that I understand what the genre is,

Perhaps its defining feature is simply authorship by monks
who had been taught Latin by Christian missionaries, using
mid-Victorian Latin grammars and lexicons, and who then
decided that the format of these works would work well for
Pali too.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1747 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 1:48am 
Subject: Re: Address of Sunthorn Na-Rangsi    

Dr. Sunthorn's office is on the 13th floor of the
Boramrajkumari building on Chula's campus. If you send me/fax
me the letter I can have it hand delivered for you. Dr.
Sunthorn stays off the internet.
Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:41:13 +0600
>From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Address of Sunthorn Na-Rangsi
>To: Pali Study Group <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Would anyone perhaps know the (email) address of Dr Sunthorn
Na-Rangsi
>who is or used to be connected to Chullalonkorn University in
Bankok? We
>need to ask him permission to use one of his publications.
>
>Thanks,
>                   Bh. Nyanatusita
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
909-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

1748 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Apr 4, 2006 3:16am 
Subject: Re: Re: 1915 Burmese "-suci" (Abhidhanappadipikasuci)   
 
Thank you for a very informative and useful reply.

> Perhaps its defining feature is simply authorship by monks
> who had been taught Latin by Christian missionaries, using
> mid-Victorian Latin grammars and lexicons, and who then
> decided that the format of these works would work well for
> Pali too.

But the business of gathering grammatical & lexical excerpts from the
commentaries is at once a "modern" and highly "tradition" form of
authorship.

E.M.

1749 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 0:38am 
Subject: semantics: Pahaana vs. pahaa.na      

A problem that has only arisen because of my work with the Abhidhanappadipika:

Is the meaning of pahaa.na (retroflex .n) identical to pahaana (dental
n) or does it instead relate to the active/transitive meaning of the
root, viz., to beat, strike or defeat?

I have checked my available sources, but the issue is just slippery
enough that it's difficult to infer anything definite from them (i.e.,
I could easily fool myself into thinking that the dental-n meaning is
correct for the retroflex in any given instance).

p.s. --I'm sorry to report that there are significant differences
between the two Sinhalese editions of the Abhidhanappadipika that I
now use --most obviously, the total number of verses is inconsistent.
I did not expect this to be the case, given that the text has been
through so many dozens of editions on the island, and is heavily used
--if not heavily studied.

I don't have a Burmese edition of the text --Jim, when we met in
Toronto, didn't we vaguely plan for you to send me a Xerox copy of
that here in Lao?

E.M.

1750 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 8, 2006 11:10am 
Subject: Re: semantics: Pahaana vs. pahaa.na       

Dear Eisel,

> Is the meaning of pahaa.na (retroflex .n) identical to pahaana (dental
> n) or does it instead relate to the active/transitive meaning of the
> root, viz., to beat, strike or defeat?

I take it that they both have the same meaning. The form 'pahaa.na' suggests
a Sanskritic influence (cp. Skt. prahaa.na). I believe it's the 'r' in 'pra'
that causes 'n' to change to '.n'.

> I don't have a Burmese edition of the text --Jim, when we met in
> Toronto, didn't we vaguely plan for you to send me a Xerox copy of
> that here in Lao?

A digital Burmese edition of Abh (plus its .tiikaa) is available on the CSCD
disk and, I would think, the VRI website too. If you like, I can email you a
copy of both in the Velthuis scheme. I notice that 'pahaane' is the
preferred spelling at Abh 778.

When we met in Toronto early last December, the agreement was that I would
try first to contact a bookseller in Myanmar to see if the 2 Burmese books I
showed you (Kc and Abh) could be ordered and mailed directly to you from
that country. Sending photocopies from here is a last resort as it is
time-comsuming and costly to make and send you copies. I thought I would
scan the title pages before I contact the bookseller so they could see which
books I wanted. I can't do anything about it just yet as I'm back in Orillia
without the books and the scanner. I should be returning to the cottage
shortly after Easter Sunday.

Best wishes,
Jim

1751 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:25pm 
Subject: Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado

Would anyone to give some information about a Pali work called
Paramatthajotika? The author is supposed to be a monk called
Saddhammajotika. It is frequently quoted in the chapter on cosmology in
Dr. Sunthorn Na-Rangsi's /The Buddhist Concepts of Kamma and Rebirth.
/Although some quotations seem to be identical with the Paramatthadipani
by Ledi Sayadaw, a commentary on the Abhidhammasangaha (Abhidh-s), there
are differences and it does seem to be a different work that is possibly
of modern Thai origin. There is a printed Thai script edition.
Is the author Thai? How old is it? Is it a commentary on the Abhidh-s?
The info would be of use for the Pali Literature list I am working on.
There are many commentaries on the Abhidh-s and it might be identical
with one already on the list.
By the way, does anyone know the upasampadaa Pali name of the Le.dii
Sayaa.do (as his name is spelled on the CSCD)?
Thanks.
                     Bh. Nyanatusita

1752 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:29pm 
Subject: Re: Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado      

I used to work at the Abhidhamma Jotika College which
published that book (unless you have another edition). The
author, Saddhammajotika was originally from Burma, as far as I
know, and moved to Bangkok around 1952. He first resided at
Wat Rakhang Ghositarama and helped establish the "jotika"
method of teaching the Abhidhamma in Bangkok. This "method"
was systematic, but eventually has been heavily influenced by
local Thai methods (actually some Lao methods too since one of
the head professors is a monk from Ubon. There have been lots
of books in this Jotika series published at the college by
other Thai authors.

This is all from memory though, I may be mistaken on some of
the details. Saddhammajotika is also a relatively common name
in modern Thai monasticism.

I can check in my office on Friday. Please send some more
deatils on the publication so I can compare it with the one in
my office.

Ledi Sayadaw's Pali ordination name was: Nyanadhaja.

Best,
justin


---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 00:25:15 +0600
>From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado
>To: Pali Study Group <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Would anyone to give some information about a Pali work called
>Paramatthajotika? The author is supposed to be a monk called
>Saddhammajotika. It is frequently quoted in the chapter on
cosmology in
>Dr. Sunthorn Na-Rangsi's /The Buddhist Concepts of Kamma and
Rebirth.
>/Although some quotations seem to be identical with the
Paramatthadipani
>by Ledi Sayadaw, a commentary on the Abhidhammasangaha
(Abhidh-s), there
>are differences and it does seem to be a different work that
is possibly
>of modern Thai origin. There is a printed Thai script edition.
>Is the author Thai? How old is it? Is it a commentary on the
Abhidh-s?
>The info would be of use for the Pali Literature list I am
working on.
>There are many commentaries on the Abhidh-s and it might be
identical
>with one already on the list.
>By the way, does anyone know the upasampadaa Pali name of the
Le.dii
>Sayaa.do (as his name is spelled on the CSCD)?
>Thanks.
>                    Bh. Nyanatusita
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
909-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

1753 
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:42am 
Subject: Mainland S.E.A. Pali "By-" vs. "Vy-" & "b" vs. "p"      

I've been systematically "sifting" through all of the salient
linguistic articles (in English) at the E.F.E.O. library, and have so
far found a few articles with a bearing on the "b" vs. "v" question
that we entertained earlier on the list.

As I earlier suspected (but could find no evidence to support, and so
dropped) there is an orthographic problem at the bottom of this --and
it may well be predicated upon an earlier (South-Indian) phonological
problem.

I'll later write this up as part of an article in progress about the
mutability of Pali in mainland S.E.A., but, to comment informally:

   "In ancient Khmer, the graph _b_ was rarely used (Jacob, 1960)
because, in general, the graph _v_ was used to transcribe the phoneme
/b/ as well as /v/. (Ferlus, 1993) ... When the Pallava script was
adapted to ancient Khmer the graph _v_ was taken to transcribe the two
phonemes /v/ and /b/ which led to ambiguity, as the graph /b/ was
rarely used."
   [Michel Ferlus, 1997 "The Origin of the Graph <b> in the Thai
Script", in _South East Asian Linguistic Studies in Honour of Vichin
Panupong_, Arthus S. Abramson, ed., Chulalongkorn University Press]

   When looking at early Khmer/Khom attempts to write Sanskrit, and the
transition of these words into Fa-Kham script (i.e., arguably as
"loan-words" in Thai languages) it is obvious that there was
considerable confusion about "b" vs. "v", with the Khmer "solution"
emerging from the 11th-13th centuries in the importing of a "new" _b_
glyph of (possibly) Monic inspiration (i.e., marking the end of the
old square/blob "b" form that was almost unchanged when adapted to
Khmer-Pallava from Ashokan (and/or similar South-Indian) sources).
   This "solution" for Khmer script probably led to further confusion
in Fa-Kham script(s), which seemed to independently develop their own
new "b" form by horizontally doubling the old "p" --and this new form
is the basis for modern Thai's four (tonally differentiated) "p" & "f"
glyphs.

   Ferlus [op. cit. supra] generally proposes that the ultimate origin
of all this confusion was the South-Indian pronunciation of "b" and
"v" as almost mutually-indistinguishable; one could augment this by
drawing attention to the fact that Thai and related languages had to
(at the same time) modify Khmer/Pallava script to allow for vernacular
differences between "p" sounds that did not exist in the classical
langauge, while at the same time having trouble over the aspirated
labials. Ferlus also shows (but does not emphasise) that for a period
of a few centuries the "p" and "v" glyphs in Fa-Kham looked mutually
very similar; at the same time, we may say that the vernacular use of
"p" & "v/w/semivowel" sounds was developing its own orthographic
expressions that were more and more strange from the classical
Sk./Pali.

   To make a long story short, I'm finding that there was much more
confusion (from a much earlier date) in the "importing" of Sk. & Pali
"b"-vs.-"v"-vs.-"p" distinctions than I had at first suspected.  This
can be explained/substantiated orthographically, although the root of
the problem is doubtless phonetic. I did not realize the (ancient)
orthographic difficulty involved in my earlier inquiries into this
because I was not considering developmental questions of Fa-Kham
script, and also generally did not consider the Sk.-Khmer epigraphic
evidence (as the latter is not my special interest, and I don't have
materials about it in my own bookshelf, etc.).

   I would still say that I can find no similar difficulty in the Mon
family of scripts, except that these have some separate sources of
confusion because of the use of "v" as a semivowel, etc.; but it would
be difficult to measure the extent to which "b"-"v"
substitutions/variations existed in each of the sources of
transmission of Pali texts prior to their arrival in mainland S.E.A.

   To what extent can spellings such as "Byakarana" and "Byapara" (as
opposed to Vyakarana & Vyapara) be attributed to Cambodian
transmission or (an issue raised before) to what extent can they be
explained by divisions that existed within Pali, such as the tendency
to foist "Sanskritized" back-formations upon certain Prakritic
spellings, etc.?

E.M.

1754 
From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:14pm 
Subject: Re: Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado

Venerable Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,
The Co. to the Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings) is called Paramatthajotika,
Ilustrator of Ultimate Meaning. By Buddhaghosa. This is translated in
English, PTS edition. Also the Co to the Sutta Nipaata is called
Paramatthajotika.
With respect,
Nina.

op 11-04-2006 20:25 schreef Nyanatusita op nyanatusita@gmail.com:

> Would anyone to give some information about a Pali work called
> Paramatthajotika?


1755 
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:26pm 
Subject: Re: Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado      

I thought Ven. Nyanatusita was referring specifically to the
"Paramatthajotika: Mahaa-Abhidhammattha Sangaha-tiikaa" which
was an edition (based on the Khuddakapaatha commentary, of
course) produced in Bangkok. This is now a standard textbook
used in advanced Abhidhamma study in Thailand. Its author,
Phra Saddhammajotika Dhammaacariya, is a former professor at
the school, but he is originally from Burma.
This textbook edition has had several editions, the latest
being in 2546 [2003] and published by the Muunidhi
Saddhammajotika in Bangkok.
Sorry for the confusion,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:14:07 +0200
>From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Venerable Bhikkhu Nyanatusita,
>The Co. to the Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings) is called
Paramatthajotika,
>Ilustrator of Ultimate Meaning. By Buddhaghosa. This is
translated in
>English, PTS edition. Also the Co to the Sutta Nipaata is called
>Paramatthajotika.
>With respect,
>Nina.
>
>op 11-04-2006 20:25 schreef Nyanatusita op nyanatusita@gmail.com:
>
>> Would anyone to give some information about a Pali work called
>> Paramatthajotika?
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
909-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

1756 
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:23pm 
Subject: Re: Paramatthajotika and Ledi Sayado

Dear Nina and Justin,

Thanks for the useful info.

I was referring to this .tiikaa to the Abhidhammatthasangaha and am well
aware of the Paramatthajotika commentaries by Buddhaghosa.

There are likely to be more modern Pali works like this that are popular
in Thailand but unknown outside of it.

Best wishes,
                           Bh. Nyanatusita


justinm@ucr.edu wrote:
> I thought Ven. Nyanatusita was referring specifically to the
> "Paramatthajotika: Mahaa-Abhidhammattha Sangaha-tiikaa" which
> was an edition (based on the Khuddakapaatha commentary, of
> course) produced in Bangkok. This is now a standard textbook
> used in advanced Abhidhamma study in Thailand. Its author,
> Phra Saddhammajotika Dhammaacariya, is a former professor at
> the school, but he is originally from Burma.
> This textbook edition has had several editions, the latest
> being in 2546 [2003] and published by the Muunidhi
> Saddhammajotika in Bangkok.
> Sorry for the confusion,
> justin

1757 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:23pm 
Subject: Kisithadargyipar      

Dear all,

I'm in the process of ordering books from a bookseller in Myanmar. I was
provided with a list of Pali grammar books and on that list is the title
_Kisithadargyipar_. It sure is not Pali but maybe its a Burmese title with a
Pali grammatical text between the covers. Does anyone know if this work
contains a Pali text, and if so what is the Pali title?

By the way, I've just uploaded a zipped text file of all the 634 messages
posted to palistudy for 2005. You can download it from:
http://webhome.look.ca/~jima/psgy05.zip (418KB)

Best wishes,
Jim

1758 
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:22pm 
Subject: Re: Kisithadargyipar       

A member has told me offlist that the title Kisi-thadar-gyipar is simply the
Burmese pronunciation of the Burmese title of the Kaccaayanabyaakara.na.

Jim

> I'm in the process of ordering books from a bookseller in Myanmar. I was
> provided with a list of Pali grammar books and on that list is the title
> _Kisithadargyipar_. It sure is not Pali but maybe its a Burmese title with
> a
> Pali grammatical text between the covers. Does anyone know if this work
> contains a Pali text, and if so what is the Pali title?

1759 
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:20pm 
Subject: odd form    

Dear Lance and group,

I managed to locate the letter from H. Smith concerning the odd forms
jiridanti/jiiranti/jhiiranti. It does not add anything to what Smith
published in his edition of Sadd. The explanation consists of a reference to
 326 of Pischel's Grammatik der Prakrit Sprache mentioning forms that
initially contain the cluster /k.s/, which in some cases devellop into /jh/
in MI. Smith apparently thought that the reading jhiiranti (found in a
Sinhalese edition of Sp instead of jiiranti) indicated that this verb is
derived from the root k.si/k.sii: to destroy, etc. This explanation is
linguistically dubious to say the very least. How does one explain /r/ on
this interpretation? And what about the semantics of the verb ? Apart from
this, I have nothing to add to what Lance and I have posted earlier on the
subject.

Regards,

Ole Pind
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1760
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:40 pm 
Subject: CPED  

Dear Friends,

I wonder if anyone can tell me what the copyright status is on the the
Concise Pali-English Dictionary of A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera?

Thanks,

Yuttadhammo

1761
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:07 am 
Subject: new PD pali dictionary site  

Dear Friends,

[Taking advantage of a brief lull in the conversation ;-) ]

I would like to draw all of your attentions to a new web site that looks
quite promising.  It is still not complete, but in the future it might
very well be the best Pali resource on the web... please check it out,
it is like a wiki:

http://pali.dk/dictionary/index.php

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1762
From: nina van gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:59 am 
Subject: Re: new PD pali dictionary site nilovg 

Venerable Bhante,
I checked the Dutch, very interesting.
I send it on to dsg for a Dutch friend,
with respect,
Nina.
op 28-04-2006 13:07 schreef Yuttadhammo op yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org:

>
> I would like to draw all of your attentions to a new web site that looks
> quite promising.  It is still not complete, but in the future it might
> very well be the best Pali resource on the web... please check it out,
> it is like a wiki:
>
> http://pali.dk/dictionary/index.php

1763
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:26 am 
Subject: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?  

Dear members,

The Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi is a text (2 vols.) published in Myanmar. Without
having seen it, I'm assuming it's a commentary on Buddhappiya's Ruupasiddhi.
However, it's neither listed in the bibliography to the CPD nor in Ven.
Nyanatusita's Concise Reference Table of Pali Literature. Does anyone have
any information on this text such as its author or date of composition?

Best wishes,
Jim

1764
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:14 pm 
Subject: Re: CPED  

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

> I wonder if anyone can tell me what the copyright status is on the the
> Concise Pali-English Dictionary of A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera?

I'm not sure what the current copyright status is but it does raise some
interesting questions in knowing the criteria for what does and does not
fall within the public domain. My hard copy of the dictionary is a 1968
reprint of the 1958 revised Second Edition. The First Edition seems to have
been originally published in 1949. I don't know if a Third Edition was ever
published.

Regarding copyright issues, a few weeks ago I came across a rather
interesting report called _The Information Commons: A Public Policy Report_
(dated June 2004) which can be read/viewed at:

http://www.fepproject.org/policyreports/infocommons.preview.html

I think it has some relevance to the problems of digitally reproducing and
making freely available Pali texts, translations, and other Pali resource
materials for the general public. The report also refers to Project
Gutenberg as an example of the information commons. This makes me wonder to
what extent the corpus of Pali literature can be safely placed within the
"information commons" without infringing on copyrights. One question I have:
Does Vol. 1 (completed in 1948) of the CPD fall within the public domain now
that nearly 60 years have passed?

Best wishes,
Jim

1765
From: ashinpan@gmail.com 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:48 pm 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?

Dear Jim

You wrote:

The Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi is a text (2 vols.) published in Myanmar. Without
> having seen it, I'm assuming it's a commentary on Buddhappiya's
> Ruupasiddhi.
> However, it's neither listed in the bibliography to the CPD nor in Ven.
> Nyanatusita's Concise Reference Table of Pali Literature. Does anyone have
>
> any information on this text such as its author or date of composition?


Yes, it is a commentary on Ruupasiddhi, but in Burmese. Perhaps that is why
it is not mentioned in CPD bibliography.

Its author is Sayadaw U Ukka.msaabhiva.msa, the abbot of Amarapura temple,
part of Myinwan Monastery Complex located in Mandalay. I can't say the exact
date of composition since I don't have the books at hand, but it was
published after the Second World War.

with metta

Ven. Pandita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1766
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:24 pm 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?  

Dear Ven. Pandita,

It's good to hear from you again! Thanks for the useful information. I've
been corresponding with a Burmese bookseller about ordering Pali grammatical
texts directly from Myanmar. He's been giving me various lists of such books
that included the Ruupasiddhi-ga.n.thi which now turns out not to be a Pali
text after all. Your information helped me to exclude that work as I don't
speak or read Burmese (I can only read the Pali in Burmese script). Do you
have any suggestions or advice on how best to go about getting such books
from Myanmar?

> Yes, it is a commentary on Ruupasiddhi, but in Burmese. Perhaps that is
> why it is not mentioned in CPD bibliography.

The CPD bibliography does include some commentarial works in Burmese or
Sinhalese. Perhaps the reason it didn't mention the Ruupasiddhi-ga.n.thi was
because it was unknown at the time the bibliography was published in 1948 or
the information came to late to be included. I believe there is at least one
supplement to the bibliography inserted in Vol. II that I haven't checked.

Best wishes,
Jim

1767
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:36 pm 
Subject: Re: CPED

Dear Yuttadhammo,

As far as I know permission has been granted for the digital editions by
the monastic heirs of Buddhadatta thera. Ven. Mettavihari is quite
careful with this. There are two digital searchengine versions with it.
Both are available on the Metta Lanka website
(*http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/index.html) <http://www.metta.lk/>*.
The one called Pali Lookup is quite useful but it one can not click on
the enter key on the keyboard to search, but one has to click with the
mouse on the search button on the screen. I wrote to the designer, but
he does not seem to be interested to fix this bug. I would also like to
be able to change the font so that I can use my keyboard shortcut
programs. The other one also includes some of the English Pali
dictionary by Buddhadatta.


A  HTML of P-E version is at
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm and E-P at
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/index.htm

You could contact Ven. Mettavihari ( <bhikkhu.mettavihari@gmail.com>)
for more info.

Best wishes,
                          Nyanatusita


Yuttadhammo wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I wonder if anyone can tell me what the copyright status is on the the
> Concise Pali-English Dictionary of A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Yuttadhammo
>

1768
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:13 pm 
Subject: Re: CPED  

Nyanatusita wrote:
> Dear Yuttadhammo,
>
> As far as I know permission has been granted for the digital editions by
> the monastic heirs of Buddhadatta thera. Ven. Mettavihari is quite
> careful with this.
Bhante,

Thank you for your information.  Pali Lookup says this:

"The main dictionary used by the system is: Pali-English Dictionary
Version 1.0 created by a group of foreign monks in Sri Lanka.  It is an
electronic *public-domain* edition based primarily on AP Buddhadatta
Mahathera's Concise Pali English and English Pali Dictionary, expanded
with a series of corrections and additions.  Further information is
available in the User Manual."

So can you help me to understand what this means?  According to it, the
CPED would seem to be PD already...

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1769
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:20 pm 
Subject: Re: CPED  

Dear Jim,

Thanks for the link.  Interesting article.

The whole issue of copyright has led me to one observation - that if one
really wanted to, one could do away with those institutions which insist
upon copyrighting the dhamma by creating one's own PD editions.  Rather
than doing so, we rely on copyrighted material (often high-priced), and
find our selves in the position of either breaking a copyright law or
allowing our hands to be tied in regards to dissemination of the dhamma.

That's just a thought.  I'm currently wrestling with the whole idea, as
I have an electronic edition of the PTS PED that would be really useful
for others, but for the existence of a society founded by the dead
authors of the dictionary.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1770
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:00 am 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ? ongtkee@yahoo.ca 

I have these two volumes.The author is ashin Ukkamsabhivamsa.Although  the
book
is big but it is just normal burmese tranlsation .The notes  are not useful at
all.

Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:  Dear members,

The Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi is a text (2 vols.) published in Myanmar. Without
having seen it, I'm assuming it's a commentary on Buddhappiya's Ruupasiddhi.
However, it's neither listed in the bibliography to the CPD nor in Ven.
Nyanatusita's Concise Reference Table of Pali Literature. Does anyone have
any information on this text such as its author or date of composition?

Best wishes,
Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1771
From: Ashin Pandita <ashinpan@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:39 am 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?

Dear Jim

You wrote:
> Dear Ven. Pandita,
>
> It's good to hear from you again! Thanks for the useful information. I've
> been corresponding with a Burmese bookseller about ordering Pali grammatical
> texts directly from Myanmar. He's been giving me various lists of such books
> that included the Ruupasiddhi-ga.n.thi which now turns out not to be a Pali
> text after all. Your information helped me to exclude that work as I don't
> speak or read Burmese (I can only read the Pali in Burmese script). Do you
> have any suggestions or advice on how best to go about getting such books
> from Myanmar?
>
My master is residing at Canada. His name is U Nandasiri. You can check
how to contact him here. <http://www.mahadhammika.com/14-contacts-b.html>
I think he would come to Canada from Taiwan at the end of this month.
(He has temples both in Taiwan and Canada). At least, he can help you
find out whether a book is Pali text or not.  However, he has spent his
time more at Taiwan than at Canada, so his English won't be so good. It
would be best if you can contact some of Burmese devotees residing there.
> The CPD bibliography does include some commentarial works in Burmese or
> Sinhalese. Perhaps the reason it didn't mention the Ruupasiddhi-ga.n.thi was
> because it was unknown at the time the bibliography was published in 1948 or
> the information came to late to be included. I believe there is at least one
> supplement to the bibliography inserted in Vol. II that I haven't checked.
>
I haven't used CPD much in my work, so I don't know. But I think you may
be right.

with metta

Ven. Pandita

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1772
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:40 am 
Subject: SV: CPED  

<I'm currently wrestling with the whole idea, as I have an electronic
edition of the PTS PED that would be really useful for others, but for the
existence of a society founded by the dead authors of the dictionary.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo>

We need good Pali grammars i.e. grammars in the traditional sense including
a large section on syntax. Such grammars do not exist. We need good Pali
dictionaries. Unfortunately good grammarians and lexicographers in this
field are as rare as the Tathagatas. And the few in existence would, not
surprisingly, like to get payed for their laborious and time consuming work.
To the best of my knowledge the new PED is still incomplete. The old one is
useful but dated; it is accessible on the net. The CPD will never be
finished and the comprehensive Pali-Burmese dictionary will probably never
be completed either.

Best wishes,

Ole Pind

1773
From: Ashin Pandita <ashinpan@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:52 am 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?

Dear Teng Kee

You wrote:
> I have these two volumes.The author is ashin Ukkamsabhivamsa.Although  the
book is big but it is just normal burmese tranlsation .The notes  are not useful
at all.
>
Are you sure that "the notes are not useful"? Actually, I can't say much
about those books because I belong to another school while these volumes
are of Mandalay tradition. However, I do know that there is a
prestigious exam at Mandalay known as Sakyasiiha, and a student wishing
to enter that exam must digest the whole Ruupasiddhi-ga.n.thi to answer
the paper on Grammar.

with metta

Ven. Pandita

1774
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:21 am 
Subject: Re: SV: CPED  

Ole,

Thanks for the observations.  I suppose I was thinking more of monks
than lay people...  Some monks are able to do amazing things without
getting paid for them. I suppose it was simple naivety to think that
very many such monks still exist today :)

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> <I'm currently wrestling with the whole idea, as I have an electronic
> edition of the PTS PED that would be really useful for others, but for the
> existence of a society founded by the dead authors of the dictionary.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Yuttadhammo>
>
> We need good Pali grammars i.e. grammars in the traditional sense including
> a large section on syntax. Such grammars do not exist. We need good Pali
> dictionaries. Unfortunately good grammarians and lexicographers in this
> field are as rare as the Tathagatas. And the few in existence would, not
> surprisingly, like to get payed for their laborious and time consuming work.
> To the best of my knowledge the new PED is still incomplete. The old one is
> useful but dated; it is accessible on the net. The CPD will never be
> finished and the comprehensive Pali-Burmese dictionary will probably never
> be completed either.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Ole Pind
>

1775
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:09 pm 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?  

Dear Ven. Pandita,

Thanks for the suggestion. I came to know of the Burmese Mahadhammika centre
in Toronto a few years ago but have never visited it. I'll certainly
consider contacting them and U Nandasiri about matters relating to Pali
grammatical texts in Myanmar.

Jim

You wrote:
> My master is residing at Canada. His name is U Nandasiri. You can check
> how to contact him here. <http://www.mahadhammika.com/14-contacts-b.html>
> I think he would come to Canada from Taiwan at the end of this month.
> (He has temples both in Taiwan and Canada). At least, he can help you
> find out whether a book is Pali text or not.  However, he has spent his
> time more at Taiwan than at Canada, so his English won't be so good. It
> would be best if you can contact some of Burmese devotees residing there.

1776
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:43 pm 
Subject: Re: Ruupasiddhiga.n.thi ?

Certainly  Rupasiddhi bhadha tika is better  with a lot of notes.

Ashin Pandita <ashinpan@gmail.com> wrote:  Dear Teng Kee

You wrote:
>  I have these two volumes.The author is ashin Ukkamsabhivamsa.Although  the
book is big but it is just normal burmese tranlsation .The notes  are not useful
at all.
>
Are you sure that "the notes are not useful"? Actually, I can't say much
about those books because I belong to another school while these volumes
are of Mandalay tradition. However, I do know that there is a
prestigious exam at Mandalay known as Sakyasiiha, and a student wishing
to enter that exam must digest the whole Ruupasiddhi-ga.n.thi to answer
the paper on Grammar.

with metta

Ven. Pandita

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1777
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:48 am 
Subject: Re: SV: CPED  

The general, international rule governing copyright is to count 75
years after the author's death; there are a few special exceptions to
this (e.g., Mickey Mouse is still copyrighted because the U.S. house
of congress passed a law to protect "him" from the public domain) but
the general rule will apply (e.g.) to the 1st edition of the PTS
dictionary.  Indian publishers have already re-printed the 1st PTS
dictionary as public domain; however, corrected or revised editions
will have their own copyrights with their own dates of lapsing.

The simplest way for a text to become public domain is by the express
wish of its author; this was the case with the Cambodian textbook I
put on the internet a few years ago --and apparently it is the case
with Buddhadhatta's dictionaries (although I do not see any such
notice in the printed text...).

There is a huge bulk of Pali resources that can be re-printed or
digitized and distributed freely --most of the old editions I was
looking at (and reporting upon) in Sri Lanka would fall under this
heading.  Given that there is so much that can be legally done (and
has not yet been done) to provide resources for scholars, I would
leave future generations to take their turn at what is still under
copyright.

Does anyone want to reprint Tha Do Oung's grammar?  Or make a new
edition of C. Duroiselle's?

E.M.

1778
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:47 am 
Subject: lost Pali grammars  

One major problem of writing a history of indigeneous Pali grammar and
grammarians is that works written in the early post-Kaccayana period are no
longer extant. If members of the group know of or have heard of ms.s of, or
seen ms. catalogues or even hand lists of Pali grammatical lit. including
the Ma.njuusaa alias Cuu.laniruttiva.n.nanaa, I would appreciate getting the
information. To the best of my knowledge the work was still extant in ms. in
Burma in 18th century, and if the ravages of war and other vicissitudes have
spared the few ms. copies, the likelihood that it is still found somewhere
in Myanmar is not entirely impossible.

Regards,

Ole Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1779
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:12 am 
Subject: Re: lost Pali grammars

Dear Ole,

Here is a list of Burmese script Kaccaayana commentaries and
subcommentaries found in Sri Lanka. The one you need might be among them.

Best wishes,
                        Bh. Nyanatusita

01.  /Gandhaahara.na-.tiikaava. /

/Kaccaayana, Sandhikappa/: 305 Bu part, 335 Bu, 359 Bu part, 398 2 Bu,
630 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa (dutiya), Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa/: 305 Bu, 630 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa (puraa.na), Dutiya Mahaa Anu.tiikaa,
Nirutti-saara-ma~njusaa/

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa (puraa.na), Dutiya Mahaa Anu.tiikaa,
Nirutti-saara-ma~njusaa/: 305 2 Bu, 369 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa (puraa.na), Mukhamatta-diipanii, Nyaasa/: 630 2 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa (tatiya), Kaccaayana suttaniddesa/: 305 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa Dutiya/: 424 Bu*, 506 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa Pa.thama, Dutiya-mahaa-anu.tiikaa,
Niruttisaarama~njusa/: 506 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa Pa.thama, Kaccaayana-vutti-va.n.nanaa, Nyaasa/: 424
Bu* 2.

/Kaccaayana-.tiikaa Tatiya/: 424 Bu*.

/Kaccaayana-bheda/: 75 Bu*.

/Kaccaayana-bheda-puraa.na-.tiikaa/: 47 Bu*.

/Kaccaayana-saara/: 630 Bu.

/Kaccaayana-saara-nava-.tiikaa/: 506 Bu.

02.  /Kaccaayana-saaraya-nirutti. /

/Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa, Kaccaayana-.tiikaa (dutiya)/: 305 Bu, 630 Bu.

/Niruttisaara-ma~njuusaa/

/Nirutti-vibhaavanii-.tiikaa/

03.  /Saddabindu. Kaarikaa.           /

04.  /Saddavuttippakaasinii. /

05.  /Sadda-vuttiya haa .tiikaava. /

06.  /Sambandhacintaa-vibhatti-vibhaaga. /

07.  /Vibhaktyartthaya-nayalaksha.navibhaavinii/






Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> One major problem of writing a history of indigeneous Pali grammar and
> grammarians is that works written in the early post-Kaccayana period are no
> longer extant. If members of the group know of or have heard of ms.s of, or
> seen ms. catalogues or even hand lists of Pali grammatical lit. including
> the Ma.njuusaa alias Cuu.laniruttiva.n.nanaa, I would appreciate getting the
> information. To the best of my knowledge the work was still extant in ms. in
> Burma in 18th century, and if the ravages of war and other vicissitudes have
> spared the few ms. copies, the likelihood that it is still found somewhere
> in Myanmar is not entirely impossible.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ole Pind

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1780
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:18 am 
Subject: Re: SV: CPED

Dear Eisel,
> The general, international rule governing copyright is to count 75
> years after the author's death; there are a few special exceptions to
> this (e.g., Mickey Mouse is still copyrighted because the U.S. house
> of congress passed a law to protect "him" from the public domain) but
> the general rule will apply (e.g.) to the 1st edition of the PTS
> dictionary.  Indian publishers have already re-printed the 1st PTS
> dictionary as public domain; however, corrected or revised editions
> will have their own copyrights with their own dates of lapsing.
>

Here in SL it seems to be 50 years, but I will inquire more. In Burma it
seems that there is no copyright law at all.
> The simplest way for a text to become public domain is by the express
> wish of its author; this was the case with the Cambodian textbook I
> put on the internet a few years ago --and apparently it is the case
> with Buddhadhatta's dictionaries (although I do not see any such
> notice in the printed text...).
>
I am doing some more research on the Buddhadatta dictionary. I am sure
that he himself would not have had any objections.


I might have found someone in England who can sponsor the republication
of Duroiselle's grammar by the BPS.

NT

1781
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:13 am 
Subject: SV: lost Pali grammars  

Dear Nyanatusita,

Thank you very much for the information.It is very useful to me. The
manjusaa was known to Vimalabusshi, the author of the Nyaasa and Buddhapiya,
the author Ruupasiddhi and its .tiikaa. It is mentioned in the Kaarikaa
verse 47 together with Nyaasa, Ruupasiddhi and the Atthavyaakhyaana. The
latter is quoted many time in the 15th century Suttaniddesa. It must have
been considered an important commentary.

Best wishes,
Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Nyanatusita
Sendt: 30. april 2006 13:13
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] lost Pali grammars

Dear Ole,

Here is a list of Burmese script Kaccaayana commentaries and subcommentaries
found in Sri Lanka. The one you need might be among them.

Best wishes,
                        Bh. Nyanatusita

01.  /Gandhaahara.na-.tiikaava. /

1782
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:45 am 
Subject: Re: SV: CPED  

Dear Ven. Nyanatusita,

> I might have found someone in England who can sponsor the republication
> of Duroiselle's grammar by the BPS.

I noticed that Duroiselle's grammar is still available for sale in Myanmar.
Myanmarbook.com sells it for $20 usd plus shiipping. I'm not sure if this is
the original 1906 edition or a newer reprint of it. I think someone on the
other Pali list mentioned that it could be bought at a bookstore near the
International Theravada Buddhist Missionary University in Yangon. Perhaps
BPS should wait until this grammar is no longer available from Myanmar
before republishing it.

Best wishes,
Jim

1783
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:53 pm 
Subject: Duroiselle Grammar

Dear Jim and Ole,

Thanks for the info.

Jim, I could not find any Duroiselle grammar on Myanmar.com. Can you
give more details? If someone could let me know the quality of this
print then I would appreciate it. I never heard about this Burmese
reprint. Besides not being easily available, it is also very expensive.
The BPS could sell it abroad for half the price and locally for one fourth.

Ole, regarding the digital edition that has been put on several
websites: I am well aware of it. Eisel helped with converting it to
Unicode. There are quite a few mistakes in it though and it has never
been sufficiently proofread.

NT

1784
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:22 pm 
Subject: Duroiselle Grammar

Dear Jim,

I found the grammar on
http://myanmarbook.com/DataPages/book_d.asp?cn=&mode=vd&bid=E0339&m=
bk&aid=

There is no indication when and how it was republished. Probably it is
just a photocopy.

Nt

1785
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 12:53 am 
Subject: Re: SV: CPED  

Bhante Nyanatusita is correct that Burma has no international
copyright law: their status as a "pariah state" has excluded them from
international conventions on copyright (inter alia).

It may be that Sri Lanka had a fifty year rule prior to a given date
--but I would expect that they have since signed the international
convention of 75 years.  Something similar happened in Australia, so
the rule is 50 years before lapsing for works prior to day-X, or 75
years if published after year-X.

Note that the laws for songs and audio recordings are entirely
different; this could actually be an issue for some Pali resources in
some media!

> I might have found someone in England who can sponsor the republication
> of Duroiselle's grammar by the BPS.

Well, I'm very busy with other projects right now, but if you want me
to "get serious" about revising Duroiselle, I've already made
extensive comparative readings of his charts with other sources, etc.,
so at some point in the future I could drop whatever I'm doing and
work on a new edition of D. (with *real* tables and charts instead of
the current e-text...).  Really, I could spend four month in S.L. (or
something) and get this done, while waiting around vainly for the
Maha-Mula temple to show us their MS ...

E.M.

1786
From: ashinpan@gmail.com 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:17 am 
Subject: copyright in Burma

Dear Eisel

You wrote:

Bhante Nyanatusita is correct that Burma has no international
> copyright law: their status as a "pariah state" has excluded them from
> international conventions on copyright (inter alia).


You are right in that Burma  is a "pariah state" at present but it has
nothing to do with copyrights. Burma does have copyright laws for local
publishers but all successive governments since achieving independence in
1948 have refused to sign international copyright conventions.

Their reasoning is simple. Burma is a poor country. If international
copyright laws are to be followed, Burmese publishers must give royalities
or license fees to their international counterparts for reprints or
translations, which would have become too expensive for the most of Burmese
readers.  So their attitude is "to live and let live" --- Burma won't claim
protection for her intellectual property abroad, and no foreigner can claim
theirs in Burma.

with metta

Ven. Pandita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1787
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 1:34 am 
Subject: Re: Duroiselle Grammar  

One of the interesting aspects of Duroiselle's grammar is that it is
based on an "empirical method" of providing descriptive (not
prescriptive) information about the language as he found it in the
canon --and (perhaps especially) in the Jatakas.

The result is that Duroiselle lists many more forms than other authors
(ancient or modern) --many that are not "Kaccayana's Pali", but are
perhaps interesting or useful to students none-the-less.

In preparing a new edition, one might highlight or contrast this --it
could be as simple as putting some forms/sections in bold-text or
footnoting them to indicate where D. is describing a paracanonical
feature of the language.  I assume that somebody at some point has
written an authoritative article on these features that differentiate
"Jataka Pali" from its earlier antecedent (or, indeed, Commentarial
Pali?) --but I have never read such an article.  Many sources I've
read dismiss these differences as "minor" or "unimportant" --but I
suspect that this is because (as F. Bacon says) "it is one thing to
come to satisfaction, and quite another to do the work".  In my
comparative reading of D. (now several years ago!) I found some of the
differences not so minor at all; of course (as I've said before) Kacc.
himself presents a somewhat different picture of the language than
what the empirical method would reveal in Pali canon --and the reason
for this is a worthy subject of speculation.

Duroiselle's grammar could be massively expanded/improved in many
respects --I think the most obvious is in the section on syntax, as
discussed on this list many months ago.  Correction of "pure errors"
(typographical errors, etc.) would be fairly easy work.

I'll note that Duroiselle wrote a few other books on Pali --I reported
a few minor works to this list while I was in Sri Lanka, and I belive
Bhante Nyanatusita photographed one (a small exercise book on
poetics?).

E.M.

1788
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:36 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: lost Pali grammars

Dear Ole,

Can you send some more details on this ''Ma.njuusaa alias
Cuu.laniruttiva.n.nanaa''. There are many Pali works that include the
name Ma~njusaa and it is not so useful. Cuu.laniruttiva.n.nanaa suggests
that it is a commentary on the Cullanirutti.

In my list I found:

5.0.2 C-nir  Culla-nirutti (Yamaka mahthera) (Cf Cullanirutti at
5.4.17.) HP 185, PSC 89, PLB 105.


and

5.4.17  (Abhinava-) Culla-nirutti (-pakaraa) (?, Saddharmbhilakra
thera) (Cf 5.0.2)  HP 185f, LCM 2067, BnF 495.

           Culla-nirutti-majus  PLB 107.

           Majus-k-vykhyna  PLB 107.



There are MSS with the Abhinava Cullanirutti in SL, but this would not
be the one you need. I suppose that you are referring to 5.0.2 by Yamaka
Mahaathera, rather than 5.4.17 by Saddharmaabhilan.kaara.

Maybe the Culla-nirutti-majusaa is identical with the Cullanirutti? I
have no time now to check out Pali Literature of Burma.


In the Lankaawe Pusko.la Pot Naamaawaliya by Somadasa vol. 1:
''Cullanirutti (abhinava), Abhinava Cullanirutti'' is listed, which is
5.4.17.
In Vol. II there is the entry: ''Cullanirutti, Cullaniruttippakara.na,
Cuu.lanirutti, Nawawuucullanirutti'' are listed. The first three could
be the one you need. The last one must be 5.4.17.

The Handbook of Pali Literature (p. 185) gives the following info on the
Cullanirutti: ''Cullanirutti is a Pali grammar composed by Ven. Yamaka.
It has been shown that this work must have been written before the
writing of the Mukhamattadiipanii for the latter refers to the former.
It maintains that the Pali alphabet has 40 letters only and leaves out
the cerebral .l.''

Next entry: ''Cuulanirutti or Abhinava-cuulanirutti by Ven.
Saddhammaalan.kaara is a short grammatical work on the formation of Pali
words. Its name is given in the colophon: 'Cuulanirutti-pakara.na.m
ni.t.thita.m' ... The last stanza gives the name of the author: '....''. ''

Best wishes,

Nyanatusita

Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Nyanatusita,
>
> Thank you very much for the information.It is very useful to me. The
> manjusaa was known to Vimalabusshi, the author of the Nyaasa and
Buddhapiya,
> the author Ruupasiddhi and its .tiikaa. It is mentioned in the Kaarikaa
> verse 47 together with Nyaasa, Ruupasiddhi and the Atthavyaakhyaana. The
> latter is quoted many time in the 15th century Suttaniddesa. It must have
> been considered an important commentary.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ole
>
>
>
> Ole Holten Pind wrote:
>
>> One major problem of writing a history of indigeneous Pali grammar and
>> grammarians is that works written in the early post-Kaccayana period
>> are no longer extant. If members of the group know of or have heard of
>> ms.s of, or seen ms. catalogues or even hand lists of Pali grammatical
>> lit. including the Ma.njuusaa alias Cuu.laniruttiva.n.nanaa, I would
>> appreciate getting the information. To the best of my knowledge the
>> work was still extant in ms. in Burma in 18th century, and if the
>> ravages of war and other vicissitudes have spared the few ms. copies,
>> the likelihood that it is still found somewhere in Myanmar is not entirely
>>
> impossible.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ole Pind

>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1789
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 2:24 am 
Subject: cetaapana/cetaapanna

Dear Ole,

Could you maybe explain the variation between cetaapanna and cetaapana.
All editions and mss of the Suttavibhan.ga and Paatimokkha I have
consulted, except the Thai printed ones, read cetaapanna (as part the
compound ciivaracetaapanna) in Nissaggiya Paacittiya rule 8-10.

Cetaapana is an action-noun and as part of the cpd (which I take as a
dative tappurisa) it means: ''exchange-fund for a robe''. Another monk
suggested that cetaapanna could be an adjective that has come about by
cetaapana + ya > cetaapanya > cetaapanna in line with
kammaniya/kamma~n~na. However, then cetaapa~n~na would be expected and
it would make the compound a bahubbihi (''exchangeable for a robe'')
that would need to qualify a noun, which is not found here.

Regards,
                     Bh. Nyanatusita

1790
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 6:31 am 
Subject: Re: SV: abhihat.thu.m

Dear Ole,

Today I was looking again at the abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya construction
and the solution you suggested end March (see below).

I like your suggestion as it would make good sense. However, the only
problem is that the basic meaning of the verb abhiharati in this
context, and also other contexts, appears to be: ''brings toward'' or
''presents'', not ''takes away''.

See the Suttavibhanga explanation to Paacittiya 35 in Vin IV 82:

Vin IV 82: "Pavaarito naama aasana.m pa~n~naayati, bhojana.m
pa~n~naayati, hatthapaase .thito abhiharati, pa.tikkhepo pa~n~naayati."
: ''Invited: a seat is evident; food is evident; he presents standing
within arms-length ; the refusal is evident.''

What do you think about this?

Regards,
Bh. Nyanatusita


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Nyanatusita,
>
> This is a very interesting problem. Andersen and Smith assumed that
> abhiha.t.thu.m is an absolutive. Their opinion was evidently influenced by
> the commentators who invariably, so it seems, gloss the term by means of an
> absolutive. Now the use of an absolutive immediately before a finite verb
> is, I believe, uncommon i Pali. The idea to interpret it as a .namul would
> in fact make much better sense. The only problem is the termination. A

1791
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:41 am 
Subject: SV: SV: abhihat.thu.m  

Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,

It is correct that abhiharati means to bring, to offer or the like. I was
extrapolating from recorded Sanskrit usage where
Abhiharati also means to carry off, cf. derivatives like abhihara/haara that
denotes the action of bringing near as well as that of taking away, robbing.
This I thought would make sense in this particular case: I thought that it
would make sense if the upaasaka invited the monk to bring (with him) i.e.
to take away the parikkhaaras he had brought him.  The difference depends
upon whether or not the agent of abhiha.tthu.m is the monk or the upaasaka.
I thought that if we assume that the agent is the monk, we can make sense
out of it without having to make assumptions about the infinitive being an
absolutive. Does this make sense?

Best wishes,
Ole


-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Nyanatusita
Sendt: 1. maj 2006 12:31
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: [palistudy] abhihat.thu.m

Dear Ole,

Today I was looking again at the abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya construction and
the solution you suggested end March (see below).

1792
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 1, 2006 9:45 am 
Subject: Re: Duroiselle Grammar  

Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,

I have copied and pasted below the book information from the MBC website. It
would appear that it is a hard cover edition (note the "hc"). I'm currently
in contact with MBC concerning my order of some Pali grammatical texts
published by the Burmese government. I will try and find out more about
Duroiselle's grammar. I agree that it is rather expensive but if it's the
original 1906 printing then I suppose it's not so bad for a rare book.

I learned over the weekend from a list-member who just spent a week in
Yangon that the Kaccaayanabyaakara.na published by the government can be
bought over the counter at the Ministry of Religion bookstore for 1000 kyats
(about 75 cents). However, for those who, like me, order via the internet
from MBC the price is $10 plus shipping.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< Book Number
E0339
LC Control Number
0
Author
DUROISELLE, CHARLES

Title
-
A Practical Grammer of the Pali Language
Year of Publication
1906
Details
Rangoon, 346pg, 18cm, hc

Annotation
This thoroughly written book very useful for those who are interested to
learn Pali language.
Price
$20 >>

Bh. Nyanatusita wrote:
> I found the grammar on
>
http://myanmarbook.com/DataPages/book_d.asp?cn=&mode=vd&bid=E0339&m=
bk&aid=
>
> There is no indication when and how it was republished. Probably it is
> just a photocopy.
>
> Nt

1793
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 2, 2006 6:29 am 
Subject: Pali audio recordings  

Apparently the majority of this first set of recordings are from
Arakanese monks, with a few monks native to various provinces of
India:

http://www.brelief.org/reports/chant.html

A separate set of recordings, again with many Arakanese vocalists, as
well as Burmese and mainland Indian reciters as indicated:

http://www.brelief.org/reports/patthana/index.html

E.M.

1794
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 2, 2006 1:42 am 
Subject: Re: SV: SV: abhihat.thu.m nyanatusita@gmail.com 

Dear Ole,

Yes, it makes good sense, but the understanding of the early tradition
of abhiharati does not seem to support it. The passage I quoted from the
Vibhanga is an early commentary.

Regards,
Bh. Nyanatusita


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Bh. Nyanatusita,
>
> It is correct that abhiharati means to bring, to offer or the like. I was
> extrapolating from recorded Sanskrit usage where
> Abhiharati also means to carry off, cf. derivatives like abhihara/haara that
> denotes the action of bringing near as well as that of taking away, robbing.

1795
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu May 4, 2006 3:44 pm 
Subject: SV: SV: SV: abhihat.thu.m  

Dear Bhante,

I have had a close look at the old comment at Vin IV 82. It seems to me that
it would corroborate my suspicion. The commentary addresses the meaning of
pavaarito i.e. a monk who has been invited to an upaasaka's home for an alms
meal. The commentator appears to understand the phrase hatthapaase .thito
abhiharati as referring to the upaasaka. However, this sudden change of
agent is remarkable because we would then have to assume that .thito refers
to the posture of the upaasaka. I find that unlikely. It must refer, I
think, to the monk who takes (abhiharati) i.e. receives the meal hatthapaase
.thito. The CPD records abhiharati in the sense to receive.

Best wishes,

Ole Pind



<Yes, it makes good sense, but the understanding of the early tradition of
abhiharati does not seem to support it. The passage I quoted from the
Vibhanga is an early commentary.

Regards,
Bh. Nyanatusita>

1796
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 6, 2006 1:51 pm 
Subject: Abhihatthum

Dear Ole,

A change of agent would indeed seem strange. In this sense
abhihatthu.mpavaareyya would mean ''should
invite to receive (as much as he likes)''. Judging from the context and
Padabhaajana, the expression appears to carry an idiomatic meaning.

In Sanskrit */abhiharati/* can have the meaning ''removes'' and ''carries
off'' (besides ''brings near'') and maybe what is intended is that the
monk himself takes/removes food from a tray of food (or a heap of
robe-cloth) in the hands of a layperson. This often happens when going
on alms or at a daana. Maybe simply ''should invite to take (as much as
he likes)'' will be the best translation.

This being said, how does one explain the instrumental in the Vinaya rule:
''bahuuhi ciivarehi abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya.'' If abhiha.t.thu.m would
have the meaning of ''to take'' or ''to receive'', wouldn't one expect an
accusative instead of an instrumental?

By the way, how can the Sanskrit word have two opposing meanings, i.e.,
''brings near'' and ''takes away''?

Have you been able to find out more about the Cullanirutti and its author?

Kind regards,
                            Bh. Nyanatusita


Ole Holten Pind wrote:

Dear Bhante,

I have had a close look at the old comment at Vin IV 82. It seems to me that

it would corroborate my suspicion. The commentary addresses the meaning of
pavaarito i.e. a monk who has been invited to an upaasaka's home for an alms

meal. The commentator appears to understand the phrase hatthapaase .thito
abhiharati as referring to the upaasaka. However, this sudden change of
agent is remarkable because we would then have to assume that .thito refers
to the posture of the upaasaka. I find that unlikely. It must refer, I
think, to the monk who takes (abhiharati) i.e. receives the meal hatthapaase

.thito. The CPD records abhiharati in the sense to receive.
Best wishes,

Ole Pind



<Yes, it makes good sense, but the understanding of the early tradition of
abhiharati does not seem to support it. The passage I quoted from the
Vibhanga is an early commentary.

Regards,
Bh. Nyanatusita>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1797
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun May 7, 2006 4:08 am 
Subject: SV: Abhihatthum  

<A change of agent would indeed seem strange. In this sense
abhihatthu.mpavaareyya would mean ''should invite to receive (as much as he
likes)''. Judging from the context and Padabhaajana, the expression appears
to carry an idiomatic meaning.>

Yes, I think that is beyond doubt.

<In Sanskrit */abhiharati/* can have the meaning ''removes'' and ''carries
off'' (besides ''brings near'') and maybe what is intended is that the monk
himself takes/removes food from a tray of food (or a heap of
robe-cloth) in the hands of a layperson. This often happens when going on
alms or at a daana. Maybe simply ''should invite to take (as much as he
likes)'' will be the best translation.>

Yes, I agree, and this interpretation is corroborated by the Vibha.nga.
Explanation: "take as much as you like."

<This being said, how does one explain the instrumental in the Vinaya rule:
''bahuuhi ciivarehi abhiha.t.thu.m pavaareyya.'' If abhiha.t.thu.m would
have the meaning of ''to take'' or ''to receive'', wouldn't one expect an
accusative instead of an instrumental?>

The use of the instrumental arises, I think, from the fact that pavaar-
invariably is constructed with the instrumental of the thing that the monk
is invited to take; he is e.g. invited for a meal or robes (instr.) to take.
Here, I believe, we have an example of the idiomatic meaning you mention
above.>

<By the way, how can the Sanskrit word have two opposing meanings, i.e.,
''brings near'' and ''takes away''?>

I think one might explain the usage from the point of view of the agent: for
instance, the case where someone brings something to someone else, who
subsequently "brings" it to himself i.e. appropriates it, takes is, carries
it away.

<Have you been able to find out more about the Cullanirutti and its author?>

The Cullanirutti is attributed to Yamakamahaathera who is otherwise unknown.
His work was commented upon by Some Patan.jali in Cullaniruttiva.n.nanaa
alias Ma.njuusaa. Many years ago I discovered that this work quoted slightly
edited verses from the grammarian Bhartrhari's Vaakyapadiiya. I have been
looking for ms.s of this work ever since, alas without success.

Best regards,

Ole Pind



Kind regards,
                            Bh. Nyanatusita


Ole Holten Pind wrote:

Dear Bhante,

I have had a close look at the old comment at Vin IV 82. It seems to me that

it would corroborate my suspicion. The commentary addresses the meaning of
pavaarito i.e. a monk who has been invited to an upaasaka's home for an alms

meal. The commentator appears to understand the phrase hatthapaase .thito
abhiharati as referring to the upaasaka. However, this sudden change of
agent is remarkable because we would then have to assume that .thito refers
to the posture of the upaasaka. I find that unlikely. It must refer, I
think, to the monk who takes (abhiharati) i.e. receives the meal hatthapaase

.thito. The CPD records abhiharati in the sense to receive.
Best wishes,

Ole Pind



<Yes, it makes good sense, but the understanding of the early tradition of
abhiharati does not seem to support it. The passage I quoted from the
Vibhanga is an early commentary.

Regards,
Bh. Nyanatusita>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1798
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 11:02 pm 
Subject: Eisel changes mailing address  

A brief note to the list:

   As several members of this list have been kind enough to send me
resources by mail, I will note that my current mailing address should
now be regarded as "defunct".  I'll set up a new post-office box (or
equivalent) in the near future --but please get in touch with me by
e-mail prior to any future mailings, as I am now parting ways from my
former employer.

   Many thanks to both Jim & George Bedell who conspired to send me
this 2005 edition of Kaccayana from Burma.  I am very glad that the
Burmese re-issued the text so recently --when I started work on Kacc.
all of the editions seemed quite old and obscure, and this new
printing may make the text more readily available to us all.

E.M.

1799
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 11, 2006 11:05 pm 
Subject: New pali scholarship center in central Thailand  

This week marked the grand opening of a new library and "scholarly
hub" for Pali & Buddhist studies in Nakhon Pathom (not Nakhon Panom)
--it has a mandate for both Thai and English language resources and
instruction.

Although this is not the first attempt to create such a "hub" for
Buddhist scholarship in Thailand (there seem to be a few failed
attempts in Bangkok...) there are various positive indicators in terms
of its affiliations with major universities, etc., and the bare fact
that it is trying to build a real library collection bodes well for
it.

It is also mandated to provide free resources (English and Thai) on
the internet.  I'll see if I can visit its grounds in the near future
--the opening ceremony is today, so it is not yet fully functional.

E.M.

1800
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri May 12, 2006 2:39 am 
Subject: Padarupasiddhi  

Dear Friends,

Just a note that while in Bangkok I found a treasury of Pali texts in
section 25 of Wat Mahadhatu library. Everything is either in Thai or
Thai Pali, but it looks like they have the whole set of four
บาลิใหญ่
texts, along with some manuals and handbooks to explain them (one of the
head teachers there wrote a 7 volume set explaining the four texts,
which is currently out of stock). I received a free copy of the
Padarupasiddhi in Thai Pali (to compliment the Thai translation found at
Wat Doi Suthep), and Ven. Dhammanando, whom I brought to take a look at
the resources there, asked for and received what I think is one of the
commentaries to it - whether it was in Thai or Thai Pali, he'll have to
tell himself.

They also generously gave me a copy of the Visuddhimagga in Thai and a
very interesting nissaya translation (into Thai) of the first book of
the Digha Nikaya. All of the books are hardcover, brand new, and too big
to fit into my large alms bowl. In general, I think this might be the
place to find Pali grammatical texts (or to send donations for further
reprints, as the case may be).

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1801
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri May 12, 2006 3:55 am 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

I used to study in this section of Wat Mahadhatu. It was
actually founded by the lineage of Phra Dhammananda from Burma
(based at Wat Thamma-O). The head teacher, Phra Sompong
Mudito, is a very dedicated teacher and kind person.
Yes, he indeed does a lot of work and receives very little
funding. However, he has gathered lots of lay and ordained
students for evening classes, including many lay women and Mae
Chi.
Thanks for bringing his work to the attention of the group.
Best,
jm


---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:39:40 +0700
>From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org>
>Subject: [palistudy] Padarupasiddhi
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Dear Friends,
>
>Just a note that while in Bangkok I found a treasury of Pali
texts in
>section 25 of Wat Mahadhatu library. Everything is either in
Thai or
>Thai Pali, but it looks like they have the whole set of four
บาลิใหญ่

1802
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 12, 2006 10:02 am 
Subject: Re: Eisel changes mailing address  

Hi Eisel,

Your change of address comes at a critical time as I have placed a Burmese
version of the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (likely a 2003 reprint) on my order
with the instruction for it to be mailed directly to you in Laos. Not having
an address, what should I do? Cancel it? Put it on hold? I'm having five
books sent to me in Canada and will write up a report on the trials
and tribulations of ordering Pali grammatical texts from Myanmar.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< As several members of this list have been kind enough to send me
resources by mail, I will note that my current mailing address should
now be regarded as "defunct".  I'll set up a new post-office box (or
equivalent) in the near future --but please get in touch with me by
e-mail prior to any future mailings, as I am now parting ways from my
former employer. >>

1803
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 12, 2006 10:16 am 
Subject: Re: Duroiselle Grammar  

Dear Ven. Nyanatusita,

I asked Dr. Thant Thaw Kaung of the Myanmar Book Centre about the format of
this grammar and your hunch is correct. It's a photocopy. If BPS goes ahead
and republishes it, I'd be interested in ordering a copy for myself although
I think I'd prefer a reprint of the original 1906 edition rather than a 21st
cent. revised one.

Best wishes,
Jim

> I found the grammar on
>
http://myanmarbook.com/DataPages/book_d.asp?cn=&mode=vd&bid=E0339&m=
bk&aid=
>
> There is no indication when and how it was republished. Probably it is
> just a photocopy.
>
> Nt

1804
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 12, 2006 9:35 pm 
Subject: Re: Duroiselle Grammar

Dear Jim,
>
> I asked Dr. Thant Thaw Kaung of the Myanmar Book Centre about the format of
> this grammar and your hunch is correct. It's a photocopy. If BPS goes ahead
> and republishes it, I'd be interested in ordering a copy for myself although
> I think I'd prefer a reprint of the original 1906 edition rather than a 21st
> cent. revised one.
>

Why do you prefer a photocopy of the 1906 edition?

Best wishes,

Nt

1805
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 13, 2006 12:33 am 
Subject: Re: Eisel changes mailing address  

Hi Jim,

   Thanks very much for sending (yet more) resources to me in Laos
--don't worry, I've made that announcement with enough advance notice
that I should be able to receive the books you've already sent my way
without too much difficulty.

   The staff of my former employer simply notify me by e-mail when new
packages arrive, and I'll sort it out from there (eventually).

E.M.

1806
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 13, 2006 11:12 am 
Subject: Re: Eisel changes mailing address  

Dear Eisel,

Thanks for clearing up the matter. The Abhidhaanappadiipikaa should be
mailed out to you shortly and let's hope it *does* reach you within the next
few weeks. I've also ordered a copy for myself along with Kaccaayana's
grammar to replace the worn out 1986 copies I showed you at the cafe in
Toronto. In addition, I've ordered the Ruupasiddhi-.tiikaa, Niruttidiipanii,
and Moggallaanabyaakara.na.m. All for $10 each plus 15% shipping.

I hope you find the two books useful in your studies. They were sent to you
as we agreed upon during our meeting in Toronto in exchange for the two
photocopies of Kaccaayana's grammar you gave me, one in the Thai script and
the other in Sinhalese. In fact, I was looking them over just yesterday and
look forward to spending more time with them in the near future.

I will continue to make enquiries about Pali grammatical texts in Myanmar
and have just recontacted my friend Ven. U Thitzana who I first met in 1982.
I thought he might be able to help as he was the one who sent me the two
books I showed you. I've even asked him about the Ma~njuusaa that Ole
enquired about but haven't heard back yet. I've been told that he has the
Tipitaka memorized along with its commentaries but I'm not sure where he
stands with respect to the traditional Pali grammars.

Best wishes,
Jim

>   Thanks very much for sending (yet more) resources to me in Laos
> --don't worry, I've made that announcement with enough advance notice
> that I should be able to receive the books you've already sent my way
> without too much difficulty.
>
>   The staff of my former employer simply notify me by e-mail when new
> packages arrive, and I'll sort it out from there (eventually).
>
> E.M.

1807
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sat May 13, 2006 12:29 pm 
Subject: SV: cetaapana/cetaapanna  

Dear Bhante Nyanatusita,

I have spent some time on this problem without reaching a conclusion about
what might have motivated the difference of spelling. In addition, the word
itself is a mystery from the point of view of its derivation. It certainly
has no connection to ci nor to cit. The difference of spelling might have
originated in an attempt to explain the term as derived from ceta + aapanna.
Ceta, however, is a problem in itself.

Regards,
Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Nyanatusita
Sendt: 1. maj 2006 08:24
Til: Pali Study Group
Emne: [palistudy] cetaapana/cetaapanna

Dear Ole,

Could you maybe explain the variation between cetaapanna and cetaapana.
All editions and mss of the Suttavibhan.ga and Paatimokkha I have consulted,
except the Thai printed ones, read cetaapanna (as part the compound
ciivaracetaapanna) in Nissaggiya Paacittiya rule 8-10.

Cetaapana is an action-noun and as part of the cpd (which I take as a dative
tappurisa) it means: ''exchange-fund for a robe''. Another monk suggested
that cetaapanna could be an adjective that has come about by cetaapana + ya
> cetaapanya > cetaapanna in line with kammaniya/kamma~n~na. However, then
cetaapa~n~na would be expected and it would make the compound a bahubbihi
(''exchangeable for a robe'') that would need to qualify a noun, which is
not found here.

Regards,
                     Bh. Nyanatusita

1808
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 13, 2006 1:47 pm 
Subject: Re: Duroiselle Grammar  

Dear Ven. Nyanatusita,

I wrote:
> I asked Dr. Thant Thaw Kaung of the Myanmar Book Centre about the format
of
> this grammar and your hunch is correct. It's a photocopy. If BPS goes
ahead
> and republishes it, I'd be interested in ordering a copy for myself
although
> I think I'd prefer a reprint of the original 1906 edition rather than a
21st
> cent. revised one.

You asked:
<< Why do you prefer a photocopy of the 1906 edition? >>

I think you may have misread me as I wrote "reprint" not "photocopy". I
think of a photocopy as loose pages spewed out by a photocopy machine such
as a coin-operated one you'd find in a library. By "reprint", I'm thinking
of a republication in book form of the original 1906 edition with perhaps
the addition of a new preface and a few pages of corrigenda. By "revised",
I'm thinking of a totally new work with the original edition having
undergone some major changes by a different and later hand. I don't know
which you're thinking of publishing. I'm guessing that it is probably a
"revised" edition that you have in mind.

Best wishes,
Jim

1809
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 15, 2006 10:04 am 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

Dear Justin,

Do you have the address and whom to make payment to for those interested in
donating money for supporting the publication of Pali grammatical texts by
Buddhaghosa College?

I've had four of these wonderful texts sent to me and would like to make a
donation.

I don't know if I have a complete list of these publications, but I wonder
if the list of 23 grammatical texts on pages xxxix-xl of their
Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa could be it. It's near the end of Phra Maha Nimitr's
introduction (dated 2547). It begins with 1) Kaarikaa and ends with 23)
Niruttibhedasa"ngaha.

Best wishes and thanks for any information you can provide,

Jim

Your response to Phra Yuttadhammo's message:
> I used to study in this section of Wat Mahadhatu. It was
> actually founded by the lineage of Phra Dhammananda from Burma
> (based at Wat Thamma-O). The head teacher, Phra Sompong
> Mudito, is a very dedicated teacher and kind person.
> Yes, he indeed does a lot of work and receives very little
> funding. However, he has gathered lots of lay and ordained
> students for evening classes, including many lay women and Mae
> Chi.
> Thanks for bringing his work to the attention of the group.
> Best,
> jm
>

1810
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon May 15, 2006 8:35 pm 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

Dear Jim,

I don't know whether section 25 is related to Buddhaghosa College, but
they certainly have a wide selection of pali grammatical texts.  If
there is anyone wishing to send funds to support their work, please let
me know and I can get their address.  Phra Kru Varapanyakhun is the head
of the section, and he does most of the administrative work, I think.
Ajaan Sompong is still there, and Ajaan Panom is still involved.  There
are two other monks teaching there as well, Ajaan Chan and Ajaan
Somchai.  They all have extensive knowledge of Pali, and are all very
approachable, friendly people with very big hearts.  Taan Phra Kru told
me that they have approximately 200 students coming throughout the week
(ie not all at once), and Ajaan Sompong has undertaken many publishing
works, ranging from a seven volume set explaining the set of four Pali
grammars used in the Pali Yai studies, to a set of video CDs of the four
holy places in India and a set of MP3 CDs explaining the Visuddhimagga
in Thai.  All in all, section 25 is a good place to keep in mind.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo


Jim Anderson wrote:
> Dear Justin,
>
> Do you have the address and whom to make payment to for those interested in
> donating money for supporting the publication of Pali grammatical texts by
> Buddhaghosa College?
>
> I've had four of these wonderful texts sent to me and would like to make a
> donation.
>

1811
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon May 15, 2006 10:58 pm 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi

Ven. Yuttadhammo wrote:
> I received a free copy of the Padarupasiddhi in Thai Pali
> (to compliment the Thai translation found at Wat Doi
> Suthep), and Ven. Dhammanando, whom I brought to take a look
> at the resources there, asked for and received what I think
> is one of the commentaries to it - whether it was in Thai or
> Thai Pali, he'll have to tell himself.

I didn't actually ask for anything. I just enquired of the
phra khru who received us whether U Gandhasaaraabhiva.msa's
_Padaruupasiddhima~njarii_ was in print yet. He replied that
only the first volume was so far available, and then very
generously presented me with his own copy of it.

The work is one of about a dozen published in the last two
decades whose titles end in -ma~njarii. Each one is an
explanatory Thai translation of some Sinhalese or Burmese
treatise on Pali grammar, aesthetics or Netti studies. The
explanations accompanying each translation are by various
monks trained by U Dhammananda (Tha Ma O Sayadaw) and are
exceptionally thorough, drawing heavily upon a wide range of
Burmese grammar .tiikaas. In the case of the
Padaruupasiddhima~njarii, the first volume consists of a
translation of the first three chapters of the
Padaruupasiddhi (about 300 pages), with about 900 pages of
commentary by Gandhasaaraabhiva.msa. But alas, how will one
ever find the time to read it? When I meet with books like
this I find myself wishing that I had been born in one of
those aeons in which humans have lifespans of 84,000 years.

Justin wrote:
> I used to study in this section of Wat Mahadhatu. It was
> actually founded by the lineage of Phra Dhammananda from
> Burma (based at Wat Thamma-O). The head teacher, Phra
> Sompong Mudito, is a very dedicated teacher and kind person.
> Yes, he indeed does a lot of work and receives very little
> funding. However, he has gathered lots of lay and ordained
> students for evening classes, including many lay women and
> Mae Chi.

Indeed. We were told that there are now more than 200
laypeople attending the evening Pali and Abhidhamma classes
taught in Section 25. It seems to be part of a fairly
widespread (and very encouraging) revival of interest in
pariyatti among the Thai laity. In the Greater Bangkok area
alone there are now at least a dozen institutions offering
Pali Yai ("Great Pali", i.e., Kaccaayana-based) courses to
the laity. They are all free of charge, with some modelled
on the Burmese syllabus of U Dhammananda and others on the
Muula-kaccaayana one that was used in Thailand before the
reforms of Wachirayanawororot.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1812
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon May 15, 2006 10:58 pm 
Subject: Niggahiita in IPA?

Hello all,

For a chart I'm preparing showing SE Asian regional
variations in the pronunciation of Pali I want to represent
the normative pronunciation of Pali sounds (as described in
the grammars) in the International Phonetic Alphabet.

For the vagga nasals I have the following:

`n  [angma / n with leftward hook at right]
~n  [n with leftward hook at left]
.n    [n with rightward hook at right]
n     [n with subscript bridge]
m     [m]

but would welcome suggestions as to how (if at all) the
niggahiita would be represented in IPA. N.B., I am not
concerned here with how the niggahiita is generally realised
in Buddhist countries today, only with the sound as described
thus:

Buddhaghosa:
"niggahitan" ti ya.m kara.naani niggahetvaa avissajjetvaa
aviva.tena mukhena saanunaasika.m katvaa vattabba.m.
       (Vin-a. vii. 1399)

Buddhapiya:
_a.m-iti niggahiita.m_
_a_kaaro uccaara.nattho, 'iti'-saddo
panaanantaravuttanidassanattho, a.miti ya.m _a_kaarato
para.m vutta.m bindu, ta.m niggahiita.m naama hoti.
rassassara.m nissaaya gayhati, kara.na.m niggahetvaa
gayhatiiti vaa "niggahiita.m".
       kara.na.m niggahetvaana, mukhenaaviva.tena ya.m,
       vuccate niggahiitanti, vutta.m bindu saraanuga.m.
       (Padaruupasiddhi 10)

I am also having some trouble with the vowels; the
descriptions in the grammars don't seem to be sufficiently
detailed for one to make a definite identification of all of
them. But I'll post my questions on these later....

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1813
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 12:30 am 
Subject: Re: SV: cetaapana/cetaapanna

Dear Ole,

Thanks.

I thought the word cetaapanna/cetaapana is derived from the verb
cetaapeti, which according to PED is the ''Caus. of *cetati to *ci,*
collect''.  What is the problem with this?

Another question. Why is the numeral (compound form) ti doubled when
found medially in compounds, e.g, dvattipatta, ekatti.msa, dvatti.msa,
baatti.msa, etc. Is it because Pali ti corresponds to Sanskrit tri?

However, the doubling doesn't always take place, e.g., atirekatirattam,
dirattatiratta, ekuunati.msa. Why is this so?

In the case of dvatti, it could be explained by dvaa + ti > dvatti in
accordance with the law of Morae, but this can not be done with the
other examples.

The form baatti.msa is in disagreement with the law of Morae. I could
not find any reading baati.msa on CSCD. Maybe other editions have this
reading.

Kind regards,
                              Bh. Nyanatusita



Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Bhante Nyanatusita,
>
> I have spent some time on this problem without reaching a conclusion about
> what might have motivated the difference of spelling. In addition, the word
> itself is a mystery from the point of view of its derivation. It certainly
> has no connection to ci nor to cit. The difference of spelling might have
> originated in an attempt to explain the term as derived from ceta + aapanna.
> Ceta, however, is a problem in itself.
>
> Regards,
> Ole Pind

1814
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 2:20 am 
Subject: Re: Lanna script; observation on ".l" in Pyuu script

Hi Eisel,

A belated reply...

On 13 Dec 2005, at 1:31 pm, Eisel Mazard wrote:

> I will (eventually) create a file showing the differences
> (and similarities) for the Lanna, Lao, and Burmese scripts.
> I will probably create a separate page for Lao-Pali
> resources --and I think that the only printed resources
> explaining how the various scripts used for Pali on this
> span of the earth (from Sipsongpanna & Shan-Burma to
> Cambodia, with Lao & Lanna in the middle) are obscure Thai
> publications.

While I was in Lamphun I borrowed one of these "obscure Thai
publications" from my meditation teacher, Ajaan Sanit: _The
Evolution of Dham Lanna Alphabet_ (in Thai: rai ngaan kaan
wijai reuang kaan wiwat khorng ruup aksorn tham laan-naa),
by Kongkaew Weeraprajak and Niyadah Tasukon (National
Research Council, 1981). It's by far the most thorough study
that I've seen; every single letter has a whole chapter
covering its palaeographic history. If you're still in SE
Asia you might be interested in photocopying it, or at least
the impressive collection of charts in it.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1815
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 2:25 am 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

Dear Jim,

Buddhaghosa College and Section 25 of Mahachulalongkorn
Rajavidyalaya (Mahachula for short) are connected, but they
are not the same thing. Section 25 is not officially "in" Wat
Mahathat; however, section 25 is on the grounds of Wat
Mahathat (Mahaadhaatu) as part of Mahachulalongkorn Monastic
University.  A monk, mae chi, or novice can be a part of Wat
Mahathat and not be a student of Mahachulalongkorn and vice
versa. They share grounds, but are not completely connected
administratively.

As regards to Mahachulalongkorn Monastic University (one of
the two premier monastic universities in Thailand (Mahamakut
Monastic University being the other). Both have several branch
campuses. Buddhaghosa College is one of these branch campuses
(in Nakorn Pathom about 30 miles from Bangkok). It is a
specialists campus for the study of Pali grammar and
literature (Paliseuksa), as opposed to other divisions in
modern Thai monastic curricula--Dhammaseuksa and Samanseuksa.
In many ways Buddhaghosa College is becoming the "main campus"
of Mahachulalongkorn, because of classroom space problems and
transportation at Mahachula. I would guess that many teachers
and students will moce to the Nakorn Pathom campus over the
next ten years. The same thing is happening to the secular
Thammasat University (which is next to Mahachula) in Tha Phra
Chan. Undergraduates have been moved to the Rangsit Campus
near the Don Muang Airport because of space issues (and maybe
to take away the power of Thammasat U. as a center of Thai
"radicalism" over the past 35 years, many former socialist
professors at Thammasat have protested this move).

As for donations, Phra Yuttadhammo is absolutely correct.
Section 25 does great work and has lots of students who the
teachers serve for free. They also produce (esp. Phra Sompong)
lots of high quality books (expensive binding, good acid free
paper, etc.) and distribute them for free. I studied there and
was always treated with kindness (well, unless I made a
mistake with my Pali grammar -- then they were very tough!)
and was very impressed with the dedication of the teachers who
are crammed into a little building with a small basement
classroom. They need the donations and most likely were the
publishers of the books you received.

Buddhaghosa College is growing quickly and they are involved
with the Tripitaka project started out of Mahidol University.
I am not sure what direction they will take, but it certainly
is articulated by the teachers there as in the tradition of
Siamese "renewal." Some see this as Thai chauvanism and
triumphalism, others see it as a great start to jumpstarting
Pali study (which has become very fashionable among the middle
class in Bangkok). All the better I suppose. Still, these
projects can obscure as much as they illuminate, but the
intentions are good, and there are some really smart people
involved in the whole campus project.

I have written a book on this structure and the basic
breakdown of the history of the two universities lineages
(Mahachula and Mahamakut). It will be
published soon in a shortened form. I will tell you when it is
published (sometime in early 2007 I think).

I also wrote a basic overview of Pali Study in
Thailand, that will be part of larger project on contemporary
Pali scholarship in Thailand. It can be mailed as a draft to
interested parties (I would
like comments and criticism). I should have time when classes
end in June. The diacritics are in an old
system, so snail mailing would be the easiest. If you want
this basic overview please send me your address
and I will send you the draft.

As for contacting Buddhaghosa College, you can e-mail them at:
buddhakosa@hotmail.com or snail mail them at:
Mahachulalongkorn Rachawithayalai, Withayalai Baliseuksa
Phutthakot, Nakorn Pathom, Wat Mahasawatnakphuttharam, Tambon
Homkret, Amphur Samphran, Changwat Nakorn Pathom 73170. Or
call (034) 299-356. I would address your letter to: Chakkrit
Chandradam (assistant to the dean). Since they have trouble
cashing checks sometime, I would enquire about the way they
receive donations (probably wire transfer).

I hope this helps.

Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:04:43 -0400
>From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Padarupasiddhi
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Dear Justin,
>
>Do you have the address and whom to make payment to for those
interested in
>donating money for supporting the publication of Pali
grammatical texts by
>Buddhaghosa College?
>

1816
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 2:35 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Lanna script; observation on ".l" in Pyuu script  

Namaskara Ven. Phra Dhammanando,

Thanks for the message. I have not seen this book. I have
several script books produced in the 1980s and 90s in Laos and
Thai, but not this one. Do you find that it suppliments or
improves Harald Hundius' impressive "Scrift und Phonologie der
Nord Thai"? If so, I would certainly like to see a copy
myself. I am not planning a big project like Eisel, but am
simply curious to see the book and compare it others.

Can I send you funding necessary to copy it for me as well?

Thank you very much for calling this to the group's (via
Eisel) attention.

Respectfully,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:20:14 +0700
>From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Re: Lanna script; observation on ".l" in
Pyuu script
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Eisel,
>
>A belated reply...
>
>On 13 Dec 2005, at 1:31 pm, Eisel Mazard wrote:
>
>> I will (eventually) create a file showing the differences
>> (and similarities) for the Lanna, Lao, and Burmese scripts.
>> I will probably create a separate page for Lao-Pali
>> resources --and I think that the only printed resources
>> explaining how the various scripts used for Pali on this
>> span of the earth (from Sipsongpanna & Shan-Burma to
>> Cambodia, with Lao & Lanna in the middle) are obscure Thai
>> publications.

1817
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 4:50 am 
Subject: SV: Padarupasiddhi  

Would it be possible for you to mail me your overview of pali studies in
Thailand? If you have information on published Pali gramm. Lit. in Thailand
as well as catalogues of Pali gramm. lit. accessible in ms.s in Thailand, I
would be grateful to you, if you could tell me how to access it.

With kind regards,

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af justinm@ucr.edu
Sendt: 16. maj 2006 08:26
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Padarupasiddhi

Dear Jim,

Buddhaghosa College and Section 25 of Mahachulalongkorn Rajavidyalaya
(Mahachula for short) are connected, but they are not the same thing.
Section 25 is not officially "in" Wat Mahathat; however, section 25 is on
the grounds of Wat Mahathat (Mahaadhaatu) as part of Mahachulalongkorn
Monastic University.  A monk, mae chi, or novice can be a part of Wat
Mahathat and not be a student of Mahachulalongkorn and vice versa. They
share grounds, but are not completely connected administratively.

1818
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 5:36 am 
Subject: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?  

The description of the niggahiita (= Sanskrit anusvara) is seemingly obscure
and non-standard in the context of Indian grammatical literature. On the
other hand, it is difficult to get a clear idea of the actual articulation
of anusvara from its treatment in the works of the Sanskrit phoneticians, so
I guess that one description may be as good as any other. Buddhaghosa
appears to describe contemporary pronunciation, which according to him
involves not articulating any other sound by suppressing or checking the
organs of articulation (the karanaani) and producing the nasal through the
nose without the mouth being open. The Pali grammarians merely repeat
Buddhaghosa's explanation, sometimes adding an alternative explanation like
in Ruupasiddhi where it is explained that niggahiita is obtained (gayhati)
on the basis (nissaaya) of a preceding short vowel. As a technical term
niggahiita is slightly odd: the suppressed/checked (sound). It was evidently
named after the fact that its articulation follows the initial suppression
or checking of the organs of articulation as described by Buddhghosa.

Best regards,
Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Sendt: 16. maj 2006 04:58
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Niggahiita in IPA?

Hello all,

For a chart I'm preparing showing SE Asian regional variations in the
pronunciation of Pali I want to represent the normative pronunciation of
Pali sounds (as described in the grammars) in the International Phonetic
Alphabet.

For the vagga nasals I have the following:

`n  [angma / n with leftward hook at right]
~n  [n with leftward hook at left]
.n    [n with rightward hook at right]
n     [n with subscript bridge]
m     [m]

1819
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 5:58 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?

Hi,

> Buddhaghosa
>appears to describe contemporary pronunciation, which according to him
>involves not articulating any other sound by suppressing or checking the
>organs of articulation (the karanaani) and producing the nasal through the
>nose without the mouth being open.

Wouldn't this be the equivalent of the gutteral nasal? So that one could use:

" [n with leftward hook at right]" for the niggahita in isolation?

best regards,

/Rett

1820
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 6:01 am 
Subject: SV: SV: cetaapana/cetaapanna  

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Nyanatusita
Sendt: 16. maj 2006 06:30
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: SV: [palistudy] cetaapana/cetaapanna

Dear Ole,

Thanks.

<I thought the word cetaapanna/cetaapana is derived from the verb cetaapeti,
which according to PED is the ''Caus. of *cetati to *ci,* collect''.  What
is the problem with this?>

The problem is that this explanation does not explain /t/. We would then
have to assume that the verb is derived from the pp. cita which is unlikely.



<Another question. Why is the numeral (compound form) ti doubled when found
medially in compounds, e.g, dvattipatta, ekatti.msa, dvatti.msa, baatti.msa,
etc. Is it because Pali ti corresponds to Sanskrit tri?>

Yes.

<However, the doubling doesn't always take place, e.g., atirekatirattam,
dirattatiratta, ekuunati.msa. Why is this so?>

My own explanation would be that the compilers of the Paatimokkha tried to
avoid excessive gemination which invariably would entail prosodical length
and thus would have rythmical implications>

In the case of dvatti, it could be explained by dvaa + ti > dvatti in
accordance with the law of Morae, but this can not be done with the other
examples.

<The form baatti.msa is in disagreement with the law of Morae. I could not
find any reading baati.msa on CSCD. Maybe other editions have this reading.>

The reading baat.msa(.m) appears to be exclusively Burmese. The references I
have checked read as one would expect batti.msa.

Best regards,

Ole Pind

1821
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 7:54 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?

My suggestion on how to represent niggahiita in IPA is as follows.

      a.m  =  a~a
      i.m  =  i~i
      u.m  =  u~u
      e.m  =  e~e
      o.m  =  o~o

where '~' preceding a vowel means that vowel with a tilde above it, the
standard IPA representation of a nasalized vowel.  That is, niggahiita
is phonetically a nasalized extension of the vowel which precedes it.

This interpretation is not incompatible with passages like those quoted
from Buddhaghosa or Buddhapiya, but neither is it based on them.  I
doubt that they are intended primarily as phonetic descriptions; rather
they seem to be attempts to explain or motivate the name 'niggahiita',
as suggested by Ole Pind.  The absence of concern with phonetic detail
is noteworthy in the Pali tradition.  Every grammar treats sandhi, but
there are no phonetic treatises (to my knowledge).  Perhaps it was felt
that the Sanskrit phoneticians had exhausted the subject.

This interpretation is based in part on Sanskrit phoneticians'
descriptions of anusvaara, and in part on general phonological
considerations.  Pali has five distinct nasal consonants at the
beginning of a syllable (the vagga nasals; I second the proposals to
represent these in IPA except I don't think any subscript bridge is
necessary for the dental n).  But it only has one nasal consonant at
the end of a syllable.  This is assimilated to a following vagga
consonant; if it precedes a non-vagga consonant (such as s) or is not
followed by any consonant it will appear as niggahiita (a bit
oversimplified, but its pronunciation is either fixed or freely
variable).  Pali also has another, oral syllable final consonant: the
first part of geminates such as kk, ggh, ss, etc.  There is no distinct
orthographic symbol for this one (and no special name) because unlike
the nasal syllable final consonant it does not occur unassimilated to a
following consonant.

This kind of syllable structure represents a relatively distinct type
found in oherwise unrelated languages.  Its resemblance to modern
Japanese, for example, is uncanny.  Japanese also has a single syllable
final nasal consonant (often romanized as N) and a single oral nasal
consonant (sometimes romanized as Q, but more often simply as a
geminate).  In Japanese kana orthography (a syllabary with symbols
largely derived from Chinese characters, but whose organization is
Indian) there is a unique symbol for each of these even though they are
often (in the case of Q, always) phonetically the same as one or the
other syllable initial consonant.  The pronunciation of N when
unassimilated is arguably like that suggested above for niggahiita.
Japanese differs from Pali is having a more restricted number of
consonants and in leaving the application of assimilation (sandhi)
unexpressed in its orthography.

Given that IPA exists to represent phonetic detail, that we do not have
access to Pali speakers or recordings from early days, and that
grammars provide only vague evidence for the details of pronunciation,
we have to recognize that any attempt to render Pali in IPA is
speculative.  However I submit that the interpretation of niggahiita
given above is not implausible and goes some way to account for the
rather confusing account given of it in the grammars.  There it is
rather grudgingly included among consonants, but given a unique
position at the end of the inventory of sounds.  This is because it is
really a vowel, one without parallel to other vowels and no fixed
pronunciation at that.

George Bedell



*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp

1822
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 8:47 am 
Subject: SV: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?  

<That is, niggahiita is phonetically a nasalized extension of the vowel
which precedes it>

This may explain why Buddhapiya's "etymological" explanation states that
ni-ggahiita is obtained (gayhati) on the basis of (ni-ssaaya) a preceding
short vowel.

<The absence of concern with phonetic detail is noteworthy in the Pali
tradition. Every grammar treats sandhi, but there are no phonetic treatises
(to my knowledge)>

The author of the Vinaya commentary addresses instances of
mispronunciations. The treatment is phonetically interesting in that it
sheds light on 5. c. AD Sinhalese perception of correctly pronounced Pali
text. The grammarians' description of sandhi is interesting as they noticed
the use of glides, but the treatment is at best rudimentary. This feature of
the language is in need of a thorough treatment. Strangely there are no Pali
treatises comparable to the Sanskrit phonetic treatises that address the use
of glides.

<Perhaps it was felt that the Sanskrit phoneticians had exhausted the
subject>

I believe you are right.

Regards,

Ole Pind

1823
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 10:04 am 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

Thank you all for your answers on the niggahiita. There's
just one I would like to comment on....

Ole Pind:
>> Buddhaghosa appears to describe contemporary pronunciation,
>> which according to him involves not articulating any other
>> sound by suppressing or checking the organs of articulation
>> (the karanaani) and producing the nasal through the nose
>> without the mouth being open.

Rett:
> Wouldn't this be the equivalent of the gutteral nasal? So
> that one could use:
>
> "[n with leftward hook at right]" for the niggahita in
> isolation?

Ah yes, I did consider that possibility, but then came across an
article on the anusvaara by Shriramana Sharma, whose theory
strikes me as very plausible and if correct would mean that
the IPA simply doesn't have any character to represent the
anusvaara. http://www.sanskritweb.net/sansdocs/anusvara.pdf

[quote]
The anusvara .m is described in the `Sik.saa `Saastra as being a
voiced sound having only one 'place of articulation' - the
naasikaa or nasal cavity. In other words, it is a 'pure nasal'
and distinct from oral or oro-nasal sounds. Now what does this
mean, in physical terms?

Oral sounds are those in which the air carrying the sound does
not undergo nasalization, or resonance within the nasal cavity,
which is what causes the distinct characteristic in a sound of
being nasal. In oral sounds, the air is 'modified' only within
the oral cavity, and not in the nasal cavity. In oro-nasal
sounds, the air is 'modified' in both the oral and nasal
cavities. So logically, a sound must be a 'pure nasal' only if it
is 'modified' only within the nasal cavity and not at all in the
oral cavity. This is, however, physically impossible, since air
cannot pass into the nasal cavity without passing through, and
getting affected by, at least a part of the oral cavity. So what
does 'pure nasal' mean then?

The answer is that though no sound can be strictly called a pure
nasal by the above definition, the tradition still calls the
anusvaara a 'pure' nasal because it does not involve any
'impurities' which here means articulations that are used in
creating other (nasal) sounds such as [angma] [n with leftward
tail on left] [n with rightward tail on right] [n with subscript
bridge] or [m]. This means that there is no stricture in the oral
cavity.

This *does not mean* that there is an open stricture, since that
would cause only a nasalized vowel. So what *does* this mean? The
answer must come only from tradition, which tells us to simply
*close* the mouth, without forming any particular stricture. This
may seem a ridiculously simple answer, but it is the truth. When
the mouth is simply closed, the air does not *pass through* the
oral cavity, although it does, unavoidably, *come into contact*
with the oral cavity, and then passes through the nasal cavity.

A question: is this not equivalent to the bilabial nasal [m]
then? No. Though many people erroneously pronounce the anusvaara
as identical with [m] or even [n], the proper pronunciation is
quite different, although it is closer to [m] than to [n]. This
is obvious from the diagrams. It may be hard to believe that the
minor difference in the articulation of [m] and [.m] painted
above will really cause a difference in pronunciation, but that
is just like saying that there is no difference in quality
between the long [i:] and short [I] in English  difficult to
know for anyone who has not learnt the pronunciation from a
native speaker.
[endquote]

(from: A Monograph on the Anusvaara of the Taittiriiya K.r.s.na
Yajur Veda. You will need to download the pdf file to see the oral
diagrams)

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1824
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 10:56 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

I thought that Bedell's suggestion was brilliant, and a radical
departure from any of the symbols used previously.  Will anyone use it
in print?

We actually discussed this off-list in another vein, viz., to what
extent the PTS standard for the anuswara (".m") can be suffered or
modified.  My own position on this is simply that "dot below" cannot
indicate both the retroflex ".n" and the anuswara ".m" --I'm willing
to accept almost any other solution, and (as you all probably regret)
I've been using a slight modification of the English-Pali Dictionary's
system ("n"-with-hook-on-right-leg for the anuswara).

E.M.

1825
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 11:08 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Lanna script; observation on ".l" in Pyuu script, etc.
 

Hello,

> Do you find that it suppliments or
> improves Harald Hundius' impressive "Scrift und Phonologie der
> Nord Thai"?

You pre-empted my comment.  I myself have not had the time to look
seriously at Hundius's work --although I have now had the book handed
to me by the man himself.  Obviously, it would take quite some time to
sift through it --although my German is better than my Thai.

> I am not planning a big project like Eisel...

What?  Me?  No --no big projects!  Cancel all my calls!  I've found a
paying job and I'm going to quit all my side-projects and focus return
to chanting Kaccayana to the rising sun every day.  In ten or twenty
years, I'll have a vague understanding of the text.

Incidentally, Justin, I believe that the article on the Yasothon MS in
the "big orange book" that you also contributed an article to (viz.,
the National Library of Laos's _...Heritage..._ text already
mentioned, David Wharton ed.) mentions Kaccayana MS with good examples
of both forms of "false titles", i.e., the _Vyakarana_ being named as
either its first chapter or its final chapter (where there is likely
the whole text).  This is common even in Sri Lanka, perhaps showing
that most catalogues are made based only on the first or last word of
the text.

Yasothon seems to have an interesting fragment of the old Lao royal
library --I suppose I'll have to explore it for myself at some point.
I've just returned from an exhausting trip to Phnom Rung (I refuse to
spell it "Pahnom Rung"!) --long distances by bicycle over the Issan
plateau in the last few days.

Actually, my promise to quit my side-projects is false in several
respects: I'd still be delighted to gather together more material on
interpreting the various dating systems colophons & epigraphy in
S.E.A. --I read an interesting article recently on the Chinese (!)
origins of the dating system associated with Sukhothai (everyone here
seems to assume it's from india, but it isn't, etc.) --but, sadly, I
can find few such articles in this neck of the woods.  I hope that the
new Buddhist studies library in "City #1" (Nakhon Pathom) is all that
it's said to be.

E.M.

1826
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 11:30 am 
Subject: Re: Buddhist studies in Thailand  

Always interesting to read informed opinions based on active research.

It is notable that I have not ever read or heard anything so positive
about the state of Buddhist studies at Mahachula or elsewhere from any
of the specialists I've spoken to --be they monks or lay-scholars.
And, in this instance, I'm sure that the opinions on both sides are
well informed.

Re:
"Some see this as Thai chauvanism and
triumphalism, others see it as a great start to jumpstarting
Pali study (which has become very fashionable among the middle
class in Bangkok)."

I've seen some evidence of this --but the trend seems to resemble the
first flush of interest in Sanskrit among Californians, viz., a matter
of learning the semantics of a short list of extremely abstract words.
  This effectively arms you with cocktail chatter (e.g., the ability to
hold forth on the supposedly inherent meaning of the word "bhavana",
without any reference to context or grammar) but doesn't prepare you
to read a Pali text.  I received a series of e-mails from a "middle
class" (viz., extremely wealthy) Thai who claimed to have studied
"Pali and abhidhamma" for 8 years in such a programme, geared toward
the Bangkok middle class laypeople; I do not believe that she had
learned anything beyond a series of ideological norms pertaining to
precisely the "Thai chauvanism and triumphalism" mentioned, but this
is somewhat analogous to all the PhDs produced in Sri Lanka who seem
to learn nothing but a series of declarations about the greatness of
things Sinhalese.  In any case, it is an interesting trend, and I do
not mean to excoriate it; after 50 years they may have caught up with
the state of Sanskrit studies in California.  I would look forward to
any demographic studies on the phenomenon --I very much appreciated
the demographics that McDaniel put together in an article on the state
of Buddhism in the region.

E.M.

1827
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 12:00 pm 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

Dear George,

> My suggestion on how to represent niggahiita in IPA is as follows.
>
>  a.m = a~a
>  i.m = i~i
>  u.m = u~u
>  e.m = e~e
>  o.m = o~o
>
> where '~' preceding a vowel means that vowel with a tilde above it, the
> standard IPA representation of a nasalized vowel. That is, niggahiita
> is phonetically a nasalized extension of the vowel which precedes it.

Thank you for the very informative post, which I had not
read at the time I replied to Rett. Would the sound
represented by the IPA's superscript tilde cover the
anusvaara as described in the article by Sharma?

> I second the proposals to represent these in IPA except I
> don't think any subscript bridge is necessary for the dental
> n).

Without the bridge [n] can represent either a dental or an
alveolar nasal. Though I haven't yet done so, I may yet
encounter some regional pronunciation where Pali n is
realized as an alveolar sound and the subscript bridge will
then be necessary for disambiguation. If I never meet
with such a thing then of course I shall happily lose the
bridge.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1828
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue May 16, 2006 1:20 pm 
Subject: Re: Lanna script; observation on ".l" in Pyuu script

Dear Justin,

> Thanks for the message. I have not seen this book. I have
> several script books produced in the 1980s and 90s in Laos and
> Thai, but not this one. Do you find that it suppliments or
> improves Harald Hundius' impressive "Scrift und Phonologie der
> Nord Thai"?

I'm afraid I can't say, as I am familiar only with the work
of Thai researchers in this field. Perhaps if I prepare a
summary and e-mail it to you, you'll be able to decide if
it's worth your having.

> If so, I would certainly like to see a copy
> myself. I am not planning a big project like Eisel, but am
> simply curious to see the book and compare it others.
>
> Can I send you funding necessary to copy it for me as well?

As only 50 copies were printed and the paper is getting
badly oxidized I shall be having a photocopy made for our
monastery's library for the purpose of preservation. Of
course it will not be any trouble to order an extra one for
you. The pages are 8 x 11 inches, which means the
photocopying would have to be either one A4 sheet per page
at normal size, or one A3 sheet per page, which would permit
enlargement at 150%. I think the latter will be better as
it's the only way to ensure the legibility of some of the
tables and charts in the book. So the only question is
whether you or your department will want to pay for the
posting of 425 x A3 pages, which will no doubt weigh quite a
bit. You will perhaps be in a better position to decide
after you've read my summary.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1829
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed May 17, 2006 3:31 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

Re:

> >       a.m = a~a
> >       i.m = i~i
> >       u.m = u~u
> >       e.m = e~e
> >       o.m = o~o

So far as the actual glyph is concerned, it may be worth considering
that we could translterate the anuswara into Roman script as ... the
anuswara.  There are about a dozen ways to insert a [Unicode] circle
that either resembles the Sinhala or 'Nagari anuswara --be it above or
to the right of the vowel.

If we're departing from the IPA to invent a new superscript symbol
anyway ... why not stick with the one we've been using for 2000 years?
  The anuswara is, presumably, the only symbol universal to all Pali
scripts... it would be amusing if that included romanized Pali as
well.

E.M.

1830
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

>> Buddhaghosa
>> appears to describe contemporary pronunciation, which according to
him
>> involves not articulating any other sound by suppressing or checking
the
>> organs of articulation (the karanaani) and producing the nasal
through the
>> nose without the mouth being open.

> Wouldn't this be the equivalent of the gutteral nasal?

No, it wouldn't.  The velar nasal ('gutteral' has a 19th century aura
in modern phonetic discussion) is a well defined articulation in which
the oral closure occurs at the velum (soft palate).  It is the final
consonant in the standard English pronunciation of -sing-, -sang- or
-sung-.  Buddhaghosa's dictum covers not only the velar nasal, but any
other nasal stop (-m- or any of the various -n-s) and does not
constitute a coherent phonetic description (how does one close the
mouth without using any of the organs of articulation?).  As already
noted, Buddhaghosa may not be aiming at a phonetic desription at all.

> So that one could use:"[n with leftward hook at right]" for the
niggahita in
> isolation?

You could do this (as IPA) only if you could show that niggahiita was
invariably pronounced as a velar nasal.  Buddhaghosa's testimony is
negative evidence here.  Also, there is the existence of another Pali
sound, the ka-vagga nasal, which is much more plausibly so interpreted.
  The grammarians may be frustratingly vague about phonetic detail, but
they unanimously regard these as two distinct sounds.  As Eisel Mazard
mentions, I objected to his usage of engma for Pali niggahiita (and
also to his use of the IPA palatal nasal symbol "[n with leftward hook
at left]" for the the Pali velar nasal) on precisely these grounds.  I
told him that the PTS standard dotted m and n was better.  He replied
with the same point he brings up in this discussion, that the use of
dots for other than retroflex consonants is phonetically unmotivated
and inconsistent.  Of course he is quite right about that.  But I think
he misses the point, because his alternative is equally unmotivated and
inconsistent.  The PTS standard is not preferable to his because it is
more phonetically motivated, but rather simply because it is the
standard.

> Would the sound represented by the IPA's superscript tilde cover the
anusvaara > as described in the article by Sharma?

Sharma's comments exclude nasalized vowels both on the grounds that
these involve both oral and nasal components (and cannot therefore be
'pure nasals') and because they lack oral 'stricture'.  In the portion
of his paper quoted, he tries to phonetically interpret some Sanskrit
phoneticians' descriptions of anusvaara (we are not given specific
references).  This is a mixture of articulatory phonetic observations,
logical contradiction and wishful thinking.  According to these
phoneticians, anusvaara is characterized by an absence of localized
oral stricture (i. e. not labial, dental, palatal. velar, etc.) but
nevertheless by non-localized oral stricture ('the mouth is simply
closed'). This is of course the same bind seen in Buddhaghosa above;
how can there be closure of the mouth without the mouth being closed in
some particular place?  The diagrams certainly do not show any such
thing.  (And one is tempted to ask what those diagrams are based on:
X-ray tracings or the author's intuition of his own articulation.)
Skeptics are instructed to study with 'native speakers' (who seem to be
pa.n.ditas trained in Taittiriiya Vedic recitation).

In thinking about IPA it is important to see that it is a set of
decisions on how to represent consistently the sounds of human
language, and not a theory which makes predictions which could prove
wrong.  Any idea that IPA works adequately for European languages but
might break down for Asian languages is thus founded on
misunderstanding.  If a sound is discovered for which no IPA symbol
exists, then we can (and must, according the spirit of IPA) immediately
create a new symbol for it.  IPA can be criticized as cumbersome, hard
to learn, etc., but it cannot be criticized as incapable of
representing the sounds of any human language.  IPA is a tool which
makes possible the comparison of the phonological aspect of languages
by removing orthographic differences; as such we (at least we
linguists) should cherish it.

It occurred to me in looking back at my earlier posting, that I had
overlooked an interesting point about the velar nasal (the ka-vagga
nasal, appropriately represented by the engma, or as -"n- by Velthuis).
  This sound, though listed in the inventories of both Sanskrit and Pali
grammarians, and accorded a distinct letter in the alphabets, is not
really a contrastively distinct consonant.  It is effectively limited
to clusters with following velar stops (k, kh, g, gh).  But grammarians
(both Sanskrit and Pali) use it distinctively in their metalinguistic
vocabulary.  As a simple example -ti"n- is Panini's acronym for the
active and middle agreement suffixes, but it is ill-formed as a
Sanskrit word.  Similarly, in Moggallaana, -"na.m- and -"naaka.m-
represent suffixes which show up in the declensions of second person
pronouns (II.236-7).  Again, these are ill-formed Pali words.

Finally, I have missed in our discussion to date any reference to I. Y.
Junghare 'Topics in Pli Historical Phonology', Motilal Banarsidass,
1979.  I suspect some of us may not be familiar with this volume.  It
is a University of Texas dissertation written under the direction of E.
C. Polom (S. M. Katre was also there at that time).  It uses the
framework of generative phonology popular then (under the influence of
Chomsky and Halle's 1968 'Sound Pattern of English').  Thus it will be
rough going especially for non-linguists.  But you venture into Pali
phonetics and/or phonology at some risk if you don't know what Junghare
has to say.  Her interpretation of the pronunciation of niggahiita
(rule 28, page 63) is very similiar to mine; one difference being that
she interprets it and the preceding vowel as coalescing into a short
nasalized vowel rather than a long half-nasalized vowel as I do.
Though I was not familiar with her work when I made my interpretation,
I really should have mentioned her as one of its sources.  In any case,
my interpretation is not as unprecedented as Eisel Mazard says.

George Bedell



*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp

1831
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed May 17, 2006 7:21 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

Hi George and group,

Thanks for your posts (and thanks to all the other contributors). I hope my
questions are clear enough despite my not being well versed in phonetics. I find
this very instructive, so please don't hesitate to point out errors or
misconceptions.

>  But you venture into Pali
>phonetics and/or phonology at some risk if you don't know what Junghare
>has to say.  Her interpretation of the pronunciation of niggahiita
>(rule 28, page 63) is very similiar to mine; one difference being that
>she interprets it and the preceding vowel as coalescing into a short
>nasalized vowel rather than a long half-nasalized vowel as I do.

I've been experimenting with trying to pronounce these alternatives, and wonder
exactly what you mean by 'coalescing'.

Suppose I am to pronounce suddhi.m

Do I start with an instant's pure short i sound which then completely nasalizes
and ends abrubtly (Junghare?) or just pronounce a long partially nasalised /i/
without any pure initial /i/ (your position?)? Or some other combination of
those variables? I.e. is the coalescences total, or is there a quick but
perceptible glide from unnasalized vowel into nasalization?

Also, where is the location of stricture? Is it related to the normal point of
articulation of the vowel? I.e. would /i.m/ be partially or completely nasalized
by a partial or complete oral stricture that is farther forward than that of
/a.m/ or /u.m/?

best regards,

/Rett

1832
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed May 17, 2006 9:57 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

<Her interpretation of the pronunciation of niggahiita (rule 28, page 63) is
very similiar to mine; one difference being that she interprets it and the
preceding vowel as coalescing into a short nasalized vowel rather than a
long half-nasalized vowel as I do.>

I agree with your interpretation in that there are examples of long vowels
nasalized as short vowel + niggahiita. They occur to the best of my
knowledge exclusively in Pali verses that are subject to metrical
constraints, short vowel + niggahiita being metrically equivalent to any
given long vowel.

Ole Pind

1833
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 5:46 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

I keep my comments brief and delimited by my small measure of
competence.  As I've said before, I'm linguistically jejune, and have
mostly approached Pali from a background in philosophy (rather than
phonology).

> No, it wouldn't.  The velar nasal ('gutteral' has a 19th century aura
> in modern phonetic discussion) ...

I am surprised that several current (American) dictionaries do not
even list this meaning for "gutteral", although it is still a current
usage in (e.g.) British publications.  Obversely, "velar" and "dorsal"
seem to be confused by some authors (or, are used in a confusing
manner by them) --so "gutteral" might still be a useful adjectie.

> [The velar nasal] is the final
> consonant in the standard English pronunciation of -sing- ...

The problem is that virtually all Pali textbooks I've seen claim that
this is the correct pronunciation of the anuswara itself (Narada,
etc.); I think I'm still "sitting on the fence" as to how to describe
it in my own work.  Perhaps I'll be a cowardly scholar and just quote
Buddhaghosa without venturing my own opinion.

> (how does one close the
> mouth without using any of the organs of articulation?).

By using your fist.  (That was a joke.)  As with the comments alluded
to from Sk. sources, this may be a "linguistic ideal" that can only
exist in metapysics, not spoken language.  It is certainly possible to
make a nasal sound without altering the position of the mouth from the
way it was left after the prior sound --e.g., nasalizing a vowel with
the mouth open or partly closed, as the prior vowel left it.  Even
this is a bit of a leap from B.G.

> > So that one could use:"[n with leftward hook at right]" for the
> niggahita in
> > isolation?
>
> You could do this (as IPA) only if you could show that niggahiita was
> invariably pronounced as a velar nasal. [...]

As Jim lamented to me off-list, the correct IPA form for the velar
nasal (viz., the "ng" ending the first line of the Pali alphabet) is
currently used to represent the anuswara (e.g., in the English-Pali
dictionary, etc.) --so to follow the IPA convention here would cause
more confusion than it solves.  Indic scholarship has never made much
use of the IPA --and it would probably be better to evolve the
standard yet further away from it, to avoid over-lapping symbols.  So
far, I have not lived up to this ideal myself; I recently worked out a
Romanization system for Lao, using the IPA as far as was possible, but
found many more problems than Pali presents, etc. (FYI to Justin:
David Wharton is currently reviewing my current work on Lao tones,
phonology and syntax --I'll send it on to you at some point in future)

> He replied
> with the same point he brings up in this discussion, that the use of
> dots for other than retroflex consonants is phonetically unmotivated
> and inconsistent.  Of course he is quite right about that.  But I think
> he misses the point, because his alternative is equally unmotivated and
> inconsistent.

Well, "dot above" and "tilde above" are alternatives that were
historically used by Pali and Sanskrit scholars until quite recently
--e.g., in Senart's Kaccayana.  For all I care we can use "hook
above", or "strikethrough n" --the latter might well illustrate that
it is a "nasal nullity".

> The PTS standard is not preferable to his because it is
> more phonetically motivated, but rather simply because it is the
> standard.

But the PTS standard has been especially problematic in precisely this
respect, viz., the issue of breaking off compound words with the velar
/'n/ into a sequence of words ending with anuswara, and even
destroying combinations where /.m/ becomes /m/ due to euphony, etc.  I
would further say that the PTS is influential only with a small circle
of scholars in England who continue to put out un-edited and
un-corrected re-issues (similar to Xerox copies) of 100 year old texts
for the edification of a small circle of subscribers.  Despite the awe
that the PTS inspires with so many in Sri Lanka, their orthographic
conventions have not been (nor are now becoming) universal there.
Whatever standard the new Royal Thai edition uses will likely be more
influential in the next 100 years than the PTS has been in the past
100; I know that for myself the standards followed by Sinhalese and
Indian editions (i.e., Romanized editions from these places) have been
more influential than the PTS standard.  I have not seen the new Thai
Romanized edition --I assume that it is largely similar to the PTS
standard, but perhaps with some small modifications?

> Finally, I have missed in our discussion to date any reference to I. Y.
> Junghare 'Topics in Pli Historical Phonology'...

Before you joined the list there were a few references to it.  I read
it some years ago, and did not find much of use there --on most of the
issues I was interested in Junghare just surveys the earlier
authorities.

> In any case,
> my interpretation is not as unprecedented as Eisel Mazard says.

It was the suggested innovation in orthography that I praised as
unprecedented, i.e., putting a tilde above the vowel, etc. --although
I say again, that we'd might as well adopt the "dot" directly into
roman script, and thus borrow the anuswara entire, with all its
phonetic ambiguities.

E.M.

1834
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 7:28 am 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

On 17 May 2006, at 2:31 pm, Eisel Mazard wrote:

> If we're departing from the IPA to invent a new superscript
> symbol anyway ... why not stick with the one we've been
> using for 2000 years? The anuswara is, presumably, the only
> symbol universal to all Pali scripts... it would be amusing
> if that included romanized Pali as well.

Perhaps not so amusing for scholars publishing in the
Scandinavian languages, or in Czech, whose orthographies
already use an over-ring. How will a Norwegian, for example,
distinguish between the pronoun ta.m and a toe (t), or
between shoulders (a.msa) and Norse gods (sa) ?

The over-ring has also been used for over half a century as
a devoicing symbol (though the subscript ring is commoner),
while a right superscript over-ring was used by Ladefoged to
indicate the non-release of a stop (= IPA [corner symbol]).

If you're really dissatisfied with the m-underdot, why not
use the conk hieroglyph: a tall, narrow-based isosceles
triangle with two small rings at the bottom symbolizing
nostrils ?  Then, for typographical ease one might
substitute an inverted v with with subscript umlaut.
:)

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1835
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 7:27 am 
Subject: Monophthongs in IPA

Hello all,

The pronunciation of the three pairs of monophthongs is
described by Warder thus:

a  like u in 'hut'
aa like a in 'barn'
i  like i in 'bit'
ii like ee in 'beet'
u  like u in 'put' or oo in 'foot'
uu like u in 'brute'

In IPA these would then be:

a-va.n.na:     [inverted v], [script a:]
i-va.n.na:     [I], [i:]
u-va.n.na:     [upsilon], [u:]

I am curious to know what is the basis for the judgment that
the two items in each pair are phonetically distinct (as
opposed to being two identical sounds that differ only in
duration) ? I don't see any evidence for their phonetic
distinctness in the Pali grammars that I have looked at; so
is this a conclusion that has been arrived at by comparison
with Sanskrit, or on the basis of modern pronunciation, or
something else ?

Is there any possibility that in Buddhaghosa's day the
monophthongal system may have been like that of Icelandic,
in which every vowel has both a long and a short form,
according to which and how many consonants follow it ? I am
thinking of something like this:

a-va.n.na:     [inverted v], [inverted v:]
i-va.n.na:     [I], [I:]
u-va.n.na:     [upsilon], [upsilon:]

or:

a-va.n.na:     [script a], [script a:]
i-va.n.na:     [i], [i:]
u-va.n.na:     [u], [u:]

Or perhaps some blend of the two. If this is implausible,
then what exactly is the negative evidence that counts
against it ?

One other question: from the account in the grammars it
would appear there are several possible contenders for the
vowel 'a' besides [inverted v]. I'm thinking in particular
of [turned a], [script a], or even [schwa]. What is the
basis for the preference for [inverted v] ?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1836
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 8:04 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

(Dhammanando)

> Without the bridge [n] can represent either a dental or an
> alveolar nasal. Though I haven't yet done so, I may yet
> encounter some regional pronunciation where Pali n is
> realized as an alveolar sound and the subscript bridge will
> then be necessary for disambiguation.

This is correct.  I thought that your remark:

> I am not concerned here with how the niggahiita is generally
> realised in Buddhist countries today,

would apply here.


(Rett)

> I've been experimenting with trying to pronounce these
> alternatives, and wonder exactly what you mean by 'coalescing'.

Just that the two sounds (the vowel and the following niggahiita)
become one sound.

> Suppose I am to pronounce suddhi.m.  Do I start with an
> instant's pure short i sound which then completely nasalizes
> and ends abrubtly (Junghare?) or just pronounce a long
> partially nasalised /i/ without any pure initial /i/
> (your position?)? Or some other combination of those
> variables? I.e. is the coalescence total, or is there a
> quick but perceptible glide from unnasalized vowel into
> nasalization?

Junghare says that the word is pronounced

      [suddh~i]

with a final short nasalized vowel.  I say it is pronounced

      [suddhi~i]

with a final long vowel the second half of which is nasalized. There is
at least one other possibility, that it is pronounced

      [suddh~i~i]

with a final long nasalized vowel.  (In these phonetic representations,
everything is proper IPA except 'dh'.  Imagine that the appropriate IPA
symbol appears in its place.)  As Ole Pind points out, there is reason
to think that the final syllable of this word has a long vowel rather
than a short one.  But whether the second two representations are
audibly distinct is not clear.  I would not expect to find a language
in which this difference distinguishes one word from another.

> Also, where is the location of stricture? Is it related to the
> normal point of articulation of the vowel? I.e. would /i.m/ be
> partially or completely nasalized by a partial or complete oral
> stricture that is farther forward than that of /a.m/ or /u.m/?

The articulatory position of [~i] is the same as for [i] (and this goes
for any vowel): the tongue blade raised from its neutral position.
Nasalization is produced by lowering the velum allowing air to escape
into the nasal passage.  This effect does not interact with the
determination of vowel quality.

(Eisel)

Re:

> >       a.m = a~a
> >       i.m = i~i
> >       u.m = u~u
> >       e.m = e~e
> >       o.m = o~o

> So far as the actual glyph is concerned, it may be worth considering
> that we could translterate the anuswara into Roman script as ... the
> anuswara.  There are about a dozen ways to insert a [Unicode] circle
> that either resembles the Sinhala or 'Nagari anuswara --be it above
or
> to the right of the vowel.

> If we're departing from the IPA to invent a new superscript symbol
> anyway ... why not stick with the one we've been using for 2000
years?
> The anuswara is, presumably, the only symbol universal to all Pali
> scripts... it would be amusing if that included romanized Pali as
> well.

Ah, but we are precisely not departing from IPA.  Your proposal would,
since the IPA symbol for vowel nasalization is the tilde, not the small
circle.


It occurs to me that one way to make sense of the Sanskrit
phoneticians' statement (and also Buddhaghosa's) that anusvaara (or
niggahiita) is without point of articulation though the mouth is
closed, etc. is that this is their way to deal with a sound which
changes its phonetic properties depending on its surroundings.  They
mean something like: this sound has no fixed point of articulation, but
all of its variants have a (different) point of articulation.  There is
a long way to go to construe what they say as support for Junghare's or
my interpretation.  But this goes part way, and seems to me preferable
to taking their statements as internally contradictory.  I was a little
hard on Sharma yesterday.  It may only be fair to point out that the
second half of his paper consists of examples how anusvaara is actually
pronounced in his tradition of recitation.  That is not Pali but Vedic.


My thanks to all who have contributed to this on-going discussion.  If
I may play the professor a bit again, I would strongly recommend the
late Peter Ladefoged's 'A Course in Phonetics' (third edition),
Harcourt Brace, 1993.  Ladefoged was instrumental in the recent
development of IPA.  His book is both easy to read and authoritative if
anyone wants to learn more about phonetics.

George Bedell

Post scriptum: I have received another round today (5/18), but am too
tired to reply or adapt the above.  Maybe tomorrow.


*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp

1837
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 12:30 pm 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

[To the group: I've been busier than usual in the past few days (so much
happening all at once) and have gotten behind in my responses to recent
posts to the group. I will catch up later with replies to Ven. Yuttadhammo,
Justin, and others]

Dear Ven. Dhammanando,

<< For the vagga nasals I have the following:

`n [angma / n with leftward hook at right]
~n [n with leftward hook at left]
.n [n with rightward hook at right]
n [n with subscript bridge]
m [m] >>

Your proposal of the retroflex nasal symbol for .n would probably be widely
accepted but I wonder if the traditional description of the pronunciation of
the muddhaja consonants can be equated with retroflexes. The articulatory
instrument (kara.na.m) for the .ta-vaggas is given as 'jivhopagga' which
Warder interprets as "the sub-tip of the tongue" (Warder, p.3, fn 4) which
suggests the under suface of the tongue near the tip. But I have come across
a different interpretation in the Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa (p. 14 Thai ed.)
which states the upper surface (upari tala.m) near the tip of the tongue:

"mukhabbhantaramuddhimuddhi.t.thaana.m. tassaa jivhaaya aggassa samiipa.m
upari tala.m kara.na.m. ta.m jivhopagga.m ti vutta.m."

From this, I think .n would be better represented in IPA as the
alveolar/post-alveolar [n].

Best wishes,
Jim

1838
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 2:44 pm 
Subject: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?  

Dear Jim,

Warder's interpretation reflects the Sanskrit phoneticians' description of
the articulation of the socalled retroflex series(vagga). In Sanskrit
jivhopagga (Sanskrit jihvopagra) denotes the part of the tongue next to
(upa) the tip i.e. the underside of the tip of the tongue rolled back in the
muddhan (Sanskrit muurdhan). The term contrasts with jivhagga i.e. the tip
as such that is instrumental in producing the dental series. The Kacc-vann
passage seems very strange and non-standard to me. I shall try to locate it
when have time for it.

Best wishes,

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 18. maj 2006 18:30
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Niggahiita in IPA?

[To the group: I've been busier than usual in the past few days (so much
happening all at once) and have gotten behind in my responses to recent
posts to the group. I will catch up later with replies to Ven. Yuttadhammo,
Justin, and others]

Dear Ven. Dhammanando,

<< For the vagga nasals I have the following:

`n [angma / n with leftward hook at right] ~n [n with leftward hook at left]
.n [n with rightward hook at right] n [n with subscript bridge] m [m] >>

Your proposal of the retroflex nasal symbol for .n would probably be widely
accepted but I wonder if the traditional description of the pronunciation of
the muddhaja consonants can be equated with retroflexes. The articulatory
instrument (kara.na.m) for the .ta-vaggas is given as 'jivhopagga' which
Warder interprets as "the sub-tip of the tongue" (Warder, p.3, fn 4) which
suggests the under suface of the tongue near the tip. But I have come across
a different interpretation in the Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa (p. 14 Thai ed.)
which states the upper surface (upari tala.m) near the tip of the tongue:

"mukhabbhantaramuddhimuddhi.t.thaana.m. tassaa jivhaaya aggassa samiipa.m
upari tala.m kara.na.m. ta.m jivhopagga.m ti vutta.m."

From this, I think .n would be better represented in IPA as the
alveolar/post-alveolar [n].

Best wishes,
Jim

1839
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 3:43 pm 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

Dear Ole,

<< Warder's interpretation reflects the Sanskrit phoneticians' description
of
the articulation of the socalled retroflex series(vagga). In Sanskrit
jivhopagga (Sanskrit jihvopagra) denotes the part of the tongue next to
(upa) the tip i.e. the underside of the tip of the tongue rolled back in the
muddhan (Sanskrit muurdhan). The term contrasts with jivhagga i.e. the tip
as such that is instrumental in producing the dental series. The Kacc-vann
passage seems very strange and non-standard to me. I shall try to locate it
when have time for it. >>

The passage is located in the discussion on .thaana, kara.na, and payatana
towards the end of the section on Kc 2. I rechecked my transliteration for
errors and it seems fine to me. But strangely, this whole part is missing
from Tiwari's Devanagari script edition. I will check the
Kaccaayanatthadiipanii which expands on much of what is written in
Kacc-va.n.n. Its commentary on the niggahiita (Kc 8) is two big pages long!

Jim

1840
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 4:38 pm 
Subject: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?  

<<The passage is located in the discussion on .thaana, kara.na, and payatana
towards the end of the section on Kc 2. I rechecked my transliteration for
errors and it seems fine to me. But strangely, this whole part is missing
from Tiwari's Devanagari script edition. I will check the
Kaccaayanatthadiipanii which expands on much of what is written in
Kacc-va.n.n. Its commentary on the niggahiita (Kc 8) is two big pages
long!>>

Dear Jim,

I have traced the passage in Kacc-va.n.n. It seems to me phonetically
confused. Ruupasiddhi-.tiikaa ad Kacc loc. cit. Explains correctly: aggassa
upa samiipa.m upagga.m. jivhaaya upagga.m jivhopagga.m. Kacc-va.n.
uparitala.m is incomprehensible.

Ole

1841
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 6:43 pm 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

Dear Ole,

Thanks for the quote from Ruupasiddhi-.tiikaa but it doesn't explain which
side of the tongue.

> Kacc-va.n. uparitala.m is incomprehensible.

There is an entry for "uparitalam" (the upper part) in Apte's Sanskrit
dictionary. I repeat the passage from Kacc-va.n.n with one minor correction
(jivhopagganti instead of jivhopagga.m ti):

"mukhabbhantaramuddhimuddhi.t.thaana.m. tassaa jivhaaya aggassa samiipa.m
upari tala.m kara.na.m. ta.m jivhopagganti vutta.m."

Couldn't "tassaa jivhaaya aggassa samiipa.m upari tala.m kara.na.m." be
interpreted as "the upper surface (or upper part) near the tip of the tongue
is the instrument (of articulation called the 'jivhopagga')." ? "near the
tip" might refer to the part of the tongue in the resting position opposite
the alveolar ridge or slope.

I checked the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii for "upari tala.m" but couldn't find
any in a similar passage on p.40.

Best wishes,
Jim

> <<The passage is located in the discussion on .thaana, kara.na, and
payatana
> towards the end of the section on Kc 2. I rechecked my transliteration for
> errors and it seems fine to me. But strangely, this whole part is missing
> from Tiwari's Devanagari script edition. I will check the
> Kaccaayanatthadiipanii which expands on much of what is written in
> Kacc-va.n.n. Its commentary on the niggahiita (Kc 8) is two big pages
> long!>>
>
> Dear Jim,
>
> I have traced the passage in Kacc-va.n.n. It seems to me phonetically
> confused. Ruupasiddhi-.tiikaa ad Kacc loc. cit. Explains correctly:
aggassa
> upa samiipa.m upagga.m. jivhaaya upagga.m jivhopagga.m. Kacc-va.n.
> uparitala.m is incomprehensible.
>
> Ole

1842
From: Nyanatusita <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed May 17, 2006 9:46 am 
Subject: Gemination of the numeral ti

Dear Ole,

Thanks.
> <However, the doubling doesn't always take place, e.g., atirekatirattam,
> dirattatiratta, ekuunati.msa. Why is this so?>
>
> My own explanation would be that the compilers of the Paatimokkha tried to
> avoid excessive gemination which invariably would entail prosodical length
> and thus would have rythmical implications>
>
Only one of the three compounds (dirattatiratta) mentioned is found in
the Patimokkha. There are many other occurrences of compounds starting
with atirekati-, ekuunati-, etc, all over the Canon, commentaries, etc.
Maybe I misunderstand ''prosodical length'', but the Patimokkha is not
prosody.
The non-gemination apparently only takes place when ti is found in
compounds with more than 2 members. Maybe there is a rule about not
letting this gemination take place in compounds consisting of more than
two members. The gemination would make the compounds more difficult to
pronounce.
This being written, I noticed that in the compound dvattikkhattu.m
gemination occurs twiceboth in ti and in khattu.m.

There is also the reading dvi- instead of dva- Not only here but also in
other compounds like dvattipatta. I wonder which one is more authentic.
Why are there various compound forms of the numeral 2, i.e., dvi, di and
dv? The di- form appears to be the most prakritic.

> The reading baat.msa(.m) appears to be exclusively Burmese. The references I
> have checked read as one would expect batti.msa.
>
Batti.msa is also found on CSCD, but mostly in the Sinhalese texts.

Kind regards,
                           Bh. Nyanatusita

1843
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 9:43 pm 
Subject: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Friends,

I've entered into study of Pali the Thai way, surrounded by midget
samenaras yelling at the top of their lungs and running circles around
me in their ability to memorize Pali texts. I have a question regarding
the grammar we are studying. It says that under the paradigm for "ratti
(f.)", 5th and 7th vibhatti, ekavacana can become "ratyaa" and "ratya.m"
respectively. Since ratti is the word used as an example, it appears
that they would then have us conjugate "nandi" as "nanyaa, nanya.m" and
"vati" as "vayaa, vaya.m" !? Reading through Duroiselle's grammar, it
gives the same impression:

     (d) Before ā, of the same cases, final i of the stem may become y by
     rule 27(i)-a; and as in Pāli there can be no group of three
     consonants* one t is dropped. Hence we get: ratti + ā = rattyā = ratyā.
     *Except ntr, as in antra, etc.


Our teacher, Mahavituun explained it clearer, saying that in his
understanding, the rule should be "where three consonants are grouped,
*and two of them are the same*, remove one of the two that are the
same." This makes it clear, but then how to conjugate "nandi"? Should it
be "nandyaa" or should it be assumed that this form simply cannot exist
(according to Maha Vituun)? I am wondering whether there is any
clarification regarding this in the ancient grammars.

Thanks,

Yuttadhammo

1844
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Thu May 18, 2006 11:59 pm 
Subject: Thai-Pali Tipitaka Program  

Dear Friends,

I have put together a simple program containing a set of texts supposing
to be the standard Thai version of the Tipitaka, here converted into
Roman script, taken from the same files that can be found on several
Thai Buddhist Internet websites (thus assumed to be in the public
domain)  As the conversion process of over 20,000 files was somewhat
complicated (especially given that every o and every e had to be moved
from before the consonant or consonant cluster to after), I am not sure
the files are 100% correct.  Of course, I am not sure the original files
were correctly proofread, containing as they do on the first page the
word bhikkhumsa"nghena (sic).

Anyway, maybe it is useful to have... no atthakatha yet, but the simple
interface allows one to browse by page or book of the canon (no search
function either).  The program is split into two parts for ease of
updating, and can be downloaded from these two links:

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/ThaiPali.zip
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/ThaiPaliPages.zip

Once you have downloaded, unzip the two files in the same place, and
they should create the directory "ThaiPali".  Open the directory and run
index.htm.  Works on Firefox and IE 7 Beta 2, and should be
cross-platform (ie work on Windows, Mac, Linux, etc)

Please let me know if you find any bugs, either in the script or in the
files themselves.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1845
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 2:11 am 
Subject: Pali MS collection at Korat (N.E. Thailand)  

The Korat branch of the national library seems to have 1,000 or more
(Palm-leaf) MS bundles --wrapped and labelled with antiseptic
uniformity.  Assuming bugs can't chew through the outer wrapper
they've used, this is a truly well-preserved collection --albeit one
that will receive little outside attention in its current location.

All of the Pali texts that could be seen on casual inspection were in
Khom script (not surprising for the region, etc.) although some
percentage of the collection is presumably comprised of Thai
vernacular folklore.

I am not in a hurry to dig into this collection, but will sooner or
later want to make inquiries about Kaccayana MS in this branch of the
library; I would tend to assume that there isn't a published catalogue
and that one "goes by" the grouping and hand-written labels (the
latter are in Thai, but seem exceptionally good, I should mention).

I look forward to practicing reading Pali in Khom script again --I
have almost forgotten it over the past two years.

E.M.

1846
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 3:02 am 
Subject: SV: Niggahiita in IPA?  

Dear Jim,

<it doesn't explain which side of the tongue>

I think that it is possible to extrapolate from what the Sanskrit
phoneticians say. Upaagra (Paali upagga) denotes apparently the edge or rim
of the tip curled back, which explains why at least one treatise talks about
the articulation of the retroflex series as produced by the upaagra or the
uderside of the tip of the tongue.

> Kacc-va.n. uparitala.m is incomprehensible.

There is an entry for "uparitalam" (the upper part) in Apte's Sanskrit
dictionary. I repeat the passage from Kacc-va.n.n with one minor correction
(jivhopagganti instead of jivhopagga.m ti):

"mukhabbhantaramuddhimuddhi.t.thaana.m. tassaa jivhaaya aggassa samiipa.m
upari tala.m kara.na.m. ta.m jivhopagganti vutta.m."


<Couldn't "tassaa jivhaaya aggassa samiipa.m upari tala.m kara.na.m." be
interpreted as "the upper surface (or upper part) near the tip of the tongue
is the instrument (of articulation called the 'jivhopagga')." ? "near the
tip" might refer to the part of the tongue in the resting position opposite
the alveolar ridge or slope.>

Yes, I agree, but this is exactly what I find problematic. I have not found
anything similar in related descriptions


Best wishes,
Ole

1847
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 3:08 am 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m

Dear Bhante Yuttadhammo,

I like the glimpse into Thai pali studies that you give by way of an
introduction. Nice image :-)

I can't give an authoritative answer to this complex question, but I'd like to
toss out some general perspectives. I'm very happy to be corrected if there are
mistakes or gaps.

This sort of difficulty looks to me like a typical result of the mixture of
descriptive and prescriptive techniques in traditional Pali grammar. Odd forms
like ratyaa occur at a number of places in the canon, probably for metrical
reasons (Geiger 86.2 gives som examples, including where the /y/ assimilates).
Traditional grammarians were stuck in a bind, because they wanted to both fully
account for the diversity of Buddhavacana AND give a coherent and concise set of
rules to guide the composition of new commentarial texts. From what I have seen
so far, they didn't succeed in fully sorting out the implications of these
contradictory aims, and therefore Pali vyakarana must be viewed as
work-in-progress: the prehistory of a Pali Paa.nini who has yet to arrive.

So about nandi (f) ( nandin), to be safe you could just use the normal form
with -iyaa etc if you are composing a text. If you you find other forms in the
corpus then you might want to use them, but I wouldn't personally coin new
'archaic' irregular forms on the basis of rules classical vyakarana that were
devised and tacked on to try to account for odd forms.

Another way of saying this is that rules describing archaic forms should be
considered non-productive. English also has many frozen expressions containing
archaisms that are no longer productive, i.e. can not be used as a model for new
sentences.

best regards,

/Rett

>
>
>I've entered into study of Pali the Thai way, surrounded by midget
>samenaras yelling at the top of their lungs and running circles around
>me in their ability to memorize Pali texts. I have a question regarding
>the grammar we are studying. It says that under the paradigm for "ratti
>(f.)", 5th and 7th vibhatti, ekavacana can become "ratyaa" and "ratya.m"
>respectively. Since ratti is the word used as an example, it appears
>that they would then have us conjugate "nandi" as "nanyaa, nanya.m" and
>"vati" as "vayaa, vaya.m" !? Reading through Duroiselle's grammar, it
>gives the same impression:
>
>    (d) Before , of the same cases, final i of the stem may become y by
>    rule 27(i)-a; and as in Pli there can be no group of three
>    consonants* one t is dropped. Hence we get: ratti +  = ratty = raty.
>    *Except ntr, as in antra, etc.
>
>
>Our teacher, Mahavituun explained it clearer, saying that in his
>understanding, the rule should be "where three consonants are grouped,
>*and two of them are the same*, remove one of the two that are the
>same." This makes it clear, but then how to conjugate "nandi"? Should it
>be "nandyaa" or should it be assumed that this form simply cannot exist
>(according to Maha Vituun)? I am wondering whether there is any
>clarification regarding this in the ancient grammars.
>

1848
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 4:48 am 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Rett,


> I like the glimpse into Thai pali studies that you give by way of an
introduction. Nice image :-)
>
>
The image isn't half as nice as the audio:
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/noviceshout.mp3 :)


> So about nandi (f) ( nandin), to be safe you could just use the normal form
with -iyaa etc if you are composing a text. If you you find other forms in the
corpus then you might want to use them, but I wouldn't personally coin new
'archaic' irregular forms on the basis of rules classical vyakarana that were
devised and tacked on to try to account for odd forms.
>
Thank you, I thought the same as I was writing my post, but this still
doesn't help the Pali student who is asked, come exam time, to give the
full conjugation of 'uumi'. It was funny in class hearing the novices
come up with "uuyaa", but it wouldn't be funny to put it on an exam.
> Another way of saying this is that rules describing archaic forms should be
considered non-productive. English also has many frozen expressions containing
archaisms that are no longer productive, i.e. can not be used as a model for new
sentences.
>
The problem is that the book we are using was written by his holiness,
Somdet Phra Maha Samana Jao Krom Phra Yavajiranyan Vororot, and it
clearly says, "i karanta in itthilinga is formed like ratti (night), as
follows:", and then proceeds to give the form of ratti as noted, as
being just that, "a model for new sentences". I don't dare to venture to
ask that they correct the book ;)

Anyhow, back to cramming the little book into my big head.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1849
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 5:39 am 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m

Hi again,

>
>The problem is that the book we are using was written by his holiness,
>Somdet Phra Maha Samana Jao Krom Phra Yavajiranyan Vororot, and it
>clearly says, "i karanta in itthilinga is formed like ratti (night), as
>follows:", and then proceeds to give the form of ratti as noted, as
>being just that, "a model for new sentences". I don't dare to venture to
>ask that they correct the book ;)

You could always try modestly trumping the textbook with examples from the
Buddhavacana or classic a.t.thakathaa such as those by the ven. Buddhaghosa. In
those texts the regular forms with -iyaa etc abound. I doubt anyone would dare
question you if you cited Dhp-A  /vatiyaa/ for instance. Or how about the
formulaic saavatthiya.m or rattiyaa (as in the opening of Mahaamangalasuttam)?
Perhaps his holiness is giving the ratyaa model as an optional form only? Then
one ought to be able to avoid it if the phonetics of the word in question make
it impractical.

Just a thought. I don't want to get you in trouble or anything. I hope someone
with more intimate knowledge of the exams you're facing can give more precise
tips.

Very nice sound file, btw. It sounds like the refectory of one of Shaolin's
lower chambers in a kung-fu movie.

best regards,

/Rett

1850
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 8:10 am 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

rett wrote:
> Hi again,
>
>
>> The problem is that the book we are using was written by his holiness,
>> Somdet Phra Maha Samana Jao Krom Phra Yavajiranyan Vororot, and it
>> clearly says, "i karanta in itthilinga is formed like ratti (night), as
>> follows:", and then proceeds to give the form of ratti as noted, as
>> being just that, "a model for new sentences". I don't dare to venture to
>> ask that they correct the book ;)
>>
>
> You could always try modestly trumping the textbook with examples from the
Buddhavacana or classic a.t.thakathaa such as those by the ven. Buddhaghosa. In
those texts the regular forms with -iyaa etc abound. I doubt anyone would dare
question you if you cited Dhp-A  /vatiyaa/ for instance. Or how about the
formulaic saavatthiya.m or rattiyaa (as in the opening of Mahaamangalasuttam)?
Perhaps his holiness is giving the ratyaa model as an optional form only? Then
one ought to be able to avoid it if the phonetics of the word in question make
it impractical.
>
> Just a thought. I don't want to get you in trouble or anything. I hope someone
with more intimate knowledge of the exams you're facing can give more precise
tips.
>
Dear Rett,

I agree with you, thank you for the insight.  I only wondered if there
were any grammatical rule in the ancient grammars that would better
supplant Duroiselles terribly inexact remark which I quoted in my
original post.

> Very nice sound file, btw. It sounds like the refectory of one of Shaolin's
lower chambers in a kung-fu movie.
>
>
don't go planting ideas... :)

I think if the novices around here got any more kung-fu, they might tear
the school down - this is supposed to be a meditation centre, after all :)


Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1851
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 8:24 am 
Subject: Re: Monophthongs in IPA

> The pronunciation of the three pairs of monophthongs is
> described by Warder thus:
>
> a  like u in 'hut'
> aa like a in 'barn'
> i  like i in 'bit'
> ii like ee in 'beet'
> u  like u in 'put' or oo in 'foot'
> uu like u in 'brute'
>
> In IPA these would then be:
>
> a-va.n.na:     [inverted v], [script a:]
> i-va.n.na:     [I], [i:]
> u-va.n.na:     [upsilon], [u:]
>
> I am curious to know what is the basis for the judgment that
> the two items in each pair are phonetically distinct (as
> opposed to being two identical sounds that differ only in
> duration) ? I don't see any evidence for their phonetic
> distinctness in the Pali grammars that I have looked at; so
> is this a conclusion that has been arrived at by comparison
> with Sanskrit, or on the basis of modern pronunciation, or
> something else ?

I am less knowledgeable in the history of European Pali studies than
some other members of this group.  I would assume, however, that Warder
is trying to give English speakers an idea of how to pronounce Pali.
In English vowel length is always accompanied by differences in
quality.  Therefore what you are talking about is an artifact of
English phonology.

> Is there any possibility that in Buddhaghosa's day the
> monophthongal system may have been like that of Icelandic,
> in which every vowel has both a long and a short form,
> according to which and how many consonants follow it ?

Perfectly possible; in fact even if we know nothing else, it should be
the assumption since the English system is rather unusual.

> I am thinking of something like this:
>
> a-va.n.na:     [inverted v], [inverted v:]
> i-va.n.na:     [I], [I:]
> u-va.n.na:     [upsilon], [upsilon:]
>
> or:
>
> a-va.n.na:     [script a], [script a:]
> i-va.n.na:     [i], [i:]
> u-va.n.na:     [u], [u:]
>
> Or perhaps some blend of the two. If this is implausible,
> then what exactly is the negative evidence that counts
> against it ?

I think the second proposal is more plausible because if there are no
quality differences of the English sort, then the more extreme
qualities ([a, i, u]) are less marked.

> One other question: from the account in the grammars it
> would appear there are several possible contenders for the
> vowel 'a' besides [inverted v]. I'm thinking in particular
> of [turned a], [script a], or even [schwa]. What is the
> basis for the preference for [inverted v] ?

A good question.  Once again, in English the short (or lax) 'a' is
noticeably higher and more central than the long 'a'.  The inverted 'v'
is the IPA symbol for this sound.  Turned 'a' and schwa represent
slightly different sounds, but particularly schwa is often used to
represent the English short 'a'.

George Bedell

*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp

1852
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 9:18 am 
Subject: VRI Kacc. numbering errata

Dear list members

I have recently been proof-reading the VRI version of
Kaccaayana and have corrected a number of errors in its
numbering system. The following may be of interest to anyone
using this version of Kacc. and wishing to follow up the
Padaruupasiddhi references.

Wrongly numbered suttas.

     VRI           change to:
151 - 143  -->  158 - 143
207 - 161  -->  208 - 166
244 - 361  -->  344 - 361

Wrongly numbered Ruupasiddhi refs.

     VRI            change to:
21  - 22   -->  21  - 21
71  - 489  -->  71  - 505
106 - 302  -->  106 - 313
109 - 295  -->  109 - 304
112 - 173  -->  112 - 183
119 - 115  -->  119 - 155
188 - 155  -->  188 - 115
200 - 196  -->  200 - 159
222 - 327  -->  222 - 342
276 - 302  -->  276 - 84 & 302
278 - 320  -->  278 - 93 & 320
279 - 292  -->  279 - 82 & 292
280 - 285  -->  280 - 75 & 285
281 - 294  -->  281 - 77 & 294
283 - 316  -->  283 - 91 & 316
284 - 283  -->  284 - 65 & 283
408 - 430  -->  408 - 431
413 - 426  -->  413 - 427
431 - 428  -->  431 - 458
456 - 420  -->  456 - 430
499 - 480  -->  499 - 507
550 - 549  -->  550 - 546
588 - ( )  -->  588 - 620
638 - 668  -->  638 - 660
653 - 307  -->  653 - 306

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1853
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 9:49 am 
Subject: Re: Monophthongs in IPA

Dear George,

Thanks for your reply.

>> I am thinking of something like this:
>>
>> a-va.n.na:     [inverted v], [inverted v:]
>> i-va.n.na:     [I], [I:]
>> u-va.n.na:     [upsilon], [upsilon:]
>>
>> or:
>>
>> a-va.n.na:     [script a], [script a:]
>> i-va.n.na:     [i], [i:]
>> u-va.n.na:     [u], [u:]
>>
>> Or perhaps some blend of the two. If this is implausible,
>> then what exactly is the negative evidence that counts
>> against it ?
>
> I think the second proposal is more plausible because if there are no
> quality differences of the English sort, then the more extreme
> qualities ([a, i, u]) are less marked.

Forgive my obtuseness, but I don't understand what you are
saying here. Less marked than what ? And how does this make
the second scheme the more plausible ?

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1854
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 10:26 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Monophthongs in IPA

Dhammanando,

Sorry for the obscurity.  The point is: many languages have vowel
systems with [a, i, u] but not [inverted v, I, upsilon].  Few (if any)
have vowel systems with the vowels [inverted v, I, upsilon], but not
[a, i, u].  Thus the 'short' vowels are marked with respect to the
'long' vowels.  Meaning that if you have marked vowels, you expect to
have the corresponding unmarked vowels also.

George


--- Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> wrote:

> Dear George,
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> >> I am thinking of something like this:
> >>
> >> a-va.n.na:     [inverted v], [inverted v:]
> >> i-va.n.na:     [I], [I:]
> >> u-va.n.na:     [upsilon], [upsilon:]
> >>
> >> or:
> >>
> >> a-va.n.na:     [script a], [script a:]
> >> i-va.n.na:     [i], [i:]
> >> u-va.n.na:     [u], [u:]
> >>
> >> Or perhaps some blend of the two. If this is implausible,
> >> then what exactly is the negative evidence that counts
> >> against it ?
> >
> > I think the second proposal is more plausible because if there are
> no
> > quality differences of the English sort, then the more extreme
> > qualities ([a, i, u]) are less marked.
>
> Forgive my obtuseness, but I don't understand what you are
> saying here. Less marked than what ? And how does this make
> the second scheme the more plausible ?
>
> Best wishes,
> Dhammanando
>

*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp

1855
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 19, 2006 2:22 pm 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,

I found two sandhi rules in the Saddaniiti that can account for rattiyaa >
ratyaa, etc. but haven't yet found their counterparts in Kaccaayana or
Ruupasiddhi.

The furst rule explains the elision of the -i- :

Sd 69. saralopo ya-ma-na-raadisu vaa. Optionally, (there is) vowel elision
before y, m, n, r, etc.

The vutti explanation is: "yakaara-makaara-nakaara-rakaaraadisu paresu
anantare .thitaana.m va.n.naana.m saralopo hoti vaa .thaane." I don't
understand .thitaanaa.m and .thaane in this context but the examples given
for saralopo are: aaraamarukkhacetyaani, khatyaa, padmaani, nisneha.m,
naanaaratne, kriyaacittaani, klesavatthuvasaa. The word ".thaane" seems to
disallow vowel elision (saralopo) in the example: Suppiyo.

The next rule explains the elision of one of the two consonants in -tt- :

Sd 120. tiisu vya~njanesv eko saruupo lopa.m. Among three consonants, one
(of them) having the same form is elided.

This corresponds to your teacher's explanation below. The examples given
are: khatye, agyaagaara.m. It doesn't apply in such cases as: titthyaa.

I'm only bringing these rules to your attention without my having spent much
time with them. Thanks for your earlier message regarding Wat Mahathat. I
will reply as soon as I can get a chance. :)

Best wishes,
Jim

> Our teacher, Mahavituun explained it clearer, saying that in his
> understanding, the rule should be "where three consonants are grouped,
> *and two of them are the same*, remove one of the two that are the
> same." This makes it clear, but then how to conjugate "nandi"? Should it
> be "nandyaa" or should it be assumed that this form simply cannot exist
> (according to Maha Vituun)? I am wondering whether there is any
> clarification regarding this in the ancient grammars.

1856
From: George Bedell <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sat May 20, 2006 7:11 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?

A basic point about IPA has so far not been made: IPA is a tool to
represent pronunciation in a language independent way.  It is not
intended (and not suited) for use as a practical orthography.  This
discussion began with a request from Dhammanando for suggestions on how
to represent Pali niggahiita using IPA.  I made one suggestion (and so
far there hasn't been another).  But even if we agreed on how to
represent niggahiita, that would not mean that everybody should write
niggahiita (or Pali in general) in IPA.  I don't believe Dhammanando
would advocate that, and I certainly would not.  Phonetic
representation (of which IPA is most widespread system) and practical
orthography are two different animals.

So what is a good practical orthography?  A system of symbols (letters)
which represents not every phonetic property of every sound, but just
enough to distinguish each word in the language from all the others.
Considerations of this sort belong not to phonetics, but to phonology.
In the case of Pali there is a centuries old analysis (which everybody
still uses).  It is the list of 41 (or 43) vannas to be found at the
beginning of Pali grammars.  An orthography results from assigning a
letter to each them, and it really doesn't matter much whether those
letters are of Indian origin (Sinhalese, Burmese, nagari, etc.) or of
western origin (romanization) so long as each vanna is represented in a
distinct way.

> The problem is that virtually all Pali textbooks I've seen
> claim that this [velar nasal] is the correct pronunciation
> of the anuswara itself (Narada, etc.);

Naarada (p. 3) is discussing pronunciation, therefore he should be
using IPA.  He does say that the pronunciation of niggahiita is the
same as the ka-vagga nasal, and distinguishes them in terms of the
phonetic environment.  It is not clear whether this represents his own
pronunciation, or what he thinks his English-speaking students can
handle.  But in either case there is nothing problematic about it.

> As with the comments alluded to from Sk. sources, this may
> be a "linguistic ideal" that can only exist in metapysics,
> not spoken language.

To the extent that this is so, it disqualifies the passages in question
from relevance to our concerns.  Possibly the Indians did not
distinguish between phonetics and metaphysics; we (I hope) do.

> the correct IPA form for the velar nasal (viz., the "ng"
> ending the first line of the Pali alphabet) is currently
> used to represent the anuswara (e.g., in the English-Pali
> dictionary, etc.) --so to follow the IPA convention here
> would cause more confusion than it solves.

If the compilers of the dictionary intended to represent a velar nasal
(as Naarada did), there is no problem here.  Even if they did not,
there is no problem if they clearly stated what their symbol means.

> But the PTS standard has been especially problematic in
> precisely this respect, viz., the issue of breaking off
> compound words with the velar /'n/ into a sequence of words
> ending with anuswara, and even destroying combinations where
> /.m/ becomes /m/ due to euphony, etc.  I would further say
> that the PTS is influential only with a small circle of
> scholars in England who continue to put out un-edited and
> un-corrected re-issues (similar to Xerox copies) of 100
> year old texts for the edification of a small circle of
> subscribers.  Despite the awe that the PTS inspires with
> so many in Sri Lanka, their orthographic conventions have
> not been (nor are now becoming) universal there.

Eisel has a bee in his bonnet about western Pali scholarship in general
and the PTS in particular.  The 'problem' he refers to (when to apply
sandhi and when not) arises no matter what orthography is used.  No
doubt the influence of western scholarship has had some negative
effects.  But I cannot imagine what Pali studies would be like today
without the legacy of the PTS.  Certainly it would be closed to me.
The PTS standard is a transliteration of standard Pali orthographies in
the Indic tradition.  Pace Eisel, it is a very good orthography, easy
to learn and easy to use (for westerners at least). Compare it with
standard Chinese or English orthography.

George Bedell


*   *   *   *   *
George Bedell
120/2 Palm Springs Place
Mahidol Road, Chiang Mai 50000
THAILAND
+66 (0)53-241342
correspondence in Japanese may be addressed to
      gbedelljp@yahoo.co.jp

1857
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sat May 20, 2006 7:29 am 
Subject: SV: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Jim,

.thaane has basically the same value as sthaane in Sanskrit grammar. The
rule states that before following /ya/ etc. the vowel is optionally elided
from phonemes that occur (.thitaana.m) immediately before /ya/ etc. when
otherwise the vowel would be expected to apply (.thaane).
One would e.g. expect /u/ to occur before /m/ of padmaani. However, /u/ is
elided from /d/ that occur immediately before /m/.

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 19. maj 2006 20:22
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] ratyaa, ratya.m

Dear Phra Yuttadhammo,

I found two sandhi rules in the Saddaniiti that can account for rattiyaa >
ratyaa, etc. but haven't yet found their counterparts in Kaccaayana or
Ruupasiddhi.

1858
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sat May 20, 2006 10:15 am 
Subject: Pali phonetics  

The Pali grammarians starting with Kaccayana devote a few suttas (Kacc 35)
to a series of consonantal aagamas that occur in sandhi. Take, for instance,
the following passage from M I 303: yadariyaa  etarahi  aayatana.m
upasampajja  viharantii ti. The interpretation en vogue since Geiger is that
the relative pronoun yad is a "historical" form corresponding to Sanskrit
yad. In the present case the pronoun is to be construed with aayatana.m.
However, there are quite a few cases where one cannot interpret yad as
"historical." Take, for instance, M III 216:  tayo satipa.t.thaanaa yadariyo
sevati, where yad evidently refers to tayo satipa.t.thaanaa. No one, I
believe, is willing to interpret yad as a "historical" form in this case:
the form is evidently = acc. plural to be construed with sevati, the object
being the three satipa.t.thaana. The commentator therefore comments ye
satipa.t.haane  ariyo  ...  sevati (Ps V 27). There are many similar
examples. In the first case, we would expect ya.mariyo for yadariyo and in
the second case ye ariyo.
My question is therefore: How are we to interpret such and similar features
of the language?
I propose that they are to be interpreted as glides. In the first case the
expected /.m/ was elided and a on-glide /d/ was articulated before ariyo.
The second case is particularly interesting because the expected /e/ of ye
apparently was treated like /e/ before vowel in Sanskrit (except before /a/
like here): ye ariyo > *yay ariyo > ya ariyo > ya d-ariyo. /d/ as glide
occurs often in environments like ya.m ya d-eva (f. sg. acc.), bahu d-eva,
puna d-eva. The usual practice is to call consonants like /d/ (Kacc 34
treats it as an aagama) sandhi consonants. That is not very helpful in my
opinion. Interestingly, the remaining aagamas and except /t/ and /d/ are
continuants.

Ole Holten Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1859
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 20, 2006 12:12 pm 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Ole,

Thanks for your explanation of the term ".thaane" which I think can be
translated as "in the place or room". I could therefore translate the gloss:

"yakaara-makaara-nakaara-rakaaraadisu paresu anantare .thitaana.m
va.n.naana.m saralopo hoti vaa .thaane." (Sd 69) as:

"Optionally, there is vowel elision of the va.n.naa-s standing in the place
immediately before the letters: ya, ma, na, ra, etc."

The locative meaning of "ya-ma-na-raadisu" in the sutta is interpreted
according to Paa.nini's intepretative rule I 1.66 and the genitive meaning
of ".thitaana.m va.n.naana.m" in the vutti according to his rule I 1.49.

I'm still somewhat baffled by ".Thaane ti kasmaa: Suppiyo... paribbaajako."
Is it just to give an example where the operation of vowel elision is not
found to take place? In other words, it's not an option here. "Supyo" would
look very odd.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< .thaane has basically the same value as sthaane in Sanskrit grammar. The
rule states that before following /ya/ etc. the vowel is optionally elided
from phonemes that occur (.thitaana.m) immediately before /ya/ etc. when
otherwise the vowel would be expected to apply (.thaane).
One would e.g. expect /u/ to occur before /m/ of padmaani. However, /u/ is
elided from /d/ that occur immediately before /m/.

Ole Pind >>

1860
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 20, 2006 3:59 pm 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Ole,

I'm just following up on my previous reply regarding ".thaane". I think I
have to revise my understanding of the term as it seems to be used
adverbially in the sense of "in the appropriate places" (= yuttattha?) or
"in some cases" (= kvaci). The two previous suttas 67-8 also use the same
term and I think it is just carried forward into Sd 69. As Sd  67 has its
counterpart in Kc 28, I was able to track down an explanation of the term in
the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii as follows:

".thaanasaddo yuttatthavaacako, adhippaayatthavasena kvaci saddattho.
kvacisadda.t.thaane .thitattaa." --p. 99 (I think "kvaci saddattho" should
probably be "kvacisaddattho")

Jim

1861
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat May 20, 2006 4:26 pm 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Based on Jim last e-mail on thaane (in some cases...) is this
just an example of the locative absolute as is common in epic
Sanskrit?
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 12:12:28 -0400
>From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] ratyaa, ratya.m
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Dear Ole,
>
>Thanks for your explanation of the term ".thaane" which I
think can be
>translated as "in the place or room". I could therefore
translate the gloss:
>

1862
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 3:08 am 
Subject: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m dhammanando_... 

Dear Jim,

> I'm still somewhat baffled by ".Thaane ti kasmaa: Suppiyo...
> paribbaajako."
> Is it just to give an example where the operation of vowel elision is
> not
> found to take place? In other words, it's not an option here. "Supyo"
> would
> look very odd.

I have just had Phra Maha Nimitr round for tea and put your
question to him. His take is that when composing in Pali one
oughtn't to innovate by eliding the 'i' in any case that is
not actually attested to in any Pali text. I suspect Ven.
Yuttadhammo's teacher may have been making the same
point when he denied the possibility of "nandyo".

In his Thai translation of the Suttamaalaa Nimitr gives an
expansive rendering, based on the Saddaniiti-.tiikaa of
Pa~n~naasaami:

.thaaneti kasmaa?
"_.thaane_ was added for what purpose?"

suppiyo paribbaajako
"In order to indicate that in most cases of this sort there
will be no vowel elision; e.g., suppiyo paribbaajako."

This is accompanied by a footnote: "Even though there is a
'y' following it, the 'i' in 'pi' is not elided to make
'suppayo' because such a form is not exampled in the Pali."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1863
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 3:09 am 
Subject: Re: Monophthongs in IPA dhammanando_... 

George,

Thank you, this is now clear.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

> Sorry for the obscurity.  The point is: many languages have vowel
> systems with [a, i, u] but not [inverted v, I, upsilon].  Few (if any)
> have vowel systems with the vowels [inverted v, I, upsilon], but not
> [a, i, u].  Thus the 'short' vowels are marked with respect to the
> 'long' vowels.  Meaning that if you have marked vowels, you expect to
> have the corresponding unmarked vowels also.

1864
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 4:56 am 
Subject: Re: VRI Kacc. numbering errata  

I'll just note that I'm *not* using the VRI/CSCD edition of Kacc. (I
assume you're referring to a CD-ROM extext, bhante) --I do have the
SLTP etext, but rarely use it for more than the occasional
computerized search.

The early version of the VRI disc that I now have is amazingly
Apple-incompatable --and I assumed that the text was not proof-read to
a high enough level to make it worth my while to include it in
comparative reading.

Bhante, if your experience with the text was good, I could make an
effort to get my hands on the (e-)text in question.

E.M.

1865
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 5:17 am 
Subject: Re: Monophthongs in IPA  

I suppose I'm the only person on this list to have met A.K. Warder
(?); he still collects his mail if you'd like to write to him.

I'd like to disagree with the suggestion that Warder was intentionally
"Anglicizing" the distinction between long and short vowels.

The theoretical belief that the paried Pali vowels differ only by
duration (not by sound _per se_) is not encountered in practice.  I
believe that Warder's bias would have been his extensive experience
with native speakers of modern Indian langauges, and living Pali
scholars from Sri Lanka.

You must be very careful when checking against examples such as "hut"
vs. "barn" --the European (English) vowel can be radically different
than the American.  An english aristocrat pronounces /barn/ as
"baa-n", whereas a Yankee has a shorter vowel and a hard "r".  The IPA
transcription will be different for British english than in an
american IPA dictionary.  I would assume that Warder was "thinking in
British english" with these examples.

E.M.

1866
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 5:38 am 
Subject: Re: Niggahiita in IPA?  

(1) I have nothing against the tilde, but it is to be observed that
Senart used "m" + tilde for the anuswara over a century ago --and it
still hasn't caught on.

(2) There is no reason to start a dispute with the Czechs --they don't
use the anuswara.  The "circle" of the anusvara could be placed to the
right, as in Sinhalese script, rather than above the letter.  There is
also no reason to have a "hollow" circle; it can be a solid dot, or
even a turned square (as in devanagari).  I doubt the Swedes will be
confused --and besides, they've been arguing that their gods appear in
the Vedas for 200 years.

E.M.

1867
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 5:55 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Niggahiita in IPA? Bee in bonnet  

G. Bedell wrote:

> Eisel has a bee in his bonnet about western Pali scholarship in general
> and the PTS in particular.  The 'problem' he refers to (when to apply
> sandhi and when not) arises no matter what orthography is used.  No
> doubt the influence of western scholarship has had some negative
> effects.  But I cannot imagine what Pali studies would be like today
> without the legacy of the PTS.  Certainly it would be closed to me.
> The PTS standard is a transliteration of standard Pali orthographies in
> the Indic tradition.

You say that I have a bee in my bonnet, but do not actually point out
any respect in which the points raised in my prior e-mail are
unreasonable; the issue of breaking down euphonic combinations into
separate words is a salient and reasonable point to raise in a
discussion of different systems of transliterating (and different
phonetic explanations of) the anuswara.  I really did not write
anything to deserve this stray insult.

George, it is touching that you feel so indebted to the PTS; I have
met many in the world of Buddhist studies who feel similar admiration
for whatever master or elder monk tutored them, etc., and there seems
to be something in human nature that tends to flatter whatever one
cannot do without.  As I have explained on this list before, it so
happens that I am not one of those who feel this debt to the PTS.  I
work with asian editions, asian manuscripts, and asian epigraphy, in
asian scripts; I do not believe I have ever used or relied upon a PTS
edition of any Pali text at any time in my life.  Many Asian editions
are problematic; the PTS editions are also problematic; however, I
find the problems in Asian editions to be "worth solving".

George, I know that you have read the lengthy quotation from K.R.
Norman in my introduction --he was the former head of the PTS, and he
was able to make an honest statement about the limited value of their
current editions.  I have not said that these books are worthless, but
I think I am within my rights (and within the limits of my expertise)
to agree with Norman in calling attention to the limited value/use of
those editions (too many ignore serious problems with those sources,
as Norman said himself in that quotation).

> Pace Eisel, it is a very good orthography, easy
> to learn and easy to use (for westerners at least). Compare it with
> standard Chinese or English orthography.

However, those are *spurious* comparisons.  The PTS system does not
compare so favourably with the systems of orthography used to display
Pali for circa 2,000 years.  A comparison of the PTS system to 9th
century Pallava script might be more meaningful.

E.M.

1868
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 8:15 am 
Subject: Re: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote:
> I have just had Phra Maha Nimitr round for tea and put your
> question to him. His take is that when composing in Pali one
> oughtn't to innovate by eliding the 'i' in any case that is
> not actually attested to in any Pali text. I suspect Ven.
> Yuttadhammo's teacher may have been making the same
> point when he denied the possibility of "nandyo".
>
>
Dear Jim, Dhammanando, et al,

Thanks for your explanations.  Please don't misunderstand that there was
any intention of composing innovative Pali verses... the real reason for
asking in the first place, was to give a source to Ven. Maha Vituun for
future reference, as he said he couldn't find any explanation as to
whether one should conjugate uumi and nandi like ratti.  He even
mentioned that modern Thai teachers sometimes try to get their students
to do just that "uumiyaa, uuyaa" !?  I think the two rules given by Jim
explain the actual nature of the change in ratti:  ratti +smi.m = ratti
+ yaa = ratt + yaa (rule 1, vowel elision) = rat + yaa (rule 2,
consonant elision) = ratyaa

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1869
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 2:23 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Dear Ven. Dhammanando,

Thanks for putting my question to Phra Maha Nimitr and for relaying back his
answer along with your added notes. It all seems clear to me now and the
gloss on ".thaane" in the Kaccaayanatthadipanii is also very helpful. For
the dictionary meaning of adverbial ".thaane", PED isn't helpful but Apte
for "sthaane" (ind.) gives "1. In the right or proper place, rightly,
properly, justly, truly, appropriately; ..."

Best wishes,
Jim

1870
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun May 21, 2006 2:55 pm 
Subject: Re: VRI Kacc. numbering errata  

Dear Eisel,

I often work with the VRI/CSCD etext version of Kaccaayanabyaakara.na and
I'm sure it's based on the same Burmese edition that we both have in a hard
copy. My copy was printed in 1986 while yours, in 2005, which may just be a
reprint identical to my 1986 copy. I've ordered a new copy so I'll be able
to compare the two. The etext version is not quite as reliable as I
occasionally come across  typos not found in the hard copy and this is a
problem with most Pali grammatical etexts. They're in dire need of
proofreading and correction.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< I'll just note that I'm *not* using the VRI/CSCD edition of Kacc. (I
assume you're referring to a CD-ROM extext, bhante) --I do have the
SLTP etext, but rarely use it for more than the occasional
computerized search. >>

1871
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 4:36 am 
Subject: SV: VRI Kacc. numbering errata  

I agree. In addition, the Burmese version of Kacc and its old vutti differs
considerably from the Sinhalese and Thai one. The Burmese ed. omit Kacc
244-45, presumably because at some point it was edited on the basis of
Vimalabuddhi's Mukhamattadiipanii ad loc. Vimalabuddhiit considered it to be
an interpolation.

Ole Pind


Dear Eisel,

I often work with the VRI/CSCD etext version of Kaccaayanabyaakara.na and
I'm sure it's based on the same Burmese edition that we both have in a hard
copy. My copy was printed in 1986 while yours, in 2005, which may just be a
reprint identical to my 1986 copy. I've ordered a new copy so I'll be able
to compare the two. The etext version is not quite as reliable as I
occasionally come across  typos not found in the hard copy and this is a
problem with most Pali grammatical etexts. They're in dire need of
proofreading and correction.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< I'll just note that I'm *not* using the VRI/CSCD edition of Kacc. (I
assume you're referring to a CD-ROM extext, bhante) --I do have the SLTP
etext, but rarely use it for more than the occasional computerized search.
>>

1872
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:09 am 
Subject: Re: VRI Kacc. numbering errata  

Dr. Pind,

> ...presumably because at some point it was edited on the basis of
> Vimalabuddhi's Mukhamattadiipanii ad loc. Vimalabuddhiit considered it to be
> an interpolation.

I hope you realize that I'm going to quote your opinion to that effect
in a footnote for the verse in question!

E.M.

1873
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:16 am 
Subject: Updated Pali website (viz., mine); Lao & Thai Pali

My website has finally been updated --some of the material has been
long-delayed in being "published" to the web.

The page now makes use of Unicode glyphs; you may want to use
"Firefox" rather than "Microsoft Internet explorer" to display it
(both are free programmes).  If you see a page full of Chinese glyphs,
the software you're using cannot properly display Unicode HTML; try
selecting "View", then set the "Encoding" option to UTF-8 if you can't
read it properly on first inspection.

http://pali.pratyeka.org/

I previously posted the material on Burmese-pali "phonology" to this
list (it was revised somewhat before being added to my website in its
current form) but I'll now post the material on Lao and Thai
pronunciation.  This quotes a few fairly obscure Thai studies articles
on Sk. & Pali loan-words in Thai that will be of interest to a few
list-members.  Other new material on the updated web-page includes
maps of the organization of the canon and its commentaries, etc.
E.M.
----
Lao (Pali) Pronunciation and Phonology
The Lao pronunciation of Pali cannot be explained without reference to
the orthography; it is both the case that some orthographic changes
have been imposed upon the phonology, and, obversely, the phonological
changes made to Pali cognates (appropriated into vernacular Lao) are
now foisted onto the pronunciation of the classical language. Such
confusion is both natural and inevitable in the interchange of two
radically different languages. Lao is comprised of tonal
monosyllables, whereas Pali is non-tonal and polysyllabic, the former
is synthetic and grammatically complex, the latter is in some measure
analytic and agglutinative, with a grammatical system of protean
simplicity (e.g., Lao does not distinguish words according to gender,
number, nor case/declension).

In future, I'll likely publish a more extensive article on this
subject, but, for the time being, I'll provide the following
observations in brief.

The modern language has fewer consonant sounds than the classical, and
so both the modern orthography and the vernacular phonetic assumptions
are imperfectly mapped onto the full grid of classical consonant
sounds. This yields certain, consistent misapprehensions, such as:
In the modern alphabetic order, a single "j" sound (by the English "j"
I mean the I.P.A. phoneme "d'") now stands where the classical
language formerly had a range of four consonants "c-ch-j-jh". The
sibilants (viz., two "s" glyphs, distinguished according to tonality)
have here been interposed (as if to fill in the gap left by the
collapse of these four distinct sounds into one!). One direct result
of this is the imposition of a vernacular "s" sound (writ ຊ, never ສ)
onto words with classical "j", e.g., jāti ' sāt, and jarā ' salā. This
can apply equally to medial j, jj, or jjh, e.g.: vijjā ' visā.
The classical distinction between "k" and "g" has largely disappeared;
the modern use of three remaining "k" glyphs primarily distinguishes
them in respect of tonality (a small degree of aspiration or
consonant-sound variation may or may not mutually distinguish them in
accordance with local dialect, but this can only be considered as part
of the language a posteriori, and with inconsistency).
The vernacular "d" and "plosive d" (distinguished by a phonetic
criterion that did not exist in the classical language) are associated
with "t" and the aspirated "th" respectively. Aspiration is a
distinction that does not exist in the vernacular, with confusion
ensuing. The glyph ຕ, now used to express the "plosive d" sound is,
unfortunately, the same as was used in classical times to represent
one of the "k" sounds (this can still be seen, e.g., in the Lanna "k")
--this opens another possible avenue for confusion. More frequently we
find ຕ (the "plosive d") used where we might logically expect to find
" in Pali cognates, viz., representing classical dental-"t" in the
initial position after monosyllabization, e.g., kataveditā '
ກະຕະເວທ ;
kattari ' ກະໄຕ/ກະຕັ".
The two vernacular "t" glyphs then have the obverse problem of being
associated with classical "d" and "dh", and also serving as
inconsistent substitutes for the retroflex sounds (ḍ/ḍh) that exist in
the classical, but not the modern language. While the the second (low
tone-class) "t" ("ທໍ-ທຸງ") would be theoretically equivalent to Pāli
"dh" (and as a substitute for Pāli "ḍh"), we find in fact that it is
often used to represent the classical (unaspirated) dental "d" in
cognates, e.g., dāna ' tān (ທານ) --this invites further confusion.
Similarly, the pairing of "b" and "abrupt/plosive b" are now used to
represent the classical "p" and "aspirated p" sounds in an uncertain
and inconsistent manner; even the name of the language itself (Pāli)
is sometimes written in Lao with one, sometimes with the other
character (ປາລ  vs. ບາລ ).
There is ever the possibility of confusion between ñ and y in the
contact between the classical and the vernacular, with the proximate
causes being:
The graphical similarity between the two in Lao (ຍ vs. ຢ).
Confusion over which glyph to use due to rules (internal to Lao)
concerning the representation of the y sound in initial vs. final
position.
Confusion in the transcription of classical subscript-"y" forms into
vernacular scripts that either lack such forms entirely, or may employ
the equivalent symbols them with a different logic than the method
used in writing Pali (as in the use subscripts of Lao-Tham for old
vernacular Lao, or Lanna script for vernacular Northern Thai; the
subscripts are graphically the same as those used for Pali, but their
signification is different, especially so far as implied vowels are
concerned). The common concomitant of an alteration arising from this
cause would be the insertion of spurious medial vowels in-between
(classical) compound consonants where a formerly-subscript y was
misinterpreted.
As an example (of historical confusion of ñ vs. y) Prapandvidya
proposes that the Sanskrit word kriyā entered Thai as krayā (กระยา)
from krañā, with the unusual vowel change explained by reference to
the medium of a (supposed) Khmer pronunciaton of the Sanskrit as
kreya; thus, Prapandvidya's semantic claim is that the modern Thai
meaning of "Mode, thing, edible" derives from the ancient (Sanskrit)
meaning of "rite/offering". [Chirapat Prapandvidya, 1996, "The Indic
Origin of Some Obscure Thai Words", Proceedings of the 6th
International Conference of Thai Studies, Theme IV, Vol. I, p.
415-426] It seems more likely to me that the implicit vowel "a"
(in-between the first two letters) has been lost in appopriating one
of the various Pali words starting with kara- and (semantically)
indicating the means of action, mode, or grammatical instrumentality;
thus, any number of Pali words (or compound words) related to karaṇa
would provide a semanitcally appropriate origin for a sequence of
substitutions along the lines of karaṇā ' karañā ' krañā '
krayā.
The
latter sequence that does not make sense if we assume the source must
be Sanskrit transmitted via Khmer, but it makes perfect sense for Pali
loan word transmitted via Lao (and then transliterated into modern
Thai). The classical retroflex "ṇ" is commonly enough supplanted with
Lao "ñ" (e.g., the realted Pali term karaṇā ' ກຣິຍາ, kariñā),
and the
latter could then be mis-read as "y" due to Thai confusion when
reading Lao ຍ as if it functioned as the (graphically identical) Thai
ย.
Although the modern and vernacular alphabets have maintained the
pattern of ending each row with a nasal, the dental "n" that concludes
the third row must also serve to represent the classical retroflex ṇ,
as the vernacular affords no closer equivalent. Generally, the
retroflex sounds have dental substitutes, but the nasal sounds are
especially prone to being simplified, especially where a modern reader
would interpret them as being in the final position of a monosyllable,
and so dropping the final vowel thereafter.
Confusion between "b" and "v" has both ancient and proximate causes.
The similarity between the figures used for these glyphs in Fa-Kham
script may be a proximate cause (Fa-Kham is a script adapted from
Cambodian and used extensively in inscriptions in central Thailand
from at least the Sukhothai period); confusion about the separate
existence of the classical "v" seems to have prevailed in all
Khmer/Khom-related scripts from a very early period, and may derive in
part from the South-Indian pronounciation of "b"/"v" in transmitting
Sanskrit to mainland South East Asia [see: Michel Ferlus, 1997 ,"The
origin of the Graph b in the Thai script", in South East Asian
Linguisitc Studies in Honour of Vichin Panupong, Arthur S. Abramson
[ed.], Chulalongkorn University Press, p. 79-82]. While Ferlus's
article [cited] is very useful, it overlooks the fact that substituion
rules and variant spellings within Pali already indicate some
mutability between "v" and "b" before undertaking the passage to
Cambodia, and (as Ferlus notes) no similar confusion can be seen in
the Monic scripts (he posits that the solution was finally to derive a
new "b" in the Khmer group from a Mon source/inspiration, replacing
the pre-11th century square/blob "b"-glyph that, up to that time,
still resembled the form used by Aśoka). Ferlus's article also omits
to mention the source of confusion in the use of vernacular "v/w" as
both a consonant and a semi-vowel in Tai-Kadai langauges, and that
this was sometimes an impetus for orthographic changes (note, e.g.,
that in Lanna script this entails an orthographic distinction between
two subscript forms of "v/w").
The classical language has no "f" sound whatsoever (so the two
vernacular "f" glyphs do not enter into the confusion), but either of
the (tonally distinct) vernacular "p" sounds may now be found
representing the classical "b" sounds, or, less often, will be found
where we should expect a "v" in Pāli (for the reasons outlined above).
The labial row of the alphabet presents a relatively simple instance
of the "inversion" of of the sequence of sounds (viz., the order of
classical "p" and "b" are exchanged, reading the vernacular
equivalents from left to right) more uncertainty will be found in
praxis, as the moderns have had to resolve many complex geminates and
consonant clusters (involving classical "p", "ph", "b", "bh", or
occasionally "v") into simple monosyllables with these
mutually-confusing symbols. Thus, so far as initial consonants are
concerned, we observe the general transformation of classical b/bh
into the two (tonally distinguished) vernacular p sounds, and,
vice-versa, classical p becomes b or "the plosive b", but with less
consistency than the inversions of former rows; thus, e.g., bhāsā '
pāsā (ພາສາ), and padesa ' ƀatet (ປະເທ"), though one
might
instead
expect to find it as ບະເທ".
Tertiary patterns of simplification of geminate morphemes, and
substitution of dental sounds for retroflexes, etc., are pretty well
self-evident, and are not much worse than the attempts of Europeans to
pronounce Sanskrit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cambodian (Pali) Pronunciation and Phonology
In the future, I may add some further remarks on (the very interesting
subject of) Cambodian pronunciation. For the time being, if you have
the patience, you can try to sort this out for yourself by working
through Huffman & Proum's textbook, that I have scanned and posted
here).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thai (Pali) Pronunciation and Phonology
Much that applies to Thai has already been explained in the section on
Lao (above). The problems that are unique to the Thai recitation of
Pali can be most easily (although not with great certainly) explained
by orthographic developments that were ancient in their causes, but
modern in their effects.

From about the 13th century until the modern period, central Thai
vernacular languages were written in a tradition of "Fa-kham" scripts
that were derived from classical Cambodian, but were modified in
response to the phonetic (and tonal) needs of Thai languages,
developing in a separate line of succession (as it were) from the
scripts used to write Pali (viz., Khom [classical Khmer] script in the
south, and the Lanna/Tham/Monic scripts in the north of what is now
Thailand). There are now many monstrous problems of interpretation
that Thai speakers encounter both when reading Pali (or Sanskrit)
cognates in their own language, and also when attempting to learn or
recite Pali (or Sanskrit), precisely because the vernacular
modifications that the Fa-Kham orthographic tradition underwent have
now been foisted back onto the classical language.

While Lao orthography has been modernized to be almost perfectly
phonetic, modern Thai has moved somewhat in the opposite direction:
official spellings are heavily Sanskritized, as if to draw special
attention to both the Indic and classical Cambodian origins of much of
its vocabulary. This only makes it more difficult for native Thai
speakers to pronounce Pali (or Sanskrit) correctly, as they are
accustomed to eliding so many Sanskritic elements that appear in their
written language, but are not now (and likely never were) part of the
spoken-vernacular form. For example, "|confusion may arise because
there is no indication if two consonants are a compound or not, such
as: candra may be pronounced can-tha-ra, can-thra, or even can-thom."
["Changes of Pali-Sanskrit Loan-words in Thai", Prof. Visudh Busyakul,
in Sanskrit in Southeast Asia, 2003, Sanskrit Studies Centre,
Silpakorn University, Bangkok, pg. 522]

The example just given also shows that Thais are burdened with an
inherently confusing system of implicit vowels, and, when faced with
Pali text (or cognates) in their own script, will frequently
misapprehend where the implied vowel is "a", "o", or none at all. A
native Thai reader will be accustomed to guessing where to reduce a
consonant to a nasal sound, or where to treat it as non-final and
assign an implicit vowel sound following it (note, above,
"can-tha-ra", vs. "can-thom"). On the whole, this entails that Thais
are highly inclined to omit/elide morphemes from Pali words, ranging
from the simplification of initial compound consonants, to the
reduction of medial geminates to terminal consonants, or, very often,
the omission of the entire terminations of polysyllabic words, i.e.,
making it impossible to determine the grammtical significance of
any/all words in a sentence.

So far as Pali is concerned, it may be complained that these problems
are not endemic to the Thai orthography (per se), but merely arise
from the inappropriate (vernacular) assumptions of native speakers in
reading it. Naturally, the overlap of the modern and the ancient in
the form of cognates used in everyday language has a powerful
influence over the interpretation of the classical language (as the
script used for both is now one and the same). In reading classical
cognates (etc.) the reader has no clear direction or consistent rule
to follow (in modern Thai script), and so inevitably develops a habit
of anticipating what is left indeterminate by the script. Needless to
say, these "anticipations" (that serve to fill in the unwritten
portion of the phonics of ancient words) are subject to variations of
dialect and locality, and project social status and ethnicity within
Thai society.

I have already made reference to a very short article on this subject
(less than four pages) titled "Changes of Pali-Sanskrit Loan-words in
Thai", by Prof. Visudh Busyakul[Op. cit. supra]. One of the
peculiarities of the article is that it describes the changes in the
Thai pronunciation of Sanskrit (and, thus, by extension, Pali) quite
as if they were part of an intentional plan carried out by king Ram
Khamheng. Busyakul thus regrets that some phonological distinction
between the first four consonants of the classical alphabet was not
devised by the latter king (who may well be fictional, N.B., as
according to Michael Vickery's articles in The Ramkhamheng
Controversy, etc.), as the Khmer distinction (by means of vowel
changes) was lost, leaving the sequence that was originally
"k-kh-g-gh" to read as a nearly undifferentiated sequence of four "k"
sounds. This would indeed be an astounding error if we beleived that
any such change was actually devised by a single man's conscious
intention. Ferlus instead presumes that at a remote date ancient Thai
distinguished "a non-voiced dorsal fricative" and also a "voiced
dorsal fricative", and that these have since dropped out of the spoken
language, leaving their fossils (so to speak) in the odd array of k/g
glyphs that were modified from Khmer to make up the first row of the
Fa-Kham alphabet. [Op. cit. supra, p. 79-80]

Busyakul's account of Thai phonological simplifications (of the
classical language) provides another detail of significance in
contrast to Lao: "As a rule," he writes, "the unaspirated sonant and
aspirated sonant of all five series [i.e., rows of the alphabet] are
pronounced as the aspirated surd of the corresponding series". [Op
cit., pg. 521] Thus, e.g., he would define the Thai pronunciation of
the second line of the Indic alphabet as "ca-cha-cha-ña". This is a
significant difference from the Lao interpretation of the equivalent
row of glyphs (see above), and my limited experience would tend to
affirm that the central Thais do apply a hard "cha" sound to many
Pali/Sanskrit loan-words where a Laotian would read "s" (the classical
spelling of the words in question being a "j" sound).

Another example in the history of Thai phonetic and orthographic
shifts is examined at some length by Michel Ferlus, op. cit. supra.
Ferlus provides some interesting illustrations as to how the Fa-Kham
scripts (that were to be later reduced to modern Thai) both initially
diverged from Cambodian (to suit Thai phonetic requirements) and then
changed over time with the vernacular.

The interchange of classical "t" for modern "d", and "p" for "b" (I
described at length for Lao, above) is very simply accounted for by
Busyakul as follows: "...these words have been imported into Thai not
directly, but through the Khmer medium." [Op cit., pg. 522] Although
there is some small measure of truth to this, I honestly do not see
how the Cambodians can be blamed any more than Ram Khamheng. Briefly,
the Khmer system provides vowel-sound distinctions as substitutes for
classical consonant distinctions (i.e., the listener can distinguish
one classical consonant from another by hearing a difference in the
associated vowel sound). By design or by accident, the Thais dispensed
with this system, and (as mentioned briefly above) have instead
created new grounds for confusion as to which vowels are associated
with which consonants (both for cognates and classical text in modern
script); but even so, the problem discussed would not have existed
before the mid-19th century, when vernacular Thai script was suddenly
foisted onto the ancient language, and a combination of
Western-missionary schools and Thai state education replaced the
monastic transmission of literacy, with predictable results for the
Pali tradition.

So far as listening comprehension of Pali chanting, the issues in
Thailand are largely similar to those with modern Lao in the "Buddhist
heartland" of Thailand, viz., the Issan country in the North-East,
where the predominant language remains lowland-Laotian (but state
education is entirely in central-Thai). Although the Issan country is
among the regions least often visited by tourists in Thailand, all the
quantitative measures of Buddhist education and religious activity
seem to affirm what many would report anecdotely, i.e., that the Issan
remain (disproportionately) the staunchest supporters of Buddhist
monasticism in Thailand. Thus, while some students who are new to the
field may find it odd that so much attention is given to Lao on this
web-site, the fact is that the language spoken in the environs of the
monasteries (in modern Thailand) where so many Westerners ordain is
not Thai, but Lao (e.g., Wat Nanachat outside of Ubon Ratchathani, or
the famous Dhutanga monasteries along the Mekong, both to the west and
east of Nong Khai). Thus, the Lao section will be of more utility for
those itending to ordain in Thailand than they might at first suspect.

Although I have more enthusiasm for adapting my ear to dialectical
changes of this kind than most Western scholars, it must be complained
that the paucity of (mutually-distinguishable) consonant sounds in the
vernacular (without the Khmer remedy of systematically-associated
vowel changes) when combined with the tendency toward
"monosyllabization" (e.g., omitting final sounds, and so depriving the
classical language of its marks of declensions and conjugations) has
resulted in the real incomprehensibility of Pali as it is recited in
most of Thailand today. This reduction of the languge to
un-grammatical, mutually-indistinguishable, and genuinely
incomprehensible monosyllables in the context of ritual performance
has encouraged the tendency of religious followership to presume to
take the source texts as tabula rasa, attributing to them both
pre-Buddhist myths that are wildly at variance with the texts in
question, or, with equal ease, taking the texts as a corroboration for
relatively recent innovations in the popular faith. Obversely, I must
imagine that it is discouraging to a native Thai reader to have to
figure out the obtuse way in which the familiar (vernacular) script is
made to express the classical sounds, with an unfamiliar system of
both implicit vowels and explicit consonant values --although it is a
very small minority of monks in Thailand who learn even this much
about the ancient language. The tradition of Thai word-glosses (which
is the one part of the Pali tradition that is indispensible for
sermons and rituals) effectively severs the study of lexis from
grammar or even pronunciation, and, in modern Thailand, it is
primarily the ability to gloss Pali words in isolation that is
cultivated among the clergy.

1874
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:16 am 
Subject: SV: ratyaa, ratya.m  

Based on Jim last e-mail on thaane (in some cases...) is this just an
example of the locative absolute as is common in epic Sanskrit?
Best,
Jm


In this particular case .thaane occurs after vaa, and I think it must be
interpreted in the sense of prasa.nge "when there is occasion for
application." The explanation is syntactically ambiguous, but seems to say:
before following (paresu) /y/ /m/ etc. there is optionally vowel elision
from phonemes that occur before the immediately following
(phoneme)(anantare) when there is occasion for its application. Take the
example of padma :: paduma; before /m/ the vowel /u/ is elided from /d/ that
occur before the immediately following (phoneme)/m/.

Best,
Ole Pind

1875
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:18 am 
Subject: SV: VRI Kacc. numbering errata  

Dr. Pind,

> ...presumably because at some point it was edited on the basis of
> Vimalabuddhi's Mukhamattadiipanii ad loc. Vimalabuddhiit considered it
> to be an interpolation.

I hope you realize that I'm going to quote your opinion to that effect in a
footnote for the verse in question!

E.M.

No objections!

OP

1876
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:21 am 
Subject: Re: VRI Kacc. numbering errata

Eisel Mazard wrote:
> The early version of the VRI disc that I now have is
> amazingly Apple-incompatable --and I assumed that the text
> was not proof-read to a high enough level to make it worth
> my while to include it in comparative reading.
>
> Bhante, if your experience with the text was good, I could
> make an effort to get my hands on the (e-)text in question.

It's not terribly good. I'm only using it because I want to
make an e-text of the Tha Ma O edition with footnotes giving
the variant readings from the Mahachula edition of the so-called
Muulakaccaayana (a Thai domestic production with the suttas
differently ordered and some Ruupasiddhi explns.
incorporated into them) and using the VRI edition as a base
obviously saves typing time.

Regarding the CSCD, an Apple-user (I am one myself) need
only copy the text files onto his hard disk and then use a
search and replace program to change the characters so that
they map to his preferred font. Lance wrote such a program
and it used to be available on Frank Snow's homepage. I
used it to convert all the files on the first CD. Then when the
second one came out I used BBEdit to do the same thing.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1877
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 5:35 am 
Subject: Re: Re: VRI Kacc. numbering errata  

Bhante,

> It's not terribly good. I'm only using it because I want to
> make an e-text of the Tha Ma O edition with footnotes giving
> the variant readings from the Mahachula edition of the so-called
> Muulakaccaayana ...

This is all "a great leap forward" for Kaccayana.  When I started my
own project more than two years ago it seemed that nothing was
happening anywhere --but even the production of this 2005 Burmese
edition is quite a significant step in my opinion.
Making an e-text available will also be of great utility (it certainly
could have spared me the trip to Lampang...).

I agree with you that the footnotes in the Tha-Ma-O edition consist of
comparisons of Kacc. to non-comparable texts.  This could confuse many
readers who do not have a clear understanding of the differences
between the texts (e.g., as you mention, that Kacc. is not identical
to Muul-Kacc., etc.).  I *do not* intend to incorporate those
foot-notes into my own work, so it is good that they will be available
through your e-text edition; obviously, a footnote with a comparative
reference to Mogg. or one of the pseudo-Kaccayanas is only useful for
those who are actively comparing these texts or studying them
simultaneously.  I think "Muul-Kaccayana" is really a genre of texts
rather than a title --the Cambodians seem to have several works under
that heading that will not be the same as the Thai text that you
describe.

Further discussion of those texts "is outside the scope of my current
research".  Ha ha ha.

E.M.

1878
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 8:11 pm 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

Dear Justin (and Ven. Yuttadhammo),

Thank-you for the contact information for Buddhaghosa College. I was aware
of the College's location from our discussions last August while having a go
at transliterating the Thai title page of one of the Colllege's publications
I had received, Kaccaayanasuttaniddesa. I quote the following from a message
you posted at the time:

"This publishing office is run out of a small room in Nakorn Pathom and the
books are held, mostly, in large stacks in brown paper in the basement of a
building in the northwest corner of Wat Mahathat (the monastery grounds on
which Mahachulalongkorn Monastic University is located). These books are
available for free distribution often, but, one should make a
donation." --from message 1227, Aug. 12, 2005

I will be in touch with them for instructions on how to send a donation.
Thanks also for the information on the two universities in Bangkok and the
interest in Pali learning. And Ven. Yuttadhammo had some nice things
to say too!

Best wishes,
Jim

1879
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 8:42 pm 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

Jim Anderson wrote:
> I quote the following from a message
> you posted at the time:
>
> "This publishing office is run out of a small room in Nakorn Pathom and the
> books are held, mostly, in large stacks in brown paper in the basement of a
> building in the northwest corner of Wat Mahathat (the monastery grounds on
> which Mahachulalongkorn Monastic University is located). These books are
> available for free distribution often, but, one should make a
> donation." --from message 1227, Aug. 12, 2005
Dear Jim and Justin,

Just for the record, I am almost positive (though it took a little while
to figure it out) that section 25 is located in the South-East corner of
Wat Mahadhatu, as the front door of the monastery faces the river, which
is most certainly West of the monastery.  Entering the front door, one
has to weave one's way to the far right-hand corner of the monastery.  I
believe the North-West corner holds the Abhidhamma school.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1880
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 10:51 pm 
Subject: Re: Padarupasiddhi  

Absolutely right. I reversed it in my head. I have dyslexia
and tend to flip maps and such. If you walk in ther front
entrance (facing the river near Tha Phra Chan) and weave your
way diagonally right you will get to it (far corner) near the
Sanam Luang/Grand Palace side of the monastic grounds. There
is also a side entrance which is a shortcut.
The Abhidhamma Jotika is to the left on the corner near
Thammasat Univ.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:42:53 +0700
>From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Padarupasiddhi
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Jim Anderson wrote:
>> I quote the following from a message
>> you posted at the time:
>>

1881
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon May 22, 2006 11:09 pm 
Subject: Re: Thai-Pali Tipitaka Program  

Dear Friends,

I have added the commentaries to the Thai Tipitaka script, as well as a
simple search function (only allows one to search a specific book).
Also, I have added the names for each of the books in the mula.  I don't
have a list of names of the Thai Atthakatha in roman characters.  If
someone has or can put together such a list, I could add the names of
each book to the book selection.  The files are in the same place as
before:

> The program is split into two parts for ease of
> updating, and can be downloaded from these two links:
>
> http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/ThaiPali.zip
> http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/files/ThaiPaliPages.zip
>
> Once you have downloaded, unzip the two files in the same place, and
> they should create the directory "ThaiPali".  Open the directory and run
> index.htm.  Works on Firefox and IE 7 Beta 2, and should be
> cross-platform (ie work on Windows, Mac, Linux, etc)
>
> Please let me know if you find any bugs, either in the script or in the
> files themselves.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Yuttadhammo
>

1882
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Mon May 29, 2006 6:49 am 
Subject: Ten Bodhisattas

A Thai Abhidhamma textbook that I'm reading claims that the
Buddha encountered 510 niyata sabba~n~nuu-bodhisattas in the
course of his final life. Of these, 500 are unnamed, while
the ten named ones are:

Ajita (destined to be the Buddha Metteyya)
Raama (Buddha Raama)
Pasenadi (Buddha Dhammaraajaa)
The deva Abhibhuu (Buddha Dhammassaami)
The asura chief Raahu (Buddha Naarada)
The braahma.na Ca`nkii (Buddha Ra.msiimunii)
The maa.nava Subha (Buddha Devadeva)
The braahma.na Todeyya (Buddha Dhammissara)
The elephant Naa.laagiirii (Buddha Tissa)
The elephant Paalileyyaka (Buddha Suma`ngala)

I've never heard of any of this before. Does anyone know if
there is an Indian or Sri Lankan Pali source for it? I
wasn't able to find anything on the CSCD, despite checking
all the passages that mention the two elephants.

And who would Raama be? Uddaka's dad, perhaps? But I
didn't know the Bodhisatta ever met him.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1883
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 29, 2006 9:12 am 
Subject: Re: Ten Bodhisattas  

Dear Ven. Dhammanando,

I have a book published by PTS in 1975 entitled _The Birth-Stories of the
Ten Bodhisattas and the Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa_  translated and edited
by H. Saddhatissa. Checking against the ten names of the ten future
Sammaa-sambuddhas in the table of contents, I see that they all match your
list of ten except no. 8 which has Narasiiha instead of your
Dhammissara. I have not read the book and so can't say much about it.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Ajita (destined to be the Buddha Metteyya)
> Raama (Buddha Raama)
> Pasenadi (Buddha Dhammaraajaa)
> The deva Abhibhuu (Buddha Dhammassaami)
> The asura chief Raahu (Buddha Naarada)
> The braahma.na Ca`nkii (Buddha Ra.msiimunii)
> The maa.nava Subha (Buddha Devadeva)
> The braahma.na Todeyya (Buddha Dhammissara)
> The elephant Naa.laagiirii (Buddha Tissa)
> The elephant Paalileyyaka (Buddha Suma`ngala)

1884
From: Ngawang Dorje <rahula_80@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon May 29, 2006 9:51 am 
Subject: Vaitulyakas

Hi


   I read from a book:

The Kathavatthu records how the Vaitulyakas had made a provision that "on
account of a particular intention, the saint could resort to sexual-intercourse"

   Kathavatthu, XXIII.219.1, p.535 - ekaabhippaayena methuno dhammo
patisevitabbo

   Can anyone verify this?Who are the Vaitulyakas?

   Thanks,
   Rahula




---------------------------------
Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone.  Get Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1885
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 30, 2006 5:13 am 
Subject: Re: Vaitulyakas  

There is an enormous scholarly literature on the Kv.  Some of the
ancient schools can be identified, others rely on inferences from the
(much later) commentary, and some are completely mysterious or lost to
history.

A personal favourite would be the "Gokulikas" who maintained that "all
is just a heap of hot ashes".

If you have access to a major university library, you can start
working through the western scholarly articles on the Kv; however, if
you're at a more typical monastery, you probably won't be able to find
any information on the Kv besides the commentary.  Many major
textbooks on the history of early Buddhism attempt to draw up
pseudo-historical tables as to how these schools were inter-related
--but this sort of thing is highly conjectural.

E.M.

1886
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue May 30, 2006 6:01 am 
Subject: Re: Ten Bodhisattas

Dear Jim,

> I have a book published by PTS in 1975 entitled _The Birth-Stories of
> the
> Ten Bodhisattas and the Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa_  translated and
> edited
> by H. Saddhatissa. Checking against the ten names of the ten future
> Sammaa-sambuddhas in the table of contents, I see that they all match
> your
> list of ten except no. 8 which has Narasiiha instead of your
> Dhammissara.

Thanks for this. A Thai monk has also directed me to the
Anaagatava.msa, which so far seems to be the earliest extant
source of this conception.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

1887
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue May 30, 2006 10:59 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Ten Bodhisattas  

A new edition of the Anaagatava.msa came out a couple of years
ago in BKK. I have a copy if you need any information from it.
You can purchase one at Sun Nangsue Chula as well. This has
been a very significant text, esp. for the Chakri dynasty and
there have been several Thai editions. Also, there is a copy
of the Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa in the old faculty of arts
library at Chula on the second floor. This is the PTS one, I
do not think there was ever a Thai edition or translation.
However, Bhumipala Press from Wat Sraket may have produced one
(but I doubt it and they are done producing editions of
anything it seems now).
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:01:57 +0700
>From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Re: Ten Bodhisattas
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Dear Jim,
>
>> I have a book published by PTS in 1975 entitled _The
Birth-Stories of
>> the
>> Ten Bodhisattas and the Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa_
translated and
>> edited
>> by H. Saddhatissa. Checking against the ten names of the

1888
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue May 30, 2006 8:30 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Ten Bodhisattas  

Dear Ven. Dhammanando,

I've since read several of the 49 pages of H. Saddatissa's interesting
introduction and can report a bit more. His guess is that the
Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa (DBK) belongs to the late 14th cent. and that the
idea of the ten bodhisattas came from either South India or Thailand or both
(19ff). His edition is based on 5 MSS (presumably all in Sinhalese script)
and an earlier printed edition and translation in Sinhalese. On page 20 he
says that King "Srii Suuryava.msa Raama who ascended the throne of Sukhothai
in 1347 AD was aware of the ten bodhisattas as they are listed in one of his
inscriptions (which can be read in BEFEO XVII 1917, No. 2, p. 30f).

Minayeff in the introduction to his edition of the Anaagatava.msa describes
a Burmese MS of DBK held at the Shwe Downg library in Prome (JPTS 1886 pp.
39-40). The work was requested (yaacita) by a Dhammasenaapati. He also
mentions an incomplete Khmer script MS in the Bibliotheque Nationale at
Paris. On pages 3-4, Saddhatissa describes an unsuccessful search to obtain
an MS from Thailand and contacting the National Library in Bangkok with the
help of Ven. Khantipaalo. He thinks that an MS is more likely to be found in
the old Cambodian or Khom script.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Thanks for this. A Thai monk has also directed me to the
> Anaagatava.msa, which so far seems to be the earliest extant
> source of this conception.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dhammanando

1889
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 5:57 am 
Subject: E.M.'s website update (technical difficulties)  

I'm sorry to say that it will be a few days before my "renewed"
website can be seen at:

www.pali.pratyeka.org

Currently, this will simply yield an advertisement for the "host"
company.  To add to the confusion, the "new" page was posted, then
taken down, etc., in attempts to deal with technical issues caused by
having so many (Unicode) languages on one page.  We have fixed the
problem, and the new page should be up within a few days or a week.

Of interest on the new page is:
   (1) The discussion of Burmese pronunciation of Pali (rehearsed on this list)
   (2) Similar descriptions of Lao & Thai pronunciation of Pali (not
yet Khmer...)
   (3) The various charts of the commentaries and sub-commentaries
(Romanized Pali titles ... for beginners and linguists!)
   (4) The first of my supposed series of charts explaining Pali
systems of time & date (Burmese script only).
   (5) Miscellany!

E.M.

1890
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 4:20 pm 
Subject: Re: E.M.'s website update (technical difficulties)  

I look forward to the website. Let me know if I can provide a
link to it on the TLC website.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 16:57:09 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] E.M.'s website update (technical
difficulties)
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>I'm sorry to say that it will be a few days before my "renewed"
>website can be seen at:
>
>www.pali.pratyeka.org

1891
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 7:09 am 
Subject: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

I received the following "alert" from Mme. Filliozat.  I would be very
interested in finding the recordings --be they in Vientiane or Phnom
Penh.  Admittedly, I might not be interested enough to go to Paris or
Hanoi ...
----E.M.----

Concerning your considering a small Khom/Khmer
edition, with the Pali in Khom & Roman text, I remind
you that one recent Cambodian edition exists in EFEO
collection by Franois Bizot (who ignores completely
Pali!) he has just been the editor of the oral
Kaccayana grammar recited by a Cambodian master. It is
not a critical edition but the Kaccayana grammar as
practiced in Cambodia before 1975 when he recorded it
on a tape. It could be interesting for you, do not
miss it, you may consult it probably in EFEO centre in
Vientiane or order to Franois Bizot back to living in
Chiang Mai.

1892
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 11:56 am 
Subject: Re: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

I imagine the recordings are in Chiang Mai at the EFEO
library, but since F.Bizot spent much time in Paris in recent
years (now he is back in CM, it is a long story) then he may
have left them at the EFEO library there. I have only met him
a couple times, and never asked him about this subject. You
can go and ask him, but many EFEO members are back in Paris
right now for a big meeting (I think its on June 20th, but I
am not sure). I would also be interested in listening to them,
because they are probably related to the Saddavimala rituals
in which chanting from the Kaccayana was used for ritual
development of new fetuses at the time of death. He does offer
a description of these rituals in his 1996 EFEO publication
(with F.Lagirarde) on the Saddavimala (Purete...). The Mun
Kajjai (as its called in Laos and sometimes in Cambodia) was
often pulled apart and used for funerary/birth rituals. I plan
to chair a panel on this topic next year at the AAS meeting in
Boston. If I find out more, I will let you know.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:09:30 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Michel Lorrillard"
<lorrilla@loxinfo.co.th>
>
>I received the following "alert" from Mme. Filliozat.  I
would be very
>interested in finding the recordings --be they in Vientiane
or Phnom
>Penh.  Admittedly, I might not be interested enough to go to
Paris or
>Hanoi ...
>----E.M.----

1893
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 3:05 pm 
Subject: SV: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

<<he has just been the editor of the oral Kaccayana grammar recited by a
Cambodian master. It is not a critical edition but the Kaccayana grammar as
practiced in Cambodia before 1975 when he recorded it on a tape. It could be
interesting for you, do not miss it, you may consult it probably in EFEO
centre in Vientiane or order to Franois Bizot back to living in Chiang
Mai>>

Whatever the merit of this recording it would be interesting to get hold of
it for the sake of getting an idea of the level of traditional Pali
scholarship in Cambodia before the "dluge" and its hateful destruction.

Ole Pind

1894
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 2:55 pm 
Subject: SV: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

>>The Mun Kajjai (as its called in Laos and sometimes in Cambodia) was often
pulled apart and used for funerary/birth rituals. I plan to chair a panel on
this topic next year at the AAS meeting in Boston. If I find out more, I
will let you know<<

I am interested in anything that pertains to this text, so I would be very
pleased if you would keep me informed about ongoing research. Years ago I
wrote a small article included in Bizot's edition and translation of
Saddavimala. Unfortunately I am unable to read the original.

Ole Pind

1895
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 4:22 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

Thanks for the tip. I hope to see that edition when it comes out.
Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:05:39 +0200
>From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk>
>Subject: SV: [palistudy] Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
><<he has just been the editor of the oral Kaccayana grammar
recited by a
>Cambodian master. It is not a critical edition but the
Kaccayana grammar as
>practiced in Cambodia before 1975 when he recorded it on a
tape. It could be
>interesting for you, do not miss it, you may consult it
probably in EFEO
>centre in Vientiane or order to Franois Bizot back to living
in Chiang
>Mai>>
>

1896
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Mon Jun 5, 2006 4:27 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

I read your piece in that book. The connection between the
Mulasarvastivadins and the Kaccayana tradition of SEA is
fascinating. I was esp. intrigued by your reference to the
"herons" baka) and the water (udaka) and the strange
traversals of ritual and grammar inspired by mispronunciation
in connection to Chapata's text.
I will send you an early draft of my work on this subject soon.
Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:55:00 +0200
>From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk>
>Subject: SV: [palistudy] Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>>>The Mun Kajjai (as its called in Laos and sometimes in
Cambodia) was often
>pulled apart and used for funerary/birth rituals. I plan to
chair a panel on
>this topic next year at the AAS meeting in Boston. If I find
out more, I
>will let you know<<
>

1897
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:13 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

Re: Ole's article:

> The connection between the
> Mulasarvastivadins and the Kaccayana tradition of SEA is
> fascinating.

This would be very interesting to me, and also to Lorrillard at the
EFEO (he's interested in the presence of Sarvastivadins and other Sk.
schools prior to and coeval with Theravada in mainland S.E.A.).  Could
someone mention the title or publication data of the _festrscrift_
this article was published in?  I assume we're not talking about
Bizot's _Purit des Mots..._, but some other work that he edited?

> I will send you an early draft of my work on this subject soon.

Justin, I recall your article on A.P. & Foetus rituals quite well, but
I do not recall any special discussion of Kacc. or grammatical texts
in connection with the rituals (perhaps it was an earlier draft, in
which the focus was still on A.P. & cosmology?).

As I mentioned to you long ago, there is a Professor F.G. at UofT
largely specialized in things Tibetan, whose thesis (etc.) was on the
embryo in Buddhism; she would likely have interesting comparisons to
draw with Sk. & Tibetan sources.  Her list of past publications is to
be found here:
    http://individual.utoronto.ca/garrett/garrett.html

Several months ago I received one very flattering description of her
as a kind and engaged professor --previous to that I had only heard
bad reivews, but from admittedly dour sources (viz., from those who
are inclined to speak ill by default).

I'm sure she's quite isolated in Toronto, and would probably be happy
to hear from you.  The UofT's dept. of religious studies is, in
Warder's idiom, "A department of Christianity masqerading as a
department of comparative religion."

E.M.

1898
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:44 am 
Subject: Re: E.M.'s website update (technical difficulties)  

Hi Justin,

   You can now provide a direct link from your website to:

   http://pali.pratyeka.org

   The only caveat is that "www.pali.pratyeka.org" currently *doesn't*
work.  In other words, you must omit the "www" and directly enter
"pali.pratyeka.org" to get there.  I'm going to try to fix this in the
future, to allow for more human error, etc.

   The page now looks perfect in Mozilla Firefox (on windows) and is
normally pretty good on MS internet explorer ... unless it displays in
Chinese.

E.M.

1899
From: Daniel <daniell@pob.huji.ac.il> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 9:26 am 
Subject: Jiiva - soul?

Hi all,

do you think it would be correct to translate "jiiva" as soul?

Thank you, Daniel

1900
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 12:32 pm 
Subject: Re: E.M.'s website update (technical difficulties)  

Thanks for the link.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:44:50 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] E.M.'s website update (technical
difficulties)
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Justin,
>
>  You can now provide a direct link from your website to:
>
>  http://pali.pratyeka.org
>

1901
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Jun 6, 2006 12:38 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?  

It is not in a festschrift, I am referring to the "Purete..."
one on the Saddavimala. Bizot also writes about possible
Northern Indian connections in earlier publications in the
mid-1970s. None are conclusive of course, but several
intriguing possibilities. Most of ritual use of the Mun Kajjai
is in Cambodia. There was not work on this ritual (in terms of
mss.) in Laos.

I have written some more on this subject. It isn't published
yet, it was for a talk at the University of Chicago in 2004.
It won't be ready for distribution for a few months.

Thanks for the reference to the UofT scholar.

Best,
jm


---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 12:13:03 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: SV: [palistudy] Bizot's Kaccayana recordings?
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Re: Ole's article:
>
>> The connection between the
>> Mulasarvastivadins and the Kaccayana tradition of SEA is
>> fascinating.
>

1902
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 12:00 am 
Subject: My Pali website finally works..  

After a few "false starts", my Pali website finally works:

http://www.pali.pratyeka.org/

Sorry about the confusion...

The page reads correctly under "Firefox" in MS-Windows, and is about
95% correctly displayed in "internet explorer" ... unless the latter
decides to display the file as Chinese.

E.M.

1903
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 12:14 am 
Subject: Ole Pind's article on Kaccayana in Bizot's _Saddavimala_...
 

Justin & Ole,

> It is not in a festschrift, I am referring to the "Purete..."
> one on the Saddavimala.

Thank you --I found the text and the article, and read it immediately.

It seems that Ole Pind is the only scholar on earth whom I agree with
on some fundamental questions about Kaccyana, e.g., that it is "the
work of many hands" (not a single author) and has clear signs that it
has been changed in form and content over time (viz., not simultaneous
authorship).  This seems so abundantly obvious to me, that I rather
shudder at the thought of extending my "introduction" even further to
argue the point in detail, but Vidyabhusana, etc., seem to ignore
these very obvious indications, e.g., the change in chapter divisions,
organization, etc., being something parallel to the changes to the Th.
Vinaya.  Indeed, the type of changes observed in Pali "layered" texts
(be it Kacc. or Vinaya) have some common features across genres.

One step that has not been taken (to my knowledge?) in Kacc. is to
find a few examples where the Vutti mis-interprets the Sutta; this has
been fundamental in proving that the layers of the Vinaya are
separated by a significant passage of time.  I rather "assume" that I
will find evidence of this kind as I continue to work on Kacc.

I continue to be delighted by Wijesekera's observations on Kaccayana
(in his _Syntax..._); I still have not had time to scan Tha Do Oung's
work.

E.M.

1904
From: "abhidhammika" <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Wed Jun 7, 2006 10:42 am 
Subject: Re: Jiiva - soul?

Dear Daniel and all

How are you?

Daniel asked:

"do you think it would be correct to translate "jiiva" as soul?"

If you can give the definition(s)of soul, I will be able to answer
your question?

I will take care of the definition(s) of jiiva.

Suan Lu Zaw


www.bodhiology.org

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Daniel <daniell@...> wrote:

do you think it would be correct to translate "jiiva" as soul?

Thank you, Daniel

1905
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 1:45 am 
Subject: Re: My Pali website finally works..  

I just read through this briefly and am very happy that EM has
put this together. It is a very helpful introduction to
phonology and orthography (and the organization on the canon
and commentary). Thank you for all of your hardwork. You have
done the field a great service. I wish I had has this intro.
when I was first trying to read different Pali in different
scripts. Can I provide a link to this page on the tlc.ucr.edu
website?
Best and thanks again,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:00:21 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] My Pali website finally works..
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>After a few "false starts", my Pali website finally works:
>
>http://www.pali.pratyeka.org/
>
>Sorry about the confusion...
>
>The page reads correctly under "Firefox" in MS-Windows, and
is about
>95% correctly displayed in "internet explorer" ... unless the
latter
>decides to display the file as Chinese.
>
>E.M.
>

1906
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Thu Jun 8, 2006 2:32 am 
Subject: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

Dear Friends,

Just an update, that the Digital Pali Reader is up in a somewhat new
form, and now on sourceforge.net  It now includes the entire Thai
Tipitaka in Roman letters along with the atthakatha, and fairly
efficient means of searching the PED online.  The home page is here:

http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/digitalpali/

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1907
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 9, 2006 7:09 am 
Subject: Re: My Pali website finally works..  

Hi Justin,

> Can I provide a link to this page on the tlc.ucr.edu
> website?

By all means please do so; links, like praise, will be accepted uncritically.

I'm going to get "set up" to revise the page on a more continual
basis.  There are currently typographical errors, etc., that were
caused by the hurry and technical difficulty of producing the thing
... and this will be more easily resolved in future.

Presuming technical issues become lesser rather than greater.

E.M.

1908
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:42 am 
Subject: Re: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

Bhante,

I'm about to test the claim that this is a "cross platform"
application, viz., on my Mac.

Re:

> ... the entire Thai
> Tipitaka in Roman letters along with the atthakatha...

I currently do not have any access to the Atthakatha (digital or
otherwise) so this will be of enormous utility to me --if I can get it
to work.

E.M.

1909
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:18 pm 
Subject: Re: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

Dear Eisel,

I have reports from two separate people that it does indeed work on a
Mac, provided you are using Firefox, and provided you unzip the files to
the correct location.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo (Phra Noah)
Wat Phradhatu Sri Chom Tong Vv.
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/

Eisel Mazard wrote:
> Bhante,
>
> I'm about to test the claim that this is a "cross platform"
> application, viz., on my Mac.
>
> Re:
>
>
>> ... the entire Thai
>> Tipitaka in Roman letters along with the atthakatha...
>>
>
> I currently do not have any access to the Atthakatha (digital or
> otherwise) so this will be of enormous utility to me --if I can get it
> to work.
>
> E.M.
>

1910
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:22 am 
Subject: Praise for Ole Pind's _Survey_ of Pali Grammatica
 

I am both very pleased and very relieved to (at last) read Dr. Pind's
article on Pali grammarians from the Japanese Journal of Buddhist
studies.

I would strongly urge Dr. Bedell to seek out a copy of the article as
well --at the very least it shows how much more progress can be made
in understanding the nature (and history) of Kacc. when we begin by
treating the Sutta and the Vutti "layers" as two separate texts --from
two or more periods of time.

I say that I am relieved as Dr. Pind broaches many issues that I was
aware of but *not* looking forward to writing footnotes about _ex
nihilo_ (e.g., the issue of the missing retroflex ".l", the
inconsistent use of certain explanatory verbs in the Vutti to
different chapters, etc.).

Pind's article really provides a compendium of important observations
on Kaccayana --it is really infinitely better than anything written
before.

One of the few oddities in Kacc. that I would draw more attention to
(i.e., that I wouild emphasise rather more than Pind's article does)
is Kacc.'s use of "Okaasa" where any/every grammarian (in later Pali
or Sanskrit) would use a more logical and lingual term.  _Okaasa_ is,
in many ways, the wrong word to use, and seems to indicate that the
authors of Kacc did not know the "proper" terms being used for this in
the 7th & 8th centuries; so instead we get a highly
cosmological/metaphysical word that means "empty space" being used to
explain the (definitely) non-empty space in a sentence.

Again, many thans to Dr. Pind,

I would not have (and do not intend to) carried out the comparative
reading of MMD that provides many of his interesting comments on the
comparative development/devolution of Kacc-v,

E.M

1911
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:40 pm 
Subject: okaasa  

As Eisel mentions okaasa is a somewhat peculiar technical term used in
Kaccaayana's Pali grammar to denote the locative. I did not go into great
detail with the origin of the term. However, I mention in my Survey one of
the possible sources. In fact, the use of okaasa in the canon to denote
place, location etc. is well attested. Quite a few examples are mentioned in
A Critical Pali Dictionary sub voce okaasa (I cannot remember if I wrote the
entry myself). This usage is peculiar to the canon and the a.t.thakathas,
and as I assume its use in Kacc instead of the expected bhumma that is well
known from the commentarial lit. is motivated by a widespread tendency to
adopt a grammatical case terminology that has canonical antecedents.

Regards,
Ole Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1912
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:58 pm 
Subject: Re: okaasa  

Dr. Pind,

> In fact, the use of okaasa in the canon to denote
> place, location etc. is well attested.

My point is not at all that Okaasa is an innovation (in Kacc.), but
the contrary: it is a peculiar usage (of a very old term, found in the
canon and before) that would seem to indicate unfamiliarity with
whatever the source was of the more logical terms used in the
Commentaries and both earlier and later grammars.

I think you'll agree that its grammatical use is or only half-logical.
  Okaasa has more in common (semantically) with the english concept of
"extension" than "space", and is explicity relative to the viewer, and
empty; thus, cosmologically, it is used in the sense that we say
"outer space", viz., a completely empty void in/above the sky.

> ... I assume its use in Kacc instead of the expected bhumma that is well
> known from the commentarial lit. is motivated by a widespread tendency to
> adopt a grammatical case terminology that has canonical antecedents.

Do you feel that the author of Kacc-s read and knew the Commentaries,
and intentionally chose to use "more canonical" language (in this
instance, or in general)?

In either case, thank you again for your comments.

E.M.

1913
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:22 am 
Subject: Re: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

The DPR does generally work under Mac OS with Firefox 1.5 (but not
even a closely related browser, such as Camino or Seamonkey)
--however, the "offline" PTS dictionary does not work --likely because
there is no documentation indicating where in the "tree" it presumes
its relative links should find the folder.

I have been able to create my own HTML menu for the PTS dictionary
(offline) by re-habilitating some of the javascript into link-files.
I suppose I could do something similar with the huge bulk of the
commentaries ...

Several of the search functions don't seem to work --but there are
many other methods to achieve this sort of thing once you have the
data on disk, so it doesn't much matter.

The fundamental feature of looking up text by kappo & ka.n.do
certainly does work --and I'm sure this is the main attraction.

In any case, it is a very impressive beginning to the project.

If you could bring a professional Java programmer into the team, you
could soon have a full-scale "G.U.I." on the desktop, etc.

May I ask what the source is of the raw text used as data for the
Commentaries?  I presume this is from one of the Thai digitization
projects similar to "BUDSIR"?

E.M.

1914
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:13 pm 
Subject: Re: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

Dear Eisel,

Eisel Mazard wrote:
> The DPR does generally work under Mac OS with Firefox 1.5 (but not
> even a closely related browser, such as Camino or Seamonkey)
> --however, the "offline" PTS dictionary does not work --likely because
> there is no documentation indicating where in the "tree" it presumes
> its relative links should find the folder.
>
Your guess is off the mark... the PTS dictionaries actually do work, and
it has nothing to do with documentation.  Just unzip the two files in
the same directory and they will create the proper directories
themselves.  Don't put any folder inside of another folder yourself, it
will do it for you.  The release notes on sourceforge (the documentation
you mentioned as not existing) cover this, I think.
> May I ask what the source is of the raw text used as data for the
> Commentaries?  I presume this is from one of the Thai digitization
> projects similar to "BUDSIR"?
>
>
I am not at liberty to say :)  The DPR contains both the Burmese fifth
council edition and (optionally) the Syaamara.t.tha edition.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

1915
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:14 am 
Subject: Re: okaasa (...further)  

What seems to me strage about the issue, on reflection, is Kacc.
1-1-9, viz. that the author's dispositions is apparently to accept
others' grammatical terms (a verse widely interpreted to mean current
Sk. terminology of his day) --not to adhere to a canonical standard.

> Do you feel that the author of Kacc-s read and knew the Commentaries,
> and intentionally chose to use "more canonical" language (in this
> instance, or in general)?

E.M.

1916
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:07 am 
Subject: SV: okaasa (...further)  

The use of okaasa to denote the locative is indeed odd, and it is difficult
to explain what motivated its introduction, unless we assume that it is a
backformation from Sanskrit avakaa.sa, which is used in grammatical lit. to
denote a domain of application of a rule. But as I mentioned, the semantics
are canonical. The commentarial tradition made use of a peculiar case
terminology, e.g. bhumma to denote the locative, which is not reflected in
Kacc. This might indicate that the author(s) did not know the commentaries
or just decided to follow the Kaatantra, but not in this particular case,
which is odd. On the other hand, the description of sandhi in Kacc and
Kacc-v appears to reflect what is found in the ct.s. However, Kacc takes the
commentarial padasandhikaaras to be aagamas (sic!).

OP

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 13. juni 2006 09:15
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] okaasa (...further)

What seems to me strage about the issue, on reflection, is Kacc.
1-1-9, viz. that the author's dispositions is apparently to accept others'
grammatical terms (a verse widely interpreted to mean current Sk.
terminology of his day) --not to adhere to a canonical standard.

> Do you feel that the author of Kacc-s read and knew the Commentaries,
> and intentionally chose to use "more canonical" language (in this
> instance, or in general)?

E.M.

1917
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:59 am 
Subject: Re: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

> I am not at liberty to say :)  The DPR contains both the Burmese fifth
> council edition and (optionally) the Syaamara.t.tha edition.

Thanks again, but it's hard to tell from a user perspective when
you're looking at Thai or Burmese material... and I don't think
there's a key to the abbreviations used in the footnotes, etc. --all
things that an intelligent user can figure out, I'm sure.

Somehow my arrangement of the PTS folder is not quite right ... oh
well.  It's a lot of fun anyway, and I hope that you get more
enjoyment from it in the future.

E.M.

1918
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:48 am 
Subject: SV: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

Dear Yuttadhammo,

I have in vain tried to download the Digital Pali Reader. I wonder why. Your
help will be much appreciated.

Regards,
Ole Pind

1919
From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@sirimangalo.org> 
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:17 am 
Subject: Re: SV: Digital Pali Reader 2.3.2  

Dear Ole, Eisel, all,

Here's a step-by-step guide to downloading and installing the DPR in its
current form.  First of all, the latest "release" does not contain the
local dictionary files.  This is done only for cosmetic purposes, as you
can still download the local dictionaries from the previous release.
Here's how to get it all:

1) First, get the main script file in its latest release:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/digitalpali/DPR_2.3.3.zip?download

Put it in a safe place, perhaps on your desktop.  This archive contains
the main javascript/html shell, along with the sutta and vinaya pitakas
+ their commentaries from the Burmese Fifth council edition.  Don't
unzip it yet, it'll just get confusing.

2) Next, download the Thai Tipitaka plugin:

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/digitalpali/DPR_ThaiPali_2.3.3.zip?download

Put it in the same safe place as the first file.  This file contains a
unicode roman version of the standard Thai tipitaka. Don't unzip it yet
either.

3) Finally, get the local dictionary files from the older release (2.3.2):

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/digitalpali/DPR_LocalDict_2.3.2.zip?downloa
d

Put it in the same same place as the other two files.  This file
contains the complete PED and Dictionary of Pali Proper Names.  Don't
unzip it yet.

4) Unzip the files in this order to the same directory (say "yes" if it
asks to overwrite the file "DPR/js/remotecheck.js"):

     a) DPR_2.3.3.zip
     b) DPR_ThaiPali_2.3.3.zip
     c) DPR_LocalDict_2.3.2.zip

If you have done this correctly, you should end up with four directories
in the same place, as follows:

     /DPR/
     /PED/
     /DPPN/

Each of the above directories will have sub-directories, that is not so
important to start with.

5) To start the reader, you have to go into the DPR directory and open
index.html (I forgot to put a link to it outside of the directory in
this release).

Once you have it up and running, click on the little button with a
question mark to read the help file.  To open the Thai tipitaka, click
on the appropriate button, marked "T".  All of the buttons have
tooltips, just hover the mouse over the button to read the description
of what the button does.

Hope that helps.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo (Phra Noah)
Wat Phradhatu Sri Chom Tong Vv.
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/


Ole Holten Pind wrote:
> Dear Yuttadhammo,
>
> I have in vain tried to download the Digital Pali Reader. I wonder why. Your
> help will be much appreciated.
>
> Regards,
> Ole Pind
>

1920
From: ashinpan@gmail.com 
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:05 pm 
Subject: Inquiry on the Survey of Pali Grammatica

Dear Ole
>


Can you point me out the exact reference  of the Journal which includes your
article on Pali Grammar? From Eisel's observations, I come to understand
that you are claiming Kacc is the work of many hands. So I feel interested
very much.

In fact, it has been a long-held notion in Burma. There is even a Pali verse
naming the separate authors of Sutta, Vutti, and Udaahara.na (examples)
respectively. (I have tried to find it again in the Burmese sources I have
but I haven't succeeded on such a short-notice) However, some later Burmese
scholars like Janakaabhiva.msa maintain that Vutti and Udaahara.na must come
from the same hand. (Janakaabhiva.msa is the original author of "Abhidhamma
in Daily Life", translated into English by U Ko Lay)

with metta

Ven. Pandita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1921
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:33 am 
Subject: Re: Inquiry on the Survey of Pali Grammatica  

Bhante Ashin Pandita,

> In fact, it has been a long-held notion in Burma. There is even a Pali verse
> naming the separate authors of Sutta, Vutti, and Udaahara.na (examples)
> respectively.

I agree that this is a very important passage --in my introduction to
Kacc. I point out that this is the *only* historical information that
we have about the authorship of the book.  Unfortunately, many
scholars ignore this point (following Vidyabhusana's example) and
pretend that the whole book was written by one person, at one time, so
that they can more easily assign a date to the whole book.

Vidyabhusana doesn't even have a reason (or an argument) as to why the
book would be by just one author (it is a layered text, and, as Dr.
Pind agrees, there is enough "mis-understanding" separating the layers
to indicate that a significant period of time passed between the sutta
& vutti being authored) --but Vidyabhusana wanted to make a
"sensation" by drawing attention to Mason's earlier finding that a few
kings and toponyms are named in the course of the Vutti.  These are
only important "anachronisms" if we assume (or: pretend) that the
Vutti and the Sutta are by the same author (as Vidyabhusana insists).

The whole thing seems absurd to me --but, very recently, I received
e-mails from Dr. Bedell supporting Vidyabhusana's position.  This sort
of judgement must rely either on intimate knowledge of the particular
text, or broad awareness in patterns of authorship among layered texts
& commentaries in the genre; given this perspective, Vidyabhusana's
position seems absurd.

However, "that was 100 years ago".  Very little has been written about
Kacc. since then; and Dr. Pind's article is a major step in the right
direction.

E.M.

1922
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:43 am 
Subject: Re: okaasa (...further)  

Good!  We are in complete agreement: the usage of "okaasa" is rather
odd, and there is no apparent explanation for it!

> ... unless we assume that it is a
> backformation from Sanskrit avakaa.sa...

That would certainly be more in the spirit of Kacc. verse 1-1-9,
however, we would then have to come up with a fairly convoluted
explanation of how the semantics of the rules themselves might have
changed over time ... I would tend instead to simply leave "okaasa" on
the list of features in Kacc. that seem "Wierd and ancient" to me.

I do not mean to suggest that everything "wierd" must necessarily be
"ancient".  To contrast another example, Dr. Pind's article points out
that the issue of the retroflex ".l" could indicate that Kacc. was
written at a geographically removed place (rather than an historically
removed date).  It could be that other oddities just reflect the
peculiarities of Pali in the particular isolated valley (in the
Himalayas?) where it was composed.

As with "okaasa" and many other oddities, I do not take the retroflex
".l" as ready proof for any pre-conceived theory ... it simply adds to
my list of "the wierd and the ancient" in Kacc.

E.M.

1923
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:52 am 
Subject: SV: Inquiry on the Survey of Pali Grammatica  

<The whole thing seems absurd to me --but, very recently, I received e-mails
from Dr. Bedell supporting Vidyabhusana's position.  This sort of judgement
must rely either on intimate knowledge of the particular text, or broad
awareness in patterns of authorship among layered texts & commentaries in
the genre; given this perspective, Vidyabhusana's position seems absurd>

Yes, indeed. For instance, there are many many interpolations from various
sources in the vutti. It is possible to trace quite a few of them. The sutta
is partly based Kaatantra, not the early version, but the heavily inflated
one that was commented upon by Durgasimha. Quite a few of the suttas of
Kaatantra are metrical i.e. they are s.lokapaadas introduced from metrical
annotations. This origin marks some of the suttas of Kacc. In addition,
there are many suttas that were modelled on Paa.nini's grammar. One was
transmitted in a faulty form viz. Kacc 565 pattavacane alamatthesu ca which
is based upon Paa.n III 4:66 paryaaptivacane.su alamarthe.su. pattavacane is
incomprehensible, one would expect pariyattivacane as the commentators
noticed.

OP

1924
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:37 am 
Subject: Re: Inquiry on the Survey of Pali Grammatica  

I vaguely recall that even Senart discussed this issue in Kacc 565 (as
you mention) --although even the verse number may be different in his
treatment.  I'll check into it tomorrow.  Senart's work has many
faults, but he did check possible sources of quotations from other
grammars, etc.

You raise a more interesting question in general, viz., is any part of
Kacc. "truly metrical" or was any section of the text composed in
verse at some prior stage?  [Obviously I'm excluding the "introductory
stanzas / proems" from this question.]  I had the impression that
there were a few "broken verses" in the text ... I can't even remember
when I last thought about this issue, but perhaps it was concerning a
couple of the "corrupted" verses you mention as taken from the
Kaatantra into the Vutti?

I should also state plainly that I know *nothing* about the Kaatantra.

E.M.

1925
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:35 pm 
Subject: an article by Ole Pind has been uploaded  

Dear Members,

Earlier today, Ole sent me an article he'd written more than ten years ago.
He has given me permission to upload it to the group's files section so that
other interested members may download and read the article also. The url is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/files/O.H.%20Pind/survey.doc

The title of the article is:

Pali Grammar and Grammarians from Buddhaghosa to Vajirabuddhi. A Survey.

The font encoding is Gandhari unicode. The article can still be read without
the font  being installed but question marks will appear instead of the
special Pali characters.

On another note: I received my parcel of Pali grammar books from Myanmar on
Thursday. I will have more to say on this later...

Best wishes,
Jim

1926
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:08 am 
Subject: Re: an article by Ole Pind has been uploaded  

I would just note that another list-member has already requested the
publication details: although it is very generous for Dr. Pind to
provide the article (for free!) we should still provide citations to
the published source (if/when we quote it in our own published
work...).

If anyone on-list has access to "J-Stor" or other computer catalogues,
perhaps they could quote the appropriate citation?

I'm not even sure what the standard (romanized) acronym is for the
Japanese Journal of Buddhist Studies, etc.

Good luck with the Burmese editions, Jim.  I've been going through
this Burmese edition of Kaccayana with a fine-toothed comb; it is not
without errors, but they have provided a real service to the reader by
putting onomatopoeia in bold-face.

E.M.

1927
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:03 am 
Subject: Re: an article by Ole Pind has been uploaded  

According to my records, the reference to this important
article is:

Bukkyo Kenkyu XXVI (1997): 23-89.


Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:08:24 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] an article by Ole Pind has been
uploaded
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>I would just note that another list-member has already
requested the
>publication details: although it is very generous for Dr. Pind to
>provide the article (for free!) we should still provide
citations to
>the published source (if/when we quote it in our own published
>work...).
>

1928
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:03 pm 
Subject: Re: an article by Ole Pind has been uploaded  

Justin: thanks very much.

E.M.

1929
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:58 am 
Subject: Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)  

In the section in Dr. Pind's article concerning canonical quotations
(in Kacc.-v) there are several statistics and references to identified
and un-identified quotations.

Is this a reference to work previously done by Franke (?) or someone
else?  There isn't a footnote indicating the source --so I surmise
that Dr. Pind himself "traced" and "counted" the various quotations.

One reason I ask is that *none* of the printed editions I've included
in my survey attempt to trace/cite the sources of Kacc.'s quotations
from the canon ... so far, I have been identifying them "piecemeal" by
computer search (and, as Dr. Pind notes, many of them are from obvious
sources such as the Dhammapada).

My special concern in my own work is this: none of the editions I have
indicate examples very clearly (with the partial exception of
Vidyabhusana's work) so, when I encounter a non-canonical quote (or a
quotation from a non-extant text) I may mis-interpret it as something
other than an example.  This could only happen in rare instances, but
because pali doesn't use colons & quotation marks, one can sometimes
mis-interpret a single-word (or short phrase) [that is in fact being
quoted as an example] *as if* it were meant to be part of the main
sentence [rather than a quotation].

In any case, if this was part of Franke's earlier work (or any earlier
work), I should seek out a copy of the earlier work in question.

E.M.

1930
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:10 am 
Subject: SV: Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)

<<There isn't a footnote indicating the source --so I surmise that Dr. Pind
himself "traced" and "counted" the various quotations>>

Yes. My forthcoming Kacc and Kacc-v edition includes references to PTS
editions for the quotations as well as references for the examples, provided
they are instantiated in the canon and later lit. Sometimes they are not
e.g. the Sanskritism Vaasi.t.tha as opposed to Pali Vaase.t.tha. The
footnotes of the Burmese edition of Kacc-v includes references to the
Burmese edition of the canon for the quotations and the examples. Sometimes
they are incorrect.

O.P.

1931
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:04 am 
Subject: Re: Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)

Hello Dr. Pind,

   Of my two Burmese editions (one being in Thai script...) both have the
common feature of constantly citing the Rupasiddhi --viz., showing where the
equivalent verse or phrase appears.  However, I do not beleive that either
of them make much of an attempt at citing canonical sources of quotations (
e.g., no footnote on some of the really obvious quotes from the K.N. and
Dhp).

   It may be that my memory is slightly exaggerating this --or it may be that
my 2005 Burmese edition of Kacc. is different from your (earlier?) edition
of Kacc. --at least in the footnotes.

   I do not recall that any of my Sinhalese sources try to name the source of
such quotatios ... however, several of them have the interesting habit of
trying to cite internal references within Kacc.-v, viz., where one verse or
example relates to another elsewhere in the book.  This is a contrast to the
Burmese, who only/always cite *other* grammars (esp. Rup.).

   I would not be surprised if this were more thoroughly treated in (e.g.) an
edition of the MMD (= "The Nyasa") ... but if your source is the Burmese
edition of Kacc.-v, I shall duly note the fact.

E.M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1932
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:59 am 
Subject: SV: Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)

My Burmese editions are from 1980 and 1983. Both of them cite the
Saddaniiti, occasionally the Nyaasa and Ruupasiddhi, and identify canonical
quotations and terms. They are excellent specimens of traditional Burmese
scholarship. It may well be that more recent editions like yours differ on
that point.

OP

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 21. juni 2006 06:05
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)

Hello Dr. Pind,

   Of my two Burmese editions (one being in Thai script...) both have the
common feature of constantly citing the Rupasiddhi --viz., showing where the
equivalent verse or phrase appears.  However, I do not beleive that either
of them make much of an attempt at citing canonical sources of quotations (
e.g., no footnote on some of the really obvious quotes from the K.N. and
Dhp).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1933
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:48 am 
Subject: Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)  

Eisel,

In my previous message I didn't know what the "27" in "Khu 1|27|358" stood
for but now I do. It too is a page no. in Vol. I (the quote is found at the
beginning of verse 94 in the Dhammapada). So "Khu 1|27|358" should be read
as: Khuddakanikaaya, Vol. I, pp. 27 & 358.

Jim

> It's surprising that the footnote references to the quotes in your 2005
> edition are missing. I wonder if perhaps you're not understanding the
> referencing system used. The canonical references are to the Burmese
> Chatthasangayana edition. For example, footnote 3 on page 44 has: Khu
> 1|27|358 for "yassindriyaani" in sutta 14. I don't know what "27" refers
to
> but I found the word in Volume 1 of the Khuddakanikaaya by looking for the
> Burmese page reference of 358 in the margins of my Indian Devanagari
script
> edition. In terms of a PTS reference, the quote is found at Sn 516 which
> refers to verse 516 in the Suttanipaata, p. 95.

1934
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:56 am 
Subject: Re: Canonical quotations in Kacc. (Ole Pind's article)  

Dear Eisel,

The edition of Kacc I just received in the mail from Myanmar late last week
isn't clear on the date of printing as the front cover shows 2536 BE (1992)
but the inside title page has 2526 BE (1982). Both this edition and my other
one (1986) give the references to the quotes in the footnotes.

It's surprising that the footnote references to the quotes in your 2005
edition are missing. I wonder if perhaps you're not understanding the
referencing system used. The canonical references are to the Burmese
Chatthasangayana edition. For example, footnote 3 on page 44 has: Khu
1|27|358 for "yassindriyaani" in sutta 14. I don't know what "27" refers to
but I found the word in Volume 1 of the Khuddakanikaaya by looking for the
Burmese page reference of 358 in the margins of my Indian Devanagari script
edition. In terms of a PTS reference, the quote is found at Sn 516 which
refers to verse 516 in the Suttanipaata, p. 95.

Have you received the Burmese Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in the mail yet? If not,
you should be getting it very soon.

Best wishes,
Jim

1935
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:14 am 
Subject: Canonical quotations in Kacc. Burmese editions (correction)
 

No, I was mistaken on two counts: my Rangoon (2005) edition and my
Bangkok (Thai-script from Burmese sources) edition do attempt to trace
quotations.  These citations were "camoflauged" among the innumerable
cross-references to Saddaniti (etc.) --and as I didn't pay attention
to the latter, I missed the former.

The 2005 Burmese edition simply cites Dhammapada quotations by "Khu."
+ volume and page number (viz., with reference to the Burmese edition
of the K.N., I presume), whereas the Thai edition treats the Dhp as a
separate text, but with similarly edition-specific page numbers as
references.

In the case of the Thai edition, I was a bit further misled by the
inadequacy of the table of abbreviations, and a few other annoyances
(they may or may not be resolved in the Thai introduction --which I
cannot read); however, this error on my part is largely due to the
fact that if you aren't looking for something, it seems as if it isn't
there.

These references are less useful to me than might be supposed, viz., I
still have to conduct computer searches to find "chapter & verse"
references, as they use only edition-specific page references.  If I'm
incorrect about this, I have no guess as to what else the numbers
might indicate, e.g., even citations to the Dhammapada (in the Bangkok
edition) must use page numbers of some kind, as they do not make sense
if interpreted as chapter and verse.  In any case, I have become
relatively well-practiced in tracing canonical quotations within my
current technical constraints.  I should soon be able to scan the
commentaries in a similar manner, thanks to the DPR project as
mentioned.

I also rather wonder if they attempt to note unknown/untraced
quotations.  I'm sure I'll notice how this is handled in due course.

It is interesting that none of my other editions (be they Sinhalese or
European) attempt to trace quotations in the same way.  Obversely, the
Burmese do not attempt to provide the "internal references" from one
verse to another that several Sinhalese editions do provide.

It is also rather odd that the Burmese attempt to cite a specific
source for very common usages, e.g., naming a particular page/line of
the Vinaya for "noheta.m bhante" --a phrase that appears on myriad
occasions in every part of the canon.

> Have you received the Burmese Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in the mail yet? If not,
> you should be getting it very soon.

Yes, I live on hope and little else.

E.M.

1936
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:16 am 
Subject: Burmese Abhidhanappadipika edition arrived  

Thanks to Jim for this edition of the Abhidhanappadipika (henceforth
abbreviated as: ADP) --it arrived yesterday, with a fine stamp from
the Burmese censor (viz., "No offense").

The type is exceedingly clear, and in many ways the format is more
appealing than either of the Sinhalese editions that I own.

Sadly, the paper stock is "high acid" (similar to old newsprint) and
is already proving the truth that all is impermanent.  As with all the
editions that I've seen, they assume that you will have it bound for
yourself, and only wrap it in a simple paper exterior.  That being
said, in many ways this is an excellent and useful edition, such as
the obvious feature of putting the word being defined in bold face.
The typeface is actually slightly better than the Kacc. edition; I
find it difficult to imagine what kind of technology produces these
editions, but I noted that some errors that appear repeatedly in Kacc.
(2005) suggest to me the (mis-)use of a computer's "Find & Replace"
command.

I have not yet had time to compare the number of verses, etc., to the
two Sinhalese editions (the latter are, as I have mentioned,
mutually-inconsistent).

E.M.

1937
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:34 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese Abhidhanappadipika edition arrived  

Eisel,

I'm glad to hear you've received this book.

> Thanks to Jim for this edition of the Abhidhanappadipika (henceforth
> abbreviated as: ADP) --it arrived yesterday, with a fine stamp from
> the Burmese censor (viz., "No offense").

The standard abbreviation and reference for this work is Abh (used by CPD
and Cone) + gaathaa number. The two parcels I received were both stamped
with "NO OBJECTION". Unlike the parcels I've received from Thailand, Canada
Customs appears not to have opened these ones from Burma. This is probably
because one can see the books through a window at one end.

I appreciate your description of the book. You will have noted the useful
index to the words found in Abh and there are two other small Pali works
included at the back, i.e. Subodhaala"nkaara & Vuttodaya. Three of the five
books I received have hard covers (Kacc, Mogg, and the Niruttidiipanii). The
last one (Nir-diip?) is the largest, best-bounded, and most modern (composed
by the Ledi Sayadaw in 1903) with some 875 pages. I will post more details
on this and other books later on when I'm done with going over them. The two
other ones I received were Abh (2003) and Padaruupasiddhi-.tiikaa (1969).

Jim

1938
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:43 am 
Subject: Duroiselle's Grammar: New Edition, Introduction  

In recent days I have begun compiling a "new edition" of Duroiselle's
grammar (much to my own dismay).

Bhante Nyanatusita was enthusiastic to see the e-text revised.  My
current plans are limited in scope, and will likely produce a set of
resources similar to those I created for the (much shorter) work by
Narada (see:  www.pratyeka.org/narada).

I'm posting the introduction to the "4th edition" (viz., a revised
etext) with two intentions: (1) members of the list might want to
mention other works of the period that I could add to the review of
Duroiselle's milieu, and (2) if anyone (such as Nyanatusita?) has been
compiling a list of errata from the third edition, now would be the
time to mention it. --E.M.

PREFACE TO THE FOURTH EDITION
In 1906, Duroiselle was writing during a brief period of frenetic
English-language scholarship on the Pāli language in general, and its
classical grammar in particular.  The prelude to this period was the
research conducted by James D'Alwis in the 1850s and published in 1863
as An Introduction to Kachchayana's Grammar of the Pali Language.  I
found a copy of the latter (now very rare) work while looking through
the many editions that the Rhys-Davids family had bequeathed to the
university at Peradeniya, Sri Lanka (then the National University of
Ceylon).  These had all the marks of "ex libris" editions, ranging
from scholarly marginalia to sentimental personal effects folded into
the pages (and in some cases, apparently, these were not disturbed by
any readers before myself!). I recall in particular a clipping from a
newspaper that was pasted into one of these old (and rotting) tomes,
immortalizing a letter to a newspaper's editor that C.A.F. Rhys-Davids
had written, requesting a correction to her husband's obituary, as it
had mistakenly stated that he was survived by his son "the latter had
already died in the First World War.  We might say that the period of
scholarship set in motion by D'Alwis's pioneering work ended at about
the time of the First World War: the sequence of scholarly
publications on classical grammar comes to an end with H.T. DeSilva's
translation of the Bālāvatāro in 1915 (also the year of Duroiselle's
second edition), followed by a century of relative abeyance.

Everything about D'Alwis's book reflected the tone of frontier
scholarship in its day.  It is a patchwork of hastily made
observations, notes, and "hearsay" about texts that were, in some
cases, not even correctly identified.  However, it served its purpose
well: what had been an utterly obscure area of scholarship became the
subject of several articles in major journals (e.g., of Royal Asiatic
Society of Bengal) and a number of scholars were spurred into action.
The missionary Francis Mason had already been researching Pāli grammar
from his remote garret in Burma, and his (much better) study of the
subject followed in 1868.  The frenetic pace of the work was partly
inspired by the fear that whatever texts could not be secured in short
order might soon cease to be extant, and, in Pāli grammar in
particular, D'Alwis and Mason both thought that they were racing
against the clock to find some of the last Kaccāyana manuscripts, or
else the work would be lost forever.  Were these fears well founded?
They were founded in the observed brutality of European colonialism,
with its "Scorched Earth Policy", looting and burning of temples, and
indifferent destruction of all things "native" in the tides of
rebellion and repression across the Theravada colonies.  It is indeed
remarkable that a text as common as Kaccāyana could be considered
endangered in the 1860s, but the real danger to all "native" culture
and literature had been demonstrated all too often in living memory.
The abominable murder of thousands of Sinhalese, and the reduction of
their material culture to ashes, in the repression of the 1817-8 Uva
Rebellion, was doubtless recalled in the smaller Matale rebellion of
1848, quelled with the public execution of a Buddhist monk.  We need
not rehearse the timeline of the three Anglo-Burmese wars that defined
this period on the mainland; Buddhist texts were not only looted by
the British, but also burned in pyres to break the spirit of native
resistance.

Thus, in looking back on a period of extraordinary European scholarly
activity, we must be aware that it was also a period of
all-too-ordinary European brutality; the expectation of some of these
scholars was that they were studying a culture that would soon be
dead, viz., one that they had a hand in killing.  This is most
infamously the case with Max Müller, and was also true of
less-renowned F. Mason.  Although I would not attempt a complete list
of European language publications on Pāli grammar in the period, we
may name some of the major works as follows: D'Alwis (1863), Mason
(1868), Senart (1871), Gray (1883), Tha Do Oung (1899), Tilby (1899),
Vidyabhusana (1901), Duroiselle (1906), DeSilva (1915).  A large
number of journal articles and works of early lexicography are omitted
from this short list.

All of this suffices to say that the present work was not written in
the rarefied atmospohere of an obscure study, but, in fact, Duroiselle
wrote in the context of much more lively competition in this field
than there is at present.  As it has been my excruciating duty to
become familiar with much of the scholarship from that era, I should
here draw attention to several distinctive features of Duroiselle's
work:
• Duroiselle made extensive use of the Jātaka and post-canonical Pāli
literature in forming his idea of the "correct" use of the language.
Thus, e.g., he lists many  forms of declension and conjugation that
are not included in the tables of other authors.  This can be very
useful as a scholar's reference, but it can also be more confusing (or
even deceptive) for a beginner.
• Although most of Duroiselle's grammatical observations are based on
the close reading of classical sources, he took some very modern
liberties in assigning (English) grammatical terminology and in
changing the order of the cases.  The latter is especially confusing
as the traditional names of the Pāli cases are ordinal numbers (thus,
any change in their order throws the traditional terminology into
confusion).
• While making repeated reference to himself as an accomplished
Sanskritist, Duroiselle sometimes conflates Sanskrit and Pāli roots
(and rules), although, to give due credit, he also makes some keen
observations as to how the languages differ.  The confusion is likely
to be much greater for a beginner than an advanced student, as
Duroiselle seems to make references back and forth between Sanskritic
and Pāli concepts (and roots) with the assumption that his reader will
be able to readily distinguish and interpret them separately.

I have prepared this edition largely as a labour of re-formatting,
re-aligning, and introducing minor corrections to the third edition
(primarily at the behest of Bhante Nyanatusita).  In less than ten
years, encodings and digital file formats have changed so much that
this was indeed a necessary labour.   It may well be complained that
the tables, etc., are inadequate (certainly they are not beautiful!)
but I regret that the scope of my work was simply the correction of
thousands of tab-separated values that comprise these tables, and not
raising the standard of the text to a new level.  The fourth edition
is well suited to one purpose at least: the rapid search and reference
that a digital format allows.

Eisel Mazard, Vientiane, Lao P.D.R., 2006

1939
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:51 am 
Subject: Further Mention of DeSilva's _Bv_ translation  

I would just mention again the 1915 translation of the Baalaavataaro
that Bhante Nyanatusita and I managed to photograph in Kandy.

DeSilva & Oopatissa make some very good observations; I started using
this work only yesterday, when I was dis-satisfied that neither Senart
nor Vidyabhusana seemed to notice the fine distinction (in semantics)
between /asaruupa/ and /asava.n.na/ --but this was duly noted in
DeSilva's translation of the Bv (thus, giving me a source to quote
rather than just my own assertion that the two terms are not, in fact,
equivalent).

So far, this (obscure) work has made a very good impression upon me.
I was somewhat biased against it as it only treats the Bv, not the
"real" Kacc; but for anyone with a minute interest in how certain
verses are to be interpreted, it is a source very much worth
consulting.  I note that we only photographed Vol. I (1915), and I
would be very pleased if someone could check (via catalogue?) if Vol.
II exists; the authors themselves seem uncertain as to whether or not
they would manage to print the sequel in their introduction.

I described this edition at some length while I was in Sri Lanka, and
among other _prima facie_ remarkable features, it was "revised" by
F.L. Woodward, and all of the contributers were evidently Sinhalese or
in Sri Lanka at the time, but it was printed at the "Pegu Times Press"
apparently at Pegu, in Burma.

E.M.

1940
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:56 am 
Subject: SV: Further Mention of DeSilva's _Bv_ translation
oleholtenpind@mail.dk 

The use of the term /asaruupa/ "not of the same form" in the context of
phonology (sandhi) is non-standard. My own solution to the problem would be
to take it as a syncopated form equivalent to asaruupasara like Aggava.msa.
/asava.n.na/ is, of course, a well-known technical term of Indian grammar.

Ole Pind

1941
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:03 pm 
Subject: SV: Duroiselle's Grammar: New Edition, Introduction

<<D'Alwis and Mason both thought that they were racing against the clock to
find some of the last Kaccyana manuscripts, or else the work would be lost
forever.  Were these fears well founded?>>

Probably. Anyway, it is clear to me that the readings of Kaccaayana ms.s are
no more than ca. 300 years old, because Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa (16th c. C.E.)
quotes examples from the Kacc-v that have been altered absurdly.

OP.

1942
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:00 pm 
Subject: Re: Further Mention of DeSilva's _Bv_ translation
 

Hello Dr. Pind,

> /asava.n.na/ is, of course, a well-known technical term of Indian grammar.

Did the original sense of the grammatical term relate to "Varna" as a
categorical notion, rather than in the sense of colour/appearance?
Certainly, it is another instance of the Vedic notion of "5 Varnas"
(not 4).

[P.S. Yes, I am joking]

E.M.

1943
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:22 am 
Subject: (abhinava)cullanirutti  

Dear Pali freinds,

I wonder if any of you have ever come across a small Pali grammar
(abhinava)cuu.lanirutti? According to my information it was published in
Colombo, Ganthaaloka Press, 1896. 36 p. If it is still available, I would be
interested in getting a copy.

Regards,
Ole Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1944
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:25 am 
Subject: balavatara  

I have noticed that one Lionel Lee published the Baalaavataara in The
Or(ientalist). 1885-90 with an English translation. I have never seen it,
though.

Ole Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1945
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:28 am 
Subject: Re: balavatara  

Interesting ... I've never seen the name Lionel Lee before ... perhaps
I'll check the usual bibliographies.
E.M.

On 6/27/06, Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> wrote:
> I have noticed that one Lionel Lee published the Baalaavataara in The
> Or(ientalist). 1885-90 with an English translation. I have never seen it,
> though.
>
> Ole Pind
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1946
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:55 am 
Subject: Re: Duroiselle's Grammar: New Edition, Introduction

Dear Eisel,

Thanks for this introduction with many interesting historical observations,
etc..  If I have the time - I am quite busy with the BPS - then I could
compile a list of errata for the Duroiselle Grammar. I shall make a few
short comments to parts of your introduction.



   The frenetic pace of the work was partly
> inspired by the fear that whatever texts could not be secured in short
> order might soon cease to be extant, and, in Pli grammar in
> particular, D'Alwis and Mason both thought that they were racing
> against the clock to find some of the last Kaccyana manuscripts, or
> else the work would be lost forever.  Were these fears well founded?



Can you give quotations and/or references from D Alwis' or Mason's works in
which they explicitly or implicitly state these fears?

They were founded in the observed brutality of European colonialism,
> with its "Scorched Earth Policy", looting and burning of temples, and
> indifferent destruction of all things "native" in the tides of
> rebellion and repression across the Theravada colonies.  It is indeed
> remarkable that a text as common as Kaccyana could be considered
> endangered in the 1860s, but the real danger to all "native" culture
> and literature had been demonstrated all too often in living memory.
> The abominable murder of thousands of Sinhalese, and the reduction of
> their material culture to ashes, in the repression of the 1817-8 Uva
> Rebellion, was doubtless recalled in the smaller Matale rebellion of
> 1848, quelled with the public execution of a Buddhist monk.  We need
> not rehearse the timeline of the three Anglo-Burmese wars that defined
> this period on the mainland; Buddhist texts were not only looted by
> the British, but also burned in pyres to break the spirit of native
> resistance.
>



It would be good if you would write a separate, detailed essay or book on
the effects of Anglo and French colonialism, the Vietnam war, and Communism,
etc, on Pali Buddhism in Ceylon and Burma and SE Asia. You seem to be keen
to draw attention to these terrible happenings in introductions to Pali
grammars, but a more appropriate place would be a separate work.


> Thus, in looking back on a period of extraordinary European scholarly
> activity, we must be aware that it was also a period of
> all-too-ordinary European brutality; the expectation of some of these
> scholars was that they were studying a culture that would soon be
> dead, viz., one that they had a hand in killing.  This is most
> infamously the case with Max Mller, and was also true of
> less-renowned F. Mason.


As above, it would be good to give quotations/references, however it would
be better to do this in a separate work.


Although I would not attempt a complete list
> of European language publications on Pli grammar in the period, we
> may name some of the major works as follows: D'Alwis (1863), Mason
> (1868), Senart (1871), Gray (1883), Tha Do Oung (1899), Tilby (1899),
> Vidyabhusana (1901), Duroiselle (1906), DeSilva (1915).  A large
> number of journal articles and works of early lexicography are omitted
> from this short list.



It would be useful to make a (separate) list of these other articles and
works too.

All of this suffices to say that the present work was not written in
> the rarefied atmospohere of an obscure study, but, in fact, Duroiselle
> wrote in the context of much more lively competition in this field
> than there is at present.


In fact, according to Duroiselle's own introduction the work was
specifically written for his college students in the capital of Burma:
``This grammar was written for my pupils in the Rangoon College, to
facilitate their work and make the study of the Pali language easier for
them.'' So I don't think that there was a context of academic competition in
this case. Maybe it is better to talk about a lively environment.

I hope that this is of use.

Best wishes,
                       Bh. Nyanatusita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1947
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:56 am 
Subject: To Nyanatusita, 1. MS research in Sri Lanka, 2. Duroiselle's Grammar

Bhante,

Before discussing the introduction:

   (1) Bhante, I've just spoken to David Wharton (again) concerning the
possibility of our forming a "team" of specialists in mainland
manuscripts to visit Sri Lanka, and make a study of Khmer, Thai,
Burmese, Arakanese and other non-Sinhalese MS that are scattered
around the island.  Wharton and Koret are very interested, and they
are now talking to Dr. Dr. Harald Hundius about his joining such a
project in some capacity.
        This project would begin a minimum of 3 years into the future
--possibly 5 years into the future --but I think it would be the
perfect solution to the problem that you posed in your draft paper
about un-catalogued "mainland" MS in Sri Lanka.  The big advantage of
having these men on the project would be that they could read
colophons in the old vernacular and Pseudo-Pali mixed with the
vernacular --and, of course, if there are any real vernacular MS (such
as historical/va'ngsa lit.?) that were sent by kings along with the
Pali, they would be invaluable.
        In any case, my ceaseless advertising for this possibility is
now raising some interest, and it seems that a team of at least two or
three scholars could secure funding for a mixed project of MS survey,
digitization, etc., doubtless including the collection at the
Maha-Mula temple, etc.

   (2) Pursuant to issue #1, Bhante, did you complete the draft article
on mainland MS in Sri Lanka?  The digital copy I have says "Do not
distribute wihtout permission ... incomplete", etc.; if the essay has
been advanced or completed, it would be advisable for me to share some
part of it with some of these other "mainland" scholars.

> Can you give quotations and/or references from D Alwis' or Mason's works in
> which they explicitly or implicitly state these fears?

Yes, I can; Mason's introduction talks about this at some length --I
suppose I could include a quotation as you suggest.  I was
disappointed that Mason's autobiography contains very little on this
subject, viz., his hunt for Kacc. MS in obscure parts of Burma.
Presumably his collected MS ended up back in the United States with
his relatives and benefactors, as did certain looted works of Burmese
art?  That would be an odd research project: finding Mason's MS!

> It would be good if you would write a separate, detailed essay or book on
> the effects of Anglo and French colonialism, the Vietnam war, and Communism,
> etc, on Pali Buddhism in Ceylon and Burma and SE Asia. You seem to be keen
> to draw attention to these terrible happenings in introductions to Pali
> grammars, but a more appropriate place would be a separate work.

I think this is a fair point, but I do disagree with it.  In the
instance of my introduction to Mason's book, I decided to agree with
you, and removed the historical information to an appendix, as you
complained that it was exceedingly political.  In this case, I think
it is a brief and salient point, that does not require an entire book
to explain, nor does it even merit an appendix.  If I were writing an
introduction to a book on the Aboriginal Languages of Australia
(written in the same period) would it be so strange to make a passing
mention of the politics of the period?  Only because of the trappings
of Buddhism as an eremitic religion are mentions of political context
of this kind so feared; but this is not a "Buddhist" book --it is a
secular work, written by a Christian missionary, who was teaching at a
colonial college.  And, I think, the political context here helps to
explain something about the origin and nature of the work.

> As above, it would be good to give quotations/references, however it would
> be better to do this in a separate work.

I agree that to further belabour the point with quotations would
belong to a separate work; however, you're correct that I could
provide citations ... I recall a lengthy screed against Muller by the
title of "Lifelong Charade...".

> It would be useful to make a (separate) list of these other articles and
> works too.

However, I live in the Lao P.D.R.!  I have no access to any academic library!

> In fact, according to Duroiselle's own introduction the work was
> specifically written for his college students ...
> So I don't think that there was a context of academic competition in
> this case. Maybe it is better to talk about a lively environment.

No, it's pretty well clear from his introduction to the second edition
that there was competition --although this word does not have such
negative connotations in English as you might suppose.  It is very
clear that Duroiselle was rankled by his international critics, and he
mentions the complaints he received about his "unorthodox" approach
(which is, in some respects, at the same time very orthodox!).  Each
of the names in the list of authors given were aware of (and drew
upon) the earlier work, and I do indeed beleive that Duroiselle was in
competition with the other English texts on Pali published in Burma
(e.g.) James Grey's and Mason's --both of which he basically damns out
of all proportion to their merit (e.g., note his very competitive
claim that none of the other authors treat Syntax sufficiently (and
that he is the first to do so!), but, in fact, page for page, Mason
probably has as much material on this as Duroiselle).

E.M.

1948
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:15 am 
Subject: KN:Sn quote in Kacc 1-2-4 (~v. 15)  

In Kacc. verse 1-2-4 (~v. 15) we find the following quotation:

   "saddhiidha vitta.m purisassa se.t.tha.m"

This is evidently from KN:Sn, Uragavaggo (viz., ch 1), a verse
appearing in the dialogue with Alavaka, viz., part 10; however, my
Sinhalese e-text of the passage in question (in the Sn) is utterly
mangled, including, e.g. "citta.m" given erroneously for "vitta.m".

Is this passage (in the Sn) genuinely different in the Sinhalese KN?
The Thai KN:Sn seems to be identical to Kacc.'s quotation --but if
there is a significant difference in the Sinhalese canon this would be
noteworthy, as Pind's article already has drawn attention to the
possibility that in at least one instance the Burmese canon was
corrected with reference to Kacc.

Frankly, I expect that there is simply a blob of ink in the Sinhalese
BJT, and the confusion results from the ambiguity in the series of
antique ligatures used for the word "saddhiidha" --but if there is a
difference, it is worth noting.

E.M.

1949
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:42 am 
Subject: SV: KN:Sn quote in Kacc 1-2-4 (~v. 15)  

<Is this passage (in the Sn) genuinely different in the Sinhalese KN?>

No. The Sinhalese reading is as quoted.

Ole Pind

1950
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:48 am 
Subject: Re: To Nyanatusita, 1. MS research in Sri Lanka, 2. Duroiselle's Grammar

Dear Eisel,

Thanks.


>
>   (1) Bhante, I've just spoken to David Wharton (again) concerning the
> possibility of our forming a "team" of specialists in mainland
> manuscripts to visit Sri Lanka, and make a study of Khmer, Thai,
> Burmese, Arakanese and other non-Sinhalese MS that are scattered
> around the island.  Wharton and Koret are very interested, and they
> are now talking to Dr. Dr. Harald Hundius about his joining such a
> project in some capacity.
>        This project would begin a minimum of 3 years into the future
> --possibly 5 years into the future --but I think it would be the
> perfect solution to the problem that you posed in your draft paper
> about un-catalogued "mainland" MS in Sri Lanka.  The big advantage of
> having these men on the project would be that they could read
> colophons in the old vernacular and Pseudo-Pali mixed with the
> vernacular --and, of course, if there are any real vernacular MS (such
> as historical/va'ngsa lit.?) that were sent by kings along with the
> Pali, they would be invaluable.
>        In any case, my ceaseless advertising for this possibility is
> now raising some interest, and it seems that a team of at least two or
> three scholars could secure funding for a mixed project of MS survey,
> digitization, etc., doubtless including the collection at the
> Maha-Mula temple, etc.


I am pleased that you advertise this important matter and that it might
eventually lead to a concrete project. I doubt that there would be
vernacular MS in SL, but I remember having seen vernacular colophons and
footnotes. If I am still around by the time, I would be happy to assist by
way of arranging access to temples, etc. I have some pictures of Khom MSS in
Sri Lanka that we could send them as examples.



   (2) Pursuant to issue #1, Bhante, did you complete the draft article
> on mainland MS in Sri Lanka?  The digital copy I have says "Do not
> distribute wihtout permission ... incomplete", etc.; if the essay has
> been advanced or completed, it would be advisable for me to share some
> part of it with some of these other "mainland" scholars.


I shall send you the article again when I am back in Kandy begin next month.
The article is not finished,  because it would entail visiting temples, etc.
At the moment I have no time for that as I am busy with the BPS and lack the
necessary support. It would be better to send the article completely to the
scholars, rather than in part.


> > It would be good if you would write a separate, detailed essay or book
> on
> > the effects of Anglo and French colonialism, the Vietnam war, and
> Communism,
> > etc, on Pali Buddhism in Ceylon and Burma and SE Asia. You seem to be
> keen
> > to draw attention to these terrible happenings in introductions to Pali
> > grammars, but a more appropriate place would be a separate work.
>
> I think this is a fair point, but I do disagree with it.  In the
> instance of my introduction to Mason's book, I decided to agree with
> you, and removed the historical information to an appendix, as you
> complained that it was exceedingly political.  In this case, I think
> it is a brief and salient point, that does not require an entire book
> to explain, nor does it even merit an appendix.  If I were writing an
> introduction to a book on the Aboriginal Languages of Australia
> (written in the same period) would it be so strange to make a passing
> mention of the politics of the period?  Only because of the trappings
> of Buddhism as an eremitic religion are mentions of political context
> of this kind so feared; but this is not a "Buddhist" book --it is a
> secular work, written by a Christian missionary, who was teaching at a
> colonial college.  And, I think, the political context here helps to
> explain something about the origin and nature of the work.



Yes. I agree, however I did not intend this is in a negative way. An article
or book on this period would be important and useful and you would be the
right person to write it. I am not aware of anything that comprehensively
deals with this particular subject.

Best wishes,
                        Bh. Nyanatusita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1951
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:37 am 
Subject: Re: To Nyanatusita, 1. MS research in Sri Lanka, 2. Duroiselle's Grammar
 

Hello Bhante,

> I am pleased that you advertise this important matter and that it might
> eventually lead to a concrete project.

Yes, my line of thinking is this: if I can get five scholars
interested in the project, or to actually apply for funding, the odds
are that at least one of them will actually be able to participate
(circa 5 years from now!).

>I doubt that there would be
> vernacular MS in SL, but I remember having seen vernacular colophons and
> footnotes.

It may be that their entire contribution to the project would be
translating colophons --and, of course, practical matters with
digitization, etc.
Some of these "mainland" colophons contain interesting historical
information --and I expect that very few Sinhalese scholars can read
them (*I* certainly cannot read them!).

E.M.

1952
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:40 am 
Subject: Re: KN:Sn quote in Kacc 1-2-4 (~v. 15)  

Thanks to Dr. Pind for checking the passage in question.

I think the S.L.T.P. etext is made by people who are too young to
remember the old ligatures used for (e.g.) the combined /ddh-/ in
Sinhalese script --and this contributed to (or caused) the confusion.
"Citta" vs. "Vitta" is also pretty well self-explanatory (as an error)
in Sinhalese script.

Thanks again.

E.M.

1953
From: ashinpan@gmail.com 
Date: Sun Jul 2, 2006 3:15 pm 
Subject: about the reading "vitta.m" in the Burmese canon

Dear Eisel


You wrote:
>
>   In Kacc. verse 1-2-4 (~v. 15) we find the following quotation:
>
> "saddhiidha vitta.m purisassa se.t.tha.m"
>
> This is evidently from KN:Sn, Uragavaggo (viz., ch 1), a verse
> appearing in the dialogue with Alavaka, viz., part 10; however, my
> Sinhalese e-text of the passage in question (in the Sn) is utterly
> mangled, including, e.g. "citta.m" given erroneously for "vitta.m".
>
> Is this passage (in the Sn) genuinely different in the Sinhalese KN?
> The Thai KN:Sn seems to be identical to Kacc.'s quotation --but if
> there is a significant difference in the Sinhalese canon this would be
> noteworthy, as Pind's article already has drawn attention to the
> possibility that in at least one instance the Burmese canon was
> corrected with reference to Kacc.
>
>
> I'd like to say that it is not justified, even in the Burmese tradition,
> to correct the Canon reading just because Kacc has a different reading. What
> if Kacc itself is corrupt?
>
> The correction in the Burmese version in fact comes from the Sn-a where
> vitta is commented as "muttama.niaadiinipi vittaani . . .ma.nimuttaadiihi
> vittehi . . .". So the correct reading should be vitta.m, which means
> "wealth, property, possession". We cannot underestimate the value of
> commentaries in textual criticism, for a commentary represents the
> manuscript that its author uses; we can also "see" that manuscript if we use
> the commentary wisely.
>
> with metta
>
> Ven. Pandita
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

1954
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 3, 2006 10:18 am 
Subject: viyoga (Kc 10)  

Dear All,

I wonder if anyone can help solve a problem I'm having with Kacc 10
regarding the separation (viyoga) of the antecedent consonant from the
following vowel. I will first give the sutta with its vutti and one example
from the Kaccaayanabyaakara.na (Burmese ed.):

"10, 12. pubbamadho.thitamassara.m sarena viyojaye.

tattha sandhi.m kattukaamo pubbabya~njana.m adho.thita.m assara.m katvaa
sara~nca upari katvaa sarena viyojaye.

tatraayamaadi. "

As I understand it, the separation in the example occurs between the 'r' in
'tatr' and the vowel immediately following, i.e. 'aa' at the beginning of
'aayamaadi'. Without sandhi the phrase would read 'tatra aya.m aadi'. Does
this rule imply that the break between tatr and aayamaadi should be heard in
pronunciation? Up to now, I have assumed the pronunciation to be
'ta-traa-ya-maa-di' but this rule suggests a pronounciation of
'tatr-aa-ya-maa-di'.

Best wishes,

Jim

1955
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Jul 3, 2006 2:21 pm 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10)  

The interesting thing about this rule is that it does not address sandhi but
how to write Pali: the idea is that one writes a consonant below
(adho.thita.m) the previous one, removes the vowel from it adding it to the
immediately subsequent one.

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 3. juli 2006 16:19
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] viyoga (Kc 10)

Dear All,

I wonder if anyone can help solve a problem I'm having with Kacc 10
regarding the separation (viyoga) of the antecedent consonant from the
following vowel. I will first give the sutta with its vutti and one example
from the Kaccaayanabyaakara.na (Burmese ed.):

"10, 12. pubbamadho.thitamassara.m sarena viyojaye.

tattha sandhi.m kattukaamo pubbabya~njana.m adho.thita.m assara.m katvaa
sara~nca upari katvaa sarena viyojaye.

tatraayamaadi. "

As I understand it, the separation in the example occurs between the 'r' in
'tatr' and the vowel immediately following, i.e. 'aa' at the beginning of
'aayamaadi'. Without sandhi the phrase would read 'tatra aya.m aadi'. Does
this rule imply that the break between tatr and aayamaadi should be heard in
pronunciation? Up to now, I have assumed the pronunciation to be
'ta-traa-ya-maa-di' but this rule suggests a pronounciation of
'tatr-aa-ya-maa-di'.

Best wishes,

Jim

1956
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 3, 2006 8:16 pm 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10)  

Dear Ole,

I have to disagree that this rule is about how to write Pali and not about
sandhi. Do you agree with the vutti interpretation? It contains "tattha
sandhi.m kattukaamo..." (wishing to perform sandhi therein). "adho.thita.m"
could just as well be describing the antecedent position of the consonant.
Doesn't this rule relate to one of the 10 sandhi functions (sandhikiccaani)
called 'viyoga' which is defined at Sadd 24 (p. 609,23) as "sarato
vinibbhogo". I don't think the final short vowel of "tatra" is added to
"aya.m" according to Kaccaayana. Rather, the initial short "a" of "aya.m" is
changed to a long "a" (Kacc 15). I believe Paa.nini treats the coalescence
of such vowels differently.

Jim

<< The interesting thing about this rule is that it does not address sandhi
but how to write Pali: the idea is that one writes a consonant below
(adho.thita.m) the previous one, removes the vowel from it adding it to the
immediately subsequent one.

Ole Pind >>

1957
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jul 4, 2006 3:10 am 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10)  

Dear Jim,

I think that Kacc-v understands the meaning of adho.tha "standing below" in
the manner I suggested, because it describes the vowel separated from the
consonant as put above (upari) the consonant i.e. the consonant cluster, and
the following sutta states that when possible (yutte) it is to be combined
with the following vowel, in the present case a+a > aa is written on top of
the consonantal ligature. The same practice is presupposed by Vararuci who
is credited with a small prakrit grammar, see Prak.rtaprakaa.sa III.1-2.
Snart who translated Kacc did not understand the meaning of the term
adho.tha and Cowell was evidently uncertain about how to interpret the term
adho < Sanskrit adhas "below" of his source.

Ole

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 4. juli 2006 02:17
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] viyoga (Kc 10)

Dear Ole,

I have to disagree that this rule is about how to write Pali and not about
sandhi. Do you agree with the vutti interpretation? It contains "tattha
sandhi.m kattukaamo..." (wishing to perform sandhi therein). "adho.thita.m"
could just as well be describing the antecedent position of the consonant.
Doesn't this rule relate to one of the 10 sandhi functions (sandhikiccaani)
called 'viyoga' which is defined at Sadd 24 (p. 609,23) as "sarato
vinibbhogo". I don't think the final short vowel of "tatra" is added to
"aya.m" according to Kaccaayana. Rather, the initial short "a" of "aya.m" is
changed to a long "a" (Kacc 15). I believe Paa.nini treats the coalescence
of such vowels differently.

Jim

<< The interesting thing about this rule is that it does not address sandhi
but how to write Pali: the idea is that one writes a consonant below
(adho.thita.m) the previous one, removes the vowel from it adding it to the
immediately subsequent one.

Ole Pind >>

1958
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 4, 2006 8:41 pm 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10)  

Dear Ole,

I agree that "adho.thita" means "standing below" but not in the manner you
have suggested. I wish I could quote some glosses on this term from
Kacc-va.n.n and Kaccaayanatthadiipanii but both books are out of my reach
this week. I think I'd better wait until next week before saying much more.

Jim

<< I think that Kacc-v understands the meaning of adho.tha "standing below"
in
the manner I suggested, because it describes the vowel separated from the
consonant as put above (upari) the consonant i.e. the consonant cluster, and
the following sutta states that when possible (yutte) it is to be combined
with the following vowel, in the present case a+a > aa is written on top of
the consonantal ligature. The same practice is presupposed by Vararuci who
is credited with a small prakrit grammar, see Prak.rtaprakaa.sa III.1-2.
Snart who translated Kacc did not understand the meaning of the term
adho.tha and Cowell was evidently uncertain about how to interpret the term
adho < Sanskrit adhas "below" of his source. >>

Ole >>

1959
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jul 5, 2006 12:19 am 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Re: Kacc. 1-1-10

I read _adho.thita.m_ as "in the final position" (literally "in the
bottom position") of a word.  Conversely, Dr Pind's survey proposes
that it indicates "the graphic practice of writing the final consonant
in a conjunct below the line" (23).  I take it that Dr. Pind's
interpretation is supported by comparative reading of Vararuci's
Prakrit grammar, whereas Senart claims that his reading of
_adho.thita.m_ meaning "final" is supported by the Ruupasiddhi, where,
he claims, it is explained with the word _antika_ (but perhaps Senart
was recalling a commentarial layer on the Ruupasiddhi, rather than the
source text?).

Senart interprets the whole verse as a guide to pronunciation, rather
than spelling ("...en garde contra une prononciation indistincte"),
but Vidyabhusana does not follow his lead, instead reading the verse
(primarily) as describing the fact that the anuswara is sometimes kept
distinct from the initial vowel of the word following.

In other words, following Vidyabhusana, we would regard the purpose of
verse 10 as a mere caveat to verse 11, viz., we do not *always*
subjoin final consonants to the initial vowel of the next word
following.

Yet another interpretation is offered by H.T. DeSilva, who translates
the passage as: "Separate the initial consonant from the vowel by
sub-rule".  I do not consider this a very helpful gloss; apparently
the sub-rule is left up to the imagination.

I would surmise that, originally, the purpose of 1-1-10 made sense in
terms of "softening" the sequence from verses 9 to 11; if you're just
reciting the suttas (not the vutti, which was, of course, added later)
then it would make sense to have a caveat of this kind in the
sequence, just generally reminding the reciter that (notwithstanding
verses 9 and 11) the final consonant paired with an initial vowel can
remain mutually distinct (notwithstanding 9 and 11, etc.).  However, I
do not believe that this should be understood as a prescription for
pronunciation (viz., in all cases to remain phonetically distinct),
nor do I see it as pertaining to a scribal or pictographic quality of
the words.  I simply have no need for the further hypothesis
concerning orthography in this verse.  However, in support of the
general proposition as quite possible, I might note Mason's
description as to how young Burmese monks studying Kacc. were taught
_Sandhi_ by a procedure of writing part of the word below the line,
then changing the vowel, etc., and returning the "lowered" letter into
the word (this is in his introduction, p. iv - v, with a
near-inscrutable table provided in illustration).  Mason thought that
this type of instruction was implicit in at least some verses of Kacc.
as a text, viz., that the examples were intended to be copied out
repeatedly, following a procedure whereby a syllable would be put
below the line to help the student practice the permutation of the
vowels (etc.) --however, this is *not* equivalent to "the graphic
practice of writing the final consonant in a conjunct below the line"
in a finished text.

If the primary example of the rule is (as Vidyabhusana suggests) the
mutation of the ansuwara (viz., the final consonant _par excellence_
in Pali) the supposition that this peculiar final consonant (or its
permutation as "ma", "mu", etc.) is supposed to become a subscript in
the fashion suggested by Dr. Pind seems to an odd match with the
wording and context of the verse in question.  I am not at all
dogmatic: I would be delighted to learn that I am wrong, if this may
be the case.

So, why is the sole example (from the Dhp) of "Tatraayamaadi" provided
at all?  I do not assume that it is especially salient example that
the Vutti has chosen, but it certainly would not make sense as an
example of keeping pronunciation distinct (following Senart's
interpretation).  It might be taken as an example of inconsistent
_nigghaiita sandhi_, showing a form that only appears with the
anuswara permuted because of the poetic metre of the Dhp, but perhaps
would be more commonly (or: prosaically) found written out in a
"viyojaye" form.

E.M.

1960
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed Jul 5, 2006 3:18 am 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

If one interprets adho.thitam as denoting "in the bottom position" = "in the
final position" the introduction of upari in Kacc-v would mean "in the top
position" which is difficult to give a consistent sandhi interpretation.
However, the use of the potential  "naye" "one should lead to" in the
immediately following sutta 11 can only refer to joining letters in writing,
it has no implications whatever for phonetics.
The author of the Nyaasa explains that adho.thitam denotes a consonant
devoid of its vowel (assara.m katvaa), not exactly illuminating. The
commentators were clearly unaware of the fact that the rule addresses a
particular way of writing, different from the one en vogue in SE Asia at the
time when they composed their commentaries.

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 5. juli 2006 06:20
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] viyoga (Kc 10) --comment

Re: Kacc. 1-1-10

I read _adho.thita.m_ as "in the final position" (literally "in the bottom
position") of a word.  Conversely, Dr Pind's survey proposes that it
indicates "the graphic practice of writing the final consonant in a conjunct
below the line" (23).  I take it that Dr. Pind's interpretation is
supported by comparative reading of Vararuci's Prakrit grammar, whereas
Senart claims that his reading of _adho.thita.m_ meaning "final" is
supported by the Ruupasiddhi, where, he claims, it is explained with the
word _antika_ (but perhaps Senart was recalling a commentarial layer on the
Ruupasiddhi, rather than the source text?).

1961
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jul 5, 2006 8:28 am 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dr. Pind,

> ... it has no implications whatever for phonetics.

On that point we certainly agree; I was just reporting Senart's views
for the sake of discussion.

> The author of the Nyaasa explains that adho.thitam denotes a consonant
> devoid of its vowel (assara.m katvaa), not exactly illuminating.

Actually, it may well be illuminating *if* the point of this verse
turns specifically on Nigghahitta Sandhi, viz., if what we're talking
about here is specifically "...a.m u..." becoming "...amu", etc. (and,
in verse 10, the two remaining distinct in some circumstances).

>The
> commentators were clearly unaware of the fact that the rule addresses a
> particular way of writing, different from the one en vogue in SE Asia at the
> time when they composed their commentaries.

I will indeed take your opinion quite seriously, and spend some time
staring at the word "Naye" in 1-1-11, as you suggest.

E.M.

1962
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:01 pm 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Ole,

In a response to Eisel dated July 5, you wrote:

<< The author of the Nyaasa explains that adho.thitam denotes a consonant
devoid of its vowel (assara.m katvaa), not exactly illuminating. The
commentators were clearly unaware of the fact that the rule addresses a
particular way of writing, different from the one en vogue in SE Asia at the
time when they composed their commentaries. >>

The Nyaasa (ad Kacc 10) glosses 'adho.thita.m' with 'pubbe.thita.m'
(standing before) and the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii gives "adhoti
het.t.thaabhaagatthe nipaato. ti.t.thatiiti .thita.m. .thaa
gatinivattimhiiti dhaatu. kattari tapaccayo. adho he.t.thaabhaage .thita.m
adho.thita.m. tappurisasamaaso." (p. 57) According to PED, the indeclinable
'he.t.thaa' can mean "lower in the manuscript, i.e. before, above".

I've been going over all the commentaries I have on Kacc 10 & 11. Plenty of
interesting explanations but some basic questions still go unanswered such
as "what is the purpose of separating the voweless consonant from the
following vowel?". I think I need to first sort out what the various
commentators are actually saying and to find out to what extent they agree
with each other or differ before I can deal with whether or not the rule
addresses a particular way of writing.

Best wishes,
Jim

1963
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:52 am 
Subject: Stephen Collins' Pali Grammar

I happened to notice today on the 'recent arrivals' shelf of a Chiangmai bookstore,
"A Pali Grammar for Students" by Stephen Collins.  This volume. published by
Silkworm books in Chiangmai, is listed on Amazon as due for release 9/30/2006,
list price US$30. The price in Thailand is ThB695 ($17-18).
      I assume many of us know of the existence of this book, but perhaps some do
not, or are not aware of its salient characteristics.  It is 'a work of reference and not
a primer' and is to the author's knowledge as well as my own, 'the first to use both
Western and Pail grammatical categories'.  The contents are traditional, based on
Saddanit, with copious examples taken mostly 'from the Canonical texts.'  It
appears to me a valuabe addition to the existing grammatical literature.

George Bedell

1964
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:06 pm 
Subject: Re: Stephen Collins' Pali Grammar  

I believe that I read an advance notice that the book in question was
forthcoming, but I have yet to see an issue in print.

I agree that it will be the first Western work to treat Pali grammar
in traditional categories (presuming that it does so) --I was
astonished when I began my own work that this was so much neglected in
most published sources.  However, some will here add a caveat that
Warder mentions and defines some traditional terms in passing.

I'll look forward to finding a copy.

E.M.

1965
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:31 am 
Subject: Re: Stephen Collins' Pali Grammar  

This book was just printed and presented to the Royal family
of Thailand today. It does employ traditional categories (I
have seen an advanced copy and reviewed its earliest
incarnation in 2001). It will be available in Thai bookstores
(and Western) tomorrow.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:06:56 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Stephen Collins' Pali Grammar
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>I believe that I read an advance notice that the book in
question was
>forthcoming, but I have yet to see an issue in print.
>

1966
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:33 am 
Subject: Re: Stephen Collins' Pali Grammar  

Oh, its "Steven" not Stephen (if you are looking up on the
web), S.Collins is probably good enough though.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:06:56 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Stephen Collins' Pali Grammar
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>I believe that I read an advance notice that the book in
question was
>forthcoming, but I have yet to see an issue in print.
>

1967
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:32 am 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Jim,

<<The Nyaasa (ad Kacc 10) glosses 'adho.thita.m' with 'pubbe.thita.m>>

Are we talking about the same text? My Sinhalese 1898 ed. Nowhere glosses
adho.thita.m with pubbe.thita.m, neither in the part commmenting on Kacc 10
nor in that on Kacc-v 10.

I think that the Nyaasa makes sense if interpreted as I have suggested: the
pubbabhuuta.m (so Nyaasa) consonant i.e. the one that precedes a following
vowel is written below a immediately preceding consonant by dissociating it
from its vowel which thus becomes vowelless (asara.m), after which it is
joined to a (following) vowel as explained in Kacc 11. The two suttas really
belong together.

Best wishes,
Ole

1968
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:43 pm 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Ole,

> <<The Nyaasa (ad Kacc 10) glosses 'adho.thita.m' with 'pubbe.thita.m>>
>
> Are we talking about the same text? My Sinhalese 1898 ed. Nowhere glosses
> adho.thita.m with pubbe.thita.m, neither in the part commmenting on Kacc
> 10 nor in that on Kacc-v 10.

In my Burmese text (p. 19, Zabu Press, 1929) there is the following line:

pubbe.thita.m bya~njana.m sarato viyojayetvaa kattha thapetabbanti sandeho
jaayeyya |

I take it that "pubbe.thita.m" stands for "adho.thita.m". The Indian script
edn. (p. 37, New Delhi, 1991) also has this line but reads "pubbe .thita.m"
instead of "pubbe.thita.m".

<< I think that the Nyaasa makes sense if interpreted as I have suggested:
the > pubbabhuuta.m (so Nyaasa) consonant i.e. the one that precedes a
following > vowel is written below a immediately preceding consonant by
dissociating it > from its vowel which thus becomes vowelless (asara.m),
after which it is > joined to a (following) vowel as explained in Kacc 11.
The two suttas really > belong together. >>

Yes, I agree that Kacc 10 & 11 belong together and should be studied
together. But I don't agree that the two rules apply to conjuncts only such
as /tr/ in the examples given but also to single consonants such as the /m/
in ". . . abhiratimiccheyya". I still have difficulty making much sense of
the explanations given in the commentaries on these suttas and will need to
keep mulling over them for awhile. I'll keep in mind your suggested
interpretation. I thought of an interpretation that might also apply to the
/t/ (also vowelless) in the conjunct /tr/: the /t/ originally started with
/ta/ as listed in Kc 6 and is then separated from its /a/ by Kc 10 and
carried over to the subsequent letter /r/ by Kc 11. The rules suggest a
computational procedure such as subtraction and addition.

Best wishes,
Jim

1969
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:54 am 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Jim,

<<pubbe.thita.m bya~njana.m sarato viyojayetvaa kattha thapetabbanti sandeho
jaayeyya |

I take it that "pubbe.thita.m" stands for "adho.thita.m". The Indian script
edn. (p. 37, New Delhi, 1991) also has this line but reads "pubbe .thita.m"
instead of "pubbe.thita.m">>

You are quite right, I overlooked this phrase. It illustrates very well my
point that the commentators did not understand the purpose of Kacc 10-11.

Best wishes,
Ole

1970
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:02 am 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Ole,

Some corrections and further comments.

> <<pubbe.thita.m bya~njana.m sarato viyojayetvaa kattha thapetabbanti
sandeho jaayeyya |
>
> I take it that "pubbe.thita.m" stands for "adho.thita.m". The Indian
script edn. (p. 37, New Delhi, 1991) also has this line but reads "pubbe
.thita.m" instead of "pubbe.thita.m">>

After some further study of the above quote from the Nyaasa (ad Kc 10), I
have to correct my earlier remark above.  The "pubbe.thita.m" explains
"pubba.m" not "adho.thita.m". "pubba.m" or "pubbe.thita.m" explains which
consonant should be separated from the vowel. "adho.thita.m" explains where
to place the consonant after its separation from the vowel. I would suggest
that after the separation takes place the antecedent consonant automatically
loses its description "pubba.m" since it no longer applies and in its place
gets a new one "adho.thita.m" which is what is brought to the subsequent
letter as a final step (Kc 11) in a series of sandhi operations.

"viyojayetvaa" in my quote above should read "viyojetvaa".

> You are quite right, I overlooked this phrase. It illustrates very well my
> point that the commentators did not understand the purpose of Kacc 10-11.

I was quite wrong about "pubbe.thita.m".

Best wishes,
Jim

1971
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:33 am 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Jim,


<<The "pubbe.thita.m" explains "pubba.m" not "adho.thita.m". "pubba.m" or
"pubbe.thita.m" explains which consonant should be separated from the vowel.
"adho.thita.m" explains where to place the consonant after its separation
from the vowel. I would suggest that after the separation takes place the
antecedent consonant automatically loses its description "pubba.m" since it
no longer applies and in its place gets a new one "adho.thita.m" which is
what is brought to the subsequent letter as a final step (Kc 11) in a series
of sandhi operations<<

Yes, The real problem of Kacc 10 is the presence of the term adho.thitam. It
can only denote a consonant that is placed below. It starts as pubba,
pubbabhuuta or pubba.thita and is subsequently turned into one that is
adho.thitam. This is how Nyaasa paraphrases Kacc-v. My point is that we are
dealing with a a description of the widespread practice of writing any given
consonant below a preceding one. It would not make sense to write a
consonant below a vowel. The rule is in my opinion not a sandhi rule: rule
11 naye para.m yutte must refers to writing.

Best wishes,
Ole

1972
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:18 am 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

> Yes, The real problem of Kacc 10 is the presence of the term adho.thitam. It
> can only denote a consonant that is placed below.

I equivocate on this point.  I do not see that this must definitively
be the true meaning of "adho.thita.m" --although it is a very
appealing explanation.

E.M.

1973
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:59 am 
Subject: SV: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 28. juli 2006 11:19
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] viyoga (Kc 10) --comment

> Yes, The real problem of Kacc 10 is the presence of the term
> adho.thitam. It can only denote a consonant that is placed below.

I equivocate on this point.  I do not see that this must definitively be the
true meaning of "adho.thita.m" --although it is a very appealing
explanation.

E.M.

The commentators agree that adho.thitam means assara.m katvaa i.e. a
consonant without its vowel. This describes very well the pratice of writing
a consonant followed by a vowel below the preceding consonant and writing
the vowel after the ligature with the changes necessitated by any given
initial vowel of the following word.

O.P

1974
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:41 pm 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Dear Ole,

<< Yes, The real problem of Kacc 10 is the presence of the term adho.thitam.
It can only denote a consonant that is placed below. It starts as pubba,
pubbabhuuta or pubba.thita and is subsequently turned into one that is
adho.thitam. This is how Nyaasa paraphrases Kacc-v. My point is that we
are dealing with a a description of the widespread practice of writing any
given consonant below a preceding one. It would not make sense to write a
consonant below a vowel. The rule is in my opinion not a sandhi rule: rule
11 naye para.m yutte must refers to writing. >>

I'd like to make two points:

1) In line with your interpretation of "adho.thita", the phrase "sara~nca
upari katvaa" (and having made the vowel above) in Kacc-v 10 would therefore
suggest that the vowel should be written above the adho.thita consonant.
This, of course, wouldn't make sense--as you say.

2) Writing a consonant under a preceding one points to a conjunct of two or
more consonants. One often sees a consonant written below the one above in
the Devanagari or Burmese writing systems. However, in following the
commentators, it doesn't appaear that adho.thita consonants are restricted
to a conjunct situation. The Nyaasa cites "so siilavaa" which has no
conjunct as you can see. Here the antecedent consonant /s/ is, according to
Kc 10, separated from the vowel /o/. In this case, under what could you
write the adho.thita consonant /s/ ?

Best wishes,
Jim

1975
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:21 am 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Contra:

> 1) In line with your interpretation of "adho.thita", the phrase "sara~nca
> upari katvaa" (and having made the vowel above) in Kacc-v 10 would therefore
> suggest that the vowel should be written above the adho.thita consonant.
> This, of course, wouldn't make sense ...

No no --it can make sense, as subscript consonants do not take on
"subscript" vowel markers, but, instead, vowels pertaining to the
subscript are written as if attached to the superscript.  If the
subscript consonant had a "i" vowel pertaining to it, this *would not*
be written above the subscript (viz., not in-between the super- &
subscript consonants!).  This is certainly the case in Lanna script,
resulting in a quite a confusing method of writing, with various
inconsistencies.

My vague understanding was that the south-indian system of writing
subscript consonants had similar ambiguities --from an outsider's
perspective.

> 2) Writing a consonant under a preceding one points to a conjunct of two or
> more consonants.

No no!  Dr. Pind isn't talking about compound consonants in the
Burmese fashion at all!  The point is that the final syllable of a
compounded *word* is "written below" (in a subscript) so that you have
a visual clue as to where the word-components break.  The final
sequence of the word before its compounding with the next word would
be written in a manner that does not silence the inherent vowel, but
might even have a distinct vowel sound for both the super- and
subscript consonants thusly "stacked".

This "orthographic praxis" is not in use in any of the Theravada
countries today, as Dr. Pind points out.  I believe it was used in
some of the old South-Indian inscriptions, but I honestly do not have
any good published source on this subject --nor am I likely to find
one here in Vientiane.

The usage in Lanna mentioned above is only for the vernacular, has
nothing to do with compound words, and may well have no historical
relation to the Indian original.

> The Nyaasa cites "so siilavaa" which has no
> conjunct as you can see. Here the antecedent consonant /s/ is, according to
> Kc 10, separated from the vowel /o/. In this case, under what could you
> write the adho.thita consonant /s/ ?

Although this may be a bad example (for the reason Pind has given,
viz., that the Nyaasa doesn't understand the verse in question) I will
use it to draw attention to precisely the point that you're missing,
Jim: in the writing systems in question you would write "so" with the
"sii" underneath it --both retain their vowels (i.e., it does not
become "ssii"!), and the vowel markers would (I believe) both be
written on the main script level.  The "ii" would not be horizontally
interposed between the top "so" and the subscripted "s" --not that I'm
aware of (but perhaps this is attested in some inscriptions??).

As noted, "sosiilavaa" may be a poor example.

E.M.

1976
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:30 pm 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Eisel,

> Contra:

Thanks for your arguments against the points I made and the helpful
explanations about scripts. I'm not familiar with the writing systems of
South India and don't really have much of an idea of the one Ole has in mind
to support his thesis of the two rules applying to a particular way of
writing. Even though I don't agree with it, it is not easy to make arguments
against it. I think it would be better to put my time and effort into
furthering my understanding of the two rules through a close study of the
various commentaries on them.

I will respond to the following:

> As noted, "sosiilavaa" may be a poor example.

I could have looked for a better example but this one was the first I'd come
across after going through the first 10 of 40 lines of the Nyaasa commentary
on Kc 10. It comes from the following passage consisting of a question and
an answer relating to "pubba.m":

sarato bya~njana.m viyojayeti avatvaa kasmaa eva.m vuttanti. yadi paneva.m
vutta.m bhaveyya || sa siilavaati adiisu so siilavaati padacchede kate
katara.m bya~njana.m sarato viyojayeti sandeho jaayeyya pubbaaparanti
niyamaabhaavaa ||

Translation:
Why is it stated in this way and not "the consonant is separated from the
vowel" ? If the latter were thus stated, confusion might arise as to which
consonant should be separated from the vowel when the separation of words is
made in "so siilavaa" among "sa siilavaa" and so on because of a lack of
certainty regarding the antecedent or the subsequent.

The change of "so" to "sa" is explained at Kacc-v 27 which includes "sa
siilavaa" as an example. It seems to me that the /s/ of /so/ can't be
written under a preceding consonant--there isn't any. You're only showing
how it can be written above the "s" in "siilavaa".

Best wishes,
Jim

> > The Nyaasa cites "so siilavaa" which has no
> > conjunct as you can see. Here the antecedent consonant /s/ is, according
to
> > Kc 10, separated from the vowel /o/. In this case, under what could you
> > write the adho.thita consonant /s/ ?
>
> Although this may be a bad example (for the reason Pind has given,
> viz., that the Nyaasa doesn't understand the verse in question) I will
> use it to draw attention to precisely the point that you're missing,
> Jim: in the writing systems in question you would write "so" with the
> "sii" underneath it --both retain their vowels (i.e., it does not
> become "ssii"!), and the vowel markers would (I believe) both be
> written on the main script level.  The "ii" would not be horizontally
> interposed between the top "so" and the subscripted "s" --not that I'm
> aware of (but perhaps this is attested in some inscriptions??).
>
> As noted, "sosiilavaa" may be a poor example.

1977
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:42 am 
Subject: Re: viyoga (Kc 10) --comment  

Hi Jim,

> Thanks for your arguments against the points I made and the helpful
> explanations about scripts. I'm not familiar with the writing systems of
> South India and don't really have much of an idea of the one Ole has in mind
> to support his thesis of the two rules applying to a particular way of
> writing.

(1) I am not an expert on mainland (Indian) orthography, but I believe
that the method Ole is describing has existed (sporadically) in both
the North and South of India --as attested in the limited paleographic
record.

(2) I believe the same method had some kind of marginal existence at
some early date in mainland S.E.A. --as I've seen something like it
very rarely in Burmese & Lanna inscriptions, and it may or may not be
the inspiration for the Lanna vernacular method mentioned.

(3) Generally, the fact that I'm aware of is that the significance of
a subscript consonant (in relation to the implicit vowel, etc.) is
*not* universal or uniform in inscriptional Pali --and much less so in
vernacular or hybrid inscriptions.  In Burmese inscriptions I have
only noticed "stacked" syllables a few times, and I really do not know
if this was an echo of the method of marking compound words that Pind
mentions, or if the scribe was just trying to save space by using such
a method inconsistently to fit more words onto a line.

> Even though I don't agree with it, it is not easy to make arguments
> against it.

I feel that Pind's argument is a consistent and valid interpretation;
however, I stop short of stating conclusively that this must be the
correct interpretation as the same evidence is taken as "proof" of the
opposite supposition --and the opposite assumption (followed in the
commentaries, etc.) is also fairly coherent and consistent.  There may
be yet another interpretation, or we may find conclusive textual
evidence in some other source ... EVENTUALLY.

> It seems to me that the /s/ of /so/ can't be
> written under a preceding consonant--there isn't any. You're only showing
> how it can be written above the "s" in "siilavaa".

That is correct --I only commented on stacking the "so" above the
"si".  As Pind has remarked, the commentary does not understand the
verse, so the examples are necessarily at cross-purposes with his
interpretation.

E.M.

1978
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:53 am 
Subject: E.M.'s Kaccayana: general update  

I've changed the direction and pace of my "forthcoming" edition of
Kaccayana somewhat.

   (1) In the near term I will prepare an edition for Cambodia (viz.,
with Pali in both Khmer script & roman transliteration --& hopefully
with Khmer translation of the English text) based on comparative
reading of printed editions (but not including the comparative reading
of original manuscripts).  This will be a solid "text and translation"
that I should be able to complete in a relatively short period of
time.

   This edition may be adapted for a small, separate print run in Lao
script, etc., and leaves the question open as to when I will be able
to work with sufficient palm-leaf MS to achieve the original
objectives of the project.  It may be that I'll publish this Khmer
edition, then secure minor funding to carry out survey work in Pali
grammatical MS in the region, and then later (with the results of that
survey) produce a general edition including any observations or
findings from the survey and MS reading.

   All of these more-or-less abandon the notion of binding a new
edition of Mason's textbook into the same volume as the text of Kacc.
I've already carried out 90% of the work to put out a new edition of
F. Mason's work (in Burmese, Sinhalese, & Roman script) --but I leave
this aside for the time being.

   (2) I have secured "a real job", and now work as a junior editor at
the national (English language) newspaper of the Lao P.D.R.  This job
will occupy my attention for about five hours per day, six days per
week --but will allow me to feed myself while pursuing my research.  I
may well get more work done with than job than in my previous
circumstances --provided that I resist the temptation to enroll in
full-time Lao courses (at the French "Centre Pour le Promotion du
l'Imperialisme Culturelle").

   My digital edition of Duroiselle's work is 99% complete, but I've
been too busy nailing up "Gan Nyung" (anti-mosquito screens) to post
it to the internet --along with an intended overhaul of my evolving
Pali resources site.  All that shouldn't take too terribly long,
presuming that my new apartment in Ban Haysok isn't too noisy at
night.

E.M.

1979
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:57 pm 
Subject: EM: Improved Pali Website, new mailing address in Laos
 

Major improvements to my Pali website (http://pali.pratyeka.org/) including:

   * I added a set of Unicode compliant etexts of the Vinaya and 4
Nikayas (sorry, no KN yet) wrapped up in well-formatted PDFs. These
are great for rapid text searches (due to technological change in the
past five years, searching PDFs has become preferable to searching TXT
files):

      http://pali.pratyeka.org/#Canon-etexts

   * I added my own mailing address (as an image, in Lao text) at the
bottom of the page, so that anyone who really (really) wants to get in
touch with me can print out the image, and glue the top half of it to
a package.  This reflects the fact that I now have my own post-office
box number, etc., here in Vientiane.  Thus, if Jim or Justin anyone
else now needs to send me books, they have a relatively easy way to do
it.

   The next update will include the new edition of Duroiselle's
textbook (PDF) --now 95% complete.

   For my own part: a recent three-hour interrogation by the Lao police
reminded me of the great importance of speaking the local vernacular,
and I have temporarily "dropped" all work on Pali to brush up on my
Laotian vocabulary.  I probably will not work seriously on Kaccayana
for another two months, or until I've memorized another 2,000 Lao
monosyllables (whichever comes first).

E.M.

1980
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 5:39 am 
Subject: Pali-vs.-Chinese Agama resources from Marcus Bingenheimer
 

A resource that rather surprised me:

Bhikkhu Dama et. al. (Transl.): A Chinese Translation of Buddhadatta's
'Concise Pali-English Dictionary'. Digital Version (Version 1.0).

http://sw.chibs.edu.tw/~mb/tools/paliChinDict/indexPaliChin.html

Other materials from the same author are listed here:

http://sw.chibs.edu.tw/~mb/tools/indexTools.html

They include a reference utility for finding the Chinese Agama
translations/equivalents when working from Pali sources.

E.M.

1981
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 5:45 am 
Subject: Finot's thesis on the councils (Vinaya) & MPNS  

Here is the full text of an article that I find quite (prima facie)
interesting, suggesting that the original source (and format) of the
Mahaparinibbana sutta & the account of the first two councils in the
Vinaya were one and the same text (possibly "extra-canonical" in its
day).

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/lou.htm

I discovered it when looking around for a list of Louis Finot's
complete works --I still haven't found one.

E.M.

1982
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 1:06 pm 
Subject: Re: Finot's thesis on the councils (Vinaya) & MPNS  

If I remember correctly, a list of Finot's published work for
the EFEO can be found in the last section of the EFEO's 75
year anniversary issue. There is also a mini-biography in Un
siecle pour l'Asie by Catherine Clementin-Ojha and Pierre-Yves
Manguin. I haven't checked if the list is "complete" though.
Best,
jm
---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:45:11 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Finot's thesis on the councils (Vinaya)
& MPNS
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Here is the full text of an article that I find quite (prima
facie)
>interesting, suggesting that the original source (and format)
of the
>Mahaparinibbana sutta & the account of the first two councils
in the
>Vinaya were one and the same text (possibly "extra-canonical"
in its
>day).
>
>http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/lou.htm

1983
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Fri Sep 8, 2006 1:09 pm 
Subject: Re: Finot's thesis on the councils (Vinaya) & MPNS  

Actually, now that I think of it, the list of Finot's works
might be in the 50 year anniversary edition. I think the 75
year one only lists works published between 1951-1976. They
are at home though, I am in the office right now.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:45:11 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Finot's thesis on the councils (Vinaya)
& MPNS
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Here is the full text of an article that I find quite (prima
facie)
>interesting, suggesting that the original source (and format)
of the
>Mahaparinibbana sutta & the account of the first two councils
in the
>Vinaya were one and the same text (possibly "extra-canonical"
in its
>day).
>
>http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/lou.htm
>

1984
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:15 pm 
Subject: Ghosts & SLABS  

(1) I notice that the _Sri Lanka Association for Buddhist Studies_
("S.L.A.B.S.") now maintains a website; the last copy of their printed
newsletter (that I managed to find a copy of) was actually an
interesting read, with some useful book reviews, as I recall:

   http://www.beyondthenet.net/SLABS/SLABS_News_Letter.htm

(2) Thailand remains haunted (I wonder why they employed 99 monks to
expel the ghost instead of the usual/magical 108?):

Eerie experience interrupts rite

Ghostly encounters at Suvarnabhumi

By Amornrat Mahitthirook [Bangkok Post]

Airports of Thailand (AoT) organised its largest religious rite at the
new Suvarnabhumi airport yesterday to ward off evil spirits, only to
experience an encounter with the unexplained. Rumours of occasional
''ghostly sightings'' have gone around since the first foundation
brick was laid at the airport many years ago. The AoT is determined to
correct the growing perception that the airport is possibly harbouring
some ''uninvited inhabitants'' and to put its staff members' minds at
ease.

Yesterday's rite was presided over by 99 monks who chanted en masse to
improve the luck of the new airport, set to open commercially on
Thursday.

However, halfway through the rite, a man appeared, quivering, and
began to speak in a commanding voice claiming to be ''Poo Ming'', a
guardian spirit of the land partially developed into the airport.

He ordered that a proper spirit house be built at the airport to allow
for its smooth operation. The man, who was unidentified, later passed
out and woke up to find the spirit had left him.

AoT president Chotisak Asapaviriya said the ceremony helped to boost
the morale of airport staff, some of whom were unnerved after learning
of frequent car crashes on the road running parallel to the airport's
eastern runway.

Some veiled figures have sometimes been spotted on the 6km-long road.

Somchai Sawasdeepon, the airport general manager, said he had heard
ghost stories from staff who came across a woman dressed in a
Thai-style costume at the airport construction site in the evening.

He said the airport land formerly belonged to some local communities
encompassing the centuries-old Wat Nhong Prue and its cemetery. It was
reported that the bodies had not been exhumed for proper religious
cremation.

Sqn Ldr Panupong Nualthongyai, head of Suvarnabhumi airport security,
was also a witness to some strange, unexplained episodes.

''Whatever you make of it, it is the belief associated with the Thai
way of life. For the non-believer, it is best not to act
disrespectfully [towards the supernatural],'' he said.

1985
From: "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:31 am 
Subject: PTS membership 2006 free book

Dear friends,

I am writing to find out if anyone (who is a PTS member) is
experiencing delays receiving the free book of the year. Thank you.


metta,
Yong Peng.

1986
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:28 am 
Subject: Re: PTS membership 2006 free book  

Dear Yong Peng,

I, for one, haven't yet received my free book for this year. My experience
has been that if you choose a different book, that one is mailed out shortly
after you make the request. I normally choose a different book but for this
year I decided to accept the following free one offered by PTS:

A Philological Approach to Buddhism, K.R. Norman
ISBN 421 0    23.00

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear friends,
>
> I am writing to find out if anyone (who is a PTS member) is
> experiencing delays receiving the free book of the year. Thank you.
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.

1987
From: "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:32 am 
Subject: Re: PTS membership 2006 free book

Dear Jim,

thanks. I have recently finished Bhikkhu Bodhi's anthology, and
thought Norman's essay collection would come just in time as the next
book. I guess I have to find something else.

metta,
Yong Peng.


--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:

I, for one, haven't yet received my free book for this year. My
experience has been that if you choose a different book, that one is
mailed out shortly after you make the request. I normally choose a
different book but for this year I decided to accept the following
free one offered by PTS:

A Philological Approach to Buddhism, K.R. Norman
ISBN 421 0    23.00

> I am writing to find out if anyone (who is a PTS member) is
> experiencing delays receiving the free book of the year.

1988
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:26 am 
Subject: Re: Ghosts & SLABS  

Hi Eisel,

Thanks for the useful SLABS website information. The following clip from
Book News in their 2004 newsletter caught my attention:

Abhidhanappadipika:A Study of the Text and its Commentary (2001: Bhandarkar
Oriental Research Institute, Pune, India),

Authored by the Ven. Dr. Medagama Nandawamsa Thera, Senior Lecturer at the
Department of Pali and Buddhist Studies, University of Ruhuna, has been
published. The work is based on the doctoral research conducted by the
author at the University of Pune, Department of Sanskrit and Prakrit
languages. The voluminous work contains 538 pages, including several
indexes. A significant contribution to Pali studies.

Best wishes,
Jim

> (1) I notice that the _Sri Lanka Association for Buddhist Studies_
> ("S.L.A.B.S.") now maintains a website; the last copy of their printed
> newsletter (that I managed to find a copy of) was actually an
> interesting read, with some useful book reviews, as I recall:
>
>   http://www.beyondthenet.net/SLABS/SLABS_News_Letter.htm
>

1989
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:50 am 
Subject: Met Filliozat  

Wow! That sounds great (viz., the study of the Abhidhanappadipika)

As you know, I've been considering (eventually) making an edition of
that for a Lao/Khmer audience --but I was rather surprised to find
significant differences between the different S.E. Asian editions
(including differences between various Sinhalese editions).

I met with the Rt. Hon. Mme Filliozat yesterday --my first time seeing
her in the flesh.  We spoke for about two hours on various subjects
relating to Pali MS --including shared complaints about various
libraries in Asia.

Like myself (and unlike McDaniel) she had enormous difficulty in
gaining access to the Bangkok National Library --and was eventually
refused access entirely.

E.M.

1990
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.plus.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:12 pm 
Subject: Burmese mss ?

Dear list,

A colleague on another list has asked for confirmation that the mss
reproduced here is Burmese and would be interested in some idea abou the
contents.  Can anybody help ?


http://www.asondheim.org/manu22.jpg
http://www.asondheim.org/manu23.jpg


Many thanks,
Stephen Hodge

1991
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:59 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?  

> A colleague on another list has asked for confirmation that the mss
> reproduced here is Burmese ...

It isn't Burmese, the script is Lao ("Lao-Tham"/"Lao-Dhamma"), which
effectively means that it comes from no further west than Northern
Thailand (i.e., it certainly doesn't look Shan).

It also doesn't look very old --notwithstanding the holes bored away
by the termites.  I would presume it's of entirely modern origin.

E.M.

1992
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:19 pm 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?  

Eisel,

I had a look at the first page but I'm unfamiliar with the script. Some of
the letters look Burmese though such as the 't' and 'p'. The letters appear
to have been written with a brush and are aesthetically pleasing too. If the
passage is in Pali, is there any chance you could transliterate the first
line or two into Velthuis? We could try and identify the passage.

Jim

> > A colleague on another list has asked for confirmation that the mss
> > reproduced here is Burmese ...
>
> It isn't Burmese, the script is Lao ("Lao-Tham"/"Lao-Dhamma"), which
> effectively means that it comes from no further west than Northern
> Thailand (i.e., it certainly doesn't look Shan).
>
> It also doesn't look very old --notwithstanding the holes bored away
> by the termites.  I would presume it's of entirely modern origin.
>
> E.M.

1993
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:03 am 
Subject: SEA Calendrical systems, E.J. Brill  

In response to the query posted on my website, Michel Lorrillard
(EFEO) was kind enough to put into my hands the "brief but
compendious" work by J.C. Eade, _The Calendrical Systems of South-East
Asia_.

This is an exceedingly enjoyable work on an exceedingly technical
subject.  The author is clearly aware that most in his (limited)
audience will have no aptitude for math, and he takes tremendous care
to make each stage of each equation
pellucid-to-the-point-of-pandering.

For those who don't want to do the math by hand, the author has also
provided a (macintosh) computer programme at the following location:

ftp://coombs.anu.edu.au/coombspapers/otherarchives/asian-studies-archives/seasia\
-archives/software

I will (eventually) incorporate some notes and diagrams expanding on
Eade's work (providing some things he omits to do, e.g., a glossary
and some over-arching diagrams of how the different numeral-base
systems interlock, etc. --but not reproducing any of his own diagrams,
which I would consider intellectually dishonest, etc.).

I should also like to mention in passing that I have found several
truly excellent articles by Michael Vickery in the past few weeks, and
I would very much like to obtain a list of his complete works (or to
have his e-mail address to ask him for the same directly) so that I
might work my way through them all.

E.M.

1994
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:26 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?  

Jim,

Yes, it resembles Burmese precisely because it is Lao.

Many of the Lao-Dhamma glyphs are "functionally identical" to Burmese,
and others are closely derived from Mon antecedents --borrowings from
Khmer are largely stylistic rather than functional (e.g., "hooks"
added to vowel markers).

As McDaniel would point out (I assume he is too bored with the subject
to do so) there is no easy way to pinpoint the origin (from the script
alone) in a wide geographical range from Chiang Mai (Northern
Thailand) to Luang Prabang (Northern Laos) --however, this is a moot
point for the block of wood in question, as the glyphs seem to me
entirely modern (i.e., I believe I even know the textbook that the
scribe is using as a model for the (telling) glyph "n").

The portion of text that I looked at was either largely or wholly in Pali.

No, I don't have time to transliterate it _gratis_ (my fee is $350 /
hour); nobody has given me any reason to believe this block of wood is
of any historical interest or practical utility, so it's pretty low on
my list of priority documents to transliterate (i.e., compared to a
Kacc MS from Savannakhet).

E.M.

1995
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:36 am 
Subject: Re: SEA Calendrical systems, E.J. Brill  

Eade's work while a good introduction is surpassed by several
newer and more comprehensive Thai books on the subject. He
does provide a really nice glossary and good sample texts. It
provides examples from colophons from Northern Thailand;
however, it is useless for literary references to omens,
auspicious dates, Siamese material, etc. Furthermore, the
entire issue of the "second" and "third" stages of
astrological influence on Southeast Asian systems is elided.
There are also several Khmer and Siamese systems which are
well-known by practitioners in the region which are not
mentioned by Eade. Still, despite these limitations, it is a
good book and a fun read.

I checked out the on-line program a couple of years ago and it
didn't seem to work. In fact, it didn't even open when I
checked more recently. I just went back doing it by hand. What
program did you use? Can you provide technical assistance?

Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:03:34 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] SEA Calendrical systems, E.J. Brill
>To: "Willem Paling" <willem.paling@gmail.com>,
palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Michel Lorrillard"
<lorrilla@loxinfo.co.th>, "Phillip Ernest"
<sarebbestato@rediffmail.com>
>
>In response to the query posted on my website, Michel Lorrillard
>(EFEO) was kind enough to put into my hands the "brief but
>compendious" work by J.C. Eade, _The Calendrical Systems of
South-East
>Asia_.
>

1996
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:26 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?  

I can't comment, I was never sent the photo/image. I have no
idea what you are talking about.
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:26:05 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Burmese mss ?
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Jim,
>
>Yes, it resembles Burmese precisely because it is Lao.
>

1997
From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:45 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?

Hi Jim,&#13;&#10;&#13;&#10;> If the passage is in Pali, is there any chance you
could&#13;&#10;transliterate the first line or two into Velthuis? We could try
and&#13;&#10;identify the passage.&#13;&#10;&#13;&#10;This is my second
attempt
to post this... The text is the standard&#13;&#10;kammavaacaa formula recited by
the sangha when imposing 6-day maanatta&#13;&#10;on a bhikkhu who has
committed
a sanghaadisesa offence. Kammavaacaa&#13;&#10;collections seem to form a very
high proportion of the bai laan that&#13;&#10;end up in the tourist
markets.&#13;&#10;&#13;&#10;Best
wishes,&#13;&#10;Dhammanando&#13;&#10;


1998
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.plus.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:38 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?

Eisel,

Thanks for your comments on this mss.
However, I am puzzled by your comment:

> this is a moot point for the block of wood in question

A closer look at the second URL in particular will reveal that the mss is
actually written on black-sized cloth, not wood.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

1999
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:50 am 
Subject: Re: Burmese mss ?

Hi Jim,

> If the passage is in Pali, is there any chance you could transliterate
> the first line or two into Velthuis? We could try and identify the
> passage.

The text is the standard kammavaacaa formula recited by the sangha when
imposing maanatta on a bhikkhu who has committed a sanghaadisesa
offence.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

2000
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 4:43 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Burmese mss ?  

This is a strange piece for a number of reasons. I just
looked at it a few minutes ago, since I had never seen the
original message (thanks for sending it to me Jim).It is in
Pali (Kammavaca), clearly written in Yuan script. However, it
was produced probably no earlier than the 1930s on Pap Saa
paper (the insect holes in the Pap Saa paper came after the
writing as the cracks and holes run through the writing).
These insects can eat through the paper pretty quickly. You
often see it on Pap Saa and woodpulp paper more than 40-50
years old. This type of black Pap Saa was first used in the
1830s. The famous Thong Noi edition produced under the
direction of Raama III and later promoted by Raama IV was the
well-known edition composed on this black paper in gold
script. However, the Thong Noi, finished about 1843 (by Mae
Chi scribes actually) was in Khom script. This piece seems to
be a Northern Thai adaptation of the Thong Noi edition. Or
perhaps held that as an ideal. There are three very good hai
books on the history of these manuscripts, editions, paper
quality, etc. Sadly, all three are out of print and hard to
find now. I can send the citations if anyone is interested.

Reproducing famous Siamese editions in Yuan script became
popular in the 1930s (Chiang Mai officially became a
Changwat/Province in 1929). With the condition of the Pap Saa
paper and the gold writing (actual flecks of gold used to
produce it and it lasts a long time), I would guess (and this
can only be a guess without actually feeling the paper and the
script) it could be as old as 1935ish. There was another
period of Northern Thai repoduction of Siamese manuscripts in
the 1990s (around time of 700 anniversary of CM and the
"Amazing Thailand" tourist campaign). But, of course mss. for
ceremoninal purposes were produced regularly. However, this
paper is evenly eaten and the script was not added to old paper.

Phra Dhammanando is absolutely correct, Kammavaacaa are the
most popular texts on the tourist market (this is because the
Mon and Burmese Kammavaacaa are so elaborate and became very
popular for collectors (as far back as the colonial period in
Burma -- Noel Singer has written about this). The Thai
followed this popularity. However, this was not necessary a
tourist production. Just as Burmese Kammavaacaa were not
tourist productions, but were just produced in such great
numbers they flooded the market. They are easy to find at
River City in Bangkok and to a lesser extent on Chaloen Krung,
The Old Siam Mall, the book section of Chatuchak market and
sometimes in the small amulet market near Wat Thidawanaram on
Thanon Mahachai. Chiang Mai's Night Bazaar has an older
section near the Mae Ping hotel which also has some Burmese
manuscripts for tourists.

The Paali is clear, the writing is
well-done (usually tourist pieces are poorly written and based
on vernacular Kammavaacaa Nissaya mss. which are much more
common in the area to copy). Moreover, most "fakes" are
produced on wood-pulp paper soaked in coffee (to age it) and
then the edges are burnt slightly. Moreover, the text of most
fakes in the region of Northern Thailand, is Tibetan! This is
because Manali people (from North Central Nepal) are the
biggest tourist market traders (mostly semi-precious gems, but
also other items like fake manuscripts) and move and trade
from Katmandu to Singapore to Melacca to Chiang Mai to Bangkok
and now even to Siem Reap, Luang Phrabang and Hoi An. That is
why you can largely find the same tourist items in Katmandu
and Chiang Mai. Prista Ratanapruck has written about this.
Tourists will buy almost anything fake, it doesn't take this
much work to fool them. This manuscript is a little too
well-produced in my opinion to be produced for tourists.
Instead, I guess that it was produced as ceremonial gift
(probably in honor of an ordination) and then sold later by a
lay family in control of a monastic library.  The paper is old
(and doesn't seem to be unnaturally aged). Maybe 1935ish. Its
a common text though of course, hundreds of copies, but black
pap saa with gold writing in Yuan is odd. Thanks for the photo.

Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:45:09 -0000
>From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Re: Burmese mss ?
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Jim,

> If the passage is in Pali, is there any chance you could
transliterate the first line or two into Velthuis? We could
try and identify the passage.

This is my second attempt to post this... The text is the standard
kammavaacaa formula recited by the sangha when imposing 6-day
maanatta on a bhikkhu who has committed a sanghaadisesa offence.
Kammavaacaa collections seem to form a very high proportion of the bai
laan that end up in the tourist markets.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando
______________
Dr. Justin McDaniel
Dept. of Religious Studies
2617 Humanities Building
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
951-827-4530
justinm@ucr.edu

2001
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 4:52 am 
Subject: Re: SEA Calendrical systems, E.J. Brill  

Hi Justin,

   (1) I'm glad to hear that Eade's book has been surpassed --I, too,
am aware of certain limitations as I am working my way through it
(although my interests are different from yours).

   (2) I *do not* find that it provides a good glossary --on the
contrary, I think this is precisely what it lacks the most!
   Most shockingly, it omits any diacritical markings for the Sanskrit
terms! It would be quite a lot of work for me to "guess" any of the
correct spellings (be they Burmese, Thai, Lao, Khmer, or Sanskrit!)
given the vagueness of the romanization.  He presumes that you already
have a shelf of other works to provide you with the original spellings
(non-transliterated) of the terminology!

   (3) The computer programme requries Mac OS-9 *or* a current Mac
(viz., OS-10, "osx") with the supplemental software installed to
emulate OS9.  In other words: it is obsolete, and annoying to run
unless you have a computer of the same vintage.

   I am trying to establish a platform-independent solution by
programming the equations directly into a spreadsheet that could be
used on any computer (e.g., with the free software OpenOffice, or
MS-Excel).

   However, I think that he does not provide *all* of the equations I
would need to do this, as he frequently alludes to two other works,
and leaves the math tacit so as not to rehearse their findings.

   Thus, if you want to Xerox copy yet more resources and mail them to
me here in Vientiane, I will probably be able to put them to good use.

   Even I am astonished that I find this kind of work interesting --but I do.

E.M.

2002
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 5:00 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Burmese mss ?  

Yes, ornate Kammavaca MS are common precisely because this was the one
type of manuscript that was "held up" ostentatiously before a crowd
--and served as a literal prop in various ceremonies.

Mme Filliozat and I compared notes on this subject; we both had mixed
feelings of admiration (and, perhaps, contempt) for the Mon kammavaca
that are ostentaiously prepared with both black and red laq layered
onto various semi-precious materials --sometimes with the addition of
gold --and frequently in lettering that is decorative to the point of
being near-incomprehensible.

In any case, precisely because they are so ornate, Kammavaca texts are
collected out of all proportion to their scholarly merit --as Justin's
comments indicate.

But if you're the kind of tourist looking to illegally expropriate a
piece of cultural heritage that you can't read, don't appreciate, and
won't ever understand anyway, I suppose "you get what you pay for"
with a Kammavaca.

BTW, I assumed that it was wood simply because of the appearance of
the insect-bored holes.  As stated previously (viz., before Justin's
posting) I also believe that it is 20th century, based on the glyph
forms alone.

E.M.

2003
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Sun Oct 1, 2006 5:16 am 
Subject: Re: SEA Calendrical systems, E.J. Brill  

Thanks for the technical help here. As for the good books,
they are all in Thai. They are available in Bangkok in the old
book stores near Tha Prajan as well as a couple indepent book
dealers near Wat Sraket. A couple are really massive tomes,
but well worth it I think. Next time you make it down to BKK,
check them out. I can bring a couple to you next time I am in
Vientiane, which could be in November, but more likely next
June. Soi 7 off of Oon Nut in BKK also has some good stuff for
horasat enthusiasts.
Its a good subject, keep digging.
Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 15:52:33 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] SEA Calendrical systems, E.J. Brill
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Hi Justin,
>
>  (1) I'm glad to hear that Eade's book has been surpassed
--I, too,
>am aware of certain limitations as I am working my way through it
>(although my interests are different from yours).
>

2004
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 2, 2006 11:34 pm 
Subject: misc. scholarly update from Vientiane  

I'm expecting a dedicated work on Shan script and its historical
interaction with Pali to arrive in the mail "any day now" --it is, I
believe, by a Shan author, and printed locally (thus, obscure).

Reading various (extremely impressive) articles by Michael Vickery
lately, I noticed that he had written a "Part 3" to his "Piltdown Man"
series (i.e., not included with the collected articles in the Siam
Society volume on the RK inscription), with a special focus on the
development of orthography in Thai & Khmer epigraphy (viz., with a
view to RK) and, apparently, a supplemental thesis on the neglected
importance of Cham script in the evolution of written Thai.  HOWEVER,
neither the EFEO nor Michel's private collection had a copy of the
issue of the J.S.S. in question.

I also found a copy of that work on legal texts of S.E.A. (viz., Palic
Dharmashastras of Burmese, Mon, Thai, and Khmer ancestry) --I believe
the editor of that volume briefly contributed to this list?  In any
case, it contained several excellent articles, foremost among them the
editor's own contribution and also an exceedingly detailed study by
Vickery.

My copy of Jit Phumisak's _The Real Face of Thai Feudalism_ (in
translation) arrived from Chiang Mai (thanks to M.L., EFEO).  The
introduction by Craig J. Reynolds contains a great deal of useful
information, however, I must confess that I find the style of the
prose excruciating to read (and this is from someone who can "enjoy" a
mathematical study on epigraphic calendrical systems!).

I had also my second meeting with Mme Filliozat; much useful
information and "scholarly gossip" shared.  In return for a CD-ROM of
materials I had given her, she offered me her various catalogues in
digital format --viz., a potentially priceless resource, but one that
I am unlikely to ever use, as I have no plans to travel to Paris,
Taiwan, London, etc., nor even Bangkok!

From a garret in Ban Haisok,

E.M.

2005
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 12:58 am 
Subject: Re: misc. scholarly update from Vientiane  

I think you mean the book by Sao Saimong Mangrai. Its not as
impressive or comprehensive and the title suggests. As for
your request, the entire run of the JSS is easy enough to
find. Contact the office of the Siam Society and they can sell
back issues and mail them to you. CMU library has the entire
run as does Mahasarakham Univ. library (both closer than BKK,
well, actually the train to BKK is faster than the bus to CM).
At the Siam Society Library in BKK and the Chula. library you
can pay to photocopy the issues as well for a small fee.
Student membership is also only 500 baht still I think. Its
well-worth it if you want to find SEA Studies material in
German, French, or English. Also has a nice, but small,
collection of mss. For Vickery's complete works, the Siam
Society library would be the place to look. The CKS in Phnom
Penh should have them all as well. However, I can understand
your reluctance to pay the border/visa fees to go in and out
of Laos.
Sadly, Laos is a hard place to find complete sets of anything.
I'll try to bring some next time I go to Laos.
Thanks for the report,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 10:34:54 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] misc. scholarly update from Vientiane
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>I'm expecting a dedicated work on Shan script and its historical
>interaction with Pali to arrive in the mail "any day now"
--it is, I
>believe, by a Shan author, and printed locally (thus, obscure).
>

2006
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 12:07 pm 
Subject: Re: misc. scholarly update from Vientiane  

Eisel,

Since you don't give the editor's name, one can't tell if he is the same one
who joined our list last November and contributed a response (message no.
1476) to your comments on Dhammasattha literature. This is Dietrich
Christian Lammerts who is still a member of our group but I doubt he has
been receiving or reading any of this year's messages so far. His mail
server in Myanmar was blocking the messages from this group and I set his
mail preference to "no mail" as a temporary measure until his return to
Cornell. I'll be checking with him soon.

Jim

> I also found a copy of that work on legal texts of S.E.A. (viz., Palic
> Dharmashastras of Burmese, Mon, Thai, and Khmer ancestry) --I believe
> the editor of that volume briefly contributed to this list?  In any
> case, it contained several excellent articles, foremost among them the
> editor's own contribution and also an exceedingly detailed study by
> Vickery.

2007
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Oct 3, 2006 12:30 pm 
Subject: Re: misc. scholarly update from Vientiane  

Christian Lammerts (he doesn't use Dietrich) is a friend and a
very good young scholar, especially of Dhammathat literature
in Burma. He is very busy with research and writing right now.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 12:07:17 -0400
>From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] misc. scholarly update from Vientiane
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Eisel,
>
>Since you don't give the editor's name, one can't tell if he
is the same one
>who joined our list last November and contributed a response
(message no.
>1476) to your comments on Dhammasattha literature. This is
Dietrich
>Christian Lammerts who is still a member of our group but I
doubt he has

2008
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 12:42 am 
Subject: Mangala commentary & Lao misc  

To start with, Justin (& all assembled), I had been meaning to ask
about the (Lao-Pali) commentary on the Mangala-sutta, found under
various titles starting with Mangala-attha-.

Nyanatustia names its origin as Chiang Mai, but the Dict. of proper
names attributes its authorship to 16th century Laos.  I know almost
nothing about the text, but recently discovered that I *do* have a
complete e-text for it --and it is a very lengthy treatise indeed.

As this is possibly one of the very few Pali compositions from Laos,
has there ever been an interest in an edition / translation here
--even if it is inspired more by nationalism than the text itself?

> ... as does Mahasarakham Univ. library (both closer than BKK,

Yes, I should find some excuse to visit the collection at Mahasarakham
(but, to me, it will always be "Mahasalagam").  Mme Filliozat was very
much surprised when I explained that a large number of
Vientiane-origin MS are available there, as well as at Yasothon, and,
of course, in the BKK National Library (due to the events of 1828,
etc.).  She was denied access to the National Library (in BKK), and
had resolved not to try again, despite my encouragement that she do
so.

> well, actually the train to BKK is faster than the bus to CM).

Especially now that ALL THE MINOR BORDER CROSSINGS BETWEEN
LAOS AND
THAILAND ARE CLOSED!  Even the border at Huay Xai (viz., on the
Mekong, near the so-called golden traingle) is now closed, due to the
recent military regime change in Bangkok.

> The CKS in Phnom
> Penh should have them all as well.

*Ahem!* The CKS is in Siem Reap, not Phnom Penh!  BTW, I finally
received a belated and apologetic reply from the Institute Bhouddique
(in Phnom Penh, not Sem Reap) --indeed, from no less a person than the
"Chief of Mores" (quite a title)!

> However, I can understand
> your reluctance to pay the border/visa fees to go in and out
> of Laos.

This also relates to the practical difficulties of being employed at a
Lao government agency --and a daily publication at that.  I am not on
vacation, but conducting my studies in the time left over by my "job".

E.M.

2009
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 4:32 am 
Subject: Re: Mangala commentary & Lao misc  

Sorry, i mispoke, Siem Reap not PP. However, Philippe has
collected some good stuff as you know and it maybe a good
place to find the secondary sources you need. One of his
students will hopefully come study for his PhD at UCR next
year. Did you find it useful when you were there?

I assume that the PDPN is referring to "Laos" as "greater
Laos" (meaning Northern Thailand and Laos). I'll check in my
office. The PDPN is relatively useless for Pali material in
Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia. A number of scholars called
Buddhist texts found in/composed in N.Thailand as "Lao." In
fact, N.Thailand was even referred to as Lao by Siamese
officials, one of the main missionary newspapers in Chiang Mai
was called the "Lao News." I published something about this (i
think in that collected volume by the National Library of Laos
last year edited by David). In there, I think I also talk
about Saddhatissa who referred to all the texts he found in
Chiang Mai as "Lao Buddhist texts." The Mangala-attha-dipani
(if that is what you are referring to) is usually attributed
to 1516 (or so) Chiang Mai. One of the "four classics" of the
so-called "Chiang Mai Golden Age of Pali Scholarship." Daniel
Veidlinger writes about this in his new book from U.Hawaii
Press (Spreading the Dhamma). I write about this text and its
use in education in a book that hopefully will printed in the
next few months. There are dozens of new Thai editions,
translations, etc. Dr. Supaphanh na Bangchang has written
extensively about the text in Thai. An English edition would
be very helpful and welcome. Its a good project. Please do! We
need one. It is the most common text, besides the
Dhammapada-Atthakatha, used in modern Thai monastic education.
It forms the basis of several ecclesiastical exams.

Best and thanks for the update,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:42:00 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: [palistudy] Mangala commentary & Lao misc
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>To start with, Justin (& all assembled), I had been meaning
to ask
>about the (Lao-Pali) commentary on the Mangala-sutta, found under
>various titles starting with Mangala-attha-.
>

2010
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 6:21 am 
Subject: Re: Mangala commentary & Lao misc  

> The Mangala-attha-dipani
> (if that is what you are referring to) is usually attributed
> to 1516 (or so) Chiang Mai. One of the "four classics" of the
> so-called "Chiang Mai Golden Age of Pali Scholarship."
> ...
> It forms the basis of several ecclesiastical exams.

Oh, right --this is the text with a lot of cosmological material, isn't it?

I think that I once read an article stating that a comparative of
study of the Mangala-dipani and canonical sources (such as the
Aga~n~na sutta, etc.) was a desideratum.

The EFEO seems to have a "major" (viz., in scale) Pali text of Thai
composition/origin (seemingly attributed to Nyana-Kitti by default) in
the Kaccayana tradition, with a title along the lines of
"Yojana-mula-kaccayana"; I have asked that Filliozat send me the
digital photos of it (there is no printed edition, according to the
EFEODATA file) --but I am unlikely to take it on as a major project
(as I have other major projects underway...).

E.M.

2011
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 12:17 pm 
Subject: Re: Mangala commentary & Lao misc  

Mangala-attha-dipani is not a cosmological text and it doesn't
have much of that material in it. Although it is considered a
text that protects the entire Buddhavacana. It is more of an
anthology of canonical and other quotes based on a expansive
commentary on the Mangalasutta. It was, and is, considered a
handbook for the canon, esp. the suttas (although not
comprehensive or even systematic). The text is attributed to
Sirimangala of Chiang Mai. It became part of the monastic
curriculum in Siam early on as well. There are a lot of other
texts, mostly grammatica attributed to Nanakitti. He was most
likely a contemporary (and maybe friend) of Sirimangala. Those
two, and Ratanapanna, are lauded as the three great Pali
composers of early 16th century Chiang Mai.
Best,
jm

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:21:15 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] Mangala commentary & Lao misc
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>> The Mangala-attha-dipani
>> (if that is what you are referring to) is usually attributed
>> to 1516 (or so) Chiang Mai. One of the "four classics" of the
>> so-called "Chiang Mai Golden Age of Pali Scholarship."
>> ...

2012
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 2:26 pm 
Subject: Re: misc. scholarly update from Vientiane  

Hi Justin and all,

A most unusual (auspicious?) coincidence has taken place regarding the
mentioning of Christian Lammerts' name yesterday. Without me or anyone else
from the group having had contacted him, I received an email from him this
morning at 9:23 am EDT with a request to resume receiving the group emails.
Christian has assured me that no one had contacted him.

Justin, I'm still waiting to hear from Mark Allon about his subscription
request.

Best wishes,
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: <justinm@ucr.edu>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] misc. scholarly update from Vientiane


> Christian Lammerts (he doesn't use Dietrich) is a friend and a
> very good young scholar, especially of Dhammathat literature
> in Burma. He is very busy with research and writing right now.
> Best,
> jm
>

2013
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 4:56 pm 
Subject: Re: misc. scholarly update from Vientiane  

I am will ask Mark to write you. I thought he did.
Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:26:26 -0400
>From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] misc. scholarly update from Vientiane
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Hi Justin and all,
>
>A most unusual (auspicious?) coincidence has taken place
regarding the
>mentioning of Christian Lammerts' name yesterday. Without me
or anyone else
>from the group having had contacted him, I received an email
from him this
>morning at 9:23 am EDT with a request to resume receiving the
group emails.
>Christian has assured me that no one had contacted him.
>

2014
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Oct 4, 2006 11:00 pm 
Subject: Re: Mangala commentary & Lao misc  

Hi Justin,

   Thanks for the further description of the Mangala-attha-dipani --I'm
glad that I "forced" a few further comments out of you, as I clearly
had it confused with another text (and, in fact, knew nothing about
this one).

   I already know a fair bit about Kitti's work --cf. the completely
dismissive gloss his grammatical works earn in Hinuber's _Handbook_!

   My impression of the unpublished yojana-mula-kaccayana is simply
that attributing it to Kitti "by default" is somewhat irresponsible
--although it sometimes seems that nobody else in Thailand ever knew
enough Pali to compose an original work of this kind, we must not give
in to the temptations of such cynicism!

E.M.

2015
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 1:45 pm 
Subject: SV: Mangala commentary & Lao misc  

Apparently he wrote dipanis. There is a few MSS of Kaccayanarupadipani still
in existence. It is comprehensive, houndreds of folios. I have not yet
managed to see a microfilm of it, much less one of the original MSS. A 15th
century copy has allegedly been found in Thailand (Chiang Mai).

OP

2016
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Oct 5, 2006 11:00 pm 
Subject: Other obscure Kaccayana sources  

Dr Pind,

> There is a few MSS of Kaccayanarupadipani still
> in existence. It is comprehensive, houndreds of folios. I have not yet
> managed to see a microfilm of it...

To speak of another obscure Kacc source: have you looked at the
Yojana-mula-kaccayana MS that the EFEO has (and has digitized)?  [I
assume the original full title was Yojana-attha-mula-kaccayana, BTW?]

Filliozat is eager to share this with anyone willing to do the
philological groundwork.

E.M.

2017
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Fri Oct 6, 2006 10:12 am 
Subject: SV: Other obscure Kaccayana sources  

I have not looked at the Yojana-mula-kaccayana MS. If the yojana (a ct.
focused on morphological-cum-syntactical analyses in the manner of other
yojanas) is on mulakaccayana, it may well be on the suttas alone. That would
be interesting to find out. Unfortunately I have no time at the moment for
this kind of research. However, if Filliozat would be willing to share this
with me at some point in the not too distant future, I would be very glad to
study it. As a matter of fact, if I ever get around to doing it, I would
like to write a survey all major post-Vimalabuddhi Pali grammars.

O.P.

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 6. oktober 2006 05:00
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Other obscure Kaccayana sources

Dr Pind,

> There is a few MSS of Kaccayanarupadipani still in existence. It is
> comprehensive, houndreds of folios. I have not yet managed to see a
> microfilm of it...

To speak of another obscure Kacc source: have you looked at the
Yojana-mula-kaccayana MS that the EFEO has (and has digitized)?  [I assume
the original full title was Yojana-attha-mula-kaccayana, BTW?]

Filliozat is eager to share this with anyone willing to do the philological
groundwork.

E.M.

2018
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:09 am 
Subject: Mahidol CD

Dear list,

I have the first version (1994) of the Mahidol CD of Pali texts called
Budsir, MS DOS edition. Is there a more recent Windows version? And are
there other means of accessing an electronic version of the Thai edition?

Regards
Mark


Dr Mark Allon
Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
University of Sydney

2019
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:50 am 
Subject: Re: Mahidol CD  

Welcome Mark,

> I have the first version (1994) of the Mahidol CD of Pali texts called
> Budsir, MS DOS edition. Is there a more recent Windows version? And are
> there other means of accessing an electronic version of the Thai edition?

Yes, there is a Windows version. Information on it can be accessed from:

http://www.budsir.org/budsir-main.html

There is also a searchable online version that you can log in to from:

http://www.budsir.org/program

I have the Budsir IV for MS-DOS. It works on my older computers but my new
WindowsXP computer won't install the old program even from the DOS command
prompt.

Best wishes,
Jim

2020
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:21 am 
Subject: 1953 Khmer Kaccayana  

It is reported to me by the Buddhist Institute in Phnom Penh that
Kaccayana has already (!) been translated into modern Khmer.

The volume is titled _Kaccayanobhattamm_, printed 1953, translated by
the Venerable Chuen Nat.

If anyone has it within their power to tell me anything more about
this volume, please do so.  Correspondence with the E.F.E.O.'s Khmer
specialist on this point has --so far-- proved fruitless.

I would most of all like to confirm that this is a translation of the
Kaccayana-Vyakarana _per se_ (viz., a translaiton of the "Muul" text!)
--and not some other grammatical text, nor an original composition
loosely inspired by Kacc. , etc. etc.

E.M.

2021
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:35 am 
Subject: Re: Mahidol CD

Dear Mark,

Last month someone gave me the newest version which is compatible with
Windows. However, in order to run, it needs to be booted from the CD drive
and the data can't be installed on the hard disk. To initially install the
program on one's computer, one first needs to load 2 floppy discettes that
are included in the package. The CD I got was produced in 1998 and there
appears to have been no production or development afterwards. I tried to ask
how to install the data on my harddisk to two of the professors in Bangkok
who are supposed to be in charge of the program but their e-mail addresses
are out of order.

With kind regards,
                             Bhikkhu Nyanatusita





On 11/10/06, Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Dear list,
>
> I have the first version (1994) of the Mahidol CD of Pali texts called
> Budsir, MS DOS edition. Is there a more recent Windows version? And are
> there other means of accessing an electronic version of the Thai edition?
>
> Regards
> Mark
>
>
> Dr Mark Allon
> Department of Indian Subcontinental Studies
> University of Sydney
>
--
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Forest Hermitage
Udawattakele
PO Box 61
Kandy
Sri Lanka


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2022
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:05 am 
Subject: Re: Mahidol CD  

Old DOS-based programs can be run under "emulation" --not only on
windows terminals, but also under Linux, Mac-OS, etc.

In fact, I think this is probably easier to do on a Mac than under
windows these days.

In any case, if you put "DOS emulator" into Google, you'll find
various applications that can assist in this.

You are probably better off extracting the raw text files from the
CD-ROM, and searching them with current technology.

E.M.

2023
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:16 am 
Subject: Re: Mahidol CD

Dear Bhante,

Thanks for your response. It would be a shame if it cannot be run from
the hard disk. I have been directed to the BUDSIR website by another
PaliStudy list respondent. One of our students who is in Thailand at the
moment may be able to get it with ease.

Best wishes
Mark


nyanatusita bhikkhu wrote:

>Dear Mark,
>
>Last month someone gave me the newest version which is compatible with
>Windows. However, in order to run, it needs to be booted from the CD drive
>and the data can't be installed on the hard disk. To initially install the
>program on one's computer, one first needs to load 2 floppy discettes that
>are included in the package. The CD I got was produced in 1998 and there
>appears to have been no production or development afterwards. I tried to ask
>how to install the data on my harddisk to two of the professors in Bangkok
>who are supposed to be in charge of the program but their e-mail addresses
>are out of order.
>
>With kind regards,
>                            Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>

2024
From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@padmacholing.plus.com> 
Date: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:55 pm 
Subject: Nicca

Dear all,

I am looking for a definition of "nicca" (permanence) in the Atthakatha or
elsewhere.  I have searched but nothing inmediately catches my attention.
Have I missed something perhaps.

Any guidance gratefully received.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge

2025
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:20 am 
Subject: The death of Sanskrit at Cambridge  

Well, we all know about the (lost) battle to save Pali studies at
Oxford, now, it seems, despite Dr. Smith, Cambridge University has put
the axe to Sanskrit entirely.

Don't beleive me? Read all about it:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2161235.cms

E.M.

2026
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:19 am 
Subject: Re: Mahidol CD  

At the risk of being boring, I compared notes on these technical
issues with Mme Filliozat (who is thoroughly familiar with all of the
CD-ROMs available --going back, in her words, to systems that required
Word Perfect version 4 many decades ago) --and when I demonstrated "my
own" system of searching pre-compiled Unicode PDFs, she was quite
taken with it.

Although PDF used to be a very difficult format to search, you can now
grind through them quite quickly with either OS-level search tools, or
applications; I both search Nikaya-specific PDFs (such as can be
downloaded from my website) and can collate these together if I want
to search the entire canon, etc.

If you want to search huge volumes of raw TXT/UTF (not PDF), I would
strongly suggest that you buy a copy of a high powered programming
editor, such as BBedit; although the reliability of PDF now makes this
less desirable.

I should also say that even DOS programs that require you to have the
disc in the drive (= refuse to read the data from the hard drive) can
and will be run by emulators --this is not a big deal.

E.M.

2027
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:16 am 
Subject: Re: Nicca  

Dear Stephen,

For a start, I found the following in the .tiikaa to the
Abhidhaanppadiipikaa:

naasabhaavena na icca.m na gantabba.m nicca.m, naasa.m vaa na gacchatiiti
nicca.m. (Abh-.t ad Abh 41 -- CSCD version 3 disk)

Here, the derivation of 'nicca.m' is: na + icca (f.p.p. of the verbal root
i -- go, move). I looked up 'nitya' in Apte's Skt. dictionary and found this
derivation on p.898: [niyamena niyata.m vaa bhava.m ni-ty-p; cf. P.
IV.2.104. vaart.]. I'm away from my library and can't look up the vaartika
for a few more days. Not sure if the 'ni' refers to the prefix or to a
coalescence of 'na' + 'i'. I'll look further and report back if I can find
more on what you're looking for--such as a definition or synonyms given in
the a.t.thakathaas or .tiikaas.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear all,
>
> I am looking for a definition of "nicca" (permanence) in the Atthakatha or
> elsewhere.  I have searched but nothing inmediately catches my attention.
> Have I missed something perhaps.
>
> Any guidance gratefully received.
>
> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge

2028
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:40 am 
Subject: Mabel Bode

Hello,

Would anyone know the year of the death of Dr. Mabel Haynes Bode? She
translated Geiger's Mahavamsa translation into English and did some studies
on Burmese Pali Literature, etc.

Thanks.

Bhikkhu Nyanatusita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2029
From: Dietrich Christian Lammerts <dcl33@cornell.edu> 
Date: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:51 am 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode lammerts_dc 

Hi,
Bode died in England on 20 January 1922. There is an obituary in the JRAS
for that year, pp 307-8.

Christian


On 10/16/06 8:40 AM, "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Would anyone know the year of the death of Dr. Mabel Haynes Bode? She
> translated Geiger's Mahavamsa translation into English and did some studies
> on Burmese Pali Literature, etc.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


--
Dietrich Christian Lammerts
Doctoral Student, Department of Asian Studies, Cornell University
Kahin Center for Advanced Research on Southeast Asia
640 Stewart Avenue
Ithaca, NY 14850 USA
DCL33@cornell.edu
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33

Fall 2006 Office Hours: Tues, Wed 11:10-12:30, 336 Rockefeller Hall



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2030
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:05 pm 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode

If someone has access to this issue of JRAS and can produce a pdf, I
would be very interested in getting a copy of this obituary. Henry
Luce's library and papers were bought by the National Library of
Australia. Pamela Gutman is currently working on these for a biography
of Luce. Amongst the papers is a bunch of correspondence between him and
Bode, but otherwise we have had difficulty finding out much about her.

Regards
Mark


Dietrich Christian Lammerts wrote:

>Hi,
>Bode died in England on 20 January 1922. There is an obituary in the JRAS
>for that year, pp 307-8.
>
>Christian
>
>
>On 10/16/06 8:40 AM, "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hello,
>>
>>Would anyone know the year of the death of Dr. Mabel Haynes Bode? She
>>translated Geiger's Mahavamsa translation into English and did some studies
>>on Burmese Pali Literature, etc.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>

2031
From: Dietrich Christian Lammerts <dcl33@cornell.edu> 
Date: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:25 pm 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode

I would be happy to produce a pdf of the JRAS Bode obituary for circulation
later this week. Jim, should I send this to you to post on the group
website? Otherwise I will upload it to my homepage.

Christian





On 10/16/06 5:05 PM, "Mark Allon" <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> If someone has access to this issue of JRAS and can produce a pdf, I
> would be very interested in getting a copy of this obituary. Henry
> Luce's library and papers were bought by the National Library of
> Australia. Pamela Gutman is currently working on these for a biography
> of Luce. Amongst the papers is a bunch of correspondence between him and
> Bode, but otherwise we have had difficulty finding out much about her.
>
> Regards
> Mark
>
--
Dietrich Christian Lammerts
Doctoral Student, Department of Asian Studies, Cornell University
Kahin Center for Advanced Research on Southeast Asia
640 Stewart Avenue
Ithaca, NY 14850 USA
DCL33@cornell.edu
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33

Fall 2006 Office Hours: Tues, Wed 11:10-12:30, 336 Rockefeller Hall


2032
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:58 pm 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode  

Christian,

I think it would be better to upload the pdf file to your homepage and post
the url to the group when you've done so. I'll then place a copy from your
page to the files section of the group's homepage. I'm sure a few of us,
besides Mark, will appreciate the opportunity of reading the obituary. It
wasn't so long ago I read Bode's article on Pali grammatical literature in
Burma in one of the early issues of JPTS.

Thanks and best wishes,
Jim

> I would be happy to produce a pdf of the JRAS Bode obituary for
> circulation
> later this week. Jim, should I send this to you to post on the group
> website? Otherwise I will upload it to my homepage.
>
> Christian

2033
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:03 am 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode

Dear Mark,

Please have a look at footnote 5 on this page about Gustav Holst:
http://www.gustavholst.info/journal/article-001.php?chapter=4

There also appears to be something on another page that I can't have access
to:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0040-2982(199312)2%3A187%3C15%3AH-AAMI
%3E2.0.CO\
%3B2-A

The Pali Literature of Burma by Bode has been scanned in and the BPS could
come with a new edition of it within a year. If anyone is interested in
helping with proofreading, please let me know.

Bhikkhu Nyanatusita


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2034
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:00 am 
Subject: Re: Nicca

On 15 Oct 2006, at 06:55, Stephen Hodge wrote:

>  I am looking for a definition of "nicca" (permanence) in the
> Atthakatha or
>  elsewhere. I have searched but nothing inmediately catches my
> attention.

You need to look at the commentarial accounts of eternalism and
nibbaana; in the former the stock definition of nicca is "separated
from arising and falling away" (uppaadavayarahita), while in the latter
it is "on account of the absence of production, ageing and death"
(pabhavajaraamara.naana.m abhaavato).

Some examples:

Brahmajaalasutta-va.n.nanaa on the phrase "nicco dhuvo sassato
avipari.naamadhammo" 

_nicco_ ti-aadiisu tassa upapatti.m apassanto _nicco_ ti vadati,
mara.na.m apassanto _dhuvo_ ti, sadaabhaavato _sassato_ ti,
jaraavasenaapi vipari.naamassa abhaavato avipari.naamadhammoti.
(DA. i. 112-3)

Sub-commentary to the same 

_amara.m nicca.m dhuvan_ ti sassatavevacanaani. mara.naabhaavena vaa
_amara.m, _ uppaadaabhaavena sabbathaapi atthitaaya _nicca.m, _
thira.t.thena vikaaraabhaavena _dhuva.m.

Sabbaasavasutta-va.n.nanaa on the same 

_nicco_ ti uppaadavayarahito. _dhuvo_ ti thiro saarabhuuto. _sassato_
ti sabbakaaliko. _avipari.naamadhammo_ ti attano pakatibhaava.m
avijahanadhammo, kaka.n.tako viya naanappakaarata.m naapajjati.
_sassatisaman_ ti candasuuriyasamuddamahaapathaviipabbataa
lokavohaarena sassatiyoti vuccanti. sassatiihi sama.m _sassatisama.m_.
(MA. i. 71; & Pa.tiA. ii. 419)

The Visuddhimagga's nibbaanakathaa on the permanence of nibbaana 

pabhavajaraamara.naana.m abhaavato _nicca.m_. nibbaanasseva
a.nu-aadiinampi niccabhaavaapattiiti ce. na, hetuno abhaavaa.
nibbaanassa niccattaa te niccaati ce. na, hetulakkha.nassa
anupapattito. niccaa uppaadaadiina.m abhaavato nibbaana.m viyaati ce.
na, a.nuaadiina.m asiddhattaa.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando

2035
From: Dietrich Christian Lammerts <dcl33@cornell.edu> 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:26 pm 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode

Hi,
The JRAS Bode obituary may now be downloaded as a .pdf from the following
site:

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33/buddhism.html

I'll keep the file up for several weeks. I hope it will be of some use,
Christian

--
Dietrich Christian Lammerts
Doctoral Student, Department of Asian Studies, Cornell University
Kahin Center for Advanced Research on Southeast Asia
640 Stewart Avenue
Ithaca, NY 14850 USA
DCL33@cornell.edu
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33

Fall 2006 Office Hours: Tues, Wed 11:10-12:30, 336 Rockefeller Hall

2036
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:53 am 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode  

Hi Chrisian,

I'm having problems downloading the pdf file which seems to be corrupt in
some way. The bottom half (p. 308) comes out okay but the top half (p.307)
is missing and my computer was unable to save the file properly. In fact,
the computer froze up in trying to do so and I had to restart it. Have you
tried testing the file from your website?

Jim

> Hi,
> The JRAS Bode obituary may now be downloaded as a .pdf from the following
> site:
>
> http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33/buddhism.html
>
> I'll keep the file up for several weeks. I hope it will be of some use,
> Christian

2037
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:32 pm 
Subject: Re: Mabel Bode  

Dear Members,

Christian responded off-list and the problem has now been resolved. The file
itself is fine and my guess is that the initial problem was related to a bad
Internet connection at the time. For safekeeping and future downloads, I
have uploaded the file to the group's homepage at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/files/misc/Bode.JRAS.obit.pdf

Please contact me if you encounter any problems downloading or locating the
file (should it be relocated).

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi Chrisian,
>
> I'm having problems downloading the pdf file which seems to be corrupt in
> some way. The bottom half (p. 308) comes out okay but the top half (p.307)
> is missing and my computer was unable to save the file properly. In fact,
> the computer froze up in trying to do so and I had to restart it. Have you
> tried testing the file from your website?
>
> Jim
>

2038
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:27 pm 
Subject: Re: Nicca  

Stephen,

Now that I have full access to my books again, I can follow up on my earlier
message. I think Ven. Dhammanando has provided sufficient material from the
commentaries and so there is no need for me to look for more. I'd just like
to add more to my earlier remarks on the Pali and Sanskrit derivations:

> I looked up 'nitya' in Apte's Skt. dictionary and found this
> derivation on p.898: [niyamena niyata.m vaa bhava.m ni-ty-p; cf. P.
> IV.2.104. vaart.]. ... Not sure if the 'ni' refers to the prefix or to a
> coalescence of 'na' + 'i'.

"ni-ty-p" should read ni-tya-p, my mistake. The taddhita suffix 'tyap' (the
'p' is indicatory and dropped) is added to the prefix 'ni' to give us
'nitya'. Paa.n IV.2.104 states: avyayaattyap (tyap after an indeclinable).
The first vaartika states: tyabnerdhruve (tyap after 'ni' in (the sense of)
dhruva -- fixed). This is all very clear and straightforward.

> naasabhaavena na icca.m na gantabba.m nicca.m, naasa.m vaa na gacchatiiti
> nicca.m. (Abh-.t ad Abh 41 -- CSCD version 3 disk)

How it is derived in Pali is problematic. In checking some of the native
Pali grammars, the derivation is treated differently from the above. Kacc-v
638 (Burmese) gives "nitana.m nicca.m"; Mmd on Kacc 638: "niccanti niti
nicce tiimassa ruupa.m"; Ruup 660: "niti nicce nicca.m"; Sd 1260:
"sata-nata-nitato tyo. sacca.m, nacca.m, nicca.m". I'm not able to find an
entry for 'nitana.m', 'nita', or 'niti' in a dictionary. Perhaps 'nitana.m'
is derived from ni+tan?

Best wishes,
Jim

2039
From: "nyanatusita bhikkhu" <nyanatusita@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:04 am 
Subject: Re: Nicca

Hello,

I would like to read the following review by Charles Duroiselle on
Mabel Bode's Pali Literature of Burma: Duroiselle C. 1911, Review of
Bode 1909, JBuRS I, i, pp. 119-21. If anyone has this article, would
it be possible to scan it and post it?
K.R. Norman quotes from the article in A Philological Approach to Buddhism.

Kind regards,
                     Bhikkhu Nyanatusita

--
Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
Forest Hermitage
Udawattakele
PO Box 61
Kandy
Sri Lanka

2040
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:49 am 
Subject: SV: Nicca  

Hello,

As Jim explains Pali nicca is derived from ni + tya. The Paninian rule is
beyond doubt. However, ni is not etymologically identical with the
preposition ni that denotes a downward action. It appears to denote
something that is within something else, something internal and essential,
hence unalterable. This fits very well with recorded usage. The grammarians,
however, assumed that they were describing the same morpheme. There are
Vedic and IE cognates, though. One may compare Vedic ani, which would
suggest that ni is derived from IE *eni, the initial vowel being elided.

Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 20. oktober 2006 19:28
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Nicca

Stephen,

Now that I have full access to my books again, I can follow up on my earlier
message. I think Ven. Dhammanando has provided sufficient material from the
commentaries and so there is no need for me to look for more. I'd just like
to add more to my earlier remarks on the Pali and Sanskrit derivations:

> I looked up 'nitya' in Apte's Skt. dictionary and found this
> derivation on p.898: [niyamena niyata.m vaa bhava.m ni-ty-p; cf. P.
> IV.2.104. vaart.]. ... Not sure if the 'ni' refers to the prefix or to
> a coalescence of 'na' + 'i'.

"ni-ty-p" should read ni-tya-p, my mistake. The taddhita suffix 'tyap' (the
'p' is indicatory and dropped) is added to the prefix 'ni' to give us
'nitya'. Paa.n IV.2.104 states: avyayaattyap (tyap after an indeclinable).
The first vaartika states: tyabnerdhruve (tyap after 'ni' in (the sense of)
dhruva -- fixed). This is all very clear and straightforward.

> naasabhaavena na icca.m na gantabba.m nicca.m, naasa.m vaa na
> gacchatiiti nicca.m. (Abh-.t ad Abh 41 -- CSCD version 3 disk)

How it is derived in Pali is problematic. In checking some of the native
Pali grammars, the derivation is treated differently from the above. Kacc-v
638 (Burmese) gives "nitana.m nicca.m"; Mmd on Kacc 638: "niccanti niti
nicce tiimassa ruupa.m"; Ruup 660: "niti nicce nicca.m"; Sd 1260:
"sata-nata-nitato tyo. sacca.m, nacca.m, nicca.m". I'm not able to find an
entry for 'nitana.m', 'nita', or 'niti' in a dictionary. Perhaps 'nitana.m'
is derived from ni+tan?

Best wishes,
Jim

2041
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:49 am 
Subject: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary  

I received my copy of the aforementioned 2000 edition of the ADP ( =
Abhidhanappadipika, 12th century lexicon by Mogg, etc.) direct from
Pune this week.

How positively you regard the book will have more to do with your
opinion of the .Tiikaa than your opinion of the editor. The one
decisive advantage this has over the Burmese edition (of the ADP) is,
obviously, the inclusion of the full text of the commentary; however,
the index is also somewhat better and more exhaustive than the Burmese
(probably because the latter was composed without a computer?).

It is worrying that there are so many (very obvious) typographical
errors in the english text of the introduction, etc. (virtually every
page contains at least one error in the English that would be quite
obvious to an editor) --but, so far, I have not found the same problem
with the Pali. As I say, however, it is worrying as to the reliability
of the edition as a whole, and I have only been using it for two days
now.

At a minimum, this is an excellent addition/augment to the Burmese
edition; however, in part because it is so unwiedly, you would be
unlikely to replace the Burmese with it --and the author does not
reproduce the citations tracing canonical quotes from the Burmese
(although the introduction vaguely suggests that they are included in
one of the numerous appendixes ... ).

The commentary (.tiikaa / va.n.nana) is disappointing in many ways
--and this is, of course, no fault of the editor.  Much of the comm.
is preoccupied with proliferating synonyms that are (1) of less and
less "synonymous" value, and (2) are too often Sanskrit terms given a
Palic spelling, that never appear in the Pali canon, nor are of any
utility to a modern reader.

However, the .tiikaa will doubtless be of historical interest for many
on this list, and the more analytical word glosses that come up are of
some interest --drawing heavily on the Sanskrit tradition, rather than
the Pali comm., as the introduction demonstrates and discusses quite
clearly.

I am rather relieved that someone (other than myself) has gone ahead
and carried out a basic comparative reading of the major published
editions of ADP itself (leaving aside the Comm.) --as I was very much
afraid that after finishing Kacc. I would be obliged to do similar
work on the text, were it not done already.

E.M.

2042
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:50 pm 
Subject: Re: 2000 edition of ADP + commentary  

Hi Eisel,

Thank-you for the description and for your opinion of the book. Does it
mention who the author of the .iiikaa might be? According to Ven.
Nyanatusita's Reference Table of Pali Literature (under 5.6.1), there are
several .tiikaas on Abh beginning with the pura.na.tiikaa by Vaacissara.
There is a .tiikaa available on the CSCD disk and online at tipitaka.org
which I make use of and occasionally quote from it on this list. However, I
still don't know who wrote it or which .tiikaa it is. Here is the
introductory verse from it:

  yassa ~naa.na.m sadaa ~naa.na.m, naa~n~neyyaa ~naa.naka.m vinaa.
  nissesagu.nayuttassa, tassa natvaa mahesino..
  satthantaraa samaadaaya, saara.m sabbadharaa tathaa.
  kariyyate'bhidhaanappa-diipakassatthava.n.nanaa..

Does it match the one in your .tiikaa?

Best wishes,
Jim

> I received my copy of the aforementioned 2000 edition of the ADP ( =
> Abhidhanappadipika, 12th century lexicon by Mogg, etc.) direct from
> Pune this week.
>
> How positively you regard the book will have more to do with your
> opinion of the .Tiikaa than your opinion of the editor. The one
> decisive advantage this has over the Burmese edition (of the ADP) is,
> obviously, the inclusion of the full text of the commentary; however,
> the index is also somewhat better and more exhaustive than the Burmese
> (probably because the latter was composed without a computer?).

2043
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:55 am 
Subject: ADP + .tiikaa  

Jim,

   The author of the .Tiikaa we're talking about is Catura'ngabala,
late 14th century.

   An edition of this was part of the Cha.t.thasa'ngaayanaa editions in
Burma, and so is presumably the one on your disk (not that I have the
CD-ROM...)

E.M.

2044
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:46 pm 
Subject: Re: ADP + .tiikaa  

Eisel,

Thanks! However, I'm not totally convinced that the author of the Abh
.tiikaa on the CSCD disk is Catura"ngabala. It would be more convincing if
the introductory verse for both editions are exactly the same. Is your text
in the Devanagari script as is the case with most Indian editions?  I notice
that one of the titles given for Pa~n~nasaami's .tiikaa in Nyanatusita's
Ref. Table is : Abhidhaanappadiipikaa-atthava.n.nanaa which closely matches
a sort of title given in the last line of the introductory verse I supplied
previously :

<< kariyyate'bhidhaanappa-diipakassatthava.n.nanaa..>>

Jim

>   The author of the .Tiikaa we're talking about is Catura'ngabala,
> late 14th century.
>
>   An edition of this was part of the Cha.t.thasa'ngaayanaa editions in
> Burma, and so is presumably the one on your disk (not that I have the
> CD-ROM...)
>
> E.M.

2045
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:10 pm 
Subject: Re: ADP + .tiikaa  

Hi Jim,

   Sure, I'll try to type out the introductory verse of the .Tiikaa
when I get a chance --but my impression is that (notwithstanding the
diversity of names given to the commentary in question) this is the
only (on the ADP) one that has had an edition in the 20th century
--let alone multiple editions.

   The only other comm. on ADP that is widely available is the
Sinhalese gloss/nissaya (with really "useful" sinhalese translations,
such as repeating the Pali word but with the suffix "-ya" added onto
the end to make it sound like Sinhalese...) --although a more proper
.Tiikaa (per se) from Sri Lanka is also said to exist, but apparently
has not been the subject of a specific study or edition to date --and
likely languishes in MS form.

E.M.

2046
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2006 7:45 am 
Subject: Opening of the ADP .Tiikaa  

For Jim, to confirm or deny the identity of his text.
--------------------------
pa.naamaadiva.nanaa

idhaaya.m ganthakaaro pa.thamamattano paresampi sammaa
hitatthanipphaadanattha.m pu~n~nasampada'maacinoti "tathaagato"ccaadinaa.

tattha karu.naakaro mahaakaru.naaya uppattit.t.thaanabhuuto yo
tathaagato bhagavaa karopayaata.m attano hatthagata.m sukhappada.m
sukhassa pati.t.thaanabhuuta.m ... etc.

E.M.

2047
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2006 1:48 pm 
Subject: Re: Opening of the ADP .Tiikaa  

Eisel,

Yes, your quote almost exactly matches the CSCD version:

<< pa.naamaadiva.n.nanaa
  [ka] idhaaya.m ganthakaaro pa.thamamattano paresampi sammaa
hitatthanipphaadanattha.m  pu~n~nasampada'maacinoti ``tathaagato''ccaadinaa.
tattha karu.naakaro  mahaakaru.naaya uppatti.t.thaanabhuuto yo tathaagato
bhagavaa karopayaata.m attano  hatthagata.m sukhappada.m sukhassa
pati.t.thaanabhuuta.m ... >> (as converted from the VRI encoding to
Velthuis)

This passage begins the .tiikaa commentary on the introductory
buddhappa.naama verse of Abhidhaanappadiipikaa. I have glanced through the
colophon (nigamanakathaa) at the end of the .tiikaa but can't see anything
indicating the author's name or date of composition.

Thanks for the quote.

Jim

> For Jim, to confirm or deny the identity of his text.
> --------------------------
> pa.naamaadiva.nanaa
>
> idhaaya.m ganthakaaro pa.thamamattano paresampi sammaa
> hitatthanipphaadanattha.m pu~n~nasampada'maacinoti "tathaagato"ccaadinaa.
>
> tattha karu.naakaro mahaakaru.naaya uppattit.t.thaanabhuuto yo
> tathaagato bhagavaa karopayaata.m attano hatthagata.m sukhappada.m
> sukhassa pati.t.thaanabhuuta.m ... etc.
>
> E.M.

2048
From: Dietrich Christian Lammerts <dcl33@cornell.edu> 
Date: Wed Nov 1, 2006 4:23 pm 
Subject: Re: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa

Dear Jim and Eisel,

Just a quick thought on this issue: The attribution of the commentary to
Catura'ngabala according to later Burmese tradition draws on the account in
the gamdhava.msa/pi.takat' samuin'3 group of texts. In case you don't have
it on hand:

Abhidhaanappadiipikaaya .tiikaa da.n.diipakara.nassa magadhabhuutaa .tika
caati duvidhaa .tiikaayo attano matiyaa siihasuuranaamara~n~no ekena
amaccena kataa (Gandhava.msa, Minayeff ed., JPTS 1886, p. 71).

The epigraphy appears to confirm that there were 3 kings with this title
ruling in Pa'nya in the early/mid 14th century (and one at Ava in the early
15th). If we read the gandhava.msa alongside Burmese saasanava.msa accounts,
eg the vernacular Saasanaala'nkaara caa tam'3, which mentions the .tiikaa as
evidence for the title, we're probably dealing here with Siihasuura II, r.
1344-50 (though keep in mind these va.msas are also late).

In the colophon to the .tiikaa, Siihasuura is mentioned in a string of
epithets as also "Catusetibhinda" (catu-seta-ibha-inda -- although I think
this particular Siihasuura II may have been the lord of five, not four,
white elephants, but that is another matter). I would suggest that perhaps
this is the source of the confusion involving "Catura'ngabala" with this
text. But who knows; we will have to turn to other ms evidence to
investigate this further.

In any case, "Catura'ngabala" is not mentioned in the commentary itself as
far as I am aware, and the attribution can be dated to no earlier than the
late 17th century bibliographic treatises. Interestingly the .tiikaa is also
absent from the detailed 15th century book list epigraph edited by Pe Maung
Tin and Luce, although there we find an "abhidhan nissaya". Popular
tradition also claims that Catura'ngabala compiled the Lokaniiti, but there
is no strong evidence for this.

Christian



--
Dietrich Christian Lammerts
Doctoral Student, Department of Asian Studies, Cornell University
Kahin Center for Advanced Research on Southeast Asia
640 Stewart Avenue
Ithaca, NY 14850 USA
DCL33@cornell.edu
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33

Fall 2006 Office Hours: Tues, Wed 11:10-12:30, 336 Rockefeller Hall

2049
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 3, 2006 10:41 pm 
Subject: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa  

> In any case, "Catura'ngabala" is not mentioned in the commentary itself as
> far as I am aware, and the attribution can be dated to no earlier than the
> late 17th century

A rather non-sequitor conclusion, given that every other published
source (in reviewing the same evidence) arrives at a date circa 1351,
viz., for the same reasons you state here:

> If we read the gandhava.msa alongside Burmese saasanava.msa accounts,
> eg the vernacular Saasanaala'nkaara caa tam'3, which mentions the .tiikaa as
> evidence for the title, we're probably dealing here with Siihasuura II, r.
> 1344-50 (though keep in mind these va.msas are also late).

Apparently your reason for rejecting the (generally held) "va.msa"
date, is that:

> Interestingly the .tiikaa is also
> absent from the detailed 15th century book list epigraph edited by Pe Maung
> Tin and Luce, although there we find an "abhidhan nissaya".

Well, that would be an _argumentum ex silentio_ wouldn't it?

E.M.

2050
From: Dietrich Christian Lammerts <dcl33@cornell.edu> 
Date: Sat Nov 4, 2006 3:19 pm 
Subject: Re: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa

Dear Eisel:

>> In any case, "Catura'ngabala" is not mentioned in the commentary itself as
>> far as I am aware, and the attribution can be dated to no earlier than the
>> late 17th century
>
> A rather non-sequitor conclusion, given that every other published
> source (in reviewing the same evidence) arrives at a date circa 1351,
> viz., for the same reasons you state here:


I am not sure what you are referring to when you claim to have consulted
every other published source, since there is an extensive amount of
published Burmese material relevant to this issue. If you are referring to
the published editions of Minayeff's Gandhava.msa, Yan's Pi.takat Samuin
(soon to be PTS Pi.takat Samuin), Pa~n~naasaami's Saasanava.msa, or their
derivatives (Bode, et al), then that these texts make similar attributions
should not come as a surprise. It is hardly non sequitur to conclude that a
group of related, relatively contemporary texts, which frequently reproduce
the same information, might faithfully transmit uncertain attributions.

I have been working on the manuscripts of these and different bibliographic
treatises for the past several years -- looking specifically at their
histories of dhammasat texts -- and occasionally they _are_ misleading or
incorrect. There is no question that their attributions should be used
cautiously until they can be further corroborated, especially when it comes
to texts allegedly compiled in Burma before the 17th c.


>
>> If we read the gandhava.msa alongside Burmese saasanava.msa accounts,
>> eg the vernacular Saasanaala'nkaara caa tam'3, which mentions the .tiikaa as
>> evidence for the title, we're probably dealing here with Siihasuura II, r.
>> 1344-50 (though keep in mind these va.msas are also late).
>
> Apparently your reason for rejecting the (generally held) "va.msa"
> date, is that:
>
>> Interestingly the .tiikaa is also
>> absent from the detailed 15th century book list epigraph edited by Pe Maung
>> Tin and Luce, although there we find an "abhidhan nissaya".
>
> Well, that would be an _argumentum ex silentio_ wouldn't it?
>

I was not trying to reject the attribution; I simply wanted to point out
that the Burmese account of the authorship of the .tiikaa is late and found
only in a specific group of related texts. You're right that its absence
from the 15th c. list proves nothing (I didn't claim that it did). I see no
reason why the attribution might not be established more firmly through the
usual ways: close comparative study of the text and manuscripts, different
pi.takat samuin or va.msa traditions, epigraphic records, etc., or perhaps
through Tai or Sinhala accounts. But simply following Bode in
accepting/reproducing the "generally held" attribution (i.e. that of only
the gandhava.msa or saasanava.msa) is not, at least for me, sufficient,
particularly since there has been so little research on divergent
bibliographic traditions in Burma.


Christian


--
Dietrich Christian Lammerts
Doctoral Student, Department of Asian Studies, Cornell University
Kahin Center for Advanced Research on Southeast Asia
640 Stewart Avenue
Ithaca, NY 14850 USA
DCL33@cornell.edu
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/dcl33

Fall 2006 Office Hours: Tues, Wed 11:10-12:30, 336 Rockefeller Hall

2051
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Nov 4, 2006 9:12 pm 
Subject: Re: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa  

Dear Christian,

Perhaps the colophon provides the best evidence of all. I spent a good part
of the day trying to understand the first two verses of the colophon but
have not gotten very far. I've just been taking a look through the next
three verses beginning with "yo siihasuuro" and it suddenly occurred to me
that the "...aham..." in the fifth verse refers to the king himself:

tenaahamaccantamanuggahiito,
ana~n~nasaadhaara.nasa"ngahena.
sa"nkhepatokaasimima.m visuddhi-
sa.mva.n.nana.m sotuhita.m subodha.m..

My interpretation is that "aha.m" is the correlative of "yo" and "tena"
qualifies the second line.  He wrote the commentary in brief with lots of
help from the Sangha.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< In the colophon to the .tiikaa, Siihasuura is mentioned in a string of
epithets as also "Catusetibhinda" (catu-seta-ibha-inda -- although I think
this particular Siihasuura II may have been the lord of five, not four,
white elephants, but that is another matter). I would suggest that perhaps
this is the source of the confusion involving "Catura'ngabala" with this
text. But who knows; we will have to turn to other ms evidence to
investigate this further. >>

2052
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 5, 2006 1:10 am 
Subject: Update to my website (with Ashokan headline)  

My website has (finally) been updated.

This is worth taking a quick glance at, even if it is only for the new
grapic of Ashokan text headlining the page:

http://pali.pratyeka.org/

2053
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 5, 2006 2:30 am 
Subject: Duroiselle's textbook (my edition) now online  

I forgot to mention this in my previous post.

As part of the site update, my revised, re-formatted, and corrected
edition of Duroiselle's textbook is now on-line for free downloading:

http://pratyeka.org/duroiselle/

E.M.

2054
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Sun Nov 5, 2006 3:38 am 
Subject: SV: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa  

Dear Jim,

The verse seems to  state that I (the writer), being perpetually helped by
him (tena) through his friendliness, which is uncommon to other people,
composed (akaasim) in abbreviated form a commentary on the Visuddhi.

Of course, I have no idea about what Visuddhi refers to.

Regards,
Ole Pind


Dear Christian,

Perhaps the colophon provides the best evidence of all. I spent a good part
of the day trying to understand the first two verses of the colophon but
have not gotten very far. I've just been taking a look through the next
three verses beginning with "yo siihasuuro" and it suddenly occurred to me
that the "...aham..." in the fifth verse refers to the king himself:

tenaahamaccantamanuggahiito,
ana~n~nasaadhaara.nasa"ngahena.
sa"nkhepatokaasimima.m visuddhi-
sa.mva.n.nana.m sotuhita.m subodha.m..

My interpretation is that "aha.m" is the correlative of "yo" and "tena"
qualifies the second line.  He wrote the commentary in brief with lots of
help from the Sangha.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< In the colophon to the .tiikaa, Siihasuura is mentioned in a string of
epithets as also "Catusetibhinda" (catu-seta-ibha-inda -- although I think
this particular Siihasuura II may have been the lord of five, not four,
white elephants, but that is another matter). I would suggest that perhaps
this is the source of the confusion involving "Catura'ngabala" with this
text. But who knows; we will have to turn to other ms evidence to
investigate this further. >>

2055
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 5, 2006 4:35 am 
Subject: Re: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa  

> I am not sure what you are referring to when you claim to have consulted
> "every other published source", since there is an extensive amount of
> published Burmese material relevant to this issue.

I believe you know exactly what I am referring to, and I believe my
former message was entirely clear on this point, given that you allude
to precisely the same sources yourself, viz.:

> Gandhava.msa, Yan's Pi.takat Samuin
> (soon to be PTS Pi.takat Samuin), Pa~n~naasaami's Saasanava.msa, or their
> derivatives (Bode, et al), then that these texts make similar attributions
> should not come as a surprise.

Indeed, it is "no surprise" to me (thus I alluded to them _en masse_),
and they are indeed all mutually "derivative" sources, as is the
introduction to the 2000 Pune edition.  Thus, you know full well what
I mean when I say "every other published source".

> It is hardly non sequitur ...

It was a non sequitor (per se) precisely because it did not build upon
nor relate to the evidence you presented in that message prior to
writing it; the conclusion was introduced _non sequitor_ --that
doesn't mean that I disapprove of it nor that I presume it to be
false.

> ... to conclude that a
> group of related, relatively contemporary texts, which frequently reproduce
> the same information, might faithfully transmit uncertain attributions.

Indeed, it happens often, as we both know; however, your conclusion
has even less support than theirs.

I think that a speculative claim based on the *style* of the
commentary is very dubious given how heavy the Sanskrit influence is;
remember, the traditional attribution is to a migrant from India (very
easy to believe, given that it reflects mainland Indian learning of
Sk. sources, etc.) who would not, therefore, fit easily into stylistic
categories of contemporaneous Burma. It is also supposed that the
.Tiikaa had some kind of influence/arrival in Sri Lanka --if the
latter could be dated or compared, this would be a useful
corroboration of either/any theory.

> ...and occasionally they _are_ misleading or
> incorrect. There is no question that their attributions should be used
> cautiously...

Caution is easy to advise, but difficult to practise --especially when
dispensing with traditional dates to assign speculative ones.

E.M.

2056
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 5, 2006 4:50 am 
Subject: Robes for tall monks, article  

I received the following notice of an article (with photographs) on
the difficulties (both doctrinal and practical) of getting a robe for
a tall, western monk. Somewhat amusing --E.M.
-----------
Greetings Eisel.

Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo's journal now has posts regarding his personalized
robes and the entries contain images of the final result. We spoke
previously about finding suitable requisites for ordination,
especially capable robes for tall monastics. Metta!

Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo's blog:
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/

2057
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 6, 2006 12:30 pm 
Subject: Re: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa  

Dear Ole,

Thanks for your help. Your take on the verse makes better sense to me. One
mistake I made was misreading "-sa"ngahena" as "-sa"nghena". sa"ngaha also
means "sa"nkhepa" (an abridgement, summary) according to Abh 116, 925. But
the sense of "anuggaha" (friendliness, kindness) seems to go well with
"ana~n~nasaadhaara.na-" (uncommon to others). These verses are much too
difficult for me to work on without the help of a subcommentary or a much
better understanding of Pali. I've been looking at the Buddhappa.naama verse
at the beginning of Abh which is just as difficult to make sense of but made
easier with the explanations of Abh-.t.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> The verse seems to  state that I (the writer), being perpetually helped by
> him (tena) through his friendliness, which is uncommon to other people,
> composed (akaasim) in abbreviated form a commentary on the Visuddhi.
>
> Of course, I have no idea about what Visuddhi refers to.
>
> Regards,
> Ole Pind

2058
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Nov 6, 2006 1:49 pm 
Subject: SV: attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa  

Dear Jim,

If I can help you with the remaining verses, please let me know. If so,
perhaps you could send them to me ?
Best wishes,
Ole Pind

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 6. november 2006 18:30
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] attribution of the ADP .Tiikaa

Dear Ole,

Thanks for your help. Your take on the verse makes better sense to me. One
mistake I made was misreading "-sa"ngahena" as "-sa"nghena". sa"ngaha also
means "sa"nkhepa" (an abridgement, summary) according to Abh 116, 925. But
the sense of "anuggaha" (friendliness, kindness) seems to go well with
"ana~n~nasaadhaara.na-" (uncommon to others). These verses are much too
difficult for me to work on without the help of a subcommentary or a much
better understanding of Pali. I've been looking at the Buddhappa.naama verse
at the beginning of Abh which is just as difficult to make sense of but made
easier with the explanations of Abh-.t.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> The verse seems to  state that I (the writer), being perpetually
> helped by him (tena) through his friendliness, which is uncommon to
> other people, composed (akaasim) in abbreviated form a commentary on the
Visuddhi.
>
> Of course, I have no idea about what Visuddhi refers to.
>
> Regards,
> Ole Pind

2059
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 6, 2006 8:26 pm 
Subject: Abh-.t (nigamanakathaa)  

Dear Ole,

You wrote:
<< If I can help you with the remaining verses, please let me know. If so,
perhaps you could send them to me ? >>

Yes, I think you could help with the remaining verses. I have copied and
pasted below the six concluding verses of the nigamanakathaa found at the
end of Abh-.t (Catura"ngabala). This is the CSCD/VRI  version and the only
one I have access to. We should probably start from the beginning. I think
it would be best for me to work on one verse at a time and to attempt a
translation, if possible, or failing that, to explain the problems I'm
having with the text. You (as well as other members) could then offer
solutions or translations. Is that okay with you? I believe the 6 verses can
be divided up into three parts: I) verses 1, 2; II) 3, 4, 5; III) 6. The
business about the doso (mistake) and gu.no (what does this mean?) seems to
be related to topics covered in the Subodhaala"nkaara (on rhetoric) which I
hardly know anything about. I also notice the word "subodha.m" at the end of
verse 5 and thought it might be related to this text as it's in the title.

I'll go ahead and resume the study of verse 1 and get back to you later.
Btw, I just received today in the mail my free PTS copy of K.R. Norman's A
Philological Approach to Buddhism.

Here are the verses:

nigamanakathaa

yadyatra doso.nupamaa.nasambhavo,
gu.niisu viidhimpi tathaa vigaahate.
yathaa jala.m bhojanampi jantuvaa,
catuppado vaapyacaro ka.na.nyapi..

asampavedidassanaaya bhaasite,
gu.no ca doso ca sadaa vivijjare.
tato budhaa me navadhaanataa bhava.m,
khamantu dosa.m gu.nata.m nayantu vaa..

yo siihasuuro sitaku~njarindo,
raajaadhiraajaa ahu tambadiipe.
dubbaaranaagaadijito narindo,
sukantabhiimaadigu.nopapanno..

tannaamadheyyo tadanubbaadajaato,
saddhaadiyutto catusetibhindo.
naagaadithaamo atiduppasayho,
u.laarapa~n~no dhitimaa yasassii..

tenaahamaccantamanuggahiito,
ana~n~nasaadhaara.nasa"ngahena.
sa"nkhepatokaasimima.m visuddhi-
sa.mva.n.nana.m sotuhita.m subodha.m..

raajaa paja.m rakkhatu sappaja.mva,
dhamma~nca lokaapi samaacarantu.
puurentu atthaa supakappitaa ca,
kaalena devopi pavassatuuti..

abhidhaanappadiipikaa.tiikaa ni.t.thitaa.

Best wishes,
Jim

2060
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Nov 7, 2006 6:08 am 
Subject: SV: Abh-.t (nigamanakathaa)  

Dear Jim,

<< The business about the doso (mistake) and gu.no (what does this mean?) >>

gu.no an antonym of doso : merit, excellence as opposed to deficiency that
always go together in whatever is propounded to show that one is not shaken.

The reading asampavedi is most certainly a mistake for asampavedhi.

<<I'll go ahead and resume the study of verse 1 and get back to you later>>

OK.

Best,
Ole Holten Pind

2061
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Nov 7, 2006 1:25 pm 
Subject: unidettified Palm leaf  

Dear members,

I received a message from Tzungkuen (Khemramsi) seeking help in identifying
a palm leaf manuscript. I have uploaded a jpeg image (about 800 KB) of a
leaf from this manuscript to the following url for any members interested in
taking a look:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/img-X251407-0003.jpg

It's looks very old and I find it hard to read. I don't recognize the script
but it does contain letters found in the Burmese script eg. b. There are
upside down Burmese dh's as well. Can anyone identify the script and
contents?

Best wishes,
Jim

<< Dear Jim

My friend owns some palm leaf manuscripts which were handed down from her
ancesotrs. Her family asked some people in Taiwan to identify those
manuscripts but they all failed. Maybe someone in the Palistudy group could
give a hand to indentify the script and the content.  Could you help me to
send the picture to people who may find it interesting?

with metta

Tzungkuen >>

2062
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Nov 7, 2006 2:55 pm 
Subject: manuscripts  

Dear members,

I would appreciate if members would report on Pali ms.s in their possession
or Pali ms. they have heard about. It is urgent to preserve any document
that represents the Buddhist heritage in South-East Asia and elsewhere.

Best wishes,
Ole Holten Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2063
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Tue Nov 7, 2006 2:37 pm 
Subject: SV: unidettified Palm leaf  

Dear Jim,

I think it would be a good idea to ask Tzungkuen to mail the ms. Iwould also
ask any individual to report on ms.s they have heard about or seen. There
are many valuable Pali ms.s that have never been catalogued. I have heard of
some of vital importance, but so far they have not been made available to
scholars. I think it is necessary to push for a change. We need to have
access to important ms.s before it is too late.

Best wishes,
Ole Holten Pind


-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Jim Anderson
Sendt: 7. november 2006 19:26
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] unidettified Palm leaf

Dear members,

I received a message from Tzungkuen (Khemramsi) seeking help in identifying
a palm leaf manuscript. I have uploaded a jpeg image (about 800 KB) of a
leaf from this manuscript to the following url for any members interested in
taking a look:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/img-X251407-0003.jpg

It's looks very old and I find it hard to read. I don't recognize the script
but it does contain letters found in the Burmese script eg. b. There are
upside down Burmese dh's as well. Can anyone identify the script and
contents?

Best wishes,
Jim

<< Dear Jim

My friend owns some palm leaf manuscripts which were handed down from her
ancesotrs. Her family asked some people in Taiwan to identify those
manuscripts but they all failed. Maybe someone in the Palistudy group could
give a hand to indentify the script and the content.  Could you help me to
send the picture to people who may find it interesting?

with metta

Tzungkuen >>

2064
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Tue Nov 7, 2006 3:49 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: unidettified Palm leaf  

Dear Ole,

I am part of a group trying to do this with the Library of
Congress in the US. Harald Hundius, Khongdeaune Nettavong, and
David Wharton in Laos have been also working on this problem
in Laos (I am trying to help them by have tracking down a few
collections in the US, but there are many more in Europe).
Filliozat has been publishing catalogues for a while for
different collections, as did Bill Pruitt. A summary of
catalogues for manuscripts is found in my 2003 dissertation,
there is another list in Skilling and Santi's three volume
(soon to be four) "Materials for the Study of the Tripitaka"
published through EFEO, FPL, and Lumbini. In my book, which
will be out sometime in 2007 (still in the publisher's hands)
I discuss manuscript collections and the problems in
researching them and locating them. You are right, there are
many scattered manuscripts and more become scattered everyday
because of unscrupulous traders. I am asked frequently to
identify mss. for private dealers and when I ask where they
acquired the manuscript, they are not forthcoming with the
information (because they acquired it illegally or
semi-legally through an "antique shop"). Virginia Shih, Henry
Ginsberg are good resource for this, as is Greg Greene. There
are not only dealers in Bangkok, Vientiane, Phnom Penh,
Mandalay, and Chiang Mai, but also in London, Berlin, Rome,
and Los Angeles. I imagine that most who purchase these
manuscripts can't read them and so will not report when they
find a rare text. Also, some dealers cut up (literally with a
saw through the wood cover) or sell the leaves independently
in tourist frames (it would be better if they just produced
fake mss., but its often easier to steal real mss.). So
scattering happens then too. Funny thing is, that I have
evidence and found expliciti stories of this same practice
happening with monks in the pre-modern period. It is not just
the fault of dealers and tourists. However, perhaps this is
part of the textual record and attachment to the
"completeness" of collections or even if "singular" texts is
the scholar's problem. Still, as a historian and philologist,
I would like to see texts stay together and preserved!

Its a sad situation. Please earn your students not to
participate in this trade and fuel the economy of mss. theft.

Best,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 20:37:18 +0100
>From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk>
>Subject: SV: [palistudy] unidettified Palm leaf
>To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
>
>Dear Jim,
>
>I think it would be a good idea to ask Tzungkuen to mail the
ms. Iwould also
>ask any individual to report on ms.s they have heard about or
seen. There
>are many valuable Pali ms.s that have never been catalogued.
I have heard of
>some of vital importance, but so far they have not been made
available to
>scholars. I think it is necessary to push for a change. We
need to have
>access to important ms.s before it is too late.
>
>Best wishes,
>Ole Holten Pind
>

2065
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 3:57 am 
Subject: Re: manuscripts  

That's a fairly general request, Dr. Pind.

I try to comment on any specific MS caches that cross my attention
that may be of special interest (I think I'm the only one contributing
this kind of information to the list).

The recent _Literary Heritage of Laos, etc._ lists several un-studied
sources of MSs, including what purports to be the only Cambodian
temple to have escaped destruction by Pol Pot (it is described only
briefly).  Of course, the chances are that the latter collection will
just contain dull Kammavaca texts, but it (apparently) the one and
only set of indigenous Pali MS in Cambodia --I discussed the remainder
with Mme Filliozat, who was withering of the Ms in Phnom Penh (and, it
seems, with good reason).

Given the locus of my current studies, I more frequently discuss the
"diaspora" of formerly Lao royal MS to be found in various places in
Thailand (viz., after looting): Yasothon, Mahasarakham, etc., and, of
course, in the national collection in Bangkok.

And, of course, if you have the patience, you could always move in
with Peter Skilling to look at his Burmese collection; Mme Filliozat
gave me some very candid advice as to just how exasperating an
exercise this can be --however, that collection is soon to disappear
to Burma, so you might want to act on the opportunity while it lasts.

I do not own any MS myself, and I do not plan to ever own any --unless
I write them myself.

E.M.

2066
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 4:51 am 
Subject: Re: manuscripts  

Why do you think Peter Skilling's collection is moving to
Burma?  It is a pleasant, highly organized, and easy place to
research and learn. I have spent many afternoons reading his
manuscripts there. He is also scanning the entire collection
for the web. He is one of the most generous and qualified
scholars anyone could meet. I have worked with and under the
guidance of Peter for many years. He is buying new land for a
new library in Thailand. What gives you the impression that it
is moving to Burma? Am I reading you correctly?
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 15:57:03 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] manuscripts
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>That's a fairly general request, Dr. Pind.
>
>I try to comment on any specific MS caches that cross my
attention
>that may be of special interest (I think I'm the only one
contributing
>this kind of information to the list).
>

2067
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:47 am 
Subject: Re: unidettified Palm leaf  

You guys are hilarious,

(1) I have no idea what makes her think it's in Burmese script; it
resembles Oriya, and may well be Oriya or one of its close relatives,
but it is really difficult to tell given the low resolution of the
image. Yes, there are a few glyphs that _prima facie_ resemble
Burmese, Lao-Tham, or even Khmer --but there are many more that
resemble Oriya-- and it really is a stab in the dark given this
sample, and the difficulty of even determining which side is "up".

(2) The photograph itself looks like it was made for an auction house,
rather than for scholars to be able to read/inspect the text.

(3) If her relatives in Taiwan have (truthfully) handed it down from
former generations, it is quite likely they were among those to loot
and pillage with the Japanese in WWII --a fair number ended up in
Taiwan (as in Thailand...) partly because of the fear of war crimes
trials, and partly because of the shame of returning home in defeat.
There was (and still is) a lot of pro-Japanese sentiment in Taiwan
--possibly the only part of the short-lived empire that felt this way.

E.M.

2068
From: Khemaramsi <tzungkuen@yahoo.com.tw> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 8:03 am 
Subject: Re: SV: unidettified Palm leaf

Dear friends

   The manuscript picture I send to Jim is my friend's heirloom, coming from her
grandfather's grandfather. Some Japanese monks want to buy it, but my friend's
family hesitates about that. It will be much appreciated if any expert could
help us to identify at least the script. If it's a Pali text, I shall ask her
family to scan the whole text for scholarly research.

   with metta

   Tzungkuen

justinm@ucr.edu G
           Dear Ole,

I am part of a group trying to do this with the Library of
Congress in the US. Harald Hundius, Khongdeaune Nettavong, and
David Wharton in Laos have been also working on this problem
in Laos (I am trying to help them by have tracking down a few
collections in the US, but there are many more in Europe).
Filliozat has been publishing catalogues for a while for





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2069
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 8:18 am 
Subject: Re: SV: unidettified Palm leaf  

Khemaramsi,

If you would like us to identify it, please provide a close up image
of the text itself.  We don't need to see the cover and the binding,
but just one close-up image of the letters on the page.

I would be deligted to learn that I am wrong, but I really can't make
out any examples of S.E.A. style "subscript" letters (in this blurry,
distant image) which would mean that it isn't in Pali.

E.M.

2070
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:57 am 
Subject: Re: manuscripts  

Re: Skilling's MS,

I'm a "secondary source" on this, and reporting what Filliozat explained to me.

She is aware of the legal details of his "holding" the MS, and
indicated to me that the pressing (legal) need for him to return them
to Burma had only be delayed because of the recent relocation of the
capital; had that not happened (and it was a surprise to many when it
did occur), the MS might already have been returned.

She was quite insistent that Skilling gives everyone the wrong
impression by behaving as if he owned the MS: he doesn't, and both
under his own mandate and various legal requirements, he is bound to
return them as soon as the Burmese Junta is ready to receive them.

She may be wrong, but I would surmise that the only possible error on
her part would be in estimating Skilling's temerity.

I am not going to repeat other information that has been shared with
me by various scholars, I feel, in confidence, but there seems to be
good reason for cynicism about the project.

Justin: you tend to assume that your positive experiences are
universal, or universally open to anyone and everyone.  Something
similar arose when you insisted that seeing MS at Bangkok's National
Library is "no problem"; for several scholars I have spoken to (and
myself as well) dealing with the Bk Nat'l Library does indeed entail
many serious problems --some of them heart-breaking.

I believe you when you say that you have had various positive
experiences with these institutions (Bkk, Skilling, etc.) --but you
should listen to the miseries of other scholars with an open mind,
and, perhaps, appreciate the extent to which your positive experiences
may be the exception to the rule --or may be because people have made
exceptions to the rules for your benefit.

Even where I had positive experiences accessing MS in Sri Lanka, I was
critically aware that almost any other scholar arriving with anything
less than a Sinhalese-fluent monk as his emissary (and, NB, *his*
emissary, as the situation would be demonstrably worse for a woman,
etc.) would not have been able to have an experience in any way
comparable.  I try to be aware of the limits, even when they do not
impede my own scholarship directly.

E.M.

2071
From: Mark Allon <mark.allon@arts.usyd.edu.au> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 3:24 pm 
Subject: Re: SV: unidettified Palm leaf

I am not an expert on SE Asian scripts and cannot read this one, but it
appears to me that you may have better chance of reading it if you flip
the image horizontally. It looks as though it may be related to Lao scripts.

Regards
Mark



Eisel Mazard wrote:

>Khemaramsi,
>
>If you would like us to identify it, please provide a close up image
>of the text itself.  We don't need to see the cover and the binding,
>but just one close-up image of the letters on the page.
>
>I would be deligted to learn that I am wrong, but I really can't make
>out any examples of S.E.A. style "subscript" letters (in this blurry,
>distant image) which would mean that it isn't in Pali.
>
>E.M.
>

2072
From: <justinm@ucr.edu> 
Date: Wed Nov 8, 2006 7:13 pm 
Subject: Re: manuscripts  

I apologize Eisel for saying nice things about other scholars
and their work.

However, Please do not "drop" little nuggets of rumors when
they have no basis in fact. What you say about Peter Skilling
is incorrect on every count. I have been a friend and student
of his for many years. I have worked in the manuscript
library. I have written on these manuscripts. Peter Skilling,
who I will have dinner with on Friday (I will be in BKK for a
few days
for a funeral and a talk), has no legal relationship with the
Burmese junta. If it wasn't for him, thousands of manuscript
would have broken up, stolen, sold, and scattered. He has
preserved a massive collection for future scholars. Many
Burmese scholars work with him there and visit often. They
appreciate his efforts.

Moving capitals? Skilling's temerity? You
really have no idea what you are talking about here. I
apologize for being harsh here, but you have no business
slandering someone whose work, work history, and life you do
not know. You have no business reporting rumors or opinions of
another scholar that cannot be cross-checked. Speak for
yourself, not others. Let them speak for themselves. Please
refrain from this and only report what is published or what
can be checked.

Peter has published over 120 articles, several books, has been
a visiting professor in Paris, Harvard, Berkeley, Tokyo, and
Bangkok. He is a member (recent) of the EFEO, Lumbini Research
Institute, Pali text Society, and has started a non-profit
oprganization to help fund scholars to do manuscript research.
He has lived in Thailand for 30+ years. He lived in India for
several years. He was a monk for three years. He is funding
the scanning and free access to thousands of manuscripts. I
think he is doing his part for the field. He deserves better
than being the subject of groundless rumors on a listserve. If
you are going to criticize him, than criticize his arguments
in articles or his writing or his methodology. That is
scholarly debate. Trading in misinformation is not what this
forum should be for. Peter does not need me to defend him though,
so I will stop here.

Furthermore, the reason many scholars have problems in working
with manuscript archives in Thailand, this includes SRI, CPAC,
BNL, etc., is because they do not get the proper approval
letters or practice patience. Thai archivists and those at the
National Research Council do not like it when foreign (or
domestic) scholars and students simply walk in and ask to see
manuscripts without filling out the proper forms and
describing their research agenda, getting letters of
recommendation, etc. This takes time, but is a perfectly
transparent process. Treating people with common courtesy and
respect also helps. Bureaucratically it can be difficult, but
I have found it no more difficult than using the archives in
Aix, Paris, London, Washington DC, Dublin, Cornell, Berkeley,
Ann Arbor, and Vientiane. There are people who steal
manuscripts, the archives should be skeptical of visiting
scholars and students. They should have good security.

Many Thai archivists have lamented
to me that foreign scholars often get frustrated that they
can't "get" their copies of manuscripts in a day or two. Some
archivists have told me that foreign scholars have yelled at
them and demanded they be given preferential treatment (not
get in line with everyone else). Their advice -- be nice. Its
not so hard.

I am going to discontinue participating on this listserve. I
have work to do and do not have time to respond to baseless
misinformation. If any member would like to contact me off
list, please feel free. I have learned a great deal from the
debates, questions, and exchanges. I have learned a great deal
from you Eisel. Good luck with your studies and work. I look
forward to reading your material as it develops. I appreciate
all the
helpful criticism and advice I have received on this site.

If anyone would like to be a member of the Thai, Lao, Cambodia
Studies Group listserv I manage or be listed on the
tlc.ucr.edu memberlist, please tell me. Its still a work in
progress, but at least its free and open. I send out reports
on new publications, conferences, research resources, etc.

Sincerely,
justin

---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 19:57:59 +0700
>From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [palistudy] manuscripts
>To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
>
>Re: Skilling's MS,
>

2073
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 9, 2006 1:17 am 
Subject: Re: manuscripts  

What I actually said was (as my disclaimer stated at the top of my
former message) a "second hand" report based on what other scholars
have told me.

Nothing in my prior message is "baseless" --and, indeed, many of
things I have been accused of by McDaniel in his searing reply simply
are not stated in that message.

Notwithstanding these fulminations, I take Mme Filliozat's opinion
VERY seriously.  Yes, Skilling has a hundred publications; but
Filliozat has a thousand.

She is also a very well informed professional, employed by the
government of France, and possibly more keenly aware of national and
international laws and regulations than some members of this list; one
reason why I know a little bit more than average on this issue is that
I formerly worked in the museum sector --but I know enough to
appreciate Filliozat's comments on this issue.

I have not said anything to diminish the value of Skilling's work in
my prior message (nor any prior message that I can think of); however,
I am sure that the laws of Thailand, Mynamar, and various
international covenants would reflect Filliozat's concern that these
MS are *not* Skilling's private possessions, and, in fact, have a very
tenuous status in Bangkok, where they are technically cared for by the
PTS (under some unspeakably technical arrangement).

"Slander"?

E.M.

2074
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 9, 2006 1:27 am 
Subject: Mystery manuscript = Oriya  

Okay, I've received one reply from another schoalr, who agrees with me
that it's in Oriya script, and isn't Pali.

So --that would seem to be a working answer.

Try to find a scholar who can read Oriya, or attempt decoding it
letter-by-letter with an Oriya syllabary.

E.M.

2075
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 9, 2006 11:38 pm 
Subject: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Following below is a new English translation for the whole of the
first chapter of Kaccayana --including the introductory verses and
copious notes on the controvertial 10th and 11th verses.

This puts us "back on track" for the list-serv's discussion of Kacc
1:1 --that left off in 2004!

It will be evident that I have come to agree with 99.9% of Ole Pind's
thesis on verses 10 and 11 --or, in other words, that I have come to
reject the theories of Vidyabhusana, Senart, and Mason on the same
verse (briefly reviewed in the notes below).

And and all comments on the translation are welcome.  The only patch
that I really have trouble with is the Vutti to 1:1:10 --the vutti is
certainly inconsistent with the verse, and, frankly, seems
inconsistent with itself.

Please note that I *DO NOT* consider this work to be in the public
domain, but jealously reserve the rights to it, as it seems that I
will be including a full translation with my "Khmer edition" of
Kaccayana.

E.M.
---------------
Kaccāyanavyākaraṇa: English Translation

[Proem]

I salute [that most] fortunate, noble, and perfectly awakened [of men].
To the Buddha, best of all beings in the three worlds, to his Truth
[taught] without imperfection, and to the glorious multitude [of his
followers], the highest acclaim has been offered, and now, so that the
most excellent meaning of his words may be properly understood, I
shall recite a discourse on the grammar of correct euphony [viz., the
subject of the first chapter following].
For their own betterment, [many would] follow the ethic of the
all-conquering [Buddha], but the proper understanding of that ethic is
known [only] by means of the meanings of words, and the latter by
means of syllables, [whereof we can] not be ignorant.  Thus, those
seeking their own betterment must learn the manifold syllables and
words [of the Pali language].

The Book of Euphony

1‧1‧1
The meaning is made known by syllables.
All utterances [can] become meaningless in the way the syllables are
construed [or misconstrued].
Proficiency in letters is thus exceedingly useful for the study of the
[Buddha's] discourses, for an error in the the letters [entails] a
misguided meaning.

1‧1‧2
The letters are forty-one.
Thus the letters in the mode of the discourses [amount to] forty-one,
starting with "a".  They are:

a  ā  i  ī  u  ū  e  o
k kh g gh ɲ
c ch j jh ñ
ṭ ṭh ḍ ḍh ṇ
t th d dh n
p ph b bh m
y  r  l  v  s  h  ḷ  ŋ

These are termed "letters".
For what reason is this taught?  [Quoting 1‧1‧1:] The meaning is made
known by syllables.

1‧1‧3
The vowels are eight, delimited by "o".
Thus, among the letters, the [first] eight, [starting] from "a" and
delimited by "o", are termed "vowels".  They are:

a  ā  i  ī  u  ū  e  o

These are termed "vowels".
For what reason is this taught? [Quote: 1‧2‧1]

1‧1‧4
The short three are quick-in-measure.
Of the eight vowels the three that are quick-in-measure are termed
"short" vowels.  They are:

a  i  u

These are termed "short".
For what reason is this taught?  [Quote: 1‧3‧4]

1‧1‧5
The rest are long.
Thus, of the eight vowels, there are five called long, apart from the
short ones.  They are:

ā  ī  ū  e  o

These are termed "long".
For what reason is this taught? [Quote: 1‧2‧4]

1‧1‧6
The remainder are consonants.
Having established [the first] eight [as vowels], the remaining
letters from "ka", ending with "aŋ", are termed "consonants".  Namely:

ka kha ga gha ɲa
ca cha ja jha ña
ṭa ṭha ḍa ḍha ṇa
ta tha da dha na
pa pha ba bha ma
ya ra la va sa ha ḷa aŋ

These are termed "consonants".
For what reason is this taught? [Quote: 1‧3‧1]

1‧1‧7
Five by five the formula [is recited].
The consonants have been grouped [in rows of] letters, five by five,
termed "divisions" from "ka", ending with "ma".  They are:

k kh g gh ɲ
c ch j jh  ñ
ṭ ṭh ḍ ḍh ṇ
t th d dh n
p ph b bh m

These are termed "divisions".
For what reason is this taught? [Quote: 1‧4‧2]

1‧1‧8
The "aŋ" is snuffed-out.
The "aŋ" is termed a "snuffed-out" [nasal sound].
For what reason is this taught? [Quote: 1‧4‧1]

1‧1‧9
In this undertaking [viz., the study of grammar] the designations of
outsiders [may be used].
Thus the designations "voiced" and "unvoiced" from renowned works
shall be put to use here.  These are termed "voiced":

ga gha ɲa ja jha ña ḍa ḍha ṇa
da dha na ba bha ma ya ra la va ha ḷa

These are termed "voiced".  The unvoiced:

ka kha ca cha ṭa ṭha ta tha pa pha sa

These are termed "unvoiced".
For what reason is this taught? [Quote: 1‧3‧7]

1‧1‧10
[A word] having been before, the vowel may be separated and set below.
[Note: OPS §21 glosses this verse as instructing the reader in "how to
isolate words within continuously written text, [presupposing] the
graphic practice of writing the final consonant in a conjunct below
the line." The translation above only differs from Dr. Pind in the
rendering of the word "vowel"; this orthographic interpretation is
inconsistent with the commentarial layer and example following
immediately below. For further discussion of the verse, see the notes
to the Pali text, above {*in this e-mail, the longer note is provided
at the end, below*}.]
Thus the euphony is undertaken with the next available consonant at
the bottom of the other word, having made the other vowel on top
separate. [???]
[Example:] "Tatrāyamādi"

1‧1‧11
[With the separated vowel then] joined to the leading [letter] of the
other [word].
[Note: As with verse 10 above, the commentarial layer is at odds with
the meaning of the verse:]
The consonant at the bottom of the other word is joined to the leading
letter opposite, [for example:] "Tatrābhiratimiccheyya".
Why is this joined? [Example:] "Akkocchi maŋ avadhi maŋ ajini maŋ
ahāsi me." Even in this example, joining is not necessary.

[LONGER NOTE TO VERSE 10:]
* KSE interprets adhoṭhitaŋ as indicating the letter "in the final
position" (literally, "in the bottom position") of a given word, but
OPS proposes that it indicates "the graphic practice of writing the
final consonant in a conjunct below the line" (§23, thus "adhoṭhitaŋ"
would mean "set below" in the sense of being written as a subscript).
In private correspondence, Dr. Pind reiterated that this can be
supported by the comparative reading of parallel rules in Vararuci's
Prakrit grammar, and that the orthographic significance of verses 10 &
11 has been misunderstood by the later layers of text (and commentary)
because this method of writing conjuncts was not used in South-East
Asia in the era of the later authors.  KSE obviates the question by
interpreting verse 10 as a guide to pronunciation, rather than
spelling or orthography.  KVT does not follow Senart's lead, instead
interpreting the verse as (primarily) describing the inconsistent
practice of keeping the anuswara distinct from the initial vowel of
the following word.  In other words, KVT would regard the purpose of
verse 10 as a mere caveat to verse 11, reminding us that we do not
always subjoin final consonants to the initial vowel of the next word
following (and this seems to be consistent with the sole example
provided: tatrāyamādi).  However, Dr. Pind is doubtless correct that
the original purpose of these verses pertained to the orthographic
practice mentioned (whereby compounds are marked as distinct by
setting a syllable below) and he has indicated to me in correspondence
that this can be verified by the use of naye in the verse following,
viz., the terminology used in these verses can be consistently
interpreted as indicating orthography, but not in terms of phonetics
(as per the opinion of KSE) nor in terms of mere nigghahīta sandhi (as
per the opinion of KVT).  GM p. iv-v provides a wildly creative
interpretation of this verse's adhoṭhitaŋ, reporting it as it was then
applied in teaching sandhi in monastic schools of 19th century Burma,
as a written exercise in subsitition involving "writing below".

2076
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:15 am 
Subject: Peter Skilling's project; the problem with freedom of speech
 

If we're going to talk about Skilling in earnest, then, here is a
summary of what little I know, and if Skilling himself or anyone else
would be so kind as to contradict my one-sided understanding, I am
indeed willing and eager to learn that I may be wrong.

I would like to re-iterate that I have not said/written anything _ad
hominem_ about Skilling in my prior messages, nor have I written any
criticism of his published work. Like just about everyone else in the
field, I've enjoyed his contributions to the JPTS and other
publications, and appreciate his contribution to the corpus of western
opinion on the subject.

With that caveat stated, I proceed.

Over the past five years I have spoken with many scholars about Peter
Skilling's "Fragile Palm Leaves" Project, and virtually every one of
them has expressed some form of moral reservation about it --along
with raising speculations as to its legality.

At its most basic, the Project *does* buy manuscripts from "dealers"
and "smugglers", and has built up its inventory in what could be
called an ethical and legislative grey area.

If you buy a Burmese manuscript from a dealer in Thailand (and do not
remove it from Thailand) then you are not directly liable for
smuggling; however, you are certainly remunerating smugglers, and are
legally obliged to turn over the (known-to-be) smuggled goods to the
authorities at some point prior to crossing the border.

The organisation claims to be "holding" the manuscripts prior to their
hypothetical return to Burma, and claims that they have "rescued" them
from ending up in other private collections; both of these claims may
well be true, however, the moral argument is quite tenuous from my
perspective.  One could as easily argue that it is a moral act to buy
opium in Burma, as every dose of opium purchased will be prevented
from getting into the hands of some addict; however, in either
instance, the reality is that the money is contributing to a cycle of
exploitation.

Fundamentally, the project's money *is* directly encouraging the
illegal trade in Pali MS flowing out of Burma and into Thailand.

They have purchased "more than 5,000" manuscripts with this method
since 1994, and (therefore) have not had an insiginificant (direct)
effect on the black market for these goods.

The indirect effects are also significant: there is now a large
collection of MS in Taiwan that was acquired (reportedly) entirely by
Taiwanese private collectors buying what Skilling passed over or
rejected in his own shopping for "his" collection.  With that
collection alone, we have a very palpable example of the way in which
a project like F.P.L. can (and does) indirectly encourage other
private collectors to put money into the black market for these
antiquities.

It seems to me that there is a complex balancing act so far as the
legal and financial backing of the project is concerned, with various
promises having been made to (and by) the PTS, the Thai authorities,
and (directly or indirectly) the Myanmar Junta in Pyinmana --who still
have some hypothetical legal right to their cultural patrimony under
international and national law, as the Fragile Palm Leaves project
explicitly recognises.

This is indeed a subject that has stirred up rumour and innuendo among
many scholars, and it may well be that I am the victim of a common
misperception of the facts --but, if so, I assure you that I am not
the only one.  It may be of some real utility to answer these
perceptions --be they valid or invalid-- in some format more durable
than e-mail.

However, Justin has not responded to the issues raised, instead, what
he has written to me is this:
> You have no business reporting rumors or opinions of
> another scholar that cannot be cross-checked. Speak for
> yourself, not others. Let them speak for themselves. Please
> refrain from this and only report what is published or what
> can be checked.

That might be true of a submission to an edited journal, Dr. McDaniel,
however, it is no constraint upon my freedom of speech in writing mere
e-mails to friends and colleagues.

I have chosen a hard path in rejecting academia, but one of the few
benefits is that my freedom of speech is absolute: I may indulge in
the most reckless comments imaginable, without having to answer to any
thesis advisor or department head.  I do not live in the glass house
of an academic in need of other academics' support, and, accordingly,
I do not refrain from making moral arguments on moral issues.

Justin already knows this quite well about me, as he recently enjoyed
my 12-page article on the "immoral" activities of certain charitable,
international organisations in Northern Laos (
www.akha.org/content/sexualabuse/onerebuttaltothenoradreport.pdf ).

I feel that I have nothing to apologise for in trying to engage in
some degree of open discussion about the Fragile Palm Leaves project
--and even less would I apologise for all the accusations I have slung
against "Action Contra La Faim", the UN World Food Programme, or
numerous others for that matter.  Just this is the danger of freedom
of speech, and we all know that there is damn little of it (inside or
outside of academia) in Thailand today.

E.M.

2077
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:56 am 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hello once again, Dr. Pind,

> Kacc I.1.10-11 are admittedly obscure. Both suttas presuppose Kaatantra
I.1.21-22, although Kacc inverts the order of the suutras.

I had rather thought that 11 might make sense before 10; however,
their current order doesn't really obfuscate matters much.

Also, it may well be that a critical round of redactors read the verse
in the same sense that I have translated it, viz., that the rule is
describing writing vowels (specifically) "below", rather than
consonants or syllables of any kind.  This orthographic praxis of
writing initial vowels as subscripts did exist, at least marginally,
in Burmese antiquity, as I've seen it in Burmese epigraphy; I am not
aware of it in any other S.E.A. script (doubtless it has mainland,
Indic precedents), and it would seem impossible at any/every stage of
the development of Sinhalese script in particular.

Thank you very much for your remarks,

I will take another long look at my translation of the vutti to 10 and
11, and make further revisions,

E.M.

[2078 deleted]

2079
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:04 pm 
Subject: Re: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Eisel,

There are some technical problems with two of your recent messages:

1) Your previous message contains Unicode characters which do not display
properly despite my having set everything to read Unicode in my mail
program. I would suggest that you convert such characters to Velthuis in
future messages if you want them to be read properly by all members of the
list. I agree that Unicode is the way of the future but at present it is in
a transitional phase with many technical problems still needing to be worked
out before it becomes truly universal and compatible on most computer
systems.

2) Regarding your latest message, the problem is that you're responding to a
message sent to you by Ole but not to the group. Obviously, part of an
off-list discussion has been inadvertently sent here.

Robert Kirkpatrick's message seems to have been accidentally sent as there
isn't anything new added to it. It is just a repeat and has now been deleted
from the archive.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hello once again, Dr. Pind,
>
> > Kacc I.1.10-11 are admittedly obscure. Both suttas presuppose Kaatantra
I.1.21-22, although Kacc inverts the order of the suutras.
>
> I had rather thought that 11 might make sense before 10; however,
> their current order doesn't really obfuscate matters much.
>
> Also, it may well be that a critical round of redactors read the verse
> in the same sense that I have translated it, viz., that the rule is
> describing writing vowels (specifically) "below", rather than
> consonants or syllables of any kind.  This orthographic praxis of
> writing initial vowels as subscripts did exist, at least marginally,
> in Burmese antiquity, as I've seen it in Burmese epigraphy; I am not
> aware of it in any other S.E.A. script (doubtless it has mainland,
> Indic precedents), and it would seem impossible at any/every stage of
> the development of Sinhalese script in particular.
>
> Thank you very much for your remarks,
>
> I will take another long look at my translation of the vutti to 10 and
> 11, and make further revisions,
>
> E.M.

2080
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:46 am 
Subject: Kacc 10 & 11 Redux  

I revised my translation of 10 & 11 last night, in response to Ole's comments.
---------
1‧1‧10
[A word] having been before, [the adjoining leading letter of the
other word] with [its] vowel may be separated and set below.
Thus the euphony is undertaken with the previous consonant "set
below", having made the other vowelless and having made the [next
syllable's] vowel separate on top.
[Example:] "Tatrāyamādi."

1‧1‧11
The adjoined leading [letter] of the other [word]| [cf., 1‧1‧10]
[Note: the subject of rule ten is in fact provided by rule 11; in
private correspondence, Dr. Pind observed that the order of the rules
was somehow reversed in their being adapted from the Vararuci's
Prakrit grammar, the Kātantra, 1:1:21-22.  Again, the commentarial
layer is at odds with the meaning of the verse:]
The other word's consonant that stands below [viz., was set below] is
joined to the leading letter opposite.
[Example:] "Tatrābhiratimiccheyya".
Why is this joined? [Example:] "Akkocchi maŋ avadhi maŋ ajini maŋ
ahāsi me." In this example, joining is not necessary.

2081
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:46 pm 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Eisel,

Re: your translation of the second verse of the proem:

> For their own betterment, [many would] follow the ethic of the
> all-conquering [Buddha], but the proper understanding of that ethic is
> known [only] by means of the meanings of words, and the latter by
> means of syllables, [whereof we can] not be ignorant.  Thus, those
> seeking their own betterment must learn the manifold syllables and
> words [of the Pali language].

My understanding of the Pali verse differs from yours in several ways.
Instead of pointing out exactly what these differences are by going through
your translation, I will just provide the Pali text, my own tentative
translation for comparison along with a few comments.

(kha)
  seyya.m jineritanayena budhaa labhanti,
  ta~ncaapi tassa vacanatthasubodhanena;
  attha~nca akkharapadesu amohabhaavaa,
  seyyatthiko padamato vividha.m su.neyya.

The wise ones obtain excellence by means of the Method explained
       by the Conqueror,
And that too, by understanding well the meaning of His Words,
And the meaning, by non-confusion about the letters and words,
Therefore, one desirous of excellence should listen to the manifold words.

Comments:
1) "excellence" (seyya) refers to the nine supramundane dhammas
      (related to pa.tivedha or penetration).
2) "the Method" (naya) refers to the noble eightfold path or the training
      triad (related to pa.tipatti -- practice or praxis).
3) the words of the Buddha, understanding well the meaning of them, and
     non-confusion about the letters and words are all included in the
     pariyatti-saasana, I think.

Best wishes,
Jim

2082
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:51 am 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi Jim,

Yes, I had seen your translation before I undertook my own.

I do not think it would in any wise be an improvement to use
"Excellence" (noun) for "Seyya"; my prefernce for translating with
various phrases resembing "one's own betterment" in this context has
its grounds (although you may disagree with them). I think that some
sense of the reflexive (or: passive) needs to be preserved in the
translation.

No, I am not about to replace this with "Obtain Excellence" (an
extremely wooden rendering) on basis of the narrow reading of "seyya.m
... labhanti".

I regard the commentarial traditions with an eyebrow raised; for
example, I do not see any reason to suppose that "naya" in this
passage is intended by its author to infer eightfold path, etc.

E.M.

2083
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:13 pm 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi Eisel,

> Yes, I had seen your translation before I undertook my own.

The one I submitted to you has been slightly revised. It's a translation in
progress with most of the commentarial material on this verse still in need
of a thorough going over.

> I do not think it would in any wise be an improvement to use
> "Excellence" (noun) for "Seyya"; my prefernce for translating with
> various phrases resembing "one's own betterment" in this context has
> its grounds (although you may disagree with them). I think that some
> sense of the reflexive (or: passive) needs to be preserved in the
> translation.
>
> No, I am not about to replace this with "Obtain Excellence" (an
> extremely wooden rendering) on basis of the narrow reading of "seyya.m
> ... labhanti".

Mmd glosses "seyya.m" with "navalokuttaradhamma.m". Nothing wooden about
that.

> I regard the commentarial traditions with an eyebrow raised; for
> example, I do not see any reason to suppose that "naya" in this
> passage is intended by its author to infer eightfold path, etc.

What makes you so sure that this "eightfold path" interpretation of
"naya".came from the commentarial tradition? Actually, it's my own. Mmd
doesn't seem to say much about "naya" but Kacc-va.n.n gives "saddanayo"
which is explained in detail in the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii: sixfold naya,
threefold naya, and fourfold naya (all described). Quite different from what
I was thinking. "Naya" seems to have something to do with what is to be
inferred or known. The compound "jineritanayena" is a kammadhaaraya. There
are plenty of helpful comments and we'd be much the poorer without them.

Best wishes,
Jim

2084
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:31 pm 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi Eisel,

A few additional comments.

> > I do not think it would in any wise be an improvement to use
> > "Excellence" (noun) for "Seyya"; my prefernce for translating with
> > various phrases resembing "one's own betterment" in this context has
> > its grounds (although you may disagree with them). I think that some
> > sense of the reflexive (or: passive) needs to be preserved in the
> > translation.

The difference seems to be that you are basing "betterment" on the
comparative "seyya" (better) and I with my "excellence" on the superlative
(best). A better alternative to "excellence" in my translation might be "the
best" (i.e. the summum bonum).

I repeat your translation of the first line:

"For their own betterment, [many would] follow the ethic of the
all-conquering [Buddha],"

Why have you left out "the wise" (budhaa), the agent? I'm sure "seyya.m" is
the object or patient of "labhanti" (obtain, acquire, gain, etc.). It's
possible to interpret the verb as an attanopada (middle or reflexive voice:
obtain for themselves). The Skt. Dhaatupaatha has it listed as an
atmanepada.

All the Best,
Jim

2085
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:33 am 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi Jim,

   I'm just about to get on the long bus to Cambodia (followed by a
long boat trip down the Mekong ... possibly to the bottom of the
Mekong, so to speak).

   Re: "Budha", in the introductory verses ("proem"), various footnotes
indicate that this is an un-natural contraction of Buddha forced to
fit the metrical requirements of the line (I am recalling this from
memory; I believe you will find it noted in the PDF to my Pali text of
the passage).  If this is untrue, the entire passage should be
re-interpreted as an homage to the planet Mercury (NB: yes, I am
joking).

   You are correct that I read seyya (etc.) as comparative, and in a
reflexive sense.

   However, I stop short of using terms such as "self-improvement".

   In the context of an introduction to a grammatical work, I am
hesitatnt to assign such soteriological implications to "Naya"
--another use of the word we've discussed at length is in verse 11.

   A derivative of the word (Naya) is still used (I believe) for the
neighborhood paramilitaries here in Laos (mutatis mutandis) --one of
their local offices is only a few doors down the block from me in
Vientiane.  Their evenign guard tends to consist of teenagers with
machine guns, who sit around and chat, and, effectively, reduce the
crime rate to zero in a 15 metre radius around their office, having
little effect beyond that range.

E.M.

2086
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:18 am 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi Eisel,

>   I'm just about to get on the long bus to Cambodia (followed by a
> long boat trip down the Mekong ... possibly to the bottom of the
> Mekong, so to speak).

Have a pleasant and safe journey! I too will soon be getting on the bus
(tomorrow) for a 10 day visit to Orillia (25 miles distant).

>   Re: "Budha", in the introductory verses ("proem"), various footnotes
> indicate that this is an un-natural contraction of Buddha forced to
> fit the metrical requirements of the line (I am recalling this from
> memory; I believe you will find it noted in the PDF to my Pali text of
> the passage).  If this is untrue, the entire passage should be
> re-interpreted as an homage to the planet Mercury (NB: yes, I am
> joking).

Although the word "budha" (a wise or learned man) isn't listed in the PED,
it is found at Abh 228 among 25 synonyms of a wise man. It's also in Apte's
Skt. dictionary but with 3 additional meanings: a god, a dog, and the planet
Mercury. It's certainly not a contraction of Buddha but a simple derivation
from the root "budh" plus the primary suffix "a".

>   You are correct that I read seyya (etc.) as comparative, and in a
> reflexive sense.
>
>   However, I stop short of using terms such as "self-improvement".
>
>   In the context of an introduction to a grammatical work, I am
> hesitatnt to assign such soteriological implications to "Naya"
> --another use of the word we've discussed at length is in verse 11.

The "naye" in Kc 11 is a verb in the optative, 3rd pers. sing. whereas the
"-nayena" in the proem is a noun but, of course, they're both derived from
the same root "nii". I'm now not so sure if "by means of the Method
explained by the Conqueror" is a fair rendering of "jineritanayena". Another
possibility might be "in the way or manner taught by the Conqueror".
However, I need to do some further investigation of the term "naya". One of
the nayas enumerated in the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii (p. 21) is the naya of
avoiding the two extremes (as set forth in the Buddha's first discourse).

Best wishes,
Jim

2087
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:15 am 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

I am now writing from the glistening, black, menacing, millipede of a
city that is Phnom Penh.

> Although the word "budha" (a wise or learned man) isn't listed in the PED,
> it is found at Abh 228 among 25 synonyms of a wise man. It's also in Apte's
> Skt. dictionary but with 3 additional meanings: a god, a dog, and the planet
> Mercury.

Yes, I think you probably could have guessed from my prior message
that I am well familiar with the term (thus my stated jest that we
would have to interpret the verse as praising the planet Mercury)
--however, unless you would actively refute the proposition that the
metre requires the contraction (e.g., count out the syllables) it does
seem a very likely explanation.  "Buddha" makes more sense than
"Budha" in the passage.

> One of
> the nayas enumerated in the Kaccaayanatthadiipanii (p. 21) is the naya of
> avoiding the two extremes (as set forth in the Buddha's first discourse).

Yes, but Jim this is precisely the kind of "valid but spurious"
connotation that commentaries and Pali lists of synonyms present us
with --but should not be allowed to intrude into the (genuinely alien)
context and context of the passage we're looking at.  If we were to
consider all meanings listed in such sources as equally valid, we
would have to consider the Pali word "white" as meaning "exposed bone"
in each and every context --as the commentaries (etc.) list this,
because on a single occasion, in a single verse, "white" is used with
this implied meaning.

If we want to contrue the argument that Kaccayana was a devotee of the
planet mercury, and that every grammatical use of "naya" in fact
implies a sermon on "the middle path" then we certainly *can* do so
--but we merely *should* not.

E.M.

2088
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:30 pm 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Eisel,

> Yes, I think you probably could have guessed from my prior message
> that I am well familiar with the term (thus my stated jest that we
> would have to interpret the verse as praising the planet Mercury)
> --however, unless you would actively refute the proposition that the
> metre requires the contraction (e.g., count out the syllables) it does
> seem a very likely explanation.  "Buddha" makes more sense than
> "Budha" in the passage.

The main difference is that the form "budhaa" in the sense of "wise persons"
can include ordinary (but capable) individuals who would otherwise be
excluded if the sense were "buddhas" alone. I guess it's up to each reader
to decide which makes more sense.

Requoting the text and your translation of the first line:

seyya.m jineritanayena budhaa labhanti,

<< For their own betterment, [many would] follow the ethic of the
all-conquering [Buddha], >>

I don't think your translation reflects the simple Pali syntactical
structure of patient-instrument-agent-action.

"the ethic of the all-conquering [Buddha]" is not the patient or object of
"follow" in the Pali. Instead, "jineritanayena" functions as the instrument
(kara.na) or the means by which the action of obtaining or arriving at
excellence is accomplished and it is "seyya.m" that is the patient of
"labhanti". Also, you seem to be interpreting "budhaa" as "many" for the
agent of the verb.

Jim

2089
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:46 pm 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi Jim,

>  Also, you seem to be interpreting "budhaa" as "many" for the
>  agent of the verb.

No, I'm imputing [many] as the unstated subject, viz., the many
(miscellaneous) people who aspire to "obtain" the "Excellence" you're
talking about.

[Many] is not a reading of Budha.

E.M.

2090
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:07 am 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1

Comments on Eisel Mazard's English translation of Kacc 1.1, distributed 11/10
and amended 11/12.

      Most of the comments generated to date concern the meaning of the text. 
My comments concern rather how best to convey the meaning (that we for the most part understand) in English.  Some if not all of these matters may have come up for discussion before I joined the group.  If so I apologize for the irrelevance.

      (i)   'The Book of Euphony'  I take this to be a translation of sandhikappa. 
Regardless of when in the course of development of the text these headings
appeared, this seems to me a bad translation.  Kappa does not mean 'book' and
sandhi does not mean 'euphony'.  I think the best way to translate kappa (if it needs
to be translated at all) in this context is the very vague 'part' or 'section'.  'Sandhi' is
a perfectly good English word, found in as many dictionaries as 'euphony'.  Of
course it is a borrowing (so is 'euphony', though of Greek rather than Indic origin)
and a technical term (so is 'euphony').  My suggestion to replace 'the Book of
Euphony': '(Part I:) Sandhi'
      (ii)  'Syllables' and 'letters'  In 1:1:1 the Pali word akkhara is translated
in these two ways.  To be sure, they are the two English equivalents given in (say)
Buddhadatta's dictionary.  But syllables and letters are not the same thing.  It might
be appropriate to translate the same word in different ways if the author is
equivocating, or if the vutti misunderstands the sutta.  But that is not the case here. 
We need to decide whether KV is talking about syllables or letters.  Notice finally
that in this translation, the vutti on 1:1:2 is rendered senseless to any one who does
not realize that 'letter' and 'syllable' are translations of the same Pali word:
      These are termed "letters".?
      For what reason is this taught?  The meaning is made known by syllables.
Since 'letter' takes over in the following suttas, it may be the choice.
      But I think both 'syllable' and 'letter' are bad, and akkhara should be
uniformly translated here as 'sound'.  In English, 'syllable' does not refer to a
primitive: syllables are composed of sounds, vowels and consonants.  Similarly,
'letter' refers to something intended to represent a sound.  So unless we have reason
to think that KV is distiguishing akkhara from its components or from what it
represents (and we do not), then 'sound' is a better translation.  Also we should
remember that in India, as opposed to Europe, the analysis of language preceded
the introduction of writing.  Thus at the earliest level terms like akkhara could not
have referred to letters because there weren't any.  This is quite a different matter
from whether or not in particular works reference may be found to orthographic
practice (as Ole Pind maintains is the case of KV 1:1:10-11).?

      (iii)  The use of quotes in the translation is inconsistent.  Why, for example,
do we see "short" in 1:1:4, but not "long" in 1:1:5?

      (iv)  The romanization is also inconsistent.  For example, we find ca cha ja
jha a in 1:1:6, but c ch j jh  in 1:1:7.  Presumably 1:1:7 was intended to look
like 1:1:6 (i. e. syllables), but I think one could argue that the reverse is a better
translation.

      (v)  I do not have much constructive to say about 1:1:10-11, since I am not
privy to the considerations which prompted the revised translation.  But I find the
translation unsatisfactory for two reasons.  First, it makes little sense in its context. 
If these suttas are concerned with mechanical details of sandhi, why do they appear
among the preliminary phonetic definitions?  Second, to reach the translation,
contamination has to be assumed.  If in the transmission, suttas can have their order
reversed, why has no one suggested, for example, that the word adho.thita.m is an
interpolation from a later date?

George Bedell

2091
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:48 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Hi George,

I haven't heard from you in a long time.

Some of your comments are useful; however, I find it rather startling
that (like Jim) you presuppose that I am absolutely jejune, and that I
am somehow accidently stumbling into translations, rather than having
prior awareness of the various issues you now raise, and then having
made deliberative decisions as to what word to select, or what kind of
construction to opt for, etc.

I rather sigh at the thought of going through the minutiae of
justifying my choice of such words as "book", and "Euphony" --but, as
always, some of these reflect "cultural" differences between us (viz.,
between George, as a pure linguist, and myself as an impure
philosophaster, merely straying into the applied science of
languages).

In the English language "Book" is commonly used to refer to a
subdivision of a single, printed volume in English (Don't believe me?
Check the Christian Bible, a work of some minor linguistic influence),
and I feel that this is an appropriate usage for many other reasons as
well --including, e.g., the fact that MS copies of Kaccayana are often
bound as a series of separate books (volumes) by Kando. The
sandhikappa is very much encountered as "a book" unto itself in the
context of a monastic library.

George has stated that "Euphony" is inappropriate, but has not given a
single reason; he has simply stated it, then repeated it, and heaped
scorn on the word in passing for being Greek in origin.  Well, so
what?  Some of my best friends are Greek.

George, one of the reasons why I do not simply say "(Part I:)" as you
suggest, is because the numbering of the chapters and "books" of
Kaccayana is quite a complicated matter, that I have to provide
several pages explaining (with tables) in the introduction to the
book.  The numbering is problematic, and is rather a modern
preoccupation; traditional monks know the sections by their names, not
their numbers, precisely because it is a memoriter work.

Although I will re-examine 1:1:2 to consider Bedell's statement that
it would be difficult for the Pali illiterati to interpret because of
the "equivocal" use of the word "syllable", I am generally rather
froward that this line of complaint has presupposed that I made the
translation decisions at random, or out of pure ignorance.  Kacc. is
primarily a vocal and memoriter work, in which the alphabet is being
memorized and read aloud (not written out); in this context, I might
well use "syllable" when referring to the letters of the alphabet,
wherein the implicit "a" is indeed attached to every segment of the
alphabet being recited. I would not use "sound" because this is too
general a unit of languge; the sequence /'ngkha.m/ is one sound, and
one syllable (orthographically, it forms a single unit in the ancient
scripts, too), but the level of analysis of language present in
Kaccayana does not let us treat it as a single akkhara, nor is it
found in the alphabet. The student is learning a more basic unit that
comprises /'ngkha.m/; and, of course, an akkhara such as a vowel can
sometimes be a sound or syllable unto itself, and sometimes be
subordinated to other --letters.

Obversely, as the discussion of the tenth verse has now made
redundantly clear, Kacc is not a pre-literate work; however, the dawn
of writing in India seems to me significantly earlier than some
romantic sources would have us believe.

George is correct that the use of quotations should be consistent; I
will revise accordingly.

I think that the complaints about 10-11 are valid, but do not really
concern the work of the translator; complaints should be sent to the
original author, through methods unavailable to us at present.

In any case, I can hardly be responsible for the fact that the content
of these verses does not suit the supposed title of the chapter.

E.M.

2092
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:58 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  
_____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af gdbedell
Sendt: 19. november 2006 10:08
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [palistudy] Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1



  < Thus at the earliest level terms
like akkhara could not have referred to letters because there weren't any.
This is quite a
different matter from whether or not in particular works reference may be
found to
orthographic practice (as Ole Pind maintains is the case of KV 1:1:10-11) >

The Pali grammarians address written Pali. The same is true of the earliest
recorded Prakrit grammar attributed to Vararuci.

<  why has no one
suggested, for example, that the word adho.thita.m is an interpolation from
a later date  >

adha.hsthita, the Sanskrit equivalent of adho.thita, is found in a similar
context in Vararuci's  Prakrit grammar (Praak.rtaprakaa.sa) III.2 . It
denotes the second consonant of a cluster e.g. /p/ of uppala < Sanskrit
utpala (lotus), which is written below the first /p/ of the cluster, thereby
becoming "above"  ( upari ) the line, see op.cit.  III.1. Both terms occur
in the ct. on Kacc 1.1.10-11. Now in the ct. on Kacc 11 ,  the illustration
from Dhammapada 275 traayam aadi presupposes tatra + ayam etc. The vowel /a/
is removed from the cluster /tr/ and put (i.e. written) above the line and
combined with /a/ of ayam > aayam. In any case, Kacc is a late compilation,
ca. 6-7th century AD.

O le Holten Pind

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2093
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:56 pm 
Subject: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1

Eisel,

      As usual, I am impressed by the speed with which you respond to postings
to this group.  I am less impressed by your tendency to interpret disagreements as a
kind of assault on your manhood.  I said that a few of your translations were bad.  I
did not say, nor do I think, that you are therefore an inexperienced, careless,
ignorant or otherwise bad translator.

      (i)  `The Book of Euphony' as a translation of sandhikappa.  I fear I fail to
see why the use of `book' in the Christian Bible is at all relevant to this point.  And
I heaped no scorn on the word `euphony'.  I did mention that it is of Greek origin,
surely not controversial, and I did say that it is not as good a translation of the Pali
word sandhi as the English word `sandhi'.  I plead guilty to regarding this last point
as obvious enough not to need elaboration.  Since you insist, `euphony' in other
contexts refers to a putative motivation for phonological change, and has an
esthetic sense ("sounds good").  Neither of these holds for `sandhi', either in Pali or
English.  The parentheses on (Part I:) mean that we might choose not to include it,
for the reasons you cite among others.

      But these matters are not the core of my objection to `the Book of Euphony'. 
That phrase feels to me like it belongs in Edmund Spenser, or perhaps J. R. R.
Tolkien, and not in a scholarly translation of a Pali grammar.  I imagine you do not
feel this way, and I agree that "cultural" differences are involved.  I also imagine
that a far larger proportion of the potential users of your translation share my
"culture" than share yours.

      (ii)  `Letter' as a translation of akkhara.  I do not really see how someone
who often stresses that KV is `primarily a vocal and memoriter work, in which the
alphabet is memorized and read aloud (not written out)' can translate akkhara as
`letter'.  Note the word `vocal'.  You are also well aware that Pali is written with
different letters in Colombo, Yangon, Phnom Penh and London.  Since you don't
accept romanization as a fully legitimate way to write it, perhaps London might be
excised; no matter.  Translating akkhara as `letter' invites the absurd inference that
the akkhara are different in those four (or three) places.

      (iii)  `Syllable' as a translation of akkhara.  How many akkhara are there in
the Pali word namo (as in namo bhagavato ...)?  I would say four: n - a - m - o, but
none of them constitutes a syllable in this word.  Translating akkhara as `syllable'
invites the absurd inference that there is only one (of the two syllables, only one
(na) appears in KV's enumeration of akkhara).  You say `sound' is too general to
serve as a translation of akkhara; I say `letter' and `syllable' are too specific, and
lead to the above mentioned absurdities.  /"nkha.m/ is indeed a sound, but it is also
a sequence of sounds.  I doubt it can be regarded as a syllable in Pali.  When such
a sequence occurs, the velar nasal /"n/ is the final consonant of the preceding
syllable.  You confuse the orthography with syllable structure.  I will address the
issues raised by Pind in a separate posting.

      Cheers,

      George Bedell

2094
From: "gdbedell" <gdbedell@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:16 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@...> wrote:

> adha.hsthita, the Sanskrit equivalent of adho.thita, is found in a similar
> context in Vararuci's  Prakrit grammar (Praak.rtaprakaa.sa) III.2 . It
> denotes the second consonant of a cluster e.g. /p/ of uppala < Sanskrit
> utpala (lotus), which is written below the first /p/ of the cluster, thereby
> becoming "above"  ( upari ) the line, see op.cit.  III.1. Both terms occur
> in the ct. on Kacc 1.1.10-11. Now in the ct. on Kacc 11 ,  the illustration
> from Dhammapada 275 tatraayam aadi presupposes tatra + ayam etc. The vowel
/a/
> is removed from the cluster /tr/ and put (i.e. written) above the line and
> combined with /a/ of ayam > aayam. In any case, Kacc is a late compilation,
> ca. 6-7th century AD.
>
> Ole Holten Pind

      Though I am not familiar with Vararuci, and have no access to a copy at the
moment, I have no difficulty with what you say about consonant clusters like 'pp'. 
They are indeed often (though not always) written in a vertical arrangement.  But I
do have difficulty applying this to the example in Kacc 10, which has nothing to do
with vertically arranged consonant clusters, but with vowel sandhi in which 'a'
followed by 'a' becomes 'aa'.  The latter is never, so far as I am aware, written in two
vertically arranged components,  Rather the first 'a' is the inherent vowel, not
written at all, and the second is written with a separate `letter' which sometimes
acts like a `dummy' consonant to which a diacritic vowel mark may be added. 
When they are combined into 'aa[, this is written with a diacritic
stroke following the consonant or cluster but not above or below it.

      It seems to me if we want to interpret what KV says in 10 and 11 with
reference to orthography, we need to know what orthography was in use when KV
was compiled, or at least what conventions it had for representing the results of
sandhi.  Do we in fact know anything which is not inferred from grammars like KV
or Vararuci?  Eisel Mazard sometimes refers to a convention for overlapping (or
repeating?) syllables in compounds, not seen in modern texts.  How is this
relevant?

George Bedell

2095
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:43 am 
Subject: Re: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

George,

The problem is that you say these word choices are "bad" and asserted
your own as "good" with no stated reasons as to why; as I pressed the
point with "Euphony", I now know your reasons; however, I disagree
with them (see below).  Again, I was already aware of these issues
before making the decision to translate in this way; you have not told
me anything (in this wise) that I did not already know, nor with the
other examples of word choice as cited.

I have not been trucculent, and I do not feel that my "manhood" has
been attacked (as you put it); but if you had written, "I disagree
with your selection of the word /X/ for reason /Y/" then that would
have been useful as, (1) it would have presented a rational argument,
and (2) it would have tacitly acknowleged that my own translation
choices are indeed based on rational arguments --or "decisions".

I think that anyone would have found quite insulting your direct
statements that there was "no reason" for a given choice "except that
it is listed in Buddhadatta's dictionary as such"; this does not
imply, but directly MEANS that you believe I am jejunely looking up
words in the Pali-Enlglish dictionary, and relying upon it in an
uncritical, irrational, or childlike manner.

As it happens, your objection to the words "Book" and "Euphony" are
revealed as having no semantic basis, but as being quite irrational
and emotional in their basis; that being the case, you could have more
properly written "As a favour to me, would you change this to..."
--given that there is no sense in which "Book" is in any way a "bad
translation" (your term) nor in which "the aesthetic sense of
'Euphony'" is unwanted or irrelevant in the Pali context.

> But these matters are not the core of my objection to `the Book of Euphony'.
That
> phrase feels to me like it belongs in Edmund Spenser, or perhaps J. R. R.
Tolkien, and not
> in a scholarly translation of a Pali grammar. I imagine you do not feel this
way, and I agree
> that "cultural" differences are involved.

First you insult me by calling my words "Greek", now by comparing me
to popular novelists!  (NOTE TO JIM: YES, I AM JOKING).  For the
record, I've never heard of Ed Spenser, and I've never read J.R.R.
Tolkien.

> I also imagine that a far larger proportion of the
> potential users of your translation share my "culture" than share yours.

Gee, I don't know, George, I just came back from meetings at the
Buddhist Institute at Phnom Penh, and I really don't see that you have
a lot of common ground with the average, intermediate Palicist that
I've met in my lifetime.

George, did you ever get around to reading Deshpande's _Sanskrit and
Prakrit: Sociolinguistic Issues_?  I still feel that many of your
comments reflect a lack of background on the Pali langauge "as such",
and you're presuming to "reproach" me with factoids that I not only
have prior familiarity with --but seem to know more about than you do.
  I don't think that you've done nearly as much research on the
meaning(s) of the word akkhara as I have; while I'm entirely willing
to concede that the context-sensitive use of "letter" as equivalent is
an imperfect solution, I'm really not willing to discuss this further
with you, as I just don't think you're playing with a full deck. You
know full well that the concept of "letter" is not identical to
"glyph", nor necessarily implies writing (e.g., "by the letter of the
law" as opposed to "by the spirit" --check a dictionary, "letter" does
not always mean a written glyph) --just as, before, you must have
known that "book" can mean a section of a bound volume.  But, as I
say, you're leaving some cards out of the deck to make over-the-top
arguments that seem to mask that fact that your objections are more
"cultural" than "factual".

I would agree that linguistic terms such as "morpheme" and "phoneme"
are more accurate than "letter" and "syllable" --and I will
re-consider the matter-- but I am reluctant to use such jargon in the
main text of the translation (whereas the footnotes are more jargon
heavy) --as I know that many of my readers will be
English-as-a-second-language.

E.M.

2096
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:56 am 
Subject: Eng translation Kacc 1:10-11 (Ole & George)  

George (& Ole),

> But I do have difficulty
> applying this to the example in Kacc 10, which has nothing to do with
vertically arranged
> consonant clusters, but with vowel sandhi in which 'a' followed by 'a' becomes
'aa'. The
> latter is never, so far as I am aware, written in two vertically arranged
components...

It does occur in some epigraphy that I have seen (e.g., from Burma) in
which an initial a ("capital a") is written in subscript precisely as
described.

If you don't believe me, I could indeed try to laboriously scan in a
few examples; but I would prefer that you simply believe me.

> When they are combined into 'aa[, this is written with a diacritic
> stroke following the consonant or cluster but not above or below it.

(1) It is not clear at all that the locus of the verse is expressly
addressing /a/ becoming /aa/ (i.e., the rule can/should include
instances in which /a/ remains /a/, among others)
(2) Initial vowels written as subscripts did exist --but, like the
later redactor of the vutti, George, you do not know this because the
orthographic praxis has become "out of vogue" in your era.  The
millennia are merciless that way!

> Eisel Mazard
> sometimes refers to a convention for overlapping (or repeating?) syllables in
compounds,
> not seen in modern texts.

This seems to be an important demonstration of how difficult it is to
clearly communicate anything about orthography in Romanized script; at
some stage, George has mis-understood something I've written in my own
idiom --either that, or I'm wildly mis-understanding his re-statement
of something I've said myself.

E.M.

2097
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:47 am 
Subject: The situation in Cambodia (with special reference to Pali studies)
 

[I provide the following with a minimum of novelistic description, as
I know it is not appreciated by some on the list, and report on the
state of the libraries, etc., as salient for Pali studies in the
area.]

I proceeded south from Vientiane along the Mekong, by bus and such,
crossing the border at Voeng Kham.

Both the towns of Stung Treng and Kratche (also writ /Kratie/) would
be suitable bases of operation for a scholar --in that they neither
have the impediments nor the opportunities presented by Phnom Penh.  I
could quite understand a scholar taking either of these (depopulated)
cities as a base of operations for their research; generally, Cambodia
East of the Mekong is more depopulated and dis-aggregated than
Cambodia to the West (the East was formerly "Codename: Freedom Deal",
and suffered the worst of the U.S. bombing).

Although Laos is poor, even the poor do not eat broken rice; at
relatively lucrative road-side restaurants in Cambodia's North-East,
the people are still eating short-grain, broken rice.  This is a
subtle but telling clue as to how deep the poverty runs here, in
contrast even to a very poor neighbour like Laos; it was also telling
to see the paucity of fruit and vegetables on sale at the markets --in
contrast to Laos or even adjacent parts of the same country.

Overland transit remains exhausting, but, sadly, water transport has
ceased to be an option along this stretch of the Mekong.  Five years
ago, a boat could be taken from the Lao border south to Stung Treng
for $5; today, the same ride will cost you $50, and a slightly longer
jaunt from Kratche to Phnom Penh will cost you $100 or more.  The
reason is economic: improvements to the roads have drawn away the
low-end customers, and the effects of supply and demand have driven up
the price per boat (and the number of boats plying the trade has
fallen exponentially).

The Buddhist Institute (B.I.) in Phnom Penh is set out on a hexagonal
floorplan, with architecture devised to announce its ambitions to the
world; it is, on the whole, much more gaudy than the calm (modernist)
exterior of the casino next door --and with good reason, I suppose, as
it has a harder time attracting business.

The library at the B.I. was the only truly hopeful sight of the trip;
it is well organised, well equipped, and truly provides both a space
where a scholar can work long hours, and a significant range of books
to work upon.  They have many donations from Sri Lanka and the
Taiwanese _Corporate Body..._ foundation --generally, it is a sound
and extensive collection of materials in English and French (comparing
favourably to any University I've seen in Asia --although not to major
Universities in the West), that are well presented, and (unlike
Bangkok) free from the predations of insects and mice.  They still
lack the Buddha Jayanti edition, but have the rest of the range of
major Tipitakas (PTS, Burmese, the Indian Devanagari edition, the
various Thai edition, and the Khmer edition itself, of course).  As
part of their mandate, they have everything ever printed on Buddhism
in the Khmer language --but I cannot evaluate this side of their work
at all.

The B.I. has two "Pali specialists" (although others told me there was
only one who could read Pali --and these are not mutually-exclusive
possibilities) who were decidedly not happy to see me --quite possibly
because of prior experiences with outside specialists.  They had been
told of my coming (and my "credentials", such as they are) long in
advance, and knew that I would be visiting their department that day,
so this was not a spontaneous display on their part; the "Cultural
Specialist" was also aloof, but Pali is tertiary among her abilities,
so this may have come more naturally to her.

The director and administrator were extremely happy to see me, and we
discussed various possible modes of co-operation, current and future
research proejcts, at length, with the administrator serving as an
interpreter.  It is obvious to me that what they really need is a very
elementary, trilingual textbook for Pali --and I can easily provide
two-thirds of this from materials already on my hard-drive.  However,
I would need to work closely with at least one capable (or
enthusiastic) translator to render the English instruction into Khmer
(the task would be simple enough that enthusiasm would be a substitute
for capability to a significant extent; however, they do not seem to
have anyone who could volunteer).

I separately met with Bhante Sovan-Ratana, who is clearly capable of
becoming a towering figure in monastic scholarship in the near future;
he received his first PhD in Sri Lanka (and became fluent in English
there) and is now moving on to a second in the U.S.A., it seems. He
was hoping to lead a revival of Pali/Theravada scholarship at the
Buddhist University in Phnom Penh, but "political changes" in the
administration have made this impossible, and stymied his ambitions
for various improvements and reforms; thus, his hopes to contribute to
scholarship in his native land seem to have come to a halt, at least
for the time being, and he is pursuing another PhD (apparently)
because his talents will be wasted if he remains at home in the
current situation.  While I sympathize with his situation, the fact
that the University cannot retain him (viz., an unsalaried monk whose
first language is Khmer) made it seem all the more unlikely that they
could retain me in any capacity whatsoever; the salary for a full
professor there was reported to me as $2 per hour (or less, depending
upon experience).

I also met with Dr. Penny Edwards, who is currently coming to the end
of a long period of research and activity in Phnom Penh.

I was assured that the national archives do not hold Pali MS (and I
was given prior warning as to what to expect from the MS from
Filliozat, so did not inquire overmuch) but, all the same, I should
mention that the archives are in a beautiful building, with a small,
beautiful garden, with the added bonus (or source of public revenue
collection) that you can buy any of the plants in the garden to carry
home with you.  However, the archives are not so comfortable a place
to pass long periods of time in study.

The B.I. and the archives both have bookshops that are not
particularly useful for the members of this list; Pali resources are
more easily found at temple bookshops (even though they are printed by
the B.I. in most cases) where they are largely limited to (1) a Khmer
Pali primer, (2) a Khmer-Pali dictionary, and (3) a Khmer and Pali
edition of the Patimokkha.  I bought only the latter (does Nyanatusita
have a copy of the Khmer version of this yet?).

The supposed rivalry between the Mahanikaya and the Dhammayut has been
"reconstructed" quite recently in Cambodia --with the most easily
perceptible difference between them being the pronunciation of Pali in
chanting.  I heard some excellent chanting around Cambodia --that is,
excellent in aesthetic terms-- none of it comprehensible to my
untrained ear (or, my Laotian-trained ear).

Battambang now has a veneer of wealth that was lacking in earlier
descriptions of the town, and they have invested in a series of
beautifications that truly make the downtown (riverside) area of the
town quite charming.  Again, with the selection of desolate colonial
and "Art Deco" buildings to choose from, I could easily understand a
scholar taking Battambang as a base of operations (viz., avoiding the
menace and expense of Phnom Penh); however, with the sunset, the
beggars and amputees take to the streets, and demonstrate that while
Battambang has its veneer intact, the legacy of war remains the
substratum beneath.

E.M.

2098
From: "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@mail.dk> 
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:23 am 
Subject: SV: Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1  

Re akkhara

I have no problem with "letter" as an adequate translation of akkhara. Of
course, phoneme might be preferable to indicate that we are talking about
types, like the Sanskrit grammarian Patanjali who stated that any rule
concerning /a/ addresses the a-kula, the family of as. In any case, letters
were evidently known to the early Buddhists because Rhys Davids once noticed
that the canonical reference to akkharikaa - a kind of children's play -
could only refer to writing letters on each other backs and guessing what
letter it might be. Well, he relied on Buddhaghosa for his interpretation,
but I think Buddhaghosa was well informed.

Ole Holten Pind


   _____

Fra: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] P vegne
af Eisel Mazard
Sendt: 22. november 2006 14:44
Til: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [palistudy] Re: Eng translation of Kacc 1:1



George,

The problem is that you say these word choices are "bad" and asserted
your own as "good" with no stated reasons as to why; as I pressed the
point with "Euphony", I now know your reasons; however, I disagree
with them (see below). Again, I was already aware of these issues
before making the decision to translate in this way; you have not told
me anything (in this wise) that I did not already know, nor with the
other examples of word choice as cited.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2099
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:51 pm 
Subject: Kacc 1:1; early date of Pali literacy  

I generally agree that the Pali canon as we have it now reflects
awareness of literacy; the trouble is that the heterogenous nature of
the canon allows modern scholars to dismiss such evidence as later
additions.  While this tendency is understandable, I do not feel that
it is informed by skepticism, but seems instead to proceeed from a
highly romanticized (and un-historical) attachment to the notion that
the Suttas were preserved in a purely oral form for a mythical
duration of time before arriving in Sri Lanka (where, supposedly, they
were written for absolutely the first time, with no prior precedent,
modern assumption has it, rather than collated as a written corpus for
the first time, with various imperfect precedents).

Among the interesting quotations reflecting awareness of literacy was
the phrase "unwritten leaf", implying an awareness of such a thing as
a written leaf, quoted by a Burmese essayist --but I could not (or did
not) trace the original Pali of that quote.  There are other, better
known examples.

For no good reason Ashavghosa's hagiography of the Buddha is
frequently quoted as evidence in debates of these kinds, but his work
is spurious for obvious reasons (i.e., the date of its composition,
and the language that it's in).

E.M.

2100
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:41 am 
Subject: Monks rape, decapitate woman: Cambodia  

I would note that the current issue of the Phnom Penh Post reports
that two monks were part of a team of four men who gang-raped and then
decapitated a woman in Cambodia.

The same page of the paper reports that the scholar Michael Vickery
publicly made the statement "I love everybody" while at a bar
--supposedly an unexpected contrast to his reputation as a curmudgeon.

[Full text of the story:]
NOVEMBER 3: Two monks were among four men arrested for the rape and
murder of a woman three days earlier in Char village, Kampong Speu
province. Police said the two monks, Lai Ra, 18, and Phoeun Vannak,
20, along with two other arrested people, Phon Samon, 20, and San
Sokmin, 17, raped Tun Koun, 41, then decapitated her.
-----
E.M.

2101
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:03 am 
Subject: Translating the word "Akkhara"  

A wildly original suggestion: smidin.

Following on our recent discussion, I am more inclined than ever to
use the English term "Letter" as equivalent to Pali /Akkhara/ except
where the context demands "syllable", however, I think I have found
another word, that:
   (1) Is not linguistic jargon,
   (2) Is not greek,
   (3) Does not entail confusion about the spoken vs. orthographic
sense of the referent,
   (4) Is not a mere repetition of the Pali word,
   (5) Indicates an appropriately small unit of language,

That word is: smidin.

It's a proper English word (neither a Greek loan-word nor a Sanskrit
one) and means a unit of language smaller than a syllable, or a very
short syllable (thus, /ka/, but not /'ngkha.m/).  It is listed in
English dictionaries, although, perhaps, only the best and most
extensive of English dictionaries.

Smidin.

Problem solved.

E.M.

(Note to Jim: yes, I am joking, but Smidin is a real word!)

2102
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 9:51 pm 
Subject: "Si ti tha" = "Siddha" (Lao Pali)  

The Laotian gov't officials I spoke with late into last night insisted
on using the english word "God" to refer to various aspects of
Buddhism in a wildly incomprehensible way; for example, they insisted
that "Si Ta Tha" (= /Siddha/?) is "the father of the Buddha" and is
"God", and "started" circa 2,500 years ago.  This is, in their words,
"The God of Buddhism", although not a person, and is the father of the
Buddha, but not in any corporeal sense, and is not confused with the
actual king who sired him, etc.  An official knew one legit Pali
quotation, but insisted that he was not quoting the Buddha, but this
"Si Ta Tha" again; he was somewhat froward when I said that the quote
he recalled was genuine, but spoken by the Buddha himself, not by this
"Father" or "God".

The local "version" of Buddhism, by the way, that they now teach in
the temples, is full of precisely the kind of half-truth of
convenience that I absolutely can't stand in any culture or
philosophical context; e.g., it's okay to drink alcohol as long as you
don't start a fight, it's okay to kill a mosquito if it was about to
sting you, etc. etc. --and, "in the opposite direction" very much
simplified teachings about having only one wife and adultery that are
much more restrictive than the writ of the Pali canon by far.

E.M.

2103
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 1:43 am 
Subject: Skilling's reply (Fragile Palm Leaves)  

Dear Eisel Hazard,

Here are some notes on your communiqu of 11/10/06.

> If we're going to talk about Skilling in earnest, then, here is a
> summary of what little I know, and if Skilling himself or anyone else
> would be so kind as to contradict my one-sided understanding, I am
> indeed willing and eager to learn that I may be wrong.
>
I am afraid most of what you have written is inaccurate, so I offer some
corrections. I wonder where you picked up many of the ideas.


1) The purchase of manuscripts stopped by the year 2000 at the latest.
Fragile Palm Leaves has not bought manuscripts since that year. We stopped
for a number of reasons, the main one being that the crisis as we perceived
it - the flood of manuscripts - had ceased.


2)

>Over the past five years I have spoken with many scholars about Peter
> Skilling's "Fragile Palm Leaves" Project, and virtually every one of
> them has expressed some form of moral reservation about it --along
> with raising speculations as to its legality.

The project has been supported by many people, including scholars and monks.
I also know several scholars who have questioned or opposed it. We have
discussed the matter with good will and agreed to differ.


3)

> At its most basic, the Project *does* buy manuscripts from "dealers"
> and "smugglers", and has built up its inventory in what could be
> called an ethical and legislative grey area.

As noted above, the Project no longer buys manuscripts, and has not done so
for over six years. Those that were collected were bought from merchants and
shop-keepers on the open market. It is a bit of a dramatization to say they
were bought from "smugglers".

4)

> Fundamentally, the project's money *is* directly encouraging the
> illegal trade in Pali MS flowing out of Burma and into Thailand.

When the project began, and as it continued, we were aware of and regularly
discussed this problem. We decided to accept the risk for what we considered
a worthy cause.

5)

> The indirect effects are also significant: there is now a large
> collection of MS in Taiwan that was acquired (reportedly) entirely by
> Taiwanese private collectors buying what Skilling passed over or
> rejected in his own shopping for "his" collection.

I do not think there is any evidence or foundation at all for this report.
When Fragile Palm Leaves entered the scene, there was already a booming
market with its own momentum - that was what prompted us to act. The
merchants said from the very beginning that the main buyers were from
Taiwan. I know of two collections in Taiwan. One, purchased in one lot by a
Buddhist institute, claims to go back many years, perhaps decades. Another,
belonging to a private individual, I know only by hearsay - it appears to
have its own origins.

6) Fragile Palm Leaves has never set itself up as an example. It did what it
did at the time out of a sincere belief that it was necessary. Others
disagree, and it is their right to do so.

I have personally discouraged several people in several countries from
following the example, or have at least pointed out to them the problems,
which are those you mention.

7)
> It seems to me that there is a complex balancing act so far as the
> legal and financial backing of the project is concerned, with various
> promises having been made to (and by) the PTS, the Thai authorities,
> and (directly or indirectly) the Myanmar Junta in Pyinmana --who still
> have some hypothetical legal right to their cultural patrimony under
> international and national law, as the Fragile Palm Leaves project
> explicitly recognises.

We are not in touch with and have not made any promises to any of the
authorities you mention. As a small project we have worked quietly on the
personal level with concerned Buddhists.

8)

> This is indeed a subject that has stirred up rumour and innuendo among
> many scholars, and it may well be that I am the victim of a common
> misperception of the facts.

Thank you for recognizing this possibility. I hope you can see from the
above that this is the case.

You are right in describing the purchase of manuscripts as an ethical and
legal grey area. From my perspective, this means an area in which there is
bound to be a wide spectrum of views.

SUMMARY

For a certain period, in the 1990s, a group of people began a project called
Fragile Palm Leaves in response to what they perceived as a crisis: a flood
of Buddhist manuscripts onto open markets. The project established a
Foundation in 2001. For various reasons, one of the primary being that the
flood seemed to have abated and the crisis passed, we stopped any new
purchases by the year 2000. The present concern of the project is to
preserve and catalogue the manuscripts and to make them available digitally
to international institutions and scholars. This goes slowly because of a
severe lack of funds and staff. The project does, however, continue to
receive the support of concerned scholars and Buddhist groups.

The manuscript collection is not the only, or even the main, concern of the
Fragile Palm Leaves Foundation. The foundation is dedicated to the
preservation and study of Buddhist literature in general. It has published
three volumes of the series 'Materials for the Study of the Triptiaka' to
date (2202-2004),and at least five more volumes are nearly ready and should
be published in the year 2007.

Fragile Palm Leaves published a Newsletter from January 2540/1997 to
December 2545/2002, a total of seven issues. Regrettably we have been unable
to produce the Newsletter since, after the departure of the person who
helped with the layout.

Attempts to set up a website since the year 2000 have been unsuccessful,
owing to lack of time and of requisite skills. We hope to set up a site in
2007.

With best regards,

Peter Skilling.

2104
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 9:35 pm 
Subject: Reply to Skilling (Fragile Palm Leaves MS controversy)
 

Dr. Skilling,

   Thank you very much for your reply --I recognise that you have other
priorities to attend to, and appreciate your taking the time to
address the issues raised.

   I do agree with your repeated statement that there is more than one
(legitimate, rational, and defensible) point of view of this issue
--and I would not pretend otherwise.

   My own perspective is partially informed by my prior work in the
"den of thieves" of the Museum trade --but, however black the pot may
call the kettle, I do regard your project as fundamentally less
morally odious than major European museums (viz., imperial
collections) that have alienated huge chunks of cultural patrimony
from Asia, with no intention of (ever) returning them. The Fragile
Palm Leaves project is, at least, keeping Asian manuscripts in Asia,
for the benefit of (and providing access for) Asian scholars.

   By contrast, the Musee Guimet in Paris is a black hole.

   I did not have any particular plan or intention to write an
indictment of the project, but was rather dragooned into doing so
after a lengthy denunication of a passing comment from Dr Justin
McDaniel, whose screed insisted not only that I was entirely wrong,
but that I had no right to state an opinion on the matter --and,
moreover, he seemed to infer that my stated opinion on MS acquisition
policies necessarily entails that I have failed to appreciate your
contribution to the field of Pali studies, etc. etc.

   I do not "fail to appreciate", but rather very much appreciate the
value of your numerous articles, and I have commented many times that
two of them in particular have had a decisive influence on directions
taken in my own studies (viz., your detailing the Oc-Eo inscriptions,
and your issue dedicated to the Mon).

   I regard a difference of opinion on acquisition policies as simply
that --and I am not inclined to adopting a shrill tone on the issue,
as I think I regard it in its correct perspective.  To paraphrase a
Pali source, I choose to regard those difference of opinion that are
profound as profound, and those that are worldly as merely worldly.

   As I mentioned in my prior note, there are numerous issues that I do
adopt a more trenchant tone about (e.g., my recent article on aid
agencies in Laos engaging in child prostition, etc.) --my vantage on
all of these issues, as a perennial outsider, makes it rather too easy
to pass judgement from a presumed position of moral purity.  However,
if I do not take it upon myself to opine, who will?

   The world is worn,
   'Twould be better were we never born,

E.M.


On 12/6/06, Peter Skilling <peski@inet.co.th> wrote:
> Dear Eisel Hazard,
>
> Here are some notes on your communiqu of 11/10/06.
>
> > If we're going to talk about Skilling in earnest, then, here is a
> > summary of what little I know, and if Skilling himself or anyone else
> > would be so kind as to contradict my one-sided understanding, I am
> > indeed willing and eager to learn that I may be wrong.
> >
> I am afraid most of what you have written is inaccurate, so I offer some
> corrections. I wonder where you picked up many of the ideas.
>
>
> 1) The purchase of manuscripts stopped by the year 2000 at the latest.
> Fragile Palm Leaves has not bought manuscripts since that year. We stopped
> for a number of reasons, the main one being that the crisis as we perceived
> it - the flood of manuscripts - had ceased.
>
>
> 2)
>
> >Over the past five years I have spoken with many scholars about Peter
> > Skilling's "Fragile Palm Leaves" Project, and virtually every one of
> > them has expressed some form of moral reservation about it --along
> > with raising speculations as to its legality.
>
> The project has been supported by many people, including scholars and monks.
> I also know several scholars who have questioned or opposed it. We have
> discussed the matter with good will and agreed to differ.
>
>
> 3)
>
> > At its most basic, the Project *does* buy manuscripts from "dealers"
> > and "smugglers", and has built up its inventory in what could be
> > called an ethical and legislative grey area.
>
> As noted above, the Project no longer buys manuscripts, and has not done so
> for over six years. Those that were collected were bought from merchants and
> shop-keepers on the open market. It is a bit of a dramatization to say they
> were bought from "smugglers".
>
> 4)
>
> > Fundamentally, the project's money *is* directly encouraging the
> > illegal trade in Pali MS flowing out of Burma and into Thailand.
>
> When the project began, and as it continued, we were aware of and regularly
> discussed this problem. We decided to accept the risk for what we considered
> a worthy cause.
>
> 5)
>
> > The indirect effects are also significant: there is now a large
> > collection of MS in Taiwan that was acquired (reportedly) entirely by
> > Taiwanese private collectors buying what Skilling passed over or
> > rejected in his own shopping for "his" collection.
>
> I do not think there is any evidence or foundation at all for this report.
> When Fragile Palm Leaves entered the scene, there was already a booming
> market with its own momentum - that was what prompted us to act. The
> merchants said from the very beginning that the main buyers were from
> Taiwan. I know of two collections in Taiwan. One, purchased in one lot by a
> Buddhist institute, claims to go back many years, perhaps decades. Another,
> belonging to a private individual, I know only by hearsay - it appears to
> have its own origins.
>
> 6) Fragile Palm Leaves has never set itself up as an example. It did what it
> did at the time out of a sincere belief that it was necessary. Others
> disagree, and it is their right to do so.
>
> I have personally discouraged several people in several countries from
> following the example, or have at least pointed out to them the problems,
> which are those you mention.
>
> 7)
> > It seems to me that there is a complex balancing act so far as the
> > legal and financial backing of the project is concerned, with various
> > promises having been made to (and by) the PTS, the Thai authorities,
> > and (directly or indirectly) the Myanmar Junta in Pyinmana --who still
> > have some hypothetical legal right to their cultural patrimony under
> > international and national law, as the Fragile Palm Leaves project
> > explicitly recognises.
>
> We are not in touch with and have not made any promises to any of the
> authorities you mention. As a small project we have worked quietly on the
> personal level with concerned Buddhists.
>
> 8)
>
> > This is indeed a subject that has stirred up rumour and innuendo among
> > many scholars, and it may well be that I am the victim of a common
> > misperception of the facts.
>
> Thank you for recognizing this possibility. I hope you can see from the
> above that this is the case.
>
> You are right in describing the purchase of manuscripts as an ethical and
> legal grey area. From my perspective, this means an area in which there is
> bound to be a wide spectrum of views.
>
> SUMMARY
>
> For a certain period, in the 1990s, a group of people began a project called
> Fragile Palm Leaves in response to what they perceived as a crisis: a flood
> of Buddhist manuscripts onto open markets. The project established a
> Foundation in 2001. For various reasons, one of the primary being that the
> flood seemed to have abated and the crisis passed, we stopped any new
> purchases by the year 2000. The present concern of the project is to
> preserve and catalogue the manuscripts and to make them available digitally
> to international institutions and scholars. This goes slowly because of a
> severe lack of funds and staff. The project does, however, continue to
> receive the support of concerned scholars and Buddhist groups.
>
> The manuscript collection is not the only, or even the main, concern of the
> Fragile Palm Leaves Foundation. The foundation is dedicated to the
> preservation and study of Buddhist literature in general. It has published
> three volumes of the series 'Materials for the Study of the Triptiaka' to
> date (2202-2004),and at least five more volumes are nearly ready and should
> be published in the year 2007.
>
> Fragile Palm Leaves published a Newsletter from January 2540/1997 to
> December 2545/2002, a total of seven issues. Regrettably we have been unable
> to produce the Newsletter since, after the departure of the person who
> helped with the layout.
>
> Attempts to set up a website since the year 2000 have been unsuccessful,
> owing to lack of time and of requisite skills. We hope to set up a site in
> 2007.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Peter Skilling.
>

2105
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 11:23 am 
Subject: Re: Reply to Skilling (Fragile Palm Leaves MS controversy)
jimanderson_on 

Dear Eisel,

In reference to how Pali mss from Asia ended up in European collections, I
came across something of interest in K.R. Norman's A Philological Approach
to Buddhism (PTS, 2006) on page 6:

"After the conquest of Upper Burma in 1885 a large part of the royal library
at Mandalay came to England. It is unfortunate that the complete holdings of
the library were not sent, for those manuscripts which did not reach England
at that time have been lost."

No explanation is given as to how the remaining mss came to be lost.

Best wishes,
Jim

2106
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:40 pm 
Subject: 19th c. Pali articles, now on-line  

Although there is much on this web-site that we would all like to
avoid, I will stoop to mentioning that there are some useful (19th c.)
Pali articles now available through the "Sacred Texts" programme:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/etc/index.htm

A few old translations by Fausboll, etc., that are certainly useful
for a man living in my difficult circumstances --aside from a few odd
copies of "Bodhi Leaves", I don't think I own (or have access to) a
single sutta in translation here.

Under the dubious heading of "Southern Buddhism", the same site has a
number of major works by Rhys-Davids now in the public domain (in
defiance of the PTS's wishes, I'm sure):

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm

P.S. to Jim: given your own former requests that I write less
frequently, and less politically, I am not about to provide you with a
hair-raising account of the British "burn, loot, and pillage" policy
in Burma --despite your request that I do so.  It is really outrageous
for a western author to "lament" that the British did not steal more
texts --i.e., presumably to protect them against predation by the
British themselves?

E.M.

2107
From: TK Wen <tzungkuen@yahoo.com.tw> 
Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:14 pm 
Subject: b@&#20010;jѪs&#20065;(ɯ) b@&#20010;jѪs&#20065;(ɯ)

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Sotthi te hotu sabbadaa @֥ûHzMay there always be happiness for you
  ___________________________________________________
  zͬYɳq  qBT֡BͬBu@@dwI
  http://messenger.yahoo.com.tw/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2108
From: "Eisel Mazard" <Parajanaka@gmail.com> 
Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:35 am 
Subject: Stats on monastic schools in Laos (new, 2006)

Painstakingly typed out by yours truly, and direct from a dept of
education report.

These are tab-separated values, so they will be easier to read in a
fixed-width font such as "Courier"

You will note that, overall, roughly 35% of all Lao students are
currently being educated in the monastic system --i.e., not 35% of
male students, but 35% of all enrolled students, regardless of gender.

E.M.

Growth in enrollment 2006 1996 growth cf. 1976
-------------------- ---- ---- ------ --------
Lower secondary stnts 183588 119992 53% 26268
Upper secondary stnts 77209 42163 83.1% 2517
Monastic primary grads 389334 62373 524.2% 18996
Monastic lwr secondary 157701 22652 596.2% 8314
Monastic upr secondary 68074 10251 564.1% 440

Private schools (all) 25466
Kindergartens, etc.	 37786
Primary schools (pub.) 831521
