Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages)

Year 2004: Messages 701-996 (293); January 7 - December 31, 2004
[Deleted messages: 773, 788, 790]

701
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2004 1:36pm
Subject: update

 
    Dear members,

Greetings! I hope you're all doing fine. This message is the first
I've posted to any discussion list since the end of September so it
seems a little strange to be posting again after such a long break. As
this list has been inactive since July 30, I would like to start by
continuing on from where we last left off. I still have to do some
more reviewing work but hope it won't be too long before I'm better
prepared to resume our study of Kaccayana's grammar.

There are some things I would like to change. I think the change I
made last May of focussing primarily on traditional Pali grammars may
sound a little too restrictive for some. I would like its scope to
appear more open and accommodating to the needs and interests of other
members. So any question relating to Pali is welcome. Since its
inception, the group has been closed and inaccessible to non-members
and Yahoogroups does not allow me to change any of this. As a possible
solution to this problem, some time ago I set up the following website
(available for free): http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy as a Palistudy
home page for the general public which could be used to make it easier
for them to come into contact with the group. The webpage needs to be
redone and I plan to put up a full discription about the group, how to
join, and to have a section where anyone can download zipped files of
the archived messages. In time, I would also like to put up articles
and works of interest resulting from our studies.

Looking forward to discussing Pali again with you all soon.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
702
From: Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:02am
Subject: Re: update

 
    Dear Jim,

I'm glad to hear from you again. And it's good to resume Kaccayana's
grammar. If it is possible, when you have the time, would you tell us
more in general the "different" ancient grammars that is available, and
where copies of them can be found. Many thanks.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- Jim Anderson wrote:
I would like its scope to appear more open and accommodating to the
needs and interests of other members. So any question relating to Pali
is welcome.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
 
 
703
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 7:08pm
Subject: Re: update

 
    Dear Yong Peng,

Thanks for responding! The three most important Pali grammars to keep
in mind are: Kaccaayanavyaakara.na (the earliest one), Saddaniiti, &
Moggallaanavyaakara.na. Except for the third volume (suttamaala) of
the Saddaniiti, all are available on the CSCD disk or from
tipitaka.org. The first and last can also be found in the grammar.zip
file from SLTP. Two of the three Kaccaayanavyaakara.na texts I'm using
for our study are from these two sources while the remaining one is a
printed Burmese copy I have which is practically identical to the CSCD
version.

As far as I can tell, there are very few old Pali grammars printed in
Roman characters. One of them, of course, is H. Smith's edition of the
Saddaniiti now available from the Pali Text Society after being out of
print for some time. I understand that O. Pind is preparing a new
edition of Kaccayana's grammar and there is E. Senart's 1871 edition
of this text. I only have 4 complete printed Pali grammars in my
collection and wish I had many more but it is not easy to find exactly
where one can buy such books. I have been making some enquiries about
where to buy them in India and Sri Lanka and will let you know if I
get lucky. I think the best places to look are in India, Burma, Sri
Lanka, and Thailand. I'm sure their texts won't be in Roman letters
but I'm willing to learn new scripts if necessary as I already can
read Pali in the Devanagari and Burmese scripts.

A future project could be to compile a comprehensive list of these old
Pali grammars and other related linguistic treatises with detailed
information about their contents, relationship to other texts,
printing history, availability, and so on. The CSCD has 20 of these
texts and the Critical Pali Dictionary has quite a long list of them
in its bibliography.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> I'm glad to hear from you again. And it's good to resume Kaccayana's
> grammar. If it is possible, when you have the time, would you tell
us
> more in general the "different" ancient grammars that is available,
and
> where copies of them can be found. Many thanks.
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
 
 
704
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2004 11:11pm
Subject: Re: update

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Yong Peng,
> 
> Thanks for responding! The three most important Pali grammars to keep
> in mind are: Kaccaayanavyaakara.na (the earliest one), Saddaniiti, &
> Moggallaanavyaakara.na. Except for the third volume (suttamaala) of
> the Saddaniiti, all are available on the CSCD disk or from
> tipitaka.org. The first and last can also be found in the grammar.zip
> file from SLTP. Two of the three Kaccaayanavyaakara.na texts I'm using
> for our study are from these two sources while the remaining one is a
> printed Burmese copy I have which is practically identical to the CSCD
> version.
> 
> As far as I can tell, there are very few old Pali grammars printed in
> Roman characters. One of them, of course, is H. Smith's edition of the
> Saddaniiti now available from the Pali Text Society after being out of
> print for some time. I understand that O. Pind is preparing a new
> edition of Kaccayana's grammar and there is E. Senart's 1871 edition
> of this text. I only have 4 complete printed Pali grammars in my
> collection and wish I had many more but it is not easy to find exactly
> where one can buy such books. I have been making some enquiries about
> where to buy them in India and Sri Lanka and will let you know if I
> get lucky. I think the best places to look are in India, Burma, Sri
> Lanka, and Thailand. I'm sure their texts won't be in Roman letters
> but I'm willing to learn new scripts if necessary as I already can
> read Pali in the Devanagari and Burmese scripts.
> 
> A future project could be to compile a comprehensive list of these old
> Pali grammars and other related linguistic treatises with detailed
> information about their contents, relationship to other texts,
> printing history, availability, and so on. The CSCD has 20 of these
> texts and the Critical Pali Dictionary has quite a long list of them
> in its bibliography.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> > Dear Jim,
> >
> > I'm glad to hear from you again. And it's good to resume Kaccayana's
> > grammar. If it is possible, when you have the time, would you tell
> us
> > more in general the "different" ancient grammars that is available,
> and
> > where copies of them can be found. Many thanks.
> >
> > metta,
> > Yong Peng.


Dear Jim and Yong Peng,

I'm very happy to hear that we will be studying more Paali, I really
look forward to the continuation of grammar lessons. 

I would like to consult you and the list on another small matter as
well: Lately some friends and I have been doing some translations and
came across the word 'kulaputta' which has been translated as
'clansman', which we thought was a bit too wide, closer perhaps to the
word 'gotara'. I know the closest ot 'kula' would be 'family', which
would make 'kulaputta' something like 'son of a [good] family', which
we have been using so far. Perhaps the meaning is more like
'gentleman', for example. Some of us are leaning towards 'man of
lineage' as best choice of the possibilities, at the moment; could you
please give us your opinion? 

Or perhaps we should discuss this on your other list?

Thank you very much in advance,

Amara
 
 
705
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 0:22am
Subject: Re: update

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much. More than once on Pali yahoo list people asked for a
Pali Pali dictionary. Could you announce your ca.geocities.com/palistudy to
this list?
Looking forward,
Nina. 
op 07-01-2004 19:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

So any question relating to Pali is welcome.
 
 
706
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: kulaputta

 
    Dear Amara,
good to see you here.
op 09-01-2004 05:11 schreef Amara op joychay@hotmail.com:

> I would like to consult you and the list on another small matter as
> well: Lately some friends and I have been doing some translations and
> came across the word 'kulaputta' which has been translated as
> 'clansman', which we thought was a bit too wide, closer perhaps to the
> word 'gotara'. I know the closest ot 'kula' would be 'family', which
> would make 'kulaputta' something like 'son of a [good] family', which
> we have been using so far. Perhaps the meaning is more like
> 'gentleman', for example. Some of us are leaning towards 'man of
> lineage' as best choice of the possibilities, at the moment; could you
> please give us your opinion?
N: I came accross it when translating from Thai parts of the Co. to the
Dhatuvibhangasutta, M III, no 140, Pukkussati who had gone forth and was in
the Potter's shed. He is referred to as kulaputta, the young man of noble
family. I was surprised and asked Kom. Kom said, monks can be referred to as
such. In that way we can take this, depending on the context, in a higher
sense: belonging to the family of the noble ones, of the Sangha.
Nina.
 
 
707
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 1:42pm
Subject: Re: update

 
    Dear Jim,
thank you. How shall we get this info to Pali yahoo list?
I could not find in the PTS catalogue: H. Smith's edition of the
Saddaniiti 
Nina. 
op 09-01-2004 01:08 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Dear Yong Peng,
> 
> Thanks for responding! The three most important Pali grammars to keep
> in mind are: Kaccaayanavyaakara.na (the earliest one), Saddaniiti, &
> Moggallaanavyaakara.na. Except for the third volume (suttamaala) of
> the Saddaniiti, all are available on the CSCD disk or from
> tipitaka.org. The first and last can also be found in the grammar.zip
> file from SLTP. Two of the three Kaccaayanavyaakara.na texts I'm using
> for our study are from these two sources while the remaining one is a
> printed Burmese copy I have which is practically identical to the CSCD
> version.
> 
> As far as I can tell, there are very few old Pali grammars printed in
> Roman characters. One of them, of course, is H. Smith's edition of the
> Saddaniiti now available from the Pali Text Society after being out of
> print for some time. I understand that O. Pind is preparing a new
> edition of Kaccayana's grammar and there is E. Senart's 1871 edition
> of this text. I only have 4 complete printed Pali grammars in my
> collection and wish I had many more but it is not easy to find exactly
> where one can buy such books. I have been making some enquiries about
> where to buy them in India and Sri Lanka and will let you know if I
> get lucky. I think the best places to look are in India, Burma, Sri
> Lanka, and Thailand. I'm sure their texts won't be in Roman letters
> but I'm willing to learn new scripts if necessary as I already can
> read Pali in the Devanagari and Burmese scripts.
> 
> A future project could be to compile a comprehensive list of these old
> Pali grammars and other related linguistic treatises with detailed
> information about their contents, relationship to other texts,
> printing history, availability, and so on. The CSCD has 20 of these
> texts and the Critical Pali Dictionary has quite a long list of them
> in its bibliography.
> 
>
 
 
708
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 5:46pm
Subject: Re: update (dictionary)

 
    Dear Nina,

Thanks for bringing it up. I think this Pali-Pali dictionary thing
first came up in a message by Suan to DSG which you then forwared to
the Pali group. Steve enquired about such a dictionary to which Suan
replied citing the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (abbr. Abh) which is about as
close as you'll come to one, I think. The CPD only mentions this work
plus the Ekakkharakosa which may just be a very small dictionary of
one-syllable words. There are also other related works such as the
.tiikaa-s that accompany these, and there is the Suuci that Teng Kee
has mentioned here before.

The Abh which is composed of 1203 verses is not like a dictionary in
the way we normally think of one as having an alphabetical arrangement
of words and their definitions. Perhaps later on we could take a close
look at how Abh is structured and how to make good use of it. We could
also input some ideas on what we would like to see in a more
conventional Pali-Pali dictionary and perhaps try our hand at
producing some sample entries.

On your last point, I'd first have to make the geocities webpage
presentable before I'd be ready to announce it to the Pali group and
the rest of cyberworld. This could take awhile as there is much else
for me to attend to the moment but will work on it when I find the
time. Right now, the page only has a listing of two downloadable files
(MN 10 and its comy) which I will be taking down.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
> Thank you very much. More than once on Pali yahoo list people asked
for a
> Pali Pali dictionary. Could you announce your
ca.geocities.com/palistudy to
> this list?
> Looking forward,
> Nina.
> op 07-01-2004 19:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
>
> So any question relating to Pali is welcome.
 
 
709
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 6:06pm
Subject: Re: update (Saddaniiti)

 
    Dear Nina,

Yor will find the Saddaniiti listed inside the back cover (Recent
Publications) of the PTS 2002 List of Issues. This information has
already been posted to the Pali group by Rene Salm. See my msg no.
2590, May 10, 2003 which I reproduce below for a review of the work.
Please note that Teng Kee criticized the remarks I made in the last
paragraph. I think you may have been away at the time.

Jim

> Dear Jim,
> thank you. How shall we get this info to Pali yahoo list?
> I could not find in the PTS catalogue: H. Smith's edition of the
> Saddaniiti
> Nina.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] PTS; Ven. N. (Saddaniiti)


> Dear Rene,
>
> I was away when you sent the following message on Mar. 27. I'm just
> now catching up with it.
>
> > Dear Pali friends--
> >
> > I was recently looking at the most recent list of issues of the
Pali
> > Text Society and am curious about a number of them. Does anyone
own
> any
> > of the following, or have information about them?
> >
> > -- The Saddaniiti (5 vols.) The description says: "The greatest of
> the
> > extant Pali grammars, written by Aggavamsa of Arimaddana in Burma
in
> > A.D. 1154." I am curious about this work, as I understand it looks
> > at Pali from the point of view of the roots, which is my preferred
> way
> > of studying the language.
>
> It is fortunate that this work has recently been reprinted. I
acquired
> it with some difficulty in 1982-3 as the first two volumes were out
of
> print at the time. I had to photocopy these in the library of the
> University of Toronto. I found one volume in a second-hand bookstore
> and ordered the remaining ones from Munksgaard. After making good
use
> of these volumes for many years I can say that they are definitely
> well worth having. Here is some information to give you an idea as
to
> what these volumes contain:
>
> The title of the work is: Saddaniiti -- La Grammaire Palie
> d'Aggava.msa. ed. by Helmer Smith.
>
> The Pali text itself takes up the first 3 volumes as follows:
>
> 1. Padamaalaa. This one starts with the first verbal root
(dhaatu) --
> bhuu sattaaya.m, which is explained in great detail giving nearly
all
> the words derived from it and providing complete conjugational and
> declensional paradigms. It also covers other kinds of words like
> pronouns and numerals.
> 2. Dhaatumaalaa. This covers roots no. 2 to 1687 in eight classes
> (ga.na-s)
> 3. Suttamaalaa. This contains 1347 suttas in seven chapters in an
> arrangement much like those found in the grammars of Kaccaayana and
> Moggallaana. The 8th chapter treats word classes, and has some
useful
> material on prefixes (upasagga-s) and indeclinables (nipaata-s). The
> 9th chapter deals with textual matters eg. it starts off by
> classifying texts into paa.li, a.t.thakathaa, .tiikaa, and
> pakara.na.m.
>
> The next two volumes are appendices containing tables and indices.
>
> 4. Tables (first part). Contains all sorts of listings such as an
> alphabetical list of roots with page references and with
> correspondences to the roots of Panini's Dhaatupaa.tha (class and
root
> nos. only). There is also a listing of affixes and augments and a
> summary of the grammatical system which is written in French with
> translations of the Pali grammatical terms.
>
> 5. Tables (second part -- actually this takes up 2 volumes).
Contains
> an alphabetical index of words found in the Saddaniiti. Altogether,
> the five volumes take up 1795 pp.
>
> A different version of the Padamaala and the Dhaatumaala are
available
> online at tipitaka.org and on the CSCD which apparently do not have
> the Suttamaalaa. There is a very good article on the Saddaniiti in
> JPTS XVII, pp. 1-212 'Exploring the Saddaniiti', by E.G. Kahrs. It's
a
> critical study and translation of the kaaraka suttas (547-573) in
the
> Suttamaalaa.
>
> If one can't find all the information one seeks concerning the Pali
> language in modern European-style grammars and primers, I think it
> then becomes necessary to turn to the long-standing tradition of
> grammatical texts written in Pali and going back many centuries. But
> these grammars can also be incomplete in some respects and one may
> then have to turn to native Sanskrit grammars to supplement one's
Pali
> studies. It may even become desirable to study Panini (as I do) in
> order to understand the often cryptic grammatical suttas and to find
> more detailed explanations about affixes, etc. and how words are
> formed.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jim
>
 
 
710
From: Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:39pm
Subject: Re: update

 
    Dear Jim,

thanks for the info. I did not realise so much good stuff is on the
CSCD. It's a treasure house.

As for the files from SLTP, many of them are so large in size that they
actually jeopardise my PC performancc.

metta,
Yong Peng.

--- Jim Anderson wrote:
Thanks for responding! The three most important Pali grammars to keep
in mind are: Kaccaayanavyaakara.na (the earliest one), Saddaniiti, &
Moggallaanavyaakara.na. Except for the third volume (suttamaala) of the
Saddaniiti, all are available on the CSCD disk or from tipitaka.org.
The first and last can also be found in the grammar.zip file from SLTP.
Two of the three Kaccaayanavyaakara.na texts I'm using for our study
are from these two sources while the remaining one is a printed Burmese
copy I have which is practically identical to the CSCD version.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
 
 
711
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 10:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: update

 
    Dear Amara,

> Dear Jim and Yong Peng,
>
> I'm very happy to hear that we will be studying more Paali, I really
> look forward to the continuation of grammar lessons.
>
> I would like to consult you and the list on another small matter as
> well: Lately some friends and I have been doing some translations
and
> came across the word 'kulaputta' which has been translated as
> 'clansman', which we thought was a bit too wide, closer perhaps to
the
> word 'gotara'.

I think it would help if you give a reference to where in the texts
you came across this word 'kulaputta' or any other word you wish to
bring up in the future. The word 'gotara' is unfamiliar to me and
there is no listing of it in PED as far as I can see. Perhaps you
meant 'gotta'?

I know the closest ot 'kula' would be 'family', which
> would make 'kulaputta' something like 'son of a [good] family',
which
> we have been using so far. Perhaps the meaning is more like
> 'gentleman', for example. Some of us are leaning towards 'man of
> lineage' as best choice of the possibilities, at the moment; could
you
> please give us your opinion?

The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it has
several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the rapid
disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..." which
IB Horner translates as: "those last disciples of various names, of
various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from
various families, ..." and the commentary (Sp I 187) on this explains
'various names' as Buddharakkhito, Dhammarakkhito, etc., 'various
clans' as Gotamo, Moggallaano, etc., 'various social strata' as noble,
brahmin, etc. (which seems to be referring to the va.n.na classes),
and 'various families' such as a noble family, etc. or a high, low, or
illustrious familiy, or a family of great wealth, and so on. Perhaps
this might help a little. I'm sure one could spend a whole day digging
up quite a bit more. My preference is for 'son of a good family', but
a lot depends on how familiar one is with the Pali term and I have to
admit I'm not all that familiar with it so far. I tend to be uncertain
about the best choice of a word for a translation and I usually end up
just going along with the more widely accepted ones unless I have a
good reason to disagree. I would then state my case in a footnote.

> Or perhaps we should discuss this on your other list?

You're welcome to raise such questions here every now and again but
not so often as to cause long delays in the study of Kaccayana's
grammar as there's only so much I can do at any one time. However,
others are welcome to jump in and discuss with you any topic relating
to Pali without me necessarily getting involved.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
712
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 11:04pm
Subject: Re: kulaputta

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> good to see you here.
> op 09-01-2004 05:11 schreef Amara op joychay@h...:
> 
> > I would like to consult you and the list on another small matter as
> > well: Lately some friends and I have been doing some translations and
> > came across the word 'kulaputta' which has been translated as
> > 'clansman', which we thought was a bit too wide, closer perhaps to the
> > word 'gotara'. I know the closest ot 'kula' would be 'family', which
> > would make 'kulaputta' something like 'son of a [good] family', which
> > we have been using so far. Perhaps the meaning is more like
> > 'gentleman', for example. Some of us are leaning towards 'man of
> > lineage' as best choice of the possibilities, at the moment; could you
> > please give us your opinion?
> N: I came accross it when translating from Thai parts of the Co. to the
> Dhatuvibhangasutta, M III, no 140, Pukkussati who had gone forth and
was in
> the Potter's shed. He is referred to as kulaputta, the young man of
noble
> family. I was surprised and asked Kom. Kom said, monks can be
referred to as
> such. In that way we can take this, depending on the context, in a
higher
> sense: belonging to the family of the noble ones, of the Sangha.
> Nina.


Dear Nina,

Thank you for this elegant explanation of 'kulaputta', which makes me
think of how ordination is sometimes compared to leaving one's birth
family to be reborn in the sasana. It also reminds me that the Buddha
called a number of the arahants his children. More in detail, in the
magga vithi vara there is the citta called 'change of lineage' or
something to that effect, if I remember correctly. Which makes me
prefer 'lineage' for the possible translation of this word. 'Son of
the ariyans' is very tempting as alternative, but a bit too narrow, I
think, since very often kulaputta is applied to unordained people,
such as Yasa before he entered the order. Ariyans can also seem too
wide if you think of the entire Indian nation. Again, the closest may
be 'son of a [good] family'. For comparison, the thais have a phrase,
'mii sahgoun [roun chaahd]': the first half meaning of 'belonging to a
family' as well, but the connotation is very possitive, more precisely
a 'good' family, in other words 'well bred'. 

I really appreciate your help, anumodana also with your studies and
teachings, in fact with all your great kusala, as always,

Amara
 
 
713
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2004 11:45pm
Subject: Re: update

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> > Dear Jim and Yong Peng,
> >
> > I'm very happy to hear that we will be studying more Paali, I really
> > look forward to the continuation of grammar lessons.
> >
> > I would like to consult you and the list on another small matter as
> > well: Lately some friends and I have been doing some translations
> and
> > came across the word 'kulaputta' which has been translated as
> > 'clansman', which we thought was a bit too wide, closer perhaps to
> the
> > word 'gotara'.
> 
> I think it would help if you give a reference to where in the texts
> you came across this word 'kulaputta' or any other word you wish to
> bring up in the future. The word 'gotara' is unfamiliar to me and
> there is no listing of it in PED as far as I can see. Perhaps you
> meant 'gotta'?
> 

Hi,

As I mentioned to Nina, Yasa before his ordination was called 'Yasa
kulaputta' in the Thai Tipitaka. I believe 'kulaputta' occurs in the
ancient texts a lot, including this passage from the Visuddhimagga, in
the section on siilas:

Iti aya.m pa~ncavidhopi sa.mvaro, yaa ca paapabhiirukaana.m
kulaputtaana.m sampattavatthuto virati, sabbampeta.m sa.mvarasiilanti
veditabba.m. 

As to the 'gotara', I'm sorry for the extra a, it should be gotra as
in 'gotrabhuu'. But you are right, in the text there was also 'gotta
' I think, in another form:

Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. [the Visuddhimagga, introduction]


> I know the closest ot 'kula' would be 'family', which
> > would make 'kulaputta' something like 'son of a [good] family',
> which
> > we have been using so far. Perhaps the meaning is more like
> > 'gentleman', for example. Some of us are leaning towards 'man of
> > lineage' as best choice of the possibilities, at the moment; could
> you
> > please give us your opinion?
> 
> The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
> unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it has
> several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the rapid
> disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
> naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..." which
> IB Horner translates as: "those last disciples of various names, of
> various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from
> various families, ..." and the commentary (Sp I 187) on this explains
> 'various names' as Buddharakkhito, Dhammarakkhito, etc., 'various
> clans' as Gotamo, Moggallaano, etc., 'various social strata' as noble,
> brahmin, etc. (which seems to be referring to the va.n.na classes),
> and 'various families' such as a noble family, etc. or a high, low, or
> illustrious familiy, or a family of great wealth, and so on. Perhaps
> this might help a little. I'm sure one could spend a whole day digging
> up quite a bit more. My preference is for 'son of a good family', but
> a lot depends on how familiar one is with the Pali term and I have to
> admit I'm not all that familiar with it so far. I tend to be uncertain
> about the best choice of a word for a translation and I usually end up
> just going along with the more widely accepted ones unless I have a
> good reason to disagree. I would then state my case in a footnote.
> 

In the translation we did we usually try to pick the one closest to
what we think is meant by the text, perhaps because we are not
familiar with too many English translations of the ancient texts, but
mainly use the Thai and Paali ones. 


> > Or perhaps we should discuss this on your other list?
> 
> You're welcome to raise such questions here every now and again but
> not so often as to cause long delays in the study of Kaccayana's
> grammar as there's only so much I can do at any one time. However,
> others are welcome to jump in and discuss with you any topic relating
> to Pali without me necessarily getting involved.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim

I wouldn't want to cause any undue delay, thank you very much for your
detailed explanations, above, and looking forward to more Kaccayana, 

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
714
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: update (kulaputta)

 
    Dear Amara,

> Hi,
>
> As I mentioned to Nina, Yasa before his ordination was called 'Yasa
> kulaputta' in the Thai Tipitaka. I believe 'kulaputta' occurs in
the
> ancient texts a lot, including this passage from the Visuddhimagga,
in
> the section on siilas:
>
> Iti aya.m pa~ncavidhopi sa.mvaro, yaa ca paapabhiirukaana.m
> kulaputtaana.m sampattavatthuto virati, sabbampeta.m
sa.mvarasiilanti
> veditabba.m.

It's true that 'kulaputta' occurs many times (in the hundreds) in the
Tipitaka. Unlike ~Naa.namoli's 'clansmen', P.M. Tin translates
'kulaputtaana.m' here as 'noble youths' on p. 9.

> As to the 'gotara', I'm sorry for the extra a, it should be gotra as
> in 'gotrabhuu'. But you are right, in the text there was also
'gotta
> ' I think, in another form:
>
> Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. [the Visuddhimagga,
introduction]

I agree that gotta and gotra are just different forms of the same word
and both are derived from the root 'gup' -- to protect. I think it
would be better still, when quoting, to be more exact in the
references whenever possible. As an example (your first quote): Vis.
I.18. It makes it easier for others to check out the sources and saves
time too!

> > The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
> > unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it
has
> > several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the
rapid
> > disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
> > naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..."

A correction I'd like to make here: the 'naana-' in the four words
above should read 'naanaa-'.

> In the translation we did we usually try to pick the one closest to
> what we think is meant by the text, perhaps because we are not
> familiar with too many English translations of the ancient texts,
but
> mainly use the Thai and Paali ones.

I found a useful remark in a number of commentaries on 'kulaputta'
that speak of two kinds:
1) jaatikulaputta -- a gentleman by birth
2) aacaarakulaputta -- a gentleman by virtue of uprightness (this one
is in the exact words of the CPD)

eg. kulaputtoti jaatikulaputtopi aacaarakulaputtopi. -- Ps V 33

A Mahaa.tiikaa comment on another 'kulaputto' at Vis. I.43 reads:
aacaarakulaputto vaa hi pa.tipajjitu.m sakkoti jaatikulaputto vaa. So
again both kinds of kulaputtas apply here as well. There are also a
number of remarks in several commentaries where only one of the two
applies (not both).


> I wouldn't want to cause any undue delay, thank you very much for
your
> detailed explanations, above, and looking forward to more Kaccayana,

I don't wish to discourage you from posting further questions and
comments on this account. I guess I just wasn't ready to take on
something like this so soon before I even got started on Kaccayana. A
good solution might be to first treat a word posted here from the
linguistic perspective of the old Pali grammarians. The study of
single words is an important one that interest me very much and I
wouldn't mind studying the derivations of 'kulaputta', 'gotta', and
'gotra'. I came across a very interesting sutta in Kaccayana (Kc 658)
that deals with the 'tta' and 'tra' kit affixes of these and many
other words and even explains the basic meaning of the words which is
especially valuable. We could also investigate the roots: kul, puu,
and gup. The root of putta is 'puu' to cleanse which is also,
interestingly, the root of pu~n~na. I think this approach will take us
right to the core of the matter and provide a good foundation for the
study of Pali words.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
715
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:43pm
Subject: Re: update (kulaputta)

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > As I mentioned to Nina, Yasa before his ordination was called 'Yasa
> > kulaputta' in the Thai Tipitaka. I believe 'kulaputta' occurs in
> the
> > ancient texts a lot, including this passage from the Visuddhimagga,
> in
> > the section on siilas:
> >
> > Iti aya.m pa~ncavidhopi sa.mvaro, yaa ca paapabhiirukaana.m
> > kulaputtaana.m sampattavatthuto virati, sabbampeta.m
> sa.mvarasiilanti
> > veditabba.m.
> 
> It's true that 'kulaputta' occurs many times (in the hundreds) in the
> Tipitaka. Unlike ~Naa.namoli's 'clansmen', P.M. Tin translates
> 'kulaputtaana.m' here as 'noble youths' on p. 9.
> 
> > As to the 'gotara', I'm sorry for the extra a, it should be gotra as
> > in 'gotrabhuu'. But you are right, in the text there was also
> 'gotta
> > ' I think, in another form:
> >
> > Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. [the Visuddhimagga,
> introduction]
> 
> I agree that gotta and gotra are just different forms of the same word
> and both are derived from the root 'gup' -- to protect. I think it
> would be better still, when quoting, to be more exact in the
> references whenever possible. As an example (your first quote): Vis.
> I.18. It makes it easier for others to check out the sources and saves
> time too!
> 
> > > The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
> > > unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it
> has
> > > several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the
> rapid
> > > disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
> > > naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..."
> 
> A correction I'd like to make here: the 'naana-' in the four words
> above should read 'naanaa-'.
> 
> > In the translation we did we usually try to pick the one closest to
> > what we think is meant by the text, perhaps because we are not
> > familiar with too many English translations of the ancient texts,
> but
> > mainly use the Thai and Paali ones.
> 
> I found a useful remark in a number of commentaries on 'kulaputta'
> that speak of two kinds:
> 1) jaatikulaputta -- a gentleman by birth
> 2) aacaarakulaputta -- a gentleman by virtue of uprightness (this one
> is in the exact words of the CPD)
> 
> eg. kulaputtoti jaatikulaputtopi aacaarakulaputtopi. -- Ps V 33
> 
> A Mahaa.tiikaa comment on another 'kulaputto' at Vis. I.43 reads:
> aacaarakulaputto vaa hi pa.tipajjitu.m sakkoti jaatikulaputto vaa. So
> again both kinds of kulaputtas apply here as well. There are also a
> number of remarks in several commentaries where only one of the two
> applies (not both).
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't want to cause any undue delay, thank you very much for
> your
> > detailed explanations, above, and looking forward to more Kaccayana,
> 
> I don't wish to discourage you from posting further questions and
> comments on this account. I guess I just wasn't ready to take on
> something like this so soon before I even got started on Kaccayana. A
> good solution might be to first treat a word posted here from the
> linguistic perspective of the old Pali grammarians. The study of
> single words is an important one that interest me very much and I
> wouldn't mind studying the derivations of 'kulaputta', 'gotta', and
> 'gotra'. I came across a very interesting sutta in Kaccayana (Kc 658)
> that deals with the 'tta' and 'tra' kit affixes of these and many
> other words and even explains the basic meaning of the words which is
> especially valuable. We could also investigate the roots: kul, puu,
> and gup. The root of putta is 'puu' to cleanse which is also,
> interestingly, the root of pu~n~na. I think this approach will take us
> right to the core of the matter and provide a good foundation for the
> study of Pali words.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you for this, 

I am glad that the Kaccayana includes the study of vocabulary and
their roots, and am willing to wait for us to get to that. In fact
what I really lack personally is mainly grammatical knowledge, for
example declensions do not exist in the Thai language, which was my
main problem when studying French when I was young. I would be much
more interested in going through the Kaccayana in the proper order as
you had begun earlier, thank you very much in advance,

Amara
 
 
716
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Jan 11, 2004 0:25am
Subject: Re: update (Saddaniiti)

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you for the info, and I print out your old post about it. I was first
confronted with the Saddaniiti when trying to translate Meanings of Dhamma,
and I liked it very much. I am hesitant to order the volumes, as I am not
sure I will get drowned in them.
Nina. 
op 10-01-2004 00:06 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Yor will find the Saddaniiti listed inside the back cover (Recent
> Publications) of the PTS 2002 List of Issues.
 
 
717
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 14, 2004 10:57pm
Subject: another update

 
    Dear members,

As some of you will know, I posted a response to the Pali list
yesterday that included information about our group and how to join.
The response has been a little overwhelming but so far so good. We now
have seven new members and I welcome everyone of you who have just
joined. I wasn't quite prepared for this and I ask for your patience
as it will take time for things to get back to normal again.

I hope to resume our study of Kaccayana as soon as I have Kc 2 ready
for posting. This study will likely progress at a very slow pace.
Questions and comments about other Pali matters besides Kaccayana's
grammar are always welcome here at any time.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
718
From: Everett Thiele <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:45pm
Subject: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Hi Jim!

Has the yahoo account rett_thiele been signed up? The site still 
won't let me in.

best

/Rett
 
 
719
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:21pm
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Dear members,

Rett mistakenly sent this message to the list instead of just to me.
This made me realize the potential for this to happen when you have
two similar looking email addresses along with the automatic address
fill-in of software programming. In order to avoid this confusion when
writing an offlist message to me, you could just use my usual email
address: jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca instead of palistudy@yahoo.ca .
Either address is ok with me but be careful with the second one. On
another note, you cannot access the palistudy Yahoogroups home page
unless you sign in with a Yahoo ID which you can get for free. I
encourage you all to have the access so you can read old messages in
the archives and be able to download grammatical files as they become
available in the future.

I think that before I continue with Kc 2, I should first prepare a
palistudy edition of the first ka.n.da of 11 suttas and commentary
along with the two introductory verses for you to have on hand when
following our study. In my approach, I think it is very important to
have the best text possible in terms of quality and reliability. I
have a printed Burmese copy and 2 etext versions to work with but this
is really not enough. If any of you have a different printed copy, it
would be much appreciated if you could check it against what I submit
to this group for careful study. Rett and I were discussing Senart's
ed. of Kaccayana and how hard it is to get access to. Rett said there
was a copy at Uppsala University and I discovered that U of Toronto
has an 1871 copy which I'm thinking of checking out this summer.
Here's some information about the book:

Personal Author Kaccaayana.
Title Kaccaayana et la littrature grammaticale du paali. Ire partie.
Grammaire paalie de Kaccaayana: suuras et commentaire, publis avec
une traduction et des notes par M.E. Senart.
Publication info Paris Impr. nationale 1871
Physical descrip 338p.
Subject Pali language--Grammar.
Added author Senart, E. (Emile), 1847-1928.

I wonder if there is even another one like it in Roman script. I
understand that O. Pind is currently preparing a new edition which I'm
looking very forward to. I'm quite interested in buying traditional
Pali grammatical and related treatises in print and available for
mail-order purchase. If any of you can help me find where I can buy
such books in any script, that would be truly wonderful! Perhaps those
of you who live in Thailand may be able to help in this regard. I also
happen to think that having this know-how will be beneficial should
any of you become as interested as I am in getting a hold of these
rare birds.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi Jim!
>
> Has the yahoo account rett_thiele been signed up? The site still
> won't let me in.
>
> best
>
> /Rett
 
 
720
From: Everett Thiele <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:42am
Subject: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Everyone,

Sorry for yesterday's administrative message which went out to the 
list. I'm a new member, having joined just over the last few days, 
and am looking forward to joining you all in working through these 
texts which Jim has been studying.

I came across the following reference when looking for editions of 
Kc, but I don't know more about it than what's below. I'm trying to 
get a hold of a library copy, but I thought the reference might be of 
interest right away. If anyone has seen a review of it I'd be 
interested in hearing about it.

best regards

/Rett



Author:Kaccayana

Title: Bhadanta Acarya Kaccayana Mahathera's Kaccaayana vyakarana / 
critically ed., transl. and annot. with notes & indices by Lakshmi 
Narayan Tiwari and Birbal Sharma

Edition: 1. ed.

Location/publisher: Varanasi : Tara publications

Date of publication: 1962

Length: 454 s.

Additional titlel: Kaccayana vyakarana : Pali grammar
 
 
721
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Rett,
Thanks, taken note. In Oct I will be in Varanasi. Interesting!
Nina. 
op 16-01-2004 08:42 schreef Everett Thiele op rett@telia.com:
> I came across the following reference when looking for editions of
> Kc, but I don't know more about it than what's below.
> Title: Bhadanta Acarya Kaccayana Mahathera's Kaccaayana vyakarana /
> critically ed., transl. and annot. with notes & indices by Lakshmi
> Narayan Tiwari and Birbal Sharma
> 
> Location/publisher: Varanasi : Tara publications
> 
> Date of publication: 1962
> 
> Length: 454 s.
> 
> Additional titlel: Kaccayana vyakarana : Pali grammar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> palistudy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>
 
 
722
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:40pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Rett,

Thanks for the book info. I checked the U of Toronto catalogue and
they have it as well. In 1983 I photocopied Kaccayana's Sandhikappa
from an Indian edition in the same library but I don't have the title
page or the name of the author who edited it. I have a strong feeling
that it's from the same book as the only other edition listed in the
library is Senart's. I had a look at my photocopy which goes from
pages 3 to 39 (unfortunately I'm missing pages 10 & 11). It's in the
Devanagari script (can you read this script?) and has the Pali text
with a non-English translation (likely Hindi). I was delighted to find
an excerpt from the Pali commentary (Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa) on the two
introductory verses which had given me a lot trouble in trying to
understand and translate. Now that I have this excerpt, I should
probably go back and try again. I'll transcribe and post this
page-long Pali cty in the near future. This photocopy is coming in
handy as it can serve as a 4th version for me to work with.

Also in the U of T collection are two other more recent publications
on Kaccayana from India. They are Bhikkhu Sakyapaala's ed. of
Vimalabuddhi's Kaccaayana-nyaasa and Tiwari's ed. of Mahaavijitaavi's
Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa (priced at 80 ruupees). Both volumes are
commentaries and were published in 1992 so there's a good chance they
are still available for purchase. I would like to try and get them.

In JPTS 1882 there is a catalogue of Mss. in the India Office Library
prepared by H. Oldenberg which has a lot of grammatical treatises
listed as well as sample extracts from them. That'll certainly be
another project for me in transcribing some of it for this group.

Best wishes,
Jim

> I came across the following reference when looking for editions of
> Kc, but I don't know more about it than what's below. I'm trying to
> get a hold of a library copy, but I thought the reference might be
of
> interest right away. If anyone has seen a review of it I'd be
> interested in hearing about it.
>
> best regards
>
> /Rett
>
>
>
> Author:Kaccayana
>
> Title: Bhadanta Acarya Kaccayana Mahathera's Kaccaayana vyakarana /
> critically ed., transl. and annot. with notes & indices by Lakshmi
> Narayan Tiwari and Birbal Sharma
>
> Edition: 1. ed.
>
> Location/publisher: Varanasi : Tara publications
>
> Date of publication: 1962
>
> Length: 454 s.
>
> Additional titlel: Kaccayana vyakarana : Pali grammar
 
 
723
From: Everett Thiele <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:22am
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Jim,

Thanks for describing the Varanasi edition. When I saw that it 
included a translation my hopes soared, but if it's in Hindi then 
that won't be much help to me. Does anyone on the group read Hindi? 
Still, as you mention, it is always helpful to have multiple editions 
of the text proper. Yes, I do read Devanagari script. I've ordered 
the book by interlibrary loan, but Uppsala is notoriously slow in 
responding. I expect to see it in perhaps 3 weeks. Maybe it can be of 
help if we suspect the text is corrupt as some part.

regards,

/Rett
 
 
724
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:02am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    > I wonder if there is even another one like it in Roman script. I
> understand that O. Pind is currently preparing a new edition which I'm
> looking very forward to. I'm quite interested in buying traditional
> Pali grammatical and related treatises in print and available for
> mail-order purchase. If any of you can help me find where I can buy
> such books in any script, that would be truly wonderful! Perhaps those
> of you who live in Thailand may be able to help in this regard. I also
> happen to think that having this know-how will be beneficial should
> any of you become as interested as I am in getting a hold of these
> rare birds.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 


Hi, Jim,

I asked a friend who has studied Paali most of his life about
traditional Pali grammar books today, he said that Paali in Thailand
is studied in the Thai script, since most men become ordained at least
once in their lifetime, traditionally, for over two thousand years
now. The first time when Buddhism was introduced was at Nakorn
Pathom, where the innermost chedi had a short stone inscriptions
beginnig with 'ye dhamma' with a mixture of what is locally called
'Kruen' alphabets very much like those of the Asoke pilars in india,
with one letter that was the local addition to the Indian writting,
which still exist in the Thai alphabets today. [If you wish to see
the inscription I could scan the pictures with the transcribed version
as well as the stone slabs which are now on display in a museum.] The
name of the city at the time was Thom Tong or Thuem Tong which means
laden with gold, which is probably why the area was called
Suvannabhumi in the Tipitaka, he said. A lot of the Sanskrit
vocabulary and spelling came later with the Khmers and was adopted
along with the Khmer language as the Thai court language, so that most
of the official or formal language was in Sanskrit, including a good
part of the translation of the Tipitaka into Thai done as recently as
a century and a half ago. All this meandering to say that the local
study of Paali is in Thai script. But if you are looking for
'traditional Pali grammarbooks in any script' then there are a number
available, [including the one Num spoke of some time ago here on this
list,] at the Mahamakut Bookstore at Wat Bavornives Vihara, which I
think you have the address of already, if not I think it is on the
internet and you might even order some by email. I can get you the
address if you wish. Do you read the Thai, though?

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
725
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:03pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Dear Jim,
Thanks. I note this, in Delhi in Oct we go to our favorite bookshop. I do
not know if I have success, but just in case, what would you like? No
trouble for us and delighted if we can find something for you. Just let me
know before Oct.
Devanagiri I cannot read, too difficult.
Nina. 
op 16-01-2004 23:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

>> Also in the U of T collection are two other more recent publications
> on Kaccayana from India. They are Bhikkhu Sakyapaala's ed. of
> Vimalabuddhi's Kaccaayana-nyaasa and Tiwari's ed. of Mahaavijitaavi's
> Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa (priced at 80 ruupees). Both volumes are
> commentaries and were published in 1992 so there's a good chance they
> are still available for purchase. I would like to try and get them.
> 
> In JPTS 1882 there is a catalogue of Mss. in the India Office Library
> prepared by H. Oldenberg which has a lot of grammatical treatises
> listed as well as sample extracts from them. That'll certainly be
> another project for me in transcribing some of it for this group.
>
 
 
726
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:05pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Rett,

> Thanks for describing the Varanasi edition. When I saw that it
> included a translation my hopes soared, but if it's in Hindi then
> that won't be much help to me. Does anyone on the group read Hindi?

As I'm not sure if it's in Hindi, I have transcribed the vutti
translation for Kc 1, see below. I also added the Pali which I checked
with my 4 versions. Interestingly, only the Indian version has the
'sati'. I think Sukin, one of our silent members, can speak Hindi.

> Still, as you mention, it is always helpful to have multiple
editions
> of the text proper. Yes, I do read Devanagari script. I've ordered
> the book by interlibrary loan, but Uppsala is notoriously slow in
> responding. I expect to see it in perhaps 3 weeks. Maybe it can be
of
> help if we suspect the text is corrupt as some part.

It's great that you will have access to Senart's edition and I'm sure
it will be of some help. It appears that it also includes a French
translation (une traduction). Can you read French? I know Amara can.
How long do you get to keep the book before you have to return it? Are
you still going to photocopy it?

Here's the passage with the Hindi (?) translation:

1, 1. attho akkharasa~n~naato.
sabbavacanaanamattho akkhareheva sa~n~naayate. akkharavipattiya.m hi
[1] atthassa dunnayataa [2] hoti, tasmaa akkharakosalla.m
bahuupakaara.m [3] suttantesu.
[1 i adds sati; 2 m dunnayathaa; 3 s bahupakaara.m]

1. sabhii (buddha) vacano.m kaa artha ak.saro.m se hii (ak.saro.m kii
hii sahaayataa se) avagata hotaa hai. ak.saro.m ke heraphera se artha
kaa samajhanaa ka.thina ho jaataa hai, ata.h suttanto.m me.m
(suutrapi.taka me.m) aneka prakaara kaa ak.sara-kau"salya vidyamaana
hai (aura usake j~naana ke lie vyakti ko ak.sara-kau"salya me.m dak.sa
honaa caarhie).

I don't see the first line of Pali in the translation.

Jim
 
 
727
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:29pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Dear Nina,

Thanks for your offer but I really don't want you to go through all
the trouble while you're on a long journey. I have successfully
ordered books from India on many occasions before through Motilal
Banarsidass and DK Agencies and there are many other Indian
booksellers who also take international book orders. I'll try through
them. Thanks again!

Jim

> Dear Jim,
> Thanks. I note this, in Delhi in Oct we go to our favorite bookshop.
I do
> not know if I have success, but just in case, what would you like?
No
> trouble for us and delighted if we can find something for you. Just
let me
> know before Oct.
> Devanagiri I cannot read, too difficult.
> Nina.
> op 16-01-2004 23:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
 
 
728
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Hi Amara,

Thank you for sharing the interesting information from your friend.
Yes, I'm interested in acquiring traditional Pali grammar books in
Thai script. I did start to learn the Thai script some years ago but
because I don't have any Pali books in this script I haven't had much
opportunity to read in it. I find that it is quite a beautiful script.
I can read Pali in Devanagari and Burmese script, so I don't think it
should be too hard to get used to reading in another.

I searched the internet for the Mahamakut Bookstore but could find no
home page nor an email address. I'd like to see their list of
traditional grammar books for sale as I think I'd want to buy most of
the titles as long as they have the full text in Pali. It's ok if the
introductory pages are in the Thai language. If I can't contact them
online, please send me their postal address and I'll write them a
letter.

There's a possibility that a Bhikkhu Pandita may be subscribing to
this list as he expressed some interest. I just have to get in touch
with him. He is currently teaching Kaccaayana to three students in
Taiwan and I think he will be helpful in our study here even though he
thinks the study of the traditional grammars is suitable only for
advanced students. Do you know if that is also the normally accepted
view in Thailand regarding the learning of Pali? If so, I might have
to shut down this list and disappear. (:

If you like, you could scan the pictures and upload them to the photo
section. I'd also be interested in seeing pictures of Thai calligraphy
of Pali words or passages.

Best wishes.
Jim

> Hi, Jim,
>
> I asked a friend who has studied Paali most of his life about
> traditional Pali grammar books today, he said that Paali in Thailand
> is studied in the Thai script, since most men become ordained at
least
> once in their lifetime, traditionally, for over two thousand years
> now. The first time when Buddhism was introduced was at Nakorn
> Pathom, where the innermost chedi had a short stone inscriptions
> beginnig with 'ye dhamma' with a mixture of what is locally called
> 'Kruen' alphabets very much like those of the Asoke pilars in india,
> with one letter that was the local addition to the Indian writting,
> which still exist in the Thai alphabets today. [If you wish to see
> the inscription I could scan the pictures with the transcribed
version
> as well as the stone slabs which are now on display in a museum.]
The
> name of the city at the time was Thom Tong or Thuem Tong which means
> laden with gold, which is probably why the area was called
> Suvannabhumi in the Tipitaka, he said. A lot of the Sanskrit
> vocabulary and spelling came later with the Khmers and was adopted
> along with the Khmer language as the Thai court language, so that
most
> of the official or formal language was in Sanskrit, including a good
> part of the translation of the Tipitaka into Thai done as recently
as
> a century and a half ago. All this meandering to say that the local
> study of Paali is in Thai script. But if you are looking for
> 'traditional Pali grammarbooks in any script' then there are a
number
> available, [including the one Num spoke of some time ago here on
this
> list,] at the Mahamakut Bookstore at Wat Bavornives Vihara, which I
> think you have the address of already, if not I think it is on the
> internet and you might even order some by email. I can get you the
> address if you wish. Do you read the Thai, though?
>
> Anumodana with your studies,
>
> Amara
 
 
729
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:03pm
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Hi Amara,
> 
> Thank you for sharing the interesting information from your friend.
> Yes, I'm interested in acquiring traditional Pali grammar books in
> Thai script. I did start to learn the Thai script some years ago but
> because I don't have any Pali books in this script I haven't had much
> opportunity to read in it. I find that it is quite a beautiful script.
> I can read Pali in Devanagari and Burmese script, so I don't think it
> should be too hard to get used to reading in another.
> 

Hi Jim,

I've asked my friend to bring you a complete list of the Pali grammar
books in the Mahamakut Bookstore, if I'm not mistaken they also have
an order form with the address. I will snailmail the list to you
unless you want me to translate it and email it to you when I get it. 


> I searched the internet for the Mahamakut Bookstore but could find no
> home page nor an email address. I'd like to see their list of
> traditional grammar books for sale as I think I'd want to buy most of
> the titles as long as they have the full text in Pali. It's ok if the
> introductory pages are in the Thai language. If I can't contact them
> online, please send me their postal address and I'll write them a
> letter.
> 

Could you please elaborate a little about 'the full text in Pali',
does this mean that the teachings/explanations in Paali and not Thai?
Or just the Paali excercise to be translated? I rather doubt the
Thais have Pali lessons explained in Paali, I have only ever heard of
Pali rapidly translated into Thai and vise versa, but not explanations
done in Pali also, at least not in conversations I have attended. 

Pali grammar books printed by the Mahamakut is mainly for bhikkhus
studying the Pali as opposed to the dhamma in Thai, they come in
several levels called 'Parien 1-9' listed in this page

http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/books/books123.html

The lower half of the page with the numbers 1-9 at the end are the
different levels and aspects of Pali required for the student to pass
the exams of each level. 

Other Pali grammar books are listed separately, and generally not
included in the website. I will send you the list or translate the
list for you if you wish, meanwhile perhaps you would like to browse
the site, which also lists some books in English, although I didn't
see the Kaccayana.


> There's a possibility that a Bhikkhu Pandita may be subscribing to
> this list as he expressed some interest. I just have to get in touch
> with him. He is currently teaching Kaccaayana to three students in
> Taiwan and I think he will be helpful in our study here even though he
> thinks the study of the traditional grammars is suitable only for
> advanced students. Do you know if that is also the normally accepted
> view in Thailand regarding the learning of Pali? If so, I might have
> to shut down this list and disappear. (:
> 

Thais have a high respect for bhikkhus and those with pariens are
supposed to be of the highest academic achievements. But few know
that the pariens mostly study the Pali and not much else, although
their memory need to be excellent in order to memorize the grammar as
well as vocabulary, in order to the translate the ancient texts into
Thai. In the old days it is even more of a precious skill since most
of the texts were accessible only to Pali literates, unlike now when
most of them have been translated, and there are so many Pali
literates among the bhikkhus and those who had spent a long time as
monks. Personally I believe that we can study the dhamma in any
languge, as long as they are correctly translated, which is why I
still value those with Pali learning very greatly, but less than I do
the dhamma as applied in daily life of course. I think the more Pali
scholars we have the more chance of having correctly translated books,
which would be invaluable, such as in the case of the Thai scholars,
these texts have been translated over and over for centuries, and when
the language had mutated, others would add their scholarship to try to
keep the meanings according to the original Pali as much as possible.
Which doesn't mean that there hasn't been any changes, but the texts
are still comprehensible to dhamma students, in spite of the extreme
difficulty of the subject matter. Of course this is just my opinion,


> If you like, you could scan the pictures and upload them to the photo
> section. I'd also be interested in seeing pictures of Thai calligraphy
> of Pali words or passages.
> 
> Best wishes.
> Jim
> 

These aren't actually Thai script, as you will see when you compare
the modern prints around the photos of the actual stone slabs. These
are what is believed to be letters the bhikkhus brought with them from
India, similar to the ones Asoka had inscribed in various places. It
is believed that one of the alphabets is the Thai addition to the
ancient scripture, but it might have been a similarity of the form and
not really of Thai origin. [Besides, I doubt if they would have added
to or subtracted from the orignal text just to show one Thai alphabet,
they would have respected to original text more than that.] 
Apparently the Thais of the area already had their written language to
which the pali was adapted/added. Which is probably why the Thai
remain more or less sparce grammar but a very rich vocabulary, which
includes many absorbed vocabulary from different languages: Pali,
Sanskrit, Khmer, etc. and currently it still grows, of course.

I have just uploaded three photos I scanned from a book published on
the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the Pra Pathom Chedi to the
photos section at 

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/lst

[Click on the images for closer look, and on 'full size' for greater
detail.]

The first is a 'transcript' from the stone, the second a carving of
the first sermon Indian style which is quite different from the Thai
images. The third is the original stone with the inscription, now
displayed at the local museum.

Enjoy,

Amara


730
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Hi Amara,

> I've asked my friend to bring you a complete list of the Pali
grammar
> books in the Mahamakut Bookstore, if I'm not mistaken they also have
> an order form with the address. I will snailmail the list to you
> unless you want me to translate it and email it to you when I get
it.

That's sounds great! Just keep the list for now when you get it. I'd
like you to look through the list to see if there are any books I'm
interested in. I'd like the Kaccayana book that Num referred to late
last spring.

> Could you please elaborate a little about 'the full text in Pali',
> does this mean that the teachings/explanations in Paali and not
Thai?
> Or just the Paali excercise to be translated? I rather doubt the
> Thais have Pali lessons explained in Paali, I have only ever heard
of
> Pali rapidly translated into Thai and vise versa, but not
explanations
> done in Pali also, at least not in conversations I have attended.

What I'm interested in are old classical Pali texts on the Pali
language like the Kaccaayanavyaakara.na. Most of them were written
many centuries ago. These kinds of texts can be seen in the
byaakara.na-gantha-sangaha section on the CSCD disk. I'm not
interested in Pali exercise books intended for Thai speakers.

> Pali grammar books printed by the Mahamakut is mainly for bhikkhus
> studying the Pali as opposed to the dhamma in Thai, they come in
> several levels called 'Parien 1-9' listed in this page
>
> The lower half of the page with the numbers 1-9 at the end are the
> different levels and aspects of Pali required for the student to
pass
> the exams of each level.
>
> Other Pali grammar books are listed separately, and generally not
> included in the website. I will send you the list or translate the
> list for you if you wish, meanwhile perhaps you would like to browse
> the site, which also lists some books in English, although I didn't
> see the Kaccayana.

Thanks for the link but I can't read it just yet. The words seem to be
Thai rather than Pali because of the extra markings above the letters
that aren't seen in Pali which I think only has two of these markings.

I have a printed Burmese copy of Kaccayana's grammar where on the back
(in Burmese script) there is a list of 10 grammar books for sale:
Kaccayanavyakarana, Rupasiddhi, a Tika on the latter, Saddaniti (3
vols), the nissaya on the latter (3 vols), Niruttidipani, and
Payogasiddhi. Now when I look at a list like this, I see that I have
the first two. I would therefore be interested in getting the rest
except for the Burmese Nissaya which I wouldn't be able to read. So
when you get the list look to see if there are any similar books plus
any with the name Moggallana who is another well-known grammarian.
Besides these, there are many others I'm interested in as well. Others
to look for are the Abhidhanappadipika and commentaries on Kaccayana's
grammar.

[...]

> Personally I believe that we can study the dhamma in any
> languge, as long as they are correctly translated, which is why I
> still value those with Pali learning very greatly, but less than I
do
> the dhamma as applied in daily life of course. I think the more
Pali
> scholars we have the more chance of having correctly translated
books,
> which would be invaluable, such as in the case of the Thai scholars,
> these texts have been translated over and over for centuries, and
when
> the language had mutated, others would add their scholarship to try
to
> keep the meanings according to the original Pali as much as
possible.
> Which doesn't mean that there hasn't been any changes, but the
texts
> are still comprehensible to dhamma students, in spite of the extreme
> difficulty of the subject matter. Of course this is just my
opinion,

Thank you for the info and expressing your opinion which differs from
mine. I find it so much more preferrable to read and study the Pali
texts in the original language rather than in their translations which
are more prone to misinterpreting. Of course, most people do not have
the time and inclination to devote a big chunk of their life to the
study of Pali, so reading translations of the Buddhavacana is
certainly a lot better than nothing.

> > If you like, you could scan the pictures and upload them to the
photo
> > section. I'd also be interested in seeing pictures of Thai
calligraphy
> > of Pali words or passages.

> The first is a 'transcript' from the stone, the second a carving of
> the first sermon Indian style which is quite different from the Thai
> images. The third is the original stone with the inscription, now
> displayed at the local museum.

Thank you for the pictures which I have looked at. I find the script
very interesting and would like to go back and study it in more detail
as some of the characters looked familiar to me.

Thanks for your great response and help!

Best wishes,
Jim


731
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:07am
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Jim!

>Can you read French?

Not really, but line-by-line technical french isn't that hard. For 
example the 'Conspectus Terminorum' in H. Smith's edition of the 
Saddaniiti is invaluable. Stuff like 'le Verbe' is usually not harder 
than Pulp Fiction's "Le BigMac" :-) Just because I couldn't read 
Madame Bovary is no excuse not to employ Senart's translation, even 
if it will be a bumpy road.

>How long do you get to keep the book before you have to return it?

Depends. Could be from as little as three weeks to as long as 
open-ended, but I won't be allowed to take it home (assuming they 
send it at all)

>Are you still going to photocopy it?

Yes, definitely, since it's not for home loan.

As for the portion of the translation you quote, it looks like Hindi 
to me, but I can't be sure. Thanks again for all the info on that 
book!

/Rett
 
 
732
From: <crecelius@aol.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:47am
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    In a message dated 1/17/2004 8:06:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
joychay@hotmail.com writes:

> Suvannabhumi

Suvannabhumi was actually Burma not Thailand the way I understand it. Bill 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
733
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:40pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Rett,

> >Can you read French?
>
> Not really, but line-by-line technical french isn't that hard. For
> example the 'Conspectus Terminorum' in H. Smith's edition of the
> Saddaniiti is invaluable. Stuff like 'le Verbe' is usually not
harder
> than Pulp Fiction's "Le BigMac" :-) Just because I couldn't read
> Madame Bovary is no excuse not to employ Senart's translation, even
> if it will be a bumpy road.

I'm about the same although I did take French for 3 years at high
school. I find the French translations of the Pali terms in the
Conspectus to be valuable and as long as one has a French dictionary
and grammar to consult, it's not too difficult to figure out. I'd have
a much harder time with German which I wish I could read as there are
some articles worth reading by R. Otto Franke on Pali grammars in JPTS
1902-1903.

> As for the portion of the translation you quote, it looks like Hindi
> to me, but I can't be sure. Thanks again for all the info on that
> book!

I noticed that the editor (Tiwari) of the Va.n.nanaa on Kaccaayana has
an introduction to this work in Hindi. He is also the same editor and
translator of the grammar that I quoted from, so that adds more weight
to the language being Hindi. I have contacted Motilal Banarsidass in
the UK about the two commentaries and they will try to find it in
India which I will buy if they're successful. I transcribed the
Va.n.nanaa cty (16th cent.) on the first Kc introductory verse and
found it to be relatively easy to follow and quite helpful as every
word in the verse is explained in detail. I still have to transcribe
the rest on the second verse and then check the whole for errors after
which I will post. Here's a sample part for the first
line:

se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m, -- the first line of Kc
introductory verse 1

Commentary:
se.t.tho -- pasattho visesenaa ti; sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede
dhamme esati gavesatii ti se.t.tho. tilokamahit.am -- lujjati
palujjatii ti loko, cutikkha.ne lujjati, pa.tisandhikkha.ne palujjati,
puna nibbattati, loko ca loko ca loko ca lokaa,
kaama-ruupaaruupavasena tayo lokaa,
sattaloka-sa"nkhaaraloka-okaasalokavasena vaa tayo lokaa,
samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca; mahiiyate
puujiiyate ti mahito (buddho), tilokena mahito tilokamahito, ta.m
tilokamahita.m. agga.m -- uttama.m, sundara.m nibbaa.na.m ajati
gacchatii ti vaa aggo (buddho), ta.m agga.m. -- Kacc-va.n.n
(abhivandiya is explained further on)

Jim
 
 
734
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:07am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    > I have a printed Burmese copy of Kaccayana's grammar where on the back
> (in Burmese script) there is a list of 10 grammar books for sale:
> Kaccayanavyakarana, Rupasiddhi, a Tika on the latter, Saddaniti (3
> vols), the nissaya on the latter (3 vols), Niruttidipani, and
> Payogasiddhi. 



Hi Jim,

I would think Burma and India would be the ideal place to look for
such books, perhaps more than Thailand, given their familiarity with
the Roman script. I will ask some friends to help look in other
bookshops here as well, of course,

Will report,

Amara
 
 
735
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:09am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, crecelius@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/17/2004 8:06:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> joychay@h... writes:
> 
> > Suvannabhumi
> 
> Suvannabhumi was actually Burma not Thailand the way I understand
it. Bill 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Thank you, Bill,

I think that in the old days the borders might not be exactly what it
is now, unlike for Sri Lanka, and even then there were times when the
Sri Lankan Kings conquered some parts of Southern India. 

In any case the Thai and Burmese have captured each other's cities
according to the current king's military strengths and weaknesses much
like all other feudal systems all over the world. But the local
customs in Thailand, and I think in Burma as well, seem to think that
the merchants that received the two hairs from the Buddha in the
Mahaparinibbana Sutta were from Suvannabhuma that is modern day Burma,
you will not find anyone disputing that fact in Thailand, strangely
enough. But the two arahants Sona and Uttara are as firmly asserted
to have come to Thailand, also situated in the Suvannabhumi peninsula,
and landed at Nakorn Pathom, where the artifacts whose picture I
posted were found. [At the time Bangkok was not even built, nor the
other two preceding great Thai capitals.] There are evidences [mostly
local legends, though, no artifacts and such like at Nakorn Pathom]
that they traveled widely through what is now modern Thailand, I don't
know about Burma and the rest of the cities along the communication
routes, which would be mainly the waterways. 

The Suvannabhumi issue was discussed earlier on this list, also, at 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/message/314

in the archives here. 

In case you are interested,

Amara
 
 
736
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:34pm
Subject: introducing a new member

 
    Dear members,

I'm pleased to announce that Bhikkhu Pandita has joined our group. The
first time I heard about him was when he introduced himself to YP's
Pali group late last November and I really don't know much about him.
He has told me that he is a native and citizen of Myanmar who is
currently residing at a Chinese Mahayana temple in Zhong He city,
Taiwan where he is teaching Kaccayana to three Taiwanese students. He
was formerly a teacher of Pali at the International Theravada Buddhist
Missionary University (ITBMU) in Yangon. He also has some experience
in teaching Moggallana to foreign students. Pali teachers are rather
few and far between and even more so with those who teach the
classical grammars. I think we should all pay very close attention to
what he says.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
737
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Hi Amara,

> I would think Burma and India would be the ideal place to look for
> such books, perhaps more than Thailand, given their familiarity with
> the Roman script. I will ask some friends to help look in other
> bookshops here as well, of course,

I've already been enquiring about such books in India and Sri Lanka,
and plan to do the same for Burma and perhaps even Cambodia. This is
all part of a project of mine to compile a list of printed Pali texts
on the Pali language, availability, and how to get them. There would
be a resource page for anyone interested in acquiring such books. But
I'm afraid it's not going to be easy because of the language barrier
and the rarity of such books. I will keep working on it though but it
will take time.

To look for titles and their publishers, the online catalogues of
major university libraries are quite helpful. I don't know if there
are any such for Thai universities. I found out that the National
Library of Thailand does not have an online catalogue of their books
and even if they did I probably couldn't use it because it'll probably
be all in Thai!

I really appreciate your effort and hope you will continue to be on
the lookout for anyone who may know quite a bit more about such books
in Thailand. There's no hurry.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
738
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling kaccayana french version.french is much harder than german because they have female and male verb form .
Amara
you can help jim because you can photocopy Nyasa in thai script from wat tamaao in lampang.try find it in library.no thai publication of pali grammar except from this temple by a burmese mon names dhammadinna.they only have usual rupasiddhi and moggalana pancika.


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi Amara,

> I would think Burma and India would be the ideal place to look for
> such books, perhaps more than Thailand, given their familiarity with
> the Roman script. I will ask some friends to help look in other
> bookshops here as well, of course,

I've already been enquiring about such books in India and Sri Lanka,
and plan to do the same for Burma and perhaps even Cambodia. This is
all part of a project of mine to compile a list of printed Pali texts
on the Pali language, availability, and how to get them. There would
be a resource page for anyone interested in acquiring such books. But
I'm afraid it's not going to be easy because of the language barrier
and the rarity of such books. I will keep working on it though but it
will take time.

To look for titles and their publishers, the online catalogues of
major university libraries are quite helpful. I don't know if there
are any such for Thai universities. I found out that the National
Library of Thailand does not have an online catalogue of their books
and even if they did I probably couldn't use it because it'll probably
be all in Thai!

I really appreciate your effort and hope you will continue to be on
the lookout for anyone who may know quite a bit more about such books
in Thailand. There's no hurry.

Best wishes,
Jim




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
739
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    i am sorry because the burmese monk should be dhammananda

Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> wrote:jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling kaccayana french version.french is much harder than german because they have female and male verb form .
Amara
you can help jim because you can photocopy Nyasa in thai script from wat tamaao in lampang.try find it in library.no thai publication of pali grammar except from this temple by a burmese mon names dhammadinna.they only have usual rupasiddhi and moggalana pancika.


Jim Anderson wrote:
Hi Amara,

> I would think Burma and India would be the ideal place to look for
> such books, perhaps more than Thailand, given their familiarity with
> the Roman script. I will ask some friends to help look in other
> bookshops here as well, of course,

I've already been enquiring about such books in India and Sri Lanka,
and plan to do the same for Burma and perhaps even Cambodia. This is
all part of a project of mine to compile a list of printed Pali texts
on the Pali language, availability, and how to get them. There would
be a resource page for anyone interested in acquiring such books. But
I'm afraid it's not going to be easy because of the language barrier
and the rarity of such books. I will keep working on it though but it
will take time.

To look for titles and their publishers, the online catalogues of
major university libraries are quite helpful. I don't know if there
are any such for Thai universities. I found out that the National
Library of Thailand does not have an online catalogue of their books
and even if they did I probably couldn't use it because it'll probably
be all in Thai!

I really appreciate your effort and hope you will continue to be on
the lookout for anyone who may know quite a bit more about such books
in Thailand. There's no hurry.

Best wishes,
Jim




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
740
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 0:48am
Subject: Re: introducing a new member

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear members,
> 
> I'm pleased to announce that Bhikkhu Pandita has joined our group. The
> first time I heard about him was when he introduced himself to YP's
> Pali group late last November and I really don't know much about him.
> He has told me that he is a native and citizen of Myanmar who is
> currently residing at a Chinese Mahayana temple in Zhong He city,
> Taiwan where he is teaching Kaccayana to three Taiwanese students. He
> was formerly a teacher of Pali at the International Theravada Buddhist
> Missionary University (ITBMU) in Yangon. He also has some experience
> in teaching Moggallana to foreign students. Pali teachers are rather
> few and far between and even more so with those who teach the
> classical grammars. I think we should all pay very close attention to
> what he says.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim



Venerable sir,

Welcome to the list, I hope you will find our group of some interest.
We are delighted to have another Pali expert here, and would really
appreciate any help you can give us on some problems which might seem
elementary to you, such as the correct spellings in long composed
words. May we ask you about them, sir?

Thank you very much in advance,

Amara
 
 
741
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:01am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    > I've already been enquiring about such books in India and Sri Lanka,
> and plan to do the same for Burma and perhaps even Cambodia. This is
> all part of a project of mine to compile a list of printed Pali texts
> on the Pali language, availability, and how to get them. There would
> be a resource page for anyone interested in acquiring such books. But
> I'm afraid it's not going to be easy because of the language barrier
> and the rarity of such books. I will keep working on it though but it
> will take time.
> 
> To look for titles and their publishers, the online catalogues of
> major university libraries are quite helpful. I don't know if there
> are any such for Thai universities. I found out that the National
> Library of Thailand does not have an online catalogue of their books
> and even if they did I probably couldn't use it because it'll probably
> be all in Thai!


Hi Jim,

I'm sorry I didn't realize what you were planning to do, which seems
like a very useful project. I will ask more people to help collecting
information, and I am glad you are willing to wait since the daughter
of a friend of mine teaches in several institutions including the
Buddhist university at Wat Maha That, although at the moment she is
lecturing in Europe for the next few months, will be able to help us
when she gets back. 

Will report further,

Amara
 
 
742
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:08am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling kaccayana french
version.french is much harder than german because they have female and
male verb form .


Hi,

I think on the contrary, the German is harder because they not only
have the masculin and feminin, but also the neutral cases and
declensions; 




> Amara
> you can help jim because you can photocopy Nyasa in thai script from
wat tamaao in lampang.try find it in library.no thai publication of
pali grammar except from this temple by a burmese mon names
dhammadinna.they only have usual rupasiddhi and moggalana pancika.
> 
> 

I have friends who know the wat as well, is the Nyasa you mention in
print or manuscript? I know the wat has great reputation in Paali
learning, but didn't know they also printed the ancient texts,

Thank you very much in advance,

Amara
 
 
743
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:50am
Subject: Re: introducing a new member

 
    Dear Group,

I'm very happy to hear this good news. I would like to join in 
wishing Bhante a warm welcome to this group, thanking him for his 
generosity in joining, and hoping that our studies contribute to the 
spreading of Dhamma.

anjali

/Rett

>
>
>I'm pleased to announce that Bhikkhu Pandita has joined our group. The
>first time I heard about him was when he introduced himself to YP's
>Pali group late last November and I really don't know much about him.
>He has told me that he is a native and citizen of Myanmar who is
>currently residing at a Chinese Mahayana temple in Zhong He city,
>Taiwan where he is teaching Kaccayana to three Taiwanese students. He
>was formerly a teacher of Pali at the International Theravada Buddhist
>Missionary University (ITBMU) in Yangon. He also has some experience
>in teaching Moggallana to foreign students. Pali teachers are rather
>few and far between and even more so with those who teach the
>classical grammars. I think we should all pay very close attention to
>what he says.
 
 
744
From: <crecelius@aol.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:47am
Subject: Re: introducing a new member

 
    In a message dated 1/20/2004 5:39:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca writes:

> I'm pleased to announce that Bhikkhu Pandita has joined our group.

Bhikkhu Pandita may be able to give you a contact in Burma that could help 
you with the research on books you are doing. I knew a perfect person who used 
to teach at the University but he just died last year. I have one other 
resource that I will try and get back to you. Metta, Bill 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
745
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:01pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Dear Jim,
Just enjoying the text, and a few remarks. I do not give a proper
translation. Do not answer me, you are too busy.
op 19-01-2004 22:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m, -- the first line of Kc
> introductory verse 1
> 
> Commentary:
> se.t.tho
N: I kept your former explanation of this word and of pasa.t.tha. There was
so much on account of one word!

-- pasattho visesenaa ti; sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede
> dhamme esati gavesatii ti se.t.tho.
N: The meaning of an excellent person is explained in this text: <extolled
because of his qualities. He searches and strives (to know) the realities
that are included in the most valuable subject of satipatthana and so on.
Text: tilokamahit.am --
N: The honoured One of the three worlds.
lujjati
Text: palujjatii ti loko, cutikkha.ne lujjati, pa.tisandhikkha.ne palujjati,
> puna nibbattati, loko ca loko ca loko ca lokaa,
> kaama-ruupaaruupavasena tayo lokaa,
> sattaloka-sa"nkhaaraloka-okaasalokavasena vaa tayo lokaa,
N: I like this very much, a reminder how what is world breaks up. Even
rebirth-consciousness, immediately. And then rebirth again. palujjati: pa-
may give us another nuance, I do not know.
Okaasaloka: Vis. 204: the world of location: the verse: <As far as moon and
sun do circulate, etc,>
Then the repeat : loko ca loko ca loko ca lokaa.

Text: samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca;
N: why here an eunuch? with and without nutrition? This is a difficult one.
Text: mahiiyate
> puujiiyate ti mahito (buddho), tilokena mahito tilokamahito, ta.m
> tilokamahita.m. agga.m -- uttama.m, sundara.m nibbaa.na.m ajati
> gacchatii ti
N: ajati?
vaa aggo (buddho), ta.m agga.m. -- Kacc-va.n.n
> (abhivandiya is explained further on)
Thank you, 
Nina.
 
 
746
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:01pm
Subject: Re: introducing a new member

 
    Venerable Bhante
I am most grateful that you have joined this group. I am very keen to learn
more from you and Jim,
respectfully,
Nina. 
op 20-01-2004 23:34 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I'm pleased to announce that Bhikkhu Pandita has joined our group.
 
 
747
From: John Kelly <palistudent@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:05pm
Subject: Re: french version

 
    I am new to this list and still feeling my way, more as an observer 
than anything else - my Pali skills are not up to the level of 
others here. However, I do read French quite well and if I can 
offer any help in that regard, please let me know.

With metta,
John

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling kaccayana french 
version.french is much harder than german because they have female 
and male verb form .
> Amara
> you can help jim because you can photocopy Nyasa in thai script 
from wat tamaao in lampang.try find it in library.no thai 
publication of pali grammar except from this temple by a burmese mon 
names dhammadinna.they only have usual rupasiddhi and moggalana 
pancika.
> 
> 
> Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Hi Amara,
> 
> > I would think Burma and India would be the ideal place to look 
for
> > such books, perhaps more than Thailand, given their familiarity 
with
> > the Roman script. I will ask some friends to help look in other
> > bookshops here as well, of course,
> 
> I've already been enquiring about such books in India and Sri 
Lanka,
> and plan to do the same for Burma and perhaps even Cambodia. This 
is
> all part of a project of mine to compile a list of printed Pali 
texts
> on the Pali language, availability, and how to get them. There 
would
> be a resource page for anyone interested in acquiring such books. 
But
> I'm afraid it's not going to be easy because of the language 
barrier
> and the rarity of such books. I will keep working on it though but 
it
> will take time.
> 
> To look for titles and their publishers, the online catalogues of
> major university libraries are quite helpful. I don't know if there
> are any such for Thai universities. I found out that the National
> Library of Thailand does not have an online catalogue of their 
books
> and even if they did I probably couldn't use it because it'll 
probably
> be all in Thai!
> 
> I really appreciate your effort and hope you will continue to be on
> the lookout for anyone who may know quite a bit more about such 
books
> in Thailand. There's no hurry.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> palistudy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
748
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:22pm
Subject: Re: french version

 
    >I am new to this list and still feeling my way, more as an observer
>than anything else - my Pali skills are not up to the level of
>others here. However, I do read French quite well and if I can
>offer any help in that regard, please let me know.

That's great! I am sure there will be questions about the French if 
we are using Senart's edition. I think this sort of thing is why 
having a group is often better than going it alone.

best,

/Rett
 
 
749
From: John Kelly <palistudent@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:52pm
Subject: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    >Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
>jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling
>kaccayana french version.

What search parameters did you use to find this on abebooks? I 
couldn't find it.

John
 
 
750
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:51pm
Subject: Re: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    Hi John,

Welcome to the list! It's good to have you here. I searched
abebooks.com last night and came up with Senart's ed. of Kaccayana.
The book is very expensive at $152.70 usd if I remember correctly. If
it's the original 1871 printing, that might explain the high price
which is far more than I'd want to pay. It's much cheaper to get it
photocopied from copies kept in the big libraries. I'd suggest you use
the search word 'Kaccayana' as you'll also see another Kaccayana
grammar from India for about $6.00 usd which is quite cheap.

Hope this helps,

Jim

> >Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> >jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling
> >kaccayana french version.
>
> What search parameters did you use to find this on abebooks? I
> couldn't find it.
>
> John
 
 
751
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:42pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Hi Amara,

> Hi Jim,
>
> I'm sorry I didn't realize what you were planning to do, which seems
> like a very useful project. I will ask more people to help
collecting
> information, and I am glad you are willing to wait since the
daughter
> of a friend of mine teaches in several institutions including the
> Buddhist university at Wat Maha That, although at the moment she is
> lecturing in Europe for the next few months, will be able to help us
> when she gets back.

No problem, I can easily wait. I think Teng Kee has provided some very
useful information in the search for these books. Perhaps you (again
no hurry) or one of your friends could try to get in touch with Wat
Tamao to find out how those of us from outside the country and who
don't speak Thai can buy the grammar books they may have for sale. It
would be nice to have a photocopy of their Nyasa but that may be
asking too much. I'm aware of three other possible editions of the
Nyaasa coming down the pipeline so there's a good chance I'll be
getting one or more sooner or later. Once I get a copy in my hand I'll
be quoting portions of it to this group for study right away.

Thanks for your offer of helping me to find the books,

Jim
 
 
752
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    dear Amara,

I have given you the book title by supaphan =palivyakhan 500 baht from mahamakut.in this book last page ,she did give the published year for this book-nyaasa.Did you go and but it from mahamaku?

I was talking about french determiner has to change along with the nouns and the french verb has 6 form and also subjuntive forms which don't happen in german.


Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> wrote:


--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Ong Teng Kee wrote:
> jim,www.abebooks.com are still selling kaccayana french
version.french is much harder than german because they have female and
male verb form .


Hi,

I think on the contrary, the German is harder because they not only
have the masculin and feminin, but also the neutral cases and
declensions; 




> Amara
> you can help jim because you can photocopy Nyasa in thai script from
wat tamaao in lampang.try find it in library.no thai publication of
pali grammar except from this temple by a burmese mon names
dhammadinna.they only have usual rupasiddhi and moggalana pancika.
> 
> 

I have friends who know the wat as well, is the Nyasa you mention in
print or manuscript? I know the wat has great reputation in Paali
learning, but didn't know they also printed the ancient texts,

Thank you very much in advance,

Amara






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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
753
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:40pm
Subject: Re: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    Hi John,

I went back to abebooks.com to see the Senart book again and strangely
enough it's no longer listed as if it had been sold since I saw it
last night. It seems such an unusual coincidence that it has me
wondering if it was someone on this list that bought it, but I doubt
it.

Jim

> Welcome to the list! It's good to have you here. I searched
> abebooks.com last night and came up with Senart's ed. of Kaccayana.
> The book is very expensive at $152.70 usd if I remember correctly.
If
> it's the original 1871 printing, that might explain the high price
> which is far more than I'd want to pay. It's much cheaper to get it
> photocopied from copies kept in the big libraries. I'd suggest you
use
> the search word 'Kaccayana' as you'll also see another Kaccayana
> grammar from India for about $6.00 usd which is quite cheap.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Jim
 
 
754
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:14pm
Subject: namamala

 
    Dear Jim,

I think you shouldn't wait.Just ask amara to photocopy.That is a good book -namamala from www.asianeds.com


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi Amara,

> Hi Jim,
>
> I'm sorry I didn't realize what you were planning to do, which seems
> like a very useful project. I will ask more people to help
collecting
> information, and I am glad you are willing to wait since the
daughter
> of a friend of mine teaches in several institutions including the
> Buddhist university at Wat Maha That, although at the moment she is
> lecturing in Europe for the next few months, will be able to help us
> when she gets back.

No problem, I can easily wait. I think Teng Kee has provided some very
useful information in the search for these books. Perhaps you (again
no hurry) or one of your friends could try to get in touch with Wat
Tamao to find out how those of us from outside the country and who
don't speak Thai can buy the grammar books they may have for sale. It
would be nice to have a photocopy of their Nyasa but that may be
asking too much. I'm aware of three other possible editions of the
Nyaasa coming down the pipeline so there's a good chance I'll be
getting one or more sooner or later. Once I get a copy in my hand I'll
be quoting portions of it to this group for study right away.

Thanks for your offer of helping me to find the books,

Jim





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To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
755
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    that mason version is completely useless because it is not a translation but just some quotes.

Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:Hi John,

I went back to abebooks.com to see the Senart book again and strangely
enough it's no longer listed as if it had been sold since I saw it
last night. It seems such an unusual coincidence that it has me
wondering if it was someone on this list that bought it, but I doubt
it.

Jim

> Welcome to the list! It's good to have you here. I searched
> abebooks.com last night and came up with Senart's ed. of Kaccayana.
> The book is very expensive at $152.70 usd if I remember correctly.
If
> it's the original 1871 printing, that might explain the high price
> which is far more than I'd want to pay. It's much cheaper to get it
> photocopied from copies kept in the big libraries. I'd suggest you
use
> the search word 'Kaccayana' as you'll also see another Kaccayana
> grammar from India for about $6.00 usd which is quite cheap.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Jim





Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/

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palistudy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
756
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:55pm
Subject: Re: introducing a new member

 
    Hi Bill,

Welcome to the list! I hope you will find the discussions helpful.
There should be plenty of forthcoming class notes for you to read and
don't hesitate to ask for clarification if you don't understand
something.

> > I'm pleased to announce that Bhikkhu Pandita has joined our group.
>
> Bhikkhu Pandita may be able to give you a contact in Burma that
could help
> you with the research on books you are doing. I knew a perfect
person who used
> to teach at the University but he just died last year. I have one
other
> resource that I will try and get back to you. Metta, Bill

Thanks for the suggestion, I'm sure Ven. Pandita knows a thing or two
about the book situation in Myanmar. I think for my initial enquiry
I'd probably go to myanmarbook.com which seems to be based in Myanmar
as they say that they will photocopy manuscripts and rare books for
you. I was just at the site and I don't think their online search tool
will help much. You'd have to send them an email. Please let me know
if you have luck with your other resource.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
757
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:28pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Dear Nina,

Thanks for your translation which I will look at more carefully later
on when we start to study the commentary in detail. Just a few brief
comments for now.

> Text: samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca;
> N: why here an eunuch? with and without nutrition? This is a
difficult one.

This is a difficult one for me too. I think it is a comment about
grammatical number and gender and 'samaahaara', I think, has something
to do with one of the uses of the conjunctive. I'm confident the
difficulty will be solved after a bit of research.

I'm pretty sure 'ajati' is a verb equivalent in meaning to 'gacchati'
which shows the derivation of the word 'agga'. We will need to verify
that the root is 'aj' though. There's a lot to cover in detail and we
will just be taking our time. I think our study will go along way in
helping us to understand the language of the Tipitaka and the
explanations in its commentaries.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
> Just enjoying the text, and a few remarks. I do not give a proper
> translation. Do not answer me, you are too busy.
> op 19-01-2004 22:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
>
 
 
758
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:40am
Subject: Re: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    >
>I went back to abebooks.com to see the Senart book again and strangely
>enough it's no longer listed as if it had been sold since I saw it
>last night. It seems such an unusual coincidence that it has me
>wondering if it was someone on this list that bought it, but I doubt
>it.

Hi,

I ordered it immediately when I saw that it had come up. I hope I 
haven't stepped on anyone's toes by doing so. It was a heck of a 
splurge, but I am planning to put some serious time into pali 
vyakarana over the next year(s) so I thought it was worth it.

I'm looking into getting access to a digital copier and I'll be happy 
to send copies to people on the list, or perhaps to send a master 
copy to Jim which he can distribute in the states while I distribute 
in Eurasia. Since the book is long out of print I don't believe there 
are any copyright issues involved. If has better information on that 
subject please let me know.


best regards,

/Rett
 
 
759
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:03am
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    >
>Text: samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca;
>N: why here an eunuch? with and without nutrition? This is a difficult one.


A 'samaahaara' is a kind of dvandva compound where two things that 
form a natural pair are put together, and the whole is expressed in 
the singular neuter. The most typical example for us would be 
pattaciivara.m 'bowl and robe'.
This is probably the sense of samaahaara here, though the exact 
meaning of this compound is unclear to me without the context. 
Perhaps this is enough of a hint.

napu.msaka is the term for neuter case, as Jim mentioned.

ekattaa and napu.msakattaa appear to be in ablative...

perhaps tr. "because of (it's being) singular and neuter".

hope this helps,

/Rett


760
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    Hi Rett,

> I ordered it immediately when I saw that it had come up. I hope I
> haven't stepped on anyone's toes by doing so. It was a heck of a
> splurge, but I am planning to put some serious time into pali
> vyakarana over the next year(s) so I thought it was worth it.

Thanks for explaining how Senart's ed. disappeared off the shelf so
quickly! Puzzle solved! I'm delighted that you will have a copy of
this rare book. I bet it'll be a long time before another one like it
shows up on abebooks again, if ever. It's a good investment. As far as
I know, this is probably the only European ed. and transl. to come out
so far. It would be great if you could give a description of the book
after you get it (condition, contents, etc.).

> I'm looking into getting access to a digital copier and I'll be
happy
> to send copies to people on the list, or perhaps to send a master
> copy to Jim which he can distribute in the states while I distribute
> in Eurasia. Since the book is long out of print I don't believe
there
> are any copyright issues involved. If has better information on that
> subject please let me know.

I don't think copyright should be an issue as it's so old (133
years!). Perhaps the PTS might be interested in reprinting it like the
way they did H. Smith's Saddaniiti. I'm really surprised that until
recently the PTS had never published Pali grammatical texts before
which in my opinion are absolutely essential for the correct
understanding of Pali.

I'd be happy to have a copy and make copies for others in North
America who are interested in studying Pali. Since I live in the
backwoods far from town it may take a while to get a copy out. I have
the same idea about other such rare and out-of-print grammatical texts
as well. I think this kind of effort plays an important part in
promoting and encouraging serious interest in Pali learning. I wonder
how much trouble it would be to make a digital copy of Senart's book
with a scanner using the OCR software which can turn print into
digital characters? I have a scanner but find it doesn't work too well
with Pali as it can't read the special characters, however, it might
work with French. Perhaps, this could be done a small section at a
time as we slowly make our way through Kaccayana.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
    ADVERTISEMENT
 
         
 
 


 
761
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:58pm
Subject: Re: namamala

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

I still think it's a way too much to ask Amara and besides Lampang is
quite a ways up north. Perhaps someone at the Wat could do the
photocopying? Do you have a copy of it in your collection? Have you
heard anything lately about the reprinting of the Sinhalese ed. of the
Nyaasa text that you said would happen this year? Thanks for
mentioning the Naama-maalaa which I've never heard of before and there
is no mention of it in Geiger or the CPD bibliography. I put the title
in the search box at the website address you give but nothing came up.
Do you have this book and can you tell me anything more about it?

Best wishes,
Jim

> I think you shouldn't wait.Just ask amara to photocopy.That is a
good book -namamala from www.asianeds.com
 
 
762
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:34pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Rett,

> >Text: samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca;
> >N: why here an eunuch? with and without nutrition? This is a
difficult one.
>
>
> A 'samaahaara' is a kind of dvandva compound where two things that
> form a natural pair are put together, and the whole is expressed in
> the singular neuter. The most typical example for us would be
> pattaciivara.m 'bowl and robe'.
> This is probably the sense of samaahaara here, though the exact
> meaning of this compound is unclear to me without the context.
> Perhaps this is enough of a hint.

I did a little checking and found that "samaahaaraasamaahaaresu"
refers to the two kinds of digu compounds: samaahaaradigu &
asamaahaaradigu (collective & individual) which are discussed in
Warder, p.274; see also Sadd p.754, ll.7-12. This makes sense because
'tiloka.m' (the word being discussed) fits the description of a
samaahaara-digu compound.

> napu.msaka is the term for neuter case, as Jim mentioned.

That's right except I wouldn't call it a case but a gender (li"nga).
"napu.msakattaa" is a shortened form of "napu.msakali"ngattaa". The
commentator likes to keep his explanations short, it seems.

> ekattaa and napu.msakattaa appear to be in ablative...

I can agree with that. One problem I see is that the singular and
neuter does not apply to the asamaahaara-digu as the latter takes the
plural and gender of the second member (eg. tilokaa).

> perhaps tr. "because of (it's being) singular and neuter".

I think the "it's" should be 'it' (because [of the fact] of it being .
. .)

Jim
 
 
763
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:18pm
Subject: study note

 
    Dear members,

My next message contains the complete text (about a page long) that we
will start studying in detail. It contains the two introductory verses
of the Kaccaayanavyaakara.na with Mahaavijitaavi's commentary on them
from his Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa (16th or 17th cent.).

I will be working only on a small portion of the text at a time and
will start with the first word: 'se.t.tha.m' along with its short
comment which is:

se.t.tho -- pasattho visesenaa ti; sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede
dhamme esati gavesatii ti se.t.tho.

I will be studying it and preparing explanatory notes for you to read.
You are welcome to participate in whatever way you wish and you are
free to post presentations on how you understand the text.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
764
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:20pm
Subject: Kc intro verses with commentary

 
    Kc introductory verse 1:

se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca;
satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m [1],
vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m.
[1 IS suboddhu.m]

Commentary (Kacc-va.n.n):

se.t.tho -- pasattho visesenaa ti; sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede
dhamme esati gavesatii ti se.t.tho. tilokamahita.m -- lujjati
palujjatii ti loko, cutikkha.ne lujjati, pa.tisandhikkha.ne palujjati,
puna nibbattati, loko ca loko ca loko ca lokaa,
kaama-ruupaaruupavasena tayo lokaa,
sattaloka-sa"nkhaaraloka-okaasalokavasena vaa tayo lokaa,
samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca; mahiiyate
puujiiyate ti mahito (buddho), tilokena mahito tilokamahito, ta.m
tilokamahita.m. agga.m -- uttama.m, sundara.m nibbaa.na.m ajati
gacchatii ti vaa aggo (buddho), ta.m agga.m. buddha.m -- saama.m ca
sabbadhamme bujjhatii ti buddho, cattaari saccaani bujjhatii ti vaa
buddho, ta.m buddha.m. amala.m -- natthi malametassaa ti amalo
(malarahito suriyo viya, raagaadimalarahitattaa malapa.tipakkha.m),
ta.m amala.m. dhamma.m -- pa.tipajjamaane satte catuusu apaayesu
apatamaane katvaa dhaarayatii ti dhammo (sapariyattiko
navalokuttaradhammo), ta.m dhamma.m. uttama.m -- uddhato tamo yena so
uttamo, uggataana.m visesena uggato ti vaa uttamo (uggatamo ti
vattabbe niruttinayena uttamo ti vutta.m), uttamaana.m visesena uttamo
ti vaa uttamo (uttamatamo ti vattabbe saruupekasesavasena uttamo ti
vutta.m), se.t.thattaa vaa uttamo, ta.m uttama.m. ga.na.m --
ga.nitabbo sa"nkhyaatabbo ti ga.no (ariyasamuuho), ta.m ga.na.m.
abhivandiya -- abhipubbo vandadhaatu vandane, abhi adarena vanditvaa
ti abhivandiya. satthussa -- sadevake loke saasati anusaasatii ti
satthaa; kilesaadayo sasati hi.msatii ti vaa satthaa (bhagavaa), tassa
satthussa, sadevakassa lokaanusaasakassa. tassa -- taadisassa
buddhassa. vacanatthavara.m -- vaciiyate anenaa ti vacana.m; ariiyate
~naayate ti attho, arati ~naa.naabhimukha.m pavattatii ti vaa attho;
vacanassa attho vacanattho; varitabbo patthetabbo ti varo,
uttamatthena vaa varo; vacanattho ca varo caa ti vacanatthavaro, ta.m
vacanatthavara.m, paalyatthavara.m. suboddhu.m -- su.t.thu boddhu.m
bujjhitun ti suboddhu.m, su.t.thu ~naatu.m ettha -- etasmi.m.
suttahita.m -- atthe sucetii ti sutta.m, su.t.thu.m vuttan ti vaa
sutta.m, atthe abhisavetii ti vaa sutta.m, atthe paggharaapetii ti vaa
sutta.m, su.t.thu atthe taayatii ti vaa sutta.m, suttasadisattaa vaa
sutta.m; hito ti anuruupa.m pavattati, suttassa hito suttahito
(sandhikappo), ta.m suttahita.m, pi.takattayaanukula.m.
susandhikappa.m -- dvinna.m padaana.m antara.m adassetvaa
sammaapakaarena dhiiyati gha.tiiyatii ti sandhi, samodhaana.m vaa
sandhi, sandhi ca sandhi ca sandhi ca sandhi, naanaabhedabhinnaa ti
atthaa; kappiya.m paricchijjiiyati etthaa ti kappo; sundaro
sandhikappo tathaa susandhikappa.m. vakkhaami -- bhaasissaami.

Kc introductory verse 2:

seyya.m jineritanayena budhaa labhanti,
ta~ncaapi tassa vacanatthasubodhanena;
attha~nca akkharapadesu amohabhaavaa [1],
seyyatthiko padamato vividha.m su.neyya [2].
[1 S ameha-; 2 M2 su.neyya.m]

Commentary (Kacc-va.n.n):

bujjhantii ti budhaa bhabbapuggalaa; paapake akusale dhamme jinaati
ajini jinissatii ti jino bhagavaa, iriiyate ti irito, jinena irito
jinerito, niiyati attho etenaa ti nayo (saddanayo) netabbo ti vaa
(atthanayo), jinerito ca so nayo caa ti tathaa tena; pasattho
visesenaa ti seyyo pasatthaana.m visesena pasattho ti vaa seyyo
lokuttaradhammo ta.m seyya.m; labhantii ti pa.tipajjanti; ta.m caa pii
ti ta.m jineritanaya.m api; vacanassa attho vacanattho, su.t.thu
bujjhiiyate ti subodhana.m, vacanatthassa subodhana.m
vacanatthasubodhana.m, tena vaacakabhaavena; anantamabhidheyya.m
patvaa nakkharantii ti akkharaa, padiiyanti gamiiyanti etehii ti
padaani, akkharaani ca padaani ca tathaa tesu; mohetii ti moho, natthi
moho etesan ti amoho, bhavana.m bhaavo, amohaana.m bhaavo amohabhaavo
tamhaa, kara.natthe pa~ncamii; seyyena attho seyyattho, seyyattho assa
atthii ti seyyatthiko; ato ti tasmaa; vividhaa pakaaraa etassaa ti
vividha.m; akkharapada.m; su.neyyaa ti sikkheyya.

<end>
 
 
765
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 0:18am
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Hi Rett,
Thank you very much. I never thought of neuter case. Useful to know.
Nina. 
op 22-01-2004 10:03 schreef rett op rett@telia.com:

>> 
>> Text: samaahaaraasamaahaaresu ekattaa napu.msakattaa ca;
>> N: why here an eunuch? with and without nutrition? This is a difficult one.
> 
> 
> A 'samaahaara' is a kind of dvandva compound where two things that
> form a natural pair are put together, and the whole is expressed in
> the singular neuter. The most typical example for us would be
> pattaciivara.m 'bowl and robe'.
> This is probably the sense of samaahaara here, though the exact
> meaning of this compound is unclear to me without the context.
> Perhaps this is enough of a hint.
> 
> napu.msaka is the term for neuter case, as Jim mentioned.
> 
> ekattaa and napu.msakattaa appear to be in ablative...
> 
> perhaps tr. "because of (it's being) singular and neuter".
 
 
766
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for the text. The explanations about the digu compound
are very clear. 
I am also delighted John joined. I did not offer help with French, being
involved in other projects. If it is only a phrase, I can help. You will not
hear from me between jan 27 and Febr 13, being in Thailand.
See below. 
op 23-01-2004 01:34 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> Warder, p.274; see also Sadd p.754, ll.7-12. This makes sense because
> 'tiloka.m' (the word being discussed) fits the description of a
> samaahaara-digu compound.
N: I checked Warder. The digu-compound of three worlds.
Obviously samaahaara-digu is just the name of the digu, but we shall come to
it why it is samaahaara.
Useful to learn more grammatical terms, it will help with my Visuddhimagga
Tiika. 
Thank you,
Nina.
 
 
767
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:31pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    >.
>
>I did a little checking and found that "samaahaaraasamaahaaresu"
>refers to the two kinds of digu compounds: samaahaaradigu &
>asamaahaaradigu (collective & individual) which are discussed in
>Warder, p.274; see also Sadd p.754, ll.7-12. This makes sense because
>'tiloka.m' (the word being discussed) fits the description of a
>samaahaara-digu compound.

Bingo! Thanks.
 
 
768
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    > No problem, I can easily wait. I think Teng Kee has provided some very
> useful information in the search for these books. Perhaps you (again
> no hurry) or one of your friends could try to get in touch with Wat
> Tamao to find out how those of us from outside the country and who
> don't speak Thai can buy the grammar books they may have for sale. It
> would be nice to have a photocopy of their Nyasa but that may be
> asking too much. I'm aware of three other possible editions of the
> Nyaasa coming down the pipeline so there's a good chance I'll be
> getting one or more sooner or later. Once I get a copy in my hand I'll
> be quoting portions of it to this group for study right away.
> 
> Thanks for your offer of helping me to find the books,
> 
> Jim


Hi Jim,

On Monday I will ask the person who knows the wat to find out about
their publications and whether he thinks it would be possible to
photocopy the Nyaasa, and will report. You might want the Thai copy
to compare with even if you had the other versions, although I look
forward very much to whatever you might want to share with us,

Thank you again and anumodana with your kusala cetana,

Amara
 
 
769
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:29am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> dear Amara,
> 
> I have given you the book title by supaphan =palivyakhan 500 baht
from mahamakut.in this book last page ,she did give the published year
for this book-nyaasa.Did you go and but it from mahamaku?
> 
> I was talking about french determiner has to change along with the
nouns and the french verb has 6 form and also subjuntive forms which
don't happen in german.
> 
> 

Hi, 

I will also look into this book on Monday, when a friend who works
just above the Wat's bookstore will be able to acquire it for us, if
any are available at this time. 

Thanks for the clarification, although I hardly know any German. I
have studied a bit of French, as have many of us here it seems, but if
need be I can certainly translate it for you, if you wish,

Much metta,

Amara
 
 
770
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:34am
Subject: Re: namamala

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> 
> I think you shouldn't wait.Just ask amara to photocopy.That is a
good book -namamala from www.asianeds.com
> 
> 


Hi again,

Would you mind translating the above, TK?

Thanks in advance,

Amara
 
 
771
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:43am
Subject: Re: kaccayana french version

 
    > I'm looking into getting access to a digital copier and I'll be happy 
> to send copies to people on the list, or perhaps to send a master 
> copy to Jim which he can distribute in the states while I distribute 
> in Eurasia. Since the book is long out of print I don't believe there 
> are any copyright issues involved. If has better information on that 
> subject please let me know.
> 
> 
> best regards,
> 
> /Rett



Hi Rett,

I have a CD writer and a lot of free discs, if that could be of any
service to you, please don't hesitate to tell me. I also have a huge
mailbox affiliated to my website, if you want to send files; so we
could provide everyone with the CDs. If you think it might work we
might discuss this off list or on, as you wish,

Amara
 
 
772
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:06am
Subject: Re: Kc intro verses with commentary

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Kc introductory verse 1:
> 
> se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
> buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca;
> satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m [1],
> vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m.
> [1 IS suboddhu.m]
> 
> Commentary (Kacc-va.n.n):
> 
> se.t.tho -- pasattho visesenaa ti; sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede
> dhamme esati gavesatii ti se.t.tho. tilokamahita.m -- 


Hi Jim,

Thank you for this, I find it amazing to find the mention of
satipa.t.thaana in the intorduction of the book, even if it is in the
commentary part... although I am still a bit lost as to the rest,

It's so great!

Amara
 
 [773 deleted - duplicate of 768]

774
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:00pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    Dear Nina,

> Thank you very much for the text. The explanations about the digu
compound
> are very clear.
> I am also delighted John joined. I did not offer help with French,
being
> involved in other projects. If it is only a phrase, I can help. You
will not
> hear from me between jan 27 and Febr 13, being in Thailand.

It seems that there are quite a few of us here that can help with the
French! For some reason or other, we lost Dimitry. But I still think
our list has done well in being able to keep most of its subscribers
over the past 3 years. The only other one gone is Gayan but this may
be due to some cyber anomaly and I will have to check with him again.

I hope you have a nice trip to Thailand which is only a few days off,
so soon. We will miss your contributions. If you want to set some of
your email subscriptions to 'no mail' without having to go to the
Yahoogroups website, you can do it by sending a blank message, as in
the case for palistudy, to: palistudy-nomail@yahoogroups.com . I have
tested it and it seems to work but I'm not yet sure how to reset it
back to mail. Still working on it. You can also set to daily digest by
substituting 'digest' for 'nomail' but this seting is more ideal for
those who rarely post. If you wish to set it to no mail I can save all
the messages into one file for you to read when you get back.

> See below.
> op 23-01-2004 01:34 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> > Warder, p.274; see also Sadd p.754, ll.7-12. This makes sense
because
> > 'tiloka.m' (the word being discussed) fits the description of a
> > samaahaara-digu compound.
> N: I checked Warder. The digu-compound of three worlds.
> Obviously samaahaara-digu is just the name of the digu, but we shall
come to
> it why it is samaahaara.
> Useful to learn more grammatical terms, it will help with my
Visuddhimagga
> Tiika.

The 'samaahaara' word also comes up in the explanations of dvanda
compounds and the particle 'ca'. The translation of the term in both
the French and in Warder is 'collective'. At some point we will be
looking deeper into the word's etymology and meaning.

Best wishes and hope you enjoy your trip,
Jim
 
 
775
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:11pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Dear Amara,

> On Monday I will ask the person who knows the wat to find out about
> their publications and whether he thinks it would be possible to
> photocopy the Nyaasa, and will report. You might want the Thai copy
> to compare with even if you had the other versions, although I look
> forward very much to whatever you might want to share with us,

Thanks a lot, Amara! I would like very much to have a photocopy of the
Wat's copy of the Nyaasa if that is at all possible. There's no
absolute guarantee yet that I will come into possession of the other
versions, so it makes sense to try and get whatever one can and
besides it's good to have as many versions as possible for comparing
the accuracy of the readings. I'd want very much to share the text
with the group for us to study. Perhaps we could try to make a digital
etext version of it for easier distribution. I'll pay for all the
costs of the books, photocopying, and mailing even if I have to pay
someone to do it.

Mahachulalongkornrajvidyalaya University may be another place to look
as I saw on their website that they offer the following course:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<< Course Descriptions

000 173 Comparative Study of Pali Grammar I 2 (2-0-4)

A comparative study of Pali Grammar in three texts, namely; Kaccayana,
Moggallana and Saddaniti by comparing with Sutta, Vutti, instance in
Sondhikanda (combination portion), Namakanda (noun portion),
Akhayatakanda (conjugation of verbs) and Kibbidhakanda. >>

Just the sort of thing that interests me a great deal.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
776
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:32pm
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> > On Monday I will ask the person who knows the wat to find out about
> > their publications and whether he thinks it would be possible to
> > photocopy the Nyaasa, and will report. You might want the Thai copy
> > to compare with even if you had the other versions, although I look
> > forward very much to whatever you might want to share with us,
> 
> Thanks a lot, Amara! I would like very much to have a photocopy of the
> Wat's copy of the Nyaasa if that is at all possible. There's no
> absolute guarantee yet that I will come into possession of the other
> versions, so it makes sense to try and get whatever one can and
> besides it's good to have as many versions as possible for comparing
> the accuracy of the readings. I'd want very much to share the text
> with the group for us to study. Perhaps we could try to make a digital
> etext version of it for easier distribution. I'll pay for all the
> costs of the books, photocopying, and mailing even if I have to pay
> someone to do it.
> 
> Mahachulalongkornrajvidyalaya University may be another place to look
> as I saw on their website that they offer the following course:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> << Course Descriptions
> 
> 000 173 Comparative Study of Pali Grammar I 2 (2-0-4)
> 
> A comparative study of Pali Grammar in three texts, namely; Kaccayana,
> Moggallana and Saddaniti by comparing with Sutta, Vutti, instance in
> Sondhikanda (combination portion), Namakanda (noun portion),
> Akhayatakanda (conjugation of verbs) and Kibbidhakanda. >>
> 
> Just the sort of thing that interests me a great deal.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Hi Jim,

The page I sent you the link to, from the Mahamakuta site, also lists
a lot of grammar books treating 

> Sondhikanda (combination portion), Namakanda (noun portion),
> Akhayatakanda (conjugation of verbs) and Kibbidhakanda. >>

etc., probably the Thai adaptation of the ancient texts, would those
interest you as well? Would you like me to translate the parts about
the grammar books for you, just in case? Or would you be more
interested in the ancient texts as such, with commentaries apart, as I
think you might,

I'm sorry about the accidental duplication of one of the messages I
sent last time, I have deleted it from your archives,

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
777
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:45pm
Subject: Re: Kaccayana edition

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> Thank you very much for the text. The explanations about the digu
compound
> are very clear. 
> I am also delighted John joined. I did not offer help with French, being
> involved in other projects. If it is only a phrase, I can help. You
will not
> hear from me between jan 27 and Febr 13, being in Thailand.
> See below. 
> op 23-01-2004 01:34 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...:
> > Warder, p.274; see also Sadd p.754, ll.7-12. This makes sense because
> > 'tiloka.m' (the word being discussed) fits the description of a
> > samaahaara-digu compound.
> N: I checked Warder. The digu-compound of three worlds.
> Obviously samaahaara-digu is just the name of the digu, but we shall
come to
> it why it is samaahaara.
> Useful to learn more grammatical terms, it will help with my
Visuddhimagga
> Tiika. 
> Thank you,
> Nina.



Dear Nina,

I think you always have a very busy schedule while you are in
Thailand, with all the dhamma activities, but if you have some free
time Charupan and I would love to invite you to lunch if we may, only
if you have a free moment of course. She has begun her third course
of treatment for her illness, by the way, and seems to be responding
rather better than the last two series, so it may also depend on her
feeling well enough to go out, but we know everything is according to
conditions, and hope for the best as always. Wishing you all the very
best also, and

Welcome to Thailand in advance,

Amara
 
 
778
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Dear Amara,

> The page I sent you the link to, from the Mahamakuta site, also
lists
> a lot of grammar books treating
>
> > Sondhikanda (combination portion), Namakanda (noun portion),
> > Akhayatakanda (conjugation of verbs) and Kibbidhakanda. >>
>
> etc., probably the Thai adaptation of the ancient texts, would those
> interest you as well? Would you like me to translate the parts
about
> the grammar books for you, just in case? Or would you be more
> interested in the ancient texts as such, with commentaries apart, as
I
> think you might,

I'm just interested in old Pali grammatical texts with their
commentaries in Pali. I would think the Thai adaptations would mean
that the explanations are in the Thai language which I wouldn't
understand. I think a lot of the material for studying Pali in Asian
countries are probably in the language of each country and that
may explain why it is so hard to find the explanatory texts in
Pali as very few study them anymore in preference for something in
their own language. I believe the situation is similar in Myanmar. One
of the reasons why Buddhaghosa translated the commentaries back into
Pali was because very few from outside Sri Lanka could read them.
Pali, like Latin, is the 'lingua franca' of Theravadins. You could try
getting that Kaccayana-Pali book from the Mahamakuta bookstore to
compare with the Kaccayana passages I post for differences in the
readings which we can incorporate into the text. You might also find
some interesting information in the introduction and notes that you
may like to translate for us.

> I'm sorry about the accidental duplication of one of the messages I
> sent last time, I have deleted it from your archives,

Thanks for deleting.

Jim
 
 
779
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:02am
Subject: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Jim and Everyone,

Here come some questions about the first introductory first which Jim 
has kindly provided to us. All help, comments or criticisms are very 
welcome.

Attempt at literal translation:

Having saluted the best, world-honoured, topmost
Buddha, and the stainless Dhamma, and the supreme assembly,
To well-understand the choice meaning of the sayings of that teacher
I will here tell, placed in suttas, the right usage of sandhi.

1) suttahitam: Is this an adjective qualifying susandhikappam? What 
does it mean here? In the above translation I chose the meaning of 
'hita' = 'placed', but there are other senses of the word as well. 
What works best?

2) subuddhu.m: I took this as an infinitive (< bujjhati to realize, 
to understand) with prefixed 'su'='well', "to understand well". PED 
said that 'su' can be prefixed to 'some verb forms'. Is the 
infinitive normally one of them?

3) -vara: I translated 'choice' as in 'a choice steak', meaning 'of 
the best sort'. Seems okay?

In the commentary, there is an interesting nirutti (etymological 
explanation) of the word uttama.m: uddhato tamo yena so uttamo,'that 
which removes darkness is ultimate.' Perhaps this is obvious to 
everyone but did you notice the pun? ud(dhato) tamo > udtamo >uttamo ?

I find these punning etymologies charming and interesting. They are 
meant to be edifying of course, and perhaps they also function as 
mnemonics, since it's easier to remember things if you make patterns 
of association. Of course in this case it's linguistically 
indefensible. Uttamo is composed of the prefix ut- plus -tamo, the 
superlative suffix litterally 'uppermost'.

4) I was wondering if the commentator should have written _uddhata.m_ 
tamo yena so uttamo. 'Tamo' = skrt 'tamas' which is neuter but the 
commentator seems to be treating it as a masculine -a stem word. Is 
this a mistake, or is there a viable new form 'tamo' (m) -a stem?

5) When was this commentary written? I have the idea it's a later 
commentary, so we're talking about an adult who consciously learned 
Pali as a second language, right? So a grammar mistake like in 
question 4, might be possible, unlike with more canonical texts, 
where unique forms are raw data, coming as they presumably do from 
something more like 'native speakers'.

In the verse, I took ga.nam uttama.m as simply referring to the 
Sangha, since the invocation seems to start out by honouring the 
three Jewels. There the commentary gives another punning etymology: 
'ga.nitabbo sankhyaatabbo ti ga.no' 'To-be reckoned, to be counted, 
is ga.no'. This raises a couple of questions.

6) Might this one indeed be linguistically correct? Is the Pali word 
'ga.na'='troop' (especially a group of followers of a samana) derived 
from the idea of a group of items one could 'count'?

7) Is the sense of 'count' in the etymological explanation, more than 
just counting 1,2,3 etc, but does it imply the sense 'to be reckoned 
with', i.e. important? So that the explanation is suggesting that the 
uttamo ga.no is the supreme group, the ariyasangha, which are the 
people who 'count'='matter'? I'm not sure, but I believe that Pali 
also has both of these senses, within the semantic field of 'count', 
so it wouldn't just be an English wordplay being projected back onto 
the Pali.

That's probably enough for this morning, as I've got lots to do.

best regards,

/Rett
 
 
780
From: robert kirkpatrick <rjkjp1@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:28am
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Rett,
Nice to read your translation - edifying indeed!
If you have time to give the pali line by line with
the English it will make it easier for beginners like
me to follow. 
Appreciate
Robert
--- rett <rett@telia.com> wrote:
> Hi Jim and Everyone,
> 
> Here come some questions about the first
> introductory first which Jim 
> has kindly provided to us. All help, comments or
> criticisms are very 
> welcome.
> 
> Attempt at literal translation:
> 
> Having saluted the best, world-honoured, topmost
> Buddha, and the stainless Dhamma, and the supreme
> assembly,
> To well-understand the choice meaning of the sayings
> of that teacher
> I will here tell, placed in suttas, the right usage
> of sandhi.
> 
> 1) suttahitam: Is this an adjective qualifying
> susandhikappam? What 
> does it mean here? In the above translation I chose
> the meaning of 
> 'hita' = 'placed', but there are other senses of the
> word as well. 
> What works best?
> 
> 2) subuddhu.m: I took this as an infinitive (<
> bujjhati to realize, 
> to understand) with prefixed 'su'='well', "to
> understand well". PED 
> said that 'su' can be prefixed to 'some verb forms'.
> Is the 
> infinitive normally one of them?
> 
> 3) -vara: I translated 'choice' as in 'a choice
> steak', meaning 'of 
> the best sort'. Seems okay?
> 
> In the commentary, there is an interesting nirutti
> (etymological 
> explanation) of the word uttama.m: uddhato tamo yena
> so uttamo,'that 
> which removes darkness is ultimate.' Perhaps this is
> obvious to 
> everyone but did you notice the pun? ud(dhato) tamo
> > udtamo >uttamo ?
> 
> I find these punning etymologies charming and
> interesting. They are 
> meant to be edifying of course, and perhaps they
> also function as 
> mnemonics, since it's easier to remember things if
> you make patterns 
> of association. Of course in this case it's
> linguistically 
> indefensible. Uttamo is composed of the prefix ut-
> plus -tamo, the 
> superlative suffix litterally 'uppermost'.
> 
> 4) I was wondering if the commentator should have
> written _uddhata.m_ 
> tamo yena so uttamo. 'Tamo' = skrt 'tamas' which is
> neuter but the 
> commentator seems to be treating it as a masculine
> -a stem word. Is 
> this a mistake, or is there a viable new form 'tamo'
> (m) -a stem?
> 
> 5) When was this commentary written? I have the idea
> it's a later 
> commentary, so we're talking about an adult who
> consciously learned 
> Pali as a second language, right? So a grammar
> mistake like in 
> question 4, might be possible, unlike with more
> canonical texts, 
> where unique forms are raw data, coming as they
> presumably do from 
> something more like 'native speakers'.
> 
> In the verse, I took ga.nam uttama.m as simply
> referring to the 
> Sangha, since the invocation seems to start out by
> honouring the 
> three Jewels. There the commentary gives another
> punning etymology: 
> 'ga.nitabbo sankhyaatabbo ti ga.no' 'To-be reckoned,
> to be counted, 
> is ga.no'. This raises a couple of questions.
> 
> 6) Might this one indeed be linguistically correct?
> Is the Pali word 
> 'ga.na'='troop' (especially a group of followers of
> a samana) derived 
> from the idea of a group of items one could 'count'?
> 
> 7) Is the sense of 'count' in the etymological
> explanation, more than 
> just counting 1,2,3 etc, but does it imply the sense
> 'to be reckoned 
> with', i.e. important? So that the explanation is
> suggesting that the 
> uttamo ga.no is the supreme group, the ariyasangha,
> which are the 
> people who 'count'='matter'? I'm not sure, but I
> believe that Pali 
> also has both of these senses, within the semantic
> field of 'count', 
> so it wouldn't just be an English wordplay being
> projected back onto 
> the Pali.
> 
> That's probably enough for this morning, as I've
> got lots to do.
> 
> best regards,
> 
> /Rett
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
 
 
781
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:09am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    > > I have given you the book title by supaphan =palivyakhan 500 baht
> from mahamakut.in this book last page ,she did give the published year
> for this book-nyaasa.Did you go and but it from mahamaku?
> >


Hi,

A report on my book quest so far,

In the above book the explanations are in Thai and not Paali,
according to Num, who is lending me his copy which is 'as thick as a
phone book', and which he is not using although he is taking some Pali
courses at Wat Mahathat currently, despite his very busy schedule. [He
leaves for somewhere upcountry tomorrow as well!] He has kindly
offered to find out more about the Wat Ta Ma Oh publications because
his teacher was also a student there, and only recently returned from
Lampang where he attended the Abbot's birthday celebrations. The
Wat's Nyaasa was published in 1952, according to the last page in
Supaphan's bibliography to her own massive book. I think there may be
some copies available in Bangkok, Num thinks he might be able to find
one, and also said it's probably in Burmese print, he's not sure if
the explanations are in Burmese, but he will find out more for us. 

I was unable to talk to my friend at Wat Bowon today, but according to
the list he sent me the grammar books are as you said, mainly with
Thai explanations. I wonder what languages the courses you mentioned: 

'Mahachulalongkornrajvidyalaya University may be another place to look
as I saw on their website that they offer the following course:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<< Course Descriptions

000 173 Comparative Study of Pali Grammar I 2 (2-0-4)

A comparative study of Pali Grammar in three texts, namely; Kaccayana,
Moggallana and Saddaniti by comparing with Sutta, Vutti, instance in
Sondhikanda (combination portion), Namakanda (noun portion),
Akhayatakanda (conjugation of verbs) and Kibbidhakanda. >>'

are taught in, will call them tomorrow and report further,

Amara
 
 
782
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:29am
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    >
>If you have time to give the pali line by line with
>the English it will make it easier for beginners like
>me to follow.

Hi!

Here comes what is basically the same translation, divvied up 
word-by-word, with some vocalic sandhis broken up, and the component 
parts of compounds indicated. I just would like to warn you first 
that there are some spots I'm unclear about, so this is only a 
snapshot of how I understand the verse so far. Several points 
probably need changing. Still I think the overall structure is right.


se.t.tha.m tiloka-mahita.m abhivandiya agga.m,

(The) best world-honoured having saluted topmost


buddha~n ca dhammam amala.m ga.nam uttama~n ca;

Buddha and the stainless Dhamma the ultimate gang and;


satthussa tassa vacana-attha-vara.m su-buddhu.m

Of that teacher the choice meaning of the sayings to well-understand


vakkhaami sutta-hitam ettha su-sandhi-kappa.m.

I will tell placed in suttas here the right usage of sandhi.



some potentially hard words:

abhivandiya = abhivanditvaa, i.e absolutive < abhivandati (see 
Saddaniiti page 856, 1201)

vakkhaami is irregular 1st person singular _future_ < root 'vac' to 
speak. (see Geiger 152, and Saddaniiti page 829, 970,971)


Once again, in the right order:

Having saluted the best, world-honoured, topmost
Buddha, and the Stainless Dhamma, and the Ultimate Gang,
To well-understand the choice meaning of the sayings of that teacher
I will here tell, placed in suttas, the right usage of sandhi.

hope this helps,

/Rett
 
 
783
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:14pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Rett,
Thanks a lot,
I take this on my jouney,
Nina. 
op 26-01-2004 17:29 schreef rett op rett@telia.com:

> 
> Here comes what is basically the same translation, divvied up
> word-by-word, with some vocalic sandhis broken up, and the component
> parts of compounds indicated. I just would like to warn you first
> that there are some spots I'm unclear about, so this is only a
> snapshot of how I understand the verse so far. Several points
> probably need changing. Still I think the overall structure is right.
> 
> 
> se.t.tha.m tiloka-mahita.m abhivandiya agga.m,
> 
> (The) best world-honoured having saluted topmost
> 
> 
> buddha~n ca dhammam amala.m ga.nam uttama~n ca;
> 
> Buddha and the stainless Dhamma the ultimate gang and;
> 
> 
> satthussa tassa vacana-attha-vara.m su-buddhu.m
> 
> Of that teacher the choice meaning of the sayings to well-understand
> 
> 
> vakkhaami sutta-hitam ettha su-sandhi-kappa.m.
> 
> I will tell placed in suttas here the right usage of sandhi.
> 
> 
> 
> some potentially hard words:
> 
> abhivandiya = abhivanditvaa, i.e absolutive < abhivandati (see
> Saddaniiti page 856, 1201)
> 
> vakkhaami is irregular 1st person singular _future_ < root 'vac' to
> speak. (see Geiger 152, and Saddaniiti page 829, 970,971)
> 
> 
> Once again, in the right order:
> 
> Having saluted the best, world-honoured, topmost
> Buddha, and the Stainless Dhamma, and the Ultimate Gang,
> To well-understand the choice meaning of the sayings of that teacher
> I will here tell, placed in suttas, the right usage of sandhi.
>
 
 
784
From: robert kirkpatrick <rjkjp1@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:19pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Thanks!
--- rett <rett@telia.com> wrote:
> >
> >If you have time to give the pali line by line with
> >the English it will make it easier for beginners
> like
> >me to follow.
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Here comes what is basically the same translation,
> divvied up 
> word-by-word, with some vocalic sandhis broken up,
> and the component 
> parts of compounds indicated. I just would like to
> warn you first 
> that there are some spots I'm unclear about, so this
> is only a 
> snapshot of how I understand the verse so far.
> Several points 
> probably need changing. Still I think the overall
> structure is right.
> 
> 
> se.t.tha.m tiloka-mahita.m abhivandiya agga.m,
> 
> (The) best world-honoured having saluted 
> topmost
> 
> 
> buddha~n ca dhammam amala.m ga.nam uttama~n ca;
> 
> Buddha and the stainless Dhamma the ultimate
> gang and;
> 
> 
> satthussa tassa vacana-attha-vara.m 
> su-buddhu.m
> 
> Of that teacher the choice meaning of the sayings
> to well-understand
> 
> 
> vakkhaami sutta-hitam ettha 
> su-sandhi-kappa.m.
> 
> I will tell placed in suttas here the right
> usage of sandhi.
> 
> 
> 
> some potentially hard words:
> 
> abhivandiya = abhivanditvaa, i.e absolutive <
> abhivandati (see 
> Saddaniiti page 856, 1201)
> 
> vakkhaami is irregular 1st person singular _future_
> < root 'vac' to 
> speak. (see Geiger 152, and Saddaniiti page 829,
> 970,971)
> 
> 
> Once again, in the right order:
> 
> Having saluted the best, world-honoured, topmost
> Buddha, and the Stainless Dhamma, and the Ultimate
> Gang,
> To well-understand the choice meaning of the sayings
> of that teacher
> I will here tell, placed in suttas, the right usage
> of sandhi.
> 
> hope this helps,
> 
> /Rett
> 
>
 
 
785
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:53pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Rett,

What a wonderful contribution and with good questions and comments. I
have to agree with Robert that your translation is edifying!

> 1) suttahitam: Is this an adjective qualifying susandhikappam? What
> does it mean here? In the above translation I chose the meaning of
> 'hita' = 'placed', but there are other senses of the word as well.
> What works best?

Yes to your first question. It will take some more studying to find
what works best. In June last year we went through the two
introductory verses and there was some discussion on 'suttahita.m'
which I wasn't sure about myself. At the time the commentary was
unknown to me even though I had it all the time. Now that we have a
portion of it to help us, I thought it would be well-worth going over
the verses again in much greater detail as the commentary gives a lot
of useful linguistic explanations. In my first translation of
'suttahita.m' I took it as 'useful in the Discourses' and then shortly
after I changed it to 'set into suttas' which agrees with your 'placed
in suttas'. But now that we have the commentarial explanation showing
that it agrees more with my initial 'useful in the Discourses':

hito ti anuruupa.m pavattati, suttassa hito suttahito (sandhikappo),
ta.m suttahita.m, pi.takattayaanukuula.m. (note: there is an error I
made in the text posted to the group: -anukula.m should
read -anukuula.m.)

sutta = tipi.taka (and not the grammatical suttas). hito = anuruupa.m
= anukuula.m. Although in the PED all share the meaning of 'suitable',
I think later on we should examine '-hita' in more detail to determine
what is the best meaning out of several in the context given.

> 2) subuddhu.m: I took this as an infinitive (< bujjhati to realize,
> to understand) with prefixed 'su'='well', "to understand well". PED
> said that 'su' can be prefixed to 'some verb forms'. Is the
> infinitive normally one of them?

I don't know. It doesn't strike me as being out of the ordinary
though. "To understand well" is exactly the way I take it. Instead of
'subuddhu.m' the Sinhalese and Indian reading is 'suboddhu.m' which
makes me curious as to whether both forms accord with the grammatical
rules or only just one of them.

> 3) -vara: I translated 'choice' as in 'a choice steak', meaning 'of
> the best sort'. Seems okay?

That's an excellent choice!

> In the commentary, there is an interesting nirutti (etymological
> explanation) of the word uttama.m: uddhato tamo yena so uttamo,'that
> which removes darkness is ultimate.' Perhaps this is obvious to
> everyone but did you notice the pun? ud(dhato) tamo > udtamo >uttamo
?

I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out.

> I find these punning etymologies charming and interesting. They are
> meant to be edifying of course, and perhaps they also function as
> mnemonics, since it's easier to remember things if you make patterns
> of association. Of course in this case it's linguistically
> indefensible. Uttamo is composed of the prefix ut- plus -tamo, the
> superlative suffix litterally 'uppermost'.

I hadn't thought of them as punning etymologies before, which is an
interesting way to look at them I know some would call them
fanciful etymologies. There is an informative explanation of this kind
of etymology in Lily de Silva's introduction (p. lxviii) to the Tika
on the Digha Nikaya (PTS) which I will quote on another occasion.

> 4) I was wondering if the commentator should have written
_uddhata.m_
> tamo yena so uttamo. 'Tamo' = skrt 'tamas' which is neuter but the
> commentator seems to be treating it as a masculine -a stem word. Is
> this a mistake, or is there a viable new form 'tamo' (m) -a stem?

I think it is possible that 'tamo' might be taken as a masculine as
our commentator has it. Apte's Sanskrit dictionary gives a
masculine form 'tama.h' (darkness). We'd have to find other instances
in Pali of such noun with the -o (-as) stem being used in this way to
build up some support. At this stage I'm not prepared to say that the
commentator made a mistake here.

> 5) When was this commentary written? I have the idea it's a later
> commentary, so we're talking about an adult who consciously learned
> Pali as a second language, right? So a grammar mistake like in
> question 4, might be possible, unlike with more canonical texts,
> where unique forms are raw data, coming as they presumably do from
> something more like 'native speakers'.

The CPD has the 17th cent. but the library info on Tiwari's ed. has
the 16th cent., so I'd say 16th-17th cent. A.D. I think the
commentator, Mahaavijitaavii, is most likely to have learnt Pali as a
second language and to have become knowledgeable enough to write a
commentary on Kaccayana. To me studying his commentary is like
studying with the master himself. The DPPN has him listed as
Vijitaavii and says that he was a Burmese author belonging to
Vijitapura (Panyaa) who wrote the Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa on the
Sandhikappa, and the Vaacakopadesa. I have some detailed bibliographic
information on the Va.n.nanaa published in Colombo, 1905 (498 pages).
I'm so shocked to learn that this big commentary covers only the first
51 suttas!!

> In the verse, I took ga.nam uttama.m as simply referring to the
> Sangha, since the invocation seems to start out by honouring the
> three Jewels. There the commentary gives another punning etymology:
> 'ga.nitabbo sankhyaatabbo ti ga.no' 'To-be reckoned, to be counted,
> is ga.no'. This raises a couple of questions.

I'll leave the two questions for another time. My study is still on
se.t.tha and it may be awhile before I can post some notes on it as
I've been busy lately responding to posts like yours and other list
business. I'd like very much to do a detailed study of all the
words in the verses as explained in the commentary. I know this will
take a long time but the important thing is that we will still be
learning a great deal about Pali. And we can bring in any of
Kaccayana's suttas or material from other grammars to help explain
things better.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
786
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:18am
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Thanks for the answers. I'd like to say now, as a kind of blanket 
statement, that anything I don't respond to should be understood as 
'read with gratefulness and pleasure'. It's impossible to respond to 
everything (apart from the fact that the number of posts would 
snowball to infinity). Similarly, I'm happy for whatever responses I 
get, but don't expect any. That's how e-mail forums seem to work.

> suttassa hito suttahito (sandhikappo),
>ta.m suttahita.m,

Yes, this sounds better. I'd also go with the commentary here. My 
first guess would be that that way in which knowledge of the rules 
of sandhi would be beneficial to the suttas would be that it would 
help preserve them from corruption. Since copying manuscripts is a 
way of gaining merit, it can happen that basically illiterate people 
make copies with disastrous results. The more grammar that scribes 
understand, the less likely they are to mutilate the fine points (one 
would hope), and the more likely they are to notice and correct their 
own errors. Further, the more people who are able to read the 
suttas,the more they can be put into practice and kept alive and 
relevant. I wonder if there is a connection here to the attitude 
which culminated in Panini's detailed phonetic analysis of Sanskrit; 
its explicit goal was to protect Vedic from linguistic change (which 
was viewed as corruption rather than development).

> Instead of
>'subuddhu.m' the Sinhalese and Indian reading is 'suboddhu.m' which
>makes me curious as to whether both forms accord with the grammatical
>rules or only just one of them.

Here's Fahs' entry for the infinitive of the root 'budh':

bujjhitum buddhum -bodhitum -bodhum boddhum

I'm not sure whether he has culled that list from the literature, or 
is providing entries from one of the grammars, but I suspect the 
former.

>There is an informative explanation of this kind
>of etymology in Lily de Silva's introduction (p. lxviii) to the Tika
>on the Digha Nikaya (PTS) which I will quote on another occasion.


Thanks! I just returned that book to the library without having read 
the introduction! (lazy me). I'll try to remember to look at it next 
time I'm there.

A work on this subject which could be of interest is Eivind Kahrs' 
_Indian Semantic Analysis_ 1998, which treats these sorts of niruktis 
and discusses broader philosophical questions and rhetorical 
strategies. It's not a work on Pali, but might still be interesting 
to people on this list.

>
>> 4) I was wondering if the commentator should have written
>_uddhata.m_
>> tamo yena so uttamo. 'Tamo' = skrt 'tamas' which is neuter but the
>> commentator seems to be treating it as a masculine -a stem word. Is
>> this a mistake, or is there a viable new form 'tamo' (m) -a stem?
>
>I think it is possible that 'tamo' might be taken as a masculine as
>our commentator has it. Apte's Sanskrit dictionary gives a
>masculine form 'tama.h' (darkness).

Where exactly? I couldn't find that in Apte, or MW, but I only spent 
a couple of minutes searching. I did find a masculine, tamasa.h, but 
the only masculine of tamas (as a consonant stem) that I found was as 
an epithet of Rahu.

>I'd like very much to do a detailed study of all the
>words in the verses as explained in the commentary. I know this will
>take a long time but the important thing is that we will still be
>learning a great deal about Pali. And we can bring in any of
>Kaccayana's suttas or material from other grammars to help explain
>things better.

I agree that even if we just study a single word in depth, it could 
lead to further questions, which lead to further questions and we'd 
finally end up learning all sorts of things about the language. 
Wherever this goes is fine by me. I just send in questions or other 
responses when I have time. My hope is that there will be lots of 
aside 'chat' about methods, editions, where to find books, favorite 
dictionaries, good restaurants in various cities, you know, the 
works! I was also very happy to see how exactly you had transcribed 
from what I believe is Burmese characters? Just getting that 
late-commentary extract was exciting! I printed it out and started 
writing all over it.

best regards,

/Rett
 
 
787
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:59am
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Amara" <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > I have given you the book title by supaphan =palivyakhan 500 baht
> > from mahamakut.in this book last page ,she did give the published year
> > for this book-nyaasa.Did you go and but it from mahamaku?
> > >
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> A report on my book quest so far,
> 
> In the above book the explanations are in Thai and not Paali,
> according to Num, who is lending me his copy which is 'as thick as a
> phone book', and which he is not using although he is taking some Pali
> courses at Wat Mahathat currently, despite his very busy schedule. [He
> leaves for somewhere upcountry tomorrow as well!] He has kindly
> offered to find out more about the Wat Ta Ma Oh publications because
> his teacher was also a student there, and only recently returned from
> Lampang where he attended the Abbot's birthday celebrations. The
> Wat's Nyaasa was published in 1952, according to the last page in
> Supaphan's bibliography to her own massive book. I think there may be
> some copies available in Bangkok, Num thinks he might be able to find
> one, and also said it's probably in Burmese print, he's not sure if
> the explanations are in Burmese, but he will find out more for us. 
> 
> I was unable to talk to my friend at Wat Bowon today, but according to
> the list he sent me the grammar books are as you said, mainly with
> Thai explanations. I wonder what languages the courses you mentioned: 
> 
> 'Mahachulalongkornrajvidyalaya University may be another place to look
> as I saw on their website that they offer the following course:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> << Course Descriptions
> 
> 000 173 Comparative Study of Pali Grammar I 2 (2-0-4)
> 
> A comparative study of Pali Grammar in three texts, namely; Kaccayana,
> Moggallana and Saddaniti by comparing with Sutta, Vutti, instance in
> Sondhikanda (combination portion), Namakanda (noun portion),
> Akhayatakanda (conjugation of verbs) and Kibbidhakanda. >>'
> 
> are taught in, will call them tomorrow and report further,
> 
> Amara


Hi Jim, everyone,

This is the final report on the matter; the above classes are not
conducted in Paali, I'm sorry to say. 

This leaves the Nyaasa, which Num will get you if there are any
available. According to him it may be in Burmese, so TK, you might be
able to help us there. I will ask him to write when he has found a
copy of the book, or at least found out what language the explanations
are in. 

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
[788 deleted -- duplicate of 789]
 
789
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:17am
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, rett <rett@t...> wrote:
> Thanks for the answers. I'd like to say now, as a kind of blanket 
> statement, that anything I don't respond to should be understood as 
> 'read with gratefulness and pleasure'. It's impossible to respond to 
> everything (apart from the fact that the number of posts would 
> snowball to infinity). Similarly, I'm happy for whatever responses I 
> get, but don't expect any. That's how e-mail forums seem to work.
> 

Thanks for this,

I just have a beginner's question about a minor detail in your
translation, [which I won't expect you to explain =^_^=] but which I
wonder about:

Is there any reason you translate, in the first sentence,

se.t.tha.m ***tiloka***-mahita.m abhivandiya agga.m,

(The) best world-honoured having saluted topmost

as just 'world'? I have studied the dhamma for some time but am
probably at the very bottom of this list concerning knowledge of Paali
as a language,

Amara

[790 deleted -- duplicate of 787] 
 
791
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 0:06pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Amara,

>
>Is there any reason you translate, in the first sentence,
>
>se.t.tha.m ***tiloka***-mahita.m abhivandiya agga.m,
>
>(The) best world-honoured having saluted topmost
>
>as just 'world'?


My mistake. You're right, it should be something like 
'three-fold-world-system' or 'three worlds', or 'triple world'. Maybe 
'universe'. Anyhow, it's an important difference, thanks!

/Rett
 
 
792
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:29pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Dear Amara,

> A report on my book quest so far,
>
> In the above book the explanations are in Thai and not Paali,
> according to Num, who is lending me his copy which is 'as thick as a
> phone book', and which he is not using although he is taking some
Pali
> courses at Wat Mahathat currently, despite his very busy schedule.
[He
> leaves for somewhere upcountry tomorrow as well!] He has kindly
> offered to find out more about the Wat Ta Ma Oh publications because
> his teacher was also a student there, and only recently returned
from
> Lampang where he attended the Abbot's birthday celebrations. The
> Wat's Nyaasa was published in 1952, according to the last page in
> Supaphan's bibliography to her own massive book. I think there may
be
> some copies available in Bangkok, Num thinks he might be able to
find
> one, and also said it's probably in Burmese print, he's not sure if
> the explanations are in Burmese, but he will find out more for us.

Thank you for the updates. It's great that Num, who is also one of our
members, can help us despite his busy schedule. If the Nyaasa is in
Burmese print, that is quite fine with me as I can read Pali in that
script. A printed book would be the ideal, but if not, a photocopy
will be fine. It's possible that there could be a copy of the book in
a library in Bangkok from which a photocopy could be made instead of
having to photocopy the one at Wat Ta Ma Oh.

Do you think you could provide full bibliographic details of
Supaphan's book? That is: title, author, publisher, date and place
published, number of pages.

> I was unable to talk to my friend at Wat Bowon today, but according
to
> the list he sent me the grammar books are as you said, mainly with
> Thai explanations. I wonder what languages the courses you
mentioned:

[...]

> are taught in, will call them tomorrow and report further,
>
> Amara

In response to your subsequent message:

> This is the final report on the matter; the above classes are not
> conducted in Paali, I'm sorry to say.

That doesn't surprise me. I was assuming that this was a course
offered at Mahachulalongkorn University for English speakers. I was
thinking that since they offer such a course they may sell old Pali
grammatical texts in their bookstore.

> This leaves the Nyaasa, which Num will get you if there are any
> available. According to him it may be in Burmese, so TK, you might
be
> able to help us there. I will ask him to write when he has found a
> copy of the book, or at least found out what language the
explanations
> are in.

I've already replied to this earlier in this message, so won't
say anymore here.

Thank you for your great help, much appreciated!

Best wishes,
Jim

793
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Rett,

> Thanks for the answers. I'd like to say now, as a kind of blanket
> statement, that anything I don't respond to should be understood as
> 'read with gratefulness and pleasure'. It's impossible to respond to
> everything (apart from the fact that the number of posts would
> snowball to infinity). Similarly, I'm happy for whatever responses I
> get, but don't expect any. That's how e-mail forums seem to work.

I will try my best to respond to messages on this list but sometimes
it may take longer. I'd like to get back to some of your earlier
questions later on when we take up the words in more detail. I need to
study the root of ga.na before I try to answer your questions
concerning that word. I'm far from having mastered the language and
quite often I will have to do some studying before I can answer a
question.

> > suttassa hito suttahito (sandhikappo),
> >ta.m suttahita.m,
>
> Yes, this sounds better. I'd also go with the commentary here. My
> first guess would be that that way in which knowledge of the rules
> of sandhi would be beneficial to the suttas would be that it would
> help preserve them from corruption. Since copying manuscripts is a
> way of gaining merit, it can happen that basically illiterate people
> make copies with disastrous results. The more grammar that scribes
> understand, the less likely they are to mutilate the fine points
(one
> would hope), and the more likely they are to notice and correct
their
> own errors. Further, the more people who are able to read the
> suttas,the more they can be put into practice and kept alive and
> relevant. I wonder if there is a connection here to the attitude
> which culminated in Panini's detailed phonetic analysis of Sanskrit;
> its explicit goal was to protect Vedic from linguistic change (which
> was viewed as corruption rather than development).

The study of Panini's grammar is also of great interest to me in the
comparison of Pali words and grammars with their Sanskrit
counterparts. Much of the ambiguity of Pali clears up in a comparison
with the Sanskrit, I find. I use S.C. Vasu's A.s.taadhyaayii of
Paa.nini, a large two volume edition and translation of about 4000
sutras into English with copious notes. I'm using Vasu's approach as a
model for studying the suttas of Kaccayana. Right from the beginning
he applies the Paninian rules in his explanatory notes. The work is
lacking in the kinds of tables and indices one sees in Smith's
Saddaniti (except for the Dhatupatha index). I went through a lot of
trouble preparing a useful list of references to linguistic items in
the Paninian sutras such as the k.rt and taddhita affixes that we
might find useful in our discussions of similar items in Kaccayana and
the other works. These grammars are vital in preserving the language
of the original texts.

> Here's Fahs' entry for the infinitive of the root 'budh':
>
> bujjhitum buddhum -bodhitum -bodhum boddhum
>
> I'm not sure whether he has culled that list from the literature, or
> is providing entries from one of the grammars, but I suspect the
> former.

Thanks for the entry. That's a good book to have.

> >There is an informative explanation of this kind
> >of etymology in Lily de Silva's introduction (p. lxviii) to the
Tika
> >on the Digha Nikaya (PTS) which I will quote on another occasion.
>
>
> Thanks! I just returned that book to the library without having read
> the introduction! (lazy me). I'll try to remember to look at it next
> time I'm there.
>
> A work on this subject which could be of interest is Eivind Kahrs'
> _Indian Semantic Analysis_ 1998, which treats these sorts of
niruktis
> and discusses broader philosophical questions and rhetorical
> strategies. It's not a work on Pali, but might still be interesting
> to people on this list.

I'd be interested in reading a book like that. The same (?) author has
written an interesting article _Exploring the Saddaniiti_ in JPTS XVII
which takes a hard look at the kaaraka suttas.

> >I think it is possible that 'tamo' might be taken as a masculine as
> >our commentator has it. Apte's Sanskrit dictionary gives a
> >masculine form 'tama.h' (darkness).
>
> Where exactly? I couldn't find that in Apte, or MW, but I only spent
> a couple of minutes searching. I did find a masculine, tamasa.h, but
> the only masculine of tamas (as a consonant stem) that I found was
as
> an epithet of Rahu.

You'll have to look again. It's under the entry 'tamam' (Apte, p.762,
col. 1) and 'tama' (MW, p.438, col. 1). The latter has: "1. Tama, m.
(...) = tamas" but not in the sense of 'darkness' apparently except
for the neuter. However, Apte has "3. darkness" under 'tama.h' in the
entry cited.

> >I'd like very much to do a detailed study of all the
> >words in the verses as explained in the commentary. I know this
will
> >take a long time but the important thing is that we will still be
> >learning a great deal about Pali. And we can bring in any of
> >Kaccayana's suttas or material from other grammars to help explain
> >things better.
>
> I agree that even if we just study a single word in depth, it could
> lead to further questions, which lead to further questions and we'd
> finally end up learning all sorts of things about the language.
> Wherever this goes is fine by me. I just send in questions or other
> responses when I have time. My hope is that there will be lots of
> aside 'chat' about methods, editions, where to find books, favorite
> dictionaries, good restaurants in various cities, you know, the
> works! I was also very happy to see how exactly you had transcribed
> from what I believe is Burmese characters? Just getting that
> late-commentary extract was exciting! I printed it out and started
> writing all over it.

Thanks for this! I'm sure there will be plenty of aside 'chat' to
liven things up around here in our discussions of what many would
normally find a very boring subject, grammar. I transcribed (or
transliterated) the commentary extract from the Devanagari script of
what I think is Tiwari's edn. and Hindi translation of the
Kaccaayanavyaakara.na. I could have done the same if it had been in
Burmese script. I checked over the whole thing only once after I did
the transcription so it's possible there still could be more typos.

One area I find quite interesting is the study of Pali and Sanskrit
roots (dhaatus) which I'd like to introduce into our study of words.
Most words have a root or element which serves as a meaningful kernel
of a word to which prefixes, affixes, and other items are added. I
have two etext lists of the roots with their meanings for the
Saddaniti and Panini's Dhatupatha but they need some more editing
before I make them available to the group. There are also two other
Pali lists of roots in Andersen and Smith's little book now available
from PTS. It isn't always easy to determine the exact root of a word
and quite often you have to choose from several identical ones. In the
second etymology of se.t.tha it took me a while to narrow down the
root from a list of 10 (is, iis, es) and in doing so I discovered some
illuminating connections.

Jim
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
    

 
794
From: Nantawat Sitdhiraksa <sinsk@mahidol.ac.th> 
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:08am
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Dear Jim and everyone,

Hi from a quiet member. I checked with my teacher, Ven. Pranom. He has a nyaasa. It's in Burmese. I think I am able to a copy for you.

My Pali book, by Dr.Supapan, is now with K.Amara. 

Let me know if I can do anything to help.

Num

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
795
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 11:00am
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Dear Num,

That would be great if you could get a copy of the Nyaasa for me. Just
make sure that it has the full Pali text in the Burmese script. Your
teacher will know. I'll reimburse you for all the costs of getting a
copy, packaging, and air mail postage. I won't be able to send you a
cheque until late March when I'm able to get to the bank. I'll send
you my address if you can get a copy to send, just let me know. I have
never seen the Nyaasa before and it's really something to look forward
to. If I do get a copy I'll start transcribing portions of it for
study here so we can all benefit from it. Amara has told us that you
have loaned her Dr. Supapan's book which would be a good one to
consult. Thank you for your help, much appreciated.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim and everyone,
>
> Hi from a quiet member. I checked with my teacher, Ven. Pranom. He
has a nyaasa. It's in Burmese. I think I am able to a copy for you.
>
> My Pali book, by Dr.Supapan, is now with K.Amara.
>
> Let me know if I can do anything to help.
>
> Num
 
 
796
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 0:17pm
Subject: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    > Do you think you could provide full bibliographic details of
> Supaphan's book? That is: title, author, publisher, date and place
> published, number of pages.


Hi,

The book is called 'waiiyaahgornbaalii' [Paali veyyakara.na]
as per Gaccayanavyaakarana Moggallanavyaakarana Sadddaniitipakarana

By Assistant Professor DR. Subhapan Na Bangchang

Published by the Mahamakut Rajavidyalai Foundation Under Royal Patronage

BE 2538

869 pages

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
797
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 6:18pm
Subject: Re: Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

 
    Hi Amara,

Thanks for the book information. I searched the U.S. Library of
Congress using your info and found the following:

LC Control Number: 96947248
Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Brief Description: Suphaphan Na Bang Chang.
Waiyakon Bali tamno Katchayanawayakon, Mokkhanlanawayakon
Satthanitipakon / Suphaphan Na Bang Chang.
Phim khrang rk.
Krung Thep Maha Nakhon : Munnithi Mahamakutratchawitthayalai,
2534 [1991]
10, 869 p. ; 28 cm.
CALL NUMBER: PK1017 .S87 1991 Thai
Copy 1
-- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150)

The Thai language looks like a more difficult language to learn than
Pali.

Best wishes,
Jim

> > Do you think you could provide full bibliographic details of
> > Supaphan's book? That is: title, author, publisher, date and place
> > published, number of pages.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> The book is called 'waiiyaahgornbaalii' [Paali veyyakara.na]
> as per Gaccayanavyaakarana Moggallanavyaakarana Sadddaniitipakarana
>
> By Assistant Professor DR. Subhapan Na Bangchang
>
> Published by the Mahamakut Rajavidyalai Foundation Under Royal
Patronage
>
> BE 2538
>
> 869 pages
>
> Anumodana with your studies,
>
> Amara
 
 
798
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 30, 2004 0:32pm
Subject: the namakkaara-.tiikaa on se.t.tho

 
    Hi everyone,

It's going to take me a little more time to study the derivations of
the word 'se.t.tho' after finding a very good commentary on its six
derivations in the Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11 (on the CSCD disk). This
text is a .tiikaa on the Namakkaarapaa.li (consisting of 33 salutary
verses on the Buddha). Neither text is listed in CPD, Geiger, nor DPPN
and I don't see the name of the author at the end of the .tiikaa but
there is a date: 2489 B.E. (1945), and it appears to be a Myanmarese
work as the country Mrammara.t.tha is mentioned. I'd appreciate it if
anyone could give me the name of the author(s) of these texts. The
gloss on 'se.t.tho' in the Kacc-va.n.n gives only two derivations
which are also included in this Tika. I reproduce the text below in
case any of you would like to study it while I do, but it is in an
etymological (nirutti) style so it may be too difficult for some of
you to follow at this point. I or someone else will explain it to you
later.

From the Namakkaara.tiikaa, p. 11:
se.t.thanti gu.namahantattaa pasatthatara.m. so hi pasatthaana.m
visesena pasatthoti se.t.thoti vuccati. pasatthapada.m, visesataddhite
i.t.thapaccayo. pasatthasaddassa so, pasatthaana.m
paccekabuddhaariyasaavakaadiina.m siilasamaadhipa~n~naadigu.nehi
visesena pasatthoti attho. atha vaa sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede
dhamme esati gavesati esi.m gavesinti vaa se.t.tho, buddho.
supubbo-esa gavesane ta. tassa ra.t.tho. susaddo sundarattho. santehi
sappurisehi esitabbo gavesitabboti vaa se.t.tho. santasadduupapado isa
gavesane ta, santasaddassa so, ikaarasse, tassa.t.tho. santehi
sappurisehi icchiyati kantiyatiiti vaa se.t.tho. santasaddopapado isu
icchaakantiisu ta. atha vaa santaana.m sappurisaana.m hitasukha.m
icchatiiti se.t.tho, buddho. kattusaadhanoya.m. sundare
satipa.t.thaanaadibhede dhamme eseti buddhetiiti vaa se.t.tho.
hetukattusaadhanoya.m. supubba-esadhaatu buddhiya.m ta. ta.m
se.t.tha.m.

I repeat the same text divided up into the six derivations:

1) se.t.thanti gu.namahantattaa pasatthatara.m. so hi pasatthaana.m
visesena pasatthoti se.t.thoti vuccati. pasatthapada.m, visesataddhite
i.t.thapaccayo. pasatthasaddassa so, pasatthaana.m
paccekabuddhaariyasaavakaadiina.m siilasamaadhipa~n~naadigu.nehi
visesena pasatthoti attho.

2) atha vaa sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede dhamme esati gavesati
esi.m gavesinti vaa se.t.tho, buddho. supubbo-esa gavesane ta. tassa
ra.t.tho. susaddo sundarattho.

3) santehi sappurisehi esitabbo gavesitabboti vaa se.t.tho.
santasadduupapado isa gavesane ta, santasaddassa so, ikaarasse,
tassa.t.tho.

4) santehi sappurisehi icchiyati kantiyatiiti vaa se.t.tho.
santasaddopapado isu icchaakantiisu ta.

5) atha vaa santaana.m sappurisaana.m hitasukha.m icchatiiti se.t.tho,
buddho. kattusaadhanoya.m.

6) sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede dhamme eseti buddhetiiti vaa
se.t.tho. hetukattusaadhanoya.m. supubba-esadhaatu buddhiya.m ta. ta.m
se.t.tha.m.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
799
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:22pm
Subject: se.t.tha.m -- derivation 1

 
    This part only covers the first of six ways of deriving 'se.t.tha.m'
which is the way the old grammars explain it. The second way is found
in the Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa (ca 1600 A.D.) and the remaining four are
found in the .tiikaa (1945 A.D.?) to the Namakkaarapaa.li. I'm
covering the first derivation here as it is long enough as it is. I've
introduced three suttas from Kaccayana.

se.t.tha.m -- from Kc introductory verse 1

se.t.tho -- pasattho visesenaa ti. -- Kacc-va.n.n

"The Best One" -- the one praised by distinction.

se.t.thanti gu.namahantattaa pasatthatara.m. so hi pasatthaana.m
visesena pasatthoti se.t.thoti vuccati. pasatthapada.m, visesataddhite
i.t.thapaccayo. pasatthasaddassa so, pasatthaana.m
paccekabuddhaariyasaavakaadiina.m siilasamaadhipa~n~naadigu.nehi
visesena pasatthoti attho.

"se.t.tha.m" -- the most praised one owing to the magnitude of (his)
qualities. Because he is praised by distinction among those who are
praised, he is called 'se.t.tho' (the Best One). The word 'pasattha'
(praised), the affix 'i.t.tha' as a taddhita affix (in the sense) of
distinction, 'sa' in the room of 'pasattha'. The meaning is: among the
paccekabuddhas, noble disciples and so on with their qualities of
morality, concentration, understanding and so on who are praised, he
is praised by distinction.

Comments:

"se.t.tha.m" (the Best One) is a masculine singular noun (se.t.tho) in
the accusative case. Syntactically, it is the object or patient of the
absolutive or gerund 'abhivandiya' (having saluted or venerated). It
is composed of the substitute (aadesa) 'sa' + the visesa-taddhita
affix 'i.t.tha' and the second (accusative) case singular termination
'a.m'.

The following rule deals with the 'sa' before 'i.t.tha' as well as
'iya':

Kc 263 (Sii 265). pasatthassa so ca.
sabbasseva pasatthasaddassa so aadeso hoti, jaadeso ca iya i.t.tha
iccetesu paccayesu. seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.

In the room of the whole word 'pasattha' there is the substitute 'sa'
and 'ja' before the affixes 'iya' and 'i.t.tha'.

The Sinhalese version of Kc (Sii 265) differs in several respects (see
my msg no. 684) among which the following is included: "sabbe ime
pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena pasatthoti se.t.tho." (These/they are
all praised, of these/them this one is praised by distinction.) I'm
not quite sure how 'visesena' should be understood. If we replace 'by
distinction' with 'by comparison', I think the meaning is made
clearer. The Pali term for the affixes of comparison is
visesa-taddhita of which there are five. The following sutta should
help:

Kc 363 (365). visese taratamisikiyi.t.thaa.
visesatthe tara tama isika iya i.t.thaiccete paccayaa honti.
sabbe ime paapaa, ayamimesa.m visesena paapo ti paapataro. eva.m
paapatamo, paapisiko, paapiyo, paapi.t.tho.

Kc 363 (365). In (the sense of) distinction: tara, tama, isika, iya,
i.t.tha. In the sense of distinction or differentiation, there are
these affixes: tara tama isika iya i.t.tha. eg. paapataro -- they are
all bad, of them this one by distinction is the worst. Similarly:
paapatamo, paapisiko, paapiyo, paapi.t.tho.

The next topic to consider is the coalescence of 'sa' + 'i.t.tha' into
'se.t.tha'. How does one explain the 'e'? In the .tiikaa to the
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa on se.t.tha (and seyya) there is this gloss:

iyi.t.thesu pasatthassa, vu.d.dhassa ca so, seyyo, se.t.tho
ca,``kvacaasava.n.na.m lutte''ti isse. -- Abh-.t 695 [note: I think
'vu.d.dhassa' (aged, old) is a mistake as it only applies to the
substitue 'ja' (jeyya, je.t.tha) according to Kc]

The expression -- ``kvacaasava.n.na.m lutte''ti isse. -- is of
importance here because it points to a sandhi rule explaining the 'e'
in place of 'i' (isse = issa e).

Kc 14. kvacaasava.n.na.m lutte.
saro kho paro pubbasare lutte kvaci asava.n.na.m pappoti.
sa"nkhya.m nopeti vedaguu, bandhusseva samaagamo.
kvaciiti kasmaa? yassindriyaani, tathuupama.m dhammavara.m adesayi.

Kc 14. In some cases the non-homorganic vowel when (the antecedent
vowel is) elided. The subsequent vowel when the antecedent vowel is
elided attains to a non-homorganic vowel in some cases.

Comment: There are three pairs of homorganic vowels: ava.n,no (short
and long a) and similarly for iva.n.no & uva.n.no for short and long i
and u. a & aa are homorganic to each other but not to i or u. The
non-homorganic vowel (asava.n.na.m) is one of the remaining two:
either e or o. The rule is stating that as in the case of sa +
i.t.tha, the 'a' of sa is elided while the 'i' is changed into 'e'.
The examples given in the rule are:

sa"nkhya.m nopeti vedaguu -- nopeti = na upeti. (the u is changed to
o); bandhusseva samaagamo -- bandhusseva = bandhussa iva

The rule does not apply in all cases, eg.:

yassindriyaani = yassa indriyaani (the initial i did not change to e)
tathuupama.m = tathaa upama.m (the u did not change to o)

Best wishes,
Jim
 
800
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 8:50pm
Subject: se.t.tha.m -- derivation 2

 
    Se.t.tha.m: Derivation Two

1st text: sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede dhamme esati gavesatii ti
se.t.tho. -- Kacc-va.n.n

Translation: He searches out, investigates the beautiful dhammas in
the category of satipa.t.thaana and so on, thus 'se.t.tho'.

2nd text: atha vaa sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede dhamme esati
gavesati esi.m gavesinti vaa se.t.tho, buddho. supubbo-esa gavesane
ta. tassa ra.t.tho. susaddo sundarattho. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11

Translation: Alternatively, he searches out, investigates the
beautiful dhammas in the category of satipa.t.thaana and so on; a
searcher, an investigator; thus 'se.t.tho', the Buddha. The root 'esa'
in the sense of 'tracking' preceded by the prefix 'su', 'ta' (the past
participle affix). In the room of 'ta' there is '.t.tha'. 'su' has the
sense of 'sundara' (beautiful).

Comments:

1) "esa gavesane" -- this is the sort of expression one finds in a
standard list of roots (dhaatus) with their meanings. This particular
one is not to be found in any of the three Pali root lists I have,
suggesting that it is from another list. Four works on Pali roots are:

1. Dhaatupaa.tha (abbr. Dhaatup) of the Moggallaana school by an
unknown author (639 roots). 2. Kaccaayana-dhaatuma~njuusaa (Dhaatum)
by Siilava.msa (884 roots). 3. Dhaatumaalaa which is the second volume
of the Saddaniiti by Aggava.msa (1687 roots). 4. Dhaatvatthadiipanii
which I have never seen. Perhaps the "esa gavesane" comes from that
one.

The closest match found in the first three works is "esa gavesa
maggane" -- Dhaatup 297-8. The Dhaatumaalaa has a "gavesa maggane"
without the "esa" -- Sadd 1653 [see note below] but being in the
curaadi class, the 3rd pers. sing. verb is 'gaveseti' and if there had
been an "esa" the verb-form would be "eseti". The corresponding root
in the Saddaniiti is "isa pariyesane" -- Sadd 993 (cp also isa
pariyese Dhaatum 433; both are unknown in Panini's list). In two
commentaries one finds: pariyesatii ti maggati Th-a II 131; maggati
gavesati As 162,28. This shows the close connection in meaning of the
roots: isa, esa, gavesa, magga (cp magga gavesane Sadd 1323; Panini X
302 maarga anve.sa.ne).

[note: To avoid confusing Sadd 1653 with a sutta number, I thought a
convenient way to refer to locations in the Saddaniiti would be to use
Sadd 1653 (for instance) when referring to a specific root in the
Dhaatumaalaa, Sd 34 when referring to a sutta in the Suttamaalaa, and
either Sadd p.64 or Sadd I 64 when referring to a page no., references
are to H. Smith's edn.]

2) In Cone's dictionary there are 5 main entries for the verb "esati"
but here we only need concern ourselves with the first one in the
meaning of: "seeks, seeks to obtain, searches for, probes." I find the
last one "probes" most fitting in the context of a se.t.tha or Buddha.
Out of the "probes" we can add some more meanings such as:
investigates (from L. vestigare -- to track), inquires into, studies
carefully and from the meaning of "maggane" we can think of tracking
or tracing dhammas. I chose 'searches out' in my translation after
recently coming across it in E. Hardy's introduction to the
Nettippakara.na, p. ix (to search out the evidence).

3) One of the reasons for the "esati gavesati" is to point to the root
esa or isa, the gavesati helps to indicate which one of the several
similar looking roots applies. The active present form of the verbs
also tell us that 'se.t.tha' is a pure or simple agent-noun
(suddhakattu) in this derivation.

4) The past participle affix 'ta'. The 'a' of 'esa' is an indicatory
letter (anubandha) which is elided giving us 'es' to which 'ta' is
added. Now, a rule from Kc applies:

Kc 573 (575). saadi santa puccha bhanja hansaadiihi .t.tho.
sakaaranta puccha bhanja hansa iccevamaadiihi dhaatuuhi tapaccayassa
sahaadibya~njanena .t.thaadeso hoti .thaane.
tu.t.tho, ahinaa da.t.tho naro, mayaa pu.t.tho, bha.t.tho,
pabha.t.tho, ha.t.tho, paha.t.tho, yi.t.tho. evama~n~nepi dhaatavo
sabbattha yojetabbaa.

The part of the rule that applies in our case is that the substitute
".t.tha" (.t.thaadeso) is in the place (.thaane) of the affix 'ta'
together with the first consonant 's' (sta) of roots ending in the
letter 's' (santa = sa-kaaranta). es + ta > esta > e.t.tha (by Kc
573).

5) The prefix 'su'. The is one of the prefixes (upasaggas) in a
standard list of 20 found at Sadd p.880. Five meanings of this prefix
are given at p.885: sobha.na (beautiful, splendid), sukha (pleasant,
easy), su.t.thu (well), sammaa (complete, proper, perfect), and
samiddhi (success). Compare also Abh 1179: su sobhane sukhe
sammaa-bhusa-su.t.thu-samiddhisu. Although there is no 'sundara' in
the 2 lists of meanings it's possible that it could be a synonym of
sobhana, but on the other hand 'sammaa' is also possible. In
sammaadi.t.thi, for instance, the 'sammaa' is explained at Pa.tis-a I
95: pasatthaa vaa sundaraa vaa di.t.thii ti sammaadi.t.thi. Also worth
noting is the explanation of the 'sa.m' in sambojjha"nga on p. 95:
pasattho sundaro ca bojjha"ngo sambojjha"ngo. It's very interesting to
see the intertwined connections of pasattha, sundara, and magga in our
word se.t.tha so far. su + e.t.tha > se.t.tha with the elision of the
'u' of 'su' which brings in yet another Kc rule which we will leave
for another time as this message is already too long.

6) One last comment. We could also come up with the same result if we
took the root isa (for i.t.tha) instead of esa using the same Kc 573
rule plus the Kc 14 explained in my last message. I also wonder if
'sa' can take the place of the prefix sa.m as this also has the
meaning of sammaa (which includes pasattha & sundara). I just haven't
found a rule to support a sa from sa.m yet.

Best wishes,
Jim

801
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 6:34am
Subject: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    Hi, Jim,

Thank you for the detailed explanations and careful study of the Kc,
it is really wonderful to follow. 

I also have something to report that you will really like, I think: I
have found a real Paali treasure trove for you: publications from the
largest collection of Paali texts in the world, according to the
director of the program, a vigourous 87 year old gentleman who is
himself a treasure trove of knowledge of the 'recent' history of Thai
Buddhism. His organization has printed 85 of the ancient texts, some
of which took thirty years to transcribe and translate. The work is
ongoing, although the last time they printed anything was in BE 2525
[22 years ago,] when they printed 85 canons, including the Saddavisesa
Series: the Saddaniti Padamala, Suttamala and Dhatumala, [explanation
in the original Paali] I have ordered the Saddavisesa Series for you,
the price is only a little over 600 bhts for the set of three,
probably a small set [I bought a set of 8 leatherbound volumes of Thai
and English Dictionary altogether about five times the size of Num's
book for about 5000bhts. And this was to replace my ancient PTES
Dict. that is falling apart which is just one mediun sized phone
book!!!]. The lady has checked the details about the shipping to
Canada, the set weighs around 4 kgs and the shipping by sea will cost
1000 bhts. including packaging, [by air it would cost around 2500, and
by sea it will take only two weeks] meanwhile please send me your
address on or off list.

Another publication is exactly what you wanted also, [the BF people
showed me a copy of the first volume, a modern, beautifully finished
book] but I was told I have to go to Nakorn Pathom to fetch the entire
sets from the local publishers. It's three massive volumes of the
Kaccayana entirely in Paali, about twice the size of Num's Supaphan
edition each, this set was edited by Pra Maha Nimitr Dhammasaaro and
is for free distribution [although any donation is welcome]. I'll see
if some excellent friends in NP can bring them to us soon, [as I would
like them for the WFB library also,] last time they brought us the
books on the history of the Pra Pathom Chedi from which I scanned the
photos uploaded in the photo section. Otherwise we will go fetch them
and mail them off to you, you can send your donations to the
publishers later if you want. 

In the meantime as soon as I get your address I will fax it to the
lady at the BF and she will send the BF books to you right away, [we
will be picking up about a hundred volumes of different canons
[donations from the BF to the WFB library] soon and I will ask the
chauffeur to take them the money at that time. If you wish you can
reimburse me after I've sent off both sets.

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
802
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 4:46pm
Subject: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    Hi, Amara,

> Thank you for the detailed explanations and careful study of the Kc,
> it is really wonderful to follow.

I hope it's not too detailed or pedantic for your taste. I've been
having visions of everyone fleeing to the hills because of it! I find
this type of study helps to break down the conceptual world of
language. And there can be a lot of dhamma in just one little word.

> I also have something to report that you will really like, I think:
I
> have found a real Paali treasure trove for you: publications from
the
> largest collection of Paali texts in the world, according to the
> director of the program, a vigourous 87 year old gentleman who is
> himself a treasure trove of knowledge of the 'recent' history of
Thai
> Buddhism. His organization has printed 85 of the ancient texts,
some
> of which took thirty years to transcribe and translate. The work is
> ongoing, although the last time they printed anything was in BE 2525
> [22 years ago,] when they printed 85 canons, including the
Saddavisesa
> Series: the Saddaniti Padamala, Suttamala and Dhatumala,
[explanation
> in the original Paali] I have ordered the Saddavisesa Series for
you,
> the price is only a little over 600 bhts for the set of three,
> probably a small set [I bought a set of 8 leatherbound volumes of
Thai
> and English Dictionary altogether about five times the size of Num's
> book for about 5000bhts. And this was to replace my ancient PTES
> Dict. that is falling apart which is just one mediun sized phone
> book!!!]. The lady has checked the details about the shipping to
> Canada, the set weighs around 4 kgs and the shipping by sea will
cost
> 1000 bhts. including packaging, [by air it would cost around 2500,
and
> by sea it will take only two weeks] meanwhile please send me your
> address on or off list.

Thanks for the great news! I've heard of this foundation before. Their
Saddaniiti volumes are what I'd definitely want to have in my library.
I have sent you a message offlist giving you my address and about
reimburement. I'd prefer that the books be sent by sea which I think
might take about 3 months. I'm interested in the name Saddavisesa for
the series as 'visesa' is a word that I often have trouble
understanding as I did in my recent explanation of the first
derivation of se.t.tho. I think the sadda part is used like the sadda
(meaning language) in Saddaniiti but how do you understand the meaning
of the 'visesa' part in the combination with sadda?

> Another publication is exactly what you wanted also, [the BF people
> showed me a copy of the first volume, a modern, beautifully finished
> book] but I was told I have to go to Nakorn Pathom to fetch the
entire
> sets from the local publishers. It's three massive volumes of the
> Kaccayana entirely in Paali, about twice the size of Num's Supaphan
> edition each, this set was edited by Pra Maha Nimitr Dhammasaaro and
> is for free distribution [although any donation is welcome]. I'll
see
> if some excellent friends in NP can bring them to us soon, [as I
would
> like them for the WFB library also,] last time they brought us the
> books on the history of the Pra Pathom Chedi from which I scanned
the
> photos uploaded in the photo section. Otherwise we will go fetch
them
> and mail them off to you, you can send your donations to the
> publishers later if you want.

I'm very interested in having this Kaccayana set as well. I find the
size of it rather puzzling though as my Burmese copy of the
Kaccaayanavyaakara.na only takes up 411 pages. I'd be interested in
finding out more about the contents of this set, whether it contains
other works on Kaccayana as well. If I get this set I'd certainly want
to send the publisher a donation.

> In the meantime as soon as I get your address I will fax it to the
> lady at the BF and she will send the BF books to you right away, [we
> will be picking up about a hundred volumes of different canons
> [donations from the BF to the WFB library] soon and I will ask the
> chauffeur to take them the money at that time. If you wish you can
> reimburse me after I've sent off both sets.

I have provided you with more details in my offlist message. BTW, I
just noticed that your dhammastudy.com server is down.

Thank you for your great help which I much appreciate!

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
803
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 10:13pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tha.m -- derivation 2

 
    Some additional notes for derivations 1 & 2:

1) Starting with my next posting on the derivations, I will use the
word 'se.t.tho' instead of 'se.t.tha.m' in the subject line as the
'se.t.tha.m' gives too much the impression that it's a neuter word
instead of the masculine word 'se.t.tho' we're studying.

2) Even though the approach may seem quite detailed and slow-paced, we
could very well cover a lot of Pali by the time we reach the end of
the second verse. I have introduced two more suttas below from
Kaccayana bringing the total to 6 and there is yet more to cover on
this word. It seems like a good idea to bring in as many suttas as
possible in our study so that we get many glimpses of the grammar
throughout in the early stages. The suttas are taken up briefly and
not fully dealt with which will happen later on when we arrive at them
in serial order. I should tell you that I'm not really all that
familiar with the grammars of Kaccayana, Aggavamsa, and hardly at all
of Moggallana. I may be more familiar with the Saddaniti but only as
an authoritative reference work since I've only studied bits of it
here and there. The suttas I bring in here are ones that I'm already
aware of or have been able to find and thought may be help in the
explanations. There is no attempt to be complete and errors and my own
misunderstandings about some of the suttas can happen. Since 6 suttas
have been brought in so far it seems possible that we could touch on
10% or more of the 675 Kaccayana suttas by the time we reach the end
of the verses.

3) In the explanation of the first derivation, I've messed it up by
not knowing how best to translate the word 'visesena' as none of the
dictionary meanings I've seen so far seem to fit.

sabbe ime paapaa, ayamimesa.m visesena paapo ti paapataro. -- from Kc
363
My earlier translation of this line is: "paapataro -- they are all
bad, of them this one by distinction is the worst." The 'worst' here
is a mistranslation of 'paapo' (bad). Originally, I had thought of
'visesena' as an adverbial 'in particular', 'particularly', or
'especially' until I saw the noun 'visese' in Kc 363. It still remains
a problem for me which may not be solved until I get around to an
in-depth analysis of the word. I find the adverbial use makes the most
sense: out of them all (who are bad) this one is particularly bad.

4) I noticed that in the second derivation, the commentator used
'ra.t.tha' as a substitute for 'ta' (tassa ra.t.tho) which doesn't
seem right to me. The 'r' is indicatory and dropped leaving 'a.t.tha'.
I can only find this affix in use for the root 'dis' as in
'da.t.thabba'. I've been questioning the validity of some of his
derivations which don't seem to conform to Kaccayana or Aggava.msa.
However, the derivations are interesting and worth investigating even
if it's only to test their validity. He also uses 'ta' uninflected
which I think should properly be written 'to' (nom. sing.).

5) The fifth rule I'd like to bring in concerns the elision of the
first vowel when two vowels come together (sa + e.t.tha > se.t.tha).
This rule along with Kc 14 applies to the first derivation as well (sa
+ i.t.tha > se.t.tha).

12. saraa sare lopa.m.
saraa kho sare pare lopa.m papponti.
yassindriyaani samatha"ngataani; no heta.m bhante; sametaayasmaa
sa"nghena.

Translation:
12. Vowels before a vowel, elision.
Vowels obtain elision before a subsequent vowel.
yassindriyaani = yassa indriyaani; heta.m = hi eta.m; sametaayasmaa =
sametu aayasmaa.

6) The next rule concerns the function of the past participle affix
'ta' which also applies to the familiar 'buddha' which is derived from
budh + ta.

557. budhagamaaditthe kattari.
budhagamuiccevamaadiihi dhaatuuhi tadatthe gamyamaane tapaccayo hoti
kattari sabbakaale.
sabbe sa"nkhataasa"nkhate dhamme bujjhati abujjhi bujjhissatiiti
buddho, sara.na"ngato, samatha"ngato, amata"ngato, jaanaati ajaani
jaanissatiiti ~naato, iccevamaadi.

There are two words (tadatthe gamyamaane) I don't yet understand so I
really can't translate in full. The sutta tells me that words like
buddho and se.t.tho derived with the 'ta' affix are to be taken as
agent-nouns in the three times rather than just the past time as is
typical of past participles. A good illustration is in the line:

sabbe sa"nkhataasa"nkhate dhamme bujjhati abujjhi bujjhissatiiti
buddho -- He understands, he has understood, he will understand all
conditioned and unconditioned dhammas.

So the interpretation of 'se.t.tho' could go like this: he seeks out,
he has sought out, and he will seek out beautiful dhammas in the
category of satipa.t.thaana and so on.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
804
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 6, 2004 3:13am
Subject: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Hi, Amara,
> 
> > Thank you for the detailed explanations and careful study of the Kc,
> > it is really wonderful to follow.
> 
> I hope it's not too detailed or pedantic for your taste. I've been
> having visions of everyone fleeing to the hills because of it! 


Hi, Jim,

On the contrary I found it very clear and extremely interesting, the
details are exactly what I need at the moment, personally, and all the
possible interpretations of the words. I need more time to go over
them again a few more times, though. Thank you again and anumodana
with your great viriya. 


> I find
> this type of study helps to break down the conceptual world of
> language. And there can be a lot of dhamma in just one little word.
> 

Yes, such excellent reminders!


> > I also have something to report that you will really like, I think:
> I
> > have found a real Paali treasure trove for you: publications from
> the
> > largest collection of Paali texts in the world, according to the
> > director of the program, a vigourous 87 year old gentleman who is
> > himself a treasure trove of knowledge of the 'recent' history of
> Thai
> > Buddhism. His organization has printed 85 of the ancient texts,
> some
> > of which took thirty years to transcribe and translate. The work is
> > ongoing, although the last time they printed anything was in BE 2525
> > [22 years ago,] when they printed 85 canons, including the
> Saddavisesa
> > Series: the Saddaniti Padamala, Suttamala and Dhatumala,
> [explanation
> > in the original Paali] I have ordered the Saddavisesa Series for
> you,
> > the price is only a little over 600 bhts for the set of three,
> > probably a small set [I bought a set of 8 leatherbound volumes of
> Thai
> > and English Dictionary altogether about five times the size of Num's
> > book for about 5000bhts. And this was to replace my ancient PTES
> > Dict. that is falling apart which is just one mediun sized phone
> > book!!!]. The lady has checked the details about the shipping to
> > Canada, the set weighs around 4 kgs and the shipping by sea will
> cost
> > 1000 bhts. including packaging, [by air it would cost around 2500,
> and
> > by sea it will take only two weeks] meanwhile please send me your
> > address on or off list.
> 
> Thanks for the great news! I've heard of this foundation before. Their
> Saddaniiti volumes are what I'd definitely want to have in my library.
> I have sent you a message offlist giving you my address and about
> reimburement. I'd prefer that the books be sent by sea which I think
> might take about 3 months. 


I've checked with the lady again and she said she often mails them by
sea, and it takes 2 weeks. Let's give it three, since I am sending
you the complete list of their publications, in case you wanted to
order something else, since the shipping cost starts at about 400/kg,
but the more weight the less the average, which is why your 4 kgs come
to about 1000 including packaging. 

For comparison, my 8 volumes of dictionary comes to 10 kgs, according
to my maid, and cost 5000 bhts/set, for some reason, coming to around
600 bhts/vol, the cost of your entire 3 book set! I have no idea how
this works, but in your case the shipping is going to cost more than
the books themselves. Which is why I am sending you the list in case
you would like to order more and lower the shipping cost average
further by ordering all the books you want from them at once.


> I'm interested in the name Saddavisesa for
> the series as 'visesa' is a word that I often have trouble
> understanding as I did in my recent explanation of the first
> derivation of se.t.tho. I think the sadda part is used like the sadda
> (meaning language) in Saddaniiti but how do you understand the meaning
> of the 'visesa' part in the combination with sadda?
> 

Visesa has been incorporated in the Thai usage, but the meaning might
have shifted slightly, according to my So Sethaputra, 'wisehd' means:

vi. adj. - superb (chance), splendid, topping, tops; magic, magical
(power)

My newly acquired BF Paali - Thai - English vol. 7 says [all questions
beginning with ? mine]:

Visesa [fr. vi+sis(? the s's here have special phonetic symbols) cp.
Epic Sk. visesa] 
1. (mark of) distinction, characteristic, discrimination A I.267; S
IV.210;] II.p; Miln 29; VvA 58, 131; PvA 50,60. - 
2. elegance, splendoour, excellence Jv.151; DhA 1.399. 
3. distinction, peculiar merit or advantage, eminence, excellence,
extraordinary state D I.233 (so for vivesa all through?)[? I wonder if
there is some mistake here]. A III.349 (opp. haana); J O/435; VvA
157 [Pu~n~na]; PvA 71(id.), 147 (sukha). -
4. difference, variety SnA 477, 504; VvA 37,81,135 (pl. = items). -
5. specific idea (in meditation), attainment J. vi.69: see & cp.
Brethren 24.n.i; 110.-Cp.pati.-aadhigama specific attainment A iv.22;
M ii.96; Nett 92; Miln 412; DhA i.100. [Cp. BSk. visesadhigama Civy
174]. -gaamin reaching distinction, gaining merit A ii.349 sq.; S
v.108. -gu reaching a higher state of attainment J vi.573. Paccaya
ground for distinction of progress (spiritually) D iii.272 sq.;
277,282; Nett 77; Vism ii 88 (abstr. bhaagiyataa)


Together with Saddha wouldn't it mean something like 'detailed
analysis of words'? [Although as a book title, 'The Wonder of Words'
sounds more magically appealing to me.]


> > Another publication is exactly what you wanted also, [the BF people
> > showed me a copy of the first volume, a modern, beautifully finished
> > book] but I was told I have to go to Nakorn Pathom to fetch the
> entire
> > sets from the local publishers. It's three massive volumes of the
> > Kaccayana entirely in Paali, about twice the size of Num's Supaphan
> > edition each, this set was edited by Pra Maha Nimitr Dhammasaaro and
> > is for free distribution [although any donation is welcome]. I'll
> see
> > if some excellent friends in NP can bring them to us soon, [as I
> would
> > like them for the WFB library also,] last time they brought us the
> > books on the history of the Pra Pathom Chedi from which I scanned
> the
> > photos uploaded in the photo section. Otherwise we will go fetch
> them
> > and mail them off to you, you can send your donations to the
> > publishers later if you want.
> 
> I'm very interested in having this Kaccayana set as well. I find the
> size of it rather puzzling though as my Burmese copy of the
> Kaccaayanavyaakara.na only takes up 411 pages. I'd be interested in
> finding out more about the contents of this set, whether it contains
> other works on Kaccayana as well. 


I think it does, and our friends at NP are bringing the sets to the
WFB soon. If you send me the list of books you want we might add them
to the lot I had ordered, and we might even ask them to send this set
together with the rest. 

I'm sorry I have another busy afternoon/evening coming up, but will
try and send you the BF list as soon as I can, if possible before I
leave. 


> If I get this set I'd certainly want
> to send the publisher a donation.
> 
> > In the meantime as soon as I get your address I will fax it to the
> > lady at the BF and she will send the BF books to you right away, [we
> > will be picking up about a hundred volumes of different canons
> > [donations from the BF to the WFB library] soon and I will ask the
> > chauffeur to take them the money at that time. If you wish you can
> > reimburse me after I've sent off both sets.
> 
> I have provided you with more details in my offlist message. BTW, I
> just noticed that your dhammastudy.com server is down.

I seem to be able to get through OK, perhaps they have fixed it by
now, thank you for the informtation. I typed out the list for you;
please see below:

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara

LIST OF BUDDHIST CANONS OF THE BHUMIBALOBHIKKHU FOUNDATION EDITION
PUBLISHED ON THE OCCASION OF THE rATTANAKOSIN BICENTENNIAL. 2523, B.E.

1. PATISAMBHIDAMAGGA SERIES
[1] PATISAMBHIDAMAGGA PART I 150
[2] PATISAMBHIDAMAGGA PART II 150
[3] SADDHAMAPAKASINI PART I 150 
[4] SADDHAMAPAKASINI PART II 150
[5] SADDHAMAPAKASINI PART III 150
[6] SADDHAMAPAKASINI PART IV 150
[7] GANTHIPATISAMBHIDAMAGGA PART I 225
[8] GANTHIPATISAMBHIDAMAGGA PART II 225
[9] SADDHAMAPAKASINI ANAOABASATU 150
= 1,500

[ALL SERIES IN PALI-THAI WILL BE LEFT OUT]

3. DHAMMASANGANI SERIES
[23] ABHIDHAMMAPITAKADHAMMASANGANI 200
[24] ATTHASALINI ATTHAKATHA PART I 175
[25] ATTHASALINI ATTHAKATHA PART II 175
[26] DHAMMASANGANIMULATIKA 150
[27] DHAMMASANGANIANUTIKA 200
= 1,050

5. SADDAVISESA SERIES
[33] SADDANITI PADAMALA 200
[34] SADDANITI SUTTAMALA 250
[33] SADDANITI DHATUMALA 200
= 650

6. VINAYA SERIES
[36] VIMATIVINODANITIKA PART I 200
[37] VIMATIVINODANITIKA PART II 200
[38] VAJIRABUDDHITIKA PART I 200
[39] VAJIRABUDDHITIKA PART II 175
= 775

7. THERAGATHA SERIES
[40] THERAGATHA ATTHAKATHA PART I 200
[41] THERAGATHA ATTHAKATHA PART II 200
[42] THERAGATHA ATTHAKATHA PART III 200
[43] THERAGATHA ATTHAKATHA PART IV 225
= 825

8. NETTIPAKARANAM SERIES
[44] NETTIPAKARANAM 150
[45] NETTI - ATTHAKATHA 200
[46] NETTI - TIKA AND NETTIVIBHAVINI 300
= 650

9. BUDDHAVAMSA AND CARIYAPITAKA SERIES
[47] BUDDHAVAMSA AND CARIYA PITAKA 150
[48] MADHURATTHAVILASINI BUDDHAVAMSA ATTHAKATHA 200
[49] PARAMATTHA DIPANI CARIYAPITAKA ATTHAKATHA 295
= 645

11. PATIMOKKHA SERIES
[53] PATIMOKKHA AND KANKHAVITARANI ATTHAKATHA 250
[54] KANKHAVITARANIPURANATIKA AND ABHINAVATIKA 300
= 550

12. VISUDDHIMAGGA SERIES
[55] VISUDDHIMAGGA PART I 225
[56] VISUDDHIMAGGA PART II 225
[57] VISUDDHIMAGGA PART III 250
[64] VISUDDHIMAGGA MAHATIKA PART I 250
[65] VISUDDHIMAGGA MAHATIKA PART II 225
[66] VISUDDHIMAGGA MAHATIKA PART III 350
[67] VISUDDHIMAGGA JULATIKA PART I 200
[68] VISUDDHIMAGGA JULATIKA PART II 150
[67] VISUDDHIMAGGA JULATIKA PART III 200

13. PAKINNAKA [PENDING ASSIGHNENT TO ITS SERIES]
[78] PETAKOPASESAPAKARANAM 150
[79] LINATTHAPASASANA TIKADIGHANIKAYA PATIKAVAGGA 175
[80] THAMMAPADAVIVARANAM 225
[81] ABHIDHAMMAVATARO 160
[83] SANNIGAVUBIDABUATTHAYOJANA 265


[I think the exchange rate at present is about 40bhts/1USD]

You can send me your order list off list if you wish, I will forward
it together with your address to the BF for you with pleasure,

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
805
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Feb 6, 2004 6:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    Hi Amara,

> > reimburement. I'd prefer that the books be sent by sea which I
think
> > might take about 3 months.
>
>
> I've checked with the lady again and she said she often mails them
by
> sea, and it takes 2 weeks. Let's give it three, since I am sending
> you the complete list of their publications, in case you wanted to
> order something else, since the shipping cost starts at about
400/kg,
> but the more weight the less the average, which is why your 4 kgs
come
> to about 1000 including packaging.
>
> For comparison, my 8 volumes of dictionary comes to 10 kgs,
according
> to my maid, and cost 5000 bhts/set, for some reason, coming to
around
> 600 bhts/vol, the cost of your entire 3 book set! I have no idea
how
> this works, but in your case the shipping is going to cost more than
> the books themselves. Which is why I am sending you the list in
case
> you would like to order more and lower the shipping cost average
> further by ordering all the books you want from them at once.

I still find it hard to believe that it will only take 2 weeks or so
to come from Bangkok by sea to Canada. When I order books from PTS in
the UK (maybe a quarter to a third of the distance) it normally takes
about a month by sea. Would the high shipping cost be due to it being
sent by private courier rather than through the post office? Thank you
for posting the BBF list of titles which is truly amazing as it
contains a lot of rare books not published by PTS and I can see that I
will want to add many other titles to my order. So don't have any
books sent to me until I decide on which ones I want included. I think
it might be better if they charge everything directly to my credit
card as I think the total bill is going to be high.

> > I'm interested in the name Saddavisesa for
> > the series as 'visesa' is a word that I often have trouble
> > understanding as I did in my recent explanation of the first
> > derivation of se.t.tho. I think the sadda part is used like the
sadda
> > (meaning language) in Saddaniiti but how do you understand the
meaning
> > of the 'visesa' part in the combination with sadda?
> >
>
> Visesa has been incorporated in the Thai usage, but the meaning
might
> have shifted slightly, according to my So Sethaputra, 'wisehd'
means:
>
> vi. adj. - superb (chance), splendid, topping, tops; magic, magical
> (power)
>
> My newly acquired BF Paali - Thai - English vol. 7 says [all
questions
> beginning with ? mine]:
>
> Visesa [fr. vi+sis(? the s's here have special phonetic symbols) cp.

These refer to two Sanskrit s's not found in Pali. They can be
represented in the Velthuis scheme by "s (s with the acute mark above)
and .s (underdot s), and so vi+"si.s.

> Epic Sk. visesa]
> 1. (mark of) distinction, characteristic, discrimination A I.267; S
> IV.210;] II.p; Miln 29; VvA 58, 131; PvA 50,60. -
> 2. elegance, splendoour, excellence Jv.151; DhA 1.399.
> 3. distinction, peculiar merit or advantage, eminence, excellence,
> extraordinary state D I.233 (so for vivesa all through?)[? I wonder
if
> there is some mistake here].

I agree. I think 'vivesa' is a typo for 'visesa'.

A III.349 (opp. haana); J O/435; VvA
> 157 [Pu~n~na]; PvA 71(id.), 147 (sukha). -
> 4. difference, variety SnA 477, 504; VvA 37,81,135 (pl. = items). -
> 5. specific idea (in meditation), attainment J. vi.69: see & cp.
> Brethren 24.n.i; 110.-Cp.pati.-aadhigama specific attainment A
iv.22;
> M ii.96; Nett 92; Miln 412; DhA i.100. [Cp. BSk. visesadhigama Civy
> 174]. -gaamin reaching distinction, gaining merit A ii.349 sq.; S
> v.108. -gu reaching a higher state of attainment J vi.573. Paccaya
> ground for distinction of progress (spiritually) D iii.272 sq.;
> 277,282; Nett 77; Vism ii 88 (abstr. bhaagiyataa)

This is also what the PTS's PED entry has as well. So your dictionary
took it right from there.

> Together with Saddha wouldn't it mean something like 'detailed
> analysis of words'? [Although as a book title, 'The Wonder of
Words'
> sounds more magically appealing to me.]

Interesting but not sure about 'analysis', though 'detail' could be a
translation of 'visesa' (differentia). I looked up Apte's Sanskrit
dictionary and found an entry for /"sabdavi"se.sa.h/ with the
definition: a variety of sound. That doesn't seem applicable in our
case. My guess so far is that 'visesa' refers to a category and with
sadda (also speech or sound) it is specifying a class of works
relating to the Pali language. 'Visesa' is derived from the prefix
'vi' + the root 'sis' + a primary affix 'a'. Visesa is given as one of
the many meanings of the prefix 'vi' and you will also see its past
partciple form 'visi.t.tha' used to explain the 'abhi' of 'abhidhamma'
and the 'vi' of 'vi~n~naa.na' (discriminating awareness). The
Saddaniti, p.567 gives the meaning of 'atisaya' (superiority) to
'vi'+'sis' which is interesting as Panini uses ati"saya to explain the
usage of the affixes of comparison whereas Kc and Sd use 'visesa'.

.....

> > Kaccaayanavyaakara.na only takes up 411 pages. I'd be interested
in
> > finding out more about the contents of this set, whether it
contains
> > other works on Kaccayana as well.
>
>
> I think it does, and our friends at NP are bringing the sets to the
> WFB soon. If you send me the list of books you want we might add
them
> to the lot I had ordered, and we might even ask them to send this
set
> together with the rest.

That would be good if the BBF could ship out the Kaccayana set along
with my order of books from them. If you see the Kaccayana set could
you perhaps check to see exactly what's in them. I'm geting curious.

> I'm sorry I have another busy afternoon/evening coming up, but will
> try and send you the BF list as soon as I can, if possible before I
> leave.
.....

> I seem to be able to get through OK, perhaps they have fixed it by
> now, thank you for the informtation. I typed out the list for you;
> please see below:

I think the problem was quite short-lived and might have been just
part of a larger internet problem. Thank you for taking the trouble of
typing out this very useful list. There's one item I'd like you to
clarify:

> [9] SADDHAMAPAKASINI ANAOABASATU 150

What is this ANAOABASATU? It doesn't look like a proper Pali spelling.
Could you check?

Thanks for your great help! Remember not to have any books sent to me
until I've sent you a complete list of the books I want from the
foundation.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
806
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 6, 2004 10:01pm
Subject: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Hi Amara,
> 
> > > reimbusement. I'd prefer that the books be sent by sea which I
> think
> > > might take about 3 months.
> >
> >
> > I've checked with the lady again and she said she often mails them
> by
> > sea, and it takes 2 weeks. Let's give it three, since I am sending
> > you the complete list of their publications, in case you wanted to
> > order something else, since the shipping cost starts at about
> 400/kg,
> > but the more weight the less the average, which is why your 4 kgs
> come
> > to about 1000 including packaging.
> >
> > For comparison, my 8 volumes of dictionary comes to 10 kgs,
> according
> > to my maid, and cost 5000 bhts/set, for some reason, coming to
> around
> > 600 bhts/vol, the cost of your entire 3 book set! I have no idea
> how
> > this works, but in your case the shipping is going to cost more than
> > the books themselves. Which is why I am sending you the list in
> case
> > you would like to order more and lower the shipping cost average
> > further by ordering all the books you want from them at once.
> 
> I still find it hard to believe that it will only take 2 weeks or so
> to come from Bangkok by sea to Canada. 
> When I order books from PTS in
> the UK (maybe a quarter to a third of the distance) it normally takes
> about a month by sea. Would the high shipping cost be due to it being
> sent by private courier rather than through the post office? Thank you
> for posting the BBF list of titles which is truly amazing as it
> contains a lot of rare books not published by PTS and I can see that I
> will want to add many other titles to my order. So don't have any
> books sent to me until I decide on which ones I want included. I think
> it might be better if they charge everything directly to my credit
> card as I think the total bill is going to be high.
> 

Hi Jim,

Perhaps it would be best for you to contact the lady directly,

Khun Thavorn, 
Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation,
Office in the Wat Srakesa Precinet,
Chakrabardibong Rd.
Bangkok 10100

I will tell her to expect your mail, together with the rest of the
order, the shipping, as well as about your method of payment. [I
really don't think they have the credit card system, though, they
don't even use computers!!! Perhaps you could mail them a check or a
cashier's check. 


> > > I'm interested in the name Saddavisesa for
> > > the series as 'visesa' is a word that I often have trouble
> > > understanding as I did in my recent explanation of the first
> > > derivation of se.t.tho. I think the sadda part is used like the
> sadda
> > > (meaning language) in Saddaniiti but how do you understand the
> meaning
> > > of the 'visesa' part in the combination with sadda?
> > >
> >
> > Visesa has been incorporated in the Thai usage, but the meaning
> might
> > have shifted slightly, according to my So Sethaputra, 'wisehd'
> means:
> >
> > vi. adj. - superb (chance), splendid, topping, tops; magic, magical
> > (power)
> >
> > My newly acquired BF Paali - Thai - English vol. 7 says [all
> questions
> > beginning with ? mine]:
> >
> > Visesa [fr. vi+sis(? the s's here have special phonetic symbols) cp.
> 
> These refer to two Sanskrit s's not found in Pali. They can be
> represented in the Velthuis scheme by "s (s with the acute mark above)
> and .s (underdot s), and so vi+"si.s.
> 
> > Epic Sk. visesa]
> > 1. (mark of) distinction, characteristic, discrimination A I.267; S
> > IV.210;] II.p; Miln 29; VvA 58, 131; PvA 50,60. -
> > 2. elegance, splendoour, excellence Jv.151; DhA 1.399.
> > 3. distinction, peculiar merit or advantage, eminence, excellence,
> > extraordinary state D I.233 (so for vivesa all through?)[? I wonder
> if
> > there is some mistake here].
> 
> I agree. I think 'vivesa' is a typo for 'visesa'.
> 
> A III.349 (opp. haana); J O/435; VvA
> > 157 [Pu~n~na]; PvA 71(id.), 147 (sukha). -
> > 4. difference, variety SnA 477, 504; VvA 37,81,135 (pl. = items). -
> > 5. specific idea (in meditation), attainment J. vi.69: see & cp.
> > Brethren 24.n.i; 110.-Cp.pati.-aadhigama specific attainment A
> iv.22;
> > M ii.96; Nett 92; Miln 412; DhA i.100. [Cp. BSk. visesadhigama Civy
> > 174]. -gaamin reaching distinction, gaining merit A ii.349 sq.; S
> > v.108. -gu reaching a higher state of attainment J vi.573. Paccaya
> > ground for distinction of progress (spiritually) D iii.272 sq.;
> > 277,282; Nett 77; Vism ii 88 (abstr. bhaagiyataa)
> 
> This is also what the PTS's PED entry has as well. So your dictionary
> took it right from there.
> 

I think they mentioned this. This is probably why the dictionary was
so much more expensive than the rest of their publications, because
they are probably paying for the use of PTS material. For their own
Thai translations there was probably no cost whatever, like for the
rest of the books, 'just the cost of the paper' as the octagenarian
gentleman told me. And to think they donate their books to
educational institutions, who probably just leave them on the shelves.
I think the ones they are donating to the WFB library will be put to
good use, though.


> > Together with Saddha wouldn't it mean something like 'detailed
> > analysis of words'? [Although as a book title, 'The Wonder of
> Words'
> > sounds more magically appealing to me.]
> 
> Interesting but not sure about 'analysis', though 'detail' could be a
> translation of 'visesa' (differentia). 


Just a minor point, but practically wouldn't you have to analyse
something in order to differentiate them, Jim?


>I looked up Apte's Sanskrit
> dictionary and found an entry for /"sabdavi"se.sa.h/ with the
> definition: a variety of sound. That doesn't seem applicable in our
> case. My guess so far is that 'visesa' refers to a category and with
> sadda (also speech or sound) it is specifying a class of works
> relating to the Pali language. 'Visesa' is derived from the prefix
> 'vi' + the root 'sis' + a primary affix 'a'. Visesa is given as one of
> the many meanings of the prefix 'vi' and you will also see its past
> partciple form 'visi.t.tha' used to explain the 'abhi' of 'abhidhamma'
> and the 'vi' of 'vi~n~naa.na' (discriminating awareness). The
> Saddaniti, p.567 gives the meaning of 'atisaya' (superiority) to
> 'vi'+'sis' which is interesting as Panini uses ati"saya to explain the
> usage of the affixes of comparison whereas Kc and Sd use 'visesa'.
> 
> .....
> 
> > > Kaccaayanavyaakara.na only takes up 411 pages. I'd be interested
> in
> > > finding out more about the contents of this set, whether it
> contains
> > > other works on Kaccayana as well.
> >
> >
> > I think it does, and our friends at NP are bringing the sets to the
> > WFB soon. If you send me the list of books you want we might add
> them
> > to the lot I had ordered, and we might even ask them to send this
> set
> > together with the rest.
> 
> That would be good if the BBF could ship out the Kaccayana set along
> with my order of books from them. If you see the Kaccayana set could
> you perhaps check to see exactly what's in them. I'm geting curious.
> 

I'll try to have them send it off with the rest, and try to remember
to note a few things for you. Unless you would prefer to wait a
little longer and discover them for yourself!


> > I'm sorry I have another busy afternoon/evening coming up, but will
> > try and send you the BF list as soon as I can, if possible before I
> > leave.
> .....
> 
> > I seem to be able to get through OK, perhaps they have fixed it by
> > now, thank you for the informtation. I typed out the list for you;
> > please see below:
> 
> I think the problem was quite short-lived and might have been just
> part of a larger internet problem. Thank you for taking the trouble of
> typing out this very useful list. There's one item I'd like you to
> clarify:
> 
> > [9] SADDHAMAPAKASINI ANAOABASATU 150
> 
> What is this ANAOABASATU? It doesn't look like a proper Pali spelling.
> Could you check?
> 

It's ANAPANASATI, sorry about that. [I am a slow typist especially
with all the Paali, which must be my excuse, plus the constant phone
calls while I was typing.]


> Thanks for your great help! Remember not to have any books sent to me
> until I've sent you a complete list of the books I want from the
> foundation.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


I've told the lady to hold everything and wait for your letter, which
you can also email me to fax to her, if you wish. Or send it to her
by surface mail, of course,

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
807
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Feb 7, 2004 5:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    Dear Amara,

> > This is also what the PTS's PED entry has as well. So your
dictionary
> > took it right from there.
> >
>
> I think they mentioned this. This is probably why the dictionary
was
> so much more expensive than the rest of their publications, because
> they are probably paying for the use of PTS material. For their own
> Thai translations there was probably no cost whatever, like for the
> rest of the books, 'just the cost of the paper' as the octagenarian
> gentleman told me. And to think they donate their books to
> educational institutions, who probably just leave them on the
shelves.
> I think the ones they are donating to the WFB library will be put
to
> good use, though.

I think the Foundation is doing some really good work and one I
wouldn't mind donating some money to. You're probably already aware of
this -- the PED is available online at the following url:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ Instead of typing out the
entire entry from your dictionary as you seem to have done, you could
save yourself time by copying and pasting it from the website as I
have done here:

Visesa (p. 641) [fr. vi+sis, cp. Epic Sk. visesa] 1. (mark of)
distinction, characteristic, discrimination A I.267; S IV.210; J II.9;
Miln 29; VvA 58, 131; PvA 50, 60. -- 2. elegance, splendour,
excellence J V.151; DhA I.399. -- 3. distinction, peculiar merit or
advantage, eminence, excellence, extraordinary state D I.233 (so for
vivesa all through?); A III.349 (opp. hana); J I.435; VvA 157
(punna); PvA 71 (id.), 147 (sukha). -- 4. difference, variety SnA
477, 504; VvA 2; PvA 37, 81, 135 (pl.= items). abl. visesato,
distinctively, altogether PvA 1, 259. -- 5. specific idea (in
meditation), attainment J VI.69: see & cp. Brethren 24, n. 1; 110. --
Cp. pati.
nn--adhigama specific attainment A IV.22; M II.96; Nett 92; Miln 412;
DhA I.100. [Cp. BSk. visesadhigama Divy 174]. --gamin reaching
distinction, gaining merit A II.185; III.349 sq.; S V.108. --gu
reaching a higher state or attainment J VI.573. --paccaya ground for
distinction VvA 20. --bhagiya participating in, or leading to
distinction or progress (spiritually) D III.272 sq., 277, 282; Nett
77; Vism 11, 88 (abstr. bhagiyata).

> > > Together with Saddha wouldn't it mean something like 'detailed
> > > analysis of words'? [Although as a book title, 'The Wonder of
> > Words'
> > > sounds more magically appealing to me.]
> >
> > Interesting but not sure about 'analysis', though 'detail' could
be a
> > translation of 'visesa' (differentia).
>
>
> Just a minor point, but practically wouldn't you have to analyse
> something in order to differentiate them, Jim?

Yes, I think that's probably true. Dhammapaala uses the term
'padavibaaga' (analysis of words) and interestingly enough he starts
out explaining the term as the differentiation or distinction of words
(padavibhaago ti padaana.m viseso -- Sv-p.t I 43). There's that
'visesa' word again!

> I'll try to have them send it off with the rest, and try to remember
> to note a few things for you. Unless you would prefer to wait a
> little longer and discover them for yourself!

> > What is this ANAOABASATU? It doesn't look like a proper Pali
spelling.
> > Could you check?
> >
>
> It's ANAPANASATI, sorry about that. [I am a slow typist especially
> with all the Paali, which must be my excuse, plus the constant phone
> calls while I was typing.]

Thanks for the correction, it's all clear now. I believe this book
contains just the Anapanassatikatha from the Pa.tis text along with
its corresponding commentary from Pa.tis-a.

> I've told the lady to hold everything and wait for your letter,
which
> you can also email me to fax to her, if you wish. Or send it to her
> by surface mail, of course,

We will get this all sorted out offlist. Thanks for telling us about
the Bimalobhikkhu Foundation and their wonderful treasure-trove of
Pali texts. The list of their books and the contact address that you
have provided will come in handy. When I make up a booklist of Pali
grammatical texts, I'll be sure to include them. It's great that you
have established a good connection with the Foundation.

Much appreciated,
Jim
 
 
808
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 7:47pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Rett,

I'm just following up on your post from Jan. 27:

Jim wrote:
> >There is an informative explanation of this kind
> >of etymology in Lily de Silva's introduction (p. lxviii) to the
Tika
> >on the Digha Nikaya (PTS) which I will quote on another occasion.

Rett wrote:
> Thanks! I just returned that book to the library without having read
> the introduction! (lazy me). I'll try to remember to look at it next
> time I'm there.

The occasion has come up for me to quote the passage from Dr. Lily de
Silva's introduction. This is part of the section on "Methods of
exegesis" -- an explanation of the six methods: sambandhato, padato,
padavibhaagato, atthato, anuyogato, & parihaarato. I'm quoting in full
the atthato (according to the meaning) part which I don't entirely
agree with by the way. She says "they have nothing to do with
philology or etymology" leaving me a little confused.

"Atthato. Correct interpretation of words and ideas is by far the most
important task of the commentaries, and several devices have been
evolved to handle this effectively. There is the method of giving
popular etymologies whereby words are infused with definite semantic
values, so that they only connote a qualified standard meaning when
used in Buddhist philosophy. Though Mrs. Rhys Davids calls them
fanciful etymologies they have nothing to do with philology or
etymology. They are a practical guide to the comprehension of the
exact meaning of words. With their help the listener can immediately
associate words with traditional interpretations and understand their
true import almost effortlessly. This device has also, to a certain
extent, helped the preservation of early interpretations against
inevitable semasiological changes during the course of time. Again,
words can have more than one meaning and the particular shade of
meaning required can only be judged by the context. Often in
elucidating the meaning of a word, several quotations are cited from
different parts of Canonical and non-Canonical literature which
illustrate its varying shades of meaning. Out of them is selected
whatever meaning is relevant to the passage in question. Similes and
metaphors comprise another resourceful device for explaining difficult
and abstract concepts. They are abundantly used in all strata of Pali
literature. Their novelty and originality often lend a refreshing
charm in addition to illustrating the intended meanings. Fables and
anecdotes form a popular medium for communicating abstruse
philosophicak concepts, specially to the uneducated masses. The
Dhammapada.t.thakathaa abounds in such anecdotes and is a good example
of this method of exegesis." -- Sv-p.t I lxviii.

The study of the methods of interpretation used in the commentaries is
quite an interesting one. I think there is a lot of good material like
this in the Netti and its commantaries. The last chapter of the
Saddaniiti is also helpful and there are similarly helpful passages
scattered throughout the various commentaries.

> A work on this subject which could be of interest is Eivind Kahrs'
> _Indian Semantic Analysis_ 1998, which treats these sorts of
niruktis
> and discusses broader philosophical questions and rhetorical
> strategies. It's not a work on Pali, but might still be interesting
> to people on this list.

I have ordered the book. I was thrilled when I saw _The "Nirvacana"
Tradition_ in the subtitle and knew right away that is a book for me
to study. Thanks again for the recommendation!

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
809
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 7:39am
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Jim,

Thanks for posting that interesting excerpt from de Silva. You mentioned:

>She says "they have nothing to do with
>philology or etymology" leaving me a little confused.


I wonder if maybe she's guarding against an objection that has often 
been raised that, as etymologies, these niruktis are often 
philologically indefensible. Because of this, scholars have often 
thrown out the baby with the bathwater and dismissed nirukti as 
'nonsense'. Instead she points out that they still can be interesting 
and important to study, since they, among other things, help people 
remember traditional interpretations of doctrine. In that respect I 
expect you'll enjoy E Kahrs's book. He avoids the extremes of being 
gullible/traditional on the one hand, or 
western/dismissive/know-it-all on the other. It's both appreciative 
and critical, which to me is a model worth emulating.

best regards,

/Rett
 
 
810
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:09pm
Subject: Re: Introductory verse and commentary

 
    Hi Rett,

> Thanks for posting that interesting excerpt from de Silva. You
mentioned:
>
> >She says "they have nothing to do with
> >philology or etymology" leaving me a little confused.
>
>
> I wonder if maybe she's guarding against an objection that has often
> been raised that, as etymologies, these niruktis are often
> philologically indefensible. Because of this, scholars have often
> thrown out the baby with the bathwater and dismissed nirukti as
> 'nonsense'. Instead she points out that they still can be
interesting
> and important to study, since they, among other things, help people
> remember traditional interpretations of doctrine. In that respect I
> expect you'll enjoy E Kahrs's book. He avoids the extremes of being
> gullible/traditional on the one hand, or
> western/dismissive/know-it-all on the other. It's both appreciative
> and critical, which to me is a model worth emulating.

That's an interesting point you raise which I'd like to discuss
further later on. I'm really looking forward to receiving Kahr's book
which should now be on its way. It was sort of strange how I came to
be ordering it just recently, like how you came by Senart's book. I
went to abebooks.com to find the book and the first book that came up
was at a good price of $27 usd for a used copy from a bookseller in
Rochester, NY which is just a crow's fly away from here. A new book is
fairly expensive at prices ranging from $40 to over $100 usd plus
shipping. I think my 1998 copy will be just as good as new. I just
hope it's not defective with missing pages.

There is a book available from Motilal Banarsidass that I'm also
interested in getting. It's _Paali-Mahaavyaakara.na_ by Jagdeesh
Kashyap Bhikshu, Motilal Banarsidas, Delhi 1963, 1985 priced at 10 uk
pounds for a paperback or 14 pds for a hardbound (mlbduk.com). I think
it's probably Kaccayana's grammar in the Devanagari script. Kashyap
was the general editor of the Indian edition of the Tipitaka back in
the late 50s/early 60s. I read an interesting passage in an
autobiography of the Englishman, Sangharakshita (founder of the FWBO),
about his experiences in studying Pali with the Ven. Kashyap in
Benares (I think). I remember from it that Kashyap had Kaccayana all
memorized and mastered. When I was searching for Kashyap on abebooks I
was shocked to find out the current prices of the volumes of this
Indian ed. of the Tipitaka (41 vols.) which I had bought complete
minus 1 volume back in the late 70s for about $40 usd including
shipping. The prices I saw for some of these volumes were like $83 for
just four of them plus shipping. Unbelievable!

There is yet another grammar that looks interesting, the Namamala that
Teng Kee had mentioned here earlier. I have located some info on the
book as follows:

Namamala or A work on Pali Grammar (in Sinhalese Script) by Subhuti,
Waskaduwe 22 cm, 24, c, 148, 346p, (Reprint Colombo 1876 edn.) 2001
ISBN 8120615573; available from: alltimebooks.com $12.07 and
asianeds.com Rs.495.

I found the prices at alltimebooks.com (New Delhi) were very good with
many books selling for $6 usd and there is quite a good selection of
Pali grammars and dictionaries. Just enter the keyword Pali which will
also bring up many books on Nepali.

I'm still studying the third derivation of se.t.tho, in particular,
'santehi sappurisehi' which I've been struggling with for the past few
days. I think the 'santehi' is from the root 'as' and, interestingly,
it seems that the 'sap' of sappurisa has nothing to do with the 'sat'
of Skt. satpuru.sa if the sat is understood to be from 'as'. Someitmes
erroneous etymological assumptions are made between the Pali and their
Sanskrit parallels and this may be one of them. Bodhisattva is another
one as I believe the Pali bodhisatta is related to Skt. bodhisakta.
Also 'suutra' only correponds to one of the six Pali etymologies of
'sutta'. I think this is one advantage that Pali has over Sanskrit --
in that Pali lends itself to more etymological possibilities because
of the ambiguity of the spelling and for this reason Pali is probably
a more difficult language to master.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
811
From: bhikkhu_pandita <bhikkhu_pandita@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:01am
Subject: on the authorship of namakkaara.tiikaa

 
    Hi!Jim and others
I have been silent for a while because I have been enquiring about 
the authorship of namakkaara.tiikaa. Yes, it was written by a senior 
monk of Burma. His title was Ven. Revataabhiva.masa and he was the 
first abbot of Nyaung Yan Pali University, Mo Gaung Monastic Complex, 
Mandalay, Myanmar (Burma). He was the chairman of the Sixth Buddhist 
Council held in Burma. But he passed away while the Sixth Buddhist 
Council was still in progress and was succeeded by another senior 
monk.
I have got even a phone number of that monastery if you wish for 
further information but I'm afraid you would have to search for an 
interpreter that can speak Burmese for the monks residing there spead 
little English.
with metta
Ven. Pandita
 
 
812
From: bhikkhu_pandita <bhikkhu_pandita@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:15am
Subject: the phone number of Nyaung Yan monastery

 
    Jim and others
I'm very sorry, for I've forgotten to give the phone-number of Nyaung 
Yan monastery, the place of the late author of namakkaara.tiikaa. It 
is as follows:

095-2-39703

Note: I hope you would know that (095)is the code of Myanmar; (2) is 
the code of Mandalay, the second capital of Myanmar and (39703) is 
the number of the monastery.

With metta
Ven. Pandita
 
 
813
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:36pm
Subject: Re: on the authorship of namakkaara.tiikaa

 
    Dear Ven. Pandita,

Thank-you for enquiring about the authorship of the Namakkaara.tiikaa
which is good to know. And you have even provided a phone number to
find out more too. I have a book entitled _Sangha and State in Burma_
by E. Michael Mendelson which has a lot of information about sayadaws
and the organizing of the Sixth Council. Although I don't see the name
Ven. Rewataabhiva.msa in the book I believe he is likely the same
individual referred to as the Nyaungyan Sayadaw. It says in the book
on p.285:

"Appointed rattaguru of the Thudhamma monks was the Nyaungyan
Sayadaw, U Revata, from the Mogaung Taik in Mandalay. The famous
Upper Burma leader had represented a sizable group of monks within the
Maha Sangha Ahpwe during and after World War II."

Also on page 137 is the mention of him being the president of the
Sixth Council. There are other page references that I can look up for
more details about his activities. I saw in another book that the
Thudhamma branch is the largest of the four branches of the Sangha in
Myanmar.

Thank-you for your first contribution here and I look forward to
reading more of them from you again in the near future. I'm somewhat
hesitant to ask you questions as I don't want to take up too much of
your time especially if you are busy with other engagements. If you
don't mind, I'd like you to clarify a matter in the Namakkaara.tiika
where it is said that 'sa' is the substitute of 'santa' before
'i.t.tha' in the third and fourth etymology of 'se.t.tho'. I have
found a Kaccayana sutta that might apply but I'm not sure if it allows
this substitution to take place before 'i.t.tha' to form 'se.t.tha'.
It certainly applies in such cases as 'sabbhi' or 'sakkaaro'. Here's
the sutta with its vutti only:

Kc 185 santasaddassa so bhe bo cante.
sabbasseva santasaddassa sakaaraadeso hoti bhakaare pare, ante ca
bakaaraagamo hoti.

If this sutta does not apply to the 'sa' of 'se.t.tho' which one does?

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi!Jim and others
> I have been silent for a while because I have been enquiring about
> the authorship of namakkaara.tiikaa. Yes, it was written by a senior
> monk of Burma. His title was Ven. Revataabhiva.masa and he was the
> first abbot of Nyaung Yan Pali University, Mo Gaung Monastic
Complex,
> Mandalay, Myanmar (Burma). He was the chairman of the Sixth Buddhist
> Council held in Burma. But he passed away while the Sixth Buddhist
> Council was still in progress and was succeeded by another senior
> monk.
> I have got even a phone number of that monastery if you wish for
> further information but I'm afraid you would have to search for an
> interpreter that can speak Burmese for the monks residing there
spead
> little English.
> with metta
> Ven. Pandita
 
 
814
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 10:44am
Subject: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> > > This is also what the PTS's PED entry has as well. So your
> dictionary
> > > took it right from there.
> > >
> >
> > I think they mentioned this. This is probably why the dictionary
> was
> > so much more expensive than the rest of their publications, because
> > they are probably paying for the use of PTS material. For their own
> > Thai translations there was probably no cost whatever, like for the
> > rest of the books, 'just the cost of the paper' as the octagenarian
> > gentleman told me. And to think they donate their books to
> > educational institutions, who probably just leave them on the
> shelves.
> > I think the ones they are donating to the WFB library will be put
> to
> > good use, though.
> 
> I think the Foundation is doing some really good work and one I
> wouldn't mind donating some money to. You're probably already aware of
> this -- the PED is available online at the following url:
> http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ Instead of typing out the
> entire entry from your dictionary as you seem to have done, you could
> save yourself time by copying and pasting it from the website as I
> have done here:
> 
> Visesa (p. 641) [fr. vi+sis, cp. Epic Sk. visesa] 1. (mark of)
> distinction, characteristic, discrimination A I.267; S IV.210; J II.9;
> Miln 29; VvA 58, 131; PvA 50, 60. -- 2. elegance, splendour,
> excellence J V.151; DhA I.399. -- 3. distinction, peculiar merit or
> advantage, eminence, excellence, extraordinary state D I.233 (so for
> vivesa all through?); A III.349 (opp. hana); J I.435; VvA 157
> (punna); PvA 71 (id.), 147 (sukha). -- 4. difference, variety SnA
> 477, 504; VvA 2; PvA 37, 81, 135 (pl.= items). abl. visesato,
> distinctively, altogether PvA 1, 259. -- 5. specific idea (in
> meditation), attainment J VI.69: see & cp. Brethren 24, n. 1; 110. --
> Cp. pati.
> nn--adhigama specific attainment A IV.22; M II.96; Nett 92; Miln 412;
> DhA I.100. [Cp. BSk. visesadhigama Divy 174]. --gamin reaching
> distinction, gaining merit A II.185; III.349 sq.; S V.108. --gu
> reaching a higher state or attainment J VI.573. --paccaya ground for
> distinction VvA 20. --bhagiya participating in, or leading to
> distinction or progress (spiritually) D III.272 sq., 277, 282; Nett
> 77; Vism 11, 88 (abstr. bhagiyata).
> 

Dear Jim,

Thank you for this, it is wonderful to know we can have such easy
access to all the detailed explanations.

[I'm also sorry for being slow to reply, I had been away to Krabi, on
the Andaman Sea, for a few days.]


> > > > Together with Saddha wouldn't it mean something like 'detailed
> > > > analysis of words'? [Although as a book title, 'The Wonder of
> > > Words'
> > > > sounds more magically appealing to me.]
> > >
> > > Interesting but not sure about 'analysis', though 'detail' could
> be a
> > > translation of 'visesa' (differentia).
> >
> >
> > Just a minor point, but practically wouldn't you have to analyse
> > something in order to differentiate them, Jim?
> 
> Yes, I think that's probably true. Dhammapaala uses the term
> 'padavibaaga' (analysis of words) and interestingly enough he starts
> out explaining the term as the differentiation or distinction of words
> (padavibhaago ti padaana.m viseso -- Sv-p.t I 43). There's that
> 'visesa' word again!
> 
> > I'll try to have them send it off with the rest, and try to remember
> > to note a few things for you. Unless you would prefer to wait a
> > little longer and discover them for yourself!
> 
> > > What is this ANAOABASATU? It doesn't look like a proper Pali
> spelling.
> > > Could you check?
> > >
> >
> > It's ANAPANASATI, sorry about that. [I am a slow typist especially
> > with all the Paali, which must be my excuse, plus the constant phone
> > calls while I was typing.]
> 
> Thanks for the correction, it's all clear now. I believe this book
> contains just the Anapanassatikatha from the Pa.tis text along with
> its corresponding commentary from Pa.tis-a.
> 

A bit about your shipment, I took the two volumes of Paali only texts
of the Mahakaccayana set [of 14 books of various sizes, all but the
two with Thai explanations] to add to the BF books today. The rest I
will keep here for a while in case I could look up in the Thai what
you have post here. I would like to add that yesterday there was a
little photo session for the lady from NP bringing the WFB library the
large stack of books and telling us a little about the background of
its compilation and translation. Apparently it took them ten years
and a great deal of funding. 


> > I've told the lady to hold everything and wait for your letter,
> which
> > you can also email me to fax to her, if you wish. Or send it to her
> > by surface mail, of course,
> 
> We will get this all sorted out offlist. Thanks for telling us about
> the Bimalobhikkhu Foundation and their wonderful treasure-trove of
> Pali texts. The list of their books and the contact address that you
> have provided will come in handy. When I make up a booklist of Pali
> grammatical texts, I'll be sure to include them. It's great that you
> have established a good connection with the Foundation.
> 
> Much appreciated,
> Jim


I'm glad to be of some help, 

Amara
 
 
815
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:14pm
Subject: se.t.tho -- derivation 3

 
    Derivation 3

Text: santehi sappurisehi esitabbo gavesitabboti vaa se.t.tho.
santasadduupapado isa gavesane ta, santasaddassa so, ikaarasse,
tassa.t.tho. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11

Translation: Or, (he) is to be sought out, searched for by wise ones,
by virtuous men. The dependent word 'santa', (the root) 'isa' in (the
sense of) seeking, (the past participle affix) 'ta'; (the substitute)
'sa' for the word 'santa', 'e' for the letter 'i', '.t.tha' for 'ta'.

Comments:
1) On 'santehi sappurisehi'. I take 'santehi' to be a present
participle noun in the instrumental plural from the root 'as' (to be).
'santa' is also a past participle from two identical roots 'sam'
having three meanings: calmed, wearied, ceased. In several
commentaries the nom. plural 'santo' is explained like this: santo ti
pa.n.ditaa sappurisaa. ('santo' means 'pa.n.ditaa' or 'sappurisaa') --
Ppk I 267. This shows that 'santehi' is from the root 'as' since I
doubt one would find a 'santo' nom. pl. form derived from 'sam'.
Following the explanation in the Ppk (or SA), I take the 'sappurisehi'
to be a synonym of 'santehi' rather than take 'santehi' as an
adjective modifying 'sappurisehi'. At abhidhaanappadiipikaa 841, seven
meanings for 'santo' (deriving from the roots 'as' and 'sam') are
given and at Sadd p.488, six are given. The one that I think is meant
here is 'saadhuu' (wise or virtuous men) where Sadd quotes an example
in: ``santo have sabbhi pavedayantii''ti [Dhp 151] aadiisu
saadhuusu.<endquote> 'santo' comes from the root 'as' with the initial
'a' elided (Kc 506: sabbatthaasassaadilopo ca) and the addition of the
present particple affix 'anta' (Kc 565: vattamaane maanantaa).

2) On 'esitabbo gavesitabbo'. This is another pair like the previous
pair where the second word explains the first which is a very useful
device. The 'gavesitabbo' also helps to determine which root the first
word comes from. The form of these two words is that of the future or
potential passive participle with the kicca affix 'tabba'. From a
cursory reading of the relevant suttas in Kc, Ruup, and Sadd it
becomes evident that the meanings and tenses that can be read into
this type of participle is more extensive than that given in Warder
(104ff.). I don't know too much more than what's in Warder and I think
I'd need a full week to study what's written about the kicca affixes
in the texts which I'd better defer for another time when a word with
one of these affixes comes up in Kc. One problem I see: Can the
interpretation of 'i.t.tha' (sought) with the kicca word 'esitabbo' be
supported by a sutta? One interpretation of 'esitabbo' could be 'he
(the Buddha) is worthy of being sought (by the wise) or he is worth
seeking out'. See Ruup 545 and Warder, p.107. Unlike the 2nd
derivation, this one takes 'se.t.tho' as the object (kamma) of seeking
by the agent (wise ones).

3) On 'isa gavesane ta'. I find it odd that the commentator switched
from 'esa' in the 2nd derivation to 'isa' here where in both cases
they share the same root meaning. I think the use of the past
participle affix 'ta' differs from its use as an agent (kattu) defined
at Kc 557 (budhagamaaditthe kattari) as I described in my earlier
post. I think the rule for its use as an object here is covered by Kc
556 (bhaavakammesu ta) but the rule states that the tense is past only
so that presents some problems for the 'esitabbo' interpretation which
by the way does include a past tense (hiyyattanii or the imperfect).

4) On 'santasaddassa so'. This is the substitution of 'sa' for
'santa'. I have found a rule for this but I'm not sure if it applies
here as it seems to be restricted to words like sabbhi, sabbhaavo,
etc.

Kc 185: santasaddassa so bhe bo cante.
Translation: 'sa' in the room of the word 'santa' before (the letter)
'bha' and there is the (insertion of the letter) 'b' at the end (of
'sa').

It might depend on how one interprets the 'ca' in 'cante' (= ca
ante). Perhaps the rule could be saying that in the case of 'bha'
there is an inserted 'b'. I hope Ven. Pandita will be able to clear up
this matter for us.

5) The formation of the word is sa + i.t.tha (Kc 573) > se.t.tha by
the two sandhi rules Kc 12 for the elision of the first 'a' and Kc 14
for changing the 'i' to 'e' as discussed before.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
816
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation

 
    Dear Amara,

You wrote:
[I'm also sorry for being slow to reply, I had been away to Krabi, on
the Andaman Sea, for a few days.]

J: No need to be sorry. Sounds like an exotic place to go away for a
few days!

A: A bit about your shipment, I took the two volumes of Paali only
texts of the Mahakaccayana set [of 14 books of various sizes, all but
the two with Thai explanations] to add to the BF books today. The
rest I will keep here for a while in case I could look up in the Thai
what you have post here. I would like to add that yesterday there was
a little photo session for the lady from NP bringing the WFB library
the large stack of books and telling us a little about the background
of its compilation and translation. Apparently it took them ten years
and a great deal of funding.

J: Thank you for taking the two Pali volumes to add to the BF books.
It will be good if you could keep the remaining 12 volumes of the set
for awhile in case we need some detailed explanations that you can
look up for us. I thought the set was only 3 volumes but it has turned
out to be a much larger set than anticipated.

A: I'm glad to be of some help,

J: Thank you for your great help, much appreciated.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
817
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:36pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 3 (correction)

 
    A correction: Ppk should read Spk for Saaratthappakaasinii, the
commentary on the Sa.myuttanikaaya. Ppk refers to Pa~ncappakara.na,
the last five books of the Abhidhammapi.taka. Sorry for the mistake.
Jim

> having three meanings: calmed, wearied, ceased. In several
> commentaries the nom. plural 'santo' is explained like this: santo
ti
> pa.n.ditaa sappurisaa. ('santo' means 'pa.n.ditaa' or
'sappurisaa') --
> Ppk I 267. This shows that 'santehi' is from the root 'as' since I
> doubt one would find a 'santo' nom. pl. form derived from 'sam'.
> Following the explanation in the Ppk (or SA), I take the
'sappurisehi'
 
 
818
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:31pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 3

 
    Dear Jim,
thank you very much.
I am just catching up, had no time to go to your web and look at no 1,2.
Just a few remarks.
op 14-02-2004 02:14 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Comments:
At abhidhaanappadiipikaa 841, seven
> meanings for 'santo' (deriving from the roots 'as' and 'sam') are
> given and at Sadd p.488, six are given. The one that I think is meant
> here is 'saadhuu' (wise or virtuous men) where Sadd quotes an example
> in: ``santo have sabbhi pavedayantii''ti [Dhp 151] aadiisu
> saadhuusu.<endquote> 'santo' comes from the root 'as' with the initial
> 'a' elided (Kc 506: sabbatthaasassaadilopo ca) and the addition of the
> present particple affix 'anta' (Kc 565: vattamaane maanantaa).
N: I was interested at santo: existing , true. Saddhamma can mean: true
dhamma or dhamma of the peaceful. But here it is as you say.
J: sabbhaavo: 
N: I have to be careful, since sa can also be: own (Vedic: sva). I did not
find sabbhaavo, only sabhaavo. True nature? I am interested since we discuss
this a lot on dsg. 
J:Unlike the 2nd
> derivation, this one takes 'se.t.tho' as the object (kamma) of seeking
> by the agent (wise ones).
N: Can it also mean: to be sought among the wise ones. Thus: he is the best
of the wise ones? 
Now placing all this in the context of the Co by Mahaavijitaavi:
<sundare satipa..t.thaanaadibhede dhamme esati gavesatii ti se.t.tho.
>Perhaps you discussed this already? I would be interested.
This is for Rett: 
Hi Rett,
Were there any remarks about your translation of the Introductory verse?
You were wondering about tamo neuter, and written as masc. No mistake, it is
in the rhyme: tamo yena so uttamo. Besides, there can be change of linga,
gender. As I mentioned before, Horner mentions in her intro to The Clarifier
of the Sweet Meaning that change of gender occurs, and not out of
negligence. Evenso the change of cases, and changes of tense are possible.
I am catching up and had no time yet to answer your question about compound.
I noticed a few other things, but maybe you received already suggestions?
Nina.
 
 
819
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:13am
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 3

 
    Dear Nina,

Welcome back from Thailand and Cambodia!

> thank you very much.
> I am just catching up, had no time to go to your web and look at no
1,2.
> Just a few remarks.

[...]

> J: sabbhaavo:
> N: I have to be careful, since sa can also be: own (Vedic: sva). I
did not
> find sabbhaavo, only sabhaavo. True nature? I am interested since we
discuss
> this a lot on dsg.

I don't see 'sabbhaavo' in PED but it does occur often enough in the
commentaries and subcommentaries and shouldn't be confused with the
more familiar 'sabhaavo'. The Saddaniiti gives 3 derivations for
'sabbhaavo', one of which is: attano bhaavo like sabhaavo, the other
two are: sata.m bhaavo (= sappurisadhammo) & sa.mvijjamaano bhaavo
(existing state??). As you know 'sabhaavo' can also be derived in
several different ways as seen in Sadd and the detailed commentary in
Pa.tis-a.

> J:Unlike the 2nd
> > derivation, this one takes 'se.t.tho' as the object (kamma) of
seeking
> > by the agent (wise ones).
> N: Can it also mean: to be sought among the wise ones. Thus: he is
the best
> of the wise ones?

I think the commentator would have used 'santesu' instead of 'santehi'
if he meant 'among the wise ones' which I think would be another valid
interpretation.

The meaning: 'the best one' belongs only to the first derivation
with 'sa' as the substitute of 'pasattha' followed by the affix of
comparison 'i.t.tha'. With the meanings of the remaining 5
derivatives, the meaning of 'the best one' is just with the first
derivation. Although 'se.t.tho' refers to the Buddha in all of these
cases, we are dealing with a homonym derived in six different ways,
each having its own unique meaning(s). Before you went away I was only
going to treat the first two and then I came upon a detailed
commentary on 'se.t.tho' in the Namakkaara.tiikaa written around 1945
by the President of the Sixth Council, U Rewataabhiva.msa, which gives
an additional 4. The first derivation from 'pasattha' is described in
Kaccayana and even in Buddhaghosa which occasionally glosses
'se.t.tho' with 'pasatthataro'. The other five derivations are
late-comers and could be viewed as optional ones that could be ignored
if one prefers to keep it simple.

> Now placing all this in the context of the Co by Mahaavijitaavi:
> <sundare satipa..t.thaanaadibhede dhamme esati gavesatii ti
> se.t.tho.
> Perhaps you discussed this already? I would be interested.

Yes, this is all discussed in my post for derivation 2. After I'm
through with the last derivation, I will post a summary of all six.
I'm currently working on the 4th one which takes the 'i.t.tha' as 'the
desired or loved one' which made me smile as you had made that
association early last summer when we were discussing the first
derivation which I then thought was the only one possible.

You might be interested in seeing the list of Pali books published by
the Bhumibalobhikkhu Foundation in Bangkok that Amara posted here. It
includes some rare texts such as the Ga.n.thipada on
Pa.tisambhidamagga and another .tiikaa on Visuddhimagga. I have placed
an order for 11 of their books. Yesterday, I received my copy of
Kahr's Indian Semantic Analysis that Rett had recommended here
earlier.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
820
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:30pm
Subject: sandhi in sabbhaavo

 
    Dear Jim
I reconsidered the word sabbhaavo: of course in was not in the dictionary,
it has a sandhi. 
You also wrote that b was inserted. Sant or sa+ bhaavo.
Nina.
 
 
821
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:37pm
Subject: Re: sandhi in sabbhaavo

 
    Dear Nina,

The 'sa' that is prefixed to words is one that I often have trouble
with as it can represent several things such as saha, sva, santa,
samaana (same), and possibly the prefix sa.m. Take 'sappurisa', for
instance, which is glossed as 'sobhanaa purisaa' (in the plural) as at
Pa.tis-a II 446 and 'sobha.no puriso' at Sadd p.752. In this
derivation, the Saddaniiti takes the 'sap' as 'sa.m' with the '.m'
changed to a 'p'. Now I'm not sure if this 'sa.m' is a prefix
(upasagga) in the sense of 'sobha.na' or if it's 'santa' (existing) in
the nom. sing. form 'sa.m' which seems to be the more unlikely of the
two. The Saddaniiti also gives another derivation 'santo puriso' on
p.753 but takes the 'santo' here in the sense of peaceful as it
glosses it with 'santacitto puriso' (a calm-minded person).

Jim

> Dear Jim
> I reconsidered the word sabbhaavo: of course in was not in the
dictionary,
> it has a sandhi.
> You also wrote that b was inserted. Sant or sa+ bhaavo.
> Nina.
 
 
822
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 1:00pm
Subject: Re: sandhi in sabbhaavo

 
    Dear Jim,
thank you very much for all the info. It will take time to absorb it all.
Your summary will be helpful,
Nina. 
op 19-02-2004 00:37 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:


> The 'sa' that is prefixed to words is one that I often have trouble
> with as it can represent several things such as saha, sva, santa,
> samaana (same), and possibly the prefix sa.m. ..


823
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Feb 20, 2004 7:08pm
Subject: se.t.tho -- derivation 4

 
    Derivation 4

Text: santehi sappurisehi icchiyati kantiyatiiti vaa se.t.tho.
santasaddopapado isu icchaakantiisu ta. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11
[kantiyati should probably be kaamiyati]

Translation: Or, "he is desired, he is loved by the wise ones", thus
se.t.tho. Having the secondary word 'santa', the root 'is' in the
sense of 'desire or love', the past participle affix 'ta'.

Comments:
1) 'santehi sappurisehi' is explained in my comments on the third
derivation.

2) On 'icchiyati kantiyati'. These two are passive verbs (kammuno
kiriyaapadaani). 'icchiyati' is derived from the root 'is' (isu
icchaaya.m Sd 989) which is optionally changed to 'iccha-' by Kc 522
(isuyamuunamanto ccho vaa), the 'ya' is the affix of impersonal and
passive verbs by Kc 440 (bhaavakammesu yo), the 'i' (or 'ii') is an
insertion (aagama) by Kc 442 (iva.n.naagamo vaa), 'ti' is the present
tense vibhatti affix, third person singular. I think 'kantiyati'
should probably be 'kaamiyati' from the root 'kam' (kamu
icchaa-kantisu Sd 1564). There can be a passive verb 'kantiyati'
derived from two different roots 'kant' having the meanings of 'to
cut' or 'to plait, twist, spin' none of which applies here.

3) On 'santasaddopapado' (having the secondary word 'santa'). The
word 'upapada' is a grammatical term and is defined in the CPD
as follows: upapada, n. [ts.], 1. (Grr.) a secondary, accessory,
subordinate word; esp. the first member of a two-member cpd.
<endquote> Except for the first derivative (from pasattha), the
remaining five are compounds (samaasas) consisting of two members.
There are four major categories of compounds: avyayiibhaava, dvanda,
tappurisa, and bahubbiihi with the kammadhaaraya and digu subtypes
included in the tappurisa. In this derivation, as in the last one, the
resolution of the compound 'se.t.tho' is 'santehi i.t.tho' (one
desired or loved by the wise). I think this would fit in the category
of a tatiyatappurisa compound with the upapada word 'santehi' in the
third (instrumental) case. It is hard for me to determine for sure
what type of compound the second derivative (su + e.t.tha) belongs to.
There is a type of kammadhaaraya called paadipubbapado (having 'pa'
etc. as the antecedent word) described at Sadd p.752-3. But from what
I'm reading, the meaning(s) of the prefix has to be in the same case
as the second member eg. "atireko adhiko vaa abhidhammo". In the case
of the prefix 'su' of 'se.t.tho' the case is different: 'sundare
(dhamme) e.t.tho' (one who seeks the beautiful) making it a
dutiyatappurisa or in another resolution: 'sundaraana.m (dhammaana.m)
+ e.t.tho' (seeker of the beautiful) making it a cha.t.thiitappurisa.
I still have a great deal more to learn about compounds before I can
accurately identify them. I just noticed that the 'sap' of 'sappurisa'
is definitely an upasagga (sa.m) at Sadd p.752.

4) On 'i.t.tha' (desired). This is a past participle formed in the
same way as the 'i.t.tha' (sought) of the third derivative. The
difference is that they are derived from different roots. One question
that came to mind was: Is the 'i.t.tha' that one finds in a word like
'i.t.thaaramma.na' from the root 'isu icchaaya.m' (to desire) or is it
from the root 'isa pariyesane' (to seek)? This question is considered
at Sv II 403 ad DN I 245: "i.t.thaa ti pariyi.t.thaa vaa hontu maa vaa
i.t.thaaramma.nabhuutaa ti attho." which still doesn't clarify the
matter for me but Dhammapaala's comment on this passage certainly
does: "gavesitampi i.t.than ti vuccati, ta.m idha naadhipetan ti aaha
'i.t.thaa ti pariyi.t.thaa vaa hontu maa vaa ti.
i.t.thaaramma.nabhuutaa ti sukhaaramma.nabhuutaa. -- Sv-p.t I 522. In
my earlier post on derivation 3, I was questioning how one could read
a past participle 'i.t.tho' as a future passive participle 'esitabbo'
in view of the fact that I haven't been able to fin a grammatical
sutta to support this, not even in Paa.nini. Well it just so happens
that the next word after 'i.t.thaa' that Buddhaghosa comments on is
another past participle: 'kantaa' (loved) which strangely enough is
interpreted as a future passive participle 'kaamaniyaa' which
Dhammapaala glosses with 'kaametabbaa'. Now why can't I find any of
this in the classical grammars?

Best wishes,
Jim


824
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:57pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 4

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for all this. One reading is not enough, but I reviewed
what you wrote before, such as last July (about July 15 th).
op 21-02-2004 01:08 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Derivation 4
> 
> Text: santehi sappurisehi icchiyati kantiyatiiti vaa se.t.tho.
> santasaddopapado isu icchaakantiisu ta. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11
> [kantiyati should probably be kaamiyati]
N: I found in the dict. kanto: loved, desired. And kaameti : to crave,
desire.
kantiyati: it seems very unlikely that the ancient grammarian made a
mistake, they were most accurate. It could be a passive form, derived from
the stem kant don't you think so? We people today may not always know the
reason why there is this form kantiyati.

J: There are four major categories of compounds: avyayiibhaava, dvanda,
> tappurisa, and bahubbiihi with the kammadhaaraya and digu subtypes
> included in the tappurisa. In this derivation, as in the last one, the
> resolution of the compound 'se.t.tho' is 'santehi i.t.tho' (one
> desired or loved by the wise).
N: Compounds is a most welcome subject.
Rett asked me on account of the Bandhu scenario, but I did not venture to
answer:
<Thus, we have the swearing word "bandhupaadaapacce" as meaning the
>sons born from the feet of the great brahmaa who are also the
>relatives of the Devil (maaraa).
>So would it be right to say that in effect the commentary proposes
>two different possible analyses of the cpd, one a tappurisa (tp), and
one a kammadharaya (kd)? One being given at one place in the
commentary, the other at another place? (the numbers refer to the
cases, 5 being ablative, 6 being genitive).
1) (bandhu-6tp-paada)-5tp-apacce
"offspring from brahman's feet"
2) bandhu-kd-(paadaa-5tp-apacce)
"relatives (of maara) who are offspring of feet"
Rett: If I were forced to choose I would find the second one (which was
given in the passage I cited) to be less plausible. But I suppose the
ambiguity might have been preserved for effect.> end quote from Rett.
N: I do not know whether this issue is appropriate here, it may destract
from se.t.tho? in that case we leave it now.
I used in a quote what you wrote in July about accuracy of the letters, but
I was not sure whether this is from the Kaccayaana?
<For in a mistake with letters there is a wrong conveying of the meaning,
therefore skilfulness with letters is of much help in the discourses.>
I was thinking of i.t.thaaramma.na: I found piya ruupa, saata ruupa, in the
Vibhanga, and in the Yamaka co to anusaya you provided me with. Does this
help? 
Nina.
 
 
825
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Feb 23, 2004 0:36pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 4

 
    Dear Nina,

> > Text: santehi sappurisehi icchiyati kantiyatiiti vaa se.t.tho.
> > santasaddopapado isu icchaakantiisu ta. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11
> > [kantiyati should probably be kaamiyati]
> N: I found in the dict. kanto: loved, desired. And kaameti : to
crave,
> desire.
> kantiyati: it seems very unlikely that the ancient grammarian made a
> mistake, they were most accurate. It could be a passive form,
derived from
> the stem kant don't you think so? We people today may not always
know the
> reason why there is this form kantiyati.

In PED you will see two entries for the verb 'kantati' which are not
at all related to the past participle 'kanta' or the feminine noun
'kanti'. So 'kantiyati' in the sense of 'he is loved' does not make
sense to me. I doubt that this verb form in the derivation can be
traced back to any of the ancient commentaries. I only know of it in
this very recent .tiikaa dated at around 1945. 'kantiyati' is a rare
form as I can only find it 4 times in a Vinaya .tiikaa which has it
glossed as 'chindiiyati' (it is cut).

> J: There are four major categories of compounds: avyayiibhaava,
dvanda,
> > tappurisa, and bahubbiihi with the kammadhaaraya and digu subtypes
> > included in the tappurisa. In this derivation, as in the last one,
the
> > resolution of the compound 'se.t.tho' is 'santehi i.t.tho' (one
> > desired or loved by the wise).
> N: Compounds is a most welcome subject.
> Rett asked me on account of the Bandhu scenario, but I did not
venture to
> answer:
> <Thus, we have the swearing word "bandhupaadaapacce" as meaning the
> >sons born from the feet of the great brahmaa who are also the
> >relatives of the Devil (maaraa).
> >So would it be right to say that in effect the commentary proposes
> >two different possible analyses of the cpd, one a tappurisa (tp),
and
> one a kammadharaya (kd)? One being given at one place in the
> commentary, the other at another place? (the numbers refer to the
> cases, 5 being ablative, 6 being genitive).
> 1) (bandhu-6tp-paada)-5tp-apacce
> "offspring from brahman's feet"
> 2) bandhu-kd-(paadaa-5tp-apacce)
> "relatives (of maara) who are offspring of feet"
> Rett: If I were forced to choose I would find the second one (which
was
> given in the passage I cited) to be less plausible. But I suppose
the
> ambiguity might have been preserved for effect.> end quote from
Rett.

So far, I haven't been able to come up with a definitive solution to
this problem of the apparent inconsistency between the two
interpretations of 'bandhupaadaapacca' at Sv I 254 & Sv III 862.
Taking the first as a tappurisa compound and the second as a
kammadhaaraya could account for the difference in the two
interpretations. I thought of another possibility while comparing the
two interpretations in the commentary. I noticed that, in the second,
Buddhaghosa does not quote the compound in full but just comments on
'bandhu' and 'paadapacce' as if they were separate words in the
original text: 'bandhuu paadaapacce' instead of 'bandhupaadaapacce'.
Perhaps the scribes mistakenly joined the two (shortening the 'u') at
D III 81 for consistency with the normal reading but by doing so they
inadvertently created a problem in the commentarial interpretations.
This is only speculation. Also, it seems possible that the phrase
might have been understood differently among the Brahmins themselves
depending on which part of India they lived in and other factors.

> N: I do not know whether this issue is appropriate here, it may
destract
> from se.t.tho? in that case we leave it now.

This issue is appropriate here as it touches on the topic of
compounds. The list doesn't have to be completely focussed on
Kaccayana. Any matter relating to the Pali language and the texts is
welcome, anything that helps to improve our understanding of Pali is
fine.

> I used in a quote what you wrote in July about accuracy of the
letters, but
> I was not sure whether this is from the Kaccayaana?
> <For in a mistake with letters there is a wrong conveying of the
meaning,
> therefore skilfulness with letters is of much help in the
discourses.>

Yes, this is the explanation of the first Kaccayana sutta which is
quite a fitting one to start off at the beginning of a grammar.

> I was thinking of i.t.thaaramma.na: I found piya ruupa, saata ruupa,
in the
> Vibhanga, and in the Yamaka co to anusaya you provided me with. Does
this
> help?

I'm not sure if it will help but thanks anyway and I've taken note. I
checked the Yamaka cty but didn't find the terms in the discussion
relating to 'i.t.thaaramman.na'. I think my question about which
'i.t.tha' is involved has been solved. It is the one derived from the
root meaning 'to desire' not the one meaning 'to seek'.

Jim
 
 
826
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:38pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 4

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much.
op 23-02-2004 18:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
>> 
> In PED you will see two entries for the verb 'kantati' which are not
> at all related to the past participle 'kanta' or the feminine noun
> 'kanti'. So 'kantiyati' in the sense of 'he is loved' does not make
> sense to me. I doubt that this verb form in the derivation can be
> traced back to any of the ancient commentaries. I only know of it in
> this very recent .tiikaa dated at around 1945. 'kantiyati' is a rare
> form as I can only find it 4 times in a Vinaya .tiikaa which has it
> glossed as 'chindiiyati' (it is cut).

>> N: Compounds is a most welcome subject.
>> Rett asked me on account of the Bandhu scenario, but I did not
> venture to
>> answer:
J: So far, I haven't been able to come up with a definitive solution to
> this problem of the apparent inconsistency between the two
> interpretations of 'bandhupaadaapacca' at Sv I 254 & Sv III 862.
> Taking the first as a tappurisa compound and the second as a
> kammadhaaraya could account for the difference in the two
> interpretations. I thought of another possibility while comparing the
> two interpretations in the commentary. I noticed that, in the second,
> Buddhaghosa does not quote the compound in full but just comments on
> 'bandhu' and 'paadapacce' as if they were separate words in the
> original text: 'bandhuu paadaapacce' instead of 'bandhupaadaapacce'.
> Perhaps the scribes mistakenly joined the two (shortening the 'u') at
> D III 81 for consistency with the normal reading but by doing so they
> inadvertently created a problem in the commentarial interpretations.
> This is only speculation. Also, it seems possible that the phrase
> might have been understood differently among the Brahmins themselves
> depending on which part of India they lived in and other factors.
N: I am very ignorant, and we could also ask Suan perhaps?
I feel lost when thinking of subclasses of compounds. I shall look at Warder
again. 
>> I was thinking of i.t.thaaramma.na: I found piya ruupa, saata ruupa,
> in the
>> Vibhanga, and in the Yamaka co to anusaya you provided me with. Does
> this
>> help?
J: I'm not sure if it will help but thanks anyway and I've taken note. I
> checked the Yamaka cty but didn't find the terms in the discussion
> relating to 'i.t.thaaramman.na'.
N: Here it is: Under uppatti.t.thaanavaarava..n..nanaa, about the two
feelings that can arise with kaamaraaga and the object experienced:
<nanu cesa aaramma.navasena anusayamaano na kevala.m imaasu dviisu
vedanaasu
ceva vedanaasampayuttadhammesu ca anuseti, i.t.thesu pana ruupaadiisupi
anusetiyeva. vuttampi ceta.m vibha"ngappakara.ne (vibha0 816) ``ya.m loke
piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m, ettha sattaana.m kaamaraagaanusayo anusetii''ti
imasmimpi pakara.ne anusayavaarassa pa.tilomanaye vutta.m. ``>
Nina.
 
 
827
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Feb 24, 2004 7:19pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 4

 
    Dear Nina,

[...]

> > This is only speculation. Also, it seems possible that the phrase
> > might have been understood differently among the Brahmins
themselves
> > depending on which part of India they lived in and other factors.
> N: I am very ignorant, and we could also ask Suan perhaps?

Suan is welcome to add more to this if he wishes.

> I feel lost when thinking of subclasses of compounds. I shall look
at Warder
> again.

I think the simplest approach is to build on the four main types I
mentioned earlier. The digu and kammadhaaraya are considered to be
pa.thama-tappurisas (1st tp). The kammadhaaraya is divided again into
9 subtypes in the Saddaniiti. I think digu compounds (eg. tiloka.m,
tipi.taka.m) are probably the easiest to identify while bahubbiihis
are the most difficult. There is a special chapter on compounds in
Kaccayana as is also the case with the Saddaniiti and other grammars.
It's a subject that I still have a great deal more to learn about. As
I slowly work through the grammar, I'll do my best to analyse the
compounds met with along the way. There will be another one
(tilokamahita.m) coming up soon which we briefly touched on last
month.

I would like to correct what I quoted earlier from Sadd p.752 on
'abhidhammo' as a kammadhaaraya compound. "atireko adhiko vaa
abhidhammo" should read "atireko adhiko vaa dhammo abhidhammo". I had
left out an important word in the explanation.

> J: I'm not sure if it will help but thanks anyway and I've taken
note. I
> > checked the Yamaka cty but didn't find the terms in the discussion
> > relating to 'i.t.thaaramman.na'.
> N: Here it is: Under uppatti.t.thaanavaarava..n..nanaa, about the
two
> feelings that can arise with kaamaraaga and the object experienced:
> <nanu cesa aaramma.navasena anusayamaano na kevala.m imaasu dviisu
> vedanaasu
> ceva vedanaasampayuttadhammesu ca anuseti, i.t.thesu pana
ruupaadiisupi
> anusetiyeva. vuttampi ceta.m vibha"ngappakara.ne (vibha0 816) ``ya.m
loke
> piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m, ettha sattaana.m kaamaraagaanusayo
anusetii''ti
> imasmimpi pakara.ne anusayavaarassa pa.tilomanaye vutta.m. ``>

Thank you for quoting the passage. Now I know where to look.

Jim
 
 
828
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:41pm
Subject: FW: bandhu issue

 
    Dear Jim,
I frwd this from Suan.
----------
Van: "suanluzaw" <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org>
Datum: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:52:09 -0600
Aan: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl>
Onderwerp: Re: bandhu issue (Complete One)

When the noun "bandhu" means the relatives of Devil in the
compound "bandhupaadaapaccaa", it is Kammadhaaraya sammaasa.

For many Brahmins, the expression "Paadaapaccaa" must have been vey
obvious and understood to refer to the sons born from the feet of the
Great Brahmaa. There are many modern examples in English of the
understood phrases with the missing terms. For example, the US where
the missing noun is A for America.

The following is the definition of the two compounds from Ruupasiddhi
(Commentary on Kaccaayana Saddaa).


Kammadhaaraya sammaasa

ayam samaaso ekassa atthassa dve naamaani dhaarayati,
tasmim samaase sati ekatthajotakassa naamadvayassa sambhavato.

This compound carries two nouns. Why? It is due to the fact of the two
nouns illustrating a single meaning.

Section 339, Ruupasiddhi, (Commentary on Kaccaayana Saddaa)

Tappurisasamaasa

Yathaa hi tappurisasaddo gu.namativatto, tathaa ayam samaasopi.
Uttarapadatthappadhaano hi tappurisoti.

As the term tappuriso goes beyond the attribute (i.e, the
adjective), so does this compound (give weight to the nound that comes
after). Indeed, it should be noted that the tappurisa compound is the
determinant of the meaning of the noun that follows.

Section 341, Ruupasiddhi, (Commentary on Kaccaayana Saddaa)

Jim: <So far, I haven't been able to come up with a definitive solution
to
this problem of the apparent inconsistency between the two
interpretations of 'bandhupaadaapacca' at Sv I 254 & Sv III 862.
Taking the first as a tappurisa compound and the second as a
kammadhaaraya could account for the difference in the two
interpretations. I thought of another possibility while comparing the
two interpretations in the commentary. I noticed that, in the second,
Buddhaghosa does not quote the compound in full but just comments on
'bandhu' and 'paadapacce' as if they were separate words in the
original text: 'bandhuu paadaapacce' instead of 'bandhupaadaapacce'.
Perhaps the scribes mistakenly joined the two (shortening the 'u') at
D III 81 for consistency with the normal reading but by doing so they
inadvertently created a problem in the commentarial interpretations.
This is only speculation. Also, it seems possible that the phrase
might have been understood differently among the Brahmins themselves
depending on which part of India they lived in and other factors.>
*******
 
 
829
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:31pm
Subject: Re: FW: bandhu issue

 
    Dear Nina,

Thank you for taking the time to ask and for forwarding Suan's reply.
I appreciate his definition quotes and translation from the
Ruupasiddhi. The Saddaniiti also gives similar definitions of the
compounds. However, these definitions do not come clear to me
immediately so I will have to study them more carefully later on for a
better understanding. I checked the reading for D III 81 on the Thai
Budsir disk and found "bandhupaadaa pacce ti" which I think might be
in error with the separation of the "pacce".

Jim
 
 
830
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Mar 7, 2004 2:25pm
Subject: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Derivation 5

Text: atha vaa santaana.m sappurisaana.m hitasukha.m icchatiiti
se.t.tho, buddho. kattusaadhanoya.m. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11

Translation: Or, he wishes for the happiness and welfare of wise ones,
of good persons; thus 'se.t.tho', buddho. This (=se.t.tho) has the
function of the agent.

Comments:

1) On "he wishes for the happiness and welfare of wise ones, of good
persons", I have some reservations about the appropriateness of this
derivation because it excludes those who are not wise or
good--suggesting the Buddha's wish is a limited one.

2) On "kattusaadhanoya.m" (= kattusaadhano aya.m). I take
'kattusaadhano' to be a bahubbiihi compound because of the masc. 'o'
termination of the normally neuter '-saadhana.m' making it an
adjective modifying 'se.t.tho'. I have not yet been able to find a
translation of 'saadhana' for this context in any of my dictionaries
or grammars--so 'function' will do for the time being. The
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh 890) gives two synonyms: siddhi
(accomplishment) & kaaraka (performer, participant). On pp. 68-9 of
the Saddaniiti there is an explanation of 'saadhana' in a technical
use that is applicable here. It is similar in meaning to 'kaaraka' but
the two are used differently. There are seven kinds of saadhanas:

bhaavasaadhana.m, kattusaadhana.m, kammasaadhana.m,
kara.nasaadhana.m, sampadaanasaadhana.m, apaadaanasaadhana.m,
& adhikara.nasaadhana.m.

These can be compared with the six kaarakas beginning with
kattukaaraka.m and ending with okaasakaaraka.m (there is no
bhaavakaaraka.m among them). There is a translation and critical study
of Aggava.msa's kaaraka suttas by E.G. Kahrs in JPTS XVII where he
also brings up the 7 saadhanas.

My understanding of the application of the saadhanas is still
elementary. I think the saadhanas has a lot to do with determining the
(independent) function of a nominal word before its syntactical
relation in an actual sentence is considered. It relates to what we
call 'action nouns' or 'agent nouns' in English. For example,
'bhaavasaadhana.m' explains the meaning of the word in the function of
an action noun (nomen actionis) and 'kattusaadhana.m' refers to the
agent noun (nomen agentis). I also see in Latin that there is a 'nomen
instrumenti' and a 'nomen loci' which have their counterparts in Pali.
The saadhana of a word can be determined by understanding how the word
is derived especially with respect to the primary affix used or
looking up its traditional nibbacana (derivation) found in grammars
and commentaries. This information helps to determine the syntactical
function of the word in a sentence, eg. an agent noun is often the
agent (kattukaaraka) of the verb. However, the agent noun can also
function in other roles such as the object or patient of the verb or
absolutive such as 'se.t.tha.m' being the object (a kammakaaraka) of
'abhivandiya' (having saluted) in the verse being studied.

Best wishes,

Jim
 
 
831
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 1:03pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for this.
I contemplated on the first sentences and compared them with derivation 3
and 4, very good. I wonder whether there is another possible interpretation.
First your comment:
op 07-03-2004 20:25 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
1) On "he wishes for the happiness and welfare of wise ones, of good
> persons", I have some reservations about the appropriateness of this
> derivation because it excludes those who are not wise or
> good--suggesting the Buddha's wish is a limited one.
N: Fully agreed, he was the teacher of devas and men. But now I put 3,4,and
5 together:

>3: Text: santehi sappurisehi esitabbo gavesitabboti vaa se.t.tho.
Translation: Or, (he) is to be sought out, searched for by wise ones,
by virtuous men. 
4: Text: santehi sappurisehi icchiyati kantiyatiiti vaa se.t.tho.
Translation: Or, "he is desired, he is loved by the wise ones", thus
se.t.tho. 
Derivation 5
> 
> Text: atha vaa santaana.m sappurisaana.m hitasukha.m icchatiiti
> se.t.tho, buddho.
> Translation: Or, he wishes for the happiness and welfare of wise ones,
> of good persons; thus 'se.t.tho', buddho.
Nina:
Those who are not wise do not even know the meaning of Buddha, even if they
were in his presence. Only wise people, those who have accumulated
understanding will seek him, admire him, love him. They are people that are
capable of being taught. In accordance with their level of understanding is
their confidence, dedication and love. For them he is se.t.tho, buddho.
In derivation 5 se.t.tho is an action noun as you say. So, I have to be
careful. The Buddha even though he wished, would not be able to be se.t.tho
for unwise and unwilling people, he would not be able to teach them. Even a
Buddha cannot change that. When people have accumulated such and such kamma,
such and such inclinations it cannot be otherwise. That is the fixed law of
Dhamma, Dhamma niyaama.
What do you think? 
I still have to study the grammatical part.
Nina.
 
 
832
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Mar 8, 2004 9:38pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Dear Nina,

> Thank you very much for this.
> I contemplated on the first sentences and compared them with
derivation 3
> and 4, very good. I wonder whether there is another possible
interpretation.

I think 'santaana.m sappurisaana.m' probably has the dative plural
endings, but the genitive might be possible too as I did use 'of'
before 'wise ones'.

[...]

> > Text: atha vaa santaana.m sappurisaana.m hitasukha.m icchatiiti
> > se.t.tho, buddho.
> > Translation: Or, he wishes for the happiness and welfare of wise
ones,
> > of good persons; thus 'se.t.tho', buddho.
> Nina:
> Those who are not wise do not even know the meaning of Buddha, even
if they
> were in his presence. Only wise people, those who have accumulated
> understanding will seek him, admire him, love him. They are people
that are
> capable of being taught. In accordance with their level of
understanding is
> their confidence, dedication and love. For them he is se.t.tho,
buddho.
> In derivation 5 se.t.tho is an action noun as you say. So, I have to
be

I think you must have meant 'agent noun' instead of 'action noun'.

> careful. The Buddha even though he wished, would not be able to be
se.t.tho
> for unwise and unwilling people, he would not be able to teach them.
Even a
> Buddha cannot change that. When people have accumulated such and
such kamma,
> such and such inclinations it cannot be otherwise. That is the fixed
law of
> Dhamma, Dhamma niyaama.
> What do you think?

I like your explanation very much. I searched the CSCD for occurrences
of the word 'hitasukha.m' so I could see the various contexts it is
found in. There were several occurrences with the verb 'icchati' or a
present participle form of it. Here's one from the commentary on the
Cariyaapi.taka: "...sattaana.m anuttara.m hitasukha.m icchanto attano
daanapaarami.m paripuuretukaamo..." --Cp-a 305 (the person desiring is
the mahaapuriso which I take to be the mahaabodhisatta). The
'sattaana.m' could refer to all beings though. Another one, from the
.tiikaa on Nett-a regarding the word 'naatho' is: "naathatiiti naatho,
veneyyaana.m hitasukha.m aasiisati patthetiiti attho,..." -- Nett-p.t
4. I think this last one supports derivation 5 and your comments
because 'naatho' (protector) is an epithet of the Buddha, the verbs
'aasiisati' and 'pattheti' have meanings similar to 'icchati', and
'veneyyaana.m' refers to those, as you so well put it, 'people that
are capable of being taught'. Note that 'naathatiiti naatho' is a
perfect example of a traditional nibbacana so often seen in the
commentaries. It tells you the verb (and verbal root) that 'naatha' is
derived from and that it is an agent noun. The meaning interpretation
that follows is just the first of several.

Thanks for your input.

Jim
 
 
833
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 1:21pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Dear Jim, 
Thank you for all the other texts, nibbacana, I will study more. Meanwhile a
few questions:
Action noun and agent noun. I still find it difficult to know the
difference. 
Then the last sentence : abhivandiya, you have: having saluted, but I
thought: should be saluted, as in Karaniya (Mettaa Sutta), and Warder. I
noticed it just before going away, but meanwhile you may have dealt with
this?
Nina. 
op 09-03-2004 03:38 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> 
> I think 'santaana.m sappurisaana.m' probably has the dative plural
> endings, but the genitive might be possible too as I did use 'of'
> before 'wise ones'.
>>> Text: atha vaa santaana.m sappurisaana.m hitasukha.m icchatiiti
>>> se.t.tho, buddho.
>>> Translation: Or, he wishes for the happiness and welfare of wise
> ones,
>>> of good persons; thus 'se.t.tho', buddho.
 
 
834
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Mar 9, 2004 8:44pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Dear Nina,

> Meanwhile a few questions:
> Action noun and agent noun. I still find it difficult to know the
> difference.

You'll find a section on 'action nouns' in Warder on p.138. Nouns with
the primary affix 'ana' are very often action nouns. An example is
'dassana' (seeing). For examples of 'agent nouns' try looking in
Warder's index under that name.

As I progress I will attempt to identify these and other kinds of
nouns. I think we will have to come up with some new names for the
ones I've never heard of in English before. Suggestions for four of
the other kinds are: object noun, instrument noun, recipient noun,
locus noun (eg. a place-name). I still have to come up with one for
apaadaana-saadhana. The 'se.t.tho' in derivations 3 & 4 can be
classified as an object noun.

> Then the last sentence : abhivandiya, you have: having saluted, but
> I thought: should be saluted, as in Karaniya (Mettaa Sutta), and
> Warder. I noticed it just before going away, but meanwhile you
> may have dealt with this?

No, I haven't dealt with this yet. I'm positive 'abhivandiya' is an
absolutive with the 'ya' affix. If it had the same 'aniiya' affix that
'kara.niiya' has then it would have been 'abhivandaniiya' with an
inflected ending. Mahaavijitaavi's commentary on Kaccaayana shows that
'abhivandiya' = 'abhivanditvaa' in the following:

abhivandiya -- abhipubbo vandadhaatu vandane, abhi aadarena vanditvaa
ti abhivandiya.

Note that 'aadarena' (with respect) gives the meaning of the prefix
'abhi', so we could translate 'abhivandiya' as 'having respectfully
saluted'.

Jim
 
 
835
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:04pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Dear Jim,
op 10-03-2004 02:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> 
> You'll find a section on 'action nouns' in Warder on p.138. Nouns with
> the primary affix 'ana' are very often action nouns. An example is
> 'dassana' (seeing). For examples of 'agent nouns' try looking in
> Warder's index under that name.
N: Thank you, that helped. I looked up both kinds. I also had in the Vis.
Tiika 'ana' quite a lot in compounds.
saadhana: I met this also in the Tiika, and thought: effecting, producing,
resulting. Does the word saadhaka help: accomplishing, effecting? Then
function would not be far removed from this meaning. >

J: I'm positive 'abhivandiya' is an
> absolutive with the 'ya' affix.
N: Yes, thank you. I found this also in Warder.
J: abhivandiya -- abhipubbo vandadhaatu vandane, abhi aadarena vanditvaa
> ti abhivandiya. 
> Note that 'aadarena' (with respect) gives the meaning of the prefix
> 'abhi', so we could translate 'abhivandiya' as 'having respectfully
> saluted'.
N: Thank you very much,
Nina.
 
 
836
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:12pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 5

 
    Dear Nina,

> > You'll find a section on 'action nouns' in Warder on p.138. Nouns
with
> > the primary affix 'ana' are very often action nouns. An example is
> > 'dassana' (seeing). For examples of 'agent nouns' try looking in
> > Warder's index under that name.
> N: Thank you, that helped. I looked up both kinds. I also had in the
Vis.
> Tiika 'ana' quite a lot in compounds.
> saadhana: I met this also in the Tiika, and thought: effecting,
producing,
> resulting. Does the word saadhaka help: accomplishing, effecting?
Then
> function would not be far removed from this meaning. >

I think the 'saadhana' in 'kattusaadhana', for example, is an agent
noun. One of the two meanings of saadhana given at Abh 890 is
'kaaraka', an agent noun; the other one being 'siddhi', suggesting
that in this sense it is an action noun. Both of them are likely
causative forms related to the causative verb 'saadheti'. I looked up
the affix 'ana' in Kaccaayana and was amazed at just how much more
complex its usage is. Properly speaking, 'ana' is a substitute of the
kit affix 'yu' which can denote an agent, an action, or an instrument,
and their causative forms. I have reproduced the sutta below so you
can see the many examples and how difficult it could be to understand
'ana' without any help. ('kaarite' refers to the causative; 'aka' is a
substitute of .nvu)

Kc 641. nudaadiihi yu.nvuunamanaananaakaananakaa sakaaritehi ca.
nuda suuda jana su luu hu pu bhuu ~naa asa samuiccevamaadiihi
dhaatuuhi, phanda citi aa.na iccevamaadiihi sakaaritehi ca yu.nvuuna.m
paccayaana.m ana aanana aka aananakaadesaa honti yathaasa"nkhya.m
kattari, bhaavakara.nesu ca.

kattari taava -- panudatiiti panuudano. eva.m suudano, janano,
sava.no, lavano, havano, pavano, bhavano, ~naa.no, asano, sama.no.

bhaave ca -- panudate panuudana.m. eva.m suudana.m, janana.m,
sava.na.m, lavana.m, havana.m, pavana.m, bhavana.m, ~naa.na.m,
asana.m, sama.na.m, sa~njaanana.m, kuyate kaanana.m.

kaarite ca -- phandaapiiyate phandaapana.m, cetaapiiyate cetaapana.m,
aa.naapiiyate aa.naapana.m.

kara.ne -- nudanti anenaati nuudana.m, eva.m suudana.m, janana.m,
sava.na.m, lava.na.m, havana.m, pavana.m, bhagana.m, ~naa.na.m,
asana.m, sava.na.m.

puna kattari -- nudatiiti nuudako, suudatiiti suudako, janetiiti
janako, su.notiiti saavako, lunaatiiti laavako, juhotiiti haavako,
punaatiiti paavako, bhavatiiti bhaavako, jaanaatiiti jaanako,
asatiiti asako, upaasatiiti upaasako, sametiiti samako.

kaarite tu -- phandaapayatiiti phandaapayako. eva.m aa.naapayako,
cetaapayako, sa~njaananako.

Jim
 
 
837
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:06pm
Subject: going away

 
    Dear All,

I won't be posting any more of the 'se.t.tho' series for a few weeks
as I'll be away -- visiting the family and stocking up on supplies.
I'll still be in touch online but in reduced mode.

Here's a bit of news. On Yong Peng's list someone mentioned a Buddhist
college in Toronto which was the first I'd ever heard of it. Anyway, I
used a Google search and found nalandacollege.ca -- the website of the
Nalanda College of Buddhist Studies. From reading through the webpages
I found out that there are plans to establish a Research Centre of
Excellence in Pali and Early Buddhist Studies which got me so
interested that I emailed them to find out more. I got a positive
response from Prof. Suwanda Sugunasiri, Founder of the College. He now
wants to meet with me for talks.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
838
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:05am
Subject: Re: going away

 
    Hi Jim!

Hope you have a nice trip, and good luck with the talks at the new 
Buddhist College! Hope you'll let us know how it goes. I'll be 
looking forward to the continuation of your posts.

take care,

/Rett
 
 
839
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:25am
Subject: Re: going away

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, rett <rett@t...> wrote:
> Hi Jim!
> 
> Hope you have a nice trip, and good luck with the talks at the new 
> Buddhist College! Hope you'll let us know how it goes. I'll be 
> looking forward to the continuation of your posts.
> 
> take care,
> 
> /Rett


I would like to join Rett in wishing you bon voyage and a happy family
reunion, as well as an interesting time at the college,

I also look forward to your posts when you get back,

Amara
 
 
840
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:20pm
Subject: Re: going away

 
    Dear Jim,
That sounds very interesting and could offer new perspectives. Please let us
know about this.
I hope you have a good trip.
All good wishes,
Nina. 
op 16-03-2004 02:06 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Here's a bit of news. On Yong Peng's list someone mentioned a Buddhist
> college in Toronto which was the first I'd ever heard of it. Anyway, I
> used a Google search and found nalandacollege.ca -- the website of the
> Nalanda College of Buddhist Studies.
 
 
841
From: Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:00am
Subject: Re: going away

 
    Dear Jim,

I too wish that you have a pleasant trip, and hope you will bring us
some goodies (literally) when you are back online.

metta,
Yong Peng

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
I won't be posting any more of the 'se.t.tho' series for a few weeks as
I'll be away -- visiting the family and stocking up on supplies. I'll
still be in touch online but in reduced mode.

Here's a bit of news. On Yong Peng's list someone mentioned a Buddhist
college in Toronto which was the first I'd ever heard of it. Anyway, I
used a Google search and found nalandacollege.ca -- the website of the
Nalanda College of Buddhist Studies. From reading through the webpages
I found out that there are plans to establish a Research Centre of
Excellence in Pali and Early Buddhist Studies which got me so
interested that I emailed them to find out more. I got a positive
response from Prof. Suwanda Sugunasiri, Founder of the College. He now
wants to meet with me for talks.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
842
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 3, 2004 8:30pm
Subject: Re: going away

 
    Thank-you Rett, Amara, Nina, and Yong Peng for all your good wishes on
my short holiday in a small nearby city (about a half hour drive
away). I'm now back at my country retreat and it won't be long before
I'll be posting more on Kaccayana's grammar. I'm planning to go down
to Toronto this summer to meet with Prof. Sugunasiri (founder and
president) of Nalanda College of Buddhist Studies. I will keep you all
posted on the outcome of the meeting.

In a couple of months I will be having cataract surgery on both eyes
(a month apart). So there will be some more interruptions in the
months ahead. I will be away for about three days in three weeks time
to see the eye doctor in preparation for surgery. I would like to be
done with all the surgery before I go to Toronto this summer.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
843
From: Nantawat Sitdhiraksa <sinsk@mahidol.ac.th> 
Date: Sun Apr 4, 2004 9:54pm
Subject: Re: going away

 
    Dear Jim,

I got the Nayasa in Burmese for you. Could you give me ur address. I try to mail it before I take off for a long songkran holiday.

Best wishes,

Num

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
844
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:12am
Subject: Re: going away

 
    Dear Num,

Thank-you very much for getting me a copy of the Nyasa which I really
look forward to. I'll send you my address off-list right away!

Best wishes on your songkran holiday,

Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> I got the Nayasa in Burmese for you. Could you give me ur address. I
try to mail it before I take off for a long songkran holiday.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Num
 
 
845
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 1:07pm
Subject: Re: going away

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Thank-you Rett, Amara, Nina, and Yong Peng for all your good wishes on
> my short holiday in a small nearby city (about a half hour drive
> away). I'm now back at my country retreat and it won't be long before
> I'll be posting more on Kaccayana's grammar. I'm planning to go down
> to Toronto this summer to meet with Prof. Sugunasiri (founder and
> president) of Nalanda College of Buddhist Studies. I will keep you all
> posted on the outcome of the meeting.
> 
> In a couple of months I will be having cataract surgery on both eyes
> (a month apart). So there will be some more interruptions in the
> months ahead. I will be away for about three days in three weeks time
> to see the eye doctor in preparation for surgery. I would like to be
> done with all the surgery before I go to Toronto this summer.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Welcome back, Jim,

It's great the hear that we will be continuing with the Kaccayana. I
also look forward to hearing more about the Canadian Nalanda, and wish
you every success from the eye operation to come,

Amara

And bon voyage, Num, have a nice holiday!
 
 
846
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:12pm
Subject: se.t.tho -- derivation 6

 
    Derivation 6

Text: sundare satipa.t.thaanaadibhede dhamme eseti buddhetiiti vaa
se.t.tho. hetukattusaadhanoya.m. supubba-esadhaatu buddhiya.m ta. ta.m
se.t.tha.m. -- Namakkaara.tiikaa, p.11

Translation: Or, he increases, he makes grow the beautiful dhammas in
the category of satipa.t.thaana and so on; thus 'se.t.tho'. This
(=se.t.tho) has the function of the causal agent. The root 'esa' in
the sense of increase or growth, preceded by the prefix 'su', 'ta'
(the past participle affix). That 'se.t.tha.m' (accusative singular).

Comments:

1) On "eseti buddheti". Both verbs are causative forms. The
Saddaniiti, p.446 lists the root for the first verb in: "926 esa
buddhiya.m. esati." The CPD has an entry (1 of 6) for the verb 'esati'
with the meaning of "to be wise, understand" and derives it from the
foregoing Sadd 926 root but takes the 'buddhiya.m' to be from the root
'budh' (to understand) which may be an error. In footnote b (Sadd
p.446) the 'buddhiya.m' is taken to be a by-form of 'vuddhiya.m' on
the basis of the Burmese nissaya gloss: 'pvaa3'. Not being sure if
this word really meant 'increase', I checked with Suan Lu Zaw and with
his kind permission I quote his answer (Apr. 9) as follows:

****
The Burmses term "pvaa: / pwaa:" means, exactly as you said, increase,
growth, escalation, which are the equivalent meanings of the Pali term
"vuddhi".

The colon signs are used in Burmese script to indicate the highest
tone or the 3rd tone among the three tones. Burmse has only three
tones, by the way.

The first tone "pwa" means to swell, inflate, bloat, puff up, which
are the physical aspects of the meanings of vuddhi. The third tone
"pwaa:" covers both physical and mental meanings of vuddhi.

Thus, the first tone and the third tone for the Burmese "pw(a)" are
related as you can see.

The second tone "pwaa" has the meaning of loudness and/or muchness of
speech. So we can also see some aspects of increase in the context od
sound and speech. <endquote>
****

'buddheti' seems to be a by-form of the causative 'vaddheti' as far as
I can tell. There are quite a number of variations on the stem (which
could be a cause for confusion): vaddh- --> vuddh-, buddh- &
va.d.dh- --> vu.d.dh-, bu.d.dh-. 'buddheti' is extremely rare as the
only other occurrence with the same meaning I could find is in the
same Namakkaara-.tiikaa, p.200 as a gloss for 'va.d.dheti' which
lends further support for the meaning of 'he increases' instead of 'he
causes to understand'.

2) The meaning of this derivation of 'se.t.tho' is 'increaser of the
beautiful (dhammas)'. Instead of 'increaser', 'grower' or 'propagator'
are other possible alternatives.

Best wishes,
Jim

847
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:03pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 6

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for this, and also Suan. See below, an observation.
op 11-04-2004 02:12 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Derivation 6
the 'buddhiya.m' is taken to be a by-form of 'vuddhiya.m' on
> the basis of the Burmese nissaya gloss: 'pvaa3'.
N: I could be easily led astray, we are inclined to think at once of
awakening. In my Tiika to Vis.XIV, 76, I have now two forms with bhu: on
Vis. 76, about apodhaatu: siitabuddhi and u.nhabuddhi. Also: in the sens of
increase. The PED also mentions this possibility, refering to Vis.
I meet quite often the variation of vh, bh. I always watch out when I see
bh. Avyaakata and abhyaakata. The pronunciation must be in between, I read
before about b and v.
Nina.
 
 
 848
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:41pm
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- a correction

 
    Dear Jim,
A correction: apodhaatu should be tejodhaatu, of course.
Nina.
N wrote: I could be easily led astray, we are inclined to think at once of
awakening. In my Tiika to Vis.XIV, 76, I have now two forms with bhu: on
Vis. 76, about apodhaatu: siitabuddhi and u.nhabuddhi. Also: in the sens of
increase.
 
 
849
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:55am
Subject: Re: se.t.tho -- derivation 6

 
    [I sent this message yesterday but it hasn't come through yet. This is
a duplicate and my apology if you receive the original as well.]

Dear Nina,

Thanks for your observations. I think the main reason behind the v -->
b phenomenon, especially before a 'y', is the fact that many Asians
don't have a 'v' sound in their native language and so they pronounce
it as a 'w' instead but this won't work in front of a 'y' and so the
'w' then changes into a 'b'.

This is the last derivation on se.t.tho. What I'd like to do next is
to summarize all 6 derivations and organize all the bits of linguistic
data pertaining to them in a systematic layout. After that I'll move
on to the next word 'tilokamahita.m'.

Yesterday I received a heavy parcel of 13 Pali books from Thailand.
One of the books is a commentary on Kaccaayana called the
Kaccaayana-suttaniddesa which I will make use of in our study. The
books are all in the Thai script which I will have to get used to. The
other books I got are the Pa.tisambhidaamagga-ga.n.thipada,
Visuddhimagga-cuu.la.tiikaa, Saddaniiti, and the Nettippakara.na with
its commentary and two .tiikaas. One other book is a grammatical one
on the Ganthaabhara.na with commentary but most of it is in the Thai
language which I don't know. You may remember a discussion that came
up here in June 2002 starting with message 498 when I had asked what
the twelvefold classification of the dhammaaramma.na-s was (mentioned
at Pa.tis-a I 79). I thought the answer could be found in the
Pa.tis-ga.n.thipada which I didn't have at the time. Now that I have
it I was able to find an explanation today on p. 147: "ajjhattikaani
chaapi ca, tayo ca khandhaa aruupino, ruupampi sukhuma.m, nibbaanampi
ca, pa~n~natti caa"ti dhammabhuutaa visayaa ti dvaadasavidhatta.m
sandhaayaaha: "dvaadasabhedaa"ti.

Best wishes,
Jim

> > Derivation 6
> the 'buddhiya.m' is taken to be a by-form of 'vuddhiya.m' on
> > the basis of the Burmese nissaya gloss: 'pvaa3'.
> N: I could be easily led astray, we are inclined to think at once of
> awakening. In my Tiika to Vis.XIV, 76, I have now two forms with
bhu: on
> Vis. 76, about apodhaatu: siitabuddhi and u.nhabuddhi. Also: in the
sens of
> increase. The PED also mentions this possibility, refering to Vis.
> I meet quite often the variation of vh, bh. I always watch out when
I see
> bh. Avyaakata and abhyaakata. The pronunciation must be in between,
I read
> before about b and v.
> Nina.
 
 
850
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:15pm
Subject: test

 
    test
 
 
851
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:42pm
Subject: just checking

 
    Dear Nina (and all),

I'm checking to see if you got my palistudy reply to your two earlier
messages. I had some server problems with my reply not getting
through. On Wednesday I posted a reply to your message which neither
made it to the archives nor back to me. On the next day I sent a
duplicate which made it to the archives but not back to me. This
leaves me wondering if you (or the other members) ever received my
message. If not, I can forward you the reply offlist or you can read
it in the archives (# 849). If you had gotten that message please
disregard this one. I have just tested palistudy and everything seems
to be working okay now.

Jim
 
 
852
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Apr 18, 2004 1:24pm
Subject: Pali courses at universities

 
    Dear members,

I came across an interesting webpage outlining the curriculum for a
Bachelor of Art's degree in Pali at the Mahachulalongkornrajvidyalaya
University in Bangkok at the following url:

http://www.mcu.ac.th/curriculum/English/Buddhism/Pali.html

Here are some of the courses offered:

<< 4.3 Major Subjects not fewer than 48 Credits
4.3.1 Required Subjects 32 Credits
102 301 Advanced Pali Grammar I 2 (2-0-4)
102 302 Usage of Pali I 3 (3-0-6)
102 303 Jataka Literature 2 (2-0-4)
102 304 Pali Literature II 2 (2-0-4)
102 305 Advanced Pali Grammar II 2 (2-0-4)
102 306 Usage of Pali II 3 (3-0-6)
102 307 Pali Linguistics 2 (2-0-4)
102 308 Analytical Studies of Tipitaka I 2 (2-0-4)
102 401 Advanced Pali Grammar III 2 (2-0-4)
102 402 Prosody 2 (2-0-4)
102 403 Analytical Studies of Tipitaka II 2 (2-0-4)
102 404 Pali Paritta 2 (2-0-4)
102 405 Relation of Tipitaka 2 (2-0-4)
102 406 Analytical Studies of Visuddhimagga 2 (2-0-4)
102 407 Seminar on Pali 2 (2-0-4)

4.3.2 Elective Subjects 16 Credits
102 309 Pali Chronicles in Sri Lanka 2 (2-0-4)
102 310 Pali Work in Thailand 2 (2-0-4)
102 311 Analytical Studies of Milindapanha 2 (2-0-4)
102 312 Analytical Studies of Mangalatthadipani 2 (2-0-4)
102 313 Pali Literature III 2 (2-0-4)
102 314 Methods of Teaching Pali 2 (2-0-4)
102 315 Pali Scripts 2 (2-0-4)
102 316 Pali Literature Analysis 2 (2-0-4)
102 317 Comparative Study of Pali and Thai Literatures 2 (2-0-4)
102 408 Dhammapada Literature 2 (2-0-4)
102 409 Analytical Studies of Kathavatthu 2 (2-0-4)
102 410 Analytical Studies of Abhidhammattha Sangaha 2 (2-0-4)
102 411 Pali Conversation 2 (2-0-4)
102 412 Analytical Studies of Tipitaka III 2 (2-0-4)
102 413 Mahayana Literature 2 (2-0-4)
102 414 Asoka Edict 2 (2-0-4)
102 415 Research Methodology of Pali 2 (2-0-4)
102 416 Seminar on Tipitaka 2 (2-0-4) >>

<end of quote>

Although the details are given in English, I'm not sure if the courses
are actually taught in English or just Thai only. If you read the
details of the courses for Pali grammar you'll see that it's
Kaccayana, the Ruupasiddhi, and so on that are being studied just like
here in our group. I'm not aware of such an abundance of Pali courses
offered at any university outside of India, Sri Lanka, or SE Asia. Not
too long ago I checked to see if Pali was still being offered at the
University of Toronto which A.K. Warder taught there for many years
before he retired. In the late 70s I once attended a Pali class of his
with a friend of mine who was his only student. Pali is no longer
offered there and Prof. Sugunasiri of Nalanda College also confirmed
this for me.

I have just updated the group's (public) homepage at:

http://ca.geocities.com/palistudy/ .

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
853
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:33pm
Subject: the Nyaasa arrives!

 
    Dear all,

Today, it was a great pleasure to have received the Nyaasa text in the
mail from Num, one of our Thai members. Num, thank-you very much, you
have done me and the group a great service! I searched the online
catalogues of the Library of Congress, the British Library, and the
University of Toronto but no match or description could be found for
this particular book. I'm getting the impression that this book is
quite a rare one for any individual or institution to possess. I will
give a brief description of it.

I thought that it might come as a photocopy in loose sheets but this
was not the case. Instead, it came as a new hard bound book which
appears to be a reprint or a ?photocopy? of the original 1929 edition
in the Burmese script but no date or information is given about the
reproduction. The title page is beautifully designed with some
intricate linework forming the borders around the page. The book was
originally published by Zabu Press, Meitswe in 1929. Much of the
writing on the title page is in the Burmese language which I don't
understand and cannot yet convert to a romanized script so I can't
tell yet who edited the book. The author is given as Vajirabuddhi
which is different from that given in DPPN and elsewhere as
Vimalabuddhi. The book is also known under the title of
Mukhamattadiipanii (abbreviated as Mmd in the CPD). The book is fairly
thick at 504 pages (28 + 476). The first part with 28 pages contains
all the 673 suttas of Kaccayana's grammar. The second (main) part
begins as follows with the first of two introductory verses:

namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.

[1-sandhi-pariccheda]

buddha.m visuddhamavisuddhajanassa buddhi,
sampaapaka.m sakalalokavimohakassa,
mohassa dha.msakamapissa suvuttadhamma.m,
natvaana sa.mghamanaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m.

******
At first I didn't have a clue what the 'anagh' meant in the last part
and thought for sure there must be some mistake. I later found that
'anagha' is indeed a real Pali word (meaning: sinless, pure). Although
for the most part the print quality is quite good, some of the
characters are only partially printed as, for instance, an 'o' looking
like a 'c'. I will have to be extra careful as some of the character
combinations can be easily confused. It's hard to distinguish between
a 'vi' and a 'pi'. I'll try my best at transcribing this valuable and
rare text for our study.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
854
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:17pm
Subject: Re: the Nyaasa arrives!

 
    it is said as nyata in burmese .The library of congress has a nitya of in in burmese.my copy is 1933 tudhammavadi press.
Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:Dear all,

Today, it was a great pleasure to have received the Nyaasa text in the
mail from Num, one of our Thai members. Num, thank-you very much, you
have done me and the group a great service! I searched the online
catalogues of the Library of Congress, the British Library, and the
University of Toronto but no match or description could be found for
this particular book. I'm getting the impression that this book is
quite a rare one for any individual or institution to possess. I will
give a brief description of it.

I thought that it might come as a photocopy in loose sheets but this
was not the case. Instead, it came as a new hard bound book which
appears to be a reprint or a ?photocopy? of the original 1929 edition
in the Burmese script but no date or information is given about the
reproduction. The title page is beautifully designed with some
intricate linework forming the borders around the page. The book was
originally published by Zabu Press, Meitswe in 1929. Much of the
writing on the title page is in the Burmese language which I don't
understand and cannot yet convert to a romanized script so I can't
tell yet who edited the book. The author is given as Vajirabuddhi
which is different from that given in DPPN and elsewhere as
Vimalabuddhi. The book is also known under the title of
Mukhamattadiipanii (abbreviated as Mmd in the CPD). The book is fairly
thick at 504 pages (28 + 476). The first part with 28 pages contains
all the 673 suttas of Kaccayana's grammar. The second (main) part
begins as follows with the first of two introductory verses:

namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.

[1-sandhi-pariccheda]

buddha.m visuddhamavisuddhajanassa buddhi,
sampaapaka.m sakalalokavimohakassa,
mohassa dha.msakamapissa suvuttadhamma.m,
natvaana sa.mghamanaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m.

******
At first I didn't have a clue what the 'anagh' meant in the last part
and thought for sure there must be some mistake. I later found that
'anagha' is indeed a real Pali word (meaning: sinless, pure). Although
for the most part the print quality is quite good, some of the
characters are only partially printed as, for instance, an 'o' looking
like a 'c'. I will have to be extra careful as some of the character
combinations can be easily confused. It's hard to distinguish between
a 'vi' and a 'pi'. I'll try my best at transcribing this valuable and
rare text for our study.

Best wishes,
Jim





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
855
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:48am
Subject: nyata

 
    Dear Jim,
Are there any address of the wat printed in the kaccayanasuttanidesa you got .
They should send you nyasa of 2522 wat tamao version which is clearer in thai script.
S is T in burmese



---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
856
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:39pm
Subject: Re: nyata

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

> Dear Jim,
> Are there any address of the wat printed in the
kaccayanasuttanidesa you got .
> They should send you nyasa of 2522 wat tamao version which is
clearer in thai script.
> S is T in burmese

My copy of the Kaccayanasuttaniddesa is entirely in the Thai script
except for Roman numerals. There may be an address on the bottom of
the back of the title page. I'm only now just getting familiar with
the Thai script for Pali, and I don't know how to romanize the Thai or
Burmese language. But I have some documentation on the standards used
for transcribing these languages. I just have to spend some time on
it. During the meantime, I can get the address from Amara.

In response to your earlier message:

<< it is said as nyata in burmese .The library of congress has a nitya
of in in burmese.my copy is 1933 tudhammavadi press.>>

The only catalogue description of the Nyaasa I could find in the
Library of Congress is the following which is a different book:

Author: Vimalabuddhi.
Uniform Title: Nyasa. Burmese
Title: Nyatha nithaya / ѯanalankarabhi
Saddhammadhaja Hsin Te Hsa ya taw.
Published: Yan kon : Kawi Myet hman, 1285- [1923-
Description: v. <1- > ; 25 cm.
LC Call No.: PK1017.V512
====

I think I'll be able to make out most of the obscure characters in my
copy. I hope that you will help me solve some of the really difficult
readings from time to time by checking with your copy. There seems to
be a problem in the third line of the second introductory verse as
follows:

"paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha~n~nuu,"

The number of syllables in each of the other lines of the two verses
is 14. This line has only 13 making me think that there is a missing
syllable in '-niccha~n~nuu' as I believe there should be a short
syllable before the -'a~n~nuu' part. I'm looking at the possibility of
a 'nicchaya~n~nuu' instead. Do you think you could check your copy on
this point? The Nyaasa (or nyata, nyatha) looks like a really
interesting text to study. Thanks for urging me to get a copy.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
857
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:31pm
Subject: Re: nyata

 
    It should be s for th but c for s,t for t to be accurate.
The book in library of congress is line per line tanslation which i have the leaves copy so i didn't photocopy it yet.As you can see photocopy the book a century old is difficult.The transaltion is very important.That is why i won't photocopy the book for anyone because the book cannot sustain the phtocopying job.
I don't expect any good book from thailand.There are thesis of master and phd degree from thailand but unpublished.The course you mention earlier is just in basic pali for bachelor degree.Burmese and sri lanka has even better course.
I am away fom my house ,just wait i go home and check.




Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Dear Teng Kee,

> Dear Jim,
> Are there any address of the wat printed in the
kaccayanasuttanidesa you got .
> They should send you nyasa of 2522 wat tamao version which is
clearer in thai script.
> S is T in burmese

My copy of the Kaccayanasuttaniddesa is entirely in the Thai script
except for Roman numerals. There may be an address on the bottom of
the back of the title page. I'm only now just getting familiar with
the Thai script for Pali, and I don't know how to romanize the Thai or
Burmese language. But I have some documentation on the standards used
for transcribing these languages. I just have to spend some time on
it. During the meantime, I can get the address from Amara.

In response to your earlier message:

<< it is said as nyata in burmese .The library of congress has a nitya
of in in burmese.my copy is 1933 tudhammavadi press.>>

The only catalogue description of the Nyaasa I could find in the
Library of Congress is the following which is a different book:

Author: Vimalabuddhi.
Uniform Title: Nyasa. Burmese
Title: Nyatha nithaya / ѯanalankarabhi
Saddhammadhaja Hsin Te Hsa ya taw.
Published: Yan kon : Kawi Myet hman, 1285- [1923-
Description: v. <1- > ; 25 cm.
LC Call No.: PK1017.V512
====

I think I'll be able to make out most of the obscure characters in my
copy. I hope that you will help me solve some of the really difficult
readings from time to time by checking with your copy. There seems to
be a problem in the third line of the second introductory verse as
follows:

"paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha~n~nuu,"

The number of syllables in each of the other lines of the two verses
is 14. This line has only 13 making me think that there is a missing
syllable in '-niccha~n~nuu' as I believe there should be a short
syllable before the -'a~n~nuu' part. I'm looking at the possibility of
a 'nicchaya~n~nuu' instead. Do you think you could check your copy on
this point? The Nyaasa (or nyata, nyatha) looks like a really
interesting text to study. Thanks for urging me to get a copy.

Best wishes,
Jim






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---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
858
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:57pm
Subject: Re: nyata

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

Thanks for the tips on transliterating Burmese. Are you saying that
your 1933 copy is an original print edition of that year, that is to
say, really old? I assume the line by line translation is the Burmese
nissaya. Today I spent a lot of time transcribing a full page of my
text and found it very hard going for some parts of it but I think
I've solved most of the problems and now have a reasonably good etext
draft of the first two pages of the Nyaasa. As our Kaccayana study
progresses I'll keep adding more to the Nyaasa etext. I will also be
doing the same for the Kaccayanasuttaniddesa which will be easier to
transcribe as the print quality of it is very good. I understand that
Sayadaw U Silananda has a draft copy of the Nyaasa on the computer. I
find most of the grammar texts available from the SLTP site and on the
CSCD disk are full of errors and not too reliable. It's best to use
the printed books until the online ones are corrected and improved
greatly. I look forward to seeing the reading you have for the third
line of the 2nd verse.

Best wishes,
Jim

<<It should be s for th but c for s,t for t to be accurate.
The book in library of congress is line per line tanslation which i
have the leaves copy so i didn't photocopy it yet.As you can see
photocopy the book a century old is difficult.The transaltion is very
important.That is why i won't photocopy the book for anyone because
the book cannot sustain the phtocopying job.
I don't expect any good book from thailand.There are thesis of master
and phd degree from thailand but unpublished.The course you mention
earlier is just in basic pali for bachelor degree.Burmese and sri
lanka has even better course.
I am away fom my house ,just wait i go home and check.>>
 
 
859
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:08pm
Subject: Re: nyata

 
    Yes,there is a ya before annu

Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:Dear Teng Kee,

> Dear Jim,
> Are there any address of the wat printed in the
kaccayanasuttanidesa you got .
> They should send you nyasa of 2522 wat tamao version which is
clearer in thai script.
> S is T in burmese

My copy of the Kaccayanasuttaniddesa is entirely in the Thai script
except for Roman numerals. There may be an address on the bottom of
the back of the title page. I'm only now just getting familiar with
the Thai script for Pali, and I don't know how to romanize the Thai or
Burmese language. But I have some documentation on the standards used
for transcribing these languages. I just have to spend some time on
it. During the meantime, I can get the address from Amara.

In response to your earlier message:

<< it is said as nyata in burmese .The library of congress has a nitya
of in in burmese.my copy is 1933 tudhammavadi press.>>

The only catalogue description of the Nyaasa I could find in the
Library of Congress is the following which is a different book:

Author: Vimalabuddhi.
Uniform Title: Ny#30045;sa. Burmese
Title: Nyath#28705; n#29196;th#28705;y#28705; / #25113;a#29349;#30045;la#34045;k#30045;r#30045;bhi
Saddhammadhaja Hsin T#30142; Hs#28705; ya taw.
Published: Yan kon : K#28705;w#29196; Myet hman, 1285- [1923-
Description: v. <1- > ; 25 cm.
LC Call No.: PK1017.V512
====

I think I'll be able to make out most of the obscure characters in my
copy. I hope that you will help me solve some of the really difficult
readings from time to time by checking with your copy. There seems to
be a problem in the third line of the second introductory verse as
follows:

"paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha~n~nuu,"

The number of syllables in each of the other lines of the two verses
is 14. This line has only 13 making me think that there is a missing
syllable in '-niccha~n~nuu' as I believe there should be a short
syllable before the -'a~n~nuu' part. I'm looking at the possibility of
a 'nicchaya~n~nuu' instead. Do you think you could check your copy on
this point? The Nyaasa (or nyata, nyatha) looks like a really
interesting text to study. Thanks for urging me to get a copy.

Best wishes,
Jim






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860
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:19pm
Subject: Pitaka tamaing

 
    Jim,
I think you must have more copies like thai and srilanka version to make any edition.There will be more errors when you try to make with a just one copy.Why you want to do it.Just study first.
There are three translations of nyatha and one for kaccayana suttaniddesa mentioned in pitakataming which are very old.I don't think silananda make a copy by comparing with srilanka and thai version.
we cannot find tran of these good works from thai or srilanka









Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Dear Teng Kee,

Thanks for the tips on transliterating Burmese. Are you saying that
your 1933 copy is an original print edition of that year, that is to
say, really old? I assume the line by line translation is the Burmese
nissaya. Today I spent a lot of time transcribing a full page of my
text and found it very hard going for some parts of it but I think
I've solved most of the problems and now have a reasonably good etext
draft of the first two pages of the Nyaasa. As our Kaccayana study
progresses I'll keep adding more to the Nyaasa etext. I will also be
doing the same for the Kaccayanasuttaniddesa which will be easier to
transcribe as the print quality of it is very good. I understand that
Sayadaw U Silananda has a draft copy of the Nyaasa on the computer. I
find most of the grammar texts available from the SLTP site and on the
CSCD disk are full of errors and not too reliable. It's best to use
the printed books until the online ones are corrected and improved
greatly. I look forward to seeing the reading you have for the third
line of the 2nd verse.

Best wishes,
Jim

<The book in library of congress is line per line tanslation which i
have the leaves copy so i didn't photocopy it yet.As you can see
photocopy the book a century old is difficult.The transaltion is very
important.That is why i won't photocopy the book for anyone because
the book cannot sustain the phtocopying job.
I don't expect any good book from thailand.There are thesis of master
and phd degree from thailand but unpublished.The course you mention
earlier is just in basic pali for bachelor degree.Burmese and sri
lanka has even better course.
I am away fom my house ,just wait i go home and check.>>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
861
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:37pm
Subject: Re: Pitaka tamaing

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

Thanks for verifying the 'y' before '-a~n~nuu' which is definitely not
in my copy. I agree I would need more editions of the Nyaasa for
greater accuracy in the readings. But for now I'm only transcribing
small portions at a time for the sake of study and for becoming more
familiar with it. I can only work with what I have and it's fortunate
that I even have the text on hand to work with.

I'll be away for a few days.

Jim

> Jim,
> I think you must have more copies like thai and srilanka version to
make any edition.There will be more errors when you try to make with a
just one copy.Why you want to do it.Just study first.
> There are three translations of nyatha and one for kaccayana
suttaniddesa mentioned in pitakataming which are very old.I don't
think silananda make a copy by comparing with srilanka and thai
version.
> we cannot find tran of these good works from thai or srilanka
 
 
862
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun May 2, 2004 4:02pm
Subject: update

 
    Dear members,

Just wanted to let you know that for most of this month I won't be
contributing much to our ongoing study of Kaccayana. This is because I
will be having my first cataract surgery on May 12 and will be away
from my Pali library for about two weeks starting next weekend. The
surgery date came much sooner than I had anticipated. Hopefully, the
surgery will be a success and that my eyesight will be greatly
improved as a result.

I have been working on the two commentaries on Kaccayana called the
Nyaasa and the Suttaniddesa which involves transcribing the first few
pages from each and then to try and understand what it all means and
then attempt a translation. I would like to incorporate these two
texts into our study of Kaccayana's grammar in addition to some
fragmentary passages from the Kaccaayana-va.n.nanaa. I'm still going
to try and get the full text of the latter. I have also done some work
on a summary of the six derivations of 'se.t.tho'.

Another name for the Nyaasa text is Mukhamattadiipanii. Does anyone
know off-hand what the meaning of 'mukhamatta-' might be here?

Best wishes and a happy Wesak to you all!

Jim
 
 
863
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon May 3, 2004 2:56am
Subject: Re: update

 
    Hi Jim,

Happy Wesak and best of luck with the eye-surgery. Show them 
sky-flowers who's boss! I'm looking forward to your return.

I just realized that I'm not sure what the status was of Senart 
(which includes a commentary, tho I'm not sure which one). I've got 
it, though I've been swamped by another project and won't be able to 
get seriously into Pali Vyakarana until the Fall. Is there a need for 
photocopies?

>Another name for the Nyaasa text is Mukhamattadiipanii. Does anyone
>know off-hand what the meaning of 'mukhamatta-' might be here?

Just guessing, but I wonder if it might mean 'introductory' i.e. 
merely the front, beginning? Otherwise, my first guess was like the 
Tina Turner song 'Simply the Best'.

best regards,

/Rett
 
 
864
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 3, 2004 11:23am
Subject: Re: update

 
    Hi Rett,

> I just realized that I'm not sure what the status was of Senart
> (which includes a commentary, tho I'm not sure which one). I've got
> it, though I've been swamped by another project and won't be able to
> get seriously into Pali Vyakarana until the Fall. Is there a need
for
> photocopies?

I don't think there's any pressing need for a photocopy of Senart's
book at the present time. When I go to Toronto later this summer, I
plan to visit the U of Toronto library to look at some of the Pali
grammatical texts there including Senart's which I might be able to
photocopy in part. I only have one printed copy of the
Kaccaayanavyaakara.na (in Burmese script) and two etext versions which
are full of errors. It would be good to get more printed copies in
other editions and scripts over the next while. The commentary in
Senart's book might be the vutti and payoga explanations of the
suttas.

That's fine with me if you won't be able to get into Pali Vyakarana
until the fall and good luck with your other project. I don't expect
that this subject, unpopular as it is, to get much attention in the
early stages. It's something that has interested me for a long time
but I had never gotten around to studying it in a more serious and
systematic way until now. I'll just continue to plod along slowly
regardless of the level of list participation. Comments, suggestions,
and contributions from list members will always be welcome and
appreciated.

> >Another name for the Nyaasa text is Mukhamattadiipanii. Does anyone
> >know off-hand what the meaning of 'mukhamatta-' might be here?
>
> Just guessing, but I wonder if it might mean 'introductory' i.e.
> merely the front, beginning? Otherwise, my first guess was like the
> Tina Turner song 'Simply the Best'.

Thank-you, that helps. I was thinking along the lines of
'introductory' too with 'entrance' or 'opening'. Peter Masefield
translates 'mukhamattaka.m' as 'merely as an introduction' (Udaana
Commentary, Vol. I, p. 338). At Vism XVII.182, there is the expression
'mukhamattappakaasana.m' which ~Naa.namoli translates as 'a statement
of the bare headings'. Perhaps in the context of Kaccayana's grammar
the bare headings might refer to the terse grammatical suttas or rules
only. If that's the case then a translation of Mukhamattadiipanii
could be 'An Elucidation of the Bare Headings'.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
865
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue May 4, 2004 6:06am
Subject: Re: update

 
    My inclination was to take mukha in the sense of 'principal, best, 
foremost part of anything'. So I would understand it as 'explaining 
just the most important part'. More idiomatically, 'Explaining the 
main part'.

But looking at the texts on my hard disk, it seems usually to be 
taken in the sense of 'entrance' by the later subcommentaries.

Kkh-.t: mukhamattanidassanan ti pavesopaayamattanidassana.m.

Sp-.t I 196 (Be): tatrida.m mukhamattanidassanan ti tassaa 
yathaavuttayuttiyaa paridiipane ida.mmukhamattanidassana.m; 
upaayamattanidassanan ti attho. mukha.m dvaara upaayo ti hi atthato 
eka.m.

Vin-vn-p.t: mukhamattan ti pavesadvaaramatta.m; niravasesato dassane 
papacabhiirukaana pubbe bhaya.m hotii ti sa'nkhepato khaadaniiyaani 
dassissan ti vutta.m hoti.

But:
Spk-p.t: vaggapeyyaalato pana imasmi.m satipa.t.thaanasa.myutte 
katipayavaggaa sa'ngaha.m aaruu.lhaa, tathaapi tesa.m 
atthavisesaabhaavato ekaccesu potthakesu mukhamatta.m dassetvaa 
sa.mkhittaa, ekaccesu atisa.mkhittaa va . . .

The expression mukhamatta occurs a number of times in the commentaries:

Yam-a 102: mukhamatta.m dassetvaa sa'nkhittaa. vitthaaro pana . . .

Nidd-a II 111: ayam ettha mukhamattanidassana.m; vitthaara.m pana 
icchantena Visuddhimagga.m oloketvaa gahetabba.m.

and a number of others.

The idea here seems to be that of setting out the main points of a 
topic in brief. Of course, that will necessarily function as an 
introduction. So the later explanation in terms of a gateway or means 
of entry also makes sense. Since Mmd is presumably a later work, we 
should probably follow the interpretation of the later 
subcommentaries. Perhaps also we should bear in mind that the title 
of a work is a literary conceit and might have been intended to be 
interpreted in more than one way.

Lance Cousins

> > >Another name for the Nyaasa text is Mukhamattadiipanii. Does anyone
>> >know off-hand what the meaning of 'mukhamatta-' might be here?
>>
>> Just guessing, but I wonder if it might mean 'introductory' i.e.
>> merely the front, beginning? Otherwise, my first guess was like the
>> Tina Turner song 'Simply the Best'.
>
>Thank-you, that helps. I was thinking along the lines of
>'introductory' too with 'entrance' or 'opening'. Peter Masefield
>translates 'mukhamattaka.m' as 'merely as an introduction' (Udaana
>Commentary, Vol. I, p. 338). At Vism XVII.182, there is the expression
>'mukhamattappakaasana.m' which ~Naa.namoli translates as 'a statement
>of the bare headings'. Perhaps in the context of Kaccayana's grammar
>the bare headings might refer to the terse grammatical suttas or rules
>only. If that's the case then a translation of Mukhamattadiipanii
>could be 'An Elucidation of the Bare Headings'.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
 
 
866
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue May 4, 2004 7:42pm
Subject: Re: update (Mmd)

 
    Dear Lance,

Thank-you very much and welcome! I'll just add a few comments.

> My inclination was to take mukha in the sense of 'principal, best,
> foremost part of anything'. So I would understand it as 'explaining
> just the most important part'. More idiomatically, 'Explaining the
> main part'.

The Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh) gives the following 4 senses of
'mukha': mukhyopaayesu vadane aadismi.m mukham iirita.m / --Abh 913
.tiikaa: mukhye padhaane. upaaye hetumhi. vadane lapane. aadismi.m
pa.thame. I'd take the sense that you took it above to be in the
category of 'mukhye' (padhaane).

> But looking at the texts on my hard disk, it seems usually to be
> taken in the sense of 'entrance' by the later subcommentaries.
>
> Kkh-.t: mukhamattanidassanan ti pavesopaayamattanidassana.m.

This would be 'mukha' in the sense of 'upaaya', a way or means (of
entry).

Thanks for all the quotes which I have left out here.

> and a number of others.
>
> The idea here seems to be that of setting out the main points of a
> topic in brief. Of course, that will necessarily function as an
> introduction. So the later explanation in terms of a gateway or
means
> of entry also makes sense. Since Mmd is presumably a later work, we
> should probably follow the interpretation of the later
> subcommentaries. Perhaps also we should bear in mind that the title
> of a work is a literary conceit and might have been intended to be
> interpreted in more than one way.

That all sounds reasonable to me. Another helpful explanation of
'mukhamattanidassan.a.m' can be found in the .tiikaa for
Subodhaala"nkaara, v. 253 which too explains 'mukha' in the sense of a
door or entrance (avasesahetuuna.m ogaaha.nadvaaramattassa
nidassana.m). '-matta' is interpreted in the sense of avadhaara.na (=
eva) or saama~n~na (?). The whole passage would take quite a bit of
studying for me to get a better grasp of it though.

The word 'mukhamatta.m' occurs in the second introductory verse of
Mmd:

kaccaayana~nca muniva.n.nitabuddhimassa,
kaccaayanassa mukhamattamaha.m karissa.m,

And (having bowed to) Kaccaayana, I shall compose the Mukhamatta to
Kaccaayana who possesses an understanding praised by the Sage, . . .

Here, it seems better to leave the word 'mukhamatta' untranslated if
it represents a shortened version of the title of the work. I notice
that the Mmd is quoted twice in the Saddaniiti (12th cent.), thus
making it earlier.

Jim
 
 
867
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:32pm
Subject: another update

 
    Dear members,

Two months have quickly gone by since I posted my last message here on
May 4. My two cataract surgeries took place on May 12 and June 14 as
scheduled. They were both successful and I can now see much better.
What remains to be done is to get properly fitted with reading glasses
which won't take place until after my next eye appointment on August 3
when I get a new prescription. For now, I'm making do with an old
cheap pair of reading glasses for computer use but I have to use a
magnifying glass for reading print on paper which takes a lot longer
especially if I have to look up a word in a dictionary. I think it'll
be awhile yet before I can fully resume the study of Kaccaayana's
grammar but during the meantime I can try to get back into the routine
of studying Pali again and if I'm up to it I might even be able to
start posting again in the near future.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
868
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 0:11am
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Jim,
I am very glad that the operations were successful. I am looking forward to
your posts in the future, best wishes meanwhile,
Nina. 
op 06-07-2004 18:32 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Dear members,
> 
> Two months have quickly gone by since I posted my last message here on
> May 4.
 
 
869
From: Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 3:39am
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Jim,

congratulations. I wish you recover fast, and do have a good rest for
your eyes.

metta,
Yong Peng

--- nina van gorkom wrote:
I am very glad that the operations were successful. I am looking
forward to your posts in the future, best wishes meanwhile,

> op 06-07-2004 18:32 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> Dear members,
> 
> Two months have quickly gone by since I posted my last message here
on
> May 4.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
 
 
870
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:42am
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Jim,

I'm glad to hear that the operations went well. Take your time 
recoverin, and as I suppose the doctor might say, don't strain your 
eyes too much until they've fully healed. Be kind to those orbs. :-) 
I'm looking forward to continuing our grammar topics when the time 
comes around.

best regards

/Rett
 
 
871
From: J.A. Wibier <verzend@home.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:23am
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Jim,

Congratulations. I am glad that you are back and that the surgeries were 
successful. I will be looking forward to your further postings of 
Kaccaayana's grammar in the near future.
Best wishes,

Joop

>Dear members,
>
>Two months have quickly gone by since I posted my last message here on
>May 4. My two cataract surgeries took place on May 12 and June 14 as
>scheduled. They were both successful and I can now see much better.
>What remains to be done is to get properly fitted with reading glasses
>which won't take place until after my next eye appointment on August 3
>when I get a new prescription. For now, I'm making do with an old
>cheap pair of reading glasses for computer use but I have to use a
>magnifying glass for reading print on paper which takes a lot longer
>especially if I have to look up a word in a dictionary. I think it'll
>be awhile yet before I can fully resume the study of Kaccaayana's
>grammar but during the meantime I can try to get back into the routine
>of studying Pali again and if I'm up to it I might even be able to
>start posting again in the near future.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
 
 
872
From: J.A. Wibier <verzend@home.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:33am
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Jim,

Congratulations. I am glad that you are back and that the surgeries were 
successful. I will be looking forward to your further postings of 
Kaccaayana's grammar in the near future.
Best wishes,

Joop

>Dear members,
>
>Two months have quickly gone by since I posted my last message here on
>May 4. My two cataract surgeries took place on May 12 and June 14 as
>scheduled. They were both successful and I can now see much better.
>What remains to be done is to get properly fitted with reading glasses
>which won't take place until after my next eye appointment on August 3
>when I get a new prescription. For now, I'm making do with an old
>cheap pair of reading glasses for computer use but I have to use a
>magnifying glass for reading print on paper which takes a lot longer
>especially if I have to look up a word in a dictionary. I think it'll
>be awhile yet before I can fully resume the study of Kaccaayana's
>grammar but during the meantime I can try to get back into the routine
>of studying Pali again and if I'm up to it I might even be able to
>start posting again in the near future.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
 
 
873
From: J.A. Wibier <verzend@home.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 1:22pm
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Jim,

Congratulations. I am glad that you are back and that the surgeries were 
successful. I will be looking forward to your further postings of 
Kaccaayana's grammar in the near future.
Best wishes,

Joop

>Dear members,
>
>Two months have quickly gone by since I posted my last message here on
>May 4. My two cataract surgeries took place on May 12 and June 14 as
>scheduled. They were both successful and I can now see much better.
>What remains to be done is to get properly fitted with reading glasses
>which won't take place until after my next eye appointment on August 3
>when I get a new prescription. For now, I'm making do with an old
>cheap pair of reading glasses for computer use but I have to use a
>magnifying glass for reading print on paper which takes a lot longer
>especially if I have to look up a word in a dictionary. I think it'll
>be awhile yet before I can fully resume the study of Kaccaayana's
>grammar but during the meantime I can try to get back into the routine
>of studying Pali again and if I'm up to it I might even be able to
>start posting again in the near future.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
 
 
874
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:20am
Subject: Re: another update

 
    Dear Joop, Nina, Yong Peng, Rett, (and Amara offlist),

Thank-you all for your congratulations and kind thoughts! I look
forward to resuming the study of Kaccayana's grammar with you again in
the near future.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> Congratulations. I am glad that you are back and that the surgeries
were
> successful. I will be looking forward to your further postings of
> Kaccaayana's grammar in the near future.
> Best wishes,
>
> Joop
 
 
875
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:09pm
Subject: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear members,

Mmd is an abbreviation for Mukhamattadiipanii which is Vajirabuddhi's
introductory commentary on Kaccaayana's grammar. The Mmd is also
known under an alternative title of Nyaasa. I have transcribed the two
introductory verses of Mmd and present them here along with my attempt
at translating them. The syntax of the second verse is difficult for
me to work out satisfactorily. Any corrections or comments will be
much appreciated. The verses were taken from a reprint of a 1929
Burmese edition by Zabu Press, Rangoon. It has xxviii + 476 pages. I
think the verses have two omissions in it which I have inserted within
square brackets.

namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.

[1-sandhi-pariccheda]

buddha.m visuddham avisuddhajanassa buddhi[.m] /
sampaapaka.m sakalalokavimohakassa //
mohassa dha.msakam apissa suvuttadhamma.m /
natvaana sa.mgham anaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m //

Having bowed to the Buddha who causes impure people
To reach pure understanding, the Destroyer of the confusion
Confounding the entire world; also to His well-spoken Dhamma;
To the Sangha that is sinless, the utmost, worthy of offerings;

kaccaayana~nca muniva.n.nitabuddhimassa /
kaccaayanassa mukhamattamaha.m karissa.m //
paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuu /
laddhopadesam avalamba katassa tena //

And to Kaccaayana; of Kaccaayana who has the understanding
Praised by the Sage, I, knowing the investigations handed down
In succession and resting on the instruction obtained <therein?>
Shall compose an introduction to what was composed by him.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
876
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 10:02am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Jim,

As regards the first verse, I don't think it is necessary to add the 
anusvaara - the compound buddhisampaapaka.m can extend across the 
boundary between the first two paadas. If so, we have to take 
visuddham with buddha.m:

Having bowed to the Buddha who is pure [but] causes impure people
To reach understanding, . . .

In the second verse the addition of ya does seem necessary.

For the first line I would take muniva.n.nitabuddhim as describing 
kaccaayana~n:

And to Kaccaayana whose understanding was praised by the Sage

Is this a reference to the Buddha's description of Mahaakaccaana's 
ability to describe in detail what the Buddha has taught in brief ?

In post-commentarial works it is not unusual to add one's teacher 
after the three refuges.

I am still thinking about the last line !

Lance

>Mmd is an abbreviation for Mukhamattadiipanii which is Vajirabuddhi's
>introductory commentary on Kaccaayana's grammar. The Mmd is also
>known under an alternative title of Nyaasa. I have transcribed the two
>introductory verses of Mmd and present them here along with my attempt
>at translating them. The syntax of the second verse is difficult for
>me to work out satisfactorily. Any corrections or comments will be
>much appreciated. The verses were taken from a reprint of a 1929
>Burmese edition by Zabu Press, Rangoon. It has xxviii + 476 pages. I
>think the verses have two omissions in it which I have inserted within
>square brackets.
>
>namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.
>
>[1-sandhi-pariccheda]
>
>buddha.m visuddham avisuddhajanassa buddhi[.m] /
>sampaapaka.m sakalalokavimohakassa //
>mohassa dha.msakam apissa suvuttadhamma.m /
>natvaana sa.mgham anaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m //
>
>Having bowed to the Buddha who causes impure people
>To reach pure understanding, the Destroyer of the confusion
>Confounding the entire world; also to His well-spoken Dhamma;
>To the Sangha that is sinless, the utmost, worthy of offerings;
>
>kaccaayana~nca muniva.n.nitabuddhimassa /
>kaccaayanassa mukhamattamaha.m karissa.m //
>paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuu /
>laddhopadesam avalamba katassa tena //
>
>And to Kaccaayana; of Kaccaayana who has the understanding
>Praised by the Sage, I, knowing the investigations handed down
>In succession and resting on the instruction obtained <therein?>
>Shall compose an introduction to what was composed by him.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim

877
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:05pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Jim, Lance and all members of the group,

Thanks, Jim, for submitting these interesting dedicatory verses, and 
thanks Lance for adding to the reading. The two of you have forced me 
to wake up from my lazy Sunday and break out the books. I'd like to 
submit a first attempt at reading the syntax of the second verse.


>kaccaayana~nca muniva.n.nitabuddhimassa /
>kaccaayanassa mukhamattamaha.m karissa.m //
>paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuu /
>laddhopadesam avalamba katassa tena //
>
>And to Kaccaayana; of Kaccaayana who has the understanding
>Praised by the Sage, I, knowing the investigations handed down
>In succession and resting on the instruction obtained <therein?>
>Shall compose an introduction to what was composed by him.
>

First off, I agree with Lance that muniva.n.nitabuddhim is a 
bahuvrihi, to be taken together with kaccaayanam. That leaves 
everything from assa in the first pada onwards to be explained.

I don't think this is much different than what Jim was already 
thinking.The main difference is that laddhopadesam becomes the object 
of the genitive assa Kaccaayanassa. To put it in the form of an 
anvaya, the reading I'd try might look like this:

assa kaccaayanassa laddhopadesam avalamba
aha.m paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuu
tena katassa mukhamattam karissa.m

Relying on the received-teaching of this Kaccaayana
I, knowing the investigations handed down in succession,
shall compose an introduction to what was composed by him.

This takes the word order of the verse as being rather jumbled, but 
since the words kaccaayanassa and laddhopadesam both start the second 
halves of their respective lines, I think the recitation rhythm could 
support their being syntactically connected.

Comments? Corrections?

best wishes,

/Rett
 
 
878
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Lance,

Thank you for your helpful reply.

> As regards the first verse, I don't think it is necessary to add the
> anusvaara - the compound buddhisampaapaka.m can extend across the
> boundary between the first two paadas. If so, we have to take
> visuddham with buddha.m:
>
> Having bowed to the Buddha who is pure [but] causes impure people
> To reach understanding, . . .

I agree. Although I was aware that compounds can extend across the
boundary between two paadas, I unconsciously made the mistake of
thinking that it couldn't happen here merely because the two paadas
are on separate lines!! I think this was due to the fact that I'm more
used to seeing such compounds across paadas of 8 syllables that are
both on the same line and often separated by a hyphen or space at the
boundary. I think inserting an editorial hyphen (buddhi-) would help
avoid this mistake. This also made me rethink the boundary between the
last two paadas of the second verse. See my response to Rett on this.

> In the second verse the addition of ya does seem necessary.

In April, I asked Teng Kee, one of our contributors, to check his 1933
copy of a different Burmese publication and he confirmed the presence
of the 'ya' in it. It appears that my copy is printed from a photocopy
of the original and although most of the characters are clear enough,
some only appear partially and one has to fill in the gaps which I've
been able to do so far in nearly all cases.

> For the first line I would take muniva.n.nitabuddhim as describing
> kaccaayana~n:

I also agree with you on this. I mistakenly took '-buddhimassa' to be
an inflected form of 'buddhimaa' which would normally be either
'buddhimato' or 'buddhimantassa' in the dat. or gen. sing.

> And to Kaccaayana whose understanding was praised by the Sage

That reads a lot better.

> Is this a reference to the Buddha's description of Mahaakaccaana's
> ability to describe in detail what the Buddha has taught in brief ?

Yes, I think this might be so. This is also the Kaccaayana as
understood in the Saddaniiti, Suttaniddesa, and the Ruupasiddhi with
its .tiikaa. I know that in modern times Kaccaayana's grammar (as we
now have it) is not taken by scholars to be any earlier than the 7th
cent. A.D. However, it seems possible to me that at least the suttas
(some or all of them) could have originated from Mahaakaccaana while
the vutti and payoga parts of the grammar were the contributions of
later authors as described in the Kaccaayanabheda according to DPPN.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
879
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:28pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Hi Rett,

Thank you for weighing in with your take on the syntax of the second
verse.

> First off, I agree with Lance that muniva.n.nitabuddhim is a
> bahuvrihi, to be taken together with kaccaayanam. That leaves
> everything from assa in the first pada onwards to be explained.

In my response to Lance I admitted to making some mistakes. I think
the syntax of the first part up to but not including 'assa' is now
fairly straightforward and we're all in agreement. And as you say its
the syntax of the remaining part of the second verse that still needs
explaining.

> I don't think this is much different than what Jim was already
> thinking.The main difference is that laddhopadesam becomes the
object
> of the genitive assa Kaccaayanassa. To put it in the form of an
> anvaya, the reading I'd try might look like this:

I'm not sure what you mean by an 'anvaya'. Is this something you
picked up while learning Sanskrit?

> assa kaccaayanassa laddhopadesam avalamba
> aha.m paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuu
> tena katassa mukhamattam karissa.m
>
> Relying on the received-teaching of this Kaccaayana
> I, knowing the investigations handed down in succession,
> shall compose an introduction to what was composed by him.

Your rendering sounds plausible to me but I think it's worth
considering some other possibilities too. I thought of one where
laddhopadesam could be the final part of the preceding compound which
could then be translated as:

. . . <resting/relying> on the instruction obtained/received from
knowers(?) of the investigations handed down in succession . . .

The words: vinicchaya, nicchaya~n~nuu, and upadesa all look like
specialized words to me and I'm not sure what they are referring to.
'nicchaya~n~nuu' (which I have found no where in a CSCD search) could
be referring to the author(s) of a category of treatise(s) called
vinicchaya(s). Instead of the possessive relation of 'assa
kaccaayanassa' to 'laddhopadesam', could it not also stand on its own
as a point of reference? ie. "concerning this Kaccaayana, I shall
compose an introduction to what was composed by him, relying on . . .
in succession." I'm not sure if Vajirabuddhi intended 'mukhamatta' as
the title of the work or a generic term (an introduction). I noticed
something similar in the opening verse of Dignaaga's
Pramaa.nasamuccaya where he has only 'samuccaya.h' which Hattori took
as a truncated form of the book's title and inserted the 'Pramaa.na-'
part in front and in brackets.

> This takes the word order of the verse as being rather jumbled, but
> since the words kaccaayanassa and laddhopadesam both start the
second
> halves of their respective lines, I think the recitation rhythm
could
> support their being syntactically connected.

Interesting. That's an observation I wouldn't have thought of myself.

I think the next thing I'll do is to look for definitions of 'upadesa'
and 'vinicchaya' in my dictionaries and on the CSCD.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
880
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:14am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Hi Jim,

Interesting ideas. I definitely agree it's worth looking for more 
readings; the one I sent is admittedly a bit far-fetched. Finding one 
with a less jumbled word order would be more elegant.

About 'assa kaccaayanassa' being free-standing and just delineating 
the topic 'with regards to this kaccaayana': good question. I don't 
know. I did find something in Hinber (Kasussyntax der Pali) called 
the genitivus commodi, which might fit. There the genitive marks _for 
whose sake_ an action is taken. He even says that to clarify it, you 
can add atthaaya. If it is a case of that it could be expanded to:

assa kaccaayanassa [atthaaya] (for this kaccaayana's sake).

I don't know how to judge if this would be correct though. For one 
thing, would he say that of a teacher who has long since passed away? 
It's rather for the sake of the pupils that he writes an 
introduction, I would think. But it could perhaps be for K's sake in 
the sense of honoring him, or helping his instruction to be 
understood by later generations of pupils.

Another possibility (perhaps far-fetched as well) would be if 
'kaccaayana' there is a shortened form of the title of the work 
kaccaayanappakaranam. In this case it could be expanded to: assa 
kaccaayanappakaranassa mukhamatta.m kariasssa.m

or: I will make an introduction of this one's (k's) (work entitled) kaccaayana.

Though this would seem to be asking for confusion, since the 
shortened title of the work is identical with the name of the author. 
A final longshot would be if kaccaayana is actually from 
k_aa_ccaayana (initial lengthened aa) along the lines of the vriddhis 
in Bauddha from Buddha or Jaina from Jina. The law of Morae would 
then re-shorten the lengthened aa in kaaccaayana to kaccaayana. 'of 
this kacccaayanist (work, tradition)' But again, this would seem to 
be asking for confusion. Use only as last resort :-)

Your idea of making a single long compound out of paara.m-->upadesa 
looks interesting. That would take care of the question of who the 
upadesa is received from, instead of it just being 'received' in 
general (like we might say of the 'received' version of a text).

Anyhow, trying these various ideas out perhaps we can get something like:


anvaya:

assa kaccaayanassa [atthaaya]

paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuuladdhopadesam avalamba

aha.m tena katassa mukhamattam karissa.m

(By 'anvaya' I just mean rearranging the words in the verse into an 
order that reveals the syntax of the interpretation, as well as 
separating words written together, perhaps resolving some sandhis, 
stuff like that. I've seen the term used this way in some student 
editions of Sanskrit works)


Translation of above:

For the sake of this kaccaayana

relying on the instruction received from those knowledgeable about 
the investigations passed down in succession

I will make an introduction to what was composed by him.


This still leaves open the question of what exactly nicchaya and 
vinicchaya mean here, so I still just translate with 'investigations' 
as a placeholder for now.

I'm pretty sure that 'upadesa' refers to oral instruction, or a book 
written in a form that resembles this oral instruction, i.e. where a 
short statement is given, which is then explained at length in prose. 
(Perhaps it also suggest instruction for relative beginners???)

I would still like to leave open possibilities, like that katassa 
takes -upadesa as its genitive object, or that -uu is the end of 
its compund and is congruent with aha.m. But I agree with you, it 
seems tough to get a satisfactory final answer.

I'm looking forward to what you, and Lance and others, come up with. 
I hope we're getting closer.

best regards,

/Rett
 
 
881
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:12pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Jim,
I have some beginner's questions.
op 28-08-2004 19:09 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:>
> buddha.m visuddham avisuddhajanassa buddhi[.m] /
> sampaapaka.m sakalalokavimohakassa //
> mohassa dha.msakam apissa suvuttadhamma.m /
> natvaana sa.mgham anaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m //
N: natvaana, from namati: an unsual form to me. I found it in PED.
and this: anagh-uttama-dakkhi.neyya.m,
I have trouble with anagh. uttama: highest.
I also thought at first: buddhima, but it is : budhim assa, of him.
> 
>J: kaccaayana~nca muniva.n.nitabuddhimassa /
> kaccaayanassa mukhamattamaha.m karissa.m //
> paara.mparaabhatavinicchayaniccha[ya]~n~nuu /
> laddhopadesam avalamba katassa tena //
> 
> And to Kaccaayana; of Kaccaayana who has the understanding
> Praised by the Sage, I, knowing the investigations handed down
> In succession and resting on the instruction obtained <therein?>
> Shall compose an introduction to what was composed by him.
N: another option for leaning on: dependent on?
As to vinichaya: often used in Thai, when investigating a commentary.
Investigating the meaning. They say, come, let us vinichay.
Nina.
 
 
882
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Hi Rett,

Thanks for your input! As it was long, I haven't respond to all of it
and some parts I have deleted.

<< About 'assa kaccaayanassa' being free-standing and just delineating
the topic 'with regards to this kaccaayana': good question. I don't
know. I did find something in Hinber (Kasussyntax der Pali) called
the genitivus commodi, which might fit. There the genitive marks _for
whose sake_ an action is taken. He even says that to clarify it, you
can add atthaaya. If it is a case of that it could be expanded to:

assa kaccaayanassa [atthaaya] (for this kaccaayana's sake). >>

Jim:
Thanks also for describing this use of the genitivus commodi which
isn't familiar to me and for the other possibilities. I spent some
time going over the rules governing the use of the sixth case
(genitive) in both Kaccaayana's (8 rules) and Aggava.msa's (34 rules)
grammars and couldn't find any that would support my suggested
'free-standing' one and there doesn't seem to be any for the one you
just described which looks more like a dative to me. Syntax-wise, this
'assa kaccaayanassa' is the most problematic in the verse. I've been
taking another look at your first translation: "Relying on the
received-teaching of this Kaccaayana". This genitve relation of
'upadesa' to 'Kaccaayana' might work: ''relying on the (traditional)
teaching of this Kaccaayana (as handed down)". A question comes up,
however, as to whether it's correct to call this: "Kaccaayana's
traditional teaching or instruction" as I'm sure it had collected a
lot of commentary from others along the way.

[...]

Rett:
<< This still leaves open the question of what exactly nicchaya and
vinicchaya mean here, so I still just translate with 'investigations'
as a placeholder for now. >>

Jim:
I saw in the Saddaniiti (7.1.3.1) the two terms placed together as if
they were synonyms. I also remembered that some of the chapter titles
in the Padamaala begin with 'savinicchayo'. My guess is that a
'nicchaya~n~nuu' is someone who studies, understands, teaches, and
passes on the vinicchayas.

Rett:
<< I'm pretty sure that 'upadesa' refers to oral instruction, or a
book
written in a form that resembles this oral instruction, i.e. where a
short statement is given, which is then explained at length in prose.
(Perhaps it also suggest instruction for relative beginners???) >>

Jim:
I looked up 'upadesa' in the CPD and saw under 2b.: "traditional
instruction" with a reference to Abhidhaanappadiipikaa, v. 412 which
associates it with the word 'paarampariya.m'. I then looked up its
.tiikaa and found the following:

412. pajjaddha.m upadesaparamparaaya.m. pare ca pare ca paramparaa,
pubbaacariyaa. tato aabhata.m paarampariya.m. . . . aacariya.m
upagantvaa dissati uccaariiyatiiti upadeso, disii uccaara.ne, .no.

It is certainly helpful to find something like this as it shows a
clear relation of three words (paaramparaa, aabhata, upadesa) found in
the Mmd verse. This suggests to me that 'paaramparaa' (but paramparaa
in Abh) refers to the succession of ancient teachers (pubbaacariyaa)
from which the vinicchayas were passed along to the later
nicchaya~n~nuus.

Rett:
<< I would still like to leave open possibilities, like that katassa
takes -upadesa as its genitive object, or that -uu is the end of
its compund and is congruent with aha.m. But I agree with you, it
seems tough to get a satisfactory final answer. >>

Fair enough. I don't think the syntax problem is anywhere near being
solved. I don't know about you but I think I've gone about as far as I
can go on this and would be quite happy to set this matter aside for
another time when I have (hopefully) a better understanding of Pali
syntax.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
883
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:12am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Nina,

> > natvaana sa.mgham anaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m //
> N: natvaana, from namati: an unsual form to me. I found it in PED.
> and this: anagh-uttama-dakkhi.neyya.m,
> I have trouble with anagh. uttama: highest.
> I also thought at first: buddhima, but it is : budhim assa, of him.

I also had trouble with 'anagha' (an-agha) at first. You will find
'agha' (evil, etc.) in PED. Cone also has 'anagha' (without sin,
faultless). There is also a second 'agha' in the meaning of 'sky'. I
take all three words in the compound to be adjectives modifying
'sa.mgha'. Although the regular dat. or gen. sing. inflection of
'buddhimant-' is buddhamato or buddhamantassa, I'm now wondering if
this could differ if such words (in -ant, -vant, -mant) stand at the
end of a bahubbiihi compound. Just don't recall coming across such a
compound with these kinds of words at the end and seeing the
inflection of them in -assa, etc. Let's keep on the look out.

> N: another option for leaning on: dependent on?

Yes, I think that's another option. avalamba = avalambitvaa. For the
verb 'avalambati', Cone just gives: hangs down, rests upon.

> As to vinichaya: often used in Thai, when investigating a
commentary.
> Investigating the meaning. They say, come, let us vinichay.

Interesting... thanks!

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
884
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:20am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Incorporating some of the suggestions made I have:

And to Kaccaayana whose understanding was praised by the Sage,
I will make an Introduction to the Kaccaayana book which he has made,
relying on the instruction I have received from those
who know the solutions to debated points that have been handed down 
in succession <from teacher to pupil>.

kaccaayana~n ca muniva.n.nitabuddhim assa /
kaccaayanassa mukhamattam aha.m karissa.m //
paara.mparaabhatavinicchayanicchaya~n~nuu- /
laddhopadesam avalamba katassa tena //

I am happy as to the syntax, but there remain two areas of uncertainty for me:

1. I too am unsure whether mukhamatta is intended as the title of a 
work or as a generic term or both.

2. The exact meaning of vinicchayanicchaya is uncertain. Apart from 
anything else I do not really know the grammatical literature and am 
not sure if these words have the same meaning as elsewhere. Generally 
speaking, however, vinicchaya means investigation, conclusion, 
judgment and the like. Nicchaya adds an element of finality. But I am 
following:

Sadd II 363: aya.m vinicchayo patto, nicchaya.m bho su.naatha me

(I am not sure if this is the passage in Sadd to which you are referring, Jim.)

Here there is some discussion of the derivation of itthi(i) 'woman', 
found also occasionally in Pali verse in the form thii. The 
commentaries explain itthi in terms of the verb thi(i)yati 'gather, 
collect' (corresponding to the Sanskrit explanation of strii). 
Aggava.msa points out that this works for Pali thii but does not 
account for the initial 'i' in itthi(i):
"the derivation of the word itthi(i) is very difficult if the 
explanation (vaada) of the teachers <is followed> -
this is the conclusion (vinicchaya) <I> have reached. Listen, sirs, 
to my solution (nicchaya)."

So we could render the last line of the second verse in Mmd:
who know the judgments and solutions that have been handed down in 
succession <from teacher to pupil>.

In any case, it is clear that in a general sense what is meant is 
that instruction has been received from people who are both familiar 
with controversial issues and within the teaching lineage.

That is about all I can manage on these two verses, I think.

No-one has responded to Nina's question so far:

I think it is anagh' uttamadakkhi.neyya.m i.e. a poetic or metrical 
elision for anagha uttamadakkhi.neyya.m. Hence Jim's translation.

Lance Cousins
 
 
885
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:02am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Jim,

This post of yours to Nina reached me just as I was sending the last one.

> > > natvaana sa.mgham anaghuttamadakkhi.neyya.m //
>> N: natvaana, from namati: an unsual form to me. I found it in PED.
>> and this: anagh-uttama-dakkhi.neyya.m,
>> I have trouble with anagh. uttama: highest.
>> I also thought at first: buddhima, but it is : budhim assa, of him.
>
>I also had trouble with 'anagha' (an-agha) at first. You will find
>'agha' (evil, etc.) in PED. Cone also has 'anagha' (without sin,
>faultless). There is also a second 'agha' in the meaning of 'sky'. I
>take all three words in the compound to be adjectives modifying
>'sa.mgha'.

So my understanding is, after all, slightly different to yours. I 
take uttamadakkhi.neyya.m as literally 'highest giftable' i.e. it is 
the supreme 'field of merit'.

bowing down to  the Community which is sinless and the highest 
<community> to which offerings can be given

I suppose, if we take it literally, what is meant is the 
ariyasa.mgha, rather than the bhikkhusa.mgha, and especially the 
arahats.

[natvaana by the way is an alternative form of absolutive for natvaa 
- forms in -tvaana are most frequent in verse]

> Although the regular dat. or gen. sing. inflection of
>'buddhimant-' is buddhamato or buddhamantassa, I'm now wondering if
>this could differ if such words (in -ant, -vant, -mant) stand at the
>end of a bahubbiihi compound. Just don't recall coming across such a
>compound with these kinds of words at the end and seeing the
>inflection of them in -assa, etc. Let's keep on the look out.
>

I don't think being at the end of a compound would make any 
difference. You really don't need a -mat suffix at the end of a 
bahubbiihi. I did consider the possibility of a transfer to the 'a' 
declension which does occur very rarely in older verse, but I think 
that very unlikely in a work of this period and with a highly learned 
author. I don't see any problem with the assa or the order. The first 
Kaccaayana is the author, the second is the book; assa refers back to 
the first:

Lance
 
 
886
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:23pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Lance,

I'll respond to your previous message with your translation of the
second verse soon. Just thought this one would be quicker to answer
first.

> So my understanding is, after all, slightly different to yours. I
> take uttamadakkhi.neyya.m as literally 'highest giftable' i.e. it is
> the supreme 'field of merit'.
>
> bowing down to S the Community which is sinless and the highest
> <community> to which offerings can be given

Your rendering seems okay to me. Admittedly, my interpretation of
compounds (especially bahubbiihis) is still fairly limited. I found 3
instances of uttamadakkhi.neyyo on the CSCD, thus giving support to
your separating the last two words from anagha. Your taking anagha to
have an elided terminal -m- is a new phenomenon for me. I simply took
the whole as three equal-standing modifiers of sa.mgha.m without
really giving any serious thought as to what type (or its subtype) of
compound this one actually belongs to. Thanks for your helpful remarks
on the -mat suffix.

I should mention here that the translation I did is not based on a lot
of research and critical thinking. In fact, it was something I'd done
fairly quickly -- I'd only spent a couple of hours on the last verse
just before posting it along with the first which I'd worked on
earlier in the spring. I'm presenting the Mmd as a text that is
ancillary to our main subject of study: the Kaccaayanavyaakara.na
(the root text, so to speak). I would also like to introduce other
ancillary texts (Suttaniddesa and Ruupasiddhi with its .tiikaa) for
study sometime later. Because of the constraints of time we won't be
able to study these texts in as much detail as Kacc. I thought that we
should continue on with Mmd (for just a little over a page which is
already transcribed) to catch up to where it begins to comment on
Kaccaayana's opening verses which we started on earlier. At that point
we can carry on three concurrent studies with Kacc, Mmd, and
Kacc-va.n.n.

Instead of posting portions of the text with my translation first, I
will post the text only first so others will have the opportunity to
try their hand at a translation and posting it for comments, if they
wish. I will post mine, if no one else does within a week.

I should also add that anyone is free to post translations of
excerpts from other grammatical texts (in Pali or Sanskrit) at any
time, especially if it helps clear up difficult matters for us.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
887
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 0:22am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Jim and Lance,
I want to thank you both for your interesting and useful remarks.
Yes, I think it has to be the ariyan Sangha, as Lance says: the supreme
'field of merit' is the ariyan Sangha.
Nina. 
op 31-08-2004 15:12 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:>
> I also had trouble with 'anagha' (an-agha) at first. You will find
> 'agha' (evil, etc.) in PED.
 
 
888
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 1, 2004 8:16pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Lance,

> 2. The exact meaning of vinicchayanicchaya is uncertain. Apart from
> anything else I do not really know the grammatical literature and am
> not sure if these words have the same meaning as elsewhere.
Generally
> speaking, however, vinicchaya means investigation, conclusion,
> judgment and the like. Nicchaya adds an element of finality. But I
am following:
>
> Sadd II 363: aya.m vinicchayo patto, nicchaya.m bho su.naatha me
>
> (I am not sure if this is the passage in Sadd to which you are
referring, Jim.)

No, it was in the Conspectus Terminorum section (7.1.3.1, p.1142) of
Vol. IV where vinicchaya and nicchaya are given together as terms for
'decision', while the next pair of terms: sani.t.thaana and ni.t.thaa
are for the definitive solution. I think your translation of nicchaya
as 'solution' is in error (meant for the next pair of terms) if you
had taken it from the Conspectus section. I read the nicchaya.m in the
Sadd II 363 paada to be the same as the previous vinicchaya. The
difference is that nicchaya has had its 'vi' elided for the correct
no. of syllables in the line. Nevertheless, I found what you wrote to
be still informative and a pleasure to read. I don't know too much
about the meaning of vinicchaya either. I think the Padamaalaa would
be a good place to look for instances of the word and how it is used.
The third chapter, called Paki.n.nakavinicchayo, consists of nine
mini-treatises on various grammatical topics. Also, as in your quote,
the vinicchaya can be seen presented in verse form. I suspect that
these vinicchayas originially came from an older tradition just like
the one mentioned in the Mmd verse and incorporated into Aggava.msa's
work. I wouldn't be surprised if we come across some in the Mmd later
on. There is a Burmese term 'nissaya' which I've always assumed to be
the same as the Pali word 'nissaya'. I'd been wondering if it might
not be related to the Pali word 'nicchaya' instead since -cch- is
pronounced in Burmese as -ss-. I have a nissaya volume on part of the
Saddaniiti but there the word in the Burmese script is the same as it
would be in Pali.

Thanks for your translation of the second verse which I thought
well-done.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
889
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 2:15am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Jim wrote to Lance:

>
>Thanks for your translation of the second verse which I thought
>well-done.

I thought so too; thanks to the both of you.

I'd like to ask a question of the group: does anyone have tips about 
how to go about getting oriented in the Saddaniti? In particular I'm 
wondering if anyone has developed their own table of contents or 
something like that, to be able to look up grammatical topics. Or 
does the work contain tables of contents in particular chapters?

I'm not asking anyone to write an essay about it (though that would 
be nice) just expressing interest in any tips or pointers you might 
have. These could even just be inserted at relevant points in other 
posts here. This could be as simple as giving page or verse 
references for the treatment of an ending--something Jim already does 
at times, and which I really appreciate.

best regards

/Rett
 
 
890
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 4:23am
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Dear Jim,

> I read the nicchaya.m in the
>Sadd II 363 paada to be the same as the previous vinicchaya. The
>difference is that nicchaya has had its 'vi' elided for the correct
>no. of syllables in the line.

I am doubtful of that because the author would certainly have known 
the word nicchaya.

What is influencing me in the interpretation of nicchaya is the 
common usage in Sanskrit "saastras.

The entry in Monier Williams Dictionary begins: inquiry, 
ascertainment, fixed opinion, conviction, certainty, positiveness 
(iti ni"scaya.h, 'this is a fixed opinion').

For subcommentaries, sometimes the Sanskrit dictionaries are more 
useful than the Pali ones (apart from CPD).

That said, I am still not really sure about this

Lance
 
 
891
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 6:53pm
Subject: Re: Mmd: introductory verses

 
    Hi Rett,

I'm glad you brought up this subject. I have several tables and
indexes for the Saddaniti that I prepared for my personal use over the
years so that the text could be more easily accessible. You said in an
offlist message last year that you have the reprint of Smith's edition
of Sadd -- so these may be of interest to you. You're probably aware
of the indices for the roots and the suffixes in Vol. IV. which I have
found quite useful, but more of such are needed. There isn't even a
Table of Contents! I have one typed out with just the chapter numbers
and titles (which are given at the end of a chapter). As the TOC is
rather short I'll post it here as soon as I add the page numbers. I
also have a detailed one for Vol. I., Padamaalaa but unfortunately
it's still in my handwriting but I will try and type it out on the
computer, something I'd been meaning to do for a long time. I have
indices for the Kaarakavibhago (on syntax) and the Kita affixes found
in the Kibbidhaanakappo. There's also a file with the suttas only but
it is incomplete (as far as no.1200) and a complete list of the roots
with the meanings (eg. 1. bhuu sattaaya.m) and crossed-checked with
the CSCD version (still needing more proofreading). You may also be
interested in the CSCD etexts of the Padamaalaa and Dhaatumaalaa which
I have in the Velthuis scheme.

When I first started studying the Saddaniti in 1983, I thought it was
an incredibly difficult text to work with. Since there is no English
translation of it, I took up the study of S.C. Vasu's translation
(with lots of notes) of Paa.nini's A.s.taadhyaayii (2 vols.). This
helped me to understand how the Indian system of describing a language
in short aphorisms works which can then be applied similarly to the
Sadd. I also ended up having to make a few indices and a table of
contents for Panini too!

Anyway, we could perhaps work on this together and try and make more
such tables and indexes available for studying the Saddaniti as they
certainly do make using the text a lot easier. I would like to do the
same for Kaccaayana and have already made a brief table of contents
for it.

Jim

> I'd like to ask a question of the group: does anyone have tips about
> how to go about getting oriented in the Saddaniti? In particular I'm
> wondering if anyone has developed their own table of contents or
> something like that, to be able to look up grammatical topics. Or
> does the work contain tables of contents in particular chapters?
>
 
 
892
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 2, 2004 10:52pm
Subject: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)

 
    Saddaniiti. ed. Helmer Smith

Table of Contents.

I. Padamaalaa. (pp. 1-314)

1. Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaago naama pa.thamo paricchedo. 1
2. Bhavatino kiriyaapadamaalaavibhaago naama dutiyo paricchedo. 13
3. Paki.n.nakavinicchayo naama tatiyo paricchedo. 30
4. Bhuudhaatumayaana.m tividhali"ngikaana.m naamikaruupaana.m
vibhaago catuttho paricchedo. 59
5. Savinicchayo okaarantapulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
naamikapadamaalaavibhaago naama pa~ncamo paricchedo. 87
6. Savinicchayo aakaarantapulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
naamikapadamaalaavibhaago naama cha.t.tho paricchedo. 137
7. Savinicchayo niggahiitantaadipulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
naamikapadamaalaavibhaago sattamo paricchedo. 167
8. Itthili"ngaana.m naamikapadamaalaavibhaago
a.t.thamo paricchedo. 197
9. Napu.msakali"n"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
naamikapadamaalaavibhaago navamo paricchedo. 226
10. Li"ngattayamissako naamikapadamaalaavibhaago
dasamo paricchedo. 235
11. Vaaccaabhidheyyali"ngaadiparidiipano naamikapadamaalaavibhaago
ekaadasamo paricchedo. 246
12. Sabbanaama-ta.msadisanaamaana.m naamikapadamaalaavibhaago
naama dvaadasamo paricchedo. 266
13. Savinicchayo sankhaanaamaana.m naamikapadamaalaavibhago
naama terasamo paricchedo. 296
14. Atthattikavibhaago naama cuddasamo paricchedo. 308

II. Dhaatumaalaa. (pp. 315-602)

15. Sara-vaggapa~ncakantiko naama dhaatuvibhaago
pannarasamo paricchedo. 315
16. Cuddasahi paricchedehi pa.tima.n.dito bhuvaadiga.no naama
so.lasamo paricchedo. 416
17. Rudhaadichakka.m naama sattarasamo paricchedo. 470
18. Curaadiga.naparidiipano a.t.thaarasamo paricchedo. 518
19. Sabbaga.navinicchayo naama ekuunaviisatimo paricchedo. 569

III. Suttamaalaa. (pp. 603-928)

20. Sandhikappo naama viisatimo paricchedo. 603
21. Naamakappo naama ekaaviisatimo paricchedo. 641
22. Kaarakavibhaago naama baaviisatimo paricchedo. 690
23. Samaasakappo naama teviisatimo paricchedo. 740
24. Taddhitakappo naama catuviisatimo paricchedo. 782
25. AAkhyaatakappo naama pa~ncaviisatimo paricchedo. 811
26. Kibbidhaanakappo naama chabbiisatimo paricchedo. 844
27. Vaacogadhapadavibhatti naama sattaviisatimo paricchedo. 878
28. Paa.linayaadisa"ngaho naama a.t.thaviisatimo paricchedo. 906
 
 
893
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 7:16am
Subject: Re: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)

 
    Jim wrote:

>I should also add that anyone is free to post translations of
>excerpts from other grammatical texts (in Pali or Sanskrit) at any
>time...

Thanks! I'd like to take you up on that offer, by trying my hand at 
translating the Saddaniiti table of contents you generously posted.I 
hope then to be able to gradually fill in a description of the 
contents of each pariccheda (section). My dream would be if there was 
a wikipedia-type site where anyone could fill in descriptions of the 
contents of individual sections or sutras, so that a guide to the 
entire contents could be developed by all the individuals over the 
globe who are reading and translating various short passages.

I start with the Suttamaalaa, since it seems to have the easiest 
section-titles. This is preliminary, and as always I'm grateful to 
anyone who points out mistakes or has alternate opinions or 
speculations. In particular, anyone familiar with the actual contents 
of the chapters will be in a much better postion to interpret the 
titles correctly. I note some unclear points after the translation.

best regards,

/Rett

>
>III. Suttamaalaa. (pp. 603-928)
>
>20. Sandhikappo naama viisatimo paricchedo. 603
>21. Naamakappo naama ekaaviisatimo paricchedo. 641
>22. Kaarakavibhaago naama baaviisatimo paricchedo. 690
>23. Samaasakappo naama teviisatimo paricchedo. 740
>24. Taddhitakappo naama catuviisatimo paricchedo. 782
>25. AAkhyaatakappo naama pa~ncaviisatimo paricchedo. 811
>26. Kibbidhaanakappo naama chabbiisatimo paricchedo. 844
>27. Vaacogadhapadavibhatti naama sattaviisatimo paricchedo. 878
>28. Paa.linayaadisa"ngaho naama a.t.thaviisatimo paricchedo. 906

Preliminary Translation:

III. The Series of Sutras.

20. The twentieth section entitled: correct use of sandhi.
21. The twenty-first section entitled:correct use of nominal items.
22. The twenty-second section entitled:the classification of kaarakas.
23. The twenty-third section entitled:correct use of compounds.
24. The twenty-fourth section entitled:correct use of secondary 
derivational suffixes (taddhita).
25. The twenty-fifth section entitled:correct use of finite verbs.
26. The twenty-sixth section entitled:correct use of primary 
suffixes. (kit-suffixes)
27.The twenty-seventh section entitled: inflection of words in the 
context of speech.
28. The twenty-eighth section entitled: compendium of Pali usage etc.

Notes and Questions:

_Maalaa_ as 'series'. Better choice?

Translation of _kappa_ here. I chose 'correct use', but am not sure.

For _naama_ in 21, I translated 'nominal items', thinking of nouns, 
adjectives, pronouns and possibly more word-classes. Basically 
anything using nominal inflections.

Leaving _kaaraka_ untranslated. That's a topic in itself, I suspect.

In 27, I broke down the title like this: [(Vaacaa- tp7- ogadha) -kdh- 
pada] -tp6- vibhatti

Speech-immersed word inflection. The inflection of words immersed 
(contained) in speech. From this idea I translated loosely as 'in the 
context of speech'.

The translation of 28 is a wild guess. I'll need to look at how the 
term is used in the body of the text to be able to come up with 
something better, though I don't know how successful I'll be, since 
I'm still just getting started with Pali grammatical terminology and 
idiom.

Some contents of 20: Pali alphabet, long and short vowels, light and 
heavy syllables, description of Pali's sandhi peculiarities and 
options, some peculiarities in the gaathas...

Some contents of 21: definitions of the three genders, nominal 
inflections?, pronouns...

Section 27 seems to contain a list of indeclinables, with usage tips as well???
 
 
894
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Sep 3, 2004 8:58pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)

 
    Hi Rett,

> Thanks! I'd like to take you up on that offer, by trying my hand at
> translating the Saddaniiti table of contents you generously posted.I
> hope then to be able to gradually fill in a description of the
> contents of each pariccheda (section). My dream would be if there
was
> a wikipedia-type site where anyone could fill in descriptions of the
> contents of individual sections or sutras, so that a guide to the
> entire contents could be developed by all the individuals over the
> globe who are reading and translating various short passages.

I don't expect to see too many individuals around the globe having the
competence or, if so, even be interested in participating in such a
project. At least we can count the two of us to get it started! A
guide to the contents could be put up on the website I set up for our
palistudy group and updated from time to time. I don't know how the
wikipedia idea would work but it sounds like something looking into. I
did a google search on 'Saddaniti' and only 60 results came back -- so
such a guide shouldn't be too hard for anyone to find on the web.

> I start with the Suttamaalaa, since it seems to have the easiest
> section-titles. This is preliminary, and as always I'm grateful to
> anyone who points out mistakes or has alternate opinions or
> speculations. In particular, anyone familiar with the actual
contents
> of the chapters will be in a much better postion to interpret the
> titles correctly. I note some unclear points after the translation.

Thank-you for your effort which is more than I can respond to all at
once here. I'll just get started with commenting on just a few points
and continue on with more in later messages over the next few days or
so.

> >III. Suttamaalaa. (pp. 603-928)
> >
> >20. Sandhikappo naama viisatimo paricchedo. 603

> Preliminary Translation:
>
> III. The Series of Sutras.
>
> 20. The twentieth section entitled: correct use of sandhi.

> Notes and Questions:
>
> _Maalaa_ as 'series'. Better choice?

I still think 'garland' is a better choice. There will be some
difficulty when you come to translate 'padamaalaa' as 'series of
words' since it also applies to conjugational or declensional
paradigms whereas 'garland of words' would be more apt, I think. To
me, 'garland' conveys the notion of a cluster or a finite set of items
better and it also conjures up pleasant images of flowers and strings
of beads besides. With 'sutra', I would try to avoid Sanskrit words in
Pali translations unless, of course, they both have exactly the same
spelling. I would be tempted to translate 'Suttamaalaa' as '(The?)
Garland of Grammatical Suttas'. These suttas, btw, are all the ones
numbered from 1 to 1347 which is about twice as many as in
Kaccaayana's grammar. Aggava.msa often expands what would be just one
sutta in Kaccayana into several.

The table of contents I posted is based on the material given at the
end of each chapter and I thought the full title should include the
last part like ' naama viisatimo paricchedo'. But now I'm not so sure.
I notice that some of the chapters in Padamaalaa do not contain
'naama' which I thought made the table inconsistent but apparently the
same omissions also occur in the CSCD version. I don't think it
necessary to translate it as 'The twentieth section entitled:' which
is too cumbersome and distracting. This can be easily represented by
just the '20.' The 'section' or 'chapter' part only need be placed
once at the top of the column of numbers or it could be placed before
as in:

Chap. 1.
2. and so on.

> Translation of _kappa_ here. I chose 'correct use', but am not sure.

I'd go with the Mmd or Kacc-va.n.n commentary on what it has to say
about 'susandhikappo'. I thought 'kappo' meant 'section' (or chapter)
because of the verb 'kappiiyati' being a synonym of
'paricchijjiiyati' but with the word 'kappiya.m' (according to rule;
what is proper, fit) it is hard to tell for sure. Your 'correct use'
may be possible...

kappiiyati etthaa ti kappo -- Mmd, p. 4
kappiya.m paricchijjiiyati etthaa ti kappo. -- Kacc-va.n.n

Mmd takes 'sandhikappo' as 'sandhiina.m kappo'. (cha.t.t.hiitappurisa)
ie. 'the correct use of sandhis' or 'the section on sandhis'.

To be continued...

Jim
 
 
895
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 10:11am
Subject: Next: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)

 
    Hi Jim!

Hope you're having as pleasant of a Sunday as I am. Here are some 
more of my 'getting oriented' notes on the Saddaniiti which I hope 
may be of interest to you and others.

The comments you sent were helpful, many thanks. I'm taking them on 
board, and may respond to some of them later. Here's an attempt to 
start translating the Padamaala's section (pariccheda) titles, along 
with some incomplete notes about the contents of a couple of the 
sections.

best regards,

/Rett

>I. Padamaalaa. (pp. 1-314)
>
> 1. Savikara.naakhyaatavibhaago naama pa.thamo paricchedo. 1
> 2. Bhavatino kiriyaapadamaalaavibhaago naama dutiyo paricchedo. 13
> 3. Paki.n.nakavinicchayo naama tatiyo paricchedo. 30
> 4. Bhuudhaatumayaana.m tividhali"ngikaana.m naamikaruupaana.m
> vibhaago catuttho paricchedo. 59
>

I. The Garland of Words

1. Enumeration of finite verbs together with (their) conjugational infixes.
2. Enumeration of the verbal paradigm (or garland) of bhavati.
3. Miscellaneous analysis
4. Enumeration of nominal forms composed from the root bhu and having 
the three genders.

Translation notes:

I've left out 'naama x-iyo paricchedo' in favor of just a section number.

2. I'm taking _bhavatino_ as a genitive singular meaning 'of (the 
form) bhavati'. i.e. it's the -o genitive ending (skr -as) by analogy 
with hatthino (of the elephant). I'm a bit unsure of this form, since 
it would never have been in the form _bhavatin_, but the chapter has 
a list of conjugations of bhavati so it seems at least not impossible.

4. literally 'having the three-fold gender'

Contents notes (just for starters, very incomplete, and some of these 
are _borrowed from the work of others_):

Section one starts out with the definition of a root (dhaatu), p2, 
5-19. It states the conjugations (or verb classes) from around p2 
line 20. These are, for example the _bhu_ class (ga.na), the _rudh_ 
class etc up to the _cor_ class. It has a list of the conjugational 
infixes (vikara.na) p3, 11- 22. These are the endings you add to a 
root prior to adding the conjugational ending.

Section two starts out with a presentation of the 'tense' system, 
with examples of the conjugated verbal endings for the present, 
imperative, optative, perfect (rare), hiyyatani (?), aorist, future 
and conditional tenses. (I'm using the word 'tense' here very 
loosely). Starting at around p14, line 14, is a basic definition of 
active vs middle forms (parassapada/attanopada) From around p14, line 
26 you find definitions of the 3 persons of a verb 1st, 2nd and 3rd 
person). Page 15 starts with 6 definitions or interpretations of the 
term 'vibhatti' (or conjugational/declinational form). Page 20, line 
24 to page 21, line 25 describes the 3 functions of finite verb forms 
with reference to time, kaaraka and place.
 
896
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)

 
    Hi Rett,

Just continuing on from where I left off after much blood, sweat, and
tears :). I'm afraid I'll lag further and further behind as I won't be
able to keep up with you now that you've gone on to do the Padamala
which is okay with me but you may have to wait awhile for my follow-up
comments which I hope you won't mind. But hopefully others will come
in with comments and questions during the meantime. This subscription
list isn't some newspaper outfit with deadlines to meet, you know!!

> Translation of _kappa_ here. I chose 'correct use', but am not sure.

The meaning of 'kappa' continues to be a problem. The closest of the
seven entries given in Cone's dictionary seems to be under 2. (i): "a
(proper) way of proceeding" which doesn't quite fit in my opinion.
There are more meanings with examples given at Sadd II 551ff., of
which none seem to quite fit either. I base my interpretation of
'section' or 'chapter' on the meaning of 'ki~ncid-uunaka' (something
less) at Abh 742 with its .tiikaa as follows:

ki~nciduunake appamattakayutte kappo {paa.nini 5.4.67}, uunassa
appakataaya kappiiyati ekaadivasena paricchijjatiiti kappo, kappa
paricchedane.

I have been taking kappa in the sense of 'something less' to refer to
a smaller section of the Suttamaalaa. However, the Pa.ninian ref. is
interesting (should be 5.3.67) in that it takes 'kalpa' to be a
taddhita affix (kalpap) connoting a slight incompleteness
(ii.sadasamaapta). This sense could also be applied to our
sandhikappa, etc. if you take it to be that there is no claim for the
chapter on the sandhis, etc. to be, in any way, absolutely complete or
perfect. But is there an English word for this notion? ?The
Less-Than-Perfect-Chapter on the Sandhis? Another problem with this is
that the Mmd or Kacc-va.n.n says nothing of this interpretation.

> For _naama_ in 21, I translated 'nominal items', thinking of nouns,
> adjectives, pronouns and possibly more word-classes. Basically
> anything using nominal inflections.

'nominal items' is fine. I would have chosen 'words' instead of
'items'. This section includes numerals (sa"nkhyaa-naaama) and also
deals with indeclinables from pronominal bases in the form of tattha,
tathaa, tadaa, etc.

> Leaving _kaaraka_ untranslated. That's a topic in itself, I suspect.

Yes, that certainly is. Have you seen Kahrs' critical study of the
kaaraka suttas in _Exploring the Saddaniiti_ in JPTS XVII? I haven't
read it all but from what I have read so, I think it's serves as an
excellent model of how to go about studying such a work.

In addtion to Smith's ed., I have the BBF edition of the Saddaniiti in
the Thai script which have tables of contents (maatikaa) at the front
of each volume. I made a copy of it of which the following is given
for the Suttamaalaa:

20. Sandhikappa 603
21. Naamakappa 641
22. Kaarakakappa 690
23. Samaasakappa 740
24. Taddhitakappa 782
25. AAkhyaatakappa 811
26. Kitakappa 844
27. Catupadavibhaaga 878
28. Paa.linayaadisa"ngaha 906

Nigamanagaathaa 926

The page numbers still refer to the Smith ed. Notice that the TOC
doesn't quite follow what is given by Aggava.msa. The table expands on
no. 27. with naamapada, upasaggapada, nipaatapada which I have left
out. The TOCs for Padamala and Dhaatumala are almost identical to the
headings given in the Burmese CSCD versions.

Taking a break... will continue later...

Best wishes,
Jim
 
897
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:27pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)

 
    Hi Rett,

> 27.The twenty-seventh section entitled: inflection of words in the
> context of speech.
> 28. The twenty-eighth section entitled: compendium of Pali usage
etc.
>
> Notes and Questions:

[...]

> In 27, I broke down the title like this: [(Vaacaa- tp7-
ogadha) -kdh-
> pada] -tp6- vibhatti
>
> Speech-immersed word inflection. The inflection of words immersed
> (contained) in speech. From this idea I translated loosely as 'in
the
> context of speech'.

I think 'vibhatti' should be 'classification' (or analysis) instead of
'inflection'. The meaning becomes clear in the opening verse with the
word 'vibhaajana.m':

ito param pavakkhaami catunnan tu vibhaajana.m
vaacogadhapadaanan, tam su.naaatha susamaahitaa. 1 (Sadd II 878)

ie. the classification of the four words immersed in speech. Also, the
bulk of the chapter is taken up mostly by the treatment of the
prefixes and indeclinables which are normallly uninflected.

The four word-classes (or 'parts of speech') can also be found in
commentaries like the Sumangalavilaasinii, eg. ettha evan ti
nipaatapada.m. me ti aadiini naamapadaani. pa.tipanno hotii ti ettha
pa.tii ti upasaggapada.m, hotii ti aakhyaatapadan ti. iminaa taava
nayena padavibhaago veditabbo. (Sv I 26)

This scheme is also found in Sanskrit grammars. Pata~njali in the
first aahnika of his Mahaabhaa.sya cites a verse from the .Rgveda
(4.58.3) describing a bull as the personification of speech. The four
horns of this two headed bull refer to the 4 word-classes: catvaari
"s.r"ngaa.ni catvaari padajaataani naamaakhyaatopasarganipaata"sca.
Pata~njali also goes on with an interpretation of the three legs
(tenses), two heads (eternal & temporary), seven hands (7 cases) and
the three places where it is tied up (chest, throat, head).

> 28. The twenty-eighth section entitled: compendium of Pali usage
etc.

> The translation of 28 is a wild guess. I'll need to look at how the
> term is used in the body of the text to be able to come up with
> something better, though I don't know how successful I'll be, since
> I'm still just getting started with Pali grammatical terminology and
> idiom.

I'm not sure what the 'naya' (method?) in 'paa.linaya' (= paa.ligati)
really stands for but the 'paa.li' part is applicable to just the
language of the Tipitaka. There is also an a.t.thakathaanaya,
.tiikaanaya, and pakara.nanaya. I'm not too familiar with this chapter
but it sure looks interesting. It is concerned mostly with matters of
textual exegesis and methodology and there is even a small section on
logic (where there is smoke, there is fire). As I was glancing through
this chapter I came across some interesting material on Maagadhii and
Sanskrit, pp. 923-4 which I didn't know was there until now.

Best wishes,
Jim

898
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:27pm
Subject: Re: Next: Sadd: Table of Contents (Smith ed.)
Hi Rett,

Thank-you for this translation along with your comments and notes. I
don't have too much to say this time. I find that one has to go
through the chapters rather carefully to sort out what's in them. I
have started preparing a contents listing for the first pariccheda
from my old notes. Your notes on the contents are helpful.

> I. The Garland of Words

Because there are so many garlands of words in this volume, I thought
of Garlands of Words, but not sure if the plural would be appropriate
here. Maalaa can be either singular or plural.

> 1. Enumeration of finite verbs together with (their) conjugational
infixes.
> 2. Enumeration of the verbal paradigm (or garland) of bhavati.
> 3. Miscellaneous analysis
> 4. Enumeration of nominal forms composed from the root bhu and
having
> the three genders.

I can see why you chose 'enumeration' for 'vibhaago'. It's like the
'-sa"nga.nii' in Dhammasa"nga.nii (enumeration of dhammas). Another
possibility may be 'analysis'.

> Translation notes:

[...]

> 2. I'm taking _bhavatino_ as a genitive singular meaning 'of (the
> form) bhavati'. i.e. it's the -o genitive ending (skr -as) by
analogy
> with hatthino (of the elephant). I'm a bit unsure of this form,
since
> it would never have been in the form _bhavatin_, but the chapter has
> a list of conjugations of bhavati so it seems at least not
impossible.

I think your interpretation is correct. In traditional grammars, you
find unusual forms like verbs, prefixes or letters having nominal
inflections. You'd never see them in the Tipitaka.

> Section two starts out with a presentation of the 'tense' system,
> with examples of the conjugated verbal endings for the present,
> imperative, optative, perfect (rare), hiyyatani (?), aorist, future
> and conditional tenses. (I'm using the word 'tense' here very
> loosely). Starting at around p14, line 14, is a basic definition of
> active vs middle forms (parassapada/attanopada) From around p14,
line
> 26 you find definitions of the 3 persons of a verb 1st, 2nd and 3rd
> person). Page 15 starts with 6 definitions or interpretations of the
> term 'vibhatti' (or conjugational/declinational form). Page 20, line
> 24 to page 21, line 25 describes the 3 functions of finite verb
forms
> with reference to time, kaaraka and place.

The hiyyatanii is the imperfect. In: "the 3 functions of finite verb
forms with reference to time, kaaraka and place", I think 'place'
should be 'person' (purisa).

Best wishes,
Jim
 
899
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 2:11pm
Subject: Saddaniti and Kaccayana detailed TOCs
Hi Jim!

Thanks very much for all the material you've sent so far. I'm going 
through it, and will probably respond to some points this evening.

I just found this message I quote from below for the first time as I 
was going back through some previous material. I had thought till now 
your response to my query was just the bare TOC without comment :-) 
(very cool and Spartan, I thought)

>I also have a detailed one for Vol. I., Padamaalaa but unfortunately
>it's still in my handwriting but I will try and type it out on the
>computer, something I'd been meaning to do for a long time.

Now I see it was perhaps redundant of me to start trying to list 
contents in the Padamaala :-) I hope you can do this, though the 
tedium of typing is known to be mind-numbing.. not to mention what it 
can do to the tendons in arms and shoulders. Sometimes I feel we 
haven't actually come farther than medieval scribes.

> I have
>indices for the Kaarakavibhago (on syntax) and the Kita affixes found
>in the Kibbidhaanakappo. There's also a file with the suttas only but
>it is incomplete (as far as no.1200) and a complete list of the roots
>with the meanings (eg. 1. bhuu sattaaya.m) and crossed-checked with
>the CSCD version (still needing more proofreading). You may also be
>interested in the CSCD etexts of the Padamaalaa and Dhaatumaalaa which
>I have in the Velthuis scheme.

I'm not that knowledgable about these schemes, but are these files 
that would be readable on a Mac? I could perhaps start with some of 
the clerical work involved in getting a more detailed TOC ready for 
the Suttamaala.

A big question: do you ever use the Harvard-Kyoto system? At first I 
thought it was a bit strange, but I'm getting used to it and wouldn't 
mind using it in on-list correspondence. Just a thought. I'm happy to 
go with the house-rules, whatever they be.

>When I first started studying the Saddaniti in 1983, I thought it was
>an incredibly difficult text to work with.

I know the feeling.

> Since there is no English
>translation of it, I took up the study of S.C. Vasu's translation
>(with lots of notes) of Paa.nini's A.s.taadhyaayii (2 vols.). This
>helped me to understand how the Indian system of describing a language
>in short aphorisms works which can then be applied similarly to the
>Sadd. I also ended up having to make a few indices and a table of
>contents for Panini too!

I've also got a copy of Vasu at home which I've been borrowing from 
the library since early last spring. So far no one seems to have 
missed it. I'm even more of a beginner at Panini's system than at 
Pali vyakarana, but as you say, it's very helpful to learn the idiom 
and techniques of expression of grammatical literature. This latter 
is perhaps more important for our purposes than mastering Panini's 
system as such.


>Anyway, we could perhaps work on this together and try and make more
>such tables and indexes available for studying the Saddaniti as they
>certainly do make using the text a lot easier. I would like to do the
>same for Kaccaayana and have already made a brief table of contents
>for it.

Yes I think this would be a beneficial project both for us and 
possibly for others as well. I would also like to work with the 
Kaccaayana. For the time being Pali vyakarana is still not my main 
focus, unfortunately. I've still got old projects to complete. But 
I've decided to try to get in at least a couple of decent sessions 
with these texts a week. Your answers so far have been both helpful 
and interesting, and encourage me to continue. Thanks!

/Rett



>
>> I'd like to ask a question of the group: does anyone have tips about
>> how to go about getting oriented in the Saddaniti? In particular I'm
>> wondering if anyone has developed their own table of contents or
> > something like that, to be able to look up grammatical topics. Or
> > does the work contain tables of contents in particular chapters?
> >
>
>
 
900
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Saddaniti and Kaccayana detailed TOCs
Hi Rett,

> I just found this message I quote from below for the first time as I
> was going back through some previous material. I had thought till
now
> your response to my query was just the bare TOC without comment :-)
> (very cool and Spartan, I thought)

Since your original query I've posted 5 responses plus this one. I
hope you've found them all by now. If not, you can find them in the
group's archives.

> >I also have a detailed one for Vol. I., Padamaalaa but
unfortunately
> >it's still in my handwriting but I will try and type it out on the
> >computer, something I'd been meaning to do for a long time.
>
> Now I see it was perhaps redundant of me to start trying to list
> contents in the Padamaala :-) I hope you can do this, though the
> tedium of typing is known to be mind-numbing.. not to mention what
it
> can do to the tendons in arms and shoulders. Sometimes I feel we
> haven't actually come farther than medieval scribes.

I have it all on 2 sheets of paper, so it's no big deal to type out. I
hope you will find it of some use. They are just rough jottings and I
think the contents I listed need to be checked over which I will do
while typing out. I'll email it to you off-list when I'm done. It
might take awhile.

> I'm not that knowledgable about these schemes, but are these files
> that would be readable on a Mac? I could perhaps start with some of
> the clerical work involved in getting a more detailed TOC ready for
> the Suttamaala.
>
> A big question: do you ever use the Harvard-Kyoto system? At first I
> thought it was a bit strange, but I'm getting used to it and
wouldn't
> mind using it in on-list correspondence. Just a thought. I'm happy
to
> go with the house-rules, whatever they be.

The Velthuis scheme is the most common convention of writing Pali in
email messages and that's what we've been using here. I'm familiar
with the Harvard-Kyoto system which seems to be the one preferred by
Indologists and used for Monier-Williams' online dictionary. I don't
think HKC would be suitable for this list. The files that I have are
plain text files compatible for all types of computers including MACs.
I sometimes send Nina a text file and she has reported no problems on
her iMac.

Before you get started on a TOC for some of the sutta paricchedas, you
might want to check with me first to see if I've got something tucked
away somewhere. I have a text file of the Niruttidiipanii by Le.di
Sayadaw, which is a modern sutta-style Pali grammar based on
Moggallaana's. One of its nice features is that the suttas are
organized into smaller groups called raasi-s and also the suttas come
with cross-references to Sadd, Kc, Ruup, and even to Candragomin's and
Paa.nini's grammars. I thought the raasi grouping very helpful and
started to prepare listings of them awhile ago. Here's a sample for
the taddhitaka.n.da:

5. taddhitaka.n.da [suttas no. 430-560: =131 suttas]

1. apaccaraasi. [430-443: 14]
2. anekattharaasi. [444-471: 28]
3. assatthiraasi. [472-489: 18]
4. bhaava, kammaraasi. [490-494: 5]
5. parimaa.naraasi. [495-503: 9]
6. sa"nkhyaaraasi. [504-516: 13]
7. khuddakaraasi. [517-555: 39]
7a. pakaararaasi. [517-523: 7]
7b. kularaasi. [524-6: 3]
7c. hita, saadhu, araharaasi. [527-35: 9]
7d. vikatiraasi [536-7: 2]
7e. visesaraasi. [538-40: 3]
7f. samuuharaasi. [541-3: 3]
7g. datta, nibbattaraasi. [544-5: 2]
7h. la, ita, karaasi. [546-8: 3]
7i. abhuutatabbhaavaraasi. [549: 1]
7j. sakattharaasi. [550: 1]
7k. niddi.t.thapaccayaraasi. [551-2: 2]
7l. vuddhiraasi. [553: 1]
7m. loparaasi [554-5: 2]
8. naanaattaraasi. [556-560: 5]

This could be improved by adding in the suffixes. I'm not sure how
hard it would be to prepare something similar for the taddhitakappa in
Sadd though.

[...]

> I've also got a copy of Vasu at home which I've been borrowing from
> the library since early last spring. So far no one seems to have
> missed it. I'm even more of a beginner at Panini's system than at
> Pali vyakarana, but as you say, it's very helpful to learn the idiom
> and techniques of expression of grammatical literature. This latter
> is perhaps more important for our purposes than mastering Panini's
> system as such.

I recently discovered a treasure trove of Sanskrit Vyakarana
literature at sansknet.org where you'll find Bhart.rhari's
Vaakayapadiiya (philosophy of language) with Helaaraaja's commentary
and the complete Kaa"sikaav.rtti with Jinendrabuddhi's and Haridatta's
commentaries (6 vols.!). But the website has its drawbacks with the
devanagari font situation and the slow connection.

> >Anyway, we could perhaps work on this together and try and make
more
> >such tables and indexes available for studying the Saddaniti as
they
> >certainly do make using the text a lot easier. I would like to do
the
> >same for Kaccaayana and have already made a brief table of contents
> >for it.
>
> Yes I think this would be a beneficial project both for us and
> possibly for others as well. I would also like to work with the
> Kaccaayana. For the time being Pali vyakarana is still not my main
> focus, unfortunately. I've still got old projects to complete. But
> I've decided to try to get in at least a couple of decent sessions
> with these texts a week. Your answers so far have been both helpful
> and interesting, and encourage me to continue. Thanks!

Thank you for your interest and input so far. Only involve yourself as
much as you care to and when you have the time. An involvement with
the study of Pali vyakarana can easily become a full-time occupation
as it has for me this past little while. However, it's something that
I don't usually keep up for months and months. Sometimes it's good to
give it a rest at times.

Best wishes,
Jim

901
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:07am
Subject: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Jim and group,

Here is an attempt to translate the next three chapter titles in the 
table of contents of the Saddaniiti.

>
> 5. Savinicchayo okaarantapulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
> naamikapadamaalaavibhaago naama pa~ncamo paricchedo. 87

Translation:

(The fifth section entitled) 5. Analysis and discussion of the 
nominal paradigm of the stem form of [words having] masculine gender 
ending in the letter 'o'.

Words:

savinicchaayo: together with discussion (coordinated with vibhaago)
okaara: the letter 'o'
pullinga: masculine gender
pakatiruupa: natural form, stem-form prior to adding grammatical 
endings, radical (< Apte's _Practical Sanskrit-English Dictionary_, 
prak.rti)
naamika: nominal
padamaala: word-garland, sequence of words, formula
naamikapadamaala: nominal paradigm
vibhaago: analysis, enumeration, division, breakdown

okaarantapullingaana.m: I'm tentatively reading this as a bahuvrihi 
(bahubbihi) in the genitive plural, with its exocentric referent 
being 'words'. Of words having masculine gender ending in the letter 
'o'.

I'm curious, what exactly is the pakatiruupa? For this paradigm, 
whose key example is puriso (person), would the pakatiruupa be 
puriso? Or puris- ? Or purisa ? Perhaps pakatiruupa means something 
else?

I'm not entirely satisfied with the above, and there may be some 
fundamental errors in how I've read the phrase. But if we take it as 
a model, the next two titles can be translated mechanically:


> 6. Savinicchayo aakaarantapulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
> naamikapadamaalaavibhaago naama cha.t.tho paricchedo. 137
> 7. Savinicchayo niggahiitantaadipulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
> naamikapadamaalaavibhaago sattamo paricchedo. 167


tr. (The sixth section entitled) 6. Analysis and discussion of the 
nominal paradigm of the stem form of [words having] masculine gender 
ending in the letter 'aa'.

In this section the key example is satthaa (teacher).

tr. (The seventh section entitled) 7. Analysis and discussion of the 
nominal paradigm of the stem form of [words having] masculine gender 
ending in '.m' and so on.

'Niggahiita' is glossed as 'anusvara' in Warder's _Pali Metre_, 38. 
I've pencilled this into my PED while eagerly awaiting the next 
installment of Cone's dictionary which will undoubtedly include this 
sense of the word.

In this section the key example is gaccha.m (present participle, 
'going') which is a nominative singular.

An interesting 'contents' note: From about the middle of page 154 and 
into page 155 I found a description of how the word raajaa (king) can 
change class to an -o ending masculine at the end of compounds. 
Example: mahaaraajo gacchati. (compare: raajaa gacchati)

Happy Pali-ing,

/Rett

 
902
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:58am
Subject: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Hi Jim,

Your five or so lengthy answers so far have been very helpful, thank 
you. I've just picked out a few spots to respond to, but rest assured 
I've read and enjoyed it all.

> With 'sutra', I would try to avoid Sanskrit words in
>Pali translations unless, of course, they both have exactly the same
>spelling.

I can see your point here. The only objection I might raise would be 
when a Sanskrit form has become naturalized into English. An example 
of this turns up later in this post.

>
>
>> Translation of _kappa_ here. I chose 'correct use', but am not sure.
>
>I'd go with the Mmd or Kacc-va.n.n commentary on what it has to say
>about 'susandhikappo'. I thought 'kappo' meant 'section' (or chapter)
>because of the verb 'kappiiyati' being a synonym of
>'paricchijjiiyati'

This sounds like a good choice. I'll go with it.

>I have been taking kappa in the sense of 'something less' to refer to
>a smaller section of the Suttamaalaa. However, the Pa.ninian ref. is
>interesting (should be 5.3.67) in that it takes 'kalpa' to be a
>taddhita affix (kalpap) connoting a slight incompleteness
>(ii.sadasamaapta). This sense could also be applied to our
>sandhikappa, etc. if you take it to be that there is no claim for the
>chapter on the sandhis, etc. to be, in any way, absolutely complete or
>perfect. But is there an English word for this notion? ?The
>Less-Than-Perfect-Chapter on the Sandhis?


The thing about that translation is that then 'kappa' in 
'sandhikappa' is doing double-duty, as both 'chapter' and 'less then 
perfect'. So I think it's probably not that one, though I had fun 
looking up that verse in Vasu. I also noticed that Apte gives this 
sense of the word under his entry for kalpa.

A fanciful interpretation that struck me while doing the laundry 
connected it with its sense of aeon. If an aeon is one 'pulse' of 
time, i.e. one cycle of origination and dissolution, then maybe 
kappas-as-chapters are individual 'pulses' in the temporal sequence 
of the entire book. Or maybe they're one 'complete' cycle, from 
origination to dissolution, so we could translate 'sandhikappa' as 
'Sandhi from A to Z'... as I said, fanciful. Feel free to pass over 
this comment in an embarrassed silence ;-)

>
>In addtion to Smith's ed., I have the BBF edition of the Saddaniiti in
>the Thai script which have tables of contents (maatikaa) at the front
>of each volume. I made a copy of it of which the following is given
>for the Suttamaalaa:
>
>20. Sandhikappa 603
>21. Naamakappa 641
>22. Kaarakakappa 690
>23. Samaasakappa 740
>24. Taddhitakappa 782
>25. AAkhyaatakappa 811
>26. Kitakappa 844
>27. Catupadavibhaaga 878
>28. Paa.linayaadisa"ngaha 906

This is interesting, especially because the first seven titles match 
those of the Kaccaayana, and in the same order.

>
> > In 27, I broke down the title like this: [(Vaacaa- tp7-
>ogadha) -kdh-
> > pada] -tp6- vibhatti
> >
> > Speech-immersed word inflection. The inflection of words immersed
> > (contained) in speech. From this idea I translated loosely as 'in
>the
> > context of speech'.
>
>I think 'vibhatti' should be 'classification' (or analysis) instead of
>'inflection'. The meaning becomes clear in the opening verse with the
>word 'vibhaajana.m':

Thanks. I'm convinced :-)

>
>
>The four word-classes (or 'parts of speech') can also be found in
>commentaries like the Sumangalavilaasinii, eg. ettha evan ti
>nipaatapada.m. me ti aadiini naamapadaani. pa.tipanno hotii ti ettha
>pa.tii ti upasaggapada.m, hotii ti aakhyaatapadan ti. iminaa taava
>nayena padavibhaago veditabbo. (Sv I 26)


Great, thanks.

>
>I'm not sure what the 'naya' (method?) in 'paa.linaya' (= paa.ligati)
>really stands for but the 'paa.li' part is applicable to just the
>language of the Tipitaka.

Perhaps I should amend Pali to 'canonical' there?


>There is also an a.t.thakathaanaya,
>.tiikaanaya, and pakara.nanaya. I'm not too familiar with this chapter
>but it sure looks interesting. It is concerned mostly with matters of
>textual exegesis and methodology and there is even a small section on
>logic (where there is smoke, there is fire). As I was glancing through
>this chapter I came across some interesting material on Maagadhii and
>Sanskrit, pp. 923-4 which I didn't know was there until now.

More interesting stuff thanks. I looked in there, and it appears that 
the Pali word for Sanskrit is sakka.ta? I would have expected 
something like sankha.ta.

I haven't read closely, but would the author be equating maagadhii 
with what we call pali? So we could roughly understand it like this:

Sadd. > Translation

Pali > Canon(ical)
Magadhii > Pali
Sakka.ta > Sanskrit

?

Note, the last one is an example of where perhaps the naturalized 
English (Sanskrit) should be chosen over the Pali form, despite it's 
being a sanskrit form.

And on second thought perhaps the second should just be translated as 
Magadhi, and we could mention in a footnote that they equate Magadhii 
with what we call Pali.

>The hiyyatanii is the imperfect.

Thanks.

> In: "the 3 functions of finite verb
>forms with reference to time, kaaraka and place", I think 'place'
>should be 'person' (purisa).

Yikes! What a nasty typo/braino.Thanks.

take care

/Rett

 
903
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:13am
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Rett,
Normal or original form. Does this make sense?
You gave as example raajaa, and then in the compund mahaarajo, this is not
the original form.
Nina. 
op 08-09-2004 15:07 schreef rett op rett@telia.com:

> I'm curious, what exactly is the pakatiruupa? For this paradigm,
> whose key example is puriso (person), would the pakatiruupa be
> puriso? Or puris- ? Or purisa ? Perhaps pakatiruupa means something
> else?

 
904
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:22pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Rett:

Rett:
>I'm curious, what exactly is the pakatiruupa? For this paradigm,
>whose key example is puriso (person), would the pakatiruupa be
>puriso? Or puris- ? Or purisa ? Perhaps pakatiruupa means something
>else?

Jim:
I would take it to refer to 'purisa'. The word 'pakatiruupa' appears
for the first time in the Saddaniti (section 5) in the following quote
immediately after the declensional paradigm of purisa is given:

ayam aayasmataa mahaakaccaanena pabhinnapa.tisambhidena katasmaa
niruttipi.takato uddharito purisa iccetassa pakatiruupassa
naamikapadamaalaanayo. -- Sadd I 87ff

Note the 'purisa' form. There is some problem with this though.
Aggava.msa does not seem to give a definition of this particular term
but does for 'li"nga' on page 641 where he gives two different
definitions. [When referring to a sutta in the Saddaniiti, I thought
we could use the convention of using eg. Sd 192 while using eg. Sadd
III 641 for the vol. and page no.] In the first definition he defines
it as a derived expression (nipphannavacana) having gender, etc. and
gives the example of puriso, but in the second (Sd 196) it is defined
as the first form to be established in the derivation of words and
gives the uninflected example of purisa which is identical to how I
interpret pakatiruupa. But I'm not sure if Aggava.msa takes them both
to refer to the same thing. Having two different definitions of li"nga
is also confusing to me. The second defn. of li"nga is similar to
Panini's defn. of praatipadika. There is also the 'a"nga'
(inflectional base) term used in Panini that I still haven't sorted
out.

There are many technical terms used in the Pali grammatical texts that
are hard to understand. Sometimes they are defined, sometimes not. We
may be in need of a Pali glossary of such terms and even may have to
compile one for ourselves if none other exists (yet another project).
There is a simple one written by ~Naa.namoli but I think we need
something that covers a lot more ground. Something like Apte's
Appendix F: Grammatical Concordance or better.

I will continue with more comments on your other points later.

Jim

 
905
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:24am
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Jim and Nina,

Thanks for both of your responses. I just wanted to let you know that 
I appreciate them and from a quick skimming they both look very 
interesting. On Saturday I hope to have time to sit down and read 
them properly.

Happy Saddaniiti-ing :-)

/Rett

 
906
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:47am
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Rett,

> 5. Savinicchayo okaarantapulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
> naamikapadamaalaavibhaago naama pa~ncamo paricchedo. 87
> 6. Savinicchayo aakaarantapulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
> naamikapadamaalaavibhaago naama cha.t.tho paricchedo. 137
> 7. Savinicchayo niggahiitantaadipulli"ngaana.m paka.tiruupassa
> naamikapadamaalaavibhaago sattamo paricchedo. 167

For comparison, the following is taken from the TOC of the BBF edn.
(Thai):

5. Okaarantapulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 87
6. AAkaarantapulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 137
7. Niggahiitantaadipulli"nganaamikapadamaalaa 167

Your translation of the titles of sections 5 to 7 seem fine to me. The
only word I'm not sure about is 'discussion' for 'savinicchayo', but I
can't think of anything that would be more fitting as I don't yet
fully understand the term. The titles given by Aggava.msa are rather
long and I've been thinking that shorter ones might be more suitable
for a TOC (and page headers) as is shown in the above from BBF. There
could be a footnote referring the reader to the end of each section
for Aggava.msa's full title. Section 5 for example could be simplified
to: 5. Nominal paradigms of masculines ending in -o. 87

>'Niggahiita' is glossed as 'anusvara' in Warder's _Pali Metre_, 38.
>I've pencilled this into my PED while eagerly awaiting the next
>installment of Cone's dictionary which will undoubtedly include this
>sense of the word.

Sd 8 defines 'niggahiita' (held back, restrained, checked --sometimes
spelt niggahita.m) in several ways and says that it is called the
anusvara in the "sabda"saastra. It is also found in a verse of 10
phonetic terms given near the end of the commentary to the
Vinayapi.taka (Sp VII 1399). Another term 'vimutta' (released) at Sd
21 is described in opposite terms and the two toegether seem like a
pair.

>In this section the key example is gaccha.m (present participle,
>'going') which is a nominative singular.

I think the key example in Aggava.msa's system is 'bhava.m' (p.
169,16) even though he starts out by giving the paradigm of 'gaccha.m'
from his predecessor. The bulk of the Padamaala is subsumed under the
root 'bhuu' (1. bhuu sattaaya.m Sadd I 3,26 . . . 314,6) and that's
why you see so many forms from 'bhuu'.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
907
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:27am
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Nina,

You wrote:

>Normal or original form. Does this make sense?
>You gave as example raajaa, and then in the compund mahaarajo, this is not
>the original form.
>Nina.

Thanks, this is a very interesting suggestion. Since words can also 
take different genders and endings at the end of bahuvrihis, there 
could really be a use for a distinction like that. I'll keep it in 
mind.

Best regards,

/Rett


>
>op 08-09-2004 15:07 schreef rett op rett@telia.com:
>
>> I'm curious, what exactly is the pakatiruupa? For this paradigm,
>> whose key example is puriso (person), would the pakatiruupa be
>> puriso? Or puris- ? Or purisa ? Perhaps pakatiruupa means something
> > else?

 
908
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (tr. 5,6,7)
Hi Rett, 
I have something else in mind. Changes of case, tense and voice. Ms.
Horner's intro to the Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning, Co to the
Buddhava.msa. (P.T.S.) It is under <grammar>, where she gives many examples.
Nothing surprises me anymore.
Nina. 
op 12-09-2004 17:27 schreef rett op rett@telia.com:>
> Thanks, this is a very interesting suggestion. Since words can also
> take different genders and endings at the end of bahuvrihis, there
> could really be a use for a distinction like that. I'll keep it in
> mind.
>

 
909
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:23pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Hi Rett,

Sorry for the delay in responding to this message from last week.

> >I'm not sure what the 'naya' (method?) in 'paa.linaya' (=
paa.ligati)
> >really stands for but the 'paa.li' part is applicable to just the
> >language of the Tipitaka.
>
> Perhaps I should amend Pali to 'canonical' there?

Yes, I think 'canonical <usage>' would be better for 'paa.li(-naya)'.
We've become so accustomed to equating Pali with the language as found
in all kinds of texts regardless of whether it's in the tipi.taka, the
a.t.thakathaa, or otherwise. Sadd II 562 derives it from the root
'paal': attha.m paaletiiti paa.lii (it protects the meaning) with a
change of -l- to -.l-. And paa.lii is equated to 'pariyatti' not the
language per se. Another interesting derivation given is: pa + aa.lii
(row, line).

> >There is also an a.t.thakathaanaya,
> >.tiikaanaya, and pakara.nanaya. I'm not too familiar with this
chapter
> >but it sure looks interesting. It is concerned mostly with matters
of
> >textual exegesis and methodology and there is even a small section
on
> >logic (where there is smoke, there is fire). As I was glancing
through
> >this chapter I came across some interesting material on Maagadhii
and
> >Sanskrit, pp. 923-4 which I didn't know was there until now.
>
> More interesting stuff thanks. I looked in there, and it appears
that
> the Pali word for Sanskrit is sakka.ta? I would have expected
> something like sankha.ta.

The fuller form 'sakka.tabhaasaa(to)' is given at Sadd III 923-4 just
as 'Maagadhikaa bhaa.saa' is given for Maagadhii. I also understand
'sakka.ta' to be Sanskrit. You'd have to search the .tiikaa-s to find
the few occurrences of sakka.t.abhaasaa which is fairly prevalent in
the Saddaniti.

> I haven't read closely, but would the author be equating maagadhii
> with what we call pali? So we could roughly understand it like this:
>
> Sadd. > Translation
>
> Pali > Canon(ical)
> Magadhii > Pali
> Sakka.ta > Sanskrit
>
> ?

Yes, that seems right to me. I'd take Pali to refer to the canonical
texts ie. the pariyatti, the tipi.taka, or the navanga. There is a
verse ascribed to the ancients (poraa.nas) given on page 924, lines
4-5 as follows:

dhammo jinena Magadhena vinaa na vutto,
neruttikaa ca Magadha.m vibhajanti tasmaa ti.

The Dhamma is not spoken by the Conqueror without Magadha,
And the etymologists therefore analyse Magadha.

I believe arguments have been made to show that the language of the
Pali canon is not Maagadhii. I think K.R. Norman has presented such an
argument but I can't tell you where you could find it. There have been
a fair amount of speculation about the origins of Pali.

> Note, the last one is an example of where perhaps the naturalized
> English (Sanskrit) should be chosen over the Pali form, despite it's
> being a sanskrit form.

Yes, I agree. There will be the odd exception like this one where the
Sanskrit form is preferred over the Pali in a translation.

> And on second thought perhaps the second should just be translated
as
> Magadhi, and we could mention in a footnote that they equate
Magadhii
> with what we call Pali.

Not sure what you mean by 'the second'. At any rate, I wouldn't equate
the paa.li of paa.linaya to Magadhi. There could be some confusion in
using the word Magadhi or Magadha or Magadhese (I'm not sure of the
proper form) as some do not accept that the language of the Pali canon
is Magadhi. Geiger speaks of Magadhisms as if Magadhi is foreign to
Pali. I really don't know much about how these terms are used. I'm
going by what it says in Sadd. Maybe we should be saying the language
of Magadha instead of Magadhi.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
910
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:06am
Subject: Sadd: TOC (linga)
Hi Jim,

Sorry for taking so long to respond. I got into your discussion of 
the puzzling definition of linga at the beginning of the Sadd 
Naamakappo. This is what I would call a difficult text to read and 
interpret. But first a translation of your example of the use of 
pakatiruupa:

>
>Jim:
>I would take it to refer to 'purisa'. The word 'pakatiruupa' appears
>for the first time in the Saddaniti (section 5) in the following quote
>immediately after the declensional paradigm of purisa is given:
>
>ayam aayasmataa mahaakaccaanena pabhinnapa.tisambhidena katasmaa
>niruttipi.takato uddharito purisa iccetassa pakatiruupassa
>naamikapadamaalaanayo. -- Sadd I 87ff

Rett:,

translating the above:

This is the course of the nominal paradigm of this basic form 
'purisa' taken from the semantic-analysis collection made by the 
venerable Mahaakaccaana of overflowing analytical insight. -- Sadd I 
87ff


>Jim: Note the 'purisa' form

Noted, and it looks convincing for pakatiruupa, thanks.

>Jim:
>Aggava.msa does not seem to give a definition of this particular term
>but does for 'li"nga' on page 641 where he gives two different
>definitions....

I even found a third directly after (Sd 197). I'm pretty sure that he 
is defining different senses of the term, so there need not be a 
conflict between the definitions.

Monier Williams has 'linga' in grammatical contexts as meaning both 
'gender' and 'praatipadika' (as you remarked on below)! And it looks 
likely that 'pakatiruupa' in Sadd is more or less equal to 
'praatipadika'.

>In the first definition he defines
>it as a derived expression (nipphannavacana) having gender, etc. and
>gives the example of puriso [sic. shld read Buddho],

Rett:

Here is Sd 192, which you just referred to:

192 Visadattaadisahita.m liinatthagamaka.m nipphannavacana.m linga.m

Linga is a derived expression clarifying what is obscure 
(liinatthagamaka) and accompanied by gender. (lit: accompanied by 
purity/brightness etc, i.e purity, impurity and 
neither-purity-nor-impurity)

I have some questions and proposals about this sutta and about its 
explanation which follows.

First, Visadatta < visadda (clear, bright, manifest) + tta. I don't 
really see the connection to gender in the word Visada. But the 
following suttas (Sadd 193,194, 195) seem to define a visada 
expression as masculine, an avisada expression as feminine, and a 
neither-visada-nor-avisada expression as neuter.

So Visadattaadi (visada tta aadi) perhaps shouldn't read 'gender 
etc', but simply 'gender'. The aadi in this case would be the 
feminine and neuter. If expressed with an etc-phrase you might say 
'masculine etc' meaning all genders.

Is this connected to some idea of purity, where males are considered 
more pure than females? Or is it connected to an idea of light and 
dark, where males are light and females are dark? Or is visada a 
grammatical term that I just haven't found defined? I've looked in MW 
and Apte, as well as the lean, unlovely PED without luck.

Sd 192's exp has a fairly straightforward syntactic breakdown of the 
sutta, then continues:

vutta.m hi: "rukkho ti vacana.m linga.m, lingattho tena diipito; 
eva.m linga ca lingatta.m atvaa yojeyya pa.n.dito" ti.

What exactly is the point here? I'd translate roughly:

For it is said: the expression 'rukkho' is linga, the linga-meaning 
is illuminated by it; the learned should construe (it) knowing linga 
and the linga-meaning thusly.

Is it possible, that the second sense of linga you wondered about 
(which resembles praatipadika, and is coming below) is what is being 
called 'lingattha' here?: a sign-sense, while linga in this sutta 
refers to gender (as a further sign placed onto the bare form)? Or 
are there other ways to make sense of this quotation, and what it has 
to contribute here?

The quotation (about rukkho) appears to be from the Mmd (53), which 
you're working on anyway. Would it be possible to look more closely 
there?


>but in the second (Sd 196) it is defined
>as the first form to be established in the derivation of words and
>gives the uninflected example of purisa which is identical to how I
>interpret pakatiruupa.

Back to this after a break.

> But I'm not sure if Aggava.msa takes them both
>to refer to the same thing. Having two different definitions of li"nga
>is also confusing to me. The second defn. of li"nga is similar to
>Panini's defn. of praatipadika.

Do you have handy where in Panini that definition occurs?

> There is also the 'a"nga'
>(inflectional base) term used in Panini that I still haven't sorted
>out.

How did you read pa.tichanna.m anga.m ?

Back with more in a bit.

best regards,

/Rett

 
911
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:38pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Jim,

>I believe arguments have been made to show that the language of the
>Pali canon is not Maagadhii. I think K.R. Norman has presented such an
>argument but I can't tell you where you could find it. There have been
>a fair amount of speculation about the origins of Pali.
>

That is the general view, but there is a certain amount of 
sleight-of-hand involved. If you follow the (relatively late) 
descriptions of Prakrit/Middle Indian/Middle Indo-Aryan dialects 
given by Indian grammatical writers, what we call Pali does not have 
all the features attributed to the dialect they call Maagadhii. It is 
also true that some of the missing features are attested much earlier 
in inscriptions, partly from the appropriate area of Eastern India. 
However, there is nothing to say that this was the only dialect 
spoken in Magadha.

Other dialects may have been spoken in the area close to the 
present-day Nepalese border from which the Buddha came or indeed 
through much of the kingdom of Kosala which appears to have been the 
main focus of the Buddha's activities for a long time (note his 
frequent residence at the capital: Saavatthi). Since these areas 
were, it seems, incorporated into the kingdom of Maagadha during the 
latter part of the reign of Ajaatasattu, they too would have properly 
been called language of Maagadha in later times. This sort of thing 
is quite normal. To reject it is the same as saying that only Scots 
can be called English because it is descended from Angle whereas 
standard English derives rather more from Saxon - true, but pedantic 
and unnecessary.

We also have to note that we do not know what kind of variations 
existed between the language of ordinary people and that of the 
'upper classes'; it is not at all impossible that they spoke a 
dialect, lacking some features of the dialect(s) spoken by ordinary 
people.

Lastly, we should note that these were not written languages. If you 
memorize speech, you generally memorize it in the dialect you 
yourself use and would repeat it it in that dialect, not in a parody 
of the original.

So it is not surprising that the Suttas show evidence of transmission 
in various dialects before they were collected in the present form.

>Not sure what you mean by 'the second'. At any rate, I wouldn't equate
>the paa.li of paa.linaya to Magadhi. There could be some confusion in
>using the word Magadhi or Magadha or Magadhese (I'm not sure of the
>proper form) as some do not accept that the language of the Pali canon
>is Magadhi. Geiger speaks of Magadhisms as if Magadhi is foreign to
>Pali. I really don't know much about how these terms are used. I'm
>going by what it says in Sadd. Maybe we should be saying the language
>of Magadha instead of Magadhi.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
>

Pali as the name of a language appears to be first used in South-East 
Asia around the 17th century, but it is never used in Pali writings 
as the name of a language before that date and possibly not after. So 
the language of the Canon has been called Maagadhabhaasaa or 
Maagadhikabhaasaa at least since the time of Buddhaghosa and probably 
quite a bit longer i.e. 1500 years or more. I think that is quite 
long enough to establish it as the correct name ! Maagadhii is used 
but relatively rarely and, as far as I know, only in works of the 
second millennium A.D.

Perhaps we should call it Magadhika to remind ourselves that it is 
based on a dialect used in the larger kingdom of Magadha.


-- 
Best Wishes,

Lance Cousins

 
912
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Lance,

Thank-you for your interesting response which prompted me to give the
matter more thought. Most of what you wrote sounds plausible to me,
but sfter a bit of reading up on some of the various suggested origins
of the Pali language by others, I find the one relating to Ujjenii of
particular interest. This is the one proposed by Westergaard, Kuhn,
Franke, and Konow according to Geiger, pp. 3-4 in his Pali Literature
and Language. Some of the arguments given is that the Asokan Girnar
inscriptions (presumably in the same area) come closest to the Pali
and Mahinda and his sister were both born in Ujjenii. I discovered
that Ujjenii is also the birthplace of Maha Kaccaayana who is ascribed
by tradition to be the author of the grammar and other works. As I was
doing a random search on the web for Ujjain + Pali, I came upon an
article recently submitted to indology.net entitled: _On the Origin of
the Pali Language_ by Eisel Mazard. It just so happens that he is
working on a new edition of Kaccayana-vyakarana. He suggests the
influence of Kaccayana on Pali...

My thinking is that if Kaccayana had codified the grammar of Pali for
the purpose of preserving and keeping pure the language at such an
early stage then that is something to consider in how close Pali might
actually be to the language spoken by the Buddha and his followers in
Magadha. It may be a lot closer than many would have us believe. It's
not unreasonable to imagine that far-seeing arahants would be aware of
the need for preserving the purity of the language in a grammar
written by one of their own for the long duration of the saasana. I'm
not suggesting that the dialect of Ujjenii is what comes close to
Pali, but rather that Ujjenii or its surrounding area might have been
important for the preservation of the Maagadhabhaasaa. There
also seems to be a place called Pali in the same region. Anyway,
that's my two cents worth of speculation.

> Perhaps we should call it Magadhika to remind ourselves that it is
> based on a dialect used in the larger kingdom of Magadha.

Good idea! I found a list of various names for the language in Ledi
Sayadaw's Anudiipanii as follows:

Maagadhabhaasaa hi muulabhaasaati ca ariyabhaasaati ca
maagadhabhaasaati ca paa.libhaasaati ca dhammaniruttiiti ca
sabhaavaniruttiiti ca vuccati. -- p. 13

Apparently, Maagadhii is still being spoken in India under the name of
Magahii -- a Bihari dialect.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
913
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 0:54pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Jim,

>Thank-you for your interesting response which prompted me to give the
>matter more thought. Most of what you wrote sounds plausible to me,
>but sfter a bit of reading up on some of the various suggested origins
>of the Pali language by others, I find the one relating to Ujjenii of
>particular interest. This is the one proposed by Westergaard, Kuhn,
>Franke, and Konow according to Geiger, pp. 3-4 in his Pali Literature
>and Language. Some of the arguments given is that the Asokan Girnar
>inscriptions (presumably in the same area) come closest to the Pali
>and Mahinda and his sister were both born in Ujjenii.

We need to distinguish the historical issue from that of language. 
Very possibly at some point the Buddhist traditions which went 
southward passed through the area around Ujjain, Vidisa and Sanchi, 
but that doesn't mean that the language of their texts originated 
there.

On the linguistic issue there are still two views among scholars:

1. Most German scholars seem still to accept the view given above.

2. K.R.Norman (followed I think by many or most British scholars) has 
argued that the Girnar evidence shows only that the scribe there was 
Sanskritizing more. This has the effect of producing something closer 
to Pali. We do know that mechanical changes were being introduced. 
The scribe at Sopara (near to Girnar) writes mam.gara for mam.gala. 
In other words he is mechanically changing eastern 'l' to 'r' even 
when that is not appropriate. For Norman the home of Pali lies 
further East.

My own view is that Pali originates from the Deccan i.e. from an area 
where the native language was Dravidian. It is only here that it 
makes sense to keep the language as Middle Indian because the change 
to a Dravidian dialect would have been too great. If the Pali texts 
had been transmitted directly from a Prakrit speaking area to Ceylon, 
then they would automatically have been converted into Sinhal.a 
Prakrit. In the Northwest they were initially preserved in the local 
Gandhaarii dialect. Note that Asoka's inscriptions are in the local 
dialect in the northwest, but not so, in his southernmost domains in 
modern Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh - here he uses an eastern 
dialect, presumably his own or that of his officials. Many Buddhist 
sites dating back to the second century B.C. have been discovered in 
that area in recent decades.

> I discovered
>that Ujjenii is also the birthplace of Maha Kaccaayana who is ascribed
>by tradition to be the author of the grammar and other works. As I was
>doing a random search on the web for Ujjain + Pali, I came upon an
>article recently submitted to indology.net entitled: _On the Origin of
>the Pali Language_ by Eisel Mazard. It just so happens that he is
>working on a new edition of Kaccayana-vyakarana. He suggests the
>influence of Kaccayana on Pali...

For me this kind of early date for the grammar of Kaccaayana is just 
not believable. Buddhaghosa and the other early commentators seem to 
have no knowledge of Kaccaayana, although they do occasionally refer 
to Panini. How would one account for that if he is earlier ?

> I found a list of various names for the language in Ledi
>Sayadaw's Anudiipanii as follows:
>
>Maagadhabhaasaa hi muulabhaasaati ca ariyabhaasaati ca
>maagadhabhaasaati ca paa.libhaasaati ca dhammaniruttiiti ca
>sabhaavaniruttiiti ca vuccati. -- p. 13
>

Here at least paa.libhaasaa must mean 'language of the texts', not 
Pali language.

Best Wishes,

Lance

 
914
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:31pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Lance,

Thanks for the additional information and for your point of view.

> For me this kind of early date for the grammar of Kaccaayana is just
> not believable. Buddhaghosa and the other early commentators seem to
> have no knowledge of Kaccaayana, although they do occasionally refer
> to Panini. How would one account for that if he is earlier ?

The Apadaana commentary (ascribed to Buddhaghosa) states that
Mahaakaccaana expounded three treatises, including the grammar, in the
midst of the Sangha (see Ap-a 491). Later Pali grammarians also
consider him to be the author of the grammar. I'm not sure if one
could say that Buddhaghosa and the early commentators had no knowledge
of Kaccaayana's grammar, although Ole Pind seems to have come to that
conclusion in his JPTS article. It's clear to me, however, that the
commentators knew a great deal about the traditional Indian
grammatical system but it's hard to tell whether it's Kaccaayana's or
an adaptation from Sanskrit grammar, or otherwise. I think more study
is needed. I've come to the conclusion that a knowledge of traditional
Indian grammar is essential for a good understanding of the
innumerable linguistic analyses found in the commentaries.

With Buddhaghosa, I've long assumed that it was just the commentaries
that he translated from Siiha.labhaasaa to Maagadhabhaasaa. But from
the little reading I've done of the Buddhaghosuppatti so far, I get
the impression that he also did the same thing for the Tipi.taka. Is
that your understanding? It makes me wonder how Buddhaghosa came to
know the Maagadhabhaasaa so well before his translation work had
begun. And was this the old dialect spoken in the Buddha's time or one
spoken in Magadha at a much later time? He is said to have been born
in the Magadha country not far from Bodh Gaya.

> >Maagadhabhaasaa hi muulabhaasaati ca ariyabhaasaati ca
> >maagadhabhaasaati ca paa.libhaasaati ca dhammaniruttiiti ca
> >sabhaavaniruttiiti ca vuccati. -- p. 13
> >
>
> Here at least paa.libhaasaa must mean 'language of the texts', not
> Pali language.

Yes, I agree. That would be a cha.t.thitappurisa.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
915
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:14am
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Jim,

It's conference season here in Oxford; so I had no time to respond to 
this before.

>The Apadaana commentary (ascribed to Buddhaghosa) states that
>Mahaakaccaana expounded three treatises, including the grammar, in the
>midst of the Sangha (see Ap-a 491).

It has long been thought that Ap-a is much the latest of the extant 
commentaries - no other commentary or early .tiikaa refers to it. As 
far as I know, no text before the Gandhava.msa mentions a commentary 
on Apadaana by Buddhaghosa. If Buddhaghosa did write such a 
commentary, then it must have been a predecessor of the one still 
extant. Note that the introduction and conclusion to Ap-a does not 
attribute it to Buddhaghosa.

> Later Pali grammarians also
>consider him to be the author of the grammar. I'm not sure if one
>could say that Buddhaghosa and the early commentators had no knowledge
>of Kaccaayana's grammar, although Ole Pind seems to have come to that
>conclusion in his JPTS article.

Well, he certainly not the first to take that view. I am not in a 
position to evaluate that myself at present without a very great deal 
of work. So I will take that as my working hypothesis for now.

>It's clear to me, however, that the
>commentators knew a great deal about the traditional Indian
>grammatical system but it's hard to tell whether it's Kaccaayana's or
>an adaptation from Sanskrit grammar, or otherwise. I think more study
>is needed.

If someone comes up with evidence that they knew Kacc, I will have to 
modify my position. But, to be honest, I don't really expect that.

> I've come to the conclusion that a knowledge of traditional
>Indian grammar is essential for a good understanding of the
>innumerable linguistic analyses found in the commentaries.

I quite agree. And that of course is why study of Pali grammar became 
so important. And Kacc is the foundation of that.

>With Buddhaghosa, I've long assumed that it was just the commentaries
>that he translated from Siiha.labhaasaa to Maagadhabhaasaa. But from
>the little reading I've done of the Buddhaghosuppatti so far, I get
>the impression that he also did the same thing for the Tipi.taka. Is
>that your understanding? It makes me wonder how Buddhaghosa came to
>know the Maagadhabhaasaa so well before his translation work had
>begun. And was this the old dialect spoken in the Buddha's time or one
>spoken in Magadha at a much later time? He is said to have been born
>in the Magadha country not far from Bodh Gaya.

I think we have to discard all the post-ninth century information 
about Buddhaghosa. It is clearly legendary. Four centuries is quite 
long enough for all sorts of legends to develop. (In fact, I myself 
would date Buddhaghosa to the fourth century A.D.)

I can't believe that Buddhaghosa translated a Canon in Sinhalese 
Prakrit to what we call Pali. The Buddhaghosuppatti is the only text 
to say this but it is a very late text, perhaps 15th century. How 
could Buddhaghosa speak of the paa.libhaasaa 'language of the 
scriptures', if the scriptures were written in the Sinhalese dialect 
of the time ?

Lance

 
916
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:29pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Lance,

> It has long been thought that Ap-a is much the latest of the extant
> commentaries - no other commentary or early .tiikaa refers to it. As
> far as I know, no text before the Gandhava.msa mentions a commentary
> on Apadaana by Buddhaghosa. If Buddhaghosa did write such a
> commentary, then it must have been a predecessor of the one still
> extant. Note that the introduction and conclusion to Ap-a does not
> attribute it to Buddhaghosa.

In the CPD bibliography there is listed a .tiikaa on Ap-a (Pi.t-sm
226). But it reads like it's no longer extant. If it were, information
on the authorship of Ap-a might be found therein. The authorship of
Ap-a is given in CPD as (: Buddhaghosa !). The exclamation mark
suggests the compiler doesn't accept it though. The writer of the
Gandhava.msa might have had a source(s) that is no longer available on
which he could state that Buddhaghosa was the author.

As you know, I'm not one for disputing the traditional authorships or
dates of early texts even though there is no way I can be sure of
them. But at least I can accept them until I'm absolutely convinced
otherwise. One advanatage of believing that the great Kaccayana is the
source of the grammar is that one is more likely to take the study of
traditional Pali grammar more seriously and with greater respect. If
you take it as a work of a later Kaccayana from no earlier than the
7th century, then that could leave the impression that it might be
just some mediocre grammar by a third-rate author not so deserving of
study.

> I think we have to discard all the post-ninth century information
> about Buddhaghosa. It is clearly legendary. Four centuries is quite
> long enough for all sorts of legends to develop. (In fact, I myself
> would date Buddhaghosa to the fourth century A.D.)

I'd be interested in knowing what you base a 4th cent. dating on. The
mid-5th cent. (when he worked on the texts) is what I'm more familiar
with.

> I can't believe that Buddhaghosa translated a Canon in Sinhalese
> Prakrit to what we call Pali. The Buddhaghosuppatti is the only text
> to say this but it is a very late text, perhaps 15th century. How
> could Buddhaghosa speak of the paa.libhaasaa 'language of the
> scriptures', if the scriptures were written in the Sinhalese dialect
> of the time ?

Well, if Buddhaghosa was an Indian native who came to Sri Lanka at a
later time, there is the possibility that he could have mastered the
Maagadhabhaasaa elsewhere before coming to the island to set things
straight.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
917
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:39pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: some responses to Jim's comments
Dear Jim,

>In the CPD bibliography there is listed a .tiikaa on Ap-a (Pi.t-sm
>226). But it reads like it's no longer extant. If it were, information
>on the authorship of Ap-a might be found therein. The authorship of
>Ap-a is given in CPD as (: Buddhaghosa !). The exclamation mark
>suggests the compiler doesn't accept it though. The writer of the
>Gandhava.msa might have had a source(s) that is no longer available on
>which he could state that Buddhaghosa was the author.

I would not be surprised if the .tiikaa attributed it to Buddhaghosa 
and may be the source of the attribution in the Gandhava.msa. But 
that would not convince me at all. Have a careful look at the 
introduction and conclusion to Ap-a in the Burmese or VRI edition. I 
think if you do, you will see why I am sceptical.

>As you know, I'm not one for disputing the traditional authorships or
>dates of early texts even though there is no way I can be sure of
>them. But at least I can accept them until I'm absolutely convinced
>otherwise.

This is a methodological issue. There are good reasons for doubting 
traditional attributions when they are not attested until much later. 
There are many, many examples of famous names being attached to 
pseudonymous works at a later date from the literature of many 
societies.

> One advanatage of believing that the great Kaccayana is the
>source of the grammar is that one is more likely to take the study of
>traditional Pali grammar more seriously and with greater respect. If
>you take it as a work of a later Kaccayana from no earlier than the
>7th century, then that could leave the impression that it might be
>just some mediocre grammar by a third-rate author not so deserving of
>study.

Yes, I can see why you feel that and it did occur to me that I should 
not say anything for fear of discouraging people from studying Kacc. 
But on the whole it seems better to have an open discussion of the 
matter and then agree to differ, if appropriate. For myself I hope to 
decide whether or not Kacc is mediocre after studying it. I can see 
reasons why Buddhists might take a different view of it to 
specialists in Sanskrit grammar.

> > I think we have to discard all the post-ninth century information
>> about Buddhaghosa. It is clearly legendary. Four centuries is quite
>> long enough for all sorts of legends to develop. (In fact, I myself
>> would date Buddhaghosa to the fourth century A.D.)
>
>I'd be interested in knowing what you base a 4th cent. dating on. The
>mid-5th cent. (when he worked on the texts) is what I'm more familiar
>with.

Two things:

1. My own view that his writings fit better in the fourth century in 
terms of the overall development of Indian Buddhist thought.

2. Petra Kieffer-Pulz has shown that a fourth century dating is 
likely for the Vinaya commentary.

Lance Cousins

 
918
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:00pm
Subject: Re: Sadd: TOC (linga)
Hi Rett,

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I found your message quite a
challenging one to respond to as it's on a topic I still don't know
much about even after spending a fair amount of time on it over the
past week!

> >Jim:
> >Aggava.msa does not seem to give a definition of this particular
term
> >but does for 'li"nga' on page 641 where he gives two different
> >definitions....
>
> I even found a third directly after (Sd 197). I'm pretty sure that
he
> is defining different senses of the term, so there need not be a
> conflict between the definitions.

The Sd 197 rule is just an extension of the same definition at Sd 196.

> Monier Williams has 'linga' in grammatical contexts as meaning both
> 'gender' and 'praatipadika' (as you remarked on below)! And it looks
> likely that 'pakatiruupa' in Sadd is more or less equal to
> 'praatipadika'.
>
> >In the first definition he defines
> >it as a derived expression (nipphannavacana) having gender, etc.
and
> >gives the example of puriso [sic. shld read Buddho],
>
> Rett:
>
> Here is Sd 192, which you just referred to:
>
> 192 Visadattaadisahita.m liinatthagamaka.m nipphannavacana.m linga.m
>
> Linga is a derived expression clarifying what is obscure
> (liinatthagamaka) and accompanied by gender. (lit: accompanied by
> purity/brightness etc, i.e purity, impurity and
> neither-purity-nor-impurity)

I find 'gamaka.m' a hard one to interpret. Mmd 53 has the following:
liinam attha.m gamayatiiti li"nga.m. Here, 'gamayati' is a causative
verb of which Apte gives "make clear; signify, denote" among its
several meaning--so your 'clarifying' seems okay. I too translate
'nipphanna' (produced, effected) as 'derived'. I hope it's okay.

> I have some questions and proposals about this sutta and about its
> explanation which follows.
>
> First, Visadatta < visadda (clear, bright, manifest) + tta. I don't
> really see the connection to gender in the word Visada. But the
> following suttas (Sadd 193,194, 195) seem to define a visada
> expression as masculine, an avisada expression as feminine, and a
> neither-visada-nor-avisada expression as neuter.

One correction: your "< visadda" should be "< visada". Thanks for
pointing out my earlier error with "puriso" instead of "Buddho".

> So Visadattaadi (visada tta aadi) perhaps shouldn't read 'gender
> etc', but simply 'gender'. The aadi in this case would be the
> feminine and neuter. If expressed with an etc-phrase you might say
> 'masculine etc' meaning all genders.

I'm inclined to think of "visada" etc. as features of grammatical
gender.

> Is this connected to some idea of purity, where males are considered
> more pure than females? Or is it connected to an idea of light and
> dark, where males are light and females are dark? Or is visada a
> grammatical term that I just haven't found defined? I've looked in
MW
> and Apte, as well as the lean, unlovely PED without luck.

It doesn't seem to be mentioned in Kacc. and the only other grammar
I've seen it in is Ledi Sayadaw's. I think it is connected to the idea
of degrees of ambiguity regarding the inflectional endings eg.
feminines in -aa have the same -aaya suffix for 5 cases in the
singular. There is quite a bit on 'visada' etc. at Sadd I 220-5 where
you will see some statistical analyses of all three genders starting
at the bottom of page 220. I have not studied these pages, so not
sure if this is what Aggava.msa means by "visada" etc.

> Sd 192's exp has a fairly straightforward syntactic breakdown of the
> sutta, then continues:
>
> vutta.m hi: "rukkho ti vacana.m linga.m, lingattho tena diipito;
> eva.m linga ca lingatta.m atvaa yojeyya pa.n.dito" ti.
>
> What exactly is the point here? I'd translate roughly:
>
> For it is said: the expression 'rukkho' is linga, the linga-meaning
> is illuminated by it; the learned should construe (it) knowing linga
> and the linga-meaning thusly.

I think it's fairly simple. It's knowing the difference between the
word-form and what the word-form means or stands for. In Saussurean
terms: the signifier and the signified. This reminds me of the first
rule in Kacc: the meaning is properly understood through the letters
(attho akkharas~n~naato).

> Is it possible, that the second sense of linga you wondered about
> (which resembles praatipadika, and is coming below) is what is being
> called 'lingattha' here?: a sign-sense, while linga in this sutta
> refers to gender (as a further sign placed onto the bare form)? Or
> are there other ways to make sense of this quotation, and what it
has
> to contribute here?

I'm still puzzling over this sutta. I don't think you can equate
'li"nga' in the second sense with 'li"ngattha' even though 'li"nga' is
defined as having meaning (atthava.m).

> The quotation (about rukkho) appears to be from the Mmd (53), which
> you're working on anyway. Would it be possible to look more closely
> there?

I've had a look and made a transcription of it. It's mostly related to
Sd 192 and I've already quoted from it. For Sd 196 you have to look at
Mmd 284 (li"ngatthe pa.thamaa) which runs to four pages. I've only
gone over the first half page of it. It menitons paa.tipadika and even
sakkatagantha (Sanskrit book) several times. I will try and make a
complete transcription of the four pages in the near future.

> > But I'm not sure if Aggava.msa takes them both
> >to refer to the same thing. Having two different definitions of
> li"nga
> >is also confusing to me. The second defn. of li"nga is similar to
> >Panini's defn. of praatipadika.
>
> Do you have handy where in Panini that definition occurs?

The praatipadika definition is given at 1.2.45-6

> > There is also the 'a"nga'
> >(inflectional base) term used in Panini that I still haven't sorted
> >out.

The definition for this one can be found at 1.4.13.

> How did you read pa.tichanna.m anga.m ?

I read it as "hidden base". It seems to be a synonym of li"nga. Mmd
284 has "liina.m a"nga.m" instead and equates 'liina.m' with
'apaaka.ta.m'. This 'anga' just adds another difficulty.

I'm still studying the matter and will let you know if it gets any
clearer.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
919
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:48pm
Subject: Mmd: (ka) part 1
Dear members,

This a continuation from the 2 introductory verses to the
Mukhamattadiipanii first posted here on Aug. 28. The (ka) refers to
the first of Kaccaayana's 2 introductory verses which Vajirabuddhi is
commenting on. Instead of using regular punctuation marks (commas,
periods, etc.) in the text, I have opted to reproduce the vertical
bars exactly as found in my Burmese edition except that here they are
slashes: / or //.

Text (from Mmd, pp.1-2):
(ka) ya.mki~nci gantha.m samaarabhitukaamena taavaacariyena
ratanattayassa pa.naama.m katvaa tabbihatantaraayena
samaarabhitabbanti baatti.msamahaapurisalakkha.na-
sabba~n~nutaadigu.nasampattisama"ngitaaya buddhassa / [2]
svaakhyaatataadibhaavena dhammassa ca / suppa.tipannataadibhaavena
sa"nghassa ca sabbalokaabhivandaniiyassa attano satthuno pa.naama.m
dassento se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagganti aadimaaha //

Translation:
(ka) Since any book which a teacher wishes to begin should first of
all begin after he has performed salutation to the Triple Gem with his
impediments destroyed, he (Kaccaayana) said: "Having venerated the
Best One, revered by the three worlds, the Chief " and so on showing
his salutation to the Buddha with his being endowed with the success
of the qualities of the thirty-two characteristics of a great man,
omniscience and so on, [2] to the Dhamma with its condition of being
well-proclaimed and so on, to the Sa"ngha with its condition of being
entered on the good way and so on, and to his own teacher who is
worthy of veneration by all the worlds.

Notes:
1) Since (iti from samaarabhitabban_ti_ in the sense of 'cause' --
hetu or kaara.na) any book which (ya.mki~nci gantha.m -- acc. object
of samaarabhitukaamena) a teacher (aacariyena -- instrumental agent)
wishes to begin (samaarabhitukaamena) should (see 'begin') first of
all (taava = pa.thama.m as adverb) begin (preceded by 'should' --
samaarabhitabba.m) after he has performed (katvaa) salutation
(pa.naama.m -- acc.) to the Triple Gem (ratanattayassa -- dat.) with
his impediments destroyed (tabbihatantaraayena).

2) I take it that 'gantha.m' (book) is the subject of
'samaarabhitabba.m' but, since 'gantha.m' (masc. 'gantho') is in the
accusative, is it proper for 'gantha.m' to be doing double duty here
as the object of the infinitive 'samaarabhitu-' as well as the
subject of the future passive participle 'samaarabhitabba.m'? If it
weren't for the infinitive wouldn't 'samaarabhitabbo' be the correct
form if we had 'gantho' instead?

3) I think 'tabbihatantaraayena' can also be read as a 3rd or 6th
tappurisa, but here I'm following the bahubbiihi interpretation of the
Abhinava.tiikaa on 'suvihatantaraayo' in Buddhaghosa's introductory
verses to the Sumangalavilaasinii ie. -- pa.naamapayojane
vuttavidhinaa su.t.thu vihato viddhasto antaraayo assaati
suvihatantaraayo (Sv-abhinava.t I 25). I have left 'tab-' untranslated
as I'm uncertain about it--could be either 'tena' (by this or him) or
'tassa' (his). The 'with his' (= whose) I have in the translation is
to link the adjectival cpd. to 'aacariyena'. A plural 'impediments'
sounds better than the singular and I believe '-antaraayena' can be
read as either a singular or a plural in a bahubbiihi.

4) The 'abhivandaniiyassa' (worthy of veneration) in
'sabbalokaabhivandaniiyassa' is not a fut. pass. part.
(abhi-vand-aniiya) but rather a secondary word derived from
'abhivandana' + the taddhita affix 'iiya' (in the sense of worthy,
deserving) like 'dakkhi.neyya' or 'dakkhi.niiya' meaning 'worthy of
offerings'. I could not find this affix in Kaccaaayana but it is
included in Sd 775 (arahatthe iiy' eyyaa).

5) Although a 'ca' (and) comes after both 'dhammassa' and
'sa"nghassa', there is none in the phrase 'sabbalokaabhivandaniiyassa
attano satthuno' where I would have expected one.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
920
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:31pm
Subject: 1916 edition of the Baalaavataara
[I'm here replying on-list to an off-list discussion with Jim, which 
included the invitation to join the list] 

[Jim:]
-----------------
One problem facing someone in the West in studying such
grammars is getting a hold of them and so few of them have been
printed in Roman characters making it necessary to learn some new
scripts as I have done with Devanagari, Burmese, and now Thai. It
would be helpful if you could keep on the lookout for such grammars
and how to order them from Thailand.
-----------------
[Eisel:] 

I should mention a few things here,
(1) I made a copy of a 1916 edition of the Baalaavataaro yesterday; it has 
the Pali in Devanagari and Roman, plus solid english translation and 
explanation of the content. I am eager to make a study of it. The copy at 
the National Library (Bangkok) was literally falling apart, and had been a 
meal for many an insect. I had never heard of this edition before: it is 
published by the University of Calcutta, 1916. They also had two small 
Romanized Pali primers by Tilde, published out of the Rangoon Baptist 
Mission --although I know of two other Pali textbooks that came out of that 
operation, these books were news to me (and Tilde himself I had not heard of 
before).
(2) The edition of the Vyakara.na that I am preparing is not Romanized --it 
has parallel Burmese and Sinhalese script. The Sinhalese is in proper, 
classical-literary Sinhalese, not the modern form (quite a technological 
feat, owed to www.xenotypetech.com). I will prepare a second edition in 
Khmer (Cambodian) possibly with Lao-Dhamma script in parallel, due to the 
great need for Pali textbooks in that part of the world. I think it is 
enormously important to build up one's ability in indigenous scripts, 
especially the palm-leaf manuscript forms --although, if you live in a part 
of the world where no manuscripts exist, I suppose this skill is of 
diminished value.
(3) I have been very active in trying to survey and report some of the Pali 
resources here in Bangkok --I made a trip to Ko Kret to inspect the Mon 
(Dvaravati) materials, and the aforementioned trip to Ubon was likewise to 
see what they had in the way of Pali manuscripts (in Lao-Dhamma script). 
The National Library here is a great disappointment to me --although they 
have one beautiful, fragile edition of 1904 in stylized Mon script. 
Presumably the Siam Society library will be better organized, if/when I get 
there. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Those who are infatuated with lust fall back into the stream as (does) a 
spider into the web spun by itself. This too the wise cut off and wander, 
with no longing, released from all sorrow.
Random Dhammapada Verse 347

 
921
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:49pm
Subject: Re: 1916 edition of the Baalaavataara
Dear Eisel,

Welcome to the list and thanks for your interesting report. I have
never studied the Baalaavataaro but I know it to be an important text
belonging to the Kaccaayana school. It seems that the early 20th
century was a very good time for the publication of many Pali
grammars, most of which are now out of print.

The following is a new book that has been published recently and has a
section on grammar books:

Peter Skilling and Santi Pakdeekham
Pali and Vernacular Literature Transmitted in Central and Northern
Siam August, 2004. lxxxii + 474 pp., 16 figs.
ISBN 974-13-3150-9. (available from the Pali Text Society)

Best wishes,
Jim

> [I'm here replying on-list to an off-list discussion with Jim, which
> included the invitation to join the list]
>
> [Jim:]

[...]

 
922
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:23pm
Subject: Re: 1916 edition of the Baalaavataara
Hi again Eisel,

I think "Tilde" should be "Tilbe". In S. Hanayama's Bibliography on
Buddhism, the following 3 books by H.H. Tilbe are listed:

1. Pali Grammar. 8vo, vii, 115 pp. 1899
2. Pali Buddhism. 12mo, vi, 55pp. 1900
3. Pali First Lessons. 8vo, x, 124pp. 1902

All were published by the American Baptist Mission Press in Rangoon
(Student's Pali Series). Nos. 1 & 3 are also listed on p.60 in
Geiger's Pali Literature and Language. I was also unaware of this
author until now.

Jim

They also had two small
> Romanized Pali primers by Tilde, published out of the Rangoon
Baptist
> Mission --although I know of two other Pali textbooks that came out
of that
> operation, these books were news to me (and Tilde himself I had not
heard of
> before).

 
923
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:46am
Subject: Re: 1916 edition of the Baalaavataara
One piece of "bad" news about the book: as I sat down with it for a few 
minutes yesterday, I found it extremely valuable and useful, but, alas, it 
is only volume 1, of an unknown number of volumes. I can compare it to the 
e-text of the Pali ang guess how many volumes there are in total, but I'll 
have to start snooping around for the rest of the edition. Again, "Maybe at 
the Siam Society they'll have it..." but maybe not. 

The Baalaavataara is indeed of Kaccayana's school --although my usual 
references on this (Hinuber & Malalasekera) are in a box on the other side 
of Bangkok, so I can't look it up at the moment. 

This raises a tangental but useful question: is anyone here using the two 
volume _The Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Pali Literature_ as a reference work 
for Pali grammars of antiquity? If so, is it good enough to justify the 
price, or the weight (i.e., lugging it around Thailand)? 

E.M. 


> 
> Dear Eisel, 
> 
> Welcome to the list and thanks for your interesting report. I have
> never studied the Baalaavataaro but I know it to be an important text
> belonging to the Kaccaayana school. It seems that the early 20th
> century was a very good time for the publication of many Pali
> grammars, most of which are now out of print. 
> 
> The following is a new book that has been published recently and has a
> section on grammar books: 
> 
> Peter Skilling and Santi Pakdeekham
> Pali and Vernacular Literature Transmitted in Central and Northern
> Siam August, 2004. lxxxii + 474 pp., 16 figs.
> ISBN 974-13-3150-9. (available from the Pali Text Society) 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim 
> 
>> [I'm here replying on-list to an off-list discussion with Jim, which
>> included the invitation to join the list] 
>>
>> [Jim:]
> 
> [...] 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/GP4qlB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
As he instructs others so should he himself act. Himself fully controlled, 
he should control (others); for oneself, indeed, is difficult to control.
Random Dhammapada Verse 159

 
924
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:57am
Subject: Description of my "forthcoming" edition of the Kaccayanavyakarana
As I was invited to join this list on account of my work on the 
Kaccayanavyakarana (diacritics omitted) I thought I should post a general 
description of it --as it is a most peculiar endeavour I have undertaken. 

The following is the "polite and evasive" description I provided to the Pali 
Text Society, in reply to an e-mail that encouraged me to "consider 
publishing with them" if my edition included a new translation of the source 
text. I take it the PTS doesn't have too rigorous a screen process in place 
these days! Well, good for them; they'll receive a lot of really terrible 
manuscripts from California students of computational linguistics, and they 
will have the pleasure of rejecting them (I hope). 

In any case, the description following assumes the reader has never seen the 
text in question, so please do not be offended if you find it too general or 
pedantic.
----------------
Mr. Pruit, 

Thank you very much for your concern; one of your colleagues has already
forwarded my original message to Dr. Pind. He sent me two messages almost
immediately thereafter, describing the scope and nature of his forthcoming
work. His methodology is quite different from mine, as he will be
reconstructing the _vutti_ on the basis of inferences from the commentaries.
Ideally, I would like to model my own text on at least one manuscript
edition that has not heretofore been examined or published (I believe there
are several candidates here at the National Library in Bangkok, and in the
more obscure Mon collections surrounding the city), but at the moment I am
still working through the comparative reading of multiple "known" editions
of the source text. 

Regarding future publication with the PTS: one of the distinctive
characteristics of my edition will be the presentation of the complete text
in indigenous scripts (I am currently preparing the Pali text in parallel
columns of Burmese & Classical-Literary-Sinhalese; there will be a second
version of the text with the Pali in Khmer ("Cambodian") script --all of
these are typeset in Unicode). As the PTS is dedicated to the Romanization
of the Pali Prakrit, I don't think it would be a good match. 

The edition will be a general textbook, comprising material drawn from
several rather ancient sources: (1) the complete Kaccaayanavyaakara.na, (2)
a new edition of Mason's rather ancient Pali grammar based on and partly
glossing Kaccayana's (this has involved an enormous ammount of correction,
editing, and comparative reading, as no two sources agree on many of the
most basic assumptions that go into grammatical textbooks in this language),
and (3) some combination of vocabulary, glossary and translation to
accompany the Vyakara.na itself. Throughout, all Pali text (in the current
version) is typeset in both Burmese and Literary-Sinhalese (i.e., the latter
with all its glorious ligatures, not the modern use of the Hal-Akuru), and
there are even a great many passages typeset in the Mauryan-Brahmi script
(i.e., of the Ashokan inscriptions). All of this is rather on the leading
edge of what is possible with computers these days, and this is, in fact,
the only reason why I am waiting to work on the Khmer version separately;
Unicode-typeset Khmer will only become fully possible with some corrections
to the Mac O.S. in 2005. 

The Vyakara.na was already translated into English in a somewhat obscure
edition of 1904; as the copyright has lapsed, the PTS could reprint it.
That edition reproduced the Pali in Devanagari; and this is perhaps why it
is so little known! 

At this stage of the work, many would ask "Why not prepare a translation of
your own?", but several factors deter me at present. I have full-time
employment in the Museum profession [reducing the number of hours I have to
work on this book], and, quite apart from practical concerns, I am more
eager to arrange for a translation of the English content (i.e., of the
general grammar and gloss/explanation) into modern Khmer ("Cambodian") --for
there is an acute need for Pali textbooks in that language. 

Frankly, there is an acute need for better Pali textbooks in English; but I
will not digress. 

The primary value of the Kaccayanavyakara.na is really in memorizing it as
a set of mnemonic keys to the grammar; thus, while explaining the content is
very important, direct translation of the text is not quite as useful. It
is a book composed of aphorisms along the lines of the English rhyming rule:
"'i' before 'e' except after 'c'
or when with an 'ay'
as in 'neighbor' or 'weigh'"
--which is to say, much of it is entirely baffling, except as a reminder of
a rule you're supposed to already understand. 

Apart from its didactic value (i.e., for aspiring palicists like myself)
the book is also of enormous historical significance --and, in comparison to
the study of Panini among Sanskritists-- it has been very much neglected in
Pali studies. So I hope that both my edition and Dr. Pind's will revive the
study of the book, which has been dormant (in the west) for 100 years, and
seems to have faded in Burma and Sri Lanka, if not entirely in Thailand, 

Best regards, 

Eisel Mazard
Bangkok, Nov. 9th 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
He who, without anger, endures reproach, flogging and punishments, whose 
power and the potent army is patience, - him I call a Brahmana.
Random Dhammapada Verse 399

 
925
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:12am
Subject: Re: Re: 1916 edition of the Baalaavataara
Dear Eisel,

> One piece of "bad" news about the book: as I sat down with it for a
few
> minutes yesterday, I found it extremely valuable and useful, but,
alas, it
> is only volume 1, of an unknown number of volumes. I can compare it
to the
> e-text of the Pali ang guess how many volumes there are in total,
but I'll
> have to start snooping around for the rest of the edition. Again,
"Maybe at
> the Siam Society they'll have it..." but maybe not.

I find it odd that the Baalaavataara would take up more than 1 volume.
I checked the Sinhalese etext version from the JBE website and found
that it is relatively small in size at 83 pages. The CSCD version is
quite defective in that it ends abruptly at about the midpoint of the
text and opens up with some external verses from a
Baalaavataaraga.n.thipada not found in the Sinhalese version.

The bibliography of Pali grammatical texts that I consult most often
is in the Epilegomena to Vol. I of the Critical Pali Dictionary, 1948.
The entry for the Baalaavataara is as follows:

5.1,5 Baalaav // Baalaavataara (: Dhammakitti, Saddhammakitti, Pi.t-sm
407), Ce, with editor's .tiikaa, Colombo 1892 (Hikka.duve
Suma"ngala).

Also listed are 4 commentaries on the Baalaavataara:
1. Baalaavataara-.tiikaa (: Uttama)
2. Subodhikaa, Baalaavataara-.tiikaa (: Hikka.duve Suma"ngala)
3. Ga.dalaade.ni-sannaya, Baalaavataarayehi puraa.na-vyaakhyaanaya
4. Okondapola-sannaya, Baalaavataara-liyanasannaya (: Sitinaamaluve
Dhammajoti)

I suspect the last two are in the Sinhalese language.

Jim

 
926
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:43pm
Subject: Book queries
Hi Navako, and welcome to the group. I forwarded your query to a 
friend who can probably rustle up these books. Are you in need of 
photocopies?

best regards,

/Rett

>>A general query about two books that seem to me highly useful, but that I
>>have not yet been able to lay my hands upon:
>>
>>(1) Rasmus Rask's 1821 _Singalesisk Skriftlre_,
>>
>>(2) James Gray's 1883 "Elements of Pali Grammar" --originally printed by the
>>Baptist Missionary Press in Rangoon, but apparently reprinted in Calcutta in
>the first decade of the 20th century.
>

 
927
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:18pm
Subject: Re: Book queries --Baptist Pali Grammars
I would be extremely interested in photocopies --especially of the latter of 
the two (James Gray's 1883 "Elements of Pali Grammar"), which I am told is 
fairly short (and should not be very onerous to reproduce or ship). 
However, if the first of the two (Rasmus Rask's) is enormous, or presents 
other difficulties, please advise. As I say, I have never seen the book, 
and I do not mean to impose; however, Rask is one source that all modern 
authors seem to agree was an absolute genius (and, specifically, that he was 
the most brilliant linguist of his age) --and yet, few to none of those 
opinions are based on his work on South-Asian and South-East-Asian languages 
(his earlier work explained the origins of Nordic and Hungarian, as I 
recall). So I am indeed very interested to see what he has to say about 
Pali. 

Regarding Tilbe (formerly mis-spelled Tilde --sorry about that. Even worse 
if you mix up Ubon and Udon in this part of the world --you'll end up on the 
wrong train) it seems to me that makes four 19th-century Baptists who wrote 
Pali grammars in what is now modern Burma ("Myanmar"):
- F. Mason
- C. Duroiselle
- J. Gray
- Tilbe 

It also seems to me noteworthy that none of these missionaries attempted the 
translation of the Christian Bible into Pali --the one attempt to do so was 
by Wesleyan missionaries in Sri Lanka. Their interest in Pali may have been 
purely as an aid to assisting them in translating into Burmese --F. Mason 
comments at length that literary Burmese is a closed book so long as one 
does not know Pali. 

E.M. 


> Hi Navako, and welcome to the group. I forwarded your query to a 
> friend who can probably rustle up these books. Are you in need of 
> photocopies? 
> 
> best regards, 
> 
> /Rett 
> 
>>>A general query about two books that seem to me highly useful, but that I
>>>have not yet been able to lay my hands upon: 
>>>
>>>(1) Rasmus Rask's 1821 _Singalesisk Skriftlre_, 
>>>
>>>(2) James Gray's 1883 "Elements of Pali Grammar" --originally printed by the
>>>Baptist Missionary Press in Rangoon, but apparently reprinted in Calcutta in
>>the first decade of the 20th century. 
>>
> 
> 
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> 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Let both laymen and monks think, "by myself was this done; in everywork, 
great or small, let them refer to me". Such is the ambition of the fool; his 
desires and pride increase.
Random Dhammapada Verse 


928
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:48pm
Subject: Gheppanti vs. Ga.nhaanti in Kaccayana
Mason's interpretation of Kaccayana explains (or assumes?) that Gheppanti 
and Ga.nhaanti are one and the same verb. I have never seen Gheppaami / 
gheppasi / gheppanti before, and the original verse in the 
Kaccayanavyakarana simply lists them as two examples (and, NB, in the same 
fashion that prior verses have listed examples of various different verbs). 

So my question is a simple one: are these in fact two forms of the same 
verb? Or is Gheppanti of a different meaning/root from ga.nhaanti? 

Sorry, but my lexical resources are proving to be of no help at all on this 
quesiton. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
In this world whatever gift or alms a person seeking merit should offer for 
a year, all that is not worth a single quarter of the reverence towards the 
Upright which is excellent.
Random Dhammapada Verse 108

 
929
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:56pm
Subject: Re: 1916 edition of the Baalaavataara
Jim, 

> I find it odd that the Baalaavataara would take up more than 1 volume.
> I checked the Sinhalese etext version from the JBE website and found
> that it is relatively small in size at 83 pages.

Yes, but the text becomes much longer when you write out the Pali in two 
scripts, and provide English translation and explanation. This "First 
Volume" is also quite slim; but as I said in the first place, I, too, was 
surprised and disappointed that it was not the whole book, as the Balavatara 
is a short work. Vol. 1 ends with Chapter 12, apparently the last book of 
nouns. The original Pali is divided into 50 parts --isn't it? 

> The CSCD version is
> quite defective in that it ends abruptly at about the midpoint of the
> text and opens up with some external verses from a
> Baalaavataaraga.n.thipada not found in the Sinhalese version.

The etext I looked at was from the Goettingen Register of Electronic Texts. 
But I have only had a few minutes to think about this.
> 
> The bibliography of Pali grammatical texts that I consult most often
> is in the Epilegomena to Vol. I of the Critical Pali Dictionary, 1948.
> The entry for the Baalaavataara is as follows:

Thanks for the quotation --I don't own a copy of the CPD for reference. I'm 
waiting for the Danes to finish the book! Maybe in another 50 years. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
He is not therefore an Ariya (Noble) if he harms living beings; through his 
harmlessness towards all living beings is he called an Ariya (Noble).
Random Dhammapada Verse 270

 
930
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 0:03am
Subject: Balavatara 1935 edition
Apparently an "abridged version" of the earlier edition I've gotten a copy 
of (albeit vol. 1 only), here's the citation for a 1935 Balavatara 
--currently on-sale at abebooks.com 

E.M.
-------------------------------------
Balavatara.
Price: US$ 29.90 [Convert Currency]
Shipping: [Rates and Speeds] 
Add Book to Shopping Basket
Book Details


Book Description: An Elementary Pali Grammar Abridged for the Under-Graduate 
Course. Originally edited and translated by Satischandra Vidyabhusana and 
Punnananda Swami. Revised and recast by Sailendranath Mitra. Calcutta 1935. 
viiii,116 pages. Original cloth.[#85416]. Bookseller Inventory #laEl200B66 

Bookseller: Redins antikvariat (Uppsala, ., Sweden) 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
The wise ones who are intent on meditation, who delight in the peace of 
renunciation (i.e. Nibbana), such mindful perfect Buddhas even the gods hold 
(most) dear.
Random Dhammapada Verse 181

 
931
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:55am
Subject: Re: Gheppanti vs. Ga.nhaanti in Kaccayana
Hi,

>
>So my question is a simple one: are these in fact two forms of the same
>verb? Or is Gheppanti of a different meaning/root from ga.nhaanti?

Here's what Pischel says:

(548) "M. JM. AMg. A. use for it gheppai= Pali gheppati, wich the 
Indian grammarians [examples snipped] and the European scholars drag 
to grabh, however, belongs to the parallel root *gh.rp ."

(I haven't seen that root, so I'm assuming the * means a 
reconstructed form here)

Saddaniiti:

Dhaatumaalaa has under: "1267 gaha upaadaane"
"gheppati ga.nhaati vaa"

Suttamaalaa has under " 931 gahaadito yathaaraha.m aakhyaatatte 
naamatte ca ppa-.nha "

"... ppa .nha" icc ete paccayaa honti kattari: gheppati ga.nhati

which is parallel to Kacc 452 (the Kacc sutta you meant?).

Hope this is of help. I haven't looked into this beyond finding and 
quoting these references. YMMV. At least Mason's interpretation 
appears to be supported by the indigenous tradition.

best regards

/Rett

 
932
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:08am
Subject: Re: Book queries --Baptist Pali Grammars
>I would be extremely interested in photocopies --especially of the latter of
>the two (James Gray's 1883 "Elements of Pali Grammar"), which I am told is
>fairly short (and should not be very onerous to reproduce or ship). 
>However, if the first of the two (Rasmus Rask's) is enormous, or presents
>other difficulties, please advise.

Hi,

Acc to my friend Gunilla, Rask is a mere 16 pages. By the way, a copy 
is for sale from a Danish used bookstore:

RASK, RASMUS: Singalesisk Skriftlre. Kolombo 1821. 16 s. Samt. 
hlvlrd. Contp. half cloth on marbled boards, title label on upper 
cover, rubbed.
 Bibl. Dan. IV, 83. I 1816 drog Rask ud p en stor rejse, der frte 
ham helt til Sydstasien. Han var vk i 6 r og ruten gik fra 
Sverige, Finland, Rusland tvrs gennem Persien til Indien og Ceylon. 
Motivationen for rejsen var hans studier af vore forfdres oprindelse 
og forbindelsen mellem de europiske og asiatiske sprog.
The famous linguist Rasmus Rask (1787-1832) spent two years (1820-22) 
of his long travels in India, where he went from Bombay to Calcutta, 
Madras, Trankebar, and then Ceylon. He returned to Denmark in 1823 
with a treasure of manuscripts that he had collected for the 
University Library and the Royal Library, which, thanks to him, now 
holds the most important collection of Pali manuscripts in Europe. 
After his return he taught as Professor of the History of Literature 
in Copenhagen.
The present book "The Written Language of Singhalese" is very rare 
and was printed (in Danish) in Ceylon. First and only edition. In 
this work Rask compares the Singhalese with Sanskrit, Pali, Tamil, 
Telugi and other Asian languages. He deals with the phonetics, 
pronunciation, accentuation and numerals.
USD~ 2,173  ask Peter Grosell's Antikvariat, Kbenhavn K (DK)  GRO90166 

Only 2000 dollars :-)

Anyhow, Gunilla said she could scan it and make a PDF file over the 
weekend. Gray is supposed to be around somewhere, and it sounds 
interesting to me too, so I hope we can make it available in an 
e-edition also.

best regards,

/Rett

 
933
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:06am
Subject: Re: Gheppanti vs. Ga.nhaanti in Kaccayana
Various forms of this verb are referred to in a number of different 
Pali grammars, but I do not know any example of non-grammatical use 
in Pali at the moment. It is discussed in Pischel's Prakrit Grammar 
(212). He refers to various examples e.g. in Ardhamagadhi and 
derives it from an unattested Sanskrit form: *gh.rpyati = g,rhyate.

Lance Cousins

>Mason's interpretation of Kaccayana explains (or assumes?) that Gheppanti
>and Ga.nhaanti are one and the same verb. I have never seen Gheppaami /
>gheppasi / gheppanti before, and the original verse in the
>Kaccayanavyakarana simply lists them as two examples (and, NB, in the same
>fashion that prior verses have listed examples of various different verbs).
>
>So my question is a simple one: are these in fact two forms of the same
>verb? Or is Gheppanti of a different meaning/root from ga.nhaanti?
>
>Sorry, but my lexical resources are proving to be of no help at all on this
>quesiton.
>
>E.M.

 
934
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:53am
Subject: Re: Mmd- (ka) part
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the interesting translation. I'd like to pose a question about this.

>4) The 'abhivandaniiyassa' (worthy of veneration) in
>'sabbalokaabhivandaniiyassa' is not a fut. pass. part.
>(abhi-vand-aniiya) but rather a secondary word derived from
>'abhivandana' + the taddhita affix 'iiya' (in the sense of worthy,
>deserving) like 'dakkhi.neyya' or 'dakkhi.niiya' meaning 'worthy of
>offerings'. I could not find this affix in Kaccaaayana but it is
>included in Sd 775 (arahatthe iiy' eyyaa).

It's my understanding that since the fpp ending -aniiya is added to 
verb stems, a special rule is needed to account for the small number 
of words formed by analogy from nouns (like dakkhinneyya). So, for 
instance, Panini V.1.69, 70 prescribe -iiya and -ya in the sense of 
'deserving that' for three specific nouns including dak.si.na. Hence 
the rule has a functional justification in the system. Those attested 
words need to be justified, and nouns require taddhita affixes.

But there doesn't seem to be a need for this rule for most of the 
examples provided at Sd 775 (dassaniiya, vandaniiya, namassaniiya, 
puujaniiya). Since verb > abstract noun with ana > +iiya gives the 
same formal result as stem + aniiya they could just as well be 
derived using the main rule at Sd 1125:

1125 bhaave kamme ca tabbaaniiyaa (in the impersonal sense and in the 
passive -tabba -aniiya)

So I'm wondering why Sadd includes words like vandaniiya at Sd 775, 
and also how that list of examples is to be taken. Is it meant as an 
exhaustive list of specific exceptions to 1125? Or are they just 
meant as examples of a form that has been observed?

The examples appear to have to do with things that are reverenced or 
are connected with ceremony in some way, or where the resulting 
-aniiya word is often used as an epithet of the Buddha or arahants. 
Could there be a dogmatic or pious consideration coming into play 
here? Could it have to do with the form of the rule itself, that it 
uses the term arahati (deserves) which elevates the status of words 
generated by this rule?

best regards,

/Rett

935
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Mmd- (ka) part 1 (aniiya/iiya)
Hi Rett,

> >4) The 'abhivandaniiyassa' (worthy of veneration) in
> >'sabbalokaabhivandaniiyassa' is not a fut. pass. part.
> >(abhi-vand-aniiya) but rather a secondary word derived from
> >'abhivandana' + the taddhita affix 'iiya' (in the sense of worthy,
> >deserving) like 'dakkhi.neyya' or 'dakkhi.niiya' meaning 'worthy of
> >offerings'. I could not find this affix in Kaccaaayana but it is
> >included in Sd 775 (arahatthe iiy' eyyaa).
>
> It's my understanding that since the fpp ending -aniiya is added to
> verb stems, a special rule is needed to account for the small number
> of words formed by analogy from nouns (like dakkhinneyya). So, for
> instance, Panini V.1.69, 70 prescribe -iiya and -ya in the sense of
> 'deserving that' for three specific nouns including dak.si.na. Hence
> the rule has a functional justification in the system. Those
> attested words need to be justified, and nouns require taddhita
affixes.
>
> But there doesn't seem to be a need for this rule for most of the
> examples provided at Sd 775 (dassaniiya, vandaniiya, namassaniiya,
> puujaniiya). Since verb > abstract noun with ana > +iiya gives the
> same formal result as stem + aniiya they could just as well be
> derived using the main rule at Sd 1125:
>
> 1125 bhaave kamme ca tabbaaniiyaa (in the impersonal sense and in
> the passive -tabba -aniiya)

This rule is too general, like for impersonal and passive verbs. The
rule needed here instead is like the ones for the special uses of the
tenses. For the kicca suffixes (tabba, aniiya, ya, and other forms) we
need to turn to the rules about the various uses found at Sd 1244-5 on
p.862. These uses are: pesa (direction), atisagga (permission),
pattakaala (proper time), avassaka (necessity), and adhami.na
(indebtedness?). Note that I'm just repeating Vasu's renderings of the
equivalent terms in Panini (near the end of Bk 3, Ch 3). The problem
here is that there isn't any for 'araha' (worthy, deserving) even
though the following rule 1246 for the infinitive does include it.
Panini, however, does have a rule that includes the araha (arha)
meaning for the kicca (k.rtya) suffixes at 3.3.169. The Sadd exclusion
of the meaning of capability is also problematic because I think that
one is needed too for those -able words like peyya (drinkable). I have
no idea why Kaccaayana or Aggava.msa would leave out or overlook such
rules.

> So I'm wondering why Sadd includes words like vandaniiya at Sd 775,
> and also how that list of examples is to be taken. Is it meant as an
> exhaustive list of specific exceptions to 1125? Or are they just
> meant as examples of a form that has been observed?

According to Aggavamsa, they aren't related to 1125 because these
words do not contain kicca suffixes-- the iiya and eyya here belong to
the taddhita class of suffixes. However, according to Panini, except
for dakkhi.niiya or dakkhi.neyya the remaining examples have kicca
suffixes and don't need to be included in a rule like this.

> The examples appear to have to do with things that are reverenced or
> are connected with ceremony in some way, or where the resulting
> -aniiya word is often used as an epithet of the Buddha or arahants.
> Could there be a dogmatic or pious consideration coming into play
> here? Could it have to do with the form of the rule itself, that it
> uses the term arahati (deserves) which elevates the status of words
> generated by this rule?

I think the example in "Amara.m naama nagara.m dassaneyya.m
manorama.m" (Amara, a city worth seeing, delightful...) would be an
exception. I think we would have to look for many more examples in
order to get a much better idea of the most likely context that these
kinds of words are found in. Aggava.msa's examples certainly do seem
to suggest the interesting points you make here. But it's far too
early to draw any definite conclusion just yet.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
936
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:18pm
Subject: Litttle-known Lao Pali Grammar
The following quote is from an article by H. Saddhatissa: 

----------------
The _Chaturaasiitidhammakkhandhasahassasa.mva.n.nanaa_ is ... a composite 
work in Pali and Lao. A fragment of it, the _Akkharagi.n.thi_, constitutes 
a grammar, including a chapter on _sadda_. The bulk of the manuscript, 
however, is taken up with an explanation of the division of the canonical 
texts into 84,000 sections.
---------------- 

If this sounds familiar to anyone, I would be interested to know more. The 
only footnote to the above quote is as follows: "_Vide_ Finot's description 
(BEFEO, XVII, 5, pg. 76)" --i.e., the bulletin of the "Ecole Francaise 
d'Extreme Orient", I suppose. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Like a fish that is drawn from its watery abode and thrown upon land, even 
so does this mind flutter. Hence should the realm of the passions be 
shunned.
Random Dhammapada Verse 34

 
937
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:25am
Subject: Litttle-known Mon Pali materials
Below is a brief account of the Mon-Pali materials I found in a research 
trip to a Mon island north of Nonthaburi (about a month ago). Although 
other collections of Thai Mon and Pali-in-Mon-script materials have been 
catalogued, none of the manuscripts at Ko Kret (described below) have been. 
I won't digress recap the historical background, but the Mon (a.k.a. 
Dvaravati, a.k.a. Rumunnyadesa) tradition is of special importance to both 
the Thai and Sinhalese Pali literature as we have it today (both the Sri 
Lankan Rumunnya-Nikaya and the Thai Thammayut Nikaya were attempts to revive 
the Vinaya by (re-)importing the upper ordination from the Mon). The Mon 
tradition received royal patronage in Thailand from Rama IV (but to a 
diminished extent from Rama V), and continues to be suppressed and/or 
erradicated in Burma. Mon emigration to southern Thailand in the modern 
period has left a few isolated, unassimilated communities unto this day, but 
the more ancient and continuous pattern of settlement was the connection 
north-east from the Rumunnyadesa up toward Lopburi and Lanna. 

E.M.
-------------------------------
I made a trip to Nonthaburi today --of more particular interest, Ko Kret 
(island), being the one major concentration of Mon-speaking people in the 
greater Bangkok area. I thought I would write up a bit of a description of 
the Mon-Pali materials I encountered there, as Ko Kret is difficult to reach 
(even if you already live in Bangkok), and most likely those of you who have 
been there have not seen it recently. 

The short news is that there are big piles of uncatalogued and never/rarely 
read Mon-Pali manuscripts sitting up at the Ko-Kret museum (the museum is 
situated within the major temple on Ko-Kret island [the temple is called 
"Wat Paramai", although the full name is somewhat longer]). It is a 
"museum" in the most primitive and meaningful sense of the term: an 
accumulation of "public property" in a place open to the public. I suspect 
the manuscripts were simply handed over by monasteries and private owners 
who could no longer read them, and therefore had no use for them. Some are 
Mon, some are Pali in the Mon script; the total number, I would say is just 
under 200 --assuming that they have no storage aside from what is visible. 
Some of the manuscripts were on shelves, others apparently cased within 
decorative wood boxes, etc.; at all times they have a few examples on 
open-air display --i.e., where you can touch and read them. The items on 
display were in Mon rather than Mon-Pali when I was there (today); the 
percentage of the manuscripts in Mon vs. Mon-Pali would be impossible to 
guess from what you can see of them (namely, the edge of the bundle: some 
wrapped in cloth, others cased in wood (as mentioned) or bare). [Note: an 
independent source claims that they have a 180 MS suttapitaka, so this may 
raise the total number above what I observed, or else it radically reduces 
the number in the Mon language vs. Mon-script Pali] 

They also had a seemingly-complete set of the 1888 Mon-Pali printed editions 
(initiated by Mongkut, but printed over the decades following 1888) --again, 
looking like nobody had read them in a very long time, if ever, and kept in 
nailed-shut bookcases. As I could see some of the titles, I made the 
following "inventory" of the books on display: 

- A set of the Vinaya bound in yellow leather, with gold detailing, looking 
like it truly could have been printed circa 1888; titles on the spine in 
Mon-Pali characters, total of 14 volumes (that I could see). 

- A set of similar, and seemingly contemporaneous volumes, with identical 
gold detailing and Mon-Pali typeface on the spine, but with blue leather 
binding, and a slightly more confusing series of titles: a total of 12 
visible volumes. I surmise that this is a (lengthy) collection of 
recitation and ritual information --but this is based solely on the fact 
that "-kriya" and "-kara" kept coming up in the titles, and because it is 
too brief a set to be a suttapitaka, or an abhidhammapitaka (assuming it is 
a complete set at all). All of the titles in the Blue-bound series began 
with "Buddhadhammasanggha", and the volume I took time to peer at continued 
its title "upaasakaa mahaasati...", the rest being illegible. My guess 
would be that this is a book of rituals or recitations relating to 
laypeople, or perhaps a guide to conduct for laypeople, but, again, the 
blue-bound series does not seem to reflect any traditional order or 
organization of the suttas I know of; thus, I surmise, it may be made up of 
many 'manuals' composed on such themes (even if they are composed *of* 
quotations from the pali suttas ... perhaps, if there is original text 
inside, but is it in Mon rather than Pali?). I would be delighted to be 
proven wrong --but such proof would rely on being able to open the book 
[and, first, being able to open the bookshelf!]. If this edition is, e.g., 
an independent commentarial tradition from the Mons, I've never heard of 
such a thing (and would need to know more). [Note: I have since investigated 
and found that the Mons had a strong, independent tradition of 
interpretation and examinations on the Vinaya, including commentarial 
material. I still do not know to what extent they had their own "tika" on 
the suttas.] 

- There was a tantalizing miscellany of Mon-Pali leatherbounds, seeming to 
be individual editions, rather than part of any other set: a large, robust 
RED leatherbound, claiming to be one of the Nikayas (squint as I could at 
the Mon title, I couldn't figure out which one), and looking quite ancient 
(again, probably from years following 1888??). Two completely unmarked 
brown leatherbounds, of equal age and girth --possibly two other Nikayas? 
Or two other parts of the same Nikaya? [Or, of course, they could simply be 
naming the "Nikaya" that published the book --i.e., the word used in the 
sense of the order/fraternity] 

- There is also a large set of the suttapitaka (or perhaps the entire 
tripitaka --I didn't count the volumes) which I take to be the 1893 edition, 
i.e., compiled partly from Mon sources, but printed in Thai characters, 
under Royal patronage. At any rate, the writing on the spine is in Thai, 
but I would be delighted to be proved wrong, and to discover that the text 
inside is in Mon-Pali rather than Thai. I doubt it. This could be an even 
later edition --it appeared to be significantly younger than the other texts 
mentioned, but this may be because it has never been read. 

*None* of the above editions are identical with the 1904 Mon-Pali edition I 
reported on (at length) in my last e-mail, and which I found at the National 
library. The latter I have a few Xeroxed pages from ... which I could send 
to anyone who wanted them for their typographical oddities. [The particular 
book I xeroxed a few pages from is a Mon-script Vinaya Mahavaggo; the 
typeface is extremely legible, effective, and beautiful, but does not retain 
the Mon "hook" I have seen elsewhere] 

Printed materials aside: I could probably make an inventory of those 200 
Palm-Leaf manuscripts for Peter Skilling's foundation, and make a copy for 
the museum, with or without some small grant from the Siam Society or 
equivalent. Figuring out the titles of those texts would only be as 
difficult as taking them off the shelf (i.e., one at a time) --and if there 
is an "undiscovered" Pali or Mon text there, it would be invaluable. 
There's a great deal of "easy" philological work like that lying around here 
... and if it isn't done, nobody will even notice if a bunch of those 
manuscripts are stolen (perhaps a few at a time) and turn up for sale in 
antique shops. They are susceptible to theft in their current location and 
condition, but are protected (for the time being) by the presence of more 
valuable objects being nearby, and even more easily stolen. 

One manuscript that *would* be a noticed absence is an impressive lacquered 
"Square Pali" manuscript (i.e., Mon Square Pali!), made by applying black 
lacquer to "pages" shaved from ivory --more particularly from the tusks of 
royal elephants that had died of old age (i.e., not hunted). The white text 
gleamed out against the black painted onto it. It seemed to be impervious 
to the passage of time (to use an accurate but unflattering metaphor, it 
gleamed like a new-minted credit card) --with the exception of the 
red-pigment-and-gold cover page, which looked ancient and faded. The text 
is magnificently stylized --truly at the far edge of comprehensibility. To 
read it, one would have to squint at or copy out each character; but this is 
a thoroughly aesthetic, rather than functional, "typeface" --and I say 
"typeface" as it was made in as regular and square a fashion as if it were 
cut type. 

E.M. 


-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
The craving of the heedless man grows like a Maluva (all entangling) 
creeper. He runs hither and thither (from one life to another) like a monkey 
in the forest looking for fruit.
Random Dhammapada Verse 334

 
938
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:56am
Subject: Re: Mmd- (ka) part 1 (aniiya/iiya)
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the comments, and for the references to other relevant passages.

>
>This rule is too general, like for impersonal and passive verbs.

This makes sense. The rule I quoted was only about how to formally 
derive an fpp, rather than giving information about what the 
resulting forms mean or how they can be used.

I have a tendency to blur the distinction -- one of my weak points 
which I'm trying to get over.

> The
>rule needed here instead is like the ones for the special uses of the
>tenses. For the kicca suffixes (tabba, aniiya, ya, and other forms) we
>need to turn to the rules about the various uses found at Sd 1244-5 on
>p.862. These uses are: pesa (direction), atisagga (permission),
>pattakaala (proper time), avassaka (necessity), and adhami.na
>(indebtedness?). Note that I'm just repeating Vasu's renderings of the
>equivalent terms in Panini (near the end of Bk 3, Ch 3). The problem
>here is that there isn't any for 'araha' (worthy, deserving) even
>though the following rule 1246 for the infinitive does include it.

This might not be so odd after all. The list you provide 
(pesa...adhami.na) are more along the lines of pragmatic situations 
where fpp's might be used. Whereas the rule about "in the meaning 
'araha'" seems more properly semantic. (there are similar lists of 
pragmatic uses of verb forms like the optative and imperative at Sd 
880-882). The former sorts of lists really seem to go beyond the 
linguistic 'meanings' of the forms and instead get into the types of 
real-life contexts where the forms are appropriate.

>The Sadd exclusion of the meaning of capability is also problematic 
>because I think that one is needed too for those -able words like 
>peyya (drinkable). I have no idea why Kaccaayana or Aggava.msa would 
>leave out or overlook such rules.

Interesting question. I'm including it in my growing list of such questions.

One thing I'm interested in are distinctions like between da.t.thabba 
and dassaniiya. As you know, the former usually means (esp in the 
Sadd itself) 'to be viewed/regarded as' while the latter means 
'beautiful', as in deserving to be looked at. Or vattabba (to be 
said) and vacaniiya (to be spoken to). Perhaps Aggava.msa's 
explanation of dassaniiya as an abstract noun in -ana plus a suffix 
-iiya provides a clue about the historical origin of the -aniiya fpp 
suffix? and maybe it really could help us understand the origin of 
some of the differences of meaning associated with the different ways 
of forming what have all been grouped together as fpp's? As you said, 
we probably need to collect many more examples before being able to 
say (if ever).


best regards,

/Rett

 
939
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:51pm
Subject: Gheppaami (etc.) & Rasmus Rask
Hi Rett, 

(1) Thanks for looking up gheppaami (etc.) in Pischel --I do in fact own a 
copy of Pischel (and I've been hauling it around Asia), but it is currently 
in a crate at the Tipco building. Could I get your full name to give you a 
mention/credit in the footnote? BTW: I can confirm (through electronic 
searching) that gheppa- does not occur anywhere in the tripitaka --but all 
the major Pali grammars (incl. Moggallana) include it. 

(2) Yes, as it's only 16 pages, I would very much like to impose on the 
kindness of this particular stranger. There's next to nothing "out there" 
for people wanting to learn to read & write pali in Sinhalese characters, so 
it would probably have some practical value as well as sheer curiosity. I 
remember using the memorably titled "Learn Yourself Sinhalese [sic.]", and 
struggling to figure out the relationship to Romanized text. In any case, I 
can read both English and German, so Danish should be "clear as mud". 

Thank you for your advice & assistance, 

Eisel Mazard 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
The ignorant, foolish folk indulge in heedlessness; the wise man guards 
heedfulness as the greatest treasure.
Random Dhammapada Verse 26

 
940
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:44am
Subject: Rask now available in pdf
Hi Navako and group,

R. Rask's _Singalesisk Skriftlaere_, Kolombo 1921 is scanned and 
ready, thanks to a friend. It's in Danish, 16 pages. The .pdf file is 
just under 14 megabytes. Contact me off-list if you'd like a copy, or 
if someone would like to host it for download.

best regards,

/Everett Thiele

 
941
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:10am
Subject: Pali in Sinhalese script
>There's next to nothing "out there"
>for people wanting to learn to read & write pali in Sinhalese characters, so
>it would probably have some practical value as well as sheer curiosity. I
>remember using the memorably titled "Learn Yourself Sinhalese [sic.]", and
>struggling to figure out the relationship to Romanized text.


Hi,

I've also been recently trying to learn to transcribe Pali texts from 
the Sinhalese characters. It's not the easiest alphabet, so I've 
decided to switch to Burmese for the time being and come back to 
Sinhalese later. In case you haven't seen them, here are some recent 
reprints that might be of interest:

-Geiger, W., _A Grammar of the Sinhalese Language_
Asian Educational Services, New Delhi 1995
(first edition Colombo, 1938)

Charts of the complete alphabet, for Sinhalese, Sanskrit and Pali, 
including how to represent vowels, conjunct consonants etc.


-Gunasekera, A.M., _A Comprehensive Grammar of the Sinhalese Language_
Asian Educational Services, New Delhi 1999
(first edition Colombo, 1891)

Includes a much lengthier treatment of orthography than Geiger.


-de Silva, S., _Hand Book of Sinhalese Grammar, with exercises_
Asian Educational Services, New Delhi 1999
(first edition Colombo, 1922)

Not geared to Pali, and with a very brief treatment of the writing system.

best regards,

/Rett

 
942
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Nov 25, 2004 0:46pm
Subject: Re: Mmd- (ka) part 1 (aniiya/iiya)
Hi Rett,

> This might not be so odd after all. The list you provide
> (pesa...adhami.na) are more along the lines of pragmatic situations
> where fpp's might be used. Whereas the rule about "in the meaning
> 'araha'" seems more properly semantic.

I understood the gloss on Sd 1245 to take 'pesa' etc. to be referring
to meanings: "pesane atisagge pattakaale ca icc etesu *atthesu*
kiccapaccayaa honti." (p.862). However, I'm not sure if 'meanings'
here is meant as 'attha' itself has many meanings including 'payojana'
(purpose, use, application) which could apply too. There is an
interesting section on the term 'artha' in Kahrs' Indian Semantic
Analysis, pp.39-47 which I have started to go through.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
943
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:26am
Subject: atthesu
Howdy Jim,

>I understood the gloss on Sd 1245 to take 'pesa' etc. to be referring
>to meanings: "pesane atisagge pattakaale ca icc etesu *atthesu*
>kiccapaccayaa honti." (p.862). However, I'm not sure if 'meanings'
>here is meant as 'attha' itself has many meanings including 'payojana'
>(purpose, use, application) which could apply too.

My guess for now is that he's not using 'attha' in any special way, 
since 'etesu atthesu' is such a common formula for explicating a 
string of locatives of sense (like pesane atisagge...). And that 
string of locatives is explicating the compound in the sutta proper. 
Since the technique is such conventional commentarial usage, I 
wouldn't expect 'attha' to be used unconventionally here.

Instead I'd take his use of 'attha' in general to simply be wide 
enough to include both meaning and purpose. I haven't seen him 
explicitly state this, but I'm inferring it because many nuances of 
meaning are defined according to pragmatic considerations. For 
example differences between 'giving directions', 'ordering', 'asking 
nicely', etc, all of which on the surface level appear in the form of 
a command in the imperative. (Sd 880, for example).

So, for example, if you address someone using the imperative, while 
prostrating yourself before that person, then it's not an order but a 
'formal request' and is the height of politeness:

ajjhesana.m ajjhi.t.tha.m namakkaarapubbako niyogo, tasmi.m 
ajjhi.t.the: desetu bhagavaa dhamma.m., rajja.m kaaretha no ubho icc 
aadi. (from Sd 880)

tr. "Formal entreaty (defined tautalogically as ajjhesana.m = 
ajjhi.t.tha.m) is an enjoinment (niyogo) accompanied by prostration 
(namakkaara-pubbako). In this sense (of) formal entreaty: May the 
Fortunate One teach Dhamma. May you both rule us, etc."

Since this particular nuance of attha is defined in terms of social 
conventions, I can't help but consider it more pragmatically based.

Still, some important issues of the use of the imperative are simply 
left out (at least here). There is greater politeness in the 
imperative if it's put in the third person, and if a 'royal plural' 
is used. Person and number lead to a lot of important nuances in 
imperative use that I haven't yet seen taken up by Aggava.msa.

> There is an
>interesting section on the term 'artha' in Kahrs' Indian Semantic
>Analysis, pp.39-47 which I have started to go through.

I'm glad you're looking into that. I had to send my library copy 
back, but I enjoyed that book a lot, as far as I got. I think I'll 
put in a new interlibrary loan request . I even found a copy of Yaska 
at a used bookstore, but haven't done much with it yet.


best regards,

/Rett

 
944
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:51pm
Subject: Re: atthesu
Hi Rett,

Thanks for your response. I haven't got too much to add or comment on
and I had some difficulty in following some of the things you wrote. I
have yet to study the tenses in any great detail (as with most of the
other grammatical topics). There should be an explanation of 'atthesu'
(semantic uses?) in some other grammatical treatise whether it be
Sanskrit or Pali. I don't expect to find an explanation in Aggava.msa
as he seems to assume the reader to be well-acquatinted with most of
the technical terms, but then I haven't looked and one never knows
what one will find. I think the future passive participle has the
closest affinity to the optative or potential tense (sattamii) and
I've seen the term 'potential passive participle' used by Vasu which I
think more accurately describes the fpps.

I saw at Khp-a 125 the following gloss: "puujaneyyaananti
puujaarahaana.m" which I think shows the araha sense of the 'eyya'
suffix. In the next paragraph of Mmd there is this '-puujaya-' form in
the compound 'puujaniiyapuujayattaa' that has me baffled. Do you
recognize it? A present participle active would work nicely in the
compound (= "from the fact of honouring that which is worthy of
honour"), but I think of p.p.a forms of 'puujeti' as puujenta,
puujayanta, or puujayamaana. I also thought of the Skt. puujya with an
inserted svarabhakti vowel but there is already the Pali form 'pujja'.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
945
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 3:56am
Subject: Re: atthesu
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the latest response. I thought I'd respond to this part 
first, since it's a separate question connected to Mmd.

> In the next paragraph of Mmd there is this '-puujaya-' form in
>the compound 'puujaniiyapuujayattaa' that has me baffled. Do you
>recognize it? A present participle active would work nicely in the
>compound (= "from the fact of honouring that which is worthy of
>honour"), but I think of p.p.a forms of 'puujeti' as puujenta,
>puujayanta, or puujayamaana. I also thought of the Skt. puujya with an
>inserted svarabhakti vowel but there is already the Pali form 'pujja'.


You mention that in context it would work well if it was a present 
participle (presumably with a -tva/-tta suffix forming an abstract 
noun, in the ablative)

I'm not certain how this works in Pali, but in Sanskrit the stems of 
passive participles use the weak form, without the nasal. So the 
example you give puujayanta, for example, would be puujayat- in the 
stem form. Perhaps this is the case here, either as a sanskritism in 
the Pali, or a viable Pali form?

Hence: puujayat + tta (with ellision of the superflous t)? This is 
just a guess, of course.

Will this passage be coming in the next installment of Mmd?

best regards,

/Rett

 
946
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:04am
Subject: Re: atthesu
Hi Jim,

Thanks for your latest. some paki.n.na responses:

> I think the future passive participle has the
>closest affinity to the optative or potential tense (sattamii)

I think this is right, and that your conclusion is supported in 
Saddaniiti by the overlap in their functions. I'm in the process of 
trying to sort this material out for myself, so if my explanations 
aren't always clear, it could be for that reason.

As a fun aside, in connection with optatives: last night, watching a 
James Bond movie on TV, I was struck by something Roger Moore said: 
"this should be the control room". He was diving in a wrecked ship 
and had a floor plan of the ship with him for reference. From the 
plan he concluded that a certain room was the control room and said 
so. By using 'should be' (roughly a sort of English optative) he is 
marking the evidentiality-status of the statement. In this case he 
marks it as a surmise, something like:

"This is the control room, not that I know for sure, but I believe so 
with a relatively high degree of certainty, based on the map (though 
I might have read the map wrong)"

Since by the time he'd have managed to say all that he would have 
been running out of oxygen-helium mixture, (not to mention that the 
bad guy with the robotic claw would have arrived), Bond is lucky 
English has the word 'should'.

Something like this is expressed in Pali with the future tenses: 
eta.m ki.m bhavissati? What might this be?. And maybe even "tva.m 
Livinstaanavejjo bhavissasi" Dr. Livingstone, I presume. (though this 
type of presumption might more commonly be expressed with mae)

I'm not sure, but I think I remember seeing this sort of expression 
with optatives as well, which is why I had the odd experience of pali 
grammar irrupting into a fluff movie.

>
>I saw at Khp-a 125 the following gloss: "puujaneyyaananti
>puujaarahaana.m" which I think shows the araha sense of the 'eyya'
>suffix.

I agree that this example shows the araha sense, but it doesn't seem 
to go either way on the question of whether the derivation is puujana 
+ eyya or puuja + aneyya. Thanks for including this reference to 
what's still seems like an open questions. (one of many, many open 
questions these texts give rise to)


>There should be an explanation of 'atthesu'
>(semantic uses?) in some other grammatical treatise whether it be
>Sanskrit or Pali. I don't expect to find an explanation in Aggava.msa
>as he seems to assume the reader to be well-acquatinted with most of
>the technical terms, but then I haven't looked and one never knows
>what one will find.

I'll keep an eye peeled also, and mention it if I come across such a 
discussion.


take care,

/Rett

 
947
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:21am
Subject: Re: atthesu (correction)
>
>passive participles use the weak form,


read 'present participles'

 
948
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Nov 28, 2004 9:49am
Subject: Re: atthesu
Hi Rett,

> > In the next paragraph of Mmd there is this '-puujaya-' form in
> >the compound 'puujaniiyapuujayattaa' that has me baffled. Do you
> >recognize it? A present participle active would work nicely in the
> >compound (= "from the fact of honouring that which is worthy of
> >honour"), but I think of p.p.a forms of 'puujeti' as puujenta,
> >puujayanta, or puujayamaana. I also thought of the Skt. puujya with
an
> >inserted svarabhakti vowel but there is already the Pali form
'pujja'.

My "p.p.a" should be ppr. (PED). Cone abbreviates: part.pr.

> You mention that in context it would work well if it was a present
> participle (presumably with a -tva/-tta suffix forming an abstract
> noun, in the ablative)

I'm reading the -tta suffix exactly as you are.

> I'm not certain how this works in Pali, but in Sanskrit the stems of
> passive participles use the weak form, without the nasal. So the
> example you give puujayanta, for example, would be puujayat- in the
> stem form. Perhaps this is the case here, either as a sanskritism in
> the Pali, or a viable Pali form?

I suspect there is a fair amount of Sanskritisms in Mmd, so your
suggestion sounds plausible to me. But is it a valid Pali form? We
could keep it an open question until we can find some validation for
it.

> Hence: puujayat + tta (with ellision of the superflous t)? This is
> just a guess, of course.

A 'puujaniiyapuujayataaya' (with a fem. 'taa' suffix) comes
immediately after in the next clause. Would 'puujayat + taa' in Skt.
be 'puujayataa'?

> Will this passage be coming in the next installment of Mmd?

Yes, indeed! I haven't decided which is better--whether to just go
ahead and post the text first without any translation or include a
translation the first time around. I've been doing the latter up to
now but I'd be interested in trying the first alternative to see if
that might not be a better way. At least it would afford us an
opportunity to work together on figuring out what the heck the author
is trying to convey. As an experiment I'll post the forthcoming
paragraph untranslated with a comment or two on problems I see in the
text. Howver, no one should feel obligated to work on it. Only if they
wish and have the time for it. I think Mmd is going to be a difficult
text to work through. I apologize for the very slow pace. We're all
going to be over 700 years old by the time we get to the end of
Kaccaayana. :-)

For the past week, I've been working on another project of mine that
pertains to promoting interest in the study of Pali in Canada. I have
recently been in touch with the founder of Nalanda College in Toronto
and he has offered to work with me on my idea of forming a national
association of Canadians interested in Pali. I have set up a Pali
discussion forum for Canadians, it's just me so far. Its homepage is
at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy_ca/

Some of my work is going to be contacting Buddhist groups and
individuals in Canada to let them know about my idea and the mailing
list as I hardly think anyone would be looking for or expecting to
find anything like this on the internet. This is just a first step. If
all goes well, centres of Pali learning will be springing up all over
the country in no time. :-)

Best wishes,
Jim

 
949
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:42am
Subject: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
Re:
> My "p.p.a" should be ppr. (PED). Cone abbreviates: part.pr.

I've noticed a few recent interchanges in which the abbreviations for 
grammatical terms cause confusion. 

Actually, the full names for grammatical terms cause their share of 
confusion as well. 

My question is: couldn't we all (provisionally) standardize usage by (1) 
relying on the actual Pali grammatical terms, and (2) abbreviating the Pali 
term, rather than the English? 

This would probably be beneficial for those whose first language isn't 
English. 

It will be at once complained that the Pali terms themselves are 
problematic, inconsistent between authors, etc. (Malalasekhera has a table 
comparing the terminology of the commentaries to that of Kaccayana); but, 
howeverso provisionally or arbitrarily, we should surely try to adopt one 
set of terms or another (or an agreed-upon mix from a few sources) instead 
of English grammatical terms --which are derived from Greek and Latin 
grammars in the first place. 

I'm still wondering what the Pali term for "Continuative Participle" is; and 
I don't know if I'd recognise it in Kaccayana if I saw it. There may be no 
such term; likewise, I have never found a term other than an ordinal number 
for the imperative. 

The terms set down by Bodhi (based on Nyanamoli's manuscript) in his 
_Glossary of Pali Technical Terms_ is not without errors or omissions, but 
it is a good starting point --and I had to lean upon that little book a 
great deal while trying to sort out the terms for my present work on 
Kaccayana. 

Would it be too technical or exasperating to begin discussing a full list of 
such terms and proposals for Pali-based abbreviations? 

Of course, ideally, these abbreviated forms should also be in the Ashokan 
script, rather than Roman text, so that they are truly "international". But 
I do not think this Ashokan Brahmi font would carry so well over the Yahoo 
e-mail server. While it is true that "almost no-one" reads Pali in Ashokan, 
one could quickly learn to recognise a grammatical abbreviation in that 
script (were a dictionary printed this way) just as one learns to recognise 
symbols that have no language at all. 

I dare say I would think more highly of the PTS had they resolved to print 
in Ashokan text only, rather than Roman, on the basis of the same arguments 
they put forth against using either Burmese or Sinhala. 

E.M. 


-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Those who are afraid when there should be no fear, and are not afraid when 
there should be fear, such men, due to their wrong views go to woeful 
states.
Random Dhammapada Verse 317

 
950
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:38pm
Subject: Re: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
Eisel,

Thanks for your suggested proposals but I have a feeling that most of
us here will find most of them just not suitable for our purposes
here. Sorry, if you're disappointed.

> Re:
> > My "p.p.a" should be ppr. (PED). Cone abbreviates: part.pr.
>
> I've noticed a few recent interchanges in which the abbreviations
> for grammatical terms cause confusion.
>
> Actually, the full names for grammatical terms cause their share of
> confusion as well.
>
> My question is: couldn't we all (provisionally) standardize usage by
> (1) relying on the actual Pali grammatical terms, and (2)
abbreviating
> the Pali term, rather than the English?

1) We will often be coming across Pali grammatical terms during the
course of our study and having discussions about them. I think it is
wiser to still keep referring to and using their English counterparts.
2) It would be difficult to find an agreed-upon standard for
abbreviations of Pali grammatical terms and besides is there really a
need for one at this present time? We could just write the words out
in full and if it's a long one and used a lot in a message one could
just make up a temporary abbr. for the occasion.

> I'm still wondering what the Pali term for "Continuative Participle"
> is; and I don't know if I'd recognise it in Kaccayana if I saw it.
> There may be no such term; likewise, I have never found a term other
> than an ordinal number for the imperative.

I suppose the "continuative participle" is another way of saying the
"present participle"? I haven't seen any Pali term for this either. I
think the ordinal terms for the imperative and the optative are very
old Indian terms predating Panini.

> The terms set down by Bodhi (based on Nyanamoli's manuscript) in his
> _Glossary of Pali Technical Terms_ is not without errors or
> omissions, but it is a good starting point --and I had to lean upon
> that little book a great deal while trying to sort out the terms for
> my present work on Kaccayana.

I believe that glossary is available online at tipitaka.net.

> Would it be too technical or exasperating to begin discussing a full
> list of such terms and proposals for Pali-based abbreviations?

Yes, I think so--for now anyway. I'm interested in a full list of
these grammatical terms and it would be good to have a dictionary of
such terms with good explanations. But this would be quite a big
project for anyone to take up. Not too long ago Rett and I were
discussing the term 'li"nga' and a few other related ones. In my ad
hoc research, I found the term got even more difficult to understand
and there seemed like there was no end to its study.

I don't think it would be very practical to have the abbreviations in
the Ashokan or Brahmi script. I don't know of any Pali book printed in
that script. Do you? I doubt PTS would be interested in printing any
of their books in anything other than the Roman script. For most
people who know only one script, learning and getting used to a new
one can take a long time.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
951
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 0:31am
Subject: Re: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
> Thanks for your suggested proposals but I have a feeling that most of
> us here will find most of them just not suitable for our purposes
> here. Sorry, if you're disappointed.

No, I'm not disappointed; however, my concern is that many textbooks (i.e., 
modern grammars) rely on English (and pseudo-Latin) grammatical concepts, 
and apply them in an imprecise and inconsistent way to Pali grammar. I 
think everyone on this list is probably so advanced in their knowledge of 
Pali grammar that they aren't thrown by these inconsistencies, but both in 
comparing modern sources, and within a given modern textbook, there are 
inconsistencies, and these LARGELY derive from the undertainty with which 
the English grammatical terms have been applied to the Pali. 

I would also say, e.g., there is no point memorizing paradigms in the wrong 
order, and thus the inversion of "First Person" and "Third person", the 
re-ordering of the (ordinal-named) noun declensions, etc., are all very 
problematic for a student working with contemporary sources. And it is (at 
present) a *big* leap to try to learn from classical sources. 

> I suppose the "continuative participle" is another way of saying the
> "present participle"? I haven't seen any Pali term for this either.

No, it is supposedly a different participle; I can't quite figure it out, 
but I haven't spent much time on it yet. 

> I
> think the ordinal terms for the imperative and the optative are very
> old Indian terms predating Panini.

Yes, but they are isolated in the list of non-ordinal terms presented by 
Kaccayana, and their numbers do not actually correspond ("ordinally") to 
their position in that list. I do not know any Pali grammatical source in 
which those two ordinal names "make sense". Your opinion on their antiquity 
is very interesting to me --but it only elaborates the problem. 

> I doubt PTS would be interested in printing any
> of their books in anything other than the Roman script.

Yes, I was making a rather arch joke on precisely that point; the PTS is 
devoutly Roman Buddhist. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
By oneself alone is evil done; it is self-born, it is self-caused. Evil 
grinds the unwise as a diamond grinds a hard gem.
Random Dhammapada Verse 161

 
952
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:58am
Subject: Re: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
Hi Jim, Eisel and everyone,

Here are contributions to various points that have come up the last 
day or so. As always, I'm very grateful if anyone points out errors 
or misconceptions in my comments, either here or off list.

>Eisel: my concern is that many textbooks (i.e., modern grammars) 
>rely on English (and pseudo-Latin) grammatical concepts, and apply 
>them in an imprecise and inconsistent way to Pali grammar.

I agree about this being a risk. In particular I have personally run 
into confusion by confusing form and function of the tenses/moods 
(vibhatti).

The pacamiivibhatti (5mi, imperative) is a set of inflexional 
endings. But if we translate as 'imperative' it is easy to confuse 
the set of endings with the function of 'ordering' 'commanding'. 
'Ordering' is one common use of the imperative-endings but not the 
only one. Similarly, expressing present-time is one common function 
of the vattamaanaa (present endings), but not the only one, and so 
on. These are fundamentals, but I think they're worth stating, as an 
example of the risk of confusion we students face when working with 
both western and traditional grammatical concepts.

However, I don't think this is a reason to abandon the term 
'imperative' in translation. One way or another, we just need to make 
the distinction between form and function clear. Ways to do this have 
already been demonstrated by various translators of Indian 
grammatical literature, but when we're starting out we might not 
initially notice the care with which they've worked.

>Eisel: I would also say, e.g., there is no point memorizing 
>paradigms in the wrong order, and thus the inversion of "First 
>Person" and "Third person", the
>re-ordering of the (ordinal-named) noun declensions, etc., are all very
>problematic for a student working with contemporary sources.

In my ongoing translation of the Aakhyaatakappa of the Saddaniiti, I 
have followed Senart's lead in Kacc and retained the western terms 
3rd, 2nd and 1st person, but with a note to the effect that the 
numbering is reversed. After all, translation is translation; it's 
supposed to meet the needs of the target audience.

Retaining the Indian sequence is necessary (apart from being valuable 
in its own right) because other rules refer to the grammatical 
persons by their positions in the list. (such as in the rule of the 
_later_ (paro) person taking priority when combing several 
grammatical persons into a single expression, i.e. "he eats and you 
eat and I eat" > "we eat", in the uttamapurisa, which is the last 
grammatical person in the list, in the Indian sequence) Sd 868, Kacc 
411.

>Jim: > I suppose the "continuative participle" is another way of saying the
>> "present participle"? I haven't seen any Pali term for this either.
>
>Eisel: No, it is supposedly a different participle; I can't quite 
>figure it out, but I haven't spent much time on it yet.

My gut feeling here is that 'continuative' sounds like a linguistic 
function rather than the designation of a particular form (at least 
for Pali). Continuatives might possibly be expressed with present 
participles.

By the way, Warder has 'missakiriyaa' in parentheses after 'present 
participle' on page 46 of his _Introduction to Pali_. I don't know 
where he found that term, as I haven't seen it in Sadd (yet). Anyone?


>Jim: > I think the ordinal terms for the imperative and the optative are very
> > old Indian terms predating Panini.
>
>Eisel: Yes, but they are isolated in the list of non-ordinal terms 
>presented by Kaccayana, and their numbers do not actually correspond 
>("ordinally") to
>their position in that list. I do not know any Pali grammatical source in
>which those two ordinal names "make sense". Your opinion on their antiquity
>is very interesting to me --but it only elaborates the problem.

From Chatterji, Ksitish Chandra, _Technical Terms and Technique of 
Sanskrit Grammar_, Calcutta, 1964: "The original name for lo.t 
(Imperative) was lost in the Kaatantra school which uses pacamii for 
it, because lo.t occupies the fifth place in the Paaninian scheme of 
moods and tenses if the Subjunctive, which is confined to Vedic, is 
excluded." page 12.

"In the case of li.n (Potential) as in that of lo.t, the earlier name 
was lost and li.n came to be called saptamii in the Kaatantra system, 
as with the exlusion of the Vedic Subjecnctive, it occupied the 
seventh place in the system of Paa.nini." page 13

To me the above makes good sense of the terms (which one might 
abbreviate 5mi and 7mi), though I don't think it's certain that the 
Paninian terms need to predate the Kaatantra terms, as Chatterji 
assumes.

best regards,

/Rett

 
953
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:47am
Subject: Re: atthesu
Greetings,

>
>> Hence: puujayat + tta (with ellision of the superflous t)? This is
>> just a guess, of course.
>
>A 'puujaniiyapuujayataaya' (with a fem. 'taa' suffix) comes
>immediately after in the next clause. Would 'puujayat + taa' in Skt.
>be 'puujayataa'?

No it wouldn't, afaik. This is interesting. It looks as the the 
author is putting abstract noun suffixes directly onto a verb stem: 
puujaya- + -tta, -taa.

I think I'll need to wait until you publish the whole passage to 
venture a guess.

>
>For the past week, I've been working on another project of mine that
>pertains to promoting interest in the study of Pali in Canada. I have
>recently been in touch with the founder of Nalanda College in Toronto
>and he has offered to work with me on my idea of forming a national
>association of Canadians interested in Pali. ... If
>all goes well, centres of Pali learning will be springing up all over
>the country in no time. :-)

Sounds great. I believe many people need to feel that their studies 
are leading somewhere beyond just reading privately. If study groups 
spring up it could motivate new beginners to start studying Pali, and 
those who have started to continue. I hope this works out.

best regards,

/Rett

 
954
From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu <dhammanando@csloxinfo.com> 
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:44am
Subject: Pa~ncamii and sattamii according to the Saddaniiti
Hi Rett,

Jim:
>>> I think the ordinal terms for the imperative and the
>>> optative are very old Indian terms predating Panini.

Eisel:
>> Yes, but they are isolated in the list of non-ordinal terms
>> presented by Kaccayana, and their numbers do not actually
>> correspond ("ordinally") to their position in that list. I
>> do not know any Pali grammatical source in which those two
>> ordinal names "make sense". Your opinion on their antiquity
>> is very interesting to me --but it only elaborates the
>> problem.

Rett:
> From Chatterji, Ksitish Chandra, _Technical Terms and
> Technique of Sanskrit Grammar_, Calcutta, 1964: "The
> original name for lo.t (Imperative) was lost in the
> Kaatantra school which uses pacamii for it, because lo.t
> occupies the fifth place in the Paaninian scheme of moods
> and tenses if the Subjunctive, which is confined to Vedic,
> is excluded." page 12.
>
> "In the case of li.n (Potential) as in that of lo.t, the
> earlier name was lost and li.n came to be called saptamii in
> the Kaatantra system, as with the exlusion of the Vedic
> Subjecnctive, it occupied the seventh place in the system of
> Paa.nini." page 13
>
> To me the above makes good sense of the terms (which one
> might abbreviate 5mi and 7mi), though I don't think it's
> certain that the Paninian terms need to predate the
> Kaatantra terms, as Chatterji assumes.

An alternative explanation:

According to Aggava.msa, there was an ancient scheme of
stating tenses in the following order: parokkhaa,
hiyyattanii, ajjattanii, bhavissanti, vattamaana. Within this
scheme the imperative belongs in the fifth class,
vattamaana, and so is called pa~ncamii.

If the vattamaana and pa~ncamii are counted as two, this
would make 6 vibhattiyo, with the optative making the
seventh, hence the name 'sattamii'.

Here's the relevant passage:

'Pa~ncamii' ti kena.t.thena pa~ncamii? Pa~ncama.m
vattamaana.t.thaana.m gamana.t.thena, pa~ncanna~nca
sa`nkhyaana.m puura.na.t.thena. Tathaa hi niyogaa
atiitaanaagatapaccuppannakaalikaana.m
parokkhaahiyyattanajjataniibhavissantiivattamaanaasa`nkhaataana.m
pa~ncanna.m vibhattiinamantare pa~ncamiibhuutaaya
vattamaanaaya sayampi paccuppannakaalikabhaavena
samaana.t.thaanattaa pa~ncama.m vattamaana.t.thaana.m
gacchatiiti pa~ncamii. Yathaa nadantii gacchatiiti nadii.
Tathaa niyogaa atiitaanaagatakaalikaa
parokkhaahiyyattanajjataniibhavissantiisa`nkhaataa catasso
vibhattiyo upaadaaya sayampi vattamaanaavibhatti viya
pa~ncanna.m sa`nkhyaana.m puura.niiti pa~ncamii.

'Sattamii' ti kena.t.thena sattamii? Sattanna.m
sa`nkhyaana.m puura.na.t.thena. Tathaa hi
atiitaanaagatapaccuppannakaalikaa
parokkhaahiyyattanajjataniibhavissantiivattamaanaapa~ncamiisa`nkhaataa
cha vibhattiyo upaadaaya sayampi paccuppannakaalikaa hutvaa
sattanna.m sa`nkhyaana.m puura.niiti sattamii.

-- Sadd. Padamaala pp 102-3 (Bhuumibalo Bhikkhu Foundation
edition, 1978).

I'm afraid there is no paragraph numbering in the BBF
edition of the Padamaala, and I don't have the H. Smith
edition. However, the passage comes three paragraphs from
the end of the Paki.n.nakavinicchaya.

Best wishes,

Dhammanando

 
955
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
Eisel,

> No, I'm not disappointed; however, my concern is that many textbooks
> (i.e., modern grammars) rely on English (and pseudo-Latin)
grammatical
> concepts, and apply them in an imprecise and inconsistent way to
Pali
> grammar. I think everyone on this list is probably so advanced in
their

I think you're overestimating us.

> knowledge of Pali grammar that they aren't thrown by these
> inconsistencies, but both in comparing modern sources, and within a
> given modern textbook, there are inconsistencies, and these LARGELY
> derive from the undertainty with which the English grammatical terms
have
> been applied to the Pali.

I share your concern. I think it's important that we be made aware of
inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the English renderings of Pali
terms. When we take up a Pali term for study we can also take into
consideration the English term(s) in which it is typically rendered
and decide on whether or not it is acceptable or misleading. In taking
up a Pali term for study, I'm looking at two approaches: 1) of an
introductory nature--whenever it just comes up spontaneously in a
discussion or a text other than Kaccaayana. We would not spend too
much time on it by going into great detail and trying to solve
difficult problems; 2) a detailed study of each important term we meet
with in the course of our study of the actual text of Kaccaayana from
the beginning to the end. Btw, we are still working on the two
introductory verses of that work.

In light of recent decades of Western linguistic studies some of the
old English terms have been changing. For instance, in my copy of _A
Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_ by Quirk et al (1985),
I noticed that the term "present participle" has been replaced with
"-ing participle" (cp. tvaadiyantapadaani for absolutives). A good
knowledge of both Pali and English grammar with all their technical
terms would be rather helpful in translation work, I think. And
besides it's a good way of comparing Western and Indian concepts of
language.

> > I
> > think the ordinal terms for the imperative and the optative are
very
> > old Indian terms predating Panini.
>
> Yes, but they are isolated in the list of non-ordinal terms
presented by
> Kaccayana, and their numbers do not actually correspond
("ordinally") to
> their position in that list. I do not know any Pali grammatical
source in
> which those two ordinal names "make sense". Your opinion on their
antiquity
> is very interesting to me --but it only elaborates the problem.

I'm afraid my opinion was based on faulty memory. I thought the term
'pa~ncamii' (imperative) was in Panini's work. Both Rett and Ven.
Dhammanando have provided some valuable information which I am
grateful for.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
956
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:06am
Subject: Re: Pa~ncamii and sattamii according to the Saddaniiti
>I'm afraid there is no paragraph numbering in the BBF
>edition of the Padamaala, and I don't have the H. Smith
>edition. However, the passage comes three paragraphs from
>the end of the Paki.n.nakavinicchaya.

Thank you, Bhante, for posting that quotation from Sadd which I was 
unaware of. It was also interesting to see that it's part of a 
section explaining the origins of all the tense/mood endings, not 
just 5mi and 7mi. As you may know, Jim and I have been trying to 
outline the contents of the Saddaniiti, and especially the 
Padamaalaa. The large-scale divisions are not so problematic, but 
within the chapters there is very much material that isn't always 
easy to survey (at least not for me). Now we've got another piece of 
the mosaic.

In H. Smith's edition, this section starts on page 58, line 16, and 
continues to page 59, line 18. It concludes and titles itself:

aya.m vattamaanaadiina.m vacanatthavibhaavanaa.

This is the exposition of the meanings of the expressions (for) the 
present tense etc.

best regards

/Rett

 
957
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 4:51am
Subject: Re: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
rett writes:
> The pacamiivibhatti (5mi, imperative) is a set of inflexional 
> endings. But if we translate as 'imperative' it is easy to confuse 
> the set of endings with the function of 'ordering' 'commanding'. 
> 'Ordering' is one common use of the imperative-endings but not the 
> only one.

According to Narada Thera, the reflexive-imperative is Pali's equivalent to 
the benedictive (there's a jargon-heavy statement!). Thus, commanding 
oneself to do something is really equivalent to wishing one could do 
something ... so to speak. The example he uses is along the lines of 
wishing one could become a Buddha. This issue makes it into a footnote of 
the textbook I'm writing. 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Those who always earnestly practise "mindfulness of the body", who follow 
not what should not be done, and constantly do what should be done, of those 
mindful and reflective ones the corruptions come to an end.
Random Dhammapada Verse 293

 
958
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 5:34am
Subject: Re: Pali grammatical terms & abbreviations
>
>from Eisel:
>According to Narada Thera, the reflexive-imperative is Pali's equivalent to
>the benedictive (there's a jargon-heavy statement!). Thus, commanding
>oneself to do something is really equivalent to wishing one could do
>something ... so to speak. The example he uses is along the lines of
>wishing one could become a Buddha. This issue makes it into a footnote of
>the textbook I'm writing.

This appears to be the opinion of Aggava.msa also, though I'm not 
completely confident in my translation below. AFAIK the quotations 
are untraced, though the second quotation is reminiscent to Dhpa 
I,47,19 (PTS), which uses the optative (7mi) instead of the 
imperative (5mi). Thanks to H Smith's footnotes for this info.

From the vutti to sutta 880 of Saddaniiti:

patthanaa naama sundarassa vaa asundarassa vaa aayati.m 
upalabhitabbassa atthassa pihanaa, tissa.m patthanaaya.m: 
"bhaavaabhavaabhinibbattiya.m me sati paritassanaajiivita.m naama maa 
hotu, aya.m sumanamaalaa viya nibbatta.t.thaane piyaa va homii" ti 
vaa "ima.m jiivitaa voropetu.m samattho homii" ti vaa icc aadi.

Wishing for a lovely or a wicked purpose to be obtained in the future 
is 'aspiration' (patthanaa) by name. In this (sense of) aspiration: 
"In whatever form of existence I am reborn let there not be a life of 
fear; like this jasmine-garland may I be loved in my place of 
rebirth," or "may I be capable of depriving him of life," etc.

By way of comparison, Dhpa I, 47:

"ito daani cutaa yakkhinii hutvaa tava daarake khaaditu.m samatthaa 
hutvaa nibateyya.m" ti patthana.m .thapetvaa, kaala.m katvaa tasmi.m 
yeva gehe majjaarii hutvaa nibbatti.


best regards,

/Rett

 
959
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 11:45am
Subject: Mmd: (ka) part 2
Text:
// ettha ca tabbihatantaraa[ya]yathaanaamayathaapa.ti~n~naatattha-
abhinipphaadanasamatthataa / ratanattayappa.naamakara.nena hi
yathaapa.ti~n~naatatthaabhinipphaadanasamatthataa hoti tassa
puujaniiyapuujayattaa / puujaniiyapuujayataaya ca ma"ngalabhaavato /
ma"ngalena ca yathaapa.ti~n~naatatthappasijjhanato // vutta.m hi
bhagavato: puujaa ca puujaneyyaana.m / eta.m ma"ngalamuttamanti
(Khp 3, Sn 259) ca / etaadisaani katvaana / sabbatthamaparaajitaa //
sabbattha sotthi.m gacchantiiti (Khp 3, Sn 269) ca //
-- Mmd, p.2 (Zabu Press, 1929)

Notes:
1) On the first line I've inserted [ya] which I think has been left
out. The same thing was done in pada c of the 2nd introductory verse
(-niccha[ya]~n~nuu-). I wonder if the editor had a blind spot for the
y's. I tried to contact Teng Kee to have him check with his edition
but he hasn't responded so far and I haven't seen any postings of his
on this or the other Pali list for quite a long time.

2) The references (in parentheses) to the quotes were supplied by me.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
960
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Dec 1, 2004 6:52pm
Subject: Re: atthesu
Hi Rett,

Sorry for the delay. I'm a little behind with the emails. Thanks for
relating your thoughts about 'should' in the James Bond movie. Very
cool! I thought it would be interesting to find out where the James
Bond's 'should' belongs in a modern English grammar that I pulled out
only yesterday for the first time in a long time. I think I've found a
good match for your interpretation.

Rett:
<<As a fun aside, in connection with optatives: last night, watching a
James Bond movie on TV, I was struck by something Roger Moore said:
"this should be the control room". He was diving in a wrecked ship
and had a floor plan of the ship with him for reference. From the
plan he concluded that a certain room was the control room and said
so. By using 'should be' (roughly a sort of English optative) he is
marking the evidentiality-status of the statement. In this case he
marks it as a surmise, something like:

"This is the control room, not that I know for sure, but I believe so
with a relatively high degree of certainty, based on the map (though
I might have read the map wrong)">>

Jim:
I looked up 'should' in the section on _Meanings of the modal verbs_
in R. Quirk's grammar, 219ff as I remember seeing a handy chart for
the modal verbs. To me, the meanings of these modals are like direct
translations of some of the classical meanings of the Pali and Skt.
optatives-- Group 1: permission & possibility/ability, II: obligation
& necessity, III: volition & prediction. Group II is where 'should' is
found:

Group II:
committed obligation or necessity--must, have (got) to, need
(nonassertive)
noncommitted obligation or necessity--should, ought to

The authors think that 'noncommitted necessity' is best characterized
as 'tentative inference'. They give these 2 examples: The mountain
should/ought to be visible from here. These plants should/ought to
reach maturity after five years. 'Necessity' belongs to 'extrinsic
modality' (involves human judgement of what is or is not likely to
happen) while 'obligation' is of intrinsic modality (primarily
involves human control over events). The two categories are not taken
as absolutes in order to allow for gradiency of shades of meanings
between the two.

Rett:
<<Since by the time he'd have managed to say all that he would have
been running out of oxygen-helium mixture, (not to mention that the
bad guy with the robotic claw would have arrived), Bond is lucky
English has the word 'should'.

Something like this is expressed in Pali with the future tenses:
eta.m ki.m bhavissati? What might this be?. And maybe even "tva.m
Livinstaanavejjo bhavissasi" Dr. Livingstone, I presume. (though this
type of presumption might more commonly be expressed with mae)

I'm not sure, but I think I remember seeing this sort of expression
with optatives as well, which is why I had the odd experience of pali
grammar irrupting into a fluff movie. >>

Jim:
According to Quirk, 'may/might' belongs to Group I:

committed permission (intrinsic) or possibility, ability (extrinsic)
--can, could
noncommitted permission or possibility, ability--may, might

Group III has these modal verbs: will, would, shall

>I saw at Khp-a 125 the following gloss: "puujaneyyaananti
>puujaarahaana.m" which I think shows the araha sense of the 'eyya'
>suffix.

Rett:
<<I agree that this example shows the araha sense, but it doesn't seem
to go either way on the question of whether the derivation is puujana
+ eyya or puuja + aneyya. Thanks for including this reference to
what's still seems like an open questions. (one of many, many open
questions these texts give rise to)>>

Jim:
There does not seem to be an 'aneyya' kicca suffix in the Saddaniiti.
To underscore the araha meaning of the 'eyya' suffix the commentator
could have used 'puujanaarahaana.m' instead. But on the other hand it
could be that two things are being accomplished at once by giving both
a synonym 'puujaa' for 'puujanaa' as well as a meaning for 'eyya'.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
961
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Dec 3, 2004 2:45pm
Subject: Tipitakadharas of Myanmar
Dear members,

I recently came across this webpage on Tipi.takadharas of Myanmar
which I thought might be of interest to you:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tpdkdhra.htm

A Tipi.takadhara is a title given to one who has the whole Tipi.taka
memorized. According to this webpage it has only been given to 11
bhikkhus in Myanmar from 1948 to 2001. In addition, there are other
higher titles given to some of them, ie. Tipi.takakawida, Maha
Tipi.takakawida, and Dhammabha.n.daagaarika.

In 1982, I had the good fortune of meeting a young and brilliant
Burmese bhikkhu (travelling in North America with the Sayadaw U
Thilawunta) who had the whole Tipi.taka memorized except for the
Yamaka and Pa.t.thaana which he still had to do. I'm not sure if he
ever succeeded in getting the title of a Tipi.takadhara. His name is
Ven. Ashin Thitzana which I don't see among the 11 but then he could
be under a Pali name. He was supposed to have come back to Canada to
teach me in particular starting about 1988 but it never came to pass
as the conditions didn't seem right for it at the time and I called it
off. We did have some letter exchanges and on the letterhead of his
letters around 1986-7 is a list of his titles as follows:

"dvipi.takadhara, dvipi.takakovida, saasanadhaja siriipavara
dhammaacariya, paa.lipaaraguu"

Best wishes,
Jim

 
962
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Sat Dec 4, 2004 2:17pm
Subject: Re: Tipitakadharas of Myanmar
Dear Jim,
I find this very important. The oral tradition also ensures the purity of
the texts. I am really glad this tradition is still alive. If you do not
mind I would like to use your info in dsg when there is an appropriate
occasion. People tend to doubt about the correctness of the texts.
Thank you,
Nina. 

op 03-12-2004 20:45 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> I recently came across this webpage on Tipi.takadharas of Myanmar
> which I thought might be of interest to you:
> 
> http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tpdkdhra.htm
> 
> A Tipi.takadhara is a title given to one who has the whole Tipi.taka
> memorized.

 
963
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Dec 4, 2004 8:41pm
Subject: Re: Tipitakadharas of Myanmar
Dear Nina,

Thanks for your response. I agree with you that it is very important.
You're very welcome to use the information on dsg as you think fit.
I'd also be glad to re-post the whole message to dsg if that would be
better. At the time I was in contact with the Dvipi.takadhara in 1982
(almost daily for more than a month) he told me that they memorize 6
leaves a day, if I remember correctly. I think 6 leaves = 12 pages
which would be about the length of one recital unit (a bhaa.navaara).
If I really worked at it I think it would take me about a month to
memorize what they can do in a day! I've had some success at
memorizing a few bhaa.navaaras but never a whole book. I'm going to
see if I can re-establish contacts with this thera as he did make a
promise to teach me Pali when the conditions were right.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
> I find this very important. The oral tradition also ensures the
purity of
> the texts. I am really glad this tradition is still alive. If you do
not
> mind I would like to use your info in dsg when there is an
appropriate
> occasion. People tend to doubt about the correctness of the texts.
> Thank you,
> Nina.

 
964
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2004 4:31am
Subject: Re: Tipitakadharas of Myanmar
Dear Jim,

op 05-12-2004 02:41 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
I agree with you that it is very important.
> You're very welcome to use the information on dsg as you think fit.
> I'd also be glad to re-post the whole message to dsg if that would be
> better.
N: Thank you very much, I would like your reposting and then I shall refer
to it later on. Perhaps also on our Pali yahoo? Very nice to hear more about
the method of memorizing.
Nina.

965
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Sun Dec 5, 2004 4:05pm
Subject: Re: Tipitakadharas of Myanmar
Dear Jim,
I went to the website, it is excellent. Giving us more explanations of the
benefit of memorizing.
Nina. 
op 03-12-2004 20:45 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I recently came across this webpage on Tipi.takadharas of Myanmar
> which I thought might be of interest to you:
> 
> http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tpdkdhra.htm

 
966
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Dec 8, 2004 5:38am
Subject: Re: the last part of Sd 880
Hi Rett,

I have a few comments.

> From the vutti to sutta 880 of Saddaniiti:
>
> patthanaa naama sundarassa vaa asundarassa vaa aayati.m
> upalabhitabbassa atthassa pihanaa, tissa.m patthanaaya.m:
> "bhaavaabhavaabhinibbattiya.m me sati paritassanaajiivita.m naama
> maa hotu, aya.m sumanamaalaa viya nibbatta.t.thaane piyaa va
> homii" ti vaa "ima.m jiivitaa voropetu.m samattho homii" ti vaa icc
> aadi.

The references for the first quote are: Sv II 477; Mp III 239.
However, in the PTS edns. the reading for
"bhavaabhavaabhinibbattiya.m" is "bhagavaa bhavaabhinibbattiya.m".
Smith has a footnote for this reading. Also, the Thai BBF edn. of the
Suttamaalaa has "bhagavaa". On the face of it I can only read the
'bhagavaa' as a vocative but there are two problems with this: 1) I
doubt that such a vocative would stand at the beginning of a sentence
containing 2 or more words. 2) it seems unusual to address the Buddha
as 'bhagavaa'. The problem with 'bhavaabhava-' is that it separates
into 'bhava-abhava-'. It would seem better if it were 'bhavabhava-' or
'bhavaa bhava-' in the sense of 'from existence to existence' or in
'whatever existence'. Interestingly, Mp has
'nibbattanibbatta.t.thaane' instead of 'nibbatta.t.thaane' which could
lend support to my suggestion of 'bhavabhava-' in the other compound.

I couldn't find any reference for the second quote and the BBF edn.
has only 'gavesitabba.m' (to be traced) in its footnote.

> Wishing for a lovely or a wicked purpose to be obtained in the
> future is 'aspiration' (patthanaa) by name. In this (sense of)
> aspiration: "In whatever form of existence I am reborn let there
> not be a life of fear; like this jasmine-garland may I be loved in
> my place of rebirth," or "may I be capable of depriving him of
> life," etc.

I have two problems with your "Wishing for a lovely or a wicked
purpose". I don't think 'purpose' is the right word. I'm thinking of
'goal' (wishing for a future goal). I also wonder if 'wicked' is the
opposite of 'lovely'. Perhaps, 'good or bad' might be better: wishing
for a future goal, good or bad, is called 'aspiration'.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
967
From: L.S. Cousins <selwyn@ntlworld.com> 
Date: Wed Dec 8, 2004 4:47pm
Subject: Re: the last part of Sd 880
>The references for the first quote are: Sv II 477; Mp III 239.
>However, in the PTS edns. the reading for
>"bhavaabhavaabhinibbattiya.m" is "bhagavaa bhavaabhinibbattiya.m".
>Smith has a footnote for this reading. Also, the Thai BBF edn. of the
>Suttamaalaa has "bhagavaa". On the face of it I can only read the
>'bhagavaa' as a vocative but there are two problems with this: 1) I
>doubt that such a vocative would stand at the beginning of a sentence
>containing 2 or more words. 2) it seems unusual to address the Buddha
>as 'bhagavaa'.

I agree. A reading of punabbhavaabhinibbattiya.m would be much more normal.


>The problem with 'bhavaabhava-' is that it separates
>into 'bhava-abhava-'. It would seem better if it were 'bhavabhava-' or
>'bhavaa bhava-' in the sense of 'from existence to existence' or in
>'whatever existence'. Interestingly, Mp has
>'nibbattanibbatta.t.thaane' instead of 'nibbatta.t.thaane' which could
>lend support to my suggestion of 'bhavabhava-' in the other compound.

Bhavaabhava occurs so often in verse for bhavabhava in the sense of 
multiple existences that it probably has that sense here.
(This is supposed to be rhythmical lengthening.)

Lance Cousins

 
968
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Dec 8, 2004 8:46pm
Subject: Re: the last part of Sd 880
Lance,

> I agree. A reading of punabbhavaabhinibbattiya.m would be much more
normal.

I did some more searching and found two interpretations at Sn-a II
517:

bhavaabhavesuuti kaamabhavaadisu. atha vaa bhavaabhavesuuti
bhava-bhavesu, punappunabhavesuuti vutta.m hoti.

A fairly elaborate explanation is given at Sadd I 248-9 which includes
the following lines:

bhavo ca abhavo caa ti samaasattha.m vade budho;
bhavato bhavam icc attha.m asamaasassa bhaasaye, --p.249,9-10

Best wishes,

Jim

 
969
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Wed Dec 8, 2004 11:48pm
Subject: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Just reporting that I met for a few hours with Peter Skilling. He was kind 
enough to give me a free copy of his recent book (Pali & Vernacular sources 
from Central Thailand, etc.) and also of a recent survey of Pali manuscripts 
in Cambodia under the same imprint (under his editorship, perhaps?). In 
return, I could only offer him a few pages of my "forthcoming" book (we had 
a few jokes about the use of the word "forthcoming" in this line of 
work...). 

Skilling told me that the major concentration of (living) Pali grammaticians 
(among Thai monks) was centred around a single Vihara in Lampang (Northern 
Thailand, East of Chiang-Mai). He reported that there was a very learned 
Burmese monk there (now in his 80s) who "speaks English well, but with a 
very heavy accent" --and he is responsible, Skilling says, for the revival 
of interest in Pali grammar in the present generation. Skilling said he 
doubted that there was a single expert in Pali grammar (among monks) in 
Thailand who had not been his student, in Lampang, at some point; however, 
Skilling stated that he did not know which books or which methods were used 
there. 

Sounds worth investigating. If anyone knows more of this, I would be glad 
to learn. I could see Lampang on my way to Nan at the end of this month. 

One further note: Skilling recalled to me what he knew about interlinear and 
other adaptations of Kaccayana, and stated that there was a locally-adapted 
version (of some kind) in Cambodia called "Kaccayana Me-Sutra" (the "Me" is 
the same syllable as in "Mekong", i.e., "Mother Sutra") but he was not sure 
what the nature of the book was, except that it had become the pre-eminent 
hand-book for monks learning Pali in Cambodia for many centuries. It may be 
the same Pali original with a Khmer commentary, or perhaps a revision of the 
book entire. It is listed in the survey of Khmer texts that Skilling 
provided me as extant in manuscript form at various libraries. Again, if 
anyone knows ought of this, I would be glad to hear more. 

E.M. 


-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Irrigators lead the water; fletchers fashion the shaft; carpenters carve the 
wood; the wise discipline themselves.
Random Dhammapada Verse 80

 
970
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Dec 9, 2004 4:44am
Subject: Re: the last part of Sd 880
Thanks Jim and Lance for the very helpful comments.

> I also wonder if 'wicked' is the
>opposite of 'lovely'. Perhaps, 'good or bad' might be better: wishing
>for a future goal, good or bad, is called 'aspiration'.

Yes, I went out on a limb there. I'm curious what you and others 
think about the words 'sundara' and 'asundara'. I read them as being 
slightly flowery uses of language in the Pali. So I translated with 
'lovely' (like in the well-known translation of kalyaa.na) which 
combines moral goodness with beauty. 'Wicked' was an attempt to find 
an antonym at the same stylistic level, though I admit it does sound 
like something from Snow White or the Wizard of Oz. Normally one 
would expect a more sober tone in grammatical literature.

Perhaps sundara and asundara really are just plain prosaic words in 
the Pali? Opinions, guesses?

Another word which I have a similar question about is sa.mcaranti in:

paa.liya.m hi etaa hiyyatan'-ajjataniyo anekasahassadhaa 
maa-yoga.t.thaane sa.mcaranti. Sd 888

"These imperfect/aorists turn up in numerous thousands of ways in the 
canon in connection with 'maa'."

The choice of sa.mcaranti made me smile, as though he had chosen a 
playful expression. The image was like a bunch of little verbs 
frolicking on a green pasture. But again, this might just be a plain 
term which only looks playful to a relative beginner who's reading 
too much into the metaphor.


best regards,

/Rett

 
971
From: Miyamoto Tadao <professortadaomiyamoto@yahoo.co.jp> 
Date: Thu Dec 9, 2004 8:14am
Subject: Re: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Hi Everyone:
I'm very pleased to hear that the Burmese Pali teacher is still alive.
I was there for 6 months in the mid 1970's. At that time, the place
was the only Pali centre in Thailand, teaching the language using the traditional
method. I think we used Kaccaya as a textbook.
Every novice/monk had to learn the whole text by heart before allowing to attend
classses in the temple. In these classes, these students recieved instructions 
on how to use the grammatical rules they have memoried.
That is, to derive the so-called surface forms from the so-called
underlying forms, they have to learn how to chose 
certain sets of rules and how to apply these rules in predescribed sequential manners.
tadao




--- navako <navako@metta.lk> Υå
> 
> 
> Just reporting that I met for a few hours with Peter Skilling. He was kind 
> enough to give me a free copy of his recent book (Pali & Vernacular sources 
> from Central Thailand, etc.) and also of a recent survey of Pali manuscripts 
> in Cambodia under the same imprint (under his editorship, perhaps?). In 
> return, I could only offer him a few pages of my "forthcoming" book (we had 
> a few jokes about the use of the word "forthcoming" in this line of 
> work...). 
> 
> Skilling told me that the major concentration of (living) Pali grammaticians 
> (among Thai monks) was centred around a single Vihara in Lampang (Northern 
> Thailand, East of Chiang-Mai). He reported that there was a very learned 
> Burmese monk there (now in his 80s) who "speaks English well, but with a 
> very heavy accent" --and he is responsible, Skilling says, for the revival 
> of interest in Pali grammar in the present generation. Skilling said he 
> doubted that there was a single expert in Pali grammar (among monks) in 
> Thailand who had not been his student, in Lampang, at some point; however, 
> Skilling stated that he did not know which books or which methods were used 
> there. 
> 
> Sounds worth investigating. If anyone knows more of this, I would be glad 
> to learn. I could see Lampang on my way to Nan at the end of this month. 
> 
> One further note: Skilling recalled to me what he knew about interlinear and 
> other adaptations of Kaccayana, and stated that there was a locally-adapted 
> version (of some kind) in Cambodia called "Kaccayana Me-Sutra" (the "Me" is 
> the same syllable as in "Mekong", i.e., "Mother Sutra") but he was not sure 
> what the nature of the book was, except that it had become the pre-eminent 
> hand-book for monks learning Pali in Cambodia for many centuries. It may be 
> the same Pali original with a Khmer commentary, or perhaps a revision of the 
> book entire. It is listed in the survey of Khmer texts that Skilling 
> provided me as extant in manuscript form at various libraries. Again, if 
> anyone knows ought of this, I would be glad to hear more. 
> 
> E.M. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
> Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
> Irrigators lead the water; fletchers fashion the shaft; carpenters carve the 
> wood; the wise discipline themselves.
> Random Dhammapada Verse 80 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

 
972
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Dec 9, 2004 7:52am
Subject: Re: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Dear Eisel and Tadao,

Eisel, thanks for reporting on your interesting meeting with Peter
Skilling and about the Pali centre in Lampang which I first heard
about only this past January and it's come up a few times since then.
I'm not sure of its right spelling but Wat Ta Ma O is the one I have
in mind. If you get a chance to visit this place, it would be good if
you could check out their bookstore for traditional Pali grammars and
find out if they handle book orders from abroad.

Tadao, welcome back and thank-you for the interesting details on the
method of learning Pali at the Wat. I believe the name of the elderly
Burmese Pali teacher you refer to is Ven. Dhammanando--not the same as
the one subscribed here although I believe the latter has studied Pali
with the older one.

For newcomers, Tadao used to teach at the University of Victoria,
British Colombia as a professor of linguistics and even taught Pali
there as a summer course a few times. At the beginning of April he
took up a new position at the Graduate School of International
Cultural Studies at Tohoku University in Japan.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Just reporting that I met for a few hours with Peter Skilling. He
was kind
> enough to give me a free copy of his recent book (Pali & Vernacular
sources
> from Central Thailand, etc.) and also of a recent survey of Pali
manuscripts
> in Cambodia under the same imprint (under his editorship, perhaps?).
In
> return, I could only offer him a few pages of my "forthcoming" book
(we had
> a few jokes about the use of the word "forthcoming" in this line of
> work...).

 
973
From: Miyamoto Tadao <professortadaomiyamoto@yahoo.co.jp> 
Date: Thu Dec 9, 2004 10:56pm
Subject: Re: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Hi, Jim:
Yes, the name of the temple is "Wat Tamao". (I can cearly visualize the entire temple.)
I do not recall the name of the Burmese teacher. But he had very heavy Burese accent 
when he spoke in Thai. When I firts visited the temple, I felt very odd to see (and hear)
young novices memorizing the entire Pali grammar book without undestanding 
even a single word in it. However, it is the traditional Indian method, which is quite
effective in a long run.
tadao





--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> Υå
> 
> Dear Eisel and Tadao,
> 
> Eisel, thanks for reporting on your interesting meeting with Peter
> Skilling and about the Pali centre in Lampang which I first heard
> about only this past January and it's come up a few times since then.
> I'm not sure of its right spelling but Wat Ta Ma O is the one I have
> in mind. If you get a chance to visit this place, it would be good if
> you could check out their bookstore for traditional Pali grammars and
> find out if they handle book orders from abroad.
> 
> Tadao, welcome back and thank-you for the interesting details on the
> method of learning Pali at the Wat. I believe the name of the elderly
> Burmese Pali teacher you refer to is Ven. Dhammanando--not the same as
> the one subscribed here although I believe the latter has studied Pali
> with the older one.
> 
> For newcomers, Tadao used to teach at the University of Victoria,
> British Colombia as a professor of linguistics and even taught Pali
> there as a summer course a few times. At the beginning of April he
> took up a new position at the Graduate School of International
> Cultural Studies at Tohoku University in Japan.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> > Just reporting that I met for a few hours with Peter Skilling. He
> was kind
> > enough to give me a free copy of his recent book (Pali & Vernacular
> sources
> > from Central Thailand, etc.) and also of a recent survey of Pali
> manuscripts
> > in Cambodia under the same imprint (under his editorship, perhaps?).
> In
> > return, I could only offer him a few pages of my "forthcoming" book
> (we had
> > a few jokes about the use of the word "forthcoming" in this line of
> > work...).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

 
974
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:17am
Subject: Re: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Hi Tadao,

> When I firts visited the temple, I felt very odd to see (and hear)
>young novices memorizing the entire Pali grammar book without undestanding
>even a single word in it. However, it is the traditional Indian 
>method, which is quite effective in a long run.

This is very interesting stuff. I hope we will get to hear more about 
it from you. It's been 30 years, but do you remember if they recited 
the number of each sutta? And was the recitation fast and continous, 
or was there a pause between the suttas? Did they recite the vutti as 
well?

I also believe memorization is very helpful, and that the many Pali 
texts memorized by the Bhikkhus must go a long way towards teaching 
them the language. Even as a layman, the short texts like the 'iti pi 
so', that we recited, without even knowing what they meant, became 
like a condensed reference grammar later. When I first learned the 
declesions of nouns ending in consonant stems I suddenly remembered 
'kaayena vacaa cittena' and understood vacaa for the first time. From 
then on I couldn't forget it. It still happens that I 'look up' a 
declension in my mind by thinking of those short texts we used to 
chant at temple. The Indian system seems to have developed this 
method to a very high level.

best regards

/Rett

 
975
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:31am
Subject: Re: footnote to previous
P.S. About memorization, after my last post I 'listened' to that 
chant in my mind and heard clearly that vaac has a long vowel, not a 
short one like I wrote in that post. So I guess memorization is even 
useful for correcting mistakes.

/ET

 
976
From: Miyamoto Tadao <professortadaomiyamoto@yahoo.co.jp> 
Date: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:04am
Subject: Re: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Hi Rett:
There wasn't any group chanting. Each learner leant Pali passages by heart,
meaning that they vocalize the passages in whatever manners they liked.
Also the Burmese teacher didn't give any specific intstructions on how
the students should memorize the entire book. (Each student knew that
without memorizing (at least the part of) the book, they wouldn't have any chance
of attending classes.
As for memorization, I can still recall the first passage of Kaccaya, which I couldn't
intrepret when I opened the book, dispite the fact that by then I had studied Pali for seven years.
The incident was very much the beginning of my interest in Linguistics, which is now my profession.
tadao





--- rett <rett@telia.com> Υå
> 
> Hi Tadao,
> 
> > When I firts visited the temple, I felt very odd to see (and hear)
> >young novices memorizing the entire Pali grammar book without undestanding
> >even a single word in it. However, it is the traditional Indian 
> >method, which is quite effective in a long run.
> 
> This is very interesting stuff. I hope we will get to hear more about 
> it from you. It's been 30 years, but do you remember if they recited 
> the number of each sutta? And was the recitation fast and continous, 
> or was there a pause between the suttas? Did they recite the vutti as 
> well?
> 
> I also believe memorization is very helpful, and that the many Pali 
> texts memorized by the Bhikkhus must go a long way towards teaching 
> them the language. Even as a layman, the short texts like the 'iti pi 
> so', that we recited, without even knowing what they meant, became 
> like a condensed reference grammar later. When I first learned the 
> declesions of nouns ending in consonant stems I suddenly remembered 
> 'kaayena vacaa cittena' and understood vacaa for the first time. From 
> then on I couldn't forget it. It still happens that I 'look up' a 
> declension in my mind by thinking of those short texts we used to 
> chant at temple. The Indian system seems to have developed this 
> method to a very high level.
> 
> best regards
> 
> /Rett
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

 
977
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:08am
Subject: Re: the last part of Sd 880
Hi Rett,

> > I also wonder if 'wicked' is the
> > opposite of 'lovely'. Perhaps, 'good or bad' might be better:
> > wishing for a future goal, good or bad, is called 'aspiration'.
>
> Yes, I went out on a limb there. I'm curious what you and others
> think about the words 'sundara' and 'asundara'. I read them as being
> slightly flowery uses of language in the Pali. So I translated with
> 'lovely' (like in the well-known translation of kalyaa.na) which
> combines moral goodness with beauty. 'Wicked' was an attempt to find
> an antonym at the same stylistic level, though I admit it does sound
> like something from Snow White or the Wizard of Oz. Normally one
> would expect a more sober tone in grammatical literature.

Choosing the right words in a translation can be quite a challenge! I
believe that translation work of good quality can only be easy for one
who has an excellent command over both the source and the target
language. Unfortunately, I'm among those who find translation work
quite difficult and often with unsatisfactory results as there always
seems to be room for further improvement.

In your "wishing for a lovely or a wicked purpose...", I find it
strange to be 'wishing for a purpose' in the context and my 'wishing
for a goal' also seems strange although 'wishing to attain a goal'
would be better. I came across 'advantage' in the meanings
given by Apte for 'artha' (8a) and thought of that as a
possibility--wishing for an advantage to be obtained in the future
whether for a good or an evil (purpose). But that 'to be obtained'
does sound awkward there. Perhaps, 'the wish to attain a future goal
whether good or evil/bad is called 'patthanaa'.

I looked into the derivation of 'sundara' which is not too well
documented. Apte gives: sund-ara.h (U.n 3.133) ie. the root 'sund' +
the u.naadi affix 'ara'. He does not have a separate entry for the
root 'sund' which is neither listed in Panini's Dhaatupaa.tha nor in
the Saddaniiti. However, MW does have an entry saying that it is a
Sautra root meaning 'to shine, be bright' which sounds right although
the term 'Sautra root' is a new one for me. I could not find any
'sundara' listed in my reference work on the u.naadisuutras.

I'm more familiar with 'sundara' as one of the meanings of the prefix
'su' and have come across these two synonyms given for it in the
commentaries: kalyaa.na and saadhu.

> Another word which I have a similar question about is sa.mcaranti
> in:
>
> paa.liya.m hi etaa hiyyatan'-ajjataniyo anekasahassadhaa
> maa-yoga.t.thaane sa.mcaranti. Sd 888
>
> "These imperfect/aorists turn up in numerous thousands of ways in
> the canon in connection with 'maa'."

I'm afraid I can't help much with this one as it doesn't look familiar
to me. Your guess seems fine to me.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
978
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:45pm
Subject: Re: the last part of Sd 880
Hi Jim,

>I came across 'advantage' in the meanings
>given by Apte for 'artha' (8a) and thought of that as a
>possibility--wishing for an advantage to be obtained in the future
>whether for a good or an evil (purpose). But that 'to be obtained'
>does sound awkward there.

Perhaps 'benefit' would work as well.

About awkwardness, I don't mind a bit of awkwardness in translation 
from Pali, at least as long as the translation is mostly for study 
purposes - as a way to render one's understanding a snippet of 
original text. But I agree that 'wishing for a purpose' doesn't sound 
right there.

best regards,

/Rett

 
979
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:15pm
Subject: Re: Meeting with Peter Skilling; Lampang
Dear Tadao,

Thanks for describing the teaching milieu at that temple. I think all 
of us on this group enjoy hearing about such experiences.

>As for memorization, I can still recall the first passage of 
>Kaccaya, which I couldn't
>intrepret when I opened the book, dispite the fact that by then I 
>had studied Pali for seven years.
>The incident was very much the beginning of my interest in 
>Linguistics, which is now my profession.

If you have time, do you (or any list members) have any comments on 
or corrections of the below? It's a working translation of the first 
sutta (and vutti) of kaccaayana which I posted over on Yahoo-Pali to 
kick off a little series of introductory lessons on traditional Pali 
grammar. (of course, I'm the one that would need lessons) This 
initial sutta is fairly straightforward, but many condensed, 
perplexing, technical verses are coming soon after this one. I'm not 
sure about 'phonemes' for akkharaa, but 'letters' and 'sounds' both 
seem to miss part of the sense.


best regards,

/Rett


attho akkharasaaato /1/

sabbavacanaana.m attho akkhareh' eva saaayate / akkharavipattiya.m 
hi atthassa dunnayataa hoti / tasmaa akkharakosalla.m bahuupakaara.m 
suttantesu //

Translation:

1) Meaning is made intelligible through phonemes

The meaning of all statements is made intelligible only through the 
phonemes. For when there is a mistake in the phonemes, the meaning is 
hard to derive. Hence proficiency in phonemes is of great assistance 
in the suttantas.

Notes:

I chose 'phonemes' here for akkharaa though it might have been 
possible to translate as 'letters' or 'sounds' or even 
'imperishables'. However since this rule applies equally well to 
written as spoken statements I believe phoneme might be a defensible 
choice. A phoneme is a morphological irreducible, the smallest 
sense-distinguishing unit. Unlike English, Pali uses a phonemic 
script, so letters and sounds correspond on a one-to-one basis to 
each other.

akkharavipatti: I'm not sure if this means arranging the letters in 
the wrong order, or failing to write or enunciate them legibly or 
intelligibly, or both.

 
980
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:05pm
Subject: Rett's translation of Kaccayana 1-1
Hello, 

Obviously, because I'm working intensively with Kaccayana, I'm interested 
in Rett's attempts to translate it. As I have copies of both Senart's 
summary-explanations (in French) and the one-and-only published English 
translation (an obscure Maha-Bodhi-Society edition), I could chime in with a 
comparative reading from those editions. 

I think Kaccayana 1-1 is pretty straightforward. There are some tricky and 
enjoyable verses later in the book; e.g., the opening verse of the book on 
verbs, with a protracted metaphor of "waves of the ocean". 

Re:
> I chose 'phonemes' here for akkharaa though it might have been 
> possible to translate as 'letters'... Unlike English, Pali uses a phonemic 
> script, so letters and sounds correspond on a one-to-one basis to 
> each other.

(1) Sadly, not all scripts in which Pali is written are phonemic (e.g., 
Roman!), however, the major scripts of anitquity did always express one 
syllable with one glyph (e.g., Sinhalese, Burmese and Khom/Khmer (but not 
modern Thai script) are in this sense "perfectly syllabic"), (2) According 
to popular theory, the verses of Kaccayana are supposed to pre-date the 
writing of the Pali language (the storied "purely aural tradition" phase, to 
which all Indian religions refer their origins, but few to none can 
demonstrate beyond the level of a myth); so one could say "syllables" and be 
done with it (i.e., de-emphasise the written component altogether). I don't 
think this is a serious issue. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
The man who is lazy and a glutton, who eats large meals and rolls in his 
sleep like a pig which is fed in the sty is reborn again and again.
Random Dhammapada Verse 325

 
981
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:45pm
Subject: list business
Dear members,

Starting next weekend I'll be taking an extended period of time off
from list participation as I'll be away for the Christmas holidays and
when I come back to my cabin in the New Year I'd like to devote some
quiet time to reflection and study. When I'm ready to resume list
participation, I'll just re-appear as before. Until then, Nina will
tell you that I've gone into hibernation...

You can still post to this list during my absence as always and I will
check in periodically to see if everything is okay. And you can still
reach me off-list.

The list was inactive between Sept. 23 and Nov. 15 and in this recent
round of activity there has been 63 messages posted up to now. I only
got as far as posting a translation of the first paragraph of the
Mukhamattadiipanii and the text only of the second para. I hope to do
better the next time.

Rett has just begun posting suttas from the Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na
with a translation and notes on Yong Peng's Pali list and it looks as
though he has got off to a good start with two excellent posts
covering the first two suttas. I wish him good luck in his worthwhile
endeavour.

Best wishes and happy holidays to you all!

Jim

 
982
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:34pm
Subject: Re: list business
Hello again,

I think it may be time for me to give up being the list-owner. I'd be
interested in hearing from any of you who may be interested in taking
over this position. I will keep the list until next spring and if
there are no takers by then, I will consider closing it down.

Best wishes,
Jim

 
983
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 9:53am
Subject: Prakrits and Early schools of Buddhism
The following is quoted from S.M. Katre (1945), pg. 22-4, for your interest: 

"Apabhrangsha was also used in the East of India by the Northern Buddhists. 
The _Dohaako.sa_ of Kaa.nha and Saraha is in this dialect, the first of whom 
is ascribed to c. 700 A.D. According to Viniitadeva (8th century A.D.) the 
Sammitiiya sect of Buddhists employed Apabhrangsha, the Mahaasanghikas 
[used] Prakrit, and the Sthaviravaadins Paishaacii. [...] According to 
Buddhist tradition ... the Sthaviras, one of the four main schools of 
Vaibhaa.sikas, are said to have used Paishaacii as their literary medium, 
but of this no trace is available to us." 

--I have never once read before that the early sects of Buddhism could have 
been (in part or in whole) defined by their Prakrit of preference for their 
own writing. It is strange enough to think that men who knew one artificial 
language (i.e., Pali) would learn yet another, or at any rate use another 
(i.e., if they knew it first), for their own discourses. 

E.M. 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
But he who has this (feeling) fully cut off, uprooted and destroyed, gains 
peace by day and by night.
Random Dhammapada Verse 250

 
984
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:06am
Subject: Participle form: Santang, samaanang, etc.
F. Mason (1868) explains the following as a participle form of "asa" (i.e.,
to be), but it seems to me that it could instead be the participle form of
"sammati", and a few dictionary entries seem to suggest this as well: 

Pathamapurisa | Majjhimapurisa | Uttamapurisa
---------------------------------------------------
eka Santang santii santo
bahu samaanang samaanaa samaano 


Now, I find that I am without any kind of lexical source to really affirm or
deny this: is "santo" (etc.) a participle of "asa" or of "sammati"? If
anyone has a textbook that definitely gives a different conjugation for the
participle of *either* "sammati" *or* "asa" this would be very useful to me. 

Thank you, 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
A worse taint than these is ignorance, the greatest taint. Abandoning this 
taint, be taintless, O Bhikkhus!
Random Dhammapada Verse 243

 
985
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:32am
Subject: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
Hello, 

By comparing examples from different texts, I believe I have at least 
sorted out the English terminology for this phenomenon (I do not yet know of 
a precise Pali term for it): 

What Mason calls "The Continuative Participle", is the same as what modern 
Sanskritists would call "the Absolutive participle", and what Duroiselle 
gives the very-confusing name of "The Present Participle Active". 

I believe this is the form treated very briefly in Kaccayana's 604th verse, 
which I honestly cannot get any meaning out of, except that the set of 
examples following it are all of absolutive forms: hutvaa, datvaa, etc., 
with the meaning being "Having done", "Having given", "Having cooked", etc. 
etc. 

I reproduce the following from Piyaratana's Sinhalese script edition
[Verses 603-604, pg. 121, sutta only, excluding Vutti & examples]: 

taddhita samaasa kitakaa naa mang vaatavetuunaadisu ca.
dumhi garu. 

Bodhi's technical grammar doesn't discuss this term; does anyone know of a 
name for the absolutive participle in Pali that is used in classical 
sources? Or, can anyone unravel an appropriate name from the verse above? 

E.M. 


-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Even as rain does not penetrate a well-thatched house, so does lust not 
penetrate a well-developed mind.
Random Dhammapada Verse 14

 
986
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:44am
Subject: Re: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
Hi Eisel,

>
> I believe this is the form treated very briefly in Kaccayana's 604th verse,
>which I honestly cannot get any meaning out of, except that the set of
>examples following it are all of absolutive forms: hutvaa, datvaa, etc.,
>with the meaning being "Having done", "Having given", "Having cooked", etc.
>etc.
>
> I reproduce the following from Piyaratana's Sinhalese script edition
>[Verses 603-604, pg. 121, sutta only, excluding Vutti & examples]:
>
> taddhita samaasa kitakaa naa mang vaatavetuunaadisu ca.
> dumhi garu.
>
> Bodhi's technical grammar doesn't discuss this term; does anyone know of a
>name for the absolutive participle in Pali that is used in classical
>sources? Or, can anyone unravel an appropriate name from the verse above?

The above verses don't really treat the absolutive but rather 
mention it in passing to explain some other issues. I haven't worked 
the verses out, but no term for the absolutive is provided there, so 
much I can see. I believe the locus classicus for the absolutive is 
Kc 566 (vii, 2, 15). This is probably where you want to look.

from the vutti to 566:

pubbakaale ekakattukaana.m dhaatuuna.m tuuna tvaana tvaa icc ete 
paccayaa honti vaa.

However both here, and in the corresponding (expanded) section in 
Saddaniiti (1150-1156), there doesn't seem to be any special term for 
the form. It is rather referred to by the endings it employs.

Warder mentions a term 'pubbakiriyaa' (past action, preparation) for 
the absolutive (which he calls 'gerund', _Introduction to Pali_, pg 
48) but I haven't seen it used anywhere and can't find it in the word 
index to Sadd. Perhaps there is a such term in Mmd, or Ruupasiddhi? 
Anyone?

best regards,

/Rett

 
987
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:42am
Subject: Re: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
Rett, 

This is a good answer, but it begets more questions. 

The term "Pubbakriya" appears 3 times in the (maha-)Ruupa-siddhi, and twice 
in the Vaakyamaalaava. Either one could be Warder's source. 

"Pubbakriya" could indeed be a fitting term for the absolutive --I'm 
interpreting the Pubba- as the same usage found in Pubba-kicca, etc. 

*However*, the Gerund is not the same as the absolutive; and if Warder 
assigns it to the Gerund, this possibility should be investigated --although 
it is possible that Warder was misusing the English word Gerund. "Cooking" 
is a gerund, but "Having cooked" is the absolutive; thus "Pubbakriya" would 
describe the latter, i.e., something done in preparation --and the "kriya" 
ending makes sense it is the verb (not the object) to which the 
"preparation" relates as a predicate. 

I am almost proud to say that I do not own a copy of Warder's grammar: 
Rett, could you just check to make sure that the endings he calls 
"Pubbakriya" match up with the absolutive? 

I'll go take a look at Kaccayana's verse 566 this evening. 

FYI: Nyanamoli & Bodhi's _Glossary of Buddhist Techical Terms_ does *not* 
include the term. I do not now know of a lexical source that does. 

Thanks for your help, 

Eisel. 


-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
He who is stained (with defilements) without self-control and truthfulness, 
is not worthy of wearing the yellow robes.
Random Dhammapada Verse 9

 
988
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:49am
Subject: Re: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
Hi Eisel,

>
> *However*, the Gerund is not the same as the absolutive; and if Warder
>assigns it to the Gerund, this possibility should be investigated --although
>it is possible that Warder was misusing the English word Gerund.

It's not just Warder; many Sanskrit and Pali grammarians have chosen 
the word 'gerund' for the infinite participles ending in -tvaa/-ya 
etc. As far as I can tell, not having had Latin in school, the 
-tvaa/-ya infinite participle resembles the Latin gerund in that it 
can take objects and be modified by adverbs. This might why they've 
chosen the term 'gerund' despite its differing widely in actual 
employment from the Latin gerund. I've also heard it said that the 
English word 'gerund' is itself more on the order of a good trick for 
pupils translating from Latin than a valid English grammatical 
category.

> I am almost proud to say that I do not own a copy of Warder's grammar:

And you're from University of Toronto? ;-) What makes Warder helpful 
for working with traditional grammar (at least at the beginning) is 
that his book includes very many of these grammatical terms, like 
pubbakiriyaa, and that they are indexed. I had it on my shelf for a 
long time without even realizing what a valuable resource it was.

>Rett, could you just check to make sure that the endings he calls
>"Pubbakriya" match up with the absolutive?

Here's the relevant passage (_Introduction to Pali_, page 48):

"Gerund

The gerund (pubbakiriyaa), an indeclinable participle, is used to 
express an action preceding (pubba) the action of the main verb of a 
sentence. It may thus conclude a subordinate clause. The agent of the 
gerund is the same as that of the main action..."

Check out that not-so-subtle nod to traditional grammar in the 
discussion of the 'agent' and compare to: pubbakaale _ekakattukaana.m 
dhaatuuna.m_ tuuna tvaana tvaa icc ete paccayaa honti vaa. (Kc 566 
vutti) Warder is thinking in terms of the traditional categories 
here, as is necessary if the 'gerund' is to function properly in 
sentences where the main verb is passive.

Continuing, "Complex sentences are constructed with clauses concluded 
by partiples or gerunds preceding the main clause with the main verb. 
In this way the agent is desribed as performing a group or series of 
actions. Each clause may have its own patient (i.e. gerunds may take 
patients in the accusative, like other verb forms). The gerund is 
usually (but far from always) formed from the same stem as the past 
participle by adding the suffixes tvaa, itvaa, or ya :-"

> I'll go take a look at Kaccayana's verse 566 this evening.
>
> FYI: Nyanamoli & Bodhi's _Glossary of Buddhist Techical Terms_ does *not*
>include the term. I do not now know of a lexical source that does.

This is really interesting. Any chance you could send in a few lines 
from the ruupasiddhi using the term? (only if you have time, of 
course)

In any case, naming the form after one particular employment (past 
action) might have been avoided since the form can also refer to 
simultaneous action. This might be why grammarians prefer to refer to 
it formally, in terms of the endings used to form it. This would be 
more in the Indian grammatical spirit of working from morphology 
upwards.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

best regards,

/Rett

 
989
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:04am
Subject: Re: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
Hi Rett, 

Thanks for the quote from Warder --as always, his prose is opaque to the 
point of being obfuscatory. 

>> I am almost proud to say that I do not own a copy of Warder's grammar:
> 
> And you're from University of Toronto? ;-)

About the only thing Warder and I have in common is that we despise Toronto, 
and especially its university; I, however, have escaped it, whereas he has 
not. I met and interviewed him once (for about an hour and a half) --the 
result of that interview can be found on-line. 

> What makes Warder helpful 
> for working with traditional grammar (at least at the beginning) is 
> that his book includes very many of these grammatical terms, like 
> pubbakiriyaa, and that they are indexed.

However, they are not credited to sources; and it is significant (to me) 
that the terms endemic to Kaccayana be kept discrete from later accretions 
to the grammatical tradition. My book does use some grammatical terms of 
later coinage, but they are all duly notes as being foreign to Kaccayana 
--and, where possible, I have traced their usage to their school of origin. 

> This is really interesting. Any chance you could send in a few lines 
> from the ruupasiddhi using the term? (only if you have time, of 
> course)

The entire Ruupasiddhi is available as a free etext --as are the others I 
mentioned. I did not mention that the term is also employed in the 
Balavataro (with the alternate spelling Pubbakriya --rather than 
Pubbakiriya). This makes it quite easy to search and find instances of the 
term being employed:
http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#PPhil 

Scroll down to Pali texts --the grammars are under "paracanonical texts", 
under the further category of "Philology", as I recall. 

> In any case, naming the form after one particular employment (past 
> action) might have been avoided since the form can also refer to 
> simultaneous action.

No no --that's precisely why the chosen name is perfect! "Pubba-" doesn't 
necessarily mean "Past", but has meanings related to preparation (as I wrote 
previously). Thus, a present usage such as "Having cooked we eat" fits the 
term; and so would more complex examples, "Would that we had cooked we could 
eat", etc. 

E.M. 



-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless, (Nibbana) heedlessness is the path 
to death. The heedful do not die; the heedless are like unto the dead.
Random Dhammapada Verse 21

 
990
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:03am
Subject: Re: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
Hi Eisel and group,

>
>
>> This is really interesting. Any chance you could send in a few lines
>> from the ruupasiddhi using the term? (only if you have time, of
>> course)
>
>The entire Ruupasiddhi is available as a free etext --as are the others I
>mentioned. I did not mention that the term is also employed in the
>Balavataro (with the alternate spelling Pubbakriya --rather than
>Pubbakiriya). This makes it quite easy to search and find instances of the
>term being employed:
>http://www.sub.uni-goettingen.de/ebene_1/fiindolo/gretil.htm#PPhil
>
>

Thanks. Here's the location in the ruupasiddhi commenting on Kc 566 
and including the term 'pubbakiriyaa'. There may be transcription 
errors/typos because of the source of the text (SLTP).

pubbakaalekakattukaana.m tuunatvaanatvaa vaa. 621-566.

pubbakaaloti pubbakiriyaa. eko kattaa yesa.m te = eka kattukaa. 
tesa.m ekakattukaana.m samaanakattukaana.m dhaatuunamantare 
pubbakaale vattamaanaa dhaatumhaa tuuna tvaana tvaa iccete paccayaa 
honti vaa

I think in the above it's doubtful that the term 'pubbakiriyaa' is 
being defined as a term for the absolutive. It appears rather to be 
descriptive, explicating the term 'pubbakaale' in the rule.

Perhaps pubbakaaloti is a mistake for pubbakaal_e_ti? (e/o switches 
being easy mistakes to make in the Sinhalese alphabet) Or maybe 
pubbakaala has simply been put into the nominative case in the 
explanation because of some convention at work here?

I'm not sure of the exact sense of 'antare pubbakaale'. If the two 
words are to be taken together I would almost expect 'anantare' 
there, 'in the immediately preceding time'. Or perhaps the two words 
aren't to be taken together, and the sentence rather reads, 'with 
regards to (antare) these roots having one agent, having an agent in 
common, in the sense of past time (pubbakaale), after the present 
(form of the) root the suffixes "tuuna, tvaana, tvaa" are found.'

I haven't looked closely at the other passages you cited yet, but it 
would be interesting to go through them and see whether 
'pubbakiriyaa' is ever clearly employed as a _designation_ of the 
absolutive form. I'm a bit sceptical, though, since it seems that 
since this is the sutta which most explicitly takes up the form, if 
'pubbakiriyaa' were to be defined as a term for the form, it ought to 
happen here.

Another question is whether the term shows up in grammatical contexts 
in the atthakathaa or .tiika literature.

best regards,

/Rett

 
991
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:27am
Subject: Re: The "Continuative Participle" mystery solved?
> I think in the above it's doubtful that the term 'pubbakiriyaa' is 
> being defined as a term for the absolutive.

I agree. I only spent a few minutes doing the same thing you're doing now 
--i.e., staring at its various appearances in the etexts of the grammatical 
literature-- but none of them seemed to use it as the "proper noun" we were 
hoping for. You see, this is the type of problem that arises when guys like 
A.K. Warder just throw a term into parenthesis without supplying any 
citation or source. It could be that there's some source unknown to us that 
really does stipulate this as a correct usage --but how would we know? It 
seems to me likely (especially given the use of 'pubbakaale', etc., in the 
Kaccayana, from which the other passages all seem to be derived) that it is 
simply being used in a descriptive way --which probably isn't even specific 
to the context. The same word may be used to describe other past-tense 
forms as well --and to confirm or deny this would be quite a lot of work. 

> It appears rather to be 
> descriptive, explicating the term 'pubbakaale' in the rule.

Yes, precisely. What a let-down. Warder! 

> Perhaps pubbakaaloti is a mistake for pubbakaal_e_ti? (e/o switches 
> being easy mistakes to make in the Sinhalese alphabet)...

No, I doubt it --it appears too many times, in too many different texts. I 
still have checked the Balavataro's usage --I'll do that next. 

> Another question is whether the term shows up in grammatical contexts 
> in the atthakathaa or .tiika literature.

Yes, that's always a question; but it isn't a question that we're likely to 
answer --unless you've got an indexed copy of the massive Heviratane 
Endowment editions (I certainly don't) and you want the exercise of taking 
each volume down off the shelf, and then putting it back up again. Quite a 
work out! 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
The liar goes to a woeful state, and also he who, having done (wrong), says, 
"I did not." Both after death become equal, men of base actions in the other 
world.
Random Dhammapada Verse 306

 
992
From: Ven. Pandita <ashinpan@gmail.com> 
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:50pm
Subject: some remarks on continuative participle
Hi! Jim and others
I have been silent for a long time. It is only because I have moved 
from Taiwan to Sri Lanka and I have been busy with various activities. 
Now I am doing research at the Post Graduate Institute of Pali and 
Buddhist Studies (University of Kelaniya) and I think I may be able to 
post to my Palistudy group again.
I have read the posts no. 382 and 384 and I think I have something 
to say about the so-called "continuative participle".
First of all, I would try to explain the Kaccaayana sutta 
"pubbakaalekakattukaana.m tuunatvaanatvaa vaa" as expounded by 
ruupasiddhi, and understood in Burma.
1. "pubbakaaloti pubbakiriyaa"
The correct reading is only "pubbakaaloti", not " pubbakaaleti" as 
Rett thinks. What it means is that the compound "pubbakaala", itself the 
first member of "pubbakaalekakattukaa", may literally mean "the previous 
time" but it really means, in this context, a certain action (or a verb 
expressing it) taking place at that time.
In the oringinal sutta, it is true, it has "pubbakaale" but the 
commentator has the right to transform its case into nominative case for 
the sake of his explanation. We can know that the correct reading is 
"pubbakaaloti" from the comment "pubbakiriyaa", which is in nominative 
case. If the original reading were "pubbakaalete", it should have been 
"pubbakiriyaaya" or "pubbakiriyaaya.m" (that is, in locative case)
2. "antare"
The word "antare" is actually more closely related to the preceding 
"ekakattukaana.m samaanakattukaana.m dhaatuuna.m". A rule of thumb in 
Burmese tradition is that whenever a noun in genitive case (generally 
plural) is followed by the word "antare", it means the sense of 
niddhara.na (Please see the sutta "niddhara.ne ca" in Kaccayana and 
Ruupasiddhi) To explain it with an example:
puttaana.m je.t.tho se.t.tho = puttaana.m antare je.t.tho se.t.tho 
(Among the sons, the eldest is the best)
In this case also, this rule is applicable. The word "antare" in the 
following vutti is meant to indicate that the genitive case of 
"pubbakaalekakattukaana.m" has the sense of niddhara.na 
("between/among") Then the proper sense of the sutta would come out as 
follows:
"Out of the the verbs having the same subject, the verb (belonging to) a 
previous time has the suffixes (following it) tvaana, tvaa, iccete in 
some instances"
Now I would like to explain in my own words, that is, how we 
understand this so-called continuative participle. It is in fact a verb 
but it cannot stand on his own; it is dependent on another verb taking 
place later than it in the time frame of context. We usually translate 
it as a verb followed by "... and" For instance:
puriso bhutvaa gachaati = The man eats and goes (that is, eating first 
and going later)
As for a suitable term for it, those having better English skills 
should try.

with metta

Ven. Pandita

 
993
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:58pm
Subject: Re: some remarks on continuative participle
Thanks to Bhante Pandita for his comments, 

(Incidentally, I, too, recently relocated from Taiwan --but from Taiwan to 
Thailand) 

> Now I would like to explain in my own words, that is, how we 
> understand this so-called continuative participle. It is in fact a verb 
> but it cannot stand on his own; it is dependent on another verb taking 
> place later than it in the time frame of context. We usually translate 
> it as a verb followed by "... and" For instance:
> puriso bhutvaa gachaati = The man eats and goes (that is, eating first 
> and going later)

This is what I was explaining in the form "Having eaten, the man goes". The 
latter form is the English equivalent to the absolutive (and it includes a 
gerund as part of its construction in the sentence). I suppose Warder is 
not wrong to call this a gerund, but it is confusing, as the form cannot be 
used in other ways that a gerund can be. 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
One, who controls his anger when aroused, is like a clever driver who 
controls a fast going carriage; the others are like those who merely hold 
the reins.
Random Dhammapada Verse 222

 
994
From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all.nl> 
Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:48am
Subject: Re: some remarks on continuative participle
Venerable Bhante,
you explained this very clearly with the example, thank you.
With respect,
Nina. 
op 30-12-2004 23:50 schreef Ven. Pandita op ashinpan@gmail.com:
I think I have something
> to say about the so-called "continuative participle".
> First of all, I would try to explain the Kaccaayana sutta
> "pubbakaalekakattukaana.m tuunatvaanatvaa vaa" as expounded by
> ruupasiddhi, and understood in Burma.

995
From: rett <rett@telia.com> 
Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 0:22pm
Subject: Re: some remarks on continuative participle
Dear Ven Pandita,

Thank you, Bhante, for the corrections to my translation-attempt. 
This sort of assistance is very helpful to me, and I expect also for 
list-members who may not post very often, but who are reading the 
group. As Nina said, it was a very clear and convincing set of 
answers. We're lucky to have you back, and I hope your duties will 
allow you time to look in from time to time.

> A rule of thumb in
>Burmese tradition is that whenever a noun in genitive case (generally
>plural) is followed by the word "antare", it means the sense of
>niddhara.na (Please see the sutta "niddhara.ne ca" in Kaccayana and
>Ruupasiddhi) To explain it with an example:
>puttaana.m je.t.tho se.t.tho = puttaana.m antare je.t.tho se.t.tho
>(Among the sons, the eldest is the best) In this case also, this 
>rule is applicable.

I think this is what would be called a 'partitive genitive' (picking 
out part from a group) in English, where the genitive could have been 
replaced by a locative. It's interesting to learn the commentarial 
conventions, such as adding 'antare' to explicate that usage of the 
genitive.

>
>Then the proper sense of the sutta would come out as
>follows:
>"Out of the the verbs having the same subject, the verb (belonging to) a
>previous time has the suffixes (following it) tvaana, tvaa, iccete in
>some instances"

I am still unsure about the word vattamaanaa there, because it is 
often used to designate the present tense endings. Since this context 
was about time, I automatically thought of that sense, even though it 
didn't seem to fit in. Does it here just have the present participle 
sense of 'being' 'happening' 'carrying on' ?

"pubbakaale vattamaanaa dhaatumhaa" might then read: (to) the verb 
(dhaatumhaa) which is occurring (vattamaanaa) in previous time 
(pubbakaale)...?


best regards,

/Rett

 
996
From: navako <navako@metta.lk> 
Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:26pm
Subject: The problem with the continuative participle
Although Bhante Pandita provided (as Rett remarked) "a very clear and 
convincing set of answers" --they did not, in fact, answer the questions I 
was asking. 

The function of this participle was known to me from the first, what is 
unknown (and remains debatable) is (1) the correct English term, and (2) the 
correct Pali term for this participle --if any exists. 

The function of the continuative participle is very clearly set out by 
Mason, Duroiselle, and (I assume) by Warder --and my question was not about 
its meaning or usage (as I say, this is the one thing I do know, and I tried 
to infer the terminology on this basis by comparing sources). 

So far, our conclusions seem to be (1) there is no adequate term in English, 
(2) contrary to Warder, there is no Pali term whatsoever. I would still 
appreciate any feedback on either one of these conclusions, as they are 
fairly weighty, and I am myself composing a Pali textbook, in which such 
conclusion will take on a concrete form. 

(1) I note that even Mason begins his section on this participle with 
triply-redundant terminology (section 299): "Continuative Participle. The 
indeclinable past participle is sometimes called the _gerund_. It 
corresponds to the Greek participle used to continue a sentence without a 
conjunction... [e.g.] sunakhe bhinditvaa brahm.nang rukkhato otaaretwaa 
saakhaasandhare nisidaapetvaa bhojanang datwaa imanggaata maaha". Thus, we 
have three different English terms supplied here already, none of which 
seems entirely satisfactory; Duroiselle, Warder, etc., chose different terms 
to their own satisfaction. 

(2) There seems to be no lexical source that speaks to the issue of a Pali 
term, and while Warder supplies one, the conclusion of both Rett's reading 
and mine seems to be that the term Warder supplies is false. Although 
Warder's supposition is not supported by any other lexical or classical 
source to my knowledge, this is never-the-less a weighty decision (i.e., to 
dispense with Warder's conclusion on the matter) which I do not take lightly 
--and I would very much appreciate either further opinion, or any further 
sources that anyone may have read on the matter. Thus far, it seems that 
the classical sources just call these "-Tvaa forms", and that "Pubbakiriya", 
contrary to my initial enthusiasm at the suggestion, is just a gloss on 
"Pubbakale". 

E.M. 

-- 
A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/
Get your Dhamma Books from http://books.metta.lk/
As from a heap of flowers many a garland is made even so many a good deed 
should be done by one born as a human being.
Random Dhammapada Verse 53

[end of year 2004]
