Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages)

Year 2003: Messages 612-700 (89); January 7 - July 30, 2003

612
From: jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> <jjn@bruker.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 10:07am
Subject: A K Warder Exercise 7

 
    Hi All:
Happy new year to you all. Hope you had nice holidays.

I am reading Warder and am stuck now at Excercise 7 where 
the 'solutions' to all questions end.

On page 43,

desito Aananda mayaa dhammo 

What does it translate to?

1. What is taught, O Ananda, by me dhamma -->

2. O Ananda, I teach dhamma.

3. O Ananda, I have taught dhamma.

Is this about right? Or the agent here is Ananda? What should be the 
right translation?

Thanks in advance,
jaran

PS What do numbers on pp 465 on-ward refer to?
 
 
613
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 9:02pm
Subject: Re: A K Warder Exercise 7

 
    Dear Jaran and all,

> Hi All:
> Happy new year to you all. Hope you had nice holidays.

And a happy new year from me too!

> I am reading Warder and am stuck now at Excercise 7 where
> the 'solutions' to all questions end.
>
> On page 43,
>
> desito Aananda mayaa dhammo
>
> What does it translate to?
>
> 1. What is taught, O Ananda, by me dhamma -->
>
> 2. O Ananda, I teach dhamma.
>
> 3. O Ananda, I have taught dhamma.

Your no. 3 comes closest. The Pali literally translates as: Taught, O
Ananda, by me (is) the dhamma. This is a passive sentence and can be changed
into an active one as you have done here.

> Is this about right? Or the agent here is Ananda? What should be the
> right translation?

In a passive sentence the agent takes the instrumental singular "mayaa" (by
me). In an active sentence one might find the pronoun in the nominative
(aha.m) but it can also be represented within the verb "desemi" without the
need for a pronoun. "Aananda" is in the vocative (the person whom the Buddha
is addressing). I think your translation is okay.

> Thanks in advance,
> jaran
>
> PS What do numbers on pp 465 on-ward refer to?

My copy which was printed in 1963 only goes up to p. 458. I have photocopied
some of the additional pages of a more recent edition but only up to p. 464.
If you are looking at just numbers like: III 229, etc., they may be
referring to the volume and page no. of the PTS ed. of the Diighanikaaya.

Best wishes,
Jim

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614
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 0:19am
Subject: Re: A K Warder Exercise 7

 
    Hi Jaran, 
so glad you use Warder. See below
op 07-01-2003 16:07 schreef jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> op jjn@bruker.com:

> On page 43,
> 
> desito Aananda mayaa dhammo
N: Dhamma is taught by me, Anada. Mayaa is : by us, by me.
A pleasure to see you here. I like to encourage you, there is nothing like
reading texts in the original Pali.
Success and all the best. Do not hesitate to ask, we have experts here who
can correct, suppose I am wrong!
Nina.
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
    

 
615
From: jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> <jjn@bruker.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 1:11am
Subject: Re: A K Warder Exercise 7

 
    Hi Nina and Jim:

Thank you both for your help. I think I have found a goldmine! Warder 
is a VERY readable book, but has to be taken in very slowly. 
Sometimes I am stuck at some questions like this, and now I know 
where to ask. :-)

I am thinking of doing the exercises and ask the experts here 
to 'grade' them. I am not sure if its a good idea. What do you think?

After doing some excercises I think I can manage this Pali book. And 
I agree with you, Nina: nothing like reading the text...so far.

Have a nice day,
jaran

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Hi Jaran, 
> so glad you use Warder. See below
> op 07-01-2003 16:07 schreef jaranoh <jjn@b...> op jjn@b...:
> 
> > On page 43,
> > 
> > desito Aananda mayaa dhammo
> N: Dhamma is taught by me, Anada. Mayaa is : by us, by me.
> A pleasure to see you here. I like to encourage you, there is 
nothing like
> reading texts in the original Pali.
> Success and all the best. Do not hesitate to ask, we have experts 
here who
> can correct, suppose I am wrong!
> Nina.
 
 
616
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 10:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: A K Warder Exercise 7

 
    Hi Jaran,

> Thank you both for your help. I think I have found a goldmine! Warder
> is a VERY readable book, but has to be taken in very slowly.
> Sometimes I am stuck at some questions like this, and now I know
> where to ask. :-)
>
> I am thinking of doing the exercises and ask the experts here
> to 'grade' them. I am not sure if its a good idea. What do you think?

It might be a problem knowing how to grade your translations of the
exercises but feel free to post them anyway for corrections and comments
from any of us here. Also, don't hesitate to ask questions.

Best wishes in your studies,
Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
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617
From: jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> <jjn@bruker.com> 
Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:11am
Subject: Excercise 8

 
    Hi All:
I am using Warder 1999 reprint.

I am having some troubles with the following excercises. Please help.

3. te 'ha.m upasa.mkamitvaa eva.m vadaami
My Ans: (Lit.) By me having approached thus say. -> Having 
approached, I say thus.
(My question: Does te here function as 'ida.m/etad', but not as the 
3rd person pronoun?)

6. di.t.thaa bho satta jiivasi
My Ans: It's fortunate, sir creature live (?)
(My Question: how do you translate 'bho satta'? Does bho modify 
satta?)

7. jaya.m vera.m pasavati
He generates hatred.(what is jaya.m?)

9. eva.m bho ti
It is thus, sir.
(How do you translate this?)

11. kala.m karonto avoca
Doing time said.->Death spoke.->Death manifested.
(Who is the agent here?)

Could you also break down 'gacchaama'?

Thank you for your help.
Jaran
 
 
618
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:03pm
Subject: Re: Excercise 8

 
    Hi Jaran,

> Hi All:
> I am using Warder 1999 reprint.
>
> I am having some troubles with the following excercises. Please help.
>
> 3. te 'ha.m upasa.mkamitvaa eva.m vadaami
> My Ans: (Lit.) By me having approached thus say. -> Having
> approached, I say thus.
> (My question: Does te here function as 'ida.m/etad', but not as the
> 3rd person pronoun?)

Your 'by me' is incorrect for 'aha.m' which is just I (nom. sing.) 'te' (=
them) is the 3rd person masculine pronoun in the accusative plural (the nom.
pl. is also 'te'). It is the object of 'upasa.mkamitvaa', hence: Having
approached THEM, I say thus. This expression is found at D III 28
(Paa.tikasutta) which Rhys Davids translates freely as: To them have I gone
and said: . . . (p.25) Te is also found as the enclitic form of the second
person pronoun for the singular of the instrumental, dative, and genitive
(Warder, p.115). There are altogether 27 pronouns (sabbanaamaani) in Pali
and the base form of 'te' is 'ta'. Instead of te 'ha.m some texts show the
sandhi form: tyaaha.m.

> 6. di.t.thaa bho satta jiivasi
> My Ans: It's fortunate, sir creature live (?)
> (My Question: how do you translate 'bho satta'? Does bho modify
> satta?)

This one is tricky. It is found at D III 73 (Cakkavattisutta). Although the
reading 'satta' is seen in some Sinhalese mss., the PTS and Burmese reading
has 'sattaa'. Although 'di.t.thaa' can be an indeclinable according to
Warder and PED, I find that it could function just as well as a past
participle (nom pl.) that goes with 'sattaa' (seen are beings/creatures).
This is how I translate the sentence: Beings are seen, sir, you're alive!
But to translate according to what Warder gives one would have to go with
something like: Wonderful, sir being, you're alive! Or, to take your
translation: It's fortunate, sir creature, (that) you live. The 'satta' like
'bho' is in the vocative sing. and goes with 'bho' but 'sir creature' sounds
odd. Rhys Davids translates: Hail, O mortal, that thou livest still! (p.71)

> 7. jaya.m vera.m pasavati
> He generates hatred.(what is jaya.m?)

jaya.m is the present participle, nom. singular, of the verb jayati (to win,
defeat, conquer). Winning, he generates hatred. Rhys Davids: as winner he
begets hatred (III p. 175).

> 9. eva.m bho ti
> It is thus, sir.
> (How do you translate this?)

I think your translation might be okay depending on the context. Other
possibilities are: "so be it, sir"; "yes, sir".

> 11. kala.m karonto avoca
> Doing time said.->Death spoke.->Death manifested.
> (Who is the agent here?)

The agent is 'he' (implied by karonto and avoca). Dying, he said: ...

> Could you also break down 'gacchaama'?

gacchaama = we go (present tense, can also be the imperative). gam (verbal
root) > gacch + a (vikara.na) > aa + ma (1st person plural ending).

> Thank you for your help.
> Jaran

You're welcome.

Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
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619
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jan 11, 2003 0:36pm
Subject: Re: Excercise 8

 
    Hi Jaran,

op 10-01-2003 17:11 schreef jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> op jjn@bruker.com:
> I am using Warder 1999 reprint.
N: and I 1963 print

J: 3. te 'ha.m upasa.mkamitvaa eva.m vadaami
> My Ans: (Lit.) By me having approached thus say. -> Having
> approached, I say thus.
> (My question: Does te here function as 'ida.m/etad', but not as the
> 3rd person pronoun?)
N;: Having approached them, I speak thus
I believe: te or ete: 3rd person pl. accusative.

J: 6. di.t.thaa bho satta jiivasi
> My Ans: It's fortunate, sir creature live (?)
> (My Question: how do you translate 'bho satta'? Does bho modify
> satta?)
N: It is wonderful that you, creature, are alive.
Bho: you, and satta must be vocative: p. 113: loko, loka. > 7. jaya.m vera.m
pasavati

J: He generates hatred.(what is jaya.m?)
N: by conquering he produces (accumulates) hatred.
jaya.m is like gaccha.m, going, or gacchanto, a gerund of jayati.
This one is difficult.

J: 9. eva.m bho ti
> It is thus, sir.
> (How do you translate this?)
N: It is O.K. There is not always the word:is . and ti indicates the end of
a quote. 

J:11. kala.m karonto avoca
> Doing time said.->Death spoke.->Death manifested.
> (Who is the agent here?)
N: He spoke while he was dying.
Pronoun is frequently omitted.
J: Could you also break down 'gacchaama'?
N: let us go. 
I have as dictionary Concise Pali-English Dict. by Buddhadatta, very handy
to look things up quickly. Next to it the PED (of PTS) which gives many
references and sometimes the very examples we are looking for.
Success,
Nina.
 
 
620
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:27am
Subject: Re: Excercise 8

 
    Dear Jim and Jaran,
I appreciate the details, especially since I have gone over these myself now
once again.
Nina

op 11-01-2003 04:03 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Hi Jaran,
> 
> Your 'by me' is incorrect for 'aha.m' which is just I (nom. sing.) 'te' (=
> them) is the 3rd person masculine pronoun in the accusative plural (the nom.
> pl. is also 'te'). It is the object of 'upasa.mkamitvaa', hence: Having
> approached THEM, I say thus. This expression is found at D III 28
> (Paa.tikasutta) which Rhys Davids translates freely as: To them have I gone
> and said: . . . (p.25) Te is also found as the enclitic form of the second
> person pronoun for the singular of the instrumental, dative, and genitive
> (Warder, p.115). There are altogether 27 pronouns (sabbanaamaani) in Pali
> and the base form of 'te' is 'ta'. Instead of te 'ha.m some texts show the
> sandhi form: tyaaha.m.
 
 
621
From: sarahdhhk <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:19am
Subject: Re: Excercise 8

 
    Hi Jaran & Jim,

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
wrote:
> Dear Jim and Jaran,
> I appreciate the details, especially since I have gone over 
these myself now
> once again.
> Nina
.....
Let me echo Nina's comments - I'm also following them with 
interest - sometimes the exercises can be quite frustrating 
without the answers;-)

Keep it up!

Sarah
=====
 
 
622
From: jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> <jjn@bruker.com> 
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:43pm
Subject: Exercise 9 No 1

 
    Hi Jim and All:

I am now at exercise 9, slowly making my way through it. :-) This will
be one of many posts of many for exercise 9.

1. aya.m kho saa braama.na pa~n~na
this indeed, O priest, wisdom.

I have no idea which one is agent and what is the verb of this
sentence. :-(

The same question (about agent and verb) for this one:
2. atthi kho bho Ma.nikaa naama vijjaa
There is indeed, sir, Manikaa (who has) knowledge.

I need help on spotting a verb and the agent in this kind of sentence.

Thank you in advance.
Jaran
 
 
623
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:51pm
Subject: Re: Exercise 9 No 1

 
    Hi Jaran,

> 1. aya.m kho saa braama.na pa~n~na
> this indeed, O priest, wisdom.
>
> I have no idea which one is agent and what is the verb of this
> sentence. :-(

There is no verb here. Read p. 9 for info about sentences without verbs.
However, in translating into English, use the copula verb 'is'. This is,
indeed, O priest, wisdom. You've mispelt 'braahma.na' which could also be
translated as: O brahmin. The agent is 'saa' which is modified by 'aya.m'
for emphasis, I think.

> The same question (about agent and verb) for this one:
> 2. atthi kho bho Ma.nikaa naama vijjaa
> There is indeed, sir, Manikaa (who has) knowledge.
>
> I need help on spotting a verb and the agent in this kind of sentence.

The verb is 'atthi' (there is, exists). I think 'vijjaa' is the agent.
Ma.nikaa is not a person but the name of a science. There is indeed, sir, a
science called Ma.nikaa. See Warder's footnote. Another possible
translation: Indeed, sir, a science called Ma.nikaa does exist.

Keep it up!

Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
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624
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:21pm
Subject: Re: Exercise 9 No 1

 
    Hi again Jaran,

Shortly after posting my last message to you, I started thinking that I
could be wrong in calling 'saa' in your no. 1 the agent and the same could
be said for calling 'vijjaa' the agent in no. 2. I will have to do some
investigation to learn more about what gets the term 'agent' (kattu). This
term is one of a group of six called kaaraka-s which assist the verb. But in
the case of a sentence without a verb I wonder if there could be an agent.
Another problem exists with 'atthi' in that sometimes it is used as an
indeclinable. I'll get back to you later on this as soon as I find something
definitive. The agent is further divided into three kinds: suddhakattaa,
hetukattaa, & kammakattaa.

Best wishes,

Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
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625
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 1:20pm
Subject: Re: Exercise 9 No 1

 
    Hi Jim, 
I am vbery interested in details, but please, in your own time,
Nina
op 22-01-2003 21:21 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Hi again Jaran,
> 
> Shortly after posting my last message to you, I started thinking that I
> could be wrong in calling 'saa' in your no. 1 the agent and the same could
> be said for calling 'vijjaa' the agent in no. 2. I will have to do some
> investigation to learn more about what gets the term 'agent' (kattu). This
> term is one of a group of six called kaaraka-s which assist the verb. But in
> the case of a sentence without a verb I wonder if there could be an agent.
> Another problem exists with 'atthi' in that sometimes it is used as an
> indeclinable. I'll get back to you later on this as soon as I find something
> definitive. The agent is further divided into three kinds: suddhakattaa,
> hetukattaa, & kammakattaa.
 
 
626
From: jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> <jjn@bruker.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:13pm
Subject: Re: Exercise 9 No 1 -> 2

 
    Hi Jim (and All):

Thank you for your quick reply, and sorry for my slow response.

I always thought that an 'agent' in general is the 'subject' of verbs,
adjective, etc of a sentence. At least that is what I had in mind when
I used the word 'agent' in my last mails, but I am looking forward for
the details.

More quiestions on Excercise 9:

1. Sujaataa naama bhante upaasikaa kaalakataa ->

A lay-follower named Sujaataa, sir, has died.

I am aware that the word order is not fixed in Paali, and can this
sentence be written in the following way?

Bhante Sujaataa naama upaasikaa kaalakataa

2. evam pi kho Sunakkhatto mayaa vuccamaano apakkami ->

this also indeed Sunakkatto by me said go off ->

Hearing this from Sunakkatta, I go off.

2a. Sunakkatto is in the nominative case, so it is supposed to be 'the
agent' of the main sentence.

2b. vuccamaano (used as an adjective) agrees with Sunakkatto, so does
it mean that Sunakkatto is qualtified by vuccamaano? -> Sunakkatto is
saying.

2c. The main verb of the sentence is apakkami, so the agent that goes
off is I. -> I go off?

It is quite confusing here, could anyone clarify this for me? Thank
you in advance.

I feel hopeless. :-(

A more useful question, perhaps, regarding Paali study: am I spending
to much time on grammar and not enough on the actual message? I feel
that if I don't know enough of structure of sentence, it is impossible
for me to understand the passage.

Thanks for your help,
jaran
 
 
627
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Exercise 9 No 1 -> 2

 
    Hi Jaran,

> Thank you for your quick reply, and sorry for my slow response.

No need to apologize. Feel free to take as much time as you like -- no
need to hurry around here. :)

> I always thought that an 'agent' in general is the 'subject' of verbs,
> adjective, etc of a sentence. At least that is what I had in mind when
> I used the word 'agent' in my last mails, but I am looking forward for
> the details.

I (and also Warder, p. 14) would say that the 'agent' (kattar) is the
'subject' of an *active* verb or sentence but in the case of a *passive*
verb it is the 'patient' (kamma) that is the 'subject'. I haven't found
anything yet that clearly explains whether or not the subject of a verbless
sentence is an agent. Examples of this type are: eso sama.no = he (or this)
is a wanderer; saa pa~n~naa = this is wisdom. In my reading of p. 14, Warder
seems to be suggesting that 'eso' of 'eso sama.no' is an agent. I also
mentioned something about 'atthi' being sometimes used as an indeclinable
and have found some information about it which I will try to write more on
later. I think some examples are found in the Satipa.t.thaanasutta with
'atthi kaayo ti', etc. and notice the plural 'dhammaa' in 'atthi dhammaa ti'
with what many would consider to be a singular verb. Although the
indeclinable 'atthi' is known from Indian linguistic sources it is not
explicitly recognized as such in Warder, PED, nor CPD ie. they take it for a
verb.

> More quiestions on Excercise 9:
>
> 1. Sujaataa naama bhante upaasikaa kaalakataa ->
>
> A lay-follower named Sujaataa, sir, has died.

Correct.

> I am aware that the word order is not fixed in Paali, and can this
> sentence be written in the following way?
>
> Bhante Sujaataa naama upaasikaa kaalakataa

To my understanding (and I could be wrong) it is not normal in Pali to place
a vocative like 'bhante' at the beginning of a sentence unless it is the
only word like the 'bhikkhavo ti' in the case of the Buddha addressing the
monks. I think the placement of the 'bhante' in no. 1 is the best one.
Sujaataa and naama are too closely tied together for the 'bhante' to go in
between and the opening between upaasikaa and kaalakato is too near the end.
However in an English translation it is perfectly normal to place the 'sir'
at the beginning.

> 2. evam pi kho Sunakkhatto mayaa vuccamaano apakkami ->
>
> this also indeed Sunakkatto by me said go off ->
>
> Hearing this from Sunakkatta, I go off.

Four mistakes. eva.m = thus, so (not 'this') 'thus also indeed'. vuccamaano
is a present (passive) participle meaning 'being spoken to'. apakkami is in
the aorist (past) tense meaning 'went away or off '. Sunakkatta should be
Sunakkhatta.

Thus also, indeed, Sunakkhatta being spoken to by me went away.

> 2a. Sunakkatto is in the nominative case, so it is supposed to be 'the
> agent' of the main sentence.

Correct.

> 2b. vuccamaano (used as an adjective) agrees with Sunakkatto, so does
> it mean that Sunakkatto is qualtified by vuccamaano? -> Sunakkatto is
> saying.

Your reasoning is quite ok except (as noted above) that vuccamaano is
passive (being spoken to) and not active as you have taken it.

> 2c. The main verb of the sentence is apakkami, so the agent that goes
> off is I. -> I go off?

The agent that 'went off ' is Sunakkhatta, not I. Taking verbs like apakkami
to be in the first pers. sing. is a common one. Sometimes I make the same
mistake.

> It is quite confusing here, could anyone clarify this for me? Thank
> you in advance.

I think the confusion lies in that there are two agents in the sentence.
First, there is the agent of the main verb (Sunakkhatto . . . apakkami) and
then there is the agent (in the instrumental) of the participle (mayaa
vuccamaano) and to make matters more confusing Sunakkhatta is the patient or
object of the participle. I looked up the reference (D III 6) given at the
back of the book and found the sentence has been clipped for the exercise.
The full sentence is:

evam pi kho Bhaggava Sunakkhatto Licchavi-putto mayaa vuccamaano apakkam'eva
imasmaa dhamma-vinayaa yathaa ta.m apaayiko nerayiko. -- PTS version.

Since the verb apakkami like upasa.mkami is derived from the root KAM -- to
walk, I can't see why one couldn't translate apakkami as '(he) walked away'.
". . . Sunakkhatta . . . just walked away from this doctrine and discipline
. . ."

> I feel hopeless. :-(

Don't give up! You're doing fine.

> A more useful question, perhaps, regarding Paali study: am I spending
> to much time on grammar and not enough on the actual message? I feel
> that if I don't know enough of structure of sentence, it is impossible
> for me to understand the passage.

From my own experience, I think any amount of time spent on studying the
Pali grammar (and the language) is well spent and I agree with you that it
is virtually impossible to understand the passages one wants to be able to
read without any knowledge of the sentence structure or syntax.

All the best in your studies,

Jim

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628
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue May 13, 2003 10:51pm
Subject: news update

 
    Dear members,

I have been thinking of making some changes pertaining to the scope of
this mailing list which has been silent these past 3 months largely
because of my own silence. Much of the activity of studying Pali has
shifted over to the other much larger Pali list operated by Yong Peng
with about 250 members in which a few of us have been participating.
It sort of makes this list somewhat redundant. However, I've been
thinking that this list could take on a new role in focussing
primarily on studying the old grammatical texts written in Pali. This
is an area that has long been of interest to me and some of you as
well and this might be a good opportunity to take up this kind of
study together. As some of you may remember, when this list first got
started more than two years ago we did study a few suttas from the
Saddaniti.

Everyone here is welcome to stay on, but if any of you find this
change of focus not to your liking, please feel free to unsubscribe or
set your account to 'no mail'. Pali grammar can be a really boring
subject for some. I'm also thinking of posting an invitation to those
on Yong Peng's list who might be interested in joining us in our
grammatical studies. I recommend the Pali list for anyone here as it
has a lot to offer.

I have revised the description on the group's home page as follows:

"The Pali Study Group was founded on February 2, 2001 by Jim Anderson
for the purpose of studying the Pali language and its texts.
Currently, the main focus is on the study of a number of grammatical
texts written in Pali, such as Aggavamsa's Saddaniti, a 12th century
treatise written in Myanmar. This group is open to all who are
interested. If you are interested in subscribing or would like more
information, please contact the list owner."

I think a good approach to start off with would be to jump around
different grammatical texts and study little bits here and there to
get the feel of these amazing texts which have a lot of useful
information about the Pali language that we can all learn from. These
texts often quote from the Tipitaka and their commentaries so we'll
still be keeping in touch with them by studying these quotes.

Best wishes,

Jim
 
 
629
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed May 14, 2003 10:13pm
Subject: quoting & copyright

 
    "Grammars may be considered the absolute fringe of literature.
Nevertheless, they go straight to the core of language -- the medium
in which literature is presented -- and reveal a great deal about what
those who wrote them thought about their own language, about language
in general, and about their literature." -- E.G. Kahrs, Exploring the
Saddaniiti, JPTS XVII 1992, p. 1

Dear group,

On April 4, I received the following response from Dr. Rupert Gethin,
Hon. Secretary of the Pali Text Society, regarding my query about
quoting long passages from PTS publications and copyright. I thought
it may be of some interest to you. The article he refers to is the one
by K.R. Norman in JPTS XII.

"In my view quoting from the article in the context of an on-line
discussion forum -- even to the
extent of quoting the whole chunk on apilapati -- does not infringe
PTS copyright and does not require formal permission. The section on
apilapati is only about 15% of the whole; the quotation is for
legitimate scholarly discussion. If the whole article was in effect
published on a website, then that would require formal permission.
Hope this helps." -- Rupert Gethin

Best wishes,

Jim
 
 
630
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 15, 2003 0:31pm
Subject: Re: news update

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear members,
> 
> I have been thinking of making some changes pertaining to the scope of
> this mailing list which has been silent these past 3 months largely
> because of my own silence. Much of the activity of studying Pali has
> shifted over to the other much larger Pali list operated by Yong Peng
> with about 250 members in which a few of us have been participating.
> It sort of makes this list somewhat redundant. However, I've been
> thinking that this list could take on a new role in focussing
> primarily on studying the old grammatical texts written in Pali. This
> is an area that has long been of interest to me and some of you as
> well and this might be a good opportunity to take up this kind of
> study together. As some of you may remember, when this list first got
> started more than two years ago we did study a few suttas from the
> Saddaniti.
> 
> Everyone here is welcome to stay on, but if any of you find this
> change of focus not to your liking, please feel free to unsubscribe or
> set your account to 'no mail'. Pali grammar can be a really boring
> subject for some. I'm also thinking of posting an invitation to those
> on Yong Peng's list who might be interested in joining us in our
> grammatical studies. I recommend the Pali list for anyone here as it
> has a lot to offer.
> 
> I have revised the description on the group's home page as follows:
> 
> "The Pali Study Group was founded on February 2, 2001 by Jim Anderson
> for the purpose of studying the Pali language and its texts.
> Currently, the main focus is on the study of a number of grammatical
> texts written in Pali, such as Aggavamsa's Saddaniti, a 12th century
> treatise written in Myanmar. This group is open to all who are
> interested. If you are interested in subscribing or would like more
> information, please contact the list owner."
> 
> I think a good approach to start off with would be to jump around
> different grammatical texts and study little bits here and there to
> get the feel of these amazing texts which have a lot of useful
> information about the Pali language that we can all learn from. These
> texts often quote from the Tipitaka and their commentaries so we'll
> still be keeping in touch with them by studying these quotes.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Jim


Hi,

I would be grateful for any chance to improve my shallow Pali
knowledge, thank you, Jim,

Amara
 
 
631
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 15, 2003 0:39pm
Subject: Re: quoting & copyright

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> "Grammars may be considered the absolute fringe of literature.
> Nevertheless, they go straight to the core of language -- the medium
> in which literature is presented -- and reveal a great deal about what
> those who wrote them thought about their own language, about language
> in general, and about their literature." -- E.G. Kahrs, Exploring the
> Saddaniiti, JPTS XVII 1992, p. 1
> 
> Dear group,
> 
> On April 4, I received the following response from Dr. Rupert Gethin,
> Hon. Secretary of the Pali Text Society, regarding my query about
> quoting long passages from PTS publications and copyright. I thought
> it may be of some interest to you. The article he refers to is the one
> by K.R. Norman in JPTS XII.
> 
> "In my view quoting from the article in the context of an on-line
> discussion forum -- even to the
> extent of quoting the whole chunk on apilapati -- does not infringe
> PTS copyright and does not require formal permission. The section on
> apilapati is only about 15% of the whole; the quotation is for
> legitimate scholarly discussion. If the whole article was in effect
> published on a website, then that would require formal permission.
> Hope this helps." -- Rupert Gethin
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Jim


Hi again,

Thank you for this, it's very useful to know especially for my website,

Amara
 
 
632
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 17, 2003 2:36pm
Subject: kaccaayana-nyaaso (to Teng Kee)

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

A good way to track down Pali grammars is checking out the online
catalogues of major libraries especially those of universities. I
found the existence of a relatively new Indian publication of the
Nyaasa which is likely to be in the Devanagari script which I can
read. Here's the info from the University of Toronto catalogue:

Local LC call number: PK 1017 .V5 1991X ROBA 1 v.1
Personal Author: Vimabuddhi, Thera.
Title: Kacc*ayana-ny*aso / Vimalabuddhittherena viracito ;
samp*adaka Bhik*su Satyap*ala.
Edition: 1. sa*mskara*na.
Publication info: New Delhi : Buddha Triratna Misana, 1991-
Physical descrip: v. <1 > ; 25 cm.
Series: (P*ali-puppha-m*al*a ; 1. puppham)
General Note: In Pali; critical introd. in English.
General Note: Added t.p. in English.
General Note: Includes indexes.
Summary: Commentary on Kacc*ayanayoga, work on Pali grammar.
ISBN: Rs300.00 (v. 1)
Subject: Pali language--Grammar.
Added author: Satyap*ala, Bhik*su.
Series: P*alipuppham*al*a ; 1. puppha*m.

Best wishes,

Jim
 
 
633
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue May 20, 2003 11:20am
Subject: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Group,

For the past few days I've been doing some background research on the
traditional Pali grammars. I have been particularly interested in the
problem of who was the Kaccayana that wrote the famous grammar. I
think most, if not all, of the modern scholars trained in Western
methodologies consider this grammar to have come into existence
sometime after Buddhaghosa, perhaps around the 7th-8th cent. CE. If
one accepts this, then one would have to rule out Mahaakaccaayana, the
Buddha's great disciple, as its author -- leaving one to think that
this must be the work of a later Kaccayana. However, I have done some
investigation and found that, according to the Theravada tradition,
the author of the grammar is indeed the great Kaccayana who lived at
the time of the Buddha. According to Buddhaghosa's commentary on the
Apadana, Mahaakaccaana (another spelling) expounded the
Kaccaayanappakara.na, Mahaaniruttippakara.na, and the Nettippakara.na
in the midst of the assembly and this led the Buddha to declare him
foremost in analyzing in detail what is spoken in brief (see the quote
below). In the Cullaganthava.msa (small book history), a late text
written in Burma by Nandapa~n~na, six books are ascribed to
Mahaakaccaayana which include the same above three plus the following
three additional books: cullaniruttigantha, pe.takopadesagantha, and
va.n.naniitigantha. According to this history, all the arahants who
were at the rehearsals of the three famous councils are given the
designation of poraa.nas as well as a.t.thakathaacariyas, except
Mahaakaccaayana, who is unique in being designated a one of a kind
tividhanaamakaacariya. The aacariyas (such as Buddhaghosa) who follow
and wrote important works are designated ganthakaarakaacariyas. Their
names (but many are anonymous) and their works are listed in this very
interesting little history. I did a rough count and came up with 116
authors. Also the Saddaniiti very frequently mentions and quotes from
a work called the Niruttipi.taka (which may be the same as the
Mahaanirutti) and ascribes the Mahaakaccaayana as its author.

Here's the Apadaana commentary quote:

Attano pubbapatthanaavasena kaccaayanappakara.na.m
mahaaniruttippakara.na.m nettippakara.nanti pakara.nattaya.m
sa"nghamajjhe byaakaasi. Atha santu.t.thena bhagavataa etadagga.m,
bhikkhave, mama saavakaana.m sa"nkhittena bhaasitassa vitthaarena
attha.m vibhajantaana.m yadida.m mahaakaccaanoti (a. ni. 1.188, 197)
etadagga-.t.thaane .thapito aggaphalasukhena vihaasiiti. Ap-a 491

In our study of grammatical suttas, I have chosen the first one from
Kaccayana's grammar for which I will be providing further material
later on. Here's the sutta:

1. attho akkharasa~n~naato. (ie. the meaning is correctly understood
through the letters)

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
634
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 0:14am
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much, this is most interesting and I shall print it out to
keep it. 
In my preface to the Guide they say, tradition says... MahaaKaccayana, but
modern scholars reject this. But these scholars have not read the Co to the
Apadana, I think. 
I wonder whether you could forward this to Pali Yahoo, since it is important
material about the tradition.
Nina. 

op 20-05-2003 17:20 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
However, I have done some
> investigation and found that, according to the Theravada tradition,
> the author of the grammar is indeed the great Kaccayana who lived at
> the time of the Buddha. According to Buddhaghosa's commentary on the
> Apadana, Mahaakaccaana (another spelling) expounded the
> Kaccaayanappakara.na, Mahaaniruttippakara.na, and the Nettippakara.na
> in the midst of the assembly and this led the Buddha to declare him
> foremost in analyzing in detail what is spoken in brief (see the quote
> below).
 
 
635
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 2:36am
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> For the past few days I've been doing some background research on the
> traditional Pali grammars. I have been particularly interested in the
> problem of who was the Kaccayana that wrote the famous grammar. I
> think most, if not all, of the modern scholars trained in Western
> methodologies consider this grammar to have come into existence
> sometime after Buddhaghosa, perhaps around the 7th-8th cent. CE. If
> one accepts this, then one would have to rule out Mahaakaccaayana, the
> Buddha's great disciple, as its author -- leaving one to think that
> this must be the work of a later Kaccayana. However, I have done some
> investigation and found that, according to the Theravada tradition,
> the author of the grammar is indeed the great Kaccayana who lived at
> the time of the Buddha. According to Buddhaghosa's commentary on the
> Apadana, Mahaakaccaana (another spelling) expounded the
> Kaccaayanappakara.na, Mahaaniruttippakara.na, and the Nettippakara.na
> in the midst of the assembly and this led the Buddha to declare him
> foremost in analyzing in detail what is spoken in brief (see the quote
> below). In the Cullaganthava.msa (small book history), a late text
> written in Burma by Nandapa~n~na, six books are ascribed to
> Mahaakaccaayana which include the same above three plus the following
> three additional books: cullaniruttigantha, pe.takopadesagantha, and
> va.n.naniitigantha. According to this history, all the arahants who
> were at the rehearsals of the three famous councils are given the
> designation of poraa.nas as well as a.t.thakathaacariyas, except
> Mahaakaccaayana, who is unique in being designated a one of a kind
> tividhanaamakaacariya. The aacariyas (such as Buddhaghosa) who follow
> and wrote important works are designated ganthakaarakaacariyas. Their
> names (but many are anonymous) and their works are listed in this very
> interesting little history. I did a rough count and came up with 116
> authors. Also the Saddaniiti very frequently mentions and quotes from
> a work called the Niruttipi.taka (which may be the same as the
> Mahaanirutti) and ascribes the Mahaakaccaayana as its author.
> 
> Here's the Apadaana commentary quote:
> 
> Attano pubbapatthanaavasena kaccaayanappakara.na.m
> mahaaniruttippakara.na.m nettippakara.nanti pakara.nattaya.m
> sa"nghamajjhe byaakaasi. Atha santu.t.thena bhagavataa ?etadagga.m,
> bhikkhave, mama saavakaana.m sa"nkhittena bhaasitassa vitthaarena
> attha.m vibhajantaana.m yadida.m mahaakaccaano?ti (a. ni. 1.188, 197)
> etadagga-.t.thaane .thapito aggaphalasukhena vihaasiiti. Ap-a 491
> 
> In our study of grammatical suttas, I have chosen the first one from
> Kaccayana's grammar for which I will be providing further material
> later on. Here's the sutta:
> 
> 1. attho akkharasa~n~naato. (ie. the meaning is correctly understood
> through the letters)
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you very much for this, I find it very interesting that the
great Bhikkhu who was etadagga in expounding in detail the dhamma
manifested in brief was also the one who recorded the linguistic rules
pertaining to the language used. Could you perhaps tell us a little
more about Mahaakaccaayana; for example in the Dictionary of Pali
Proper Names, was he etadagga in other fields? I seem to remember
that some great disciples were foremost in more than one area of
excellence. Did it happen to mention when his parinibbana was, and at
what age?

Thank you very much in advance,

Amara
 
 
636
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 11:47am
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim,
> Thank you very much, this is most interesting and I shall print it
out to> keep it.

Thank-you for expressing your interest.

> In my preface to the Guide they say, tradition says...
MahaaKaccayana, but
> modern scholars reject this. But these scholars have not read the Co
to the
> Apadana, I think.

They do know about this, and in fact, it was in a scholarly article by
O. Pind that I learned about the reference to Apadana Co. I've only
started to read this long article but it seems to be an argument
against the tradition in favour of a post-Buddhaghosa dating for
Kaccayana's grammar. The article is entitled: Studies in the Pali
Grammarians I, pp. 33-81, JPTS XIII 1989. On the first page he writes:
"Perhaps it dates from the 7th-8th century A.D. since it is not
referred to in any of the a.t.thakathaas except for Ap-a, a fairly
late commentary. It is there ascribed to Kaccaayana along with the
Mahaanirutti and Nett." p. 33. Also, on the last page of the article
he writes: "To conclude, it is highly unlikely that Buddhaghosa, whose
respectful attitude towards the tradition is beyond doubt, would have
failed to refer to such a work, had it been in existence." p. 81. Yet,
according to the tradition, the Apadaana commentary is ascribed to
Buddhaghosa, a fact which also flies in the face of modern
scholarship. I plan to study his article further and see how
persuasive his arguments are. I think modern scholars are generally
sceptical about the claims of a tradition.

> I wonder whether you could forward this to Pali Yahoo, since it is
important > material about the tradition.
> Nina.

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea for me to forward it.
Personally, I have a thing against cross-posting. However, you're
welcome to do so if you like. You or anyone else here have my
permission to quote me or use my material in other groups. While you
were away I posted an announcement to Yong Peng's Pali group informing
them about the traditional grammatical studies that would start in
this group and inviting anyone interested to join. Only Steve
(Bodhi2500) and Yong Peng have signed up so far. It seems that there
isn't a whole of interest out there, but maybe it just needs a lot of
time to grow.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
637
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 10:43am
Subject: Re: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Amara,

I think you can learn more about Mahakaccana by reading Bhikkhu
Bodhi's essay entitled:

Maha Kaccana: Master of Doctrinal Exposition
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel405.html

I don't know that much about him myself and I have yet to read the
article which is also posted on Abhidhamma.org. One could spend a lot
of time researching the Pali texts for more information. I did check
Malalasekara's entry on him but didn't find anything there about age
or the circumstances surrounding his parinibbana. That doesn't
necessarily mean to say there is nothing on this in the texts. I think
he may only have just the one etadagga distinction. I'll let you know
if I ever come across anything new. I'd like to make Mahaakaccaayana
the patron saint of this group.

Best wishes,

Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> Thank you very much for this, I find it very interesting that the
> great Bhikkhu who was etadagga in expounding in detail the dhamma
> manifested in brief was also the one who recorded the linguistic
rules
> pertaining to the language used. Could you perhaps tell us a little
> more about Mahaakaccaayana; for example in the Dictionary of Pali
> Proper Names, was he etadagga in other fields? I seem to remember
> that some great disciples were foremost in more than one area of
> excellence. Did it happen to mention when his parinibbana was, and
at
> what age?
>
> Thank you very much in advance,
>
> Amara
>
 
 
638
From: Nantawat Sitdhiraksa <sinsk@mahidol.ac.th> 
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 10:47pm
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Jim, and all group member,

I have a Pali book (in Thai) written by Supapan Na Bangchang. In the
introduction, she mentioned briefly about the history and the controversy
between the 3 major school of Pali grammar; the kaccayana, the moggallana,
and the saddaniti. She gave a long list of references from English, Thai,
and Burmese literatures

For Kaccayana, she summarized 3 main ideas regarding its origin.

1) It was all written by Ven.Kaccayana during the Buddha time. The Buddha
gave a brief direction and katha, then Ven.Kaccayana wrote the book from the
guideline of the Buddhas teaching. She refered to Suttanidesa and
Apadanaatthakatha, which mentioned about background of Ven.Kaccayana. In the
Ganthavongsa, written by Ven.Pannananda of Burma said that Ven.Kaccayana
wrote 6 books, kaccayanagantha, mahaniruttigantha, culaniruttigantha,
nettigantha, patakopadesagantha, and vannanitigantha.

2) Only some parts of the kaccayana grammar were written by Ven.Kaccayana.
The main points were written by Ven.Kaccayana but the commentary and example
were added in later. She gave reference from The Pali literature of Ceylon,
and Dict. of Pali Proper Name.


3) It was written later Ven.Kaccayana. She listed 3 reasons supporting this
idea. The main points are there are some completely opposite ideas between
the Kaccayana and Moggallana, and the Saddaniti. Another supporting evidence
is some examples in the text mentioned about some incidents much later then
the Buddha time.

With appreciation.
Have to run.

Num

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 10:20 PM
Subject: [palistudy] kaccaayanappakara.na


> Dear Group,
>
> For the past few days I've been doing some background research on the
> traditional Pali grammars. I have been particularly interested in the
> problem of who was the Kaccayana that wrote the famous grammar. I
> think most, if not all, of the modern scholars trained in Western
> methodologies consider this grammar to have come into existence
> sometime after Buddhaghosa, perhaps around the 7th-8th cent. CE. If
> one accepts this, then one would have to rule out Mahaakaccaayana, the
> Buddha's great disciple, as its author -- leaving one to think that
> this must be the work of a later Kaccayana. However, I have done some
> investigation and found that, according to the Theravada tradition,
> the author of the grammar is indeed the great Kaccayana who lived at
> the time of the Buddha. According to Buddhaghosa's commentary on the
> Apadana, Mahaakaccaana (another spelling) expounded the
> Kaccaayanappakara.na, Mahaaniruttippakara.na, and the Nettippakara.na
> in the midst of the assembly and this led the Buddha to declare him
> foremost in analyzing in detail what is spoken in brief (see the quote
> below). In the Cullaganthava.msa (small book history), a late text
> written in Burma by Nandapa~n~na, six books are ascribed to
> Mahaakaccaayana which include the same above three plus the following
> three additional books: cullaniruttigantha, pe.takopadesagantha, and
> va.n.naniitigantha. According to this history, all the arahants who
> were at the rehearsals of the three famous councils are given the
> designation of poraa.nas as well as a.t.thakathaacariyas, except
> Mahaakaccaayana, who is unique in being designated a one of a kind
> tividhanaamakaacariya. The aacariyas (such as Buddhaghosa) who follow
> and wrote important works are designated ganthakaarakaacariyas. Their
> names (but many are anonymous) and their works are listed in this very
> interesting little history. I did a rough count and came up with 116
> authors. Also the Saddaniiti very frequently mentions and quotes from
> a work called the Niruttipi.taka (which may be the same as the
> Mahaanirutti) and ascribes the Mahaakaccaayana as its author.
>
> Here's the Apadaana commentary quote:
>
> Attano pubbapatthanaavasena kaccaayanappakara.na.m
> mahaaniruttippakara.na.m nettippakara.nanti pakara.nattaya.m
> sa"nghamajjhe byaakaasi. Atha santu.t.thena bhagavataa etadagga.m,
> bhikkhave, mama saavakaana.m sa"nkhittena bhaasitassa vitthaarena
> attha.m vibhajantaana.m yadida.m mahaakaccaanoti (a. ni. 1.188, 197)
> etadagga-.t.thaane .thapito aggaphalasukhena vihaasiiti. Ap-a 491
>
> In our study of grammatical suttas, I have chosen the first one from
> Kaccayana's grammar for which I will be providing further material
> later on. Here's the sutta:
>
> 1. attho akkharasa~n~naato. (ie. the meaning is correctly understood
> through the letters)
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
 
 
639
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 22, 2003 10:31am
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Num,

Thank-you for this valuable contribution. I'll add something to your
number 2:

<< 2) Only some parts of the kaccayana grammar were written by
Ven.Kaccayana. The main points were written by Ven.Kaccayana but the
commentary and example were added in later. She gave reference from
The Pali literature of Ceylon, and Dict. of Pali Proper Name. >>

I will quote in full the article on Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na in the DPPN
which also refers to PLC for more details:

"Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na. -- A treatise on Pali grammar by
Kaccaayana. The treatise is in eight divisions, each division
comprising suttas or rules, expressed with great brevity; vutti or
supplements, to render the suttas intelligible; payoga or grammatical
analyses, with examples; and nyaasa or scholia, explanatory notes of
the principal grammatical forms in the shape of questions and answers.
The nyaasa often exists as a separate book, called the
Mukhamattadiipanii. Orthodox tradition ascribes the whole work to
Mahaa Kaccaaana, but another tradition, recorded in the
Kaccaayanabheda, states that the aphorisms [suttas -ja] are by
Kaccaayana, the vutti by Sa"nghanandii, the illustrations by
Brahmadatta and the nyaasa by Vimalabuddhi -- all perhaps belonging
to the same school of Avanti (see above, s.v. Kaccaana).
Kaccaayana's work shows clearly the influence of Sanskrit grammar,
chiefly the Kaatantra. Many later works were written about the
Kaccaayana (as it is called) or were based on it, the chief among them
being the Ruupasiddhi, the Kaccaayanabheda, the Kaccaayanasaara and
the Kaccaayanava.n.nanaa (q.v.). [1]

[1] For details see P.L.C. 179ff; Bode, 21."

In our studies of Kaccayana we will also be studying the Ruupasiddhi
and its .tiikaa. I would like to study all the three schools as I
think there is much to learn from as many grammatical works as we can
get a hold of. We can compare and take note of their similarities and
differences. There are also a lot of similarities between the Pali and
the Sanskrit grammars as well. I have long considred the Pali grammars
to be modelled on the earlier Sanskrit ones. But if is true that
Kaccayana's grammar (at least at least in the case of the short
suttas) originated much earlier with the great Kaccayana then we might
have to consider that it might be the other around with some of the
Sanskrit grammars being influenced by Kaccaayana's.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
640
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 22, 2003 11:37am
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Hi, Jim and Num,

Thank you for the great link, Jim, it is interesting to see that the
older and newer commentaries sometimes contradict in details of events
and not on the main dhamma teachings [or do they?] As usual I have
preferences for the older texts though, even in this story, where of
the two versions I prefer the one with the young man's resolution
after a week of merit making rather than one with the flying recluse.

Thank you Num for the Thai version of the history of the three major
Pali grammars. BTW what is the title of Supapan Na Bangchang's book,
do you remember? It is also interesting that the Kaccayana alone
there are three possible sources. Personally I find it appealing to
think that the etadagga in expounding the details might be as
meticulous with the grammar, and naturally have a [major] part in the
establishing linguistic rules or the description of how Pali works. I
would think it normal for there to be later additions and examples as
well. Of course it would have been unquestionable if the Buddha had
said that he was etadagga in the field of languages as well detailed
explanations; as it is this remains only my speculations.

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
641
From: robert kirkpatrick <rjkjp1@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu May 22, 2003 5:55pm
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
I have long considred
> the Pali grammars
> to be modelled on the earlier Sanskrit ones. But if
> is true that
> Kaccayana's grammar (at least at least in the case
> of the short
> suttas) originated much earlier with the great
> Kaccayana then we might
> have to consider that it might be the other around
> with some of the
> Sanskrit grammars being influenced by Kaccaayana's.
> 
> ___________
I think this is possible Jim.
Sanskrit Scholars believe sankrit older than Pali
-This is not so but the belief distorts aspects of
such studies.
Robert
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>
 
 
642
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu May 22, 2003 10:30pm
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Hi Robert,

It's possible that Kaccayana's grammar could be earlier than the
earliest extant Sanskrit grammar by Panini. Scholars differ on the
dating of Panini, somewhere in the range of the 8th to the 4th century
BCE. M. Winternitz in his History of Indian Literature, Vol. III, pt
II, favours the 5th century BCE. It is interesting that the next
important Sanskrit grammarian after Panini is Kaatyaayana (a Skt.
spelling of Kaccaayana). Winternitz who dates Kaccayana after the 5th
century CE says that he (Kaccayana) ". . .does not derive Pali from
Sanskrit, but treats it as an independent language, . . ." -- p. 451.
I know where you're coming from on Pali being the oldest language (the
muulabhaasa or root language).

Jim

> > ___________
> I think this is possible Jim.
> Sanskrit Scholars believe sankrit older than Pali
> -This is not so but the belief distorts aspects of
> such studies.
> Robert
 
 
643
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 23, 2003 7:04am
Subject: Re: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    Dear Amara,You can get Suphaphan 's book in mahamakut bookstore for 500 Baht called vyakarana pali.

Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Jim and Num,

Thank you for the great link, Jim, it is interesting to see that the
older and newer commentaries sometimes contradict in details of events
and not on the main dhamma teachings [or do they?] As usual I have
preferences for the older texts though, even in this story, where of
the two versions I prefer the one with the young man's resolution
after a week of merit making rather than one with the flying recluse.

Thank you Num for the Thai version of the history of the three major
Pali grammars. BTW what is the title of Supapan Na Bangchang's book,
do you remember? It is also interesting that the Kaccayana alone
there are three possible sources. Personally I find it appealing to
think that the etadagga in expounding the details might be as
meticulous with the grammar, and naturally have a [major] part in the
establishing linguistic rules or the description of how Pali works. I
would think it normal for there to be later additions and examples as
well. Of course it would have been unquestionable if the Buddha had
said that he was etadagga in the field of languages as well detailed
explanations; as it is this remains only my speculations.

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
644
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri May 23, 2003 9:09am
Subject: Re: kaccaayanappakara.na

 
    --- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,You can get Suphaphan 's book in mahamakut bookstore for
500 Baht called vyakarana pali.


Hi, 

Thanks for this, I will look for it next time I'm in the area. 

Thank you again,

Amara


645
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat May 24, 2003 11:13am
Subject: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Dear group,

I will be going away for about five days starting Monday during which
time I won't be sending any email messages. I must say that I'm really
keen on studying these old Pali grammatical texts and I hope to
contribute considerably towards this as time goes on. I've been
thinking of how best to go about presenting the subject to this group.
At this early stage I think it might be best for me to go about
studying it on my own and periodically posting and sharing the results
of my studies as they become available. I won't be giving any
assignments and all of you are quite at liberty to treat this list
like you would a magazine subscription. However, if interested, you
are certainly very welcome to participate in this study by asking
questions, adding comments, offering suggestions, and also taking up
the study yourself and offering contributions just as I intend to do
myself.

Many of the grammatical texts available on the CSCD disk and from SLTP
are not in the best shape and in order to ensure the accuracy of the
texts I have to go through the ones I have and look for obvious typos
and render the text suitable for email use. For the
Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na and Buddhappiya's Ruupasiddhi, I have three
editions with which to compare. I believe that one of the best ways to
learn a grammatical text is to memorize the suttas or short aphorisms
at the very least. Unfortunately, this is not a standard approach for
most Westerners (who also don't usually like grammar either). Without
knowing a grammar really well it is very hard to find one's way around
and locate a specific sutta that applies to your grammatical question
without the aid of indices and tables which are not available online.
Effort can be made in the preparation of such indices and tables for
this group. I got started on listing the kit (pimary) affixes in
Kaccayana -- similar to the one I made for the Saddaniti. I can think
of all kinds of study projects to help us better understand and work
with these remarkable texts. Kaccayana's grammar contains 673 suttas
divided into 23 ka.n.das. The main divisions are: sandhikappo,
naamakappo (which includes syntax, compounds, and taddhita affixes),
aakhyaatakappo (verbs), and kibbidhaanakappo (primary affixes). More
to come...

Jim
 
 
646
From: jaranoh <jjn@bruker.com> 
Date: Mon May 26, 2003 4:03am
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Hi Jim:

I have talked briefly with Piya Tan in Singapore. He also said that 
CSCD has a lot of errors. Based on FAQ on VRI website, it contains 
about 2% error.

When you say grammatical texts, are you referring to the Scriptures 
or the accompanying 'Pali Primer' in Help section? If it is the 
former, how do you mean: wrong declension, tense, conjugations ..etc? 
I have been using CSCD for my Pali self-study with Warder. Should I 
continue to us it or find another source.

Best Regards,
jaran


> 
> Many of the grammatical texts available on the CSCD disk and from 
SLTP
> are not in the best shape and in order to ensure the accuracy of the
> texts I have to go through the ones I have and look for obvious 
typos
> and render the text suitable for email use. For the
> Kaccaayana-vyaakara.na and Buddhappiya's Ruupasiddhi, I have three
> editions with which to compare. I believe that one of the best ways 
to
> learn a grammatical text is to memorize the suttas or short 
aphorisms
> at the very least. Unfortunately, this is not a standard approach 
for
> most Westerners (who also don't usually like grammar either). 
Without
> knowing a grammar really well it is very hard to find one's way 
around
> and locate a specific sutta that applies to your grammatical 
question
> without the aid of indices and tables which are not available 
online.
> Effort can be made in the preparation of such indices and tables for
> this group. I got started on listing the kit (pimary) affixes in
> Kaccayana -- similar to the one I made for the Saddaniti. I can 
think
> of all kinds of study projects to help us better understand and work
> with these remarkable texts. Kaccayana's grammar contains 673 suttas
> divided into 23 ka.n.das. The main divisions are: sandhikappo,
> naamakappo (which includes syntax, compounds, and taddhita affixes),
> aakhyaatakappo (verbs), and kibbidhaanakappo (primary affixes). More
> to come...
> 
> Jim
 
 
647
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon May 26, 2003 7:38am
Subject: Re: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Hi Jaran,

This is just a quick response as I'm about to go away for five days.
By the grammatical texts on the CSCD I'm referring to the ones written
entirely in Pali and not da Silva's Pali Primer. I have gone over
about the first 120 of Kaccayana's grammatical suttas comparing the
Burmese version on the CSCD with the Sinhalese one from SLTP and have
found fewer errors for the Burmese one which I consider to be more
accurate. But the Sinhalese version can still be useful as it contains
2 extra suttas and there were several cases where it had correctly
spelled a word the Burmese had mispelt. Yes, by all means,
continue to use the CSCD disk as I find it to be fairly reliable. The
Tipitaka and its commentaries tend to be in better condition than the
remaining Pali texts on the disk. The kind of errors I'm referring to
are generally ones made by typists who may not have too good a
knowledge of Pali.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi Jim:
>
> I have talked briefly with Piya Tan in Singapore. He also said that
> CSCD has a lot of errors. Based on FAQ on VRI website, it contains
> about 2% error.
>
> When you say grammatical texts, are you referring to the Scriptures
> or the accompanying 'Pali Primer' in Help section? If it is the
> former, how do you mean: wrong declension, tense, conjugations
..etc?
> I have been using CSCD for my Pali self-study with Warder. Should I
> continue to us it or find another source.
>
> Best Regards,
> jaran
 
 
648
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 1:07pm
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Dear Jim,

op 24-05-2003 17:13 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I believe that one of the best ways to
> learn a grammatical text is to memorize the suttas or short aphorisms
> at the very least. Unfortunately, this is not a standard approach for
> most Westerners .....
N: . I am all for the good old traditional method of memorizing.
J: I can think
> of all kinds of study projects to help us better understand and work
> with these remarkable texts.
N: What kinds of study projects, I am interested.
Thank you for all the trouble,
Nina.
 
 
649
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 9:55pm
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Dear Nina,

> > I believe that one of the best ways to
> > learn a grammatical text is to memorize the suttas or short
aphorisms
> > at the very least. Unfortunately, this is not a standard approach
for
> > most Westerners .....
> N: . I am all for the good old traditional method of memorizing.
> J: I can think
> > of all kinds of study projects to help us better understand and
work
> > with these remarkable texts.
> N: What kinds of study projects, I am interested.
> Thank you for all the trouble,
> Nina.

Two weeks have passed by since I last wrote the above and I'm afraid
I've forgotten exactly what it was I had in mind at the time. It often
happens that when I've been away for any length of time it takes me a
while to get back to where I left off. Lately, I've been struggling
with the formidable size of my library and wondering why in the world
I had to accumulate so many books over the years. Now I'm slaving like
a librarian in an attempt to catalogue them!

I intend to resume the study of the grammar texts soon and hope to
post some passages for study as soon as I'm satisfied with the quality
of the readings. I'm thinking that Kaccayana's grammar would be a good
choice of a basic text to start from and since the rules usually have
their counterparts in the other grammars such as the Rupasiddhi and
the Saddaniti, a comparative study can happen at the same time. These
extra texts will also provide additional comments on the rules. If you
like, I can present the material in such a way as to give you the
opportunity to do some translation work before I weigh in with my
interpretations. Just let me know as I'm not sure how you feel about
working with grammatical texts whose technical language and style
may be very different from what you're used to. I think you will like
Buddhappiya's .tiikaa on the Rupasiddhi. I saw an interesting
derivation there of attha from the root ar (tattha ariiyati
~naayatiiti attho).

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
650
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 7, 2003 1:14pm
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Dear Jim,
I delayed reacting, I was also away for a few days.
I am becoming curious about attha.
I am not able to take on more translation work, since I am now going back to
the beginning of Rahula Com. and doing a line by line transl. for Pali list.
Struggling with all those upamas! I am also writing on the outcome of my
research on pariyada, your list of references.
I am looking forward to your writing on the Kaccayana grammar,
Best wishes, 
Nina. 
op 07-06-2003 03:55 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I intend to resume the study of the grammar texts soon and hope to
> post some passages for study.
 
 
651
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 7, 2003 10:18am
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Hi, Jim:
It would be nice for everybody if you (a) cite rules, (b) give their
translations and then (c) explain the significance of these rules.
Because, mere tranlation of of these rules doesn't make much sense for
most of us, given the fact that these rules themselves are highly codified and
abstract.
tadao
 
 
652
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 7, 2003 9:02pm
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim,
> I delayed reacting, I was also away for a few days.
> I am becoming curious about attha.

There will be more on attha later when the word comes up again in the
first rule. The word is also derived from two other roots: atth &
as -- as well as ar (which is also the root of ariya and utu).

> I am not able to take on more translation work, since I am now going
back to
> the beginning of Rahula Com. and doing a line by line transl. for
Pali list.
> Struggling with all those upamas! I am also writing on the outcome
of my
> research on pariyada, your list of references.
> I am looking forward to your writing on the Kaccayana grammar,
> Best wishes,
> Nina.

Okay, I can understand that you have enough to do as it is. I was
interested in reading your first posting today on the results of your
research on pariyaadaya.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
653
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 7, 2003 9:47pm
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Hi Tadao,

It's great to hear from you and thank-you for your suggestion which
comes close to what I have been thinking of doing. The rules are very
brief -- sometimes consisting of just one word. I will also be
translating the explanations accompanying the rules and adding
comments of my own and drawing on other material along the way. I'm
only just starting to study Kaccayana but I think what I've learnt
from Aggavamsa and Panini should make it a little easier for me.
Undoubtedly, there will be some rules that will be very hard for me to
make sense of and translate but at any rate I will make that clear
when I come to these and other trouble spots. Before I get to the
first rule I thought I should translate the two introductory verses
which I worked on earlier today.

Btw, a belated thanks for your Christmas card. When do you start
teaching your summer Pali course at the university?

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi, Jim:
> It would be nice for everybody if you (a) cite rules, (b) give their
> translations and then (c) explain the significance of these rules.
> Because, mere tranlation of of these rules doesn't make much sense
for
> most of us, given the fact that these rules themselves are highly
codified and
> abstract.
> tadao
 
 
654
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 8, 2003 4:07pm
Subject: Kc introduction

 
    namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.

Homage to Him, the Blessed One, the Perfected One, the Fully
Self-Awakened One.

kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m.

The Grammar of Kaccaayana.

[I will try to keep my comments and footnotes within square brackets.
The standard abbreviations for this text is Kc or Kacc and any numeral
that follows refers to the rule or sutta number -- eg. Kc 1. I am
basing this study on the following three texts that I have access to:

1. a paperback edition printed in Myanmar in the Burmese script. The
title page and introduction are written in the Burmese language which
I can't read. The title as best as I can render it is: Kacca~n3
saddaakrii3 paa.th (I take the colon to represent the third tone). One
of the two publication dates is: Saasanaa 2530 which would correspond
to 1986 CE. The pages are xvi + 311.

2. an etext version from the Burmese CSCD vers. 3 disk. This version
is so similar to the preceding that it makes me wonder if this is a
copy of the same book.

3. an etext version from the Sinhalese SLTP and found in the current
grammar.zip file (1998). Of the three texts, no. 1 is the most
reliable and no. 3, the least.

In both no. 2 and 3 the title of the book given at the beginning is
_kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m_ (no.2 has -by- instead of -vy-). However, at
the end of no. 1 & 2 the title is given as _kaccaayanapakara.na.m_
which is the same name given for the first of the three books ascribed
to Mahaakaccaana in the Apadaana cty (Ap-a 491). No. 3 does not give
the book title at the end. So, I wonder why the grammar is entitled
_kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m_. Vyaakara.na has the meaning of grammar and
is listed as one of the six (Sanskrit) Vedangas which suggests a
Sanskrit influence on the title. The Sanskritization of Pali texts is
something that we will be on the lookout for in this study. In its
derivation, vyaakara.na is closely related to the veyyaakara.na
(exposition) found in the Navanga classification of the Pali canon.

No. 1 & 2, but not 3, first give the suttas only which are followed
again by the same suttas but with the commentary. There is no Pali
title given for the first part containing the suttas only and the
title in no. 2 given to the following part with the commentary is
_mahaakaccaayanasaddaapaa.tha_ which I find a little strange. I think
it may be just a rendering from the Burmese title. There is one
problem in the numbering of the suttas. The Burmese numbering only
goes up to 673 whereas the Sinhalese goes to 675. This means that the
latter has two additional suttas which are nos. 244 and 245. The
Saddaniti uses the Sinhalese numbering which is probably what I will
adopt unless it can be shown that the two extra suttas don't belong.

Since there is some controversy over the author of this work and its
dating, I think it might be safer to consider just the suttas alone to
be (possibly) the work of Mahaakaccaayana and leave it an open
question as to who is the author of the commentary. In the
preservation of the texts, an authoritative grammar plays a very vital
and important role in preventing the intrusion of foreign influences
(Sanskrit in particular) that can have a corruptiing effect on the
original Pali. However, if the grammar itself has also become
corrupt (as I think it has), the task is made more difficult in
determining whether a spelling or a usage conforms to the original
Pali. We will often come across variant spellings, some of which will
just be mispellings but it can be much more difficult in deciding
which is correct when the variants have become well-established and
accepted.]

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
655
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:06am
Subject: Re: Kc introduction

 
    Dear Jim,
The two extra sutta are correct follow nyaasa comment (nyasa means right exposition ni+as,see sutta no.859 in saddasuttamala ni+aayogo for nyaayogo;I don't know how buddhadatta dict about mortgae and pawn came from).It is same with 487 and 485 in saddaniti.You must say it in burma as dhada kyi for saddakri means big grammar text.
The original sinhala are the best because he has included comments from tika for each sutta.




Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.

Homage to Him, the Blessed One, the Perfected One, the Fully
Self-Awakened One.

kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m.

The Grammar of Kaccaayana.

[I will try to keep my comments and footnotes within square brackets.
The standard abbreviations for this text is Kc or Kacc and any numeral
that follows refers to the rule or sutta number -- eg. Kc 1. I am
basing this study on the following three texts that I have access to:

1. a paperback edition printed in Myanmar in the Burmese script. The
title page and introduction are written in the Burmese language which
I can't read. The title as best as I can render it is: Kacca~n3
saddaakrii3 paa.th (I take the colon to represent the third tone). One
of the two publication dates is: Saasanaa 2530 which would correspond
to 1986 CE. The pages are xvi + 311.

2. an etext version from the Burmese CSCD vers. 3 disk. This version
is so similar to the preceding that it makes me wonder if this is a
copy of the same book.

3. an etext version from the Sinhalese SLTP and found in the current
grammar.zip file (1998). Of the three texts, no. 1 is the most
reliable and no. 3, the least.

In both no. 2 and 3 the title of the book given at the beginning is
_kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m_ (no.2 has -by- instead of -vy-). However, at
the end of no. 1 & 2 the title is given as _kaccaayanapakara.na.m_
which is the same name given for the first of the three books ascribed
to Mahaakaccaana in the Apadaana cty (Ap-a 491). No. 3 does not give
the book title at the end. So, I wonder why the grammar is entitled
_kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m_. Vyaakara.na has the meaning of grammar and
is listed as one of the six (Sanskrit) Vedangas which suggests a
Sanskrit influence on the title. The Sanskritization of Pali texts is
something that we will be on the lookout for in this study. In its
derivation, vyaakara.na is closely related to the veyyaakara.na
(exposition) found in the Navanga classification of the Pali canon.

No. 1 & 2, but not 3, first give the suttas only which are followed
again by the same suttas but with the commentary. There is no Pali
title given for the first part containing the suttas only and the
title in no. 2 given to the following part with the commentary is
_mahaakaccaayanasaddaapaa.tha_ which I find a little strange. I think
it may be just a rendering from the Burmese title. There is one
problem in the numbering of the suttas. The Burmese numbering only
goes up to 673 whereas the Sinhalese goes to 675. This means that the
latter has two additional suttas which are nos. 244 and 245. The
Saddaniti uses the Sinhalese numbering which is probably what I will
adopt unless it can be shown that the two extra suttas don't belong.

Since there is some controversy over the author of this work and its
dating, I think it might be safer to consider just the suttas alone to
be (possibly) the work of Mahaakaccaayana and leave it an open
question as to who is the author of the commentary. In the
preservation of the texts, an authoritative grammar plays a very vital
and important role in preventing the intrusion of foreign influences
(Sanskrit in particular) that can have a corruptiing effect on the
original Pali. However, if the grammar itself has also become
corrupt (as I think it has), the task is made more difficult in
determining whether a spelling or a usage conforms to the original
Pali. We will often come across variant spellings, some of which will
just be mispellings but it can be much more difficult in deciding
which is correct when the variants have become well-established and
accepted.]

Best wishes,
Jim





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




---------------------------------
Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
656
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:16am
Subject: saddaniti date

 
    Dear Jim,
I thought you might be interested for saddaniti composing date.Most people follow sasanavamso for this book as written in 1154 but I think it was written later in between 1234-1250 follow pitakamain.150 years old nisaya listed garu,matantara(diferrent views),kaci in it (at least 50 times)as rupasiddhi sayadaw which is written between 1236-1270 King parakaramabahu 2.It cannot be earlier for saddaniti to writing down buddhappiya 's views.Someone must have sent rupasiddhi mss to him as soon as rupasiddhi was written about the same time.Also niruttimanjusa mentioned twice in padamala can only be 13 th century book but not in 12 th cen.




Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa.

Homage to Him, the Blessed One, the Perfected One, the Fully
Self-Awakened One.

kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m.

The Grammar of Kaccaayana.

[I will try to keep my comments and footnotes within square brackets.
The standard abbreviations for this text is Kc or Kacc and any numeral
that follows refers to the rule or sutta number -- eg. Kc 1. I am
basing this study on the following three texts that I have access to:

1. a paperback edition printed in Myanmar in the Burmese script. The
title page and introduction are written in the Burmese language which
I can't read. The title as best as I can render it is: Kacca~n3
saddaakrii3 paa.th (I take the colon to represent the third tone). One
of the two publication dates is: Saasanaa 2530 which would correspond
to 1986 CE. The pages are xvi + 311.

2. an etext version from the Burmese CSCD vers. 3 disk. This version
is so similar to the preceding that it makes me wonder if this is a
copy of the same book.

3. an etext version from the Sinhalese SLTP and found in the current
grammar.zip file (1998). Of the three texts, no. 1 is the most
reliable and no. 3, the least.

In both no. 2 and 3 the title of the book given at the beginning is
_kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m_ (no.2 has -by- instead of -vy-). However, at
the end of no. 1 & 2 the title is given as _kaccaayanapakara.na.m_
which is the same name given for the first of the three books ascribed
to Mahaakaccaana in the Apadaana cty (Ap-a 491). No. 3 does not give
the book title at the end. So, I wonder why the grammar is entitled
_kaccaayanavyaakara.na.m_. Vyaakara.na has the meaning of grammar and
is listed as one of the six (Sanskrit) Vedangas which suggests a
Sanskrit influence on the title. The Sanskritization of Pali texts is
something that we will be on the lookout for in this study. In its
derivation, vyaakara.na is closely related to the veyyaakara.na
(exposition) found in the Navanga classification of the Pali canon.

No. 1 & 2, but not 3, first give the suttas only which are followed
again by the same suttas but with the commentary. There is no Pali
title given for the first part containing the suttas only and the
title in no. 2 given to the following part with the commentary is
_mahaakaccaayanasaddaapaa.tha_ which I find a little strange. I think
it may be just a rendering from the Burmese title. There is one
problem in the numbering of the suttas. The Burmese numbering only
goes up to 673 whereas the Sinhalese goes to 675. This means that the
latter has two additional suttas which are nos. 244 and 245. The
Saddaniti uses the Sinhalese numbering which is probably what I will
adopt unless it can be shown that the two extra suttas don't belong.

Since there is some controversy over the author of this work and its
dating, I think it might be safer to consider just the suttas alone to
be (possibly) the work of Mahaakaccaayana and leave it an open
question as to who is the author of the commentary. In the
preservation of the texts, an authoritative grammar plays a very vital
and important role in preventing the intrusion of foreign influences
(Sanskrit in particular) that can have a corruptiing effect on the
original Pali. However, if the grammar itself has also become
corrupt (as I think it has), the task is made more difficult in
determining whether a spelling or a usage conforms to the original
Pali. We will often come across variant spellings, some of which will
just be mispellings but it can be much more difficult in deciding
which is correct when the variants have become well-established and
accepted.]

Best wishes,
Jim





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657
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:07am
Subject: Re: saddaniti date

 
    Hi, Ong Teng Kee:
I would like to clearify one thing. Are you sasying that
(not only saddaniti but also) rupasiddhi was composed in Burma
around the 13th century? tadao
 
 
658
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:55pm
Subject: Re: Kc introduction

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

Thanks for the information. See below.

> Dear Jim,
> The two extra sutta are correct follow nyaasa comment (nyasa means
right exposition
> ni+as,see sutta no.859 in saddasuttamala ni+aayogo for nyaayogo;

I had a look at this sutta which has quite a long commentary on it. I
think Nyaasa is preferrable to the ~Naasa spelling found in the CPD
bibliography.

> I don't know how buddhadatta dict about mortgae and pawn came from).

I saw pawn for nyaasa in Monier-Williams' English-Sanskrit Dictionary.
It could be related to the meaning of ni + as (set down, also deposit)
making it seem like a term that could be used for a business
transaction as well as a literary work.

> It is same with 487 and 485 in saddaniti.You must say it in burma
as dhada kyi for saddakri means big grammar text.

I think your 485 should be 486.

> The original sinhala are the best because he has included comments
from tika for each sutta.

Is this tika the nyaasa?

Thanks also for the information about the dating of the Saddaniti. The
1154 dating is quite precise and I saw the date, 1697 (Buddha era,
1697-543=1154 A.D.), given in the Saasanava.msa (19th cent.) by
Pa~n~naasaami who also wrote the .tiika on the Saddaniiti. Kahrs in
JPTS XVII seems convinced that this tika never existed! Kahrs
cites the 1154 dating but also refers to an article by Tin Lwin who
argues (unconvincingly to Kahrs) for a later dating in the first half
of the 13th cent. I think the Ruupasiddhi is thought to have been
written sometime during the period 1236-70. I notice that the
Culla-ganthava.msa does not even mention the Ruupasiddhi.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< I thought you might be interested for saddaniti composing date.Most
people follow sasanavamso for this book as written in 1154 but I think
it was written later in between 1234-1250 follow pitakamain.150 years
old nisaya listed garu,matantara(diferrent views),kaci in it (at least
50 times)as rupasiddhi sayadaw which is written between 1236-1270 King
parakaramabahu 2.It cannot be earlier for saddaniti to writing down
buddhappiya 's views.Someone must have sent rupasiddhi mss to him as
soon as rupasiddhi was written about the same time.Also niruttimanjusa
mentioned twice in padamala can only be 13 th century book but not in
12 th cen. >>
 
 
659
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:20am
Subject: Re: Kc introduction

 
    I must mention that burma,cambodia ,sinhala ,shan and mon are not tonal languages like thai ,vietnam laos ,lanna,thai lue and various chinese languages.
I like to mention that saddaniti nisya did mention about 7 times saddaniti tika but all unimportant comments.This nisya was done about the same time with saddaniti tika.I have no luck with that taiwan guy but I think I can find it in mandalay.The nisya said saddaniti tika leaves texts are mya(a lot) in the intro.
That sinhala original selected only useful comment from vutti to suttanidesa,vannana,nyaasa ,etc.
Niruttimanjusa cannot be written in 12 th century for aggavamsa to refer to and saddatthbhedacinta,sarathhajalini are all imply in this sadaaniti.(14 th century book)



im Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Dear Teng Kee,

Thanks for the information. See below.

> Dear Jim,
> The two extra sutta are correct follow nyaasa comment (nyasa means
right exposition
> ni+as,see sutta no.859 in saddasuttamala ni+aayogo for nyaayogo;

I had a look at this sutta which has quite a long commentary on it. I
think Nyaasa is preferrable to the ~Naasa spelling found in the CPD
bibliography.

> I don't know how buddhadatta dict about mortgae and pawn came from).

I saw pawn for nyaasa in Monier-Williams' English-Sanskrit Dictionary.
It could be related to the meaning of ni + as (set down, also deposit)
making it seem like a term that could be used for a business
transaction as well as a literary work.

> It is same with 487 and 485 in saddaniti.You must say it in burma
as dhada kyi for saddakri means big grammar text.

I think your 485 should be 486.

> The original sinhala are the best because he has included comments
from tika for each sutta.

Is this tika the nyaasa?

Thanks also for the information about the dating of the Saddaniti. The
1154 dating is quite precise and I saw the date, 1697 (Buddha era,
1697-543=1154 A.D.), given in the Saasanava.msa (19th cent.) by
Pa~n~naasaami who also wrote the .tiika on the Saddaniiti. Kahrs in
JPTS XVII seems convinced that this tika never existed! Kahrs
cites the 1154 dating but also refers to an article by Tin Lwin who
argues (unconvincingly to Kahrs) for a later dating in the first half
of the 13th cent. I think the Ruupasiddhi is thought to have been
written sometime during the period 1236-70. I notice that the
Culla-ganthava.msa does not even mention the Ruupasiddhi.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< I thought you might be interested for saddaniti composing date.Most
people follow sasanavamso for this book as written in 1154 but I think
it was written later in between 1234-1250 follow pitakamain.150 years
old nisaya listed garu,matantara(diferrent views),kaci in it (at least
50 times)as rupasiddhi sayadaw which is written between 1236-1270 King
parakaramabahu 2.It cannot be earlier for saddaniti to writing down
buddhappiya 's views.Someone must have sent rupasiddhi mss to him as
soon as rupasiddhi was written about the same time.Also niruttimanjusa
mentioned twice in padamala can only be 13 th century book but not in
12 th cen. >>






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660
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:26am
Subject: Re: saddaniti date

 
    I already said king parakamabahu 2 period in sri lanka for buddhappiaya to write his rupasiddhi and its tika.He is not from burma like aggavamsa.
Also note that a japanese scholar put rupasiddhi as a before 10 th AD book (earlier that nyaasa)because he saw 700 times rupasiddhi have been mentioned in nyaasa .That is just a meaning for that word is form(rupa+siddhi)


miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca wrote:
Hi, Ong Teng Kee:
I would like to clearify one thing. Are you sasying that
(not only saddaniti but also) rupasiddhi was composed in Burma
around the 13th century? tadao




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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
661
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:54pm
Subject: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    [1. sandhikappa]

1.
se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca.
satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m,
vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m..

1.
Having venerated the Best, revered by the three worlds, the Chief,
The Buddha, the stainless Dhamma, and the highest Community;
To understand well the excellent meaning of the words of The Teacher,
I shall here articulate good sandhi rules, useful in the Discourses.

[This is the first of two introductory verses. The metre is
'vasanta-tilakaa' in which each of the lines consists of 14 syllables
(4 specific trisyllables ending with a disyllable, ie. lls, lss, sls,
sls, ll). It will be noted that there is an anomaly in that the last
syllable of the second line in each verse is short (s). It is not
clear what the combination of 'vasanta' (spring) and 'tilakaa' (a tree
species?) actually means -- perhaps something to do with the
blossoming of this tree in the spring.

tiloka-mahita.m: tiloka might be referring to the beings of the three
worlds. Another possibility might be "in the three worlds". I also
thought that the attributes on the first line could extend to the
Dhamma and the Community as well as the Buddha.

(su-)buddhu.m -- to understand (well): is the infinitive of budh. The
Sinhalese version has -boddhu.m, the same form as in the PED which
also has a bodhu.m. The Saddaniiti has buddhu.m and bujjhitu.m but no
boddhu.m (afaik).

sandhikappa.m: sandhikappo is the name given to the first chapter of
the grammar which consists of five sections (ka.n.das) and 51 suttas
or rules. kappa is a word that has a lot of different meanings and 12
are listed in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh 799) of which I think
"vidhi" (rule, ordinance, precept; prescription) might be a good
candidate. The only problem is that it is in the singular whereas a
plural would seem more fitting.]

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
662
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 0:11am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Jim,
I read this with great interest, I am glad about the Pali and your
translation and delighted to learn something about metre. I know nothing
about it. 
Thanks,
Nina. 

op 12-06-2003 04:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> [1. sandhikappa]
 
 
663
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:46am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    The mening sandhi for section is from 742 where abhidhasuci put it as pariccheda.This verse is not in original kaccayana as ashin janakabhivamsa said .It is from vutti which is follow by comment in nyaasa.some leaves in burmese don't have this into.
I have to go home to check where you get vasantilaka name.

Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
[1. sandhikappa]

1.
se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca.
satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m,
vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m..

1.
Having venerated the Best, revered by the three worlds, the Chief,
The Buddha, the stainless Dhamma, and the highest Community;
To understand well the excellent meaning of the words of The Teacher,
I shall here articulate good sandhi rules, useful in the Discourses.

[This is the first of two introductory verses. The metre is
'vasanta-tilakaa' in which each of the lines consists of 14 syllables
(4 specific trisyllables ending with a disyllable, ie. lls, lss, sls,
sls, ll). It will be noted that there is an anomaly in that the last
syllable of the second line in each verse is short (s). It is not
clear what the combination of 'vasanta' (spring) and 'tilakaa' (a tree
species?) actually means -- perhaps something to do with the
blossoming of this tree in the spring.

tiloka-mahita.m: tiloka might be referring to the beings of the three
worlds. Another possibility might be "in the three worlds". I also
thought that the attributes on the first line could extend to the
Dhamma and the Community as well as the Buddha.

(su-)buddhu.m -- to understand (well): is the infinitive of budh. The
Sinhalese version has -boddhu.m, the same form as in the PED which
also has a bodhu.m. The Saddaniiti has buddhu.m and bujjhitu.m but no
boddhu.m (afaik).

sandhikappa.m: sandhikappo is the name given to the first chapter of
the grammar which consists of five sections (ka.n.das) and 51 suttas
or rules. kappa is a word that has a lot of different meanings and 12
are listed in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh 799) of which I think
"vidhi" (rule, ordinance, precept; prescription) might be a good
candidate. The only problem is that it is in the singular whereas a
plural would seem more fitting.]

Best wishes,
Jim






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
664
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:52am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Hi Teng Kee,

> The mening sandhi for section is from 742 where abhidhasuci put it
as pariccheda.

I think you must have meant to write 'kappa' instead of 'sandhi'.
Thank-you very much for this bit of useful information which I fully
agree with although I would have never guessed it from reading
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa 742 alone which only gives ki~nciduunake
(anything less) for kappo but the .tiikaa certainly makes the meaning
of 'section' clear:

ki~nciduunake appamattakayutte kappo. uunassa appakataaya kappiiyati
ekaadivasena paricchijjatiiti kappo. kappa paricchedane. --
Abhidhaanaappadiipikaa-.tiikaa 742

And 'kappa paricchedane' is similar to 'chede' in being one of the
several root meanings of 'kappa' given in Dhaatuma~njuusaa (275) and
Saddaniiti (1525) where Aggava.msa explains kappo in this sense thus:

tattha kappo ti paricchedavasena kappiiyatiiti kappo. -- Sadd p. 551

I think 'chapter' would be a better translation for 'kappo' while
reserving 'section' for 'ka.n.do' which is a smaller division of a
kappa. 'Ka.n.da' seems to have come from the segments between the
nodes of a plant stalk.

Is the suuci that you refer to the same as the .tiikaa included in the
CSCD? The CPD gives the name of 'suuci' but does not give it a
separate entry. Instead it lists two tikas, one of which is the same
as Pit-sm 452 by Caturangabala. Is the latter the CSCD one?

> This verse is not in original kaccayana as ashin janakabhivamsa said
.It is from vutti which is > follow by comment in nyaasa.some leaves
in burmese don't have this into.

So I take it that the vutti was not written by Kaccayana? I'm thinking
of the fact that the name 'Kaccayana' was not mentioned in the two
verses, unlike in the second one at the beginning of the Ruupasiddhi.
This might lend some support to Kaccayana being the author of the
verses and the vutti.

> I have to go home to check where you get vasantilaka name.

You will find the name 'vasanta-tilakaa' in the Vuttodaya, pariccheda
III under Sakkarii:

vuttaa vasantatilakaa ta-bha-jaa ja-gaa go. (which is in the same
metre)

I think I may have read somewhere, likely in Warder, that the metre
can provide some clue as to the dating of a text. Warder has written a
book called Pali Metre which I will check for further information on
this particular metre.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
665
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    > vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m..

> I shall here articulate good sandhi rules, useful in the Discourses.

[I think this line needs to be reworked now that the meaning of kappa
in the sense of a division has come to light. It is interesting that
the PED, Cone, Buddhadatta, and 2 large Sanskrit dictionaries (for
kalpa) do not give this meaning. Also 'sutta' might be referring to
the suttas of the grammar and not those in the Nikaayas. In PED the
meaning of 'hita' is given along the lines of useful, beneficial, good
but since it is the past participle of dhaa it could also have the
meaning of put, placed, laid, or set. I think the author of these
verses is likely to be the one who wrote the vutti or commentary
whether it be Kaccayana himself or Sanghaanandii. 'vakkhaami' (I will
say) could be related to 'pavkkhaami' (I will explain) in meaning with
the 'pa' omitted to fit the metre. Here's another translation attempt:

I shall explain here the splendid Sandhi Chapter set into suttas.

I'm not so sure about 'splendid' for su-. The 5 meanings of this
prefix given in the Saddaniiti (p. 885) are sobha.na (beautiful,
splendid), sukha (pleasant, easy), su.t.thu (well), sammaa (complete,
proper), and samiddhi (success).]

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
666
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 0:24am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Jim,
op 13-06-2003 16:52 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I think I may have read somewhere, likely in Warder, that the metre
> can provide some clue as to the dating of a text.
N: Your are just saying what I asked in dsg about dating.
I tried to find long and short syllables in the four lines you gave, but
find it hard to know what is long, what is short.
Thank you,
Nina.
 
 
667
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:00am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    See vuttodaya sutta no.7 for tha last can become long by not following the meter.warder also said about this.


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
[1. sandhikappa]

1.
se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca.
satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m,
vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m..

1.
Having venerated the Best, revered by the three worlds, the Chief,
The Buddha, the stainless Dhamma, and the highest Community;
To understand well the excellent meaning of the words of The Teacher,
I shall here articulate good sandhi rules, useful in the Discourses.

[This is the first of two introductory verses. The metre is
'vasanta-tilakaa' in which each of the lines consists of 14 syllables
(4 specific trisyllables ending with a disyllable, ie. lls, lss, sls,
sls, ll). It will be noted that there is an anomaly in that the last
syllable of the second line in each verse is short (s). It is not
clear what the combination of 'vasanta' (spring) and 'tilakaa' (a tree
species?) actually means -- perhaps something to do with the
blossoming of this tree in the spring.

tiloka-mahita.m: tiloka might be referring to the beings of the three
worlds. Another possibility might be "in the three worlds". I also
thought that the attributes on the first line could extend to the
Dhamma and the Community as well as the Buddha.

(su-)buddhu.m -- to understand (well): is the infinitive of budh. The
Sinhalese version has -boddhu.m, the same form as in the PED which
also has a bodhu.m. The Saddaniiti has buddhu.m and bujjhitu.m but no
boddhu.m (afaik).

sandhikappa.m: sandhikappo is the name given to the first chapter of
the grammar which consists of five sections (ka.n.das) and 51 suttas
or rules. kappa is a word that has a lot of different meanings and 12
are listed in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh 799) of which I think
"vidhi" (rule, ordinance, precept; prescription) might be a good
candidate. The only problem is that it is in the singular whereas a
plural would seem more fitting.]

Best wishes,
Jim






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
668
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:18am
Subject: subhuti and warder

 
    The suci is from ven .subhuti (lanka)100 years ago.it is an index book with the alphabet in order.
warder pali meter book is a mess because meter in vuttodaya are not included but other meter are included.The last word can be long has been mentioned by him but didn't mention sangharakhita at all.




Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> wrote:
The mening sandhi for section is from 742 where abhidhasuci put it as pariccheda.This verse is not in original kaccayana as ashin janakabhivamsa said .It is from vutti which is follow by comment in nyaasa.some leaves in burmese don't have this into.
I have to go home to check where you get vasantilaka name.

Jim Anderson wrote:
[1. sandhikappa]

1.
se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca.
satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m,
vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m..

1.
Having venerated the Best, revered by the three worlds, the Chief,
The Buddha, the stainless Dhamma, and the highest Community;
To understand well the excellent meaning of the words of The Teacher,
I shall here articulate good sandhi rules, useful in the Discourses.

[This is the first of two introductory verses. The metre is
'vasanta-tilakaa' in which each of the lines consists of 14 syllables
(4 specific trisyllables ending with a disyllable, ie. lls, lss, sls,
sls, ll). It will be noted that there is an anomaly in that the last
syllable of the second line in each verse is short (s). It is not
clear what the combination of 'vasanta' (spring) and 'tilakaa' (a tree
species?) actually means -- perhaps something to do with the
blossoming of this tree in the spring.

tiloka-mahita.m: tiloka might be referring to the beings of the three
worlds. Another possibility might be "in the three worlds". I also
thought that the attributes on the first line could extend to the
Dhamma and the Community as well as the Buddha.

(su-)buddhu.m -- to understand (well): is the infinitive of budh. The
Sinhalese version has -boddhu.m, the same form as in the PED which
also has a bodhu.m. The Saddaniiti has buddhu.m and bujjhitu.m but no
boddhu.m (afaik).

sandhikappa.m: sandhikappo is the name given to the first chapter of
the grammar which consists of five sections (ka.n.das) and 51 suttas
or rules. kappa is a word that has a lot of different meanings and 12
are listed in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh 799) of which I think
"vidhi" (rule, ordinance, precept; prescription) might be a good
candidate. The only problem is that it is in the singular whereas a
plural would seem more fitting.]

Best wishes,
Jim






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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
669
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:42am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Please don't say saddakri because it has no meaning at all.It must be kyi means big.r is y ,s is t in burma but not shan and mon,Kaccayana vutti are certainly not by kaccayana because it has been mentioned by aggavamsa in saddaniti as vutti pana ......as someone else.


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi Teng Kee,

> The mening sandhi for section is from 742 where abhidhasuci put it
as pariccheda.

I think you must have meant to write 'kappa' instead of 'sandhi'.
Thank-you very much for this bit of useful information which I fully
agree with although I would have never guessed it from reading
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa 742 alone which only gives ki~nciduunake
(anything less) for kappo but the .tiikaa certainly makes the meaning
of 'section' clear:

ki~nciduunake appamattakayutte kappo. uunassa appakataaya kappiiyati
ekaadivasena paricchijjatiiti kappo. kappa paricchedane. --
Abhidhaanaappadiipikaa-.tiikaa 742

And 'kappa paricchedane' is similar to 'chede' in being one of the
several root meanings of 'kappa' given in Dhaatuma~njuusaa (275) and
Saddaniiti (1525) where Aggava.msa explains kappo in this sense thus:

tattha kappo ti paricchedavasena kappiiyatiiti kappo. -- Sadd p. 551

I think 'chapter' would be a better translation for 'kappo' while
reserving 'section' for 'ka.n.do' which is a smaller division of a
kappa. 'Ka.n.da' seems to have come from the segments between the
nodes of a plant stalk.

Is the suuci that you refer to the same as the .tiikaa included in the
CSCD? The CPD gives the name of 'suuci' but does not give it a
separate entry. Instead it lists two tikas, one of which is the same
as Pit-sm 452 by Caturangabala. Is the latter the CSCD one?

> This verse is not in original kaccayana as ashin janakabhivamsa said
.It is from vutti which is > follow by comment in nyaasa.some leaves
in burmese don't have this into.

So I take it that the vutti was not written by Kaccayana? I'm thinking
of the fact that the name 'Kaccayana' was not mentioned in the two
verses, unlike in the second one at the beginning of the Ruupasiddhi.
This might lend some support to Kaccayana being the author of the
verses and the vutti.

> I have to go home to check where you get vasantilaka name.

You will find the name 'vasanta-tilakaa' in the Vuttodaya, pariccheda
III under Sakkarii:

vuttaa vasantatilakaa ta-bha-jaa ja-gaa go. (which is in the same
metre)

I think I may have read somewhere, likely in Warder, that the metre
can provide some clue as to the dating of a text. Warder has written a
book called Pali Metre which I will check for further information on
this particular metre.

Best wishes,
Jim





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670
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:47am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    plase send order for siddhatha vuttodaya eng tran from any india bookstore

nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:Dear Jim,
op 13-06-2003 16:52 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I think I may have read somewhere, likely in Warder, that the metre
> can provide some clue as to the dating of a text.
N: Your are just saying what I asked in dsg about dating.
I tried to find long and short syllables in the four lines you gave, but
find it hard to know what is long, what is short.
Thank you,
Nina.





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671
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 0:54pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Jim,
op 14-06-2003 00:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I'm not so sure about 'splendid' for su-. The 5 meanings of this
> prefix given in the Saddaniiti (p. 885) are sobha.na (beautiful,
> splendid), sukha (pleasant, easy), su.t.thu (well), sammaa (complete,
> proper), and samiddhi (success).]
N: An alternative: proper or complete. Fits the style of an exposition about
rules. 
An alternative for kappa could be: regulation, set of rules. I have seen
siisa as the word for section.
Nina.
 
 
672
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 14, 2003 11:37am
Subject: Re: some thoughts on studying the texts

 
    Hi, Jim:
(i) This is a slow responce to one of your earlier
e-mail messages.
(ii) Yes, one of the courses I teach during this summer
is on the Pali language. As textbooks, I am using Warder's grammar book
and Dhammapada (from Pasadena, California: Theosophical University Press.)
(iii) I appreciate your effort of translating the grammar book into
English.
tadao
 
 
673
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:07am
Subject: Re: subhuti and warder

 
    Dear Jim, 
I have no idea you have the pali meter by Warder or not.
This book didn't mention vansantatilaka like in vuttodaya.No direct mattachanda /ganachanda was mentioned by sangharakhita.If anyone wnat to write an thesis on pali meter ,he must write on vuttadaya tika,chandosarathavilasini,vacanajotika,chapaccayadipani and chandomanjari and burmese/sinhala/thai/cambodia nissaya on them.but surely not like warder/norman in theragatha etc.

Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> wrote:
The suci is from ven .subhuti (lanka)100 years ago.it is an index book with the alphabet in order.
warder pali meter book is a mess because meter in vuttodaya are not included but other meter are included.The last word can be long has been mentioned by him but didn't mention sangharakhita at all.




Ong Teng Kee wrote:
The mening sandhi for section is from 742 where abhidhasuci put it as pariccheda.This verse is not in original kaccayana as ashin janakabhivamsa said .It is from vutti which is follow by comment in nyaasa.some leaves in burmese don't have this into.
I have to go home to check where you get vasantilaka name.

Jim Anderson wrote:
[1. sandhikappa]

1.
se.t.tha.m tilokamahita.m abhivandiyagga.m,
buddha~nca dhammamamala.m ga.namuttama~nca.
satthussa tassa vacanatthavara.m subuddhu.m,
vakkhaami suttahitamettha susandhikappa.m..

1.
Having venerated the Best, revered by the three worlds, the Chief,
The Buddha, the stainless Dhamma, and the highest Community;
To understand well the excellent meaning of the words of The Teacher,
I shall here articulate good sandhi rules, useful in the Discourses.

[This is the first of two introductory verses. The metre is
'vasanta-tilakaa' in which each of the lines consists of 14 syllables
(4 specific trisyllables ending with a disyllable, ie. lls, lss, sls,
sls, ll). It will be noted that there is an anomaly in that the last
syllable of the second line in each verse is short (s). It is not
clear what the combination of 'vasanta' (spring) and 'tilakaa' (a tree
species?) actually means -- perhaps something to do with the
blossoming of this tree in the spring.

tiloka-mahita.m: tiloka might be referring to the beings of the three
worlds. Another possibility might be "in the three worlds". I also
thought that the attributes on the first line could extend to the
Dhamma and the Community as well as the Buddha.

(su-)buddhu.m -- to understand (well): is the infinitive of budh. The
Sinhalese version has -boddhu.m, the same form as in the PED which
also has a bodhu.m. The Saddaniiti has buddhu.m and bujjhitu.m but no
boddhu.m (afaik).

sandhikappa.m: sandhikappo is the name given to the first chapter of
the grammar which consists of five sections (ka.n.das) and 51 suttas
or rules. kappa is a word that has a lot of different meanings and 12
are listed in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh 799) of which I think
"vidhi" (rule, ordinance, precept; prescription) might be a good
candidate. The only problem is that it is in the singular whereas a
plural would seem more fitting.]

Best wishes,
Jim






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674
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Jun 15, 2003 11:54pm
Subject: Re: greetings

 
    Hi Tadao, 
I am also delighted to hear from you, was thinking of you the other day,
Nina. 
op 15-06-2003 00:37 schreef miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca op miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca:

> (ii) Yes, one of the courses I teach during this summer
> is on the Pali language.
 

675
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:26am
Subject: Re: greetings

 
    Hi, Nina:
I am still alive, doing rather well.
I hope everyting is well with you. tadao
 
 
676
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:25pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Nina,

It will sometimes happen that there will be some delay in responding
to messages on this list. Things can crop up unexpectedly that will
draw away my attention for awhile such as responding to messages on
other lists, taking a day or two off for a rest, or attending to other
non-computer matters. At any rate, I'll do my best to respond in due
course. I see that you're taking a few days off yourself.

> > I think I may have read somewhere, likely in Warder, that the
metre
> > can provide some clue as to the dating of a text.

I'd disregard this remark as it's possible I may not have read it
after all -- just thought I might have.

> N: Your are just saying what I asked in dsg about dating.
> I tried to find long and short syllables in the four lines you gave,
but
> find it hard to know what is long, what is short.

Warder gives two rules on p. 357 of his Introduction to Pali for
determining which syllable is short or long. I think it might be more
accurate to call the two kinds of syllables: light (lahu) or heavy
(garu). The Saddaniti also gives a couple of rules on this. I usually
think in terms of open (ending in a vowel) or closed (ending in a
consonant) syllables. If an open syllable is a short vowel or ends in
a short vowel, then the syllable is short or light. If the vowel is
long, then it is a long syllable. All closed syllables, regardless of
whether the vowel is short or long, is long or heavy. Here's how I
divide up the first line of verse 1 into syllables:

se.t-.tha.m-ti-lo-ka-ma-hi-ta.m-a-bhi-van-di-yag-ga.m

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
677
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 20, 2003 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Hi Teng Kee,

> See vuttodaya sutta no.7 for tha last can become long by not
> following the meter.warder also said about this.

Thanks for this. I found something similar in the following:

Dr. B. Jinananda writes:
"Further, for the exigency of the Metre (Chanda) a short vowel is to
be regarded as long if it is at the end of a quarter, and a long vowel
can, similarly, be regarded as short if it is at the end of a
quarter." -- p. 172, The Nava-Nalanda-Mahavihara Research Publication,
Vol. II, 1960

This book contains the text of the Vuttodaya in Devanagari script
along with an English translation of most of it with some notes. It's
what I use in finding a match for a Pali metre. I find some of the
verses very hard to make sense of and verse/sutta 7 is no exception!

In a later message you wrote:

<< I have no idea you have the pali meter by Warder or not.
This book didn't mention vansantatilaka like in vuttodaya.No direct
mattachanda /ganachanda was mentioned by sangharakhita.If anyone wnat
to write an thesis on pali meter ,he must write on vuttadaya
tika,chandosarathavilasini,vacanajotika,chapaccayadipani and
chandomanjari and burmese/sinhala/thai/cambodia nissaya on them.but
surely not like warder/norman in theragatha etc. >>

I do have Warder's Pali Metre but I have never gotten around to
spending much time with it as it seems like a difficult book to use
when all you want to do is to match a metre. I saw that the
vasantatilakaa metre is not even mentioned in the index -- maybe it
goes under a different name. The Vuttodaya is mentioned in passing
only at 19 regarding H. Smith and his Saddaniiti which contains a
listing of the different metres in Vol. IV (Tables). The CPD
bibliography only has the Vuttodaya listed along with a number of
commentaries including the ones you mention here except Chandomanjari
which I don't have any of but would find useful in unravelling some of
those highly condensed verses in the Vuttodaya. Jinananda says that
Sangharakkhita is the same person as the grammarian Moggallana which I
find doubtful but maybe the same as the author of the
Abhidhanappadipika? At the back of that book is found the
Subodhalankara and Vuttodaya.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
678
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 0:15am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Jim,
thank you very much, I shall study the long and short ones.
Delay does not matter at all, do not worry.
Many thanks,
Nina. 
op 17-06-2003 03:25 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> It will sometimes happen that there will be some delay in responding
> to messages on this list.
 
 
679
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:55am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Jim,
sangharakkhita surely is not moggalana but he wrote khuddhakasikkhanavatika,pancikatika on moggalana(in cd now),susaddhasiddhi,subodhalankara,sambadhacinta.He mentioned this in sambandhacinta but without pancikatika which should be his last work.
If we study these grammar texts without any nisya in theravada languages ,it will be too hard.Those gatha seem meaningless.Without subodhalankara tika and new tika,it is just some unreadable words to study about pali gatha writing.
Warder didn't mention any 14 matta meter but keep on talking about non sense in his book.


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi Teng Kee,

> See vuttodaya sutta no.7 for tha last can become long by not
> following the meter.warder also said about this.

Thanks for this. I found something similar in the following:

Dr. B. Jinananda writes:
"Further, for the exigency of the Metre (Chanda) a short vowel is to
be regarded as long if it is at the end of a quarter, and a long vowel
can, similarly, be regarded as short if it is at the end of a
quarter." -- p. 172, The Nava-Nalanda-Mahavihara Research Publication,
Vol. II, 1960

This book contains the text of the Vuttodaya in Devanagari script
along with an English translation of most of it with some notes. It's
what I use in finding a match for a Pali metre. I find some of the
verses very hard to make sense of and verse/sutta 7 is no exception!

In a later message you wrote:

<< I have no idea you have the pali meter by Warder or not.
This book didn't mention vansantatilaka like in vuttodaya.No direct
mattachanda /ganachanda was mentioned by sangharakhita.If anyone wnat
to write an thesis on pali meter ,he must write on vuttadaya
tika,chandosarathavilasini,vacanajotika,chapaccayadipani and
chandomanjari and burmese/sinhala/thai/cambodia nissaya on them.but
surely not like warder/norman in theragatha etc. >>

I do have Warder's Pali Metre but I have never gotten around to
spending much time with it as it seems like a difficult book to use
when all you want to do is to match a metre. I saw that the
vasantatilakaa metre is not even mentioned in the index -- maybe it
goes under a different name. The Vuttodaya is mentioned in passing
only at 19 regarding H. Smith and his Saddaniiti which contains a
listing of the different metres in Vol. IV (Tables). The CPD
bibliography only has the Vuttodaya listed along with a number of
commentaries including the ones you mention here except Chandomanjari
which I don't have any of but would find useful in unravelling some of
those highly condensed verses in the Vuttodaya. Jinananda says that
Sangharakkhita is the same person as the grammarian Moggallana which I
find doubtful but maybe the same as the author of the
Abhidhanappadipika? At the back of that book is found the
Subodhalankara and Vuttodaya.

Best wishes,
Jim






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680
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 21, 2003 5:59am
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 1

 
    Dear Jim, I overlooked that nyaasa is in abhidhana verse no.472 as deposit tran by subhuti in eng.Nyasa is also a tika name for kasikavutti in sanskrit.(kasikavrtti)

Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> wrote:Dear Jim,
sangharakkhita surely is not moggalana but he wrote khuddhakasikkhanavatika,pancikatika on moggalana(in cd now),susaddhasiddhi,subodhalankara,sambadhacinta.He mentioned this in sambandhacinta but without pancikatika which should be his last work.
If we study these grammar texts without any nisya in theravada languages ,it will be too hard.Those gatha seem meaningless.Without subodhalankara tika and new tika,it is just some unreadable words to study about pali gatha writing.
Warder didn't mention any 14 matta meter but keep on talking about non sense in his book.


Jim Anderson wrote:
Hi Teng Kee,

> See vuttodaya sutta no.7 for tha last can become long by not
> following the meter.warder also said about this.

Thanks for this. I found something similar in the following:

Dr. B. Jinananda writes:
"Further, for the exigency of the Metre (Chanda) a short vowel is to
be regarded as long if it is at the end of a quarter, and a long vowel
can, similarly, be regarded as short if it is at the end of a
quarter." -- p. 172, The Nava-Nalanda-Mahavihara Research Publication,
Vol. II, 1960

This book contains the text of the Vuttodaya in Devanagari script
along with an English translation of most of it with some notes. It's
what I use in finding a match for a Pali metre. I find some of the
verses very hard to make sense of and verse/sutta 7 is no exception!

In a later message you wrote:

<< I have no idea you have the pali meter by Warder or not.
This book didn't mention vansantatilaka like in vuttodaya.No direct
mattachanda /ganachanda was mentioned by sangharakhita.If anyone wnat
to write an thesis on pali meter ,he must write on vuttadaya
tika,chandosarathavilasini,vacanajotika,chapaccayadipani and
chandomanjari and burmese/sinhala/thai/cambodia nissaya on them.but
surely not like warder/norman in theragatha etc. >>

I do have Warder's Pali Metre but I have never gotten around to
spending much time with it as it seems like a difficult book to use
when all you want to do is to match a metre. I saw that the
vasantatilakaa metre is not even mentioned in the index -- maybe it
goes under a different name. The Vuttodaya is mentioned in passing
only at 19 regarding H. Smith and his Saddaniiti which contains a
listing of the different metres in Vol. IV (Tables). The CPD
bibliography only has the Vuttodaya listed along with a number of
commentaries including the ones you mention here except Chandomanjari
which I don't have any of but would find useful in unravelling some of
those highly condensed verses in the Vuttodaya. Jinananda says that
Sangharakkhita is the same person as the grammarian Moggallana which I
find doubtful but maybe the same as the author of the
Abhidhanappadipika? At the back of that book is found the
Subodhalankara and Vuttodaya.

Best wishes,
Jim






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681
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 0:19am
Subject: Kc intro. verse 2

 
    2.
seyya.m jineritanayena budhaa labhanti,
ta~ncaapi tassa vacanatthasubodhanena.
attha~nca akkharapadesu amohabhaavaa;
seyyatthiko padamato vividha.m su.neyya.

The wise ones obtain excellence with the method proclaimed by
the Conqueror,
And this too by understanding well the meaning of His Words,
And the meaning in the letters and words owing to non-confusion;
Therefore, one desirous of excellence should listen to the manifold
words.

[ 1) seyya.m (excellence): acc. neut. noun is related to the
comparative adj. 'seyya' (better). For the noun, PED gives: -- good,
happiness, well-being -- but here I think 'excellence' is better than
'good' given the context. It's rare to find 'seyya.m' in this sense as
a noun in the Tipitaka. The form 'seyya.m' is usually the acc. of the
fem. 'seyyaa' (bed, sleeping place). There is an interesting sutta on
the formation of seyya & se.t.tha at Kc 265 which I will post next.

2) jineritanayena = jina+iirita+nayena (by the method proclaimed by
the Conqueror). Under 'iirita', CPD includes 'jinerita' with a remark
on the sandhi -e-. I see a sandhi problem here in that when confronted
by 'jinerita' how does one know whether the -e- might not also be
sandhi for -a+i- (which can be eliminated as there is no 'irita')
or -a+e- (there is an 'erita' meaning 'proclaimed'). I will set aside
this problem until the relevant sandhi rule comes up later. As is
often the case with Pali derivation, it is difficult one to sort out
here. There are two roots for 'iir' and one for 'iriy' with several
meanings such as move, utter, agitate. Aggava.msa places the iir with
one of the meanings referring to speech in the bhuvaadi class whereas
Kaccayana places it in the curaadi class. Also, Cone places 'erita'
under 'iriyati'.

3) ta~ncaapi = ta.m ca aapi (and this too). One could take the pronoun
'ta.m' to refer to either 'excellence' or 'the method'. I think
'attha.m' (meaning) in the third line can be the patient of
'subodhanena' (by understanding well). The patient of 'labhanti' is
certainly 'excellence' and 'ta.m' on the second line, and possibly the
'attha.m' on the 3rd line too. There is a nice set of connections
shown here as I see it: letters and sentences ==> meaning (pariyatti)
==> the method (pa.tipatti) ==> excellence (pa.tivedha or adhigama).
The verse can be read in different ways.]

4) padamato = padam ato. ato is 'therefore'.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
682
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:12pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 2

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much.
op 03-07-2003 06:19 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> 
> [ 1) seyya.m (excellence): acc. neut. noun is related to the
> comparative adj. 'seyya' (better). For the noun, PED gives: -- good,
> happiness, well-being -- but here I think 'excellence' is better than
> 'good' given the context.
N: could there be another reading for seyya.m: the highest good, optimum
bonum, the highest goal?
amohabhaavaa: would a possible reading be: by the development of amoha,
pa~n~naa? bhaavo means nature but also development.
J: 4) padamato = padam ato. ato is 'therefore'.
N: is ato almost the same as ito?
There is much stress here on studying the words. He says again, padamato
vividha.m. Is Kaccayana drawing attention to the words that will follow and
that he will explain?
Nina.
 
 
683
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:40pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 2

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim,
> Thank you very much.
> op 03-07-2003 06:19 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> >
> > [ 1) seyya.m (excellence): acc. neut. noun is related to the
> > comparative adj. 'seyya' (better). For the noun, PED gives: --
good,
> > happiness, well-being -- but here I think 'excellence' is better
than
> > 'good' given the context.
> N: could there be another reading for seyya.m: the highest good,
optimum
> bonum, the highest goal?

I did consider 'the highest good' (summum bonum) and it still looks
good. One problem is how do we define 'the wise ones' (budhaa). To say
that the wise ones obtain the highest goal or good, then we would have
to take them to be obtaining arahantship. I'm also thinking of the
ones on the lower paths (sotaapanna, etc.) maybe even lower than that
but then they're all aiming for the highest, aren't they? Another
problem is that, as you will see in a later posting, seyya is the
equivalent of pasatthatara (more or most praiseworthy or esteemed) and
I'm inclined to associate the good with 'hita.m'. In my search for
other definitions I came across sundaratara, pa.niitatara, uttama,
se.t.tha. At Ja II 402 for seyya.mso (seyya-a.mso transl. questionably
as the better part) the cty gives: anavajja-uttamadhammasa"nkhaata.m
seyyo a.mso ko.t.thaaso assaa ti. The highest dhamma is an interesting
interpretation for seyyo and I would consider replacing 'excellence'
with 'the highest state'.

> amohabhaavaa: would a possible reading be: by the development of
> amoha, pa~n~naa? bhaavo means nature but also development.

amohabhaava is extremely rare in the texts (not even in CPD) and I
could find no explanation of the -bhaava at the end. I take it in the
sense of state, condition, nature and never even considered it as
bhaavanaa although that sense is included in PED under 2 but without
proper refs. I didn't translate it as I think it is adequately
accounted for by the -ion of non-confusion.

> J: 4) padamato = padam ato. ato is 'therefore'.
> N: is ato almost the same as ito?

That would take some studying to determine exactly how similar or
different they are. I'm sure ato is derived from a pronominal base
just as ito is. The -to affix is the same in both. Instead of
'therefore', 'because of this' would be more literal. I've seen 'ito
para.m' (from here on) in the Saddaniiti in introductory verses to the
chapters.

> There is much stress here on studying the words. He says again,
padamato
> vividha.m. Is Kaccayana drawing attention to the words that will
follow and
> that he will explain?

I wonder if Kaccayana is really the author of the two introductory
verses as there is some debate as to whether he wrote the commentary
(vutti) on the grammatical suttas assuming that the author of the
verses is the commentator. I think that I can accept that the suttas
are those of Kaccayana. It seems possible that 'ato' could have some
other meaning here that might be able to draw more attention to the
words that immediately follow but I think 'ito' would better serve
this purpose. As it stands with 'therefore' there is left some doubt
as to which words one should listen to: those in any Pali text or
specifically to those of the grammar.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
684
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 0:36pm
Subject: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)

 
    263 (265). pasatthassa so ca.
sabbasseva pasatthasaddassa so aadeso hoti, jaadeso ca iya i.t.tha
iccetesu paccayesu.
seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.

263 (Sinhalese 265). And 'sa' is the substitute of 'pasattha'
(praised).
Of just the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'sa' and
'ja' before these affixes: iya, i.t.tha.
seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.

[Notes: 1) This sutta has to be read with the preceding one:

262. vu.d.dhassa jo iyi.t.thesu.
'ja' is the substitute of vu.d.dha (old, aged) before iya & i.t.tha.

"And 'sa'" means that 'ja' is included here also while 'sa' is
excluded from 262.

2) These two suttas are universal in having their counterparts in
other Sanskrit and Pali grammars. Saddaniiti 512 apparently omits to
include 'ja' as a substitute of 'pasattha'.

3) It has come to light that the commentary on the same sutta in the
Burmese and Sinhalese text called Kaccaayanavyaakara.na are not the
same. Here's the Sinhalese version:

sabbassa pasatthasaddassa so aadeso ca hoti jo aadeso ca iya i.t.tha
iccetesu paccayesu paresu. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena
pasatthoti seyyo. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena pasatthoti
se.t.tho. jeyyo, je.t.tho. casaddaggaha.na.m
dutiyaaadesasampi.n.danattha.m.

Of the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'ja' as well as
'ja' before these subsequent affixes: iya, i.t.tha.

"seyyo" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised in
particular.

"se.t.tho" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised
in particular.

jeyyo, je.t.tho.

The inclusion of the word 'ca' is for the sake of adding a second
substitute ('ja').]

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
685
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 0:51pm
Subject: Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)

 
    It just occurred to me that I should have translated 'sabbe ime
pasatthaa' as 'all these are praised; ...' or 'they are all praised;
...'. The 'that' should be omitted.

> "seyyo" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised
> in particular.
>
> "se.t.tho" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is
> praised in particular.

Jim
 
 
686
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Kc intro. verse 2

 
    Dear Jim,
thank you for your well-considered reply.

op 04-07-2003 03:40 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> I did consider 'the highest good' (summum bonum) and it still looks
> good. One problem is how do we define 'the wise ones' (budhaa). To say
> that the wise ones obtain the highest goal or good, then we would have
> to take them to be obtaining arahantship. I'm also thinking of the
> ones on the lower paths (sotaapanna, etc.) maybe even lower than that
N:I agree. It could mean savaka budha, or it could mean those susceptible to
instruction.
Nina. 






>
 
 
687
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)substitutes

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much. It is useful to learn more notions of grammar, I will
need them when reading Buddhaghosa.
I have some problems here, but no need to answer soon. Things will also
become clearer as you continue with Kaccayana.
You said amoha bhaavaa is unusual, but I learnt that because of the metrum
we can find unusual forms and that words at the end may be shortened. I am
not sure whether bhaavaa is a shortened form of bhavanaa.
op 04-07-2003 18:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> 263 (265). pasatthassa so ca.
> sabbasseva pasatthasaddassa so aadeso hoti, jaadeso ca iya i.t.tha
> iccetesu paccayesu.
> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
> 
> 263 (Sinhalese 265). And 'sa' is the substitute of 'pasattha'
> (praised).
> Of just the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'sa' and
> 'ja' before these affixes: iya, i.t.tha.
> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
N: The notion substitute, aadeso, is not clear to me. What does it replace?
It replaces something?
sa and jo: where is sa? Jo we find in seyyo and jeyyo, elder (jiiyaati: to
become old). ja in iya, but also in i.t.tha, desired?

J: 262. vu.d.dhassa jo iyi.t.thesu.
> 'ja' is the substitute of vu.d.dha (old, aged) before iya & i.t.tha.
> 
> "And 'sa'" means that 'ja' is included here also while 'sa' is
> excluded from 262.
N: I did not get this.
J: Here's the Sinhalese version:
> 
> sabbassa pasatthasaddassa so aadeso ca hoti jo aadeso ca iya i.t.tha
> iccetesu paccayesu paresu. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena
> pasatthoti seyyo. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena pasatthoti
> se.t.tho. jeyyo, je.t.tho. casaddaggaha.na.m
> dutiyaaadesasampi.n.danattha.m.
> 
> Of the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'ja' as well as
> 'ja' before these subsequent affixes: iya, i.t.tha.
> 
> "seyyo" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised in
> particular.
> 
> "se.t.tho" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised
> in particular.
> 
> jeyyo, je.t.tho.
> 
> The inclusion of the word 'ca' is for the sake of adding a second
> substitute ('ja').]
N: I follow the transl. word by word, but I do not get the contents. And the
same is said of seyyo and se.t.tho?
Thank you,
Nina.
 
 
688
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)substitutes

 
    Dear Nina,

<< Thank you very much. It is useful to learn more notions of grammar,
I will need them when reading Buddhaghosa. >>

I'm sure that what we learn from the old grammars will be of great
help in our reading of the texts and commentaries and solving many of
the problems we're constantly faced with.

<< I have some problems here, but no need to answer soon. Things will
also become clearer as you continue with Kaccayana.
You said amoha bhaavaa is unusual, but I learnt that because of the
metrum we can find unusual forms and that words at the end may be
shortened. I am not sure whether bhaavaa is a shortened form of
bhavanaa. >>

Although it seems possible that 'bhaava' could be a shortened form, we
need to confirm this by finding something in the commentaries for
support (and it doesn't have to go with amoha). I thought of looking
under 'asammohabhaava' and found an 'asammohabhaavasiddhito' in the
Itivuttaka commentary (Itv-a I 33) for which there is still no English
translation available. There are also a few occurrences of
'amohabhaava' in the Mohavicchedanii (1) and the
Nettivibhaavinii-.tiikaa (2). The latter seems to be explaining
'amohabhaavaa' with 'amohabhaavena'. Also of interest are the 7
meanings of 'bhaava' given in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (807):
padattha, sattaa (existence), adhippaaya, kriyaa, sabhaava, liilaa,
purisitthindriya (purisa-itthi-indriya). Now 'kriyaa' (activity,
function) might suit: 'and (by understanding) the meaning through the
activity/action of non-confusion or non-bewilderment regarding the
letters and words' which might be a good compromise. I think moha
neatly describes our state of mind (a lot of the time) when trying to
read the Pali and hopefully a study of Kaccayana, etc. will go a long
way in helping.

<< op 04-07-2003 18:36 schreef Jim Anderson op
jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> 263 (265). pasatthassa so ca.
> sabbasseva pasatthasaddassa so aadeso hoti, jaadeso ca iya i.t.tha
> iccetesu paccayesu.
> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
>
> 263 (Sinhalese 265). And 'sa' is the substitute of 'pasattha'
> (praised).
> Of just the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'sa' and
> 'ja' before these affixes: iya, i.t.tha.
> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
N: The notion substitute, aadeso, is not clear to me. What does it
replace? It replaces something? sa and jo: where is sa? Jo we find in
seyyo and jeyyo, elder (jiiyaati: to become old). ja in iya, but also
in i.t.tha, desired?

J: It replaces the entire word 'pasattha'. My translations tend to be
rather literal but have the advantage of making it easier to follow
the Pali. To understand many of these rules, one has to have some
familiarity with the rules of interpretation (paribhaasaa). The use of
the genitive case in 'pasatthassa' implies that 'of pasattha' is to be
interpreted as 'in the room/place of 'pasattha''. So now instead of
'pasattha' we have only 'sa' or 'ja' to which are directly added the
affix 'iya' or 'i.t.tha'. Sandhi is involved here: a + i > e, but I'd
have to look for a rule explaining the addition of the extra 'y' as in
seyya. The 'sa' and 'ja' are contained in the first two letters eg.
seyya (from sa+iya). It looks as though the 'ja' (Skt. jya) is related
to the root 'ji' as in jiiyati but note that jeyya and je.t.tha
can also have the same meaning as seyya, se.t.tha. The 'sa' (Skt.
"sra) may similarly be related to siri ("sri) as I saw in Warder on
comparison.

> J: 262. vu.d.dhassa jo iyi.t.thesu.
> 'ja' is the substitute of vu.d.dha (old, aged) before iya & i.t.tha.
>
> "And 'sa'" means that 'ja' is included here also while 'sa' is
> excluded from 262.
N: I did not get this.

J: The 'And' means that we include 'ja' from the previous sutta. Jeyya
and je.t.tha can also mean 'better' or 'best' since 'ja' can also be
substituted for 'pasattha'.

J: Here's the Sinhalese version:
>
> sabbassa pasatthasaddassa so aadeso ca hoti jo aadeso ca iya i.t.tha
> iccetesu paccayesu paresu. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena

> pasatthoti seyyo. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena
> pasatthoti se.t.tho. jeyyo, je.t.tho. casaddaggaha.na.m
> dutiyaaadesasampi.n.danattha.m.
>
> Of the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'ja' as well
> as 'ja' before these subsequent affixes: iya, i.t.tha.

J: hmm... just noticed another mistake. The first 'ja' should have
been 'sa'.

> "seyyo" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised
> in particular.
>
> "se.t.tho" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is
> praised in particular.

J: "all these that are praised;" was changed to "all these are
praised;"

> jeyyo, je.t.tho.
>
> The inclusion of the word 'ca' is for the sake of adding a second
> substitute ('ja').]
N: I follow the transl. word by word, but I do not get the contents.
And the same is said of seyyo and se.t.tho?

J: I hope my corrections helped. Sorry for the confusion. Let me know
if you need further clarification. As I have done with this sutta, I
think it might be a good idea to freely move around the grammar as
needed while at the same time continuing the numerical sequence of the
rules 1, 2, 3, etc. more slowly and in greater detail. I've been
studying up on the word 'attho', the first word of Kc 1. The meaning
that it has in this sutta is not a problem but when I look at the
other meanings and the several derivations it has, I get confused. I
found an interesting commentary on it at Spk II 334 giving six
meanings with examples, so that's a good start. I find there is a
clash between what I'm reading in the texts and how modern
lexicographers and translators are handling the word. One meaning of
'attha' that is of interest to me is 'kaara.na' (cause) which is often
used to explain other words (eg. nimitta, pariyaaya) in the
commentaries and one that gives me some difficulty. I'm aware of a
threefold kaara.na which includes ~naapaka-kaara.na (an informing
cause). I hope to post more on this later. I'm taking tomorrow
(Monday) off from the computer.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
689
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 1:02pm
Subject: Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)substitutes

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you for all your explanations.
op 07-07-2003 00:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
Now 'kriyaa' (activity,
> function) might suit: 'and (by understanding) the meaning through the
> activity/action of non-confusion or non-bewilderment regarding the
> letters and words' which might be a good compromise. I think moha
> neatly describes our state of mind (a lot of the time) when trying to
> read the Pali and hopefully a study of Kaccayana, etc. will go a long
> way in helping.
N: I like your remark.

>> 263 (265). pasatthassa so ca.
>> sabbasseva pasatthasaddassa so aadeso hoti, jaadeso ca iya i.t.tha
>> iccetesu paccayesu.
>> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
>> 
>> 263 (Sinhalese 265). And 'sa' is the substitute of 'pasattha'
>> (praised).
>> Of just the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'sa' and
>> 'ja' before these affixes: iya, i.t.tha.
>> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
> 
> J: It replaces the entire word 'pasattha'.
N: I still do not understand the purpose of replacing. Why does pasattha
have to be replaced by sa and ja? There must be some reason. I need to know,
otherwise I cannot understand all the following passages.
j: . I've been
> studying up on the word 'attho', the first word of Kc 1.
N: That is a coincidence, I pondered on this word, translating the verse on
lobha in the co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. When it is together with dhamma,
I think of cause and effect. As you know this is treated in the Netti, and
in the Vibhanga under the patisambidhas, the four discriminations. As you
say, interpretation is very important.
Nina.
 
 
690
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)substitutes

 
    Dear Nina,

> J: It replaces the entire word 'pasattha'.
N: I still do not understand the purpose of replacing. Why does
pasattha have to be replaced by sa and ja? There must be some reason.
I need to know, otherwise I cannot understand all the following
passages.

J: I don't know how best to give you a good reason for this.
'pasattha' doesn't have to be replaced by 'sa' or 'ja' as the form
'pasatthatara' is also seen in commentaries and grammars but
apparently not in the Tipitaka. I look at it as an essential part of
an explanation of how the word 'seyyo', etc. is derived. Otherwise, I
think it would be rather difficult or impossible to know for sure
where these words came from merely by looking at them. An association
with 'pasattha' also helps to give a clear meaning.

Much of the grammar is focussed on the formation of words and you will
very often see this phenomenon of aadesa or substitution of letters
(and occasionally words) throughout and so it's important to
understand the concept. The word 'aadesa' (pointing at) would be worth
investigating at a later time to find out what 'pointing at' and
'substitution' have in common. The related verb 'aadisati' is
interesting as I once came across its use in the Petavatthu in
relation to the origins of the transference of merit idea. I remember
P. Masefield translated it as 'assigns' which I liked.

j: . I've been
> studying up on the word 'attho', the first word of Kc 1.
N: That is a coincidence, I pondered on this word, translating the
verse on lobha in the co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. When it is
together with dhamma, I think of cause and effect. As you know this is
treated in the Netti, and in the Vibhanga under the patisambidhas, the
four discriminations. As you say, interpretation is very important.
Nina.

J: Yes, I very much like that fivefold explanation of attha and dhamma
in Pa.tis-a. and elsewhere. In the Treatise on Knowledge in Pa.tis,
you will see many words ending in -a.t.tha which ~Naa.namoli
translates as 'meaning', but I have long wondered about this as the
commentarial explanation of '~nata.t.the naa.na.m' (knowledge of the
meaning of what-is-known -- p.4), for instance, has: ~nata.t.the
~naa.nan ti jaananasabhaava.m ~naa.na.m -- Pa.tis-a I 35. I have been
thinking that 'sabhaava' (nature) could here be the interpretation of
'a.t.tha' (eg. knowledge pertaining to the nature of the
known/knowing) but because of the fact that 'sabhaava.m' doesn't end
in an -e as in -a.t.the, this may not be so. However, I recently came
across a meaning of 'attha' explicitly stated as 'sabhaava' in the
.tiikaa to the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (Abh-.t) which I thought was
interesting. I take the 'attha' of paramattha to mean gocara or visaya
(the latter is given in the same .tiikaa s.v. attha).

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
691
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 2:27pm
Subject: Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)substitutes

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much, now I better understand. I find it only strange that
the large word pasattha is represented by small particles like sa and ja. No
connection of stem between them.
Your remarks on attha are worth considering,
Nina. 
op 09-07-2003 02:33 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Much of the grammar is focussed on the formation of words and you will
> very often see this phenomenon of aadesa or substitution of letters
> (and occasionally words) throughout and so it's important to
> understand the concept. The word 'aadesa' (pointing at) would be worth
> investigating at a later time to find out what 'pointing at' and
> 'substitution' have in common.
 
 
692
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:32pm
Subject: Kc 1

 
    [pa.thamaka.n.da]

The First Section.

[The Sandhi Chapter consists of five sections with a total of 51
suttas or rules, each accompanied by a commentary or vutti. The first
section consists of 11 suttas.]

1. attho akkharasa~n~naato.
sabbavacanaanamattho akkhareheva sa~n~naayate. akkharavipattiya.m hi
atthassa dunnayataa hoti, tasmaa akkharakosalla.m bahuupakaara.m
suttantesu.

1. The meaning is correctly known through the letters.
The meaning of all expressions is correctly known only through the
letters. For in a mistake with letters there is a wrong conveying of
the meaning, therefore skilfulness with letters is of much help in the
discourses.

Notes:
1) I will be presenting comments from other grammars whenever
these offer some additional helpful information in understanding a
grammatical sutta. The Ruupasiddhi (aka Padaruupasiddhi or
Mahaaruupasiddhi) by Buddhappiya is of particular interest because it
is based on Kaccayana's grammar and comes with a .tiikaa, also by
Buddhappiya. I will refer to these two texts as Ruup & Ruup-.t,
respectively.

2) attho (meaning). Ruup-.t derives: ariiyati ~naayatii (it is known)
ti attho (p. 315). The Kaccaayaana-Dhaatuma~njuusaa is a versified
list of 884 roots with their meanings. In it is found: ara naase gate
ca (365) in the bhuvaadi class. The 'gate' meaning (to go,
move)applies here. I'm currently involved in a long and detailed study
of 'attha' and will post a separate article on this when I'm finished.
There is a passage in the Saddaniti which explains 'gati' with regards
to knowing and I will have more on this later. Kc 660 on the affix
'tha' derives 'attha' from the root 'as' (to exist) and gives the
following etymology or nibbacana: "saddaanuruupa.m asati bhavatiiti
attho". I'm a little puzzled by 'asati' as the usual form for the 3rd
sing. is 'atthi'.

3) Ruup-.t: akkharehi sammaa ~naayatiiti akkharasa~n~naato. The
'sammaa' (correctly) is the meaning here of the prefix 'sa~n-' (=
sa.m).

4) Ruup-.t has an excellent commentary on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, &
pa.tivedha and shows how they're related to each other. It's the best
I've seen so far and I hope to present this passage with a translation
later on.

5) While I was pondering on Kc 660, I noticed a footnote to 'attho'
which reads: a.m 1.60 referring to Anguttarnikaaya, Vol. 1, p.60
(Burmese edn.) which corresponds to PTS A I 58-9 (GS i p. 53). It's in
the Book of Twos, the last two suttas of the 2nd vagga. I couldn't
believe what I was reading as it directly relates to Kc 1. There is
even a 'dunnayo' which compares to the 'dunnayataa' in the above
vutti. I think these two tiny suttas along with its short
a.t.thakathaa and .tiikaa would be well-worth translating for our
Kaccayana studies because of its relevance and connection with the
Buddha.

6) This study of Kc 1 has only just begun and I think it'll be awhile
before I'm ready to move on to Kc 2. More to follow...

Best wishes,
Jim
 
 
693
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:33pm
Subject: Re: Kc 1

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much, appreciating the trouble you took.
op 16-07-2003 03:32 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
....The Kaccaayaana-Dhaatuma~njuusaa is a versified
> list of 884 roots with their meanings. In it is found: ara naase gate
> ca (365) in the bhuvaadi class.
N: I forgot what the bhuvaadi class is.
J: I'm currently involved in a long and detailed study
> of 'attha' and will post a separate article on this when I'm finished.
> There is a passage in the Saddaniti which explains 'gati' with regards
> to knowing and I will have more on this later. Kc 660 on the affix
> 'tha' derives 'attha' from the root 'as' (to exist) and gives the
> following etymology or nibbacana: "saddaanuruupa.m asati bhavatiiti
> attho". I'm a little puzzled by 'asati' as the usual form for the 3rd
> sing. is 'atthi'.
N: Is this a possibility: Warder Ch 21, p. 169: sati can be locative. And
Warder Ch 16, p. 104: upaadaane kho sati... Thus: In the case of there being
attachment..
And so also: asati: when there is not.. But I do not know this fits the
context. 
Nina.
 
 
694
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Kc 1

 
    Dear Nina,

<< Dear Jim,
Thank you very much, appreciating the trouble you took.
op 16-07-2003 03:32 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
....The Kaccaayaana-Dhaatuma~njuusaa is a versified
> list of 884 roots with their meanings. In it is found: ara naase
> gate ca (365) in the bhuvaadi class.
N: I forgot what the bhuvaadi class is.

J:The bhuvaadi (bhuu-aadi) class or group (ga.na) is the largest group
of verbal roots of which 'bhuu' is the first root listed. Altogether
there are seven main classes of roots in Kaccayana's system: I
bhuvaadi, II rudhaadi, III divaadi, IV svaadi (su), V kiyaadi (kii),
VI tanaadi, VII curaadi. Aggava.msa's system is similar except that he
includes an additional class: gahaadi, between V & VI. These classes
get their names from the first root listed in each. The differences
are due to the kind of vikara.na affix (paccaya) that is added
directly to the root in the formation of verbs. The vikara.na affix of
the bhuvaadi class of verbal roots is, for instance, simply 'a' -- eg.
bhuu+a > bhava-. The second largest class is the last one (curaadi)
with the vikara.na affix 'e' or 'aya'. In Pali we would name the
classes as follows: bhuvaadiga.no, rudhaadiga.no, etc.

> J: I'm currently involved in a long and detailed study
> of 'attha' and will post a separate article on this when I'm
finished.
> There is a passage in the Saddaniti which explains 'gati' with
regards
> to knowing and I will have more on this later. Kc 660 on the affix
> 'tha' derives 'attha' from the root 'as' (to exist) and gives the
> following etymology or nibbacana: "saddaanuruupa.m asati bhavatiiti
> attho". I'm a little puzzled by 'asati' as the usual form for the
> 3rd sing. is 'atthi'.
N: Is this a possibility: Warder Ch 21, p. 169: sati can be locative.
And Warder Ch 16, p. 104: upaadaane kho sati... Thus: In the case of
there being attachment..
And so also: asati: when there is not.. But I do not know this fits
the context. >>

J: Thanks, but I doubt this fits the context. I checked Aggava.msa and
saw no alternative 'asati' for 'atthi'. There is a verb 'asati' (he
eats) but that certainly wouldn't fit here. I also checked the
Sinhalese version of Kaccayana's grammar and found that it doesn't
include the etymologies as in the Burmese version. I'm not going to
bother much more with this for awhile.

Jim
 
 
695
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Kc 1

 
    Dear Jim,
thank you very much for explaining. These classes will become clearer when I
see more examples as we go along, especially the affixes. Complicated.
op 17-07-2003 03:23 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> 
> J:The bhuvaadi (bhuu-aadi) class or group (ga.na) is the largest group
> of verbal roots of which 'bhuu' is the first root listed.
I looked up the Ang text, and a similar one in Netti(English p. 35). A
footnote in the following para about Ruupasidhi: about how syllables are
produced, pronunciation.
Nina.
 
 
696
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:44am
Subject: L.S. Cousins & the dating of texts

 
    Dear All (especially Nina),

I very seldom write to Buddha-L but yesterday I decided to respond to
some point in a discussion between L.S. Cousins and Stephen Hodge.
I'm forwarding this response from L.S. Cousins who doesn't think that
the doctrine of the 3 parinibbaanas could be pre-Asokan for the
reasons he gives. The response is also interesting because it relates
to the discussion we had earlier on the dating of Pali texts. This is
how a well-respected modern scholar views it. Also worth noting is his
earlier dating of Buddhaghosa (4th cent.).

Jim

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:23:32 +0100
From: "L.S. Cousins" <selwyn@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Tathagata-garbha

Jim Anderson writes:
>Could not the commentary on the three parinibbaanas in the Pali
>a.t.thakathas possibly be pre-Asokan? References: Sv III 899; Ps IV
>116; Mp I 91; Vibh-a 433. Even though these commentaries are
>Buddhaghosa's (5th cent. CE), I believe they contain a great deal
from
>pre-Asokan times. The three parinibbaanas are:
>kilesaparinibbaana, khandhaparinibbaana, dhaatuparinibbaana.

This commentarial account is given in the Agama.t.thakathaa of
Buddhaghosa (probably fourth century A.D.) and in the Abhidhamma
commentary (probably the work of a contemporary). I have no problem
in supposing that this derives from earlier commentaries. There is
good reason to believe that these earlier commentaries were closed by
the second century A.D. at the latest; so dating the account of the
three parinibbnas to the first century A.D. is not problematic for
me. I doubt that they could be much earlier than that. Earlier texts
never mention the story of the parinibbna of the relics when the
devas will say: 'today the Teacher parinibbnas. Today the
Dispensation comes to an end. Now we have the last sight (dassana)'.
If this story had been known, it would have been mentioned in the
last canonical texts or in such works as Milindapaha.

More generally, the term dhaatu in the sense of relic is probably not
found in the first four Nikaayas. The term we do meet is sariirani =
bodily remains (after cremation). But this is mainly in the
Mahaaparinibbaanasutta which itself must be post Asoka in its present
form because it knows the redistribution of the relics (under
Asoka?). In fact, this suttanta is obviously an anthology of mostly
pre-existent material; so some of it may well be pre-Asokan. Even so,
there is no reason to think that the small number of sections where
the bodily remains are mentioned are especially early. Rather they
are particularly likely to have been added.

Otherwise the first evidence for even the worship of stuupas is in
the inscriptions of Asoka who mentions the enlarging of the stuupa of
a past Buddha. So it is there then and presumably at least a
generation earlier. But there is no reason to suppose that it
predates the commemorative cult, utilizing what we might call
symbols. I mean such things as the wheel, the aasana (seat) or the
bodhi tree. I see no reason to suppose that any of these were
considered to contain any ongoing presence of the Buddha.

Lance Cousins
 
 
697
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:09am
Subject: Re: L.S. Cousins & the dating of texts

 
    Dear Jim,

Cousins mada some funny mistakes in that list like not agree about migadayo as a dear park but people have been there to prove that it is a dear park.
He put dhammapala as later in an article but only waited Masefield from udana com gave texts that udana com already mentioned anutika .


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:

Dear All (especially Nina),

I very seldom write to Buddha-L but yesterday I decided to respond to
some point in a discussion between L.S. Cousins and Stephen Hodge.
I'm forwarding this response from L.S. Cousins who doesn't think that
the doctrine of the 3 parinibbaanas could be pre-Asokan for the
reasons he gives. The response is also interesting because it relates
to the discussion we had earlier on the dating of Pali texts. This is
how a well-respected modern scholar views it. Also worth noting is his
earlier dating of Buddhaghosa (4th cent.).

Jim

Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:23:32 +0100
From: "L.S. Cousins" 
Subject: Re: Tathagata-garbha

Jim Anderson writes:
>Could not the commentary on the three parinibbaanas in the Pali
>a.t.thakathas possibly be pre-Asokan? References: Sv III 899; Ps IV
>116; Mp I 91; Vibh-a 433. Even though these commentaries are
>Buddhaghosa's (5th cent. CE), I believe they contain a great deal
from
>pre-Asokan times. The three parinibbaanas are:
>kilesaparinibbaana, khandhaparinibbaana, dhaatuparinibbaana.

This commentarial account is given in the Agama.t.thakathaa of
Buddhaghosa (probably fourth century A.D.) and in the Abhidhamma
commentary (probably the work of a contemporary). I have no problem
in supposing that this derives from earlier commentaries. There is
good reason to believe that these earlier commentaries were closed by
the second century A.D. at the latest; so dating the account of the
three parinibbnas to the first century A.D. is not problematic for
me. I doubt that they could be much earlier than that. Earlier texts
never mention the story of the parinibbna of the relics when the
devas will say: 'today the Teacher parinibbnas. Today the
Dispensation comes to an end. Now we have the last sight (dassana)'.
If this story had been known, it would have been mentioned in the
last canonical texts or in such works as Milindapaha.

More generally, the term dhaatu in the sense of relic is probably not
found in the first four Nikaayas. The term we do meet is sariirani =
bodily remains (after cremation). But this is mainly in the
Mahaaparinibbaanasutta which itself must be post Asoka in its present
form because it knows the redistribution of the relics (under
Asoka?). In fact, this suttanta is obviously an anthology of mostly
pre-existent material; so some of it may well be pre-Asokan. Even so,
there is no reason to think that the small number of sections where
the bodily remains are mentioned are especially early. Rather they
are particularly likely to have been added.

Otherwise the first evidence for even the worship of stuupas is in
the inscriptions of Asoka who mentions the enlarging of the stuupa of
a past Buddha. So it is there then and presumably at least a
generation earlier. But there is no reason to suppose that it
predates the commemorative cult, utilizing what we might call
symbols. I mean such things as the wheel, the aasana (seat) or the
bodhi tree. I see no reason to suppose that any of these were
considered to contain any ongoing presence of the Buddha.

Lance Cousins






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
698
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:24am
Subject: Re: L.S. Cousins & the dating of texts

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you, it is good if you now and then frwd an interesting discussion
from another list.
The Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis) mentions after the
three kinds of disappearance: the three kinds of parinibbana. As to the
third it is explained that all the relics will go to the Great Wisdom Seat :
"Heaped up on the Great Wisdom Seat, they will become one solid mass like a
ppile of gold and will emit six-coloured rays..."
Last time we were in India someone read this text when sitting under the
Bodhi tree.
Is this perhaps the Abh Co cousins refers to? It is an important commentary.
Nina. 
op 28-07-2003 11:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:


> I'm forwarding this response from L.S. Cousins who doesn't think that
> the doctrine of the 3 parinibbaanas could be pre-Asokan for the
> reasons he gives.
 
 
699
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:31am
Subject: Re: L.S. Cousins & the dating of texts

 
    Dear Nina,

Yes, I think the Abhidhamma cty that Cousins mentions is the same one
(Vibh-a 433). Do you have a translation of the Thupava.msa? This text
contains quite a detailed history of what happened to the remains of
the Buddha, and I believe it has something to say about previous
Buddhas as well. For some Buddhas, the relics just stay in one place,
whereas in the case of Gotama, the relics get distributed far and
wide. I know of 4 stupas in North America that contain Buddha relics,
and I imagine the situation is similar in Europe and Australia. I
helped construct/reconstruct two of them in 1982 and saw a small
nugget of the relic before it was placed into the top of the stupa.
There was one curious incident I was thinking about yesterday where
there were several of us (mostly monks) near the stupa construction
site. The sayadaw handed us some very tiny pellets and we were each to
swallow one of them. I could never figure out what this was all about
until yesterday when I thought of the possibility that each pellet
could have contained a tiny dust-sized particle of a relic or it had
come into direct contact with the relic that went into the stupa. It
was a comforting thought to think of the possibility that there could
be a few atoms from the Buddha embedded in my bones!

It's going to be hard for me to respond to Lance's reply as I happen
to believe that the relics do possess some power. I also think that
the teaching of the 3 parinibbaanas is a very old one known to the
Buddha and the arahants who also would have recollected the same
phenomena during the times of previous Buddhas. Now, how do you
explain that to a group of sceptical academics?

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
> Thank you, it is good if you now and then frwd an interesting
discussion
> from another list.
> The Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis) mentions
after the
> three kinds of disappearance: the three kinds of parinibbana. As to
the
> third it is explained that all the relics will go to the Great
Wisdom Seat :
> "Heaped up on the Great Wisdom Seat, they will become one solid mass
like a
> ppile of gold and will emit six-coloured rays..."
> Last time we were in India someone read this text when sitting under
the
> Bodhi tree.
> Is this perhaps the Abh Co cousins refers to? It is an important
commentary.
> Nina.
> op 28-07-2003 11:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
>
>
> > I'm forwarding this response from L.S. Cousins who doesn't think
that
> > the doctrine of the 3 parinibbaanas could be pre-Asokan for the
> > reasons he gives.
>
>
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>
 
 
700
From: nina van gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 0:41am
Subject: Re: L.S. Cousins & the dating of texts

 
    Dear Jim,
op 29-07-2003 14:31 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> It's going to be hard for me to respond to Lance's reply as I happen
> to believe that the relics do possess some power. I also think that
> the teaching of the 3 parinibbaanas is a very old one known to the
> Buddha and the arahants who also would have recollected the same
> phenomena during the times of previous Buddhas. Now, how do you
> explain that to a group of sceptical academics?
N: Thank you for your impressive mail on the relics. Each time when in India
with Acharn Sujin we pay respect to the relics in Sarnath and these are put
on our heads by the head monk. He is very kind and gives us this opportunity
especially when we come together with Acharn Sujin. Generally they show the
relics to the public only once a year. We are always very impressed, the
relics are the only physical remains that is left of the Buddha. We pay
respect, but at the same time Acharn Sujin warns us not to cling, there can
easily be attachment, taking attachment for confidence and devotion.
Anumodana that you helped with the reconstruction of two stupas. I do not
have the Thupavamsa.
Sceptical academics should visit the holy places in India themselves, then
they may change their minds.
Nina.

[end of year 2003]