Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages)

Year 2002: Messages 441-611 (171) ; January 15 - November 6, 2002

441
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: a new member and an update

 
    Dear Members,

First, I'd like to welcome Suan who has just joined today as a new member of
our group which now stands at 15. I'm sure his wide knowledge of Pali and
his translations will be very helpful and much appreciated by all of us
here.

My plans to go away to Toronto for acupuncture treatments has been
postponed for at least another two months as advised by my acupuncture
doctor. So that leaves me with some extra time on hand to work on some more
contributions to psg. In view of the ongoing luminous mind thread on dsg,
Suan's recent postings of his translation of the commentary and
subcommentary on the white radiant mind, and the fact that I still have work
to do on many of Nina's translations previously posted, I think that I
should devote my attention for the next while to Suan's and Nina's
translations. I'll first begin with AN I.49 along with its com. and subcom.
and also review some of the work already done previously.

I have been working on the problem of how to present layers of texts in
order to make it easier for us to follow them for careful study. It's so
easy to get lost trying to sort out which phrasing a comment goes with
especially when you have 2 or 3 layers of commentaries! Here's an example
of what I think might work better for students of Pali:

AN 1.49> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
upakkilesehi upakkili.t.thanti.

nina> This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by
oncoming defilements.

suan> "Monks, this mind is radiant. And, that very mind is tarnished by
guest blots."

Mp> 49. navame pabhassaranti pa.n.dara.m parisuddha.m.

suan> 49. In the ninth statement, the term `radiant' signifies whiteness or
purity, and means complete cleanness.

Mp-p.t> 49. navame pabhassaranti pariyodaata.m sabhaavaparisuddha.t.thena.
tenaaha--'pa.n.dara.m parisuddhan'ti.

suan> 49. In the ninth statement, the expression `radiant' means complete
purity due to natural complete cleanness. That is why the commentator said
"pure, completely clean."

Mp> cittanti bhava"ngacitta.m.

suan> The term `mind' refers to the life-cause consciousness.

Mp> ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.

suan> How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't.

Mp-p.t> pabhassarataadayo naama va.n.nadhaatuya.m labbhanakavisesaati
aaha -- 'ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthii'ti?

suan> Because the qualities like radiance are attributes available in the
color element, the commentator posed the question "How could there be such
a thing as the color of the mind?"

I included Nina's early translation of the sutta but left out her
commentarial translations for now because I don't know where to look for her
latest corrected ones. I just put in Suan's translations as an example. The
translations of others could also be inserted for comparison. In order to
indicate the source I put a > at the end of an abbreviation or first name
(or initials) so as to avoid confusion. Mp refers to Manorathapuura.nii, the
name of the Anguttaranikaaya a.t.thakathaa. Mp-p.t is Dhammapaala's
Puraa.na.tiikaa on Mp. There is a later .tiikaa by Saariputta (12th cent.)
that goes by Mp-.t. The PTS has at least the first three volumes of this
later commentary published. I only have the first volume which covers to the
end of the first ten suttas only. I'm planning to order the volume
pertaining to AN I.49-52 which should be of interest for comparing with the
earlier .tiikaa.

Best wishes,
Jim


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442
From: amarachayabongse <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:24am
Subject: Re: a new member and an update

 
    Dear Jim, 

It's so great to hear from you again, 


And Hi, Suan, 

How are you?

Welcome to the group,


And everyone,

I thought you might be interested in what Robert Eddison posted today
on another list, about sunna, or 'Patisambhidamagga on Sabhaava &
Emptiness', at this URL: 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/message/27265>
which I think is a very useful, concise and comprehensive study.


Enjoy, and glad to restart the study of Pali translations, Jim,

Thank you and anumodana,

Amara


--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Members,
> 
> First, I'd like to welcome Suan who has just joined today as a new
member of
> our group which now stands at 15. I'm sure his wide knowledge of
Pali and
> his translations will be very helpful and much appreciated by all of us
> here.
> 
> My plans to go away to Toronto for acupuncture treatments has been
> postponed for at least another two months as advised by my acupuncture
> doctor. So that leaves me with some extra time on hand to work on
some more
> contributions to psg. In view of the ongoing luminous mind thread on
dsg,
> Suan's recent postings of his translation of the commentary and
> subcommentary on the white radiant mind, and the fact that I still
have work
> to do on many of Nina's translations previously posted, I think that I
> should devote my attention for the next while to Suan's and Nina's
> translations. I'll first begin with AN I.49 along with its com. and
subcom.
> and also review some of the work already done previously.
> 
> I have been working on the problem of how to present layers of texts in
> order to make it easier for us to follow them for careful study. It's so
> easy to get lost trying to sort out which phrasing a comment goes with
> especially when you have 2 or 3 layers of commentaries! Here's an
example
> of what I think might work better for students of Pali:
> 
> AN 1.49> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
> upakkilesehi upakkili.t.thanti.
> 
> nina> This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed
corrupted by
> oncoming defilements.
> 
> suan> "Monks, this mind is radiant. And, that very mind is tarnished by
> guest blots."
> 
> Mp> 49. navame pabhassaranti pa.n.dara.m parisuddha.m.
> 
> suan> 49. In the ninth statement, the term `radiant' signifies
whiteness or
> purity, and means complete cleanness.
> 
> Mp-p.t> 49. navame pabhassaranti pariyodaata.m
sabhaavaparisuddha.t.thena.
> tenaaha--'pa.n.dara.m parisuddhan'ti.
> 
> suan> 49. In the ninth statement, the expression `radiant' means
complete
> purity due to natural complete cleanness. That is why the
commentator said
> "pure, completely clean."
> 
> Mp> cittanti bhava"ngacitta.m.
> 
> suan> The term `mind' refers to the life-cause consciousness.
> 
> Mp> ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.
> 
> suan> How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't.
> 
> Mp-p.t> pabhassarataadayo naama va.n.nadhaatuya.m labbhanakavisesaati
> aaha -- 'ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthii'ti?
> 
> suan> Because the qualities like radiance are attributes available
in the
> color element, the commentator posed the question "How could there
be such
> a thing as the color of the mind?"
> 
> I included Nina's early translation of the sutta but left out her
> commentarial translations for now because I don't know where to look
for her
> latest corrected ones. I just put in Suan's translations as an
example. The
> translations of others could also be inserted for comparison. In
order to
> indicate the source I put a > at the end of an abbreviation or first
name
> (or initials) so as to avoid confusion. Mp refers to
Manorathapuura.nii, the
> name of the Anguttaranikaaya a.t.thakathaa. Mp-p.t is Dhammapaala's
> Puraa.na.tiikaa on Mp. There is a later .tiikaa by Saariputta (12th
cent.)
> that goes by Mp-.t. The PTS has at least the first three volumes of this
> later commentary published. I only have the first volume which
covers to the
> end of the first ten suttas only. I'm planning to order the volume
> pertaining to AN I.49-52 which should be of interest for comparing
with the
> earlier .tiikaa.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
443
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:02pm
Subject: Re: thanks for support

 
    op 16-01-2002 01:10 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca
> 
> First, I'd like to welcome Suan who has just joined today as a new member of
> our group which now stands at 15. I'm sure his wide knowledge of Pali and
> his translations will be very helpful and much appreciated by all of us
> here.

I think that I
. I'm planning to order the volume
> pertaining to AN I.49-52 which should be of interest for comparing with the
> earlier .tiikaa.

Dear Jim, I am really very grateful that you can help with these challenging
texts, and I appreciate Suan's kindness to join ps in order to support us as
well. This is all very good news.
Maybe it is easier for you to paste again my translation of Mp. which I
corrected after your remarks and corrections. Only the last part was not
corrected yet. 
As to M-p.t. , I posted this to you before, but now I can make more
corrections because of Suan's translation. Especially at the end I go wrong,
what do you think about this? It will be very interesting to see the later
Tika of Sariputta, I am thrilled. But the more modern Pali is very
difficult. Many thanks and best wishes from Nina.

@at.t.hakathaa

49. navame pabhassaranti pa.n.dara.m parisuddha.m. cittanti
bhava"ngacitta.m. ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.

N: As to the ninth (?), luminous. Luminous is clear, pure. citta is the
life-continuum. But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, it
does not. 

niilaadiina~nhi a~n~natarava.n.na.m vaa hotu ava.n.na.m vaa ya.mki~nci
parisuddhataaya ``pabhassara''nti vuccati.

N: For anything which may be a certain colour, beginning with blue, or
without colour, is called luminous because of its purity.

idampi nirupakkilesataaya
parisuddhanti pabhassara.m. ta~nca khoti ta.m bhava"ngacitta.m.

N: It is also pure, because it is unsoiled (by defilements); thus luminous.
That indeed, meaning, that life-continuum.

aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi.

N:  by oncoming (defilements). by those that are not conascent with it,
but arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana).

upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkili.t.thattaa upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati
vuccati.

N: by defilements. By being soiled by desire etc. it is indeed called
defiled. 

katha.m? yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro
vaa aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaana.m duraacaaraana.m
avattasampannaana.m puttaana~nceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaana~nca vasena
``attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti na
sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii''ti ava.n.na.m akitti.m labhanti,
eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m.

N: How is that so? For, as parents, teachers or preceptors, of good conduct,
possessed of good behaviour, because of the children, pupils or co-residents
of bad conduct, misbehhaved, disobedient, receive dispraise or disapproval
thus,  they neither instill awe to, nor discipline, admonish or exhort
their own children, their pupils, their co-residents, evenso should this
(bhavangacitta) having a similar consequence be understood.

aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro viya ca
aacariyupajjhaayaa viya ca bhava"ngacitta.m da.t.thabba.m,

N: Just as parents, teachers, preceptors, who are of good conduct, evenso
the life-continuum should be seen,

puttaadiina.m
vasena tesa.m akittilaabho viya javanakkha.ne
rajjanadussanamuyhanasabhaavaana.m lobhasahagataadiina.m cittaana.m vasena
uppannehi aagantukehi upakkilesehi pakatiparisuddhampi bhava"ngacitta.m
upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotiiti.

N: Just as the acquirement of a bad name for them, through the children
etc., evenso, because of the cittas that are of a nature of defilement,
corruption and infatuation, accompanied by desire and so on, arising at the
moments of impulsion, evenso is also the life-continuum, that is by nature
pure, indeed soiled, by the oncoming defilements that have arisen.
50. dasamepi bhava"ngacittameva citta.m.

N: With reference to the tenth, consciousness is also the life-continuum.

vippamuttanti javanakkha.ne
arajjamaana.m adussamaana.m amuyhamaana.m
tihetuka~naa.nasampayuttaadikusalavasena uppajjamaana.m
aagantukehi upakkilesehi vippamutta.m naama hoti.

N: Freed: because of wholesomeness arising at the time of impulsion,
without defilements, corruptions and infatuations, and because consciousness
is accompanied by three wholesome roots, accompanied by wisdom, and thus it
is indeed freed of the arising of oncoming defilements.

idhaapi yathaa
siilavantaana.m aacaarasampannaana.m puttaadiina.m vasena maataadayo
``sobhanaa eteyeva attano puttakaadayo sikkhaapenti ovadanti
anusaasantii''ti va.n.nakittilaabhino honti, eva.m javanakkha.ne
uppannakusalacittavasena ida.m bhava"ngacitta.m aagantukehi upakkilesehi
vippamuttanti vuccatiiti.

N: Here also, just as parents etc., with virtuous conduct, possessed with
good behaviour, because of their children, etc. , acquire praise and
approval, thus,  they train, encourage, admonish their own children that
these things are indeed wholesome , evenso because of the arising of
wholesome consciousness at the time of impulsion, that life-continuum is
said to be freed of oncoming defilements.

*******
 
444
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 17, 2002 11:26pm
Subject: Re: thanks for support

 
    Dear Nina,

Dear Jim, I am really very grateful that you can help with these challenging
texts, and I appreciate Suan's kindness to join ps in order to support us as
well. This is all very good news.
Maybe it is easier for you to paste again my translation of Mp. which I
corrected after your remarks and corrections. Only the last part was not
corrected yet.
As to M-p.t. , I posted this to you before, but now I can make more
corrections because of Suan's translation. Especially at the end I go wrong,
what do you think about this? It will be very interesting to see the later
Tika of Sariputta, I am thrilled. But the more modern Pali is very
difficult. Many thanks and best wishes from Nina.

Jim: It's great to hear from you! Thank-you for including your corrected
translation of the commentary. I've just finished cutting and pasting both
yours and Suan's translation of the commentary and subcommentary on AN
1.49 along with the Pali into a single document. I thought this could serve
as a master copy that could eventually be uploaded to the files section of
the palistudy homepage providing it's okay with you and Suan. I'm planning
to put in own my translation as well. It might make it easier for you (and
for me) if you revise your translation directly on this document which you
could then return to me when finished. Just let me know if you'd like it
sent to you. Or we could just leave the uncorrected subcommentary
translation you sent in last November as it is and you could revise it later
after I check through it. The document would normally be available whenever
any one of us translators wishes to make some changes to our own
translation. I thought it might be useful for translators and
non-translators alike to compare different translations side by side with
the Pali.

It may be awhile before I order Sariputta's tika as I'm going to be moving
around in the near future and not around to pick up books at the postoffice.
Hopefully, later on in the year.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
445
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jan 18, 2002 1:07pm
Subject: Re: adding corrections

 
    op 18-01-2002 05:26 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Jim: It's great to hear from you! Thank-you for including your corrected
> translation of the commentary. I've just finished cutting and pasting both
> yours and Suan's translation of the commentary and subcommentary on AN
> 1.49 along with the Pali into a single document. I thought this could serve
> as a master copy that could eventually be uploaded to the files section of
> the palistudy homepage providing it's okay with you and Suan.

Dear Jim, Yes I think it is a good idea. Thank you for all the trouble.

J.>I'm planning
> to put in own my translation as well. It might make it easier for you (and
> for me) if you revise your translation directly on this document which you
> could then return to me when finished. Just let me know if you'd like it
> sent to you. 

N.> Yes, I like to revise now the M-p.t. translation, comparing it with
Suan's, and trying to eliminate some of my coarse mistakes. If you send the
doc to me I can add these corrections. I shall do just what is easiest for
you. I have some expressions that are difficult, and shall I list these
separately? 
With appreciation, Nina.
 
446
From: abhidhammika <abhidhammika@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sat Jan 19, 2002 8:51am
Subject: Re: thanks for support: It is Okay With Suan

 
    Dear Jim and Nina

How are you?

Jim wrote:

"I thought this could serve as a master copy that could eventually be 
uploaded to the files section of the palistudy homepage providing 
it's okay with you and Suan."

Suan: It is okay with me. Not only this time, this permission also 
applies to my future postings as well.

With best wishes,

Suan

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
> 
> Dear Jim, I am really very grateful that you can help with these 
challenging
> texts, and I appreciate Suan's kindness to join ps in order to 
support us as
> well. This is all very good news.
> Maybe it is easier for you to paste again my translation of Mp. 
which I
> corrected after your remarks and corrections. Only the last part 
was not
> corrected yet.
> As to M-p.t. , I posted this to you before, but now I can make more
> corrections because of Suan's translation. Especially at the end I 
go wrong,
> what do you think about this? It will be very interesting to see 
the later
> Tika of Sariputta, I am thrilled. But the more modern Pali is very
> difficult. Many thanks and best wishes from Nina.
> 
> Jim: It's great to hear from you! Thank-you for including your 
corrected
> translation of the commentary. I've just finished cutting and 
pasting both
> yours and Suan's translation of the commentary and subcommentary on 
AN
> 1.49 along with the Pali into a single document. I thought this 
could serve
> as a master copy that could eventually be uploaded to the files 
section of
> the palistudy homepage providing it's okay with you and Suan. I'm 
planning
> to put in own my translation as well. It might make it easier for 
you (and
> for me) if you revise your translation directly on this document 
which you
> could then return to me when finished. Just let me know if you'd 
like it
> sent to you. Or we could just leave the uncorrected subcommentary
> translation you sent in last November as it is and you could revise 
it later
> after I check through it. The document would normally be available 
whenever
> any one of us translators wishes to make some changes to our own
> translation. I thought it might be useful for translators and
> non-translators alike to compare different translations side by 
side with
> the Pali.
> 
> It may be awhile before I order Sariputta's tika as I'm going to be 
moving
> around in the near future and not around to pick up books at the 
postoffice.
> Hopefully, later on in the year.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

447
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: thanks for support: It is Okay With Suan

 
    Dear Suan,

>Suan: It is okay with me. Not only this time, this permission also
>applies to my future postings as well.

Thank-you very much for your permission and please feel free to post your
translations here anytime.

I'll probably be asking you many questions about your recent translation of
the commentary and subcommentary on AN I.49 and I'm looking forward to
your sub-subcommentary which should be helpful. I have a few questions to
start with. When you translate 'navame' as 'In the ninth statement' does
'statement' here stand for 'sutte' (understood)? Why do you choose 'brown'
for 'niila'? I have not seen that colour for niila in any of the
dictionaries I've looked up so far. The colours listed have been blue, dark
blue, blue-black, blue-green. I'm interested in your translation of
'bhavanga' as 'life-cause'. I know that 'anga' can have the meaning of hetu
or kaara.na. I've tried searching for a definition of bhavanga on the CSCD
but haven't found anything so far. Do you know where I could find such a
definition in the commentaries? Nyanatiloka in his Buddhist Dictionary
says:"...is explained in the Abhidhamma-commentaries as the foundation or
cause (kaara.na) of existence (bhava),..." p.33 but gives no references.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
448
From: abhidhammika <abhidhammika@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 10:06am
Subject: Jim's Questions Addressed

 
    Dear Jim

How are you?

Jim asked:

"When you translate 'navame' as 'In the ninth statement' does
'statement' here stand for 'sutte' (understood)?"

Suan: As you might have noticed, Ekakanipaata, Anguttara Nikaayo, 
comes with groups (vaggaa)containing unitary statements. So 'navame' 
refers to the ninth statement in the fifth group. I am not sure if we 
could call it a suttam in the normal sense, but we could certainly 
treat it as a suttam statement because Anguttatra Nikaayo belongs to 
the Suttam Pitaka.


Jim asked:

"Why do you choose 'brown' for 'niila'? I have not seen that colour 
for niila in any of the dictionaries I've looked up so far. The 
colours listed have been blue, dark blue, blue-black, blue-green."

Suan: I chose "brown" for "niila" as found in a Pali-Myanmar 
dictionary I have. Yes, it gives three colors: brown, green-brown, 
and blue. But, Myanmar Sayadaws including Mahasi Sayadaw consistently 
translate "niila" as "brown". So I follows suit.

The Pali-Myanmar dictionary I refer to is called "Padatthamajuusaa", 
and compiled by U Hoat Sein, a great Chinese Pali scholar, who first 
planned to compile a Pali-English dictionary, but later changed his 
mind when Pali Text Society published their PTS dictionary. 

Jim: "I'm interested in your translation of 'bhavanga' as 'life-
cause'. I know that 'anga' can have the meaning of hetu or kaara.na. 
I've tried searching for a definition of bhavanga on the CSCD but 
haven't found anything so far. Do you know where I could find such a 
definition in the commentaries? Nyanatiloka in his Buddhist 
Dictionary says:"...is explained in the Abhidhamma-commentaries as 
the foundation or cause (kaara.na) of existence" 

Suan: I merely gave one of the lateral meanings (live-component and 
life-cause) of "bhavanga". I haven't come across the commentary 
explanation. As soon as I found one, I will let you know. 


With regards,

Suan


--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> 
> >Suan: It is okay with me. Not only this time, this permission also
> >applies to my future postings as well.
> 
> Thank-you very much for your permission and please feel free to 
post your
> translations here anytime.
> 
> I'll probably be asking you many questions about your recent 
translation of
> the commentary and subcommentary on AN I.49 and I'm looking forward 
to
> your sub-subcommentary which should be helpful. I have a few 
questions to
> start with. 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
449
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed

 
    Dear Suan,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Please read on for
my comments.

Jim asked:

"When you translate 'navame' as 'In the ninth statement' does
'statement' here stand for 'sutte' (understood)?"

Suan: As you might have noticed, Ekakanipaata, Anguttara Nikaayo,
comes with groups (vaggaa)containing unitary statements. So 'navame'
refers to the ninth statement in the fifth group. I am not sure if we
could call it a suttam in the normal sense, but we could certainly
treat it as a suttam statement because Anguttatra Nikaayo belongs to
the Suttam Pitaka.

Jim: My understanding is that each one of those short so-called
statements in the Ekakanipaata is a sutta. My reason for this is based
on the final line of the ekakanipaata found in both the PTS and Thai
Budsir edns. which read: Ekanipaatassa suttasahassa.m samatta.m.
The CSCD vers. doesn't have this but has the numbering 1-611 (=611
suttas) which falls well short of a 1000 suttas which leaves me
wondering if some have gone missing. It is not clear to me whether the
Buddha uttered these suttas one at a time on separate occasions or
would utter a group (vagga) of them on the same occasion.

Jim asked:

"Why do you choose 'brown' for 'niila'? I have not seen that colour
for niila in any of the dictionaries I've looked up so far. The
colours listed have been blue, dark blue, blue-black, blue-green."

Suan: I chose "brown" for "niila" as found in a Pali-Myanmar
dictionary I have. Yes, it gives three colors: brown, green-brown,
and blue. But, Myanmar Sayadaws including Mahasi Sayadaw consistently
translate "niila" as "brown". So I follows suit.

Jim: I find this quite surprising. I believe most of the English
translations would show a preference for "blue" especially in the
context of the colour kasinas and dhatus which makes sense because
blue, yellow, and red are well-known as primary colours.

Suan continues:

The Pali-Myanmar dictionary I refer to is called "Padatthamajuusaa",
and compiled by U Hoat Sein, a great Chinese Pali scholar, who first
planned to compile a Pali-English dictionary, but later changed his
mind when Pali Text Society published their PTS dictionary.

Jim: Thanks for the information. Have you ever seen that gigantic
Pali-Myanmar dictionary Teng Kee has mentioned a few times? I forget
how many volumes he said it had, maybe 15 or so. I don't know the
Myanmar language but I can read its script for Pali. I have two Pali
grammars and the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in that script.

Jim: "I'm interested in your translation of 'bhavanga' as 'life-
cause'. I know that 'anga' can have the meaning of hetu or kaara.na.
I've tried searching for a definition of bhavanga on the CSCD but
haven't found anything so far. Do you know where I could find such a
definition in the commentaries? Nyanatiloka in his Buddhist
Dictionary says:"...is explained in the Abhidhamma-commentaries as
the foundation or cause (kaara.na) of existence"

Suan: I merely gave one of the lateral meanings (live-component and
life-cause) of "bhavanga". I haven't come across the commentary
explanation. As soon as I found one, I will let you know.

Jim: I think you must've meant 'literal' not 'lateral'. I did some
searching and found a few interesting explanations in the Netti
commenataries and also in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the
Nettippakara.na (The Guide, p. 49 fn 165/1) where he translates
bhavanga as 'factor of being'. The Nettivibhaavinii has this helpful
bit: 'tattha bhava"ngaani kileso bhavassa anga.m kaara.na.m
kammava.t.tavipaakava.t.taani bhavasa"nkhaataani a"ngaani avayavaani.'
~Naa.namoli says that its meaning in the Netti differs from that in
the Abhidhamma. The Netti seems to be using it in a wider sense by
calling each of the 12 constituents of pa.ticcasamuppaada a bhavanga.
I thought that perhaps bhavangacitta could refer to the third
constituent 'vi~n~naa.na' which happens to include the 19
bhavangacittas according to my reading at Vism. XVII.120.

Best wishes,
Jim


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450
From: abhidhammika <abhidhammika@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:35am
Subject: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 2

 
    Dear Jim

How are you?

Thank you for your informative post.

Jim: My understanding is that each one of those short so-called
statements in the Ekakanipaata is a sutta. 

Suan: I do like the idea of calling those unitary Paali lines or 
unitary passages suttam. After all, is not another meaning of the 
term "suttam" a thread? Moreover, each aphorism in traditional Saddaa 
texts is called a sutta.

So we could even translate the phrase "navame" as "in the ninth 
thread" or as "in the ninth aphorism.


Jim: Thanks for the information. Have you ever seen that gigantic
Pali-Myanmar dictionary Teng Kee has mentioned a few times? I forget
how many volumes he said it had, maybe 15 or so. I don't know the
Myanmar language but I can read its script for Pali. I have two Pali
grammars and the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in that script.

Suan: What a coincidence! I was thinking about mentioning to you this 
gigantic Pali-Myanmar dictionary. I strongly recommend you to get 
hold of as many volumes as available. Even if you do not read Myanmar 
language, with your knowledge of Myanmar script, you can still use it 
as a Pali-Pali dictionary because it either defines terms in Pali or 
provides quotation sentences in which the terms appear, helping you 
to be able to figure out the meaning. Plus extensive references in 
Pali abbreviations.

I have 8 arbitrary volumes of this great dictionary, and plan to get 
remaining volumes. I do not know how many!

Jim: I think you must've meant 'literal' not 'lateral'. 

Suan: Yes, Jim, thank you for correction. When I wrote the post, I 
was already sleepy just like now at about 2.30 a.m. 

Jim: I did some searching and found a few interesting explanations in 
the Netti commenataries and also in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the
Nettippakara.na (The Guide, p. 49 fn 165/1) where he translates
bhavanga as 'factor of being'. The Nettivibhaavinii has this helpful
bit: 'tattha bhava"ngaani kileso bhavassa anga.m kaara.na.m
kammava.t.tavipaakava.t.taani bhavasa"nkhaataani a"ngaani avayavaani.'
~Naa.namoli says that its meaning in the Netti differs from that in
the Abhidhamma. The Netti seems to be using it in a wider sense by
calling each of the 12 constituents of pa.ticcasamuppaada a bhavanga.
I thought that perhaps bhavangacitta could refer to the third
constituent 'vi~n~naa.na' which happens to include the 19
bhavangacittas according to my reading at Vism. XVII.120.


Suan: The above information is very useful, and I will look into it 
tomorrow. Now I am very, very sleepy.


With regards,

Suan






--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Please read on 
for
> my comments.
> 
> Jim asked:
> 
> "When you translate 'navame' as 'In the ninth statement' does
> 'statement' here stand for 'sutte' (understood)?"
> 
> Suan: As you might have noticed, Ekakanipaata, Anguttara Nikaayo,
> comes with groups (vaggaa)containing unitary statements. So 'navame'
> refers to the ninth statement in the fifth group. I am not sure if 
we
> could call it a suttam in the normal sense, but we could certainly
> treat it as a suttam statement because Anguttatra Nikaayo belongs to
> the Suttam Pitaka.
> 
> Jim: My understanding is that each one of those short so-called
> statements in the Ekakanipaata is a sutta. My reason for this is 
based
> on the final line of the ekakanipaata found in both the PTS and Thai
> Budsir edns. which read: Ekanipaatassa suttasahassa.m samatta.m.
> The CSCD vers. doesn't have this but has the numbering 1-611 (=611
> suttas) which falls well short of a 1000 suttas which leaves me
> wondering if some have gone missing. It is not clear to me whether 
the
> Buddha uttered these suttas one at a time on separate occasions or
> would utter a group (vagga) of them on the same occasion.
> 
> Jim asked:
> 
> "Why do you choose 'brown' for 'niila'? I have not seen that colour
> for niila in any of the dictionaries I've looked up so far. The
> colours listed have been blue, dark blue, blue-black, blue-green."
> 
> Suan: I chose "brown" for "niila" as found in a Pali-Myanmar
> dictionary I have. Yes, it gives three colors: brown, green-brown,
> and blue. But, Myanmar Sayadaws including Mahasi Sayadaw 
consistently
> translate "niila" as "brown". So I follows suit.
> 
> Jim: I find this quite surprising. I believe most of the English
> translations would show a preference for "blue" especially in the
> context of the colour kasinas and dhatus which makes sense because
> blue, yellow, and red are well-known as primary colours.
> 
> Suan continues:
> 
> The Pali-Myanmar dictionary I refer to is 
called "Padatthamajuusaa",
> and compiled by U Hoat Sein, a great Chinese Pali scholar, who first
> planned to compile a Pali-English dictionary, but later changed his
> mind when Pali Text Society published their PTS dictionary.
> 
> Jim: Thanks for the information. Have you ever seen that gigantic
> Pali-Myanmar dictionary Teng Kee has mentioned a few times? I forget
> how many volumes he said it had, maybe 15 or so. I don't know the
> Myanmar language but I can read its script for Pali. I have two Pali
> grammars and the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in that script.
> 
> Jim: "I'm interested in your translation of 'bhavanga' as 'life-
> cause'. I know that 'anga' can have the meaning of hetu or kaara.na.
> I've tried searching for a definition of bhavanga on the CSCD but
> haven't found anything so far. Do you know where I could find such a
> definition in the commentaries? Nyanatiloka in his Buddhist
> Dictionary says:"...is explained in the Abhidhamma-commentaries as
> the foundation or cause (kaara.na) of existence"
> 
> Suan: I merely gave one of the lateral meanings (live-component and
> life-cause) of "bhavanga". I haven't come across the commentary
> explanation. As soon as I found one, I will let you know.
> 
> Jim: I think you must've meant 'literal' not 'lateral'. I did some
> searching and found a few interesting explanations in the Netti
> commenataries and also in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the
> Nettippakara.na (The Guide, p. 49 fn 165/1) where he translates
> bhavanga as 'factor of being'. The Nettivibhaavinii has this helpful
> bit: 'tattha bhava"ngaani kileso bhavassa anga.m kaara.na.m
> kammava.t.tavipaakava.t.taani bhavasa"nkhaataani a"ngaani 
avayavaani.'
> ~Naa.namoli says that its meaning in the Netti differs from that in
> the Abhidhamma. The Netti seems to be using it in a wider sense by
> calling each of the 12 constituents of pa.ticcasamuppaada a 
bhavanga.
> I thought that perhaps bhavangacitta could refer to the third
> constituent 'vi~n~naa.na' which happens to include the 19
> bhavangacittas according to my reading at Vism. XVII.120.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

451
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 1:31pm
Subject: correction subcom

 
    Dear Jim, sorry, the attachment did not work, I lost my corrections several
times, had to copy it on Apple works. I cannot send it as attachment, just
as mail, I hope it is O.K. Now I can find time to read the Pali of your
very interesting exchange of thoughts with Suan.
Best wishes, Nina. 


N:> With reference to the ninth sutta, luminous , means very pure because
of
its natural purity. Therefore he said , <clear, pure>.
S: 49. In the ninth statement, the expression `radiant' means complete
purity due to natural complete cleanness. That is why the commentator said
"pure, completely clean."

Mp> cittanti bhava"ngacitta.m.

N:< consciousness>, this is the life-continuum.
S: The term `mind' refers to the life-cause consciousness.

Mp> ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.

N: But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, there is not.
S: How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't.

Mp-p.t> pabhassarataadayo naama va.n.nadhaatuya.m labbhanakavisesaati aaha
-- 'ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthii'ti?

N: Since it has taken on luminosity he spoke of it as a quality obtained in
the colour element. He asked, <But how is there indeed a colour of
consciousness?>

S: Because the qualities like radiance are attributes available in the color
element, the commentator posed the question "How could there be such a thing
as the color of the mind?"

Mp> niilaadiina~nhi a~n~natarava.n.na.m vaa hotu ava.n.na.m vaa ya.mki~nci
parisuddhataaya 'pabhassaran'ti vuccati. idampi nirupakkilesataaya
parisuddhanti pabhassara.m.

N: For anything which may be a certain colour, beginning with blue, or
without colour, is called luminous because of its purity. This consciousness
too is luminous, < pure because of the absence of defilements.>

S: Whatever thing, be it with any color such as brown, or be it colorless,
is said to be radiant, due to its complete cleanness. This mind, too, is
said to be radiant because it is completely clean due to the absence of
blots.

Mp-p.t> itaro aruupataaya n'atthii'ti pa.tikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa aya.m
taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento
'niilaadiinan'tiaadimaaha.

N: Someone else has said that there is no colour for
that which is immmaterial, but after he has refuted this and explaining that
various texts nevertheless state this of such consciousness because of its
natural purity etc. , he made the statement beginning with <blue, and so
on>. 

S: Having negated that question as "No" due to the mind's
immateriality, and showing the other argument for explaining complete
cleansing of such a mind, the commentator made the statement
beginning with "any color such as brown".

Mp-p.t> tathaa hi 'so eva.m samaahite citte parisuddhe pariyodaate'ti
vutta.m. 

N: There, however, it was stated that he spoke thus with
reference to the consciousness that is composed, clean and very pure.

S: In fact, similarly it has been said by the Buddha that he, when the
mind is thus in focus, clean, pure, 

Mp-p.t> tenevaaha -- 'idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti
pabhassaran'ti.

N: Therefore he said,  this consciousness also, because of the absence of
defilements is
<very pure, luminous.>

S: For that very reason, the commentator said that, "this mind, too, is
radiant because it is completely clean due to the absence of blots."

Mp> ta~nca khoti ta.m bhava"ngacitta.m.

N: <That indeed>, means that life-continuum.

S: The phrase `and that very mind' means `that life-cause consciousness.'

Mp-p.t> ki.m pana bhava"ngacitta.m nirupakkilesanti? aama sabhaavato
nirupakkilesa.m, aagantukaupakkilesavasena pana siyaa upakkili.t.tha.m.
tenaaha -- 'ta~nca kho'tiaadi.kho-saddo vacanaala"nkaare, avadhaara.ne vaa.

N: But why is the life-continuum without defilements? Yes, it is by nature
without defilements, but because of the oncoming defilements it is as it
were
corrupted. Therefore he said, <and that consciousness indeed> and so on.

S: Why then is the life-cause consciousness without blots? Well, the
absence of blots is by its nature. But, it may become tarnished by
guest blots. For that reason, the Buddha said that, "And, that very
mind..." and so on.

Mp-p.t> tattha attano tesa~nca bhikkhuuna.m paccakkhabhaavato pubbe 'idan'ti
vatvaa idaani paccaamasanavasena 'tan'ti aaha.

N.: There, having first said <this>, because it was evident to himself and
to those monks, now he said <that>because hetouched on this subject again.

S: In that statement, having first said "this" due to being in the
presence of his and those monks, the Buddha now said `that' as an
afterthought.

Mp-p.t> ca-saddo atthuupanayane. kho-saddo vacanaala"nkaare, avadhaara.ne
vaa.

N: The word ca makes the meaning clearer and the word kho is for the
sake of embellishment of speech and emphasis.

S: The particle "ca" is used in the sense of bringing along the meaning.
The particle "kho" appears as a speech embellishment or in the
determinative sense.

Mp> aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi.

N:  by oncoming (defilements), by those that are not conascent with it,
but arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana).

S: The phrase `by guest' refers to the asynchronous mental events happening
later at the moments of the rapid repeats.

Mp-p.t> vakkhamaanassa atthassa nicchitabhaavato bhava"ngacittena
sahaava.t.thaanaabhaavato upakkilesaana.m aagantukataati aaha --
'asahajaatehii'tiaadi.

N: Because of consideration of the meaning he will express, he said with
reference to the life-continuum that is visited by the uncoming defilements,
because it is by nature not connected with them; he said < by those that are
not conascent>, and so on.

S: With the said meaning being decided (as the life-cause
consciousness), the commentator said the statement starting with "By
the asynchronous mental events" due to the state of the blots being
guests as they do not have the nature of standing together with the
life-cause consciousness.

Mp> upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkili.t.thattaa upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati
vuccati.

N: by defilements. By being soiled by desire etc. it is indeed called
defiled. 

S: The phrase `by blots' means "by the mental events with lust and so on."
The Buddha said the scenario of being tarnished due to the mind being
tarnished by things such as lust.

Mp-p.t> raagaadayo upecca cittasantaana.m kilissanti vibaadhenti upataapenti
caati aaha --'upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihii'ti.

N: Desire etc. which have approached the sequence of cittas corrupt it, they
oppress and torment it, he said, and this is the meaning of: by the
defilements and by desire, etc..

S: The commentator said that the phrase "by the (guest) blots" means "by
the mental events with lust and so on" because phenomena such as lust
tarnish, injure, and menace the mental chain by catching the latter.

Mp-p.t> bhava"ngacittassa nippariyaayato upakkilesehi upakkili.t.thataa
naama natthi asa.msa.t.thabhaavato, ekasantatipariyaapannataaya pana siyaa
upakkili.t.thataapariyaayoti aaha -- 'upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati
vuccatii'ti.

N: The life-continuum is not specifically included, it is indeed not
corrupted by defilements since it is by nature not mixed up with those, but,
by including it in one process he said that, by this method of teaching, it
is as it were corrupted, he said that it was stated (by the Buddha) as
<indeed corrupted>

S: In reality, there is no such a case of the life-cause consciousness
being tarnished by blots because of unmixableness. However, through
inclusion in the same mental chain, there may be an indirect method
of saying about the life-cause consciousness being tarnished.
Therefore, the commentator said that "the Buddha said the scenario of
being tarnished."

Mp> katha.m? yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro vaa
aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaana.m duraacaaraana.m avattasampannaana.m
puttaana~nceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaana~nca vasena 'attano putte vaa
antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti na sikkhaapenti na ovadanti
naanusaasantii'ti ava.n.na.m akitti.m labhanti, eva.msampadamida.m
veditabba.m.

N: How is that so? For, as parents, teachers or preceptors, of good conduct,
possessed of good behaviour, because of the children, pupils or co-residents
of bad conduct, who are misbehaved, disobedient, receive dispraise or
disapproval
thus,  they neither instill awe to, nor discipline, admonish or exhort
their own children, their pupils, their co-residents, evenso should this
(bhavangacitta) be understood in a similar way.

S: How so? Like the virtuous and refined parents or teachers and
preceptors, - on account of the immoral, unrefined, undutiful sons or
insider pupils and live-in pupils, - indeed received condemnation and
notoriety as those who do not threaten, train, instruct, and steer
one's own sons or insider pupils and live-in pupils, so this
example's completeness should be noted.

Mp> aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro viya ca aacariyupajjhaayaa viya ca
bhava"ngacitta.m da.t.thabba.m, puttaadiina.m vasena tesa.m akittilaabho
viya javanakkha.ne rajjanadussanamuyhanasabhaavaana.m lobhasahagataadiina.m
cittaana.m vasena uppannehi aagantukehi upakkilesehi pakatiparisuddhampi
bhava"ngacitta.m upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotiiti.

N: Just as parents, teachers, preceptors, who are of good conduct, even so
the life-continuum should be seen. Just as the acquirement of a bad name for
them, through the children etc., evenso, because of the moments of
consciousness that are of a nature attachment, hate and delusion, that are
accompanied by desire and so on, arising at the
moments of impulsion, evenso is also the life-continuum, that is by nature
pure, indeed soiled, by the oncoming defilements that have arisen.

S: The life-cause consciousness should be seen as the refined parents or
as the refined teachers and preceptors. And, like their earning of
notoriety by means of sons and so on, the naturally pure life-cause
consciousness comes to be tarnished by guest blots happening, at the
moments of the rapid repeats, as the mental events co-arising with
greed and so on having the instincts of lust, destructiveness, or
foolishness.

Mp-p.t> idaani tamattha.m upamaaya vibhaavetu.m 'yathaa hii'tiaadimaaha.
tena bhinnasantaanagataayapi naama iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati, pageva
ekasantaanagataaya iriyaayaati ima.m visesa.m dasseti. tenaaha --
'javanakkha.ne... upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotii'ti.

N: Now in order to explain that meaning by a simile, he said, just as,
etc. By this, the state of blame by the world is shown also of the conduct
arising in a different sequence of moments of consciousness and even more so
of conduct arising in one sequence of moments of consciousness. He explains
that distinction and said therefore, < at the moment of impulsion etc. it is
indeed corrupted.>

S: Now, in order to elucidate that meaning by an example, the
commentator made the statement beginning with "Like indeed". By that
example, the commentator showed this significance, that blaming even
the behavior arising from the different mental chains is evident in
the world, __ no chance for the behavior arising from the same mental
chain to get away from censure. Therefore, the commentator said
that "the naturally pure life-cause consciousness comes to be
tarnished by guest blots happening at the moments of the rapid
repeats"

<end>
 
452
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 8:44pm
Subject: Re: correction subcom

 
    Dear Members,

Just to let you know that two of my old email addresses are no longer in
use. They are: < jima@bconnex.net > and < jima_47@yahoo.com >.
If you have any of these in your address book, please be sure to remove
them. The normal address by which to contact me off-list is:
< jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca >.

Dear Nina,

You wrote:
Dear Jim, sorry, the attachment did not work, I lost my corrections several
times, had to copy it on Apple works. I cannot send it as attachment, just
as mail, I hope it is O.K. Now I can find time to read the Pali of your
very interesting exchange of thoughts with Suan.
Best wishes, Nina.

Jim: Thank-you for your revised translation of the subcommentary. Some
lists including this one and dsg do not allow attachments. A reason for this
is to prevent viruses from spreading and also to remove bulky html
formatting. I think this arrangement of sending you a master file off-list
for you to work on isn't going to work very well due to some of the
technical problems of different computer systems that have come up. I
noticed that your program turned Suan's "clean, pure, ..." into "clean,
pure, ". It seems that your keyboard doesn't allow you to type in the
regular quotation marks like "..." or '...'. I see that you've gotten around
this problem by using <...>. Perhaps, for double quotation marks you could
use <<...>> and for single quotation marks you could use <...>.

I'll send in my comments on your translation later on as they become
available and probably on just small portions at a time. Some of the
phrasings in the Pali commentary and subcommentary are difficult for
me to understand. For now, I'd like to make a quick comment on the
following:

Mp> ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.

N: But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, there is not.
S: How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't.

I find the use of "how" in both translations questionable. As far as I know,
a "how" (by what means? in what way?) question requires an explanatory
answer. But we have a categorical "natthi" answer, not an explanation. So
I think the "how" should probably be avoided and "ki.m" to be taken as an
introduction to a question and left untranslated as in "But does there
exist...".

Best wishes,
Jim


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453
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Re: correction subcom

 
    op 25-01-2002 02:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca
> 
> Dear Nina,
> Mp> ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.
> 
> N: But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, there is not.
> S: How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't.
> 
J > I find the use of "how" in both translations questionable. As far as I
know,
> a "how" (by what means? in what way?) question requires an explanatory
> answer. But we have a categorical "natthi" answer, not an explanation. So
> I think the "how" should probably be avoided and "ki.m" to be taken as an
> introduction to a question and left untranslated as in "But does there
> exist...".

Dear Jim, I was thinking of: how is it possible that...how can it be that..
But, this may be too strong. If the Pali had: kin nu kho, it is stronger,
but this is kim only. Is that right?
Since the text is very much in my mind I want to write down all my <trouble
spots>, but these do not have to be corrected now.
va.n.nadhaatuya.m (accusative?) labbhanakavisesaa , the case of visesaa. ,
after the labbhanaka.
Ahaa: sometimes I do not know whether this refers to the preceding or the
following.

itaro: another said... and then: what belongs to what: dassento: is the
subject the commentator or is it the pariyaayakathaa?
panaayaati, is this: pana aya.m ti? There is the first aya.m, where does
this belong? 
paccakkhabhaavato: I understood: evident, clear, different from Suan.

paccaamanasana: paccaa: a contraction of pa.ti? It could mean: again.
upecca: having approached? caati: is this ca ti? I could not get this.
grammar of pariyaayo; in the first case?.
Grammar at the end: iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati: it is shown, but not
sure about the case of iriyaaya: ablative?
I feel I am getting very involved in this text.

Jim> I did some
> searching and found a few interesting explanations in the Netti
> commenataries and also in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the
> Nettippakara.na (The Guide, p. 49 fn 165/1) where he translates
> bhavanga as 'factor of being'. The Nettivibhaavinii has this helpful
> bit: 'tattha bhava"ngaani kileso bhavassa anga.m kaara.na.m
> kammava.t.tavipaakava.t.taani bhavasa"nkhaataani a"ngaani
avayavaani.'

N> I could not make this out: the kileso: where does it belong. There is the
cycle of kamma and of vipaaka, but what is: avayavaani? bhavasankhaataani:
conditioned birth? 

J> ~Naa.namoli says that its meaning in the Netti differs from that in
> the Abhidhamma. The Netti seems to be using it in a wider sense by
> calling each of the 12 constituents of pa.ticcasamuppaada a
bhavanga.
> I thought that perhaps bhavangacitta could refer to the third
> constituent 'vi~n~naa.na' which happens to include the 19
> bhavangacittas according to my reading at Vism. XVII.120.

N>I think that - the Vis. refers to the 19 types of rebirth-consciousness,
but vi~n~naana also refers to vipaaka like seeing and hearing, arising
during life. As I understand it, bhavangacitta is not a constituent of the
Pa.ticcasamuppada, but as bhavanga is used in a wider sense in the Netti,
just bhavanga could be a name for each of the 12 constituents, since they
are a condition for life to continue in samsara.
I find this text interesting but I regret it that I only understand part of
this Pali. 
Best wishes, Nina. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
454
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 2

 
    Dear Suan,

Jim: My understanding is that each one of those short so-called
statements in the Ekakanipaata is a sutta.

Suan: I do like the idea of calling those unitary Paali lines or
unitary passages suttam. After all, is not another meaning of the
term "suttam" a thread? Moreover, each aphorism in traditional Saddaa
texts is called a sutta.

So we could even translate the phrase "navame" as "in the ninth
thread" or as "in the ninth aphorism.

Jim: I think my preference would be just to leave it untranslated like Nina
did. The standard definition of "sutta" is found in the following verse:

"atthaana.m suucanato, suvuttato savanatotha suudanato.
suttaa.naa suttasabhaagato ca, suttanti akkhaata.m.." (Sp, Sv, As)

which is fully explained by its commentary and subcommentary. I think most
people probably think that "sutta" is just the Pali counterpart of the Skt.
"suutra" only. But, according to the verse above, five other additional
etymologies of the term are given. "suvutta" (well-stated) is similar to
Skt. suukta (su + ukta).

Jim: Thanks for the information. Have you ever seen that gigantic
Pali-Myanmar dictionary Teng Kee has mentioned a few times? I forget
how many volumes he said it had, maybe 15 or so. I don't know the
Myanmar language but I can read its script for Pali. I have two Pali
grammars and the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in that script.

Suan: What a coincidence! I was thinking about mentioning to you this
gigantic Pali-Myanmar dictionary. I strongly recommend you to get
hold of as many volumes as available. Even if you do not read Myanmar
language, with your knowledge of Myanmar script, you can still use it
as a Pali-Pali dictionary because it either defines terms in Pali or
provides quotation sentences in which the terms appear, helping you
to be able to figure out the meaning. Plus extensive references in
Pali abbreviations.

I have 8 arbitrary volumes of this great dictionary, and plan to get
remaining volumes. I do not know how many!

Jim: Thank-you for the information about this dictionary. I'll certainly
consider getting a hold of these volumes if I can. Could you give me the
contact address of the bookseller? The largest European dictionary, of
course, is the Critical Pali Dictionary published in Copenhagen. I have the
first two volumes which cover only the vowels a-o. The second volume of
17 fascicles is very expensive and I'm not sure if I want to buy any more
fascicles. Does the Burmese dictionary show the derivation of the
entry-words in some detail? Perhaps you could type out an example picked
at random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find a Pali-Pali dictionary
quite useful.

Best wishes,
Jim


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455
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 6:36am
Subject: Re: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 2

 
    Go to www.myanmarbook.com.It will cost you 300usd
but still lacking two vol.I think order cpd in danish
crone will be cheaper.-- 







- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> 
> Jim: My understanding is that each one of those
> short so-called
> statements in the Ekakanipaata is a sutta.
> 
> Suan: I do like the idea of calling those unitary
> Paali lines or
> unitary passages suttam. After all, is not another
> meaning of the
> term "suttam" a thread? Moreover, each aphorism in
> traditional Saddaa
> texts is called a sutta.
> 
> So we could even translate the phrase "navame" as
> "in the ninth
> thread" or as "in the ninth aphorism.
> 
> Jim: I think my preference would be just to leave it
> untranslated like Nina
> did. The standard definition of "sutta" is found in
> the following verse:
> 
> "atthaana.m suucanato, suvuttato savanatotha
> suudanato.
> suttaa.naa suttasabhaagato ca, suttanti
> akkhaata.m.." (Sp, Sv, As)
> 
> which is fully explained by its commentary and
> subcommentary. I think most
> people probably think that "sutta" is just the Pali
> counterpart of the Skt.
> "suutra" only. But, according to the verse above,
> five other additional
> etymologies of the term are given. "suvutta"
> (well-stated) is similar to
> Skt. suukta (su + ukta).
> 
> Jim: Thanks for the information. Have you ever seen
> that gigantic
> Pali-Myanmar dictionary Teng Kee has mentioned a few
> times? I forget
> how many volumes he said it had, maybe 15 or so. I
> don't know the
> Myanmar language but I can read its script for Pali.
> I have two Pali
> grammars and the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in that
> script.
> 
> Suan: What a coincidence! I was thinking about
> mentioning to you this
> gigantic Pali-Myanmar dictionary. I strongly
> recommend you to get
> hold of as many volumes as available. Even if you do
> not read Myanmar
> language, with your knowledge of Myanmar script, you
> can still use it
> as a Pali-Pali dictionary because it either defines
> terms in Pali or
> provides quotation sentences in which the terms
> appear, helping you
> to be able to figure out the meaning. Plus extensive
> references in
> Pali abbreviations.
> 
> I have 8 arbitrary volumes of this great dictionary,
> and plan to get
> remaining volumes. I do not know how many!
> 
> Jim: Thank-you for the information about this
> dictionary. I'll certainly
> consider getting a hold of these volumes if I can.
> Could you give me the
> contact address of the bookseller? The largest
> European dictionary, of
> course, is the Critical Pali Dictionary published in
> Copenhagen. I have the
> first two volumes which cover only the vowels a-o.
> The second volume of
> 17 fascicles is very expensive and I'm not sure if I
> want to buy any more
> fascicles. Does the Burmese dictionary show the
> derivation of the
> entry-words in some detail? Perhaps you could type
> out an example picked
> at random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find
> a Pali-Pali dictionary
> quite useful.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
>
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> 
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456
From: abhidhammika <abhidhammika@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:18am
Subject: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 3

 
    Dear Jim

How are you?

Jim asked:

"Does the Burmese dictionary show the derivation of the entry-words 
in some detail? Perhaps you could type out an example picked at 
random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find a Pali-Pali 
dictionary quite useful."

Suan: The following comes from page 4 Volume 15 of Tipitaka Pali-
Myanmar Dictionary.

{Phandati (kiriya) [phadi+a+ti] to shake. Tena pakkhii na phandati. 
jaa,1, 65. (- Sam,1,176. Sam, 2, 115. Thera, 230. Jaa, 2, 356) 
Tena pakkhii na phandatiiti tenaayam saku.no na phandati na 
calatiiti. Jaa, .t.tha, 2, 214-215. ...More references...}

Every entry-word is shown with its derivation like above, sometimes, 
even with more details. [to shake] is the slot where a Myanmar word 
comes.

You will see the word 'phandati' has been defined as 'calati' in 
terms of a quote from Jaataka atthakathaa page 214-215, Vol.2.

In addition, you will also see a definition of the word 'pakkhii' 
as 'saku.no' in the quote.

I hope you got an idea of how this gigantic dictionary works.

With best wishes,

Suan



--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> 
> Jim: My understanding is that each one of those short so-called
> statements in the Ekakanipaata is a sutta.
> 
> Suan: I do like the idea of calling those unitary Paali lines or
> unitary passages suttam. After all, is not another meaning of the
> term "suttam" a thread? Moreover, each aphorism in traditional 
Saddaa
> texts is called a sutta.
> 
> So we could even translate the phrase "navame" as "in the ninth
> thread" or as "in the ninth aphorism.
> 
> Jim: I think my preference would be just to leave it untranslated 
like Nina
> did. The standard definition of "sutta" is found in the following 
verse:
> 
> "atthaana.m suucanato, suvuttato savanatotha suudanato.
> suttaa.naa suttasabhaagato ca, suttanti akkhaata.m.." (Sp, Sv, As)
> 
> which is fully explained by its commentary and subcommentary. I 
think most
> people probably think that "sutta" is just the Pali counterpart of 
the Skt.
> "suutra" only. But, according to the verse above, five other 
additional
> etymologies of the term are given. "suvutta" (well-stated) is 
similar to
> Skt. suukta (su + ukta).
> 
> Jim: Thanks for the information. Have you ever seen that gigantic
> Pali-Myanmar dictionary Teng Kee has mentioned a few times? I forget
> how many volumes he said it had, maybe 15 or so. I don't know the
> Myanmar language but I can read its script for Pali. I have two Pali
> grammars and the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa in that script.
> 
> Suan: What a coincidence! I was thinking about mentioning to you 
this
> gigantic Pali-Myanmar dictionary. I strongly recommend you to get
> hold of as many volumes as available. Even if you do not read 
Myanmar
> language, with your knowledge of Myanmar script, you can still use 
it
> as a Pali-Pali dictionary because it either defines terms in Pali or
> provides quotation sentences in which the terms appear, helping you
> to be able to figure out the meaning. Plus extensive references in
> Pali abbreviations.
> 
> I have 8 arbitrary volumes of this great dictionary, and plan to get
> remaining volumes. I do not know how many!
> 
> Jim: Thank-you for the information about this dictionary. I'll 
certainly
> consider getting a hold of these volumes if I can. Could you give 
me the
> contact address of the bookseller? The largest European dictionary, 
of
> course, is the Critical Pali Dictionary published in Copenhagen. I 
have the
> first two volumes which cover only the vowels a-o. The second 
volume of
> 17 fascicles is very expensive and I'm not sure if I want to buy 
any more
> fascicles. Does the Burmese dictionary show the derivation of the
> entry-words in some detail? Perhaps you could type out an example 
picked
> at random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find a Pali-Pali 
dictionary
> quite useful.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
457
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 3

 
    Dear Suan,

Thank-you for citing an example from the Tipitaka Pali-Myanmar Dictionary
along with your explanation. Very helpful for getting a good idea about what
the dictionary is like. I don't know if you've ever seen the CPD but it too
provides many quotes for each entry-word sometimes running to many pages but
if the word is a rare one there may only be just one or two quotes. I see
that 'phandati' is in volume 15, so there must be many more volumes left to
make up the complete set. Teng Kee has provided an url to the bookseller
(thank-you Teng Kee!) although I think it is more likely www.myanmarbook.com
and not www.myanmarbook.com.it as I couldn't access the latter one.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Jim asked:
>
> "Does the Burmese dictionary show the derivation of the entry-words
> in some detail? Perhaps you could type out an example picked at
> random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find a Pali-Pali
> dictionary quite useful."
>
> Suan: The following comes from page 4 Volume 15 of Tipitaka Pali-
> Myanmar Dictionary.
>
> {Phandati (kiriya) [phadi+a+ti] to shake. Tena pakkhii na phandati.
> jaa,1, 65. (- Sam,1,176. Sam, 2, 115. Thera, 230. Jaa, 2, 356)
> Tena pakkhii na phandatiiti tenaayam saku.no na phandati na
> calatiiti. Jaa, .t.tha, 2, 214-215. ...More references...}
>
> Every entry-word is shown with its derivation like above, sometimes,
> even with more details. [to shake] is the slot where a Myanmar word
> comes.
>
> You will see the word 'phandati' has been defined as 'calati' in
> terms of a quote from Jaataka atthakathaa page 214-215, Vol.2.
>
> In addition, you will also see a definition of the word 'pakkhii'
> as 'saku.no' in the quote.
>
> I hope you got an idea of how this gigantic dictionary works.
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Suan


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458
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:29am
Subject: Re: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 3

 
    Dear Jim,
The dict. will be only in 19 volumes .It is available in 17 volumes bynow.Unfortunely it is not a team work but each vol by one sayadaw.No using of other countries edtion/leaves will be another big weakness.The books plus postage will be 400 usd I think.


Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote: Dear Suan,

Thank-you for citing an example from the Tipitaka Pali-Myanmar Dictionary
along with your explanation. Very helpful for getting a good idea about what
the dictionary is like. I don't know if you've ever seen the CPD but it too
provides many quotes for each entry-word sometimes running to many pages but
if the word is a rare one there may only be just one or two quotes. I see
that 'phandati' is in volume 15, so there must be many more volumes left to
make up the complete set. Teng Kee has provided an url to the bookseller
(thank-you Teng Kee!) although I think it is more likely www.myanmarbook.com
and not www.myanmarbook.com.it as I couldn't access the latter one.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Jim asked:
>
> "Does the Burmese dictionary show the derivation of the entry-words
> in some detail? Perhaps you could type out an example picked at
> random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find a Pali-Pali
> dictionary quite useful."
>
> Suan: The following comes from page 4 Volume 15 of Tipitaka Pali-
> Myanmar Dictionary.
>
> {Phandati (kiriya) [phadi+a+ti] to shake. Tena pakkhii na phandati.
> jaa,1, 65. (- Sam,1,176. Sam, 2, 115. Thera, 230. Jaa, 2, 356)
> Tena pakkhii na phandatiiti tenaayam saku.no na phandati na
> calatiiti. Jaa, .t.tha, 2, 214-215. ...More references...}
>
> Every entry-word is shown with its derivation like above, sometimes,
> even with more details. [to shake] is the slot where a Myanmar word
> comes.
>
> You will see the word 'phandati' has been defined as 'calati' in
> terms of a quote from Jaataka atthakathaa page 214-215, Vol.2.
>
> In addition, you will also see a definition of the word 'pakkhii'
> as 'saku.no' in the quote.
>
> I hope you got an idea of how this gigantic dictionary works.
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Suan


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459
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:47am
Subject: Re: Re: Jim's Questions Addressed 3

 
    Dear Jim,
I am thinking if you need burma eng dict or grammar ,go to curzonpress.co.uk.They have 3 good books.Unfortunely no jatakatika,vinayasangaha tika ,mahanirutti been used in those dict.I also have to mention that Kaccayana mahanirutti is his better work compare to kaccayanavyakarana.I have read those in leaves,it is better than kaccayana.
It will be a mess when you try to read those dict without myanmar language knowledge.

Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> wrote: 
Dear Jim,
The dict. will be only in 19 volumes .It is available in 17 volumes bynow.Unfortunely it is not a team work but each vol by one sayadaw.No using of other countries edtion/leaves will be another big weakness.The books plus postage will be 400 usd I think.


Jim Anderson wrote: Dear Suan,

Thank-you for citing an example from the Tipitaka Pali-Myanmar Dictionary
along with your explanation. Very helpful for getting a good idea about what
the dictionary is like. I don't know if you've ever seen the CPD but it too
provides many quotes for each entry-word sometimes running to many pages but
if the word is a rare one there may only be just one or two quotes. I see
that 'phandati' is in volume 15, so there must be many more volumes left to
make up the complete set. Teng Kee has provided an url to the bookseller
(thank-you Teng Kee!) although I think it is more likely www.myanmarbook.com
and not www.myanmarbook.com.it as I couldn't access the latter one.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Jim asked:
>
> "Does the Burmese dictionary show the derivation of the entry-words
> in some detail? Perhaps you could type out an example picked at
> random from one of your volumes. I think I'd find a Pali-Pali
> dictionary quite useful."
>
> Suan: The following comes from page 4 Volume 15 of Tipitaka Pali-
> Myanmar Dictionary.
>
> {Phandati (kiriya) [phadi+a+ti] to shake. Tena pakkhii na phandati.
> jaa,1, 65. (- Sam,1,176. Sam, 2, 115. Thera, 230. Jaa, 2, 356)
> Tena pakkhii na phandatiiti tenaayam saku.no na phandati na
> calatiiti. Jaa, .t.tha, 2, 214-215. ...More references...}
>
> Every entry-word is shown with its derivation like above, sometimes,
> even with more details. [to shake] is the slot where a Myanmar word
> comes.
>
> You will see the word 'phandati' has been defined as 'calati' in
> terms of a quote from Jaataka atthakathaa page 214-215, Vol.2.
>
> In addition, you will also see a definition of the word 'pakkhii'
> as 'saku.no' in the quote.
>
> I hope you got an idea of how this gigantic dictionary works.
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Suan


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460
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2002 0:27pm
Subject: Re: correction subcom (AN I.49)

 
    Dear Nina,

My apology for taking so long in replying to your message. There was
so much in it for me to study and to think about before I could respond.

> > Dear Nina,
> > Mp> ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.
> >
> > N: But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, there is not.
> > S: How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't.
> >
> J > I find the use of "how" in both translations questionable. As far as I
> know,
> > a "how" (by what means? in what way?) question requires an explanatory
> > answer. But we have a categorical "natthi" answer, not an explanation.
So
> > I think the "how" should probably be avoided and "ki.m" to be taken as
an
> > introduction to a question and left untranslated as in "But does there
> > exist...".
>
> Dear Jim, I was thinking of: how is it possible that...how can it be
> that.. But, this may be too strong. If the Pali had: kin nu kho, it is
> stronger, but this is kim only. Is that right?

I'm not sure how to answer. I think "how is it possible that...how can
it be that.." would be expressed in some other way with the atthi in the
optative "siyaa". I really don't know off-hand exactly how this type of
question is handled in Pali. I couldn't find anything in Warder on this. The
PED on "ki.m pana" has: ki.m pana = nonne: ki.m pana bhante addasa? "Have
you not seen?" D II.132; ki.m pana tva.m ma~n~naasi what then do you think =
do you think then, that? . . . J I.171; and for "kin nu kho": why, but why,
why in the world? The "ki.m" in our sentence functions as an interrogative
adverb and not as a pronoun. To find out more on the usage of "ki.m pana"
one could look at some other passages where it occurs. I glanced at a few
and saw some that have categorical natthi/atthi answers and some that don't.
At DN II 82 there are several "ki.m pana" questions posed by the Buddha to
Sariputta whose answer each time was a categorical "no h'eta.m". I'm afraid
I don't know much about the different ways in which Pali interrogative
sentences are constructed. I'm not saying that the use of "how" is
incorrect, just not sure. Also, later on in the .tikaa we find another "ki.m
pana" question & answer:

Mp-p.t> ki.m pana bhava"ngacitta.m nirupakkilesanti? aama sabhaavato
nirupakkilesa.m, aagantukaupakkilesavasena pana siyaa upakkili.t.tha.m.

But in this case both you and Suan use a "why" instead of a "how". I think
this question can be stated quite well without it: eg. "But is the
bhavangacitta without defilement? Yes, regarding its own nature it is
without defilement; however, it can be defiled by way of the oncoming
defilements."

> Since the text is very much in my mind I want to write down all my
<trouble
> spots>, but these do not have to be corrected now.
> va.n.nadhaatuya.m (accusative?)

Locative singular. -dhaatu.m is the accusative sg. form.

labbhanakavisesaa , the case of visesaa. ,
> after the labbhanaka.

Nominative plural. It goes with "pabhassarataadayo" -- luminosity and so on
are distinctions to be found in the colour element. I do not see
"labbhanaka" in any of my dictionaries. 'labbhana' could be taken as a
future passive participle similar to the 'vi~n~naa.na' (cognizable, it can
be cognized) in the verse about nibbaana we touched on earlier. I
found "va.n.nadhaatu" in a verse in the Bhikkhuniisa.myutta and in another
one in the Petavatthu which Masefield translates as "complexion" (colour of
the skin). It is also found in The Dispeller of Delusion, vol. 2, no. 2129:
". . . which has as its object the colour element of beings that pass away
and reappear. . ." (dibbacakkhu knowledge).

> Ahaa: sometimes I do not know whether this refers to the preceding or the
> following.

Look for the quote that matches the same words in the a.t.thakathaa. It
would refer to the following if you see "aaha -- . . ." or the preceding if
it ends in a period eg. ". . . tiaadimaaha."

> itaro: another said... and then: what belongs to what: dassento: is the
> subject the commentator or is it the pariyaayakathaa?
> panaayaati, is this: pana aya.m ti? There is the first aya.m, where does
> this belong?

"itaro" in the following is problematic for me:

Mp-p.t> itaro aruupataaya 'natthii'ti pa.tikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa aya.m
taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento
'niilaadiinan'tiaadimaaha.

I don't yet know what "itaro" here is referring to. The sentence makes more
sense without it. I take the subject of "dassento" to be the commentator
although one might wonder if "itaro" (the other or following one) could be
the subject. panaayaati is not pana aya.m ti.
parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati = parisuddha-bhaavanaa-diipanaayaa ti. I'm
not sure whether "diipanaaya" is fem. (diipanaa in the sing. of one of five
cases) or neut. (diipana.m). My preliminary translation of the passage w/o
the itaro (for now) is: After having rejected in this way: "there isn't"
owing to the immateriality (of consciousness) and showing that this
roundabout talk is for illustrating the completely pure development of
suchlike consciousness, he said: "beginning with blue" and so on. I'm hardly
clear on the meaning of "pariyaayakathaa". "pariyaaya" here seems to fit
def. 5 in PED. I have also seen "suttantadesanaa naama pariyaayakathaa" in
Sv-p.t and there is also a "nippariyaayakathaa" in some places. So perhaps
the difference between the two is along the lines of a conventional teaching
in contrast to a paramatttha teaching.

> paccakkhabhaavato: I understood: evident, clear, different from Suan.

That's sort of how I understand it, something like: from being directly
perceptible.

> paccaamanasana: paccaa: a contraction of pa.ti? It could mean: again.

paccaa = pa.ti + aa. So "paccaamasana" (touching on again) is pa.ti + aa +
masana.

> upecca: having approached?

That's how I understand it. 'upecca' is the absolutive (or gerund) of the
verb 'upeti'. It's similar to 'pa.ticca' in having the same absolutive affix
'ya' (like the -tvaa) at the end. (upa + i + t + ya > upetya > upecca)

> caati: is this ca ti?

Correct, although 'ti' is originally 'iti'. So it's probably more accurate
to put it as 'ca iti'.

> I could not get this.
> grammar of pariyaayo; in the first case?.

Not sure which part you're referring to. The only 'pariyaayo' I found is in
the compound 'upakkili.t.thataapariyaayo' which is in the nominative sing.
I'll look at the grammar later on.

> Grammar at the end: iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati: it is shown, but
> not sure about the case of iriyaaya: ablative?

Not sure, will look into it.

> I feel I am getting very involved in this text.

Same here.

> Jim> I did some
> > searching and found a few interesting explanations in the Netti
> > commenataries and also in ~Naa.namoli's translation of the
> > Nettippakara.na (The Guide, p. 49 fn 165/1) where he translates
> > bhavanga as 'factor of being'. The Nettivibhaavinii has this helpful
> > bit: 'tattha bhava"ngaani kileso bhavassa anga.m kaara.na.m
> > kammava.t.tavipaakava.t.taani bhavasa"nkhaataani a"ngaani
> avayavaani.'
>
> N> I could not make this out: the kileso: where does it belong. There is
> the cycle of kamma and of vipaaka, but what is: avayavaani?
> bhavasankhaataani: conditioned birth?

I think the commentator is saying that 'kileso' is the cause or reason of
existence or being. 'avayavaani' means: members, consituents, components,
parts. This is how I take this line (roughly): "Therein, 'bhava"ngaani': --
a kilesa is a factor, a cause of existence; (both) the cycle of kamma and
the cycle of vipaaka are (each) a member, component called existence."
'sa"nkhaata' (called, named) is not the same as 'sa"nkhata' (conditioned). I
quoted this line from the Nettivibhaavinii to show the meanings of 'anga'
ie. kaara.na and avayava which are also included in the meanings given in
the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (verse 956) although there hetu is given instead
of kaara.na. So from this it seems that one has to consider two distinct
types of compounds depending on whether reference is being made to kilesa,
or kamma and vipaaka. Incidentally, I see that there is also a
'kilesava.t.ta'.

> J> ~Naa.namoli says that its meaning in the Netti differs from that in
> > the Abhidhamma. The Netti seems to be using it in a wider sense by
> > calling each of the 12 constituents of pa.ticcasamuppaada a
> bhavanga.
> > I thought that perhaps bhavangacitta could refer to the third
> > constituent 'vi~n~naa.na' which happens to include the 19
> > bhavangacittas according to my reading at Vism. XVII.120.
>
> N>I think that - the Vis. refers to the 19 types of
rebirth-consciousness,
> but vi~n~naana also refers to vipaaka like seeing and hearing, arising
> during life. As I understand it, bhavangacitta is not a constituent of the
> Pa.ticcasamuppada, but as bhavanga is used in a wider sense in the Netti,
> just bhavanga could be a name for each of the 12 constituents, since they
> are a condition for life to continue in samsara.
> I find this text interesting but I regret it that I only understand part
> of this Pali.
> Best wishes, Nina.

I understand that the 19 types of pa.tisandhicittas are the same as the 19
types of bhavangacittas, but in different functions. I thought that these
are included in the 3rd link along with the other remaining worldly types.
The term 'bhavanga' is found in the Pa.t.thaana, Petakopadesa, Netti, and
Milindapa~nha but not in any other Tipitaka text. The meaning of the term
has long puzzled me and it seems that a close study of the way the term is
used in the Netti and its commentaries could shed some light on it although
there it is used in a more generalized application.

Will work through your translation but this might take some time.

Best wishes,
Jim


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461
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 10:48am
Subject: Thank you

 
    Dear Jim, I am very grateful for all your corrections and remarks, I printed
them out and shall study them. How shall I correct my translations? It does
not work getting them from the archives, but should I add my corrections and
then send each time just my whole translation back? In that case it might be
better if I have my own translation, not connected with others'
translations? I can only work with my Apple Works word processor.
I see that you have worked on my remarks with great thoroughness, it is most
useful. 
With appreciation, Nina.
 
462
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 10:09pm
Subject: Re: Thank you

 
    Dear Nina,

I think the last recent translation you sent in should be okay for me to
work on just as it is without you having to correct it now. After I post my
response to it, you could then make any changes you want and post back a
newer translation for further comments and corrections if desired. We could
just try to go back to the way we were doing it before. And whenever you
send in a translation I think it would be better if you put your questions
and remarks right in with it instead of sending them in a separate message.

When psg first got started I had the idea that we try alternating between
working on a short suttanta text and a short abhidhamma text. So I'm
thinking that after we're finished with AN I.49 with its com. and subcom. we
should move on to an abhidhamma text to work on for awhile before continuing
on with AN I.50. I think it would be better to work on the abhidhamma text
here on psg instead of the Abhidhamma list as I had previously suggested
because of the focus on the Pali. Since many of us here are interested in
what the commentaries have to say, I think the approach of working on a text
from the Tipitaka in conjunction with its com. and subcom. (and sub-subcom.)
is the way to go.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim, I am very grateful for all your corrections and remarks, I
printed
> them out and shall study them. How shall I correct my translations? It
does
> not work getting them from the archives, but should I add my corrections
and
> then send each time just my whole translation back? In that case it might
be
> better if I have my own translation, not connected with others'
> translations? I can only work with my Apple Works word processor.
> I see that you have worked on my remarks with great thoroughness, it is
most
> useful.
> With appreciation, Nina.




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463
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:19am
Subject: three rounds

 
    Dear Jim, I studied the Co to the Kindred Sayings V, Kindred Sayings about
the Truths, ch 2, Setting in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma, but I only have it
in Thai. There are three rounds: sacca ~naa.na, kicca ~naa.na and kata
~naa.na. Now, I am writing about this, but I was wondering about the Pali
word for round. I cannot find a good translation for this, the English round
is not so clear. It would be very helpful if you could give me just the Pali
for this word.Is it va.t.ta? Thank you very much. Nina.
 
464
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:24pm
Subject: Re: three rounds

 
    Dear Nina,

The Pali word is pariva.t.ta (neut.). I agree that the English "round" is
not so clear. Miss I.B. Horner translates 'tipariva.t.ta.m' as "with the
three sections" (B of D, iv, p.17) and ~Naa.namoli has "in these three
phases" (Path of Discrimination, p. 330) while Woodward has "thrice
revolved" (K.S. V p. 359). I'm not so sure of the meaning myself. 'pari'
could have the meaning of 'pariccheda' (exact, precise??) or
'samantatobhaava' (complete, entire, all around) or maybe some other
meaning. Besides 'round' there is also turn, cycle, rotation, revolution,
course, etc.

I recently found out that the publisher of the Budsir CD-ROM disk has
recently made it possible for anyone to access and search the same texts
online for free. Clicking on this link: http://www.budsir.org/program/ will
take you (after you log in) to a page where you can read any page or item of
the Thai translation of the Tipitaka, or both the Tipitaka and the
A.t.thakathaa in Pali. You can also search for any word or phrase in any of
this material with returns that will give you word counts and locations
which you can then click on to take you directly to the page where the word
occurs. When you first go to this page you may be prompted to download some
upgrade software so that your system can read the texts in the Thai or
romanized script, etc. and you will have to register your name and log in
with that name each time you visit. I'm not sure if it's set up for users of
Apple computers but I hope it does as I think you might find the webpage
quite useful if you don't have the Budsir disk.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim, I studied the Co to the Kindred Sayings V, Kindred Sayings about
> the Truths, ch 2, Setting in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma, but I only have
it
> in Thai. There are three rounds: sacca ~naa.na, kicca ~naa.na and kata
> ~naa.na. Now, I am writing about this, but I was wondering about the Pali
> word for round. I cannot find a good translation for this, the English
round
> is not so clear. It would be very helpful if you could give me just the
Pali
> for this word.Is it va.t.ta? Thank you very much. Nina.



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465
From: <srnsk@aol.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:33am
Subject: Re: three rounds

 
    Hi Nina and Jim,


I just like to share some input from a Thai (not Pali, sorry :)) perspective. 
As I said before, we borrow a lot of words from Pali-Sansakrit. The more I 
read the more I found this out. Language is something very unique to human. 
I have read couple of articles about estimating the time and history of human 
migration and genetic linkage in India and American-Indian by using language 
tracing. I do not like to study linguistics or literature that much. 

In Thai the word "Pari" is not uncommonly used. It is pretty used much as a 
prefix as well. The meaning of "Pari" in Thai is somewhat like; all around, 
surrounded, all or completely. The followings are some examples I can think 
of. These words all have foreign smell.

Parikatha : circumstantial speech, hint dropping speech. 
Parinibbana : ceasing all, completely ceased
Parinnana : knowing all around like in parinna 3
Paricheta, paricheta-rupa : something being cut all around, section; like in 
paricheta 1-9, or means boundary like in parichetarupa
Parisuddhi : completely clean, very pure 
Parimontala : peripheral area, circle. Somewhat commonly use in Thai, Bangkok 
and parimontala means Bangkok and the suburbs around her. Or the area which 
is encircled by a white thread in a religious or royal ceremony.
Parivane : in Thai mean the area around.
Parivatta : turning around, orbit, rotating around, revolving around, 
circling .

The Dhammacakkapavattana sutta, my understanding of this word is it means the 
wheel (cakka) of dhamma that keeps the cycle(vatta) going on for a very long 
period of time (kapa), am I even close? 


Budsir : I have not much luck with the site. Even I have a LAN system at work 
the site is still very slow. For me there is always a problem to get into 
this site. The search engine on Budsir is not that user friendly. Anyway, 
there are couple website that I can download the whole tipitaka or zip file 
of each book in 45 volumes version, no atthakatha available though. The 
search engine on Winword 2000 is pretty good. There is also an update for 
Thai Font available directly from Microsoft online support. I have found 
couple of errors in the Budsir-Mahidol version, such as 6 instead of 16, 
kusala instead of akusala or tomanassindriya instead of somanassaindriya. On 
Thai keyboard Tor-tahan and Sor-sear is a key a part. Such an enormous work, 
I think an error is inevitable. 


I like your B&W pic on dsg. It has an interesting composition, nice backlight 
and contrast. I think I prefer to call it as an abstract not just a portrait 
B&W. I have not done any B&W for a while. Nice pic and it's good to be able 
to match face and name.


Num
 
466
From: <srnsk@aol.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:02am
Subject: Re: three rounds

 
    Hi Jim,

Forgot to put this in my last mail. How was the ice storm in Toronto? My boss 
could not come back to St. Louis on time because of the storm.

Num
 
467
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 10:11pm
Subject: Re: three rounds

 
    Hi Num,

> Hi Nina and Jim,
>
>
> I just like to share some input from a Thai (not Pali, sorry :))
perspective.
> As I said before, we borrow a lot of words from Pali-Sansakrit. The more
I
> read the more I found this out. Language is something very unique to
human.
> I have read couple of articles about estimating the time and history of
human
> migration and genetic linkage in India and American-Indian by using
language
> tracing. I do not like to study linguistics or literature that much.

Thank-you for sharing your input which I found interesting and helpful.

> In Thai the word "Pari" is not uncommonly used. It is pretty used much as
a
> prefix as well. The meaning of "Pari" in Thai is somewhat like; all
around,
> surrounded, all or completely. The followings are some examples I can
think
> of. These words all have foreign smell.
>
> Parikatha : circumstantial speech, hint dropping speech.
> Parinibbana : ceasing all, completely ceased
> Parinnana : knowing all around like in parinna 3
> Paricheta, paricheta-rupa : something being cut all around, section; like
in
> paricheta 1-9, or means boundary like in parichetarupa
> Parisuddhi : completely clean, very pure
> Parimontala : peripheral area, circle. Somewhat commonly use in Thai,
Bangkok
> and parimontala means Bangkok and the suburbs around her. Or the area
which
> is encircled by a white thread in a religious or royal ceremony.
> Parivane : in Thai mean the area around.
> Parivatta : turning around, orbit, rotating around, revolving around,
> circling .

I'm sorry to say that I know next to nothing about the Thai language. I take
it that the above words can be found as entry-words in a Thai dictionary, is
that right? I can recognize the
Pali words corresponding to all of them except 'parivane' (vana = forest?).
'parimontala' likely corresponds to Pali/Skt. 'parima.n.dala' and
'paricheta' to Pali 'pariccheda'. I also saw your 'upatampaka' on dsg today
which I think must be equal to the Pali 'upatthambhaka' (supporting). The
Thai meaning of 'pari' is pretty much, as you describe it, the same as the
basic one for Pali like: 'all around'. The Greek 'peri' is similar, but Old
English doesn't seem to have anything like it. Latin uses 'circum-'. In Pali
texts like the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa and the Saddaniiti one finds many more
meanings and occasionally the commentaries give meanings for the prefixes
but are often hard to find. In the tika for AN I.49 a meaning is given for
the 'upa' of 'upakkilesa'. The meanings you give for 'parivatta' are very
good.

> The Dhammacakkapavattana sutta, my understanding of this word is it means
the
> wheel (cakka) of dhamma that keeps the cycle(vatta) going on for a very
long
> period of time (kapa), am I even close?

I think you may be off the mark here. My understanding is that 'pavattana'
is a causative word having a meaning like 'turning (the wheel) in a forward
direction'. Your usage of 'cycle' sounds a lot like samsara which is akin to
the wheel of life (bhavacakka). Isn't the wheel of dhamma altogether
different from the wheel of life? I understand 'dhamma' here to mean the
teachings of the Buddha or the middle way.

> Budsir : I have not much luck with the site. Even I have a LAN system at
work
> the site is still very slow. For me there is always a problem to get into
> this site. The search engine on Budsir is not that user friendly.
Anyway,
> there are couple website that I can download the whole tipitaka or zip
file
> of each book in 45 volumes version, no atthakatha available though. The
> search engine on Winword 2000 is pretty good. There is also an update for
> Thai Font available directly from Microsoft online support. I have found
> couple of errors in the Budsir-Mahidol version, such as 6 instead of 16,
> kusala instead of akusala or tomanassindriya instead of somanassaindriya.
On
> Thai keyboard Tor-tahan and Sor-sear is a key a part. Such an enormous
work,
> I think an error is inevitable.

I've only been to the Budsir site a couple of times mainly to test it out
and it seems to work okay for me. I try to avoid the home page because of
the graphics (over 1 MB!). This is the only site I'm aware of that allows
one to search the Tipitaka and Atthakatha online. I probably won't use it
much myself as it's more convenient to search my Budsir disk. One
disadvantage of the Budsir site is that you can't seem to copy and paste a
page of text in a readable form. Most of my searching for Pali words is done
on the Burmese CSCD disk largely because it has so many more texts,
including the tikas. When you say you can download the Tipitaka from several
websites, do you mean the Thai version of it (in Pali)? And if so, could you
give the URLs? The sites for Tipitaka downloads that I know of are
tipitaka.org (Burmese) and metta.lk (Sinhalese) and also the Journal of
Buddhist Ethics website which has the same version as metta.lk.

> I like your B&W pic on dsg. It has an interesting composition, nice
backlight
> and contrast. I think I prefer to call it as an abstract not just a
portrait
> B&W. I have not done any B&W for a while. Nice pic and it's good to be
able
> to match face and name.

Thanks, Num, I'm glad you can appreciate the artistic quality of it. It was
taken by an artist friend of mine who was keen on photography. I like the
one of you with the hippopotamus, a great shot!

In your other note you asked about the icestorm in Toronto. I wasn't in
Toronto at the time but I didn't hear on the radio that it was bad. I think
they were expecting a lot worse. I remember that there were problems and
delays at the airport around that time (more than 2 weeks ago). In early
1998 there was a really bad icestorm in eastern Ontario and Montreal but
Toronto just barely escaped it. Lots of long power outages and downed trees.
I heard of the ice being 4" thick. Imagine a car encased in ice that thick!

Best wishes,
Jim


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468
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:03pm
Subject: Re: three rounds

 
    op 11-02-2002 02:24 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
Dear Jim, thank you for all the info. My outcome may be: intertwined phases,
with a footnote. Pari , I would think: around.
When I have a lot of courage I may try the link you gave, but it makes me
nervous to log in and give a pass word.
Best wiishes from Nina.
> 
> The Pali word is pariva.t.ta (neut.). I agree that the English "round" is
> not so clear. Miss I.B. Horner translates 'tipariva.t.ta.m' as "with the
> three sections" (B of D, iv, p.17) and ~Naa.namoli has "in these three
> phases" (Path of Discrimination, p. 330) while Woodward has "thrice
> revolved" (K.S. V p. 359). I'm not so sure of the meaning myself. 'pari'
> could have the meaning of 'pariccheda' (exact, precise??) or
> 'samantatobhaava' (complete, entire, all around) or maybe some other
> meaning. Besides 'round' there is also turn, cycle, rotation, revolution,
> course, etc.
>

469
From: srnsk <srnsk@aol.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:22pm
Subject: Re: three rounds

 
    Hi Jim,

Thanks for your feedback. My linguistic skill is pretty limited. I learned 
some very basic Pali in highschool. I have never been fond of studying 
both Thai and English. Well, things depend on conditions, now I am 
pretty interested in understand the text in Tipitaka, so let see whether I 
can turn myself around or not. 


> 
> I think you may be off the mark here. My understanding is 
that 'pavattana'
> is a causative word having a meaning like 'turning (the wheel) in a 
forward
> direction'. Your usage of 'cycle' sounds a lot like samsara which is akin 
to
> the wheel of life (bhavacakka). Isn't the wheel of dhamma altogether
> different from the wheel of life? I understand 'dhamma' here to mean 
the
> teachings of the Buddha or the middle way.

Thanks Jim.

Most of my searching for Pali words is done
> on the Burmese CSCD disk largely because it has so many more texts,
> including the tikas. When you say you can download the Tipitaka from 
several
> websites, do you mean the Thai version of it (in Pali)? And if so, could 
you
> give the URLs? The sites for Tipitaka downloads that I know of are
> tipitaka.org (Burmese) and metta.lk (Sinhalese) and also the Journal of
> Buddhist Ethics website which has the same version as metta.lk.

I meant the Thai version of tipitaka. I have the Budsir CD so I can look 
up the Pali version from there. As you know there is only prapali in 
Budsir CD, no atthakatha or tika in it. I look up the Roman Pali version 
from tipitaka.org as well.

> I heard of the ice being 4" thick. Imagine a car encased in ice that 
thick!

Oh no, I do not even want to think about it. That's very painful. 


Appreciate,

Num
 
470
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: sabbasutta

 
    Dear Jim, I read with interest the Co. to the sabbasutta and also the subco.
It helped me to compare the Thai with the Co. As to the Subco. , there is
one sentence concerning the ayatanas and vipassana: ``aayatanasabbepi idha
vipassanupagadhammaava gahetabbaa abhi~n~neyyaniddesavasenapi
sammasanacaarasseva icchitattaa''ti vadanti.

I know Robert is interested in this also. I am not quite sure about my
translation here:
As regards the <all> of the sensefields, they state that here the dhammmas
that are on the level of vipassana (have reached vipassana) that should be
understood (gahetabbaa) and should be realized also by analysis, are desired
for the method of thorough comprehension.

I was surprised at the form gahetabbaa. The first va after
vipassanupagadhammaava must also be eva, for emphasis.
At the end: yathaati kaara.navacana"nti, I know that kara.navacana can mean
the instrumental case, but here, can it be way of speech? It seems to be
more in agreement with the context.
Some time ago we discussed how as a beginning of a question, and you were
right. I found in the tika that < katham> is used for <how>, very
interesting. 
Best wishes, Nina.
 
471
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: Siivaka Sutta

 
    Dear Jim, there is so much discussion of the Siivaka Sutta. I am reading it
now in Pali (K. S. XXXVI, 21). I have the Co in Thai, and I would be very
grateful if you could give me the Pali of Co and subco. That is, if it is
not too much trouble. I think I shall order the Pali text from PTS. but as
far as I know they do not print subco.
Thank you, best wishes from Nina.
 
472
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:50pm
Subject: Re: Siivaka Sutta

 
    Dear Nina ,
Bodhi in his note (page 1436) says that feeling here means painful feeling
>>>>> "kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling
directly induced by the first seven... is the sufficient cause only in the
eight
On kammavipakajani vedayitani SPK says that these are produced solely
(kevalam) as a result of kamma. Feelings arisen directly from the other
seven causes are not 'feelings produced by kamma' even though kamma may
function as an underlying cause of illlness. SPk says that this sutta is
spoken from the stadnpoint of worldly convention (lokavohara) "Because it
is is generally accepted in the world that (feelings) arise from bile and
so forth . Granted feelings based on the physical body are actually
produced by kamma, but this worldly convention is arrived at by way of the
present condition (paccuppapannapaccayavasena). Accepting what is said the
opponents doctrine is refuted">>
with respect
robert
--- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> Dear Jim, there is so much discussion of the Siivaka Sutta. I am reading
> it
> now in Pali (K. S. XXXVI, 21). I have the Co in Thai, and I would be
> very
> grateful if you could give me the Pali of Co and subco. That is, if it
> is
> not too much trouble. I think I shall order the Pali text from PTS. but
> as
> far as I know they do not print subco.
> Thank you, best wishes from Nina.
> 
> 


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473
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 8:35pm
Subject: Re: sabbasutta

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim, I read with interest the Co. to the sabbasutta and also the
subco.
> It helped me to compare the Thai with the Co. As to the Subco. , there is
> one sentence concerning the ayatanas and vipassana: ``aayatanasabbepi idha
> vipassanupagadhammaava gahetabbaa abhi~n~neyyaniddesavasenapi
> sammasanacaarasseva icchitattaa''ti vadanti.

"sammasanacaara" is a word in the above line that is not quite clear to me.

> I know Robert is interested in this also. I am not quite sure about my
> translation here:
> As regards the <all> of the sensefields, they state that here the dhammmas
> that are on the level of vipassana (have reached vipassana) that should be
> understood (gahetabbaa) and should be realized also by analysis, are
desired
> for the method of thorough comprehension.

I think your "should be realized also by analysis" is incorrect. See below.
"for the method of thorough comprehension" is okay. "method" seems to agree
with the literal rendering of "going about" for -caara.

My translation: In the all of the bases also, only the realities belonging
to insight are to be taken here, and by way of the _Exposition on what
should be clearly understood_ because of (it) being desired for just the
going about of (their) mastery [?].

I'm pretty sure that "abhi~n~neyyaniddesa" is none other than the section
having the same name near the beginning of the ~Naa.nakathaa in the
Pa.tisambhidaamagga where another passage on the "all" is quoted (ie.
sabba.m bhikkhave abhi~n~neyya.m . . .)

> I was surprised at the form gahetabbaa. The first va after
> vipassanupagadhammaava must also be eva, for emphasis.

The "eva" is the right reading. I take it in the restrictive sense
(avadhaara.na) of 'only' or 'alone'. The readings in the Burmese text can be
difficult to follow without the aid of apostrophes that show where a letter
has been elided. I think it would be printed in a PTS edition like
"vipassanupagadhammaa'va".

> At the end: yathaati kaara.navacana"nti, I know that kara.navacana can
mean
> the instrumental case, but here, can it be way of speech? It seems to be
> more in agreement with the context.

No, it can't be "by way of speech". "kaara.navacana" (an expression of cause
or reason) could easily be confused with "kara.navacana" (an expression of
the instrumental) although the instrumental case can be used to express
cause or reason among its other uses. The commentary explains that "yathaa"
is equivalent to "yasmaa" (because) in meaning.

> Some time ago we discussed how as a beginning of a question, and you were
> right. I found in the tika that < katham> is used for <how>, very
> interesting.

The -tha.m affix belongs in the same group that includes -to. The -tha.m
is added to the pronominal base of ki.m > ka and has the meaning of
'pakaara' (way, manner, mode) according to Panini which I assume is the same
with Aggava.msa and others. Hence: in what way or manner (kena pakaarena)?
how? Ittha.m (= in this way) also takes the same affix. The -thaa affix as
in 'yathaa' and 'tathaa' also share this meaning.

I hope you received the co. and subco. on the Siivakasutta I emailed to you
off-list. For the Tipitaka the only complete tika published by the PTS is
the one for the Dighanikaaya, and also the first several volumes of the
Anguttaranikaaya-.tiikaa by Sariputta are available. I have most of the
commentaries published by the PTS but I find some of them not to be all that
reliable and it is worth comparing them with other versions especially when
doing a close study.

I'll be leaving in about 10 days and will probably be gone for about 4
months or so during which time it is unlikely I will be able to contribute
anything to this group. I'm afraid I'm far from finished with the
Pabhassarasutta with its co. and subco. and time is quickly running out --
so it'll just have to wait until I'm back.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
474
From: abhidhammika <abhidhammika@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 9:34am
Subject: Memory : To Sarah And KKT

 
    Dear Sarah And KKT

How are you?

KKT asked:

"If memory is a cetasika
and lasts a very brief instant
and then falls away then
how does << recollection >>
or << recognition >> work?"

KKT gave an example:

"Suppose I meet Mr. X,
an image of X is a cetasika
making a mark in my 'mind'
but lasts only a fleeting moment."

Sarah has already given a very good answer to KKT's question.

I merely wanted to add a little bit. Hope it did not look like adding 
too much sugar!

When we see Mr X, it is true that the first visual consciousness 
lasts only a fleeting moment. But, to cover the whole of Mr X, the 
first visual consciousness alone is not enough. There is an 
uncountable number of visual consciousness cognitive series 
called "cakkhuviaanaviithi" to process Mr X. 

And each cognitive series comes with additional supportive 
consciousnesses in addition to the visual consciousness. This means 
that all consciousnesses within each cognitive series come with 
successive emergences of memory. This also means that there emerge 
countless reinforcing instances of memory to process Mr X.

In short, there has been sufficient mental processing time for the 
image of Mr X to be available for future retrieval.

Now, how could an entirely new future memory in a totally new future 
consciousness recollect, and recognize an image of Mr X?

The answer is to do with the fact that each of us is merely a mental 
chain that operates as a systemic whole. Every event that happens in 
one part of the system affects every other part of it.

When our visual consciousnesses first processed Mr X, our minds also 
performed various other actions in addition to merely seeing Mr X. 
Some of these other actions are efficacious ones 
called "javanacittas" that are capable of giving rise to future 
results. As these results are associated with Mr X, even though those 
results happen in totally new future mental events in totally new 
future circumstances, an image of Mr X becomes available for new 
instances of memory to retieve, recollect and recognize.

By the way, it pays to remember the function of memory in this 
context.

The function of memory is to retrieve, recollect and recognize the 
past events. A particular mental phenomenon comes to receive the 
name "memory" precisely because it is capable of performing the 
function of memory, which is connecting the present consciousness 
with the past events (Retrieval, recollection, and recognizing). The 
lack of such capability is called dementia, a form of mental illness. 

Therefore, nothing can prevent a future instance of memory from 
retrieving and remembering the work and result of a past memory as 
long as the past memory and future memory emerge within the same 
mental chain.


With best wishes,

Suan Lu Zaw

http://www.bodhiology.org

(Recent Denial of service attack to the bodhiology website has now 
been overcome. During the attack, the Science And Academic Journal Of 
Bodhiology has been redesigned into yearly archived contents such as 
Content 2000, Content 2001, and Content 2002. Therefore, old 
bookmarks for Journal articles are no longer valid. Please kindly 
update your bookmarks if you had them.)
 
475
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Mar 28, 2002 0:38am
Subject: Co. to Sivaka sutta

 
    3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
N: The chapter on the hundred and eight.
1. siivakasuttava.n.nanaa
The Commentary on the Svaka Sutta

269. tatiyavaggassa pa.thame mo.liyasiivakoti siivakoti tassa naama.m.
cuu.laa panassa atthi, tasmaa mo.liyasiivakoti vuccati. paribbaajakoti
channaparibbaajako.

N: With reference to the first sutta of the third chapter. <moliyasvaka> ,
his name is Sivaka. However, he has a topknot and therefore he is called
Svaka of the Topknot. <The wanderer>, namely, the wanderer who is clothed.

pittasamu.t.thaanaaniiti pittapaccayaani. vedayitaaniiti vedanaa. tattha
pittapaccayaa tisso vedanaa uppajjanti. katha.m?

N: <originated from bile>, meaning, with bile as condition. <experienced>,
said with reference to feelings. In his case feelings arise conditioned by
bile. How?

ekacco hi``pitta.m me kupita.m dujjaana.m kho pana jiivita''nti daana.m
deti, siila.m samaadiyati uposathakamma.m karoti, evamassa kusalavedanaa
uppajjati. 

N: Someone says, <bile oppresses me and it is difficult to know (the length
of) my lifespan> and (therefore) he performs generosity, observes morality,
keeps the observance day, and thus, in his case wholesome feelings arise.

ekacco``pittabhesajja.m karissaamii''ti paa.na.m hanati, adinna.m aadiyati,
musaa bha.nati, dasa dussiilyakammaani karoti, evamassa akusalavedanaa
uppajjati. 

N: Someone says, < I shall produce medicine to cure the bile>, and thus, he
kills living beings, he steals, tells a lie, he performs the ten evil deeds,
and hence, in his case unwholesome feelings arise.

ekacco ``ettakenapi me bhesajjakara.nena pitta.m na vuupasammati, ala.m ya.m
hoti. ta.m hotuu''ti majjhatto kaayikavedana.m adhivaasento nipajjati, eva.m
assa abyaakatavedanaa uppajjati.

N: Someone says, < the bile is not allayed no matter by what medicine that I
produce. I have enough of it, so be it. > While he with equanimity endures
the bodily feeling he lies down, and in his case indeterminate feelings
arise. 
****
 
476
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 28, 2002 0:48am
Subject: Re: Co. to Sivaka sutta

 
    Dear Nina,
Once you have finished the commentary I will put it along with the sutta
on abhidhamma.org.
with respect
robert
--- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> 3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
> N: The chapter on the hundred and eight.
> 1. siivakasuttava.n.nanaa
> The Commentary on the Svaka Sutta
> 
> 269. tatiyavaggassa pa.thame mo.liyasiivakoti siivakoti tassa naama.m.
> cuu.laa panassa atthi, tasmaa mo.liyasiivakoti vuccati. paribbaajakoti
> channaparibbaajako.
> 
> N: With reference to the first sutta of the third chapter.
> <moliyasvaka> ,
> his name is Sivaka. However, he has a topknot and therefore he is called
> Svaka of the Topknot. <The wanderer>, namely, the wanderer who is
> clothed.
> 
> pittasamu.t.thaanaaniiti pittapaccayaani. vedayitaaniiti vedanaa. tattha
> pittapaccayaa tisso vedanaa uppajjanti. katha.m?
> 
> N: <originated from bile>, meaning, with bile as condition.
> <experienced>,
> said with reference to feelings. In his case feelings arise conditioned
> by
> bile. How?
> 
> ekacco hi``pitta.m me kupita.m dujjaana.m kho pana jiivita''nti daana.m
> deti, siila.m samaadiyati uposathakamma.m karoti, evamassa kusalavedanaa
> uppajjati. 
> 
> N: Someone says, <bile oppresses me and it is difficult to know (the
> length
> of) my lifespan> and (therefore) he performs generosity, observes
> morality,
> keeps the observance day, and thus, in his case wholesome feelings
> arise.
> 
> ekacco``pittabhesajja.m karissaamii''ti paa.na.m hanati, adinna.m
> aadiyati,
> musaa bha.nati, dasa dussiilyakammaani karoti, evamassa akusalavedanaa
> uppajjati. 
> 
> N: Someone says, < I shall produce medicine to cure the bile>, and thus,
> he
> kills living beings, he steals, tells a lie, he performs the ten evil
> deeds,
> and hence, in his case unwholesome feelings arise.
> 
> ekacco ``ettakenapi me bhesajjakara.nena pitta.m na vuupasammati, ala.m
> ya.m
> hoti. ta.m hotuu''ti majjhatto kaayikavedana.m adhivaasento nipajjati,
> eva.m
> assa abyaakatavedanaa uppajjati.
> 
> N: Someone says, < the bile is not allayed no matter by what medicine
> that I
> produce. I have enough of it, so be it. > While he with equanimity
> endures
> the bodily feeling he lies down, and in his case indeterminate feelings
> arise. 
> ****
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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477
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Mar 28, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Sivaka sutta, Pali and translation by Ven. Nyanaponika

 
    Dear friends, here is the text of the Sivaka sutta with Pali and the
translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, but I added a sentence that was omitted, at
least, comparing it with my Pali text. Manuscripts differ sometimes. Also I
added at the end the repeat that Ven Nyanaponika omitted and also the last
sentence, adding up the eight factors. Nina.

1. siivakasutta.m 
sivaka sutta with the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika.

269. eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa raajagahe viharati ve.luvane kalandakanivaape.
atha kho mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami;
upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavataa saddhi.m sammodi.
sammodaniiya.m katha.m saara.niiya.m viitisaaretvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi.

Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at
the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by
name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and
friendly words, sat down at one side.

ekamanta.m nisinno kho mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako bhagavanta.m etadavoca --
``santi, bho gotama, eke sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino eva.mdi.t.thino --
`ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa
adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. idha bhava.m gotamo
kimaahaa''ti?

Thus seated, he said:

"There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this
doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now,
what does the revered Gotama say about this?"

``pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani vedayitaani
uppajjanti. saamampi kho eta.m, siivaka, veditabba.m yathaa
pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti; lokassapi kho
eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m yathaa pittasamu.t.thaanaanipi idhekaccaani
vedayitaani uppajjanti.

"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds
of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world
it is accepted as true.

tatra, siivaka, ye te sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino eva.mdi.t.thino --
`ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa
adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. ya~nca saama.m ~naata.m
ta~nca atidhaavanti, ya~nca loke saccasammata.m ta~nca atidhaavanti. tasmaa
tesa.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m micchaati vadaami.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that
'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then
they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true
by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these
ascetics and brahmans."

``semhasamu.t.thaanaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0... vaatasamu.t.thaanaanipi kho,
siivaka...pe0... sannipaatikaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0...
utupari.naamajaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0... visamaparihaarajaanipi kho,
siivaka...pe0... opakkamikaanipi kho, siivaka...pe0... kammavipaakajaanipi
kho, siivaka, idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti. saamampi kho eta.m,
siivaka, veditabba.m. yathaa kammavipaakajaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani
uppajjanti; lokassapi kho eta.m, siivaka, saccasammata.m.
Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of
wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse
behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that),
Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be
known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

yathaa kammavipaakajaanipi idhekaccaani vedayitaani uppajjanti;

Nina: according as some feelings arise as the results of kamma,

tatra, siivaka, ye te sama.nabraahma.naa eva.mvaadino eva.mdi.t.thino --
`ya.m ki~ncaaya.m purisapuggalo pa.tisa.mvedeti sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa
adukkhamasukha.m vaa sabba.m ta.m pubbekatahetuu'ti. ya~nca saama.m ~naata.m
ta~nca atidhaavanti ya~nca loke saccasammata.m ta~nca atidhaavanti. tasmaa
tesa.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m micchaati vadaamiiti.

Ny: "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that
'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or
neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then
they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true
by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these
ascetics and brahmans.

eva.m vutte, mo.liyasiivako paribbaajako bhagavanta.m etadavoca --
`abhikkanta.m, bho gotama, abhikkanta.m, bho gotama ...pe0... upaasaka.m
ma.m bhava.m gotamo dhaaretu ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m gata'''nti.

When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is
excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the revered
Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in
him as long as life lasts."

``pitta.m semha~nca vaato ca, sannipaataa utuuni ca.
visama.m opakkamika.m, kammavipaakena a.t.thamii''ti.. pa.thama.m.

Nina: <bile, phlegm and winds, bodily humours and climate. adverse
behaviour, injury, with result of kamma they are eight.>, was said. the
first sutta. 

******





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
478
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:09am
Subject: medical advice on bile

 
    Dear friends, I have a puzzle here on bile, pitta, in the Co to the Sivaka
Sutta. Dear Suan, I would appreciate your advice, but please do not answer
if you have no time. I know you are busy.
The difficulty is the following:
lokopi hissa sariire sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m disvaa ``pittamassa
kupita''nti jaanaati.
The words sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m, va.n.na is colour or appearance,
sabala: bala is force , with force. Also (common) people (in the world) when
they have seen in his body a change of appearance of the bile that is
swollen(?) they know that his bile is disturbed.
Can someone else see the bile? Only feel it when it is swollen? Num would
also know this? 
Thanks for any advice, Nina.
 
479
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Apr 1, 2002 11:57am
Subject: anupadesa

 
    Dear Num, I compared the Pali anupadesa in the Commentary with the Thai text
anuprathet, and thought of translating it into countryside. Padesa in Pali
is region, and anu prefix can mean continuous. The Thai word is not in my
dictionary. It stands here in contrast to the desert. C hange of climate
caausing disorders.

ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati,
anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi
utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama.

I did not get your post on bile, but only in a quote made by Sarah. I tried
to copy it, but it got suddenly lost. Still thinking on the text of pitta,
bile.
Best wishes, Nina.
 
480
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Apr 3, 2002 5:30am
Subject: Co. to Siivaka Sutta, part 2

 
    Co. Siivakasutta, Part 2. (I am sure to have made mistakes)

saamampi kho etanti ta.m ta.m pittavikaara.m disvaa attanaapi eta.m
veditabba.m. saccasammatanti bhuutasammata.m.

N: < Also by ones own experience indeed this (can be known)>, meaning: when
he has seen this change of the bile he should also know this by his own
experience. <It is accepted as true>, meaning: it is accepted as what has
happened. 

lokopi hissa sariire sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m disvaa ``pittamassa
kupita''nti jaanaati.

N: Also people in the world, when they have noticed in the body a change in
appearance of the bile that has an outburst, etc. they know, <his bile is
disturbed.> 

tasmaati yasmaa saama~nca vidita.m lokassa ca saccasammata.m atidhaavanti,
tasmaa. semhasamu.t.thaanaadiisupi eseva nayo.

N: <Therefore>, in as far as it is known by ones own experience and as it
is agreed upon in the world, therefore, they go too far. The same method
goes for feelings arisen because of phlegm, and so on.

ettha pana sannipaatikaaniiti ti.n.nampi pittaadiina.m kopena
samu.t.thitaani. utupari.naamajaaniiti visabhaagaututo jaataani.

N: Here again, as to the words < arisen because of the union of bodily
humours>, also with reference to the (other of the) three factors of bile,
etc. , they have originated from anger. As to the words, < arisen because of
change of climate>, they have arisen because of climate that is not
ordinary. 

ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati,
anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi
utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama.

N: For those who live in the desert a climate that is not ordinary (to them)
arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the
countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in
the desert or also at a seashore with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises
from change of climate originates from (all ) that.

visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya
carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani.

N: <Arisen because of adverse behaviour>, by carrying a heavy load or by
pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time,
who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on, that
means, arisen because of adverse behaviour.

******
 
481
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 0:02pm
Subject: corrections co Sivakasutta, Part 2, and 3.

 
    Dear friends, 

Here are notes by Num, that helped me to correct my Co. translation. I post
them here on this list, because Jim said that in his absence I could post
here, so that he may see it if he has access or later on.
Num: 
----------------------------------------------------------
ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati,
anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi
utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama.

N: For those who live in the desert a climate that is not ordinary (to them)
arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in the
countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live in
the desert or also at a seashore with (sandy) dust and so on. What arises
from change of climate originates from (all) that.

________________________________________________________________


Num : The British borrowed the word jungle from India, jangala = jungle.
Well, an English wood is not a jungle. Here are some history of the word I
got from Oxford & Webster websites:

******************************
In India, originally, as a native word, Waste or uncultivated ground (=
'forest' in the original sense); then, such land overgrown with brushwood,
long grass, etc.; hence, in Anglo-Indian use, a. Land overgrown with
underwood, long grass, or tangled vegetation; also, the luxuriant and often
almost impenetrable growth of vegetation covering such a tract. b. with a
and pl. A particular tract or piece of land so covered; esp. as the
dwelling-place of wild beasts. [Oxford]

[Ultimately from Sanskrit ja galam, desert, wasteland, uncultivated area,
from ja gala-, desert, waste.] \Jun"gle\, n. [Hind. jangal desert, forest,
jungle; Skr. ja?gala desert.] A dense growth of brushwood, grasses, reeds,
vines, etc.; an almost impenetrable thicket of trees, canes, and reedy
vegetation, as in India, Africa, Australia, and Brazil.
[Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary].

**************************

I am not sure whether it means a desert or not. Esp. when it also mentions
<
malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi> samuda can mean just any bodies of water.
There are some believes about the miasmas can cause cholera, malaria and
yellow fever. It just knew pretty recently that those diseases caused from
some microorganisms. A lot of the French died during Panama Canal
construction from yellow fever until someone (I forgot his name) drained all
the swamps and eliminated most of the mosquitoes then the yellow was under
control. In India Malaria is very endemic, my personal gut feeling is it
refers to some tropical milieu. I do not know exactly what anu-padesa really
refers to.

---------------------------------------------

visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya
carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani.

N: <Arisen because of adverse behaviour>, by carrying a heavy load or by
pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an unfavorable time
,who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a well and so on,
that 
means, arisen because of adverse behaviour.

Num: I guess <visamaparihaarajaaniiti, Arisen because of adverse behaviour>
comes from Vi + Sama + Parihara. Vi = not, Sama = equal, even, impartial,
holistic or altogether and Parihara = attend, foster or keep. In Thai it
translated to inattentive caring of one's own body.

Corrected passages of part 2:

ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati,
anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi
utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama.

N: For those who live in a waste land a climate that is not ordinary (to
them) arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in
the countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live
in a wasteland or also at the shore of a body of water with (sandy) dust and
so on. What arises from change of climate originates from (all ) that.

visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya
carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani.
N: <Arisen because of inattentive care of the body>, by carrying a heavy
load or by pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an
unfavorable time, who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a
well and so on, that means arisen because of inattentive care of the body.


Part 3: 

opakkamikaaniiti ``aya.m coro vaa paaradaariko vaa''ti gahetvaa
ja.n.nukakapparamuggaraadiihi nippothanaupakkama.m paccaya.m katvaa
uppannaani. 

N: <Arisen because of injury>, meaning, arisen, when people have arrested
someone of whom they believe that he is a bandit or an adulterer, and when
they injure him by means of beating him with knees, elbows or a club, and so
on. 

eta.m bahi upakkama.m labhitvaa koci vuttanayeneva kusala.m karoti, koci
akusala.m, koci adhivaasento nipajjati.

N: As to those who have received such outward injury, some people, as in the
aforesaid manner, perform kusala , some people commit akusala and some
people lie down enduring it patiently.

kammavipaakajaaniiti kevala.m kammavipaakato, jaataani. tesupi hi uppannesu
vuttanayeneva koci kusala.m karoti, koci akusala.m, koci adhivaasento
nipajjati. eva.m sabbavaaresu tividhaava vedanaa honti.

N: <Arisen as the result of kamma>, meaning, entirely arisen because it is
the result of kamma. Also with reference to these feelings that have arisen,
as in the aforesaid manner, some people perform kusala, some people commit
akusala and some people lie down enduring it patiently.

tattha purimehi sattahi kaara.nehi uppannaa saariirikaa vedanaa sakkaa
pa.tibaahitu.m, kammavipaakajaana.m pana sabbabhesajjaanipi
sabbaparittaanipi naala.m pa.tighaataaya. imasmi.m sutte lokavohaaro naama
kathitoti. 

N: Here, with reference to the feelings arisen from the seven causes
mentioned before, the feelings connected with the body can be warded off,
but as to the feelings that are the results of kamma, all medicines and all
ways of protection are not suitable for warding them off. In this sutta
conventional language has been used.

My remarks: kaya-vi~n~naa.na, body-consciousness is always vipaka, it cannot
be changed into something else. But in this commentary, the term saariirikaa
vedanaa is used in the last para. Saariira means body, thus, I translated,
connected with the body. That means all those instances of sickness,
accidents, injury etc. It is said that conventional language is used in this
sutta. When we consider feelings arising with kusala citta, akusala citta
and maha-kiriyacitta (of the arahat) we understand that not all feelings are
vipaka, results of kamma.
The fact whether kamma will produce vipaka is also dependent on other
factors that can be favorable for kusala kamma to produce kusala vipaka, or
to prevent akusala kamma from producing akusala vipaka; or there can be
unfavorable factors, preventing kusala kamma from producing kusala vipaka
and conditioning akusala kamma to produce akusala vipaka.
Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, mentions four
factors that can be favorable or unfavorable (Tathagata's Powers,439, 440):
1: gati, destiny (plane where one is born). 2: Upadhi, substratum, meaning
one may be born as a superior person or an inferior person. A beautiful
person though born as a slave, may not be required to do dirty work. 3:
kala, time, the time when one is born. 4: payoga, means. This can include
one's conduct. For details, one can read those paras.

I came across another sutta where I found in the footnote a reference to the
Sivaka Sutta: Gradual Sayings Book of the Fours, Ch IX, 7, Kinds of
Recluses, I quoted recently for Rob Ep, about the equisite recluse, who is
the Buddha himself:

...Now, monks, if rightly speaking one would speak of the recluse exquisite
among recluses, it is just of me that he would rightly use the words. For I,
monks, when invited enjoy a plentiful supply of robes, but get little if
uninvited; likewise as regards almsfood and the rest. With whatsoever
fellows in the holy life I dwell, their behaviour (towards me) in action of
body, speech and thought is generally pleasing, rarely displeasing. Again,
as to those afflictions which originate from bile, phlegm, wind, from the
union of bodily humours, from changes of seasons, from stress of
circumstances, from personal assaults, or from ripeness of one's kamma, such
do not trouble me much. I am free from sickness. As to the four jhanas,
which belong to the higher thought (adhicitta)... I am a winner of them at
will. By destroying the asavas I reach the heart's release... and abide
therein. So monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse
exquisite among recluses, it is just of me that he would rightly speak...

Footnote to stress of circumstances: visama-parihaarajaani, here, from
sitting or standing too long, and a reference to the Sivaka sutta: untoward
happenings. But with Num I think better would be: inattentive care of the
body. Parihaara means protection or care.
Nina. 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
482
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Co to Sivaka sutta

 
    Dear Friends, I oversaw a word in the beginning, namely the word tissa
meaning three (fem pluralis):
pittasamu.t.thaanaaniiti pittapaccayaani. vedayitaaniiti vedanaa. tattha
pittapaccayaa tisso vedanaa uppajjanti. katha.m?

N: <originated from bile>, meaning, with bile as condition. <experienced>,
said with reference to feelings. In his case three feelings arise
conditioned by bile. How?

I shall see more mistakes for sure.

Nina.
 
483
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 10:33am
Subject: Co. and subco Sivakasutta

 
    Dear friends,
Here is the co. with some modifications, and the sub co of the Sivakasutta.
Observations by Num and Sarah (ayurveda) were most helpful.
In the subco there are these difficult expressions, and hopefully later on,
Jim could help me with these:
pittabhesajja.m karissaamiiti bhesajjasambhara.nattha~nceva tadattha.m
aamisaki~njakkhasambhara.nattha~nca paa.na.m hanatiiti yojanaa.
The endings: attha~nceva, in this context.
Nina. 


@a.t.thakathaa

rahogatavaggo dutiyo.
The second part on solitude.
3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
N: The chapter on the hundred and eight.
1. siivakasuttava.n.nanaa
The Commentary on the Svaka Sutta

269. tatiyavaggassa pa.thame mo.liyasiivakoti siivakoti tassa naama.m.
cuu.laa panassa atthi, tasmaa mo.liyasiivakoti vuccati. paribbaajakoti
channaparibbaajako.

N: With reference to the first sutta of the third chapter. <moliyasvaka> :
<Sivaka> is his name; however, he has a topknot and therefore he is called
<Svaka of the Topknot>. <The wanderer>, namely, the wanderer who is
clothed. 

pittasamu.t.thaanaaniiti pittapaccayaani. vedayitaaniiti vedanaa. tattha
pittapaccayaa tisso vedanaa uppajjanti. katha.m?

N: <originated from bile>, meaning, with bile as condition. <experienced>,
said with reference to feelings. In this case three feelings arise
conditioned by bile. How?

ekacco hi``pitta.m me kupita.m dujjaana.m kho pana jiivita''nti daana.m
deti, siila.m samaadiyati uposathakamma.m karoti, evamassa kusalavedanaa
uppajjati. 

N: Someone says, <bile oppresses me and it is difficult to know (the length
of) my lifespan> and (therefore) he performs generosity, observes morality,
keeps the observance day, and thus, in his case wholesome feelings arise.

ekacco``pittabhesajja.m karissaamii''ti paa.na.m hanati, adinna.m aadiyati,
musaa bha.nati, dasa dussiilyakammaani karoti, evamassa akusalavedanaa
uppajjati. 

N: Someone says, < I shall produce medicine to cure the bile>, and thus, he
kills living beings, he steals, lies, performs the ten evil deeds, and
hence, in his case unwholesome feelings arise.

ekacco ``ettakenapi me bhesajjakara.nena pitta.m na vuupasammati, ala.m ya.m
hoti. ta.m hotuu''ti majjhatto kaayikavedana.m adhivaasento nipajjati, eva.m
assa abyaakatavedanaa uppajjati.

N: Someone says, < the bile is not allayed no matter by what medicine that
is produced. I have enough of it, so be it. > While he with equanimity
endures the bodily feeling he lies down, and in his case indeterminate
feelings arise. 
****
saamampi kho etanti ta.m ta.m pittavikaara.m disvaa attanaapi eta.m
veditabba.m. saccasammatanti bhuutasammata.m.
N: < Also by ones own experience indeed this (can be known)>, meaning: when
he has seen whatever disorder in his bile-condition he should also know this
by his own experience. <It is accepted as true>, meaning: it is accepted as
what has happened. 

lokopi hissa sariire sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m disvaa ``pittamassa
kupita''nti jaanaati.
N: Also in the world, when people have noticed in his body a serious
disorder with bilious hue and appearance, etc. they know, <his bile is
disturbed.> 

tasmaati yasmaa saama~nca vidita.m lokassa ca saccasammata.m atidhaavanti,
tasmaa. semhasamu.t.thaanaadiisupi eseva nayo.

N: <Therefore>, meaning, they go beyond what is known by ones own
experience and is agreed upon in the worldf) therefore. The same method goes
for feelings arisen because of phlegm, and so on.

ettha pana sannipaatikaaniiti ti.n.nampi pittaadiina.m kopena
samu.t.thitaani. utupari.naamajaaniiti visabhaagaututo jaataani.

N: Here again, as to the words < arisen because of the union of bodily
humours>, also with reference to (the other of) the three factors of bile,
etc. , they have originated from anger. As to the words, < arisen because of
change of climate>, they have arisen because of climate that is not
ordinary. 

ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu uppajjati,
anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi
utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani naama.

N: For those who live in a waste land a climate that is not ordinary (to
them) arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live in
the countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they live
in a wasteland or also at the shore of a body of water with (sandy) dust and
so on. Feelings arising from change of climate originates from (all ) that.

visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa avelaaya
carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani.
N: <Arisen because of inattentive care of the body>, by carrying a heavy
load or by pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an
unfavorable time, who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into a
well and so on, that means arisen because of inattentive care of the body.

*****
opakkamikaaniiti ``aya.m coro vaa paaradaariko vaa''ti gahetvaa
ja.n.nukakapparamuggaraadiihi nippothanaupakkama.m paccaya.m katvaa
uppannaani. 

N: <Arisen because of injury>, meaning, arisen, when people have arrested
someone of whom they believe that he is a bandit or an adulterer, and when
they injure him by means of beating him with knees, elbows or a club, and so
on. 

eta.m bahi upakkama.m labhitvaa koci vuttanayeneva kusala.m karoti, koci
akusala.m, koci adhivaasento nipajjati.

N: As to those who have received such outward injury, someone, as in the
aforesaid manner, performs kusala , another person commits akusala and
another person again lies down enduring it patiently.

kammavipaakajaaniiti kevala.m kammavipaakato, jaataani. tesupi hi uppannesu
vuttanayeneva koci kusala.m karoti, koci akusala.m, koci adhivaasento
nipajjati. eva.m sabbavaaresu tividhaava vedanaa honti.

N: <Arisen as the result of kamma>, meaning, solely arisen because it is the
result of kamma. Also with reference to these feelings that have arisen,
someone, as in the aforesaid manner, performs kusala, another person
commits akusala and another person again lies down enduring it patiently.

tattha purimehi sattahi kaara.nehi uppannaa saariirikaa vedanaa sakkaa
pa.tibaahitu.m, kammavipaakajaana.m pana sabbabhesajjaanipi
sabbaparittaanipi naala.m pa.tighaataaya. imasmi.m sutte lokavohaaro naama
kathitoti. 

N: Here, with reference to the feelings arisen from the seven causes
mentioned before, the feelings connected with the body can be warded off,
but as to the feelings that are the results of kamma, all medicines and all
ways of protection are not suitable for warding them off. In this sutta
conventional language has been used.


@.tiikaa

3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo

1. siivakasuttava.n.nanaa
N: subcommentary to the Sivaka Sutta

269. cuu.laa pana assa mahatii atthi savisesaa, tasmaa ``mo.liyasiivako''ti
vuccati. channaparibbaajakoti kambalaadinaa
kopiinapa.ticchaadakaparibbaajako.

N: He has as a distinction a large topknot, and therefore he is called
Sivaka with the topknot. <A clothed wanderer>, meaning, a wanderer with a
woollen cloth etc. covering his private parts.

pittapaccayaaniiti pittahetukaani . ``tisso vedanaa''ti vatvaa taasa.m
sambhava.m dassetu.m``katha''ntiaadi vutta.m.

N: <Conditioned by bile>, meaning, caused by bile. After he had said, <three
feelings>, he used the word <how> and so on, in order to show their
origination. 

kusalavedanaa uppajjati pittapaccayaa. pittabhesajja.m karissaamiiti
bhesajjasambhara.nattha~nceva tadattha.m aamisaki~njakkhasambhara.nattha~nca
paa.na.m hanatiiti yojanaa. majjhatto bhesajjakara.ne udaasiino.

N: Conditioned by bile arises wholesome feeling. As to the words <I shall
produce medicine for bile>, this means, for the preparation of the
ingredients of the medicine, and, for that purpose, the preparation of the
ingredients of the material of pollen for that purpose, <he kills a living
being>, is the exegesis. With equanimity he is indifferent with regard to
the production of medicine.

tasmaati yasmaa pittaadipaccayahetukanti attano ca lokassa ca paccakkha.m
atidhaavanti ye sama.naa vaa braahma.naa vaa, tasmaa tesa.m micchaa.

N:<Therefore>, meaning, in as far as (feelings) caused by bile and so on,
are evident to oneself and the world, the recluses and brahmans who go
beyond this are therefore wrong.

pittaadiina.m ti.n.nampi samodhaanasannipaate jaataani sannipaatikaani.

N: Also with regard to the three factors including bile and so on, arisen
from the combination of bodily humours, (it is said,) arisen from bodily
humours. 

purimautuno visadiso utuvipari.naamoti aaha ``visabhaagaututo jaataanii''ti
. 

N: Not similar to the former climate, with the words <change of climate>
(the Buddha) said:< arisen from uncommon climate>.

anudako thaddhaluukhabhuumivibhaago ja"ngaladeso, vuttavipariyaayena
anupadeso veditabbo. malaya.m himasiitabahulo, itaro u.nhabahulo.

N: A wasteland, unfavourable land that is without water, harsh and rough
earth, (whereas) the countryside should be understood as contrary to the
aforesaid. With dust and very cold, or else a great deal of heat.

attano pakaticariyaana.m visama.m kaayassa parihara.navasena, jaataani pana
asayhasahanaadesaakaalacara.naadinaa veditabbaaniiti
aaha``mahaabhaaravahanaa''tiaadi.

N: Because of inattentive care of the body by unnatural behaviour, arisen
because of traveling at the wrong place and time and so on, that are
difficult to endure, and should thus be known; therefore, he said:< carrying
a heavy load> and so on.

parassa upakkamato nibbattaani opakkamikaaniiti aaha -- ``aya.m coro
vaa''tiaadi. kevalanti baahirapaccaya.m anapekkhitvaa kevala.m teneva.

N: Originated because of an attack by someone else, with the expression,
<arisen because of injury>, he used the words <this is a bandit> and so on.
<Solely>, meaning, not having expected a condition from outside, therefore,
he used the word solely (arisen because of kamma).

tenaaha``kammavipaakatova jaataanii''ti. sakkaa pa.tibaahitu.m patiikaarena.

N: Therefore he said, <thus arisen as result of kamma>. They (arisen because
of the other conditions) can be warded off because of being master of them.

lokavohaaro naama kathito pittasamu.t.thaanaadisama~n~naaya lokasiddhattaa.
kaama.m sariirasannissitaa vedanaa kammanibbattaava, tassaa pana
paccuppannapaccayavasena evamaya.m lokavohaaroti vutta~nceva gahetvaa
paravaadapa.tisedho katoti da.t.thabba.m.
N: This sutta is spoken from the standpoint of worldly convention; (the
feelings) arisen from bile, and so on, are designated in the manner of
worldly convention that is arrived at. The feelings connected with the
sensuous body are actually produced by kamma, but by way of the present
condition there is therefore this worldly convention; accepting what is thus
said, it should be understood that the opponents doctrine is refuted.

siivakasuttava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa.
N: The subcommentary to the Sivaka sutta is concluded.

****

484
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Apr 27, 2002 11:47pm
Subject: Re: Co. and subco Sivakasutta

 
    Dear Nina,
This is great. Once all the details are decided on I will put the suta and
commentary translation on abhidhamma.org
with respect
robert
--- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> Dear friends,
> Here is the co. with some modifications, and the sub co of the
> Sivakasutta.
> Observations by Num and Sarah (ayurveda) were most helpful.
> In the subco there are these difficult expressions, and hopefully later
> on,
> Jim could help me with these:
> pittabhesajja.m karissaamiiti bhesajjasambhara.nattha~nceva tadattha.m
> aamisaki~njakkhasambhara.nattha~nca paa.na.m hanatiiti yojanaa.
> The endings: attha~nceva, in this context.
> Nina. 
> 
> 
> @a.t.thakathaa
> 
> rahogatavaggo dutiyo.
> The second part on solitude.
> 3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
> N: The chapter on the hundred and eight.
> 1. siivakasuttava.n.nanaa
> The Commentary on the Svaka Sutta
> 
> 269. tatiyavaggassa pa.thame mo.liyasiivakoti siivakoti tassa naama.m.
> cuu.laa panassa atthi, tasmaa mo.liyasiivakoti vuccati. paribbaajakoti
> channaparibbaajako.
> 
> N: With reference to the first sutta of the third chapter.
> <moliyasvaka> :
> <Sivaka> is his name; however, he has a topknot and therefore he is
> called
> <Svaka of the Topknot>. <The wanderer>, namely, the wanderer who is
> clothed. 
> 
> pittasamu.t.thaanaaniiti pittapaccayaani. vedayitaaniiti vedanaa. tattha
> pittapaccayaa tisso vedanaa uppajjanti. katha.m?
> 
> N: <originated from bile>, meaning, with bile as condition.
> <experienced>,
> said with reference to feelings. In this case three feelings arise
> conditioned by bile. How?
> 
> ekacco hi``pitta.m me kupita.m dujjaana.m kho pana jiivita''nti daana.m
> deti, siila.m samaadiyati uposathakamma.m karoti, evamassa kusalavedanaa
> uppajjati. 
> 
> N: Someone says, <bile oppresses me and it is difficult to know (the
> length
> of) my lifespan> and (therefore) he performs generosity, observes
> morality,
> keeps the observance day, and thus, in his case wholesome feelings
> arise.
> 
> ekacco``pittabhesajja.m karissaamii''ti paa.na.m hanati, adinna.m
> aadiyati,
> musaa bha.nati, dasa dussiilyakammaani karoti, evamassa akusalavedanaa
> uppajjati. 
> 
> N: Someone says, < I shall produce medicine to cure the bile>, and thus,
> he
> kills living beings, he steals, lies, performs the ten evil deeds, and
> hence, in his case unwholesome feelings arise.
> 
> ekacco ``ettakenapi me bhesajjakara.nena pitta.m na vuupasammati, ala.m
> ya.m
> hoti. ta.m hotuu''ti majjhatto kaayikavedana.m adhivaasento nipajjati,
> eva.m
> assa abyaakatavedanaa uppajjati.
> 
> N: Someone says, < the bile is not allayed no matter by what medicine
> that
> is produced. I have enough of it, so be it. > While he with equanimity
> endures the bodily feeling he lies down, and in his case indeterminate
> feelings arise. 
> ****
> saamampi kho etanti ta.m ta.m pittavikaara.m disvaa attanaapi eta.m
> veditabba.m. saccasammatanti bhuutasammata.m.
> N: < Also by ones own experience indeed this (can be known)>, meaning:
> when
> he has seen whatever disorder in his bile-condition he should also know
> this
> by his own experience. <It is accepted as true>, meaning: it is accepted
> as
> what has happened. 
> 
> lokopi hissa sariire sabalava.n.nataadipittavikaara.m disvaa
> ``pittamassa
> kupita''nti jaanaati.
> N: Also in the world, when people have noticed in his body a serious
> disorder with bilious hue and appearance, etc. they know, <his bile is
> disturbed.> 
> 
> tasmaati yasmaa saama~nca vidita.m lokassa ca saccasammata.m
> atidhaavanti,
> tasmaa. semhasamu.t.thaanaadiisupi eseva nayo.
> 
> N: <Therefore>, meaning, they go beyond what is known by ones own
> experience and is agreed upon in the worldf) therefore. The same method
> goes
> for feelings arisen because of phlegm, and so on.
> 
> ettha pana sannipaatikaaniiti ti.n.nampi pittaadiina.m kopena
> samu.t.thitaani. utupari.naamajaaniiti visabhaagaututo jaataani.
> 
> N: Here again, as to the words < arisen because of the union of bodily
> humours>, also with reference to (the other of) the three factors of
> bile,
> etc. , they have originated from anger. As to the words, < arisen
> because of
> change of climate>, they have arisen because of climate that is not
> ordinary. 
> 
> ja"ngaladesavaasiina~nhi anupadese vasantaana.m visabhaago utu
> uppajjati,
> anupadesavaasiina~nca ja"ngaladeseti eva.m
> malayasamuddatiiraadivasenaapi
> utuvisabhaagataa uppajjatiyeva. tato jaataati utupari.naamajaataani
> naama.
> 
> N: For those who live in a waste land a climate that is not ordinary (to
> them) arises when they live in the countryside, and for those who live
> in
> the countryside a climate that is not common (to them) arises when they
> live
> in a wasteland or also at the shore of a body of water with (sandy) dust
> and
> so on. Feelings arising from change of climate originates from (all )
> that.
> 
> visamaparihaarajaaniiti mahaabhaaravahanasudhaako.t.tanaadito vaa 
> avelaaya
> carantassa sappa.da.msakuupapaataadito vaa visamaparihaarato jaataani.
> N: <Arisen because of inattentive care of the body>, by carrying a heavy
> load or by pounding lime and so on, or for a person who travels at an
> unfavorable time, who is then bitten by a snake or gadfly or falls into
> a
> well and so on, that means arisen because of inattentive care of the
> body.
> 
> *****
> opakkamikaaniiti ``aya.m coro vaa paaradaariko vaa''ti gahetvaa
> ja.n.nukakapparamuggaraadiihi nippothanaupakkama.m paccaya.m katvaa
> uppannaani. 
> 
> N: <Arisen because of injury>, meaning, arisen, when people have
> arrested
> someone of whom they believe that he is a bandit or an adulterer, and
> when
> they injure him by means of beating him with knees, elbows or a club,
> and so
> on. 
> 
> eta.m bahi upakkama.m labhitvaa koci vuttanayeneva kusala.m karoti, koci
> akusala.m, koci adhivaasento nipajjati.
> 
> N: As to those who have received such outward injury, someone, as in the
> aforesaid manner, performs kusala , another person commits akusala and
> another person again lies down enduring it patiently.
> 
> kammavipaakajaaniiti kevala.m kammavipaakato, jaataani. tesupi hi
> uppannesu
> vuttanayeneva koci kusala.m karoti, koci akusala.m, koci adhivaasento
> nipajjati. eva.m sabbavaaresu tividhaava vedanaa honti.
> 
> N: <Arisen as the result of kamma>, meaning, solely arisen because it is
> the
> result of kamma. Also with reference to these feelings that have arisen,
> someone, as in the aforesaid manner, performs kusala, another person
> commits akusala and another person again lies down enduring it
> patiently.
> 
> tattha purimehi sattahi kaara.nehi uppannaa saariirikaa vedanaa sakkaa
> pa.tibaahitu.m, kammavipaakajaana.m pana sabbabhesajjaanipi
> sabbaparittaanipi naala.m pa.tighaataaya. imasmi.m sutte lokavohaaro
> naama
> kathitoti. 
> 
> N: Here, with reference to the feelings arisen from the seven causes
> mentioned before, the feelings connected with the body can be warded
> off,
> but as to the feelings that are the results of kamma, all medicines and
> all
> ways of protection are not suitable for warding them off. In this sutta
> conventional language has been used.
> 
> 
> @.tiikaa
> 
> 3. a.t.thasatapariyaayavaggo
> 
> 1. siivakasuttava.n.nanaa
> N: subcommentary to the Sivaka Sutta
> 
> 269. cuu.laa pana assa mahatii atthi savisesaa, tasmaa
> ``mo.liyasiivako''ti
> vuccati. channaparibbaajakoti kambalaadinaa
> kopiinapa.ticchaadakaparibbaajako.
> 
> N: He has as a distinction a large topknot, and therefore he is called
> Sivaka with the topknot. <A clothed wanderer>, meaning, a wanderer with
> a
> woollen cloth etc. covering his private parts.
> 
> pittapaccayaaniiti pittahetukaani . ``tisso vedanaa''ti vatvaa taasa.m
> sambhava.m dassetu.m``katha''ntiaadi vutta.m.
> 
> N: <Conditioned by bile>, meaning, caused by bile. After he had said,
> <three
> feelings>, he used the word <how> and so on, in order to show their
> origination. 
> 
> kusalavedanaa uppajjati pittapaccayaa. pittabhesajja.m karissaamiiti
> bhesajjasambhara.nattha~nceva tadattha.m
> aamisaki~njakkhasambhara.nattha~nca
> paa.na.m hanatiiti yojanaa. majjhatto bhesajjakara.ne udaasiino.
> 
> N: Conditioned by bile arises wholesome feeling. As to the words <I
> shall
> produce medicine for bile>, this means, for the preparation of the
> ingredients of the medicine, and, for that purpose, the preparation of
> the
> ingredients of the material of pollen for that purpose, <he kills a
> living
> being>, is the exegesis. With equanimity he is indifferent with regard
> to
> the production of medicine.
> 
> tasmaati yasmaa pittaadipaccayahetukanti attano ca lokassa ca
> paccakkha.m
> atidhaavanti ye sama.naa vaa braahma.naa vaa, tasmaa tesa.m micchaa.
> 
> N:<Therefore>, meaning, in as far as (feelings) caused by bile and so
> on,
> are evident to oneself and the world, the recluses and brahmans who go
> beyond this are therefore wrong.
> 
> pittaadiina.m ti.n.nampi samodhaanasannipaate jaataani sannipaatikaani.
> 
> N: Also with regard to the three factors including bile and so on,
> arisen
> from the combination of bodily humours, (it is said,) arisen from bodily
> humours. 
> 
> purimautuno visadiso utuvipari.naamoti aaha ``visabhaagaututo
> jaataanii''ti
> . 
> 
> N: Not similar to the former climate, with the words <change of climate>
> (the Buddha) said:< arisen from uncommon climate>.
> 
> anudako thaddhaluukhabhuumivibhaago ja"ngaladeso, vuttavipariyaayena
> anupadeso veditabbo. malaya.m himasiitabahulo, itaro u.nhabahulo.
> 
> N: A wasteland, unfavourable land that is without water, harsh and rough
> earth, (whereas) the countryside should be understood as contrary to the
> aforesaid. With dust and very cold, or else a great deal of heat.
> 
> attano pakaticariyaana.m visama.m kaayassa parihara.navasena, jaataani
> pana
> asayhasahanaadesaakaalacara.naadinaa veditabbaaniiti
> aaha``mahaabhaaravahanaa''tiaadi.
> 
> N: Because of inattentive care of the body by unnatural behaviour,
> arisen
> because of traveling at the wrong place and time and so on, that are
> difficult to endure, and should thus be known; therefore, he said:<
> carrying
> a heavy load> and so on.
> 
> parassa upakkamato nibbattaani opakkamikaaniiti aaha -- ``aya.m coro
> vaa''tiaadi. kevalanti baahirapaccaya.m anapekkhitvaa kevala.m teneva.
> 
> N: Originated because of an attack by someone else, with the expression,
> <arisen because of injury>, he used the words <this is a bandit> and so
> on.
> <Solely>, meaning, not having expected a condition from outside,
> therefore,
> he used the word solely (arisen because of kamma).
> 
> tenaaha``kammavipaakatova jaataanii''ti. sakkaa pa.tibaahitu.m
> patiikaarena.
> 
> N: Therefore he said, <thus arisen as result of kamma>. They (arisen
> because
> of the other conditions) can be warded off because of being master of
> them.
> 
> lokavohaaro naama kathito pittasamu.t.thaanaadisama~n~naaya
> lokasiddhattaa.
> kaama.m sariirasannissitaa vedanaa kammanibbattaava, tassaa pana
> paccuppannapaccayavasena evamaya.m lokavohaaroti vutta~nceva gahetvaa
> paravaadapa.tisedho katoti da.t.thabba.m.
> N: This sutta is spoken from the standpoint of worldly convention; (the
> feelings) arisen from bile, and so on, are designated in the manner of
> worldly convention that is arrived at. The feelings connected with the
> sensuous body are actually produced by kamma, but by way of the present
> condition there is therefore this worldly convention; accepting what is
> thus
> said, it should be understood that the opponents doctrine is refuted.
> 
> siivakasuttava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa.
> N: The subcommentary to the Sivaka sutta is concluded.
> 
> ****
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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485
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:31am
Subject: pali concordance

 
    Dear Group,
I'm thinking of ordering the 3 volume Pali Concordance from PTS - Is 
it useful?
 
486
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 0:43pm
Subject: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Group,
I know all of you are way ahead of me in using the various online 
pali resources. But in case we get a non-computer literate member I 
thought this will be of help.

Say you want to look up some text?
1. go to http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html
Then find the book etc.
Let's choose the first section of the first sutta in the DighaNikaya 
as an example. Now below I copied and pasted the text. Notice the 
problem: it comes with some strange characters!!
Dghanikyo
Slakkhandhavaggapi
1. Brahmajlasutta
Paribbjakakath
1. Eva me suta eka samaya bhagav antar ca rjagaha antar ca 
nanda addhnamaggappaipanno hoti mahat bhikkhusaghena""

What do do!!!?
Well, do not give up. There is a wonderful piece of software 
available called Palitrans (devloped by Andy Shaw). Oh what a wonder 
it is!
With two clicks I have now converted the above into: 
Diighanikaayo
Siilakkhandhavaggapaa.li
1. Brahmajaalasutta.m
Paribbaajakakathaa
1. Eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa antaraa ca raajagaha.m 
antaraa ca naa.landa.m addhaanamaggappa.tipanno hoti mahataa 
bhikkhusa"nghena"" Viola!
How is this possible?
No whys in Buddhism - it is simply the way it is.
To get this amazingly easy to use software go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/ ;join up and then you will find 
the software in the files.
If anyone wants me to explain how to install and use it please ask.
best wishes
robert
 
487
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:05am
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Hi, Robert:
Thank you for the useful information.
Is the software free?
tadao
 
488
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:35pm
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Robert, Tadao, and all,

Thank-you, Robert, for the useful information. As you may already have been
informed, I have just uploaded Andy Shaw's font conversion utility program
(Pt2REL.ZIP) to the palistudy files section for anyone who wants to get a
free copy without having to join the Pali group. It comes in a zip file so
you need to unzip it with another utility program like Winzip. PaliTrans 2.0
only works with the Windows 95 or higher operating system. I recently
started to use the program myself. But before that I had been using a simple
little macro program I created for Wordperfect 5.1 for DOS. Andy's program
is much more complicated to use and I find that I can't convert a complete
volume of say 700KB or higher (not sure what the limits are) at one go as
the program just closes up. I can get around it by converting the text in
large chunks. However, I do recommend this useful program for converting
texts like in Robert's example. One could also create a different character
conversion table to handle texts copied from the Budsir disk.

Robert, I will have more later to say on the Pali Tipitakam Concordance
which I have. I wouldn't recommend that you buy it. You'd be better off with
the searchable CSCD disk which works as a much more comprehensive
concordance and with faster results too! The disk is free but there is a
small shipping charge.

Best wishes,
Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:43 PM
Subject: [palistudy] Step by step to using Pali resources


Dear Group,
I know all of you are way ahead of me in using the various online
pali resources. But in case we get a non-computer literate member I
thought this will be of help.

<snip>


_________________________________________________________ 
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489
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:51pm
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Hi, Jim:
Thank you for the information.
The software you've mentioned is for PC.
Do you think it works for Mac too?
tadao
 
490
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:05am
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    ---
Thanks for putting the utility in the files Jim. I think it doesn't 
work with Mac'asaurus - (time to change to PC)....?
I have the CD Jim - it is so good but strange they put a block so 
you can't copy anything from it.
I didn't know you could program, Jim?
And thanks for the Concordance info - saved me a few hundred dollars!
best wishes
robert
In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert, Tadao, and all,
> 
> Thank-you, Robert, for the useful information. As you may already 
have been
> informed, I have just uploaded Andy Shaw's font conversion utility 
program
> (Pt2REL.ZIP) to the palistudy files section for anyone who wants 
to get a
> free copy without having to join the Pali group. It comes in a zip 
file so
> you need to unzip it with another utility program like Winzip. 
PaliTrans 2.0
> only works with the Windows 95 or higher operating system. I 
recently
> started to use the program myself. But before that I had been 
using a simple
> little macro program I created for Wordperfect 5.1 for DOS. Andy's 
program
> is much more complicated to use and I find that I can't convert a 
complete
> volume of say 700KB or higher (not sure what the limits are) at 
one go as
> the program just closes up. I can get around it by converting the 
text in
> large chunks. However, I do recommend this useful program for 
converting
> texts like in Robert's example. One could also create a different 
character
> conversion table to handle texts copied from the Budsir disk.
> 
> Robert, I will have more later to say on the Pali Tipitakam 
Concordance
> which I have. I wouldn't recommend that you buy it. You'd be 
better off with
> the searchable CSCD disk which works as a much more comprehensive
> concordance and with faster results too! The disk is free but 
there is a
> small shipping charge.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "robertkirkpatrick.rm" <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
> To: <palistudy@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:43 PM
> Subject: [palistudy] Step by step to using Pali resources
> 
> 
> Dear Group,
> I know all of you are way ahead of me in using the various online
> pali resources. But in case we get a non-computer literate member I
> thought this will be of help.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
491
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Tadao,

It's good to see you back online again.

> Hi, Jim:
> Thank you for the information.
> The software you've mentioned is for PC.
> Do you think it works for Mac too?
> tadao

I don't think the PaliTrans program will work on the Mac. It has long been
my understanding that a program written for the PC won't work on a Mac and
vice versa. There is a free program written for the Mac which can be found
on the following webpage: http://www.fsnow.com/pali/ that may be of interest
to you. Information about what the program does and other details will be
found there.

A text conversion program basically carries out a series of search and
replace commands with just a few keystrokes to initiate the process. In the
absence of such a program you can do the same thing manually (which is time
consuming) by searching and replacing all the same characters with one that
is readable on your machine. In a Pali text without capitals you may have to
repeat this procedure ten times. If your wordprocessor has a macro editor
you should be able to write a mini-program that will do all this work for
you.

Jim


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492
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:16am
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Hi, Jim:
Thank you for the information.
I will visit the Website this
weekend.
tadao
P.S. Have you started your Chinese treatment yet?
 
493
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Robert,

> Thanks for putting the utility in the files Jim. I think it doesn't
> work with Mac'asaurus - (time to change to PC)....?
> I have the CD Jim - it is so good but strange they put a block so
> you can't copy anything from it.

This may because you're using an earlier version such as ver. 1.1 which
doesn't allow for copy and paste but the newer version 3 allows it (saw your
query on the Pali group). There is a good conversion utility program
(cscdconv) at: http://www.fsnow.com/pali/ that you can use with the disk but
it only gives you copies of complete volumes.

> I didn't know you could program, Jim?
> And thanks for the Concordance info - saved me a few hundred dollars!
> best wishes
> robert

Some reasons for not buying the Pali Tipitaka.m Concordance:

1. It only covers the Tipitaka and not the commentaries.
2. It is unfinished and likely to remain so, at least in our lifetime. I
think it only goes up to the end of the p's (or m's?).
3. The 3 volumes that I have did not come bounded as single volumes but came
in many smaller separate parts (paper bound).
4. I don't think there are even headers on the top of the pages guiding you
to the location of a word like in most dictionaries and so it takes longer
to find the word you're looking for.

I had bought the concordance long before there were tipitakas on a CD disk
and found it useful back then but now I'm using mostly the CSCD disk for
word searches and finding references.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
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494
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 5:01pm
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Hi Tadao,

> P.S. Have you started your Chinese treatment yet?

Yes I have. I started my three months of acupuncture treatments at a Chinese
clinic in Toronto two months ago on Apr. 13. Just went for my 27th treatment
this morning and will keep going until my 40th treatment on July 13 at which
time I will leave Toronto and head back to Orillia and my cottage. I may
resume the treatments again next year. I'm also taking Chinese herbal
medicine which I can continue on with after leaving the city. I can't say
that there have been some definite improvements so far. I think I will have
a better idea later on. Sometimes I think I sense some improvement but I'm
not sure. For example, I think I may be hearing sounds in a slightly higher
frequency than before. Last Saturday, I was sitting in the waiting room of
the clinic when I distantly heard something like a temple bell coming from
upstairs. It kind of surprised me as the sound of a reverberating metal bell
is something that I don't normally hear very well -- especially in the
higher frequency range. A sure sign of improvement in my hearing would be to
hear the birds chirping and the kettle whistling both of which I could hear
back in the early 80s. I haven't seen much happening with my eyesight so
far. The Chinese doctor told me that because I've had this disease for such
a long time (45-50 years) the treatments would be long-term and any
improvement would come slowly. So I guess I just have to be patient.

Best wishes,
Jim



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495
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Jim,
Thanks for this. I downloaded the program and everything works Ok 
but I couldn't figure out how to save a volume ?? It could be very 
useful as I could save it all onto my harddrive and use a special 
search engine in addition cscd. I have version 3 of cscd.
Andy Shaw also wrote: 
Dear Robert;

If you only wish to copy a short extract from the CSCD:
a) select the text you wish to copy with your mouse (words, phrases,
sentences, paragraphs)
b) press Ctrl-C

This will copy the text to the Clipboard, and you can Paste it into 
any
other program you wish to use. You will then need to select the 
text, and
choose one of the VriRomanPali fonts to see the correct Pali 
characters.

Since there are "hard-return" characters and such in the CSCD text, 
I added
a feature in Palitrans 2.0 that will clean out most of that for you
automatically. There is a button called "Paste from CSCD" in 
Palitrans 2.0

If you then with to include the text in Velthuis ("standard
transliteration") format, you can use Palitrans 2.0 to do this.

a) select the text
b) press the "Pali Font to Standard Transliteration" button
c) then, you can "Copy and Paste" the text like you would with any 
other
program.""">>

Note that Jim has placed Palitrans in the files section.
best wishes
robert

---------------
In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> an earlier version such as ver. 1.1 which
> doesn't allow for copy and paste but the newer version 3 allows it 
(saw your
> query on the Pali group). There is a good conversion utility 
program
> (cscdconv) at: http://www.fsnow.com/pali/ that you can use with 
the disk but
> it only gives you copies of complete volumes.
> 
> > I didn't know you could program, Jim?
> > And thanks for the Concordance info - saved me a few hundred 
dollars!
> > best wishes
> > robert
> 
> Some reasons for not buying the Pali Tipitaka.m Concordance:
> 
> 1. It only covers the Tipitaka and not the commentaries.
> 2. It is unfinished and likely to remain so, at least in our 
lifetime. I
> think it only goes up to the end of the p's (or m's?).
> 3. The 3 volumes that I have did not come bounded as single 
volumes but came
> in many smaller separate parts (paper bound).
> 4. I don't think there are even headers on the top of the pages 
guiding you
> to the location of a word like in most dictionaries and so it 
takes longer
> to find the word you're looking for.
> 
> I had bought the concordance long before there were tipitakas on a 
CD disk
> and found it useful back then but now I'm using mostly the CSCD 
disk for
> word searches and finding references.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
496
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Robert,

> Dear Jim,
> Thanks for this. I downloaded the program and everything works Ok
> but I couldn't figure out how to save a volume ?? It could be very
> useful as I could save it all onto my harddrive and use a special
> search engine in addition cscd. I have version 3 of cscd.

In the program's window, highlight the volume (only one at a time) that you
want to save and press <convert>. Once it is saved to the output folder on
the hard drive a little screen will pop up saying that the job is done. You
may have to change the drive letter where the cscd disk is located. On my
laptop I have to change it from E: to D:. There aren't too many character
encodings (just 4) to choose from so you will have to use Palitrans 2.0 to
convert the vri encoding to the velthuis scheme or whatever other encoding
you want it in. Tell me if you have the same problem I have with Andy's
program in that it doesn't seem to handle large volumes at one go. I very
much like the velthuis scheme which looks great in Times New Roman and is so
much more practical and easier to use especially in list email and on
webpages. One problem with the cscd disk is that you have to load up the
whole volume whenever you want to look at just one paragraph or page. The
Budsir disk works much better this way in that it only loads up a page at a
time.

Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
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497
From: Robert <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:24am
Subject: RE: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Jim,
It all seems to work and the little box pops up (immediately) saying job
completed but I can't find the file where the conversion is located. It
seems to convert it too fast?
Does Budsir come with roman charcters and would it be worthwhile to buy?
best
robert

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Anderson [mailto:jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 12:32 PM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Re: Step by step to using Pali resources


Dear Robert,

> Dear Jim,
> Thanks for this. I downloaded the program and everything works Ok
> but I couldn't figure out how to save a volume ?? It could be very
> useful as I could save it all onto my harddrive and use a special
> search engine in addition cscd. I have version 3 of cscd.

In the program's window, highlight the volume (only one at a time) that
you
want to save and press <convert>. Once it is saved to the output folder on
the hard drive a little screen will pop up saying that the job is done.
You
may have to change the drive letter where the cscd disk is located. On my
laptop I have to change it from E: to D:. There aren't too many character
encodings (just 4) to choose from so you will have to use Palitrans 2.0 to
convert the vri encoding to the velthuis scheme or whatever other encoding
you want it in. Tell me if you have the same problem I have with Andy's
program in that it doesn't seem to handle large volumes at one go. I very
much like the velthuis scheme which looks great in Times New Roman and is
so
much more practical and easier to use especially in list email and on
webpages. One problem with the cscd disk is that you have to load up the
whole volume whenever you want to look at just one paragraph or page. The
Budsir disk works much better this way in that it only loads up a page at
a
time.

Jim


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
498
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 11:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Robert,

> Dear Jim,
> It all seems to work and the little box pops up (immediately) saying job
> completed but I can't find the file where the conversion is located. It
> seems to convert it too fast?

It does convert rather fast (a few seconds for me). The file isn't directly
presented to you by the program itself. You have to go to the folder where
the file was copied to (default: C:\cscd\temp). Use Windows Explorer or go
to the MS-DOS prompt. The file will have an unfamiliar name with numbers in
it and you might also see an error text file (just ignore or delete). I
would change the name of the large file so that you can easily recognize it
like an1.txt, an1-a.txt (atthakatha), an1-t.txt (tika), etc. and move it
into another folder where you want to store all these texts and clean out
the temp folder for the next time you use the cscdconv program.

> Does Budsir come with roman charcters and would it be worthwhile to buy?

Yes it does. I think you'll find all the details at budsir.org and possibly
a demo to download. There is a disk for folks like us and another one for
the Thai speaker with translations in Thai. The texts of the disk is
accessible online like at tipitaka.org but there are some major differences
and copying a text from the website is not an easy matter. I tried and
failed. I don't know if the disk would be worthwhile for you to buy as it
all depends on what you want to do. It's very expensive (US$299) and the
disk has only a couple of tikas. I bought Budsir IV for DOS in 1996 before
the CSCD became available. I'm only familiar with the older version of
Budsir and can only speak for the one I have. It makes copying a text very
difficult and you can only copy a few pages at a time which is save in a
file which you then have to go to in MS-DOS and do some converting and
cleaning up to make it useable. I only use the disk sparingly and usually
when I want to do a close comparison of different versions of the same text.

Would you or anyone else here by chance know of a 12-fold classification of
dhammaaramm.ana-s? I'm familiar with the 6-fold classification in the
Abhidhammatthasangaha but the 12-fold one is new to me. It's in the
Patisambhidamagga commentary near the beginning of the
sutamaya~naa.naniddeso in the part that deals with the all (sabba.m
bhikkhave abhi~n~neyya.m). Dhammas are defined as: "dvaadaspabhedaa
dhammaaramma.naa" but there is no explanation of what the twelve categories
are.

Best wishes,
Jim


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499
From: Robert <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 15, 2002 8:54am
Subject: RE: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Jim,
Thanks, I tried but somehow it is not working or I am working it wrong,: I
go to the temp file but click on it and nothing coming ups; but nevermind I
can cut and pastee with the palitrans for now.
I won't bother with Busdsir- appreciate you coments.
I wonder if the 12 bases (Dvadasayatanani) are meant in your question below,
they are somtimes called the 'all'.
best wishes
robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Anderson [mailto:jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca]
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 12:50 AM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Re: Step by step to using Pali resources


Dear Robert,

> Dear Jim,
> It all seems to work and the little box pops up (immediately) saying job
> completed but I can't find the file where the conversion is located. It
> seems to convert it too fast?

It does convert rather fast (a few seconds for me). The file isn't
directly
presented to you by the program itself. You have to go to the folder where
the file was copied to (default: C:\cscd\temp). Use Windows Explorer or go
to the MS-DOS prompt. The file will have an unfamiliar name with numbers
in
it and you might also see an error text file (just ignore or delete). I
would change the name of the large file so that you can easily recognize
it
like an1.txt, an1-a.txt (atthakatha), an1-t.txt (tika), etc. and move it
into another folder where you want to store all these texts and clean out
the temp folder for the next time you use the cscdconv program.

> Does Budsir come with roman charcters and would it be worthwhile to buy?

Yes it does. I think you'll find all the details at budsir.org and
possibly
a demo to download. There is a disk for folks like us and another one for
the Thai speaker with translations in Thai. The texts of the disk is
accessible online like at tipitaka.org but there are some major
differences
and copying a text from the website is not an easy matter. I tried and
failed. I don't know if the disk would be worthwhile for you to buy as it
all depends on what you want to do. It's very expensive (US$299) and the
disk has only a couple of tikas. I bought Budsir IV for DOS in 1996 before
the CSCD became available. I'm only familiar with the older version of
Budsir and can only speak for the one I have. It makes copying a text very
difficult and you can only copy a few pages at a time which is save in a
file which you then have to go to in MS-DOS and do some converting and
cleaning up to make it useable. I only use the disk sparingly and usually
when I want to do a close comparison of different versions of the same
text.

Would you or anyone else here by chance know of a 12-fold classification
of
dhammaaramm.ana-s? I'm familiar with the 6-fold classification in the
Abhidhammatthasangaha but the 12-fold one is new to me. It's in the
Patisambhidamagga commentary near the beginning of the
sutamaya~naa.naniddeso in the part that deals with the all (sabba.m
bhikkhave abhi~n~neyya.m). Dhammas are defined as: "dvaadaspabhedaa
dhammaaramma.naa" but there is no explanation of what the twelve
categories
are.

Best wishes,
Jim


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
500
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 15, 2002 0:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: Computer miracles and patisambiddhamagga

 
    Dear Jim, first of all I read about your treatments and wish you all the
best. It would be great if hearing improves, that you could hear music, but
it isall bound to take long.
With admiration I read about what you and Rob are doing with computer,
copying texts etc. I find myself already heroic when I get Norton installed
on my harddisk or replace a toner cartridge for the printer.
I am not a type for websites, prefer books, so I am not sorry I have a Mac.
I like to dive into texts, teacup in hand, in my easy chair. I have many
commentaries now, but when I need a subcommentary, maybe I can ask you or
Robert. 
I shall look at my Thai edition of the Co. to Patisambiddhamagga,
interesting, the twelvefold classification.
I looked, but could not find it. I see a lot on the <word sutta> and then
the lakkhana etc. of ~naana, after that ch on sila. I shall paste this to
Num, he could ask his aunt.
Best wishes from Nina.

op 14-06-2002 17:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
>
> Would you or anyone else here by chance know of a 12-fold classification of
> dhammaaramm.ana-s? I'm familiar with the 6-fold classification in the
> Abhidhammatthasangaha but the 12-fold one is new to me. It's in the
> Patisambhidamagga commentary near the beginning of the
> sutamaya~naa.naniddeso in the part that deals with the all (sabba.m
> bhikkhave abhi~n~neyya.m). Dhammas are defined as: "dvaadaspabhedaa
> dhammaaramma.naa" but there is no explanation of what the twelve categories
> are.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>

501
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 15, 2002 10:36am
Subject: Re: Your Treatments

 
    Hi, Jim:
Nice to hear that you are responding to the Chinese treatments
(to a certain degree). Judging from your description, I am guessing
[in a conventional manner] that your impairments do not stem from
the peripheral systems. That is, both your visual and auditory organs
are intact. In many cases, hearing impariments are caused by an impaired
cochlea, which functions as a FFT (Fast Fourier Transformer),
decoding complex waveforms into simple (sine) waveforms. One end of
the cochlea is sensitiv to the lowerest frequency and the other end
the highestfrequency of decoded waveform (and the rest the in-between
frequencies). As you may know that the cochilia is filled with two
types of fluids being separted by so-called basilasr membrance,
to which hair (nerve) cells are attached. Many patients with hearing
impairments sucessfuly receive cochlea implants. (In fact, it is not
an implant of the entire cochlea, but a (re-)wiring of auditory channels
inside the organ.) In your case, the problem seems to be beyond the area
of hair cells. My guess is that your Chinese doctor is trying to stimulate
the limbic system, which contains such cerebral organs as thalamus,
which seems to be regarded as the primary recepter of sensary (including both
visual and auditory) stimuli. At any rate, I think, it is quite normal to
improve one's hearing in a selective manner (in auditory freuquency).
Good luck with your further treatments, and please remind yourself of "kantiyo
paramag na vijjati".
Take care, tadao
 
 
502
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 15, 2002 2:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: Computer miracles and patisambiddhamagga

 
    Hi, Nina:
How are you?
I thought you are in Sri Lanka now.
tadao
 
 
503
From: Robert <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:11am
Subject: RE: Re: Computer miracles and patisambiddhamagga

 
    Ha ha yes, I'm feeling pretty heroic myself, after getting all this working,
be glad to look up texts Nina. You still shoud make use of
www.tipitaka.org
It is just a matter of downloading and installing their fonts (for mac). I
will show you how if there is any problems; then they have all the
commentaries and texts in an easy to search format.
with respect
robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:nilo@euronet.nl]
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 1:49 AM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Re: Computer miracles and patisambiddhamagga


Dear Jim, first of all I read about your treatments and wish you all the
best. It would be great if hearing improves, that you could hear music,
but
it isall bound to take long.
With admiration I read about what you and Rob are doing with computer,
copying texts etc. I find myself already heroic when I get Norton
installed
on my harddisk or replace a toner cartridge for the printer.
I am not a type for websites, prefer books, so I am not sorry I have a
Mac.
I like to dive into texts, teacup in hand, in my easy chair. I have many
commentaries now, but when I need a subcommentary, maybe I can ask you or
Robert.
I shall look at my Thai edition of the Co. to Patisambiddhamagga,
interesting, the twelvefold classification.
I looked, but could not find it. I see a lot on the <word sutta> and then
the lakkhana etc. of ~naana, after that ch on sila. I shall paste this to
Num, he could ask his aunt.
Best wishes from Nina.

op 14-06-2002 17:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
>
> Would you or anyone else here by chance know of a 12-fold classification
of
> dhammaaramm.ana-s? I'm familiar with the 6-fold classification in the
> Abhidhammatthasangaha but the 12-fold one is new to me. It's in the
> Patisambhidamagga commentary near the beginning of the
> sutamaya~naa.naniddeso in the part that deals with the all (sabba.m
> bhikkhave abhi~n~neyya.m). Dhammas are defined as: "dvaadaspabhedaa
> dhammaaramma.naa" but there is no explanation of what the twelve
categories
> are.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
504
From: amarachayabongse <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:49am
Subject: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    > Would you or anyone else here by chance know of a 12-fold
classification of
> dhammaaramm.ana-s? I'm familiar with the 6-fold classification in the
> Abhidhammatthasangaha but the 12-fold one is new to me. It's in the
> Patisambhidamagga commentary near the beginning of the
> sutamaya~naa.naniddeso in the part that deals with the all (sabba.m
> bhikkhave abhi~n~neyya.m). Dhammas are defined as: "dvaadaspabhedaa
> dhammaaramma.naa" but there is no explanation of what the twelve
categories
> are.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim



Dear Jim,

I happened to look in just before I left for the foundation this
morning, where Khun Kulwilai found the volume you mentioned in the
Mahamakut Thai translations, Saddhammapakasini Atthagatha
Khuddakanikaya Patisambhidamagga, where the footnote to the mention of
the 12 dhammarammana reads:

1. The cittas and cetasikas certainly recieve arammanas. There are
twelve types of arammanas:-

1. kamarammanas = the 54 kama-cittas, 52 -cetasikas, and 28
-rupas
2. mahaggata-arammanas = the 27 mahaggata cittas, 35 cetasikas
3. nibbana-arammana = nibbana
4. nama-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
5. rupa-arammana = the 28 rupas
6. paccupana-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
7. atita-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
8. kalavimutti-arammana = nibbana, and pannatti
9. pannatty-arammana = atthapannatti and saddapannatti
10. paramattha-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana
11. ajjhatta-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
12. pahida-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana, and
pannatti

I hope this helps,

Amara
 
 
505
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 16, 2002 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    Dear Amara,

Thank-you very much for the interesting list of the 12 categories of
aaramma.na-s taken from the footnote of the Thai translation and welcome
back from Sri Lanka!

I'd be interested in knowing the original source of the list of 12. Perhaps
it is from the ga.n.thipadaa (sp? a kind of .tiikaa) on the
Saddhammappakaasinii. I tried searching for the complete list on the CSCD
but have found nothing so far and don't think I will as the term
paramatthaaramma.na wasn't found on it either.

I wonder if is correct to include pannatti in the following:

> 12. pahida-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana, and
> pannatti

I'm taking pahida-arammana to be bahiddhaaramma.na in Pali.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> I happened to look in just before I left for the foundation this
> morning, where Khun Kulwilai found the volume you mentioned in the
> Mahamakut Thai translations, Saddhammapakasini Atthagatha
> Khuddakanikaya Patisambhidamagga, where the footnote to the mention of
> the 12 dhammarammana reads:
>
> 1. The cittas and cetasikas certainly recieve arammanas. There are
> twelve types of arammanas:-
>
> 1. kamarammanas = the 54 kama-cittas, 52 -cetasikas, and 28
> -rupas
> 2. mahaggata-arammanas = the 27 mahaggata cittas, 35 cetasikas
> 3. nibbana-arammana = nibbana
> 4. nama-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 5. rupa-arammana = the 28 rupas
> 6. paccupana-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 7. atita-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 8. kalavimutti-arammana = nibbana, and pannatti
> 9. pannatty-arammana = atthapannatti and saddapannatti
> 10. paramattha-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana
> 11. ajjhatta-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 12. pahida-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana, and
> pannatti
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Amara
>



_________________________________________________________ 
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506
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 16, 2002 8:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Computer miracles and patisambiddhamagga

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim, first of all I read about your treatments and wish you all the
> best. It would be great if hearing improves, that you could hear music,
> but it isall bound to take long.

I've always been able to hear music to some degree but I'm sure that if my
hearing improves I will be able to enjoy and appreciate it all the more.
When I was much younger I learned to play some musical instruments like the
accordion, piano, and classical guitar. I think I've read that you like to
play Bach on the piano.

> With admiration I read about what you and Rob are doing with computer,
> copying texts etc. I find myself already heroic when I get Norton
installed
> on my harddisk or replace a toner cartridge for the printer.
> I am not a type for websites, prefer books, so I am not sorry I have a
Mac.
> I like to dive into texts, teacup in hand, in my easy chair. I have many
> commentaries now, but when I need a subcommentary, maybe I can ask you or
> Robert.

Just ask us anytime you need a copy of a subcommentary or some other text
from the CSCD.

> I shall look at my Thai edition of the Co. to Patisambiddhamagga,
> interesting, the twelvefold classification.
> I looked, but could not find it. I see a lot on the <word sutta> and then
> the lakkhana etc. of ~naana, after that ch on sila. I shall paste this to
> Num, he could ask his aunt.
> Best wishes from Nina.

Perhaps you're looking at the commentary on the maatikaa. The passage is
much further along near the beginning of the section starting with: katha.m
"ime dhammaa abhi~n~neyyaa". . . The following is an excerpt from the
commentary:

munaatiiti mano, vijaanaatiiti attho. attano lakkha.na.m dhaarentiiti
dhammaa. manoti sahaavajjana.m bhava"nga.m. dhammaati dvaadasapabhedaa
dhammaaramma.naa dhammaa. manovi~n~naa.nanti javanamanovi~n~naa.na.m.
manosamphassoti ta.msampayutto phasso. so sampayuttaaya vedanaaya
vipaakapaccayavajjehi sesehi sattahi paccayo hoti, anantaraaya teheva,
sesaana.m upanissayavaseneva paccayo hoti. -- from Saddhammappakaasinii.

Amara has provided a list of the 12 categories of dhammaaramma.na-s. I had
expected to see something different and more along the lines of the familiar
6 categories. Until I read this part of the commentary I had been assuming
that "dhammaa" here only referred to the paramattha dhammas but now it looks
as though it also includes pa~n~natti.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
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507
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 16, 2002 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Step by step to using Pali resources

 
    ----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Re: Step by step to using Pali resources


> Dear Amara,
>
> Thank-you very much for the interesting list of the 12 categories of
> aaramma.na-s taken from the footnote of the Thai translation and welcome
> back from Sri Lanka!
>
> I'd be interested in knowing the original source of the list of 12.


Dear Jim,

Thank you Jim, the trip was even better than I had imagined!

About the twelve arammanas, actually I wondered about the source since the
footnote itself didn't refer to one, but we thought that the
translators/editors of this version must have been the ones who added it. I
looked at the introductory message at the front part of the volume and saw
that it was actually signed 'Mahamakut', just one word, not even the
translation/editing team or anything of the like.

Perhaps other experts could refer something another source more complete, I
will also asked others, although one person we asked yesterday even said
it's just the six arammana counted different ways! But then this was the
same person who gave me some wrong information before also and I had to make
a public appology on another list when another lecturer gave me the right
info.

I will also ask KS when I next see her about your question, 'I wonder if is
correct to include pannatti in the following:

12. bahida-arammana [bahiddhaaramma.na] = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas,
nibbana, and pannatti.'

[Although to my mind, it has to be exterior, at least compared to the
thinking and memory of which it is compounded.] I will check with others as
well before next Saturday, but unless their thoughts are different I won't
write about it.

Anyway, the more reason to wish I could read the original Pali! Especially
the Singhala inscriptions in Ceylon, which was everywhere, Jim, including on
the longest single stone 'inscription' in the world, the complete story of a
King Nissamka and his invasion of India, a long altar like stone about 4 ft.
high and about ten times as long [I'll scan a picture for you soon].

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara



> Perhaps it is from the ga.n.thipadaa (sp? a kind of .tiikaa) on the
> Saddhammappakaasinii. I tried searching for the complete list on the CSCD
> but have found nothing so far and don't think I will as the term
> paramatthaaramma.na wasn't found on it either.
>
> I wonder if is correct to include pannatti in the following:
>
> > 12. pahida-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana, and
> > pannatti
>
> I'm taking pahida-arammana to be bahiddhaaramma.na in Pali.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
> > Dear Jim,
> >
> > I happened to look in just before I left for the foundation this
> > morning, where Khun Kulwilai found the volume you mentioned in the
> > Mahamakut Thai translations, Saddhammapakasini Atthagatha
> > Khuddakanikaya Patisambhidamagga, where the footnote to the mention of
> > the 12 dhammarammana reads:
> >
> > 1. The cittas and cetasikas certainly recieve arammanas. There are
> > twelve types of arammanas:-
> >
> > 1. kamarammanas = the 54 kama-cittas, 52 -cetasikas, and 28
> > -rupas
> > 2. mahaggata-arammanas = the 27 mahaggata cittas, 35 cetasikas
> > 3. nibbana-arammana = nibbana
> > 4. nama-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> > 5. rupa-arammana = the 28 rupas
> > 6. paccupana-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> > 7. atita-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> > 8. kalavimutti-arammana = nibbana, and pannatti
> > 9. pannatty-arammana = atthapannatti and saddapannatti
> > 10. paramattha-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana
> > 11. ajjhatta-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> > 12. pahida-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana, and
> > pannatti
> >
> > I hope this helps,
> >
> > Amara
> >
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
 
 
508
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 16, 2002 9:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Computer miracles and patisambiddhamagga

 
    > Amara has provided a list of the 12 categories of dhammaaramma.na-s. I had
> expected to see something different and more along the lines of the
familiar
> 6 categories. Until I read this part of the commentary I had been assuming
> that "dhammaa" here only referred to the paramattha dhammas but now it
looks
> as though it also includes pa~n~natti.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim



Dear Jim and Nina,

This was only the one source I found, and as I said, I will look for more,
one can never have enough confirmation, to my mind! Khun Krisna, a
foundation lecturer and Num's aunt, is one of the most careful students of
the dhamma and a wonderful source of correct information, she was the one
who gave me the proper version of a translation on another list, when
another lecturer had misguided me. I would be very interested to hear what
she says, if and when I meet her again I will ask her myself, also, but in
the meantime I hope to find her answer here on your list,

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara
 
 
509
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 0:05am
Subject: Re: Re: to Tadao

 
    Dear Tadao, no, we could not go to Sri Lanka. I was very happy to hear from
you again on the list. I missed your many short messages.
I read with interest your long message to Jim. You know a lot. I am also
wishing, hoping for his improvement.
Nina. 

op 16-06-2002 03:26 schreef miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca op miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca:

> Hi, Nina:
> How are you?
> I thought you are in Sri Lanka now.
> tadao
 
 
510
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 0:05am
Subject: Re: Re: patisambiddhamagga

 
    Dear Amara,
thank you very much, I find it very interesting. I tried so much to look it
up. 
Nina.

op 16-06-2002 08:49 schreef amarachayabongse op joychay@hotmail.com:


> I happened to look in just before I left for the foundation this
> morning, where Khun Kulwilai found the volume you mentioned in the
> Mahamakut Thai translations, Saddhammapakasini Atthagatha
> Khuddakanikaya Patisambhidamagga, where the footnote to the mention of
> the 12 dhammarammana reads:
> 
> 1. The cittas and cetasikas certainly recieve arammanas. There are
> twelve types of arammanas:-
> 
> 1. kamarammanas = the 54 kama-cittas, 52 -cetasikas, and 28
> -rupas
> 2. mahaggata-arammanas = the 27 mahaggata cittas, 35 cetasikas
> 3. nibbana-arammana = nibbana
> 4. nama-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 5. rupa-arammana = the 28 rupas
> 6. paccupana-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 7. atita-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 8. kalavimutti-arammana = nibbana, and pannatti
> 9. pannatty-arammana = atthapannatti and saddapannatti
> 10. paramattha-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana
> 11. ajjhatta-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas and rupas
> 12. pahida-arammana = the cittas, cetasikas, rupas, nibbana, and
> pannatti
> 
> I hope this helps,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>
 
 
511
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: to Nina

 
    Hi, Nina:
I've subsribed to Amara'd dhamma discussion group, learning a lot
from Khun Amara, etc. Also, I am getting CD's of Khun Sujin's Thai
radio programmes, which I've missed a lot. In short, I have been
slowly (re-)directing myself to the Dhamma.
Best Wishes, tadao
 
 
512
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:24pm
Subject: Re: Your Treatments

 
    Dear Tadao,

Thank-you for your informative and encouraging message which I much
appreciate. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with many of the terms you use as I
have hardly ever studied the structure and function of the ear before but
sometime late last year I began a detailed study of the eye. Your message
inspires me to also begin a study of the ear and I will probably go back and
reread what you said many times again in the future.

The medical name for my condition is called Usher syndrome (US) which is a
combination of nerve (sensorineural?) deafness and Retinitis pigmentosa (RP)
which is estimated to affect 3 to 5 persons per 100,000 (at least in North
America). According to Western science it is a hereditary disease and
researchers have identified the gene(s) responsible for it. There is no
known cure but recently there has been some success at implanting a bionic
retina behind the retinas of several RP patients in the U.S.

My Chinese acupuncture doctor, Prof. Xi, speaks very little English and most
of the communication between us is done through an interpreter, usually on
Saturdays. I really don't know what his take is on the disease and what he
is attempting to do. It was through Sarah and her acupuncture doctor in HK
that I found out about the treatment and Prof. Xi. Sarah can communicate
with her doctor much better than I can with mine and so she was able to
gather some good information about the disease according to Chinese medicine
earlier last year. He says that the disease is caused by an evil wind virus
in the nerve sheathing/insulation and the trick is to get rid of the virus
by building up the immune system. Now I don't know if Prof. Xi agrees with
this or not but I think I mentioned it to him when I first contacted him by
letter last fall.

I was at the clinic again this morning and another Chinese interpreter (who
I had met once before) was present after my treatment. Most of the
discussion was focussed on: if and how the treatments will continue on after
I'm finished the first round in mid-July. The Prof. said that a full
recovery is not possible but there is certainly room for improvement.
The interpreter is also a patient of the Prof. and has the same eye disease
as I have but without the hearing loss and has been receiving treatments
from him for the past two years. He is quite young and drives a car and in
fact gave me a ride back to my place. I will keep you informed of any
significant improvement should it come about.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi, Jim:
> Nice to hear that you are responding to the Chinese treatments
> (to a certain degree). Judging from your description, I am guessing
> [in a conventional manner] that your impairments do not stem from
> the peripheral systems. That is, both your visual and auditory organs
> are intact. In many cases, hearing impariments are caused by an impaired
> cochlea, which functions as a FFT (Fast Fourier Transformer),
> decoding complex waveforms into simple (sine) waveforms. One end of
> the cochlea is sensitiv to the lowerest frequency and the other end
> the highestfrequency of decoded waveform (and the rest the in-between
> frequencies). As you may know that the cochilia is filled with two
> types of fluids being separted by so-called basilasr membrance,
> to which hair (nerve) cells are attached. Many patients with hearing
> impairments sucessfuly receive cochlea implants. (In fact, it is not
> an implant of the entire cochlea, but a (re-)wiring of auditory channels
> inside the organ.) In your case, the problem seems to be beyond the area
> of hair cells. My guess is that your Chinese doctor is trying to stimulate
> the limbic system, which contains such cerebral organs as thalamus,
> which seems to be regarded as the primary recepter of sensary (including
both
> visual and auditory) stimuli. At any rate, I think, it is quite normal to
> improve one's hearing in a selective manner (in auditory freuquency).
> Good luck with your further treatments, and please remind yourself of
"kantiyo
> paramag na vijjati".
> Take care, tadao



_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
513
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:22pm
Subject: DSList

 
    Dear Group,

For some of you who may not have already heard about the new dhamma
discussion group mentioned by Tadao, here is how you can reach
the group if you're interested in joining or just dropping by occasionally
to read some of the messages in the public archives. The group is called
Dhamma Studies List (abbreviated: DSL). It was launched last
month by Amara as the list-owner and with me as moderator.

The URL of the homepage is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSList
To subscribe directly just send a blank email message to:
DSList-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Best wishes,
Jim

> Hi, Nina:
> I've subsribed to Amara'd dhamma discussion group, learning a lot
> from Khun Amara, etc. Also, I am getting CD's of Khun Sujin's Thai
> radio programmes, which I've missed a lot. In short, I have been
> slowly (re-)directing myself to the Dhamma.
> Best Wishes, tadao




_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
514
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 0:46pm
Subject: Re: Your Treatments

 
    Hi, Jim:
Obviously, your Chinese Professor knows what he is doing.
I hope that you can see some more improvements both with your
hearing (and also with your seeing capability).
(Not totally unrelated with the topic of your treatments, one day,) I will
discuss the nature of vision and speech processing, both of which are basically
illusions.
Take care, tadao
 
 
515
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Re:music and patisambiddhamagga, to Jim

 
    Dear Jim,
I play with Lodewijk, we play on two pianos, not only Bach, also Mozart,
etc. I play recorders, different sizes. I find that Music can be a doctor
next to medical doctors. I noticed this after I broke my wrist and had a bad
distrophy. If you feel like playing again, you could try whether it helps
your hearing. But it is difficult to advise others.
As to dhammaramana, pa~n~natti is included in this. It has six categories,
or, in the case below, twelve.
With best wishes with your treatments,
Nina. 

op 17-06-2002 02:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> 
> I've always been able to hear music to some degree but I'm sure that if my
> hearing improves I will be able to enjoy and appreciate it all the more.
> When I was much younger I learned to play some musical instruments like the
> accordion, piano, and classical guitar. I think I've read that you like to
> play Bach on the piano.
> 

> Amara has provided a list of the 12 categories of dhammaaramma.na-s. I had
> expected to see something different and more along the lines of the familiar
> 6 categories. Until I read this part of the commentary I had been assuming
> that "dhammaa" here only referred to the paramattha dhammas but now it looks
> as though it also includes pa~n~natti.
>
 
 
516
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:06pm
Subject: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    Too many things have clicked into place at the same time, and I can 
no longer postpone my Pali studies, which I am essentially just 
beginning. I won't be able to spend a tremendous amount of time on 
it -- just enough to raise some questions. [Since I know all of you 
from other lists, I will dispense with an introduction.]

1. I got a copy of Warder, which looks pretty good, but the style is 
somewhat different from the beginning European language textbooks 
I've read. In particular, it seems to be missing a concise but 
thorough summary of the grammar. Can anyone recommend something that 
gives such a summary?

2. Warder glosses "bhava" as "existence, good fortune," while 
Nyanatiloka uses the more active "becoming, process of existence." 
Nyanatiloka's certainly fits better with my understanding of bhava-
tanha, which raises an important question. Is there a good Pali-
English dictionary that anyone can recommend?

3. I ran across a sentence Nyanamoli translated as "`This noble truth 
[8fnp] must be penetrated to by maintaining in being the way leading 
to the cessation of suffering.'" I believe the Pali is "'Ta kho 
panida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasacca bhvetabbanti me.'" 
(Vin. Mv. 1:6), which raises two questions: (a) What is the 
convention here for pasting Pali quotes into posts? and (b) He seems 
to be using "maintaining in being" for bhvetabbanti. This has a 
peculiar feel to it... Can somebody help improve on that translation? 
Or is it just fine?

Nice to be here with you all.

Dan
 
 
517
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:55pm
Subject: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    ---
Dear Dan,
Very nice to have you here. I am sure to learn a lot listening to 
the comments you make. I have warder too, and used it in some 
classes with Peter masefield years ago in Sydney. My problem with it 
is that I still don't understand the English metalanguage, feminine 
masucline, and on and on. I bought some Latin grammar books which 
have helped here but need to look at them more.
What I am doing is ignoring the grammar for now and I read a 
translation alongside the pali - this improves my vocabulary and I 
start to get a intutive grasp for some grammar. A very coarse way to 
learn but...I especially use the pts translation of samyutta nikaya 
vol.4 for reading (along with their edition of the pali). I have 
Nyantilokas dictionary and the davids stede pali english dictinoary 
from PTS. Both are available on line.They are often hard to use as 
the different variants of a word and inflected forms mean that you 
are often not sure whether the word is the right one. The dictionary 
that comes with cscd is very convenient(just highlight a word) but 
only gives about 40% of the words highlighted.

The quote you gave: Ta kho 
> panida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasacca bhvetabbanti 
me.'"
I cut and pasted into palitrans 2 and it converts it to this form:
'Ta.m kho 
> panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m 
bhaavetabbanti me.'"
See the recent posts about this. I have managed to get the software 
that Jim mentioned working (wrote to Frank snow) and now have the 
whole CSCD installed on my computer in an easily search form. Write 
if you want more info. on this.
"`This noble truth 
> [8fnp] must be penetrated to by maintaining in being the way 
leading 
> to the cessation of suffering.' 
I am sure others can comment on the translation.



In palistudy@y..., "onco111" <dhd5@c...> wrote:
> Too many things have clicked into place at the same time, and I 
can 
> no longer postpone my Pali studies, which I am essentially just 
> beginning. I won't be able to spend a tremendous amount of time on 
> it -- just enough to raise some questions. [Since I know all of 
you 
> from other lists, I will dispense with an introduction.]
> 
> 1. I got a copy of Warder, which looks pretty good, but the style 
is 
> somewhat different from the beginning European language textbooks 
> I've read. In particular, it seems to be missing a concise but 
> thorough summary of the grammar. Can anyone recommend something 
that 
> gives such a summary?
> 
> 2. Warder glosses "bhava" as "existence, good fortune," while 
> Nyanatiloka uses the more active "becoming, process of existence." 
> Nyanatiloka's certainly fits better with my understanding of bhava-
> tanha, which raises an important question. Is there a good Pali-
> English dictionary that anyone can recommend?
> 
> 3. I ran across a sentence Nyanamoli translated as "`This noble 
truth 
> [8fnp] must be penetrated to by maintaining in being the way 
leading 
> to the cessation of suffering.'" I believe the Pali is "'Ta kho 
> panida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasacca bhvetabbanti 
me.'" 
> (Vin. Mv. 1:6), which raises two questions: (a) What is the 
> convention here for pasting Pali quotes into posts? and (b) He 
seems 
> to be using "maintaining in being" for bhvetabbanti. This has a 
> peculiar feel to it... Can somebody help improve on that 
translation? 
> Or is it just fine?
> 
> Nice to be here with you all.
> 
> Dan
 
 
518
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:01pm
Subject: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    Dear Robert,
I've done my years of Latin and Greek -- in fact I was a classics 
major for my first two years of college before switching to math! I'm 
amazed at how similar a lot of Pali grammar is to Greek and Latin, 
although the vocabulary seems quite different (except for the 
numbers). Yeah, I know. Generalizations based on the first three 
lessons from Warder aren't worth the pixels their radiated from, but 
that's my hypothesis for now: Similar grammar, different vocabulary. 

> is that I still don't understand the English metalanguage, feminine 
> masucline, and on and on. I bought some Latin grammar books which 
> have helped here but need to look at them more.

I can see how Warder would be formidable if you've never learned 
another inflected Indo-European language. I don't suppose Japanese 
helps as much (I'm assuming you know Japanese). On the other hand, my 
approach to learning language has seemed to change since studying 
Chinese, which doesn't have such a structured grammar. Instead, a lot 
of the learning is memorization and practice of various sentence 
patterns. With the Pali, I'm doing more reading and re-reading of 
sentences and less memorizing vocabulary lists than I did with Greek 
and Latin. I think this approach is more effective. 

> vol.4 for reading (along with their edition of the pali). I have 
> Nyantilokas dictionary and the davids stede pali english dictinoary 
> from PTS. Both are available on line.

If I don't have to sell everything I own to afford it, I will 
probably spring for a hard copy of the PTS. I'll put it on hold, 
though, until I make it to some real reading.

> They are often hard to use as 
> the different variants of a word and inflected forms mean that you 
> are often not sure whether the word is the right one. 

Yep. Greek is difficult in that way too. I suspect that with 
practice, it all gets easier.

> The dictionary 
> that comes with cscd is very convenient(just highlight a word) but 
> only gives about 40% of the words highlighted.

I really prefer paper, but the web dictionaries and CSCD are bound to 
be helpful too.

> The quote you gave: Ta kho 
> > panida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasacca bhvetabbanti 
> me.'"
> I cut and pasted into palitrans 2 and it converts it to this form:
> 'Ta.m kho 
> > panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m 
> bhaavetabbanti me.'"

O.K. That looks much better. I have Palitrans up and running -- nifty 
little program, isn't it. 


> See the recent posts about this. I have managed to get the software 
> that Jim mentioned working (wrote to Frank snow) and now have the 
> whole CSCD installed on my computer in an easily search form. Write 
> if you want more info. on this.

At this point, I have CSCD loaded onto my hard drive. I do searching 
with the little key-typing help pad that comes with it. I can see 
that getting burdensome if one wanted to do a lot of searches, but 
for now, I'm content -- concentrating on that grammar!

Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to learning more.

Dan

P.S. Sorry to talk your ear off today!
 
 
519
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:59pm
Subject: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    Hi Dan,

Welcome to the group!

<< Too many things have clicked into place at the same time, and I can
no longer postpone my Pali studies, which I am essentially just
beginning. I won't be able to spend a tremendous amount of time on
it -- just enough to raise some questions. [Since I know all of you
from other lists, I will dispense with an introduction.] >>

<< 1. I got a copy of Warder, which looks pretty good, but the style is
somewhat different from the beginning European language textbooks
I've read. In particular, it seems to be missing a concise but
thorough summary of the grammar. Can anyone recommend something that
gives such a summary? >>

I don't know off-hand exactly where you would find "a concise but thorough
summary of the grammar" in a Western-style textbook.You could try using the
table of contents in Duroiselle's Pali grammar for now which is available
online in PDF format. A thorough summary of the grammar would certainly be
quite helpful. Perhaps someone might know of one.

<< 2. Warder glosses "bhava" as "existence, good fortune," while
Nyanatiloka uses the more active "becoming, process of existence."
Nyanatiloka's certainly fits better with my understanding of bhava-
tanha, which raises an important question. Is there a good Pali-
English dictionary that anyone can recommend? >>

There aren't too many to choose from. The one I use the most is the Pali
Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary (PED) by Rhys Davids and Stede. A new
dictionary by Margaret Cone has recently come out which I'm planning to
order soon. Only the first volume (A-KH) has been published so far. I think
the old dictionary will still be useful to have alongside the new one. I
also think any Pali-English dictionary is worth having. The one by
Buddhadatta is a good one too and can be downloaded from the files section
of the Pali Yahoogroups list. The very expensive Critical Pali Dictionary is
the largest and most scholarly one published in the West (Copenhagen) but it
is far from being completed and I only have the parts covering the vowels. I
don't know if it has gone past the gutturals yet.

Dictionaries do have their limitations. The meanings of "bhava" that you
give from Warder and Nyanatiloka are only a few of its several meanings.
There is a good explanation of the word "bhava" in the fourth chapter of
Aggava.msa's Padamaala (the first volume of the Saddaniiti). I'm not too
familiar with the explanation so I really can't say much. It seems that six
meanings are given (vuddhi, sassata.m, sampatti, pu~n~na.m, sahokaasaa
khandhaa, & sa.msaaro). Perhaps 'becoming' correlates to 'vuddhi' (growth,
increase) and it looks like 'good fortune' correlates to 'sampatti'
(success). Existence and process of existence are harder to deal with. The
'bhava' in 'bhavata.nhaa' refers to the eternalistic view (sassatadi.t.thi).
I had to check with the commentaries for this explanation which goes
something like this: passion/desire (raaga) accompanied by the eternalistic
view. Di.t.thi has to be read in between bhava and ta.nhaa. I give this as
an example of how one could seek out the meanings of a word other than in a
dictionary or a glossary.

<< 3. I ran across a sentence Nyanamoli translated as "`This noble truth
[8fnp] must be penetrated to by maintaining in being the way leading
to the cessation of suffering.'" I believe the Pali is "'Ta kho
panida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasacca bhvetabbanti me.'"
(Vin. Mv. 1:6), which raises two questions: (a) What is the
convention here for pasting Pali quotes into posts? and (b) He seems
to be using "maintaining in being" for bhvetabbanti. This has a
peculiar feel to it... Can somebody help improve on that translation?
Or is it just fine? >>

To your question (a) the convention here for pasting Pali quotes is the
Velthuis scheme. You can use Andy Shaw's Palitrans 2.0 for converting your
quote to this scheme but I think because of its brevity it would be quicker
to just change it manually as I have done here:

"'Ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m
bhaavetabbanti me.'"

As to (b) the Pali quote does not match Nyanamoli's translation and so one
can't compare the two until the correct Pali quote can be found. It might
help if you could identify the book and page ref. where you saw the
translation and check to see if the Pali source is given. I couldn't find
any match in the Mahavagga.

<< Nice to be here with you all.

Dan >>

It's good to have you with us.

Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
520
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:45am
Subject: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., "onco111" <dhd5@c...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> I've done my years of Latin and Greek -- in fact I was a classics 
> major for my first two years of college before switching to math! 
I'm 
> amazed at how similar a lot of Pali grammar is to Greek and Latin, 
> although the vocabulary seems quite different (except for the 
> numbers). Yeah, I know. Generalizations based on the first three 
> lessons from Warder aren't worth the pixels their radiated from, 
but 
> that's my hypothesis for now: Similar grammar, different 
vocabulary. 
> +++++++++++++++++++++

Great advantage Dan. Nina has a background in Latin too. Very 
interesting, your education!


> I can see how Warder would be formidable if you've never learned 
> another inflected Indo-European language. I don't suppose Japanese 
> helps as much (I'm assuming you know Japanese). 
____________
No help at all. My japanese is simple conversations level, but they 
are too different anyway.
------

__________
> 
> P.S. Sorry to talk your ear off today!
_______
I cut out the rest of your nice post only so as to avoid 
duplication. Please talk more!
robert
 
 
521
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:05pm
Subject: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    Thanks, Jim. This is all very helpful. I've learned: (1) the PTS 
dictionary is good but not too expensive, (2) compounds don't 
necessarily equal the sum of the parts (bhavatanhaa is not the same 
as "craving for bhava"), (3) pasting Pali text into posts isn't hard, 
(4) translations can be misleading, and (5) 'Palistudy' is a nice 
place to hang out. 

I checked again on the Nyanmoli translation (from "Life of the 
Buddha"), and I do think I got the Pali excerpt right. Here's a bit 
more of the context (from Vin. Mv. 1:6(15)): [Numbers are mine]
[1] Ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccanti me, 
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m 
udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. [2] 
ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m 
bhaavetabbanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m 
udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, 
aaloko udapaadi. [3] ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii 
pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavitanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe 
ananussutesudhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa 
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

I believe this is the passage Nyanamoli translates as: 
[1] "'There is this noble truth of the way leading to the cessation 
of suffering': such was the insight, the knowledge, the 
understanding, the vision, the light, that arose in me about things 
not heard before. [2] 'This noble truth must be penetrated to by 
maintaining in being* the way leading to the cessation of suffering': 
such was the insight, the knowledge, the understanding, the vision, 
the light, that arose in me about things not heard before. [3] 'This 
noble truth has been penetrated to by maintaining in being the way 
leading to the cessation of suffering': such was the insight, the 
knowledge, the understanding, the vision, the light, that arose in me 
about things not heard before."

* Nyanaponika apparently thought the translation of [2] unusual, so 
he added a footnote here stating simply: "bhaavetabba.m: 'must be 
cultivated, developed.'" 

Any suggestions about [2]?

Dan
 
 
522
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 0:28am
Subject: Re: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    Dear Group: I've been noticing over the past 24 hours or so that some of the
messages posted to psg are taking a very long time to come through to me. It
looks like there is some logjam with Yahoo or Yahoogroups.

Hi Dan,

<< Thanks, Jim. This is all very helpful. I've learned: (1) the PTS
dictionary is good but not too expensive, (2) compounds don't
necessarily equal the sum of the parts (bhavatanhaa is not the same
as "craving for bhava"), (3) pasting Pali text into posts isn't hard,
(4) translations can be misleading, and (5) 'Palistudy' is a nice
place to hang out. >>

It's nice to hear what you've learned so far.

<< I checked again on the Nyanmoli translation (from "Life of the
Buddha"), and I do think I got the Pali excerpt right. Here's a bit
more of the context (from Vin. Mv. 1:6(15)): [Numbers are mine]
[1] Ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccanti me,
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m
udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. [2]
ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m
bhaavetabbanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m
udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi,
aaloko udapaadi. [3] ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii
pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavitanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe
ananussutesudhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

I believe this is the passage Nyanamoli translates as:
[1] "'There is this noble truth of the way leading to the cessation
of suffering': such was the insight, the knowledge, the
understanding, the vision, the light, that arose in me about things
not heard before. [2] 'This noble truth must be penetrated to by
maintaining in being* the way leading to the cessation of suffering':
such was the insight, the knowledge, the understanding, the vision,
the light, that arose in me about things not heard before. [3] 'This
noble truth has been penetrated to by maintaining in being the way
leading to the cessation of suffering': such was the insight, the
knowledge, the understanding, the vision, the light, that arose in me
about things not heard before."

* Nyanaponika apparently thought the translation of [2] unusual, so
he added a footnote here stating simply: "bhaavetabba.m: 'must be
cultivated, developed.'"

Any suggestions about [2]?

Dan >>

Thanks for providing a larger section of Nyanamoli's translation and the
text which certainly helps put things into perspective and I can now agree
that you had selected the right Pali quote after all. I also agree with
Nyanaponika that Nyanamoli's translation of the passage in question is
unusual. His translation of "bhavetabba.m" as "must be penetrated to by
maintaining in being" does not make much sense to me. "must be penetrated"
would be "pa.tivijjhitabba.m" in Pali. "pa.tivedha" is often translated as
"penetration" as in "penetration into the truth(s)" (saccapa.tivedha). I
also notice that he has left "ta.m kho pana" untranslated. I think I would
translate "bhaavetabba.m" simply as "is to be developed".

A suggestion:
Nyanamoli has a translation of the Dhammacakkappavattanasutta in The Path of
Discrimination. It would be interesting to see how he has translated the
passage in question for comparison. If you don't have access to that book,
perhaps Robert could check it out for us (it's in the Treatise on
Discriminations). You could also try looking at how others have translated
it. The sutta is also found in the Sa.myuttanikaaya (vol. 5 -- LVI.11).

Jim




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523
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:40am
Subject: Re: Re: greetings and a couple of questions

 
    Dear Jim and Dan,
I think the section in the Path of discrimination (XVI) p330 reads:
"there is this noble actuality of the cessation of suffering; such was the
eye that arose, ...the light that arose, in me about ideas not heard
before.This noble actuality of the way leading to the cessation of
suffering must be developed; such was the eye that arose, ..the light that
arose in me about ideas not heard before. This noble actuality of the way
leading to the cessation of suffering has been devloped; such was the eye
that arose, the knowledge that arose, the understanding that arose, the
recognition that arose, the light that arose, in me about ideas not heard
before"

Ida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasaccanti me, bhikkhave, 
pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu udapdi, 
a udapdi, pa udapdi, vijj udapdi, loko udapdi. Ta
kho panida dukkhanirodhagmin paipad ariyasacca 
bhvetabbanti me, bhikkhave pe bhvitanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe
ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu udapdi, a uda-
pdi, pa udapdi, vijj udapdi, loko udapdi.
best 
robert

Hi Dan,>It's nice to hear what you've learned so far.>Thanks for
providing a larger section of Nyanamoli's translation and thetext which
certainly helps put things into perspective and I can now agreethat you
had selected the right Pali quote after all. I also agree withNyanaponika
that Nyanamoli's translation of the passage in question isunusual. His
translation of "bhavetabba.m" as "must be penetrated to bymaintaining in
being" does not make much sense to me. "must be penetrated"would be
"pa.tivijjhitabba.m" in Pali. "pa.tivedha" is often translated
as"penetration" as in "penetration into the truth(s)" (saccapa.tivedha).
Ialso notice that he has left "ta.m kho pana" untranslated. I think I
wouldtranslate "bhaavetabba.m" simply as "is to be developed".A
suggestion:Nyanamoli has a translation of the Dhammacakkappavattanasutta
in The Path ofDiscrimination. It would be interesting to see how he has
translated thepassage in question for comparison. If you don't have access
to that book,perhaps Robert could check it out for us (it's in the
Treatise onDiscriminations). You could also try looking at how others have
translatedit. The sutta is also found in the Sa.myuttanikaaya (vol. 5 --
LVI.11).Jim_________________________________________________________Do You
Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.comYour use
of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

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524
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:32pm
Subject: bhaavetabbanti

 
    Hi Jim and Robert,
The reason I came across this passage from Vin. Mv. 1:6 is that I was 
looking for canonical description and understanding of what 'path' 
means. m's translation of this passage had a different feel to it 
than other passages I'd seen about the 4th noble truth (as truth to 
be penetrated rather than standards to try to live up to). 

Summary:
Regarding the 4th noble truth, the phrase: "ta.m kho panida.m 
dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me" 
appears in Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.

Translations:
'This noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering is 
to be developed' (BB in "Connected Discourses...")
'This noble actuality of the way leading to the cessation of 
suffering must be developed' (m in "Path of Discrimation")
'This noble truth must be penetrated to by maintaining in being the 
way leading to the cessation of suffering'(m in "Life of the Buddha")

Comment: 
To me, m's "Life" translation gives a stronger sense of the 8fnp as 
a set of rules to get really good at following so that they 
are "maintained in being" than do the other two translations. Then 
again, I don't rightly know what "maintain in being" means -- at 
first I thought it must be a somewhat stilted, literal translation of 
some complicated Pali word. Now, it just seems more like an 
invention. 

Questions:
Why such an invention? In order to portray the sense of meaning I got 
from the translation? Does anyone else get the same sense when 
reading that translation? How else can that translation be understood 
in English?

Dan

 
525
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Jim and Robert,
Very interesting comments on "bhava" and "bhavata.nhaa"... 

Jim: ...The 'bhava' in 'bhavata.nhaa' refers to the eternalistic view 
(sassatadi.t.thi). I had to check with the commentaries for this 
explanation which goes something like this: passion/desire (raaga) 
accompanied by the eternalistic view. Di.t.thi has to be read in 
between bhava and ta.nhaa. 

--> Dan: If bhavata.nhaa is ditthi (which makes sense), the sotapanna 
are free from bhavata.nhaa (which also makes sense). However, this 
bhava (being) of bhavata.nhaa seems quite different from the bhava 
(becoming) of paticca-samuppada. Isn't every grasping at a sense 
object really a ta.nha for bhava (as "becoming" rather than "being")? 
This moment to moment renewal of being (i.e. becoming) arises in 
response to the craving for the process of renewal, for "becoming" -- 
the monkey mind that grasps for object after object after object 
because each object turns out to be unsatisfactory. 

Is it fair to say that bhavata.nhaa is eradicated at stream-entry but 
ta.nhaa for bhava is not eradicated until arahantship? 


Dan
 
 
526
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:46pm
Subject: Re: bhaavetabbanti

 
    Hi Dan,

<< Hi Jim and Robert,
The reason I came across this passage from Vin. Mv. 1:6 is that I was
looking for canonical description and understanding of what 'path'
means. m's translation of this passage had a different feel to it
than other passages I'd seen about the 4th noble truth (as truth to
be penetrated rather than standards to try to live up to).

Summary:
Regarding the 4th noble truth, the phrase: "ta.m kho panida.m
dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
appears in Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.

Translations:
'This noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering is
to be developed' (BB in "Connected Discourses...")
'This noble actuality of the way leading to the cessation of
suffering must be developed' (m in "Path of Discrimation")
'This noble truth must be penetrated to by maintaining in being the
way leading to the cessation of suffering'(m in "Life of the Buddha")

Comment:
To me, m's "Life" translation gives a stronger sense of the 8fnp as
a set of rules to get really good at following so that they
are "maintained in being" than do the other two translations. Then
again, I don't rightly know what "maintain in being" means -- at
first I thought it must be a somewhat stilted, literal translation of
some complicated Pali word. Now, it just seems more like an
invention.

Questions:
Why such an invention? In order to portray the sense of meaning I got
from the translation? Does anyone else get the same sense when
reading that translation? How else can that translation be understood
in English? >>

Jim:
I think of ~Naa.namoli's translation of "bhaavetabba.m" as being an
interpretation according to his understanding at the time he wrote it. Your
next two questions are too hard for me to answer since you've indicated in
your comments that you don't rightly know what "maintaining in being" means.
I myself have a hard time understanding "by maintaining in being" but it
would be more intelligible if it were replaced by "by developing" as in:
'This noble truth must be penetrated to by developing the way leading to the
cessation of suffering'. But "bhaavetabba.m" could be studied further for
other possible and perhaps better translations instead of the ones with
"developed". As to your last question, I don't know. You ask tough
questions.

Jim



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527
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 10:50am
Subject: Re: bhaavetabbanti [parsing]

 
    Thanks, Jim. It seems to me like an important sentence, so I want to 
get a better grasp on it. Can you help me parse it? 

Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m 
dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me" 
[Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

1. What's panida.m?

2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" must be something like "way to 
eradicate suffering." In your translation it looks like an 
accusative, object of "by developing", which must be some kind of 
ablative gerund ("bhaavetabbanti"). [I haven't learned my declensions 
too well yet. I'm going by my nearly 20 year old recollection of 
Greek grammar, so please be patient with me. Warder doesn't cover 
very much in the first 5 lessons!] 
What's the stem of bhaavetabbanti? 

3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary (on-
line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural. 

4. "ariyasacca.m" must be accusative, object of bhaavetabbbanti.

Please don't feel obliged to spend too much time on my stupid 
questions. I don't want you to feel like I'm abusing your generosity 
in helping me with my rash of questions.

Dan
 
 
528
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: study books

 
    Dear Dan, nice to see you here. Personally I like Warder, because you come
to reading texts very soon, applying the grammar. Wihout grammar we shall
twist meanings. There is a grammatical index, and I do not mind to go
through the book to find what I am looking for, it is a way of reviewing. I
agree it may not be so systematical. Greek will help with the verbs and also
the abl absolute will not be a problem for you. Although I am not the
teacher here, if I can help with Warder, it is an opportunity for me to
review. But I am sure you manage.Watch out for sandhi's but you get used to
it. Jim, when he has access again to his library, can give you all the fine
points. For reading the Buddhadatta dict is so handy to get on with your
reading, looking up words quickly, and when you need more info the PTS dict
is good. When reading I jot down the words that I do not know or have
forgotten, as a way to memorize.
Success with your studies. By the way, you will have to do with subject/
object :-) With appreciation, Nina.
Hallo Robert, I looked up: sukkha means dry and sukha is happines, although
there is an example kaayika sukkha with two k's to my surprise.
Nina.
 
 
529
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: Re: study books

 
    Thanks for the suggestions, Nina. I'm not sure yet what to do about 
vocabulary. I just remember memorizing many, long lists of words in 
my Greek (and Chinese) days, and then finding that I'd forgotten most 
of them within a few days - frustrating! This is especially 
troublesome when the grammar is largely consolidated, real reading 
starts, and the vocabulary really starts to grow. I'm surely not at 
that point yet with Pali, but the day will come soon enough. 

I wonder how everyone else deals with vocabulary. I would like to 
find a way to avoid looking up the same word six or ten times before 
learning it. Maybe there is no other way...

Dan

--- In palistudy@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Dan, nice to see you here. Personally I like Warder, because 
you come
> to reading texts very soon, applying the grammar. Wihout grammar we 
shall
> twist meanings. There is a grammatical index, and I do not mind to 
go
> through the book to find what I am looking for, it is a way of 
reviewing. I
> agree it may not be so systematical. Greek will help with the verbs 
and also
> the abl absolute will not be a problem for you. Although I am not 
the
> teacher here, if I can help with Warder, it is an opportunity for 
me to
> review. But I am sure you manage.Watch out for sandhi's but you get 
used to
> it. Jim, when he has access again to his library, can give you all 
the fine
> points. For reading the Buddhadatta dict is so handy to get on with 
your
> reading, looking up words quickly, and when you need more info the 
PTS dict
> is good. When reading I jot down the words that I do not know or 
have
> forgotten, as a way to memorize.
> Success with your studies. By the way, you will have to do with 
subject/
> object :-) With appreciation, Nina.
> Hallo Robert, I looked up: sukkha means dry and sukha is happines, 
although
> there is an example kaayika sukkha with two k's to my surprise.
> Nina.
 
 
530
From: sarahdhhk <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:51am
Subject: Re: study books

 
    Hi Dan,

--- In palistudy@y..., "onco111" <dhd5@c...> wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestions, Nina. I'm not sure yet what to do 
about 
> vocabulary. I just remember memorizing many, long lists of 
words in 
> my Greek (and Chinese) days, and then finding that I'd 
forgotten most 
> of them within a few days - frustrating! 
......

Just checked in and good to see you with your keen interest in 
Pali. I'm a very poor Pali student (so I usually keep quiet here), 
but by `coincidence', just a week ago took my new paperback 
Warder to the pool to start one chapter a day (ha, ha..lasted for 3 
days;-))

Anyway with the first summer in a very, very long time with no 
teaching, no moving house and no serious health probs, I'm 
trying to at least spend half an hour a day on it....like you around 
ch 5 now. I've been encouraged greatly on dsg and here on psg 
on the need for some basics like you.

I also have several yrs of Latin background (no Greek) and 
remember how patiently my father (who had been a classics 
scholar) used to help me translate Caesar and Virgil while I'd 
complain about the uselessness of studying dead 
languages....hmm...

In the late 70s in London I started studying Warder with a small 
group, but never did much homework (I had a demanding job in 
a psychiatric centre at the time and I've always been good at 
finding excuses to avoid it) and got to the point as you mention, 
where I spent all my time checking the index for the vocabulary. I 
gave up and really only remember the very special group I 
studied with and kept in touch with for a long time.

I threw out the book and notes in one of my many moves. Now 
I'm encouraged by you all to do a little better in self-study 
mode....my problem is like yours - forgetfulness...but I'm not 
letting it be a concern...I just treat it as a game and I think, like 
Rob, one has to approach it in a way that's fun or seems 
relevant. With Cantonese, Jon's also been a perfectionist (no 
surprise), while I have a bit more of Rob's `cowboy' `use it or 
lose it' approach ...Going back to study foundations (i.e grammar 
in Warder) is a real test of my patience;-) I'm not writing any 
notes this time, but attempting to learn a few declensions (as we 
used to do in Latin days). I'll probably be glad when my students 
return to give me an excuse to break;-)

I also like using the hardcopy Rhys Davids & Stede dict. (a gift to 
us from PTS!) Given time, I could browse and follow up refs for 
hours.....we also have the Childers one somewhere..(probably in 
Jon's office). Like Nina, I'm seriously computer challenged and 
changing the toner is an achievement for me too. With a mac I 
don't have the Andy Shaw Pali conversion thingy, so appreciate if 
you and Rob post the slabs of Pali converted already along with 
translations here. Look f/w to any of yr translation Qs and Jim's 
As and any Warder tips of Nina's. Let's also encourage each 
other to keep up w/Warder.

Sarah
=====

p.s. "3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary 
(on-
line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural."

I believe pat.tipadaa is nom f sg 
(we haven't got to it in Warder but I also refer to another helpful 
small book with some helpful grammar tables at the back called 
"Pali Buddhist Texts' by Rune Johansson which we also used to 
use in the London classes (and amazingly didn't get thrown out).
 
 
531
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 6:20am
Subject: Re: study books

 
    > I also have several yrs of Latin background (no Greek) and 
> remember how patiently my father (who had been a classics 
> scholar) used to help me translate Caesar and Virgil while I'd 
> complain about the uselessness of studying dead 
> languages....hmm...

I rather enjoyed studying classics, despite the funny looks I'd get 
from people for wanting to study a dead language. Now, I just get 
funny looks from my wife, who gets irritated at any sort of Dhamma 
study that I do -- but then she loves it when I talk with her or the 
kids about stuff! But studying Pali? Heaven forbid!

> I threw out the book and notes in one of my many moves. Now 
> I'm encouraged by you all to do a little better in self-study 
> mode....my problem is like yours - forgetfulness...but I'm not 
> letting it be a concern...I just treat it as a game and I think, 
like 
> Rob, one has to approach it in a way that's fun or seems 
> relevant. 

At this point, I just read the same things over and over, trying to 
get the reading to feel natural, rather than a word by word thing. Of 
course, this requires knowing the vocabulary, but there is something 
more satisfying about being able to read some sentences well instead 
of just being able to recite a vocabulary list well. Also, it helps 
solidify the grammar better. Of course, this is all just guesswork 
because I don't have as much experience with this method.

> lose it' approach ...Going back to study foundations (i.e grammar 
> in Warder) is a real test of my patience;-) I'm not writing any 
> notes this time, but attempting to learn a few declensions (as we 
> used to do in Latin days). I'll probably be glad when my students 
> return to give me an excuse to break;-)

Warder dispenses with the tables of verb and noun endings. I do miss 
them. I did find some on a nifty Taiwan website 
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/olcourse.htm. You'd probably be 
able to benefit from the extensive resources in Chinese there as well!

> I also like using the hardcopy Rhys Davids & Stede dict. (a gift to 
> us from PTS!) Given time, I could browse and follow up refs for 
> hours.....we also have the Childers one somewhere..

I'm going to order the Rhys Davids/Stede... 

> don't have the Andy Shaw Pali conversion thingy, so appreciate if 
> you and Rob post the slabs of Pali converted already along with 
> translations here. 

The Andy Shaw thingy is pretty nice...

> p.s. "3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS 
dictionary 
> (on-
> line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural."
> 
> I believe pat.tipadaa is nom f sg 
> (we haven't got to it in Warder but I also refer to another helpful 
> small book with some helpful grammar tables at the back called 
> "Pali Buddhist Texts' by Rune Johansson which we also used to 
> use in the London classes (and amazingly didn't get thrown out).

O.K. I'd buy that. 

It's nice to know you are out there doing the same thing I'm doing 
(but at a more advanced, 'review' level).

Dan
 
 
532
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 0:51pm
Subject: Re: bhaavetabbanti [parsing]

 
    Hi Dan,

D: Thanks, Jim. It seems to me like an important sentence, so I want to
get a better grasp on it. Can you help me parse it?

J: I will certainly try to help.

D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
[Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

J: The Dhammacakkappavattanasutta is also included in Pa.tis XVII
(Dhammacakkakathaa) but not in full. Ps is the abbreviation used for the
Papa~ncasuudanii (MN commentary). There are different schemes for showing
the titles of texts in abbreviations. I think the most authoritative is the
one adopted by the Critical Pali Dictionary.

D: 1. What's panida.m?

J: pana ida.m. 'pana' is a particle while 'ida.m' is the nom. sing. neuter
form of the pronoun 'ima' (stem form). The final 'a' of 'pana' has been
elided before a following vowel. The combination could also be written as:
pan' ida.m. The 'ida.m' (this) goes with 'ariyasacca.m' (noble truth).

D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" must be something like "way to
eradicate suffering." In your translation it looks like an
accusative, object of "by developing", which must be some kind of
ablative gerund ("bhaavetabbanti"). [I haven't learned my declensions
too well yet. I'm going by my nearly 20 year old recollection of
Greek grammar, so please be patient with me. Warder doesn't cover
very much in the first 5 lessons!]
What's the stem of bhaavetabbanti?

J: The translation that I made using "by developing" was not one I agreed
with. I was only rewording ~Nm's in order to make it more intelligible. I
think his "maintaining" might have something to do with "anurakkhanaa"
as found in the last of the 4 right efforts (sammappadhaana-s). "pa.tipadaa"
(the way) would be the accusative object of "developing" just like
"maintaining" but "pa.tipadaa" happens to be in the nom. sing. fem.
"dukkhanirodhagaaminii" translates into "leading to (gaaminii) the cessation
(nirodha) of suffering (dukkha).

"bhaavetabbanti" is made up of two words: bhaavetabba.m + iti and according
to the rules of sandhi (euphonic combination), .m + iti becomes nti. The
'ti' marks the end of the quote: "ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa
ariyasacca.m bhaavetabba.m". It is also possible that the quote could begin
at the very beginning: "ta.m kho panida.m... bhaavetabba.m". "ta.m" is a
word that I'm not sure about (is it a pronoun or a particle?). The stem form
of "bhaavetabba.m" is "bhaavetabba" which you will likely find under the
entry word "bhavati" in PED. The nom. sing. neut. inflectional termination
/a.m/ is in agreement with "ariyasacca.m" (the subject). I believe Warder
calls words ending in -tabba "future passive participles" but I think such
words would be better called "potential passive participles". Most Pali (and
Sanskrit) words can be resolved into their elementary components (morphemes)
and there are grammatical rules describing the formation of words.
"bhaavetabba" is a causative form which is made up of the verbal root /bhuu/
(be, become), the causative affix /e/ and the kicca affix /tabba/. "bhuu" is
changed to "bhaav" before /e/. In a traditional native grammar such as the
Saddaniiti one can find further details on the various uses and meanings of
/tabba/. In the Pa.tis commentary "bhaavetabba" is glossed as
"va.d.dhetabba" which helps a lot.

D: 3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary (on-
line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural.

J: The online PED isn't showing the proper diacritics if all you saw was
"pa.tipada". The hardcopy would show "pa.tipadaa" (fem.).

D: 4. "ariyasacca.m" must be accusative, object of bhaavetabbbanti.

J: It wouldn't have the accusative case ending (although the nom. and acc.
endings happen to look the same). Here, the object or patient is expressed
in the nominative case just as the agent would be expresed in the
instrumental case. I don't know if I'm correct but I think of terms like
accusative, genitive, dative. etc. as referring to the case endings whereas
terms like agent, object/patient, instrument, etc. refer to kaarakas
(helpers) which help the verb to carry out its activity and could be
expresed in cases other than the normal ones.

D: Please don't feel obliged to spend too much time on my stupid
questions. I don't want you to feel like I'm abusing your generosity
in helping me with my rash of questions.

J: I didn't find your questions at all stupid and I hope you found my
answers to them of some help. I'm glad to help in whatever way I can
although it may take me some time to get back to you as I might have to work
on my understanding of Pali. I had put aside (not forgotten) your other
questions about bhavata.nhaa so I could work on your questions above. So
please be patient. Nina's still waiting (months later!) for my responses to
some of her translations.

Best wishes,
Jim



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533
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Jim and Dan, 
bhavata.nhaa can be accompanied by di.t.thi or unaccompanied by it, whereas
vibhavata.nhaa is also accompanied by di.t.thi, this is annihilation view.
When bhavata.nhaa is accompanied by di.t.thi it is eternalism. When
unaccompanied by di.t.thi, it is clinging to the result of jhana, rebirth in
rupabrahma planes and arupa brahmaplanes. This kind of clinging is not even
eradicated by the anagami who has eradicated sensuous clinging, but only by
the arahat who has no more wish for any kind of rebirth.

op 30-06-2002 20:34 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:

> 
> Jim: ...The 'bhava' in 'bhavata.nhaa' refers to the eternalistic view
> (sassatadi.t.thi). I had to check with the commentaries for this
> explanation which goes something like this: passion/desire (raaga)
> accompanied by the eternalistic view. Di.t.thi has to be read in
> between bhava and ta.nhaa.
> 
> --> Dan: If bhavata.nhaa is ditthi (which makes sense), the sotapanna
> are free from bhavata.nhaa (which also makes sense). However, this
> bhava (being) of bhavata.nhaa seems quite different from the bhava
> (becoming) of paticca-samuppada. Isn't every grasping at a sense
> object really a ta.nha for bhava (as "becoming" rather than "being")?
> This moment to moment renewal of being (i.e. becoming) arises in
> response to the craving for the process of renewal, for "becoming" --
> the monkey mind that grasps for object after object after object
> because each object turns out to be unsatisfactory.
> 
> Is it fair to say that bhavata.nhaa is eradicated at stream-entry but
> ta.nhaa for bhava is not eradicated until arahantship?
 
 
534
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: bhaavetabbanti [parsing]

 
    Hallo Jim and Dan, May I have a go, just as an exercise?

op 01-07-2002 16:50 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:
> 
D: 1. What's panida.m?
N: pana ida.m, watch those sandhis. Pana can be translated as and now, on
the contrary (adversative).
> 
D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" must be something like "way to
> eradicate suffering."
N: nirodha: cessation. gaaminii: from gacchati, and the ii is interesting:
what is habitually or usually the case.

D:In your translation it looks like an
> accusative, object of "by developing", which must be some kind of
> ablative gerund ("bhaavetabbanti"). [I haven't learned my declensions
> too well yet. I'm going by my nearly 20 year old recollection of
> Greek grammar, so please be patient with me. Warder doesn't cover
> very much in the first 5 lessons!]
> What's the stem of bhaavetabbanti?
N: bhaavati: to become, bhaaveti: causative, make become or develop. the
postfix abba denotes: should be or must be done.
> 3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary (on-
> line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural.
> N: yes long aa, it is fem.singular.
> 4. "ariyasacca.m" must be accusative, object of bhaavetabbbanti.
> N: No, sacca.m is neutre, nom., it should be developed.
> Now the whole translation, which Jim will do in a more refined way:
>
D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
> dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
> [Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

And further, this noble truth indeed, namely, this way leading to the
cessation of suffering should thus be developed by me.

ta.m may refer to ariyasacca.m, and panida.m (pana ida.m) may refer to
pa.tipadaa, is a description of what this truth is, but I am guessing only.
Kho is another nice small particle (like in Greek many of those, but I
forgot, 55 years ago), meaning, indeed, it is for stress. The ti at end of
bhaavetabban: the m becomes an n before ti (this happens all the time, you
get used to it). Sometimes ti is from iti: thus, or referring to something
that has been mentioned before. Or it is ti used as a quote. Here it may be
the first case, a guess. See what Jim will say.
pa.ti padaa is interesting, we discussed with Jim pa.ti, towards.
pa.tipadaa: a means to reach the goal.
I am bound to have made mistakes, enjoyed it though,
Nina. 
P.S. I am always slow because I go on line only once a day.
 
 
535
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 5:22am
Subject: Re: bhaavetabbanti [parsing]

 
    Hi Jim and Nina,
Wow. You guys are great. Let me digest your comments for another day 
before responding properly.

Thanks. Very helpful.

Dan
 
 
536
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: memorizing

 
    op 02-07-2002 02:21 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:

> Thanks for the suggestions, Nina. I'm not sure yet what to do about
> vocabulary. I just remember memorizing many, long lists of words in
> my Greek (and Chinese) days, and then finding that I'd forgotten most
> of them within a few days - frustrating! This is especially
> troublesome when the grammar is largely consolidated, real reading
> starts, and the vocabulary really starts to grow. I'm surely not at
> that point yet with Pali, but the day will come soon enough.
> 
> I wonder how everyone else deals with vocabulary. I would like to
> find a way to avoid looking up the same word six or ten times before
> learning it. Maybe there is no other way...

Dear Dan,
Patience. First I found Sutta reading not too difficult, then I started the
commentaries, had to look up words all the time, almost desperate, but after
some months you see it gets better. In the context it is easier to remember.
Then the subcommentary, even more difficult, but evenso it is a matter of
persevering. It is worth it. Makes all the difference, so much gets lost in
the english translation. Reading is much more pleasant when you have more
vocabulary. In the car when Lodewijk is driving I get my notebook and look
at words again, just like I used to do in olden days, have accumulated this.
Or when my father talks too lengthy in a restaurant I look surrepticiously
at my notes, believing he does not notice it, but I get scolded by Lodewijk.
My lack of ppatience. I also underline in my Buddhadatta dict words that I
have come across with, to see how stupid I am.
Sometimes you may not find a word when it starts with a: this is a negation,
take it off and you will find the word. They do not give it with the
negation very often.
I just saw Jim's comments, there are still puzzles, even in one sentence. I
study it again.

Dear Jim, 
I looked up in Warder Ch 17, tad and ta.m, a particle: that, then, so. It is
illative, but what is that? Thus, as you say, ida.m goes with sacca.m. ta.m
is just a particle at the beginning.
Translation could start: Then indeed this ariyan truth...
I am not sure the ii of gaminii is in this case: usually or habitually
leading to. 
At the end there is the <me> untranslated: by me? Strange that it comes
after the quote. 
Nina.
 
 
537
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:48am
Subject: Vin. Mv. 1:6 (...continued)

 
    Dear Jim and Nina,
Wonderful help! Thanks.

Comments interspersed (new comments indicated by --> Dan:

D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
> dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
> [Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

D: 1. What's panida.m?

J: pana ida.m. 'pana' is a particle while 'ida.m' is the nom. sing. 
neuter
form of the pronoun 'ima' (stem form). The final 'a' of 'pana' has 
been
elided before a following vowel. The combination could also be 
written as:
pan' ida.m. The 'ida.m' (this) goes with 'ariyasacca.m' (noble truth).

N: pana ida.m, watch those sandhis. Pana can be translated as and 
now, on
the contrary (adversative).

--> Dan: So, a word ending in short 'a' followed by a word beginning 
in 'i' is contracted by squeezing the words together and dropping the 
i? Do I have that rule right? 

The ambience of "and now" is quite different from that of "on the 
contrary," but it is interesting that both are glosses for "pana". It 
seems to give a special emphasis to what follows: "'And now', listen 
to this. Be careful, though. Although it may only appear to be subtly 
different from what I said before in the previous sentence, it is 
really quite different ('on the contrary')." Does that make sense? I 
really need to get this right...

D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii"...

J: The translation that I made using "by developing" was not one I 
agreed
with. I was only rewording ~Nm's in order to make it more 
intelligible. I
think his "maintaining" might have something to do with "anurakkhanaa"
as found in the last of the 4 right efforts (sammappadhaana-
s). "pa.tipadaa"
(the way) would be the accusative object of "developing" just like
"maintaining" but "pa.tipadaa" happens to be in the nom. sing. fem.
"dukkhanirodhagaaminii" translates into "leading to (gaaminii) the 
cessation
(nirodha) of suffering (dukkha).

--> Dan: Hmmmm... I can see that. I'm a little skeptical of mixing 
the teachings in translations, though, because the teaching often 
seems to take similar ideas and expresses them in different ways or 
emphasizes different aspects, apparently tailored to meet the needs 
of the listener at that time. For example, paticca samuppada, the 
five aggregates, and the elements and bases in a lot of ways seem to 
be just different formulations for the same general phenomena. I find 
that mixing the metaphors is dangerous. Better to understand each as 
it is? I think so. The words mean somewhat different things in the 
different contexts.

"bhaavetabbanti" is made up of two words: bhaavetabba.m + iti and 
according
to the rules of sandhi (euphonic combination), .m + iti becomes nti. 

--> Dan (interrupting): O.K. This is a difficulty I don't have much 
experience with. "-anti" sure looks like 1st conjugation, 3rd person 
pl. indicative, but in this case it isn't. For me to unravel 
something like this at this stage, I notice that there is a quote, 
look for a '-ti' or an '-iti' (possibly sandhi-ized) to mark the end. 

J:'ti' marks the end of the quote: "ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii 
pa.tipadaa
ariyasacca.m bhaavetabba.m". It is also possible that the quote could 
begin
at the very beginning: "ta.m kho panida.m... bhaavetabba.m". "ta.m" 
is a
word that I'm not sure about (is it a pronoun or a particle?). The 
stem form
of "bhaavetabba.m" is "bhaavetabba" which you will likely find under 
the
entry word "bhavati" in PED. The nom. sing. neut. inflectional 
termination
/a.m/ is in agreement with "ariyasacca.m" (the subject). I believe 
Warder
calls words ending in -tabba "future passive participles" but I think 
such
words would be better called "potential passive participles". Most 
Pali (and
Sanskrit) words can be resolved into their elementary components 
(morphemes)
and there are grammatical rules describing the formation of words.
"bhaavetabba" is a causative form which is made up of the verbal 
root /bhuu/
(be, become), the causative affix /e/ and the kicca 
affix /tabba/. "bhuu" is
changed to "bhaav" before /e/. In a traditional native grammar such 
as the
Saddaniiti one can find further details on the various uses and 
meanings of
/tabba/. In the Pa.tis commentary "bhaavetabba" is glossed as
"va.d.dhetabba" which helps a lot.

N: bhaavati: to become, bhaaveti: causative, make become or develop. 
the
postfix abba denotes: should be or must be done.

--> Dan: Very nice! But I can see that Pali is a challenging 
language... A lot of similar-looking endings with different meanings 
and a vowel fluidity that morphs words into strange looking beasts.

D: 3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary (on-
line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural.

J: The online PED isn't showing the proper diacritics if all you saw 
was
"pa.tipada". The hardcopy would show "pa.tipadaa" (fem.).

--> Dan: The hard copy is in the mail. Should be here shortly.

D: 4. "ariyasacca.m" must be accusative, object of bhaavetabbbanti.

J: It wouldn't have the accusative case ending (although the nom. and 
acc.
endings happen to look the same). Here, the object or patient is 
expressed
in the nominative case just as the agent would be expresed in the
instrumental case. 

--> Dan (interrupting again): O.K. I haven't learned instrumental yet 
(and there's not one here, right?), but with bhaavetabbba.m as 
passive voice I can see the nominative.

D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" must be something like "way to
> eradicate suffering."
N: nirodha: cessation. gaaminii: from gacchati, and the ii is 
interesting:
what is habitually or usually the case.

--> Dan: This might be where ~Nm got the "maintaining in being" idea. 
That makes more sense to me than the mixing of metaphors.

D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
> dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
> [Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

N: And further, this noble truth indeed, namely, this way leading to 
the
cessation of suffering should thus be developed by me.

ta.m may refer to ariyasacca.m, and panida.m (pana ida.m) may refer to
pa.tipadaa, is a description of what this truth is, but I am guessing 
only.
Kho is another nice small particle (like in Greek many of those, but I
forgot, 55 years ago), meaning, indeed, it is for stress. The ti at 
end of
bhaavetabban: the m becomes an n before ti (this happens all the 
time, you
get used to it). Sometimes ti is from iti: thus, or referring to 
something
that has been mentioned before. Or it is ti used as a quote. Here it 
may be
the first case, a guess. See what Jim will say.
pa.ti padaa is interesting, we discussed with Jim pa.ti, towards.
pa.tipadaa: a means to reach the goal.
I am bound to have made mistakes, enjoyed it though,

--> Dan: Great explanations, both of you. This help really makes 
language study fun (something I've never been especially fond of, 
despite learning several languages, mostly half-heartedly).


Dan
 
 
538
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:53am
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Wonderful, Nina! Thanks for clearing this up for me. It was a little 
worrisome to have to invariably read di.t.thi into bhavata.nhaa. Is 
your explanation given so simply and clearly somewhere in the canon? 

Dan

> Dear Jim and Dan, 
> bhavata.nhaa can be accompanied by di.t.thi or unaccompanied by it, 
whereas
> vibhavata.nhaa is also accompanied by di.t.thi, this is 
annihilation view.
> When bhavata.nhaa is accompanied by di.t.thi it is eternalism. When
> unaccompanied by di.t.thi, it is clinging to the result of jhana, 
rebirth in
> rupabrahma planes and arupa brahmaplanes. This kind of clinging is 
not even
> eradicated by the anagami who has eradicated sensuous clinging, but 
only by
> the arahat who has no more wish for any kind of rebirth.
> 
> op 30-06-2002 20:34 schreef onco111 op dhd5@c...:
> 
> > 
> > Jim: ...The 'bhava' in 'bhavata.nhaa' refers to the eternalistic 
view
> > (sassatadi.t.thi). I had to check with the commentaries for this
> > explanation which goes something like this: passion/desire (raaga)
> > accompanied by the eternalistic view. Di.t.thi has to be read in
> > between bhava and ta.nhaa.
> > 
> > --> Dan: If bhavata.nhaa is ditthi (which makes sense), the 
sotapanna
> > are free from bhavata.nhaa (which also makes sense). However, this
> > bhava (being) of bhavata.nhaa seems quite different from the bhava
> > (becoming) of paticca-samuppada. Isn't every grasping at a sense
> > object really a ta.nha for bhava (as "becoming" rather 
than "being")?
> > This moment to moment renewal of being (i.e. becoming) arises in
> > response to the craving for the process of renewal, 
for "becoming" --
> > the monkey mind that grasps for object after object after object
> > because each object turns out to be unsatisfactory.
> > 
> > Is it fair to say that bhavata.nhaa is eradicated at stream-entry 
but
> > ta.nhaa for bhava is not eradicated until arahantship?
 
 
539
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 10:27am
Subject: Re: Re: memorizing

 
    Dear Nina (and Dan),

> Dear Jim,
> I looked up in Warder Ch 17, tad and ta.m, a particle: that, then, so. It
is
> illative, but what is that? Thus, as you say, ida.m goes with sacca.m.
ta.m
> is just a particle at the beginning.

I don't know the meaning of 'illative'. I had been thinking that 'ta.m'
might be a particle and 'then' was what came to mind. I recalled
a 'ta.m kho pana' in the first paragraph of the Vinayapi.taka but according
to its commentary it is a pronoun that goes with 'bhavanta.m gotama.m'. I
have pasted the relevant passages at the bottom for your information (no
need to give a translation). I couldn't find any commentary on 'ta.m kho
panida.m' so I thought these passage might help.

> Translation could start: Then indeed this ariyan truth...
> I am not sure the ii of gaminii is in this case: usually or habitually
> leading to.

I see 'dukkhanirodhagaaminii' as an adj. ending in a nom. sing. fem. affix
and it goes with 'pa.tipadaa'. All the words in 'ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii
pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabba.m' are in the nom. sing.. So I think the
relation of 'dukkha... pa.tipadaa' to 'ida.m ariyasacca.m' is one of
apposition like 'so and so, the minister'. Hence, 'this ariyan truth, [which
is] the way leading to the cessation of suffering, is to be developed'.
gaaminii is the fem. version of gaamii (stem: gaamin). I'm doubtful that
'usually or habitually' (tassiila) is the right interpretation although it's
the right one for 'jhaayii' (habitual meditator). I have found the following
sutta in the Saddaniiti that might be applicable:

1294. aniyatakaale [at an indefinite time??] gamaadito .nii.
catumaggasa.mkhaata.m sambodha.m gacchatii ti sambodhagaamii - dhammo, . . .

However, more checking is needed.

> At the end there is the <me> untranslated: by me? Strange that it comes
> after the quote.
> Nina.

The passage given is only part of the whole sentence as follows:

"ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m
bhaavetabbanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m
udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi,
aaloko udapaadi."

Yes, I've been wondering why "me" comes right after bhavetabbanti. I had
thought that "me" could be in the instrumental case (= by me) going with
"ananussutesu" (not heard) but in the Tathaagatasutta (SN 56.12)
"tathaagataana.m" (gen. or dat. pl.) is used in the place of "me" in a
similar passage. ~Naa.namoli has "that arose in me" (like a locative). The
sentence is turning out to be a difficult one for me to figure out. The use
of 'ta.m' is uncertain and if it is a pronoun what does it refer to? (See
the passages below) It's hard to work out how all the parts fit together
syntactically.

Best wishes,
Jim

=================
Ta.m kho pana bhavanta.m gotama.m eva.m kalyaa.no kittisaddo abbhuggato-
'itipi so bhagavaaaraha.m sammaasambuddho vijjaacara.nasampanno sugato . . .
Vin
III 1

Ta.m kho panaati itthambhuutaakhyaanatthe upayogavacana.m, tassa kho pana
bhoto gotamassaati attho. Sp 1.111

Ittha.m ima.m pakaara.m bhuuto pattoti itthambhuuto, tassa aakhyaana.m
itthambhuutaakhyaana.m, soyevattho itthambhuutaakhyaanattho. Atha vaa
ittha.m eva.mpakaaro bhuuto jaatoti itthambhuuto, taadisoti aakhyaana.m
itthambhuutaakhyaana.m, tadevattho itthambhuutaakhyaanattho, tasmi.m
upayogavacananti attho. Abbhuggatoti ettha hi abhisaddo padhaanavasena
itthambhuutaakhyaanatthajotako kammappavacaniiyo abhibhavitvaa
uggamanakiriyaapakaarassa diipanato, tena payogato "ta.m kho pana
bhagavantan"ti ida.m upayogavacana.m saami-atthe samaanampi appadhaanavasena
itthambhuutaakhyaanatthadiipanato "itthambhuutaakhyaanatthe"ti vutta.m.
Tenevaaha "tassa kho pana bhagavatoti attho"ti.
Siilakkhandhavaggo-abhinava.tiikaa 2.18


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
540
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: sandhis.

 
    op 04-07-2002 13:48 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:
Dear Jim, 
thank you very much for all the info I am studying. Do you manage this with
your lap top? I thought you were not home yet.

Dear Dan, just one or two points,

> --> Dan: So, a word ending in short 'a' followed by a word beginning
> in 'i' is contracted by squeezing the words together and dropping the
> i? Do I have that rule right?
>N: I would not put it so generally, it depends on the words that happen to be
next to each other, I think, those that belong together. Better check with
Jim. 
>
D: The ambience of "and now" is quite different from that of "on the
> contrary," but it is interesting that both are glosses for "pana". It
> seems to give a special emphasis to what follows: "'And now', listen
> to this. Be careful, though. Although it may only appear to be subtly
> different from what I said before in the previous sentence, it is
> really quite different ('on the contrary')." Does that make sense? I
> really need to get this right...
N: I think we have here only the one sentence in isolation and should
translate the whole context, then we shall see it better.<And now> may be
better, because first the Buddha spoke about the cessation, and now we have
the way to be developed. I myself would like the whole text if possible but
we better wait. How far are you in Warder? I did all the exercises, but not
English-Pali. 
Nina.
 
 
541
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Dan, 
the question is more complex, different classifications. In the Vis. XVII,
233, under craving, it is as Jim said, when with eternity view one assumes
an object to be lasting, there is craving for becoming. But when we look
under cankers, asavas, we have: kaamaasava, bhavaasava, di.t.thaasava and
avijjaasava. In the Vis. XXII, about abandoning, 70, it is as I suggested.
In the Abhidhammata Sangaha, now on line as the Guide, in my translation of
Ven. Narada, there is a note about tanhaa: (Ch on Paticcasamuppaada) this
has the two classifications, first one , bhavatanhaa with eternity view, and
second: bhavatanhaa and vibhavatanhaa are also interpreteted as attachment
to ruupa and aruupa planes. I think it depends under what aspect and what
heading realities are classified.
I would think that craving for birth that is not birth in sensuous planes
can be classified as bhavatanha and I think that this in the case of ariyans
is not involved with wrong view. But they can still long for the results of
jhana, until they have become an arahat.

op 04-07-2002 13:53 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:

> Wonderful, Nina! Thanks for clearing this up for me. It was a little
> worrisome to have to invariably read di.t.thi into bhavata.nhaa. Is
> your explanation given so simply and clearly somewhere in the canon?
> 
> Dan
> 
>> 
>>> Jim: ...The 'bhava' in 'bhavata.nhaa' refers to the eternalistic
> view
>>> (sassatadi.t.thi). I had to check with the commentaries for this
>>> explanation which goes something like this: passion/desire (raaga)
>>> accompanied by the eternalistic view. Di.t.thi has to be read in
>>> between bhava and ta.nhaa.
 
 
542
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 4:43pm
Subject: Re: sandhis.

 
    D: The ambience of "and now" is quite different from that of "on the
contrary," but it is interesting that both are glosses for "pana". It
seems to give a special emphasis to what follows: "'And now', listen
to this. Be careful, though. Although it may only appear to be subtly
different from what I said before in the previous sentence, it is
really quite different ('on the contrary')." Does that make sense? I
really need to get this right...

N: I think we have here only the one sentence in isolation and should
translate the whole context, then we shall see it better.<And now> 
may be better, because first the Buddha spoke about the cessation, 
and now we have the way to be developed. I myself would like the 
whole text if possible but we better wait. 

--> Dan: Yes, of course. As you suggest, though, I'm not ready to 
work through the whole thing yet. In any case, here's a little more 
of the context:

1] Ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccanti me,
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m
udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. [2]
ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m
bhaavetabbanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m
udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi,
aaloko udapaadi. [3] ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii
pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavitanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe
ananussutesudhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

Not only is there this noble truth of the way leading to the 
cessation of suffering, but also that noble truth must be fully 
understood. The knowing and believing that it is there is one thing, 
but fully understanding it is quite another ('pana' to help contrast 
[2] with the similar sounding [1]). This is all that I meant. 

N: How far are you in Warder? I did all the exercises, but not
English-Pali. 

--> Dan: I'm just starting lesson 7 (slow going the past few days 
with the holiday this week). At this point, I'm reading through 
everything and only half-way memorizing the grammar. The vocabulary 
I'm not explicitly memorizing, but I am reading through all the 
exercises, several times, doing both the Pali->English and the 
English->Pali, and then doing the same exercises in the reverse 
direction (i.e. reading the 'answers' in the back and trying to 
reconstruct the original exercise). When I get through a little more 
(maybe lesson 15 or so), I'll go back and memorize more endings, 
usages, contractions, etc. Compounds start on lesson 16, and I would 
like to have the basic endings down well before jumping into 
compounds.

Funny how translations can get really mixed up by a beginner when 
there is no context for the sentence. For example, in lesson 3 Warder 
translates "upaasaka.m braahman dhaareti" as "he accepts the priest 
as a lay disciple." I had "He remembers the brahmin lay disciple." 
Another one: "attha.m dhaareti," which Warder has as "He remembers 
the meaning," while I thought about "He has wealth." 

I do have a couple of questions that you might be able to help me 
with. In lesson 5, Warder talks about how a double negative is 
equivalent to a strong affirmation. [Interesting... In English, it's 
usually a weak affirmation, and in Greek it would be a strong 
negation!] In lesson 6, he then gives the sentence, "n' eso h' atthii 
ti vadaami," which he translates as "I don't say, 'This doesn't 
exist.'" I'd think a strong affirmation would sound something like 
this: "I say, 'This surely exists.'" How can we tell that the 
first 'na' negates the 'vadaami' instead of doubling the second 'na'?

Also, in lesson 6 he introduces the "Imperative Tense." I've always 
learned that 'imperative' was a 'mood' (along with indicative, 
subjunctive, optative) , but tenses were more time oriented (like 
present, imperfect, future, past, pluperfect, etc.) I can see a 
temporal sense in the imperative (somewhat future-ish), but it still 
seems peculiar... Surely, the subjunctive can't be called a tense 
too, can it?

Dan
 
 
543
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 4:50pm
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    N: the question is more complex, different classifications. In the 
Vis. XVII, 233, under craving, it is as Jim said, when with eternity 
view one assumes an object to be lasting, there is craving for 
becoming. But when we look under cankers, asavas, we have: 
kaamaasava, bhavaasava, di.t.thaasava and avijjaasava. In the Vis. 
XXII, about abandoning, 70, it is as I suggested. In the Abhidhammata 
Sangaha, now on line as the Guide, in my translation of Ven. Narada, 
there is a note about tanhaa: (Ch on Paticcasamuppaada) this has the 
two classifications, first one , bhavatanhaa with eternity view, and
second: bhavatanhaa and vibhavatanhaa are also interpreteted as 
attachment to ruupa and aruupa planes. I think it depends under what 
aspect and what heading realities are classified. I would think that 
craving for birth that is not birth in sensuous planes can be 
classified as bhavatanha and I think that this in the case of ariyans
is not involved with wrong view. But they can still long for the 
results of jhana, until they have become an arahat.

--> Dan: Thanks, Nina. This is exactly what I was looking for.
 
 
544
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Vin. Mv. 1:6 (...continued)

 
    Dear Dan,

> Dear Jim and Nina,
> Wonderful help! Thanks.
>
> Comments interspersed (new comments indicated by --> Dan:
>
> D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
> > dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
> > [Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]
>
> D: 1. What's panida.m?
>
> J: pana ida.m. 'pana' is a particle while 'ida.m' is the nom. sing.
> neuter
> form of the pronoun 'ima' (stem form). The final 'a' of 'pana' has
> been
> elided before a following vowel. The combination could also be
> written as:
> pan' ida.m. The 'ida.m' (this) goes with 'ariyasacca.m' (noble truth).
>
> N: pana ida.m, watch those sandhis. Pana can be translated as and
> now, on
> the contrary (adversative).
>
> --> Dan: So, a word ending in short 'a' followed by a word beginning
> in 'i' is contracted by squeezing the words together and dropping the
> i? Do I have that rule right?

Jim: The 'a' is dropped not the 'i'. The rule is a general one and can apply
to combinations of many of the vowels but there are exceptions for which
special rules apply eg. na + ime > nayime; a + a > aa, cakkhu + indriya >
cakkhundriya, etc. The general rule is stated as: vowels before a vowel are
elided (30. saraa lopa.m papponti sare. Saddaniiti, p.611). My translation
of the rule is probably inaccurate. I don't have my PTSD with me and so
couldn't look up "papponti" which might be found under "paapu.naati".

A note on the Saddaniiti: This work is mentioned in Warder's bibliography at
the back of his Introduction to Pali. The first two volumes are available on
the CSCD but the third volume (Suttamaala) is the one where all the rules
dealing with sandhi, word formation, syntax, etc. are found. In the early
80s I procured with some difficulty a copy of H. Smith's romanized edition
in six volumes and to me it is the most comprehensive and authoritatve Pali
grammar available (recently reprinted by the PTS). The beginner might find
the work quite incomprehensible without some understanding of the
traditional Indian system of language description. To understand the system
I studied Panini's A.s.taadhyaayii (for Sanskrit) which is available in an
English translation with copious notes (S.C. Vasu's ed.). I have found
comparing Pali with Sanskrit to be quite helpful in clarifying the many
ambiguities of Pali.

> The ambience of "and now" is quite different from that of "on the
> contrary," but it is interesting that both are glosses for "pana". It
> seems to give a special emphasis to what follows: "'And now', listen
> to this. Be careful, though. Although it may only appear to be subtly
> different from what I said before in the previous sentence, it is
> really quite different ('on the contrary')." Does that make sense? I
> really need to get this right...

Jim: Yes, there is quite a big difference. The two meanings among others are
found in Buddhadatta's dictionary as follows:

" pana (Adversative and interogative particle) ind. and; yet; but; on the
contrary; and now; more over." (internet version)

I'm still not clear on the meaning of "ta.m kho pana". One possibility
might be "then indeed moreover". I notice that ~Naa.namoli and BB have left
the phrase untranslated. To learn more about "pana" one might have to go
beyond the Pali-English dictionaries and look for definitions with examples
in commentaries and grammatical treatises to get a better idea. From the
meanings given by Buddhadatta above one has to decide which ones to rule
out. I think 'yet', 'but; on the contrary' don't fit the context. You should
find more details in the PTSD.

> D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii"...
>
> J: The translation that I made using "by developing" was not one I
> agreed
> with. I was only rewording ~Nm's in order to make it more
> intelligible. I
> think his "maintaining" might have something to do with "anurakkhanaa"
> as found in the last of the 4 right efforts (sammappadhaana-
> s). "pa.tipadaa"
> (the way) would be the accusative object of "developing" just like
> "maintaining" but "pa.tipadaa" happens to be in the nom. sing. fem.
> "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" translates into "leading to (gaaminii) the
> cessation
> (nirodha) of suffering (dukkha).
>
> --> Dan: Hmmmm... I can see that. I'm a little skeptical of mixing
> the teachings in translations, though, because the teaching often
> seems to take similar ideas and expresses them in different ways or
> emphasizes different aspects, apparently tailored to meet the needs
> of the listener at that time. For example, paticca samuppada, the
> five aggregates, and the elements and bases in a lot of ways seem to
> be just different formulations for the same general phenomena. I find
> that mixing the metaphors is dangerous. Better to understand each as
> it is? I think so. The words mean somewhat different things in the
> different contexts.

I'm puzzled by what you say here as I don't see where there has been a
mixing of the teachings or metaphors in the translation under discussion. My
disagreement is over ~Naa.namoli's translation of "bhaavetabba.m" because he
is reading into it meanings that aren't really there. Although the
penetration of the truths is found in the teachings it is best considered in
texts that contain such words as pa.tivedha, pa.tivijjhati, etc. along with
sacca. It's much better to study the teachings in Pali as so much can get
lost or distorted in the translation.

> "bhaavetabbanti" is made up of two words: bhaavetabba.m + iti and
> according
> to the rules of sandhi (euphonic combination), .m + iti becomes nti.
>
> --> Dan (interrupting): O.K. This is a difficulty I don't have much
> experience with. "-anti" sure looks like 1st conjugation, 3rd person
> pl. indicative, but in this case it isn't. For me to unravel
> something like this at this stage, I notice that there is a quote,
> look for a '-ti' or an '-iti' (possibly sandhi-ized) to mark the end.

Endings and even words that look the same are fairly common in Pali. The
'ti' and 'iti' are the same word but in modern dictionaries and glossaries
they will probably be listed as separate words. The 'ti' has elision of the
first 'i'. Both are used to show the end of an expression but 'iti' (thus)
has other uses besides as in: itipi so bhagavaa... One will also have to
understand how a quote fits in syntactically with the rest of the sentence
and know where the quote actually begins which is not always obvious.
Sometimes iti before a vowel becomes: icc. There are several special sandhi
rules that deal with 'iti'.

> N: bhaavati: to become, bhaaveti: causative, make become or develop.
> the
> postfix abba denotes: should be or must be done.

Jim: That should be 'tabba' not 'abba'.

> --> Dan: Very nice! But I can see that Pali is a challenging
> language... A lot of similar-looking endings with different meanings
> and a vowel fluidity that morphs words into strange looking beasts.
>
> D: 3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary (on-
> line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural.
>
> J: The online PED isn't showing the proper diacritics if all you saw
> was
> "pa.tipada". The hardcopy would show "pa.tipadaa" (fem.).
>
> --> Dan: The hard copy is in the mail. Should be here shortly.

I think you'll find it useful. My copy shows the obvious signs of being much
in use and is still usable after 25 years. It may take awhile to get used to
the different order of letters.

> D: 4. "ariyasacca.m" must be accusative, object of bhaavetabbbanti.
>
> J: It wouldn't have the accusative case ending (although the nom. and
> acc.
> endings happen to look the same). Here, the object or patient is
> expressed
> in the nominative case just as the agent would be expresed in the
> instrumental case.
>
> --> Dan (interrupting again): O.K. I haven't learned instrumental yet
> (and there's not one here, right?), but with bhaavetabbba.m as
> passive voice I can see the nominative.

Jim: There is no instrumental word in the quote itself but I think one can
be understood: is to be developed (by me). It is possible for the 'me' that
follows the '-ti' to be interpreted as an instrumental going with
'ananussutesu dhammesu' -- among dhammas not heard (before) by me. But as I
pointed in my note to Nina it might be in the gen. or dat. sing. One of the
nice things about the passive voice is the shift of emphasis away from the
agent and on to the object. It wouldn't sound as nice if it were: I
should/must develop this noble truth... Past passive participles are also
very numerous in Pali.

Jim

P.S. I think some of your questions about the Vism. passage on dsg (eg. on
taru.navipassanaa) are answered in the Mahaa.tiikaa.



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545
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:03pm
Subject: Re: Vin. Mv. 1:6 (...continued)

 
    80s I procured with some difficulty a copy of H. Smith's romanized 
edition
in six volumes and to me it is the most comprehensive and 
authoritatve Pali
grammar available (recently reprinted by the PTS). The beginner might 
find
the work quite incomprehensible without some understanding of the
traditional Indian system of language description. To understand the 
system
I studied Panini's A.s.taadhyaayii (for Sanskrit) which is available 
in an
English translation with copious notes (S.C. Vasu's ed.). I have found
comparing Pali with Sanskrit to be quite helpful in clarifying the 
many
ambiguities of Pali.

--> Dan: At this point, Warder is plenty incomprehensible for me! I 
do very much appreciate your expertise and am impressed by how 
helpful your comments have been to me so far. I also notice how much 
the others here and at dsg appreciate and respect your work. Thanks! 

<snip>

> D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii"...
>
> J: The translation that I made using "by developing" was not one I
> agreed
> with. I was only rewording ~Nm's in order to make it more
> intelligible. I
> think his "maintaining" might have something to do 
with "anurakkhanaa"
> as found in the last of the 4 right efforts (sammappadhaana-
> s). "pa.tipadaa"
> (the way) would be the accusative object of "developing" just like
> "maintaining" but "pa.tipadaa" happens to be in the nom. sing. fem.
> "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" translates into "leading to (gaaminii) the
> cessation
> (nirodha) of suffering (dukkha).
>
> D: Hmmmm... I can see that. I'm a little skeptical of mixing
> the teachings in translations, though, because the teaching often
> seems to take similar ideas and expresses them in different ways or
> emphasizes different aspects, apparently tailored to meet the needs
> of the listener at that time. For example, paticca samuppada, the
> five aggregates, and the elements and bases in a lot of ways seem to
> be just different formulations for the same general phenomena. I 
find
> that mixing the metaphors is dangerous. Better to understand each as
> it is? I think so. The words mean somewhat different things in the
> different contexts.

J: I'm puzzled by what you say here as I don't see where there has 
been a
mixing of the teachings or metaphors in the translation under 
discussion. My
disagreement is over ~Naa.namoli's translation of "bhaavetabba.m" 
because he
is reading into it meanings that aren't really there. Although the
penetration of the truths is found in the teachings it is best 
considered in
texts that contain such words as pa.tivedha, pa.tivijjhati, etc. 
along with
sacca. It's much better to study the teachings in Pali as so much can 
get
lost or distorted in the translation.

--> Dan: I was just echoing your comments as I understand them, viz. 
~Nm seems to be reading into the passage meanings that aren't there 
(but may well be there in other parts of the teaching). I too think 
this sort of thing is common in translations, which is one of the 
main reasons I want to study Pali. (The other main reason is to read 
things that haven't been translated, e.g. Yamaka, much of the Sutta 
commentaries.)

<snip -- study and store your comments>

Dan
 
 
546
From: Robert <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:25am
Subject: RE: sandhis.

 
    Dear Dan and Nina,
Here is somthing on Sandhis

http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt02.htm
A Practical Grammar of the Pli Language
Chapter 2

Sandhi (Euphony)

14. Sandhi (union) is that part of the grammar which treats of the euphonic
changes that occur when one word is joined to another.

15. Generally these changes occur
(a) When a word ending in a vowel is joined to a word beginning with a
vowel.
(b) When a word ending in a vowel, is joined to another word beginning with
a consonant.
(c) When a word ending in niggahta () is followed by a word beginning
either with a vowel or with a consonant.

16. From the above it will be seen that sandhi is of three kinds:
(I) Vowel-sandhi, (II) Mixed sandhi and (III) Niggahta-sandhi.

Remarks. It is not absolutely necessary that the student should master
thoroughly the rules of sandhi before beginning the study of the other
chapters; but he should read them once carefully, and always refer to them
whenever in the course of his reading he finds forms and combinations that
puzzle him.

I. Vowel-Sandhi

17. A vowel before another vowel is elided.

Examples

Elision of a, yassa + indriyni = yassindriyni.
ajja + uposatho = ajjuposatho.
Elision of , m + vuso evarpa aksi = mvuso, etc.
tad + uhahi = taduhahi.
Elision of i, udadhi + miyo = udadhmiyo.
aggi + hito = agghito.
Elision of , bhikkhun + ovdo = bhikkhunovdo.
mig + iva = migiva.
Elision of u, dhtu + yatanni = dhtyatanni.
dhtu + indriyni = dhtindriyni.
Elision of , jamb + dni = jambdni.
jamb + rita vtena = jambrita vtena.
Elision of e, laddho me + okso = laddho m'okso.
gth me + udrit = gth m'udrit.
Elision of o, eso + vuso yasm = es'vuso yasm.

Remarks. When  is followed by a vowel it is very seldom elided: in the
expression tuhassa, however, we have an example of its elision; tuhassa =
tuh + assa; tuh ahesu, remains without change.

18. A vowel coming after another vowel may, if it is dissimilar, be elided.

Examples

(i) cakkhu + indriya = cakkhundriya.
(ii) yassa + idni = yass'idni.

19. The first vowel having been elided the following vowel may be
lengthened.

Examples

(i) tatra + aya = tatrya.
(ii) sa + atthika = stthika.
(iii) kiki + iva = kikva.
(iv) kamma + upanissayo = kammpanissayo.
(Note: A short vowel, a, i, u, is lengthened by putting a "-"(Dash) over
it).

20. Sometimes the second vowel having been elided, the preceding vowel is
lengthened.

Examples

(i) vi + atimnenti = vtimnenti.
(ii) kisu + idha vitta = kisdha vitta.

21. Generally:
(i) a or  + i or  = e.
(ii) a or  + u or  = o.

Examples

I. a or  + i or 


-----Original Message-----
From: onco111 [mailto:dhd5@cornell.edu]
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 5:43 AM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [palistudy]sandhis.


D: The ambience of "and now" is quite different from that of "on the
contrary," but it is interesting that both are glosses for "pana". It
seems to give a special emphasis to what follows: "'And now', listen
to this. Be careful, though. Although it may only appear to be subtly
different from what I said before in the previous sentence, it is
really quite different ('on the contrary')." Does that make sense? I
really need to get this right...

N: I think we have here only the one sentence in isolation and should
translate the whole context, then we shall see it better.<And now>
may be better, because first the Buddha spoke about the cessation,
and now we have the way to be developed. I myself would like the
whole text if possible but we better wait.

--> Dan: Yes, of course. As you suggest, though, I'm not ready to
work through the whole thing yet. In any case, here's a little more
of the context:

1] Ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccanti me,
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m
udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi. [2]
ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m
bhaavetabbanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m
udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi,
aaloko udapaadi. [3] ta.m kho panida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii
pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavitanti me, bhikkhave, pubbe
ananussutesudhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi, ~naa.na.m udapaadi, pa~n~naa
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

Not only is there this noble truth of the way leading to the
cessation of suffering, but also that noble truth must be fully
understood. The knowing and believing that it is there is one thing,
but fully understanding it is quite another ('pana' to help contrast
[2] with the similar sounding [1]). This is all that I meant.

N: How far are you in Warder? I did all the exercises, but not
English-Pali.

--> Dan: I'm just starting lesson 7 (slow going the past few days
with the holiday this week). At this point, I'm reading through
everything and only half-way memorizing the grammar. The vocabulary
I'm not explicitly memorizing, but I am reading through all the
exercises, several times, doing both the Pali->English and the
English->Pali, and then doing the same exercises in the reverse
direction (i.e. reading the 'answers' in the back and trying to
reconstruct the original exercise). When I get through a little more
(maybe lesson 15 or so), I'll go back and memorize more endings,
usages, contractions, etc. Compounds start on lesson 16, and I would
like to have the basic endings down well before jumping into
compounds.

Funny how translations can get really mixed up by a beginner when
there is no context for the sentence. For example, in lesson 3 Warder
translates "upaasaka.m braahman dhaareti" as "he accepts the priest
as a lay disciple." I had "He remembers the brahmin lay disciple."
Another one: "attha.m dhaareti," which Warder has as "He remembers
the meaning," while I thought about "He has wealth."

I do have a couple of questions that you might be able to help me
with. In lesson 5, Warder talks about how a double negative is
equivalent to a strong affirmation. [Interesting... In English, it's
usually a weak affirmation, and in Greek it would be a strong
negation!] In lesson 6, he then gives the sentence, "n' eso h' atthii
ti vadaami," which he translates as "I don't say, 'This doesn't
exist.'" I'd think a strong affirmation would sound something like
this: "I say, 'This surely exists.'" How can we tell that the
first 'na' negates the 'vadaami' instead of doubling the second 'na'?

Also, in lesson 6 he introduces the "Imperative Tense." I've always
learned that 'imperative' was a 'mood' (along with indicative,
subjunctive, optative) , but tenses were more time oriented (like
present, imperfect, future, past, pluperfect, etc.) I can see a
temporal sense in the imperative (somewhat future-ish), but it still
seems peculiar... Surely, the subjunctive can't be called a tense
too, can it?

Dan



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
547
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:29am
Subject: Re: sandhis.

 
    Dear Nina,

> op 04-07-2002 13:48 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:
> Dear Jim,
> thank you very much for all the info I am studying. Do you manage this
with
> your lap top? I thought you were not home yet.

Yes, I'm managing this mostly with my laptop while still away from home. I
have the CSCD disk in the computer so all the Pali texts are on hand but
with no translations. The books I brought with me are two volumes from H.
Smith's ed. of the Saddaniti and a compact Sanskrit dictionary. I'll be
finished with my stay in the city next weekend and will head up north to
spend about a week with my mother and then back home to the cottage where
all my books are kept. I hope everything will be just as I left it last
March.

Best wishes,
Jim


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548
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 10:54pm
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Dan,

A belated response to your message sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 2:34 PM


> Dear Jim and Robert,
> Very interesting comments on "bhava" and "bhavata.nhaa"...
>
> Jim: ...The 'bhava' in 'bhavata.nhaa' refers to the eternalistic view
> (sassatadi.t.thi). I had to check with the commentaries for this
> explanation which goes something like this: passion/desire (raaga)
> accompanied by the eternalistic view. Di.t.thi has to be read in
> between bhava and ta.nhaa.
>
> --> Dan: If bhavata.nhaa is ditthi (which makes sense), the sotapanna
> are free from bhavata.nhaa (which also makes sense). However, this
> bhava (being) of bhavata.nhaa seems quite different from the bhava
> (becoming) of paticca-samuppada. Isn't every grasping at a sense
> object really a ta.nha for bhava (as "becoming" rather than "being")?
> This moment to moment renewal of being (i.e. becoming) arises in
> response to the craving for the process of renewal, for "becoming" --
> the monkey mind that grasps for object after object after object
> because each object turns out to be unsatisfactory.

It's not correct to say that bhavata.nhaa is di.t.thi. It is better to say
that it is ta.nhaa accompanied by bhavadi.t.thi (eternity view). I'm aware
that bhavata.nhaa is often translated as craving for existence which is
quite different from the former. I have done a bit of researching of the
term as used in the context of kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, & vibhavata.nhaa
found in the formulations of the second noble truth and in the explanations
of ta.nhaa in pa.ticcasamuppaada. I haven't looked at how the term is used
in other contexts. What I have found are two significantly different
explanations of the 3 ta.nhaa-s. On the one hand we find that the terms are
similarly explained in the Vinaya subcommentary, the Visuddhimagga, and to a
lesser extent in the Mahaanidaanasutta (DN) commentary as follows:

<< Ruupata.nhaadibhedena chabbidhaayeva ta.nhaa pavatti-aakaarabhedato
kaamata.nhaadivasena tividhaa vuttaa. Ruupata.nhaayeva hi yadaa cakkhussa
aapaathamaagata.m ruupaaramma.na.m kaamassaadavasena assaadayamaanaa
pavattati, tadaa kaamata.nhaa naama hoti. Yadaa tadevaaramma.na.m dhuva.m
sassatanti pavattaaya sassatadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa
bhavata.nhaa naama hoti. Sassatadi.t.thisahagato hi raago "bhavata.nhaa"ti
vuccati. Yadaa pana tadevaaramma.na.m ucchijjati vinassatiiti pavattaaya
ucchedadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa vibhavata.nhaa naama hoti.
Ucchedadi.t.thisahagato hi raago "vibhavata.nhaa"ti vuccati. Esa nayo
saddata.nhaadiisupi. >> Sp-p.t 3.176, Vism 2 para 644 (CSCD) is similar.

This includes the explanation of craving accompanied by the eternity view.

On the other hand we find in the commentaries to the Vibhanga and the
Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta the following:

<< Kaamata.nhaati kaame ta.nhaa kaamata.nhaa; pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraagasseta.m
adhivacana.m. Bhave ta.nhaa bhavata.nhaa; bhavapatthanaavasena uppannassa
sassatadi.t.thisahagatassa ruupaaruupabhavaraagassa ca jhaananikantiyaa
ceta.m adhivacana.m. Vibhave ta.nhaa vibhavata.nhaa;
ucchedadi.t.thisahagatassa raagasseta.m adhivacana.m. >> Vbh-a 111

"bhave ta.nhaa" is craving with respect to existence. Bhave is in the
locative sing. and I'm not sure how it relates to ta.nhaa so here 'with
respect to' is just a guess. This resolution of the compound might be where
the "craving for existence" comes from. You will also note that in this
explanation the craving is also accompanied by the eternity-view but
ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga as the sixth and seventh fetters (sa.myojana-s)
are without the eternity view (eradicated at the stream-entry level). I
suspect that the desire for jhaanic states is also accompanied by the
eternity view.

> Is it fair to say that bhavata.nhaa is eradicated at stream-entry but
> ta.nhaa for bhava is not eradicated until arahantship?

I agree that craving accompanied by the eternity view is eradicated at
stream-entry but not the craving (unaccompanied by view) which won't be
completely eradicated until arahantship. Among the 8 lobhacittas in the
Dhammasangani, the four that are accompanied by view are eradicated at
stream-entry leaving just four more to go. So far I haven't found any text
to support the notion of bhavata.nhaa without a view. It's a difficult
subject requiring considerably more study to know for sure all the
ramifications of the term.

Best wishes,
Jim


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549
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 11:23am
Subject: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
    Dear Dan, Jim, Nina, and Pali Friends

How are you? 

Dan, welcome to the world of Pali Language that is the right language 
(Sammaa Bhaasaa).

Jim, Nina and Robert, thank you for your patient research and 
discussion on the Pali passage regarding the fourth noble truth.

The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the 
fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in 
as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
through" on the translation.

I hope you find it useful.


"`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
aa.nam udapaadi, paaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe pe 
udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, aa.nam udapaadi, paaa
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, 
Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
produced by Vipassana research Institute .


THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH

Translated By Suan Lu Zaw

Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light 
occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the 
noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, 
the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on 
the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble 
truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and 
the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as 
for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of 
misery has been accomplished.


GRAMMARTICAL NOTES

Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities 
This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in the 
modern context.

Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of 
occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of 
realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here 
is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred to 
him, not on his ignorance of realities.

Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening.

Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The 
Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the 
subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the 
contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the 
action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should be 
followed through).

Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the 
observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth 
as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.

Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound 
effect.

Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.

Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section 
265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.

Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 
Paathika Atthakathaa.


With regards,

Suan

http://www.bodhiology.org
 
 
550
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: [Warder

 
    op 05-07-2002 22:43 schreef onco111 op dhd5@cornell.edu:
Robert, Thank you for the Sandhi lis. As you say, we read it over, not
trying to memorize it. We shall meet enough of them in the texts.
Dan: 
> --> Dan: I'm just starting lesson 7 (slow going the past few days
> with the holiday this week). At this point, I'm reading through
> everything and only half-way memorizing the grammar. The vocabulary
> I'm not explicitly memorizing, but I am reading through all the
> exercises, several times, doing both the Pali->English and the
> English->Pali, 
N: I have an old book, 1963, and here they do not give the answers to the
exercises, nor to they give the references where you can find the suttas.
But it is O.K. 
> Funny how translations can get really mixed up by a beginner when
> there is no context for the sentence. For example, in lesson 3 Warder
> translates "upaasaka.m braahman dhaareti" as "he accepts the priest
> as a lay disciple." I had "He remembers the brahmin lay disciple."
N: I would think, he takes the laydisciple for a brahmin. Brahmin stands
close to dhaareti. 
Dan: Another one: "attha.m dhaareti," which Warder has as "He remembers
> the meaning," while I thought about "He has wealth."
N: The context is too short, not a real sentence. I found attha.m meaning,
occurs very often in the texts.
> 
Dan: I do have a couple of questions that you might be able to help me
> with. In lesson 5, Warder talks about how a double negative is
> equivalent to a strong affirmation. [Interesting... In English, it's
> usually a weak affirmation, and in Greek it would be a strong
> negation!] In lesson 6, he then gives the sentence, "n' eso h' atthii
> ti vadaami," which he translates as "I don't say, 'This doesn't
> exist.'" I'd think a strong affirmation would sound something like
> this: "I say, 'This surely exists.'" How can we tell that the
> first 'na' negates the 'vadaami' instead of doubling the second 'na'?
N: I think instead of the h' it must be a n" : n'eso n'atthii ti vadaami.
Pali is so direct with these ti sentences, thus, the effect is stronger. It
should be read aloud.
The first na negates the vadaami because we see the ti which is the
quotation, the whole sentence after n' belongs together.
Dan: Also, in lesson 6 he introduces the "Imperative Tense." I've always
> learned that 'imperative' was a 'mood' (along with indicative,
> subjunctive, optative) , but tenses were more time oriented (like
> present, imperfect, future, past, pluperfect, etc.) I can see a
> temporal sense in the imperative (somewhat future-ish), but it still
> seems peculiar... Surely, the subjunctive can't be called a tense
> too, can it?
N: I believe we follow here the Indian grammar. I do not find this a
problem, I do not compare with English now, otherwise we do not get the feel
of the Pali language.
Best wishes, Nina.
 
 
551
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:29am
Subject: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
    Dear Suan,

Thank-you for your translation with notes on which I will have more to say
later in the weeks ahead when I'm not so busy. Just one quick question
though: why do you translate 'udapaadi' (aorist of uppajjati) in the present
tense (occur)? ['udapaadi' is often translated as 'arose']

Jim



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552
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:17am
Subject: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth: To Jim

 
    Dear Jim

Thank you for pointing out the tense of the verb "udapaadi".

I did check "Padatthamanjuusaa" Pali-Myanmar Dictionary By Sayagyi U 
Hote Sein, widely used by Sayadaws and lay intellectuals alike in 
Myanmar for its handy size and fairly comprehensive entries.

That dictionary gives the following.

udapaadi - (ajja uppajjati) To occur. 

The examples that follow are also all in the present tense.

Therefore, I translated it in the present tense.

However, I will check the matter further when I have more freer time 
by consulting relevant Saddaa Texts such as Saddaniiti, Ruupasiddhi 
and the like.

Thank you again.

Looking forward to your coming discussions.

With regards,

Suan







--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> 
> Thank-you for your translation with notes on which I will have more 
to say
> later in the weeks ahead when I'm not so busy. Just one quick 
question
> though: why do you translate 'udapaadi' (aorist of uppajjati) in 
the present
> tense (occur)? ['udapaadi' is often translated as 'arose']
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
553
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
    Dear Suan,
Thank you very much for the text and your interesting comments, well worth
studying, as always. I liked especially your remarks about the small wrods,
pana and idam, idam for sound effect. Something new I learnt. Only the
examples underneath I could not translate. Nipaata means indeclinable.
With appreciation,
Nina. 

op 09-07-2002 17:23 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@bodhiology.org:

> 
> Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the
> observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth
> as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.
> 
> Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound
> effect.
> 
> Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.
> 
> Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section
> 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.
> 
> Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96
> Paathika Atthakathaa.
> 
>
 
 
554
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for the interesting texts. It seems that there are
contradictions, but usually this is because different items are stressed.
There is no end to a study like this, I find. I looked at the Dispeller of
Delusion, and then bhavatanha is accompanied by ditthi.
I looked at Expositor II, p. 471, and p. 475. On p. 471, it seems all kinds
of tanha are enumerated,first kaama, and then bhava: for existence rupa and
arupa, and then, craving for non-existence annihilism. On p. 475, under
asavas, again they are separately enumerated: Passionate desire for life in
a heaven of attenuated matter, and of immaterial exisyence, longing for
jhaana, lust coexistent with an eternalistic view are called the intoxicant
of rebirth, as being desire applied to rebirth. As far as I understand,
these are asavas with the eight lobha-muulacittas, including the clinging to
rupajhaana and arupajhaana and their results, not necessarily with wrong
view.
Again, I looked at Co to Diighanikaaya, Sa.ngiitisutta, the Threes p. 988.
First is explained about bhavata.nhaa accompanied by ditthi.Then about two
other bhavata.nhaa: ruupaaruupa-bhavesu chanda-raago itaraa dve ta.nhaa.
..He then explains why it is taught differently in the Abh, but I find the
text here complicated:In the Abh. the three kinds of tanha are taught as
included in kaamadhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupadhaatu. It is asked: why has
it been taught thus? Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all dhammas of the
three planes) rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa ti, sabbe ta.nhaa
kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa (having controlled) tato niiharitvaa(deduced
therefrom) itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi. And at the end he names these two
again and in addition he says: uccheda-di.t.thi-sahagato raago
nirodha-ta.nhaa, this for non-rebirth, nirodha. The word itaro dve I find
significant, two other kinds. And with these two kinds he adds chanda-raago,
which may represent clinging without di.t.thi. Why otherwise is he saying
this? The sentence in between about all tanha based on the three planes I
find difficult. I shall be grateful if you can help, I am keen on knowing
this. 
When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling without or with
ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot cling to jhaana or its
result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to everything, except lokuttara
dhammas. As you mention, when we consider the fetters that are eradicated at
the stage of arahatship, only then all kinds of clinging to birth are
eradicated. The sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he knows
this is because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a ruupa
plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his
attainment of jhaana.
With appreciation,
Nina. 

op 09-07-2002 04:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> << Ruupata.nhaadibhedena chabbidhaayeva ta.nhaa pavatti-aakaarabhedato
> kaamata.nhaadivasena tividhaa vuttaa. Ruupata.nhaayeva hi yadaa cakkhussa
> aapaathamaagata.m ruupaaramma.na.m kaamassaadavasena assaadayamaanaa
> pavattati, tadaa kaamata.nhaa naama hoti. Yadaa tadevaaramma.na.m dhuva.m
> sassatanti pavattaaya sassatadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa
> bhavata.nhaa naama hoti. Sassatadi.t.thisahagato hi raago "bhavata.nhaa"ti
> vuccati. Yadaa pana tadevaaramma.na.m ucchijjati vinassatiiti pavattaaya
> ucchedadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa vibhavata.nhaa naama hoti.
> Ucchedadi.t.thisahagato hi raago "vibhavata.nhaa"ti vuccati. Esa nayo
> saddata.nhaadiisupi. >> Sp-p.t 3.176, Vism 2 para 644 (CSCD) is similar.
> 
> This includes the explanation of craving accompanied by the eternity view.
> 
> On the other hand we find in the commentaries to the Vibhanga and the
> Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta the following:
> 
> << Kaamata.nhaati kaame ta.nhaa kaamata.nhaa; pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraagasseta.m
> adhivacana.m. Bhave ta.nhaa bhavata.nhaa; bhavapatthanaavasena uppannassa
> sassatadi.t.thisahagatassa ruupaaruupabhavaraagassa ca jhaananikantiyaa
> ceta.m adhivacana.m. Vibhave ta.nhaa vibhavata.nhaa;
> ucchedadi.t.thisahagatassa raagasseta.m adhivacana.m. >> Vbh-a 111
> 
> "bhave ta.nhaa" is craving with respect to existence. Bhave is in the
> locative sing. and I'm not sure how it relates to ta.nhaa so here 'with
> respect to' is just a guess. This resolution of the compound might be where
> the "craving for existence" comes from. You will also note that in this
> explanation the craving is also accompanied by the eternity-view but
> ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga as the sixth and seventh fetters (sa.myojana-s)
> are without the eternity view (eradicated at the stream-entry level). I
> suspect that the desire for jhaanic states is also accompanied by the
> eternity view.


555
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:57am
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Nina,

Thank-you for your detailed response. I will have to delay a full reply
until after I study in detail the references you refer to once I'm back home
and have access to my library again which won't be long now as I could be
leaving Toronto as early as tomorrow. Before Dan raised the subject of
bhavata.nhaa I hardly knew anything about it other than that it meant
something like 'craving for existence'. What I had come up with was only
just a beginning and there certainly needs to be more investigating,
reviewing, and sorting out. I will get back to you later on this.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
> Thank you very much for the interesting texts. It seems that there are
> contradictions, but usually this is because different items are stressed.
> There is no end to a study like this, I find. I looked at the Dispeller of
> Delusion, and then bhavatanha is accompanied by ditthi.
> I looked at Expositor II, p. 471, and p. 475. On p. 471, it seems all
kinds
> of tanha are enumerated,first kaama, and then bhava: for existence rupa
and
> arupa, and then, craving for non-existence annihilism. On p. 475, under
> asavas, again they are separately enumerated: Passionate desire for life
in
> a heaven of attenuated matter, and of immaterial exisyence, longing for
> jhaana, lust coexistent with an eternalistic view are called the
intoxicant
> of rebirth, as being desire applied to rebirth. As far as I understand,
> these are asavas with the eight lobha-muulacittas, including the clinging
to
> rupajhaana and arupajhaana and their results, not necessarily with wrong
> view.
> Again, I looked at Co to Diighanikaaya, Sa.ngiitisutta, the Threes p. 988.
> First is explained about bhavata.nhaa accompanied by ditthi.Then about
two
> other bhavata.nhaa: ruupaaruupa-bhavesu chanda-raago itaraa dve ta.nhaa.
> ..He then explains why it is taught differently in the Abh, but I find the
> text here complicated:In the Abh. the three kinds of tanha are taught as
> included in kaamadhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupadhaatu. It is asked: why
has
> it been taught thus? Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all dhammas of
the
> three planes) rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa ti, sabbe ta.nhaa
> kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa (having controlled) tato
niiharitvaa(deduced
> therefrom) itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi. And at the end he names these two
> again and in addition he says: uccheda-di.t.thi-sahagato raago
> nirodha-ta.nhaa, this for non-rebirth, nirodha. The word itaro dve I find
> significant, two other kinds. And with these two kinds he adds
chanda-raago,
> which may represent clinging without di.t.thi. Why otherwise is he saying
> this? The sentence in between about all tanha based on the three planes I
> find difficult. I shall be grateful if you can help, I am keen on knowing
> this.
> When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling without or
with
> ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot cling to jhaana or
its
> result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to everything, except lokuttara
> dhammas. As you mention, when we consider the fetters that are eradicated
at
> the stage of arahatship, only then all kinds of clinging to birth are
> eradicated. The sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he
knows
> this is because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a
ruupa
> plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his
> attainment of jhaana.
> With appreciation,
> Nina.


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556
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 11:06am
Subject: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth: To Nina

 
    Dear Nina

How are you?

Sorry for my late reply. Due to my ISP technical problems, I was not 
able to log on to the Internent since last Thursday night (11 July 
2002). Only now I was able to log on to the Internet.

Thank you for your kind comments.

Here are the translations for the quotes in my post.

1."Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. 
Section 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa."

The above commentary Pali refers to the following Pali original.

"Ekamidaaham, bho gotama, samayam.." 

"Ekam idam aham, bho gotama, samayam..."

"Once, Gotama, I .."

Therefore, we could translate the commentary Pali as follows.

In the phrase "Ekamidaaham", 'idam' is merely nipaata with no meaning 
here. The meaning of "ekamidaaham" would be "Once, I ...". 


2. Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96
Paathika Atthakathaa.

The above commentary Pali refers to the following Pali original.

"manussesu ekidam sattaa vannavanto honti, ekidam sattaa 
dubbannaa."

"Monks, among human beings, some beings are beautiful, some beings 
ugly".

Therefore, we could trnaslate the commentary Pali as follows.

In the phrase "Ekidam", 'idam is merely nipaata with no meaning here. 
The meaning of "Ekidam sattaa" would be "Some beings ..". 

Please notice that "eke" is unusual. It looks like the case of a 
plural object. So "one"'s plural would be "ones". Amazing! But, we 
need to translate "Eke" as "some" for natural English. 


With kind regards,

Suan



--- In palistudy@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> Thank you very much for the text and your interesting comments, 
well worth
> studying, as always. I liked especially your remarks about the 
small wrods,
> pana and idam, idam for sound effect. Something new I learnt. Only 
the
> examples underneath I could not translate. Nipaata means 
indeclinable.
> With appreciation,
> Nina. 
> 
> op 09-07-2002 17:23 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...:
> 
> > 
> > Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the
> > observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble 
truth
> > as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.
> > 
> > Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound
> > effect.
> > 
> > Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.
> > 
> > Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. 
Section
> > 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.
> > 
> > Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 
96
> > Paathika Atthakathaa.
> > 
> >
 
 
557
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 11:44am
Subject: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth: To Jim

 
    Dear Jim


The following is Udapaadi update.

I wrote in my reply to you the following.

"udapaadi - (ajja uppajjati) To occur."

That night (Wednesday, 10 July), when I woke up while in bed, the 
idea of "ajja" likely to be "ajjatanii" occurred to me. The next 
morning (11 July), I read Introduction of the Dictionary. I found 
that Section 18 of the Introduction was the section for 
abbreviations. Yes, "ajja" was the abbreviation of "ajjatanii".

Therefore, "udapaadi" would be in the past tense or in the perfect 
tense.

It was my oversight to translate "udapaadi" in the simple present 
tense.

As ajjatanii is the tense for now and today as when a teacher asking 
students to perform and complete a classroom exercise, we could 
translate "udapaadi" as "has occurred".

What would be your comment?

With regards,

Suan




--- In palistudy@y..., "abhidhammika" <suanluzaw@b...> wrote:


Dear Jim

Thank you for pointing out the tense of the verb "udapaadi".

I did check "Padatthamanjuusaa" Pali-Myanmar Dictionary By Sayagyi U 
Hote Sein, widely used by Sayadaws and lay intellectuals alike in 
Myanmar for its handy size and fairly comprehensive entries.

That dictionary gives the following.

udapaadi - (ajja uppajjati) To occur. 

The examples that follow are also all in the present tense.

Therefore, I translated it in the present tense.

However, I will check the matter further when I have more freer time 
by consulting relevant Saddaa Texts such as Saddaniiti, Ruupasiddhi 
and the like.

Thank you again.

Looking forward to your coming discussions.

With regards,

Suan







--- In palistudy

> --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Suan,
> > 
> > Thank-you for your translation with notes on which I will have 
more 
> to say
> > later in the weeks ahead when I'm not so busy. Just one quick 
> question
> > though: why do you translate 'udapaadi' (aorist of uppajjati) in 
> the present
> > tense (occur)? ['udapaadi' is often translated as 'arose']
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
558
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 0:57pm
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    op 12-07-2002 12:57 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

Before Dan raised the subject of
> bhavata.nhaa I hardly knew anything about it other than that it meant
> something like 'craving for existence'. What I had come up with was only
> just a beginning and there certainly needs to be more investigating,

Dear Jim, thank you for your reply. I wait for your comments when you are
home. Dan brought something on and now he is fleeing to his blockhut,
hopefully with Warder.

Meanwhile, I looked again and something may be clearer:
Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all dhammas of
> the
>> three planes)
rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa ti,
are bases of craving because they are delightful

sabbe ta.nhaa
>> kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa tato
> niiharitvaa itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi.

having eliminated all craving with regard to sensuous clinging, he teaches
two other kinds of craving after having deduced them therefrom.
ta.nhaaya can be abl, loc, instr, gen and dat, but I thought: with regard to
is convenient. 
But now the meaning is still not very clear. Questions remain, I shall wait.
Wishing you a happy homecoming,
Nina
 
 
559
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth: To Nina

 
    Dear Suan,
Thank you for translating the examples, and now these are really clear. A
good example that ida.m has no special meaning.
Best wishes from Nina.

op 13-07-2002 17:06 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@bodhiology.org:

> In the phrase "Ekamidaaham", 'idam' is merely nipaata with no meaning
> here. The meaning of "ekamidaaham" would be "Once, I ...".
 
 
560
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:18am
Subject: Saha And Saddhi.m

 
    Dear Pali Friends

I have just posted the following to reply the request of Bill Strider
regarding the uses of saha and saddhi.m. in Pali Group.

I hope you find it useful, too.

Suan

--------------------------



Dear Bill Strider,(and other Pali Friends)

How are you?

You wrote:

"Both saha and saddhi.m are used with instrumental case
nouns to mean "with."

Are these two words entirely interchangeable, or are there
situations where one of them is more appropriate than the
other?"

Generally, they are interchangeable.

However, when saha has the meaning of being filled, adorned, dressed, 
covered, or complete with, only saha is more appropriate than 
saddhi.m. 

"Saha iti sampannatthe ca". Chapter 8, Catupadavibhaaga, Nipaatapada, 
Saddaniiti Suttamaalaa By Sayadaw Aggavamsa Of Myanmar.

"Saha is also used in the sense of being complete with."

Sayadaw gave the following quote from Majjhimanikaaya. 

"(A.t.thi tacena onaddham,[my addition]) saha vatthebhi sobhati." 
Section 302, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya.

"(The body), being built with bones and skin, and covered with 
clothes, looks good."

I hope you find the above information helpful.


With kind regards,

Suan Lu Zaw

http://www.bodhiology.org
 
 
561
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:23am
Subject: Re: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
    Dear Suan,
Thanks for the welcome and the clear and cogent explanation. I will 
keep re-reading this one several times.

> Dan, welcome to the world of Pali Language that is the right 
language 
> (Sammaa Bhaasaa).
> 
> Jim, Nina and Robert, thank you for your patient research and 
> discussion on the Pali passage regarding the fourth noble truth.
> 
> The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the 
> fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
> literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it 
in 
> as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
> through" on the translation.
> 
> I hope you find it useful.
> 
> 
> "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
> bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
> aa.nam udapaadi, paaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
> udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe pe 
> udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
> tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, aa.nam udapaadi, paaa
> udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.
> 
> The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, 
> Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
> produced by Vipassana research Institute .
> 
> 
> THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH
> 
> Translated By Suan Lu Zaw
> 
> Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light 
> occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the 
> noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, 
> the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on 
> the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that 
noble 
> truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
> followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, 
and 
> the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, 
as 
> for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation 
of 
> misery has been accomplished.
> 
> 
> GRAMMARTICAL NOTES
> 
> Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities 
> This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in 
the 
> modern context.
> 
> Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of 
> occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of 
> realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here 
> is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred 
to 
> him, not on his ignorance of realities.
> 
> Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening.
> 
> Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The 
> Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the 
> subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the 
> contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the 
> action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should 
be 
> followed through).
> 
> Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the 
> observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth 
> as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.
> 
> Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound 
> effect.
> 
> Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.
> 
> Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. 
Section 
> 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.
> 
> Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 
> Paathika Atthakathaa.
> 
> 
> With regards,
> 
> Suan
> 
> http://www.bodhiology.org
 
 
562
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:29am
Subject: Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

 
    Dear Jim and Nina,
It's tough to keep up with all your excellent comments. Thanks for 
sharing your insights. I'm going to try to close out my participation 
in the threads in the next couple of days because I am going on 
vacation to Montana with my family in two weeks (yes, I'll bring 
Warder, but I doubt there will be much time to look at it -- 
vacations are always so busy!), and I have a lot of work to get done 
before then.

Jim: It's not correct to say that bhavata.nhaa is di.t.thi. It is 
better to say that it is ta.nhaa accompanied by bhavadi.t.thi 
(eternity view). I'm aware that bhavata.nhaa is often translated as 
craving for existence which is quite different from the former. 

--> Dan: I stand corrected. I'm a bit wary, though, about concluding 
that "craving for existence" differs from ta.nhaa accompanied by 
bhavadi.t.thi. I see them as the same...

Yes, there may be craving for some other object with bhavadi.t.thi 
arising with the craving. But then isn't bhavadi.t.thi the view that 
there is some 'thing' doing the craving, some 'thing' that the craved 
object is supposed to gratify? Then, the craving is really for a 
perpetuated gratification of this 'thing', which seems a lot 
like "craving for existence." 

O.K. I can see how it takes a bit of work to maintain that they are 
the same thing. They could just be different words pointing to the 
same idea (albeit pointing in somewhat different ways). Can one arise 
without the other? I'd have to say "no," but with two caveats. First, 
I am saying "craving for existence" and "ta.nhaa accompanied by 
bhavadi.t.thi" must arise together (because they point to the same 
thing), but "craving for becoming" (or "craving for rebirth") is 
different from "craving for existence". The "craving for existence" 
is craving for gratification of a some being (i.e. it is craving 
accompanied by view), while "craving for rebirth" is craving for 
gratification (period). The latter need not be accompanied by 
di.t.thi, while the former must. Both are "bhavata.nhaa"? And we need 
to deduce from the context which is meant? I think this is what Nina 
is pointing out. Second, this is speculation (obviously).

.........
Nina: Thank you very much for the interesting texts. It seems that 
there are contradictions, but usually this is because different items 
are stressed. There is no end to a study like this, I find. I looked 
at the Dispeller of Delusion, and then bhavatanha is accompanied by 
ditthi. I looked at Expositor II, p. 471, and p. 475. On p. 471, it 
seems all kinds of tanha are enumerated,first kaama, and then bhava: 
for existence rupa and arupa, and then, craving for non-existence 
annihilism. On p. 475, under asavas, again they are separately 
enumerated: Passionate desire for life in a heaven of attenuated 
matter, and of immaterial exisyence, longing for jhaana, lust 
coexistent with an eternalistic view are called the intoxicant of 
rebirth, as being desire applied to rebirth. As far as I understand, 
these are asavas with the eight lobha-muulacittas, including the 
clinging to rupajhaana and arupajhaana and their results, not 
necessarily with wrong view.Again, I looked at Co to Diighanikaaya, 
Sa.ngiitisutta, the Threes p. 988. First is explained about 
bhavata.nhaa accompanied by ditthi.Then about two other bhavata.nhaa: 
ruupaaruupa-bhavesu chanda-raago itaraa dve ta.nhaa. ..He then 
explains why it is taught differently in the Abh, but I find the text 
here complicated:In the Abh. the three kinds of tanha are taught as 
included in kaamadhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupadhaatu. It is asked: 
why has it been taught thus? Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all 
dhammas of the three planes) rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa 
ti, sabbe ta.nhaa kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa (having controlled) 
tato niiharitvaa(deduced therefrom) itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi. And 
at the end he names these two again and in addition he says: uccheda-
di.t.thi-sahagato raago nirodha-ta.nhaa, this for non-rebirth, 
nirodha. The word itaro dve I find significant, two other kinds. And 
with these two kinds he adds chanda-raago, which may represent 
clinging without di.t.thi. Why otherwise is he saying this? The 
sentence in between about all tanha based on the three planes I find 
difficult. I shall be grateful if you can help, I am keen on knowing 
this. When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling 
without or with ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot 
cling to jhaana or its result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to 
everything, except lokuttara dhammas. As you mention, when we 
consider the fetters that are eradicated at the stage of arahatship, 
only then all kinds of clinging to birth are eradicated. The 
sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he knows this is 
because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a ruupa 
plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his 
attainment of jhaana.
--> Dan: This is great, Nina. Your explanation makes more sense to me 
when I think of it in the context of the moment-to-moment death and 
rebirth (paticca-sammupada with sankharo instead of -a, etc.). There 
can still be craving for the cycle even when there is no craving for 
any being to do the cycling.

___________________________________
Nina: Meanwhile, I looked again and something may be clearer: Sabbe 
pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all dhammas of the three planes) 
rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa ti, are bases of craving 
because they are delightful

"sabbe ta.nhaa kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa tato niiharitvaa 
itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi." --having eliminated all craving with 
regard to sensuous clinging, he teaches two other kinds of craving 
after having deduced them therefrom.

--> Dan: Right. How can there be craving for cycling when there is no 
craving for a cycler? The constant seeking for gratification 
continues. We try so many things, and all turn out to be 
unsatisfactory. The most delightful are more difficult to see as 
unsatisfactory, and the clinging is thus more persistent. 

Dan
 
 
563
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Saha And Saddhi.m

 
    Dear Suan, 
I enjoy it learning about words close in meanings, but still different. If
you have more such words, I am looking forward,
with many thanks,
Nina. 

op 14-07-2002 17:18 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@bodhiology.org:
> --------------------------
> 
> "Both saha and saddhi.m are used with instrumental case
> nouns to mean "with."
> 
> Are these two words entirely interchangeable, or are there
> situations where one of them is more appropriate than the
> other?"
> 
> Generally, they are interchangeable.
> 
> However, when saha has the meaning of being filled, adorned, dressed,
> covered, or complete with, only saha is more appropriate than
> saddhi.m. 
> 
> "Saha iti sampannatthe ca". Chapter 8, Catupadavibhaaga, Nipaatapada,
> Saddaniiti Suttamaalaa By Sayadaw Aggavamsa Of Myanmar.
> 
> "Saha is also used in the sense of being complete with."
>
 
 
564
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Bhavatanhaa

 
    Dear Jim, another text of the Vis which is interesting:
XXII, 72: In the case of clingings, since according to what is given in the
texts all worldly states are sense desires, that is, sense desires as object
(see Nd I, 1-20), and so greed both for the fine material and the immaterial
falls under sense-desire clinging. Consequently that sense-desire clinging
is eliminated by the fourth knowledge. The rest are eliminated by the first
knowledge.
This seems to be the same as the text of the Sumangalavilasini. Thus it all
depends under which heading dhammas are classified. As to Mahaniddesa,
difficult to find that in my Thai edition, but it must be in the first
suttaniddesa. 
Best wishes, from Nina.
 
 
565
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:26am
Subject: Assaji's Beautiful Brief Restatement

 
    Dear Dhamma Friends

Sergei asked the following.

"Does anyone know of a story that runs like this: The master is 
teaching in a grove of trees somewhere. A visitor approaches and
asks, "What does this master teach?" and the reply from someone 
departing is "He teaches that everything that happens is caused.
I saw this in a book one time and then couldn't find it again. 
Could anyone cite a sutra or some Buddhist commentary that contains 
this?"

Sergei's question has reminded me of Assaji's beautiful brief 
restatement of the essence of the Buddha's teachings. Therefore, I 
wrote the following reply to him. 

I hope you also find it useful!

Suan

------------------------------------------------------


Dear Sergei90245

How are you?

I am not sure about your story. However, there is an episode of how 
Saariputta became the disciple of the Buddha after having met with 
Assaji, one of the First Five Disciples of the Buddha, and having 
listened to Assaji's brief restatement.

The brief restatement, which is very beautiful, is as follows. 

"Ye dhammaa hetuppabhavaa, tesam hetum tathaagato aaha; 
tesaca yo nirodho, evamvaadii mahaasama.no"ti.

"The Buddha Tathaagato told us the cause of those phenomena which 
have causes as their beginnings, and the cessation of those phenomena 
and their causes as well. The Great Ascetic is such a teacher."

The above episode and that beautiful brief restatement can be found 
in Section 60, Mahaakhandhako, Mahaavaggo, Vinaya Pi.taka. (Roman 
Edition, Volume One, page. 39)

"Tesaca yo nirodhoti tesam ubhinnampi saccaanam yo appavattinirodho; 
taca tathaagato aahaati attho."

"Tesaca yo nirodho" means that the Buddha Tathaagato also taught the 
cessation, the no-longer-arising, of both those truths, namely the 
Noble Truth of Misery and the Noble Truth of Attachment (i.e, both 
phenomena and their causes)."

The above quote comes from the commentary on Mahaavaggo, Vinaya 
Pi.tako.

I hope that the above information satisfied your curiosity somewhat 
before someone else could locate the exact story you are after.


With kind regards,

Suan Lu Zaw

http://www.bodhiology.org
 
 
566
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Sun Jul 21, 2002 10:57am
Subject: Assaji's Beautiful Brief Restatement: To Dr Desmond Chiong

 
    Dear Dhamma Friends,

The following post is my reply to Dr Desmond Chiong who kindly shared 
important information with us regarding Mahakassapa and Ananda from 
the Mahayana perspective. 

The post contains my translation of a Vinaya Atthakathaa quote, and 
some observations.

I hope that you also find the post useful.

Suan


----------------------------------------------


Dear Dr Des

Thank you for your kind comments on the post (Assaji's Beautiful 
Brief Restatement), and for filling in more details for the post.

You also wrote:

"BUT ACCORDDING TO THE MAHAYANA
THE BUDDHA'S TWO MAIN DISCIPLES ARE:
MAHAKASAPA AND ANANDA."

I found this information new and very exciting. 

In one very important way, the Mahayana acceptance of Mahakassapa and 
Anada as Two Main Disciples of the Buddha is very significant.

The reason?

The whole of the Pali Tipitaka we now have is the version of 
Mahakassapa and Ananda because these two senior Arahants, together 
with Upaali, the Best Expert in Vinaya Practice (Vinayadhara 
Etadaggam), and other four hundred and ninety seven senior Arahants, 
recited, compiled and approved the Pali Tipi.taka at the First 
Congress Recital (Pathama Sangaayanaa). 

The Five Hundred Senior Arahants chosen by Mahakassapa for the First 
Congress Recital were the highest Arahants with Superhuman powers as 
the following quote shows.

"Thero ... tipi.takasabbapariyattippabhedadhare 
pa.tisambhidaappatte mahaanubhaave yebhuyyena bhagavataa 
etadaggam aaropite tevijjaadibhede khii.naasavabhikkhuuyeva 
ekuunapacasate pariggahesi."

"Mahakassapa Thero  selected 499 ascetics who had to be Arahants 
only, experts in all the fields of Tipi.taka instructional matters, 
specialists in analysis, superhumanly powerful, most of them elevated 
as the Best In Their Fields by the Buddha Bhagavataa in the 
distinctions such as Three Knowledges and the like." 

The above statement was made before Mahakassapa selected Ananda who 
was yet to become an Arahant just prior to the First Congress Recital.

The above quote can be found in Pathamasangiitikathaa, 
Parajikaka.n.dha Atthakathaa, Vinayapi.taka Atthakathaa, Vol. 1, page 
6.

The followers of the Pali Tipitaka are called Theravaadiis because 
the Pali Tipitaka was compiled, recited and approved by the Senior 
Arahants headed by Mahakassapa Thero. 

The Buddha himself was also a Senior Arahant. For example, Namo Tassa 
Bhagavato, ARAHATO, Sammaasambuddhassa. 

Therefore, Theravaada means the Teaching or Doctrine Of the Senior 
Arahants. 

Similarly, Theravaada Buddhism means Buddhism of the Senior Arahants. 
A Theravaada Buddhist is someone who follows the Teaching of the 
Senior Arahants.

In passing, though, I must say that some scholars regarded Pali 
Buddhism as one thing and Theravada Buddhism as another. 

In my opinion, those scholars were misguided. 

Only Theravaadiis preserved and looked after Pali Tipi.taka, and 
regularly conducted Congress Recitals of Pali Tipi.taka, now already 
six times, twice in Myanmar. 

Thank you again for your kind information on Mahakassapa and Ananda 
from the Mahayana perspective.

With kind regards,

Suan

http://www.bodhiology.org
 
 
567
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 7:59pm
Subject: Budsir on the web

 
    The complete mahidol Tipitaka plus commentaries, in Thai or roman 
script is now on the internet for free
http://budsir.mahidol.ac.th/
 
 
568
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Sep 1, 2002 10:29am
Subject: Study of Pali

 
    Hi Dan, I hope you had a nice stay in your log cabin. I hope you did not
forget your Pali. How is Warder coming along?
Best wishes from
Nina.
 
 
569
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 11:05am
Subject: Re: Study of Pali

 
    Hello Nina,

While you're waiting to hear from Dan, I thought I'd let you know that
I haven't forgotten about our palistudy group. I arrived back at my
cabin on July 28th but will soon be leaving again on Wednesday to meet
Khun Sujin and Amara in Niagara Falls on Friday. I should be back here
by Monday.

I still intend to get back to you on the 'bhavata.nha' thread as well
as several other ones. I ordered and received some new books from PTS.
I now have M. Cone's A Dictionary of Pali, Part I, a-kh which I think
is quite a good dictionary and recommended. It is more difficult to
locate entry-words in this dictionary as there are no headers at the
top of the pages. I have prepared an index to make it easier to locate
words. [If anyone would like a copy of this index which can be printed
on one sheet of paper, please send me a request offlist.] I also got
V. Perniola's Pali Grammar which I don't recommend. I now have Vol.
I-III of Sariputta's Anguttaranikaaya.tiikaa, ed. P. Pecenko. I
compared the sections on the first two Pabhassarasuttas (AN 49 & 50)
to those I sent you and was surprised to find that the subcommentary
is almost identical to the one on the Burmese CSCD disk (the only
difference I could find was a 'kilesenti' instead of 'kilissanti'. I
had mistakenly assumed that the CSCD Anguttara-tika was that of
Dhammapaala. However, the tikas on the first three nikaayas on the
disk belong to Dhammapaala. It seems that much of his tika on AN is
now lost and replaced by Sariputta's. I only know of an old incomplete
Ms in the National Library, Rangoon which cover only the first three
nipaatas and that would include the subcommentary on AN I.49-52.

I hope to make more contributions to psg in the near future when I'm
less distracted. I think I must be suffering from Amara-vikkhepa
(constant distraction). Actually, according to Cone's dictionary, the
term means '(constant) equivocation'.

Best wishes,

Jim

> Hi Dan, I hope you had a nice stay in your log cabin. I hope you did
not
> forget your Pali. How is Warder coming along?
> Best wishes from
> Nina.



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
570
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: Study of Pali

 
    Dear Jim, I am so glad to hear from you and how nice you will meet Khun
Sujin and Amara. I do hope everybody has a lovely trip. I wanted to
encourage Dan and I found it also a bit silent here. But I always try to do
my little (almost) daily reading, Fruits of Recluseship. Robert gives us so
nicely the Pali with English quotes, but this I cannot do with my iMac, I
think. And there is my lack of skill, taking too long.
Best wishes
from Nina. 

op 02-09-2002 17:05 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> While you're waiting to hear from Dan, I thought I'd let you know that
> I haven't forgotten about our palistudy group. I arrived back at my
> cabin on July 28th but will soon be leaving again on Wednesday to meet
> Khun Sujin and Amara in Niagara Falls on Friday. I should be back here
> by Monday.
 
 
571
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:35pm
Subject: Re: Study of Pali

 
    Hi Nina and Jim,
The Pali is going on hold for awhile, probably until next June. I 
wasn't expecting even the short window I had this summer, but I am 
grateful for the chance to get at least that beginning.

Jim, I am planning to go up to Niagara on Friday afternoon to meet 
you, Kom, KS, etc., but my schedule is fairly tight. I can be there 
from about 4:00 p.m. until 7:00, but that's it. Do you have any idea 
what the schedule is out there? I do hope I can hook up with y'all...

Dan
 
 
572
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 7:01pm
Subject: Re: Re: Study of Pali

 
    Dear Dan,

Welcome back!

> Jim, I am planning to go up to Niagara on Friday afternoon to meet
> you, Kom, KS, etc., but my schedule is fairly tight. I can be there
> from about 4:00 p.m. until 7:00, but that's it. Do you have any idea
> what the schedule is out there? I do hope I can hook up with
y'all...
>
> Dan

Great! Looking forward to meeting you. At this point I don't know
exactly how I'm getting down there. It'll be either by bus or with a
friend who drives.

This is the schedule I have for Friday:

Sept. 6th 10.00am after breakfast, dhamma discussions at the Falls
(all day)

About a month ago, Amara passed this along from Khun O:

<< [...] the best way is to have them come to the hotel
(Mariott Courtyard) Niagara Falls.
and meet us there, then we can all walk to the park
by the Falls and settle down there (right in front of the hotel)
the address is 5950 Victoria Ave, ph# (905) 358-3083 >>

My plans are to try to meet up with them at the hotel or in the park
later in the morning anytime after 10am and be with them for the whole
day so I should still be around during the time you plan to be there.
From what Khun O writes, the park and the Falls are right in front of
the hotel so I would suggest you look for us in the park or in or near
the hotel. I can make sure they keep on the lookout for you during
your time frame. I'll be leaving here tomorrow around noon to go to
Orillia first and then leave for the Falls on Thursday or very early
Friday morning.

Hope to see you there,

Jim


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573
From: onco111 <dhd5@cornell.edu> 
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 8:42pm
Subject: Re: Study of Pali

 
    This helps a lot, Jim. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll look for you in 
the park outside the hotel at around 4:00. I'm hoping that 
recognizing the group will not be too difficult.

See you Friday.

Dan

> About a month ago, Amara passed this along from Khun O:
> 
> << [...] the best way is to have them come to the hotel
> (Mariott Courtyard) Niagara Falls.
> and meet us there, then we can all walk to the park
> by the Falls and settle down there (right in front of the hotel)
> the address is 5950 Victoria Ave, ph# (905) 358-3083 >>
> 
> My plans are to try to meet up with them at the hotel or in the park
> later in the morning anytime after 10am and be with them for the 
whole
> day so I should still be around during the time you plan to be 
there.
> From what Khun O writes, the park and the Falls are right in front 
of
> the hotel so I would suggest you look for us in the park or in or 
near
> the hotel. I can make sure they keep on the lookout for you during
> your time frame. I'll be leaving here tomorrow around noon to go to
> Orillia first and then leave for the Falls on Thursday or very early
> Friday morning.
> 
> Hope to see you there,
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________

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574
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:05pm
Subject: anumaana sutta

 
    Dear Jim, 
I hope you have returned safely and well.
I have a question, but only if you have time. that also Robert could solve,
but I do not know whether he has access easily.

M I, no 15, Anumaanasutta, PTS:
<But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: I am not
of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires. then, with rapture and
delight that monk should forsake them, training day and night in skilled
states.>
N: forsake is strange. I followed the Thai:

<But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: I am not
of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires. then, with rapture and
delight, he should day and night train himself diligently in skilled
states.>
What is the Pali for this?

A similar passage in Ang. Book of Tens, ChVI, 1, at end: <then that monk
should make effort to establish just those profitable states and further to
destroy the cankers.>
Thank you,
Nina.
 
 
575
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:25pm
Subject: Re: anumaana sutta

 
    Dear Nina,

I returned safely to the cottage yesterday morning (Monday). I hope to
post something about the meeting in Niagara Falls to dsg within a few
days. I'm glad I went.

=====================
Nina:
Dear Jim,
I hope you have returned safely and well.
I have a question, but only if you have time. that also Robert could
solve,
but I do not know whether he has access easily.

M I, no 15, Anumaanasutta, PTS:
<But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: I
am not
of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires. then, with
rapture and
delight that monk should forsake them, training day and night in
skilled
states.>
N: forsake is strange. I followed the Thai:

<But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: I
am not
of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires. then, with
rapture and
delight, he should day and night train himself diligently in skilled
states.>
What is the Pali for this? >>

=====================
Jim: I see that Miss I.B. Horner has made a translation mistake by
reading 'pahaatabba.m' instead of the correct 'vihaatabba.m' (should
abide). Your rendering from the Thai certainly comes a lot closer to
the Pali.

Here's the passage in Pali:

Sace pan'aavuso bhikkhu paccavekkhamaano eva.m jaanaati: Na kho 'mhi
paapiccho na paapikaana.m icchaana.m vasa"ngato ti, ten'aavuso
bhikkhunaa ten'eva piitipaamujjena vihaatabba.m
ahorattaanaanusikkhinaa kusalesu dhammesu. -- M I 98

For my rough translation I've just made a few changes to yours as
follows:

But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: "I
am not one of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires." then,
with rapture and delight, he should abide in profitable states by
studying day and night.

For 'ahorattaanusikkhi(n)' in Cone's dictionary there is this: . . .
mfn.; continually studying, learning; . . .

=======================
Nina:
A similar passage in Ang. Book of Tens, ChVI, 1, at end: <then that
monk
should make effort to establish just those profitable states and
further to
destroy the cankers.>
Thank you,
Nina.

=======================
Jim:
The passage in Pali reads:
tena bhikkhave bhikkhunaa tesu yeva kusalesu dhammesu pati.t.thaaya
uttari.m aasavaana.m khayaaya yogakara.niiyo ti. -- A V 94

I'm reading it as:

then, monks, by <that> monk after having established <himself> in just
those profitable states, an effort is to made for the destruction of
the cankers in the future.

I saw in a message of yours on dsg dated Sept. 5th. that you were
asking for the Pali of 'physical virtue'. I still have a big backlog
of unread messages so I don't know yet if anyone else has responded.
The Pali is 'sariiragu.naana.m' (As 97) which could be read as a
dvanda compound instead of a kammadhaaraya translated as 'physical
virtue'.

Around the end of last month there was a discussion on Buddha-L about
how a line of verse in the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta should be
translated. Robert Eddison, Lance Cousins, and myself among others
were participants. I will post a small part of it here as soon as I
have something prepared.

Best wishes,

Jim

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576
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2002 6:46am
Subject: vihaatabba.m

 
    Dear Nina,

In my previous message when I wrote that 'vihaatabba.m' meant 'should
abide', I had assumed that it was a derivative of vi+har without even
bothering to look it up in the dictionary. Some time later I got to
thinking about it and realized that it can be a derivative of vi+haa
(abandon, forsake) and thought I had made a mistake and Horner was
right after all. After some checking in PED, I found no 'vihaatabba'
under 'viharati' nor a 'haatabba' under 'harati'. However,
'vihaatabba' is included under 'vijahati'. I then searched the CSCD
and found the following passage:

ime dhammaa upasampajja vihaatabbaa, . . . -- Pe.takopadesa p. 208

which ~Naa.namoli translates as:

these ideas should be entered upon and abode in, . . . --
Pi.taka-Disclosure p. 282

Also Geiger in his A Pali Grammar, p. 188, gives the same form:
"vihaatabba (from viharati) M III 294,27 = hartavya." It's derived in
the same way as 'kaatabba' is from kar + tabba. So we have to be aware
that 'vihaatabba' is a homonym which is not at all unusual for Pali.

Best wishes, Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
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577
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:02pm
Subject: Re: anumaana sutta

 
    Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your two messages, and I compared with PTS
dict. These homonyms, difficult. The PTs dict gives: vijahaati vihaatabba,
shoud forsake. But doing some vinicchaya: he has not these unskilful states.
He should abide in gladness. go on training himself. I prefer: viharati,
vihaatabba: he should abide.
Another paralel text: A. III, 307. Let him abide with gladness... training
himself. That makes more sense to me.
The sikkhi I like to translate here: training, not book study. Moreover, he
had no books. And it is not theoretical at all. He should go on with his
training until he reaches arahatship.

op 11-09-2002 03:25 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:


> Here's the passage in Pali:
> 
> Sace pan'aavuso bhikkhu paccavekkhamaano eva.m jaanaati: Na kho 'mhi
> paapiccho na paapikaana.m icchaana.m vasa"ngato ti, ten'aavuso
> bhikkhunaa ten'eva piitipaamujjena vihaatabba.m
> ahorattaanaanusikkhinaa kusalesu dhammesu. -- M I 98
> 
> For my rough translation I've just made a few changes to yours as
> follows:
> 
> But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: "I
> am not one of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires." then,
> with rapture and delight, he should abide in profitable states by
> studying day and night.
> 
> For 'ahorattaanusikkhi(n)' in Cone's dictionary there is this: . . .
> mfn.; continually studying, learning; . . .
> 
> I saw in a message of yours on dsg dated Sept. 5th. that you were
> asking for the Pali of 'physical virtue'. I still have a big backlog
> of unread messages so I don't know yet if anyone else has responded.
> The Pali is 'sariiragu.naana.m' (As 97) which could be read as a
> dvanda compound instead of a kammadhaaraya translated as 'physical
> virtue'.
N: I think this question may be from Robert?
J: Around the end of last month there was a discussion on Buddha-L about
> how a line of verse in the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta should be
> translated. Robert Eddison, Lance Cousins, and myself among others
> were participants. I will post a small part of it here as soon as I
> have something prepared.
N:I am delighted if you can now and then post something from Buddha-L. Thus,
Rob Ed is already recovered? As to Lance: long ago he gave me hospitality
when A. Sujin came to England. People had questions on nibbana and
meditation. At breackfast he asked me whether I had all the Pali prefixes,
suffixes, etc. Then he dictated me a lot at the breakfast table (his family
did not seem to object) and I still kept them. You know my interest in
those! You could tell him this, if you like.
Best wishes
from Nina.
 
 
578
From: sarahdhhk <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Fri Sep 13, 2002 3:23am
Subject: Re: anumaana sutta

 
    Dear Nina & Jim (& Dan),
(I'm replying to two or three of yr messages together here):

I got stuck (and bored) with the Warder exercises at a certain 
point when I seemed to spend all my time checking the glossary 
and previous chapters and then immediately forgetting what I'd 
just checked;-(. So I left it for a while (also travelling and busy 
with work). Now I spend 5 or 10 mins a day just reading the 
grammar explanations (which I mostly don't have much problem 
understanding) by the pool at my gym and forgetting all the 
exercises so that at least I turn the pages and have the illusion of 
some progress.;-)

Occasionally, something makes a little more sense like this:

--- In palistudy@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your two messages, and I 
compared with PTS
> dict. These homonyms, difficult. The PTs dict gives: vijahaati 
vihaatabba,
> shoud forsake. But doing some vinicchaya: he has not these 
unskilful states.
> He should abide in gladness. go on training himself. I prefer: 
viharati,
> vihaatabba: he should abide.
> Another paralel text: A. III, 307. Let him abide with gladness... 
training
> himself. That makes more sense to me.
.....
(`Optative tense' Warder calls it from memory). This makes more 
sense to me too and also seems to `match' A.111,70
viharissati - fut- will dwell
"..(will) dwell, day in day out, practising........" (I don't have the full 
Pali ).
.....
> The sikkhi I like to translate here: training, not book study. 
Moreover, he
> had no books. And it is not theoretical at all. He should go on 
with his
> training until he reaches arahatship.

J:> > Here's the passage in Pali:
> > 
> > Sace pan'aavuso bhikkhu paccavekkhamaano eva.m 
jaanaati: Na kho 'mhi
> > paapiccho na paapikaana.m icchaana.m vasa"ngato ti, 
ten'aavuso
> > bhikkhunaa ten'eva piitipaamujjena vihaatabba.m
> > ahorattaanaanusikkhinaa kusalesu dhammesu. -- M I 98
> > 
> > For my rough translation I've just made a few changes to 
yours as
> > follows:
> > 
> > But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows 
thus: "I
> > am not one of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires." 
then,
> > with rapture and delight, he should abide in profitable states 
by
> > studying day and night.

.....
Qu: we know `Sekha' is the learner or one in need of training, i.e 
not attained arahatship but at least an ariyan (Mulapariyaya sutta 
etc). Is it from the same root of `siksaa'? Like you say, sikkhaa is 
not theoretical training...does it refer in these contexts to ariyan 
`study' or mindfulness only as well? (I know that sometimes it's 
used in connection with sila and samadhi as well as panna --as 
in adhisila sikkha).

Also, Jim, **no hurry at all**, but I'd be grateful anytime if you 
have comments to give on the Pali in the extract in the post on 
DSG Rob and I were discussing - Kesamutti Sutta (Kalama) 
--either here or there:

http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11442.ht
ml

J:> I returned safely to the cottage yesterday morning (Monday). I 
hope to
> post something about the meeting in Niagara Falls to dsg 
within a few
> days. I'm glad I went.

Waiting in anticipation......;-)

Sarah
=====
 
 
579
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:15am
Subject: Re: anumaana sutta

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your two messages, and I compared
with PTS
> dict. These homonyms, difficult. The PTs dict gives: vijahaati
vihaatabba,
> shoud forsake. But doing some vinicchaya: he has not these unskilful
states.
> He should abide in gladness. go on training himself. I prefer:
viharati,
> vihaatabba: he should abide.

I have since found a 'vihaatabba.m' in the Saddaniiti under the
root entry: "730 hara hara.ne." 'hara.na.m' here is explained as
'pavattana.m'.

> Another paralel text: A. III, 307. Let him abide with gladness...
training
> himself. That makes more sense to me.

That's one of the 2 references quoted with 'vihaatabba' under
'vijahati' in PED, the other one being Mil 317 which Horner translates
as 'must abide'. It is clear that these references properly belong to
'viharati'.

Please note that I mispelled 'ahorattaanusikkhinaa' as
'ahorattaanaanusikkhinaa' in the passage I copied earlier.

> The sikkhi I like to translate here: training, not book study.
Moreover, he
> had no books. And it is not theoretical at all. He should go on with
his
> training until he reaches arahatship.

I think 'studying' could include the study of realities besides
scriptural study but it does seem to have its shortcomings. 'training'
is probably better and 'learning' or 'practising' might also be
considered. I think the 'anu' before 'sikkhi(n)' may be similar in
meaning to the one before 'passanaa'. I've hardly looked into it but
'continually' or 'continuously' comes to mind.

The syntax of the Pali passage under discussion is not all that clear
to me.

> > I saw in a message of yours on dsg dated Sept. 5th. that you were
> > asking for the Pali of 'physical virtue'. I still have a big
backlog
> > of unread messages so I don't know yet if anyone else has
responded.
> > The Pali is 'sariiragu.naana.m' (As 97) which could be read as a
> > dvanda compound instead of a kammadhaaraya translated as 'physical
> > virtue'.

> N: I think this question may be from Robert?

Your reply was to Rob M. in which you quoted a passage from the
Expositor and at the end you wrote:
<< I would like the Pali of physical virtue.
I hope this clarifies,
Nina. >>

> J: Around the end of last month there was a discussion on Buddha-L
about
> > how a line of verse in the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta should be
> > translated. Robert Eddison, Lance Cousins, and myself among others
> > were participants. I will post a small part of it here as soon as
I
> > have something prepared.

> N:I am delighted if you can now and then post something from
Buddha-L. Thus,
> Rob Ed is already recovered? As to Lance: long ago he gave me
hospitality
> when A. Sujin came to England. People had questions on nibbana and
> meditation. At breackfast he asked me whether I had all the Pali
prefixes,
> suffixes, etc. Then he dictated me a lot at the breakfast table (his
family
> did not seem to object) and I still kept them. You know my interest
in
> those! You could tell him this, if you like.

I'd be glad to post some of the discussions on Buddha-L on Pali that I
think worth posting to psg but sometimes I turn the mail off from
Buddha-L and may miss some. Actually, I don't think this kind of
discussion comes up too often. I had a few private exchanges with
Lance about 3 years ago. I last wrote to him in January 2001 about the
derivation of 'nimitta'. I also told him I had joined DSG and
mentioned your name and K. Sujin's. I never got a reply to that
message. When I did get replies from him before it would sometimes
take months. I guess he's too busy.

I don't know if Robert Eddison is fully recovered. I usually only see
his postings on Buddha-L and Pali and sometimes from looking in the
D-L archives. On the Pali list, Robert has recently said the following
in response to a message by Rob K.:

"If the members are interested, I should also be willing to start
posting to the list the grammar notes that I made while studying the
Saddaniiti with Sayadaw Dhammananda. The Saddaniiti, by the 13th
century Burmese grammarian Aggava.msa, is considered the most thorough
of the old Pali grammars. Much of its content afaik is not available
in English even in summary form." --dated Sept. 3/02

He also said he'd be willing to copy out ~Naa.namoli's grammatical
glossary (a BPS publication). I will keep you posted but I'd recommend
that you join this list. Compared to DSG it's fairly quiet and many
days often pass by with no new messages. The main theme now is on a
group translation of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta (MN 62).

Best wishes,

Jim


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580
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:12am
Subject: (Sarah) the root of sekha/sikkhaa/"sik.saa

 
    Dear Sarah,

Here is a response to one of your questions. I will respond later to
your questions about the Kesamutta Sutta.

> Qu: we know `Sekha' is the learner or one in need of training, i.e
> not attained arahatship but at least an ariyan (Mulapariyaya sutta
> etc). Is it from the same root of `siksaa'? Like you say, sikkhaa is
> not theoretical training...does it refer in these contexts to ariyan
> `study' or mindfulness only as well? (I know that sometimes it's
> used in connection with sila and samadhi as well as panna --as
> in adhisila sikkha).

The Pali verbal root (dhaatu) of words like sekha, sikkhaa,
anusikkhi(n), etc. is 'sikkh' (82. sikkha vijjopaadaane in the
Dhaatumaala of the Saddaniiti) and the Sanskrit equivalent is "sik.s
("sik.sa vidyopaadaane 1.636; "s = the s with the acute mark above
it). I don't see 'vijjopaadaana' listed in any of my dictionaries and
my guess is that it means the acquiring (upaadaana) of knowledge
(vijjaa) which in my mind could include scriptural learning
(pariyatti) as well as practice (pa.tipatti) both of which are aimed
at the attainment of the higher knowledges (adhigama or pa.tivedha).
At this point I don't know what -anusikkhi(n) really means in the
context of the passage it is found and considerably more investigation
is likely needed such as looking at instances of its usage in other
passages, checking with the commentaries, checking out the suffix, and
so on. This kind of knowledge is hard to come by.

Best wishes,

Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
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581
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: Re: anumaana sutta

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you for the info.
op 16-09-2002 17:15 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> I have since found a 'vihaatabba.m' in the Saddaniiti under the
> root entry: "730 hara hara.ne." 'hara.na.m' here is explained as
> 'pavattana.m'.
N: harana.m: carrying, pavattana.m: existence, moving forward. Comes close
to abide, viharati.
> 
J: That's one of the 2 references quoted with 'vihaatabba' under
> 'vijahati' in PED, the other one being Mil 317 which Horner translates
> as 'must abide'. It is clear that these references properly belong to
> 'viharati'.
> I think 'studying' could include the study of realities besides
> scriptural study but it does seem to have its shortcomings. 'training'
> is probably better and 'learning' or 'practising' might also be
> considered. I think the 'anu' before 'sikkhi(n)' may be similar in
> meaning to the one before 'passanaa'. I've hardly looked into it but
> 'continually' or 'continuously' comes to mind.
N: anu: again and again, I like this anu.

J: I saw in a message of yours on dsg dated Sept. 5th. that you were
>>> asking for the Pali of 'physical virtue'.
>>> The Pali is 'sariiragu.naana.m' (As 97) which could be read as a
>>> dvanda compound instead of a kammadhaaraya translated as 'physical
>>> virtue'.
>N: I had forgotten I wrote this, about taking of life of beings with different
degrees of virtues. <When physical virtues are equal...> sariira: of the
body, but I am not sure about dvanda compound, what is it? But no hurry to
answer this.
With many thanks,
Nina.
 
 
582
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Re: approach to texts and dvanda

 
    Dear Jim,
This is a goood demonstration of the way you work. I like your approach to
the texts very much, the best way, and not always found among Pali scholars.
The checking with other texts you do, your openmindedness for other
interpretations, etc. You go into meanings very deeply. I also like it that
you say that a translation is never really finished. Very realistic. You
keep on considering.
Now this is the reason I am not inclined to go to other Pali lists. What can
that Pali list offer? What is Robert's opinion? I have so little spare time
and besides, I keep on reading Pali anyway.
But writing out a translation is of course another matter.
dvanda compound: I found it in Warder, Ch 15, a twin compound. Thus,
sariiragu.naana.m: concerning virtue and (size of) body. These determine the
degree of the akusala kamma patha of killing. Now it is clear. The second
one of the dvanda is usually the more important one. As in maataapitu: this
should be translated as father and mother.
Best wishes
Nina. 

op 17-09-2002 17:12 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> 
> The Pali verbal root (dhaatu) of words like sekha, sikkhaa,
> anusikkhi(n), etc. is 'sikkh' (82. sikkha vijjopaadaane in the
> Dhaatumaala of the Saddaniiti) and the Sanskrit equivalent is "sik.s
> ("sik.sa vidyopaadaane 1.636; "s = the s with the acute mark above
> it). I don't see 'vijjopaadaana' listed in any of my dictionaries and
> my guess is that it means the acquiring (upaadaana) of knowledge
> (vijjaa) which in my mind could include scriptural learning
> (pariyatti) as well as practice (pa.tipatti) both of which are aimed
> at the attainment of the higher knowledges (adhigama or pa.tivedha).
> At this point I don't know what -anusikkhi(n) really means in the
> context of the passage it is found and considerably more investigation
> is likely needed such as looking at instances of its usage in other
> passages, checking with the commentaries, checking out the suffix, and
> so on. This kind of knowledge is hard to come by.
 
 
583
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 18, 2002 6:09pm
Subject: Re: approach to texts and dvanda

 
    Dear Nina,
I think the other pali list is quite good and not busy. They would
appreciate your help too.
Robert
--- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> This is a goood demonstration of the way you work. I like your approach
> to
> the texts very much, the best way, and not always found among Pali
> scholars.
> The checking with other texts you do, your openmindedness for other
> interpretations, etc. You go into meanings very deeply. I also like it
> that
> you say that a translation is never really finished. Very realistic. You
> keep on considering.
> Now this is the reason I am not inclined to go to other Pali lists. What
> can
> that Pali list offer? What is Robert's opinion? I have so little spare
> time
> and besides, I keep on reading Pali anyway.
> But writing out a translation is of course another matter.
> dvanda compound: I found it in Warder, Ch 15, a twin compound. Thus,
> sariiragu.naana.m: concerning virtue and (size of) body. These determine
> the
> degree of the akusala kamma patha of killing. Now it is clear. The
> second
> one of the dvanda is usually the more important one. As in maataapitu:
> this
> should be translated as father and mother.
> Best wishes
> Nina. 
> 
> op 17-09-2002 17:12 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
> > 
> > The Pali verbal root (dhaatu) of words like sekha, sikkhaa,
> > anusikkhi(n), etc. is 'sikkh' (82. sikkha vijjopaadaane in the
> > Dhaatumaala of the Saddaniiti) and the Sanskrit equivalent is "sik.s
> > ("sik.sa vidyopaadaane 1.636; "s = the s with the acute mark above
> > it). I don't see 'vijjopaadaana' listed in any of my dictionaries and
> > my guess is that it means the acquiring (upaadaana) of knowledge
> > (vijjaa) which in my mind could include scriptural learning
> > (pariyatti) as well as practice (pa.tipatti) both of which are aimed
> > at the attainment of the higher knowledges (adhigama or pa.tivedha).
> > At this point I don't know what -anusikkhi(n) really means in the
> > context of the passage it is found and considerably more investigation
> > is likely needed such as looking at instances of its usage in other
> > passages, checking with the commentaries, checking out the suffix, and
> > so on. This kind of knowledge is hard to come by.
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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584
From: sarahdhhk <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 5:36am
Subject: Re: (Sarah) the root of sekha/sikkhaa/"sik.saa

 
    Dear Jim,
--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> 
wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> Here is a response to one of your questions. I will respond 
later to
> your questions about the Kesamutta Sutta.
....
No hurry, thanks.
.....
dhisila sikkha).
> 
> The Pali verbal root (dhaatu) of words like sekha, sikkhaa,
> anusikkhi(n), etc. is 'sikkh' (82. sikkha vijjopaadaane in the
> Dhaatumaala of the Saddaniiti) and the Sanskrit equivalent is 
"sik.s
> ("sik.sa vidyopaadaane 1.636; "s = the s with the acute mark 
above
> it). 
...
In the Rhys Davids dict I use, it just gives <Vedic sik.sa> and not 
the pali root, I think.
.....
>I don't see 'vijjopaadaana' listed in any of my dictionaries and
> my guess is that it means the acquiring (upaadaana) of 
knowledge
> (vijjaa) which in my mind could include scriptural learning
> (pariyatti) as well as practice (pa.tipatti) both of which are 
aimed
> at the attainment of the higher knowledges (adhigama or 
pa.tivedha).
> At this point I don't know what -anusikkhi(n) really means in the
> context of the passage it is found and considerably more 
investigation
> is likely needed such as looking at instances of its usage in 
other
> passages, checking with the commentaries, checking out the 
suffix, and
> so on. This kind of knowledge is hard to come by.
....
Thanks, Jim. Your notes are always helpful and like Nina, I 
appreciate the way you look at and work on translations.

Nina, I'm also reading about the various kinds of compounds in 
Warder now and was just about to mention the points you just 
found for yourself and the comment about the second half of the 
compound being dominant.

Sarah
======
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
    

 
585
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:43am
Subject: Re: approach to texts and dvanda

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim,
> This is a goood demonstration of the way you work. I like your
approach to
> the texts very much, the best way, and not always found among Pali
scholars.
> The checking with other texts you do, your openmindedness for other
> interpretations, etc. You go into meanings very deeply. I also like
it that
> you say that a translation is never really finished. Very realistic.
You
> keep on considering.

Thank-you for showing your appreciation and the encouragement. I
try to do the best I can.

> Now this is the reason I am not inclined to go to other Pali lists.
What can
> that Pali list offer? What is Robert's opinion? I have so little
spare time
> and besides, I keep on reading Pali anyway.

Understood.

> But writing out a translation is of course another matter.
> dvanda compound: I found it in Warder, Ch 15, a twin compound. Thus,
> sariiragu.naana.m: concerning virtue and (size of) body. These
determine the
> degree of the akusala kamma patha of killing. Now it is clear. The
second
> one of the dvanda is usually the more important one. As in
maataapitu: this
> should be translated as father and mother.
> Best wishes
> Nina.

You did exactly what I did. Look up dvanda in Warder. It's more of a
brief introduction than a full treatment. I also checked Aggavamsa and
Panini and found much more. There are two basic types of dvanda
compounds:

1. itaretarayoga-dvanda: mutual conjunction (in the plural)
2. samaahaara-dvanda: which Warder refers to as the collective noun in
the neuter singular, p.97

Panini's Sanskrit grammar (2.2.32-4) gives a number of rules that
govern the order of words in a Sanksrit dvandva (Skt. spelling).
These are:
32. a word ending in a short i or u goes first (hariharaau);
33. a word beginning with a vowel and ending in 'a' goes first;
34. a word that has fewer vowels is placed first;
and from some of its vartikas:
- a word consisting of only light vowels is placed first;
- the more honourable of the two is placed first (eg.
maataapitarau);
- in a number compound the smaller number is placed first.
For Pali, Aggava.msa gives a quote from the Niruttipit.aka that
includes a rule much like no. 34. In considering word order in a Pali
dvanda one might look to see if any of the above Sanskrit rules apply.
I think Warder is being too simplistic in mentioning the dominant
position (like in a tappurisa) of the second word in some cases. It's
more complicated. It is not clear why 'gu.na' is placed after
'sariira' as it seems to go against all the above rules, especially
no. 34. B. Bodhi translates 'sariiragu.naana.m' in a similar passage
in his translation of the DN 1 commentary: 'the physical body and the
moral qualities' -- The All-Embracing Net of Views, p. 113.

Another point to consider (as explained in the Saddaniti) is that in
the case of an itaretaradvanda ending in a plural like
'sariiragu.naana.m' the grammatical number of each of the words
'sariira' and 'gu.na' can be interpreted as either singular or plural
so there are four possibilities: body and quality; body and qualities;
bodies and quality; or bodies and qualities. You'd have to decide on
which from the context in the passage. B. Bodhi decided on the second
one.

Jim


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586
From: sarahdhhk <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 0:54am
Subject: Re: vihaatabba.m

 
    Dear Jim & Nina,

I don't know if it's any use to you with regard to the 'vi-har' 
discussion (see Jim's post below), but in Warder, lesson 24, 
p239, he has a section on vi-har specifically under a longer 
section on auxiliary verbs (p233f). So vihar can be used as an 
auxiliary like 'as', huu', 'car', thaa', and 'vatt'.

For vi-har, he says it can become even more of a 'pure auxiliary' 
than the others and is used in all tenses. The first example he 
gives is similar to your one here (but not using the should 
construction):

> ime dhammaa upasampajja vihaatabbaa, . . . -- 
Pe.takopadesa p. 208
> 
> which ~Naa.namoli translates as:
> 
> these ideas should be entered upon and abode in, . . . --
> Pi.taka-Disclosure p. 282

Warder:" so....pa.thamajjhaana.m upasampajja viharati..."
-he dwells having entered into the first meditation/he remains in 
the first meditation.

Sarah
=====

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> 
wrote:
> Dear Nina,
> 
> In my previous message when I wrote that 'vihaatabba.m' 
meant 'should
> abide', I had assumed that it was a derivative of vi+har without 
even
> bothering to look it up in the dictionary. Some time later I got to
> thinking about it and realized that it can be a derivative of 
vi+haa
> (abandon, forsake) and thought I had made a mistake and 
Horner was
> right after all. After some checking in PED, I found no 
'vihaatabba'
> under 'viharati' nor a 'haatabba' under 'harati'. However,
> 'vihaatabba' is included under 'vijahati'. I then searched the 
CSCD
> and found the following passage:
> 
> ime dhammaa upasampajja vihaatabbaa, . . . -- 
Pe.takopadesa p. 208
> 
> which ~Naa.namoli translates as:
> 
> these ideas should be entered upon and abode in, . . . --
> Pi.taka-Disclosure p. 282
> 
> Also Geiger in his A Pali Grammar, p. 188, gives the same 
form:
> "vihaatabba (from viharati) M III 294,27 = hartavya." It's derived 
in
> the same way as 'kaatabba' is from kar + tabba. So we have to 
be aware
> that 'vihaatabba' is a homonym which is not at all unusual for 
Pali.
> 
> Best wishes, Jim
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
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587
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: dvanda

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank yopu very much for all the info about dvanda. The difficulty is in
recognizing a dvanda.
Just today I came across one: ka.n.na-naasa.m: ears and nose. Pl and singl.
I saw them many times, not knowing they were dvandas.
As to Pali list: if I have to get the texts to be translated from Internet
or archives, it is an obstacle to me, you know, with my I Mac and lack of
skill. How would I have to subscribe?
Best wishes
from Nina.
 
 
588
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 11:00am
Subject: Re: dvanda

 
    Dear Nina,

> As to Pali list: if I have to get the texts to be translated from
Internet
> or archives, it is an obstacle to me, you know, with my I Mac and
lack of
> skill. How would I have to subscribe?
> Best wishes
> from Nina.

The easiest way to subscribe to the Pali list is just to click on the
following: Pali-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

A blank reply message will pop up with the above email address on the
To: line. Just send it as it is without typing in anything. You will
be automatically subscribed and will shortly receive a welcome message
with some information about the list. To unsubscribe, do exactly the
same thing but use the following email address instead:
Pali-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

The home page is located at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali where
anyone can access the message archives and the files section without
having to sign in. There are currently 232 subscribers. The moderator
is Ong Yong Peng who I think is based in Singapore. I've been a
subscriber for more than a year and have never posted anything but I
enjoy reading the messages. Besides Rob K's, I've seen postings on the
list from Dan, Teng Kee, and Suan. I only know of four Pali lists on
the internet including psg. The two others: palitrans and pali-intro-l
have both been dormant for a long time which makes psg the second most
active of the four lists.

Best wishes,

Jim


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589
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:04pm
Subject: viharati

 
    Dear Sarah,
yes, very interesting, viharati as auxiliary. Instead of he abides or dwells
contemplating body in body, we can translate: he contemplates time and
again, or continuously. like: anu, anu. A durative meaning, I looked it up.
Nina.
 
 
590
From: <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Khun Sujin's book

 
    Hi, Jim:
How are you? Thank you for sending me the book, which
I received a few days ago. Take care, tadao
 
 
591
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 4:18am
Subject: cone dictionary

 
    I just received the margaret cone dictionary from PTS. I might take 
it to Thailand with me for some bedtime reading . Any comments on it?
Robert
 
 
592
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 10:15am
Subject: Re: cone dictionary

 
    Dear Robert,

Glad to hear that you got the new dictionary which I recently got
myself. Perhaps you missed the following comment in a recent psg
message of mine to Nina on Sept. 2:

<< I now have M. Cone's A Dictionary of Pali, Part I, a-kh which I
think is quite a good dictionary and recommended. It is more difficult
to locate entry-words in this dictionary as there are no headers at
the top of the pages. I have prepared an index to make it easier to
locate words. [If anyone would like a copy of this index which can be
printed on one sheet of paper, please send me a request offlist.] >>

Some more comments: Cone's dictionary is similar in layout to the
Critical Pali Dictionary of which I have Vol. I (a) & II (aa-o). Her
dictionary is like an abridged version of the latter. The page
references of the quotes, of course, are to the PTS editions and these
can be looked up in the CSCD for further study. I think that to better
understand a word and its context one might have see the quote in the
text itself. In one of the JPTS issues there is a lecture by M. Cone
on lexicography and her dictionary work that is interesting to read.
Please let us know what you think of the dictionary when you become
more familiar with it. Happy reading!

Best wishes, Jim

> I just received the margaret cone dictionary from PTS. I might take
> it to Thailand with me for some bedtime reading . Any comments on
it?
> Robert



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593
From: robertkirkpatrick.rm <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 9:20pm
Subject: worth learning thai reading?

 
    Dear Jim, Nina , Teng Kee and all,
I am in Thailand for the next few months and was thinking of taking up 
Thai reading classes. Will this be useful for pali? For example does 
Budsir give the thai translations as well as the Pali? 
I need extra incentive to study as living in japan i will forget the thai 
unless I can bring it into my pali studies.
Robert
 
 
594
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:01pm
Subject: Re: worth learning thai reading?

 
    Dear Robert, 
you are in Th. for so short, and the high words and royal words which are
often connected with Pali and which you find in the Co. you will not learn
in a class. I have a lot of trouble with royal words, translating
Perfections and Kom is helping me a lot.
It depends on you, but perhaps it is preferable to concentrate only on Pali?
Nina 

op 13-10-2002 03:20 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op
robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com:

> Dear Jim, Nina , Teng Kee and all,
> I am in Thailand for the next few months and was thinking of taking up
> Thai reading classes. Will this be useful for pali? For example does
> Budsir give the thai translations as well as the Pali?
> I need extra incentive to study as living in japan i will forget the thai
> unless I can bring it into my pali studies.
 
 
595
From: abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org> 
Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:56am
Subject: Re: worth learning thai reading? How About Burmese?

 
    Dear Robert

If you plan to learn another Buddhist language to reinforce your 
knowledge of Pali, then Burmese seems to be a very good candidate.

Reasons for this suggestion are as follows.

1. You will be able to consult the mulit-vulume Tipitaka Pali-Myanmar 
Dictionary, the largest so far in the world with each volume about 
the size of PTS Pali-English dictionary. Each entry comes with its 
grammatical analysis in addition to full discussion of any 
grammatical terms of Pali as entries in their own right. 

2. All the major Tipitaka Pali-texts and their Atthakathaas and 
(Tikaas as well?) are available in Pali-Myanmar Nissaya texts.

A Pali-Myanmar Nissaya text is a textual sentential dictionary. 
Unlike a normal alphabetical dictionary, the meanings of each Pali 
word in a sentence are provided in Burmese side by side within that 
sentence. 

Pali-Myanmar Nissaya texts are not normal translations of original 
texts as we know it. They are more of study aids and intended for the 
convenience of students and teachers of Pali. Grammatical 
discussions, not found even in the grammar texts, are also 
interspersed wherever necessary. Their regular real-life situational 
advice on how to connect parts in convoluted paragraphs in advanced 
Pali texts are priceless and cannot be found in grammar texts.

One of the immediate benefits of having Pali-Myanmar Nissaya texts is 
that they can remove the chore of having to consult a dictionary for 
new words. If you read a Pali text with the aid of its Nissaya text, 
all you need do is syncronize corresponding lines in both texts.

3. Burmese language has only 3 tones. So it has fewer tones than Thai 
or Chinese.

4. Burmese alphabets closely correspond to the Burmese sounds. Once 
you have mastered them and Burmese writing system of combining those 
letters, you have already learnt the language by half.

As soon as you can pronounce the written Burmese, we can understand 
you. When you get used to spoken Burmese, you can adjust later. 

5. Burmese grammar is fairly flexible.

6. Unlike English, each Burmese sound has meaning, so you can create 
your own words by conbining them to convey your meanings. Even if the 
words you thus created are never heard before, we can understand your 
message.

There you have it.

Suan


--- In palistudy@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:


Dear Jim, Nina , Teng Kee and all,
I am in Thailand for the next few months and was thinking of taking 
up 
Thai reading classes. Will this be useful for pali? For example does 
Budsir give the thai translations as well as the Pali? 
I need extra incentive to study as living in japan i will forget the 
thai 
unless I can bring it into my pali studies.
Robert
 
 
596
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Vis. text and word derivations.

 
    Dear Jim and Rob, 
Rob quoted for dsg a text from Vis:
567 VRI Su~n~natekavidhaadiihiiti-ettha su~n~nato taava
paramatthena 
hi sabbaaneva saccaani vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaabhaavato
su~n~naaniiti veditabbaani. Teneta.m vuccati
"Dukkhameva hi, na koci dukkhito;
kaarako na, kiriyaava vijjati;
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa;
maggamatthi, gamako na vijjatii"ti.

Translation from nanamoli xvi 90
...As to void, single fold and so on: firstly, as to void: in the
ultimate sense all the truths should be understood as void because
of the absence of any experiencer, any doer, anyone who is
extinguished and any goer. hence this is said:

For there is suffering, but none who suffers;
Doing exists although there is no doer;
Extinction is but no extinguished person;
Although there is a path there is no goer'""
___________
N: Question: what kind of compound is: vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaabhaavato
It is interesting.
Qu 2: I expected another negation here, after kiriyavaa: kaarako na,
kiriyaava vijjati;
Q. 3: pumaa, pumo is man, why pumaa, is it another word, a sandhi?

Another matter: word derivations. We try so hard to find the meaning, for
example, of apilaapana, not floating away. I have read that some linguists
sometimes frown on Buddhaghosa's word derivations. Is there a discrepancy
between ideas of that time and of our time? But this would not bother me,
because his ideas were to make the meaning of the teachings clearer, not
linguistics. Therefore, I wonder whether we may go too far in finding the
derivation of a word when it is difficult to find. In many instances
derivations really help, they are good, also with regard to linguistics, but
should we not think of the goal in the first place? To me there are limits
to the usefulness of word derivations, or am I wrong here? I think also of
the word associations or, as it is said, word play, of Buddhaghosa. I think
he just had in mind to convey the real meaning of the teachings. Am I
correct here or is it that people are in this time unable to find the
derivation of a certain word and put the blame on Buddhaghosa?
Nina.
 
 
597
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 11:49pm
Subject: Re: Vis. text and word derivations.

 
    Dear members, a new member has recently joined us. Welcome to
the group, Christine! I hope you find it of some help in your studies.

Dear Nina,

N: Question: what kind of compound is: vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaabhaavato
It is interesting.

Jim: It's a cha.t.thitappurisa compound (the cha.t.thi refers to the sixth
or genitive case). This is how I resolve it: vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaana.m
(gen. pl.) abhaavato (because of the absence of . . .). The first part
(vedakakaarakanibbutagamakaana.m) is itself an itaretaradvandva compound and
the 'nibbuta' within it is also a compound (a kammadhaaraya). A compound
itself can contain several compounds.

Nina: Qu 2: I expected another negation here, after kiriyavaa: kaarako na,
kiriyaava vijjati;

Jim: I think it may be okay without a negation. When in doubt it is good to
compare different edns. for accuracy and to check the .tiikaa just to make
sure. If there was a negation there I think 'kiriyaava vijjati' would have
read 'kiriyaa na vijjati'. I can check this out after I return to the
cottage early next week.

Nina: Q. 3: pumaa, pumo is man, why pumaa, is it another word, a sandhi?

Jim: pumaa (not in PED under puman) is the regular nominative sing. form of
the stem 'puman' like 'raajaa' & 'attaa'. pumo comes from a different stem
(puma) and is declined like 'puriso'.

Nina: Another matter: word derivations. We try so hard to find the meaning,
for
example, of apilaapana, not floating away. I have read that some linguists
sometimes frown on Buddhaghosa's word derivations. Is there a discrepancy
between ideas of that time and of our time? But this would not bother me,
because his ideas were to make the meaning of the teachings clearer, not
linguistics. Therefore, I wonder whether we may go too far in finding the
derivation of a word when it is difficult to find. In many instances
derivations really help, they are good, also with regard to linguistics, but
should we not think of the goal in the first place? To me there are limits
to the usefulness of word derivations, or am I wrong here? I think also of
the word associations or, as it is said, word play, of Buddhaghosa. I think
he just had in mind to convey the real meaning of the teachings. Am I
correct here or is it that people are in this time unable to find the
derivation of a certain word and put the blame on Buddhaghosa?
Nina.

Jim: I see the commentaries of Buddhaghosa and suchlike as an indispensable
guide for Pali students, translators, and scholars alike. We'd be much worse
off if it weren't for these commentaries and we should be grateful that they
are still around to help us out. I don't know if we can ever go too far in
finding the right derivation of a word no matter how difficult that may be
since such an investigation might lead to recovering a lost meaning or
clearing up some doubt arising from the different readings. I think it is
very good to examine and verify the reliability of a text or its commentary.
How far one wants to go in this regard is entirely up to the individual. As
to myself, I like to know how Pali words are derived according to the
commentaries and the grammatical treatises and I will go to any length to
find out. There is a lot of valuable linguistic information given in the
commentaries which may not be so obvious at first. The gloss on 'ekaayano'
is a good example of showing the various types of compounds that can be read
into it. Note that ayano interpreted as ayitabbo is similar to the one of
vi~n~na.na (in a passage that some use to show that nibbaana is a mind
state) to vijaanitabba (cognizable).

Best wishes,
Jim


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
598
From: rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:56am
Subject: Re: worth learning thai reading? How About Burmese?

 
    --- 
Dear Nina and Suan,
Thanks for your replies. My rcoketmail account is giving prolems and 
will be closed soon so I now use this address.
I have joined aschool and am taking lessons in thai reading- I 
decided to go ahead as I found out the budsir have a cheap disc that 
has all the texts including commentaries in pali plus Thai 
translations.
Thanks for all the info about burmese Suan. It will be my next step 
if I can get proficient with thai enough to use the dictionaries and 
check a few words in the commentaries(any further may be too much 
work). I can speak a rough version of conversation thai so it is 
worth contiuning I figure. I was also pleased that I could follow the 
talk by Sujin in Thai about the stages of insight - simply because it 
used so many pali words from the Visuddhimagga
I
Once I finish my phd - about march hopefully - I am going to spend my 
time with pali . That is the plan anyway.
robert
In palistudy@y..., "abhidhammika" <suanluzaw@b...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Robert
> 
> If you plan to learn another Buddhist language to reinforce your 
> knowledge of Pali, then Burmese seems to be a very good candidate.
> 
> Reasons for this suggestion are as follows.
> 
> 1. You will be able to consult the mulit-vulume Tipitaka Pali-
Myanmar 
> Dictionary, the largest so far in the world with each volume about 
> the size of PTS Pali-English dictionary. Each entry comes with its 
> grammatical analysis in addition to full discussion of any 
> grammatical terms of Pali as entries in their own right. 
> 
> 2. All the major Tipitaka Pali-texts and their Atthakathaas and 
> (Tikaas as well?) are available in Pali-Myanmar Nissaya texts.
> 
> A Pali-Myanmar Nissaya text is a textual sentential dictionary. 
> Unlike a normal alphabetical dictionary, the meanings of each Pali 
> word in a sentence are provided in Burmese side by side within that 
> sentence. 
> 
> Pali-Myanmar Nissaya texts are not normal translations of original 
> texts as we know it. They are more of study aids and intended for 
the 
> convenience of students and teachers of Pali. Grammatical 
> discussions, not found even in the grammar texts, are also 
> interspersed wherever necessary. Their regular real-life 
situational 
> advice on how to connect parts in convoluted paragraphs in advanced 
> Pali texts are priceless and cannot be found in grammar texts.
> 
> One of the immediate benefits of having Pali-Myanmar Nissaya texts 
is 
> that they can remove the chore of having to consult a dictionary 
for 
> new words. If you read a Pali text with the aid of its Nissaya 
text, 
> all you need do is syncronize corresponding lines in both texts.
> 
> 3. Burmese language has only 3 tones. So it has fewer tones than 
Thai 
> or Chinese.
> 
> 4. Burmese alphabets closely correspond to the Burmese sounds. Once 
> you have mastered them and Burmese writing system of combining 
those 
> letters, you have already learnt the language by half.
> 
> As soon as you can pronounce the written Burmese, we can understand 
> you. When you get used to spoken Burmese, you can adjust later. 
> 
> 5. Burmese grammar is fairly flexible.
> 
> 6. Unlike English, each Burmese sound has meaning, so you can 
create 
> your own words by conbining them to convey your meanings. Even if 
the 
> words you thus created are never heard before, we can understand 
your 
> message.
> 
> There you have it.
> 
> Suan
> 
> 
> --- In palistudy@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
> <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Jim, Nina , Teng Kee and all,
> I am in Thailand for the next few months and was thinking of taking 
> up 
> Thai reading classes. Will this be useful for pali? For example 
does 
> Budsir give the thai translations as well as the Pali? 
> I need extra incentive to study as living in japan i will forget 
the 
> thai 
> unless I can bring it into my pali studies.
> Robert
 
 
599
From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@vtown.com.au> 
Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:16am
Subject: New member

 
    Dear Jim,

Thank you for the welcome - I'm happy to be here. I expect to lurk 
for quite a while. The longer range plan is to combine informal 
learning from self study and groups such as this, with enrolling 
in 'Intro to Pali' which is being offered at Uni. of Queensland next 
year. (or so I was assured today by Dr. Primoz Pecenko.) I tend to 
need the goad of assessment to keep me on track. :) Nice to 'see' 
all the familiar names ...

metta,
Christine
 
 
600
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 8:38am
Subject: Re: New member

 
    ----- Original Message -----
From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@vtown.com.au>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: [palistudy] New member


> Dear Jim,
>
> Thank you for the welcome - I'm happy to be here. I expect to lurk
> for quite a while. The longer range plan is to combine informal
> learning from self study and groups such as this, with enrolling
> in 'Intro to Pali' which is being offered at Uni. of Queensland next
> year. (or so I was assured today by Dr. Primoz Pecenko.) I tend to
> need the goad of assessment to keep me on track. :) Nice to 'see'
> all the familiar names ...
>
> metta,
> Christine
>
>


Dear Christine,

Welcome from another lurking member of the group, I'm sure you will make
great progress in your studies here as well as at the university soon. It's
great to have you here,

Amara
  
601
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 2:52pm
Subject: mahaanaama sutta

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for your explanations. I looked up compounds in Warder.
It is so limited that it is confusing.
I am glad with your ideas about word derivation, that we do not go too far.
I become more distrustful of existing translations now. It would be helpful
if Ven. Soma and Bodhi place dots where they leave out big parts of the
passages. 
I have a problem. I translate material of the Board of the Foundation in
Bgk, and here is the Grad. S, Book of Six, 10 Mahaanaaama: he has won the
fruit, grasped the message, lives his life in abundance. The first part is
more or less as the Thai, but, then comes: he is usually with the vihaara
dhammas. These are the six recollections as explained in this sutta. I would
like to know just this Pali sentence, about vihaara dhammas.
Thank you,
Nina.
 
 
602
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 10:49pm
Subject: Re: mahaanaama sutta

 
    Dear Nina,

Here's the sentence I think you're looking for:

Ekamanta.m nisinno, kho mahaanaamo sakko bhagavanta.m etadavoca- "yo so,
bhante, ariyasaavako aagataphalo vi~n~naatasaasano, so katamena vihaarena
bahula.m viharatii"ti? -- from AN VI.10

"so katamena vihaarena bahula.m viharati" = in (or with/by/through) which
abiding does he live abundantly?

Speaking of compounds, I think 'aagataphalo' & 'vi~n~naatasaasano' are
bahubbiihis. Note how the past participles 'aagata' & 'vi~n~naata' come
first and how the normally neuter phala.m and saasana.m end in -o -- the
nom. sing. masc. ending. There are different subtypes of bahubbiihis and
Warder has several sections on them. I'm still away from my library so I
can't check any further to determine the exact type with the help of the
Saddaniiti but should be back soon (likely Tuesday).

Jim

<<Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for your explanations. I looked up compounds in Warder.
It is so limited that it is confusing.
I am glad with your ideas about word derivation, that we do not go too far.
I become more distrustful of existing translations now. It would be helpful
if Ven. Soma and Bodhi place dots where they leave out big parts of the
passages.
I have a problem. I translate material of the Board of the Foundation in
Bgk, and here is the Grad. S, Book of Six, 10 Mahaanaaama: he has won the
fruit, grasped the message, lives his life in abundance. The first part is
more or less as the Thai, but, then comes: he is usually with the vihaara
dhammas. These are the six recollections as explained in this sutta. I would
like to know just this Pali sentence, about vihaara dhammas.
Thank you,
Nina.>>

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
603
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:02pm
Subject: Re: New member

 
    Dear Christine,

Thanks for introducing yourself. I'm familiar with the name Dr. Primoz
Pecenko as he is the editor of a superb series of volumes on Sariputta's
Anguttaranikaaya-.tiikaa published by the PTS and has an article on
Sariputta and his works in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, Vol. XXIII.
I believe Jou Smith on another Pali list is a student of his.

Best wishes,
Jim

> Dear Jim,
>
> Thank you for the welcome - I'm happy to be here. I expect to lurk
> for quite a while. The longer range plan is to combine informal
> learning from self study and groups such as this, with enrolling
> in 'Intro to Pali' which is being offered at Uni. of Queensland next
> year. (or so I was assured today by Dr. Primoz Pecenko.) I tend to
> need the goad of assessment to keep me on track. :) Nice to 'see'
> all the familiar names ...
>
> metta,
> Christine


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
604
From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@vtown.com.au> 
Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:01pm
Subject: Re: New member

 
    Hi Jim, and Amara,

Amara, thanks for your welcome - :)

Jim, I have met Primoz a couple of times in a samatha-vipassana 
meditation group I attended. (Not realising until I read your post of 
his distinguished academic achievements). He is a friend and 
colleague of my first teacher Patrick Kearney (now guiding teacher at 
the Blue Mountains Insight Meditation Centre). 
I have met Jou once or twice a few years back, and had contact on a 
local list we both belonged to at one point - he is well-known in 
Buddhist circles in the Brisbane area. Jou was a monk for 6 years and 
has written occasionally about his rather unique perspective of 
Buddhism. I believe Primoz will be having a very interesting 
time. ;-)
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/aboutme/

metta,
Christine

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Christine,
> 
> Thanks for introducing yourself. I'm familiar with the name Dr. 
Primoz
> Pecenko as he is the editor of a superb series of volumes on 
Sariputta's
> Anguttaranikaaya-.tiikaa published by the PTS and has an article on
> Sariputta and his works in the Journal of the Pali Text Society, 
Vol. XXIII.
> I believe Jou Smith on another Pali list is a student of his.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> > Dear Jim,
> >
> > Thank you for the welcome - I'm happy to be here. I expect to 
lurk
> > for quite a while. The longer range plan is to combine informal
> > learning from self study and groups such as this, with enrolling
> > in 'Intro to Pali' which is being offered at Uni. of Queensland 
next
> > year. (or so I was assured today by Dr. Primoz Pecenko.) I tend 
to
> > need the goad of assessment to keep me on track. :) Nice to 'see'
> > all the familiar names ...
> >
> > metta,
> > Christine
> 
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________

> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
605
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: Re: mahaanaama sutta

 
    Dear Jim, thank you very much for all the info. The PTs transl was not too
bad after all. 
I also liked your post to Larry about meditation leading to arahatship.
The o ending in bahubbiihii does not surprise me, I see it as an attribute,
right?
Nina. 

op 20-10-2002 04:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
Ekamanta.m nisinno, kho mahaanaamo sakko bhagavanta.m etadavoca- "yo so,
> bhante, ariyasaavako aagataphalo vi~n~naatasaasano, so katamena vihaarena
> bahula.m viharatii"ti? -- from AN VI.10
> 
> "so katamena vihaarena bahula.m viharati" = in (or with/by/through) which
> abiding does he live abundantly?
> 
> Speaking of compounds, I think 'aagataphalo' & 'vi~n~naatasaasano' are
> bahubbiihis.
 
 
606
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:00pm
Subject: the parrot

 
    Dear Jim, I looked at the young parrot story:what is ayyeti?
and: sajjhaaya.m: a causative?
Nina
 
 
607
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 9:52pm
Subject: Re: the parrot

 
    Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim, I looked at the young parrot story:what is ayyeti?
> and: sajjhaaya.m: a causative?
> Nina

ayyeti is ayye ti (ayye iti). ayye is the fem. voc. of ayya (s.v. PED)
meaning 'my lady'.

As far as I know, sajjhaaya.m is not a causative. The derivation is:
sa (own) + adhi (prefix) + i (root) + a (a primary affix). The PED has
"sajjhaaya.m karoti -- to study" under 'sajjhaaya'. To me, the 'sa'
(own) is suggestive of studying on one's own or self-study.

Jim


______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
608
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 9:52am
Subject: Parrot

 
    Dear Jim, 
some difficult points:
aavuso , pabbajitaana.m santike vasantena naama vissa.t.thaattabhaavena
bhavitu.m na va.t.tati, kocideva manasikaaro icchitabbo,

this one: vissa.t.thaattabhaavena bhavitu.m: set free or got rid of:
abhaavena bhavitum:?

ta.m ekadivasa.m paatova tora.nagge
paatova: a fall or a throw? and the va? He was sitting on the top of a
gateway..

nisiiditvaa baalaatapa.m tapamaana.m eko saku.no nakhapa~njarena aggahesi.
so ``kiri kirii''ti saddamakaasi. saama.neriyo sutvaa ``ayye buddharakkhito
saku.nena gahito, 

mocema na''nti : we do not free him?

na ayye a~n~na.m cintesi.m, ``a.t.thipu~njova a.t.thipu~nja.m
the va particle: heap of bones or heap of bones?

gahetvaa gacchati, katarasmimpi .thaane vippakirissatii''ti eva.m ayye
a.t.thipu~njameva cintesinti.

katarasmimpi .thaane vippakirissatii''ti: in which of the two places he will
destroy? 

These were the main trouble spots,
thank you,
Nina.
 
 
609
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 0:58pm
Subject: moderation in food

 
    Dear Jim, thank you for the offer to look now and then.
mata~n~nutaa ca bhattasmi? What is the ending, is it -mi? I translate from
Thai Pali. Bhatta is food.
Bird story: sakuna must be the mean the bird which attacks. pato: can it be
a dive? diving on the poor parrot? baalaatapa.m tapamaana.m: could that be
the parrot who was shining with austerity (because of rehearsing a.t.thi)?
Only a guess.
Thank you,
Nina.
 
 
610
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 9:34pm
Subject: Re: Parrot

 
    Dear Nina,
In a message dated October 27, you wrote:

> Dear Jim,
> some difficult points:
> aavuso , pabbajitaana.m santike vasantena naama vissa.t.thaattabhaavena
> bhavitu.m na va.t.tati, kocideva manasikaaro icchitabbo,
>
> this one: vissa.t.thaattabhaavena bhavitu.m: set free or got rid of:
> abhaavena bhavitum:?

There is no 'abhaavena' -- it's 'attabhaavena' (self-existence). I will skip
this passage for now and get back to you later after I study it in more
detail. The subco. has something on "vissa.t.tha-attabhaavena" as follows:

<< vissa.t.thaattabhaavanaati aniccaadivasena kismi~nci yonisomanasikaare
citta.m aniyojetvaa ruupaadiaaramma.ne abhirativasena vissa.t.thacittena
bhavitu.m na va.t.tati, pamaadavihaara.m pahaaya appamattena bhavitabbanti
adhippaayo. >>

Note how the -attabhaavena is replaced by -cittena.

> ta.m ekadivasa.m paatova tora.nagge
> paatova: a fall or a throw? and the va? He was sitting on the top of a
> gateway..

I found paatova (paato eva) in both the PED (under paatar) and Buddhadatta's
dictionary and both give "right early" as the meaning. I thought of "very
early" as a possibility. Paato is a particle and not the masc. noun paato.

> nisiiditvaa baalaatapa.m tapamaana.m eko saku.no nakhapa~njarena aggahesi.

The whole sentence is:

ta.m ekadivasa.m paatova tora.nagge nisiiditvaa baalaatapa.m tapamaana.m eko
saku.no nakhapa~njarena aggahesi.

My analysis:

ta.m (him -- the parrot) ekadivasa.m (one day) paatova (very early)
tora.nagge (loc. on top of the gateway) nisiiditvaa (having perched)
baalaatapa.m (the morning sunshine) tappamaana.m (enjoying) eko (a) saku.no
(bird) nakhapa~njarena (in a cage of talons/claws) aggahesi (took or
seized).

Loosely translated:
Very early one day when he (the parrot) had perched on top of the gateway
and was enjoying the morning sunshine, a (predatory) bird seized him by the
talons.

Notes:
1. 'baalaatapa.m tappamaana.m' was the most difficult part for me to
understand. I think the Burmese spelling tapamaana.m is not right. The PTS
ed. has 'tappamaana.m' which I think is correct. I derive it from the root
tapa (pii.nane) of the divaadi class of verbal roots. It shares a meaning
with 'piiti' (joy, bliss).

2. 'baalaatapa.m' the accusative object of tappamaa.na.m which is also in
the accusative is the heat of the newly-arisen sun as understood in a
subcommentarial gloss on the same word in another passage:

baalaatapeti abhinavuggatasuriyaatape. -- abhinava.tiikaa on Sv.

3. My search for other instances of 'baalaatapa.m tappamaana.m' in other
passages led me to a very interesting one at Sv III 846 near the beginning
of the commentary on the Cakkavatti Sutta (DN XXVI) which recounts a Jataka
story on the quail and the falcon (Saku.nagghi-jaataka.m, no. 168).

> so ``kiri kirii''ti saddamakaasi. saama.neriyo sutvaa ``ayye
buddharakkhito
> saku.nena gahito,
>
> mocema na''nti : we do not free him?

Wrong, there is no 'na'. I don't understand the placement of the double
quote before the second n in na"nti (which seems to be the norm on
the CSCD disk) instead of after as in nan"ti. The "n here is not the same as
the guttural n. I read the line as 'mocema nan ti'. I take 'mocema' to be in
the imperative and 'na.m' (him) to be in the accusative case, hence: "let us
set him free."

> na ayye a~n~na.m cintesi.m, ``a.t.thipu~njova a.t.thipu~nja.m
> the va particle: heap of bones or heap of bones?

I think the particle 'va' is just 'eva' (just, only) with sandhi elision of
'e' not 'vaa' (or) as you have taken it here.

> gahetvaa gacchati, katarasmimpi .thaane vippakirissatii''ti eva.m ayye
> a.t.thipu~njameva cintesinti.
>
> katarasmimpi .thaane vippakirissatii''ti: in which of the two places he
> will destroy?

My quick translation: Just a heap of bones (those of the predatory bird)
goes taking a heap of bones (the parrot's); in which place will it (the
predator's heap of bones) scatter it (the parrot's) about?

In your latest message you wrote:
<< mata~n~nutaa ca bhattasmi? What is the ending, is it -mi? I translate
from Thai Pali. Bhatta is food.>>

I think bhattasmi is lacking the .m at the end. I'm sure it should have the
locative singular ending -smi.m. I would translate the whole phrase as
"moderation in food".

Best wishes,
Jim

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 
 
611
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 1:02pm
Subject: Re: bhikkhu

 
    Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for all the answers which I shall study. Only, divaadi,
I found third conjugation, which did not fit.
I am trying now to translate for dsg the subco bhikkhu passage. I found it
helpful to also look at the co passage, it solved some riddles.
These compounds are beauties:
satthu cariyaanuvidhaayakattaa sakalasaasanasampa.tiggaahakattaa ca
sabbappakaaraaya anusaasaniyaa bhaajanabhaavo.

Ven. Soma translates anusaasaniyaa bhaajanabhaavoto as: owing to fitness for
receiving....This bhaajana: I find: distributing, he holds and distributes
the teachings? 
anuvidhaa: conforming to, following? Kattaa is doer. This sentence is the
most difficult. 

I hope the getting of water will still be possible, soon everything will be
frozen. We like country life. Your basics: ka.t.thodaka.m!
Best wishes and much appreciation,
Nina. 
P.S. I got as far as this, but I realize, correcting all this is too much.

bhikkhugocaraa ete dhammaa, yadida.m
kaayaanupassanaadayo.
N: These dhammas are the field (object) of the bhikkhu, namely,
contemplation of the Body, etc.

tattha yasmaa kaayaanupassanaadipa.tipattiyaa bhikkhu
hoti, tasmaa ``kaayaanupassii viharatii''tiaadinaa bhikkhu.m dasseti,
bhikkhumhi ta.m niyamatoti aaha ``pa.tipattiyaa bhikkhubhaavadassanato''ti.

N: Here, in as far as he is a bhikkhu by the practice of contemplation of
the Body, etc., therefore, with the words, "he abides in contemplation of
the body", etc., he shows him as a bhikkhu. Then, he says bhikkhu with this
definition, saying, "because of the excellence of the bhikkhu state by way
of practice". 

satthu cariyaanuvidhaayakattaa sakalasaasanasampa.tiggaahakattaa ca
sabbappakaaraaya anusaasaniyaa bhaajanabhaavo.

N: Since he follows the practice of the Teacher, and accepts the entire
dispensation, he is fit to receive manifold instruction.

sama.m careyyaati kaayaadivisamacariya.m pahaaya kaayaadiihi sama.m careyya.

N: He should practise with calm (evenly), this means, after he has abandoned
contrarious behaviour through the body etc., he should practise with calm
through the body, etc.

raagaadivuupasamena santo. indriyadamena danto. catumagganiyaamena niyato.
N: He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc,. He is tamed
by the restraint of the faculties. He is assured by way of the four Paths.

se.t.thacaritaaya brahmacaarii. kaayada.n.daadioropanena nidhaaya da.n.da.m.

N: By the best practice he is a person leading the divine life. Because of
laying down (abandoning) violence through the body, etc. he is peaceful
(having laid down the stick).

ariyabhaave .thito so evaruupo baahitapaapasamitapaapabhinnakilesataahi
braahma.no sama.no bhikkhuuti veditabbo.

Immovable in the ariyan nature, since akusala is removed and calmed and
defilements eradicated, he should in this way be known as a brahmin, a
recluse.
 
[end of year 2002]