Source:
The Pali Study Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/messages)

Year 2001: Messages 2-440 (434); February 2 - November 23, 2001
[Deleted messages: 1, 63, 75, 174, 190, 297]

2
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:03pm
Subject: test
testing palistudy
 
3
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:41am
Subject: Good to be here
Thank you Jim for founding this group and giving us the extraordinary 
opportunity to study the Lord Buddha's words just as he spoke them. I 
studied Pali briefly with Peter Masefield, in Sydney about 8 years 
back; I'm afraid he was not pleased with my progress. I hope to do a 
little better here.
Kind regards
Robert
 
4
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:56pm
Subject: Introduction
Dear all,

I was waiting for all invited members to join this group before
writing my first message to you. First of all, thank-you for joining!
We are starting with a small group of six members: Kom, Robert, Jaran,
Sarah, Jonothan, and myself. I have never set up an email discussion
group before and so it is quite a new thing for me to be a list owner
and moderator which comes with some added responsibilities. As you
probably know I have set the group up as one that is unlisted and
closed which I felt was the best option for this kind of a group. When
I chose the closed option, I was warned that I would not be able to
later change this to one of the other two options: open or restricted.
If there is anyone else you think should be invited to join us at this
time just let me know -- on or off list. I will not be making any
official announcement on dsg until later on when the time seems right
for it.

Since this group has only just started, I think some discussion is in
order on how we're going to go about studying Pali as a group. I'll
tell you some of my ideas which you can comment on or suggest other
ideas, if you like. For learning Pali there are some on-line books
that one might be interested in downloading, in particular, Narada's
primer, Duroiselle's grammar, and Buddhadatta's Pali-English
dictionary. I'm planning to create a page with links to on-line Pali
learning resources including where you can download these books. The
primer that I started with back in 1976 was Warder's Introduction to
Pali (Jaran tells me he has a copy) and found it to be quite good. For
this group, I thought it would be best to work with whatever is at
hand and to draw on many sources of learning Pali. I have a special
interest in working with native Pali grammars such as the Saddaniiti
(12th cent.) along with Panini's Astadhyayi. It is very interesting to
study an Indian language in terms of the old Indian system of language
description and it is my hope to share this with you.

In this group you're quite at liberty to do whatever you find is
appropriate to your situation. You will not be required to do any
homework, download material, buy books, or whatever. It's entirely up
to you on how involved you want to be.

I thought we could start by learning the alphabet of 41 letters and
their pronunciation. We could soon start working on simple short
texts from the Tipitaka. There are many very short suttas in SN & AN
that I don't think would be too hard for the beginner to work on --
with some help. We could also try working on short abhidhamma passages
and perhaps alternate between the two kinds of texts. I think my idea
is just to experiment with different approaches and see what works
best.

Any comments or suggestions?

Best wishes,
Jim
 
5
From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:02am
Subject: Re: Introduction
Jim

Congratulations on setting up this group and many
thanks for inviting me to join.   I'm sure the propoer
study of Pali will prove very useful to our dhamma
studies.

I don't have any strong views on how to proceed. I'm
glad to see that there will be no compulsory homework,
books etc, but a little concerned that you haven't
said no exams - can I take this as agreed?!!

Looking forward to lesson 1.

Jon


--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear all,
> 
> I was waiting for all invited members to join this
> group before
> writing my first message to you. First of all,
> thank-you for joining!
> We are starting with a small group of six members:
> Kom, Robert, Jaran,
> Sarah, Jonothan, and myself. I have never set up an
> email discussion
> group before and so it is quite a new thing for me
> to be a list owner
> and moderator which comes with some added
> responsibilities. As you
> probably know I have set the group up as one that is
> unlisted and
> closed which I felt was the best option for this
> kind of a group. When
> I chose the closed option, I was warned that I would
> not be able to
> later change this to one of the other two options:
> open or restricted.
> If there is anyone else you think should be invited
> to join us at this
> time just let me know -- on or off list. I will not
> be making any
> official announcement on dsg until later on when the
> time seems right
> for it.
> 
> Since this group has only just started, I think some
> discussion is in
> order on how we're going to go about studying Pali
> as a group. I'll
> tell you some of my ideas which you can comment on
> or suggest other
> ideas, if you like. For learning Pali there are some
> on-line books
> that one might be interested in downloading, in
> particular, Narada's
> primer, Duroiselle's grammar, and Buddhadatta's
> Pali-English
> dictionary. I'm planning to create a page with links
> to on-line Pali
> learning resources including where you can download
> these books. The
> primer that I started with back in 1976 was Warder's
> Introduction to
> Pali (Jaran tells me he has a copy) and found it to
> be quite good. For
> this group, I thought it would be best to work with
> whatever is at
> hand and to draw on many sources of learning Pali. I
> have a special
> interest in working with native Pali grammars such
> as the Saddaniiti
> (12th cent.) along with Panini's Astadhyayi. It is
> very interesting to
> study an Indian language in terms of the old Indian
> system of language
> description and it is my hope to share this with
> you.
> 
> In this group you're quite at liberty to do whatever
> you find is
> appropriate to your situation. You will not be
> required to do any
> homework, download material, buy books, or whatever.
> It's entirely up
> to you on how involved you want to be.
> 
> I thought we could start by learning the alphabet of
> 41 letters and
> their pronunciation. We could soon start working on
> simple short
> texts from the Tipitaka. There are many very short
> suttas in SN & AN
> that I don't think would be too hard for the
> beginner to work on --
> with some help. We could also try working on short
> abhidhamma passages
> and perhaps alternate between the two kinds of
> texts. I think my idea
> is just to experiment with different approaches and
> see what works
> best.
> 
> Any comments or suggestions?
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 


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6
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:52am
Subject: Re: Introduction
Jim,
I thought your ideas for teaching were excellent. I like the
idea of learning based on an ancient grammar text. Warders book
is ok but this sounds better, or at least tanha thinks so.
Actually, Jon, exams might give us some motivation? no homework
is good though.
Robert
--- Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
> Jim
> 
> Congratulations on setting up this group and many
> thanks for inviting me to join.   I'm sure the propoer
> study of Pali will prove very useful to our dhamma
> studies.
> 
> I don't have any strong views on how to proceed. I'm
> glad to see that there will be no compulsory homework,
> books etc, but a little concerned that you haven't
> said no exams - can I take this as agreed?!!
> 
> Looking forward to lesson 1.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> --- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear all,
> > 
> > I was waiting for all invited members to join this
> > group before
> > writing my first message to you. First of all,
> > thank-you for joining!
> > We are starting with a small group of six members:
> > Kom, Robert, Jaran,
> > Sarah, Jonothan, and myself. I have never set up an
> > email discussion
> > group before and so it is quite a new thing for me
> > to be a list owner
> > and moderator which comes with some added
> > responsibilities. As you
> > probably know I have set the group up as one that is
> > unlisted and
> > closed which I felt was the best option for this
> > kind of a group. When
> > I chose the closed option, I was warned that I would
> > not be able to
> > later change this to one of the other two options:
> > open or restricted.
> > If there is anyone else you think should be invited
> > to join us at this
> > time just let me know -- on or off list. I will not
> > be making any
> > official announcement on dsg until later on when the
> > time seems right
> > for it.
> > 
> > Since this group has only just started, I think some
> > discussion is in
> > order on how we're going to go about studying Pali
> > as a group. I'll
> > tell you some of my ideas which you can comment on
> > or suggest other
> > ideas, if you like. For learning Pali there are some
> > on-line books
> > that one might be interested in downloading, in
> > particular, Narada's
> > primer, Duroiselle's grammar, and Buddhadatta's
> > Pali-English
> > dictionary. I'm planning to create a page with links
> > to on-line Pali
> > learning resources including where you can download
> > these books. The
> > primer that I started with back in 1976 was Warder's
> > Introduction to
> > Pali (Jaran tells me he has a copy) and found it to
> > be quite good. For
> > this group, I thought it would be best to work with
> > whatever is at
> > hand and to draw on many sources of learning Pali. I
> > have a special
> > interest in working with native Pali grammars such
> > as the Saddaniiti
> > (12th cent.) along with Panini's Astadhyayi. It is
> > very interesting to
> > study an Indian language in terms of the old Indian
> > system of language
> > description and it is my hope to share this with
> > you.
> > 
> > In this group you're quite at liberty to do whatever
> > you find is
> > appropriate to your situation. You will not be
> > required to do any
> > homework, download material, buy books, or whatever.
> > It's entirely up
> > to you on how involved you want to be.
> > 
> > I thought we could start by learning the alphabet of
> > 41 letters and
> > their pronunciation. We could soon start working on
> > simple short
> > texts from the Tipitaka. There are many very short
> > suttas in SN & AN
> > that I don't think would be too hard for the
> > beginner to work on --
> > with some help. We could also try working on short
> > abhidhamma passages
> > and perhaps alternate between the two kinds of
> > texts. I think my idea
> > is just to experiment with different approaches and
> > see what works
> > best.
> > 
> > Any comments or suggestions?
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at
> http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
> 


__________________________________________________
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7
From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@alum.mit.edu> 
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:40am
Subject: RE: Introduction
Dear Jim,

> -----Original Message-----
> ideas, if you like. For learning Pali there are
> some on-line books
> that one might be interested in downloading, in
> particular, Narada's
> primer, Duroiselle's grammar, and Buddhadatta's
> Pali-English
> dictionary. I'm planning to create a page with
> links to on-line Pali
> learning resources including where you can
> download these books. The
> primer that I started with back in 1976 was
> Warder's Introduction to
> Pali (Jaran tells me he has a copy) and found it
> to be quite good. For

I think this is an excellent idea.  On yahoogroups, it is
also possible to add "bookmarks" to the group allowing you
to  create links to different website
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/links).  Unless you
are planning to create a home page, this may be an easier
way to go.

kom
 
8
From: jaranoh@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 0:24pm
Subject: Re: Introduction
Hi Jim and All:

Thank you for the info about on-line text and document.

For those how don't know the web site, it is shown below.

http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/

Kom, you can share the copy of Warder's with me while you wait for 
yours. Not that I don't like to share, but I think it's better to 
have your own copy. You can find a copy at the web site below.

http://www.pariyatti.com/books/0-86013-197-1.html

Introduction to Pali
by A.K. Warder

A university level textbook of lessons in Pali. Material for the 
exercises and reading passages are drawn from the Pali canon.

Price: $14.00
Paperback, 475 pages
Published by Pali Text Society
Publication date: 1991
ISBN 0-86013-197-1 

Can't wait...
Jaran
 
9
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 11:06pm
Subject: Re: Introduction
Dear all,

This is one of these days where I found myself responding to many
messages (8) that arrived in one day. In order not to clutter up the
archives, I'm responding to all of your messages addressed to me here
in this one message. Robert, Kom, Jaran, see below for my responses to
your messages. Usually I find writing one or two responses a day is
enough for me. I'm a slow thinker and writer so please have patience
with me and do not expect prompt replies or lessons right away.

Jon wrote:
>I don't have any strong views on how to proceed. I'm
>glad to see that there will be no compulsory homework,
>books etc, but a little concerned that you haven't
>said no exams - can I take this as agreed?!!

Sorry Jon for not mentioning that there will be no tests or exams.
However, the messages you and others post here will be under close
scrutiny for Pali mistakes.

Robert wrote:
>Jim,
>I thought your ideas for teaching were excellent. I like the
>idea of learning based on an ancient grammar text. Warders book
>is ok but this sounds better, or at least tanha thinks so.
>Actually, Jon, exams might give us some motivation? no homework
>is good though.
>Robert

Thanks Robert for your recent responses including this one. Warder's
Introduction to Pali draws much on the ancient grammatical system
since he uses the same technical terms. You will notice in the
bibliography his high regard for the Saddaniiti when he states: "The
finest and most comprehensive grammar, and standard authority on all
questions of grammatical analysis (usually followed in this book). --
p.382. This same Saddaniiti will be one of the standards I will be
using for my Pali notes to the group. It's great to know that you
studied (however briefly) under P. Masefield. BTW, do you have a copy
of Warder's book? I believe you have the PTS Pali-English dictionary.

Kom wrote:
>I think this is an excellent idea.  On yahoogroups, it is
>also possible to add "bookmarks" to the group allowing you
>to  create links to different website
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/links).  Unless you
>are planning to create a home page, this may be an easier
>way to go.

Thanks, Kom. I will check this out. The palistudy/links sounds like
the perfect place for such a page.

Jaran wrote:
>Hi Jim and All:
>
>Thank you for the info about on-line text and document.
>
>For those how don't know the web site, it is shown below.
>
>http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/
>

Thanks, Jaran. I'll include this website on the links page. I wasn't
suggesting that everybody get a copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali.
But since a few of us will have a copy we can make good use of it.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
10
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 0:49am
Subject: Re: Introduction
Jim,

Thanks for offering this service. As I said privately,
please don't expect us to keep up with the bright
young brains of the lads ...!

Now I had a heavily marked up copy of Warder from
those evening classes I mentioned in the 70s, when I'd
make my way across London after a long day of teaching
in a psychiatric centre to try and learn a little
pali. I was usually so tired and did so little
homework that very little went in! After that, Warder
sat untouched for 20yrs on our bookshelves as we moved
maybe 30 times..and then at the last move last year,
out it went!

We can happily get another copy if we're going to
refer to it often and it makes yr job easier. pls
advise as it takes time for delivery...

A slow pace will suit us well....

Rob, if you ask for exams, I'll have to ask you to
post me the answers in advance to avoid
embarrassment..!

Jim, i've already mentioned the big blue dict. kindly
donated to the cause by PTS & the old Childers one is
now in J's office.

Sarah




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11
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:23pm
Subject: Re: Introduction
Dear Sarah,

Welcome to the group! It's good to have you with us. I take it that
things worked out okay with the corrected email address you sent me.

>Jim,
>
>Thanks for offering this service. As I said privately,
>please don't expect us to keep up with the bright
>young brains of the lads ...!

I don't think you'll have much difficulty keeping up with my
half-bright middle-aged brain.

>Now I had a heavily marked up copy of Warder from
>those evening classes I mentioned in the 70s, when I'd
>make my way across London after a long day of teaching
>in a psychiatric centre to try and learn a little
>pali. I was usually so tired and did so little
>homework that very little went in! After that, Warder
>sat untouched for 20yrs on our bookshelves as we moved
>maybe 30 times..and then at the last move last year,
>out it went!
>
>We can happily get another copy if we're going to
>refer to it often and it makes yr job easier. pls
>advise as it takes time for delivery...

I'm not sure if having a copy would make my job any easier. I have
left it up to the individual to decide on whether or not to buy books
that help one in learning Pali. However, I think it would make the job
of learning Pali a little easier if one has some easily accessible
books to look things up such as paradigms for declensions or
conjugations, etc. There are three kinds of books that seem useful: a
primer, a grammar, and a dictionary. There does not seem to be many
available titles to choose from in the market place though.

Instead of sending away for Warder's book you could hold off for
awhile & see whether or not you can get by without it as the posts to
the list may be enough for you to increase your knowledge of Pali at
the slow pace you desire. And you can always ask questions. My plan is
to write useful Pali notes to post here and collect them together into
files made available to members for reference.

To the group: I will soon be posting the traditional Pali alphabet of
41 letters.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
12
From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:59am
Subject: Re: Introduction
Jim

A question on a related matter.

> To the group: I will soon be posting the traditional
> Pali alphabet of
> 41 letters.

What fonts are available for creating letters with
diacritical marks?  And do they come in Macintosh
versions also?

Jon

_______________________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
13
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Introduction - fonts
Jon,

>Jim
>
>A question on a related matter.
>
>> To the group: I will soon be posting the traditional
>> Pali alphabet of
>> 41 letters.
>
>What fonts are available for creating letters with
>diacritical marks?  And do they come in Macintosh
>versions also?

There are many fonts available on-line of which I only know a few. I
have also seen versions for the Macintosh. A problem with these fonts
is the lack of a universal standard in the character encoding for the
special 8-bit characters in the 128-255 dec range. A standard does
exist called csx or csx+ but many of the available fonts do not follow
this standard. I'm not all that familiar with font issues but I know
that a universal standard (unicode or UTF-8) exists for Roman Indic
characters that use many more bits such as 16-, 24-, or even higher
(not sure).

To download a csx+ font for the PC or Macintosh try the following
link:
http://www.dharmanet.org/~ratthapala/

For more information and links to other fonts try:
Fonts and Encodings for Pali:
http://www.fsnow.com/pali/fonts/

There is also a utilility for converting from one encoding to another.
The one I'm thinking of is the one where you can write Pali using the
email style: like pa~n~naa and then using the utility programm to
convert this into an encoding with the diacritics in the usual
position such as in a csx+ font. I don't have this program and
apparently it is temporarily unavailable online as the creator is
having problems with his webpage.

Two standards are acceptable for writing Pali in messages to this
group: the main one is the one I use on dsg and which is also used by
the Pali Text Society and Buddhist academics on Buddha-L eg. pa~n~naa.
The other one without the diacritics is acceptable within English
parts of messages such as what you and Sarah use on dsg. I would try
to avoid the style using the alt+xxx numeric keys for the characters
in the 128-255 range as I don't think they show up correctly on all
computers.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
14
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:07pm
Subject: the 41 sounds
Dear group,

The first sutta of the Saddaniiti states:

1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.

1. The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' are (called) va.n.na-s.

The vutti comments:

The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' in the word (paavacana) of the
Blessed One are called va.n.na-s as follows:

a aa i ii u uu e o ka kha ga gha "na ca cha ja jha ~na .ta .tha .da
.dha .na ta tha da dha na pa pha ba bha ma ya ra la va sa ha .la a.m

2. akkharaa ca te.

2. These (sounds) are also (called) akkhara-s.

=========================

There's still more to come. Here are some thoughts that came up while
I was pondering over the first sutta. At first I was going to call the
set of 41 sounds 'the alphabet' as that is what Warder, Narada, &
Buddhadatta calls it in the introductory pages of their primers (but
note that the consonants are listed without the accompanying 'a' as
above). I wondered about this word 'alphabet' and felt that it had
more to do with the graphic symbols used to represent the sounds
rather than simply presenting a set of sounds (phonemes) used for a
particular language. If one considers the English alphabet, many of
the individual letters can have several pronunciations such as the
simple vowels, 'c' (= s, k, sh), and so on. Although the English
alphabet has only 26 letters the set of phonemes used in the language
is far greater. One table shows English as having 24 consonantal and
25 vowel sounds.

The most important Pali grammars that follow the old Indian system
are:

1. Kaccaayanavyaakara.na by Kaccaayana
2. Saddaniiti by Aggava.msa (12th cent. Burma)
3. Moggallaanavyaakara.na by Moggallaana

I'm not sure of the dating of the 1st and 3rd but I know that the
first is the oldest. There are also many other grammatical texts based
on these three. AFAIK, nothing has been translated into English -- so
if you want to study them you have to read them in Pali. They are
available on-line for downloading. The one I have studied the most is
the Saddaniiti which is the largest one with 928pp. in 3 vols. for the
edition I use. The last volume (not online) is called the Suttamaala
(garland of aphorisms). There are 1347 suttas, usually short, like the
ones given at the top of this message and most of them are followed by
explanations. The first 23 suttas deal with the sound system of Pali
and I would like to present these to you. Warder's section on the
alphabet is based on them but he does deviate on a number of points.
What I have given so far is just the set of 41 sounds. The
classification of the sounds comes next. Kaccaayana and Aggava.msa
agree on the exact set of 41. Moggallaana adds two more vowels (a
short e & o) to make it 43. To me the set of 41 sounds is a reduction
of the language down to its simplest elements, the building blocks and
in a way like the reduction of dhammas down to a small number of
paramattha dhammas.

Feel free to ask questions or make comments on anything relating to
Pali. If you see anything in the primers or grammars, a Pali word
or phrase or something you'd like to bring up for some feedback -- go
ahead.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
15
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 9:14pm
Subject: Re: the 41 sounds
Fascinating. and your method looks very sound to me Jim.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear group,
> 
> The first sutta of the Saddaniiti states:
> 
> 1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
> 
> 1. The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' are (called)
> va.n.na-s.
> 
> The vutti comments:
> 
> The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' in the word
> (paavacana) of the
> Blessed One are called va.n.na-s as follows:
> 
> a aa i ii u uu e o ka kha ga gha "na ca cha ja jha ~na .ta
> .tha .da
> .dha .na ta tha da dha na pa pha ba bha ma ya ra la va sa ha
> .la a.m
> 
> 2. akkharaa ca te.
> 
> 2. These (sounds) are also (called) akkhara-s.
> 
> =========================
> 
> There's still more to come. Here are some thoughts that came
> up while
> I was pondering over the first sutta. At first I was going to
> call the
> set of 41 sounds 'the alphabet' as that is what Warder,
> Narada, &
> Buddhadatta calls it in the introductory pages of their
> primers (but
> note that the consonants are listed without the accompanying
> 'a' as
> above). I wondered about this word 'alphabet' and felt that it
> had
> more to do with the graphic symbols used to represent the
> sounds
> rather than simply presenting a set of sounds (phonemes) used
> for a
> particular language. If one considers the English alphabet,
> many of
> the individual letters can have several pronunciations such as
> the
> simple vowels, 'c' (= s, k, sh), and so on. Although the
> English
> alphabet has only 26 letters the set of phonemes used in the
> language
> is far greater. One table shows English as having 24
> consonantal and
> 25 vowel sounds.
> 
> The most important Pali grammars that follow the old Indian
> system
> are:
> 
> 1. Kaccaayanavyaakara.na by Kaccaayana
> 2. Saddaniiti by Aggava.msa (12th cent. Burma)
> 3. Moggallaanavyaakara.na by Moggallaana
> 
> I'm not sure of the dating of the 1st and 3rd but I know that
> the
> first is the oldest. There are also many other grammatical
> texts based
> on these three. AFAIK, nothing has been translated into
> English -- so
> if you want to study them you have to read them in Pali. They
> are
> available on-line for downloading. The one I have studied the
> most is
> the Saddaniiti which is the largest one with 928pp. in 3 vols.
> for the
> edition I use. The last volume (not online) is called the
> Suttamaala
> (garland of aphorisms). There are 1347 suttas, usually short,
> like the
> ones given at the top of this message and most of them are
> followed by
> explanations. The first 23 suttas deal with the sound system
> of Pali
> and I would like to present these to you. Warder's section on
> the
> alphabet is based on them but he does deviate on a number of
> points.
> What I have given so far is just the set of 41 sounds. The
> classification of the sounds comes next. Kaccaayana and
> Aggava.msa
> agree on the exact set of 41. Moggallaana adds two more vowels
> (a
> short e & o) to make it 43. To me the set of 41 sounds is a
> reduction
> of the language down to its simplest elements, the building
> blocks and
> in a way like the reduction of dhammas down to a small number
> of
> paramattha dhammas.
> 
> Feel free to ask questions or make comments on anything
> relating to
> Pali. If you see anything in the primers or grammars, a Pali
> word
> or phrase or something you'd like to bring up for some
> feedback -- go
> ahead.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 


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16
From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 10:10pm
Subject: Re: the 41 sounds
Jim

Thanks for an interesting lesson 1.


> Feel free to ask questions or make comments on
> anything relating to
> Pali. If you see anything in the primers or
> grammars, a Pali word
> or phrase or something you'd like to bring up for
> some feedback -- go
> ahead.

This is slightly off-topic, perhaps, for which
apologies.  Following on from our discussion recently
about jhaayati, I have since come across the term 'the
meditator' in a text.  I would be interested to know
if there is a particular Pali term that this might be
referring to.

Jon

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17
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 0:04pm
Subject: the term 'meditator'
Jon.

>This is slightly off-topic, perhaps, for which
>apologies.  Following on from our discussion recently
>about jhaayati, I have since come across the term 'the
>meditator' in a text.  I would be interested to know
>if there is a particular Pali term that this might be
>referring to.

I changed the subject line to make it on-topic. If you had given the
text reference I could have found the Pali word that was translated.
The first thought that comes to mind is to look for an agent-noun
derivative connected to jhaayati for which I knew that 'jhaayii' was
one. I haven't checked all the possibilities but I found another one
'jhaayaka' in the Buddha's interesting explanation of how this term
came about (see D iii 94 Aganna Sutta). 'Jhaayii' is used many times
in the Jhanasamyutta (SN XXXIV). I don't know if the insight-worker
(vipassaka) can be included in this term but that could be found out
by doing some research. In the Mahacunda Sutta (AN VI.46) 'jhaayii'
(meditators) are set in opposition to another group called
'dhammayogaa' which I'm not sure how to translate as this is the only
sutta where this term is met with. The PTS transl. has
'dhamma-zealots' and the commentary says it's a name for
'dhammakathikaa' (dhamma-explainers). Anyway, there is a situation
where each side disrespect the other side, but Mahacunda explains how
each side should, instead, learn to respect each other.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
18
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 11:46pm
Subject: Re: the 41 sounds
Dear Jim,
--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear
group,
> 
> The first sutta of the Saddaniiti states:
> 
> 1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
> 
> 1. The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' are
> (called) va.n.na-s.
> 
> The vutti comments:
> 
> The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' in the word
> (paavacana) of the
> Blessed One are called va.n.na-s as follows:
> 
> a aa i ii u uu e o ka kha ga gha "na ca cha ja jha
> ~na .ta .tha .da
> .dha .na ta tha da dha na pa pha ba bha ma ya ra la
> va sa ha .la a.m
> 
> 2. akkharaa ca te.
> 
> 2. These (sounds) are also (called) akkhara-s.
> 
> =========================

This is all good info and interesting...i'm going to
study it more tomorrow (Sun) when I'm not teaching.
Yes. pls continue to present the 23 suttas as above.

Thanks,
Sarah

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19
From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 9:20am
Subject: Re: the 41 sounds
Jim

Just having another look at L.1, I agree that 'sounds'
is a better description than 'alphabet', for the
reasons you have given.

Just for fun, could you parse the first sutta?  It's
got me intrigued.  Hope this is not jumping the gun
too much, but it might help give us a feel for the
language as we go along.

Jon

PS  Many thanks for our well-researched comments on
the term 'meditator'.  It is as I thought.  It will
help my reading when I next meet this term.  

--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear
group,
> 
> The first sutta of the Saddaniiti states:
> 
> 1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
> 
> 1. The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' are
> (called) va.n.na-s.
> 
> The vutti comments:
> 
> The forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' in the word
> (paavacana) of the
> Blessed One are called va.n.na-s as follows:
> 
> a aa i ii u uu e o ka kha ga gha "na ca cha ja jha
> ~na .ta .tha .da
> .dha .na ta tha da dha na pa pha ba bha ma ya ra la
> va sa ha .la a.m
> 
> 2. akkharaa ca te.
> 
> 2. These (sounds) are also (called) akkhara-s.
> 
> =========================
> 
> There's still more to come. Here are some thoughts
> that came up while
> I was pondering over the first sutta. At first I was
> going to call the
> set of 41 sounds 'the alphabet' as that is what
> Warder, Narada, &
> Buddhadatta calls it in the introductory pages of
> their primers (but
> note that the consonants are listed without the
> accompanying 'a' as
> above). I wondered about this word 'alphabet' and
> felt that it had
> more to do with the graphic symbols used to
> represent the sounds
> rather than simply presenting a set of sounds
> (phonemes) used for a
> particular language. If one considers the English
> alphabet, many of
> the individual letters can have several
> pronunciations such as the
> simple vowels, 'c' (= s, k, sh), and so on. Although
> the English
> alphabet has only 26 letters the set of phonemes
> used in the language
> is far greater. One table shows English as having 24
> consonantal and
> 25 vowel sounds.
> 
> The most important Pali grammars that follow the old
> Indian system
> are:
> 
> 1. Kaccaayanavyaakara.na by Kaccaayana
> 2. Saddaniiti by Aggava.msa (12th cent. Burma)
> 3. Moggallaanavyaakara.na by Moggallaana
> 
> I'm not sure of the dating of the 1st and 3rd but I
> know that the
> first is the oldest. There are also many other
> grammatical texts based
> on these three. AFAIK, nothing has been translated
> into English -- so
> if you want to study them you have to read them in
> Pali. They are
> available on-line for downloading. The one I have
> studied the most is
> the Saddaniiti which is the largest one with 928pp.
> in 3 vols. for the
> edition I use. The last volume (not online) is
> called the Suttamaala
> (garland of aphorisms). There are 1347 suttas,
> usually short, like the
> ones given at the top of this message and most of
> them are followed by
> explanations. The first 23 suttas deal with the
> sound system of Pali
> and I would like to present these to you. Warder's
> section on the
> alphabet is based on them but he does deviate on a
> number of points.
> What I have given so far is just the set of 41
> sounds. The
> classification of the sounds comes next. Kaccaayana
> and Aggava.msa
> agree on the exact set of 41. Moggallaana adds two
> more vowels (a
> short e & o) to make it 43. To me the set of 41
> sounds is a reduction
> of the language down to its simplest elements, the
> building blocks and
> in a way like the reduction of dhammas down to a
> small number of
> paramattha dhammas.
> 
> Feel free to ask questions or make comments on
> anything relating to
> Pali. If you see anything in the primers or
> grammars, a Pali word
> or phrase or something you'd like to bring up for
> some feedback -- go
> ahead.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 


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20
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 9:11pm
Subject: Re: the 41 sounds
Jon,

>Just having another look at L.1, I agree that 'sounds'
>is a better description than 'alphabet', for the
>reasons you have given.

I thought that it would help to think of Pali more as a spoken
language than a written one. The two terms 'va.n.na' and 'akkhara' can
both be translated as 'sound' or 'letter' but the Saddaniti makes it
quite clear that the terms are referring to sounds.

Although language is for the most part conceptual, there are aspects
of it that touches on dhammas in the ultimate sense such as sadda
(ruupa) originating from citta (cittasamu.t.thaana, cittaja). There
are some interesting notes on the production of (articulate) sounds
just before the first sutta. eg. "Of the one thinking and reflecting
(vitakkayato vicaarayato) thus:'I will say this', a sound is produced
by the striking of the clung-to earth element with the arisen earth
element born of citta in this and that place (of articulation)." This
passage is a little out of my depth and so my translation is probably
off the mark.

>Just for fun, could you parse the first sutta?  It's
>got me intrigued.  Hope this is not jumping the gun
>too much, but it might help give us a feel for the
>language as we go along.

1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.

1. (The) forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' (are the)
    va.n.na-s.

The old grammarians of Sanskrit and Pali wrote their sutras or suttas
in a very concise way which are often difficult to decipher without
the help of the commentary. For the first sutta the vutti expands it
into something a little more comprehensible as follows:

Bhagavato paavacane a-kaarappabhutii ekacattaaliisa saddaa va.n.naa
naama bhavanti.

So in the sutta the 'a' before ppabhut- represents the first sound of
the 41 letters. You will note in the vutti 'a-kaara-'. Here, '-kaara-'
(item) is used to specify one particular sound.

'pabhutii' is an adjective meaning 'beginning with'. It has the plural
inflection 'ii' and modifies 'saddaa' (sounds). The double p
in -ppabhutii is best explained by knowing the Sanskrit form
'prabh.rti'. The prefix 'pa' equals the Skt. 'pra'. When a word like
pabhuti is preceded by an element ending in a (usually) short vowel
like 'a' the 'p' is doubled and it helps to think of the second 'p' as
representing the Skt. 'r' in 'pra'. This kind of doubling is very
common in Pali. The long ii at the end of appabhutii has been elided
in the sutta due to sandhi (euphonic combination). The 'e' of eka- has
caused ii to disappear. The first chapter of the Suttamala volume of
the Saddaniti is entitled the Sandhikappa which also includes the
suttas on the Pali sounds. There are at least 160 sandhi rules in it
and we will look at some of them later on. The word
'appabhutekataaliisa' is actually two separate words: appabhutii
ekataaliisa.

'ekataaliisa' means forty-one. eka (one) + taaliisa (forty). The usual
word for forty is 'cattaaliisa' but I suppose Aggava.msa wanted
something a little shorter and chose the one with the 'cat' lopped
off.

'saddaa' is the nom. pl. form of 'sadda' (sound) which is a masculine
word.

'va.n.naa' is also a masculine word and has the same inflection as
saddaa. There is no copula verb in the sutta but it can be understood
from the vutti. The Sanskrit counterparts of sadda and va.n.na are
"sabda and var.na.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
21
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 7:21pm
Subject: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Dear group,

Let's take a closer look at the 41 sounds by dividing them into
two main groups: the 8 vowels (sara-s) and the 33 consonants
(vya~njana-s).

3. tattha.t.thaado saraa.

3. Therein the eight at the beginning (are) the vowels.

The eight vowels are: a aa i ii u uu e o.

tattha 'therein' means: among the 41 akkhara-s beginning with 'a'.
a..t.tha is 'eight'. 'aado 'at the beginning' is a singular locative
form of 'aadi' (neuter). saraa 'the vowels' is the masculine word
'saro' in the nominative plural.

4. ekamattaa aaditatiyapa~ncamaa rassaa.

4. Measuring one the first, third, & fifth are short.

The short vowels are: a i u.

ekamattaa is 'measuring one'. One measure is the time it takes for a
healthy body to blink the eyes once. aadi 'first' or beginning,
initial; tatiya 'third'; pa~ncama 'fifth'. rassaa 'short'.

5. a~n~ne dvimattaa diighaa.

5. The others, measuring two, are long.

The long vowels are: aa ii uu e o.

a~n~ne 'others' is one of the 27 pronouns and takes the 'e' ending for
the nom. and acc. plural in the masculine. dvimattaa 'measuring two
(dvi)'. These vowels are pronounced twice as long as a short vowel.
diighaa 'long'. It is probable that these suttas are taking rassa and
diigha as nouns (shorts & longs) and not adjectives as I have
translated them.

6. sesaa a.d.dhamattaa vya~njanaa.

6. The rest, measuring a half, are the consonants.

The (33) consonants are: ka kha ga gha "na, ca cha ja jha ~na, .ta
.tha .da .dha .na, ta tha da dha na, pa pha ba bha ma; ya ra la va sa
ha .la a.m

sesaa 'the rest' or remainder. a.d.dhamatta 'measuring a half
(a.d.dha)'. These take half as long to pronounce as a short vowel. The
consonant excludes the vowel accompanying it. vya~njanaa 'consonants'.
It will be noted that the 'by-' form is quite commonly seen in the
texts as in 'bya~njana' or 'byaapaada'. The 'vy-' is actually the
prefix 'vi' with the 'i' changed to 'y' before a vowel in accordance
with a sandhi rule.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
22
From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 9:44pm
Subject: Re: the 41 sounds
Jim
[Second try - y'day's reply seems not to have made it
to the list]

--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Jon,
> 
> >Just having another look at L.1, I agree that
> 'sounds'
> >is a better description than 'alphabet', for the
> >reasons you have given.
> 
> I thought that it would help to think of Pali more
> as a spoken
> language than a written one. The two terms 'va.n.na'
> and 'akkhara' can
> both be translated as 'sound' or 'letter' but the
> Saddaniti makes it
> quite clear that the terms are referring to sounds.
> 
> Although language is for the most part conceptual,
> there are aspects
> of it that touches on dhammas in the ultimate sense
> such as sadda
> (ruupa) originating from citta (cittasamu.t.thaana,
> cittaja). There
> are some interesting notes on the production of
> (articulate) sounds
> just before the first sutta. eg. "Of the one
> thinking and reflecting
> (vitakkayato vicaarayato) thus:'I will say this', a
> sound is produced
> by the striking of the clung-to earth element with
> the arisen earth
> element born of citta in this and that place (of
> articulation)." This
> passage is a little out of my depth and so my
> translation is probably
> off the mark.

I am familiar with this passage or one like it from
another source, and i think you have captured the
meaning well.

My guess would be that 'clung-to earth element' is a
reference to the parts of the body used in making
speech, and 'earth element born of citta' to the
hardness conditioned by citta which in turn conditions
vaci-vinnatti (speech intimation).

Useful reminders of the non-selfness of speech.
 
> >Just for fun, could you parse the first sutta? 
> It's
> >got me intrigued.  Hope this is not jumping the gun
> >too much, but it might help give us a feel for the
> >language as we go along.
> 
> 1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
> 
> 1. (The) forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' (are
> the)
>     va.n.na-s.
> 
> The old grammarians of Sanskrit and Pali wrote their
> sutras or suttas
> in a very concise way which are often difficult to
> decipher without
> the help of the commentary. For the first sutta the
> vutti expands it
> into something a little more comprehensible as
> follows:
> 
> Bhagavato paavacane a-kaarappabhutii ekacattaaliisa
> saddaa va.n.naa
> naama bhavanti.
> 
> So in the sutta the 'a' before ppabhut- represents
> the first sound of
> the 41 letters. You will note in the vutti
> 'a-kaara-'. Here, '-kaara-'
> (item) is used to specify one particular sound.
> 
> 'pabhutii' is an adjective meaning 'beginning with'.
> It has the plural
> inflection 'ii' and modifies 'saddaa' (sounds). The
> double p
> in -ppabhutii is best explained by knowing the
> Sanskrit form
> 'prabh.rti'. The prefix 'pa' equals the Skt. 'pra'.
> When a word like
> pabhuti is preceded by an element ending in a
> (usually) short vowel
> like 'a' the 'p' is doubled and it helps to think of
> the second 'p' as
> representing the Skt. 'r' in 'pra'. This kind of
> doubling is very
> common in Pali. The long ii at the end of appabhutii
> has been elided
> in the sutta due to sandhi (euphonic combination).
> The 'e' of eka- has
> caused ii to disappear. The first chapter of the
> Suttamala volume of
> the Saddaniti is entitled the Sandhikappa which also
> includes the
> suttas on the Pali sounds. There are at least 160
> sandhi rules in it
> and we will look at some of them later on. The word
> 'appabhutekataaliisa' is actually two separate
> words: appabhutii
> ekataaliisa.
> 
> 'ekataaliisa' means forty-one. eka (one) + taaliisa
> (forty). The usual
> word for forty is 'cattaaliisa' but I suppose
> Aggava.msa wanted
> something a little shorter and chose the one with
> the 'cat' lopped
> off.
> 
> 'saddaa' is the nom. pl. form of 'sadda' (sound)
> which is a masculine
> word.
> 
> 'va.n.naa' is also a masculine word and has the same
> inflection as
> saddaa. There is no copula verb in the sutta but it
> can be understood
> from the vutti. The Sanskrit counterparts of sadda
> and va.n.na are
> "sabda and var.na.

Thanks for your detailed and careful explanation.  I
had not realized there would be so much work in it for
you - apologies for this.  But very interesting (but
allow me a week or so to digest!).

> Best wishes,
> Jim

Many thanks, Jim
Jon

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23
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:35am
Subject: new site
Dear group,
I just put up my new site. It doesn't have much on it yet and I
have to sort out a few copyright issues.
I am trying to get the url I bought last year transferred but
this is taking time. the temporary url
is:http://www.buddhism.addr.com/ It is still a bit confidential
so don't announce it yet.
Robert

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24
From: jaran jai-nhuknan <jaranoh@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:06pm
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Thank you Jim. It must be a lot of work for you. Anumodana

--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear group,
> 
> Let's take a closer look at the 41 sounds by dividing them into
> two main groups: the 8 vowels (sara-s) and the 33 consonants
> (vya~njana-s).
> 
> 3. tattha.t.thaado saraa.
> 
> 3. Therein the eight at the beginning (are) the vowels.
> 
> The eight vowels are: a aa i ii u uu e o.
> 
> tattha 'therein' means: among the 41 akkhara-s beginning with 'a'.
> a..t.tha is 'eight'. 'aado 'at the beginning' is a singular locative
> form of 'aadi' (neuter). saraa 'the vowels' is the masculine word
> 'saro' in the nominative plural.
> 
> 4. ekamattaa aaditatiyapa~ncamaa rassaa.
> 
> 4. Measuring one the first, third, & fifth are short.
> 
> The short vowels are: a i u.
> 
> ekamattaa is 'measuring one'. One measure is the time it takes for a
> healthy body to blink the eyes once. aadi 'first' or beginning,
> initial; tatiya 'third'; pa~ncama 'fifth'. rassaa 'short'.
> 
> 5. a~n~ne dvimattaa diighaa.
> 
> 5. The others, measuring two, are long.
> 
> The long vowels are: aa ii uu e o.
> 
> a~n~ne 'others' is one of the 27 pronouns and takes the 'e' ending for
> the nom. and acc. plural in the masculine. dvimattaa 'measuring two
> (dvi)'. These vowels are pronounced twice as long as a short vowel.
> diighaa 'long'. It is probable that these suttas are taking rassa and
> diigha as nouns (shorts & longs) and not adjectives as I have
> translated them.
> 
> 6. sesaa a.d.dhamattaa vya~njanaa.
> 
> 6. The rest, measuring a half, are the consonants.
> 
> The (33) consonants are: ka kha ga gha "na, ca cha ja jha ~na, .ta
> .tha .da .dha .na, ta tha da dha na, pa pha ba bha ma; ya ra la va sa
> ha .la a.m
> 
> sesaa 'the rest' or remainder. a.d.dhamatta 'measuring a half
> (a.d.dha)'. These take half as long to pronounce as a short vowel. The
> consonant excludes the vowel accompanying it. vya~njanaa 'consonants'.
> It will be noted that the 'by-' form is quite commonly seen in the
> texts as in 'bya~njana' or 'byaapaada'. The 'vy-' is actually the
> prefix 'vi' with the 'i' changed to 'y' before a vowel in accordance
> with a sandhi rule.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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25
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 5:47am
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Jim,

like jaran said, many thanks for all your time and
work here. Pls take it as read that even if we don't
reply or thank you for each post that it's being read
and is of interest. I'll just put in one or two simple
technical qus:

--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear
group,

> The (33) consonants are: ka kha ga gha "na, ca cha
> ja jha ~na, .ta
> .tha .da .dha .na, ta tha da dha na, pa pha ba bha
> ma; ya ra la va sa
> ha .la a.m

do you have any recommendation for remembering the
order as I always (still) get in muddle when checking
in dictionaries?

Why for e.g. are the last 2 at the end in that order?

What is the symbol "na representing? Is na, a typo or
what is the comma for? also ma; - what is this?

It might be useful to repeat the use of symbols you
use as i'm still getting used to them. i find it
rather amazing that on my typewriter i had in the 70s
I had keys for various diacritics which I can't use
easily on  my computer more than 20yrs later. (sorry
for diversion).

V.interesting that these take half as long as a short
vowel- sth new to me.
> 
As the list keeps me pretty busy, pls note I'm often
v.behind in reviewing here, hence my delayed comments.

Sarah

_______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
26
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:27pm
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Dear Sarah,

>like jaran said, many thanks for all your time and
>work here. Pls take it as read that even if we don't
>reply or thank you for each post that it's being read
>and is of interest. I'll just put in one or two simple
>technical qus:

Thanks Sarah, Jaran, and the rest of you. I don't need to be thanked for
each post before you get another one. It's just that I have been busy
responding to private messages off-list from Amara and now Robert. Also
there were some stuff that came up on dsg regarding sabhaava and your query
concerning Mahakassapa that I'm still mulling over. Usually, I find writing
one or two messages a day is enough for me.

I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Amara as a new member. There
are now seven of us and it is possible that Bruce may be joining us a little
later.

>> The (33) consonants are: ka kha ga gha "na, ca cha
>> ja jha ~na, .ta
>> .tha .da .dha .na, ta tha da dha na, pa pha ba bha
>> ma; ya ra la va sa
>> ha .la a.m
>
>do you have any recommendation for remembering the
>order as I always (still) get in muddle when checking
>in dictionaries?

My next lesson will deal with the vaggas, the 25 consonants from ka to ma in
five groups of five. Once you understand why the letters are arranged in
this particular order they'll be easy to remember. You'll have to wait until
we get to sutta 23 before you get all the information for a full picture.
It should be noted that there is a slight difference in the order of letters
used in the PED which places the .m between 'o' and 'ka', and .l after l.
There is also an .lha placed after .la. If you look up a word like a.msa you
will find it right near the beginning of the a's. Also, sa.m + ya, ra, va,
sa, or ha come before the entry 'saka' which some might find confusing. The
dictionary is following the Sanskrit order of letters.

>Why for e.g. are the last 2 at the end in that order?

This is how it is presented in the traditional Pali grammars. I view the
last four letters as a miscellaneous group unlike the way the other letters
are grouped together. A good way to remember the scheme of Pali
sounds/letters is the 8 + 25 + 8 = 41 formula. Just remember that there are
8 before and 8 after the 25 vagga consonants. I would also recommend that
one learn to recite the 41 sounds from memory just like you would the
letters of the English alphabet.

>What is the symbol "na representing? Is na, a typo or
>what is the comma for? also ma; - what is this?

The symbol "na represents the guttural n which is usually seen with a dot
above it in printed texts. It's the same n as in sangha (sa"ngha). I use the
same transliteration scheme adopted by the Pali Text Society on their
website and also by many Buddhist academics. There are only four
conventions to remember: the doubling of vowels eg. aa (long a), a period .
eg. .t is the t with a dot under it, the tilde ~ before n is the n with the
tilde above it, and the double quote " before n. Here's a quick mnemonic
key: (aa .t ~n "n). I put the commas and the semi-colon in to mark off the 5
groups of vagga consonants, the semi-colon marks the terminal point of the
25 consonants. I deliberately left them out when I first presented the 41
sounds and should have left them out with the consonants until I got to my
upcoming post on the vaggas.

>It might be useful to repeat the use of symbols you
>use as i'm still getting used to them. i find it
>rather amazing that on my typewriter i had in the 70s
>I had keys for various diacritics which I can't use
>easily on  my computer more than 20yrs later. (sorry
>for diversion).
>
>V.interesting that these take half as long as a short
>vowel- sth new to me.

That is, the consonant without the vowel. So if you were to calculate the
length of a short open syllable like 'ka' it would come out to one and a
half units and for a closed one like 'tat' that would be two units (half +
one + half).

>As the list keeps me pretty busy, pls note I'm often
>v.behind in reviewing here, hence my delayed comments.

Dsg also keeps me busy and away from this list. Regarding your question
about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are the five dhutadhammas
beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See Vism II.1. The Anguttara
commentary has some good explanations. I'm really impressed with your
skilful responses to Joyce who I remembered from d-l, a difficult individual
who insists on mixing up the teachings from different schools.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
27
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:27pm
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
> I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Amara as a new member. 
There
> are now seven of us and it is possible that Bruce may be joining us 
a little
> later.



Dear Jim,

I really hope you won't regret your benevolence in giving me this 
opportunity to study with you, when I said I would probably lurk at 
the back of the class, I had no idea that it would be so fantastic!  
As I said in a private note to you having taken the very first look at 
PaliStudies,

>Thank you so much for this great privilege of studying with you. Your
>careful and thorough explanation makes it much less daunting than I
>had imagined, as well as amazingly interesting.  This is also a real
>treasure as document, would you consider at least an eventual link to
>DhammaStudy.com, to share it with other Pali students?  Later on
>printing it in book form would be infinitely beneficial indeed...

And now the reason why you might want to invite me to leave someday; 
my inquisitive mode is in gear:

Just some little details for starters, may I go back to the parts 
before I joined?  What does niti in Saddaniiti mean?  Is it from the 
same root as in the Nettipakarana?  Which would make it something like 
a rule or law or behavioral code?

What does kappa mean in the Sandhikappa is it the same word meaning 
eons of time?

And vutti?

A little question about grammar, in the first sutta,
1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
1. (The) forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' (are the) va.n.na-s.
Is the verb completely out here as understood?  I know the grammar 
will come a lot later (and am still a little apprehensive about 
learning it), I would simply like a confirmation of my assumption.

I have some questions about the akkharas but will wait until you have 
taught about the pronunciations to ask them, probably by the time you 
have finished I will have understood, 

Thank you for this wonderful opportunity, and anumodana,

Amara
 
28
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 7:49pm
Subject: Re: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Dear Amara,

Sorry for such a terse welcome and thanks for filling in on the void left
behind.

>I really hope you won't regret your benevolence in giving me this
>opportunity to study with you, when I said I would probably lurk at
>the back of the class, I had no idea that it would be so fantastic!
>As I said in a private note to you having taken the very first look at
>PaliStudies,

The time you spent lurking at the back of the class was rather short-lived!
Now that you have come out of hiding feel free to sit at the front if you
like. I notice your 'PaliStudies' which looks great. When I was thinking up
of an email name for the group I had thought of 'palistudies' but chose
'palistudy' to match dhammastudy. I think that in the settings it is
possible to change the email address and I'm open to name changes if anyone
can think of a better one. The tag name can be changed too eg. [PaliStudy].
Also any suggestions for improving the description of the group would be
welcome.

>>Thank you so much for this great privilege of studying with you. Your
>>careful and thorough explanation makes it much less daunting than I
>>had imagined, as well as amazingly interesting.  This is also a real
>>treasure as document, would you consider at least an eventual link to
>>DhammaStudy.com, to share it with other Pali students?  Later on
>>printing it in book form would be infinitely beneficial indeed...

>And now the reason why you might want to invite me to leave someday;
>my inquisitive mode is in gear:

I'm doubtful this will ever become a reason for inviting you to leave. Your
inquisitive mind is most welcome here and I look forward to answering your
questions wherever possible.

>Just some little details for starters, may I go back to the parts
>before I joined?  What does niti in Saddaniiti mean?  Is it from the
>same root as in the Nettipakarana?  Which would make it something like
>a rule or law or behavioral code?

Everyone is free to go back and bring up anything from previous posts, no
matter how far back. You can also bring up anything else relating to Pali. I
thought that once we have dealt with most of the material on the sounds of
Pali we could start working on a very short sutta (a paragraph-sized one)
taken directly from the Tipitaka. We can cover all what's needed to read the
sutta in Pali.

I don't know precisely what 'niiti' means, but I generally think of it as
meaning guide or guidance while allowing for the possibility that it may
have a more precise meaning that I have yet to come across. Sadda means
sound but I suspect that it could mean something more specific in
combination with 'niiti'. Niiti and netti both come from the same verbal
root (dhaatu): 'nii' -to lead, guide, conduct. Naya (method) & vinaya also
come from the same root. You will have noticed that the English title of the
Nettippakara.na is _The Guide_. I think of the Nettippakara.na as a handbook
for teachers and commentators. Your mention of 'rule' or 'law' is
interesting. I noticed in PED the word 'niiticintaka' - lawgiver (cintaka
means thinker).

>What does kappa mean in the Sandhikappa is it the same word meaning
>eons of time?

I think 'kappa' here might be referring to the prescribed rules for sandhi.
Many of the chapters of the Suttamaala, the third volume of the Saddaniiti,
end with the word 'kappa'. Here is the table of contents:

20. sandhikappo (euphonic combination)
21. naamakappo (nominal words)
22. kaarakavibhaago (syntax)
23. samaasakappo (compounds)
24. taddhitakappo (secondary affixes)
25. aakhyaatakappo (verbs)
26, kibbidhaanakappo (primary affixes)
27. vacogadhapadavibhatti (4 classes of words)
28. paa.linayaadisa"ngaho (Pali methods (?), etc.)

The 'kappa' as in 'mahaakappa' (great eon) means something quite different,
although both kappas come from the same root 'kapp' which carries 3 basic
meanings. I had a look at this one in the Dhaatumaala, the second volume,
and found that 'kappa' is a very complex word with at least 19 different
uses such as in 'sa"nkappa' (thought), and so on.

>And vutti?

gloss, commentary (Skt. v.rtti).

>A little question about grammar, in the first sutta,
>1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
>1. (The) forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' (are the) va.n.na-s.
>Is the verb completely out here as understood?  I know the grammar
>will come a lot later (and am still a little apprehensive about
>learning it), I would simply like a confirmation of my assumption.

Yes, but according to its vutti the 3rd pers. plural verb 'bhavanti' (are)
can be read into it. I think it would be okay to leave out the round
brackets in a normal translation. I put them there to show that there is no
verb or definite article in this sutta. You will notice that most of these
suttas do not contain verbs. Verbless sentences (eg. ida.m dukkha.m) are
fairly common in Pali and quite often a participle functions like a verb eg.
evam me suta.m -- thus have I heard (lit. thus by me it was heard).

>I have some questions about the akkharas but will wait until you have
>taught about the pronunciations to ask them, probably by the time you
>have finished I will have understood,

Looking forward to more of your excellent questions.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
29
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 9:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
dear Jim,
Really excellent stuff. I'm  glad this is being preserved on the
yahoo.groups file. Maybe we should join escribe - the same as
dsg- under the members only scheme, so that a permanent backup
is available?
Rob
--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> Sorry for such a terse welcome and thanks for filling in on
> the void left
> behind.
> 
> >I really hope you won't regret your benevolence in giving me
> this
> >opportunity to study with you, when I said I would probably
> lurk at
> >the back of the class, I had no idea that it would be so
> fantastic!
> >As I said in a private note to you having taken the very
> first look at
> >PaliStudies,
> 
> The time you spent lurking at the back of the class was rather
> short-lived!
> Now that you have come out of hiding feel free to sit at the
> front if you
> like. I notice your 'PaliStudies' which looks great. When I
> was thinking up
> of an email name for the group I had thought of 'palistudies'
> but chose
> 'palistudy' to match dhammastudy. I think that in the settings
> it is
> possible to change the email address and I'm open to name
> changes if anyone
> can think of a better one. The tag name can be changed too eg.
> [PaliStudy].
> Also any suggestions for improving the description of the
> group would be
> welcome.
> 
> >>Thank you so much for this great privilege of studying with
> you. Your
> >>careful and thorough explanation makes it much less daunting
> than I
> >>had imagined, as well as amazingly interesting.  This is
> also a real
> >>treasure as document, would you consider at least an
> eventual link to
> >>DhammaStudy.com, to share it with other Pali students? 
> Later on
> >>printing it in book form would be infinitely beneficial
> indeed...
> 
> >And now the reason why you might want to invite me to leave
> someday;
> >my inquisitive mode is in gear:
> 
> I'm doubtful this will ever become a reason for inviting you
> to leave. Your
> inquisitive mind is most welcome here and I look forward to
> answering your
> questions wherever possible.
> 
> >Just some little details for starters, may I go back to the
> parts
> >before I joined?  What does niti in Saddaniiti mean?  Is it
> from the
> >same root as in the Nettipakarana?  Which would make it
> something like
> >a rule or law or behavioral code?
> 
> Everyone is free to go back and bring up anything from
> previous posts, no
> matter how far back. You can also bring up anything else
> relating to Pali. I
> thought that once we have dealt with most of the material on
> the sounds of
> Pali we could start working on a very short sutta (a
> paragraph-sized one)
> taken directly from the Tipitaka. We can cover all what's
> needed to read the
> sutta in Pali.
> 
> I don't know precisely what 'niiti' means, but I generally
> think of it as
> meaning guide or guidance while allowing for the possibility
> that it may
> have a more precise meaning that I have yet to come across.
> Sadda means
> sound but I suspect that it could mean something more specific
> in
> combination with 'niiti'. Niiti and netti both come from the
> same verbal
> root (dhaatu): 'nii' -to lead, guide, conduct. Naya (method) &
> vinaya also
> come from the same root. You will have noticed that the
> English title of the
> Nettippakara.na is _The Guide_. I think of the Nettippakara.na
> as a handbook
> for teachers and commentators. Your mention of 'rule' or 'law'
> is
> interesting. I noticed in PED the word 'niiticintaka' -
> lawgiver (cintaka
> means thinker).
> 
> >What does kappa mean in the Sandhikappa is it the same word
> meaning
> >eons of time?
> 
> I think 'kappa' here might be referring to the prescribed
> rules for sandhi.
> Many of the chapters of the Suttamaala, the third volume of
> the Saddaniiti,
> end with the word 'kappa'. Here is the table of contents:
> 
> 20. sandhikappo (euphonic combination)
> 21. naamakappo (nominal words)
> 22. kaarakavibhaago (syntax)
> 23. samaasakappo (compounds)
> 24. taddhitakappo (secondary affixes)
> 25. aakhyaatakappo (verbs)
> 26, kibbidhaanakappo (primary affixes)
> 27. vacogadhapadavibhatti (4 classes of words)
> 28. paa.linayaadisa"ngaho (Pali methods (?), etc.)
> 
> The 'kappa' as in 'mahaakappa' (great eon) means something
> quite different,
> although both kappas come from the same root 'kapp' which
> carries 3 basic
> meanings. I had a look at this one in the Dhaatumaala, the
> second volume,
> and found that 'kappa' is a very complex word with at least 19
> different
> uses such as in 'sa"nkappa' (thought), and so on.
> 
> >And vutti?
> 
> gloss, commentary (Skt. v.rtti).
> 
> >A little question about grammar, in the first sutta,
> >1. appabhutekataaliisa saddaa va.n.naa.
> >1. (The) forty-one sounds beginning with 'a' (are the)
> va.n.na-s.
> >Is the verb completely out here as understood?  I know the
> grammar
> >will come a lot later (and am still a little apprehensive
> about
> >learning it), I would simply like a confirmation of my
> assumption.
> 
> Yes, but according to its vutti the 3rd pers. plural verb
> 'bhavanti' (are)
> can be read into it. I think it would be okay to leave out the
> round
> brackets in a normal translation. I put them there to show
> that there is no
> verb or definite article in this sutta. You will notice that
> most of these
> suttas do not contain verbs. Verbless sentences (eg. ida.m
> dukkha.m) are
> fairly common in Pali and quite often a participle functions
> like a verb eg.
> evam me suta.m -- thus have I heard (lit. thus by me it was
> heard).
> 
> >I have some questions about the akkharas but will wait until
> you have
> >taught about the pronunciations to ask them, probably by the
> time you
> >have finished I will have understood,
> 
> Looking forward to more of your excellent questions.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
30
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:05am
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
>The time you spent lurking at the back of the class was rather 
short-lived! Now 
>that you have come out of hiding feel free to sit at the front if you 
like.

Dear Jim,

Thank you for the permission, maybe I'll take you up on it, perhaps 
the corner by the door so as to get in no one's way and to make a more 
graceful exit in case of emergencies!

>I notice your 'PaliStudies' which looks great. 

Actually, I'm afraid it was another of my chronic careless mistakes.  
Although the subconscious might be at work here, I had proposed the 
name 'DhammaStudies' to the then website committee (long since 
dissolved, all present responsibilities are mine) myself but was 
outvoted.  

>When I was thinking up of an email name for the group I had thought 
of 
>'palistudies' but chose 'palistudy' to match dhammastudy. I think 
that in the 
>settings it is possible to change the email address and I'm open to 
name changes 
>if anyone can think of a better one. The tag name can be changed too 
eg. 
>[PaliStudy].  Also any suggestions for improving the description of 
the group 
>would be welcome.

I think [PaliStudy] looks great myself, come to think of it!

>>>Thank you so much for this great privilege of studying with you. 
Your
>>>careful and thorough explanation makes it much less daunting than I
>>>had imagined, as well as amazingly interesting.  This is also a 
real
>>>treasure as document, would you consider at least an eventual link 
to
>>>DhammaStudy.com, to share it with other Pali students?  Later on
>>>printing it in book form would be infinitely beneficial indeed...

>>And now the reason why you might want to invite me to leave someday;
>>my inquisitive mode is in gear:

>I'm doubtful this will ever become a reason for inviting you to 
leave. Your 
>inquisitive mind is most welcome here and I look forward to answering 
your 
>questions wherever possible.

Thank you very much, if you ever change your mind just shout!  
Seriously, I really appreciate the great care you take in teaching, 
and especially in answering all the questions with such clarity and 
using such extensive research.

>I don't know precisely what 'niiti' means, but I generally think of 
it as meaning 
>guide or guidance while allowing for the possibility that it may have 
a more 
>precise meaning that I have yet to come across. Sadda means sound but 
I 
>suspect that it could mean something more specific in combination 
with 'niiti'.

Could you also tell us what the possible meanings of Saddaniiti are?

>Niiti and netti both come from the same verbal root (dhaatu): 'nii' 
-to lead, guide, 
>conduct. Naya (method) & vinaya also come from the same root. You 
will have 
>noticed that the English title of the Nettippakara.na is _The Guide_. 
I think of the 
>Nettippakara.na as a handbook for teachers and commentators. Your 
mention of 
>'rule' or 'law' is interesting. I noticed in PED the word 
'niiticintaka' - lawgiver 
>(cintaka means thinker).

It reminds me that the Thai uses 'nitipannati' for the government 
legislation department.  

Consequently, it makes me think of Gayan, wouldn't it be great if he 
had the time to join our group?  He seems quite knowledgeable in Pali 
and once said that Singhalese was derived from the Pali for the most 
part.  Our studies would familiarize him with how Pali is written in 
romanized alphabets as well as the proper translations.  And he could 
certainly help us with his linguistic heritage which is probably the 
closest we could get to the original, don't you think?

>I think 'kappa' here might be referring to the prescribed rules for 
sandhi. 

>The 'kappa' as in 'mahaakappa' (great eon) means something quite 
different, 
>although both kappas come from the same root 'kapp' which carries 3 
basic 
>meanings. 

May I ask for more details; which three meanings?

I had a look at this one in the Dhaatumaala, the second volume, and 
found that 'kappa' is a very complex word with at least 19 different 
uses such as in 'sa"nkappa' (thought), and so on.

Looking forward to more of your excellent questions.

Thank you for your kindnesses, anumodana,

Amara
 
31
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:35am
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
jim,

thanks for the Pali & other responses...the one from
dsg, I'll follow up there when I have time....When you
said PED & others follow the Sanskrit order, that
clarified the confusion at the end of the
alphabet...it's good to get the groundwork cleared
while we have the chance....

Amara, I can see you're going to be teacher's pet at
the front of class in no time.....keep it up!

Sarah

p.s. personally I like palistudygroup (psg) to match
dhammastudygroup (dsg), but some might say I'm biased!!

_______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk


32
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 6:20pm
Subject: Re: escribe suggestion
Rob, thanks for the suggestion.  I have been saving all the messages on
my computer for a backup. I had been thinking of creating zip files with a
specific no. of messages collected together in chronological order in each
file. I could then upload them to the home page "files" section for members
to download whenever they wish. Such a file might contain 50 or 100
messages with the unnecessary parts (yahoo advertising, repetitions)
deleted. I'm also planning to write polished grammatical documents for easy
reference so you won't have to wade through a lot of messages. The idea of
joining escribe is one I haven't thought of before. Personally, I don't feel
the need for it at the moment but if you or someone else do and would like
to set it up and take care of that end that would be fine with me. BTW, I
have made the changes on palistudy to make you a co-moderator which you
agreed to in your private note. Just be careful not to push that 'delete the
group' button.

Jim

>dear Jim,
>Really excellent stuff. I'm  glad this is being preserved on the
>yahoo.groups file. Maybe we should join escribe - the same as
>dsg- under the members only scheme, so that a permanent backup
>is available?
>Rob
 
33
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Sarah,

>jim,
>
>thanks for the Pali & other responses...the one from
>dsg, I'll follow up there when I have time....When you
>said PED & others follow the Sanskrit order, that
>clarified the confusion at the end of the
>alphabet...it's good to get the groundwork cleared
>while we have the chance....

By the Sanskrit order of letters I should qualify this by saying that this
is the order used in modern Sanskrit dictionaries (noticeably
Monier-Williams'). The consonant .l is not found in classical Sanskrit but
it does occur in Vedic. There is a vowel .l (I think properly written .lr)
that might get confused with the consonant .l but they are so rare that you
don't need to be concerned about it unless you decide to take up the study
of the Vedic language in addition to Pali. I haven't yet seen a layout of
the order of Sanskrit letters according to the old traditional Sanskrit
grammars. I have Panini but there's no layout there except for Shiva's
aphorisms which are used for a different purpose.

>Amara, I can see you're going to be teacher's pet at
>the front of class in no time.....keep it up!

Yes, Amara, keep it up!

>Sarah
>
>p.s. personally I like palistudygroup (psg) to match
>dhammastudygroup (dsg), but some might say I'm biased!!

Actually, the official name of the group is The Pali Study Group. The
username: palistudy is just a simplified name for convenience. I find that
putting a long tag name on the subject line leaves the subject/topic portion
less visible in my email window. In abbreviated form we could refer to this
group as psg in our messages just like we do dsg.

Jim
p.s. I still have to answer Amara's message but I don't know if I'll have
enough time for it tonight, if not, I'll get it out tomorrow. Right now, I'm
going to go and sit in front of the blazing fire and think.
 
34
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 7:20am
Subject: files etc.
Dear Jim,
Sounds like Canada is still a little chilly? We are starting to see 
some warm weather in Japan now.
The files sound well-preserved. Very interesting about how the 
dictionaries are ordered in pali. Is it then a western convention due 
to the fact that sanskrit held the interest of early linguists or is 
there some relationship to the anciinet pali grammarians (did they 
have dictionaries?)
I was wondering if we could invite Alex tran to join? she has started 
a translation into vietnamese of one of Sujin's books and might find 
a few interesting points on this list.

I am going to start a little group for Dhamma study and Support 
foundation members: this is mainly for discussing  issues incidental 
to dhamma such as travel plans, translations, funding of projects and 
for friendly banter among friends. The sort of stuff that could go on 
dsg but is somewhat off-topic. Everyone on this list is invited to 
join  and I hope we will get quite a few memebers so that we can keep 
in closer contact. before I start it let me know if you think it is 
worthwhile? 

A final point I never thanked Jim publically for the GREAT help he 
gave me a few weeks back during a major debate on dhamma-list . This 
is the post I sent to dsg when I was explaining the ancient age of 
the commentaries. Jims knowledge ensured the accuracy of the 
information I was able to give.
rob
ps I'll try to keep my finger off the trigger(delete)
 
35
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
Dear Amara,

>I think [PaliStudy] looks great myself, come to think of it!

I went so far as to change it to [PaliStudy] but then changed my mind about
it soon afterwards, so it's back to the usual for now. I have been
reconsidering Sarah's preference for palistudygroup.

>Could you also tell us what the possible meanings of Saddaniiti are?

I find myself taking it to mean a 'guide to the sounds' (of Pali). I have
had difficulties with what the word 'sadda' might actually mean here. I
looked up the meaning of 'sound' in the English dictionary (COD) and found a
sense that seems to come close: "any of a series of articulate utterances
([eg.] vowel and consonant sounds)". The Saddaniti often refers to a word as
a sound (sadda). There are other possible meanings for sadda such as word,
speech, voice, language, even grammar but I think 'sound' as defined above
seems the mostly likely one to me.

>It reminds me that the Thai uses 'nitipannati' for the government
>legislation department.

I think 'niiti' as the prior member of a compound does carry the sense of
governing, leading, directing. Some Sanskrit compounds are niitividyaa
(political science) and niiti"saastram (science of ethics or of politics;
morality).

>Consequently, it makes me think of Gayan, wouldn't it be great if he
>had the time to join our group?  He seems quite knowledgeable in Pali
>and once said that Singhalese was derived from the Pali for the most
>part.  Our studies would familiarize him with how Pali is written in
>romanized alphabets as well as the proper translations.  And he could
>certainly help us with his linguistic heritage which is probably the
>closest we could get to the original, don't you think?

Yes, I agree. I have thought of inviting Gayan but have postponed it for a
little while longer. I think it would be prudent to keep this group fairly
small in its early stages -- at least until we get our feet on the ground
and the time seems right for more invitations.

>>I think 'kappa' here might be referring to the prescribed rules for
>sandhi.
>
>>The 'kappa' as in 'mahaakappa' (great eon) means something quite
>different,
>>although both kappas come from the same root 'kapp' which carries 3
>basic
>>meanings.
>
>May I ask for more details; which three meanings?

The three basic meanings given for the root 'kapp' in the Dhaatumaala are
vitakka (thought), vidhi (this has too many meanings for me to sift through
for the most basic one) and chedana (cutting). I would say that the kappa in
sandhikappa is connected to vidhi as it carries a meaning of rule, precept.
I'm not sure which one of these meanings the sense of eon comes from but
perhaps vidhi also. The Sanskrit equivalent of  'kappa' is 'kalpa' which is
derived differently from the Pali one in that its root is k.rp where the .r
is then changed to .l for k.lp and the meaning associated with this root is
saamarthya -- ability. So you can see that kappa (with or without a prefix)
is rather a difficult word to fully understand with so many different
meanings associated with it.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
36
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: files etc.
Dear Robert,

>Sounds like Canada is still a little chilly? We are starting to see
>some warm weather in Japan now.

Yes, it is still quite cold but hopefully we'll see some warm weather soon.
Most of the snow is usually gone by the end of March.

>The files sound well-preserved. Very interesting about how the
>dictionaries are ordered in pali. Is it then a western convention due
>to the fact that sanskrit held the interest of early linguists or is
>there some relationship to the anciinet pali grammarians (did they
>have dictionaries?)

The oldest Pali dictionary that has come down to us is the
Abhidhaanappadiipikaa by Moggallaana one of the grammarians. I'm not sure
of its date but it's from the middle period (?ca. 12th cent.). It is not a
dictionary like the modern ones we're familiar with. It's more like a book
of synonyms or a thesaurus and the words are not arranged in alphabetical
order. Sanskrit also seems to have been of interest to the old Pali
grammarians like Kaccayana and Aggavamsa who evidently based their
grammars on Sanskrit models. I include the study of the ancient Indian
system of describing Vedic & Sanskrit with my Pali study. I find that you
have to use caution in studying the old Pali grammatical treatises such as
the Saddaniti as they are by no means perfect or complete. A co-ordinated
study of Sanskrit helps to clarify many of the obscure points of Pali. It's
not that I study Sanskrit so I can read Sanskrit texts but it's mostly to
help me out with the Pali and to make good use of the Sanskrit dictionaries.

>I was wondering if we could invite Alex tran to join? she has started
>a translation into vietnamese of one of Sujin's books and might find
>a few interesting points on this list.

I'll discuss this with you off-list possibly tomorrow.

>I am going to start a little group for Dhamma study and Support
>foundation members: this is mainly for discussing  issues incidental
>to dhamma such as travel plans, translations, funding of projects and
>for friendly banter among friends. The sort of stuff that could go on
>dsg but is somewhat off-topic. Everyone on this list is invited to
>join  and I hope we will get quite a few memebers so that we can keep
>in closer contact. before I start it let me know if you think it is
>worthwhile?

This sounds interesting. Please let us know when you have it set up.

>A final point I never thanked Jim publically for the GREAT help he
>gave me a few weeks back during a major debate on dhamma-list . This
>is the post I sent to dsg when I was explaining the ancient age of
>the commentaries. Jims knowledge ensured the accuracy of the
>information I was able to give.
>rob

It was a pleasure to help you.

>ps I'll try to keep my finger off the trigger(delete)

Thank goodness!

Jim
 
37
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 10:42pm
Subject: Re: suttas 3-6: vowels & consonants
> I have been
> reconsidering Sarah's preference for palistudygroup.

Dear Jim,

I must admit that's a nice one too!
 
> Yes, I agree. I have thought of inviting Gayan but have postponed it 
for a
> little while longer. I think it would be prudent to keep this group 
fairly
> small in its early stages -- at least until we get our feet on the 
ground
> and the time seems right for more invitations.

Not to mention people bombarding you with questions and practical 
problems of decision making!  I'll check my inquisitiveness and go 
back to my lurking position for now and give you some room to prepare 
the next lesson, towards which I look forward very much.

Thanks again for everything, anumodana,

Amara
 
38
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:08pm
Subject: Re: files etc.
Jim,

Yes yr ideas for files sounds good and helpful and
more work for you!

Actually dsg started off as Dhamma Study Group,
following the original name of the English group in
Bkk, but cyber world has changed it into
dhammastudygroup for ease it seems... Yr comments
about the long subject heading are well taken & we may
change this to dsg to keep the subject clear. We'll
have to give due notice first as many members have
filters set up. Pls use whatever name/form you
like....

Jon(his new cyber name!) has been corresponding with
PTS on an alphbet card (in the front of dictionaries
etc) to assist slow-learners like me. He intends to
write about this on the list here soon.
Sarah

p.s.
Robert,
I'm not sure about another list....we're all v.busy
with these ones. You have mentioned also not having
enough time for a month or two to contribute to dsg,
you're also getting a website off the ground and
helping w/psg now (not to mention work, kids,home and
PhD thesis). Is this wise to start another list? As
you know, any banter related to the dhamma is welcome
on dsg! I think we already keep in far closer contact
than I do with most my family!



_______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
39
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 10:40pm
Subject: The Painting Passage
Dear Jim,

I thought I would leave you in peace for a while but a message in dsg 
about a passage in the Atthasalini Atthakatha reminded me that I had 
the biggest problem in translating it from the Thai version, simply 
because in the Thai language the word masterpiece didn't exist (to be 
reverified) in the old days.  I would still like to know if the 
translation below is more or less adequate when compared to the 
original Pali, please?  If you could spare a little time please check 
it for me:

 A passage in the Atthasalini Atthakatha says, "Called `citta' because 
it renders (things) intricate, in what way?  Truly, normally nothing 
in this world is more intricate than paintings.  Among his paintings, 
the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest.  An artistic 
design (citta-sanna) occurs to the painter while painting masterpieces 
that such pictures should be done in such fashion.  All the intricate 
work that is done, such as drawing, coloring,  highlighting and 
contrasting colors etc. would result from intricate sanna.  In the 
masterpiece a certain intricate rupa would issue from these intricate 
actions or designs.  The rest of the intricate painting would also be 
finished the way the artist had thought out: this rupa is to be above, 
this below, this on the sides, then the creation proceeds accordingly. 
 All the intricate arts in the world [result from the fact] that the 
citta thinks thus.  Similarly, the citta that renders intricate is 
called citta because of its intricate nature and actions, as described 
above. 

  In addition, citta is said to be even more intricate than designs in 
paintings because it creates all art according to the citta's desire. 

(end quote)

I wonder what the original Pali looked like, too.  If you feel this is 
too far advanced, please send it to me off-list whenever you have the 
time, thank you in advance,

Amara
 
40
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 0:07am
Subject: sutta 7: the vaggas
Apologies for taking so long to send out this lesson. The last one was sent
out on Feb. 21! I will try to get lessons out more frequently.

7. kaadii mantaa vaggaa.

7. Beginning with 'ka' (and) ending with 'ma' -- the vaggas.

[ka + aadii (beginning) > kaadii, ma + antaa (ending) > mantaa.
The case inflection at the end of each of the three words are those of the
nominative plural.]

vutti (gloss):
tesa.m kho vya~njanaana.m kakaaraadayo makaarantaa vaggaa naama bhavanti,
seyyathiida.m:

Now of these consonants (see sutta 6), there are namely the vaggas
beginning with the item 'ka' & ending with the item 'ma', as follows:

1. ka kha ga gha "na
2. ca cha ja jha ~na
3. .ta .tha .da .dha .na
4. ta tha da dha na
5. pa pha ba bha ma

tattha pa.thamo kavaggo, dutiyo cavaggo, tatiyo .tavaggo, catuttho tavaggo,
pa~ncamo pavaggo ti pa~ncavidhaa vaggaa.

Therein, are the fivefold vaggas thus:
the first is the kavagga;
the second is the cavagga;
the third is the .tavagga;
the fourth is the tavagga,
the fifth is the pavagga.

==============================

'Vagga' means group or class and its the same word seen in the
Suttantapi.taka where the suttas are generally grouped together in tens
under a name ending in 'vagga'. The Majjhimanikaya, for example, contains 15
vaggas of ten suttas each except for one which has 12, altogether 152
suttas. In the case of this sutta each of the 5 groups contain 5 consonants
and when you come across a term like 'kavagga' it is referring to the group
of 5 consonants beginning with 'ka' ie. ka kha ga gha "na.

Jim
 
41
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 10:03pm
Subject: New Buddhist search engine
Dear Group,
I have made a new page that features a special search engine
which allows simultaneous searching of Theravada buddhist sites.
It already has over 10,000 pages- searchable- and I will
increase this soon. Use the advanced tips to figure out how to
search  efficiently.  www.abhidhamma.org
Rob

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
42
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:33am
Subject: Re: New Buddhist search engine
> I have made a new page that features a special search engine
> which allows simultaneous searching of Theravada buddhist sites.
> It already has over 10,000 pages- searchable- and I will
> increase this soon. Use the advanced tips to figure out how to
> search  efficiently.  www.abhidhamma.org


Dear Rob, 

This sounds great, will check it out.  I really think it should be 
useful for others to know about this too, why don't you post it on DSG 
as well?  There are some messages there for you as well, in case you 
havn't checked lately.  Maybe since you are starting another list you 
will have time to contribute to the old group again?  People are 
saying they miss your beautiful prose and apt quotes!

Amara
 
43
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:46am
Subject: Re: Re: New Buddhist search engine
Dear Amara,
Thank you for the encouragement. I think I will delay the start
of the new list as Sarah rightly pointed out it will make me
busier than ever. I will stay off dsg for a while as I still
have other projects to do. I can read the posts though as I have
the password for escribe. I think you are all doing very well.
Now that Num has joined he looks to be a great help too. He
deserves as much support as possible. If there are any points
where I can help off-line with research let me know .
rob
--- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > I have made a new page that features a special search engine
> > which allows simultaneous searching of Theravada buddhist
> sites.
> > It already has over 10,000 pages- searchable- and I will
> > increase this soon. Use the advanced tips to figure out how
> to
> > search  efficiently.  www.abhidhamma.org
> 
> 
> Dear Rob, 
> 
> This sounds great, will check it out.  I really think it
> should be 
> useful for others to know about this too, why don't you post
> it on DSG 
> as well?  There are some messages there for you as well, in
> case you 
> havn't checked lately.  Maybe since you are starting another
> list you 
> will have time to contribute to the old group again?  People
> are 
> saying they miss your beautiful prose and apt quotes!
> 
> Amara
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
44
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:24am
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas
--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Apologies
for taking so long to send out this
> lesson. The last one was sent
> out on Feb. 21! I will try to get lessons out more
> frequently.

Jim, no need for any apologies....We all keep
distracting you for one thing! Take your time.

For me, I'm trying to memorise the sounds and order so
that by the time the PTS card is produced i won't need
to refer to it...but being busy, this all takes
time...Actually, i find there is a lot of detail in yr
lessons..not like a dsg post that one can often run
through quickly....

I don't know if it would help others if you explain
the order as following the gutterals (unaspirated,
aspirated etc), palatals, retroflexes, dentals,
labials   or whether everyone knows all this. 

Thanks,
Sarah
Sarah

_______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
45
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:32pm
Subject: Fw: translation
Hello group,

Today, I received the following message from pali-intro-l, one of the two
other Pali lists I'm subscribed to. pali-intro-l had been dormant without
any messages posted for months until just this past week. Below is one of
the best messages I've ever seen posted to the list which has well over 100
mostly silent subscribers. If you're interested in subscribing send an email
to: majordomo@w... and in the body just type: subscribe
pali-intro-l (L not 1).

Best wishes,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Thiele Everett <Thiele.Everett@a...>
To: pali-intro-l@n... <pali-intro-l@n...>
Date: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: translation


>
>:   Which Pali grammars do you have? Until now I just have some texts I've
>: got from the web, like Venerable Narada's pali course and A Practical
>: Grammar of the Paali Language, by Charles Duroiselle. Yesterday I've
>: reread a little from Ven. Narada's guide but I think I have to be
>: somewhat systematic in my studies to be able to grasp well the
>: possible declensions, let alone verbal tenses.
>
>Did you have Latin in school? That would make it a lot easier to work
>straight out of a grammar book and dictionary. Lacking that background
>I found it very helpful to work through Warder, and do graded lessons.
>The drawback is that you have to buy the Digha Nikaya and a translation
>which is keyed to the PTS edition, to get the answers to the exercises.
>PTS also sells two good reference paperbacks, one by Geiger, and one by
>Perniola. Ideally, get both :-)
>
>Also, the lines you sent in seemed to be from some verses, perhaps
>uttered by a disciple after the Buddha's Parinibbaana.  The language
>of poetry is much harder than that of the canonical prose, and contains
>many rare and unusual forms. I doubt that any grammar book out
>there covers it all. Perhaps it would be easier to stick to prose texts
>until you feel more at home in the language.
>
>: > The word 'awareness' in your translation comes from 'cetaso' which
>: > is a genitive singular form of ceto or citta, mind/heart.
>
>:     I thought it was the translation of "cetaso", but seemed an strange
>:     translation to me.
>
>I agree that the translation was strange, or at least not very literal.
>Perhaps this is very good for religious literature, but if we are
>trying to learn the language for ourselves then extremely literal
>translations are more helpful, even if they do violence to English usage.
>
>I had an interesting experience comparing IB Horner's translation of a
>sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya with Walshe's. They had very different
>interpretations of some sentences, and the consensus of the group I
>was with, after looking at the Pali, was that Horner had made some
>serious errors. Despite this, her translation was very useful because
>it models the Pali syntax within a somewhat stilted kind of English.
>This is very helpful for beginners, like myself. I can't pick
>up her translations without feeling gratitude for the work that she, and
>many others, have layed down, so that people like us even can consider
>'taking up Pali' with all the materials now at our disposal.
>
>:  Note also that he/she has translated "pajjota" as "flame", instead of
>: "lamp", perhaps to bring up the definition of nibbaana as a fire
>"unbound".
>: There was some hindu practices of that time related to fire, like fire
>: worship (several times mentioned on the suttas) or the image of the
>: goddess(?) Agni. This way, for them it would make a lot of sense to
>: understand the liberation of the mind from the aggregates (khandha) as if
>it
>: was the fire freed from his sustenance - a trunk of a tree is also called
>: "khandha" in paali.
>
>Well, I enjoy that the translator is making a bold interpretation based on
>some cultural studies. It could be worth reading, even though I have to
>admit I prefer more conservative interpretations. (Agni is a god, btw;
>there are masculine nouns ending in -i)
>
>Anyhow, I've undertaken to read the 'Parable of the Saw' in the Majjhima
>Nikaya, so if you're interested we could both look at the opening
>paragraphs and hash out the grammar/vocab etc. jointly here. Now it's time
>to let my kid use the computer. Thanks for getting things rolling here
>with your questions. I wish I were more knowledgable, and hope that
>people can find time to use this forum for group reading of some
>texts.
>
>regards,
>
>--Everett
>
 
46
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 7:14pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas
Dear Sarah,

>--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Apologies
>for taking so long to send out this
>> lesson. The last one was sent
>> out on Feb. 21! I will try to get lessons out more
>> frequently.
>
>Jim, no need for any apologies....We all keep
>distracting you for one thing! Take your time.

>
>For me, I'm trying to memorise the sounds and order so
>that by the time the PTS card is produced i won't need
>to refer to it...but being busy, this all takes
>time...Actually, i find there is a lot of detail in yr
>lessons..not like a dsg post that one can often run
>through quickly....
>
>I don't know if it would help others if you explain
>the order as following the gutterals (unaspirated,
>aspirated etc), palatals, retroflexes, dentals,
>labials   or whether everyone knows all this.

Most of the details about places, instruments, and the manner of
articulation are dealt with in sutta 23 with the gutturals, etc. This is
pretty much covered in the introductory chapter of Warder's Introduction to
Pali. I think that if you were to take a university level Pali course you
probably would go through all this material in the first week. Here, a month
later we're far from being finished. I'm planning to write up something that
would contain all the information about the Pali sounds except sandhi
(another project).

To use the Pali dictionary with ease it is essential to have the dictionary
order of the letters well-memorized. Without this it takes considerably
longer to look up words. I remember when I was getting familiar with this
order of letters, I sometimes got it mixed up with the English alphabetical
order when switching between a Pali dictionary and an English one and vice
versa. It's much more difficult to get used to reading Pali in a different
script such as Devanagari, Burmese, Thai, etc. I can only read Pali in the
Roman, Devanagari, and Burmese scripts. I'd like to learn to read Pali in
the Thai script sometime but I'm not too keen on learning the Sinhalese
script which looks very difficult.

The last sutta on the vaggas has a few problems in it. As I had discussed
the meaning of vagga as 'group', I failed to point out the problem of each
single consonant being called a vagga also which contradicts the meaning of
'group'. The etymology of vagga given is also unusual in that Aggavamsa
derives it from the root 'vagg' which corresponds to the Skt. root 'valg'.
In the PED, there is no mention of 'vagga' as a consonant or a group of
them. The corresponding Skt. is varga (root v.rj). In some ways, Pali is a
harder language to learn than Sanskrit on account of the abundance of
confusing Pali homonyms which is not so in Sanskrit eg. Pali: vagga & vagga,
citta & citta; Sanskrit: valga & varga, citta & citra.

It appears to me that this list is taking on a life of its own and my
feeling is just to let it go where it wants to and hopefully in the right
direction. I find that I'm continually getting side-tracked on a daily basis
and I cannot keep up with responding to many of the messages that I want to
respond to. Yesterday, I was checking Amara's translation with the Pali and
found that this is a much more difficult job than at first appeared. For one
thing, I'm not at all familiar with that particular passage in the
Atthasalini and the same goes for most Pali passages in any text. When I
start digging into a text I soon realize how little I understand it. One
could easily spend hundreds of hours researching a single Pali paragraph and
still not fully understand it, but at least one will be making some
progress.

I hope to find more time to respond to some of your other messages.

Best wishes,
Jim

47
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 0:57am
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
> I find that I'm continually getting side-tracked on a daily basis
> and I cannot keep up with responding to many of the messages that I 
want to
> respond to. Yesterday, I was checking Amara's translation with the 
Pali and
> found that this is a much more difficult job than at first appeared. 
For one
> thing, I'm not at all familiar with that particular passage in the
> Atthasalini and the same goes for most Pali passages in any text. 
When I
> start digging into a text I soon realize how little I understand it. 
One
> could easily spend hundreds of hours researching a single Pali 
paragraph and
> still not fully understand it, but at least one will be making some
> progress.
> 
> I hope to find more time to respond to some of your other messages.



Dear Jim,

Just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate all your kindnesses both 
here and elsewhere.  Please take as much time as you like and I will 
go over your previous lessons and try to memorize the letters.  I'm 
really grateful that you're checking the translation, it will go in 
the book that will soon be printed, so I would like it to be at least 
close to the original.  It was indeed the hardest passage to translate 
in the book!  The idea itself is quite clear unlike other, harder 
parts about the dhamma, but the language was close to unintelligible 
to me at the time, though in Thai!

Again, thank you and anumodana,

Amara				

48
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:36pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
Dear jim,
 The corresponding Skt. is varga (root v.rj). In some
> ways, Pali is a
> harder language to learn than Sanskrit on account of the
> abundance of
> confusing Pali homonyms which is not so in Sanskrit eg. Pali:
> vagga & vagga,
> citta & citta; Sanskrit: valga & varga, citta & citra.
> 
> It appears to me that this list is taking on a life of its own
> and my
> feeling is just to let it go where it wants to and hopefully
> in the right
> direction. I find that I'm continually getting side-tracked on
> a daily basis
> and I cannot keep up with responding to many of the messages
> that I want to
> respond to. 
Dear Jim,
please don't respond to this unless you feel it is essential. I
was just curious about citta &citta. Are there two different
words here? (only reply if it is easy and not time consuming.

Thanks for posting this on dsg>>>>>Then another split
hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel
to the shaft
and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at
a distance
of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from
the
egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair
with the
hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture
it. This
sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is
to realize
nibbana.>>>
Contrast this with a statement derick (new to dsg) made on d-l
yesterday: ""I think that we are more fortunate then those
people who
lived 500-1000 years after the Buddha.  Primarily because, we
have had such
a long period of time to filter out all the bullshit.  
What it really comes down to, whether your Mahayana or not, is
mindfulness and the four noble truths.>>>
  
People think it is all so straightforward. And so, like an arrow
badly aimed, they go to the wrong target.

rob



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49
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 6:28pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
Dear Robert,

> The corresponding Skt. is varga (root v.rj). In some
>> ways, Pali is a
>> harder language to learn than Sanskrit on account of the
>> abundance of
>> confusing Pali homonyms which is not so in Sanskrit eg. Pali:
>> vagga & vagga,
>> citta & citta; Sanskrit: valga & varga, citta & citra.

>Dear Jim,
>please don't respond to this unless you feel it is essential. I
>was just curious about citta &citta. Are there two different
>words here? (only reply if it is easy and not time consuming.

This is just the kind of question that gets top priority as I have been
studying the etymology of citta ever since Amara posted her translation of
the Atthaasalini passage on the masterpiece for me to check with the Pali
original. I'm still studying 'citta' and there is still a long way to go and
I know I won't be able to solve all the mysteries for a very long time. What
I know so far is that there are not just two cittas to distinguish but
three. Here are the three that derive from 3 different roots:

1. from the root 'cint' -- with citta in the meaning of 'it knows
distinctively' (vijaanaati). The prefix 'vi' has several meanings and I
notice that in the Expositor it is translated as 'variously' (vividha) which
I question as I have not found any explanation so far that states that this
is the associated meaning. However, I did find a 'visi.t.tha' in the SN com
which seems to support the interpretation of citta knowing the object
distinctively which suggests a further notion of citta distinguishing
different objects. So here I raise the red (danger) flag for 'is aware
variously'.

2. from the root 'ci' + affix 'tta' (= Skt. ci+tra > citra). ci means to
collect, gather, accumulate. I don't see anything in the dictionaries
showing citta/citra in this sense. The As uses abhidhamma language to
explain it so somewhat being uncertain I think the meaning is: it
accumulates/gathers a series (santaana) by way of the javana-process(es).

3. from the root 'citt' (Skt. citr) -- (a) to create a picture (b) ?show a
wonder/miracle. It is this citta/citra that pertains to the passage about
painting in the As.

All three roots are documented in the Saddaniti as well as in Panini's
Dhatupatha which could go back as far as the 4th cent. BCE with perhaps
even earlier versions (no longer extant) coming before the Buddha.
Jonothan posted a passage from B. Bodhi's new translation of SN (22.100)
and I was shocked by his 'Faring on' for cara.na which strikes me as a
painting's title (like in an art gallery or book of famous paintings). Last
night I studied the sutta's SN com. and tika after which it seems clear
that this a class name for a type of painting. Cara.na = wandering,
travelling relates to a travelling art show. If I have interpreted Bodhi's
translation the way he intended it then it seems to me that we're witnessing
the disappearance of the saasana right before our very eyes!

Best wishes,
Jim				

50
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:34pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for all this. Khun Sujin has gone into alot
of detail about the meaning of citta and i am sure you would
find some of this interesting. I just received ven. bodhi's
latest translation of the samyutta nikaya and have noted he
occasionally seems free to depart from the ancient commentaries
when it suits his interpretations. I hadn't noticed that in his
much earlier work. 
rob
--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> > The corresponding Skt. is varga (root v.rj). In some
> >> ways, Pali is a
> >> harder language to learn than Sanskrit on account of the
> >> abundance of
> >> confusing Pali homonyms which is not so in Sanskrit eg.
> Pali:
> >> vagga & vagga,
> >> citta & citta; Sanskrit: valga & varga, citta & citra.
> 
> >Dear Jim,
> >please don't respond to this unless you feel it is essential.
> I
> >was just curious about citta &citta. Are there two different
> >words here? (only reply if it is easy and not time consuming.
> 
> This is just the kind of question that gets top priority as I
> have been
> studying the etymology of citta ever since Amara posted her
> translation of
> the Atthaasalini passage on the masterpiece for me to check
> with the Pali
> original. I'm still studying 'citta' and there is still a long
> way to go and
> I know I won't be able to solve all the mysteries for a very
> long time. What
> I know so far is that there are not just two cittas to
> distinguish but
> three. Here are the three that derive from 3 different roots:
> 
> 1. from the root 'cint' -- with citta in the meaning of 'it
> knows
> distinctively' (vijaanaati). The prefix 'vi' has several
> meanings and I
> notice that in the Expositor it is translated as 'variously'
> (vividha) which
> I question as I have not found any explanation so far that
> states that this
> is the associated meaning. However, I did find a 'visi.t.tha'
> in the SN com
> which seems to support the interpretation of citta knowing the
> object
> distinctively which suggests a further notion of citta
> distinguishing
> different objects. So here I raise the red (danger) flag for
> 'is aware
> variously'.
> 
> 2. from the root 'ci' + affix 'tta' (= Skt. ci+tra > citra).
> ci means to
> collect, gather, accumulate. I don't see anything in the
> dictionaries
> showing citta/citra in this sense. The As uses abhidhamma
> language to
> explain it so somewhat being uncertain I think the meaning is:
> it
> accumulates/gathers a series (santaana) by way of the
> javana-process(es).
> 
> 3. from the root 'citt' (Skt. citr) -- (a) to create a picture
> (b) ?show a
> wonder/miracle. It is this citta/citra that pertains to the
> passage about
> painting in the As.
> 
> All three roots are documented in the Saddaniti as well as in
> Panini's
> Dhatupatha which could go back as far as the 4th cent. BCE
> with perhaps
> even earlier versions (no longer extant) coming before the
> Buddha.
> Jonothan posted a passage from B. Bodhi's new translation of
> SN (22.100)
> and I was shocked by his 'Faring on' for cara.na which strikes
> me as a
> painting's title (like in an art gallery or book of famous
> paintings). Last
> night I studied the sutta's SN com. and tika after which it
> seems clear
> that this a class name for a type of painting. Cara.na =
> wandering,
> travelling relates to a travelling art show. If I have
> interpreted Bodhi's
> translation the way he intended it then it seems to me that
> we're witnessing
> the disappearance of the saasana right before our very eyes!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 


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51
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 6:18pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
Dear Jim,

Citta....This is very interesting. It seems that when
we use 'citta' we often use it as combining all three
meanings, i.e. to know, to accumulate and to create a
picture....it's very complex. Perhaps we could say
that in the different contexts, there is a different
emphasis? I'll follow up your refs when I have time.

Next for the translation which we need to keep using
on dsg and for articles and books. Amara, I notice
that you keep 'citta' in the msterpiece but in your
writings, recently. you use intelligence which I must
say I find a very strange translation and a rather
confusing one because of all the English connotations
we have for intelligence (sorry about that!)...but
it's not easy. Usually it's been translated by us as
consciousness or the reality which knows an object,
but this is a real mouthful to have to use everytime
on dsg. Mmmm...

Jim, thanks also for enclosing the good article from
the other pali list... well, we both clocked up many
years of latin at school and I'm wondering how, apart
from understanding the noun declensions more easily,
it helps and what Latin and Pali/Sanskrit originally
had in common? (v.brief is fine...) This is the sort
of info I hear and forget and ask again 5 or 10yrs
later!
Sarah

p.s i was caught making g,gh,k,kh noises as I walked
on the Peak yesterday!


--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear 
> 1. from the root 'cint' -- with citta in the meaning
> of 'it knows
> distinctively' (vijaanaati). The prefix 'vi' has
> several meanings and I
> notice that in the Expositor it is translated as
> 'variously' (vividha) which
> I question as I have not found any explanation so
> far that states that this
> is the associated meaning. However, I did find a
> 'visi.t.tha' in the SN com
> which seems to support the interpretation of citta
> knowing the object
> distinctively which suggests a further notion of
> citta distinguishing
> different objects. So here I raise the red (danger)
> flag for 'is aware
> variously'.
> 
> 2. from the root 'ci' + affix 'tta' (= Skt. ci+tra >
> citra). ci means to
> collect, gather, accumulate. I don't see anything in
> the dictionaries
> showing citta/citra in this sense. The As uses
> abhidhamma language to
> explain it so somewhat being uncertain I think the
> meaning is: it
> accumulates/gathers a series (santaana) by way of
> the javana-process(es).
> 
> 3. from the root 'citt' (Skt. citr) -- (a) to create
> a picture (b) ?show a
> wonder/miracle. It is this citta/citra that pertains
> to the passage about
> painting in the As.


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52
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:47pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
Dear Sarah,

>Citta....This is very interesting. It seems that when
>we use 'citta' we often use it as combining all three
>meanings, i.e. to know, to accumulate and to create a
>picture....it's very complex. Perhaps we could say
>that in the different contexts, there is a different
>emphasis? I'll follow up your refs when I have time.

'Citta' is turning out to be quite complicated word! Maybe it would be
easier to think of 'citta' in the meaning of 'it knows (distinctly)' as the
main one and to think of the other two meanings as supplementary ones to
think about. If it were all in Sanskrit, this would not work so well as we
would have to use the spelling 'citra' for the last two meanings. But Pali
homonymy makes it possible to speak of all three cittas as if they were the
same word when in fact they're derived from 3 separate roots.

I'm really unclear about 'citta' in the third meaning relating to
picture/painting. The problem is with the other meanings such as
'variegated' and Amara's 'intricate'. Which comes earlier? Did the notion of
picture come out of the idea of intricateness or was it the other way
around? I should point out that 'creating/painting a picture' is only one
interpretation of 'cittakara.na'. Another one is 'make/render
variegated/intricate/elaborate'.

Is it citta because of its intricateness or because of its picture-nature?
Is is citta because of its nature of making intricate or because of its
nature of creating a picture?

<snip (for Amara)>

>Jim, thanks also for enclosing the good article from
>the other pali list... well, we both clocked up many
>years of latin at school and I'm wondering how, apart
>from understanding the noun declensions more easily,
>it helps and what Latin and Pali/Sanskrit originally
>had in common? (v.brief is fine...) This is the sort
>of info I hear and forget and ask again 5 or 10yrs
>later!

I took three years of Latin in high-school and that was over 35 years ago!
I've long thought of Greek and Latin as being the Western counterparts of
Sanskrit and Pali. I have studied a bit of classical Greek and notice that
it is more elaborate than Latin with similarities to Sanskrit. One thing
they all have in common is that they are quite old languages not normally
spoken nowadays. How else a knowledge of Latin can help one in learning
Pali is something I haven't thought about before and too a hard one for me
to answer in a short time.

These languages including English all belong to the same family of
Indo-European languages and it is thought that they originally come from one
common ancestral language now extinct (at least on the terrestrial plane).

Best wishes,
Jim				

53
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
> Next for the translation which we need to keep using
> on dsg and for articles and books. Amara, I notice
> that you keep 'citta' in the msterpiece but in your
> writings, recently. you use intelligence which I must
> say I find a very strange translation and a rather
> confusing one because of all the English connotations
> we have for intelligence (sorry about that!)...but
> it's not easy. Usually it's been translated by us as
> consciousness or the reality which knows an object,
> but this is a real mouthful to have to use everytime
> on dsg. Mmmm...



Dear friends,

Perhaps with the three meanings of citta we might reconsider whether 
the translation of consciousness is adequate since to me it implies a 
degree of awareness of what one is doing.  Yet even in a coma or a 
deep sleep the citta is still there at each instant, as the bhavanga 
citta, (with some arammana from the past life which does not appear 
through any of the present life's dvara) as object.  Therefore to 
translate it as the 'consciousness' (of a comatic person for example) 
would be more confusing to me than the 'intelligence' of a sleeping 
person: you know it's there.  Which is certainly impossible in 'the 
intelligence of a dead body', for example.  To me it seems more 
precise; too bad the early master translators of the Tipitaka hadn't 
chosen this term.  Beside, I really think it fits with the three 
meanings more closely, consciousness alone seems to fall short of the 
wonders of the citta to know, accumulate and create all at once.  Even 
intelligence wouldn't cover it all, but it is more precise than 
consciousness to my mind, pardon my departure from the translation 
tradition.  What do you think, Jim?  I greatly value your opinion even 
if I might beg to differ in the end!  (You will all find out why KS 
calls me stubborn, even if it was not in the dhamma context!)  I'll 
probably end up sent to the corner of this class with the dunce cap!

Which is why I am rather glad I translated my first dhamma book (in 
fact any book at all!) without having much idea of any of the Pali 
terms beforehand and went uniquely by what Khun Sujin explained in the 
book itself.  Which might not be what is found in any dictionary but 
certainly in the Tipitaka.  One example no other dict. would carry is 
perhaps the meaning of 'loka' as something that is subject to 
destruction, not only sphere, continent, world, and plane or dimension 
of birth.  But as Khun Sujin explained, it is the definition used by 
the Buddha somewhere in the Tipitaka, (I forget her source, but it's 
there in the book).  Our glossary will contain all her explanations, 
or as much as there is in the 'Summary', perhaps more as Varee finds 
new terms in others of our translations.  By the way if anyone finds 
anything they want to add to the gloss please send it in, I would 
greatly appreciate it.  Uniquely Pali vocabulary found in any of KS' 
writings, tapes or oral explanations, please, to keep it from turning 
into the ordinary elephant size dict.  We're aiming at just a rather 
comprehensive dhamma gloss to use with her teachings.  As Nina 
mentioned, there is a detailed lexicon by K. Santi, a foundation 
lecturer, (in Thai) already, an entire book in itself.  Nina said she 
used his work in her translations, perhaps she might translate that 
work one day if she finds the time, it is quite comprehensive in its 
own rights, often using an entire page or more to explain one 
complicated word.  

Thanks for giving me the chance to explain all this, Sarah, and thank 
you, Jim, for creating this invaluable class, I hope you don't mind my 
airing my arguments here as it concerns the Pali also, even if rather 
peripherally.  (I'm hoping he doesn't send us both packing for dsg, 
Sarah!)

Amara				

54
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:39pm
Subject: Re: sutta 7: the vaggas				
> 'Citta' is turning out to be quite complicated word! Maybe it would 
be
> easier to think of 'citta' in the meaning of 'it knows (distinctly)' 
as the
> main one and to think of the other two meanings as supplementary 
ones to
> think about. If it were all in Sanskrit, this would not work so well 
as we
> would have to use the spelling 'citra' for the last two meanings. 
But Pali
> homonymy makes it possible to speak of all three cittas as if they 
were the
> same word when in fact they're derived from 3 separate roots.
> 
> I'm really unclear about 'citta' in the third meaning relating to
> picture/painting. The problem is with the other meanings such as
> 'variegated' and Amara's 'intricate'. Which comes earlier? Did the 
notion of
> picture come out of the idea of intricateness or was it the other 
way
> around? I should point out that 'creating/painting a picture' is 
only one
> interpretation of 'cittakara.na'. Another one is 'make/render
> variegated/intricate/elaborate'.
> 
> Is it citta because of its intricateness or because of its 
picture-nature?
> Is is citta because of its nature of making intricate or because of 
its
> nature of creating a picture?
> <snip (for Amara)>

Dear Jim

I am almost certain the first motivations to paint or create any art 
was man's attachment to his experiences: ie through the intricacy of 
his citta he first perceives and then becomes attached to all the 
arammana. Then in his attachment to the self, and therefore all that 
the self experiences as something pertaining to the self, as 'this is 
what I see,' etc. there probably comes the idea of 'keeping this for 
later, too' and therefore attempt at duplication.  Without first 
seeing an object, would one even know what it is like, much less 
become attached to it enough to make a souvenir of it, not trusting 
one's memory?  Or perhaps to show others what one had seen?  In any 
case the seeing comes first, the noting of all the different details 
to be captured to keep, or to share, or even to show off.  (Although 
in its creating other arts as well as itself as anantara paccaya it 
might increase its creative accumulations as well.  The first quality 
doesn't exclude the second, though not vice-versa)  As in an ancient 
quote, 'citta leads the world'

Am I being graded, sir?

Amara



> >Jim, thanks also for enclosing the good article from
> >the other pali list... well, we both clocked up many
> >years of latin at school and I'm wondering how, apart
> >from understanding the noun declensions more easily,
> >it helps and what Latin and Pali/Sanskrit originally
> >had in common? (v.brief is fine...) This is the sort
> >of info I hear and forget and ask again 5 or 10yrs
> >later!
> 
> I took three years of Latin in high-school and that was over 35 
years ago!
> I've long thought of Greek and Latin as being the Western 
counterparts of
> Sanskrit and Pali. I have studied a bit of classical Greek and 
notice that
> it is more elaborate than Latin with similarities to Sanskrit. One 
thing
> they all have in common is that they are quite old languages not 
normally
> spoken nowadays. How else a knowledge of Latin can help one in 
learning
> Pali is something I haven't thought about before and too a hard one 
for me
> to answer in a short time.
> 
> These languages including English all belong to the same family of
> Indo-European languages and it is thought that they originally come 
from one
> common ancestral language now extinct (at least on the terrestrial 
plane).
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim				

55
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:11pm
Subject: meanings of citta				
Dear Amara,

>> Is it citta because of its intricateness or because of its
>picture-nature?
>> Is is citta because of its nature of making intricate or because of
>its
>> nature of creating a picture?
>> <snip (for Amara)>
>
>Dear Jim
>
>I am almost certain the first motivations to paint or create any art
>was man's attachment to his experiences: ie through the intricacy of
>his citta he first perceives and then becomes attached to all the
>arammana. Then in his attachment to the self, and therefore all that
>the self experiences as something pertaining to the self, as 'this is
>what I see,' etc. there probably comes the idea of 'keeping this for
>later, too' and therefore attempt at duplication.  Without first
>seeing an object, would one even know what it is like, much less
>become attached to it enough to make a souvenir of it, not trusting
>one's memory?  Or perhaps to show others what one had seen?  In any
>case the seeing comes first, the noting of all the different details
>to be captured to keep, or to share, or even to show off.  (Although
>in its creating other arts as well as itself as anantara paccaya it
>might increase its creative accumulations as well.  The first quality
>doesn't exclude the second, though not vice-versa)  As in an ancient
>quote, 'citta leads the world'

Thanks for your response. I don't quite follow you here and would rather not
pursue it any further as I think it's moving away from the study of Pali.
Yesterday, I looked at the Summary, Part II for the so-called five
characteristics of citta. Are there just these five? Do you know what  Pali
word 'characteristics' is representing? I usually think of lakkha.na for
characteristic but I hardly think it applies here. I know that these five
so-called characteristics are discussed in the Atthasalini passage on citta
(63ff) and they can be traced back to the three roots (cint, ci, citt) that
I mentioned earlier. Out of the five characteristics, one belongs to cint, 2
to ci, and 2 to citt. The last 2 (citt) are: 1. citta because of its
intricateness or picture-nature (cittataaya) and 2. because of its
picture-creating nature (or your 'because it renders (things) intricate')
(cittakara.nataaya). The PED has a 'cittataa' entry that applies here but
strangely does not give a meaning. I think it comes down to determining
whether the 'citta' in these compounds is an adjective (intricate,
variegated, etc.) or a noun (picture or perhaps another word). I'm still
undecided about which. I prefer to use the word 'picture' instead of
'painting' because it can be applied to both the mind and paintings.
>
>Am I being graded, sir?

Not at all, ma'am.

Jim				

56
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:01pm
Subject: Re: meanings of citta				
Dear Jim,


Actually I was answering your firs question also:
'Which comes earlier? Did the notion of picture come out of the idea 
of intricateness or was it the other way around?'

So, the meaning of citta, second try:
 
> >> Is it citta because of its intricateness or because of its
> >picture-nature?
> >> Is is citta because of its nature of making intricate or because 
of
> >its
> >> nature of creating a picture?
> >> <snip (for Amara)>


The first would come first, to my mind.  Which does not mean it does 
not have both characteristics, as described in the first and the 
second.  But to me the second could not come before the first, since 
you asked 'what comes earlier'.  

Is this any better?



> Yesterday, I looked at the Summary, Part II for the so-called five
> characteristics of citta. Are there just these five? Do you know 
what  Pali
> word 'characteristics' is representing? I usually think of lakkha.na 
for
> characteristic but I hardly think it applies here. I know that these 
five
> so-called characteristics are discussed in the Atthasalini passage 
on citta
> (63ff) and they can be traced back to the three roots (cint, ci, 
citt) that
> I mentioned earlier. Out of the five characteristics, one belongs to 
cint, 2
> to ci, and 2 to citt. The last 2 (citt) are: 1. citta because of its
> intricateness or picture-nature (cittataaya) and 2. because of its
> picture-creating nature (or your 'because it renders (things) 
intricate')
> (cittakara.nataaya). The PED has a 'cittataa' entry that applies 
here but
> strangely does not give a meaning. I think it comes down to 
determining
> whether the 'citta' in these compounds is an adjective (intricate,
> variegated, etc.) or a noun (picture or perhaps another word). I'm 
still
> undecided about which. I prefer to use the word 'picture' instead of
> 'painting' because it can be applied to both the mind and paintings.
> >
> >Am I being graded, sir?
> 
> Not at all, ma'am.
> 
> Jim


I'm glad, because as I said, I have no idea what the original Pali 
looks like, I translated it rather freely from the Thai translation as 
quoted in the 'Summary'.  I could not make much sense of what was 
there and could not believe that it was correctly translated, so I 
decided to translate it according to my own understandings instead of 
a litteral translation, the only place where I did this in the entire 
book, which is why I was really worried about the adequacy of the 
English version, as it is under is my sole responsibility.

I am eternally grateful for this chance of verifying my rendering of 
this passage against the original Pali while I can still make 
corrections to the book about to be printed,

Amara				

57
From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:12pm
Subject: Re: Bh. Bodhi SN translation				
Jim
Here's the full text of the Bh. Bodhi translation
mentioned in an earlier message.  It contains BB's
reasons for his choice of terms.
Jon

SN I, III, 100 The Leash [CDB p. 958]

Bhikkhus, have you seen the picture called Faring
On?"[206]?
Yes, venerable sir.
Even that picture called Faring On has been
designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is
even more diverse than that picture called Faring
On.[207]

Footnotes [CDB p.1088]

206	Cara.na.m nama citta.m.  
Citta here is the equivalent of Skt citra, picture. 
The exact meaning of the pictures title is obscure. 
Spk glosses vicara.nacitta, the wandering picture
[Spk-pt:  because they take it and wander about with
it], but cara.na here possibly means conduct, as in
other contexts.
Spk: The Sankha were a sect of heretical brahmins. 
Having taken a canvas, they had various pictures
painted on it of the good and bad destinations to
illustrate success and failure, and then they took it
around on their wanderings.  They would show it to the
people, explaining, If one does this deed, one gets
this result; if one does that, one gets that.

207	Tam pi ... cara.na.m naama citta.m citten eva
cittita.m, tena pi ... cara.nena cittena citta~n~neva
cittatara.m.  
There are several puns here that cannot be
successfully conveyed in translation (nor even in Skt
for that matter).  Citta is both mind (as in Skt) and
picture (=Skt citra).  Cittita (Ee: cintita) is
thought out (related to citta, mind) and
diversified (related to citra, picture).  I have
used designed in its diversity to capture both
nuances.  
As 64-65 quotes this passage in its discussion of how
mind designs the world.



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58
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 0:30pm
Subject: Num : Hi from a brand new member				
Hi all,

Greeting from a new student.  If I may request, be patient with me ok.  
Little Pali background and terrible in studying language. :)

Num


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]				


59
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:05pm
Subject: psg news				
Dear group,

As you probably know, we have a new member. Welcome to the group, Num!
It is good to have you with us. Num, I have uploaded the file of 1687 Pali
roots (p1-rts-7.txt) to the files page which is accessible from the
palistudy home page. It is small (about 39 KB) and in a text format using
the style of writing Pali that I normally use. Anyone else here can also get
a copy of it if desired. Some years ago I typed all the roots listed in H.
Smith's edn. of Aggava.msa's Saddaniti and this list is the most
comprehensive of three such lists available to us. I also have a list of
over 2000 Sanskrit roots which I'm still proofreading and will upload this
as soon as I'm finished.

Jonothan, thank you for posting B. Bodhi's notes on the Sutta passage. I
will give it some study later and perhaps respond with some comments.
His:"[Spk-pt:  because they take it and wander about with it], but cara.na
here possibly means conduct, as in other contexts." indicates to me that
he's not sure of the meaning of 'cara.na' in the passage.

To the group, it has been a week since I posted the last sutta from the
Saddaniti. The next one will be on the niggahiita which I hope to get out
soon. I have found that after starting this group my workload has increased
considerably. There is so much more to respond to and to keep up with but it
has all been very enjoyable and rewarding for me. I hope that you can all
put up with my slow pace and that you're not in any hurry to learn Pali.
Just stick around as I'm pretty sure we'll all become much more
knowledgeable about the Pali language and its texts over the course of time.

For now, the rules and guidelines for psg are the same ones that Jon & Sarah
have worked out for dsg. I would ask that in responding to messages that you
try to remember to trim off the unneccessary portions of the messages.

Best wishes,
Jim				


60
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:52pm
Subject: Re: Num : Hi from a brand new member				
> Hi all,
> 
> Greeting from a new student.  If I may request, be patient with me 
ok.  
> Little Pali background and terrible in studying language. :)
> 
> Num


Hi, Num, 

Glad to have you with us!  Pali would definitely be the best language 
to add to your list of things to study, I think.  And Jim the best 
and most thorough teacher!  

Amara				

61
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:54pm
Subject: Re: psg news				

> For now, the rules and guidelines for psg are the same ones that Jon 
& Sarah
> have worked out for dsg. I would ask that in responding to messages 
that you
> try to remember to trim off the unneccessary portions of the 
messages.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

I suppose this means me, and my faulty memory, which makes me wonder 
if you saw the end of my last message?  Please disregard this if you 
did already,

Amara				


62
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 8:32pm
Subject: Num : orientation
Hi all,

Just like to ask for some orientation of how to start studying pali.  Where 
and how to?  I downloaded "a Practical Grammar of the Pali Language," by 
Charles Duroiselle, which is in http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/ , as posted 
in the bookmark of the site.         Any guideline?   I just would like to 
know some directions so I can plan and prioritize my time and schedule.

Thanks,

Num

63 [Deleted]
 
64
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:34am
Subject: Apologies
Dear Jim, and everyone, 

I am very sorry I sent what was meant to be a private note to Num to 
the list by mistake, idoit that I am.  I am completely mortified, I 
don't know how anyone could ever forgive me, especially Jim.

Jim, I am ever so sorry I have hurt your feelings, you are a great 
friend whom I respect ever so much,

Amara
 
65
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Num : orientation
Dear Num (Amara, see below),

>Hi all,
>
>Just like to ask for some orientation of how to start studying pali.  Where
>and how to?  I downloaded "a Practical Grammar of the Pali Language," by
>Charles Duroiselle, which is in http://www.metta.lk/pali-utils/ , as posted
>in the bookmark of the site.         Any guideline?   I just would like to
>know some directions so I can plan and prioritize my time and schedule.

I think you already know a bit about the Pali language. I have been putting
some focus on the study of the sound system of Pali according to Aggava.msa
and so far the lessons on only 7 of the 23 suttas have been posted. For now
Pali phonology is the main theme until we have reached sutta 23 which gives
many details on the places, instruments, and manner of articulation. I have
been recommending that everyone should memorize the 41 Pali sounds in the
traditional order. It is also good to know the dictionary order of letters
as used in modern Pali-English dictionaries where the '.m' comes between 'o'
& 'k' and the '.l' comes after 'l'. You can also study the treatment of the
Pali sounds in whatever book you have access to including Duroiselle's &
Narada's. The best treatment I know of apart from Aggava.msa's is found in
Warder's Introduction to Pali.

As Amara pointed out the pace is rather slow around here. I guess that's
partly because I'm no fast-paced city-slicker myself -- just a slow-moving
middle-aged guy puttering around in the backwoods. This group has only just
started and it'll take time before it gets its feet on the ground. After we
get through the material on the Pali sounds, I thought we could start
working on a randomly picked paragraph-sized sutta from SN or AN. During
the meantime you are free to study on your own and post questions on
anything relating to Pali. It's pretty much a free-wheeling group willing to
go anywhere as long as it's to do with the Pali language and its texts.

To Amara: I found that on re-reading your response to Num that it doesn't
sound all that bad. Anyway, you're completely forgiven.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
66
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Mar 15, 2001 10:05pm
Subject: Re: Num : orientation
> To Amara: I found that on re-reading your response to Num that it 
doesn't
> sound all that bad. Anyway, you're completely forgiven.


Dear Jim,

Thank you, Jim.

Amara

PS.  Actually your life sounds more ascetic than that of the bhikkhus 
I see everyday.  Anumodana in all your kusala cetana!
 
67
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:46pm
Subject: psg update
Dear all,

A half month has gone by with no message posted except this one. I have been
busy corresponding off-list with Sarah & Amara on health issues as a result
of Amara's accidental post that disclosed that I had Usher Syndrome. The
health issue subject is still very much alive and on my mind especially in
view that there is some hope that it can be cured. There is a possibility
that I may be going to HK next January for 3 months of treatment by Sarah &
Jon's doctor. So as you can well imagine there's a lot going on in my mind
these days besides palistudy. Events are still happening and I don't know
when the situation will return back to normal. Hopefully sooner than later.
For me to give sustained attention to Pali study there can't be too many
other things occupying my attention. Also in about two weeks time I'll be
away for two weeks from my Pali library but will be able to stay online
during this period and may still be able to help.

I will make an effort to write further contributions but there may be more
delays depending on what else is happening with the health situation. Feel
free to ask questions here relating to Pali and I will do my best to answer
them.

Thank you for your patience,

Jim
 
68
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2001 5:50pm
Subject: Re: psg update
Hi Jim,

Appreciate your concern about psg.  Hope your mind and body get some rest.  I 
don't know much about Usher syndrome. I remember learning some of it in med. 
school and lately there are some papers about gene mapping for Usher syndrome.

I think you probably have searched and got a lot of information about the 
syndrome as well as the treatment.  Let me add that every treatment has it's 
risk and benefit.  So please do ask your doctor at every aspect of the 
disease, risk/benefit of treatment, alternative treatment including no 
treatment as well as prognosis.  

Thanks for sharing your health inf. with us.

Take good care of both your mind and body and get some rest.

Hope you feel better.

Pali study student.
Num
 
69
From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@alum.mit.edu> 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 3:33am
Subject: RE: Num : orientation
Dear Khun Amara,

Sorry to eavesdrop on the conversation with you and K. Num
here.  I have to confess: I have always had problems
identifying myself as being young, and being Thai (or
Chinese, or American, etc.)  Since I study dhamma, I have
understood better why that is.  Thainess has no paramattha
characteristics!

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: amara chay [mailto:joychay@h...]
> young men (all Thais!!!  I'm so proud!) although
 
70
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:18am
Subject: Re: Num : orientation
--- In palistudy@y..., "Kom Tukovinit" <kom@a...> wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> Sorry to eavesdrop on the conversation with you and K. Num
> here.  I have to confess: I have always had problems
> identifying myself as being young, and being Thai (or
> Chinese, or American, etc.)  Since I study dhamma, I have
> understood better why that is.  Thainess has no paramattha
> characteristics!
> 
> kom
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: amara chay [mailto:joychay@h...]
> > young men (all Thais!!!  I'm so proud!) although


Dear K. Kom,

I sent out a reply to this hours ago, I guess it got lost but if not 
please ignore the duplicate:

What would I do without all my friends' comments and corrections when 
I make my careless mistakes!!!  Once again you are right, all these 
have no characteristics in the paramatthadhamma sense.  Thanks for all 
the times you have kept me from misleading people about the dhamma, 
which I think is a vital issue not to be misrepresented in the least.

But to cross refer to the dsg ongoing discussion between us, don't you 
think Sarah is right about the upadana and different levels of 
paccaya?  I haven't had time to check the details, and will not be 
there for the Sat. ED nor will be seeing TA for at least 14 days, but 
perhaps you could follow through in the meantime with Sarah's 
response.  An amendment doesn't seem to be in order?

Also, conventionally I remember you are a year or two younger than my 
nephew Alain, so I am definitely old enough to be your aunt!

 =^_^= A.A. =^_^=
 ('Auntie' Amara)
 
71
From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@alum.mit.edu> 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 10:31am
Subject: RE: Re: Num : orientation
Dear Na (Aunt) Amara,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara [mailto:joychay@h...]
>
> But to cross refer to the dsg ongoing discussion
> between us, don't you
> think Sarah is right about the upadana and
> different levels of
> paccaya?  I haven't had time to check the
> details, and will not be
> there for the Sat. ED nor will be seeing TA for
> at least 14 days, but
> perhaps you could follow through in the meantime
> with Sarah's
> response.  An amendment doesn't seem to be in order?

I am sure Sarah is right about how Dosa can condition Lobha
to arise.  I haven't had the chance to read it thoroughly
yet, but perhaps by the upcoming weekend.

>
> Also, conventionally I remember you are a year or
> two younger than my
> nephew Alain, so I am definitely old enough to be
> your aunt!
>

Yes, in that case, you have at least three nephews in this
group.  It's an interesting co-incidence that the three of
us (K. Num, K. Jaran, and I) ran into TA. Sujin, DSG, an PSG
at about the same age.  Conventionally (even with the
pannatti "pointing" to paramatha), I can think of many
kusala characteractics of many people in this group, so it
would be easy to call people aunts, uncles, older brother,
etc.

Nephew kom
 
72
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 11:11am
Subject: Re: Num : orientation
>I am sure Sarah is right about how Dosa can condition Lobha
>to arise.  I haven't had the chance to read it thoroughly
>yet, but perhaps by the upcoming weekend.

Dear K. Kom,

I knew I could count on you to do that!  I must say I thought you 
would wait til you had studied it before replying, but thanks for the 
preliminary affirmation all the same.  I feel more secure in the 
absence of handy references to discuss things when I know that you 
won't let any mistakes pass and make people misunderstand the dhamma 
because of my misunderstanding or carelessness!  As I said to Sarah, 
if you guys ever get tired of damage control just shout and I'll stop 
writing!!!

>Yes, in that case, you have at least three nephews in this
>group.  It's an interesting co-incidence that the three of
>us (K. Num, K. Jaran, and I) ran into TA. Sujin, DSG, an PSG
>at about the same age.  Conventionally (even with the
>pannatti "pointing" to paramatha), I can think of many
>kusala characteractics of many people in this group, so it
>would be easy to call people aunts, uncles, older brother,


This is sweet of you, perhaps you could just address me as AA among 
ourselves, (others in my age group might not want to feel too 
ancient).  Whereas sometimes I need to feel 'mature', I guess  Maybe 
mentally I'm still my mother's youngest child, what do you think, K. 
Num?  How do you stop being that, even conventionally?  Of course the 
dhamma liberates us from even that, who are we but nama and rupa, all 
of us!!!

Sorry for all the non-Pali prattle, High Priest Jim of the Pali Order!

Amara
 
73
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 8:25am
Subject: Re: Re: Num : orientation
Hi Kom, K.Amara and all,

Jim don't worry that we don't discuss about Pali studying.  I am watching my 
back, and have a question about Pali at the end. 

<<Sorry to eavesdrop on the conversation with you and K. Num here>>

Well, this is my second e-group discussion signed up ever. I think I am 
somewhat traditional in rule and etiquette (not too much) but to me if it's a 
group discussion, I mean to be open. So eavesdropping cannot be applied here. 
Input, responses, criticism, challenging are always welcome.  I am serious :)

<<I have to confess: I have always had problems
identifying myself as being young, and being Thai (or
Chinese, or American, etc.)  Since I study dhamma, I have
understood better why that is.  Thainess has no paramattha
characteristics!>>

Well, Kom, u made me laugh at myself. You are not that young, man.  Also 
remind me to ask for a pardon from Jim. When I first signed in to PSG, I 
mentioned to Jim in my pvt note that I hope I am not too old to learn Pali.  
I did not mean to be offensive. Anyway Jim told me his age and asked how old 
I was.   Ooppp, I was quite reluctant to answer b/c some people take it as 
insult at time.  

The same thing happens to me, most of the people told me that I am still very 
young in my career but I don't know I always think I am not young and getting 
old. To me time is running out. Nobody know how long she/he will live.  There 
are too many things I want to do in my life.  To me life is uncertain and  
death is inevitable.  I think of having a list of 101 things to do before I 
die.  As someone mentioned, it depends on how we look, life is as short as 
one moment of citta or as long as samsara. I am 31, too old to be a 
professional tennis player :) , I wonder can I read the whole Tipitaka in 
this life time. 

I have some experiences with dying patients. To me life is fragile, we all 
subjected to birth, getting old, being sick and death.  People who I joked 
with or gave them some encourage the day before can be dead the next day. A 
times it's hard for me to take.  I learn my lesson that I treat a person not 
a disease. 

Jim, finally, I just got a Pali-Thai dictionary, shipping from Thailand, 2 
days ago.  My question is why the dictionary starts the first vocabulary with 
"Assa" and the last word is "Hora...".  I am used to Thai and English 
alphabetical order.  I scanned through the dictionary last night, I could not 
come up with how the Pali alphabetical order goes. I ordered Pali-English 
dictionary but it will take about another month to be ready to ship to me.

Alright, until later.

Num







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
74
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 0:44pm
Subject: Re: Re: Num : orientation
Dear Num,
I figured you for a quite few years older- based on your wise
comments on life and Dhamma.
 Jim explained about pali alpahabet order some posts ago (you
can find in the archives somewhere I think). 
robert

__________________________________________________
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75 [Deleted]
 
76
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 7:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Num : orientation
Dear Num,

>Jim, finally, I just got a Pali-Thai dictionary, shipping from Thailand, 2
>days ago.  My question is why the dictionary starts the first vocabulary
with
>"Assa" and the last word is "Hora...".  I am used to Thai and English
>alphabetical order.  I scanned through the dictionary last night, I could
not
>come up with how the Pali alphabetical order goes. I ordered Pali-English
>dictionary but it will take about another month to be ready to ship to me.

Better check that dictionary again! I think the 'assa' is most likely
'a.msa'. The order of the niggahiita (.m) is a letter that confuses many in
looking up words in a Pali dictionary. The .m comes between the vowels and
y, r, l, v, s, h (mostly in cases with the prefix sa.m before y, r, etc.)
which is dealt with first before it goes into k kh g gh etc. Which
Pali-English dictionary did you order? I'd be interested to know the
differences between the Thai-Pali and the Pali-English dictionary when you
have both and also the general layout and content of the Thai entries and
how far it goes explaining the derivation of Pali words (prefix, root,
affixes).

Jim
High Priest of the Pali Order
 
77
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Tue Apr 3, 2001 6:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Num : orientation
Hi Jim,

Oh-oh, I did take a look at my Pali-Thai dictionary, just saw the contents 
page, ( I didn't see it last night.)   The dict. goes by vowel 8 vowels first 
and then followed by consonants, which goes by Thai alphabet order.  I 
ordered The Pali English Dictionary by Davids Rhys and Stede Willian.   My 
Pali-Thai dict. has only brief introduction to Pali, it does not give much 
detail about root or prefix.  I think I told u before that I have Pali 
grammar books in Thai by Maha-makuta-raja-vitayalai, 7 books series. Which 
have more detail but I could not understand the whole thing that much.

I will let u know the differences between the two dicts. when get both of 
them.

Thanks.

Num
 
78
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 2:00am
Subject: Re: Re: Num : orientation
Dear Num,

That's the same pali Eng dict we have (recently
courtesy of PTS), so we can even give each other page
nos if we get confused with alphabets!

Num & friends,

did you follow the link that Mike N gave to Andrew
Shaw's Pali page recently? (check Mike's most recent
messages) 

I was and am too busy to follow it past the briefest
cursory look, but I noticed it had a couple of Pali
textbooks, learning files etc. Maybe it's useful for
the keenies who can then report back!

In chaos here!
Sarah


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79
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Wed Apr 4, 2001 8:00am
Subject: Re: Re: Num : orientation
Hi Sarah and Rob,

Thanks for the inf. Sarah. Hope u have a good trip and stay in touch with us.

Rob, I have a hard time staying content and humble with your compliment :)  
Crosslink, thanks for posting Visuddhimagga online.

I will have couple more short trips coming, usually I can read more when I am 
on a trip.

Num




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
80
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue May 1, 2001 4:56pm
Subject: PTS dictionary now online!
Dear members:

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary is now online at the
following url:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html

This is the one compiled by Rhys Davids and Stede. I think the dictionary
site is still under construction so you may experience a few problems
getting search results for the word you key in but results are coming back
for some words. There seems to be a font problem to deal with as well. This
site is completely new to me although I knew that it was in the works from
the information given in the PTS current projects page.

Also new is the fact that Margaret Cone's New Pali-English Dictionary, Vol
I., A-K has just gone to press and should be available to the public in 5 to
6 weeks.

Best wishes,

Jim
 
81
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed May 2, 2001 0:01am
Subject: Re: PTS dictionary now online!
Jim,

thanks for this info.

Hope you had a good holiday and looking f/w very much
to the reply to Anthony on dsg re Pali origins and
King Asoka's pillars!

Sarah

--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote: > Dear
members:
> 
> The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary is
> now online at the
> following url:
> 
>
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html
> 
> This is the one compiled by Rhys Davids and Stede. I
> think the dictionary
> site is still under construction so you may
> experience a few problems
> getting search results for the word you key in but
> results are coming back
> for some words. There seems to be a font problem to
> deal with as well. This
> site is completely new to me although I knew that it
> was in the works from
> the information given in the PTS current projects
> page.
> 
> Also new is the fact that Margaret Cone's New
> Pali-English Dictionary, Vol
> I., A-K has just gone to press and should be
> available to the public in 5 to
> 6 weeks.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


_______________________________________________________________________
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82
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 8:47am
Subject: psg news
Dear list-members,

I'm pleased to inform you that a new member (the ninth) has recently joined
our group. I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Nina van Gorkom.
It's a real honour to have her with us and I'm sure her presence and
participation will be greatly appreciated by all of us here. She'll be  away
on vacation from May 12-28 so she's just around for a few more days. Without
realizing it until afterwards I had coincidentally subscribed Nina on an
auspicious Visaakha day.

The list has been relatively quiet since mid-March but now that Nina has
joined us I should really start working again on more contributions to Pali
study. I had started on the sutta concerning the niggahiita (.m) but it
still needs a lot more work. This particular letter is probably the most
difficult to understand of all the letters (at least in my mind).

You don't need to wait for my contributions to participate. You're all free
to make your own contributions, ask questions, put forth any Pali word or
short text for comments or study, or anything else that you might think
appropriate. I've been thinking of posting something on the uses of the
future passive participle like sevitabba touched on in Rob's recent post to
dsg and perhaps something on the Lumbini inscription.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
83
From: amara chay <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 8, 2001 11:05am
Subject: Re: psg news
Dear Nina,

Warmest welcome!  What a wonderful and perfect day for you to join PSG, and 
perhaps you remember that the number 9 is also an auspicious number to the 
Thai.  (Our present king is also Rama IX, and one of the best in Thai 
history!)  It is only fitting that you should be our 9th member, I am so 
happy to have you with us!

By the way the DSSF website is at this address, I'm sorry I gave you the 
wrong URL, Khun Kulvilai just called to tell me the mistake:

<http://www.buddhadhamma.com/>

I had thought they used the .org, but apparently not.  She tells me the Thai 
section is open, I wonder if you can read some of the Thai there.  Otherwise 
a friend told me you could download a Thai font from Microsoft update for 
free, I will send you the URL off-list if you like!

Looking forward to seeing you on the list,

Amara
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
 
84
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 3:48am
Subject: Re: psg news
Dear Jim,
Thanks for persuading Nina to join. 
She  sent me this note:
"Dear Robert, I looked up the Netti text. Here again we have also: 
conceit is
of two kinds: kusala and akusala. Any conceit supported by which one
abandons conceit is profitable; but any conceit which makes dukkha 
occur is
unprofitable conceit. It then continues about grief that has for its 
support
nekkhamma ... and longing arises in him. such craving is profitable.
Our approach could be: from what angle has this been stated, there 
are 
so
many angles and realities have been taught under so many different 
headings.
That is why also the texts about samatha are sometimes difficult to
interprete. Countless methods of teaching. The heading here is:< 
conveying
an investigation in combined treatment>.
I am glad Jim pointed to different manuscripts.
Do you have Wheel 351-353, The Jhanas , from ven. Henepola 
Gunaratana? 
It
has many texts on jhana.
I like to quote a text from the Sangiti co, very short, but a 
reminder 
of
sukkha vipassana, as Buddhaghosa frequently does. Is such a quote 
suitable
for psg? I do not know yet what is suitable,"endquote.
____________
robert

 In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear list-members,
> 
> I'm pleased to inform you that a new member (the ninth) has 
recently joined
> our group. I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome Nina van 
Gorkom.
> It's a real honour to have her with us and I'm sure her presence and
> participation will be greatly appreciated by all of us here. She'll 
be  away
> on vacation from May 12-28 so she's just around for a few more 
days. Without
> realizing it until afterwards I had coincidentally subscribed Nina 
on an
> auspicious Visaakha day.
> 
> The list has been relatively quiet since mid-March but now that 
Nina has
> joined us I should really start working again on more contributions 
to Pali
> study. I had started on the sutta concerning the niggahiita (.m) 
but it
> still needs a lot more work. This particular letter is probably the 
most
> difficult to understand of all the letters (at least in my mind).
> 
> You don't need to wait for my contributions to participate. You're 
all free
> to make your own contributions, ask questions, put forth any Pali 
word or
> short text for comments or study, or anything else that you might 
think
> appropriate. I've been thinking of posting something on the uses of 
the
> future passive participle like sevitabba touched on in Rob's recent 
post to
> dsg and perhaps something on the Lumbini inscription.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
 
85
From: Jim Anderson <jima@bconnex.net> 
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 11:09am
Subject: Re: Re: psg news
Dear Robert (and others),

Thanks for sharing Nina's letter with us. Nina is welcome to submit anything
she wishes to psg including the quote from the Sangiti com. As far as I'm
concerned she is very much at liberty to do as she pleases here. She has my
absolute permission to teach or carry on a dhamma discussion on any topic
with the psg group. Also, any member(s) here is/are at liberty to use psg to
communicate or initiate a dialogue with Nina.

Best wishes,
Jim

>Dear Jim,
>Thanks for persuading Nina to join.
>She  sent me this note:
>"Dear Robert, I looked up the Netti text. Here again we have also:
>conceit is
>of two kinds: kusala and akusala. Any conceit supported by which one
>abandons conceit is profitable; but any conceit which makes dukkha
>occur is
>unprofitable conceit. It then continues about grief that has for its
>support
>nekkhamma ... and longing arises in him. such craving is profitable.
>Our approach could be: from what angle has this been stated, there
>are
>so
>many angles and realities have been taught under so many different
>headings.
>That is why also the texts about samatha are sometimes difficult to
>interprete. Countless methods of teaching. The heading here is:<
>conveying
>an investigation in combined treatment>.
>I am glad Jim pointed to different manuscripts.
>Do you have Wheel 351-353, The Jhanas , from ven. Henepola
>Gunaratana?
>It
>has many texts on jhana.
>I like to quote a text from the Sangiti co, very short, but a
>reminder
>of
>sukkha vipassana, as Buddhaghosa frequently does. Is such a quote
>suitable
>for psg? I do not know yet what is suitable,"endquote.
>____________
>robert
 
86
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat May 12, 2001 11:33am
Subject: Re: Re: psg news
Thank you Jim. We are a small group but we are very fortunate to
have you and Nina (not to mention the others) as guides for
understanding the letter and the meaning of the Pali.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jima@b...> wrote:
> Dear Robert (and others),
> 
> Thanks for sharing Nina's letter with us. Nina is welcome to
> submit anything
> she wishes to psg including the quote from the Sangiti com. As
> far as I'm
> concerned she is very much at liberty to do as she pleases
> here. She has my
> absolute permission to teach or carry on a dhamma discussion
> on any topic
> with the psg group. Also, any member(s) here is/are at liberty
> to use psg to
> communicate or initiate a dialogue with Nina.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> >Dear Jim,

__________________________________________________
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87
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:50pm
Subject: Fw: about a commentary
Dear list-members,

Two days ago Nina posted the message below which was meant for psg. I had
thought it was directed to me only but from her second message it became
obvious that her two messages were meant for the whole group. So I have
forwarded her two messages plus my response to the first one. My apology for
failing to notice the to: line with 'pali study Moderator' for the first
message.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...>
To: palistudy Moderator <palistudy-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:04 PM
Subject: about a commentary


>Dear Jim, in the Kindred Sayings I, VIII, Vangiisa Suttas,  7, Invitation,
>Pavarana ssutta, there is a point Khun Sujin pointed out: among 500 monks,
>60 have the threefold knowledge, 60have the six abhi~n~nas, 60 are
>ubhatobhaaga vimutta, and the others (thus, 320!) by insight.
>I have a Thai commentary only of the first part of S. I, not of this part.
I
>would like to know what the Co. states about this matter. If you have time,
>but no hurry, it would be very helpful if you could you look this up.
>Otherwise, I have no questions on Pali. I am reading now the Co. to the
>Sama~n~naphalasutta next to Ven. Bodhi's translation, but he leaves out
>parts, such as word derivations. I started to find difficult the passage on
>Arahatta, but fortunately Buddhaghosa referred to the Visuddhimagga where I
>found the meaning. Most words are in Buddhadassa's dictionary which is good
>for quick reference, so that the reading is not burdensome but a pleasure.
>It would be interesting to know what the other members are reading or
>translating. Nina.
>
>



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88
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:51pm
Subject: Fw: about a commentary
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Anderson <jima_47@y...>
To: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...>
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: about a commentary


>Dear Nina,
>
>>Dear Jim, in the Kindred Sayings I, VIII, Vangiisa Suttas,  7,
Invitation,
>>Pavarana ssutta, there is a point Khun Sujin pointed out: among 500 monks,
>>60 have the threefold knowledge, 60have the six abhi~n~nas, 60 are
>>ubhatobhaaga vimutta, and the others (thus, 320!) by insight.
>>I have a Thai commentary only of the first part of S. I, not of this part.
>I
>>would like to know what the Co. states about this matter. If you have
time,
>>but no hurry, it would be very helpful if you could you look this up.
>>Otherwise, I have no questions on Pali. I am reading now the Co. to the
>>Sama~n~naphalasutta next to Ven. Bodhi's translation, but he leaves out
>>parts, such as word derivations. I started to find difficult the passage
on
>>Arahatta, but fortunately Buddhaghosa referred to the Visuddhimagga where
I
>>found the meaning. Most words are in Buddhadassa's dictionary which is
good
>>for quick reference, so that the reading is not burdensome but a pleasure.
>
>The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya commentary and
>subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's all there is --
>explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
>
>ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
>aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
>naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
>tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278 (a.t.thakathaa)
>
>[subcommentary:]
>ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaati.ayamettha
>atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe... naamakaayato"ti
>iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
>pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividham appattaa kevala.m pa~n~naaya eva
>vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)
>
>I find the groupings in the sutta a little odd. Couldn't the tevijja and
>cha.labhi~n~na monks also be included in the ubhatobhaagavimutta category?
>
>>It would be interesting to know what the other members are reading or
>>translating. Nina.
>
>Most of the members on psg are Pali beginners. I don't yet know how well
you
>can read Pali but that should come clearer later. When you say you are
>reading the Co. on DN 2 is it the Thai or Pali Co. that you are reading or
>both? I'm also quite interested in reading Pali commentaries even though
>they are often quite difficult. After about two months of being unusually
>distracted I think I'm now slowly regaining a state of mind that is more
>suitable for studying Pali. Most recently I've been taking a close look at
>an English translation of the first sutta (aphorism) of the Padaruupasiddhi
>(a grammatical text) and comparing it to the original Pali.
>Here's part of it:
><<1. attho akkharasa~n~naato.
>
>A meaning is properly known through the letters.>>
>(transl. Suan Lu Zaw)
>
>There is also some interesting commentary with it. I'm planning to post
more
>to psg. Soon after I joined dsg I took on doing an English translation of
>the beginning sections of the Patthana commentaries which Robert told you
>about. I got started on it but haven't done anymore for quite some time
>probably because my skills in translating Pali is not sufficient.
>
>Just saw your first post to dsg. The contents of your message that I have
>replied to above is quite suitable for psg. Psg is ideal for looking very
>closely at Pali words and passages. We have to be a little more careful on
>dsg with the Pali as some members there can get overwhelmed by it. Not too
>long ago someone even complained!
>
>Best wishes,
>Jim
>



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89
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri May 25, 2001 1:51pm
Subject: Fw: translation of commentary
-----Original Message-----
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...>
To: Jim Anderson <jima_47@y...>
Date: Friday, May 25, 2001 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: translation of commentary


op 24-05-2001 00:50 schreef Jim Anderson op jima_47@y...:

> Dear Nina,
>
>> Dear Jim, in the Kindred Sayings I, VIII, Vangiisa Suttas,  7,
Invitation,
>> Pavarana ssutta, there is a point Khun Sujin pointed out: among 500
monks,
>> 60 have the threefold knowledge, 60have the six abhi~n~nas, 60 are
>> ubhatobhaaga vimutta, and the others (thus, 320!) by insight.
>> I have a Thai commentary only of the first part of S. I, not of this
part.
>
> The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya commentary and
> subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's all there is --
> explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
>
> ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
> naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
> tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278 (a.t.thakathaa)
>
> [subcommentary:]
> ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaati.ayamettha
> atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe...
naamakaayato"ti
> iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividham appattaa kevala.m pa~n~naaya eva
> vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)
>
You handed me a nice present, the commentary texts, thank you.
Here goes my translation, and corrections are appreciated, I am here to
learn: first the co:
freed in both ways: being freed in the two parts (bhaago). he is freed from
the material body by the attainment of aaruupaavacara (aruupajhaana), and
freed from the mental body by the highest path (aggamagga).
freed by pa~n~naa: he is freed by pa~n~naa: he has destroyed the aasavaas
without having attained the threefold knowledge etc.
Now the subco:
freed in both ways: he is freed in both parts, by both parts. This here
(ayamettha) is the meaning. He shows by this (iminaa) : < freed by two ways,
aruupa...etc. ...he is freed from the mental body >. The threefold knowledge
and others (aadi) are existing, the threefold knowledge, the six abhi~n~naa,
the four discriminations (pa.tisambhidas).
pa~n~naavimuttaa: he is thus freed entirely by pa~n`naa, without having
attained the threefold knowledge.

kevala.m, wholly, entirely, seems to put a lot of stress on pa~n~naa.

> I find the groupings in the sutta a little odd. Couldn't the tevijja and
> cha.labhi~n~na monks also be included in the ubhatobhaagavimutta category?

In the freed both ways catagory are included those with the eight
attainments: ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas, or just by aruupajhaana. This
has been explained in Wheel351-353, The Jhaanas, by Ve. Henepola (he gives
many texts) and also Ve. Bodhi, The Great Discourse on Causation, in the
Intro. There are variations, some texts, the Puggalap~n~natti give the
ruupajhaana and aruupajhaanas, whereas other texts mention just the
aruupajhaanaa for this distinction in freedom. I think that it depends on
the headings, the different angles.
Now, the threefold knowledge, and then the six abhi~n~naas are additional
distinctions, also the four discrimination mentioned in the subcommentary.
My personal opion, I would like Robert's comment, is that this is the reason
for mentioning them separately in the commentary. Also: three times 60 may
be a reason for this classification.
Is there more in the commentary, I would like to know more about the
circumstances, why such a great percentage of arahats is just
pa~n~naavimuttaa.
>
>>
> Most of the members on psg are Pali beginners. I don't yet know how well
you
> can read Pali but that should come clearer later.

My father would savour this remark! I feel like being in a class having to
pass a test and I like it.

When you say you are
> reading the Co. on DN 2 is it the Thai or Pali Co. that you are reading or
> both?

I am reading just the Pali co. on DN 2. I am selftaught, only used Warder. I
like this book because he lets you read very soon, but it is not handy for
looking up grammatical points. I do not have the grammar at my fingertips,
numbers are  weak points, and also Upama, comparisons, which are also in
Thai most difficult. I have many commentaries in Thai also, because they
edit suttas together with co, and each time I bring some from Thailand. But
I find the Thai commentaries difficult language. Khun Sujin quotes a lot
from them that is the reason I have them. I also have some suttas and co. in
Pali, all the D co, sent to me by (a blessed) mistake by the P.T.S. So I
have to read them now.


Most recently I've been taking a close look at
> an English translation of the first sutta (aphorism) of the
Padaruupasiddhi
> (a grammatical text) and comparing it to the original Pali.
> Here's part of it:
> <<1. attho akkharasa~n~naato.
>
> A meaning is properly known through the letters.>>
> (transl. Suan Lu Zaw)
>
> There is also some interesting commentary with it. I'm planning to post
more
> to psg.
Looking forward to your paper, Nina.
P.S. this address is different from the psg group address, I mean all this
for the group. What is correct?
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>



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90
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun May 27, 2001 8:52pm
Subject: Re: translation of commentary
Dear Nina,

Thank-you for your response and all your comments. I have looked over your
translation below and have inserted my corrections, comments, and some
translations (for you to compare with). I hope you will find them helpful
and of interest. Please ask for further clarification if desired.

> The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya commentary and
> subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's all there is --
> explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
>
> ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
> naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
> tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278 (a.t.thakathaa)
>
> [subcommentary:]
> ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaati.
> ayamettha atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe...
> naamakaayato"ti iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
> tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m pa~n~naaya
> eva vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)

NVG:
You handed me a nice present, the commentary texts, thank you.
Here goes my translation, and corrections are appreciated, I am here to
learn: first the co:

> ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.

NVG: freed in both ways: being freed in the two parts (bhaago).

JA: For 'dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa' I'm inclined to translate this as '<are>
freed from two parts'. The past participles (eg. vimutta) are mostly in
the past tense but your 'being freed' is in the present tense. I don't know
for sure if this is right or wrong. I believe some past participles can have
the force of the present tense although in this instance I think 'being'
should perhaps be avoided. 'in both ways' is a common translation for
'ubhatobhaaga' but one also finds 'in both ways' for just the 'ubhato' part
alone which leaves 'bhaaga' untranslated. 'ubhato' consists of the
pronoun 'ubha' (both) and the affix 'to' which make it an indeclinable
(nipaata) in the senses belonging to the fifth or seventh case, singular or
plural. The syntactical relation of 'ubhato' to 'bhaaga' is unclear to me
but according to the interpretation 'dviihi bhaagehi' it's as though only
the pronominal adj. 'ubha' it being read without the meaning of the
indeclinable affix 'to'. Edgerton in his BHSD has 'emancipated from both
parts' for his ubhayatobhaagavimukta entry.

I wonder if the terms: tevijjaa, cha.labhi~n~naa, ubhatobhaagavimuttaa, and
pa~n~naavimuttaa in the sutta (S i 191) are all functioning as nouns
(individuals) or as adjectives or could they be either. The
Puggalapa~n~natti treats these terms as nouns.

> aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
> naama-kaayato ti.

NVG: he is freed from the material body by the attainment of aaruupaavacara
(aruupajhaana), and freed from the mental body by the highest path
(aggamagga).

JA: 'he is freed' is in the wrong number for the plural 'vimuttaa'.
A 'vimutto' would call for the singular. I would perhaps replace 'he is'
with 'are' to indicate a plural. Notice your use of 'from' instead of 'in'
as in your previous sentence. The two parts (bhaaga-s) refer to 'ruupakaaya'
and 'naamakaaya'.

> pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa tevijjaadibhaava.m
> appattaa khii.naasavaa.

NVG: freed by pa~n~naa: he is freed by pa~n~naa: he has destroyed the
aasavaas without having attained the threefold knowledge etc.

JA: Again, 'he is' & 'he has' should both be in the plural. You didn't
translate '-bhaava.m'. Perhaps: 'without having attained the state of
<possessing> the three knowledges, etc.'

Now the subco:

> ubhatobhaagavimuttaa ti ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaa ti.

NVG: freed in both ways: he is freed in both parts, by both parts.

JA: the subcommentary reads the fifth case plural for -bhaagehi
and -bhaagato. This is a good example of how aome Pali phrases taken
together do not translate well into English. A literal translation would be:
'from both parts freed: from both parts, from both parts freed' which
doesn't make much sense until one reads it in Pali.

> ayamettha attho ti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe...
> naamakaayato"ti iminaa.

NVG: This here (ayamettha) is the meaning. He shows by this (iminaa) : <
freed by two ways, aruupa...etc. ...he is freed from the mental body >.

JA: I take 'ayamettha attho' to be the patient of 'dasseti' ie: He shows:
'this here is the meaning' with this: '<are> freed from the two parts,
aruupa . . . <are freed> from the mental body.' Or simply put: he shows x by
means of y.

>tevijjaadibhaavan ti tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.

NVG: The threefold knowledge and others (aadi) are existing, the threefold
knowledge, the six abhi~n~naa, the four discriminations (pa.tisambhidas).

JA: The state of <possessing> the three knowledges, etc: the state of
<possessing> the three knowledges, the six superknowledges, or the four
discriminations.

> pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m pa~n~naaya
> eva vimuttaa.

NVG: pa~n~naavimuttaa: he is thus freed entirely by pa~n`naa, without having
attained the threefold knowledge.

JA: For freed by wisdom <they are> freed entirely by wisdom alone without
having attained <any one of> these three kinds [enumerated in the previous
sentence].

NVG:
kevala.m, wholly, entirely, seems to put a lot of stress on pa~n~naa.

> I find the groupings in the sutta a little odd. Couldn't the tevijja and
> cha.labhi~n~na monks also be included in the ubhatobhaagavimutta category?

NVG:
In the freed both ways catagory are included those with the eight
attainments: ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas, or just by aruupajhaana. This
has been explained in Wheel351-353, The Jhaanas, by Ve. Henepola (he gives
many texts) and also Ve. Bodhi, The Great Discourse on Causation, in the
Intro. There are variations, some texts, the Puggalap~n~natti give the
ruupajhaana and aruupajhaanas, whereas other texts mention just the
aruupajhaanaa for this distinction in freedom. I think that it depends on
the headings, the different angles.
Now, the threefold knowledge, and then the six abhi~n~naas are additional
distinctions, also the four discrimination mentioned in the subcommentary.
My personal opion, I would like Robert's comment, is that this is the reason
for mentioning them separately in the commentary. Also: three times 60 may
be a reason for this classification.

JA: Thank you for the detailed and helpful explanation. This is a difficult
subject for me.

NVG:
Is there more in the commentary, I would like to know more about the
circumstances, why such a great percentage of arahats is just
pa~n~naavimuttaa.

JA: There is nothing more about this in the SN com. on the sutta. My guess
is that pa~n~naavimutti ranks lower than ubhatobhaagavimutti. The higher the
attainments the fewer there are that reach them.

NVG:
P.S. this address is different from the psg group address, I mean all this
for the group. What is correct?

The correct address to use to post directly to psg is:

palistudy@yahoogroups.com

Best wishes,
Jim


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91
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 8:06am
Subject: Re: Re: translation of commentary
Dear Jim and Nina,
I just got back from Tokyo and am behind on letters. Just to say
I read all the posts on this and like the way you explain the
grammatical points as you give the translation Jim. 

I'm going to forwrd some exchange I've been having with Teng kee
in case anyone has something to add about the duration of the
sasana.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
> 
> Thank-you for your response and all your comments. I have
> looked over your
> translation below and have inserted my corrections, comments,
> and some
> translations (for you to compare with). I hope you will find
> them helpful
> and of interest. Please ask for further clarification if
> desired.
> 
> > The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya
> commentary and
> > subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's
> all there is --
> > explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and
> 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
> >
> > ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> > aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa,
> agga-maggena
> > naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
> > tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278
> (a.t.thakathaa)
> >
> > [subcommentary:]
> > ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato
> vimuttaati.
> > ayamettha atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa
> ...pe...
> > naamakaayato"ti iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
> > tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> > pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m
> pa~n~naaya
> > eva vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)
> 
> NVG:
> You handed me a nice present, the commentary texts, thank you.
> Here goes my translation, and corrections are appreciated, I
> am here to
> learn: first the co:
> 
> > ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> 
> NVG: freed in both ways: being freed in the two parts
> (bhaago).
> 
> JA: For 'dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa' I'm inclined to translate
> this as '<are>
> freed from two parts'. The past participles (eg. vimutta) are
> mostly in
> the past tense but your 'being freed' is in the present tense.
> I don't know
> for sure if this is right or wrong. I believe some past
> participles can have
> the force of the present tense although in this instance I
> think 'being'
> should perhaps be avoided. 'in both ways' is a common
> translation for
> 'ubhatobhaaga' but one also finds 'in both ways' for just the
> 'ubhato' part
> alone which leaves 'bhaaga' untranslated. 'ubhato' consists of
> the
> pronoun 'ubha' (both) and the affix 'to' which make it an
> indeclinable
> (nipaata) in the senses belonging to the fifth or seventh
> case, singular or
> plural. The syntactical relation of 'ubhato' to 'bhaaga' is
> unclear to me
> but according to the interpretation 'dviihi bhaagehi' it's as
> though only
> the pronominal adj. 'ubha' it being read without the meaning
> of the
> indeclinable affix 'to'. Edgerton in his BHSD has 'emancipated
> from both
> parts' for his ubhayatobhaagavimukta entry.
> 
> I wonder if the terms: tevijjaa, cha.labhi~n~naa,
> ubhatobhaagavimuttaa, and
> pa~n~naavimuttaa in the sutta (S i 191) are all functioning as
> nouns
> (individuals) or as adjectives or could they be either. The
> Puggalapa~n~natti treats these terms as nouns.
> 
> > aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa,
> agga-maggena
> > naama-kaayato ti.
> 
> NVG: he is freed from the material body by the attainment of
> aaruupaavacara
> (aruupajhaana), and freed from the mental body by the highest
> path
> (aggamagga).
> 
> JA: 'he is freed' is in the wrong number for the plural
> 'vimuttaa'.
> A 'vimutto' would call for the singular. I would perhaps
> replace 'he is'
> with 'are' to indicate a plural. Notice your use of 'from'
> instead of 'in'
> as in your previous sentence. The two parts (bhaaga-s) refer
> to 'ruupakaaya'
> and 'naamakaaya'.
> 
> > pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa tevijjaadibhaava.m
> > appattaa khii.naasavaa.
> 
> NVG: freed by pa~n~naa: he is freed by pa~n~naa: he has
> destroyed the
> aasavaas without having attained the threefold knowledge etc.
> 
> JA: Again, 'he is' & 'he has' should both be in the plural.
> You didn't
> translate '-bhaava.m'. Perhaps: 'without having attained the
> state of
> <possessing> the three knowledges, etc.'
> 
> Now the subco:
> 
> > ubhatobhaagavimuttaa ti ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato
> vimuttaa ti.
> 
> NVG: freed in both ways: he is freed in both parts, by both
> parts.
> 
> JA: the subcommentary reads the fifth case plural for
> -bhaagehi
> and -bhaagato. This is a good example of how aome Pali phrases
> taken
> together do not translate well into English. A literal
> translation would be:
> 'from both parts freed: from both parts, from both parts
> freed' which
> doesn't make much sense until one reads it in Pali.
> 
> > ayamettha attho ti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa,
> aruupaa ...pe...
> > naamakaayato"ti iminaa.
> 
> NVG: This here (ayamettha) is the meaning. He shows by this
> (iminaa) : <
> freed by two ways, aruupa...etc. ...he is freed from the
> mental body >.
> 
> JA: I take 'ayamettha attho' to be the patient of 'dasseti'
> ie: He shows:
> 'this here is the meaning' with this: '<are> freed from the
> two parts,
> aruupa . . . <are freed> from the mental body.' Or simply put:
> he shows x by
> means of y.
> 
> >tevijjaadibhaavan ti
> tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> 
> NVG: The threefold knowledge and others (aadi) are existing,
> the threefold
> knowledge, the six abhi~n~naa, the four discriminations
> (pa.tisambhidas).
> 
> JA: The state of <possessing> the three knowledges, etc: the
> state of
> <possessing> the three knowledges, the six superknowledges, or
> the four
> discriminations.
> 
> > pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m
> pa~n~naaya
> > eva vimuttaa.
> 
> NVG: pa~n~naavimuttaa: he is thus freed entirely by pa~n`naa,
> without having
> attained the threefold knowledge.
> 
> JA: For freed by wisdom <they are> freed entirely by wisdom
> alone without
> having attained <any one of> these three kinds [enumerated in
> the previous
> sentence].
> 
> NVG:
> kevala.m, wholly, entirely, seems to put a lot of stress on
> pa~n~naa.
> 
> > I find the groupings in the sutta a little odd. Couldn't the
> tevijja and
> > cha.labhi~n~na monks also be included in the
> ubhatobhaagavimutta category?
> 
> NVG:
> In the freed both ways catagory are included those with the
> eight
> attainments: ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas, or just by
> aruupajhaana. This
> has been explained in Wheel351-353, The Jhaanas, by Ve.
> Henepola (he gives
> many texts) and also Ve. Bodhi, The Great Discourse on
> Causation, in the
> Intro. There are variations, some texts, the Puggalap~n~natti
> give the
> ruupajhaana and aruupajhaanas, whereas other texts mention
> just the
> aruupajhaanaa for this distinction in freedom. I think that it
> depends on
> the headings, the different angles.
> Now, the threefold knowledge, and then the six abhi~n~naas are
> additional
> distinctions, also the four discrimination mentioned in the
> subcommentary.
> My personal opion, I would like Robert's comment, is that this
> is the reason
> for mentioning them separately in the commentary. Also: three
> times 60 may
> be a reason for this classification.
> 
> JA: Thank you for the detailed and helpful explanation. This
> is a difficult
> subject for me.
> 
> NVG:
> Is there more in the commentary, I would like to know more
> about the
> circumstances, why such a great percentage of arahats is just
> pa~n~naavimuttaa.
> 
> JA: There is nothing more about this in the SN com. on the
> sutta. My guess
> is that pa~n~naavimutti ranks lower than ubhatobhaagavimutti.
> The higher the
> attainments the fewer there are that reach them.
> 
> NVG:
> P.S. this address is different from the psg group address, I
> mean all this
> for the group. What is correct?
> 
> The correct address to use to post directly to psg is:
> 
> palistudy@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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92
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 8:09am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] Re: Duration of sasana
--- In Triplegem@y..., wynn <wewynal@t...> wrote:
http://www.ubakhin.com/uchittin/arimet/ARIMET03.html

The Coming Buddha, Ariya Metteyya
Research Papers by Sayagyi U Chit Tin

The Duration of the Sasana of Buddha Gotama
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahatto Sammasambuddhassa



During the period from the time of Buddha Gotama to the minimum life 
span,
the Buddha's Dispensation (Buddha-sasana) will disappear. When the 
Buddha
agreed to create the Bhikkhuni Sangha, he told Ven. Ananda that the 
Sasana
would last only half as long because of this. Instead of lasting one
thousand years, it would last five hundred years. The commentary on 
the
Abhidhamma text, Dhammasangani, says that when the First Buddhist 
Council
convened by Ven. Maha-Kassapa rehearsed the Pali Canon, this made it
possible for the Sasana to endure for five thousand years.[48]

The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka[49] and the Anguttara-nikaya
[50] say
that the eight important rules which the Buddha gave to the Bhikkhuni 
Sangha
will make his Teachings last for five thousand years rather than five
hundred. There will be one thousand years for Arahats who attain 
analytical
insight, one thousand years for Arahats without those attainments, one
thousand years for Non-returners, one thousand years for Once-
returners, and
one thousand years for Stream-winners. After these five thousand 
years of
penetration of the true Doctrine (pativedha-sadhamma),[51] the
accomplishment in the texts (pariyatti-dhamma) will remain. After the
accomplishment in the texts disappears, the signs (linga) will 
continue for
a long time.

In the commentary to the Theragatha[52] the Sasana is said to consist 
of
five periods: (1) the age of deliverance (vimutti-yuga), (2) the age 
of
concentration (samadhi-yuga), (3) the age of morality (sila-yuga), 
(4) the
age of learning [the texts] (suta-yuga), and (5) the age of generosity
(dana-yuga). Ven. Dhammapala says, conerning the disappearance of 
learning,
"In a region where there is no purity of morality, accomplishment (in 
the
texts) remains through taking up great learning, through the desire to
acquire, etc. But when accomplishment in the summary [i.e., the 
Patimokkha]
is completley ended, it disappears. From that time on, only the mere 
sign
(linga) remains. Then, having accumu- lated riches in various ways, 
they
give away gifts (dana); this, truly, is the last right practice. 
Then, [the
period starting] after the disappearance of learning is the last time
(pacchima-kala). Others say that it is from the time of the 
disappearance of
morality." According to the tradition in Burma, the Sasana will last 
five
thousand years. The five periods will occur twice. The first half of 
the
Sasana has just passed, with each of the five periods lasting five 
hundred
years. We are now in the second half, when these periods will be 
repeated,
each lasting for another five hundred years.

In the Anagatavamsa commentary, the Buddha is said to preface the 
account of
the future Buddha Ariya Metteyya by saying his own dispensation will
disappear in five stages: (1) the disappearance of analytical insight
(patisambhida), (2) the disappearance of the Paths and Fruition 
States, (3)
the disappearance of the practice (patipatti), (4) the disappearance 
of the
texts (pariyatti), and (5) the disappearance of the Sangha.

Other commentaries also speak in terms of five stages of disappearance
(antaradhana) of the Sasana:[53] (1) First, there will be the 
disappearance
of attainment (adhigama), which would correspond to the age of 
deliverance.
(2) The second disappearance is of the practice (patipatti), which
corresponds to the ages of concentration and morality. (3) The 
disappearance
of accomplishment in the texts (pariyatti) is third and corresponds 
to the
age of learning. (4) The fourth disappearance is of the signs (linga).
During this period, the only good action left is making gifts to 
those who
wear a yellow strip of cloth around their necks, so this would 
correspond to
the age of generosity. When this disappearance occurs, five thousand 
years
will have passed.[54] After this period there occurs (5) the 
disappearance
of the relics (dhatu). When the relics no longer receive honour, they 
will
assemble at the seat where the Buddha attained Awakening under the 
Great
Bodhi tree. There, they will make an effigy of the Buddha and perform 
a
marvel similar to the Twin Marvel and will teach the Doctrine. No 
human
being will be present, only Devas from the ten thousand world systems 
will
listen, and many of them will attain release. After that, the relics 
will be
burned up without remainder.[55]



FOOTNOTES:


48. As 27, see Expos. 35.
49. Sp 1291.
50. Mp IV 136f.
51. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw (MB 169) calls these five thousand years the 
age of
Ariyas (Noble Ones).
52. Th-a III 89.
53. ] See the commentary on A (Mp I 87), Moh 201-203, and the extract 
from
the Anag commentary (JPTS, 1886, pp. 33-36; translated in BT 481-486).
54. The number of years are mentioned only in the Anag commentary.
55. Some texts speak of three disappearances. See CPD under 
antaradhana for
references.
--- End forwarded message ---
 
93
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 8:11am
Subject: Fwd: RE: [Triplegem] Re: Duration of sasana
--- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
Dear Marlon,
I like give a view by a Myanmar monk who is teaching
in buddhist U. I got this view last year in Yangon.The
Buddha in Vinaya pitaka is correct for saying the true
dhamma will last for 500 years if we put it to mean
first 500 years will be arahant only but not after
that. For the next 500 years will be sakadagami,anagami
and sotapanna.This theory will be the same with
anguttara com in first nipata which said adhigamma
(attainment )period will only last 1000 years but not
after that.
That monk said the 8 garu dhamma  will not have much
change for the attainment of monks.




--- Ranjith Pushpakumara
<ranjith.pushpakumara@c...> wrote:
> Dear Marlon,
> 
> It is a very interesting question. Here is my
> immediate thoughts.
> 
> Question: 
> 
> The Lord Buddha declared that his Religion would
> last 1,000 years if 
> no nuns were admitted, but only 500 years if they
> were.
> What If the Master Lord Buddha was correct in saying
> so?
> Could this already have come to pass that Buddhism
> as Lord 
> Buddha "Knew it" has ceased to exist and in its
> place a variant which 
> in "His" perception is not His Dhamma -Vinaya. 
> 
> Answer:
> 
> Let us look at the today's quality of the human
> life. And compare it with
> what is found in the Sila (Moral) of the Dhamma. It
> is very clear that the
> difference is greater than the distance between two
> world systems.
> 
> During the time of Buddha, it says that there were
> 62 different religions
> were in practice in India alone. It only took few
> days after the Parinibbana
> of Buddha for the Bhikku Subadda to put forward his
> 'own theory'. This
> motion itself resulted in the First Council just
> after three months of the
> Parinibbana.
> 
> Today, we are living in the world 2545 years after
> Parinibbana.
> 
> The Dhamma travelled a period of about 400 years
> before being put into
> books. I do not believe that the Dhamma got
> distorted during the travel as
> those Monks of the time used 16 different
> "check-sum" methods (similar to
> some of error detection methods used in the modern
> computer data
> communication systems)to ensure the accuracy of the
> material being received
> from another person.
> 
> However, the Dhamma written in the Tipitaka is in
> extremely advanced form
> and were not understood to most of the community
> without several
> simplifications. That is where 'Atuwa' and 'Tika'
> play their roles.
> 
> According to my personal knowledge, none of those
> Atuwa and Tika were
> written by Noble Beings. They were all done by
> highly educated puthajjana
> Bhikkus of the time (please correct me if I am wrong
> here).
> 
> To add to the complexity of the issue, language,
> environment, culture,
> lifestyle and several other factors common to the
> time around 2000 years ago
> might have influenced the outcome of some of the
> 'interpretations' to the
> original Dhamma.
> 
> If we try to analyse some of those matters found in
> those interpretations
> which was influenced by those factors, we will
> certainly either go in wrong
> directions or will be stopped in front of big brick
> walls.
> 
> On the other hand, if we look at fundamentals of
> Dhamma, such as Four Noble
> Truths, Dependent Origination and the true nature of
> the world
> (Impermanence, Suffering and Soul-lessness), we can
> not find any conflicts
> in them with our current knowledge and the logics of
> the mundane mind.
> 
> Let us try to penetrate into the core of the Dhamma
> which is mentioned
> above, by removing the outer shell which is now full
> of rust and also
> subjected to heavy erosion!!
> 
> Regarding Buddha's attitude towards Women;
> 
> I believe most of the fabrications we find now are
> merely 'theories' of
> people who either didn't understand the fact or
> tried to mislead the rest.
> 
> We do not have any examples to claim that the Buddha
> has done anything
> discriminating women. Despite the story itself, the
> Buddha allowed women
> into the Sasana. Not only that, he provide all the
> support required for them
> to attain Nibbana. The Buddha never said that women
> are any less than men in
> any way.
> 
> Let us consider few examples now. Few months after
> the enlightenment, Buddha
> visited his lay family members to help them to get
> away from their blind
> faiths and realise Dhamma. He acknowledge the
> commitment and dedication by
> Yasodhara and explained Dhamma after visiting her
> personal room.
> 
> At the time of Parinibbana of Prajapathie Gothamee,
> Buddha followed her for
> several steps as a respect to his step-mother before
> the enlightenment.
> 
> The Buddha helped the Bhikkuni who were pregnant
> with the boy Kumara Kassapa
> to clear her name and to prove to the blind crowd
> that the Bikkuni had
> conceived the child prior to admitting to the
> Sasana.
> 
> 
> These are only very few examples to show how Buddha
> treated women with equal
> respect.
> 
> Regarding numbers found in various materials, I too
> had questions in the
> past, but after a while, I realised that Buddha
> sometimes had to use
> 'something' to direct a person in the right path.
> Since his idea was showing
> someone the right path, we should not dwell in the
> mechanism he used to
> match the situation. It will be a waste our valuable
> time available to
> concentrate on watching our own minds.
> 
> Considering all above, I wouldn't hesitate to ignore
> some statements found
> in materials that comes as 'interpretation of
> translations and
> transformations'.
> 
> It doesn't matter if Buddha said it or not, that
> would never interfere with
> your path to purification of the mind.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ranjith Pushpakumara
> Tel: 03 - 9483 7577
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----------
> 
> This email and any attachments may contain
> privileged and
> confidential information and are intended for the
> named
> addressee only.  If you have received this e-mail in
> error, 
> please notify the sender and delete this e-mail
> immediately. 
> Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not
> waived or 
> lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in
> error.  It 
> is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any 
> attachments for viruses.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
=== message truncated ===



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--- End forwarded message ---


94
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 8:12am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] Re: Duration of sasana
--- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
dear Robert,
I forgot to mention that most arahant  teachers in com
was living during 1,2,3 BC,most contemporary with
Mahinda.That Myanmar monk already did some research on
the stories.I think you didn't read the passage i am
taliking about in anguttara nipata that all fruitions
are possible only for first 1000 years but not beyond
that( from Anguttara bhanaka).The part is in Anguttara
com 8 th nipata was came from Vinaya com.Please let me
know did you read that part in pali or not.In digha
com we can only attain sakadagami at this 2000-3000
years but samyutta com didn't give the fixed time.
Amara seemed to make mistake about digha com. 




-  -- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> --- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dear Marlon,
> > I like give a view by a Myanmar monk who is
> teaching
> > in buddhist U. I got this view last year in
> Yangon.The
> > Buddha in Vinaya pitaka is correct for saying the
> true
> > dhamma will last for 500 years if we put it to
> mean
> > first 500 years will be arahant only but not after
> > that. For the next 500 years will be
> sakadagami,anagami
> > and sotapanna.This theory will be the same with
> > anguttara com in first nipata which said adhigamma
> > (attainment )period will only last 1000 years but
> not
> > after that.
> > That monk said the 8 garu dhamma  will not have
> much
> > change for the attainment of monks.
> > 
> > _____________________
> 
> 
> Dear teng,
> This is very interesting. Thanks for letting us
> know. It is hard to 
> reach any conclusion but good to get as many details
> and sources as 
> possible. Which buddhist university was it?
> But I think there are too many refernces in the
> commentaries to 
> arahants around 500-1000 years after the
> parinibbana, (Mahavihara in 
> sri lanka etc) for this to be right.
> Could it be 500 years for arahnats with the
> threefold knowledge, 500 
> for the six abhi~n~nas, 500are
> ubhatobhaaga vimutta, and then 500 for
> sukkhavipassaka arahant(then 
> 1000 for anagami, 1000 for sakadagami, 1000 for
> sotapanna)?. Then the 
> commenatry on bothy nipatas of the anguttara nikaya
> seems to line up.
> robert
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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--- End forwarded message ---
 
95
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 8:13am
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] Re: Duration of sasana
--- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
Dear Robert,
I must know first that did you find out sakkapanha
sutta (in verse near the end of sutta)for sakka
rebirth as a human.You must find it from wisdom p.or
complete pts eng version.Online version is missing for
those parts.I like too menti0n com said that anagami
will born in lower world as a human and deva too if
they lost their jhana.see samyutta com .It is not a
must that will naturally born in suddavasa.
 Mahavihara-see visuddhamagga com intro in nyanamoli
version.It is started during devanampiyatisa 307 b.c.
until kutakanatissa 20 B.c.No more arhant story in sri
lanka or india from com anymore after that.
as for that wheel book by myamar as sent by wynn.This
is a good book.It did have anguttara com.first nipata
of adhigamma(attainment)only 1000 years but the tran. 
is not complete and without naming the book.Note that
theragatha com do have the same theory that any
fruition is possible for first 1000 years only call
vimuttiyuga.Samadhiyuga ,silayugga.We are in silayuga
now .Follow that ang.com our canon will lost since
buddhist year 3ooo.We are in the period of losing of
patipati(practice )day by day.1000-2000 years was the
period of correct practice but no fruition on that
period.
I like to add buddhaghosupatti(a book)said buddhaghosa
will reborn as chief monk of metteya .It think this is
true and maybe another commentator dhammapala will be
as another chief monk.No reason for an ancient book to
lie.(you should think him as patisambhida arahant if
you like because this is higher than challabhinna)
Study the com properly line by line is more urgent
than anything else for many people in theravada now.

-Teng Kee  


-- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> ---Thanks again, Teng. You're right that I hadn't
> read the 
> commentary. What did you think about the article wyn
> posted #1213? it 
> doesn't have some of the information you've been
> giving out.  
> I would like to see all the commentaries and tikas
> compared on this 
> issue.
> In some ways it is not important. As someone (maybe
> melvin?) said 
> whether we attain or not now at the very least we
> are making parami 
> and developing wisdom that brings  fruition in the
> future, maybe in a 
> deva realm or even in a future sasana. Any moments
> of insight are so 
> powerful.
> I do admire that you are prepared to point out
> problems- even when it 
> goes against the prevailing opinion- and
> discrepancies that  your 
> research shows up. I think the more information the
> better.
> None of what you say should hinder anyone's practice
> as the idea is 
> to investigate the present moment, not to sit and
> hope for 
> enlightenment. If the conditions are right insight
> will develop. the 
> pariyatti (theory)is still intact and so we can
> rejoice and learn and 
> develop the practice.
> robert
> 
> 
> 
>  Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> > dear Robert,
> > I forgot to mention that most arahant  teachers in
> com
> > was living during 1,2,3 BC,most contemporary with
> > Mahinda.That Myanmar monk already did some
> research on
> > the stories.I think you didn't read the passage i
> am
> > taliking about in anguttara nipata that all
> fruitions
> > are possible only for first 1000 years but not
> beyond
> > that( from Anguttara bhanaka).The part is in
> Anguttara
> > com 8 th nipata was came from Vinaya com.Please
> let me
> > know did you read that part in pali or not.In
> digha
> > com we can only attain sakadagami at this
> 2000-3000
> > years but samyutta com didn't give the fixed time.
> > Amara seemed to make mistake about digha com. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -  -- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> > > --- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee
> <ongtkee@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Dear Marlon,
> > > > I like give a view by a Myanmar monk who is
> > > teaching
> > > > in buddhist U. I got this view last year in
> > > Yangon.The
> > > > Buddha in Vinaya pitaka is correct for saying
> the
> > > true
> > > > dhamma will last for 500 years if we put it to
> > > mean
> > > > first 500 years will be arahant only but not
> after
> > > > that. For the next 500 years will be
> > > sakadagami,anagami
> > > > and sotapanna.This theory will be the same
> with
> > > > anguttara com in first nipata which said
> adhigamma
> > > > (attainment )period will only last 1000 years
> but
> > > not
> > > > after that.
> > > > That monk said the 8 garu dhamma  will not
> have
> > > much
> > > > change for the attainment of monks.
> > > > 
> > > > _____________________
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear teng,
> > > This is very interesting. Thanks for letting us
> > > know. It is hard to 
> > > reach any conclusion but good to get as many
> details
> > > and sources as 
> > > possible. Which buddhist university was it?
> > > But I think there are too many refernces in the
> > > commentaries to 
> > > arahants around 500-1000 years after the
> > > parinibbana, (Mahavihara in 
> > > sri lanka etc) for this to be right.
> > > Could it be 500 years for arahnats with the
> > > threefold knowledge, 500 
> > > for the six abhi~n~nas, 500are
> > > ubhatobhaaga vimutta, and then 500 for
> > > sukkhavipassaka arahant(then 
> > > 1000 for anagami, 1000 for sakadagami, 1000 for
> > > sotapanna)?. Then the 
> > > commenatry on bothy nipatas of the anguttara
> nikaya
> > > seems to line up.
> > > robert
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
_______________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at
> http://mail.yahoo.ca
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 




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--- End forwarded message ---
 
96
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 9:47am
Subject: Re: translation of commentary
--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> Dear Jim and Nina,
> I just got back from Tokyo and am behind on letters. Just to say
> I read all the posts on this and like the way you explain the
> grammatical points as you give the translation Jim. 
> 
> I'm going to forwrd some exchange I've been having with Teng kee
> in case anyone has something to add about the duration of the
> sasana.
> robert


Dear All,

I have had an exchange on this topic on another list as well but 
instead of cluttering up psg with forwarded posts, I would like those 
who would like to see mine on the subject of the duration of the 
sasana at the following link: 
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/message/19383>

Enjoy,

Amara
 
97
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue May 29, 2001 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Re: translation of commentary
Dear Jim & Nina,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote: > Dear Jim and Nina,
> I just got back from Tokyo and am behind on letters. Just to say
> I read all the posts on this and like the way you explain the
> grammatical points as you give the translation Jim. 
> 

I agree with Rob here...I thought this was very interesting and I plan to go over it more
carefully when I have a little more time. You explain very nicely, Jim.

No hurry at all, but when either of you have time, I'm keen to hear (or rather have analysed by
the 'experts' the Pali commentaries relating to those 'tanha' passages discussed earlier on dsg.
(Sorry I don't have the exact refs in mind as I write this quickly).

Sarah

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98
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: Re: correction of texts
op 28-05-2001 02:52 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...:

> Dear Nina,
> 
> Thank-you for your response and all your comments. I have looked over your
> translation below and have inserted my corrections, comments, and some
> translations (for you to compare with). I hope you will find them helpful
> and of interest. Please ask for further clarification if desired.

Dear Jim, 
I am most grateful for your corrections and I find them very helpful and
interesting. I like it to learn Pali in this way, it is very enjoyable.
Thank you very much.
> 
>> The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya commentary and
>> subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's all there is --
>> explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
>> 
>> ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
>> aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
>> naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
>> tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278 (a.t.thakathaa)
>> 
>> [subcommentary:]
>> ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaati.
>> ayamettha atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe...
>> naamakaayato"ti iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
>> tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
>> pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividha.m appattaa kevala.m pa~n~naaya
>> eva vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)
> 
 
>> ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> 
> NVG: freed in both ways: being freed in the two parts (bhaago).
> 
> JA: For 'dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa' I'm inclined to translate this as '<are>
> freed from two parts'. The past participles (eg. vimutta) are mostly in
> the past tense but your 'being freed' is in the present tense.
 
You are quite right, I should pay more attention to the plural form and the
whole grammar. While reading texts now Iam inspired to look up things more
often in Warder. I think too that instead of being freed just <are> freed
may be better, since it happened at the attainment of arahatship.
  
 JA: 'in both ways' is a common translation for
> 'ubhatobhaaga' but one also finds 'in both ways' for just the 'ubhato' part
> alone which leaves 'bhaaga' untranslated. 'ubhato' consists of the
> pronoun 'ubha' (both) and the affix 'to' which make it an indeclinable
> (nipaata) in the senses belonging to the fifth or seventh case, singular or
> plural. The syntactical relation of 'ubhato' to 'bhaaga' is unclear to me
> but according to the interpretation 'dviihi bhaagehi' it's as though only
> the pronominal adj. 'ubha' it being read without the meaning of the
> indeclinable affix 'to'. Edgerton in his BHSD has 'emancipated from both
> parts' for his ubhayatobhaagavimukta entry.

N: the suffix < to> may sugges t< from both>,abl. , thus here may be not an
adverb? I wonder whether suffix <to> also refers to <bhaaga>? What is BHSD ?
> 
> I wonder if the terms: tevijjaa, cha.labhi~n~naa, ubhatobhaagavimuttaa, and
> pa~n~naavimuttaa in the sutta (S i 191) are all functioning as nouns
> (individuals) or as adjectives or could they be either. The
> Puggalapa~n~natti treats these terms as nouns.
> 
>> aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
>> naama-kaayato ti.
> 
> NVG: he is freed from the material body by the attainment of aaruupaavacara
> (aruupajhaana), and freed from the mental body by the highest path
> (aggamagga).
> 
> JA: 'he is freed' is in the wrong number for the plural 'vimuttaa'.
> A 'vimutto' would call for the singular. I would perhaps replace 'he is'
> with 'are' to indicate a plural. Notice your use of 'from' instead of 'in'
> as in your previous sentence. The two parts (bhaaga-s) refer to 'ruupakaaya'
> and 'naamakaaya'.
> 
>> pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa tevijjaadibhaava.m
>> appattaa khii.naasavaa.
> 
> NVG: freed by pa~n~naa: he is freed by pa~n~naa: he has destroyed the
> aasavaas without having attained the threefold knowledge etc.
> 
> JA: Again, 'he is' & 'he has' should both be in the plural. You didn't
> translate '-bhaava.m'. Perhaps: 'without having attained the state of
> <possessing> the three knowledges, etc.'

N: bhaava.m : I found it difficult to translate: condition, nature, but
state seems good. 
> 
> Now the subco:
> 
>> ubhatobhaagavimuttaa ti ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaa ti.
> 
> NVG: freed in both ways: he is freed in both parts, by both parts.
> 
> JA: the subcommentary reads the fifth case plural for -bhaagehi
> and -bhaagato. This is a good example of how some Pali phrases taken
> together do not translate well into English. A literal translation would be:
> 'from both parts freed: from both parts, from both parts freed' which
> doesn't make much sense until one reads it in Pali.

N: I did not know what to choose: in or by both parts.
I read in Ven. (p. 66) : < The commentaries explain the name <<liberated in
both ways>> as meaning <<through the immaterial attainment he is liberated
from the material body and through the path (arahatship) he is liberated
from the mental body" (MA.ii, 131)>

He then quotes the sutta (M i, 477). I think that liberated from the
naamakaaya means: liberated from all defilements, and thus from rebirth.
Naamakaaya  may refer to citta and cetasikas, but in some texts it refers to
the cetasikas. In the <Netti> it refers to citta and cetasikas,as I read in
some passage. 
It would be interesting if Amara or Kom could ask Acharn Somporn about this,
or Khun Santi.A difficult subject.
Just now I found a clue in the >Netti>(Enlg p. 65, Pali p. 41): <Herein, the
naamakaaya is the footing for ignorance, the ruupakaaya is the footing for
craving. Why is that? In the kinds of existence having ruupa there is
cleaving to them, and in the formless kinds of existence there is confusion
(about them).>

Ve, Bodhi ((Mahaanidaana sutta, p.41) states:< The commentaries explain the
word ubhatobhaagavimutta as meaning both liberated through two portions and
liberated from two portions. >
> 
>> ayamettha attho ti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe...
>> naamakaayato"ti iminaa.
> 
> NVG: This here (ayamettha) is the meaning. He shows by this (iminaa) : <
> freed by two ways, aruupa...etc. ...he is freed from the mental body >.
> 
> JA: I take 'ayamettha attho' to be the patient of 'dasseti' ie: He shows:
> 'this here is the meaning' with this: '<are> freed from the two parts,
> aruupa . . . <are freed> from the mental body.' Or simply put: he shows x by
> means of y.
>
N: Yes, you are right: ayamettha attho ti is the patient of dasseti.
>> tevijjaadibhaavan ti tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> 
> NVG: The threefold knowledge and others (aadi) are existing, the threefold
> knowledge, the six abhi~n~naa, the four discriminations (pa.tisambhidas).
> 
> JA: The state of <possessing> the three knowledges, etc: the state of
> <possessing> the three knowledges, the six superknowledges, or the four
> discriminations.

> N: Yes, again bhaava.m: you are right: the state...

Do you have to type out all these texts or do you copy them even with the
Email accents? I ask this with a view on future texts, I do not want to take
up too much of your time. Thank you very much again, Nina.
 
99
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:46pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] Re: Duration of sasana
--- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
Dear robert,
I still haven't get any reply from you about
sakkapanha sutta last night.I just like to add sakka
first and sixth rebirth will be sakka devaraja .2,3,4
will as deva.Fifth will a human.The sixth rebirth as a
sakka will be sakadagami.The seventh rebirth will be
going plane by plane until the highest suddhavasa
world as a anagami.The  time spend in suddhavasa will
be 31 kappa.
The jhana anagami mention in samyutta nikaya com is in
vol.5 mahavagga--indriya samyutta--jaravagga--sutta
no.2 -unnabrahmanasutta. see the com .The sutta have
mentioned about retaining in this world.I think
anagami in this sutta is different from the ordinary
anagami as a monk. (i will have more idea soon)see
abhidhammatthasangaha tika by sumangala who said
aniyama(not a natural)event for anagami to reborn in
suddhavasa.
Have you found the ang. com about sasana declining.I
like to mention the vinaya com of anagami is possible
now come from khuddaka bhanaka(khukkanikaya reciter
only)>majjhima and samyutta reciter did not give any
time.Anguttara reciter is the word from anuruddha or
his students.It is considered more accurate compare to
digha and khuddaka reciter.




--- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> --- In Triplegem@y..., r us. 
> > 
> > As the Buddha said (in Tipitaka Texts), there
> would be continuous 
> > lines of Arahats in the presence of his Teachings
> and the Order of 
> > Sangha, we should not question or over-rule the
> Tipitaka Texts in 
> > favour of Commentaries.
> > 
> > _______________________
> 
> Dear Melvin,
> One of the problems we have seen in this thread is
> that in the 
> Tipitaka (not the commentaries) it is recorded that
> the Buddha said 
> the Sasana would only last 500 years. I think you
> cited this in an 
> article which you said was reliable. So are you
> going to chose this 
> over the commentaries?
> It is not so clear cut all these matters, so when we
> have someone 
> like Teng - a bonafide pali scholar - it is good to
> learn what he has 
> found. I reach no conclusions about the length of
> the sasana because 
> even in the tipitaka there are different pointers
> given. Sometimes it 
> does say that if the pariyatti remains then the
> practice and release 
> will remain. At other times they say that when
> counterfeit Dhamma 
> arises the sasana will decline..
> I met an alleged arahant in Thailand - he was famous
> for a long time 
> until certain events made him notorious. The same
> people that 
> worshipped him then despised him. Yet, I still think
> of him in the 
> same way that I did when we first met - as a friend-
> because I had no 
> idea that he was an arahant. I simply listened to
> him, considered 
> what he said in light of what I had learnt from the
> Tipitaka and also 
> whether it helped me understand this moment.  
> robert
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 



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--- End forwarded message ---
 
100
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 9:48pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: [Triplegem] Re: Duration of sasana
--- In Triplegem@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
Dear Robert,
Please go to www.tipitaka.org to read sakka panha
sutta in pali.At the end of the sutta,you will find it
in a long verse.(section no 8.)catutha manussa
.punadeva loka after this.See com already confirm it
as manussa loka.It is easy to read.I don't have the
book in my office.There seems to a malaysian english
online on this sutta study a few months ago mention by
you .
An ornament ... near the vm.This is a phrase near the
end in every com by buddhaghosa.Check it out for his
other books.It is a tribute to monks.
The book -the future buddha is published by BPS in Sri
lanka.Order it from them
I can't give the exact page for samyutta com of
anagami because there are too many versions.Please buy
bhikkhu bodhi samyutta.He has tran. a com note in his
samyutta book 2.
Go to www.tipitaka.org-anguttara com
ekaniptaka-section no.10.You will find adhigamma
antaradhana etc....
Sakka seemed to say he will passed away soon after
hearing the sutta from buddha.Maybe by reborn as a
human in other buddha sasana can be a commenatator for
that buddha?Remember he will even going up plane by
plane in pure abode--it will be many kappa for his
seventh rebirth in pure abode.
--- End forwarded message ---

101
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: twofold ta.nhaa
Dear Sarah,

>No hurry at all, but when either of you have time, I'm keen to hear
>(or rather have analysed by the 'experts' the Pali commentaries
>relating to those 'tanha' passages discussed earlier on dsg.
>(Sorry I don't have the exact refs in mind as I write this quickly).

Are you thinking of a line by line translation and analysis? It would be
fairly lengthy undertaking but if you really insist we can have a go at it
but with no guarantee of understanding what it's really all about. I have
clipped what I believe to be the relevant passages from the three Netti
commentaries in case you or others would like to look them over and maybe
try to make sense of them or translate while I work on my response to Nina's
latest message.

netti p.87

tattha ta.nhaa duvidhaa: kusalaa pi akusalaa pi.

akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii, kusalaa apacayagaaminii pahaanata.nhaa.

nett-a

tattha kusalaa ti kusaladhammaaramma.naa.

kusala-saddo cettha baahitikasutte (Myanmar MN 2.358 aadayo) viya
anavajjatthe da.t.thabbo.

kasmaa panettha ta.nhaa kusalapariyaayena uddha.taa?

he.t.thaa desanaahaare vipallaasahetubhaavena ta.nha.m uddharitvaa tassaa
vasena sa.mkilesapakkho dassito.

vicittapa.tibhaanataaya pana idhaapi ta.nhaamukheneva vodaanapakkha.m
dassetu.m kusalapariyaayena ta.nhaa uddha.taa.

tattha sa.msaara.m gametiiti sa.msaaragaaminii, sa.msaaranaayikaati attho.

apacaya.m nibbaana.m gametiiti apacayagaaminii.

katha.m pana ta.nhaa apacayagaaminiiti? aaha ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti.

tada"ngaadippahaanassa hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa.

katha.m pana ekantasaavajjaaya ta.nhaaya kusalabhaavoti?

sevitabbabhaavato.

yathaa ta.nhaa, eva.m maanopi duvidho kusalopi akusalopi, na ta.nhaa evaati
ta.nhaaya nidassanabhaavena maano vutto.

nett-t

53. kusaladhammaaramma.naati kusaladhamme uddissa pavattimatta.m
sandhaaya vutta.m, na tesa.m aaramma.napaccayata.m idha ``kusalaa
dhammaa''ti lokuttaradhammaana.m adhippetattaa.

na hi kadaaci anupaadaaniyaa dhammaa upaadaanaaramma.naa honti.

phaladhamme uddissa pavattaaya ta.nhaaya gahitattaa ``kusala ...pe...
da.t.thabbo''ti vutta.m.

desanaahaareti desanaahaarasampaate.

katha.m pana kusalabhaavoti ``kusalaa''ti vacanamatta.m gahetvaa codeti,
ta~nca nidassanamatta.m da.t.thabba.m, pahaanahetubhaavopissaa siyaa
codakena sampa.ticchitova.

``maanopi duvidho''tiaadinaa maanassa ca tassaa ta.nhaaya ca
sevitabbabhaavo akusalaana.m pahaanaaya, kusalaana.m uppattiyaa ca
paccayabhaavato.

nett-v

tattha tatthaati tasmi.m ``arakkhitena cittenaa''tiaadisuttatthe
desanaahaarasampaatena sa.mva.n.nite akusaladhamme ``ta.nhaa''ti
niddhaaritaa sabbata.nhaa.

kusalaapiiti catubhuumake kusale uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapi.

akusalaapii ti akusaladhamme uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapiiti duvidhaa hotiiti
vicayitabbaa. tena vutta.m .tiikaaya.m -- ``kusaladhammaaramma.naati
kusaladhamme uddissa pavattamatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na tesa.m
aaramma.napaccayata.m, idha `kusalaa dhammaa'ti lokuttaradhammaanampi
adhippetattaa''ti.

``kusalaa  ta.nhaa ki.mgaaminii, akusalaa ta.nhaa ki.m gaaminii''ti
pucchitabbattaa ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.

atha vaa ``katamo kusalaakusalata.nhaana.m viseso''ti pucchitabbattaa
``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.

``ta.nhaa naama sa.msaaragaaminii hotu, katha.m apacayagaaminii''ti
vattabbattaa ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti vutta.m, pahaanassa hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa
pahaanata.nhaati attho, pahaatabbata.nha.m aagamma ya.m pahaana.m
pavattetabba.m, tena pavattetabbena pahaanena apacaya.m gacchatiiti vutta.m
hoti.

``ki.m pana ta.nhaayeva kusalaakusalaati dubbidhaa, udaahu a~n~nopi
kusalaakusalaati dubbidho''ti vattabbattaa ``maanopii''tiaadi vutta.m.
``katamo maano kusalo, katamo maano akusalo''ti pucchitabbattaa ``ya.m
maana.m nissaaya maana.m pajahati, aya.m maano kusalo.

yo pana maano dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano akusalo''ti vutta.m.

tattha ya.m maana.m ...pe... kusaloti ya.m maana.m nissaaya upanissaaya
pahaana.m pavattita.m, tena pahaanena santaane uppajjanaaraha.m maana.m
pajahati, aya.m upanissayapaccayabhuuto maano phaluupacaarena kusalo.

yo pana ...pe... akusaloti yo pana maano parahi.msanaadivasena pavattamaano
hutvaa attano ca parassa ca dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano akusaloti
vicayitvaa veditabbo.

``sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu taasu ta.nhaasu katamaa apacayagaaminii
ta.nhaa kusalaa''ti pucchitabbattaa ``kusalaa''ti vuttaaya ta.nhaaya
saruupa.m dassetu.m ``tattha ya.m nekkhammasita''ntiaadi vutta.m.

tatthaati taasu sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu ta.nhaabhuutaasu
kusalaakusalaasu. aya.m ta.nhaa kusalaati sambandho.

``ariyaa puggalaa santa.m aayatana.m ya.m ariyaphaladhamma.m sacchikatvaa
upasampajja viharanti, ta.m aayatana.m ariyaphaladhamma.m aha.m kudaassu
sacchikatvaa viharissa''nti patthayantassa tassa kulaputtassa tasmi.m
ariyaphale pihaa uppajjati, pihaapaccayaa ya.m domanassa.m uppajjati, ida.m
domanassa.m ``nekkhammasita''nti vuccati.

aya.m ariyaphale pihaasa"nkhaataa ta.nhaa kusalaa anavajjaa
anavajjaariyaphaladhamma.m uddissa pavattattaati vicayitabba.m.




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102
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:09am
Subject: Re: twofold ta.nhaa
Jim,
Can I just add that I think this is a very worthwhile
undertaking. We can all look and perhaps we won't get a firm
conclusion but maybe we will learn something.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> >No hurry at all, but when either of you have time, I'm keen
> to hear
> >(or rather have analysed by the 'experts' the Pali
> commentaries
> >relating to those 'tanha' passages discussed earlier on dsg.
> >(Sorry I don't have the exact refs in mind as I write this
> quickly).
> 
> Are you thinking of a line by line translation and analysis?
> It would be
> fairly lengthy undertaking but if you really insist we can
> have a go at it
> but with no guarantee of understanding what it's really all
> about. I have
> clipped what I believe to be the relevant passages from the
> three Netti
> commentaries in case you or others would like to look them
> over and maybe
> try to make sense of them or translate while I work on my
> response to Nina's
> latest message.
> 
> netti p.87
> 
> tattha ta.nhaa duvidhaa: kusalaa pi akusalaa pi.
> 
> akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii, kusalaa apacayagaaminii
> pahaanata.nhaa.
> 
> nett-a
> 
> tattha kusalaa ti kusaladhammaaramma.naa.
> 
> kusala-saddo cettha baahitikasutte (Myanmar MN 2.358 aadayo)
> viya
> anavajjatthe da.t.thabbo.
> 
> kasmaa panettha ta.nhaa kusalapariyaayena uddha.taa?
> 
> he.t.thaa desanaahaare vipallaasahetubhaavena ta.nha.m
> uddharitvaa tassaa
> vasena sa.mkilesapakkho dassito.
> 
> vicittapa.tibhaanataaya pana idhaapi ta.nhaamukheneva
> vodaanapakkha.m
> dassetu.m kusalapariyaayena ta.nhaa uddha.taa.
> 
> tattha sa.msaara.m gametiiti sa.msaaragaaminii,
> sa.msaaranaayikaati attho.
> 
> apacaya.m nibbaana.m gametiiti apacayagaaminii.
> 
> katha.m pana ta.nhaa apacayagaaminiiti? aaha
> ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti.
> 
> tada"ngaadippahaanassa hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa.
> 
> katha.m pana ekantasaavajjaaya ta.nhaaya kusalabhaavoti?
> 
> sevitabbabhaavato.
> 
> yathaa ta.nhaa, eva.m maanopi duvidho kusalopi akusalopi, na
> ta.nhaa evaati
> ta.nhaaya nidassanabhaavena maano vutto.
> 
> nett-t
> 
> 53. kusaladhammaaramma.naati kusaladhamme uddissa
> pavattimatta.m
> sandhaaya vutta.m, na tesa.m aaramma.napaccayata.m idha
> ``kusalaa
> dhammaa''ti lokuttaradhammaana.m adhippetattaa.
> 
> na hi kadaaci anupaadaaniyaa dhammaa upaadaanaaramma.naa
> honti.
> 
> phaladhamme uddissa pavattaaya ta.nhaaya gahitattaa ``kusala
> ...pe...
> da.t.thabbo''ti vutta.m.
> 
> desanaahaareti desanaahaarasampaate.
> 
> katha.m pana kusalabhaavoti ``kusalaa''ti vacanamatta.m
> gahetvaa codeti,
> ta~nca nidassanamatta.m da.t.thabba.m, pahaanahetubhaavopissaa
> siyaa
> codakena sampa.ticchitova.
> 
> ``maanopi duvidho''tiaadinaa maanassa ca tassaa ta.nhaaya ca
> sevitabbabhaavo akusalaana.m pahaanaaya, kusalaana.m
> uppattiyaa ca
> paccayabhaavato.
> 
> nett-v
> 
> tattha tatthaati tasmi.m ``arakkhitena
> cittenaa''tiaadisuttatthe
> desanaahaarasampaatena sa.mva.n.nite akusaladhamme
> ``ta.nhaa''ti
> niddhaaritaa sabbata.nhaa.
> 
> kusalaapiiti catubhuumake kusale uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapi.
> 
> akusalaapii ti akusaladhamme uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapiiti
> duvidhaa hotiiti
> vicayitabbaa. tena vutta.m .tiikaaya.m --
> ``kusaladhammaaramma.naati
> kusaladhamme uddissa pavattamatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na
> tesa.m
> aaramma.napaccayata.m, idha `kusalaa dhammaa'ti
> lokuttaradhammaanampi
> adhippetattaa''ti.
> 
> ``kusalaa  ta.nhaa ki.mgaaminii, akusalaa ta.nhaa ki.m
> gaaminii''ti
> pucchitabbattaa ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.
> 
> atha vaa ``katamo kusalaakusalata.nhaana.m viseso''ti
> pucchitabbattaa
> ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.
> 
> ``ta.nhaa naama sa.msaaragaaminii hotu, katha.m
> apacayagaaminii''ti
> vattabbattaa ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti vutta.m, pahaanassa
> hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa
> pahaanata.nhaati attho, pahaatabbata.nha.m aagamma ya.m
> pahaana.m
> pavattetabba.m, tena pavattetabbena pahaanena apacaya.m
> gacchatiiti vutta.m
> hoti.
> 
> ``ki.m pana ta.nhaayeva kusalaakusalaati dubbidhaa, udaahu
> a~n~nopi
> kusalaakusalaati dubbidho''ti vattabbattaa ``maanopii''tiaadi
> vutta.m.
> ``katamo maano kusalo, katamo maano akusalo''ti
> pucchitabbattaa ``ya.m
> maana.m nissaaya maana.m pajahati, aya.m maano kusalo.
> 
> yo pana maano dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano akusalo''ti
> vutta.m.
> 
> tattha ya.m maana.m ...pe... kusaloti ya.m maana.m nissaaya
> upanissaaya
> pahaana.m pavattita.m, tena pahaanena santaane
> uppajjanaaraha.m maana.m
> pajahati, aya.m upanissayapaccayabhuuto maano phaluupacaarena
> kusalo.
> 
> yo pana ...pe... akusaloti yo pana maano parahi.msanaadivasena
> pavattamaano
> hutvaa attano ca parassa ca dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano
> akusaloti
> vicayitvaa veditabbo.
> 
> ``sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu taasu ta.nhaasu katamaa
> apacayagaaminii
> ta.nhaa kusalaa''ti pucchitabbattaa ``kusalaa''ti vuttaaya
> ta.nhaaya
> saruupa.m dassetu.m ``tattha ya.m nekkhammasita''ntiaadi
> vutta.m.
> 
> tatthaati taasu sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu ta.nhaabhuutaasu
> kusalaakusalaasu. aya.m ta.nhaa kusalaati sambandho.
> 
> ``ariyaa puggalaa santa.m aayatana.m ya.m ariyaphaladhamma.m
> sacchikatvaa
> upasampajja viharanti, ta.m aayatana.m ariyaphaladhamma.m
> aha.m kudaassu
> sacchikatvaa viharissa''nti patthayantassa tassa kulaputtassa
> tasmi.m
> ariyaphale pihaa uppajjati, pihaapaccayaa ya.m domanassa.m
> uppajjati, ida.m
> domanassa.m ``nekkhammasita''nti vuccati.
> 
> aya.m ariyaphale pihaasa"nkhaataa ta.nhaa kusalaa anavajjaa
> anavajjaariyaphaladhamma.m uddissa pavattattaati
> vicayitabba.m.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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103
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 0:28am
Subject: Re: twofold ta.nhaa
Dear Jim and Sarah,

I totally agree with Rob, do translate it, Sarah, and have Jim correct 
it as Nina did, that should be so great, and very helpful for us all. 
 In the meantime may I remind Jim of my 'citta' passage from long ago? 
 I think that it should be fun to compare the language as well.

Lots of work for you, sir!

Your grateful student thanking you in advance,

Amara


--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> Jim,
> Can I just add that I think this is a very worthwhile
> undertaking. We can all look and perhaps we won't get a firm
> conclusion but maybe we will learn something.
> robert
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Sarah,
> > 
> > >No hurry at all, but when either of you have time, I'm keen
> > to hear
> > >(or rather have analysed by the 'experts' the Pali
> > commentaries
> > >relating to those 'tanha' passages discussed earlier on dsg.
> > >(Sorry I don't have the exact refs in mind as I write this
> > quickly).
> > 
> > Are you thinking of a line by line translation and analysis?
> > It would be
> > fairly lengthy undertaking but if you really insist we can
> > have a go at it
> > but with no guarantee of understanding what it's really all
> > about. I have
> > clipped what I believe to be the relevant passages from the
> > three Netti
> > commentaries in case you or others would like to look them
> > over and maybe
> > try to make sense of them or translate while I work on my
> > response to Nina's
> > latest message.
> > 
> > netti p.87
> > 
> > tattha ta.nhaa duvidhaa: kusalaa pi akusalaa pi.
> > 
> > akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii, kusalaa apacayagaaminii
> > pahaanata.nhaa.
> > 
> > nett-a
> > 
> > tattha kusalaa ti kusaladhammaaramma.naa.
> > 
> > kusala-saddo cettha baahitikasutte (Myanmar MN 2.358 aadayo)
> > viya
> > anavajjatthe da.t.thabbo.
> > 
> > kasmaa panettha ta.nhaa kusalapariyaayena uddha.taa?
> > 
> > he.t.thaa desanaahaare vipallaasahetubhaavena ta.nha.m
> > uddharitvaa tassaa
> > vasena sa.mkilesapakkho dassito.
> > 
> > vicittapa.tibhaanataaya pana idhaapi ta.nhaamukheneva
> > vodaanapakkha.m
> > dassetu.m kusalapariyaayena ta.nhaa uddha.taa.
> > 
> > tattha sa.msaara.m gametiiti sa.msaaragaaminii,
> > sa.msaaranaayikaati attho.
> > 
> > apacaya.m nibbaana.m gametiiti apacayagaaminii.
> > 
> > katha.m pana ta.nhaa apacayagaaminiiti? aaha
> > ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti.
> > 
> > tada"ngaadippahaanassa hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa.
> > 
> > katha.m pana ekantasaavajjaaya ta.nhaaya kusalabhaavoti?
> > 
> > sevitabbabhaavato.
> > 
> > yathaa ta.nhaa, eva.m maanopi duvidho kusalopi akusalopi, na
> > ta.nhaa evaati
> > ta.nhaaya nidassanabhaavena maano vutto.
> > 
> > nett-t
> > 
> > 53. kusaladhammaaramma.naati kusaladhamme uddissa
> > pavattimatta.m
> > sandhaaya vutta.m, na tesa.m aaramma.napaccayata.m idha
> > ``kusalaa
> > dhammaa''ti lokuttaradhammaana.m adhippetattaa.
> > 
> > na hi kadaaci anupaadaaniyaa dhammaa upaadaanaaramma.naa
> > honti.
> > 
> > phaladhamme uddissa pavattaaya ta.nhaaya gahitattaa ``kusala
> > ...pe...
> > da.t.thabbo''ti vutta.m.
> > 
> > desanaahaareti desanaahaarasampaate.
> > 
> > katha.m pana kusalabhaavoti ``kusalaa''ti vacanamatta.m
> > gahetvaa codeti,
> > ta~nca nidassanamatta.m da.t.thabba.m, pahaanahetubhaavopissaa
> > siyaa
> > codakena sampa.ticchitova.
> > 
> > ``maanopi duvidho''tiaadinaa maanassa ca tassaa ta.nhaaya ca
> > sevitabbabhaavo akusalaana.m pahaanaaya, kusalaana.m
> > uppattiyaa ca
> > paccayabhaavato.
> > 
> > nett-v
> > 
> > tattha tatthaati tasmi.m ``arakkhitena
> > cittenaa''tiaadisuttatthe
> > desanaahaarasampaatena sa.mva.n.nite akusaladhamme
> > ``ta.nhaa''ti
> > niddhaaritaa sabbata.nhaa.
> > 
> > kusalaapiiti catubhuumake kusale uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapi.
> > 
> > akusalaapii ti akusaladhamme uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapiiti
> > duvidhaa hotiiti
> > vicayitabbaa. tena vutta.m .tiikaaya.m --
> > ``kusaladhammaaramma.naati
> > kusaladhamme uddissa pavattamatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na
> > tesa.m
> > aaramma.napaccayata.m, idha `kusalaa dhammaa'ti
> > lokuttaradhammaanampi
> > adhippetattaa''ti.
> > 
> > ``kusalaa  ta.nhaa ki.mgaaminii, akusalaa ta.nhaa ki.m
> > gaaminii''ti
> > pucchitabbattaa ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.
> > 
> > atha vaa ``katamo kusalaakusalata.nhaana.m viseso''ti
> > pucchitabbattaa
> > ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.
> > 
> > ``ta.nhaa naama sa.msaaragaaminii hotu, katha.m
> > apacayagaaminii''ti
> > vattabbattaa ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti vutta.m, pahaanassa
> > hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa
> > pahaanata.nhaati attho, pahaatabbata.nha.m aagamma ya.m
> > pahaana.m
> > pavattetabba.m, tena pavattetabbena pahaanena apacaya.m
> > gacchatiiti vutta.m
> > hoti.
> > 
> > ``ki.m pana ta.nhaayeva kusalaakusalaati dubbidhaa, udaahu
> > a~n~nopi
> > kusalaakusalaati dubbidho''ti vattabbattaa ``maanopii''tiaadi
> > vutta.m.
> > ``katamo maano kusalo, katamo maano akusalo''ti
> > pucchitabbattaa ``ya.m
> > maana.m nissaaya maana.m pajahati, aya.m maano kusalo.
> > 
> > yo pana maano dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano akusalo''ti
> > vutta.m.
> > 
> > tattha ya.m maana.m ...pe... kusaloti ya.m maana.m nissaaya
> > upanissaaya
> > pahaana.m pavattita.m, tena pahaanena santaane
> > uppajjanaaraha.m maana.m
> > pajahati, aya.m upanissayapaccayabhuuto maano phaluupacaarena
> > kusalo.
> > 
> > yo pana ...pe... akusaloti yo pana maano parahi.msanaadivasena
> > pavattamaano
> > hutvaa attano ca parassa ca dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano
> > akusaloti
> > vicayitvaa veditabbo.
> > 
> > ``sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu taasu ta.nhaasu katamaa
> > apacayagaaminii
> > ta.nhaa kusalaa''ti pucchitabbattaa ``kusalaa''ti vuttaaya
> > ta.nhaaya
> > saruupa.m dassetu.m ``tattha ya.m nekkhammasita''ntiaadi
> > vutta.m.
> > 
> > tatthaati taasu sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu ta.nhaabhuutaasu
> > kusalaakusalaasu. aya.m ta.nhaa kusalaati sambandho.
> > 
> > ``ariyaa puggalaa santa.m aayatana.m ya.m ariyaphaladhamma.m
> > sacchikatvaa
> > upasampajja viharanti, ta.m aayatana.m ariyaphaladhamma.m
> > aha.m kudaassu
> > sacchikatvaa viharissa''nti patthayantassa tassa kulaputtassa
> > tasmi.m
> > ariyaphale pihaa uppajjati, pihaapaccayaa ya.m domanassa.m
> > uppajjati, ida.m
> > domanassa.m ``nekkhammasita''nti vuccati.
> > 
> > aya.m ariyaphale pihaasa"nkhaataa ta.nhaa kusalaa anavajjaa
> > anavajjaariyaphaladhamma.m uddissa pavattattaati
> > vicayitabba.m.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
104
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 2:10am
Subject: Re: twofold ta.nhaa
Dear Jim,

Thanks for this.

Of course there's no way my kindergarten pali is up to translating (I'd never have the time
either), but perhaps as a first step Rob and I can take a look , try to identify key lines or
phrases and ask for any help we need with particular expressions and then go from there. It'll
probably be Sunday afternoon for me before I can look at it. (Rob, I'll be very happy if you're
ahead of me as usual!!)

Nina may have already looked over these passages and of course I would appreciate her comments
too. Pls don't become a 'translation service' and just stick to what interests you Jim!!

Many thanks,
Sarah

 

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105
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:39am
Subject: Re: twofold ta.nhaa
> Nina may have already looked over these passages and of course I 
would appreciate her comments
> too. Pls don't become a 'translation service' and just stick to what 
interests you Jim!!


Dear all,

I'm sure Nina will enjoy this most of all in any case, and I really 
enjoy reading all the excercises, although it may take some time 
before I really understand what's going on!  Almost like evesdropping, 
although I've never tried that before, personally.
=^_^=
Amara
 
106
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 9:48am
Subject: a new member
Dear List members,

I would like to welcome Teng Kee as a new member of our group. Teng Kee
is working on a translation of the Puggalapa~n~natti commentary. In a
private note he gives this comment on the 'ubhatobhaagavimutto':

<< Ubhotavimuttho is a hell term for me and my friends
(thai and myanmar monks)where we try to
tran.puggalapannati com for pts.There are not the same
for suttanta and abhidhamma method.Abhidhamma method
have two ubhotovimutto like the one in kitagiri sutta
and the other one in puggalapannti com.Every
samathayanika seems to be a ubhottovimuttho in
abhidhhama method but the suttanta method in
Visuddhimagga is Okay.But for sure an eassy of JPTS
said ubhovimuttho is not an original word in
tipitaka(by a lady scholar)is totally wrong. >>

J: I must say this is turning out to be a hell term for me too after
glancing through the PP atthakatha, mulatika, and anutika last night. There
are several interpretations and it's very difficult to work through them.

Best wishes,
Jim


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107
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 10:45am
Subject: Re: a new member
Very happy to welcome you Teng kee. Jim told me he was going to
invite you and I am thrilled that you accepted. I always value
your input and comments on the other lists . One of the
advantages of this small group is that all of us have a basic
confidence in the Tipitaka and commentaries so we can get down
to the real work of trying to understand them. Jim is a
marvellous help and gentle teacher to the ones like me who are
novices in pali.
The problem word sounds fascinating and important to understand.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear List members,
> 
> I would like to welcome Teng Kee as a new member of our group.
> Teng Kee
> is working on a translation of the Puggalapa~n~natti
> commentary. In a
> private note he gives this comment on the
> 'ubhatobhaagavimutto':
> 
> << Ubhotavimuttho is a hell term for me and my friends
> (thai and myanmar monks)where we try to
> tran.puggalapannati com for pts.There are not the same
> for suttanta and abhidhamma method.Abhidhamma method
> have two ubhotovimutto like the one in kitagiri sutta
> and the other one in puggalapannti com.Every
> samathayanika seems to be a ubhottovimuttho in
> abhidhhama method but the suttanta method in
> Visuddhimagga is Okay.But for sure an eassy of JPTS
> said ubhovimuttho is not an original word in
> tipitaka(by a lady scholar)is totally wrong. >>
> 
> J: I must say this is turning out to be a hell term for me too
> after
> glancing through the PP atthakatha, mulatika, and anutika last
> night. There
> are several interpretations and it's very difficult to work
> through them.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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108
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 0:48pm
Subject: Re: a new member
Dear Teng Kee,

Welcome to the group from me too!  
(Too bad you and Jim are finding hell in a term of enlightenment; I am 
tempted to say it's only pannatti!)

Anumodana in the great kusala cetana to share the teachings,

Amara

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear List members,
> 
> I would like to welcome Teng Kee as a new member of our group. Teng 
Kee
> is working on a translation of the Puggalapa~n~natti commentary. In 
a
> private note he gives this comment on the 'ubhatobhaagavimutto':
> 
> << Ubhotavimuttho is a hell term for me and my friends
> (thai and myanmar monks)where we try to
> tran.puggalapannati com for pts.There are not the same
> for suttanta and abhidhamma method.Abhidhamma method
> have two ubhotovimutto like the one in kitagiri sutta
> and the other one in puggalapannti com.Every
> samathayanika seems to be a ubhottovimuttho in
> abhidhhama method but the suttanta method in
> Visuddhimagga is Okay.But for sure an eassy of JPTS
> said ubhovimuttho is not an original word in
> tipitaka(by a lady scholar)is totally wrong. >>
> 
> J: I must say this is turning out to be a hell term for me too after
> glancing through the PP atthakatha, mulatika, and anutika last 
night. There
> are several interpretations and it's very difficult to work through 
them.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
109
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 7:09pm
Subject: Re: a new member
Dear Teng kee,

I'm very pleased to see you here. I'm sure you'll be able to help us all  and correct our 'wrong
views'!!!! ;-))

Sarah

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Dear List members,
> 
> I would like to welcome Teng Kee as a new member of our group. 

_______________________________________________________________________
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110
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 11:09am
Subject: commentary
Dear Kengtee, welcome to the group. You are translating the Co to the
Puggala pa`n`natti. I wonder whether you know of the translation in Thai
from Somporn Sriwarathit. I have an old edition of 1969, and looked up
ubhatobhaaga vimutta. It is very good. The Thai monks could inquire about a
reprint, Acharn Somporn is still teaching in Bangkok. Best wishes, Nina van
Gorkom.
 
111
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: correction of texts
Dear Nina,

>> JA: For 'dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa' I'm inclined to translate this as
>> '<are> freed from two parts'. The past participles (eg. vimutta)
>> are mostly in the past tense but your 'being freed' is in the present
>> tense.
>
>You are quite right, I should pay more attention to the plural form and the
>whole grammar. While reading texts now Iam inspired to look up things more
>often in Warder. I think too that instead of being freed just <are> freed
>may be better, since it happened at the attainment of arahatship.

I'm not sure if this applies in the case of 'vimutta' but for past
participle agent-nouns such as 'buddha' there is a rule in the Saddaniiti
(sutta 1144) that allows for the tense to include present and future time
(sabbakaala). 'being freed' in Pali would be 'vimuccanta' (see further
below)

>N: the suffix < to> may sugges t< from both>,abl. , thus here may be not an
>adverb? I wonder whether suffix <to> also refers to <bhaaga>? What is BHSD?

'ubhato' (in both ways) is listed as an adverb in PED (PTS's Pali-English
dictionary). Warder has very little to say about the -to suffix but there's
more to it if one studies it in the native grammars (Saddaniiti, etc.). It's
usage not only includes the ablative, but also the locative, instrumental
and genitive. In Sanskrit there is distinguished two adverbial '-to'
suffixes (tasi & tasil = ta.h eg. ubhayata.h).

BHSD refers to the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary (first published in
1953). It includes reference to the Pali equivalents as it does in the
'ubhatobhaagavimukta' entry and even quotes from the Pali commentary. It
also has: "The AbhidhK. vi.276 has a different interpretation acc. to La
V-P., 'delivered from the obstacle of the passions (impurities,
kle"saavara.na), and from the obstacle to (the 8) vimok.sa (which is stated
to be akarma.nyataa, l'impuissance corporelle et mentale). This seems to be
a later reinterpretation; the Pali comms. make it simpler, referring to the
physical and mental constituents. Which was meant in our texts is not clear
from the contexts."

>> JA: the subcommentary reads the fifth case plural for -bhaagehi
>> and -bhaagato. This is a good example of how some Pali phrases taken
>> together do not translate well into English. A literal translation would
>> be: 'from both parts freed: from both parts, from both parts freed' which
>> doesn't make much sense until one reads it in Pali.

I would now have to admit that a third case plural is possible for -bhagehi.

>N: I did not know what to choose: in or by both parts.
>I read in Ven. (p. 66) : < The commentaries explain the name <<liberated in
>both ways>> as meaning <<through the immaterial attainment he is liberated
>from the material body and through the path (arahatship) he is liberated
>from the mental body" (MA.ii, 131)>

The Pali passage that he translated is very much the same as the one you
translated at SA i 278. The MA ii 131 ref. is incorrect if the PTS ed. is
meant. I found the passage at MA iii 188 (for Kitagirisutta).

>He then quotes the sutta (M i, 477). I think that liberated from the
>naamakaaya means: liberated from all defilements, and thus from rebirth.
>Naamakaaya  may refer to citta and cetasikas, but in some texts it refers
>to the cetasikas. In the <Netti> it refers to citta and cetasikas,as I read
>in some passage.

Naamakaaya is mentioned in the Mahanidaanasutta and its tiika leaves little
doubt that it refers to the four immaterial khandhas.

>It would be interesting if Amara or Kom could ask Acharn Somporn about
>this, or Khun Santi.A difficult subject.
>Just now I found a clue in the >Netti>(Enlg p. 65, Pali p. 41): <Herein,
>the naamakaaya is the footing for ignorance, the ruupakaaya is the footing
>for craving. Why is that? In the kinds of existence having ruupa there is
>cleaving to them, and in the formless kinds of existence there is confusion
>(about them).>

Thanks for the Netti clue.

>Ve, Bodhi ((Mahaanidaana sutta, p.41) states:< The commentaries explain the
>word ubhatobhaagavimutta as meaning both liberated through two portions and
>liberated from two portions. >

I have since looked at what other commentaries say about the term. One of
the problems is knowing what the two parts refer to. I think what B.Bodhi
states agrees with  DA.T ii 154-5:

dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ti aruupajjhaanena vikkhambhanavimokkhena,
maggena samucchedavimokkhenaa ti dviihi vimuccanabhaagehi,
aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato, maggena naamakaayato ti dviihi
vimuccitabbabhaagehi ca vimutto.

dviihi bhaagehi vimutto: freed by the two parts of freedom thus: by the
deliverance of suppression with the immaterial jhaana, by the deliverance of
cutting off with the path; and (freed) from the two parts to be freed thus:
from the material body with the attainment of the formless, from the mental
body with the path. (my rough translation)

An interesting comment on 'vimutto':

vimutto ti kilesehi vimutto vimuccanto ca; kilesaana.m
vikkhambhanasamucchedehi kayadvayato vimutto ti ayamettha attho.

Notice 'vimuccanto' -- your 'being freed'!

I don't want to get into the Puggalapa~n~natti commentaries as they'll just
make an already complicated subject all the more complicated but I quote the
following from the PP. muula.tikaa which briefly sets out the three
interpretations for comparison:

pa.thamattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ubhatobhaagavimutto,
dutiyattheravaade ubhato bhaagato vimutto ti ubhatobhaagavimutto ti,
tatiyattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi dve vaare vimutto ti ayam etesa.m viseso.

>Do you have to type out all these texts or do you copy them even with the
>Email accents? I ask this with a view on future texts, I do not want to
>take up too much of your time. Thank you very much again, Nina.

I typed out the Samyutta atthakatha and tika passages with all the
diacritical marks. Since they were short it doesn't take long to type out.
For longer passages I would use copy and paste then convert to the email
format like I did with the Netti commentarial passages I recently posted.

Best wishes,
Jim


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112
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Re: ubhato again
op 04-06-2001 02:59 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...:

J:
'ubhato' (in both ways) is listed as an adverb in PED (PTS's Pali-English
dictionary). Warder has very little to say about the -to suffix but there's
more to it if one studies it in the native grammars (Saddaniiti, etc.). It's
usage not only includes the ablative, but also the locative, instrumental
and genitive. In Sanskrit there is distinguished two adverbial '-to'
suffixes (tasi & tasil = ta.h eg. ubhayata.h).

N:I found in Warder Ch 26: ubhato: on both sides, but I agree there is more
to it. 

J:I have since looked at what other commentaries say about the term. One of
the problems is knowing what the two parts refer to. I think what B.Bodhi
states agrees with  DA.T ii 154-5:

dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ti aruupajjhaanena vikkhambhanavimokkhena,
maggena samucchedavimokkhenaa ti dviihi vimuccanabhaagehi,
aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato, maggena naamakaayato ti dviihi
vimuccitabbabhaagehi ca vimutto.

dviihi bhaagehi vimutto: freed by the two parts of freedom thus: by the
deliverance of suppression with the immaterial jhaana, by the deliverance of
cutting off with the path; and (freed) from the two parts to be freed thus:
from the material body with the attainment of the formless, from the mental
body with the path. (my rough translation)

N: this is clear, but just a gram.question: vimuccitabba : he ought to or
should be freed, correct? You mentioned that you would say something about
this -abba form, that would be interesting. But of course, there is no
hurry.  

J: An interesting comment on 'vimutto':

vimutto ti kilesehi vimutto vimuccanto ca; kilesaana.m
vikkhambhanasamucchedehi kayadvayato vimutto ti ayamettha attho.

Notice 'vimuccanto' -- your 'being freed'!

N: vimucca, passive form. I met it in DII, 9 (p. 148): about the royal
splendour of the king who is (being?) honoured (mahati): Mahaccaati pi
Paa.li, mahatiyaati attho.<< He was honoured>, is the meaning> .Is this
example correct? 

J:I don't want to get into the Puggalapa~n~natti commentaries as they'll
just
make an already complicated subject all the more complicated but I quote the
following from the PP. muula.tikaa which briefly sets out the three
interpretations for comparison:

pa.thamattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ubhatobhaagavimutto,
dutiyattheravaade ubhato bhaagato vimutto ti ubhatobhaagavimutto ti,
tatiyattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi dve vaare vimutto ti ayam etesa.m viseso.

N: dve vare: is this accusative: as to the two occasions? Now I find it
difficult to know the subtle differences between what the three theras
state, but as you say, it may become too complicated. I shall just look at
the grammar, the: dve vare.

Thank you very much for all the remarks and corrections. I just only started
to look at the netti texts. The sutta reference I cannot find,
baahitikasutta, where is it?
What would you like us to do, it is quite long, but we could try little by
little, or do you have something else in mind? Should I not rather start
with an easier text, but of course, nothing is easy. It would not hurt to
start this one, but not too much at a time. I really follow your advice to
us.  
I printed it out and then took it off the computer, because I did not know
beforehand that I might do something with it. If you advise us to translate
parts (or each of us one part?) I would need it on the computer again. In
that case, could you please send it to me again if it is not too time
consuming? Thank you very much. But it may be better to start with an easier
text. What do you think? Meanwhile I keep on reading DII Co, but sometimes I
get stuck with some words. Now it is all about the retenue of the king,
tesa.m pariyante... (Not translated by Ven. Bodhi).
Many thanks again, Nina.
 
113
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 10:12am
Subject: Fwd: Pali
--- In dhamma-list@y..., wynn <wewynal@t...> wrote:
Hi,

I found a great site. It contains the Dhammapada in Pali and English 
and it shows how it is translated, it teaches grammar and give the 
vocabulary for each word. It also give the commentary. And also 
sentence pronunciation and word pronunciation.

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/

Wynn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- End forwarded message ---
 
114
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 11:22pm
Subject: Re: Re: ubhato again
Dear Nina,

>dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ti aruupajjhaanena vikkhambhanavimokkhena,
>maggena samucchedavimokkhenaa ti dviihi vimuccanabhaagehi,
>aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato, maggena naamakaayato ti dviihi
>vimuccitabbabhaagehi ca vimutto.
>
>dviihi bhaagehi vimutto: freed by the two parts of freedom thus: by the
>deliverance of suppression with the immaterial jhaana, by the deliverance
of
>cutting off with the path; and (freed) from the two parts to be freed thus:
>from the material body with the attainment of the formless, from the mental
>body with the path. (my rough translation)
>
>N: this is clear, but just a gram.question: vimuccitabba : he ought to or
>should be freed, correct? You mentioned that you would say something about
>this -abba form, that would be interesting. But of course, there is no
>hurry.

The suffix is 'tabba' and belongs in the same group with 'aniiya' and 'ya'.
I will try to put together a list of special uses of this suffix in a future
post like I said I'd do for 'sevitabba'. I have to do some more study.

>J: An interesting comment on 'vimutto':
>
>vimutto ti kilesehi vimutto vimuccanto ca; kilesaana.m
>vikkhambhanasamucchedehi kayadvayato vimutto ti ayamettha attho.
>
>Notice 'vimuccanto' -- your 'being freed'!
>
>N: vimucca, passive form. I met it in DII, 9 (p. 148): about the royal
>splendour of the king who is (being?) honoured (mahati): Mahaccaati pi
>Paa.li, mahatiyaati attho.<< He was honoured>, is the meaning> .Is this
>example correct?

The passive form would have been 'mahiiyati' (see PED: mahati). What I'm
reading in 'mahaccaa ti pi paa.li, mahatiyaa ti attho.' (DA i 148) is that
'mahaccaa' is an alternative reading for 'mahaa ca'. 'mahatiyaa' is the
singular of the feminine adjective 'mahatii' in the oblique cases (here:
instrumental). The masculine form would be 'mahataa' (instr. of mahaa). The
two c's in mahaccaa is a result of sandhi: tiy (ty) > cc and so it is just a
variant of mahatiyaa. In 'mahaa ca raajaanubhaavena' the com. understands
'mahaa' in the sense of the instrumental. The com. also says that there is a
change or substitution of gender (lingavipallaasa) in the feminine
'mahaccaa' so it should be understood as if it were the masculine 'mahataa'
modifying 'raajaanubhavena'. I found this passage a fairly difficult one to
decipher.

>pa.thamattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ubhatobhaagavimutto,
>dutiyattheravaade ubhato bhaagato vimutto ti ubhatobhaagavimutto ti,
>tatiyattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi dve vaare vimutto ti ayam etesa.m viseso.
>
>N: dve vare: is this accusative: as to the two occasions? Now I find it
>difficult to know the subtle differences between what the three theras
>state, but as you say, it may become too complicated. I shall just look at
>the grammar, the: dve vare.

J: I agree that 'dve vaare' is in the accusative (second case) plural but
not as the direct object/patient of 'vimutto'. Perhaps the usage corresponds
to Warder's description on p.18: ... to express the pure duration of time or
casual point of time. I think this may relate to the rule at Saddaniiti 581:
kaaladdhaanam accantasa.myoge (time or length in full duration). eg. tayo
maase abhidhamma.m desesi (he taught abhidhamma for three months). The
anutika has 'dvikkhattu.m' (twice) as an interpretaion of 'dve vaare'. (PED
vaara: turn, occasion, time, opportunity).

>Thank you very much for all the remarks and corrections. I just only
started
>to look at the netti texts. The sutta reference I cannot find,
>baahitikasutta, where is it?

The sutta is MN no. 88. The page numbers are those of the printed Myanmoar
edition of MN. The sutta starts at M ii 112.

>What would you like us to do, it is quite long, but we could try little by
>little, or do you have something else in mind? Should I not rather start
>with an easier text, but of course, nothing is easy. It would not hurt to
>start this one, but not too much at a time. I really follow your advice to
>us.
>I printed it out and then took it off the computer, because I did not know
>beforehand that I might do something with it. If you advise us to translate
>parts (or each of us one part?) I would need it on the computer again. In
>that case, could you please send it to me again if it is not too time
>consuming? Thank you very much. But it may be better to start with an
easier
>text. What do you think? Meanwhile I keep on reading DII Co, but sometimes
I
>get stuck with some words. Now it is all about the retenue of the king,
>tesa.m pariyante... (Not translated by Ven. Bodhi).
>Many thanks again, Nina.

I posted the Netti commentarial passages mainly for others to look at and it
wasn't really intended as an assignment but it's open for translation if
you're interested. I started to translate a bit of it and will just try
finishing the short atthakatha passage before posting and perhaps continue
working on the other passages in small portions as time goes on. If you'd
like the passages back in your computer and want me to send you a copy
off-list just let me know. I will be reposting the Pali with the translation
so you could just wait instead. I can easily post a short paragraph-sized
sutta for a translation exercise anytime so I might do just that. The list
has an unpredictable nature so one never knows what will happen from day to
day. There is likely to be a lot of jumping around from topic to topic some
of it for beginners and some of it for the more advanced student. And there
should be lots of backtracking and going over the same topics repeatedly.
There's really nothing that anyone is required to do here. It's left up to
each member as to how much work or involvement he or she wants or has the
time for.

Best wishes,
Jim


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115
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:36pm
Subject: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Dear list-members,

I selected the following short simple sutta for anyone here who might like
to translate or analyse it:

pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.

cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame
cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)


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116
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 10, 2001 9:08pm
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Jim, 
Give you my answer later. I'm amazed to find that with no
dictionary or having to look up anything I know the meaning
(approximately). You picked one that suits my vocab. level
perfectly.
robertr
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear list-members,
> 
> I selected the following short simple sutta for anyone here
> who might like
> to translate or analyse it:
> 
> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> 
> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.
> katame
> cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso
> manasikaaro,
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
117
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 7:54am
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
--- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> > > 
> > pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> > 
> > cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> sa.mvattanti.
> > katame
> > cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso
> > manasikaaro,
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro
> dhammaa
> > pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)


___________
here goes:
Four things , bhikkhus lead to wsidom.
What 4?
The right person,  true dhamma (listening to?),  wise attention.
applying dhamma .
Those 4,  bhikkhus, lead to wisdom.

Ok so it was a bit harder than when I saw it this morning. I
think I'll order a dictionary.
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> 


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118
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:28pm
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.
op 11-06-2001 02:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...:
> 
> I selected the following short simple sutta for anyone here who might like
> to translate or analyse it:
> Yes, I like it, did on purpose not look at English text, no cheating.

> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.

>  Sutta about the Growth of pa~n~naa.

> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.
Four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
>katame
> cattaaro? 
Which four?

sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.

association with the noble person, hearing of the true dhamma, wise
attention and practice in accordance with the dhamma.

ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)

These four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.


Thank you very much, Jim. I did not translate dhammas. It could be factors,
but that word is too weak. sappuriso: sap in this word must have a special
meaning. Difficult word to translate, I followed my dictionary.
Saddhamma:true dhamma: there is more to it. Many interpretations: sant can
become sat (Warder): existing, what exists,true.Also: the good dhamma. In
Thailand it is interpreted as dhamma of the peaceful, those who have
attained enlightenment. Dhamma of the noble ones. A difficult word, I am
interested in what you think.In the end it is not too different: good, noble
peaceful.  
Pa.tipatti: Jon and I discussed in Cambodia the Thai translation of this:
pa.ti: in particular or one by one (in Thai: chepo) and patti: to reach (in
Thai:
 thyng). Most interesting, what is Kom thinking?.
Grammar: I would think dhamme, why is pl dhammaa? I must be wrong, no good
at plurals.
Thank you for the other corrections. I saw now that fem. of mahanto is
mahanti or mahatii, thus it means great, nothing to do with honour.
Nina. 
 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
 
119
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 2:44pm
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear list-members,
> 
> I selected the following short simple sutta for anyone here who 
might like
> to translate or analyse it:
> 
> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> 
> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame
> cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)


Dear Jim,

I think I understand the sutta's meaning because I have seen the 
translation, at least in Thai, and recognize most of the Pali terms, 
although I wouldn't know how to explain the grammar or structure.  For 
example I can guess that 'cattaaro' has to do with the number 4, but 
what is 'cattaaro'me'?  Does the 'me' part here have anything to do 
with the 'katame' in the question?  Or the 'ime kho' in the next 
sentence?  

It's a beautiful sutta by the way, and really wonderful to see it in 
the Pali,

Thank you,

Amara


My guess:
> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
The development of panna 

> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame
Four dhamma develop panna of the bhikkhu who observe them.  What 

> cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
four?  To associate with the sappurisa, to listen to the saddhamma, 
wise consideration/analysis,

> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
practice(/reach particularly) the dhamma according to the dhamma.  
These four dhamma 

> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
develop the panna of the bhikkhu who observe them.


Most of it is just according to the Thai version if I remember it 
correctly!  So this might be a bit unfair!

Amara
 
120
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 9:20pm
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Dear Robert,

Nice try! You left out a few words but you've captured the drift of it. See
below and more later when I respond to Nina's translation.

>> > pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
>> >
>> > cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
>> sa.mvattanti.
>> > katame
>> > cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso
>> > manasikaaro,
>> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro
>> dhammaa
>> > pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
>
>
>___________
>here goes:
>Four things , bhikkhus lead to wsidom.

I think one can easily miss the 'ime' in cattaaro'me with elision of the 'i'
after the 'o'. Many texts don't even show the apostrophe -- just
'cattaarome'. The translation of 'ime' (nominative masc. plural of 'aya.m')
is 'these'. Hence 'these four things'. 'vuddhi' (growth, increase) was also
untranslated.

>What 4?
>The right person,  true dhamma (listening to?),  wise attention.
>applying dhamma .

'the right person' should have 'attending to, serving, or associating with'
before it as a translation of 'sa.msevo' and 'listening to true dhamma' is
fine. 'dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti' is one I'm not too clear on but will study
it up in the commentaries. 'dhamma' at the beginning of the compound refers
to the nine lokuttara dhammas but I'm not quite sure what the 'anudhamma'
refers to (maybe practices like the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas).

>Those 4,  bhikkhus, lead to wisdom.
>
>Ok so it was a bit harder than when I saw it this morning. I
>think I'll order a dictionary.

The only major errors were words left out, but all in all not bad. I thought
you had a dictionary.

Best wishes,
Jim


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121
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:53pm
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.
Thanks for the opportunity.  I'm working on it, and
resolutely refraining from cheating, not even looking
at the other members' efforts.  It's my first attempt
at translation, hope to have a draft for you soon.

mn

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122
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 0:37am
Subject: Hi! Mike,
Just to say hi and welcome!

Amara
 
123
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 3:50am
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Jim,

just to say this is v.helpful and as Rob said (I think) a good sutta to choose
for the exercise....

it's also good to look briefly at yr translation work w/Nina even if I'm too
busy for now to fully appreciate it all.

With thanks,

Sarah

mike- good to see you around these days!

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
> Nice try! You left out a few words but you've captured the drift of it. See
> below and more later when I respond to Nina's translation.
> 
> >> > pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> >> >
> >> > cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> >> sa.mvattanti.
> >> > katame
> >> > cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso
> >> > manasikaaro,
> >> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro
> >> dhammaa
> >> > pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
> >
> >
> >___________
> >here goes:
> >Four things , bhikkhus lead to wsidom.
> 
> I think one can easily miss the 'ime' in cattaaro'me with elision of the 'i'
> after the 'o'. Many texts don't even show the apostrophe -- just
> 'cattaarome'. The translation of 'ime' (nominative masc. plural of 'aya.m')
> is 'these'. Hence 'these four things'. 'vuddhi' (growth, increase) was also
> untranslated.
> 
> >What 4?
> >The right person,  true dhamma (listening to?),  wise attention.
> >applying dhamma .
> 
> 'the right person' should have 'attending to, serving, or associating with'
> before it as a translation of 'sa.msevo' and 'listening to true dhamma' is
> fine. 'dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti' is one I'm not too clear on but will study
> it up in the commentaries. 'dhamma' at the beginning of the compound refers
> to the nine lokuttara dhammas but I'm not quite sure what the 'anudhamma'
> refers to (maybe practices like the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas).
> 
> >Those 4,  bhikkhus, lead to wisdom.
> >
> >Ok so it was a bit harder than when I saw it this morning. I
> >think I'll order a dictionary.
> 
> The only major errors were words left out, but all in all not bad. I thought
> you had a dictionary.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>

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124
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 9:30am
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.
Dear Nina,

>> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
>
>>  Sutta about the Growth of pa~n~naa.
>
>> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.
>Four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
>>katame cattaaro?
>Which four?
>
>sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
>> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
>
>association with the noble person, hearing of the true dhamma, wise
>attention and practice in accordance with the dhamma.
>
>ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
>> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
>
>These four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.

Your translation is okay but there are three words you left untranslated:
ime (in cattaaro'me), -dhamma- (in anudhamma), and kho. 'noble person' could
be in the plural. There is no commentary on this sutta so one has to look
elsewhere. I haven't found anything yet in the AN com. explaining each of
the 4 dhammas together but found a clear explanation in the commentary to
the Patisambhidamagga which I think serves our purpose. The following
explains two of these dhammas:

sappurisasa.mseve ti sobhanaana.m purisaaana.m sammaa sevane.

This shows the plural ie. noble persons. In the Skt. dict. virtuous is given
as one of the meanings of 'sobha.na'. 'sammaa' is the meaning of the 'sa.m'
prefixing 'seva' -- so 'right association with' is a possibility.

dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa ti ettha navalokuttaradhamme anugato
dhammo dhammaanudhammo. siilasamaadhipa~n~naasa"nkhaatassa
dhammaanudhammassa pa.tipatti pa.tipajjana.m dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.

I won't translate all of this but the general meaning is: the practice of
dhamma <called siila, samaadhi, & pa~n~naa> relating?? to the <nine
supramundane> dhammas. In the CPD the meanings of 'anugata' are given as:
"following, come into (acc,), conformable to, relating to". 'anugato' is the
meaning given for the prefix 'anu' before 'dhamma'. In an AN com. I also
came across anuruupa and anuloma as meanings for the anu before dhamma.

>Thank you very much, Jim. I did not translate dhammas. It could be factors,
>but that word is too weak.

'dhamma' is a word with many meanings. A while ago I had listed together all
the different meanings I could find and came up with 23 of them! Going over
them I think 'hetu or paccaya' (cause, condition) fits the best: 'these four
conditions (or conditioning things) lead to the growth/increase of wisdom'.
For 'sa.mvattanti' I'm not all that sure if 'lead to' is the right meaning
although it's commonly translated that way. I tried looking for a few
commentarial glosses on this verb and so far I have found only 'bhavati' &
'vattati, pavattati'. I seem to see only this verb used with a dative of
purpose suffix (often aaya) and the feminine 'iyaa' of vuddhiyaa is most
likely used in the same way.

>sappuriso: sap in this word must have a special
>meaning. Difficult word to translate, I followed my dictionary.
>Saddhamma:true dhamma: there is more to it. Many interpretations: sant can
>become sat (Warder): existing, what exists,true.Also: the good dhamma. In
>Thailand it is interpreted as dhamma of the peaceful, those who have
>attained enlightenment. Dhamma of the noble ones. A difficult word, I am
>interested in what you think.In the end it is not too different: good,
>noble, peaceful.

I started to investigate the meanings of 'sap-' and 'sad-'. In the same
location of the Pa.tis com. above I found for saddhamma: sata.m dhammo,
sobhano vaa dhammo (p. 542). Until you mentioned 'peaceful' I had never
come across this interpretation before. 'santa' has several homonyms and
'sata.m' can be a plural gen. I haven't found a clear present participle
entered for the root 'sam' (to be quiet) so I'm not sure if 'sata.m' is the
right form for its pl. gen. but it does seem a plausible one and 'sata.m
dhammo' could very well have the meaning of  'the dhamma of the peaceful
ones'. 'good' is likely a translation of 'sobhana' although I haven't yet
found the connection to 'santa' other than in dictionaries.

>Pa.tipatti: Jon and I discussed in Cambodia the Thai translation of this:
>pa.ti: in particular or one by one (in Thai: chepo) and patti: to reach (in
>Thai: thyng). Most interesting, what is Kom thinking?.

I think you might be reading 'patti' as the one derived from the root 'aap'
(reach): pa + aap + ti > patti. The 'patti' of pa.tipatti is derived from
the root 'pad' (go): pad + ti > patti. I'm keeping on the lookout for the
Pali meaning of 'pa.ti' used with 'patti' and also how pa.tipatti and
pa.tipadaa differ in meaning.

>Grammar: I would think dhamme, why is pl dhammaa? I must be wrong, no good
>at plurals.

dhamme could be for the loc. sing. or acc. pl. The nom. pl. is dhammaa.
However, in the case of pronouns like ima (mf sing. aya.m) and katama the
nom. and acc. pl. in the masc. is ime and katame with the -e ending.

This sutta might look simple on the surface yet on closer inspection it can
easily turn into something quite deep, complex, and that which can involve a
great deal of study. The four dhammas are similar to those of the 4 factors
of stream-entry (sotaapattiyangaani). In the Pa.tis com. p.641 it shows how
the four dhammas relate to each other. One thing that sure stands out is
just how limited translations are which may only be able at best to convey
just one aspect of an important Pali word having many meanings.

Best wishes,
Jim


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125
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:13am
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.
excellent jim. This is the way translators should write -
showing us the different ways and possibilities in footnotes and
endnotes.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
> 
> >> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> >
> >>  Sutta about the Growth of pa~n~naa.
> >
> >> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> sa.mvattanti.
> >Four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> >>katame cattaaro?
> >Which four?
> >
> >sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
> >> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> >
> >association with the noble person, hearing of the true
> dhamma, wise
> >attention and practice in accordance with the dhamma.
> >
> >ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> >> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
> >
> >These four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> 
> Your translation is okay but there are three words you left
> untranslated:
> ime (in cattaaro'me), -dhamma- (in anudhamma), and kho. 'noble
> person' could
> be in the plural. There is no commentary on this sutta so one
> has to look
> elsewhere. I haven't found anything yet in the AN com.
> explaining each of
> the 4 dhammas together but found a clear explanation in the
> commentary to
> the Patisambhidamagga which I think serves our purpose. The
> following
> explains two of these dhammas:
> 
> sappurisasa.mseve ti sobhanaana.m purisaaana.m sammaa sevane.
> 
> This shows the plural ie. noble persons. In the Skt. dict.
> virtuous is given
> as one of the meanings of 'sobha.na'. 'sammaa' is the meaning
> of the 'sa.m'
> prefixing 'seva' -- so 'right association with' is a
> possibility.
> 
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa ti ettha navalokuttaradhamme
> anugato
> dhammo dhammaanudhammo. siilasamaadhipa~n~naasa"nkhaatassa
> dhammaanudhammassa pa.tipatti pa.tipajjana.m
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> 
> I won't translate all of this but the general meaning is: the
> practice of
> dhamma <called siila, samaadhi, & pa~n~naa> relating?? to the
> <nine
> supramundane> dhammas. In the CPD the meanings of 'anugata'
> are given as:
> "following, come into (acc,), conformable to, relating to".
> 'anugato' is the
> meaning given for the prefix 'anu' before 'dhamma'. In an AN
> com. I also
> came across anuruupa and anuloma as meanings for the anu
> before dhamma.
> 
> >Thank you very much, Jim. I did not translate dhammas. It
> could be factors,
> >but that word is too weak.
> 
> 'dhamma' is a word with many meanings. A while ago I had
> listed together all
> the different meanings I could find and came up with 23 of
> them! Going over
> them I think 'hetu or paccaya' (cause, condition) fits the
> best: 'these four
> conditions (or conditioning things) lead to the
> growth/increase of wisdom'.
> For 'sa.mvattanti' I'm not all that sure if 'lead to' is the
> right meaning
> although it's commonly translated that way. I tried looking
> for a few
> commentarial glosses on this verb and so far I have found only
> 'bhavati' &
> 'vattati, pavattati'. I seem to see only this verb used with a
> dative of
> purpose suffix (often aaya) and the feminine 'iyaa' of
> vuddhiyaa is most
> likely used in the same way.
> 
> >sappuriso: sap in this word must have a special
> >meaning. Difficult word to translate, I followed my
> dictionary.
> >Saddhamma:true dhamma: there is more to it. Many
> interpretations: sant can
> >become sat (Warder): existing, what exists,true.Also: the
> good dhamma. In
> >Thailand it is interpreted as dhamma of the peaceful, those
> who have
> >attained enlightenment. Dhamma of the noble ones. A difficult
> word, I am
> >interested in what you think.In the end it is not too
> different: good,
> >noble, peaceful.
> 
> I started to investigate the meanings of 'sap-' and 'sad-'. In
> the same
> location of the Pa.tis com. above I found for saddhamma:
> sata.m dhammo,
> sobhano vaa dhammo (p. 542). Until you mentioned 'peaceful' I
> had never
> come across this interpretation before. 'santa' has several
> homonyms and
> 'sata.m' can be a plural gen. I haven't found a clear present
> participle
> entered for the root 'sam' (to be quiet) so I'm not sure if
> 'sata.m' is the
> right form for its pl. gen. but it does seem a plausible one
> and 'sata.m
> dhammo' could very well have the meaning of  'the dhamma of
> the peaceful
> ones'. 'good' is likely a translation of 'sobhana' although I
> haven't yet
> found the connection to 'santa' other than in dictionaries.
> 
> >Pa.tipatti: Jon and I discussed in Cambodia the Thai
> translation of this:
> >pa.ti: in particular or one by one (in Thai: chepo) and
> patti: to reach (in
> >Thai: thyng). Most interesting, what is Kom thinking?.
> 
> I think you might be reading 'patti' as the one derived from
> the root 'aap'
> (reach): pa + aap + ti > patti. The 'patti' of pa.tipatti is
> derived from
> the root 'pad' (go): pad + ti > patti. I'm keeping on the
> lookout for the
> Pali meaning of 'pa.ti' used with 'patti' and also how
> pa.tipatti and
> pa.tipadaa differ in meaning.
> 
> >Grammar: I would think dhamme, why is pl dhammaa? I must be
> wrong, no good
> >at plurals.
> 
> dhamme could be for the loc. sing. or acc. pl. The nom. pl. is
> dhammaa.
> However, in the case of pronouns like ima (mf sing. aya.m) and
> katama the
> nom. and acc. pl. in the masc. is ime and katame with the -e
> ending.
> 
> This sutta might look simple on the surface yet on closer
> inspection it can
> easily turn into something quite deep, complex, and that which
> can involve a
> great deal of study. The four dhammas are similar to those of
> the 4 factors
> of stream-entry (sotaapattiyangaani). In the Pa.tis com. p.641
> it shows how
> the four dhammas relate to each other. One thing that sure
> stands out is
> just how limited translations are which may only be able at
> best to convey
> just one aspect of an important Pali word having many
> meanings.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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126
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 10:40am
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.
Dear Rob,

Don't worry about it, you can do the same next time, we can all learn 
from Jim,

Amara

--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> excellent jim. This is the way translators should write -
> showing us the different ways and possibilities in footnotes and
> endnotes.
> robert
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Nina,
> > 
> > >> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> > >
> > >>  Sutta about the Growth of pa~n~naa.
> > >
> > >> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> > sa.mvattanti.
> > >Four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> > >>katame cattaaro?
> > >Which four?
> > >
> > >sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
> > >> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> > >
> > >association with the noble person, hearing of the true
> > dhamma, wise
> > >attention and practice in accordance with the dhamma.
> > >
> > >ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> > >> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
> > >
> > >These four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> > 
> > Your translation is okay but there are three words you left
> > untranslated:
> > ime (in cattaaro'me), -dhamma- (in anudhamma), and kho. 'noble
> > person' could
> > be in the plural. There is no commentary on this sutta so one
> > has to look
> > elsewhere. I haven't found anything yet in the AN com.
> > explaining each of
> > the 4 dhammas together but found a clear explanation in the
> > commentary to
> > the Patisambhidamagga which I think serves our purpose. The
> > following
> > explains two of these dhammas:
> > 
> > sappurisasa.mseve ti sobhanaana.m purisaaana.m sammaa sevane.
> > 
> > This shows the plural ie. noble persons. In the Skt. dict.
> > virtuous is given
> > as one of the meanings of 'sobha.na'. 'sammaa' is the meaning
> > of the 'sa.m'
> > prefixing 'seva' -- so 'right association with' is a
> > possibility.
> > 
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa ti ettha navalokuttaradhamme
> > anugato
> > dhammo dhammaanudhammo. siilasamaadhipa~n~naasa"nkhaatassa
> > dhammaanudhammassa pa.tipatti pa.tipajjana.m
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> > 
> > I won't translate all of this but the general meaning is: the
> > practice of
> > dhamma <called siila, samaadhi, & pa~n~naa> relating?? to the
> > <nine
> > supramundane> dhammas. In the CPD the meanings of 'anugata'
> > are given as:
> > "following, come into (acc,), conformable to, relating to".
> > 'anugato' is the
> > meaning given for the prefix 'anu' before 'dhamma'. In an AN
> > com. I also
> > came across anuruupa and anuloma as meanings for the anu
> > before dhamma.
> > 
> > >Thank you very much, Jim. I did not translate dhammas. It
> > could be factors,
> > >but that word is too weak.
> > 
> > 'dhamma' is a word with many meanings. A while ago I had
> > listed together all
> > the different meanings I could find and came up with 23 of
> > them! Going over
> > them I think 'hetu or paccaya' (cause, condition) fits the
> > best: 'these four
> > conditions (or conditioning things) lead to the
> > growth/increase of wisdom'.
> > For 'sa.mvattanti' I'm not all that sure if 'lead to' is the
> > right meaning
> > although it's commonly translated that way. I tried looking
> > for a few
> > commentarial glosses on this verb and so far I have found only
> > 'bhavati' &
> > 'vattati, pavattati'. I seem to see only this verb used with a
> > dative of
> > purpose suffix (often aaya) and the feminine 'iyaa' of
> > vuddhiyaa is most
> > likely used in the same way.
> > 
> > >sappuriso: sap in this word must have a special
> > >meaning. Difficult word to translate, I followed my
> > dictionary.
> > >Saddhamma:true dhamma: there is more to it. Many
> > interpretations: sant can
> > >become sat (Warder): existing, what exists,true.Also: the
> > good dhamma. In
> > >Thailand it is interpreted as dhamma of the peaceful, those
> > who have
> > >attained enlightenment. Dhamma of the noble ones. A difficult
> > word, I am
> > >interested in what you think.In the end it is not too
> > different: good,
> > >noble, peaceful.
> > 
> > I started to investigate the meanings of 'sap-' and 'sad-'. In
> > the same
> > location of the Pa.tis com. above I found for saddhamma:
> > sata.m dhammo,
> > sobhano vaa dhammo (p. 542). Until you mentioned 'peaceful' I
> > had never
> > come across this interpretation before. 'santa' has several
> > homonyms and
> > 'sata.m' can be a plural gen. I haven't found a clear present
> > participle
> > entered for the root 'sam' (to be quiet) so I'm not sure if
> > 'sata.m' is the
> > right form for its pl. gen. but it does seem a plausible one
> > and 'sata.m
> > dhammo' could very well have the meaning of  'the dhamma of
> > the peaceful
> > ones'. 'good' is likely a translation of 'sobhana' although I
> > haven't yet
> > found the connection to 'santa' other than in dictionaries.
> > 
> > >Pa.tipatti: Jon and I discussed in Cambodia the Thai
> > translation of this:
> > >pa.ti: in particular or one by one (in Thai: chepo) and
> > patti: to reach (in
> > >Thai: thyng). Most interesting, what is Kom thinking?.
> > 
> > I think you might be reading 'patti' as the one derived from
> > the root 'aap'
> > (reach): pa + aap + ti > patti. The 'patti' of pa.tipatti is
> > derived from
> > the root 'pad' (go): pad + ti > patti. I'm keeping on the
> > lookout for the
> > Pali meaning of 'pa.ti' used with 'patti' and also how
> > pa.tipatti and
> > pa.tipadaa differ in meaning.
> > 
> > >Grammar: I would think dhamme, why is pl dhammaa? I must be
> > wrong, no good
> > >at plurals.
> > 
> > dhamme could be for the loc. sing. or acc. pl. The nom. pl. is
> > dhammaa.
> > However, in the case of pronouns like ima (mf sing. aya.m) and
> > katama the
> > nom. and acc. pl. in the masc. is ime and katame with the -e
> > ending.
> > 
> > This sutta might look simple on the surface yet on closer
> > inspection it can
> > easily turn into something quite deep, complex, and that which
> > can involve a
> > great deal of study. The four dhammas are similar to those of
> > the 4 factors
> > of stream-entry (sotaapattiyangaani). In the Pa.tis com. p.641
> > it shows how
> > the four dhammas relate to each other. One thing that sure
> > stands out is
> > just how limited translations are which may only be able at
> > best to convey
> > just one aspect of an important Pali word having many
> > meanings.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
> a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
127
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:12pm
Subject: corrections
Thank you Jim, for the most interesting corrections and remarks which I
shall carefully study. I also want to translate as an exercise the Netti
text and Commentary Robert sent me again. The text is worthwhile to study.It
is coming. The tika is very difficult. Nina.
 
128
From: Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@ksc.th.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 0:57am
Subject: Joining in.
Dear Jim,
Thanks for inviting me to the group.
Hope associating with this list will motivate me to study Pali,
knowing it to be the language best suited to the study of buddhadhamma.

With metta,

Sukin.
 
129
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:04am
Subject: Re: Joining in.
Dear Sukin and Mike,
Welcome to the group. Jim is a wonderful teacher and so
encouraging. I am feeling much more confident that I can
gradually learn pali since joining this group and will shortly
order dictionaries from the PTS.
robert
--- Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@k...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> Thanks for inviting me to the group.
> Hope associating with this list will motivate me to study
> Pali,
> knowing it to be the language best suited to the study of
> buddhadhamma.
> 
> With metta,
> 
> Sukin.
> 
> 


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Che

130
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 10:14am
Subject: Re: paaavuddhisutta.m.
As you all probably know by now, we have two more new members: Mike
who joined us on Monday and Sukin just yesterday (Welcome to the group,
Sukin!). Our membership is now up to 12. I have included, below, Mike's
translation of the AN sutta which he originally sent to me and asked me to
forward it to the list with my reply.

Dear Mike,

Welcome to psg!

>Here's a draft--I made a few guesses and was free with
>idioms (based mainly on familiarity with other
>translations).
>
>Discourse on Increase of Wisdom
>
>Four things, monks, lead to increase of wisdom.  Which
>four?
>Associating with a good man, hearing the true
>doctrine, attending wisely, practicing dhamma in
>conformity with the Law(?).
>Surely, monks, these four things lead to increase of
>wisdom.

You're on the right track! Can't find much wrong  with your translation. I'd
put 'these' in front of 'Four things,...'. I'm  impressed with your
'practicing dhamma in conformity with the Law' which is the best I've seen
so far.

Mike then asks:

> p.s.  What particle makes it 'these'?

J: The only particles (nipaata) in the sutta are: kho (indeed, surely) & iti
(end quote). The pronoun 'these' is found immediately after the first
'cattaaro' in: cattaaro'me. ime is the nom. masc. plural of the pronominal
stem 'ima': ime has its i elided which is indicated by the apostrophe. PTS
texts often mark an elision but most other editions don't and you'd only
see: cattaarome. The word order 'four these' is definitely unenglish but
perhaps the 'cattaaro' is placed first to emphasize the 'four'. Woodward
translates the first line as: "Monks, these four states conduce to growth in
wisdom." -- GS ii 250. Incidentally, Woodward includes the next sutta in
with this sutta where both should be kept apart as two distinct suttas. The
fault is in Morris's Pali edition where the two suttas are mistakenly
numbered together as a single one. The second sutta is called bahukaarasutta
and differs from the previous one only in the wording 'manussabhuutassa
bahukaaraa honti' (are of great service to one who has become human --tr.
Woodward, p.251) instead of 'pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti'.

Best wishes,
Jim

>--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
>
>Dear list-members,
>
>I selected the following short simple sutta for anyone
>here who might like
>to translate or analyse it:
>
>pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
>
>cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
>sa.mvattanti. katame
>cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso
>manasikaaro,
>dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro
>dhammaa
>pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)




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131
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:37am
Subject: Re: paaavuddhisutta.m. : cheating :) and question
Hi Jim and everybody, 

Welcome to Mike and K.Sukin.

This is a confession :)  I cheated in doing a translation :)    When I first 
looked at the sutta, my first reaction was discouraged.  I did a search on 
PTS dictionary online and not a word come out.  Then I took a look at Nina's 
and Robert's translation as well as Jim's comments.  I relooked at the sutta 
again, and found out that I somewhat know about half of the stem of words.  
In Thai, we adopted a lot of words from Pali, but at time the meaning changed 
quite dramatically.

I then opened my dicts, Pali-Eng, Pali-Thai and Thai-Thai.  At this point I 
think I am not capable of making a good translation. But, I have learned that 
if I am afraid of making a mistake, I will not be able to learn a new 
langauge.

This are some vocabularies I looked up and also some questions as well,

Vuddhi : growth, nourishment.   What is vuddhiyaa, and why -aa was put there?

Catu : 4, we somewhat use catu in Thai.  cattaaro'me, I couldn't find "ime" 
in my dicts. as well as the online dict.  I guess that a a conjugation of 
catu+ime.
bhikkhave : I don't know the -ave suffix, why it's there and what does it 
mean.

Sa.mvattanti : in Thai vattana means progress, sa.m, su-, satta, sap- mean 
good, right, beautiful and more. So sappurisa equals to sattapurisa. 
Saddhamma means dhamma of a good person

Seva : to associate with, sappurisasa.msevo : to to associate with a good 
person.  Sorry Jim, from your comment to Nina, how do you make purisa in to 
plural

Savana : listen

Pati : react, against, return.   Patti( from my Pali-Thai dict.)  means to 
regress or fall. In Thai Patipatti means to do or to practice.


I think, I should read more before I ask. But let me ask you my last 
question.  How does the sentence structure work in Pali

<<<<cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.>Four 
dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.>>>>

Look like adj. and then noun. I am confusing with the sequences of words in 
Pali sentence, why verb (sa.mvattanti) is at the end?  In Thai we say "a boy 
good", instead of "a good boy" as in English.  In French it's even more 
confusing to me.
    


Well, the bottom-line is I need to study more.

Thanks for your time, your attention and your patience.

Your bad student,

Num


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
132
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:46pm
Subject: Re: Joining in.
--- In palistudy@y..., Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@k...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> Thanks for inviting me to the group.
> Hope associating with this list will motivate me to study Pali,
> knowing it to be the language best suited to the study of 
buddhadhamma.
> 
> With metta,
> 
> Sukin.


Dear Sukin,

Glad to see you here! 

Welcome,

Amara
 
133
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Joining in.
Dear All,

It's a real pleasure (and an honor) to be here.  I
frankly find the level of scholarship daunting, to say
the least--I'm NO scholar.  I was afraid my attempts
would be out of place here (because so superficial),
but Jim's response to my first attempt was most
encouraging.  Thanks to you all for tolerating a rank
beginner...

mike  
--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:

> Dear Sukin and Mike,
> Welcome to the group. Jim is a wonderful teacher and
> so
> encouraging. I am feeling much more confident that I
> can
> gradually learn pali since joining this group and
> will shortly
> order dictionaries from the PTS.
> robert
> --- Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@k...> wrote:
> > Dear Jim,
> > Thanks for inviting me to the group.
> > Hope associating with this list will motivate me
> to study
> > Pali,
> > knowing it to be the language best suited to the
> study of
> > buddhadhamma.
> > 
> > With metta,
> > 
> > Sukin.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
> http://buzz.yahoo.com/
> 


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134
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:02pm
Subject: Re: Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Jim,

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:

> Mike then asks:
> 
> p.s.  What particle makes it 'these'?
> 
> J: The only particles (nipaata) in the sutta are:
> kho (indeed, surely) & iti
> (end quote). The pronoun 'these' is found
> immediately after the first
> 'cattaaro' in: cattaaro'me. ime is the nom. masc.
> plural of the pronominal
> stem 'ima': ime has its i elided which is indicated
> by the apostrophe. PTS
> texts often mark an elision but most other editions
> don't and you'd only
> see: cattaarome. 

Thanks--I remember now I didn't know what to do with
the ''me'.  Is there a book where I might have been
able to look this up in an index of some kind?

Thanks again...

mike

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135
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 7:22pm
Subject: Re: Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Mike,

>Thanks--I remember now I didn't know what to do with
>the ''me'.  Is there a book where I might have been
>able to look this up in an index of some kind?

I'm not sure if I've understood you. I doubt you will find 'me listed in an
index. But for 'ime' you'd find it in a declension table. Warder's doesnt't
seem to give a complete table (at least not on p. 115). You will find some
of the forms in PED s.v. aya.m and also look in Duroiselle's sect. 305. The
most complete paradigm is probably the following from the Saddaniti (12th
pariccheda):

idaani ida.msaddassa naamikapadamaalaa vuccate:

1. aya.m : ime
2. ima.m : ime
3. anena iminaa : ehi ebhi imehi imebhi
4. assa imassa : esa.m esaana.m imesa.m imesaana.m
5. asmaa imasmaa imamhaa : ehi ebhi imehi imebhi
6. assa imassa : esa.m esaana.m imesa.m imesaana.m
7. asmi.m imasmi.m amhi imamhi : esu imesu. ida.m pulli"nga.m.

This one is for the masculine gender. The order is nominative, accusative,
instrumental, dative, ablative, genitive, locative. The symbol : separates
the singular from the plural forms.

The pronoun 'ima' (stem form) is included in a special group of 27 words
called sabbanaama-s. Katama and catu also belong to the same group.

Best wishes,
Jim


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136
From: Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@ksc.th.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 6:11am
Subject: Re: Re: paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Jim and all,
Thanks a lot for the welcome.
Judging from my accumulations I do not fit so well in here, since I
have never been a studious person.
But life is short, and at any time death might make a visit.
Buddhadhamma is important, Pali is important too.
I have the 'Introduction to Pali' by Warder, ant the PTS pali/english
dict. And so if anyone can please suggest me any other books that
would help me with the study I'd appreciate greatly.
Thanks in advance,
Sukin.

Jim Anderson wrote:

> As you all probably know by now, we have two more new members: Mike
> who joined us on Monday and Sukin just yesterday (Welcome to the group,
> Sukin!). Our membership is now up to 12. I have included, below, Mike's
> translation of the AN sutta which he originally sent to me and asked me to
> forward it to the list with my reply.
>
> Dear Mike,
>
> Welcome to psg!
>
> >Here's a draft--I made a few guesses and was free with
> >idioms (based mainly on familiarity with other
> >translations).
> >
> >Discourse on Increase of Wisdom
> >
> >Four things, monks, lead to increase of wisdom.  Which
> >four?
> >Associating with a good man, hearing the true
> >doctrine, attending wisely, practicing dhamma in
> >conformity with the Law(?).
> >Surely, monks, these four things lead to increase of
> >wisdom.
>
> You're on the right track! Can't find much wrong  with your translation. I'd
> put 'these' in front of 'Four things,...'. I'm  impressed with your
> 'practicing dhamma in conformity with the Law' which is the best I've seen
> so far.
>
> Mike then asks:
>
> > p.s.  What particle makes it 'these'?
>
> J: The only particles (nipaata) in the sutta are: kho (indeed, surely) & iti
> (end quote). The pronoun 'these' is found immediately after the first
> 'cattaaro' in: cattaaro'me. ime is the nom. masc. plural of the pronominal
> stem 'ima': ime has its i elided which is indicated by the apostrophe. PTS
> texts often mark an elision but most other editions don't and you'd only
> see: cattaarome. The word order 'four these' is definitely unenglish but
> perhaps the 'cattaaro' is placed first to emphasize the 'four'. Woodward
> translates the first line as: "Monks, these four states conduce to growth in
> wisdom." -- GS ii 250. Incidentally, Woodward includes the next sutta in
> with this sutta where both should be kept apart as two distinct suttas. The
> fault is in Morris's Pali edition where the two suttas are mistakenly
> numbered together as a single one. The second sutta is called bahukaarasutta
> and differs from the previous one only in the wording 'manussabhuutassa
> bahukaaraa honti' (are of great service to one who has become human --tr.
> Woodward, p.251) instead of 'pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti'.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
> >--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> >
> >Dear list-members,
> >
> >I selected the following short simple sutta for anyone
> >here who might like
> >to translate or analyse it:
> >
> >pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> >
> >cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> >sa.mvattanti. katame
> >cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso
> >manasikaaro,
> >dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro
> >dhammaa
> >pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
>
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
137
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 8:06am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Jim,
I have a sad confession. One of the biggest problems I have is
with the English meta-language used to describe the grammar in
pali. In New Zealand we don't study latin and thus all the words
such as  nominative, accusative,
instrumental, dative, ablative, genitive, locative are  like a
foreign language in themselves( I understand verbs, modals nouns
etc).  I recently ordered a grammar book that explains some of
these terms but if you can recommend others I will order those.
It is the hardest thing I found with studying Warder.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> 
> >Thanks--I remember now I didn't know what to do with
> >the ''me'.  Is there a book where I might have been
> >able to look this up in an index of some kind?
> 
> I'm not sure if I've understood you. I doubt you will find 'me
> listed in an
> index. But for 'ime' you'd find it in a declension table.
> Warder's doesnt't
> seem to give a complete table (at least not on p. 115). You
> will find some
> of the forms in PED s.v. aya.m and also look in Duroiselle's
> sect. 305. The
> most complete paradigm is probably the following from the
> Saddaniti (12th
> pariccheda):
> 
> idaani ida.msaddassa naamikapadamaalaa vuccate:
> 
> 1. aya.m : ime
> 2. ima.m : ime
> 3. anena iminaa : ehi ebhi imehi imebhi
> 4. assa imassa : esa.m esaana.m imesa.m imesaana.m
> 5. asmaa imasmaa imamhaa : ehi ebhi imehi imebhi
> 6. assa imassa : esa.m esaana.m imesa.m imesaana.m
> 7. asmi.m imasmi.m amhi imamhi : esu imesu. ida.m pulli"nga.m.
> 
> This one is for the masculine gender. The The symbol
> : separates
> the singular from the plural forms.
> 
> The pronoun 'ima' (stem form) is included in a special group
> of 27 words
> called sabbanaama-s. Katama and catu also belong to the same
> group.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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138
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 0:32pm
Subject: Re: paaavuddhisutta.m. : cheating :) and question
Dear Num,

>This are some vocabularies I looked up and also some questions as well,
>
>Vuddhi : growth, nourishment.   What is vuddhiyaa, and why -aa was put
there?

vuddhiyaa is the inflected form of vuddhi for the singular cases: instr.
dat. abl. gen. loc. The -aa is part of -yaa which is affixed to feminine
words in -i, -ii, -u, -uu. Because it is the same ending in all five cases
it is often difficult to know what the actual case is. I take it that our
'vuddhiyaa' is in the dat. (see Warder p. 410 under sa.m-vatt).

>Catu : 4, we somewhat use catu in Thai.  cattaaro'me, I couldn't find "ime"
>in my dicts. as well as the online dict.  I guess that a a conjugation of
>catu+ime.

catu is the stem form. See my reply to Mike on finding "ime". cattaro'me are
two separate words: cattaaro ime and 'me is definitely not the inflectional
ending of cattaaro. You can check this by looking at the paradigms for catu
(see Warder p.153). I think your choice of the word 'conjugation' is
incorrect. Euphonic combination or sandhi would be more appropriate.

>bhikkhave : I don't know the -ave suffix, why it's there and what does it
>mean.

bhikkhave is a vocative plural form of bhikkhu. The suffix is ve and
the u is changed to a. Another pl. vocative form is bhikkhavo which is also
the form of the nom. and acc. pl. (see Warder p.134).

>Sa.mvattanti : in Thai vattana means progress, sa.m, su-, satta, sap- mean
>good, right, beautiful and more. So sappurisa equals to sattapurisa.
>Saddhamma means dhamma of a good person

Your 'satta' doesn't look familiar to me in this context. Don't you mean
'santa'?

>Seva : to associate with, sappurisasa.msevo : to to associate with a good
>person.  Sorry Jim, from your comment to Nina, how do you make purisa in to
>plural

In my post to Nina I gave the resolution of the compound as given in the
Pa.tis com. Do you remember 'sobhanaana.m purisaana.m sammaa sevane'?
purisaana.m is in the plural of the dative or genitive. That is why I made
it plural. However one could check through other commentaries for
resolutions of the same compound to see if any interprets a singular
(purisassa). Admittedly, without the commentary it is hard to ascertain
whether 'person' or 'persons' is meant.

>Savana : listen

listening, hearing
>Pati : react, against, return.   Patti( from my Pali-Thai dict.)  means to
>regress or fall. In Thai Patipatti means to do or to practice.

I don't see a verb 'patti' in PED but there is a 'patati' (he falls). You
also interpret 'pa.tipatti' as a verb but it's really a feminine noun. The
verb is 'pa.tipajjati'.

>I think, I should read more before I ask. But let me ask you my last
>question.  How does the sentence structure work in Pali
>
><<<<cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.>Four
>dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.>>>>

That seems like a hard question. To see how it works you should identify the
individual components. I can see 4 basic components:

1. a phrase expressing the subject: cattaaro'me dhammaa which contains three
words all having a masc. nom. pl. ending. dhammaa is the main word and
functions as an agent. It is modified by a numeral adj. (cattaaro) and a
pronominal adj. (ime).

2. a vocative plural: bhikkhave to whom the sutta is addressed.

3. a verb: sa.mvattanti which is in the present indicative active 3rd pers.
plural. You match up the -nti ending with the agent.

4. a compound with the dative ending because the verb requires it.

In summary: [agent] [vocative] [verb] [dative of purpose]

>Look like adj. and then noun. I am confusing with the sequences of words in
>Pali sentence, why verb (sa.mvattanti) is at the end?  In Thai we say "a
boy good", instead of "a good boy" as in English.  In French it's even more
>confusing to me.

Sometimes there is a verb at the beginning although not very often. The
example I'm thinking of is: assosi kho vera"njo braahma.no: "Indeed the
brahmin of Veranja heard:..."

>Well, the bottom-line is I need to study more.

Learning a language does require a lot of time and effort to study. I know
this has been the case for me. I started studying Pali 25 years ago and yet
I still feel like I have an awful lot more studying to do. There's seems to
be no end to it.

>Thanks for your time, your attention and your patience.

You're welcome.

>Your bad student,

You're not such a bad student! It is good to ask questions as we can all
learn something.

Best wishes and keep up your good work in learning Pali,

Jim



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139
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 15, 2001 9:16pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Dear Amara,

>I think I understand the sutta's meaning because I have seen the
>translation, at least in Thai, and recognize most of the Pali terms,
>although I wouldn't know how to explain the grammar or structure.  For
>example I can guess that 'cattaaro' has to do with the number 4, but
>what is 'cattaaro'me'?  Does the 'me' part here have anything to do
>with the 'katame' in the question?  Or the 'ime kho' in the next
>sentence?

I've already explained cattaaro'me so I won't say anymore here. katame and
ime belong to the same group called 'sabbanaama-s' which consist mostly of
pronouns. The 'me and the ime in the last sentence are both exactly the same
word and used in exactly the same way except for the word-order.

>My guess:
>> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
>The development of panna

I usually read 'development' as a translation of 'bhaavanaa'. In the Pa.tis
com. I found va.d.dhana as a synonym of bhaavanaa. Va.d.dhana, va.d.dhi, and
vuddhi all have similar meanings and that might support 'development' as a
translation of 'vuddhi' if we think of it this way.

>> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame
>Four dhamma develop panna of the bhikkhu who observe them.  What

'of the bhikkhu who observe them' is incorrect for "me bhikkhave". Also,
you've shifted 'develop' to the verb 'sa.mvattanti' which has a different
meaning. A more consistent translation would have been:" Bhikkhus, these
four dhammas lead to the development of pa~n~naa."

>> cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
>four?  To associate with the sappurisa, to listen to the saddhamma,
>wise consideration/analysis,
>
>> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
>practice(/reach particularly) the dhamma according to the dhamma.
>These four dhamma
>
>> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
>develop the panna of the bhikkhu who observe them.
>
>Most of it is just according to the Thai version if I remember it
>correctly!  So this might be a bit unfair!

Would you be interested in translating the Thai translation of this sutta
into English for us to compare? It can be found in nipaata 4, aapattivagga.

Best wishes,
Jim


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140
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 1:55am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Rob,

your post has been a condition for me to be declining Latin nouns in my head
for the first time in...well, a long time!

(Actually, if you looked at lesson 1 in a school Latin book, it might help or
online I'm sure).

Usually we decline nouns in this order (I think the same for Pali), singular
and then plural. So taking the example of 'monk' -

Nominative (nom.)= Subject as in: The monk visited the Buddha
Vocative (voc.)= When spoken to as in: Listen monk
Accusative (acc.)= Object as in : he saw the monk
Genitive (gen.)= of...as in: the monk's bowl
Dative (dat.)= to..as in: He made an offering to the monk
Ablative (abl.)= by, from..as in: The buddha sat by the monk

It might be interesting to decline 'Bhikkhu', but maybe later! Too many gaps
for me without some research.

Jim, for  'dhamma' in the passage, Nina was considering factors and I had
considered 'essential factors' or 'conditioning factors' and you mentioned
conditions as one translation. I rather like essential factors if you think
this might be acceptable.

just looking at some interesting meaninsg of dhamma on p.121 of Brahmajala
Sutta (Bodhi) for those that have it. V.interesting.

Sarah

Sukin, Hi and welcome! I'm another of the lazy, inept students here...no
comparisons necessary!!


--- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote: > Dear Jim,
> I have a sad confession. One of the biggest problems I have is
> with the English meta-language used to describe the grammar in
> pali. In New Zealand we don't study latin and thus all the words
> such as  nominative, accusative,
> instrumental, dative, ablative, genitive, locative are  like a
> foreign language in themselves( I understand verbs, modals nouns
> etc).  I recently ordered a grammar book that explains some of
> these terms but if you can recommend others I will order those.
> It is the hardest thing I found with studying Warder.
> robert


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141
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:42am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Thanks sarah,
I've just ordered "English Grammar for students of Latin" from
amazon.
--- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> your post has been a condition for me to be declining Latin
> nouns in my head
> for the first time in...well, a long time!
> 
> (Actually, if you looked at lesson 1 in a school Latin book,
> it might help or
> online I'm sure).
> 
> Usually we decline nouns in this order (I think the same for
> Pali), singular
> and then plural. So taking the example of 'monk' -
> 
> Nominative (nom.)= Subject as in: The monk visited the Buddha
> Vocative (voc.)= When spoken to as in: Listen monk
> Accusative (acc.)= Object as in : he saw the monk
> Genitive (gen.)= of...as in: the monk's bowl
> Dative (dat.)= to..as in: He made an offering to the monk
> Ablative (abl.)= by, from..as in: The buddha sat by the monk
> 
> It might be interesting to decline 'Bhikkhu', but maybe later!
> Too many gaps
> for me without some research.
> 
> Jim, for  'dhamma' in the passage, Nina was considering
> factors and I had
> considered 'essential factors' or 'conditioning factors' and
> you mentioned
> conditions as one translation. I rather like essential factors
> if you think
> this might be acceptable.
> 
> just looking at some interesting meaninsg of dhamma on p.121
> of Brahmajala
> Sutta (Bodhi) for those that have it. V.interesting.
> 
> Sarah
> 
> Sukin, Hi and welcome! I'm another of the lazy, inept students
> here...no
> comparisons necessary!!
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
> wrote: > Dear Jim,
> > I have a sad confession. One of the biggest problems I have
> is
> > with the English meta-language used to describe the grammar
> in
> > pali. In New Zealand we don't study latin and thus all the
> words
> > such as  nominative, accusative,
> > instrumental, dative, ablative, genitive, locative are  like
> a
> > foreign language in themselves( I understand verbs, modals
> nouns
> > etc).  I recently ordered a grammar book that explains some
> of
> > these terms but if you can recommend others I will order
> those.
> > It is the hardest thing I found with studying Warder.
> > robert
> 
> 
>
_______________________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at
> http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
> 


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142
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 5:01am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english dictionary (Rhys and
stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get here). Is that
the best one? I was going to order the malaseekera 2 vol set of
pali proper names but it comes in at about US280 dollars here in
japan! Is it worth it?
rob
--- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> Thanks sarah,
> I've just ordered "English Grammar for students of Latin" from
> amazon.
> --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> 

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143
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 7:38am
Subject: Samyutta nikaya part( iv)salayatanavagga
Dear Jim and group,
I have vol iv of the samyuttanikaya and its english translation.
This is perhaps my favourite volume in pali and I was thinking
it would be a not too difficult one to study. I'm going to try a
few passages for a reply to a post on dsg and see how that goes.
maybe if others are interested we could look at it with Jim's
help.
robert


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144
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 8:05am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Robert,
Don't waste your money on that  useless pts dict. Just
download that www.metta.lk 6mb. Buddhadatta pali-eng
will be good enough for you even for some word in tika
.Pts is publishing their new vol.1 pali dict now.that
malalasakera dict is useless because the book is about
name of arahant and book etc.



--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english
> dictionary (Rhys and
> stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get
> here). Is that
> the best one? I was going to order the malaseekera 2
> vol set of
> pali proper names but it comes in at about US280
> dollars here in
> japan! Is it worth it?
> rob
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> > Thanks sarah,
> > I've just ordered "English Grammar for students of
> Latin" from
> > amazon.
> > --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@y...>
> wrote:
> > 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
> http://buzz.yahoo.com/
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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145
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 8:27am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Thanks teng, 
robert
--- Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> Don't waste your money on that  useless pts dict. Just
> download that www.metta.lk 6mb. Buddhadatta pali-eng
> will be good enough for you even for some word in tika
> .Pts is publishing their new vol.1 pali dict now.that
> malalasakera dict is useless because the book is about
> name of arahant and book etc.
> 
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> > I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english
> > dictionary (Rhys and
> > stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get
> > here). Is that
> > the best one? I was going to order the malaseekera 2
> > vol set of
> > pali proper names but it comes in at about US280
> > dollars here in
> > japan! Is it worth it?
> > rob
> > --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> > > Thanks sarah,
> > > I've just ordered "English Grammar for students of
> > Latin" from
> > > amazon.
> > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
> > http://buzz.yahoo.com/
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
> 


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146
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 8:57am
Subject: Re: Samyutta nikaya part( iv)salayatanavagga
Dear group,
here is my first look at three sentences.
From the samyuttanikaya (vol.iv) salayatana vagga. The pali
diacrictics are missing.
5. Dutiya-aparijananasutta
27. Sabba bhikkhave, anabhijana aparijana avirajaya appajaha
abhabbo dukkhakkhayaya.
This is translated (relying On ven. bodhi's translation) as 
Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the
all (sabba), without developing dispassion towards it and
abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. 
 Kica, bhikkhave, sabba ...?
And what (kinca), bhikkhus is the all..?
____________
 Yaca, bhikkhave cakkhu, ye ca rupa, yaca cakkhuviana, ye ca
cakkhuviana aviatabba dhammarepeats for other senses.
This is, bhikkhus, the eye and rupa; the eyeconsciousness; and
dhammas (known, cognised )by eye consciosness.

In the above sentence I wasn't sure of V. bodhi's translation so
have made my own. What do have Jim?
In both the PTS edition and VRI edition of the pali they seem to
be missing the sota (ear). In bodhi's translation he includes
it. 




--- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> Dear Jim and group,
> I have vol iv of the samyuttanikaya and its english
> translation.
> This is perhaps my favourite volume in pali and I was thinking
> it would be a not too difficult one to study. I'm going to try
> a
> few passages for a reply to a post on dsg and see how that
> goes.
> maybe if others are interested we could look at it with Jim's
> help.
> robert
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
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> 


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147
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 8:58am
Subject: Re: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Rob,

The PTS's PED is the one I use most of the time. There is a new PED due out
anytime soon which will supersede the old one. This is the one by Margaret
Cone but only the first volume: A-KH is being printed and I don't know when
the remaining volumes will be out (could be years away). I think the old
dictionary will serve you well as it has for me and I would recommend it as
well as the new dictionary as it becomes available. The most authoritative
Pali-English dictionary is the Critical Pali Dictionary from Copenhagen. I
have the first two volumes covering all the vowels but it is very expensive
(might be around $300 usd) and it comes in small fascicles making it
difficult to use. The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names is an excellent
dictionary but seems awfully expensive at the price you quote. I bought my
set from PTS in 1979 for less than $60 usd including postage.

You're welcome to post short Pali passages for translation and study from
the 4th vol. of the Samyuttanikaya if you like.

I will answer Sukin's and your earlier post on meta-language soon. I'm often
slow in responding to messages. A lot depends on how busy I am with other
messages that come in and some of them require research for the answers and
that takes time.

Jim

>I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english dictionary (Rhys and
>stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get here). Is that
>the best one? I was going to order the malaseekera 2 vol set of
>pali proper names but it comes in at about US280 dollars here in
>japan! Is it worth it?
>rob




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148
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:03am
Subject: Re:_Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Ok Jim Thanks. Please give all your other work priority and just
look at anything I post if you have inclination. 
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Rob,
> 
> The PTS's PED is the one I use most of the time. There is a
> new PED due out
> anytime soon which will supersede the old one. This is the one
> by Margaret
> Cone but only the first volume: A-KH is being printed and I
> don't know when
> the remaining volumes will be out (could be years away). I
> think the old
> dictionary will serve you well as it has for me and I would
> recommend it as
> well as the new dictionary as it becomes available. The most
> authoritative
> Pali-English dictionary is the Critical Pali Dictionary from
> Copenhagen. I
> have the first two volumes covering all the vowels but it is
> very expensive
> (might be around $300 usd) and it comes in small fascicles
> making it
> difficult to use. The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names is an
> excellent
> dictionary but seems awfully expensive at the price you quote.
> I bought my
> set from PTS in 1979 for less than $60 usd including postage.
> 
> You're welcome to post short Pali passages for translation and
> study from
> the 4th vol. of the Samyuttanikaya if you like.
> 
> I will answer Sukin's and your earlier post on meta-language
> soon. I'm often
> slow in responding to messages. A lot depends on how busy I am
> with other
> messages that come in and some of them require research for
> the answers and
> that takes time.
> 
> Jim
> 
> >I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english dictionary (Rhys
> and
> >stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get here). Is
> that
> >the best one? I was going to order the malaseekera 2 vol set
> of
> >pali proper names but it comes in at about US280 dollars here
> in
> >japan! Is it worth it?
> >rob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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149
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:59am
Subject: Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Rob,

--- Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote: > I should add
i'm ordering the Pali- english dictionary (Rhys and
> stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get here). Is that
> the best one? I was going to order the malaseekera 2 vol set of
> pali proper names but it comes in at about US280 dollars here in
> japan! Is it worth it?

To me, certainly yes! Like jim, I had had an old set bought (2nd hand) in the
70s which starting falling apart from mould living on the Peak and had to be
thrown out. We hesitated over the expensive replacement, but well worth it,
esp. for someone like you....not for the pali but for the reference. We were
given the Rhys dict as a present by PTS so this made the price 'even out'. 

Just realised pali uses a different order for noun cases...so I'll keep quiet.
o'wise will confuse you more!
S.

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150
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 10:50am
Subject: netti atth. translation
By way of trial with errors, my translation.

netti p.87
tattha ta.nhaa duvidhaa: kusalaa pi akusalaa pi.
N:There clinging is twofold: kusala and akusala

akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii, kusalaa apacayagaaminii pahaanata.nhaa.
N: unwholesomeness leads to the cycle of birth and death, whereas
wholesomeness leads to dispersal of the conditions (for being in the this
cycle), (and this is)  the abandoning of clinging.
N: (the placing of pahaanata.nhaa? )

nett-a :

tattha kusalaa ti kusaladhammaaramma.naa.
 
There, <kusala> is the object which is kusala dhamma (the reality that is
wholesome).

kusala-saddo cettha baahitikasutte (Myanmar MN 2.358 aadayo) viya
anavajjatthe da.t.thabba

N:Just as the word kusala in the baahitikasutta, it should be explained here
(ca ettha, and here) as unblamable.

kasmaa panettha ta.nhaa kusalapariyaayena uddha.taa?

N: Why is here clinging lifted out (taken out or shown? ) according to the
method of kusala?

he.t.thaa desanaahaare vipallaasahetubhaavena ta.nha.m uddharitvaa
tassaa
vasena sa.mkilesapakkho dassito.

N: Below, in the mode of conveyeing (haara) of the teaching, having taken
out (shown?) clinging by nature of the perversity of root, and by means of
this it is shown as (on the side of) defilement.
   
vicittapa.tibhaanataaya pana idhaapi ta.nhaamukheneva vodaanapakkha.m
dassetu.m kusalapariyaayena ta.nhaa uddha.taa.

N:Here also with regard to (mukha) clinging, because of its manyfold
appearance clinging has been shown in the classification of kusala in order
to show it on the side of purity.
   
tattha sa.msaara.m gametiiti sa.msaaragaaminii, sa.msaaranaayikaati
attho.

N: Here, <it leads to the cycle of birth and death>, the mmeaning is
leading to the cycle (literally. nayati from neti?)

apacaya.m nibbaana.m gametiiti apacayagaaminii.

N: It leads to dispersal, nibbana, this is the meaning of leading to
dispersal. 

katha.m pana ta.nhaa apacayagaaminiiti?
aaha ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti.

N: But how can clinging lead to dispersal?
He says, clinging to abandoning.

tada"ngaadippahaanassa hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa.

N: clinging which  is a condition for the abandoning (by way) of suppression
etc.. 

katha.m pana ekantasaavajjaaya ta.nhaaya kusalabhaavoti?

N: But why has clinging which is surely blamable the nature of kusala?
(bhavo: is this because it stands before i?)

sevitabbabhaavato.

N: It is of the nature which can (should) be pursued.

yathaa ta.nhaa, eva.m maanopi duvidho kusalopi akusalopi, na ta.nhaa
evaati
ta.nhaaya nidassanabhaavena maano vutto.

N: Just as in the case of clinging, conceit is also twofold: kusala as well
as akusala.Just so (na) as clinging, by way of comparison with clinging,
conceit has been explained.

As a paralel to what should be pursued and what not, is the D. 21,
Sakka-Pa~nha sutta, recently quoted by Sukin: here in the case of feelings,
even unhappy feeling that is akusala belongs to this category.
Jim, as to Patisambhidamagga, could you please give me the location in the
English path of discrimination, then I can find the phrase in my Thai
edition of the commentary.
As to Dhamma as Law, I know the PTS translates it this way, but I am afraid
it gives rise to misunderstandings, it is as if the Dhamma is a set of laws
imposed on people. I try to avoid this translation. But, as you said, when
translating a Pali word we can often render only one aspect. One could have
a debate about each word and that would be too long. I am glad about your
list of aya.m etc. I am glad Num and Mike asked about the grammar, I find
that if I am not constantly after it, I loose it. The Netti Tika may be too
difficult, I shall see. Nina.
 
151
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 11:25am
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
> Would you be interested in translating the Thai translation of this 
sutta
> into English for us to compare? It can be found in nipaata 4, 
aapattivagga.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

This would be most interesting to me, what a wonderful suggestion!  I 
am using Mike's translation for the Psg one, for convenience's sake.  
The Thai version is the Mahamongkut one with rather archaic Thai which 
Khun Supii gave me this afternoon photocopied from the foundation 
library.


> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
Psg: Discourse on Increase of Wisdom 
Thai: About the development of panna (wa duay kwam jaroen panya)

> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.
Psg: These four things, monks, lead to increase of wisdom.
Thai: Behold, bhikkhu (du gone pigsu tang laii) these four dhamma 
evolve with the development of panna. (tamma sii prakarn nii pen pai 
pueh kwam jaroein panya)

> katame cattaaro?
Psg: Which four?
Thai: What are the four dhamma like?  (tamma see prakarn pen chanaii) 
They are: (kueh)

> sappurisasa.msevo,
Psg: Associating with a good man,
Thai: To associate with the sappurisa, (kohb sadburud)

> saddhammasavana.m,
Psg: hearing the true doctrine
Thai: to listen to the saddhamma (fang pra sadtam)

> yoniso manasikaaro,
Psg: attending wisely,
Thai: wise consideration/analysis, (tam naii jaii haii yaeb kaii)

> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti
Psg: practicing dhamma in conformity with the Law.
Thai: practice (/reach particularly) the dhamma according to the 
dhamma (patibat tam taam somkwan kae tam)

> ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa 
sa.mvattantiiti. 
Psg: Surely, monks, these four things lead to increase of wisdom.
Thai: These (nii lae) four dhamma (tamma sii pragarn) evolve 
with/condone to (pen paii peuh) the development of panna. (kwam 
jaroein panna)


Thank you for this great exercise,

Amara
 
152
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 0:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Thanks very much for this Amara. i especially appreciate you
giving the Thai (I know the pronunciation to many of the words)
;now I am learning 2 languages at once!
--- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> > Would you be interested in translating the Thai translation
> of this 
> sutta
> > into English for us to compare? It can be found in nipaata
> 4, 
> aapattivagga.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim
> 
> 
> Dear Jim,
> 
> This would be most interesting to me, what a wonderful
> suggestion!  I 
> am using Mike's translation for the Psg one, for convenience's
> sake.  
> The Thai version is the Mahamongkut one with rather archaic
> Thai which 
> Khun Supii gave me this afternoon photocopied from the
> foundation 
> library.
> 
> 
> > pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> Psg: Discourse on Increase of Wisdom 
> Thai: About the development of panna (wa duay kwam jaroen
> panya)
> 
> > cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> sa.mvattanti.
> Psg: These four things, monks, lead to increase of wisdom.
> Thai: Behold, bhikkhu (du gone pigsu tang laii) these four
> dhamma 
> evolve with the development of panna. (tamma sii prakarn nii
> pen pai 
> pueh kwam jaroein panya)
> 
> > katame cattaaro?
> Psg: Which four?
> Thai: What are the four dhamma like?  (tamma see prakarn pen
> chanaii) 
> They are: (kueh)
> 
> > sappurisasa.msevo,
> Psg: Associating with a good man,
> Thai: To associate with the sappurisa, (kohb sadburud)
> 
> > saddhammasavana.m,
> Psg: hearing the true doctrine
> Thai: to listen to the saddhamma (fang pra sadtam)
> 
> > yoniso manasikaaro,
> Psg: attending wisely,
> Thai: wise consideration/analysis, (tam naii jaii haii yaeb
> kaii)
> 
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti
> Psg: practicing dhamma in conformity with the Law.
> Thai: practice (/reach particularly) the dhamma according to
> the 
> dhamma (patibat tam taam somkwan kae tam)
> 
> > ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa 
> sa.mvattantiiti. 
> Psg: Surely, monks, these four things lead to increase of
> wisdom.
> Thai: These (nii lae) four dhamma (tamma sii pragarn) evolve 
> with/condone to (pen paii peuh) the development of panna.
> (kwam 
> jaroein panna)
> 
> 
> Thank you for this great exercise,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 


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153
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 0:21pm
Subject: Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m
Dear all,

A little amendment concerning the Thai, in the phrase 'patibat tam 
taam somkwan kae tam' the next to last word should read 'gae' and not 
'kae'.  

Glad you enjoyed it, Rob,

I will try to get the new Budsir installed since it might have a more 
modern Thai, but I guess the gist is much the same, although it might 
be easier to translate.  If you ever have anything to check with the 
Thai, Jim, I would be most happy to do it for you, what with all that 
you have been doing for all of us here!

Your grateful student,

Amara


--- In palistudy@y..., "Amara" <joychay@h...> wrote:
> > Would you be interested in translating the Thai translation of 
this 
> sutta
> > into English for us to compare? It can be found in nipaata 4, 
> aapattivagga.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim
> 
> 
> Dear Jim,
> 
> This would be most interesting to me, what a wonderful suggestion!  
I 
> am using Mike's translation for the Psg one, for convenience's sake. 
 
> The Thai version is the Mahamongkut one with rather archaic Thai 
which 
> Khun Supii gave me this afternoon photocopied from the foundation 
> library.
> 
> 
> > pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> Psg: Discourse on Increase of Wisdom 
> Thai: About the development of panna (wa duay kwam jaroen panya)
> 
> > cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti.
> Psg: These four things, monks, lead to increase of wisdom.
> Thai: Behold, bhikkhu (du gone pigsu tang laii) these four dhamma 
> evolve with the development of panna. (tamma sii prakarn nii pen pai 
> pueh kwam jaroein panya)
> 
> > katame cattaaro?
> Psg: Which four?
> Thai: What are the four dhamma like?  (tamma see prakarn pen 
chanaii) 
> They are: (kueh)
> 
> > sappurisasa.msevo,
> Psg: Associating with a good man,
> Thai: To associate with the sappurisa, (kohb sadburud)
> 
> > saddhammasavana.m,
> Psg: hearing the true doctrine
> Thai: to listen to the saddhamma (fang pra sadtam)
> 
> > yoniso manasikaaro,
> Psg: attending wisely,
> Thai: wise consideration/analysis, (tam naii jaii haii yaeb kaii)
> 
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti
> Psg: practicing dhamma in conformity with the Law.
> Thai: practice (/reach particularly) the dhamma according to the 
> dhamma (patibat tam taam somkwan kae tam)
> 
> > ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa 
> sa.mvattantiiti. 
> Psg: Surely, monks, these four things lead to increase of wisdom.
> Thai: These (nii lae) four dhamma (tamma sii pragarn) evolve 
> with/condone to (pen paii peuh) the development of panna. (kwam 
> jaroein panna)
> 
> 
> Thank you for this great exercise,
> 
> Amara
 
154
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 9:50pm
Subject: Links to Pali resources
Dear Group,
On my links page I've added some useful Pali resources 
including the Davids PTS pali dictionary.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/links%20page.htm
robert


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155
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 10:05pm
Subject: to Sukin: book suggestions
Dear Sukin,

I think the PTS dictionary and Warder's Introduction to Pali may be all you
need at the present time if you're only just beginning to study Pali. A
number of us here also have these two very valuable books so you could just
ask us about anything in them for clarification and feedback. A lot depends
on what information you're interested in. If you find Warder or the
dictionary doesn't offer all what you're looking for then you might consider
obtaining more books for further study. For these books I'd  recommend
Geiger's A Pali Grammar as a useful one for finding rare Pali words. It
also has many declensional and conjugational tables but nothing on syntax.
Another book you might want to consider is Perniola's Pali Grammar. I
haven't seen the book yet but it is one I intend to get for myself. Both of
these books are available from the PTS. The book that I consult as my main
authority on the Pali language is the Saddaniti (928pp) which has not been
translated into English so you'd have to know some Pali in order to make any
sense of it. Teng Kee recently mentioned to me that there is a Thai
translation of it. Even the Saddaniti doesn't explain everything and one
might then have to study Panini's famous Sanskrit grammar to fill in the
gaps. I started with just Warder and it wasn't until about seven years later
that I got started on the Saddaniti.

Wishing you success in your Pali studies,
Jim

>Dear Jim and all,
>Thanks a lot for the welcome.
>Judging from my accumulations I do not fit so well in here, since I
>have never been a studious person.
>But life is short, and at any time death might make a visit.
>Buddhadhamma is important, Pali is important too.
>I have the 'Introduction to Pali' by Warder, ant the PTS pali/english
>dict. And so if anyone can please suggest me any other books that
>would help me with the study I'd appreciate greatly.
>Thanks in advance,
>Sukin.


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156
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 7:39am
Subject: Re:_Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Robert,
I gave away pts dict long time ago because I think it
has too many mistakes and is a sanskrit-like dict.Read
and use Buddhadatta dict will be more than enough(book
from Buddhist Cultural centre in Sri lanka).Use
buddhadatta's 3 books on Pali grammar(also from sri
lanka) which is an easy to read book than others eng.
pali grammar like Warder,geiger and perniola etc.
The address to order critical
dict---direct@m...
Ask them to give you Denmark Krone only but not USD
will be cheaper

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> Ok Jim Thanks. Please give all your other work
> priority and just
> look at anything I post if you have inclination. 
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Rob,
> > 
> > The PTS's PED is the one I use most of the time.
> There is a
> > new PED due out
> > anytime soon which will supersede the old one.
> This is the one
> > by Margaret
> > Cone but only the first volume: A-KH is being
> printed and I
> > don't know when
> > the remaining volumes will be out (could be years
> away). I
> > think the old
> > dictionary will serve you well as it has for me
> and I would
> > recommend it as
> > well as the new dictionary as it becomes
> available. The most
> > authoritative
> > Pali-English dictionary is the Critical Pali
> Dictionary from
> > Copenhagen. I
> > have the first two volumes covering all the vowels
> but it is
> > very expensive
> > (might be around $300 usd) and it comes in small
> fascicles
> > making it
> > difficult to use. The Dictionary of Pali Proper
> Names is an
> > excellent
> > dictionary but seems awfully expensive at the
> price you quote.
> > I bought my
> > set from PTS in 1979 for less than $60 usd
> including postage.
> > 
> > You're welcome to post short Pali passages for
> translation and
> > study from
> > the 4th vol. of the Samyuttanikaya if you like.
> > 
> > I will answer Sukin's and your earlier post on
> meta-language
> > soon. I'm often
> > slow in responding to messages. A lot depends on
> how busy I am
> > with other
> > messages that come in and some of them require
> research for
> > the answers and
> > that takes time.
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > >I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english
> dictionary (Rhys
> > and
> > >stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get
> here). Is
> > that
> > >the best one? I was going to order the
> malaseekera 2 vol set
> > of
> > >pali proper names but it comes in at about US280
> dollars here
> > in
> > >japan! Is it worth it?
> > >rob
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
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>  
> 
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> 
> 



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157
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 8:02am
Subject: Re:_Re:__Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Thanks teng and jim and sarah,
I'll take it all on board. Fortunately my Uni. gives me a book
budget so I can use that for these books (can't take them with
me when I leave the uni. though). Good point about the english
grammar words Teng.
robert
--- Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> I gave away pts dict long time ago because I think it
> has too many mistakes and is a sanskrit-like dict.Read
> and use Buddhadatta dict will be more than enough(book
> from Buddhist Cultural centre in Sri lanka).Use
> buddhadatta's 3 books on Pali grammar(also from sri
> lanka) which is an easy to read book than others eng.
> pali grammar like Warder,geiger and perniola etc.
> The address to order critical
> dict---direct@m...
> Ask them to give you Denmark Krone only but not USD
> will be cheaper
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> > Ok Jim Thanks. Please give all your other work
> > priority and just
> > look at anything I post if you have inclination. 
> > --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > > Dear Rob,
> > > 
> > > The PTS's PED is the one I use most of the time.
> > There is a
> > > new PED due out
> > > anytime soon which will supersede the old one.
> > This is the one
> > > by Margaret
> > > Cone but only the first volume: A-KH is being
> > printed and I
> > > don't know when
> > > the remaining volumes will be out (could be years
> > away). I
> > > think the old
> > > dictionary will serve you well as it has for me
> > and I would
> > > recommend it as
> > > well as the new dictionary as it becomes
> > available. The most
> > > authoritative
> > > Pali-English dictionary is the Critical Pali
> > Dictionary from
> > > Copenhagen. I
> > > have the first two volumes covering all the vowels
> > but it is
> > > very expensive
> > > (might be around $300 usd) and it comes in small
> > fascicles
> > > making it
> > > difficult to use. The Dictionary of Pali Proper
> > Names is an
> > > excellent
> > > dictionary but seems awfully expensive at the
> > price you quote.
> > > I bought my
> > > set from PTS in 1979 for less than $60 usd
> > including postage.
> > > 
> > > You're welcome to post short Pali passages for
> > translation and
> > > study from
> > > the 4th vol. of the Samyuttanikaya if you like.
> > > 
> > > I will answer Sukin's and your earlier post on
> > meta-language
> > > soon. I'm often
> > > slow in responding to messages. A lot depends on
> > how busy I am
> > > with other
> > > messages that come in and some of them require
> > research for
> > > the answers and
> > > that takes time.
> > > 
> > > Jim
> > > 
> > > >I should add i'm ordering the Pali- english
> > dictionary (Rhys
> > > and
> > > >stede) on my uni. budget (takes 3 months to get
> > here). Is
> > > that
> > > >the best one? I was going to order the
> > malaseekera 2 vol set
> > > of
> > > >pali proper names but it comes in at about US280
> > dollars here
> > > in
> > > >japan! Is it worth it?
> > > >rob
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
> > http://buzz.yahoo.com/
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
> 


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158
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 7:20pm
Subject: meta-language
Dear Robert,

Sorry, I can't think of a good book that would help to explain the terms. In
Warder and also in Buddhadatta there are two meta-languages to understand
ie. with English terms (based on Latin grammars) and Pali terms (based on
native Pali grammars). Learning Pali includes learning to understand the
systems used to describe the language. I intend to utilize both systems but
I'd like to put more emphasis on the Indian linguistic system as that has
been the one used by the medieval Pali grammarians and by the commentators
in the atthakathaa-s, etc. in word explanations. Instead of using terms like
nom. acc., etc. as in Latin, Pali uses the terms pathamaa, dutiyaa, etc.
(first case, second case, etc.) which I think is better because it avoids
some misunderstanding. When we speak of the 3rd case (instrumental) it
is not just used to express the instrument but it has many other
applications including expressing the agent. There's quite a bit of
overlapping of the cases and we even saw recently where a so-called
nominative case was used in the sense of the instrumental (mahaa ca
raajaanubhaavena). When I posted the declensional table (naamikapadamaalaa
in Pali 'garland of nominal words') for 'aya.m', they were in numbered rows
1, 2, etc. which referred to pathamaa, dutiyaa, etc. I thought that without
giving some kind of interpretation with nom. acc. etc. people might not
understand which cases the rows referred to. Without knowing the Pali
meta-language it might be hard to figure out.

Best wishes,
Jim

>I have a sad confession. One of the biggest problems I have is
>with the English meta-language used to describe the grammar in
>pali. In New Zealand we don't study latin and thus all the words
>such as  nominative, accusative,
>instrumental, dative, ablative, genitive, locative are  like a
>foreign language in themselves( I understand verbs, modals nouns
>etc).  I recently ordered a grammar book that explains some of
>these terms but if you can recommend others I will order those.
>It is the hardest thing I found with studying Warder.
>robert



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159
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 9:28pm
Subject: questions
Dear A.Amara, Jim and everyone

Thanks krap A.Amara for the Thai translation. It's kind of funny to see and 
read Thai in Romanized  script.   There is a thick accent in it :)   Remind 
me of something, are there accent marks in Pali.? Like in Thai we have 
"ake-to-tree-catava" to make the tone and meaning of a word change.   Thai 
and Pali are quite different. In Thai there is no grammatical gender, no 
plural form, and no tense.  Another question, why Pali in English spelled 
with "P", in Thai from my understanding we call it "Bali"

Jim, I will be in Montreal next Saturday for week to attend a conference, and 
then I will rent a car a drive around for another 5 days.  As I can recall, 
you are in Canada.  May I ask, where are you in Canada? I think it's my 
privilege if I can meet with sappurisam or sappurissa, ( single accusative or 
dative I am not sure, I guess it should be "suppurissa savane"!! Just want to 
try to change the word for in this case number of noun, I guess).  Does verb 
change with single or plural in Pali like in English?   I took a look in  
Wader and could not find where is it in the book.

Thanks for your correction.

Num


 
160
From: Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@ksc.th.com> 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 2:26am
Subject: Re: to Sukin: book suggestions
Thankyou Jim.
Sukin

Jim Anderson wrote:

> Dear Sukin,
>
> I think the PTS dictionary and Warder's Introduction to Pali may be all you
> need at the present time if you're only just beginning to study Pali. A
> number of us here also have these two very valuable books so you could just
> ask us about anything in them for clarification and feedback. A lot depends
> on what information you're interested in. If you find Warder or the
> dictionary doesn't offer all what you're looking for then you might consider
> obtaining more books for further study. For these books I'd  recommend
> Geiger's A Pali Grammar as a useful one for finding rare Pali words. It
> also has many declensional and conjugational tables but nothing on syntax.
> Another book you might want to consider is Perniola's Pali Grammar. I
> haven't seen the book yet but it is one I intend to get for myself. Both of
> these books are available from the PTS. The book that I consult as my main
> authority on the Pali language is the Saddaniti (928pp) which has not been
> translated into English so you'd have to know some Pali in order to make any
> sense of it. Teng Kee recently mentioned to me that there is a Thai
> translation of it. Even the Saddaniti doesn't explain everything and one
> might then have to study Panini's famous Sanskrit grammar to fill in the
> gaps. I started with just Warder and it wasn't until about seven years later
> that I got started on the Saddaniti.
>
> Wishing you success in your Pali studies,
> Jim
>
> >Dear Jim and all,
> >Thanks a lot for the welcome.
> >Judging from my accumulations I do not fit so well in here, since I
> >have never been a studious person.
> >But life is short, and at any time death might make a visit.
> >Buddhadhamma is important, Pali is important too.
> >I have the 'Introduction to Pali' by Warder, ant the PTS pali/english
> >dict. And so if anyone can please suggest me any other books that
> >would help me with the study I'd appreciate greatly.
> >Thanks in advance,
> >Sukin.
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 
161
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 9:59pm
Subject: Re:_paaavuddhisutta.m.
Dear Sarah,

You wrote:
>Jim, for  'dhamma' in the passage, Nina was considering factors and I had
>considered 'essential factors' or 'conditioning factors' and you mentioned
>conditions as one translation. I rather like essential factors if you think
>this might be acceptable.

When I see 'factor' I think of 'anga' as in 'bojjhanga' or factor of
enlightenment. I looked in the Concise Oxford Dictionary (COD) for a
definition and found:"3. Circumstance, fact, or influence, contributing to a
result." So 'factors' might be acceptable and I don't have a problem with
'essential or conditioning in front of it. In 'sotaapattiyangaani' the
'angaani' is also translated as 'factors' so I wonder if there might be some
cause for confusion here between the two 'factors'. I don't know yet if they
are the same in both contexts (dhammaa & angaani). The com. defines angaani
as 'kaara.naani' (efficient cause, reason).

I have been thinking about the sequence of these four factors and I'm trying
to understand how the 'wise attention' fits in. Acc. to DA iii 1020 it is
attention by way of impermanence, etc. but acc. to Pa.tis-a 641 it is
attention by way of investigating the meaning (atthuupaparikkha.navasena) of
dhammas heard which fit well as the next step after hearing saddhamma.
Factors 2 and 3 seem related to sutamaya~naa.na and factor 4 to
bhaavanaamaya-~naa.na. Another way of looking at it: 2 & 3 relates to
pariyatti while 4 is pa.tipatti.

Best wishes,
Jim


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162
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 2:27am
Subject: Re: questions
--- In palistudy@y..., srnsk@a... wrote:
> Dear A.Amara, Jim and everyone
> 
> Thanks krap A.Amara for the Thai translation. It's kind of funny to 
see and 
> read Thai in Romanized  script.   There is a thick accent in it :)  
 Remind 
> me of something, are there accent marks in Pali.? Like in Thai we 
have 
> "ake-to-tree-catava" to make the tone and meaning of a word change. 


Dear NN, 

That's a major problem, isn't it, the absence of tonal marks!  And the 
lack of certain Thai consonants like 'taw tao' which exists in French, 
did you notice?  Also 'paw pla' as in the French 'Paris'.  I think it 
also makes the Thai apply certain tonal marks to other languages also, 
which sometimes makes it very distinctive to hear, especially in 
French which relies on intonation very much.  When you go to the 
islands and then to Canada, you will find the intonations change 
radically, in France itself there are a whole range of interesting 
accents from north to south, I found.  And the Swiss 'montagnards' 
have theirs!


  Thai 
> and Pali are quite different. In Thai there is no grammatical 
gender, no 
> plural form, and no tense.  Another question, why Pali in English 
spelled 
> with "P", in Thai from my understanding we call it "Bali"


There are several pairs that switch sounds, as I discussed with Sukin 
once, and I think that the Thais are the ones who did it since as far 
as I know other Pali literates in other countries all agree except for 
out Thai Pali; as I found it, rather consistently we find that when we 
Thais use gaw gai, or the g sound, the romanized alphabet would be k 
and vice versa. Here are the pairs:

 g/k         k/g,    as in ekaggata
gh/kh       kh/gh
 c/j         j/c           javana citta
ch/jh       jh/ch
 t/d         d/t           Siddattha
th/dh       dh/th
(the consonants with the dots under I don't know quite how to 
pronounce, in Thai as in English!)
 p/b         b/p           pubba kamma
ph/bh       bh/ph

Which is why most Thais would spell 'citta' as 'jitta' and 'javana' as 
'chavana', I think.  And account for the mispronounciation of family 
names from the old Pali transcripts with archaic pronounciations of 
the words!!!  My grandfather held the title of 'Praya Wasutape' which 
in English is written 'Vasudeb', for example!

I think it's great that you are learning French, it might be useful as 
well as fun for you to learn different languages, because some might 
even help you understand others.  For example in Thai there is the 
taste 'fahd' for which I have never found an equivalent in English, 
although the French have the word acre (with the 'accent 
circonflex'over the a).  Which also shows you that some realities 
exist without our naming them conventionally, but all conventional 
terms must be based on some extant arammana through some dvara, I 
think!  Exactly as TA and the Tipitaka taught!

And no matter the subject you study, even the dhamma, do remember it's 
your nama and rupa doing their functions, do the best you can and 
enjoy the rest with chandha if possible, and the minimum lobha!

Anumodana with your studies,
=^_^=
AA


> 
> Jim, I will be in Montreal next Saturday for week to attend a 
conference, and 
> then I will rent a car a drive around for another 5 days.  As I can 
recall, 
> you are in Canada.  May I ask, where are you in Canada? I think it's 
my 
> privilege if I can meet with sappurisam or sappurissa, ( single 
accusative or 
> dative I am not sure, I guess it should be "suppurissa savane"!! 
Just want to 
> try to change the word for in this case number of noun, I guess).  
Does verb 
> change with single or plural in Pali like in English?   I took a 
look in  
> Wader and could not find where is it in the book.
> 
> Thanks for your correction.
> 
> Num
 
163
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:39am
Subject: Re: to Sukin: book suggestions
hi,
I don't think any thai,burmese and srilankan need to
read any more pali grammar book in English because
they really have enough text tran or modern teachers
book to learn pali.I can get rare tika of sinhala tran
plus text for pali grammar book like buddhiipasadani 
with some cheap photocopying cost in colombo which
will never be possible in Eng.There are even more
grammar text for Myanmar pali student.
For thai student ,I think Mahamakut series of at least
4o books will be more  helpful than books by Warder
etc.
Ideally we should start with eng tran of kaccayana by
a myanmar scholar in English 100 years but out of
print now

-- Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@k...> wrote:
> Thankyou Jim.
> Sukin
> 
> Jim Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Dear Sukin,
> >
> > I think the PTS dictionary and Warder's
> Introduction to Pali may be all you
> > need at the present time if you're only just
> beginning to study Pali. A
> > number of us here also have these two very
> valuable books so you could just
> > ask us about anything in them for clarification
> and feedback. A lot depends
> > on what information you're interested in. If you
> find Warder or the
> > dictionary doesn't offer all what you're looking
> for then you might consider
> > obtaining more books for further study. For these
> books I'd  recommend
> > Geiger's A Pali Grammar as a useful one for
> finding rare Pali words. It
> > also has many declensional and conjugational
> tables but nothing on syntax.
> > Another book you might want to consider is
> Perniola's Pali Grammar. I
> > haven't seen the book yet but it is one I intend
> to get for myself. Both of
> > these books are available from the PTS. The book
> that I consult as my main
> > authority on the Pali language is the Saddaniti
> (928pp) which has not been
> > translated into English so you'd have to know some
> Pali in order to make any
> > sense of it. Teng Kee recently mentioned to me
> that there is a Thai
> > translation of it. Even the Saddaniti doesn't
> explain everything and one
> > might then have to study Panini's famous Sanskrit
> grammar to fill in the
> > gaps. I started with just Warder and it wasn't
> until about seven years later
> > that I got started on the Saddaniti.
> >
> > Wishing you success in your Pali studies,
> > Jim
> >
> > >Dear Jim and all,
> > >Thanks a lot for the welcome.
> > >Judging from my accumulations I do not fit so
> well in here, since I
> > >have never been a studious person.
> > >But life is short, and at any time death might
> make a visit.
> > >Buddhadhamma is important, Pali is important too.
> > >I have the 'Introduction to Pali' by Warder, ant
> the PTS pali/english
> > >dict. And so if anyone can please suggest me any
> other books that
> > >would help me with the study I'd appreciate
> greatly.
> > >Thanks in advance,
> > >Sukin.
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 



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164
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:51am
Subject: Re: to Sukin: book suggestions
--- In palistudy@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> hi,
> I don't think any thai,burmese and srilankan need to
> read any more pali grammar book in English because
> they really have enough text tran or modern teachers
> book to learn pali.


Dear TK,

I have always been scared of Pali and now that I have found a teacher 
who is as knowledgeable, thorough as well as interesting and generous 
as Jim, which makes this ancient language so much less daunting and 
more approachable and even somewhat fun to learn, I hope you are not 
trying to discourage me from studying!!!  I am even more grateful to 
be studying the romanized script since I will have to use it on the 
website which I am webmaster of.  I have also run into some mistakes 
early on in a Thai translation of a passage, which was not the same as 
in the English translation, and when we checked with the Pali it was 
the English Pali that was more grammatically correct, according to our 
expert at the time, a bhikkhu of great learning.  So any knowledge is 
always good, since translators are mortals too, especially these days, 
or have you never made any mistakes yourself?  Scribes and copyists 
can drop an 'a' and turn 'akusala' into 'kusala' ever so easily, don't 
you find?  And some translators use such poor English that it is very 
hard to understand the already difficult texts, so I would prefer to 
study with a good teacher than to rely entirely on other's work.  One 
should compare all translations possible, of course, as there maybe 
aspects others have overlooked that could give a more complete picture 
of the comprehensive dhamma.

I am still waiting for your address to send you the Puggala Pannatti 
translation by Ajaan Somporn that I got from the foundation, as I 
emailed you already on Saturday.  Did you get my message?

Amara


I can get rare tika of sinhala tran
> plus text for pali grammar book like buddhiipasadani 
> with some cheap photocopying cost in colombo which
> will never be possible in Eng.There are even more
> grammar text for Myanmar pali student.
> For thai student ,I think Mahamakut series of at least
> 4o books will be more  helpful than books by Warder
> etc.
> Ideally we should start with eng tran of kaccayana by
> a myanmar scholar in English 100 years but out of
> print now
> 
> -- Sukinderpal Narula <sukin@k...> wrote:
> > Thankyou Jim.
> > Sukin
> > 
> > Jim Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear Sukin,
> > >
> > > I think the PTS dictionary and Warder's
> > Introduction to Pali may be all you
> > > need at the present time if you're only just
> > beginning to study Pali. A
> > > number of us here also have these two very
> > valuable books so you could just
> > > ask us about anything in them for clarification
> > and feedback. A lot depends
> > > on what information you're interested in. If you
> > find Warder or the
> > > dictionary doesn't offer all what you're looking
> > for then you might consider
> > > obtaining more books for further study. For these
> > books I'd  recommend
> > > Geiger's A Pali Grammar as a useful one for
> > finding rare Pali words. It
> > > also has many declensional and conjugational
> > tables but nothing on syntax.
> > > Another book you might want to consider is
> > Perniola's Pali Grammar. I
> > > haven't seen the book yet but it is one I intend
> > to get for myself. Both of
> > > these books are available from the PTS. The book
> > that I consult as my main
> > > authority on the Pali language is the Saddaniti
> > (928pp) which has not been
> > > translated into English so you'd have to know some
> > Pali in order to make any
> > > sense of it. Teng Kee recently mentioned to me
> > that there is a Thai
> > > translation of it. Even the Saddaniti doesn't
> > explain everything and one
> > > might then have to study Panini's famous Sanskrit
> > grammar to fill in the
> > > gaps. I started with just Warder and it wasn't
> > until about seven years later
> > > that I got started on the Saddaniti.
> > >
> > > Wishing you success in your Pali studies,
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > >Dear Jim and all,
> > > >Thanks a lot for the welcome.
> > > >Judging from my accumulations I do not fit so
> > well in here, since I
> > > >have never been a studious person.
> > > >But life is short, and at any time death might
> > make a visit.
> > > >Buddhadhamma is important, Pali is important too.
> > > >I have the 'Introduction to Pali' by Warder, ant
> > the PTS pali/english
> > > >dict. And so if anyone can please suggest me any
> > other books that
> > > >would help me with the study I'd appreciate
> > greatly.
> > > >Thanks in advance,
> > > >Sukin.
 
165
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 6:21pm
Subject: Re: questions
Dear Num,

>Thanks krap A.Amara for the Thai translation. It's kind of funny to see and
>read Thai in Romanized  script.   There is a thick accent in it :)   Remind
>me of something, are there accent marks in Pali.?

There are no (pitch) accent marks in Pali, but you can see them in the Vedic
and Sanskrit texts which I think have just three accents: high tone
(udaatta), low tone (anudaatta), and a combination of the two (svarita).
Pali, like Sanskrit, has two stress accents on the syllables: heavy (garu)
and light (lahu).

> Like in Thai we have
>"ake-to-tree-catava" to make the tone and meaning of a word change.   Thai
>and Pali are quite different. In Thai there is no grammatical gender, no
>plural form, and no tense.  Another question, why Pali in English spelled
>with "P", in Thai from my understanding we call it "Bali"

I'd say that the "P" is the correct one. Doesn't your Pali-Thai dictionary
show it spelt with a "P"? "v" is sometimes changed to a "b" in Pali as in
'byaapaada' but the unchanged form 'vyaapaada' is also seen.

>Jim, I will be in Montreal next Saturday for week to attend a conference,
and
>then I will rent a car a drive around for another 5 days.  As I can recall,
>you are in Canada.  May I ask, where are you in Canada?

I live about 90 miles north of Toronto near Georgian Bay (Lake Huron). A
road map shows a distance of about 610 kms from Montreal to here which
would take a full day to drive. You're welcome to visit but I must warn you
that my living situation is quite primitive and not ideally suitable to
accommodate an overnight guest comfortably unless you want to rough it.
Perhaps staying in one of the local inns might solve the problem. If you're
still interested just contact me off-list and I will give you my exact
location and directions. If you'd rather tour Quebec you might consider
Quebec City and the north shore of the Gaspe Peninsula to Perce.

>I think it's my
>privilege if I can meet with sappurisam or sappurissa, ( single accusative
or
>dative I am not sure, I guess it should be "suppurissa savane"!! Just want
to
>try to change the word for in this case number of noun, I guess).

If you're using a Pali word in an English sentence, I'd use the uninflected
stem form "sappurisa". The dative sing. is "sappurisassa". I found another
commentary ref. that reads a plural for 'sappurisa' with sa.mseva (DA iii
1020).

>Does verb
>change with single or plural in Pali like in English?   I took a look in
>Wader and could not find where is it in the book.

The verb has forms in the singular and the plural like in English but much
more of them as in French. Look in Warder's index under 'agreement' for more
information on concord between verb and agent. Pali is a highly inflected
language where one has to learn ever so many endings which are hard to
remember. It's certainly not easy to look at lines of Pali and know what
each inflectional ending refers to.

Best wishes,
Jim


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166
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 3:35pm
Subject: Re: questions :suppurisa
Dear Jim,

Thank you for your correction and your answers to my questions.

Let me try the declension of suppurisa

                   Sing.                             Plural
Nom            suppuriso                      suppurisa (with a bar ontop of 
a)
Gen.            suppurisassa                suppurisanam(with dot ontop of m)
Dat.             suppurisassa                suppurisanam
Acc.            suppurisam                   suppurise
Ins.             suppurisena                   suppurisehi
Abl.             suppurisa(-)                   suppurisehi
                   suppurisasma
                   suppurisamha
                   suppurisato
Loc.            suppurise                      suppurisesu
                   suppurisasmim
                   suppurisamhi
Voc.            suppurisa                      suppurisa
                   suppurisa(-)


I am not well oriented to the difference of each case yet.   Please correct 
me at any points.

Thanks for your kind welcoming to your place.  Let me talk to my friend more 
about our plan.  I will definitely stop by if I go to Ottawa area, but if 
not, I will keep you post.

Have to run.

Num


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
167
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:41am
Subject: Re: Samyutta nikaya part( iv)salayatanavagga
Dear Robert,

>Dear group,
>here is my first look at three sentences.
>From the samyuttanikaya (vol.iv) salayatana vagga. The pali
>diacrictics are missing.
>5. Dutiya-aparijananasutta

The title in the PTS edition is: Parijaanaana 2. In the uddaana at the end
of the sabbavagga in both editions it reads: parijaanaa (nt. pl.) apare
duve. I think the name of the sutta should properly be called:
parijaanasutta (2). An uddaana is a summary verse giving the names of the
suttas in a vagga.

>27. Sabba bhikkhave, anabhijana aparijana avirajaya appajaha
>abhabbo dukkhakkhayaya.

With the diacritics and the missing letters added:

Sabbam bhikkhave, anabhijaana.m aparijaana.m aviraajaaya.m appajaha.m
abhabbo dukkhakkhayaaya.

sabba.m (nt. sg. acc.) is the object/patient of the four present participles
beginning with anabhijaana.m (m. sg. nom.) which modify the agent abhabbo
(one who is incapable). I have yet to determing the status of the affix
"aaya" which is included as with dative sing. in Warder's declension table
but does not at all appear in Aggava.msa's table. You will not find
(a)viraajaaya.m (ppr.) in the PED. It belongs to 'viraajeti' which is a
causative verb, I believe. B.Bodhi is obviously taking it as a causative
present participle when he uses 'developing'.

>This is translated (relying On ven. bodhi's translation) as
>Bhikkhus without directly knowing and fully understanding the
>all (sabba), without developing dispassion towards it and
>abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering.

J: Bhikkhus, not clearly understanding the all, not fully understanding the
all, not detaching oneself from the all, not abandoning the all, one is
incapable of destroying suffering.

> Kica, bhikkhave, sabba ...?

ki~nca, bhikkhave, sabba.m ... dukkhakkhayaaya?

>And what (kinca), bhikkhus is the all..?

____________
> Yaca, bhikkhave cakkhu, ye ca rupa, yaca cakkhuviana, ye ca
>cakkhuviana aviatabba dhammarepeats for other senses.

ya~nca, bhikkhave cakkhu, ye ca ruupaa, ya~nca cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m, ye ca
cakkhuvi~n~naa.navi~n~naatabbaa dhammaa ....

>This is, bhikkhus, the eye and rupa; the eyeconsciousness; and
>dhammas (known, cognised )by eye consciosness.

J: Bhikkhus, whatever is the eye, whatever are visible objects, whatever is
eye-consciousness, whatever mental objects are cognizable by
eye-consciousness ...

'This' seem to be misplaced. It's a very long sentence which starts from
"ya~nca bhikkhave cakkhu" in paragraph 4 (PTS) and ends in paragraph 11
with "dukkhakkhayaaya." The first major part of the sentence contains 24
relative clause each beginning with a relative pronoun: ya.m, ye, yaa, yo.
The second one (the main clause) starts with "Ida.m kho bhikkhave" in
paragraph 11. The summation of all those relative clauses defines: ida.m
sabba.m (this is the all) and is the answer to: what is the all? (ki~nca
sabba.m).

>In the above sentence I wasn't sure of V. bodhi's translation so
>have made my own. What do have Jim?
>In both the PTS edition and VRI edition of the pali they seem to
>be missing the sota (ear). In bodhi's translation he includes
>it.

The clauses pertaining to the ear and the nose are included in the ...pe...
(peyyaala) which require one to fill in the missing parts which is easy for
this passage. Just replace eye with ear or nose.

Best wishes,
Jim


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168
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:48pm
Subject: Re: questions :suppurisa
Dear Num,

>Let me try the declension of suppurisa
>
>                   Sing.                             Plural
>Nom            suppuriso                      suppurisa (with a bar ontop
of
>a)
>Gen.            suppurisassa                suppurisanam(with dot ontop of
m)
>Dat.             suppurisassa                suppurisanam
>Acc.            suppurisam                   suppurise
>Ins.             suppurisena                   suppurisehi
>Abl.             suppurisa(-)                   suppurisehi
>                   suppurisasma
>                   suppurisamha
>                   suppurisato
>Loc.            suppurise                      suppurisesu
>                   suppurisasmim
>                   suppurisamhi
>Voc.            suppurisa                      suppurisa
>                   suppurisa(-)
>
>
>I am not well oriented to the difference of each case yet.   Please correct
>me at any points.

The big problem here is with the order of the cases which I believe is based
on the one in Duroiselle's grammar. The order: nom. gen. dat. is the one
used in Latin grammars and it seems that Duroiselle is declining Pali
according to a Latin-style model. I think it would be better to follow the
model set down by the ancient Indian grammarians: nom. acc. instr. dat. abl.
gen. loc. (voc.?) I'm not sure of the placing of the vocative as I think it
may just be a subcase of the nominative. I'll have to follow up on this
sometime. I think you must be meaning sappurisa and not suppurisa which I
couldn't find on the cscd disk. However, there was one occurrence of
supurisaa (in DhpA).

It is advisable that in writing Pali words correctly in email messages to
use an accepted convention of writing the diacritical marks (ie. double
vowels for the long, a period before the consonant for the dot under it, ~n
for the palatal n, "n for the guttural n). This way of writing Pali words is
also used by the PTS on their website. However, I think it is acceptable to
write a Pali word without the diacritics within English sentences providing
that it doesn't get confused with another similar looking Pali word.

Here's the standard way of declining the masc. noun 'puriso' as acc. to the
Saddaniti:

1. puriso : purisaa
2. purisa.m : purise
3. purisena : purisehi purisebhi
4. purisassa : purisaana.m
5. purisaa purisasmaa purisamhaa : purisehi purisebhi
6. purisassa : purisaana.m
7. purise purisasmi.m purisamhi : purisesu
voc. bho purisa (bho purisaa) : bhavanto purisaa.

The colon separates the sing. forms from the plural.

If you have any more questions save them until after your Montreal holiday
as I'd like to get started on Nina's translation of the Netti com. passage
next.

Bon voyage,
Jim



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169
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:25pm
Subject: Re: questions :suppurisa
Dear Jim,

Thanks Jim.   Yeap, I use Duroiselle's Pali grammar.  I made a small copy of 
the e-book version, so I can take it with me on the trip.   I look at my Thai 
Pali grammar by Mahamakutrajavidhyalai, it does not look any easier than 
Wader or Duroiselle.  

I will take my notebook with me on this trip, so I can keep in touch through 
the e-mail. This trip is work related plus an extra vacation at the end.   

Looking forward to a new exercised passage then.

Cordialement.

Num


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
170
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:27pm
Subject: Dhs 981
Dear members,

We have a another new member on psg. Welcome to the group Tadao!

For some time now I have been trying to make sense of the passage in the
Netti com. that Nina translated for us. Unfortunately, there are just too
many difficult points in the Pali text for me to understand and it would
require many more hours of study to solve just a few of the problems I have
run into. I will continue to work on it but it may take a while yet before I
can post a reply to Nina's translation. From now on I think I will refrain
from posting Pali passages that are far too difficult for any of us to
translate or understand. So as not to lose anymore time over this I'm going
ahead in posting another simple passage for anyone here interested in
translating, analysing, raising questions, or offering comments on it. This
passage is taken from the Dhammasangani and has a structural similarity to
the Pa~n~naavuddhisutta posted earlier.

katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho, adoso, amoho;
ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho, sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.

I copied this from the Devanagari ed. printed in India in 1960. The PTS
version has two major errors in it: sabbayutto instead of sampayutto and
manokamma.m is missing.

Best wishes,
Jim


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171
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 8:41pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Jim et al.,

Here's a very rough draft--I'll place it after the
text to avoid polluting others' efforts.

mike

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:

> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani --
> alobho, adoso, amoho; 
> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho,
> sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m
> kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.
> 
> I copied this from the Devanagari ed. printed in
> India in 1960. The PTS
> version has two major errors in it: sabbayutto
> instead of sampayutto and
> manokamma.m is missing.

Which things are wholesome? These three wholesome
roots -- disinterestedness, non-anger, wisdom; these
associated with the aggregate of sensation, the
aggregate of perception, the aggregate of mental
coefficients and the aggregate of consciousness; that
cause bodily action, verbal action, mental action --
These things are wholesome.



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172
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 8:41pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
p.s.  Welcome, Tadao!


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173
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:24pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Thanks, Mike.
tadao

174 [Deleted]
 
175
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:20pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Welcome Tadao! Great to hear you work at a uni. in the field of
linguistics. Is your main subject Pali? My students are keenly
working on the Japanese translation of 'Buddhism in daily life'
(now on chapter 5) and might have something for you to look at
before the end of the year. 
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear members,
> 
> We have a another new member on psg. Welcome to the group
> Tadao!
> 
> For some time now I have been trying to make sense of the
> passage in the
> Netti com. that Nina translated for us. Unfortunately, there
> are just too
> many difficult points in the Pali text for me to understand
> and it would
> require many more hours of study to solve just a few of the
> problems I have
> run into. I will continue to work on it but it may take a
> while yet before I
> can post a reply to Nina's translation. 
Thanks Jim. I found Ninas transaltion VERY interesting and would
love any more , especially from the tikas.


From now on I think I
> will refrain
> from posting Pali passages that are far too difficult for any
> of us to
> translate or understand. So as not to lose anymore time over
> this I'm going
> ahead in posting another simple passage for anyone here
> interested in
> translating, analysing, raising questions, or offering
> comments on it. This
> passage is taken from the Dhammasangani and has a structural
> similarity to
> the Pa~n~naavuddhisutta posted earlier.
> 
> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho,
> adoso, amoho;
> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho,
> sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m,
> vaciikamma.m,
> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.
> 
I haven't looked at the other translations yet. I will try. Your
choice is again right at my level. The only word I don't know is
katame
> What dhammas (realities) are wholesome? There are three
wholesome roots- , nonaversion, non greed,nondelusion
These are in association with feeling aggregate, perception
aggregate, consciousness agregate.
This is the origination of bodily action, action through speech,
action through mind,  which is wholesome.
robert
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
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> 
> 



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176
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 0:53am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Tadao and Susie,

Welcome to the list!  Please tell Susie if she's not with you that my 
mother sends her love,

Amara



--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear members,
> 
> We have a another new member on psg. Welcome to the group Tadao!
> 
> For some time now I have been trying to make sense of the passage in 
the
> Netti com. that Nina translated for us. Unfortunately, there are 
just too
> many difficult points in the Pali text for me to understand and it 
would
> require many more hours of study to solve just a few of the problems 
I have
> run into. I will continue to work on it but it may take a while yet 
before I
> can post a reply to Nina's translation. From now on I think I will 
refrain
> from posting Pali passages that are far too difficult for any of us 
to
> translate or understand. So as not to lose anymore time over this 
I'm going
> ahead in posting another simple passage for anyone here interested 
in
> translating, analysing, raising questions, or offering comments on 
it. This
> passage is taken from the Dhammasangani and has a structural 
similarity to
> the Pa~n~naavuddhisutta posted earlier.
> 
> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho, adoso, 
amoho;
> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho, 
sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.
> 
> I copied this from the Devanagari ed. printed in India in 1960. The 
PTS
> version has two major errors in it: sabbayutto instead of sampayutto 
and
> manokamma.m is missing.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
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177
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:17am
Subject: Re: Re: Dhs 981
Hi, Khun Amara:
It's nice to hear from you.
I hope everything is fine and well with you and your mother.
I will pass your regards to Susie.
tadao
 
178
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:28am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Hi, Mike:
With respect to your translation, I feel that your translation of
"tii.ni kusalmuulaani . . ." is accurate but too "literal".
More likely, it may be phrased as "any dhammas which are associated
with any of the following: alobha, adoso, and/or amoha" (,treating
"kusala-muulaani" as a tatpuri.sa compound.  What do you think about my
interpretation?
tadao
 
179
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 3:20pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Tadao,

Yours certainly sounds better than mine.  I have a
look at your '"kusala-muulaani" as a tatpuri.sa
compound' as soon as I get the chance.

This kind of over-literal translation is a very old
habit of mine, going back to high school German 30
years ago, then again with (spoken) Japanese 20 years
ago--maybe because I have no academic background so I
tend to take a kind of rough-hewn approach.  It isn't
much good for reading or speaking, but I like to get
the literal meanings down first, then sort of
re-translate them into idioms.  Just a lazy guy's
habit, really...

Thanks for your comments.

mike

--- ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:

> Hi, Mike:
> With respect to your translation, I feel that your
> translation of
> "tii.ni kusalmuulaani . . ." is accurate but too
> "literal".
> More likely, it may be phrased as "any dhammas which
> are associated
> with any of the following: alobha, adoso, and/or
> amoha" (,treating
> "kusala-muulaani" as a tatpuri.sa compound.  What do
> you think about my
> interpretation?
> tadao
> 


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180
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:34am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Hi, Mike:
I think your rendition is much more accute. Mine is more interpretive.
I learnt my way of interpreting Pali text from late Dhammadhara
(Khun Allen), who was the brightest guy I've ever met in my life.
He could have spent hours to try to intrepret/understand just a simple
Pali passage.
tadao
 
181
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:27am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Hi, Robert:
(i) Thank you for your e-mail.
(ii) As a lingutist, I am not specilized in Pali (or South Asian languages)
but in Syntax, Psycholinguistics, and Acoustic/Experimental Phonetics (see
http://web.uvic.ca/ling/ [Faculity/Tadao Miyamoto]
for my academic interests/publication/picture).
(iii) During summer, I am free to develop my own courses, so I taught
"The Pali Language and Pali Buddhist Literature" three summers ago;
"The South-east Asian Languages" two summers ago; and "The Sanskrit
Language" this summer (starting from next week) as part of my summer
courses.
(iv) I look forward to receiving a tranlstion of the book.
I would like to edit it during the winter break. So if you can
send it to my by the beginning of December, it would be great.
 Best Wishes, tadao
 
182
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:53pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Tadao,

--- ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:

> Hi, Mike:
> I think your rendition is much more accute. Mine is
> more interpretive.
> I learnt my way of interpreting Pali text from late
> Dhammadhara
> (Khun Allen), who was the brightest guy I've ever
> met in my life.
> He could have spent hours to try to
> intrepret/understand just a simple
> Pali passage.

I really think that's the way (yours and Allen's) to
do it.  I don't think I would have got interested in
Pali had it not occurred to me that Abhidhamma is
really just defining the terms in the Suttanta.  That
being the case (if it is) and understanding (in the
sense of right view) being the goal, the greater the
definement the better--sort of like the resolution in
a photograph.  I started out reading the Suttas (in
translation of course) years ago and thought I
understood them--but I really had only a very vague
(and sometimes completely mistaken) idea of what the
translated words meant, kind of a blurry picture with
most of the general shapes, lines, coutours, shadows,
highlights and so on.  Abhidhamma, I think, helps to
bring the picture into sharper and sharper focus--but
all dependent on really understanding (conceptually)
the terms.

I think Jim's approach is like that too (see #124
e.g.).  As much as I admire it though, I can't emulate
it--I don't have the intellect for it.  In order not
to become discouraged I need to attack the subject as
best I can on my own level--but I'm certainly very
glad to have to likes of Jim et al. to look up to.

mike    

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183
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:57pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Hi, Mike:
My approach to the Pali text is rather different from yours.
I like reading suttanta, especially, the oldest ones, such as
Dhammapada and Sutta-nipaata. Simple expressions of the Buddha
contain so much falvaours. My liking of simple texts may be
due to two reasons: having been a monk staying somtimes
by myself in isolated places and needing his encouragements;
and being Japanese, who are not noted for their ability to think
logically.
tadao
 
184
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:56pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Mike (and Tadao)

>> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani --
>> alobho, adoso, amoho;
>> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho,
>> sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
>> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m
>> kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
>> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.

Mike translates:
>Which things are wholesome? These three wholesome
>roots -- disinterestedness, non-anger, wisdom; these
>associated with the aggregate of sensation, the
>aggregate of perception, the aggregate of mental
>coefficients and the aggregate of consciousness; that
>cause bodily action, verbal action, mental action --
>These things are wholesome.

In spite of Tadao's comments, I think your translation isn't literal enough!
His reference to the compound "kusalamuulaani" as a tappurisa (Skt.
tatpuru.sa) took me by surprise as I was reading it as "wholesome roots"
just like you. The Atthasaalinii (As), which is the commentary on
Dhammasangani, gives two interpretations of this compound on p.344:
kusalaani ca taani muulaaani ca (these wholesome things, the roots) which is
a type of kammadhaaraya and the second one as: kusalaana.m dhammaana.m
muulaani (the roots of wholesome things) which is a sixth case tappurisa.
The interpretation "wholesome roots" is another type of kammadhaaraya
called a visesanapubbapada (acc. to Saddaniti, p.751) in which the preceding
word is the attribute or qualifier/specifier as in an adj. + noun
combination. The type given in the com. is a different one called a
visesanuttarapada in which the last word is the attribute like in
Sariputtatthera (Saariputta, the thera). The Sadd. gives nine types of
kammadhaaraya-s.

I wonder if "wisdom" is a good choice for "amoho" as wisdom is most often
used for  pa~n~naa.

"these associated with the aggregate of . . ." is a reversal of "associated
with them <is> the aggregate of . . ." The com. interprets "ta.msampayutto"
as "tehi alobhaadiihi sampayutto" (associated with these beginning with
alobha).

As for your non-literal "that cause" for "ta.msamu.t.thaana.m", the com.
interprets this as "tehi alobhaadiihi samu.t.thita.m" (originated by these
beginning with alobha). I'm not sure of the case of "tehi" here. Is it the
instrumental or ablative pl. or can it be either? An ablative would give the
interpretation "originated from . . .".

Best wishes,
Jim


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185
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:40am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981 - correction
Dear Mike,

>"these associated with the aggregate of . . ." is a reversal of "associated
>with them <is> the aggregate of . . ." The com. interprets "ta.msampayutto"
>as "tehi alobhaadiihi sampayutto" (associated with these beginning with
>alobha).

Correction: the <is> in the above should be deleted as it gives the wrong
meaning to the whole phrasing. "associated with them, the aggregate of
sensation, the aggregate of perception . . ." of course is a literal
translation. My interpretation is that each aggregate and its constituents
are wholesome when associated with these roots (I take it that except for 4
cittas in kusala kaamavacara the remaining 17 cittas are associated with all
three roots. One problem for me has been some confusion over kusala as a
noun or adj. which seems to both be used in the Pali passage. I must point
out that I'm by no means fluent in Pali and I still have a lot more learning
to do myself.

Jim


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186
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Transl Dhs
Please, Jim, do not worry about my netti Atthk translation, you have many
other things, also the work of the others in the group. I do not regret my
effort and it is fine to leave it now. I enjoy small parts for translation,
enough pitfalls. 

> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho, adoso,
amoho;

N: Which are wholesome realities? Three wholesome roots: detachment,
non-aversion and wisdom.
> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho,
sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho;
N: The khandhas of feeling, perception, formations and consciouness are
(therefore) associated with it.
 ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.
N: Deeds through the body, speech and mind are (each) originated by them.
These are wholesome realities.
 
A sandhi: ta.msampayutto ? I looked up PTs under ta, in sandhi: ta.m refers
back to what has been mentioned: that or: even this, or therefore. Here lies
the difficulty. And also, they are all in case 1, nominative.
Nina.
 
187
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:37pm
Subject: Re: Transl Dhs
Dear Nina,

> Please, Jim, do not worry about my netti Atthk translation, you have many
>other things, also the work of the others in the group. I do not regret my
>effort and it is fine to leave it now. I enjoy small parts for translation,
>enough pitfalls.

Thank you for your kind consideration. I won't give up on it just yet. But
will put it aside until a better time to work on it.

>> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho, adoso,
>amoho;
>
>N: Which are wholesome realities? Three wholesome roots: detachment,
>non-aversion and wisdom.

I think it would be better to put "are wholesome" at the end so as to
maintain a consistent word order throughout a translation of the triplets
and couplets. In the second triplet, for example, it would be hard to place
a translation of "sukhaaya vedanaaya sampayuttaa" in front of "realities".

>> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho,
>sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
>> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho;
>N: The khandhas of feeling, perception, formations and consciouness are
>(therefore) associated with it.

To me, "The khandhas of feeling, perception, formations and consciouness
that are associated with them." would be more in agreement with the text.

> ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
>> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.
>N: Deeds through the body, speech and mind are (each) originated by them.
>These are wholesome realities.

I would put it this way: "The deeds through the body, speech and mind that
are (each) originated by them." My reading of the passage is a list of items
answering to the question: "Which realilites are wholesome?" and that list
consists of: the three wholesome roots, the 4 khandhas (excluding the
realities not associated with these roots), the three kammas (originated by
or originating from these roots).

>A sandhi: ta.msampayutto ? I looked up PTs under ta, in sandhi: ta.m refers
>back to what has been mentioned: that or: even this, or therefore. Here
lies
>the difficulty. And also, they are all in case 1, nominative.
>Nina.

It seems that the "ta.m-" is a cause for confusion. I found a sandhi rule in
the Saddaniti that explains it and even uses "ta.msampayutto" as an example.

146. kvaci niggahiitaagamo. "In some cases the niggahiita-augment." Its
commentary explains: "In some cases there is a niggahiita-augment before a
following vowel or consonant. [eg.] cakhhum udapaadi; ava.msiro; yaava~n
c'ida.m bhikkhave; ta.msampayutto; a.nu.mthuulaani sabbaso;  pubba"ngamaa
dhammaa."

It means that the .m in ta.m- is an augment or an inserted letter (aagama).
This ta.m- should not be confused with the adverbial or inflected word form
"ta.m". The pronominal base "ta" is compounded with sampayutto with the .m
inserted in between. Depending on the context "ta.m" here could be
interpreted in any gender, number, or case. The Atthasalini takes it as
"tehi" (masc. pl. instr.) ie. tehi sampayutto "associated with them"
(alobho, adoso, amoho).

Best wishes,
Jim


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188
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 7:17am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Jim,--- Jim Anderson  wrote:> In spite of Tadao's comments, I think your> translation isn't literal enough!Thanks very much, I'm sure it isn't--exactly why I'm here.  I'll work on it and respond at length when time permits.Meanwhile I thought you might be interested in this note and might, if you have time, like to contact Dr Masefield if you haven't done already: From: Peter Masefield   To: pali-intro-l@n... Note: forwarded message attached.Fwd: Re: sukara-maddava/commentarial pali


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
189
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 7:22am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
dear mike,
the forwarded note didn't come through,
robert
--- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,--- Jim Anderson  wrote:> In spite of Tadao's
> comments, I think your> translation isn't literal
> enough!Thanks very much, I'm sure it isn't--exactly why I'm
> here.  I'll work on it and respond at length when time
> permits.Meanwhile I thought you might be interested in this
> note and might, if you have time, like to contact Dr Masefield
> if you haven't done already: From: Peter Masefield   To:
> pali-intro-l@n... Note: forwarded message attached.Fwd:
> Re: sukara-maddava/commentarial pali
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a
> year!
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 


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190 [Deleted]

191
From: mlnease@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 7:43am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Sorry, all--it's in HTML so I'm having a hard time forwarding it.  
I'll try saving it as text and sending it again.

--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> dear mike,
> the forwarded note didn't come through,
> robert
> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Jim,--- Jim Anderson  wrote:> In spite of Tadao's
> > comments, I think your> translation isn't literal
> > enough!Thanks very much, I'm sure it isn't--exactly why I'm
> > here.  I'll work on it and respond at length when time
> > permits.Meanwhile I thought you might be interested in this
> > note and might, if you have time, like to contact Dr Masefield
> > if you haven't done already: From: Peter Masefield   To:
> > pali-intro-l@n... Note: forwarded message attached.Fwd:
> > Re: sukara-maddava/commentarial pali
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a
> > year!
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
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192
From: mlnease@yahoo.com 
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 7:45am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Thank you for your able and learned defense of the information you 
kindly provided us. Some years ago I tried to extend my understanding 
of Pali beyond the Sutta Pitaka, so I have some appreciation of how 
formidable Commentarial Pali can be.  I don't wish to trouble you, 
but how do you suggest one go about becoming acquainted with the Pali 
of Buddhaghosa and Dhammapaala?   How extensive must one's knowledge 
of the Abhidhamma be in order to make use of the Commentaries?  Is it 
best just to begin with the Visuddhimagga and persevere until one 
becomes accustomed to its style and terminology, or are there 
particular texts that might prove helpful and less dry and difficult 
for the beginner?  Any comments or suggestions would be highly valued 
from you. 
Dear Joseph Dawson, 

Thank you for your kind note. 

In my opinion, Dhammapaala is a far superior scholar to Buddhaghosa, 
with a highly intimate acquaintance with the (non-Buddhist) Indian 
tradition as a whole, ranging from such things as medicinal remedies 
to musical composition and notation, dramatic dance postures, and the 
like, not to mention the 20 or 22 types of bride. 

As to your question as to how to set about learning commentarial 
Pali, I must confess that there is, as far as I am aware, no actual 
text available that really introduces one to anything but a 
superficial knowledge of Pali, and at that always canonical Pali. 
Maybe I should try to produce one dealing with commentarial Pali one 
of these days, if only the funding were to become available. 

Warder's "Introduction to Pali" is good as far as it goes, but is 
confined to the language of the Diighanikaaya.  There are several 
other books, but none seems to embrace commentarial Pali.  It is not 
so much a question of a development in the meaning of terms between 
the two bodies of literature.  The real difficulty lies rather in 
understanding the style and syntax of commentarial Pali.  I do not 
know whether you are aware of my translation of the Udaana commentary 
(Pali Text Society,1994-1995), but in the introduction to same I give 
a few general remarks about the method of composition of such texts, 
and the real reasons for same. 

Probably the best way to start is to take some commentary (and there 
are few) which have already been translated, and then compare the 
original with its translation.  In my own case, I was originally 
asked to revise a translation of the Petavatthu commentary originally 
produced in Burma.  In the end, I had to re-do the whole thing, and 
then re-do it yet again, since I had, in the meantime, learned so 
much.  All a bit like repainting the Sydney Harbour Bridge--when you 
get to the end of the job, the first section already needs 
repainting ! 

I do not think the Visuddhimagga would be the best place to start.  
Actually, I prefer Dhammapaala's style, and you might start with my 
own translation of the commentaries on the Petavatthu and 
Vimaanavatthu--very enjoyable texts in themselves, and less cluttered 
with doctrine/dogma. 

Of course, the commentaries frequently allude to aspects of the 
teaching that have long since been lost to us.  Once the composer of 
a commentary finished his summary of all the extant commentaries 
available to him, he seems to have discarded the originals which he 
had been summarising, just as someone writing an essay throws away 
the initial drafts once the final version is completed. 

Finally, although a knowledge of the Abhidhamma is surely useful, 
there is, in my experience, surprisingly little reference to such 
texts in the commentaries, save for commentaries on those texts 
specifically belonging to the canonical Abhidhamma. 

I hope I may have been of a little help.  If I can be of further 
assistance, please do not hesitate in approaching me. 

Peter Masefield. 

--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> dear mike,
> the forwarded note didn't come through,
> robert
> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Jim,--- Jim Anderson  wrote:> In spite of Tadao's
> > comments, I think your> translation isn't literal
> > enough!Thanks very much, I'm sure it isn't--exactly why I'm
> > here.  I'll work on it and respond at length when time
> > permits.Meanwhile I thought you might be interested in this
> > note and might, if you have time, like to contact Dr Masefield
> > if you haven't done already: From: Peter Masefield   To:
> > pali-intro-l@n... Note: forwarded message attached.Fwd:
> > Re: sukara-maddava/commentarial pali

> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
 
193
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 10:13am
Subject: Re: Re: Dhs 981
Thanks mike,
I like dr. Masefields translations especially as he often gives
the pali alongside the translation. 
I think if jim ever does a book translation it may be even
better as Jim explains the grammar and alternative possibilities
in detail - one really understands the meaning then.
Well worth buying all of masefields commentarial translations.
robert
--- mlnease@y... wrote:
> Thank you for your able and learned defense of the information
> you 
> kindly provided us. Some years ago I tried to extend my
> understanding 
> of Pali beyond the Sutta Pitaka, so I have some appreciation
> of how 
> formidable Commentarial Pali can be.  I don't wish to trouble
> you, 
> but how do you suggest one go about becoming acquainted with
> the Pali 
> of Buddhaghosa and Dhammapaala?   How extensive must one's
> knowledge 
> 

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194
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2001 10:35pm
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Mike,

<< >Dear Jim,--- Jim Anderson  wrote:> In spite of Tadao's comments, I think
your> translation isn't literal enough!Thanks very much, I'm sure it
isn't--exactly why I'm here.  I'll work on it and respond at length when
time permits.Meanwhile I thought you might be interested in this note and
might, if you have time, like to contact Dr Masefield if you haven't done
already: From: Peter Masefield   To: pali-intro-l@n... Note:
forwarded message attached.Fwd: Re: sukara-maddava/commentarial pali >>

Thank you for forwarding Dr. Masefield's message albeit after several tries.
The problem was with the attachment not the HTML format. Psg, like dsg, is
set to remove any attachments to prevent the spread of viruses and also to
convert html formatting to plain text. Messages in html come with billboard
banners which I find rather irritating. I noticed last week that Yahoogroups
reversed a setting from 'html to txt' conversion to 'txt to html'. To
restore the original setting go to My Preferences and set to 'no conversion'
and the messages will come through in text/plain instead of the ugly
text/html content-type.

I'm also a subscriber to Pali-intro-L and had received the same message and
I'm glad that you forwarded it to psg. I find it exceptional good and quite
helpful. I really like his analogy of repainting the Sydney Harbour Bridge.
I might try contacting Dr. Masefield to find out if he'd be interested in
joining psg. For anyone here interested in subscribing to pali-intro-L send
a message to: majordomo@w... and in the body type: subscribe
pali-intro-L

With the Dhs translation you don't need to go any further with it unless you
wish to. I hope I didn't insist too much on a literal translation. This is
something that we will have to look at from timte to time and maybe do some
experimenting in both the literal and interpretive approaches. I tend to
think along the lines of a literal translation of a canonical text but with
the commentary in full view functioning as interpreter. So perhaps what we
need to do is translate a canonical passage in such a way that it agrees not
only with the original but also with the commentarial interpretations that
go with it. Perhaps when we become more knowledgeable in Pali we could
translating the text with its commentary side by side.

Jim


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195
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2001 8:07am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Jim,

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:

> To
> restore the original setting go to My Preferences
> and set to 'no conversion'
> and the messages will come through in text/plain
> instead of the ugly
> text/html content-type.

The closest setting I could find to 'no conversion'
was 'always use non-frames, non-javascript version'--I
also selected 'forward as in-line text' as the default
forward type.  Hope this helps

> With the Dhs translation you don't need to go any
> further with it unless you
> wish to. 

I look forward to continuing with it though it'll be
along time before it approaches the standards you
suggest below.

> I hope I didn't insist too much on a
> literal translation. 

Not at all--I think this is the best I can hope for at
present.

> This is
> something that we will have to look at from time to
> time and maybe do some
> experimenting in both the literal and interpretive
> approaches. I tend to
> think along the lines of a literal translation of a
> canonical text but with
> the commentary in full view functioning as
> interpreter. So perhaps what we
> need to do is translate a canonical passage in such
> a way that it agrees not
> only with the original but also with the
> commentarial interpretations that
> go with it. 

That seems to make perfect sense and also to put the
commentaries to the use for which they were intended. 


> Perhaps when we become more
> knowledgeable in Pali we could
> translating the text with its commentary side by
> side.

Seems like the ideal goal to me.  Thanks again, Jim.

mike

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196
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 3, 2001 1:00pm
Subject: niggahiita augments.
I find it amazing, Jim, the way you make corrections to each of us so
interesting, adding new points all the time. I am glad we arrived now at the
niggahiitaagamo. I hope you choose many of them in future texts so that we
learn to recognize them. Your corrections gave me much to think about.
Amoho: it is translated (PTS) as non-delusion. We translated wisdom because
it is pa~n~naa cetasika, but it is true that as a sobhana hetu it is
classified as amoha. Many thanks, we learn from each correction, Nina.
 
197
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 9:18pm
Subject: AN I.51-52
Dear list-members,

The passage: "Monks, this mind sparkles. And it is polluted by guest
pollutants." recently quoted by Suan Lu Zaw on dsg is from the following
sutta (1.6.1) which I give in full along with the next one which form a
pair. You are welcome to try translating one or both suttas and/or comment
on various points of interest, if desired. Questions are welcome too.

1. 6. 1.
pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi
upakkili.t.tha.m. ta.m assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuuta.m nappajaanaati.
tasmaa assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa natthiiti vadaamiiti.

1. 6. 2.
pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi
vippamutta.m. ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. tasmaa
sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.



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198
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 9:04am
Subject: Re: Dhs 981
> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho, adoso, 
amoho;
> ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho, 
sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.
> 
> I copied this from the Devanagari ed. printed in India in 1960. The 
PTS
> version has two major errors in it: sabbayutto instead of sampayutto 
and
> manokamma.m is missing.


Dear Jim,

I was still working on this one, (valiantly resisting the temptation 
to call up our experts for help,) but I can't find the following in my 
dict.:

tii.ni (does it have anything to do with the ti that we often see at 
the end of phrases and sentences?)
ta.m-(sampayutto), (samu.t.thaana.m)
ime I think you already explained.

I think I caught the gist of the message of course, another wonderful 
choice by the way. 

The new ones also look really great too!

Thanks for everything and anumodana,

Amara
 
199
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jul 5, 2001 11:14am
Subject: Re: Re: Dhs 981
Dear Amara,

>> katame dhammaa kusalaa? tii.ni kusalamuulaani -- alobho, adoso,
>> amoho; ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho, sa~n~naakkhandho,
>sa"nkhaarakkhandho,
>> vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m,
>> manokamma.m -- ime dhammaa kusalaa.

>Dear Jim,
>
>I was still working on this one, (valiantly resisting the temptation
>to call up our experts for help,) but I can't find the following in my
>dict.:
>
>tii.ni (does it have anything to do with the ti that we often see at
>the end of phrases and sentences?)
>ta.m-(sampayutto), (samu.t.thaana.m)
>ime I think you already explained.

tii.ni (three) is the neuter plural nom. & acc. form of the pronominal base
'ti' (uninflected form). I looked up 'ti' in PED but which doesn't give the
inflected forms. You might have to look in a grammar book for its
declension. The Saddaniti gives:

NEUTER (only in the plural):
1. tii.ni
2. tii.ni
3. tiihi, tiibhi
4. ti.n.na.m, ti.n.nanna.m
5. tiihi, tiibhi
6. ti.n.na.m, ti.n.nanna.m
7. tiisu.

The nom. and acc. of the masculine are both 'tayo' and of the feminine,
'tisso'. The neuter 'tii.ni' agrees with the neuter pl. nom.
'kusalamuulaani' (gender, number, and case agreement). The particle 'ti'
that we see at the end of a passage has nothing to do with the numeral 'ti'
(three). The particle 'ti' is a shortened form of 'iti' (thus, end quote).

I've already explained the 'ta.m-' of ta.msampayutto, ta.msamu.t.thaana.m
and 'ime' (these) is the masc. pl. nom. and acc. form of the pronominal base
'ima' (this) and agrees with 'dhammaa'.

>I think I caught the gist of the message of course, another wonderful
>choice by the way.
>
>The new ones also look really great too!

The new ones will be even more challenging! I glanced through the
commentary and by 'citta.m' is meant 'bhava"ngacitta.m' so we may have to
call in our abhidhamma experts here to explain. A 'javanakkha.ne' is also
mentioned a few times. I will try bringing in the commentary at some point.

When I introduce a new exercise to work on it doesn't mean that we're
finished with the previou ones which will always be open for more
discussion or further work. I had got started on looking at 'amoha' in
greater detail and discovered a linguistic connection to 'vicikicchaa' by
looking up the root 'muh' which has the meaning 'vecitta' (Skt. vaicittya)
which is derived from 'vicitta'. 'vicikiccha' is from the desiderative of vi
+ cit.

Jim


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200
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 1:18pm
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation
op 05-07-2001 03:18 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...
> 1. 6. 1.
> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi
> upakkili.t.tha.m.
N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by
oncoming defilements.

>ta.m assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuuta.m nappajaanaati.
N:The ordinary person who has not learned (the Dhamma, not listened to it)
does not understand it as it really is.
> tasmaa assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa natthiiti vadaamiiti.
N:Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who has not listened there is
no mental development (literally. free: the ordinary person who has not
listened to the Dhamma has not developed the mind.)
  
> 1. 6. 2.
> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi
> vippamutta.m. 
N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released from
oncoming defilements.
>ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
>tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the mind.

Remarks: sutavaa seems to be from sutavant, just like mahaa from mahavant.
Ta~nca: a niggahita before the c. Aagantuka: who has arrived, a visitor. The
upakilesas, defilements arising with the citta (different from the anusayas,
latent tendencies who do not arise with the akusala citta but can condition
akusala), are like visitors from outside. It seems disturbing, but we have
to note: the ariyan knows the citta as it really is: yathaabutta. One has to
know also akusala citta as it is, otherwise one cannot become an ariyan,
this is stressed in this short sutta.
Yathaabhuuta: bhuuta: that which has grown, is, exists, the truth.
yathaabhuuta: in its real essence, according to the truth.
vippamutta: pamu~ncati: to release. The prefix vip is usually a negation,
but what is it here?
   
The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using the word
pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be clear
in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-citta." Now
I like to quote from Acharn's Survey of Paramattha dhammas where she
explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that when one
is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does not
experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one experiences
all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects give rise
to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the function of
keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast asleep and
also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta experiences the
same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an echo of
the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no
latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the citta.
It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements arise.
I quote:  
< The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object
through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody
who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like or
dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no lovingkindness nor
compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he
does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should
be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object through
one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many different
defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the
arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, and the
arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant.>

The person who is enlightened, the ariyasaavako, has eradicated anusayas by
the development of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path. It is pa~n~naa which
knows realities as they are, yathaabhuuta, no other way. Anusayas are
eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment, and only the arahat is
freed from all defilements, he has no more latent tendencies of defilements,
no conditions for their arising. Nina.
 
201
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 6, 2001 1:56pm
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation
--- In palistudy@y..., Nina van Gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
> op 05-07-2001 03:18 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...
> > 1. 6. 1.
> > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi 
upakkilesehi
> > upakkili.t.tha.m.
> N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed 
corrupted by
> oncoming defilements.
> 
> >ta.m assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuuta.m nappajaanaati.
> N:The ordinary person who has not learned (the Dhamma, not listened 
to it)
> does not understand it as it really is.
> > tasmaa assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa natthiiti 
vadaamiiti.
> N:Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who has not listened 
there is
> no mental development (literally. free: the ordinary person who has 
not
> listened to the Dhamma has not developed the mind.)
>   
> > 1. 6. 2.
> > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi 
upakkilesehi
> > vippamutta.m. 
> N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released 
from
> oncoming defilements.
> >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
> N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
> >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
> N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed 
the mind.
> 
> Remarks: sutavaa seems to be from sutavant, just like mahaa from 
mahavant.
> Ta~nca: a niggahita before the c. Aagantuka: who has arrived, a 
visitor. The
> upakilesas, defilements arising with the citta (different from the 
anusayas,
> latent tendencies who do not arise with the akusala citta but can 
condition
> akusala), are like visitors from outside. It seems disturbing, but 
we have
> to note: the ariyan knows the citta as it really is: yathaabutta. 
One has to
> know also akusala citta as it is, otherwise one cannot become an 
ariyan,
> this is stressed in this short sutta.
> Yathaabhuuta: bhuuta: that which has grown, is, exists, the truth.
> yathaabhuuta: in its real essence, according to the truth.
> vippamutta: pamu~ncati: to release. The prefix vip is usually a 
negation,
> but what is it here?
>    
> The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using 
the word
> pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to 
be clear
> in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the 
Bhavanga-citta." Now
> I like to quote from Acharn's Survey of Paramattha dhammas where she
> explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
> experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that 
when one
> is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one 
does not
> experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one 
experiences
> all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects 
give rise
> to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the 
function of
> keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast 
asleep and
> also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting 
of an
> uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta 
experiences the
> same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an 
echo of
> the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
> previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there 
are no
> latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the 
citta.
> It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements 
arise.
> I quote:  
> < The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an 
object
> through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. 
Everybody
> who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like 
or
> dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no 
lovingkindness nor
> compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise 
because he
> does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it 
should
> be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object 
through
> one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many 
different
> defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition 
the
> arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, 
and the
> arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something 
unpleasant.>
> 
> The person who is enlightened, the ariyasaavako, has eradicated 
anusayas by
> the development of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path. It is pa~n~naa 
which
> knows realities as they are, yathaabhuuta, no other way. Anusayas 
are
> eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment, and only the 
arahat is
> freed from all defilements, he has no more latent tendencies of 
defilements,
> no conditions for their arising. Nina.


Dear Nina, and all, 

As usual the Pali is way over my head but the dhamma is beautiful, 
thank you and many thanks to Jim, as always, for this wonderful 
reminder,

Amara
 
202
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 2:49am
Subject: Anyobody know this sutta?
Dear group.
i saw this on another site, Does anybody have a reference. most of my 
Anguttara nikaya is in new Zealand
\
""" the Anguttara-Nikaya that
mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of Liberation"). The 5 include
BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to Dhamma talks, giving 
Dhamma
talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), & reflecting systematically on
Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize reality (= Dhamma) &
release itself from clinging during any of these activities"""""
thanks
robert
 
203
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 7:22am
Subject: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?
Dear robert,
I think this is in dighanikaya -sangiti sutta by
sariputta.Maybe this is repeated in AN,i am not sure




--- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> Dear group.
> i saw this on another site, Does anybody have a
> reference. most of my 
> Anguttara nikaya is in new Zealand
> \
> """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
> mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of
> Liberation"). The 5 include
> BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to Dhamma
> talks, giving 
> Dhamma
> talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), & reflecting
> systematically on
> Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize
> reality (= Dhamma) &
> release itself from clinging during any of these
> activities"""""
> thanks
> robert
>     
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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204
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 8:22am
Subject: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?
Thanks teng.
Actually I don't have a copy of the digha nikaya either. Could
someone quote the section to me?
thanks
robert
--- Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear robert,
> I think this is in dighanikaya -sangiti sutta by
> sariputta.Maybe this is repeated in AN,i am not sure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> > Dear group.
> > i saw this on another site, Does anybody have a
> > reference. most of my 
> > Anguttara nikaya is in new Zealand
> > \
> > """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
> > mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of
> > Liberation"). The 5 include
> > BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to Dhamma
> > talks, giving 
> > Dhamma
> > talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), & reflecting
> > systematically on
> > Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize
> > reality (= Dhamma) &
> > release itself from clinging during any of these
> > activities"""""
> > thanks
> > robert
> >     
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
> 


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205
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 9:56am
Subject: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?
Dear Robert,

Tipitaka references for the 5 vimuttaayatanani are: D iii 241-3 (DN 33), 279
(DN 34); A iii 21-4 (AN V.26); Pa.tis 5. As you can see the passage takes up
several pages and would take a long time for me to type out. So you might
try looking for a translation already available online  (try metta.lk for
D33 or accesstoinsight.org).

Jim



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206
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 10:47am
Subject: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?
---


Dear Jim.
Thanks Jim.
I checked metta.lk - it is one of the few digha suttas NOT translated 
and they have not yrt translated the anguttara at all. 
Also accesstoinsight have neither the digha or the anguttara 
translation. 
I have the patisambhidhimagga translation but that is too terse!

However, do not worry about it as soon i will be in new zealnd and 
will pick up my copies of these volumes. At least now thanks to you 
and teng kee i know exactly where to look.
Just one question - does the letter extract I posted give an accurate 
representation of the sutta and the 5 vimuttiayatana or not?
'yes' 'no' or 'sort of' will do fine.
thanks 
robert
 In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Tipitaka references for the 5 vimuttaayatanani are: D iii 241-3 (DN 
33), 279
> (DN 34); A iii 21-4 (AN V.26); Pa.tis 5. As you can see the passage 
takes up
> several pages and would take a long time for me to type out. So you 
might
> try looking for a translation already available online  (try 
metta.lk for
> D33 or accesstoinsight.org).
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
207
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 11:31am
Subject: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Dear Robert,

I've looked this up before, a long time ago (for you?)
but can't seem to find it now. I've leafed through
the Book of Fives and don't see it obviously there. I
think the person citing this meant 'ayana' by the way,
not 'aayatana'. I'll keep an eye out and let you know
if I'm able to find it.

mike

--- robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Dear group.
> i saw this on another site, Does anybody have a
> reference. most of my 
> Anguttara nikaya is in new Zealand
> \
> """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
> mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of
> Liberation"). The 5 include
> BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to Dhamma
> talks, giving 
> Dhamma
> talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), & reflecting
> systematically on
> Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize
> reality (= Dhamma) &
> release itself from clinging during any of these
> activities"""""
> thanks
> robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
    

 
208
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 0:31pm
Subject: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Thans, Jim,

So I'm off-base looking for ayana (nt. path) for
'avenue' rather than aayatana?

mike

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Tipitaka references for the 5 vimuttaayatanani are:
> D iii 241-3 (DN 33), 279
> (DN 34); A iii 21-4 (AN V.26); Pa.tis 5. As you can
> see the passage takes up
> several pages and would take a long time for me to
> type out. So you might
> try looking for a translation already available
> online (try metta.lk for
> D33 or accesstoinsight.org).
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
>
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209
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2001 9:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Dear Robert, (Mike, see at the end)

>Dear Jim.
>Thanks Jim.
>I checked metta.lk - it is one of the few digha suttas NOT translated
>and they have not yrt translated the anguttara at all.
>Also accesstoinsight have neither the digha or the anguttara
>translation.
>I have the patisambhidhimagga translation but that is too terse!
>
>However, do not worry about it as soon i will be in new zealnd and
>will pick up my copies of these volumes. At least now thanks to you
>and teng kee i know exactly where to look.
>Just one question - does the letter extract I posted give an accurate
>representation of the sutta and the 5 vimuttiayatana or not?
>'yes' 'no' or 'sort of' will do fine.
>thanks
>robert

Here's the extract:
<< """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of Liberation"). The 5 include
BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to Dhamma talks, giving
Dhamma
talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), & reflecting systematically on
Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize reality (= Dhamma) &
release itself from clinging during any of these activities""""" >>

There is some similarity but one really has to read and study the entire
sutta which is hard to sum up briefly. But here are some of the basic points
from Rhys Davids' DN 33 translation:

1. when a Master or a reverend fellow disciple teaches the Norm to a brother
. . .
2. while he himself teaching others the Norm in detail . . .
3. when he is reciting the doctrines of the Norm in detail . . .
4. when he applies his thought to the Norm . . .
5. when he has well grasped some given clue (nimitta) to concentration,
has well applied his understanding, has well thought it out, has well
penetrated it by intuition (pa~n~naa) . . .

I tried reading the Pali original with com. and subcom. and find it a
difficult sutta to understand clearly. All five ayatanas seem to involve
samadhi and attainment of arahattaphala. aayatana is understood to mean
efficient cause (kaara.na) acc. to com.

I hope this will be of some help until you get a hold of your books in NZ.

Mike, you wrote: << So I'm off-base looking for ayana (nt. path) for
'avenue' rather than aayatana? >>

Yes, I'm afraid you're off-base here but I can see how you might associate
'avenue' with 'way' (ayana as in ekaayana). aayatana has been translated in
so many different ways that it makes it a hard one to translate. You can
find the Vimutti Sutta at G.S. iii 15ff. Thanks for your input.

Best wishes,
Jim


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210
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Jul 9, 2001 11:53pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    JIM,
This is really helpful. I hate to be a cause of work for you but
really this is a very interesting sutta. The definition of
aayatana as efficient cause in this case is very useful.
thanks
robert

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Robert, (Mike, see at the end)
> 
> >Dear Jim.
> >Thanks Jim.
> >I checked metta.lk - it is one of the few digha suttas NOT
> translated
> >and they have not yrt translated the anguttara at all.
> >Also accesstoinsight have neither the digha or the anguttara
> >translation.
> >I have the patisambhidhimagga translation but that is too
> terse!
> >
> >However, do not worry about it as soon i will be in new
> zealnd and
> >will pick up my copies of these volumes. At least now thanks
> to you
> >and teng kee i know exactly where to look.
> >Just one question - does the letter extract I posted give an
> accurate
> >representation of the sutta and the 5 vimuttiayatana or not?
> >'yes' 'no' or 'sort of' will do fine.
> >thanks
> >robert
> 
> Here's the extract:
> << """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
> mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of Liberation"). The 5
> include
> BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to Dhamma talks,
> giving
> Dhamma
> talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), & reflecting
> systematically on
> Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize reality (=
> Dhamma) &
> release itself from clinging during any of these
> activities""""" >>
> 
> There is some similarity but one really has to read and study
> the entire
> sutta which is hard to sum up briefly. But here are some of
> the basic points
> from Rhys Davids' DN 33 translation:
> 
> 1. when a Master or a reverend fellow disciple teaches the
> Norm to a brother
> . . .
> 2. while he himself teaching others the Norm in detail . . .
> 3. when he is reciting the doctrines of the Norm in detail . .
> .
> 4. when he applies his thought to the Norm . . .
> 5. when he has well grasped some given clue (nimitta) to
> concentration,
> has well applied his understanding, has well thought it
> out, has well
> penetrated it by intuition (pa~n~naa) . . .
> 
> I tried reading the Pali original with com. and subcom. and
> find it a
> difficult sutta to understand clearly. All five ayatanas seem
> to involve
> samadhi and attainment of arahattaphala. aayatana is
> understood to mean
> efficient cause (kaara.na) acc. to com.
> 
> I hope this will be of some help until you get a hold of your
> books in NZ.
> 
> Mike, you wrote: << So I'm off-base looking for ayana (nt.
> path) for
> 'avenue' rather than aayatana? >>
> 
> Yes, I'm afraid you're off-base here but I can see how you
> might associate
> 'avenue' with 'way' (ayana as in ekaayana). aayatana has been
> translated in
> so many different ways that it makes it a hard one to
> translate. You can
> find the Vimutti Sutta at G.S. iii 15ff. Thanks for your
> input.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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211
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 0:27am
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Thanks also, Jim and Robert, 

Have I missed something (I've just skimmed this so
maybe I have) but where does the original question re.
'avenues' come in? I can't find a connection between
aayatanaa and avenues.

Thanks in advance, 

mike

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> JIM,
> This is really helpful. I hate to be a cause of work
> for you but
> really this is a very interesting sutta. The
> definition of
> aayatana as efficient cause in this case is very
> useful.
> thanks
> robert
> 
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > Dear Robert, (Mike, see at the end)
> > 
> > >Dear Jim.
> > >Thanks Jim.
> > >I checked metta.lk - it is one of the few digha
> suttas NOT
> > translated
> > >and they have not yrt translated the anguttara at
> all.
> > >Also accesstoinsight have neither the digha or
> the anguttara
> > >translation.
> > >I have the patisambhidhimagga translation but
> that is too
> > terse!
> > >
> > >However, do not worry about it as soon i will be
> in new
> > zealnd and
> > >will pick up my copies of these volumes. At least
> now thanks
> > to you
> > >and teng kee i know exactly where to look.
> > >Just one question - does the letter extract I
> posted give an
> > accurate
> > >representation of the sutta and the 5
> vimuttiayatana or not?
> > >'yes' 'no' or 'sort of' will do fine.
> > >thanks
> > >robert
> > 
> > Here's the extract:
> > << """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
> > mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of
> Liberation"). The 5
> > include
> > BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to
> Dhamma talks,
> > giving
> > Dhamma
> > talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), &
> reflecting
> > systematically on
> > Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize
> reality (=
> > Dhamma) &
> > release itself from clinging during any of these
> > activities""""" >>
> > 
> > There is some similarity but one really has to
> read and study
> > the entire
> > sutta which is hard to sum up briefly. But here
> are some of
> > the basic points
> > from Rhys Davids' DN 33 translation:
> > 
> > 1. when a Master or a reverend fellow disciple
> teaches the
> > Norm to a brother
> > . . .
> > 2. while he himself teaching others the Norm in
> detail . . .
> > 3. when he is reciting the doctrines of the Norm
> in detail . .
> > .
> > 4. when he applies his thought to the Norm . . .
> > 5. when he has well grasped some given clue
> (nimitta) to
> > concentration,
> > has well applied his understanding, has well
> thought it
> > out, has well
> > penetrated it by intuition (pa~n~naa) . . .
> > 
> > I tried reading the Pali original with com. and
> subcom. and
> > find it a
> > difficult sutta to understand clearly. All five
> ayatanas seem
> > to involve
> > samadhi and attainment of arahattaphala. aayatana
> is
> > understood to mean
> > efficient cause (kaara.na) acc. to com.
> > 
> > I hope this will be of some help until you get a
> hold of your
> > books in NZ.
> > 
> > Mike, you wrote: << So I'm off-base looking for
> ayana (nt.
> > path) for
> > 'avenue' rather than aayatana? >>
> > 
> > Yes, I'm afraid you're off-base here but I can see
> how you
> > might associate
> > 'avenue' with 'way' (ayana as in ekaayana).
> aayatana has been
> > translated in
> > so many different ways that it makes it a hard one
> to
> > translate. You can
> > find the Vimutti Sutta at G.S. iii 15ff. Thanks
> for your
> > input.
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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212
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 0:39am
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    dear Mike,
I think if we see aayatana in this case as meaning efficient
cause or condition and avenue as the road or path then the
meaning is sort of similar. When we want to get somewhere we
take this road or that road- without the road no way to get
there. Avenue is a fairly unliteral translation though from
what Jim has given us.
I would love more about the sutta and commenataries. MAN do we
need more Pali scholars. 
robert
--- "m. nease" <mlnease@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks also, Jim and Robert, 
> 
> Have I missed something (I've just skimmed this so
> maybe I have) but where does the original question re.
> 'avenues' come in? I can't find a connection between
> aayatanaa and avenues.
> 
> Thanks in advance, 
> 
> mike
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> > JIM,
> > This is really helpful. I hate to be a cause of work
> > for you but
> > really this is a very interesting sutta. The
> > definition of
> > aayatana as efficient cause in this case is very
> > useful.
> > thanks
> > robert
> > 
> > --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > Dear Robert, (Mike, see at the end)
> > > 
> > > >Dear Jim.
> > > >Thanks Jim.
> > > >I checked metta.lk - it is one of the few digha
> > suttas NOT
> > > translated
> > > >and they have not yrt translated the anguttara at
> > all.
> > > >Also accesstoinsight have neither the digha or
> > the anguttara
> > > >translation.
> > > >I have the patisambhidhimagga translation but
> > that is too
> > > terse!
> > > >
> > > >However, do not worry about it as soon i will be
> > in new
> > > zealnd and
> > > >will pick up my copies of these volumes. At least
> > now thanks
> > > to you
> > > >and teng kee i know exactly where to look.
> > > >Just one question - does the letter extract I
> > posted give an
> > > accurate
> > > >representation of the sutta and the 5
> > vimuttiayatana or not?
> > > >'yes' 'no' or 'sort of' will do fine.
> > > >thanks
> > > >robert
> > > 
> > > Here's the extract:
> > > << """ the Anguttara-Nikaya that
> > > mentions 5 VIMUTTI-AYATANA ("Avenues of
> > Liberation"). The 5
> > > include
> > > BHAVANA (meditation) along with listening to
> > Dhamma talks,
> > > giving
> > > Dhamma
> > > talks, reciting Dhamma (e.g. chanting), &
> > reflecting
> > > systematically on
> > > Dhamma. The meaning is that the mind can realize
> > reality (=
> > > Dhamma) &
> > > release itself from clinging during any of these
> > > activities""""" >>
> > > 
> > > There is some similarity but one really has to
> > read and study
> > > the entire
> > > sutta which is hard to sum up briefly. But here
> > are some of
> > > the basic points
> > > from Rhys Davids' DN 33 translation:
> > > 
> > > 1. when a Master or a reverend fellow disciple
> > teaches the
> > > Norm to a brother
> > > . . .
> > > 2. while he himself teaching others the Norm in
> > detail . . .
> > > 3. when he is reciting the doctrines of the Norm
> > in detail . .
> > > .
> > > 4. when he applies his thought to the Norm . . .
> > > 5. when he has well grasped some given clue
> > (nimitta) to
> > > concentration,
> > > has well applied his understanding, has well
> > thought it
> > > out, has well
> > > penetrated it by intuition (pa~n~naa) . . .
> > > 
> > > I tried reading the Pali original with com. and
> > subcom. and
> > > find it a
> > > difficult sutta to understand clearly. All five
> > ayatanas seem
> > > to involve
> > > samadhi and attainment of arahattaphala. aayatana
> > is
> > > understood to mean
> > > efficient cause (kaara.na) acc. to com.
> > > 
> > > I hope this will be of some help until you get a
> > hold of your
> > > books in NZ.
> > > 
> > > Mike, you wrote: << So I'm off-base looking for
> > ayana (nt.
> > > path) for
> > > 'avenue' rather than aayatana? >>
> > > 
> > > Yes, I'm afraid you're off-base here but I can see
> > how you
> > > might associate
> > > 'avenue' with 'way' (ayana as in ekaayana).
> > aayatana has been
> > > translated in
> > > so many different ways that it makes it a hard one
> > to
> > > translate. You can
> > > find the Vimutti Sutta at G.S. iii 15ff. Thanks
> > for your
> > > input.
> > > 
> > > Best wishes,
> > > Jim
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
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> > 
> 
> 
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213
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 9:27pm
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Dear Nina,

>> 1. 6. 1.
>> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi
>> upakkili.t.tha.m.
>N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by
>oncoming defilements.
>
>>ta.m assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuuta.m nappajaanaati.
>N:The ordinary person who has not learned (the Dhamma, not listened to it)
>does not understand it as it really is.
>> tasmaa assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa natthiiti vadaamiiti.
>N:Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who has not listened there
>is no mental development (literally. free: the ordinary person who has
>not listened to the Dhamma has not developed the mind.)
>
>> 1. 6. 2.
>> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi
>> vippamutta.m.
>N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released from
>oncoming defilements.
>>ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
>N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
>>tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
>N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the mind.

As far as the grammar goes I couldn't find much wrong in your translation. I
would encourage more consistency in sentence structure. Compare:
"Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who has not listened there
is no mental development." with the last line of the second sutta. The com.
interprets "cittabhaavanaa" as "citta.t.t.hiti cittapariggaho".

>Remarks: sutavaa seems to be from sutavant, just like mahaa from mahavant.
>Ta~nca: a niggahita before the c. Aagantuka: who has arrived, a visitor.

sutavaa is indeed from the stem 'sutavant'. sutavaa is the form for the
masc. sing. nom. and sutavato is the gen. (or dat.) form. It is declined
like 'bhagavaa'. 'mahaa' is somewhat similarly declined but belongs to a
different group which has the nom. sing. form 'maha.m' unlike 'sutavaa'. I
don't think there is a stem 'mahavant'. You probably mean 'mahant'.

'aagantuka' is used in the sutta as an adj according to the CPD which gives
the following meanings: 3) external, accessory, adventitious, accidental,
incidental. I think oncoming or incoming is better.

The
>upakilesas, defilements arising with the citta (different from the
anusayas,
>latent tendencies who do not arise with the akusala citta but can condition
>akusala), are like visitors from outside. It seems disturbing, but we have
>to note: the ariyan knows the citta as it really is: yathaabutta. One has
to
>know also akusala citta as it is, otherwise one cannot become an ariyan,
>this is stressed in this short sutta.
>Yathaabhuuta: bhuuta: that which has grown, is, exists, the truth.
>yathaabhuuta: in its real essence, according to the truth.
>vippamutta: pamu~ncati: to release. The prefix vip is usually a negation,
>but what is it here?

I'm not quite sure and the meaning of 'pa' has to be considered with 'vi' as
well. Although there are only 20 prefixes (upasaggas) in Pali it can be
difficult to know which of many meanings is applicable. In the
Abhidhanapadipika 19 meanings are given for 'vi' alone while the Saddaniti
gives 7 and PED gives 4. eg.

vi (19)
1171. vividhaatisayaabhaavabhusattissariyaaccaye;
viyoge kalahe paatubhaave bhaase ca kucchane.
1172. duuraanabhimukhatthesu mohaanava.t.thitiisu ca;
padhaanadakkhataakhedasahatthaado vi dissati.

I have separated the meanings in the verses as follows:
vividhe atisaye abhaave bhusatte issariye accaye viyoge kalahe paatubhaave
bhaase kucchane duure anabhimukhe mohe anava.t.thitiya.m padhaane
dakkhataaya.m khede sahatthe (all ending in loc. sing.)

The commentaries for the Tipitaka occasionally give the meaning of a prefix
found in a specific word but can be hard to locate. Fortunately, after a
quick search I found in the Mahatika of the
Visuddhimagga: "visesato pamutta.m" for vippamutta.m. The Saddaniti gives
'visese' (distinction) as one of the 7 meanings of 'vi' with 2 examples:
vimutti & visi.t.tho. We would then have to try and locate the meaning of
'pa' with the root 'muc'. It seems that there must be some difference in
meaning between vippamutta and vimutta despite the dictionary treating both
as having the same meaning. For all we know 'vippamutta' might mean
'distinctly separate' instead of 'released'.

Thank you for your comments and quotes about the bhavangacitta. After
reading them and studying the two suttas above I think I can understand the
bhavangacitta a little better now. I take it that the luminous mind is also
found in beings of the peta, animal, and hell realms.

I have copied and pasted the Pali com. and subcom. for these two suttas and
the two previous ones (AN I.49-52). If you or anyone else would like to
receive a copy for further study please let me know. It's already converted
to the email format. I thought it too lengthy to post directly to psg.

Best wishes,
Jim


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214
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Dear Mike,

>Have I missed something (I've just skimmed this so
>maybe I have) but where does the original question re.
>'avenues' come in? I can't find a connection between
>aayatanaa and avenues.

After taking another look, I think the translation of 'avenues' for
aayatanani is probably off-base. I couldn't find anything in CPD, PED, or
Buddhadatta's dictionary to support 'avenues'. If we take the commentarial
meaning of 'kaara.naani' we should choose a word like grounds, bases,
causes, conditions, or occasions. It appears that there are 3 ways to derive
'aayatana': 1) pref. aa + root yat + affix ana; 2) pref. aa + root i + root
tan + a; 3) pref. aa + yat + a + na (from root nii - to lead). I'm not sure
why the translator chose 'avenues' and one can only make guesses. It should
be noted that path (magga) can be taken as a cause or condition as in the
ariyan 8-fold path being the condition for the cessation of dukkha. Maybe
the translator was thinking of the Vimuttimagga.

best wishes,
Jim



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215
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Dear Jim,
I was wondering if the translator was thinking of the ayatana as
sense bases - which are also 'doors' and thus came up with the
idea of avenue. 
Of course always better to go with the commentary and since
there was a definition there I wonder why they didn't simply
follow it.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> 
> >Have I missed something (I've just skimmed this so
> >maybe I have) but where does the original question re.
> >'avenues' come in? I can't find a connection between
> >aayatanaa and avenues.
> 
> After taking another look, I think the translation of
> 'avenues' for
> aayatanani is probably off-base. I couldn't find anything in
> CPD, PED, or
> Buddhadatta's dictionary to support 'avenues'. If we take the
> commentarial
> meaning of 'kaara.naani' we should choose a word like grounds,
> bases,
> causes, conditions, or occasions. It appears that there are 3
> ways to derive
> 'aayatana': 1) pref. aa + root yat + affix ana; 2) pref. aa +
> root i + root
> tan + a; 3) pref. aa + yat + a + na (from root nii - to lead).
> I'm not sure
> why the translator chose 'avenues' and one can only make
> guesses. It should
> be noted that path (magga) can be taken as a cause or
> condition as in the
> ariyan 8-fold path being the condition for the cessation of
> dukkha. Maybe
> the translator was thinking of the Vimuttimagga.
> 
> best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
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216
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 7:06am
Subject: Re: Re: Anyobody know this sutta?

 
    Dear Jim and Robert,

Just a curiosity at this point, I guess. Seems that
'bases' or 'grounds' would have been fine. Still not
the strangest (or most misleading) translation I've
run across--'name and form' for nama and rupa, for
example(!). Thanks for the hard look.

mike

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> I was wondering if the translator was thinking of
> the ayatana as
> sense bases - which are also 'doors' and thus came
> up with the
> idea of avenue. 
> Of course always better to go with the commentary
> and since
> there was a definition there I wonder why they
> didn't simply
> follow it.
> robert
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > Dear Mike,
> > 
> > >Have I missed something (I've just skimmed this
> so
> > >maybe I have) but where does the original
> question re.
> > >'avenues' come in? I can't find a connection
> between
> > >aayatanaa and avenues.
> > 
> > After taking another look, I think the translation
> of
> > 'avenues' for
> > aayatanani is probably off-base. I couldn't find
> anything in
> > CPD, PED, or
> > Buddhadatta's dictionary to support 'avenues'. If
> we take the
> > commentarial
> > meaning of 'kaara.naani' we should choose a word
> like grounds,
> > bases,
> > causes, conditions, or occasions. It appears that
> there are 3
> > ways to derive
> > 'aayatana': 1) pref. aa + root yat + affix ana; 2)
> pref. aa +
> > root i + root
> > tan + a; 3) pref. aa + yat + a + na (from root nii
> - to lead).
> > I'm not sure
> > why the translator chose 'avenues' and one can
> only make
> > guesses. It should
> > be noted that path (magga) can be taken as a cause
> or
> > condition as in the
> > ariyan 8-fold path being the condition for the
> cessation of
> > dukkha. Maybe
> > the translator was thinking of the Vimuttimagga.
> > 
> > best wishes,
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
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> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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217
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 7:51am
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Hi,
I always thinking what kind of bhavanga I am in.Among
the eight vipaka and also which bhavanga is buddha
in.i do not think peta ,hell have the luminous
bhavanga like us since they have the other inferior
vipaka bhavanga. 




--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
> 
> >> 1. 6. 1.
> >> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho
> aagantukehi upakkilesehi
> >> upakkili.t.tha.m.
> >N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it
> is indeed corrupted by
> >oncoming defilements.
> >
> >>ta.m assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuuta.m
> nappajaanaati.
> >N:The ordinary person who has not learned (the
> Dhamma, not listened to it)
> >does not understand it as it really is.
> >> tasmaa assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa
> natthiiti vadaamiiti.
> >N:Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who
> has not listened there
> >is no mental development (literally. free: the
> ordinary person who has
> >not listened to the Dhamma has not developed the
> mind.)
> >
> >> 1. 6. 2.
> >> pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho
> aagantukehi upakkilesehi
> >> vippamutta.m.
> >N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it
> is indeed released from
> >oncoming defilements.
> >>ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m
> pajaanaati.
> >N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it
> really is.
> >>tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa
> atthiiti vadaamiiti.
> >N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple
> has developed the mind.
> 
> As far as the grammar goes I couldn't find much
> wrong in your translation. I
> would encourage more consistency in sentence
> structure. Compare:
> "Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who
> has not listened there
> is no mental development." with the last line of the
> second sutta. The com.
> interprets "cittabhaavanaa" as "citta.t.t.hiti
> cittapariggaho".
> 
> >Remarks: sutavaa seems to be from sutavant, just
> like mahaa from mahavant.
> >Ta~nca: a niggahita before the c. Aagantuka: who
> has arrived, a visitor.
> 
> sutavaa is indeed from the stem 'sutavant'. sutavaa
> is the form for the
> masc. sing. nom. and sutavato is the gen. (or dat.)
> form. It is declined
> like 'bhagavaa'. 'mahaa' is somewhat similarly
> declined but belongs to a
> different group which has the nom. sing. form
> 'maha.m' unlike 'sutavaa'. I
> don't think there is a stem 'mahavant'. You probably
> mean 'mahant'.
> 
> 'aagantuka' is used in the sutta as an adj according
> to the CPD which gives
> the following meanings: 3) external, accessory,
> adventitious, accidental,
> incidental. I think oncoming or incoming is better.
> 
> The
> >upakilesas, defilements arising with the citta
> (different from the
> anusayas,
> >latent tendencies who do not arise with the akusala
> citta but can condition
> >akusala), are like visitors from outside. It seems
> disturbing, but we have
> >to note: the ariyan knows the citta as it really
> is: yathaabutta. One has
> to
> >know also akusala citta as it is, otherwise one
> cannot become an ariyan,
> >this is stressed in this short sutta.
> >Yathaabhuuta: bhuuta: that which has grown, is,
> exists, the truth.
> >yathaabhuuta: in its real essence, according to the
> truth.
> >vippamutta: pamu~ncati: to release. The prefix vip
> is usually a negation,
> >but what is it here?
> 
> I'm not quite sure and the meaning of 'pa' has to be
> considered with 'vi' as
> well. Although there are only 20 prefixes
> (upasaggas) in Pali it can be
> difficult to know which of many meanings is
> applicable. In the
> Abhidhanapadipika 19 meanings are given for 'vi'
> alone while the Saddaniti
> gives 7 and PED gives 4. eg.
> 
> vi (19)
> 1171. vividhaatisayaabhaavabhusattissariyaaccaye;
> viyoge kalahe paatubhaave bhaase ca
> kucchane.
> 1172. duuraanabhimukhatthesu mohaanava.t.thitiisu
> ca;
> padhaanadakkhataakhedasahatthaado vi
> dissati.
> 
> I have separated the meanings in the verses as
> follows:
> vividhe atisaye abhaave bhusatte issariye accaye
> viyoge kalahe paatubhaave
> bhaase kucchane duure anabhimukhe mohe
> anava.t.thitiya.m padhaane
> dakkhataaya.m khede sahatthe (all ending in loc.
> sing.)
> 
> The commentaries for the Tipitaka occasionally give
> the meaning of a prefix
> found in a specific word but can be hard to locate.
> Fortunately, after a
> quick search I found in the Mahatika of the
> Visuddhimagga: "visesato pamutta.m" for
> vippamutta.m. The Saddaniti gives
> 'visese' (distinction) as one of the 7 meanings of
> 'vi' with 2 examples:
> vimutti & visi.t.tho. We would then have to try and
> locate the meaning of
> 'pa' with the root 'muc'. It seems that there must
> be some difference in
> meaning between vippamutta and vimutta despite the
> dictionary treating both
> as having the same meaning. For all we know
> 'vippamutta' might mean
> 'distinctly separate' instead of 'released'.
> 
> Thank you for your comments and quotes about the
> bhavangacitta. After
> reading them and studying the two suttas above I
> think I can understand the
> bhavangacitta a little better now. I take it that
> the luminous mind is also
> found in beings of the peta, animal, and hell
> realms.
> 
> I have copied and pasted the Pali com. and subcom.
> for these two suttas and
> the two previous ones (AN I.49-52). If you or anyone
> else would like to
> receive a copy for further study please let me know.
> It's already converted
> to the email format. I thought it too lengthy to
> post directly to psg.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
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> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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218
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:08pm
Subject: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Thank you for the interesting remarks. I shall study the many meanings of
vi. Later on I had thought also that vi would reinforce: pamutta.m, in the
sense of: completely away from.
cittabhaavanaa: establishment of citta, cittapariggaho: what citta acquires?
And that should be pa~n~naa.
Also animals, petas and those in hell have rebirth-consciousness,
bhavangacitta, cuticitta, and cittas experiencing objects in processes.
During bhavangacittas no upakilesas, but their bhavangacitta experiences an
unpleasant object, throughout life. I do not dare to make any statement of
that type of bhavanga-citta being luminous.
I would like very much the Pali com and subcom that you offered, if it is
not too much trouble. Thank you very much, Nina.
 
 
219
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:01pm
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

>Hi,
>I always thinking what kind of bhavanga I am in.Among
>the eight vipaka and also which bhavanga is buddha
>in.i do not think peta ,hell have the luminous
>bhavanga like us since they have the other inferior
>vipaka bhavanga.

It appears that my comment about luminous bhavangacitta for beings of the
lower realms has raised a few eyebrows. I understand that 19 types of cittas
can function as bhavangacittas and are either accompanied by upekkha or
somanassa and all are free of defilements. So to my way of thinking that
would make them all pure and hence luminous (metaphorically). There is just
one type of bhavangacitta for beings of the lower realms which is no. 56.
Just as akusala cittas can follow luminous bhavangacittas, so it seems that
luminous bhavangacittas can follow akusala cittas.

Jim


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220
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 3:37am
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Dear Jim and Teng Kee,

I have checked with one of the foundation experts who has confirmed 
what Jim has explained below; all citta that function as bhavanga 
citta, no matter in which world, are not involved in the vithi citta 
processes of the senses, and therefore no kilesa arise in that instant 
of citta. Although it is also said that in the hell worlds the 
bhavanga rarely arises because there could be no sleep because of the 
intense suffering, all bhavanga citta that arise between the vithi are 
still pure, 'pandara'. 

Anumodana with all your studies, as well as your sharing,

Amara


--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Teng Kee,
> 
> >Hi,
> >I always thinking what kind of bhavanga I am in.Among
> >the eight vipaka and also which bhavanga is buddha
> >in.i do not think peta ,hell have the luminous
> >bhavanga like us since they have the other inferior
> >vipaka bhavanga.
> 
> It appears that my comment about luminous bhavangacitta for beings 
of the
> lower realms has raised a few eyebrows. I understand that 19 types 
of cittas
> can function as bhavangacittas and are either accompanied by upekkha 
or
> somanassa and all are free of defilements. So to my way of thinking 
that
> would make them all pure and hence luminous (metaphorically). There 
is just
> one type of bhavangacitta for beings of the lower realms which is 
no. 56.
> Just as akusala cittas can follow luminous bhavangacittas, so it 
seems that
> luminous bhavangacittas can follow akusala cittas.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
221
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:20am
Subject: Re: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Dear Amara,
thanks for this. I was wondering about this matter ever since
Jim mentioned it . I thought teng kee had a good point about the
akusala vipaka that conditions the bhavanga citta in lower
realms but it also seems that the texts don't make the
distinction (about being luminous) based on plane of birth. Is
luminous the translation of pandara?
robert
--- Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear Jim and Teng Kee,
> 
> I have checked with one of the foundation experts who has
> confirmed 
> what Jim has explained below; all citta that function as
> bhavanga 
> citta, no matter in which world, are not involved in the vithi
> citta 
> processes of the senses, and therefore no kilesa arise in that
> instant 
> of citta. Although it is also said that in the hell worlds
> the 
> bhavanga rarely arises because there could be no sleep because
> of the 
> intense suffering, all bhavanga citta that arise between the
> vithi are 
> still pure, 'pandara'. 
> 
> Anumodana with all your studies, as well as your sharing,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dear Teng Kee,
> > 
> > >Hi,
> > >I always thinking what kind of bhavanga I am in.Among
> > >the eight vipaka and also which bhavanga is buddha
> > >in.i do not think peta ,hell have the luminous
> > >bhavanga like us since they have the other inferior
> > >vipaka bhavanga.
> > 
> > It appears that my comment about luminous bhavangacitta for
> beings 
> of the
> > lower realms has raised a few eyebrows. I understand that 19
> types 
> of cittas
> > can function as bhavangacittas and are either accompanied by
> upekkha 
> or
> > somanassa and all are free of defilements. So to my way of
> thinking 
> that
> > would make them all pure and hence luminous
> (metaphorically). There 
> is just
> > one type of bhavangacitta for beings of the lower realms
> which is 
> no. 56.
> > Just as akusala cittas can follow luminous bhavangacittas,
> so it 
> seems that
> > luminous bhavangacittas can follow akusala cittas.
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 


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222
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:56am
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Dear Jim,
I am not following the sutta and com in here when i
said the animal,hell will not have luminous bhavanga.I
was talking about that it will be harder for
cittavithi of kusala javana spring from their
bhavanga.Buddhaghosa said in this sutta bhavanga is
like mother/teacher while the cittavithi of
kusala/akusala javana arise later will be like son
etc.
But the javana of cittavithi for anyone will arise
unless he is dead soon after rebirth.That make this
sutta a bit useless because pabhasara just nothing
more than purely for correcting mahayana school of no
such things as bhavanga,same pure mind for everyone
etc.Our 8 kinds bhavanga will not be the same for
everyone .Pabhasara means no thought occur at that
time because a child cannot do much thnking at that
time?
We must know in Vibhanga com of dupanna for people
with poorer bhavanga(without knowledge
type,prompted).That comment will be helpful for us
because not everyone has the same bhavanga.The
bhavanga we get after our rebirth will be our personal
behaviour,character etc.akusala javana of cittavithi
will always occur for those poor bhavanga people.
(abhidanapadipika gave 20 upassaga not 19.Maybe you
misread ni and nii as one only)


- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Teng Kee,
> 
> >Hi,
> >I always thinking what kind of bhavanga I am
> in.Among
> >the eight vipaka and also which bhavanga is
> buddha
> >in.i do not think peta ,hell have the luminous
> >bhavanga like us since they have the other inferior
> >vipaka bhavanga.
> 
> It appears that my comment about luminous
> bhavangacitta for beings of the
> lower realms has raised a few eyebrows. I understand
> that 19 types of cittas
> can function as bhavangacittas and are either
> accompanied by upekkha or
> somanassa and all are free of defilements. So to my
> way of thinking that
> would make them all pure and hence luminous
> (metaphorically). There is just
> one type of bhavangacitta for beings of the lower
> realms which is no. 56.
> Just as akusala cittas can follow luminous
> bhavangacittas, so it seems that
> luminous bhavangacittas can follow akusala cittas.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 






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223
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:12am
Subject: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> thanks for this. I was wondering about this matter ever since
> Jim mentioned it . I thought teng kee had a good point about the
> akusala vipaka that conditions the bhavanga citta in lower
> realms but it also seems that the texts don't make the
> distinction (about being luminous) based on plane of birth. Is
> luminous the translation of pandara?
> robert


Dear Robert

I think we had better ask Jim, Nina and Tadao about this, but 
according to the SPD pandara means purity, but our experts will 
certainly have much more to say,

Amara






> --- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Jim and Teng Kee,
> > 
> > I have checked with one of the foundation experts who has
> > confirmed 
> > what Jim has explained below; all citta that function as
> > bhavanga 
> > citta, no matter in which world, are not involved in the vithi
> > citta 
> > processes of the senses, and therefore no kilesa arise in that
> > instant 
> > of citta. Although it is also said that in the hell worlds
> > the 
> > bhavanga rarely arises because there could be no sleep because
> > of the 
> > intense suffering, all bhavanga citta that arise between the
> > vithi are 
> > still pure, 'pandara'. 
> > 
> > Anumodana with all your studies, as well as your sharing,
> > 
> > Amara
> > 
> > 
> > --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Dear Teng Kee,
> > > 
> > > >Hi,
> > > >I always thinking what kind of bhavanga I am in.Among
> > > >the eight vipaka and also which bhavanga is buddha
> > > >in.i do not think peta ,hell have the luminous
> > > >bhavanga like us since they have the other inferior
> > > >vipaka bhavanga.
> > > 
> > > It appears that my comment about luminous bhavangacitta for
> > beings 
> > of the
> > > lower realms has raised a few eyebrows. I understand that 19
> > types 
> > of cittas
> > > can function as bhavangacittas and are either accompanied by
> > upekkha 
> > or
> > > somanassa and all are free of defilements. So to my way of
> > thinking 
> > that
> > > would make them all pure and hence luminous
> > (metaphorically). There 
> > is just
> > > one type of bhavangacitta for beings of the lower realms
> > which is 
> > no. 56.
> > > Just as akusala cittas can follow luminous bhavangacittas,
> > so it 
> > seems that
> > > luminous bhavangacittas can follow akusala cittas.
> > > 
> > > Jim
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _________________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
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224
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: AN I.51-52, translation

 
    Dear Robert and Amara,

'Luminous' is the translation of 'pabhassara.m'. This is also the same
word used for the last colour of the six-coloured rays emitted by the
Buddha (see Expositor, p.17 where it is translated as 'dazzling').

In Nina's notes to her recent translation she quotes the following passage
from the Atthasalini (Expositor, p. 185-6) explaining pa.n.dara:

<< The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using the
word pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
clear in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the
Bhavanga-citta." >>

pa.n.dara = clear; exceedingly pure = parisuddha. Also, in the same passage
is the luminous mind quote from AN I.49 & 51. I can't seem to make much
sense of the last sentence about the immoral being called pa.n.dara -- and
the river similes.

Jim

>--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
>wrote:
>> Dear Amara,
>> thanks for this. I was wondering about this matter ever since
>> Jim mentioned it . I thought teng kee had a good point about the
>> akusala vipaka that conditions the bhavanga citta in lower
>> realms but it also seems that the texts don't make the
>> distinction (about being luminous) based on plane of birth. Is
>> luminous the translation of pandara?
>> robert
>
>
>Dear Robert
>
>I think we had better ask Jim, Nina and Tadao about this, but
>according to the SPD pandara means purity, but our experts will
>certainly have much more to say,
>
>Amara


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225
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: Re: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Dear Nina,

>Thank you for the interesting remarks. I shall study the many meanings of
>vi. Later on I had thought also that vi would reinforce: pamutta.m, in the
>sense of: completely away from.

Interesting. The Abhidhanappadipika list of 19 meanings of 'vi' seems like
too many to work with and so few examples are offered in its tika. And it
seems to me that the list is duplicating an old Sanskrit one. The Saddaniti,
p. 885 has a much shorter list of 7 meanings which I think would be easier
to work with and seems to fit better with the commentaries:

1. visese (vimutto, visi.t.tho)
2. vividhe (vimati, vicitra.m)
3. viruddhe (vivaado)
4. vigate (vimala.m)
5. aadikamme (vippakata.m)
6. viruupatthe (viruupo)
7. viyoge (vippayutto)

>cittabhaavanaa: establishment of citta, cittapariggaho: what citta
acquires?
>And that should be pa~n~naa.

Agreed. I think this passage from the tika I sent you should help explain
cittapariggaho: "sampayuttadhammehi nissayaaramma.nehi ca saddhi.m
cittassa pariggahasa~n~nitaa vipassanaabhaavanaapi . . ." Citta.t.thiti is
likely related to samathabhaavanaa.

>Also animals, petas and those in hell have rebirth-consciousness,
>bhavangacitta, cuticitta, and cittas experiencing objects in processes.
>During bhavangacittas no upakilesas, but their bhavangacitta experiences an
>unpleasant object, throughout life. I do not dare to make any statement of
>that type of bhavanga-citta being luminous.

It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be able to experience an
unpleasant object because that would entail an accompanying unpleasant
feeling. From my understanding, only somanassa or upekkha feelings can
accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or wrong?

>I would like very much the Pali com and subcom that you offered, if it is
>not too much trouble. Thank you very much, Nina.

I hope you received the file I sent you.

Best wishes,
Jim


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226
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:31pm
Subject: Re: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Dear Jim and Nina,

This question highlights a question I've had since
beginning to read Nina's work--what is it that makes
'an unpleasant object' unpleasant? By that I don't
mean 'vipaka'--I mean intrinsically in the object. 
Probably this is a semantic misunderstanding on my
part.

Thanks in advance,

mike

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:

It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be able to
experience an
unpleasant object because that would entail an
accompanying unpleasant
feeling. From my understanding, only somanassa or
upekkha feelings can
accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or wrong?


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227
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jul 14, 2001 7:49am
Subject: Re: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Dear Jim,
It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience something?
The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same in
8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but it
is passive as mentioned in VM. 




--- "m. nease" <mlnease@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Jim and Nina,
> 
> This question highlights a question I've had since
> beginning to read Nina's work--what is it that makes
> 'an unpleasant object' unpleasant? By that I don't
> mean 'vipaka'--I mean intrinsically in the object. 
> Probably this is a semantic misunderstanding on myof
all kinds are in javana 
> part.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> mike
> 
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be able
> to
> experience an
> unpleasant object because that would entail an
> accompanying unpleasant
> feeling. From my understanding, only somanassa or
> upekkha feelings can
> accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or wrong?
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 



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228
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jul 14, 2001 8:04pm
Subject: Re: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

>Dear Jim,
>It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
>javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
>Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience something?
>The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same in
>8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but it
>is passive as mentioned in VM.

Perhaps by 'passive' you mean 'vipaaka' whereas 'kusala' and 'akusala' would
be considered active (kamma). All 19 bhavangas are vipakas so yes I would
agree with you about the bhavangas being passive if I've understood you
correctly. However, I have to disagree with you about feeling not being in
the bhavangacitta. The Dhammasangani describes each of the vipaakacittas
that can function as a bhavangacitta as being accompanied by feeling. I'd
like to know where in Vism you read that feeling is not in the
bhavangacitta. All these bhavangacittas with the cetasikas can experience
any one of the six arammanas although I think they would have to be past
objects. I'm thinking that present objects could only be experienced through
the doors. You then say "The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same
in . . ." which contradicts your previous comment: "Feeling are in javana
but not bhavangacitta." Have I misunderstood?

Thanks for your previous message which I'm still studying and may comment
on later. You didn't read my earlier message correctly when you wrote:

<< (abhidanapadipika gave 20 upassaga not 19.Maybe you
misread ni and nii as one only) >>

This is what I wrote to Nina:

<< Although there are only 20 prefixes (upasaggas) in Pali it can be
difficult to know which of many meanings is applicable. In the
Abhidhanapadipika 19 meanings are given for 'vi' alone while the Saddaniti
gives 7 and PED gives 4. >>

Actually, I got the '20' from the Saddaniti which turns out to be the same
as in the Abhidhanappadipika. Please feel free to correct any mistake you
see me making. Much appreciated.

Best wishes,
Jim


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229
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Jul 14, 2001 11:55pm
Subject: Re: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

Vedana is one of the 7 sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika that arises 
with all citta without exception, according to the Abhidhamma.

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

--- In palistudy@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
> javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
> Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience something?
> The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same in
> 8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but it
> is passive as mentioned in VM. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Jim and Nina,
> > 
> > This question highlights a question I've had since
> > beginning to read Nina's work--what is it that makes
> > 'an unpleasant object' unpleasant? By that I don't
> > mean 'vipaka'--I mean intrinsically in the object. 
> > Probably this is a semantic misunderstanding on myof
> all kinds are in javana 
> > part.
> > 
> > Thanks in advance,
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be able
> > to
> > experience an
> > unpleasant object because that would entail an
> > accompanying unpleasant
> > feeling. From my understanding, only somanassa or
> > upekkha feelings can
> > accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or wrong?
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
 
 
230
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 0:45am
Subject: Fwd: Re: CSCD US Distributor

 
    --- "R.S. Goenka" <rsgoenka@vsnl.com> wrote:
> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:54:56 +0530
> From: "R.S. Goenka" <rsgoenka@vsnl.com>
> Organization: Vipassana Research Institute
> To: Mike Nease <mlnease@yahoo.com>, Richard Crutcher
> <rick@vrpa.com>
> Subject: Re: CSCD US Distributor
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> The US distributor is Mr Richard Crutcher, whom a
> copy of this email is being
> marksd.
> 
> We will try to check and correct the lonk.
> 
> > Mike Nease wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Sir or Ma'am,
> > 
> > The US distributor listed on your web site seems
> to be obsolete--email
> > messages are returned as 'undeliverable' and there
> is no response to mail to
> > the PO box.
> > 
> > As I live in Seattle (where the PO box is listed)
> I thought I'd check into
> > it. Anything I can do to help? Is there a new US
> distributor?
> > 
> > Anumodanaa,
> > 
> > mike
> 
> -- 
> With Metta,
> Radhe Shyam Goenka
> Vipassana Research Institute, Mumbai, India
> Website: www.vri.dhamma.org

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231
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 3:29am
Subject: To Thai literates,

 
    Khun Pracheun at the foundation has just told me that Acharn Somporn's 
son has collected all of his father's translations and added them to 
an educational site, at this URL: 
<http://www.rajabhat.ac.th/budd/index.htm> 

Anumodana in your studies,

Amara

Dear Jim, and friends,

All the articles and books in the light green window are Thai 
translations mainly of the Abhidhamma, plus related commentaries. The 
last article in the box, (no. 3) is the abhidhamma handbook called 
'dhammapadasangaha', as I read it.

A.
 
 
232
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 3:35am
Subject: Re: To Thai literates,

 
    I forgot to add that there is a link to get the Adove Acrobat Reader 
at the bottom of the page if you don't already have it, in order to 
get the Thai script,

A.

--- In palistudy@y..., "Amara" <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> Khun Pracheun at the foundation has just told me that Acharn 
Somporn's 
> son has collected all of his father's translations and added them 
to 
> an educational site, at this URL: 
> <http://www.rajabhat.ac.th/budd/index.htm> 
> 
> Anumodana in your studies,
> 
> Amara
> 
> Dear Jim, and friends,
> 
> All the articles and books in the light green window are Thai 
> translations mainly of the Abhidhamma, plus related commentaries. 
The 
> last article in the box, (no. 3) is the abhidhamma handbook called 
> 'dhammapadasangaha', as I read it.
> 
> A.
 
 
233
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 7:38am
Subject: Re: corrections AN I.51-52

 
    Dear Jim,
I know I misread you last night about the
prefix.Sorry!
I will like hear what Nina has to say
first.Dhammasangani did not say anything about
bhavanga directly but only from com.If the bhavanga
experience feeling ,it will mean it is not dreamless
.I will Try read VM in the citta part again.
I should say the 4 tiheuka,4 dvihetuka in kusala
javana will be the same in 8 bhavanga, patisandhi as a
human but it will be passive with no more kamma .I
agree with amara that 
in VM give defination for 3 feeling into 89 citta.
You said bhavanga can experience the six aramanna but
i think this is only possible during patisandhi
rebirth like kamma sign,nimmita signs.Isn't that this
is the job of citta vithi in 10 vipaka causeless citta
and in kusala/akusala javana(in door like your said)
How can it be?Bhavanga is only for the javana to
spring up?
-


- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Teng Kee,
> 
> >Dear Jim,
> >It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
> >javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
> >Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience
> something?
> >The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same
> in
> >8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but
> it
> >is passive as mentioned in VM.
> 
> Perhaps by 'passive' you mean 'vipaaka' whereas
> 'kusala' and 'akusala' would
> be considered active (kamma). All 19 bhavangas are
> vipakas so yes I would
> agree with you about the bhavangas being passive if
> I've understood you
> correctly. However, I have to disagree with you
> about feeling not being in
> the bhavangacitta. The Dhammasangani describes each
> of the vipaakacittas
> that can function as a bhavangacitta as being
> accompanied by feeling. I'd
> like to know where in Vism you read that feeling is
> not in the
> bhavangacitta. All these bhavangacittas with the
> cetasikas can experience
> any one of the six arammanas although I think they
> would have to be past
> objects. I'm thinking that present objects could
> only be experienced through
> the doors. You then say "The feeling accompany in
> bhavanga will be the same
> in . . ." which contradicts your previous comment:
> "Feeling are in javana
> but not bhavangacitta." Have I misunderstood?
> 
> Thanks for your previous message which I'm still
> studying and may comment
> on later. You didn't read my earlier message
> correctly when you wrote:
> 
> << (abhidanapadipika gave 20 upassaga not 19.Maybe
> you
> misread ni and nii as one only) >>
> 
> This is what I wrote to Nina:
> 
> << Although there are only 20 prefixes (upasaggas)
> in Pali it can be
> difficult to know which of many meanings is
> applicable. In the
> Abhidhanapadipika 19 meanings are given for 'vi'
> alone while the Saddaniti
> gives 7 and PED gives 4. >>
> 
> Actually, I got the '20' from the Saddaniti which
> turns out to be the same
> as in the Abhidhanappadipika. Please feel free to
> correct any mistake you
> see me making. Much appreciated.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 






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234
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 9:57am
Subject: Re: bhavangacitta

 
    op 14-07-2001 13:49 schreef Ong Teng Kee op ongtkee@yahoo.ca:

> 
> It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
> javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
> Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience something?
> The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same in
> 8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but it
> is passive as mentioned in VM.
> 
> --- "m. nease" <mlnease@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> This question highlights a question I've had since
>> beginning to read Nina's work--what is it that makes
>> 'an unpleasant object' unpleasant? By that I don't
>> mean 'vipaka'--I mean intrinsically in the object.
>> Probably this is a semantic misunderstanding on my of
>> part.
>> 
>> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be able
>> to
>> experience an
>> unpleasant object because that would entail an
>> accompanying unpleasant
>> feeling. From my understanding, only somanassa or
>> upekkha feelings can
>> accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or wrong?
>> 
>> Dear Jim and all,
> 
> Jim is right that only somanassa and upekkh can accompany pa.tisandhicitta,
> bhavangacitta and cuti-citta. This does not mean that the bhavangacitta that
> is akusala vipka cannot experience an unpleasant object, it does so, since
> it is the result of akusala kamma. This does not entail an accompanying
> domanassa vedanaa, which feeling accompanies only the two types of
> dosa-mlacitta. Vipka should be distinguished from akusala citta. The
bhavangacitta 
> is vipkacitta, and, since it is citta it must experience an object, there is
> no citta that does not experience an object. Citta "thinks" of an object
> (cintati), it clearly cognizes an object.
> Seeing arising now is vipkacitta, it experiences either a pleasant object or
> an unpleasant object, but how could we find this out, since vipka is so
> short. There are so many moments of them experiencing objects through the six
> doors. Robert has given examples before, illustrating the many different
> moments of vipka and how difficult to distinguish between them. Seeing is
> accompanied by upekkh, also when the object is unpleasant. Afterwards dosa
> accompanied by unpleasant feeling can arise. Is it important to know whether
> an object is pleasant or unpleasant? Speculation does not help us at this
moment, it has happened already when vipaakacitta has arisen and fallen
away. It matters more whether there is wise
> attention or unwise attention to it. When, in the course of life, the
> vipkacitta that is kyavi~n~naana arises, it is accompanied by either
> dukkhavedanaa or by sukhavedanaa, because the impact is more violent, it is
> not accompanied by upekkhaa. But, these feelings are just vipaaka, they are
> not accompanying kusala citta or akusala citta.
> When akusala kamma produces rebirth in hell, many moments of
> body-consciousness that is akusala vipka are bound to arise, accompanied by
> dukkha vedan that is vipka. And then followed by akusala cittas accompanied
> by domanassa. These arise in processes in the course of life, they are
> different from bhavangacitta.
Thank you very much, Jim, for sending the Co and subco, I shall use these as
my exercises, very interesting. Jon suggested that I would translate the co
and subco about unestablished for dsg, but I feel relieved that you are
working on it. I can use these just as my exercises. Kaara.naa: I thought:
by reason of, thus: because of being unestablished.
 
 
235
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 11:42am
Subject: Re: 'Dear Sir'

 
    Dear Friends,

Khun Amara asked about Sakka's repeated use of 'Dear
Sir' to address the Buddha in an English translation
of Sakkapahasutta (DN21). This seems like a pretty
simple question but I couldn't work it out for sure-- 

Dear Khun Amara,

--- "amara C." <joychay@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Did you find the Pali for 'Dear sir?' Is it
> 'bhante' by any chance?

Bhante is the vocative of bhadanta, meaning venerable,
revered, so something like, 'Venerable (one)!'or
'Revered (one)!' (as a form of address). A synonym
appears to be mahaasaya, also vocative, meaning
honoured, revered, so something like 'Honored (one)'or
'Revered (one)!'.

There are several 'bhante's' in the Pali text at

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/21-sakkapanha-p.htm

Unfortunately my knowledge is so limited that I can't
even be sure I'm on the same paragraph in the English
at 

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/21-sakkapanha-e2-part.htm#1

The Pali's paragraphs are enumerated and so on, but
not so the English--I just get lost.

So I'll refer your question to Jim & Co., for whom I'm
sure this will be elementary.

mike

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236
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:37am
Subject: Re: bhavangacitta

 
    Dear Jim,
I just like to add that Nina did not mention in this
reply about object for bhavanga citta which is very
important.It is gati or kamma nimmita for bhavanga.It
seems Nina no need to mention about vipaka for those
present moment of eye,ear,profitable/unprofitable in
this mail since this mail is about bhavanga.That is a
sure thing about citta vithi.Cuti,patisandhi and
bhavanga citta will have same object after 11 moment
for mind door or 15 moment for 5 door like seeing etc
of uncomplete cittavithi during the rebirth vithi .It
is not through six doors for the bhavanga ,cuti and
patisandhi to experience the object but only their own
types of resultant citta with kamma or gati
nimmita.The 42-49 of vipaka citta like bhavanga are
indeed in six doors for registration function besides
bhavanaga and cuti if this is what you mean in
dhammasagani com.
I think people 4 people reborn with joy feeling as
bhavanga citta will have a more cheerful
personality(inferior?) but the contrast for the other
four upekkha people. 
Teng Kee
--- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> op 14-07-2001 13:49 schreef Ong Teng Kee op
> ongtkee@yahoo.ca:
> 
> > 
> > It seems to me bhavanga is passive .Feeling are in
> > javana but not bhavangacitta. I read this in
> > Visuddhimagga.How can bhavanga experience
> something?
> > The feeling accompany in bhavanga will be the same
> in
> > 8 kusala javana,9 rupa arupa and the other two but
> it
> > is passive as mentioned in VM.
> > 
> > --- "m. nease" <mlnease@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> This question highlights a question I've had
> since
> >> beginning to read Nina's work--what is it that
> makes
> >> 'an unpleasant object' unpleasant? By that I
> don't
> >> mean 'vipaka'--I mean intrinsically in the
> object.
> >> Probably this is a semantic misunderstanding on
> my of
> >> part.
> >> 
> >> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >> 
> >> It seems to me that bhavangacitta would not be
> able
> >> to
> >> experience an
> >> unpleasant object because that would entail an
> >> accompanying unpleasant
> >> feeling. From my understanding, only somanassa
> or
> >> upekkha feelings can
> >> accompany a bhavangacitta. Is this right or
> wrong?
> >> 
> >> Dear Jim and all,
> > 
> > Jim is right that only somanassa and upekkh can
> accompany pa.tisandhicitta,
> > bhavangacitta and cuti-citta. This does not mean
> that the bhavangacitta that
> > is akusala vipka cannot experience an unpleasant
> object, it does so, since
> > it is the result of akusala kamma. This does not
> entail an accompanying
> > domanassa vedanaa, which feeling accompanies only
> the two types of
> > dosa-mlacitta. Vipka should be distinguished
> from akusala citta. The
> bhavangacitta 
> > is vipkacitta, and, since it is citta it must
> experience an object, there is
> > no citta that does not experience an object. Citta
> "thinks" of an object
> > (cintati), it clearly cognizes an object.
> > Seeing arising now is vipkacitta, it experiences
> either a pleasant object or
> > an unpleasant object, but how could we find this
> out, since vipka is so
> > short. There are so many moments of them
> experiencing objects through the six
> > doors. Robert has given examples before,
> illustrating the many different
> > moments of vipka and how difficult to distinguish
> between them. Seeing is
> > accompanied by upekkh, also when the object is
> unpleasant. Afterwards dosa
> > accompanied by unpleasant feeling can arise. Is it
> important to know whether
> > an object is pleasant or unpleasant? Speculation
> does not help us at this
> moment, it has happened already when vipaakacitta
> has arisen and fallen
> away. It matters more whether there is wise
> > attention or unwise attention to it. When, in the
> course of life, the
> > vipkacitta that is kyavi~n~naana arises, it is
> accompanied by either
> > dukkhavedanaa or by sukhavedanaa, because the
> impact is more violent, it is
> > not accompanied by upekkhaa. But, these feelings
> are just vipaaka, they are
> > not accompanying kusala citta or akusala citta.
> > When akusala kamma produces rebirth in hell, many
> moments of
> > body-consciousness that is akusala vipka are
> bound to arise, accompanied by
> > dukkha vedan that is vipka. And then followed
> by akusala cittas accompanied
> > by domanassa. These arise in processes in the
> course of life, they are
> > different from bhavangacitta.
> Thank you very much, Jim, for sending the Co and
> subco, I shall use these as
> my exercises, very interesting. Jon suggested that I
> would translate the co
> and subco about unestablished for dsg, but I feel
> relieved that you are
> working on it. I can use these just as my exercises.
> Kaara.naa: I thought:
> by reason of, thus: because of being unestablished. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 




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237
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2001 9:19am
Subject: Fwd: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali/abhidhamma question

 
    Don't think I've seen Derek here before--thought the
group might find this post interesting:

--- Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com> wrote:

> To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
> From: "Derek Cameron" <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:47:50 -0000
> Reply-to: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: pali/abhidhamma
> question
> 
> > I wonder if sacetanaa is a synonym with
> sankhaara?
> 
> Larry,
> 
> What an interesting question. I've never thought
> about it before. 
> Here's my attempt at an answer.
> 
> Yes, sacetanaa is derived from the prefix sa.m +
> cetanaa. The prefix 
> is an intensifier. It emphasizes the active (i.e.,
> volitional) aspect 
> of cetanaa -- mental reactions as actions, the
> mental equivalent of 
> physical kamma.
> 
> Sankhaara varies in meaning depending on the
> context. In the context 
> of dependent origination sankhaara comes between
> ignorance (avijjaa) 
> and consciousness (viaa.na). So here it is a kind
> of mental 
> predisposition or tendency. I think it was Baba Hari
> Das who once 
> said: "When a pick-pocket looks at a saint, he sees
> only pockets." In 
> other words, our mental predispositions influence
> what perceive.
> 
> However, in other contexts (e.g. the five
> aggregates), the meaning of 
> sankhaara seems to be broader, and includes the
> manifestation of 
> these tendencies in actual mental contents. It's
> sometimes translated 
> as "volitional formations."
> 
> So, the short answer is -- yes, I think sacetanaa
> and sankhaara are 
> very closely related, if not synonyms.
> 
> But perhaps someone else has a better answer than
> me?
> 
> Derek.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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238
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2001 6:49pm
Subject: Re: bhavangacitta

 
    Dear Nina,

> Jim is right that only somanassa and upekkh can accompany
pa.tisandhicitta,
> bhavangacitta and cuti-citta. This does not mean that the bhavangacitta
that
> is akusala vipka cannot experience an unpleasant object, it does so,
since
> it is the result of akusala kamma.

I still find it hard to see how a bhavangacitta can experience an unpleasant
object accompanied by upekkhaa. Perhaps by 'unpleasant object' you mean
'ani.t.thaaramma.na' or undesirable object.

Thanks for your explanations in the remainder of your message.

Nina:
Thank you very much, Jim, for sending the Co and subco, I shall use these as
my exercises, very interesting. Jon suggested that I would translate the co
and subco about unestablished for dsg, but I feel relieved that you are
working on it. I can use these just as my exercises. Kaara.naa: I thought:
by reason of, thus: because of being unestablished.

Jim:
I think you are right here. It appears that the '-kaara.naa' is just to show
a special use of the instrumental case and I think it applies to the whole
phrase ie. 'because of consciousness being unestablished'. I had considered
that possibility from the start but when I saw the subcom. giving a
different use of the instr. (itthambhuutalakkha.na) I then thought
'kaara.naa' had to mean something else and that the com. might be making
some philosophical point which I couldn't comprehend. But why does the com.
give one use while the subcom. gives another? I now think that the com. has
given the use of the two words together in relation to the whole sentence
while the subcom. has given the instrumental relation between
'consciousness' and 'unestablished'. I think your 'being' may be expressing
the subcom. use (itthambhuuta - being this way). The Saddaniti gives the ex.
bhinnena siisena -- 'with a head become broken' or simply 'with a broken
head'.

Best wishes,
Jim


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239
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:58pm
Subject: Re: bhavangacitta

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

>Dear Jim,
>I just like to add that Nina did not mention in this
>reply about object for bhavanga citta which is very
>important.It is gati or kamma nimmita for bhavanga.It
>seems Nina no need to mention about vipaka for those
>present moment of eye,ear,profitable/unprofitable in
>this mail since this mail is about bhavanga.That is a
>sure thing about citta vithi.Cuti,patisandhi and
>bhavanga citta will have same object after 11 moment
>for mind door or 15 moment for 5 door like seeing etc
>of uncomplete cittavithi during the rebirth vithi .It
>is not through six doors for the bhavanga ,cuti and
>patisandhi to experience the object but only their own
>types of resultant citta with kamma or gati
>nimmita.The 42-49 of vipaka citta like bhavanga are
>indeed in six doors for registration function besides
>bhavanaga and cuti if this is what you mean in
>dhammasagani com.
>I think people 4 people reborn with joy feeling as
>bhavanga citta will have a more cheerful
>personality(inferior?) but the contrast for the other
>four upekkha people.
>Teng Kee

Thank-you for this as well as your previous note. I'm afraid I don't know
enough Abhidhamma to understand much of what you say and so I really can't
say much in response. You wondered if the human type with the bhavangacitta
accompanied by joy is inferior to the type with upekkha. I think perhaps the
first grading should be according to ahetuka, dvihetuka, and tihetuka (in
that order with the tihetuka being the best one which can have either
somanassa or upekkhaa feeling). I haven't thought about the grading of the
four in each of the two categories though.

Best wishes,
Jim


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240
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2001 1:23pm
Subject: vi prefix

 
    Translation of Saddaniti's list of vi meanings:
They are ending on e, is this the locative? to be translated as: as?
1:visese, as distinction or attainment: vimutto, freed, visi.t.tho,
distinguished.
2: vividhe, as being diverse: vimati, doubt and vicitra.m, variegated.
Vimati: is it this or that, diverse possibilities for doubt. Correct?
3. viruddhe, as opposed, hostile: vivaado, dispute.
4. vigate, as without, gone away: vimala.m, unstained, without stains.
5. aadikamme, in the beginning: vippakata.m, left unfinished. Meaning: when
you begin you are not finished?
6. viruupatthe, deformed, ugly: viruupo, ugly. Thus, a negative meaning.
7. viyoge, as separation: vippayutto, separated. Thus, away from something.

What about the vi in vipassanaa? Under 2: diverse: seeing (passati) all
kinds of realities as they are? Seeing clearly, was the Bodhisatta vipassii
not so called because he had very clear sight?

I am trying to write about ignorance and the aasava of ignorance
conditioning each other, but I got stuck with the word aparaapara, again and
again? or, previous? Papa`ncasudanii, co to MN 9, Sammaadi.t.thi sutta,
64,65, it is explained : saa aparaaparuppannaaya avijjaaya upanissayapaccaya
hoti. I compared with a translation by Ven Soma, <ignorance born before
should be understood as the canker of ignorance. It becomes the decisive
support condiiton of ignorance born after. Only if you have time, thank you.
Nina.
 
 
241
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:37am
Subject: Re: bhavangacitta

 
    Dear Jim,
It is hard for me to accept Nina for saying bhavanga
experience feeling of joy /upekkha but I take it to
mean kamma /gati nimitta in cuti ,patisandhi and
bhavanga which is like a dead water after
rebirth.Before rebirth kamma nimita can be experienced
feelings like the new bhavanga which he will be having
in a new body.The joy feeling in 4 kusala javana will
surely not be the same in 4 resultant and 4 kiriya
citta.See VM pg.655 in Nyanamoli-paticcasamupada- 32
resultant vedana after salayatana which put the javana
feeling in tanha part for clinging.Here for rebirth to
patisandhi and bhavanga citta in a new body, old mind
door has 8 conditions to the new bhavanga citta which
has nothing to do with 5 doors.
See also Abhidhammatthasangaha tika for various
debates of gati/kamma nimitta in 6 or mind door.


--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Dear Teng Kee,
> 
> >Dear Jim,
> >I just like to add that Nina did not mention in
> this
> >reply about object for bhavanga citta which is very
> >important.It is gati or kamma nimmita for
> bhavanga.It
> >seems Nina no need to mention about vipaka for
> those
> >present moment of eye,ear,profitable/unprofitable
> in
> >this mail since this mail is about bhavanga.That is
> a
> >sure thing about citta vithi.Cuti,patisandhi and
> >bhavanga citta will have same object after 11
> moment
> >for mind door or 15 moment for 5 door like seeing
> etc
> >of uncomplete cittavithi during the rebirth vithi
> .It
> >is not through six doors for the bhavanga ,cuti and
> >patisandhi to experience the object but only their
> own
> >types of resultant citta with kamma or gati
> >nimmita.The 42-49 of vipaka citta like bhavanga are
> >indeed in six doors for registration function
> besides
> >bhavanaga and cuti if this is what you mean in
> >dhammasagani com.
> >I think people 4 people reborn with joy feeling as
> >bhavanga citta will have a more cheerful
> >personality(inferior?) but the contrast for the
> other
> >four upekkha people.
> >Teng Kee
> 
> Thank-you for this as well as your previous note.
> I'm afraid I don't know
> enough Abhidhamma to understand much of what you say
> and so I really can't
> say much in response. You wondered if the human type
> with the bhavangacitta
> accompanied by joy is inferior to the type with
> upekkha. I think perhaps the
> first grading should be according to ahetuka,
> dvihetuka, and tihetuka (in
> that order with the tihetuka being the best one
> which can have either
> somanassa or upekkhaa feeling). I haven't thought
> about the grading of the
> four in each of the two categories though.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 



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242
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Jul 18, 2001 1:09pm
Subject: Re: consciousness unestablished

 
    op 17-07-2001 00:49 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:


> I think you are right here. It appears that the '-kaara.naa' is just to show
> a special use of the instrumental case and I think it applies to the whole
> phrase ie. 'because of consciousness being unestablished'. I had considered
> that possibility from the start but when I saw the subcom. giving a
> different use of the instr. (itthambhuutalakkha.na) I then thought
> 'kaara.naa' had to mean something else and that the com. might be making
> some philosophical point which I couldn't comprehend. But why does the com.
> give one use while the subcom. gives another? I now think that the com. has
> given the use of the two words together in relation to the whole sentence
> while the subcom. has given the instrumental relation between
> 'consciousness' and 'unestablished'. I think your 'being' may be expressing
> the subcom. use (itthambhuuta - being this way). The Saddaniti gives the ex.
> bhinnena siisena -- 'with a head become broken' or simply 'with a broken
> head'.
Nina: After your remarks, I shall try:

With consciousness unestablished the clansman Vakkali passed finally away.

Co: appati.t.t.hitenaati pa.tisandhivi~~naanena appati.t.thitena.

with consciousness <unestablished>, with the rebirth-consciousness not
re-established.

appati.t.thikaara.naa ti attho.
because of being unestablished, is the meaning.

subco: appati.thitenaa ti patit.tha.m alabhantena.

<by being unestablished>, by not obtaining establishment (literally:
established). 

itthambhuutalakkhane eta.m kara.navacana.m, anuppattidhammenaa ti attho.

This wording gives the reason that consciousness has this kind of
characteristic, that it has the nature of no rebirth. This is the meaning.

Sati hi uppaade pati.t.thita.m naama siyaa, a.t.thakathaaya.m pana yadeva
tassa vi~n~naan.nassa appati.t.thaanakaara.na.m, tadeva
parinibbaanakaara.nan ti vutta.m appati.t.thitakaara.naa ti.

If there would be rebirth, it would indeed be established, but in the
commentary the condition of no foundation is stated, in so far as it is the
condition of the final passing away, thus the condition for being
unestablished. 

Remarks: I thought that in translation the yad and tad should better be
turned around, just as yena...tena... I was not sure whether the vutta.m
refers to the preceding or following. Nina.
 
 
243
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:10am
Subject: Re: vi prefix

 
    Dear members -- I'm pleased to announce that Gayan has just joined our
group. Welcome to psg, Gayan!

Dear Nina,

>Translation of Saddaniti's list of vi meanings:
>They are ending on e, is this the locative? to be translated as: as?

Yes, all those 'e' endings belong to the singular locative. Personally, I'd
translate this relation as 'with reference to' or 'in'.

>1:visese, as distinction or attainment: vimutto, freed, visi.t.tho,
>distinguished.

I made a mistake in giving 'vimutto' instead of the 'vimutti' given by the
Saddaniti, but the meaning of the 'vi' is still the same.

>2: vividhe, as being diverse: vimati, doubt and vicitra.m, variegated.
>Vimati: is it this or that, diverse possibilities for doubt. Correct?

Not sure. Perhaps the following from the Abhidhanappadipika might
help: vividhenaakaarena ma~n~nati yasmaa, saa vimati (abh-t 171)
It is 'vimati' because it thinks in a diversified way.

>3. viruddhe, as opposed, hostile: vivaado, dispute.
>4. vigate, as without, gone away: vimala.m, unstained, without stains.
>5. aadikamme, in the beginning: vippakata.m, left unfinished. Meaning: when
>you begin you are not finished?

CPD: "commencement (of an action)". The prefixes 'aa' and 'pa' also include
this meaning. It refers to an action that has begun but is not yet finished.

>6. viruupatthe, deformed, ugly: viruupo, ugly. Thus, a negative meaning.
>7. viyoge, as separation: vippayutto, separated. Thus, away from something.
>
>What about the vi in vipassanaa? Under 2: diverse: seeing (passati) all
>kinds of realities as they are? Seeing clearly, was the Bodhisatta vipassii
>not so called because he had very clear sight?

The Patisambhidhamagga com. gives the following interpretation of
'vipassanaa': "Aniccataadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamme passatii ti
vipassanaa." -- p.125
'It sees realities in various aspects by way of impermanence and so on.'

The Buddhava.msa com. gives the following etymologies for the Buddha
Vipassii: visuddha.m passati; viva.tehi vaa akkhiihi passati; viceyya
viceyya passati. Horner translates: he sees what is pure . . . and he sees
with broad [I think this should be 'open'] eyes . . . constantly
investigating he sees. -- p.337

Understanding how the prefixes function in words can be difficult and that
kind of information is often not easy to find in the commentaries and
dictionaries (regarding specific words). I don't know of any textbook or
treatise that deals with them in a comprehensive way.

> I am trying to write about ignorance and the aasava of ignorance
>conditioning each other, but I got stuck with the word aparaapara, again
>and again? or, previous? Papa`ncasudanii, co to MN 9, Sammaadi.t.thi
>sutta, 64,65, it is explained : saa aparaaparuppannaaya avijjaaya
upanissayapaccaya
>hoti. I compared with a translation by Ven Soma, <ignorance born before
>should be understood as the canker of ignorance. It becomes the decisive
>support condiiton of ignorance born after. Only if you have time, thank
>you. Nina.

The full text for Soma's translation is:

Pubbuppannaa c'ettha avijjaa avijjaasavo ti veditabbo. saa
aparaaparuppannaaya avijjaaya upanissayapaccayo hoti. -- MA i 223-4

pubbuppannaa is 'born before' and aparaaparupannaa is 'born after'. For the
latter the CPD gives: 'subsequently arisen' and says that it is the opposite
of pubbuppanna. Under 'aparaapara' it gives: 'another and another; various;
ever; following'. For the indeclinable 'aparaapara.m' it gives for 3):
subsequently, gradually, by and by, indirectly.

I don't quite understand the reason for having a double 'apara' before
'uppanna' while there is only one 'pubba' before 'uppanna'. DAT states
something similar for dit.t.hi: purimuppannaa di.t.thiyo
aparaaparuppannaana.m di.t.thiina.m apassayaa hontii ti di.t.thiyo va
di.t.thinissayaa ti vutta.m. -- DAT iii 124 ad DA 916 (pts).

Best wishes,
Jim



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244
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:31am
Subject: Re: vi prefix

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear members -- I'm pleased to announce that Gayan has just joined 
our
> group. Welcome to psg, Gayan!


Hi! Gayan,

Welcome to the list! Looking forward to your contributions,

Anumodana in your studies, as always,

Amara
 
 
245
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 1:22pm
Subject: Nina's transl. co 49. A.N. I 51

 
    Dear Jim, I just translate very gradually. I realize that the correction may
be too much work for you. Too many problems, starting with navame, locative?
Later on it is dasame. Where does ya.mki~nci belong? The last sentence I did
is very long. I do not mind if you find corections too time consuming,
meanwhile, I am having a good time with these texts. Shall I go on with the
next parts? By the way, did you receive my vi-particles and translation of
with consciousness unestablished? And I just wanted to know the correct
translation of aparaapariya, thank you very much, Nina.
hassaranti pa.n.dara.m parisuddha.m. cittanti
bhava"ngacitta.m. ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti? natthi.

N: As to the ninth (?), luminous. Luminous, pure citta is the
life-continuum. But does this citta have indeed a colourful appearance? No,
it does not have this.

niilaadiina~nhi a~n~natarava.n.na.m vaa hotu ava.n.na.m vaa ya.mki~nci
parisuddhataaya ``pabhassara''nti vuccati.

N: Let there be a blue colour or another colour, or no colour, or whatever
it may be, it is called luminous because of it purity.

idampi nirupakkilesataaya
parisuddhanti pabhassara.m. ta~nca khoti ta.m bhava"ngacitta.m.

N: It is also pure, luminous, because it is unsoiled (by defilements). It is
for sure that life-continuum.

aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi.

N:  by oncoming (defilements). by those that do not accompany it, but
arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana).

upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkili.t.thattaa upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati
vuccati.

N: by defilements. By being soiled by desire etc. it is indeed called
defiled. 

katha.m? yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro
vaa aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaana.m duraacaaraana.m
avattasampannaana.m puttaana~nceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaana~nca vasena
``attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti na
sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii''ti

N: Why is that so? People may be observing morality, and may be provided
with a teacher, but because of bad morality, of bad teachers, of people who
do not do their duty, the parents and the preceptors  do not censure their
own children, their pupils, their co-residents, do not train them, exhort
them, admonish them.
And thus, they acquire a bad appearance and a bad name, and this consequence
should be known.

aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro viya ca
aacariyupajjhaayaa viya ca bhava"ngacitta.m da.t.thabba.m,

N: the lifecontinuum should be seen as those who have a teacher, as parents,
as preceptors,

puttaadiina.m
vasena tesa.m akittilaabho viya javanakkha.ne
rajjanadussanamuyhanasabhaavaana.m lobhasahagataadiina.m cittaana.m vasena
uppannehi aagantukehi upakkilesehi pakatiparisuddhampi bhava"ngacitta.m
upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotiiti.

N: As the acquirement of a bad name for them, through the children etc., at
the moment of impulsion through the cittas accompanied by desire, etc.,
that are of the nature of defilement, corruption and infatuation, such is
the life-continuum, that is by nature pure, indeed soiled, by the oncoming
defilements that have arisen.









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
246
From: Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: vi prefix

 
    dear amara!

Glad to be here,
For the moment I wont be having much to contribute, but as always i will be
howering around collecting bits and pieces from you, to 'upgrade' my
understanding.

=^_^=

missed ur smile :o)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Amara" <joychay@hotmail.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:31 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Re: vi prefix


> --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> > Dear members -- I'm pleased to announce that Gayan has just joined
> our
> > group. Welcome to psg, Gayan!
>
>
> Hi! Gayan,
>
> Welcome to the list! Looking forward to your contributions,
>
> Anumodana in your studies, as always,
>
> Amara
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
 
 
247
From: Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:10pm
Subject: Re: vi prefix

 
    dear jim,

Thanks very much for the welcome,

Looking forward to the study,

rgds

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] vi prefix


> Dear members -- I'm pleased to announce that Gayan has just joined our
> group. Welcome to psg, Gayan!
>
> Dear Nina,
>
> >Translation of Saddaniti's list of vi meanings:
> >They are ending on e, is this the locative? to be translated as: as?
>
> Yes, all those 'e' endings belong to the singular locative. Personally,
I'd
> translate this relation as 'with reference to' or 'in'.
>
> >1:visese, as distinction or attainment: vimutto, freed, visi.t.tho,
> >distinguished.
>
> I made a mistake in giving 'vimutto' instead of the 'vimutti' given by the
> Saddaniti, but the meaning of the 'vi' is still the same.
>
> >2: vividhe, as being diverse: vimati, doubt and vicitra.m, variegated.
> >Vimati: is it this or that, diverse possibilities for doubt. Correct?
>
> Not sure. Perhaps the following from the Abhidhanappadipika might
> help: vividhenaakaarena ma~n~nati yasmaa, saa vimati (abh-t 171)
> It is 'vimati' because it thinks in a diversified way.
>
> >3. viruddhe, as opposed, hostile: vivaado, dispute.
> >4. vigate, as without, gone away: vimala.m, unstained, without stains.
> >5. aadikamme, in the beginning: vippakata.m, left unfinished. Meaning:
when
> >you begin you are not finished?
>
> CPD: "commencement (of an action)". The prefixes 'aa' and 'pa' also
include
> this meaning. It refers to an action that has begun but is not yet
finished.
>
> >6. viruupatthe, deformed, ugly: viruupo, ugly. Thus, a negative meaning.
> >7. viyoge, as separation: vippayutto, separated. Thus, away from
something.
> >
> >What about the vi in vipassanaa? Under 2: diverse: seeing (passati) all
> >kinds of realities as they are? Seeing clearly, was the Bodhisatta
vipassii
> >not so called because he had very clear sight?
>
> The Patisambhidhamagga com. gives the following interpretation of
> 'vipassanaa': "Aniccataadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamme passatii ti
> vipassanaa." -- p.125
> 'It sees realities in various aspects by way of impermanence and so on.'
>
> The Buddhava.msa com. gives the following etymologies for the Buddha
> Vipassii: visuddha.m passati; viva.tehi vaa akkhiihi passati; viceyya
> viceyya passati. Horner translates: he sees what is pure . . . and he sees
> with broad [I think this should be 'open'] eyes . . . constantly
> investigating he sees. -- p.337
>
> Understanding how the prefixes function in words can be difficult and that
> kind of information is often not easy to find in the commentaries and
> dictionaries (regarding specific words). I don't know of any textbook or
> treatise that deals with them in a comprehensive way.
>
> > I am trying to write about ignorance and the aasava of ignorance
> >conditioning each other, but I got stuck with the word aparaapara, again
> >and again? or, previous? Papa`ncasudanii, co to MN 9, Sammaadi.t.thi
> >sutta, 64,65, it is explained : saa aparaaparuppannaaya avijjaaya
> upanissayapaccaya
> >hoti. I compared with a translation by Ven Soma, <ignorance born before
> >should be understood as the canker of ignorance. It becomes the decisive
> >support condiiton of ignorance born after. Only if you have time, thank
> >you. Nina.
>
> The full text for Soma's translation is:
>
> Pubbuppannaa c'ettha avijjaa avijjaasavo ti veditabbo. saa
> aparaaparuppannaaya avijjaaya upanissayapaccayo hoti. -- MA i 223-4
>
> pubbuppannaa is 'born before' and aparaaparupannaa is 'born after'. For
the
> latter the CPD gives: 'subsequently arisen' and says that it is the
opposite
> of pubbuppanna. Under 'aparaapara' it gives: 'another and another;
various;
> ever; following'. For the indeclinable 'aparaapara.m' it gives for 3):
> subsequently, gradually, by and by, indirectly.
>
> I don't quite understand the reason for having a double 'apara' before
> 'uppanna' while there is only one 'pubba' before 'uppanna'. DAT states
> something similar for dit.t.hi: purimuppannaa di.t.thiyo
> aparaaparuppannaana.m di.t.thiina.m apassayaa hontii ti di.t.thiyo va
> di.t.thinissayaa ti vutta.m. -- DAT iii 124 ad DA 916 (pts).
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
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248
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Nina's transl. co 49. A.N. I 51

 
    Dear Nina,

Thank you for your translation of the commentary for AN I.49-50. I will go
over it but it may be awhile before I'll be ready to post my corrections and
comments. It has been very hot and humid in Ontario for the past few days
which has slowed me down. Also, I will be away all next week so I don't
think I'll be working on any messages during that time. There will be times
when I take a long time in responding to messages. Just be patient with me.
I will respond to the first part of your message here:

>Dear Jim, I just translate very gradually. I realize that the correction
may
>be too much work for you. Too many problems, starting with navame,
locative?
>Later on it is dasame.

navame and dasame are in the locative singular like the visese, vividhe,
etc. for the vi prefix. I interpret 'navame' as 'with reference to the ninth
(sutta)'. The commentary for the ninth sutta begins here. The commentaries I
emailed you contain the a.t.thakathaa and .tiikaa for four suttas (AN
I.49-52). So you have to sort out which commentary goes with which sutta.
dasame refers to the tenth and last sutta of the vagga (which normally
contains 10 suttas).

>Where does ya.mki~nci belong?

I think 'ya.mki~nci' belongs to 'ava.n.na.m'. 'ava.n.na.m vaa ya.mki~nci'
might translate as "or anything which is without colour". 'ya.mki~nci' could
also be "whatever" instead of "anything which". I will have a look at the
whole sentence later.

>The last sentence I did
>is very long. I do not mind if you find corections too time consuming,
>meanwhile, I am having a good time with these texts. Shall I go on with the
>next parts? By the way, did you receive my vi-particles and translation of
>with consciousness unestablished? And I just wanted to know the correct
>translation of aparaapariya, thank you very much, Nina. >>

I'm glad you're having a good time with the translation. When I sent you
those passages I wasn't suggesting that you translate them for the list. But
if you're interested you are more than welcome to have a go at them and send
in for comments and corrections. You can continue on with the other parts if
you wish (but you might want to skip the parts on puthujjana). You could
also just try translating what interests you in particular.

I received your two posts on the vi prefix and 'consciousness
unestablished'. I posted my reply to your vi prefix post yesterday. Did you
not receive it? If not, let me know and I will forward you a copy or you can
get a copy by going to the group's message page on the web. I'm just about
to start going over your 'consciousness unestablished' message.

I should point out that I'm not the Pali expert that some seem to think I
am. I'm not at all fluent in Pali and it is still hard and time-consuming
work for me to go through a Pali passage. I just try to do the best I can in
answering Pali questions. And my answers may not necessarily be the correct
ones!

I'm looking forward to carefully reading and commenting on the remaining
part of your message and will report when done.

Jim


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249
From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 7:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: vi prefix

 
    Gayan,

I also look f/w to having you on psg....I know you have a lot of pali
knowledge.

Jim, just a quickie to say I'm really appreciating all the contributions - just
need more time to fully study them!

Tadao and Mike, good to say your active participation here as on dsg.

Thanks,

Sarah 

--- Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> wrote: > dear amara!
> 
> Glad to be here,
> For the moment I wont be having much to contribute, but as always i will be
> howering around collecting bits and pieces from you, to 'upgrade' my
> understanding.
> 
> =^_^=
> 
> missed ur smile :o)


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250
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 0:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: vi prefix

 
    Hi, Sarah and Jonothan:
I would like to say "Thank you" for your guys for having been
setting up such a great Dhamma-Link. I've been enjoying tremendiously
reading/learning many things from the other participants.
I am very pleased that I can discuss Dhamma again in a regular base,
as I used to do in Bangkok.
Thanks again, tadao
 
 
251
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 2:02pm
Subject: interesting grammar.

 
    Dear Jim, I just want to thank you for your explanations, about vi- and
apaarapara. You make the grammar as always very interesting. It is
worthwhile reading it over and over again, Nina.
 
 
252
From: Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Thu Jul 26, 2001 11:37am
Subject: Re: Re: vi prefix

 
    dear sarah,

Thanks very much for the welcome.
Hope u will someday give an 'agatha christie village' style treat for us
too.
:o)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Re: vi prefix


> Gayan,
>
> I also look f/w to having you on psg....I know you have a lot of pali
> knowledge.
>
> Jim, just a quickie to say I'm really appreciating all the contributions -
just
> need more time to fully study them!
>
> Tadao and Mike, good to say your active participation here as on dsg.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sarah
>
> --- Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> wrote: > dear amara!
> >
> > Glad to be here,
> > For the moment I wont be having much to contribute, but as always i will
be
> > howering around collecting bits and pieces from you, to 'upgrade' my
> > understanding.
> >
> > =^_^=
> >
> > missed ur smile :o)
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
 
 
253
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Jul 28, 2001 11:11pm
Subject: new Pali discussion group

 
    Dear Members,

For those who may not already know, there is a new Pali discussion group.
It's home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali

You can subscribe from this page. The moderator is Ong Yong Peng of
Singapore. I think it will turn out to be the most active of the 4 Pali
lists that I'm subscribed to. I recommend this new list to anyone here who
might be interested. Peter Masefield has also subscribed to it and has
already posted several responses.

I'm away from my Pali library and won't be able to work on my replies to two
of Nina's messages until I return later next week from Orillia.

Best wishes,
Jim


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254
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Aug 3, 2001 1:31pm
Subject: pa.tipatti

 
    Dear Jim, In my translation of Khun Sujin's Cambodian Lectures, I am now
stuck with pa.tipatti, we touched on before. It is explained thus: patti:
going to, reaching, and pa.ti: specifically. When sati arises it goes
specifically to the characteristic of a paramattha dhamma that is appearing.

Patti: going or reaching, and pa.ti: towards. I looked it up in PTS dict.
pa.ti patti is used in combination with dhammanudhamma. A way, method,
practice, means of reaching a goal. Pa.tipajjati: follow a path, a method.
Is there another meaning of pa.ti, towards, is there a meaning in it of
"specific"? Or precisely towards? Thank you, Nina.
 
 
255
From: <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:25pm
Subject: Re: paaavuddhisutta.m. (iti)

 
    Hello, Jim,

Please excuse this postscript to an old post.

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
J: The only particles (nipaata) in the sutta are: kho (indeed, 
surely) & iti (end quote).

Just ran across this interesting reference to 'iti':

iti: Adv. (sometimes written as ti) usually a particle, symbolizing 
the end of direct speech (in English that is expressed by quotation 
marks).

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/reading/vanda3.htm

I found this helpful so just thought I'd send it along.

mike
 
 
256
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Dear Nina,

>Dear Jim, In my translation of Khun Sujin's Cambodian Lectures, I am now
>stuck with pa.tipatti, we touched on before. It is explained thus: patti:
>going to, reaching, and pa.ti: specifically. When sati arises it goes
>specifically to the characteristic of a paramattha dhamma that is
>appearing.
>
>Patti: going or reaching, and pa.ti: towards. I looked it up in PTS dict.
>pa.ti patti is used in combination with dhammanudhamma. A way, method,
>practice, means of reaching a goal. Pa.tipajjati: follow a path, a method.
>Is there another meaning of pa.ti, towards, is there a meaning in it of
>"specific"? Or precisely towards? Thank you, Nina.

I have searched through some commentaries but haven't been able to find
anything that gives the meaning of 'pa.ti' in 'pa.tipatti' the latter word
being of rare occurrence in the Tipitaka but is quite common in the
commentaries. I think the meaning would be the same in the case of
pa.tipadaa, pa.tipajjati, and pa.tipanno but still I couldn't find anything
for these words either. There is a meaning 'in the direction of, towards'
(?aabhimukhye) in the list of meanings for 'pa.ti' given in the
Abhidhanappadipika but I don't see one for 'specifically' (visesato). You'll
recall that 'visese' is one of the meanings for 'vi'. I'm not at all skilled
in the prefixes and so about the best I can do is to list all the meanings
from the Saddaniti with examples followed by the Abhidhanappadipika list:

Saddaniiti (p. 881):

1. pa.tigate (paccakkha.m) ?directly
2. pa.tinidhimhi (aacariyato pa.ti sisso)
3. pa.tidaane - in exchange/return for (telatthikassa ghatam pa.ti dadaati)
4. nisedhe - (pa.tisedheti)
5. saadise (pa.tiruupaka.m)
6. nivattane - in turning back (pa.tikkamati)
7. aadaane - in taking (pa.tiga.nhaati)
8. pa.tikara.ne - in making amends (pa.tikaaro)
9. pa.ticce - (paccayo)
10. pa.tibodhane - in understanding (pa.tivedho)
11. lakkha.ne (rukkha.m pati vijjotate vijju)
12. itthambhuutakkhaane - (saadhu Devadatto maatara.m pati)
13. bhaage - (yad ettha ma.m pati siyaa, ta.m diiyatu)
14. pa.tilome - (pa.tisota.m)
15. vicchaaya.m - (rukkha.m rukkha.m pati vijjotate cando)

Abhidhaanappadiipikaa list of 15 (vv. 1178-9):

pa.tidaane =sd
nisedhe =sd
vaame sd=pa.tilome
aadaane (paccassosi) =sd
nivattiya.m sd=nivattane
saadisye sd=saadise
patinidhimhi (mukhyasadise buddhasmaa pati) =sd
aabhimukhye
gatiya.m
patibodhe sd=pa.tibodhane
patigate sd=pa.tigate
punakriyaaya.m
sambhaavane
pa.ticcatthe sd=pa.ticce
lakkha.naadike

Some possibilities might be pa.tigate, nivattane, and pa.tibodhane. I came
across 'nivattana' as a characteristic of the fourth noble truth at Vism
XVI.23 which ~Naa.namoli translates as 'making not occur' which differs in
meaning from 'turning back' given in the first list above. The fourth noble
truth contains the word 'pa.tipadaa' which seems to relate to 'pa.tipatti'
as a near synonym. I thought that the path could be viewed as one that turns
back/away from samsara and goes in the opposite direction towards nibbana.

This is about all I can come up with for now. I'll be sending my replies to
two of your previous messages as soon as I'm finished in the days ahead.

Best wishes,
Jim


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257
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 7:24am
Subject: PTS dict vol 1

 
    Hi,
I like to inform that pts new dict. vol 1 is on sale
for 25 pounds now.(20%discount for member)I hope this
is not like the old one which has sanskrit root and
stem instaed of pali.

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258
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: Re: PTS dict vol 1

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

>Hi,
>I like to inform that pts new dict. vol 1 is on sale
>for 25 pounds now.(20%discount for member)I hope this
>is not like the old one which has sanskrit root and
>stem instaed of pali.

Thank you for this information. Judging from a peek preview of M. Cone's
New Pali-English Dictionary in her article published in JPTS Vol. XXII
1996: Lexicography, Pali and Pali Lexicography, it appears that information
on word formation given in square brackets are very brief and the
corresponding Sanskrit, Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit, and Prakrit forms are
given. Compare:

NPED:
akkhaati and akkhaayati-1, pr. 3 sg. [S. aakhyaati], declares, announces;
tells, tells about, teaches; Vin II 202,5* (asandiddho ca ~aati); . . .

PED:
akkhaati [aa + khyaa, Idg. *sequ; cp. Sk. aakhyaati, Lat. inquam, Gr.
enneko, Goth. saihvan, Ger. sehen etc. See also akkhi & cakkhu] to declare,
announce, tell Sn 87, 172; . . .

I would prefer to see the prefix and Pali root included eg. aa (meaning?) +
khaa (pakathane, cl. 1). The inclusion of Pali synonyms culled from the
commentaries would also be helpful.

Jim



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259
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:01pm
Subject: Re: PTS dict vol 1

 
    Hi, Jim:
When you visit Thailand, you can visit the Mahamakkutt Bookstore and
pick up a copy of "Dhaatu-ppdiipikaa", which shouldn't cost you
more than a couple of dollars. This root dictonary lists the definition
of the most of (common) Pali roots both in Pali and Thai.
tadao
 
 
260
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 3:46pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Jim and Nina:
With respect to pa.ti-patti, I do not know how techinically
Khun Sujin is using the term, but in its simplest definition,
it should be translated as "practice, conduct": pa.ti + PAD(root).
MacFarland's Thai dictionary (p. 493) indictes that there are two Pali forms:
pa.ti-pati (PTS Dic. Non entry) and pa.ti-patti (PTS Dic. p. 396) and
that its Sanskrit form is: p(a)rananib/pati(?), which I cannot
locate in Sir M. Monier-Williams's Sanskrit Dic (in the case of the
Sanskrit word, if the roo is not PAD, then it may be NAM 'bend'.
tadao
 
 
261
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 9:13am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Dear Gayan,

I think the pali in the Thai language has changed quite a bit, over 
time, I was wondering if it has happened in your language? The 
pronounciation of certain pairs of consonants, for example, as I wrote 
in message 162, has become reversed. Does that happen in your 
country also? 

Also, how would you translate pa.tipatti in modern terms, and 
according to your conventions? Is it part of current usage or is it 
more or less a technical dhamma term, may I ask? In Thailand it is 
still very much in use, but it seems that, like many Pali words, the 
meaning may have shifted. 

Thanks in advance and looking forward to hearing from you,
=^_^=
Amara
 
 
262
From: <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:52pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    dear amara,

> I think the pali in the Thai language has changed quite a bit, over
> time, I was wondering if it has happened in your language? The
> pronounciation of certain pairs of consonants, for example, as I 
wrote
> in message 162, has become reversed. Does that happen in your
> country also?
>

the pali is not much of a part in sinhala language when it comes to 
usage.
The pali has been immobile , while the language of communication - 
sinhala
has been getting a lot of feed from
pali,sanskrit,tamil and portuguese as well.

> Also, how would you translate pa.tipatti in modern terms, and

the pali patipatti maps to sanskrit 'pratipatti',
and there also is a sinhala word 'pratipatti' and the de-sanskritized
sinhala version 'piliwetha'.

in the modern sinhala usage 'pratipatti' is a 'policy'.
Like a policy maintained as a precept,guideline,standard, etc.

its a very live word in sinhala.when ppl talk about 
their 'pratipatti's they
mean their qualitative policies.
eg: desha+palana pratipatti means political policy
videsha pratipatti means foreign policy
ayathana pratipatti means company policy

> according to your conventions? Is it part of current usage or is it
> more or less a technical dhamma term, may I ask?

Now it is not necessarily a dhamma term,

> In Thailand it is
> still very much in use, but it seems that, like many Pali words, the
> meaning may have shifted.

Yes there may have been a little shift as people began to use it 
outside the
dhamma context

Some other occations where 'pati' or 'prati' adds some value to the 
original
word...

patisandhi,prathisandhi - sandhi is 'link'
patimallava,prathimallawa - mallava is someone who contests , 
prati+mallava
is his/her opponent(the counter-contestant)
patilaabha,prathilaabha - laabha is profit,gain , prathi+laabha is 
like
'more profit' or 'gain upon gain'
patiraava,prathiraava - raava is sound, prathi+raava is echo 
(sometimes
used for 'more sound')


rgds
gayan
 
 
263
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 1:05pm
Subject: pa.ti

 
    Dear Jim, thank you for all the trouble with pa.ti. I looked up the meanings
and could find most of them, except the one with lakkha.ne (11)and also 12.
The meanings are mostly: towards, opposite, back, in return, against. I
found a few more; pa.tisambhidaa, discriminating knowledge; pa.tisa"nkhaana,
discrimination, mindfulness; pa.tivijjhati, comprehend, penetrate;
pa.tivibbhajati, define.
I can find a way out when translating pa.tipatti, I will just be very
careful. 
As to the commentary, I found out that the passage on puthujana occurs also
in Expositor II, p. 452. I shall still translate it with that text next to
it, but in English all the word associations get lost. Best wishes, Nina.
 
 
264
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 3:01pm
Subject: Re: PTS dict vol 1

 
    Hi Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>When you visit Thailand, you can visit the Mahamakkutt Bookstore and
>pick up a copy of "Dhaatu-ppdiipikaa", which shouldn't cost you
>more than a couple of dollars. This root dictonary lists the definition
>of the most of (common) Pali roots both in Pali and Thai.
>tadao

Thank you for the recommendation. How does this book compare with the lists
of verbal roots with their meanings by Kaccayana, Aggavamsa, and Moggallana?
The second part of Aggavamsa's Saddaniti is the Dhatumala which contains
about 1700 Pali roots each with a commentary. This is what I use mostly. You
can download this volume at tipitaka.org. In the files section of the
homepage for palistudy you can get a copy of a small plain text file I put
together (p1-rts-7.txt) quite some time ago. It contains the complete list
of 1687 Pali roots from the Dhatumala (H. Smith's romanized edition).

As you noted in another message, the Pali root for 'pa.tipatti' is 'pad' and
is listed in the Dhatumala as: 1127. pada gatiya.m (Class 3). It is also
interesting to compare the Pali roots with those in Panini's Dhatupatha with
over 2000 Sanskrit verbal roots. It's easy to match up the Pali ones with
their Sanskrit counterparts. There is a lot more homonymy in Pali than in
Sanskrit and therefore a knowledge of the distinct Sanskrit forms helps to
sort out the confusion caused by different roots that look the same in Pali
but not so in Sanskrit. In some ways I think Pali is a more subtle and
difficult language than Sanskrit.

Best wishes,
Jim


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265
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 7:19am
Subject: Re: PTS dict vol 1

 
    Dear Jim,
This thai root book gave all those in saddaniti and
dhatupatha and dhatumanjusa with some valuable
comments in thai language.I do not think it will help
you much if you can't read thai.


--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> Hi Tadao,
> 
> >Hi, Jim:
> >When you visit Thailand, you can visit the
> Mahamakkutt Bookstore and
> >pick up a copy of "Dhaatu-ppdiipikaa", which
> shouldn't cost you
> >more than a couple of dollars. This root dictonary
> lists the definition
> >of the most of (common) Pali roots both in Pali and
> Thai.
> >tadao
> 
> Thank you for the recommendation. How does this book
> compare with the lists
> of verbal roots with their meanings by Kaccayana,
> Aggavamsa, and Moggallana?
> The second part of Aggavamsa's Saddaniti is the
> Dhatumala which contains
> about 1700 Pali roots each with a commentary. This
> is what I use mostly. You
> can download this volume at tipitaka.org. In the
> files section of the
> homepage for palistudy you can get a copy of a small
> plain text file I put
> together (p1-rts-7.txt) quite some time ago. It
> contains the complete list
> of 1687 Pali roots from the Dhatumala (H. Smith's
> romanized edition).
> 
> As you noted in another message, the Pali root for
> 'pa.tipatti' is 'pad' and
> is listed in the Dhatumala as: 1127. pada gatiya.m
> (Class 3). It is also
> interesting to compare the Pali roots with those in
> Panini's Dhatupatha with
> over 2000 Sanskrit verbal roots. It's easy to match
> up the Pali ones with
> their Sanskrit counterparts. There is a lot more
> homonymy in Pali than in
> Sanskrit and therefore a knowledge of the distinct
> Sanskrit forms helps to
> sort out the confusion caused by different roots
> that look the same in Pali
> but not so in Sanskrit. In some ways I think Pali is
> a more subtle and
> difficult language than Sanskrit.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
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> 
> 
> 
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266
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 8:33am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., asterix7@t... wrote:
> dear amara,
> 
> > I think the pali in the Thai language has changed quite a bit, 
over
> > time, I was wondering if it has happened in your language? The
> > pronounciation of certain pairs of consonants, for example, as I 
> wrote
> > in message 162, has become reversed. Does that happen in your
> > country also?
> >
> 
> the pali is not much of a part in sinhala language when it comes to 
> usage.
> The pali has been immobile , while the language of communication - 
> sinhala
> has been getting a lot of feed from
> pali,sanskrit,tamil and portuguese as well.
> 
> > Also, how would you translate pa.tipatti in modern terms, and
> 
> the pali patipatti maps to sanskrit 'pratipatti',
> and there also is a sinhala word 'pratipatti' and the 
de-sanskritized
> sinhala version 'piliwetha'.
> 
> in the modern sinhala usage 'pratipatti' is a 'policy'.
> Like a policy maintained as a precept,guideline,standard, etc.
> 
> its a very live word in sinhala.when ppl talk about 
> their 'pratipatti's they
> mean their qualitative policies.
> eg: desha+palana pratipatti means political policy
> videsha pratipatti means foreign policy
> ayathana pratipatti means company policy
> 
> > according to your conventions? Is it part of current usage or is 
it
> > more or less a technical dhamma term, may I ask?
> 
> Now it is not necessarily a dhamma term,
> 
> > In Thailand it is
> > still very much in use, but it seems that, like many Pali words, 
the
> > meaning may have shifted.
> 
> Yes there may have been a little shift as people began to use it 
> outside the
> dhamma context
> 
> Some other occations where 'pati' or 'prati' adds some value to the 
> original
> word...
> 
> patisandhi,prathisandhi - sandhi is 'link'
> patimallava,prathimallawa - mallava is someone who contests , 
> prati+mallava
> is his/her opponent(the counter-contestant)
> patilaabha,prathilaabha - laabha is profit,gain , prathi+laabha is 
> like
> 'more profit' or 'gain upon gain'
> patiraava,prathiraava - raava is sound, prathi+raava is echo 
> (sometimes
> used for 'more sound')
> 
> 
> rgds
> gayan


Dear Gayan,

Thank you very much for your detailed reply, and for indulging my 
inquisitiveness. By the way, people are still talking about the 
vancaka dhamma at the foundation! You have introduced quite a number 
of people to the mirror of the mind, anumodana again,

Amara
 
267
From: Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 3:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    dear amara,


> Thank you very much for your detailed reply, and for indulging my
> inquisitiveness.

yes, I am very much interested in the link with dhamma and language(and
speech), as I thought the language has a very cryptic way of making a
meaning(of a dhamma word or phrase) understandable or 'misunderstandable'.


>By the way, people are still talking about the
> vancaka dhamma at the foundation! You have introduced quite a number
> of people to the mirror of the mind, anumodana again,
>

very compassionate of you amara for telling me this.

anumoditha,
gayan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
    

 
268
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Amara:
With respect to Thai orthography, I've heard that nowdays
many Thai words which originte in Sanskrit and Pali do not retain
their original spellings but they are splled as they sound
(e.g ratha-yan"ta" (vehicle), where the whole final syable with a cancelation
marker has ceased to be written). How do you feel about the latest/modern
Thai orthgraphy? Do you think that Thai words have to written as they
sound or their spelling should reflect their etymology.
I am quirious to have your opinion.

(Occationaly, I use McFarland' Thai dic. to understand the etyplogy
of words I am interested in. His dic. and the Thai-Thai dic./Royal
Edition are best sources for an etymological study.)

Here is another question. Do you know that many Thai words and Khmer
words are exactly the same (e.g. number terms). What is your idea:
do you think that Thai borrowed these words from Khmer or vise versa
(or the borrowing was a bi-directional)? tadao
 
 
269
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:42pm
Subject: Re: PTS dict vol 1

 
    Hi, Ong Teng:
Thank you for your answer to Jim Question on
the root dic. tadao
 
 
270
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 0:47pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Amara:
> With respect to Thai orthography, I've heard that nowadays
> many Thai words which originate in Sanskrit and Pali do not retain
> their original spellings but they are spelled as they sound
> (e.g ratha-yan"ta" (vehicle), where the whole final syllable with a 

cancellation
> marker has ceased to be written). How do you feel about the 

latest/modern
> Thai orthography? Do you think that Thai words have to written as 

they
> sound or their spelling should reflect their etymology.
> I am curious to have your opinion.


Hi Tadao,

I think that although the Thai language has practically no real 
grammar, the spelling and pronunciation rules are very precise, and 
much like the French rules, once you know them, you can read and write 
anything, with very few exceptions and of course homonyms (although 
there are plenty of those!). I think the current rules add an 
interesting etymological note as to the roots of the words, and a 
visual variety although quite a few of the letters share the same 
sounds! Originally there must have been many more sounds to the Thai, 
which we lost somehow through the centuries, I think, it is 
interesting to imagine that it might be the beetle nut culture that 
lost us some of the plosive sounds, for obvious reasons!!! You know, 
the way the Madrilenos blurred their speech through the influence of 
the court built around the Hapsburg chins of a line of slurring 
monarchs Did you notice Thais never end the words with plosives and 
such, only with ng, n, m, y, w, g, d and b? 

Nowadays we still stick to the laid rules, although in proper names 
instead of using the pali romanized equivalent, like in my own last 
name, the younger generation spell it according to the Thai 
pronunciation rules, in which case my last name would be be pronounced 
chayapohng (Pali: Chayabongse). Unless there are other vowels 
indicated, two consonants together suppose the sound 'oh' to be 
comprised in the first consonant, much like the sound 'a' is 
understood as the automatic sound of the Pali and Sanskrit consonant. 
The word 'mn' would be read 'mana' in Pali and 'mohn' in Thai, for 
example, except in Pali terms read by Pali literates in a Thai 
sentence!!!

ratha-yan"ta" is literally motor (yan"ta") vehicle (ratha) and the 
'raw reuah' - our name for the consonant 'r' followed by 'th' 'thaw
thung' would be pronounced 'rohd' because the end of words only 
comprise of ng, n, m, y, w, g, d and b sounds! yan"ta" would be just 
'yohn' 

> 
> (Occasionally, I use McFarland' Thai dic. to understand the 
etymology
> of words I am interested in. His dic. and the Thai-Thai dic./Royal
> Edition are best sources for an etymological study.)

I'm not familiar with McFarland' Thai dic, but the Thai-Thai dic. 
Royal Edition is the one my friend Varee bought for me, indeed a great 
source.

> Here is another question. Do you know that many Thai words and Khmer
> words are exactly the same (e.g. number terms). What is your idea:
> do you think that Thai borrowed these words from Khmer or vise versa
> (or the borrowing was a bi-directional)? Tadao

I think it could have been both ways, don't you? We absorbed a lot 
from the ancient Khmer, especially the vocabulary used with the royal 
family in court, 'saweuiy' is Khmer for the verb to eat that is still 
currently in use for royalty, prince and upwards, although for the 
king and queen it is sohng saweuiy and such. Khaneuiy is the royal
pillow (our normal ones are mauhn) etc. These are also still current 
Cambodian words. But for a long time many Thai princes and then their
descendants were sent to rule these parts before the French wrenched 
them from us, so a great deal of the old Thai might have been added to 
the Cambodian language through the centuries as well, the court or 
ruling power being such an important cultural center in any society
(witness Mao and the cultural revolution! Remember the little red 
book?!? and that only in a few years, not over generations of 
influence). 

And since the royal library was destroyed by war with the rest of 
Ayudhaya, and those in Cambodia mainly by the communists and such, it 
is very difficult to trace any of this with any support from the 
ancient texts!!! The French also did their part to sever any ties 
their colonies in the old days had with Thailand, so I guess we are
free to a great extent to let our imagination run wild! Besides both 
languages were greatly influenced by Pali and Sanskrit as well as the 
vedic language of the brahmins.

Still, I'd really like to hear your opinion as a linguist why Thai 
court language should be filled with Khmer words even nowadays, Tadao. 
Do you have any theories about it? I would love to hear them! 

I'm not sure what you mean by the 'number terms' but I think Thai 
numbers have always been this way as far back as the oldest records, 
and even in Thai tribes that settled in southern China and Vietnam 
over a thousand years ago. (nuhng, song, sahm sii), etc. I don't 
remember Khmer numbers, but I have a friend who speaks Khmer, and will 
ask her about it and report further, but perhaps you have studied this 
also? I think this is certain to be a Thai heritage though, even if 
the court language might prove to be 'imported'! The funny thing 
about the court language is that during the Sukhothai period these 
formalities were not yet established, at least not during the days of 
King Ramkamhaeng (and his famous stone inscriptions), and although 
Thais ruled Cambodia up to the colonialization, the Cambodians never 
once ruled Thailand after Sukhothai, still, several Khmer words ended 
up as our court language Which is why I suspect it came with the 
deifying of Thai Kings, you know, as Hindu demigods 'Rama' this and 
that, that the 'Khmer' (or Brahmin ) words became the royal 
vocabulary. Or did it start in Thailand and spread in Cambodia with 
our princes who became their kings? 

What's your opinion, Tadao?

Amara
 
 
271
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 0:37pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Amara:
(I) Thank you very much for your extensive explation to clear
my vague question.

(ii) With respect to the lexical similarities between Thai and Khmer
words, as you said, it is a well known fact that Thai borrowed many terms
on Royal rites and rituals from Khmer. But I didn't know that there are
many lexical similarities in such commonly used words as: 'keet "to be
born" and 'saat' "to be clear".

(iii) As for the words for numbers (e.g, 20, 30, 40, etc.), I cannot
remember precisely, which words are simily between in Thai and in
Khmer (since I do not have (a lobrary copy of) the book I had looked
at now. But when I looked at the book, I was suprised by the fact that
there are commonality among number terms betwen Thai and Khmer.

(iii) At any rate, as you mentioned, the borrowing must have been
bi-directional, given the gegraphical proximatory of Thailand and
Cambodia.

(iv) Here I have anohter question. It is on Mon. I learnt a bit about
the history of Mon people and langauge. They used to live in the area
which we now call "Burma". They were very educated and practiced
the Theravada Buddhism. When they lost their country to Burmese, the
Mon taught various things to the (Burmese) conquerors, including
the Buddhim. I read somewhers saying that there are still
nearly one million Mon people living in SEA asia. And more interestingly,
they are well regraded/respected by the Thai. Is it true that
the Thai have a favourable feeling toward the Mon people, who
are basically a home-less/country-less people for a long long time.
tadao
 
 
272
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:40pm
Subject: Re: consciousness unestablished

 
    Dear Nina,

>Nina: After your remarks, I shall try:
>
>With consciousness unestablished the clansman Vakkali passed finally away.
>
>Co: appati.t.thitenaa ti pa.tisandhivi~n~naa.nena appati.t.thitena.
>
>with consciousness <unestablished>, with the rebirth-consciousness not
>re-established.

The first part 'with consciousness' isn't in the text. It should probably be
bracketed like this: '<with consciousness> unestablished'. The 'not
re-established' could be just 'not established'. I'm not sure if the meaning
of 'pati' is 're-' in this context although Woodward does translate the word
as 'not stationed anew anywhere' at KS iii 106 and Mrs. Rhys Davids has 'not
reinstated' at KS i 152.

>appati.t.thitakaara.naa ti attho.
>because of being unestablished, is the meaning.

I'm tempted to place 'consciousness' within: 'because of
<consciousness> being unestablished'.

>subco: appati.t.thitenaa ti pati.t.tha.m alabhantena.
>
><by being unestablished>, by not obtaining establishment (literally:
>established).

I would put it this way: "<with consciousness> 'unestablished' -- not
obtaining an establishment." Pati.t.tha.m is the accusative sg. of fem.
pati.t.thaa (establishment, footing, foundation, basis, support).

>itthambhuutalakkha.ne eta.m kara.navacana.m, anuppattidhammenaa ti attho.
>
>This wording gives the reason that consciousness has this kind of
>characteristic, that it has the nature of no rebirth. This is the meaning.

In the first part Dhammapala is giving a technical term
(itthambhuutalakkha.ne) for a special use of the instrumental case
(kara.navacana.m) and there is even a rule for this usage in the Saddaniti.
My translation: 'this is the instrumental case with respect to the
characteristic of being this way; not subject to arising is the meaning.'

>Sati hi uppaade pati.t.thita.m naama siyaa, a.t.thakathaaya.m pana yadeva
>tassa vi~n~naa.nassa appati.t.thaanakaara.na.m, tadeva
>parinibbaanakaara.nan ti vutta.m appati.t.thitakaara.naa ti.

I find this last Pali sentence very hard to make sense of as a coherent
whole and wonder if there might be a word or two missing. Unfortunately
when it comes to the tikas I only have one version to work with and so I
can't compare it with other versions.

>If there would be rebirth, it would indeed be established, but in the
>commentary the condition of no foundation is stated, in so far as it is the
>condition of the final passing away, thus the condition for being
>unestablished.
>
>Remarks: I thought that in translation the yad and tad should better be
>turned around, just as yena...tena... I was not sure whether the vutta.m
>refers to the preceding or following. Nina.

yad . . . tad . . . are a pair of correlative pronouns. In English
translation the clause starting with 'tadeva' is the main clause and the
'yadeva' clause would be the subordinate or relative clause. You will note
that I have embedded the 'yadeva' clause within the 'tadeva' clause below
(just that which . . .). I read 'yad' as a 'ya.m' with the niggahita changed
to 'd' before 'eva' but in some other passages one might have to read the
'yad' as 'yadaa' (when) with the 'aa' elided before 'eva'.

'vutta.m' (said/stated/expressed) is a problematic word here and, like you,
I'm not sure if it goes with the preceding or the following part. Only the
following part (appati.t.thitakaara.naa) is in the commentary while 'yadeva
. . . parinibbaanakaara.na.m' is only in this passage. I give a literal
translation based on what I read in the text. It doesn't make a lot of sense
and that could be due to a faulty text or just my poor understanding of it.

"For when there is arising there must indeed be 'establishing', but in the
commentary 'that alone which is the cause of the non-establishing of this
consciousness is the cause of parinibbaana' is stated thus 'because
of <consciousness> being unestablished'."

The last part makes more sense after rearranging the parts and adding the
phrase <by reason of>:

". . . but in the commentary: 'because of <consciousness> being
unestablished' is said <by reason of> that alone which is the cause of the
non-establishing of this consciousness is the cause of parinibbaana."

I will now start going through your translation of the commentary on AN
I.49.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
273
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 11:12pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Amara:
> (I) Thank you very much for your extensive explation to clear
> my vague question.
> 
Thank you for your question! Isn't the internet great? I think Alan 
would have loved it, don't you? He would have been such a great asset 
to the discussions. Have you seen his article in my website? It's in 
the beginner's section, http://www.DhammaStudy.com . I also have his 
picture at the Bodh Gaya as one of the backgrounds of the children's 
section, called 'My First Dhamma', in the article called 'Recitals'. 
The question on this page is so sweet by the way, and my friend Varee 
wrote an answer just as sweet, which I translated.

Also sorry for misspelling 'betel nut' in my last message, I don't 
know how it turned into 'beetle nut', perhaps my affection for bugs 
(except the yukky cockroaches and the computer viruses) is showing!

> (ii) With respect to the lexical similarities between Thai and Khmer
> words, as you said, it is a well known fact that Thai borrowed many 
terms
> on Royal rites and rituals from Khmer. But I didn't know that there 
are
> many lexical similarities in such commonly used words as: 'keet "to 
be
> born" and 'saat' "to be clear".

I would guess that 'keet' is the Thai word pronounced 'gerd' , "to be
> born" as you said, and I'm not sure about 'saat' "to be clear" but 
'sah-aard' in Thai is "clean". When I was in Cambodia, drinking water 
is called 'nam sohd', and 'sohd' in Thai means "fresh", nam as you 
remember is the same in Thai.

> (iii) As for the words for numbers (e.g, 20, 30, 40, etc.), I cannot
> remember precisely, which words are simily between in Thai and in
> Khmer (since I do not have (a library copy of) the book I had looked
> at now. But when I looked at the book, I was suprised by the fact 
that
> there are commonality among number terms betwen Thai and Khmer.
> 
Oh yes, and with the Laos also! As I said they used to be our land, 
as far as Vietnam, and many things in Vietnam are called 'siim' 
(Siam), for example young coconut is 'yeuah siim' one of their very 
nice coriander type plants is also 'siim'. It's rather flattering 
that most of the term refers to nice things!

> (iii) At any rate, as you mentioned, the borrowing must have been
> bi-directional, given the gegraphical proximatory of Thailand and 
> Cambodia.
> 
> (iv) Here I have anohter question. It is on Mon. I learnt a bit 
about
> the history of Mon people and langauge. They used to live in the 
area
> which we now call "Burma". They were very educated and practiced
> the Theravada Buddhism. When they lost their country to Burmese, the
> Mon taught various things to the (Burmese) conquerors, including
> the Buddhim. I read somewhers saying that there are still
> nearly one million Mon people living in SEA asia. And more 
interestingly,
> they are well regraded/respected by the Thai. Is it true that
> the Thai have a favourable feeling toward the Mon people, who
> are basically a home-less/country-less people for a long long time.
> tadao

I know of a Mon settlement now completely blended in with the Thai 
except for the very nice pottery that might retain some of their 
cultural heritage, up the Chao Phraya river. I seem to remember they 
helped fight the Burmese and were granted that island when they 
followed the Thai general back during the Ratanakosin period. There 
are other communities that were driven here as war prisoners in other 
areas of Thailand as well, that are not so well respected, my friend 
Betty used to take her students to visit them as a minority community 
up country, they retain much of their culture, she says, although they 
have been here longer, I think. If you like I will ask Betty to tell 
us more about it, she's married to a great grandson of King 
Chulalongkorn and very interested in Thai history and ethnology, and 
has just retired from teaching. She would be happy to share some of 
her notes, you could even email her in private for greater details, 
she is a born teacher! Her understanding of the dhamma is really 
great as well.

As you know before the colonialists came Thailand was much bigger, 
with lands as far south as some of Indonesia and Singapore was of 
course ours, etc. Without the Chakri dynasty I don't think we could 
have remained independent during the empire hunting days!!! Some of 
the maps from those days don't even have Thailand or Siam on it, just 
the Chao Phraya as division between the territories. My sister has 
one of these maps framed on her wall, as part of her antique 
collection. As soon as they became independent again, most of our 
neighbors sought help from Thailand reviving their art for example, 
Khun Kukrit Pramoj once told us how we sent classical dance teachers 
at their request, and helped revive even the Indonesian court dances, 
although somewhat different from ours. Now I think it's one of the 
finest in the world.

Anyway I'm sorry about the digression, and I hope Jim won't mind us 
wandering away from the Pali, although as in all Buddhist countries we 
have lots of Dhamma terms converted to official, learned language in 
Thai, Burmese, Cambodian and Laos and probably Indonesian as well, 
comparable to what Gayan had described for us about pa.tipatti in the 
Sri Lankan language. (There! I've covered my back!) 

It's great to discuss this with you, Tadao, and I know Jim doesn't 
mind, he's too kind!

Amara
 
 
274
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Khun Amara:
(i) Thank you for your prompt reply.
(ii) Yes, I am interested in knowing more about the Mon people.
(iii) (Please do not take this as an insult!) You very much typify
the Thai people who are very pround of their own country. (I have never
had that kind of feeling towards Japan. I somehow sense that for me
this is my first life to be reborn as a Japanese, and that I must have
been reborn as South-East Asians many many times.)
(iv) Thank you for reminding me of Khun Alan. I never forget him, and
I know that I would never be able to pay him back what I had
owed him. Without his help, I would never have been able to
understand the Dhamma.
(v) Not to be scolded by Jim, let me talk a bit about
Pali/Sasnskrit and Thai. I have a technical paper titled:
"Truncation of Sanskrit and Pali Loanwords in Thai", where
I seeked to have an (elegant) solution which can account for
various trancation forms: e.g.
kaara (P, S) -> kaan 'maker'
netra (S) -> neet 'eye'
vetana (P, S) -> weet 'wages'
candra (S) -> chan 'moon'

If I follow my solution, which I do not discuss here, I can
predict how loanwords (=foreign words) are truncated in Thai.
There is one word which I do not understand at all why it has
such a form, namely, "karaoke" (from Japanese). I am wondering
whether if you can explain me why you do not pronunce it as "karaok",
which is how the Japanese word should be pronounce in Thai
(according to my solution).
tadao
 
 
275
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 5:39am
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Dear Amara and Tadao,

Amara:
>It's great to discuss this with you, Tadao, and I know Jim doesn't
>mind, he's too kind!

Tadao in another post:
>(v) Not to be scolded by Jim, let me talk a bit about
>Pali/Sasnskrit and Thai. I have a technical paper titled:

Just to re-assure the both of you, I don't mind in the least the wonderful
discussion you're having and I'm sure the other members on the list don't
mind either. I have been following it with keen interest and it is a good
opportunity to learn more about Thai cultural history and language.
Thank-you.

Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
276
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 10:40am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    > (ii) Yes, I am interested in knowing more about the Mon people.
> (iii) (Please do not take this as an insult!) You very much typify
> the Thai people who are very proud of their own country. (I have 
never
> had that kind of feeling towards Japan. I somehow sense that for me
> this is my first life to be reborn as a Japanese, and that I must 
have
> been reborn as South-East Asians many many times.)

Dear Khun Tadao, 

May I adopt you as a South-East Asian, more precisely another Thai? 
Susie (who remains my mother's favorite nun!) too of course!

By the way, another amendment for my last post: the Khmer for "water" 
is not 'nam' but 'tueg', sorry about my faulty memory.

I will pass your questions on the Mon to Betty and ask her to comment, 
is there anything else you would like to know? Her email is 
<beyugala@ksc.th.com>, in case you would like to contact her directly.

> (iv) Thank you for reminding me of Khun Alan. I never forget him, 
and
> I know that I would never be able to pay him back what I had
> owed him. Without his help, I would never have been able to
> understand the Dhamma.

I saw that you spoke of him earlier on this list. You didn't need any 
reminders from me to think of his kusala, but it is great to remember 
our brilliant friend together, isn't it? Lobha and dosa and a bit of 
kusala too I think!

> (v) Not to be scolded by Jim, let me talk a bit about
> Pali/Sasnskrit and Thai. I have a technical paper titled:
> "Truncation of Sanskrit and Pali Loanwords in Thai", where
> I seeked to have an (elegant) solution which can account for
> various trancation forms: e.g.
> kaara (P, S) -> kaan 'maker'
> netra (S) -> neet 'eye'
> vetana (P, S) -> weet 'wages'
> candra (S) -> chan 'moon'

Yes, but may I comment that most of the written words retain their 
spellings albeit with the Thai alphabets, it is just the pronunciation 
that changed according to Thai rules? In the case of double 
consonants at the end of the words that are not pronounced there would 
be the special Thai sign we call 'garan' that cancels the sound 
indicated by the spelling. This is what I meant when I said earlier 
that it leaves a etymological trace of the origins of the words and 
distinguishes it from other homonyms in its written form. 

Also the Thai do not always truncate the sounds, some times we add to 
it as well, especially in formal or poetic usage, for example the 
normal word for "eye" is 'taa', but in poetry or in royal parlance it 
is a prince's 'nehd' or a poetic 'netra'. 

The normal word 'jahn' (or 'jun') for the moon is spelled 'jantra' 
with a 'garan' sign above the last double consonant to cancel the 'tr' 
sound. 

The other two terms I am not sure about, 'kaara' or 'garn' in the Thai 
pronunciation means more like "work or function" otherwise it can be 
added to verbs to make them nouns, such as 'garn gratuhm' --"to act"; 
'garn giira' "to play sports"; 'garn kaa' --"to trade" 'garn duu lae' 
--"to look after" 'garn rong plehhng'; --"to sing" etc.

'vetana' as 'weet' or "wages" I don't think I've heard, I don't know 
if our Thai friends on this list has, perhaps not in the BKK regions? 
"Wages" are normally 'ngheun duen' (that's as close as I can manage 
to the sound I guess!), literally 'monthly' "duen" 'money' " ngheun ".
Otherwise 'kha' which means "cost or value" is followed by 'jahng' 
which means "hire", 'rang' or 'rang ngahn', which means "strength" or 
"labor" to form 'kha jahng'; 'kha rang' or 'kha rang ngahn'

> If I follow my solution, which I do not discuss here, I can
> predict how loanwords (=foreign words) are truncated in Thai.
> There is one word which I do not understand at all why it has
> such a form, namely, "karaoke" (from Japanese). I am wondering
> whether if you can explain me why you do not pronunce it as 
"karaok",
> which is how the Japanese word should be pronounce in Thai
> (according to my solution).
> tadao

Sometimes we lenghten the words as well, as I said, but these days 
with communications becoming more and more accessible all over the 
globe I think the younger people are introducing some forgotten sounds 
as well as new ones through the loanwords, now that chewing gum has 
replaced betel nuts in munchers. Japanese sounds will become even 
more familiar, with the video games and especially the translated 
cartoons Thai kids read these days. Not that they would understand 
the language, but they would know certain sounds. Remember the 
'tamagotchi' or something like that? And with the popularity of 
Japanese food in Thailand, the kids would never shorten the word 
'nigiri' or 'tempura' or 'unagi', I don't think! Language does 
reflect the cultural evolutions, doesn't it, as well as mental states 
and even the dhamma, as Gayan mentioned, and there's anatta for you, 
it changes constantly, doesn't it? So many conditions that 
collectively evolves as a community's, a nation's and a world event, 
as Tan Ajaan said somewhere.

From your fellow Thai friend,

Amara
 
 
277
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 11:17am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Amara and Tadao,
> 
> Amara:
> >It's great to discuss this with you, Tadao, and I know Jim doesn't
> >mind, he's too kind!
> 
> Tadao in another post:
> >(v) Not to be scolded by Jim, let me talk a bit about
> >Pali/Sasnskrit and Thai. I have a technical paper titled:
> 
> Just to re-assure the both of you, I don't mind in the least the 
wonderful
> discussion you're having and I'm sure the other members on the list 
don't
> mind either. I have been following it with keen interest and it is a 
good
> opportunity to learn more about Thai cultural history and language.
> Thank-you.
> 
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you for your kind encouragements,

Amara
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
278
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 10:49am
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Jim:
Thank you very much for your kind message.
Jim, is it OK if I ask you about
your Pali background.
I have been impressed by your Pali knowledge,
which has been demonstrated in your
conversation with Khun Nina.
How did you start learning Pali and how have you
acquired the language efficiency? tadao
 
 
279
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 2:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Khun Amara:
(i) Thank you for Betty's e-mail address.
(ii) Yes, Alan was a brilliant guy. (if he have been
reborn as a deva, he should be able to observe us from
the deva-loka. Is it not true that some devas can see our
manussa-loka?)
(iii) It's very interesting that now Thai is deviating its
preference to mono-syllabicity. (Eventually,
the phonological/tonal nature of Thai may
change quite a lot.)
(iv) When you prononce such loanwords as "pikachu' or
'karaoke', do you place a "glottal stop' after the word
final vowel. For instance, when you pronounce,
'sati' (mindfulness), a glottal stop follows the vowel
/i/. You can feel the stop as a kind of choking
sensation in your throat (at the glottis). Do you have
the same kind of choking sensation (=prsense of a glottal
stop) when you prononunce the above Japanese words.
Or can you prolong the word final vowels as 'pikachuuuuuu' or
'karaokeeeee'? (If you can prolong these vowels,
then, there is no presence of the glottal stop at the
word final position. And such a pronounciation is
totally a kind of new phonological phenomenon in Thai
(as far as I can see).
tadao
 
 
280
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 11:06pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    > (ii) Yes, Alan was a brilliant guy. (if he have been
> reborn as a deva, he should be able to observe us from
> the deva-loka. Is it not true that some devas can see our
> manussa-loka?)

Dear Tadao,

Yes indeed! And I am sure he would do anything he can to help us 
understand and study the dhamma! At the very least he would anumodana 
in what we do and accumulate more kusala and panna, I would like to 
think!

> (iii) It's very interesting that now Thai is deviating its
> preference to mono-syllabicity. (Eventually,
> the phonological/tonal nature of Thai may
> change quite a lot.)

It's funny you should mention this problem, which our King often 
refers to in his public addresses, such as on his birthday, the new 
year, and such occasions. He would stress the major nationwide 
problems as well as bring up interesting situation as well as simple 
anecdotes to illustrate his points, even stories of animals he rescued 
and then kept as pets. But quite a few times these last years he 
would mention the decline of the language such as the tones of some of 
the higher pitches are rising, causing the first high tone (normally 
represented by the sign 'mai tohh') to sound very much like the second 
high tone above (normally represented by the sign 'mai trii'). He 
also spoke about the unclear pronunciation of the trilled r, which 
became less and less pronounced, especially with youngsters educated 
abroad, where the r is different. Given the reverence that 
the Thai people have for him, there have been some results, 
especially among Thai language teachers, and nowadays the TV and radio 
reporters are selected specifically for good pronunciation as well. 
Still, in general the trend is not very promising. 

> (iv) When you prononce such loanwords as "pikachu' or
> 'karaoke', do you place a "glottal stop' after the word
> final vowel. For instance, when you pronounce,
> 'sati' (mindfulness), a glottal stop follows the vowel
> /i/. You can feel the stop as a kind of choking
> sensation in your throat (at the glottis). Do you have
> the same kind of choking sensation (=prsense of a glottal
> stop) when you prononunce the above Japanese words.
> Or can you prolong the word final vowels as 'pikachuuuuuu' or
> 'karaokeeeee'? (If you can prolong these vowels,
> then, there is no presence of the glottal stop at the
> word final position. And such a pronunciation is
> totally a kind of new phonological phenomenon in Thai
> (as far as I can see).
> tadao

I don't think I've seen 'pikachu' in BKK, Tadao, what is it? To me it 
doesn't even sound Japanese, strangely enough! 

Thai, as you probably remember, prefer a softer sound, even the 
Japanese loan words haven't changed that yet, glottal stops and 
choking sensations are not for us, not yet anyway! Even the 'karaoke' 
is dragged out just a little, for example where it might sound like a 
little 'karaoke!' it would turn into 'karaokeh' at most, I think. 
Thai and French, though so dissimilar in other ways, is quite alike in 
the fluidity of the sounds, whereas the glottal and other 'rougher' 
characteristics are more like the German to my mind, don't you find? 
Some of the sibilants are appearing at the end of loanwords but I 
wonder if the Thai will ever evolve so far as to adopt the glottal 
stops, even without betel nuts!

But none of us can really predict the future, can we, so given the 
right conditions anything can happen, we know.

Amara
 
 
281
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Karaoke:
Thank you very much for telling me about the interesting story of
your King, whom every Thai respects, commenting on the Thai language.
A langauge has its own life, so, it is not easy to try to retain
all the so-called linguistic traditions.

When you type the pronunciation of "karaoke" as "karaoke!", your
typing indicates that at the word final position, there is
a so-called glottal stop, which is a very natural/slight sensation
of the stop of air flow at your throat. If it is the case,
these newer loanwords are pronounced in the same manner
as the following traditional(Indic) words are pronounded:
"sati!", "samaadhi!", and "pitu!" (father). So, the younger
generation is not creating a new phonological device.
However, they may think that saying such a word as
"karaoke" as "karaoke!" is far more 'cool' than saying it more
natural/Thai way: namely, "karaok". tadao
 
 
282
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:48am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Karaoke:
> Thank you very much for telling me about the interesting story of
> your King, whom every Thai respects, commenting on the Thai 
language.
> A langauge has its own life, so, it is not easy to try to retain
> all the so-called linguistic traditions.

Dear Pikachu, (I hope it's ok since you haven't told me what this 
word meant!!!)

Our King is the nation's most valuable asset at the moment! And a 
detail that might spur your imagination, he is venerated even outside 
Thailand! Taiwanese tour arrange trips to worship our living king, 
among other touristic attractions, of course, but can you imagine 
that!!! There are statuettes of him for sale, both the consecrated 
kind and the non consecrated kind!!!!! I once said to a shop keeper, 
but he's still alive, how can you invite his 'spirit' in there? And 
he said, but he devas and such who will manifest themselves through 
the image! Obviously I was the ignorant one to him. 

> 
> When you type the pronunciation of "karaoke" as "karaoke!", your
> typing indicates that at the word final position, there is
> a so-called glottal stop, which is a very natural/slight sensation
> of the stop of air flow at your throat. 

Actually I said, 'Even the 'karaoke' is dragged out just a little, for 
example where it might sound like a little 'karaoke!' it would turn 
into 'karaokeh' at most, I think.', Tadao, I don't think I've heard 
the glottal stop even in a kid yet, the King would be happy about 
that!

> If it is the case,
> these newer loanwords are pronounced in the same manner
> as the following traditional(Indic) words are pronounded:
> "sati!", "samaadhi!", and "pitu!" (father). So, the younger
> generation is not creating a new phonological device.
> However, they may think that saying such a word as
> "karaoke" as "karaoke!" is far more 'cool' than saying it more
> natural/Thai way: namely, "karaok". tadao

Just a little note, the "pitu!" (father) is actually written as well 
as pronounced 'bihdaa', "father" in formal language. The normal word 
is 'pawh', more politely 'khun pawh', and for "mother", 'mae' or 
'khun mae', whereas in official documents it is always 'bidahh' and 
'marndahh'. 

Given the easy going character of most Thais, I think our language 
might addopt the softer sibilants and such more than the harder 
glottal stops, but fads and fashions are unpredictable to me, I never 
thought there could be computerized terms such as the mouse or cookies 
or email or snail mail or smiling faces, bytes and gigs and I don't 
know what else that computer kids talk about these days, so I may be 
wrong about what will be 'cool' or as Bruce would say, what 'rocks!!!' 
or will 'groove' in the future! 

Your fuddy duddy old fashioned friend,

Amara
 
 
283
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 10:36am
Subject: consciousness unestablished

 
    Daer Jim, thank you so much for the useful corrections. Pa.ti again:
unestablished better than not re-established. Pa.ti does not have the
meaning of re, although pa.tisandhi is often translated as rebirth, to
indicate that there is birth and birth again, is that right?
I noted the term kara.navacana.m as meaning :instrumental case. I should
remember that. 
I could stare a long time on the last part, really difficult. You added:
that alone, but is there "alone"? In the case of Vakkali, the parinibbaana
must be not: upadisesa nibbaana, nibbaana with the khandhas remaining, but
anupadisesa nibbaana, without the khandhas remaining, final passing away.
Thus, I think that non-establishing and parinibbaana amount to the same. The
cause, condition for attaining this is the eradication of all defilements.
But how to model the last part so that it becomes more meaningful? A
suggestion, it may be wrong: but at the end, after non-establishing of this
consciousness, the cause of parinibbaana.Thus, instead of: is, a comma.
Yadeva, as ya.m, useful information, because it occurs often.
There is no better way to learn Pali, I find, and to get deeper into the
texts, than actually translating, and I feel most grateful that you take so
much trouble to make individual corrections. It is a great opportunity for
me. Many thanks, Nina.
 
 
284
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 9:38am
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Khun Amara:
When I think about the Japanese history, I do not think I can
identify even a single figure who had really really dedicated his
life to the well being of his subjects as your King has been.
You are lucky to have such a King who personifies all
the Buddhist virtues (kunna-tham).

Invasion of foreign (English) words are a common phenomenon.
For instance, in Japanese nearly 40% of the words which appear
in the headlines of printed advertisements (eg. magazines and
newspapers) are foreign words, which are used to create
posh/rich/modern/cool images (without conveying any semantic
significance).

I am qurious about the tone assignments of these computer words.
What kind of tones do the words: 'bytes' and 'gigs' have?
tadao
P.S. Pikachu is a creature from Pokemon-game.
 
 
285
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:32pm
Subject: Re: Pali background (was Re: pa.tipatti)

 
    Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>Thank you very much for your kind message.
>Jim, is it OK if I ask you about
>your Pali background.

It's OK.

>I have been impressed by your Pali knowledge,
>which has been demonstrated in your
>conversation with Khun Nina.
>How did you start learning Pali and how have you
>acquired the language efficiency? tadao

I think I first became interested in the Pali language while attending some
Buddhist meetings in Edinburgh, Scotland in 1973. I can remember listening
to a beautiful recording of a bhikkhu chanting the triple refuge, etc. and
coming across some Pali words in small BPS booklets that were lent to me.
Around this time I bought my first dhamma book, a translation of the
Dhammapada. However, it wasn't until early 1976 while staying in Toronto
that I actually took it upon myself to learn Pali using Warder's
Introduction to Pali. In 1977, I bought my first books printed in Pali, the
three vol. set of the Dighanikaya (PTS) and in 1978 I became a subscriber to
the Pali Text Society, corresponded with Miss I.B. Horner, and was well on
my way in amassing a well-stocked Pali library for my own personal use.

I'm mostly self-taught. However, I did make some effort to study Pali under
the instruction of others such as a Sinhalese bhikkhu at the Toronto
Mahavihara (a lesson or two), Prof. A.K. Warder at the University of Toronto
(1 lesson), a post-graduate student under Prof. Warder by the name of Bandu
Madanayake (a Sinhalese). We covered more that half the lessons from
Warder's book in a couple of months in 1980. Also around this time I
considered entering U of T to study Pali under Prof. Warder but nothing came
of it. In 1982, I met a Burmese bhikkhu from Yangon who was said to have
had almost the entire Tipitaka memorized. I had an opportunity to study with
him around 1988 but I just let it go because the conditions weren't right
for it.

I have had a disease called Usher Syndrome since childhood that
significantly limits my eyesight and hearing to the point that I qualify
for a disability pension so I stopped working altogether from 1979 onwards
which has given me the opportunity of pursuing my interests full-time. Mind
you, I haven't been constantly studying Pali all this time but would often
put it aside for awhile to study other subjects but I would have to say that
the Pali language and its texts has been my main focus of study throughout
and even more so now.

Having plenty of free time to study and good Pali and Sanskrit resource
materials to work with have helped me to acquire the language on my own.
In the last few years through the internet I have been able to come into
contact with others who are also interested in Pali like yourself and Nina.
So instead of just studying Pali mostly on my own as before I can now study
with and learn from others as well. I hope I have adequately answered your
questions. Just ask if you want to know more. I already know something about
your Pali background and interest in linguistics. Feel free to point out
errors in my replies to Nina or help out if you see any of getting stuck in
the translations.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
Do You Yahoo!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
286
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 0:39pm
Subject: Re: Pali background (was Re: pa.tipatti)

 
    Hi, Jim:
Thank you very much for telling me about your Pali background.
I didn't know that A.K. Warder taught Pali at UofT. (Is he an
interesting person. (his grammar books implies otherwise).
Burmese are well versed in Pali (even in nowdays). I may be wrong,
but, in Sri Lanka, the traditional (Panini-type) learning traditiion
has very much disappeared. And when they learn these Indic languges,
they just use modern texts, which simply list verb and noun
endings. It is my understaning that in Burma, such a
traditional method is still well alive. I was exposed to such a
method with the grammar book, which, I think, was Rupasiddhi.
After studying Pali for seven years, I opened up the book, and
I couldn't read the very first sentence of the book, which
I still remeber: attho akkhara-sa~~nn-to cattariisa.m(?speeling?).
I knew the meaning of the individual words, and I knew the each ending:
'meaning'(nom/sg), 'character-image-ABLATIVE, and 48(?)(sg/nt).
But the whole sentence didn't make sense at all. I was told that
the whole setence means that if we have a very clear idea of how to
manipulate these 48(?) characters, (we can deal with)
(any) meaning (associated with any word).
The whole grammatical enterprise was very much similar to
so-called generative phonolgy in modern (1960's) linguistics,
in which to derive a surface form (e.g. purisa 'man'), one has
to know, among all the rules in the grammar book, which rules
should be applied and in which order, so that one
can derive the above sufrace form from a highly abstract
'underlying form'. The exposure to such an abstract
treatment of a language was the begining point of my intrest in
Linguisics. Unfortunately, spending too much time in
linguistics, my Pali has become quite rusty. Just by listening to your
on-line conversation with Nina, I would like to remove
some of the rust.
tadao

for a while, being
 
 
287
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 11:03pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    > When I think about the Japanese history, I do not think I can
> identify even a single figure who had really really dedicated his
> life to the well being of his subjects as your King has been.
> You are lucky to have such a King who personifies all
> the Buddhist virtues (kunna-tham).


Dear fellow Thai,

You remind me of his very first words as King, upon his coronation: 
'rao jah pohgkrong paendin doiy tham' which means "We shall reign over 
the land with Dhamma." It makes my hair rise just writing it! Of 
course as you remember probably, the word 'tham' can also mean 
"justice" in Thai, but I think, given his intense interest in 
Buddhism, he also meant the 'dasabidhrajadhamma' (sp?) as taught by 
the buddha or even the Dhamma that we are studying.
> 
> Invasion of foreign (English) words are a common phenomenon.
> For instance, in Japanese nearly 40% of the words which appear
> in the headlines of printed advertisements (eg. magazines and
> newspapers) are foreign words, which are used to create
> posh/rich/modern/cool images (without conveying any semantic
> significance).

Tell me about it! A funny anecdote for you: recently I was in a 7-11 
and say a sign over a machine selling steamed chinese buns, saying, 
'big pao muhdaeng' literally "big"-English, "Chinese steamed 
buns"-Chinese 'pao' "red pork"-Thai (fillings)!!! All it needed was 
an 'ichi ban' in front!
> 
> I am qurious about the tone assignments of these computer words.
> What kind of tones do the words: 'bytes' and 'gigs' have?
> tadao
> P.S. Pikachu is a creature from Pokemon-game.

Written computer terminology, like all foreign words, is usually not 
assigned any 'vannayouhg' or tonal signs. But the pronunciation is 
usually high tone.

I don't know why!

Amara
 
 
288
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Hi, Khun Amrara:
(i) Thank you for a nice message, which I read
with a smile.
(ii) I do understand the Thai phrases you've cited.
(iii) Thai used to borrow many Indic words. Now you
are invaded by English (and Japanese). At least, the
invasion of the Indic words were partly accompanied
by the Dhamma. Whereas the latest invation is
accompanied mostly by materialism. tadao
 
 
289
From: <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 0:25am
Subject: puggala pannati for Teng kee

 
    Dear Sukin and Amara,
I tried to get the translation by Acharn Somporn of the puggala 
pannati commentary for teng kee while I was in Bangkok but was told 
it is now out of print at the foundation. Can either of you get a 
photocopy and contact me off-list?
best wishes
robert
 
 
290
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 6:44am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Khun Amrara:
> (i) Thank you for a nice message, which I read
> with a smile.
> (ii) I do understand the Thai phrases you've cited.
> (iii) Thai used to borrow many Indic words. Now you
> are invaded by English (and Japanese). At least, the
> invasion of the Indic words were partly accompanied
> by the Dhamma. Whereas the latest invation is
> accompanied mostly by materialism. tadao

Dear Khun Tadao,

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

About the Indic words, if you remember, it also accompanied all sorts 
of rites and rituals of the Brahmins, formalized silapataparamasa(sp?) 
that became ingrained in the Thai culture, from a person's birth 'til 
death. Why offend the gods and devas, if any happen to be close by? 
Better make doubly sure that every entity is on your side, the stars 
included, hence all the brahmans who set the time and place of 
important events. And it is easier to believe that things happen 
because of some evil or displeased spirit, it is much easier to fix. 
A friend who owned a popular school once consulted a medium because of 
all the problems that they had been having, and the person said there 
was a Chinese spirit in the grounds who was unhappy that they had only 
a Thai spirit house in the place. She told Tan Ajaan about this and 
KS asked, "What if there is also an Indian spirit or whatever else 
there too? The lawn would be filled with spirit houses!" To be 
honest I don't remember if she did set up the second house or not

Amara
 
 
291
From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:41am
Subject: Pali terms

 
    Dear Jim (or anyone else),

I wonder if you'd kindly give me the Pali and any comments on the Pali for the
following (I hope these are short, simple ones for you;-):

1.What is the Pali translated as 'consciousness' in M49 as in: 

> "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, or 

B.Bodhi translates the passage as:
'the consciousness that makes no showing,
Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26

according to BB's notes (513). He adds, "MA takes
the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense
that "it can be cognized" '.

2.> What is the Pali for the words translated here as 'unrestricted awareness"
in:

> it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from
> these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81)
> 
or 'dwells with amind whose barriers are broken down' here:

>the Wayfarer is free, detached and released, and dwells with a mind whose
barriers are broken down' 
Ang Nik, bk of Tens, 81, Bahuna (Pali, Text V, 151-2)

3. 'What is the Pali for 'trivial people' on Vism ref (anapanasati etc)


4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I assume
Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) and would you kindly
repeat what can be known about the Pali for the noun as I didn't keep my notes
from before.

Many thanks in advance. No hurry!

Sarah




_______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
 
292
From: <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:54am
Subject: Re: Pali terms

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> > 4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I 
assume
> Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) and would 
you kindly
> repeat what can be known about the Pali for the noun as I didn't 
keep my notes
> from before.
> 
> Many thanks in advance. No hurry!
> 
> Sarah
______________
Dear sarah,
here is an old post I sent to dsg that might be of interest.

> 
."


I was looking over some of my correspondence with Nina
van Gorkom. 
Leornardo wrote "He has
> translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta
> (AN VI.46) about
> the dhamma-practitioners and
> meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is
> really
> an old one :-)
> 
> 

I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about
this sutta.
The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the
translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga 
Interestingly both of these groups of
monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus
had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have
been Arahant though or they would not have disputed.

The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga
bhikkhus (the Thai has: "they are wondrous because
they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna".



Nina translated part of the comentary:
The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are
often (continuosly) with the Dhamma.
Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless
(amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body
i.e.cetasikas)
The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma)
penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas
(aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas
(sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta
(i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with
vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which
penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level
of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. 
End of post
Robert

> 
> 
> 
______________________________________________________________________
_
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at 
http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
 
293
From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 8:56am
Subject: Re: Re: Pali terms

 
    many thanks Rob - I may requote some of it! I vaguely remember it now I think.


S.


_______________________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
 
 
294
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:08am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti

 
    Dear Tadao,

Are you ever going to love this!!! This is from Betty, just now. 
Some great things I didn't know about myself! And to think that I am 
a member of the Siam Society (though I haven't been there for a long 
time), as my father had been! (he probably would have known all this!)

Thanks for the question which gave me the opportunity to learn with 
you, 

Amara

*********************
*********************


Hi, Amara,
OK, here's a bit about the Mons, the progenitors of SEAsian culture, 
especially Thai and Burmese.

They are a rather old people who lived in the central area between 
Pegu, Burma (I refuse to call it Myanmar) and Nakorn Pathom in 
Thailand. Today, most of them live in Thailand, having escaped from 
the perennial persecution they have always received from Burma. Many 
Mon communities can be found in Pakkret, Ratburi and Kanchanaburi, 
among others. And, if one visits their excellent museum in Ratburi, 
you will see lots of evidence of Mon culture and the efforts to keep 
it alive. Most Mon still speak their language at home, keep their 
customs and pass on the spoken and written languages to their 
children, even though they are "Thai." 

When we visited the village, it was situated just next to the village 
with the Mon museum. Monks in the temple there chanted in Mon instead 
of Pali and each house had a special shrine with flowers and baskets 
placed around the most important "house pole" or piling. I was given 
the honor of sleeping in the room which shared that same pole and was 
thus considered the best room in the house. The food was Thai although 
they also had Mon names for most of the dishes. But, other than that 
they spoke the language at home, studied Mon writing, and respected 
the "house pole", there were few Mon customs to distinguish them from 
the Thais. Most of the children are so well assimilated that many of 
their old customs are dying out, except for the efforts to keep the 
spoken language alive.

It is believed that in the 6th c. AD they had a flourishing 
civilization, called Dvaravati, that probably centered in Nakorn 
Pathom and included most of modern day Thailand and southern Burma. 
All the artifacts found from that long lost civilization point to that
conclusion. A few of their contributions:

Theirs was the first Theravada Buddhist civilization in the area. 
Artifacts found include numerous "Wheels of the Law" in which the 
Buddha set in motion the path of purification, the Dhamma, through 
which one would gain increasing wisdom that would help dispel 
defilements: lobha, dhosa and moha. It is believed that the firm 
foundation they established for Buddhism may have been a major factor 
in keeping northern SEAsia Buddhist after the coming of Islam to 
"island" SEAsia (Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) Their architectural style 
is evident in Burma, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia: the distinctive 
tiered roofs are their gift to us. A host of words in the Thai 
language are of Mon origin, e.g., kanom jeen, with jeen having first 
thought to have meant Chinese, is actually from Mon (sorry, I can't 
find the source and the original meaning of that word). 

The Siam Society published an excellent book on them, called The Mons, 
which gives their history, culture, customs, etc. Right now my copy is 
packed away awaiting finishing the construction of "my room", but if 
you call up the Siam Society, you can probably order a copy from them.

Hope this is at least a beginning for your friend who is interested in 
this fascinating civilization and people.

With metta,
Betty



__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
beyugala@ksc.th.com
 
 
295
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 5:13pm
Subject: Re: puggala pannati for Teng kee

 
    Dear Teng(and Sukin),
Amara wrote to me that she has posted the copy to you already ,
could you confirm when it arrives.
thanks
robert> 


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296
From: <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 9:49pm
Subject: Does anyone want to answer?

 
    --- Dear Group,
I was wondering if any of the members who don't write so often would 
like to reply to this message on dsg. I have explained these matters 
often before and I think other members get bored with hearing my 
repititions.
If everyone is too busy I will.
snip]
There is no Robert;
[snip]
> 
> robert

Hi Robert,

You wrote "There is no Robert". Could you explain who you were 
referring to by the name "Robert"?

Metta,
Victor

[297 deleted]

298
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 10:56pm
Subject: Re: consciousness unestablished
Dear Nina,

>Daer Jim, thank you so much for the useful corrections. Pa.ti again:
>unestablished better than not re-established. Pa.ti does not have the
>meaning of re, although pa.tisandhi is often translated as rebirth, to
>indicate that there is birth and birth again, is that right?

Yes, that is how I understand it but I wouldn't rule out the 're-' in 'not
re-established'. In the list of meanings for 'pati' I think 'vicchaaya.m' or
'punakriyaaya.m' (repetition) might apply to both pati.t.thita and
pa.tisandhi.

>I noted the term kara.navacana.m as meaning :instrumental case. I should
>remember that.

I now think 'an expression in the instrumental <case>' would be a more
appropriate translation of 'kara.navacana.m'. I have also seen
'bhummavacana.m' (an expression in the locative <case>) in the commentaries
too.'-vacana.m' is also seen in other grammatical terms (in grammar books)
such as: bahuvacana or puthuvacana (an expression in the plural <number>)
and purisavacana (an expression in the masculine <gender>), etc.

>I could stare a long time on the last part, really difficult. You added:
>that alone, but is there "alone"?

'alone' was my translation of 'eva' in 'tadeva'. I also thought of 'just
that' and 'only that'. I'm reading 'eva' here as a particle of restriction.
CPD also notes other uses as a particle of affirmation or emphasis but I
haven't thought much about them in this passage. The 'yadeva . . . tadeva .
. . construction is a rather new one for me.

>In the case of Vakkali, the parinibbaana
>must be not: upadisesa nibbaana, nibbaana with the khandhas remaining, but
>anupadisesa nibbaana, without the khandhas remaining, final passing away.
>Thus, I think that non-establishing and parinibbaana amount to the same.

And the commentary also seems to be saying that the cause (kaara.na) is the
same for both.

>The cause, condition for attaining this is the eradication of all
defilements.
>But how to model the last part so that it becomes more meaningful? A
>suggestion, it may be wrong: but at the end, after non-establishing of this
>consciousness, the cause of parinibbaana.Thus, instead of: is, a comma.

I'm afraid I don't know quite what you mean. The following might help. The
CPD gives one of the uses of 'iti' as: . . . sometimes causal ("so thinking,
arguing thus" =) "on this account, for this reason"; . . . I thought this
might be applicable to the 'ti' in 'parinibbaanakara.nan ti'.

". . . but in the commentary 'because of <consciousness> being
unestablished' is said for this reason: just that which is the cause of the
non-establishing of this consciousness is the cause of parinibbaana." (note
that the 'tassa' before 'vi~n~naa.nassa' might be 'his' instead of 'this')

>Yadeva, as ya.m, useful information, because it occurs often.
>There is no better way to learn Pali, I find, and to get deeper into the
>texts, than actually translating, and I feel most grateful that you take so
>much trouble to make individual corrections. It is a great opportunity for
>me. Many thanks, Nina.

You're most welcome! It's also a great opportunity for me to learn more.
I have done some work on your translation of the AN I.49 commentary. One of
the reasons I get delayed is that I'm always running into something new in
the Pali passages so I have to do some studying to get a better
understanding. One recent example was finding out more about the so-called
partitive genitive of 'niilaadiina.m'. There will be yet another delay as I
think I should next start working on Sarah's list of passages to check. So
after that I'll try and get back to your translation. Then a reply to
Tadao's message after that ...

Best wishes,
Jim


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299
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 3:14am
Subject: Copernic's highest score again!
Dear friends,

This morning Copernic (one of the best search engines around) rated 
<http://www.DhammaStudy.com> the highest score searching the word 
'dhamma' again, having done so for the first time last year.

Guess who has the same scores exactly as our co-first place, (although 
the are listed second!) <http://www.quantrum.com.my/dhamma-list/> . 

I once sent a letter asking how they judged and scored the sites but 
they never answered me, sorry, friends. I only know they have 
hundreds of search engines in their system. I also think they change 
search engines with every update so our site will probably descend in 
rank again, but for now, 

We're # 1 again! Thanks and anumodana to all those who have helped it 
become what it is, and I hope people will continue to benefit from it,

Amara


300
From: Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:58am
Subject: Re: Copernic's highest score again!
bravo & well-done!

_/\_

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amara" <joychay@hotmail.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 3:14 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Copernic's highest score again!


>
> Dear friends,
>
> This morning Copernic (one of the best search engines around) rated
> <http://www.DhammaStudy.com> the highest score searching the word
> 'dhamma' again, having done so for the first time last year.
>
> Guess who has the same scores exactly as our co-first place, (although
> the are listed second!) <http://www.quantrum.com.my/dhamma-list/> .
>
> I once sent a letter asking how they judged and scored the sites but
> they never answered me, sorry, friends. I only know they have
> hundreds of search engines in their system. I also think they change
> search engines with every update so our site will probably descend in
> rank again, but for now,
>
> We're # 1 again! Thanks and anumodana to all those who have helped it
> become what it is, and I hope people will continue to benefit from it,
>
> Amara
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

301
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 11:31am
Subject: Re: Copernic's highest score again!
Thanks, Gayan!  And thanks again for the vancaka, which are also in 
there!!!

=^_^=
 _/\_
Amara


--- In palistudy@y..., "Gayan Karunaratne" <asterix7@t...> wrote:
> bravo & well-done!
> 
> _/\_
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Amara" <joychay@h...>
> To: <palistudy@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 3:14 AM
> Subject: [palistudy] Copernic's highest score again!
> 
> 
> >
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > This morning Copernic (one of the best search engines around) 
rated
> > <http://www.DhammaStudy.com> the highest score searching the word
> > 'dhamma' again, having done so for the first time last year.
> >
> > Guess who has the same scores exactly as our co-first place, 
(although
> > the are listed second!)  <http://www.quantrum.com.my/dhamma-list/> 
.
> >
> > I once sent a letter asking how they judged and scored the sites 
but
> > they never answered me, sorry, friends.  I only know they have
> > hundreds of search engines in their system.  I also think they 
change
> > search engines with every update so our site will probably descend 
in
> > rank again, but for now,
> >
> > We're # 1 again!  Thanks and anumodana to all those who have 
helped it
> > become what it is, and I hope people will continue to benefit from 
it,
> >
> > Amara
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
 
302
From: srnsk@aol.com 
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi group,

I just had a time to catch up with the psg after got back from my vacation.  
Well, I read the mail list in reverse order.  

Hi Tadao, I am not sure that I have ever said hi to you. Let me introduce 
myself then, my name is Num and of course I am Thai.

<<<kaara  (P, S) -> kaan 'maker'netra  (S)    -> neet  'eye'vetana (P, S) -> 
weet  'wages'candra (S)    -> chan  'moon'

If I follow my solution, which I do not discuss here, I canpredict how 
loanwords (=foreign words) are truncated in Thai.There is one word which I do 
not understand at all why it hassuch a form, namely, "karaoke" (from 
Japanese). I am wonderingwhether if you can explain me why you do not 
pronunce it as "karaok",which is how the Japanese word should be pronounce in 
Thai(according to my solution).>>>  
    
Since Jim has given a permission that we can digress a little bit about 
Thai-Pali-Japanese, so I think I can talk a little bit about it then.

As K. Amara said, I have never heard the word "weet" in Thai which means a 
salary neither.  In Thai we prefer a short pronunciation, I am not sure who 
invented and when the silent mark (karan) was introduced in to Thai written 
language, I guess it came after the Pali-Sansakrit has arrived and mixed into 
Thai, as you said Thai are usually short one syllable with direct simple 
spelling.

Regarding the Karaoke, how does the Japanese exactly say it. In English we 
say Ka-ra-o-ke as well.   Remind me one of my difficulty in studying English. 
 In Thai we do not say the last sound of the word as strong as in English.  
Like the word "feet and feed" will sound the same in Thai.  I still at times 
do not say the last sound of the word in English that much.   In Thai we 
group the last sound of the word in 4 or 5 main groups ( Mae Tau Sakod).  I 
have to inform you that my brain is not build for language, I usually do not 
like study language when I was younger. I even refused to learn English when 
I was younger, stupid kid !!!!!

Here are the main Mae Sakod that I can think of from my head

Kok: the word ended with K or G will have the same ending sound like vipak
Kod : the word ended with T, Th, D, Dh at times Ch will sound the same e.g. 
bod(to grind) and bot(chapter), or sad as in Sadha( confidence) or 
Saccha(truth)
Kob : the word ended with P, B, Ph will sound the same like Laab (the name of 
a food) and Laap(lapi, gaining)
Kon: the word ended with N, R, L will sound the same, here come the 
confusion.  Kaar(a)become Kan, Nakara(city) become Nakon, Kala(time)->Kal and 
read as Kan like Kaar(a)
Kong : mainly for ng like Anguttara

Alright, the word karaoke, I guess you say the K at the end pretty strong 
that why in Thai we have to say -ke.

Sorry have to stop now, and run to do sth.

Jim I will try to catch up with Pali as well.

Bad student.

Num



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
303
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 15, 2001 11:09pm
Subject: Re: Pali terms
Dear Sarah,

>Dear Jim (or anyone else),
>
>I wonder if you'd kindly give me the Pali and any comments on the Pali for
>the following (I hope these are short, simple ones for you;-):
>
> 1.What is the Pali translated as 'consciousness' in M49 as in:
>
>> "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, or

*vi~n~naa.na.m* anidassana.m ananta.m sabbatopabha.m. (MN I 329)

>B.Bodhi translates the passage as:
>'the consciousness that makes no showing,
>Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26
>
>according to BB's notes (513). He adds, "MA takes
>the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the
>sense that "it can be cognized" '.

From my understanding the com. seems to be interpreting 'vi~n~naa.na.m' as
'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not 'consciousness' like Horner and B.
Bodhi translates. I read the sentence roughly like this:

"Cognizable, invisible, without end, shining in all directions, it is not
experienced through the extensity of extension . . ."

I take 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to mean that nibbana is 'cognizable' (through the
knowledges of reviewing the path and fruit -- according to the subcom.).

>2.> What is the Pali for the words translated here as 'unrestricted
awareness"
>in:
>
>> it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from
>> these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81)
>>
>or 'dwells with amind whose barriers are broken down' here:

. . . vimariyaadikatena cetasaa viharatii ti. (AN V 152)

lit. with a mind made without boundary. The com. mentions 'having severed
the boundary of the defilements (kilesamariyaada.m bhinditva . . .)

>>the Wayfarer is free, detached and released, and dwells with a mind whose
>barriers are broken down'
>Ang Nik, bk of Tens, 81, Bahuna (Pali, Text V, 151-2)
>
>3. 'What is the Pali for 'trivial people' on Vism ref (anapanasati etc)

ittarasattaa (not in the Tipitaka, and rare in the commentaries)

>4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I assume
>Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) and would you kindly
>repeat what can be known about the Pali for the noun as I didn't keep my
>notes from before.

dhammayogaa bhikkhuu & jhaayii bhikkhuu

Best wishes,
Jim


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304
From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:00am
Subject: Re: Pali terms
Jim,

many thanks indeed for these v.helpful notes which I'll study carefully and try
to use appropriately!

Sarah

 --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> >Dear Jim (or anyone else),
> >
> >I wonder if you'd kindly give me the Pali and any comments on the Pali for
> >the following (I hope these are short, simple ones for you;-):
> >
> > 1.What is the Pali translated as 'consciousness' in M49 as in:
> >
> >> "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, or
> 
> *vi~n~naa.na.m* anidassana.m ananta.m sabbatopabha.m. (MN I 329)
> 
> >B.Bodhi translates the passage as:
> >'the consciousness that makes no showing,
> >Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26
> >
> >according to BB's notes (513). He adds, "MA takes
> >the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the
> >sense that "it can be cognized" '.
> 
> From my understanding the com. seems to be interpreting 'vi~n~naa.na.m' as
> 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not 'consciousness' like Horner and B.
> Bodhi translates. I read the sentence roughly like this:
> 
> "Cognizable, invisible, without end, shining in all directions, it is not
> experienced through the extensity of extension . . ."
> 
> I take 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to mean that nibbana is 'cognizable' (through the
> knowledges of reviewing the path and fruit -- according to the subcom.).
> 
> >2.> What is the Pali for the words translated here as 'unrestricted
> awareness"
> >in:
> >
> >> it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from
> >> these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81)
> >>
> >or 'dwells with amind whose barriers are broken down' here:
> 
> . . . vimariyaadikatena cetasaa viharatii ti. (AN V 152)
> 
> lit. with a mind made without boundary. The com. mentions 'having severed
> the boundary of the defilements (kilesamariyaada.m bhinditva . . .)
> 
> >>the Wayfarer is free, detached and released, and dwells with a mind whose
> >barriers are broken down'
> >Ang Nik, bk of Tens, 81, Bahuna (Pali, Text V, 151-2)
> >
> >3. 'What is the Pali for 'trivial people' on Vism ref (anapanasati etc)
> 
> ittarasattaa (not in the Tipitaka, and rare in the commentaries)
> 
> >4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I assume
> >Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) and would you kindly
> >repeat what can be known about the Pali for the noun as I didn't keep my
> >notes from before.
> 
> dhammayogaa bhikkhuu & jhaayii bhikkhuu
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


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305
From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:00am
Subject: Re: Pali terms
Jim,

many thanks indeed for these v.helpful notes which I'll study carefully and try
to use appropriately!

Sarah

 --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> 
> >Dear Jim (or anyone else),
> >
> >I wonder if you'd kindly give me the Pali and any comments on the Pali for
> >the following (I hope these are short, simple ones for you;-):
> >
> > 1.What is the Pali translated as 'consciousness' in M49 as in:
> >
> >> "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, or
> 
> *vi~n~naa.na.m* anidassana.m ananta.m sabbatopabha.m. (MN I 329)
> 
> >B.Bodhi translates the passage as:
> >'the consciousness that makes no showing,
> >Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26
> >
> >according to BB's notes (513). He adds, "MA takes
> >the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the
> >sense that "it can be cognized" '.
> 
> From my understanding the com. seems to be interpreting 'vi~n~naa.na.m' as
> 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not 'consciousness' like Horner and B.
> Bodhi translates. I read the sentence roughly like this:
> 
> "Cognizable, invisible, without end, shining in all directions, it is not
> experienced through the extensity of extension . . ."
> 
> I take 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to mean that nibbana is 'cognizable' (through the
> knowledges of reviewing the path and fruit -- according to the subcom.).
> 
> >2.> What is the Pali for the words translated here as 'unrestricted
> awareness"
> >in:
> >
> >> it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from
> >> these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81)
> >>
> >or 'dwells with amind whose barriers are broken down' here:
> 
> . . . vimariyaadikatena cetasaa viharatii ti. (AN V 152)
> 
> lit. with a mind made without boundary. The com. mentions 'having severed
> the boundary of the defilements (kilesamariyaada.m bhinditva . . .)
> 
> >>the Wayfarer is free, detached and released, and dwells with a mind whose
> >barriers are broken down'
> >Ang Nik, bk of Tens, 81, Bahuna (Pali, Text V, 151-2)
> >
> >3. 'What is the Pali for 'trivial people' on Vism ref (anapanasati etc)
> 
> ittarasattaa (not in the Tipitaka, and rare in the commentaries)
> 
> >4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I assume
> >Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) and would you kindly
> >repeat what can be known about the Pali for the noun as I didn't keep my
> >notes from before.
> 
> dhammayogaa bhikkhuu & jhaayii bhikkhuu
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


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306
From: mlnease@yahoo.com 
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 7:57am
Subject: Declension and Conjugation Tables
Hello, All,

I don't really quite know what to do with them yet, but there are 
declension and conjugation tables on-line at: 

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/PALI/p-decle0.htm

You'll have to download and install their 'Foreign1' font to display 
the Pali.  The display is still bizarre after that--for example, 
before 'Inflection', 'ܤ' is displayed(!)  The declensions and 
conjugations are there, though, in Pali and English--the 
indecipherable words are, I think, the Chinese equivalents.  They 
don't display properly for me because I don't have their Chinese 
font, but I couldn't read it anyway, so there's really no problem 
except for the distracting nonsense characters.

mike
 
307
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 1:30pm
Subject: Sarah's list
Dear Jim, thank you for your letter with useful directions. I am very glad
you will first deal with Sarah's list, because her points are very relevant
and interesting. I am looking forward to your remarks. I would like to add
one more point. Robert was quoting from Ven. Soma's commentary to the
satipa.t.thaana sutta, about  "the particular sense of awareness". Since I
am still thinking of pa.ti patti, I would like to know what this is in Pali,
visesa? Here is the text :

Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a bhikkhu)
> understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs,
> jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving.
> But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given
> concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort
> belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does
> not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of
> meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness.
> 
> Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of
> moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities
> of moving on.
> The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in
> the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of
> knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this
> discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is
> to be taken. "" ENDQUOTE

From August 25 I shall be silent for one week, because we are going away.
Nina. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
308
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 6:30pm
Subject: choosing satipatthana
Dear Teng kee,
 you wrote:

---Dear Jonothan,
You said any 4 objects can be done for anyone.Please beware that
com said 
kaya and vedana for samathayanika /craving people but citta and
dhamma for 
sukkhavipassaka /viewing people.
______
I think we have to look at a few areas here. In the visuddhmagga
(I don't have it with me) I think I saw a section where it says
that the differnt types of people is a general classification
and in fact everyone has all the bad traits in varying degrees.

Here is a section from another commentary: 
In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph
564 it says In respect of the classification of the
Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place
in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to
supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one
consciousness and with others feeling etc. 

If anyone has further commets I would be interested.
robert


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309
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:23pm
Subject: Re: Sarah's list
Dear Nina,

>Dear Jim, thank you for your letter with useful directions. I am very glad
>you will first deal with Sarah's list, because her points are very relevant
>and interesting. I am looking forward to your remarks. I would like to add
>one more point. Robert was quoting from Ven. Soma's commentary to the
>satipa.t.thaana sutta, about  "the particular sense of awareness". Since I
>am still thinking of pa.ti patti, I would like to know what this is in
Pali,
>visesa? Here is the text :

 'visesa' does appear with the word 'jaanana' (knowing). See below. I have
already dealt with Sarah's list but didn't go into too many details as it
always seems that once I start delving into particular words or phrases a
lot of time flies by.

>Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a bhikkhu)
>> understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs,
>> jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving.
>> But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given
>> concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort
>> belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does
>> not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of
>> meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness.
>>
>> Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of
>> moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities
>> of moving on.
>> The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in
>> the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of
>> knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this
>> discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is
>> to be taken. "" ENDQUOTE

The following is the Pali text of the above paragraph beginning with
'Going'.

'gacchanto vaa' ti aadi gamanaadimattajaananassa
gamanaadigatavisesajaananassa ca saadhaara.navacana.m. tattha
gamanaadimattajaanana.m na idhaadhippeta.m, gamanaadigatavisesajaanana.m
pana adhippetan ti ta.m vibhajitvaa dassetu.m 'tattha kaaman' ti aadi
vutta.m. (DA.T ii 384 pts -- same for MA.T)

Apparently, Soma Thera's translation is rather free and interpretive since
much of it is not actually in the original Pali. The most difficult word to
understand is: 'gamanaadigatavisesajaanana.m' especially the 'gatavisesa'
part. You might want to think about some other possible meanings. 'the
particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities' (of
moving on, etc.) is Soma's rendering of the whole compound. 'of the (true)
characteristic qualities' seems to be his interpretation of 'visesa'. And
somehow 'the particular sense' slipped in.

'or going' and so on is an expression common to <both> knowing the mere fact
of going and so on and knowing the particulars concerning going and so on.
Therein, 'knowing the mere fact of going and so on' is not meant here but
'knowing the particulars concerning going and so on' is what is meant. after
analysing thus and in order to show this, 'therein according to inclination'
and so on is said.

I've translated 'gatavisesa' as 'the particulars concerning' taking the
'gata' (concerining) to be like the one in 'kaaya-gataa-sati (mindfulness
concerning the body). I'm a little fuzzy on 'ti ta.m vibhajitvaa dassetu.m'.
Could 'the particulars' be referring to the questions: ko gacchati (who
goes?) etc.? Other meanings I thought of for 'visesa': distinctions,
differences, details.

>From August 25 I shall be silent for one week, because we are going away.
>Nina.

Thanks for telling us and I hope you have a nice trip. That still leaves me
with some time to work more on your AN I.49 com. translation before you go.

Jim


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310
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 1:11am
Subject: Re: Sarah's list
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> xt :
> 
>  'visesa' does appear with the word 'jaanana' (knowing). See
> below. I have
> already dealt with Sarah's list but didn't go into too many
> details as it
> always seems that once I start delving into particular words
> or phrases a
> lot of time flies by.
> 
> > 'gacchanto vaa' ti aadi gamanaadimattajaananassa
> gamanaadigatavisesajaananassa ca saadhaara.navacana.m. tattha
> gamanaadimattajaanana.m na idhaadhippeta.m,
> gamanaadigatavisesajaanana.m
> pana adhippetan ti ta.m vibhajitvaa dassetu.m 'tattha kaaman'
> ti aadi
> vutta.m. (DA.T ii 384 pts -- same for MA.T)
> 
> Apparently, Soma Thera's translation is rather free and
> interpretive since
> much of it is not actually in the original Pali. The most
> difficult word to
> understand is: 'gamanaadigatavisesajaanana.m' especially the
> 'gatavisesa'
> part. You might want to think about some other possible
> meanings. 'the
> particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic
> qualities' (of
> moving on, etc.) is Soma's rendering of the whole compound.
> 'of the (true)
> characteristic qualities' seems to be his interpretation of
> 'visesa'. And
> somehow 'the particular sense' slipped in.
> 
_
Dear Jim'
Isn't visesa often associated with lakkhana in the texts , hence
soma's interpretation? I guess he was trying to show that the
awareness was of an actual dhamma (not a concept of going). 
I have noticed in other areas that he does add little bits(and
also omitts others) in his translation. I guess everyone does
this but it makes the job of understanding all that much harder
for pali illiterates like me.
robert

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311
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 7:54am
Subject: Re: choosing satipatthana
Dear Robert,
You are asking the hardest question for
satipatthana.No one i met know the answer.From U.
prof. to forest monks.I did ask mahasi sayadaw 's best
known teachers,they avoided  me directly.In handbook
of mediatation by nyanaponika-he mentioned mahasi's
teacher cannot understand satipatthana sutta,maybe he
read the com and just couldn't understand it at
all.Com cannot be wrong in this comment but maybe in
some words grammar,history.
Why  emerging from citta /dhamma cannot work for
sariputta /moggallana who is samatha yanika better in
feeling for sariputta,dhatu /inferior for moggalana
.Why dhamma and citta cannot work for buddha's best
students.Unthinkable for me until this moment for at
least ten years!Hopefully not like this forever.




--- Robert Kirkpatrick
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> Dear Teng kee,
>  you wrote:
> 
> ---Dear Jonothan,
> You said any 4 objects can be done for anyone.Please
> beware that
> com said 
> kaya and vedana for samathayanika /craving people
> but citta and
> dhamma for 
> sukkhavipassaka /viewing people.
> ______
> I think we have to look at a few areas here. In the
> visuddhmagga
> (I don't have it with me) I think I saw a section
> where it says
> that the differnt types of people is a general
> classification
> and in fact everyone has all the bad traits in
> varying degrees.
> 
> Here is a section from another commentary: 
> In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph
> 564 it says In respect of the classification of the
> Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes
> place
> in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior
> to
> supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one
> consciousness and with others feeling etc. 
> 
> If anyone has further commets I would be interested.
> robert
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 




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312
From: robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 3:07am
Subject: Re: choosing satipatthana
Dear Teng kee,
Yes, it is a perplexing one where the commentaries seem to have 
different conclusions. I think we can see that for some of us some 
aspects of nama and rupa are easier (relatively) to comprehend 
directly than others. I find rupa as vanayatana gradually becomes a 
little more known as it is; but nama  hardly at all. It shows my 
accumulations, my type. But if I try to choose a foundation based on 
this wouldn't there be an idea of control. Sometimes lobha is very 
apparent and then it is clear that the foundation at that moment is 
citta  but I wouldn't conclude from that I should take citta as my 
sole foundation.?
. The Sangha raja of Cambodia questioned Tan Ajarn Sujin on this in 
December:


Sujin:Thus, the study on the level of theoretical knowledge of the
Dhamma 
(pariyatti) is the study of the names of realities. At that
level the 
characteristics of realities do not appear to panna. Panna
should be 
developed stage by stage so that the true nature of realities
can be 
directly known.

But Sawong: The venerable Head Patriarch has some questions. If 
it is true that one cannot choose or select any object for the
practice 
of satipatthana, how do you explain that, as we read in the 
commentaries, objects are selected in accordance with a persons
temperament or 
character, such as a greedy temperament (tanh carita) or a
speculative 
temperament (di""hi carita) 7 . Furthermore, some people have
samatha as 
their vehicle, they have developed tranquillity and insight, and
some 
have vipassan as their vehicle, they have developed only
vipassan. In 
the Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta a city with four gates
has 
been compared to nibbana, and it has been explained that just as
people 
can enter a city with four gates by anyone of these gates, one
can attain 
enlightenment by means of anyone of the four applications of 
mindfulness, mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of citta and
of dhammas. How do 
we have to understand this?

Sujin: Usually when people read in the 
scriptures about these subjects they desire to know more about
this, or 
they desire to act in a particular way. When they hear about
different 
temperaments, such as a person of an intelligent temperament, a 
ruminating temperament, or a hateful temperament, they think of
themselves as 
having such or such temperament and they choose a particular way
of 
development which suits their character. However, in reality
this subject of 
the Dhamma has been taught so that it is a condition for the
arising of 
panna that knows the truth. Only when one develops satipatthana
panna
can arise and then a person can know what character or
temperament he 
has. Without the development of satipatthana he does not know
realities 
and he can only guess what kind of temperament he has. There are

qualities such as attachment, aversion, ignorance, and also
panna, 
understanding of the Dhamma. What temperament do we have? This
is only thinking 
and guessing. Everybody has these dhammas. Only when panna
arises and 
sati is aware we can know the truth about the different
characters of 
each individual, we can know how our accumulated inclinations
are the 
condition for our own temperament. 

Someone may guess about his 
temperament and he may believe that he should develop a
particular object among 
the four Applications of Mindfulness. He hopes to obtain a
result by 
this way of practice. However, this is not the right condition
for knowing 
the truth of non-self of realities; it is not the way to know
all 
realities thoroughly. Someone may select an object and fix his
attention on 
that object since he believes that he has such or such
temperament and 
that he should therefore develop this particular Application of 
Mindfulness. At that moment he neglects awareness of all the
objects he is 
used to taking for self. Of what temperament is a person when
attachment 
arises, when aversion arises or when ignorance arises? All these

realities are non-self, anatta. Therefore, the wrong view of
self cannot be 
eradicated by selecting an object someone believes is suitable
for his 
temperament. It is true that in the development of samatha the
object of 
meditation is selected in accordance with someones character.
By the 
development of samatha defilements are subdued so that calm
increases. 
However, the development of vipassan is different from the
development 
of samatha and it has a different aim, namely, the eradication
of 
ignorance. Ignorance of realities conditions the wrong view
which takes 
realities for self.

Therefore, in the development of satipatthana there 
should not be any selection of objects of understanding. In the
Path of 
Discrimination(Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1, Section 1, All),
it has 
been said:

Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is all 
that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly known,
visible object 
is to be directly known, eye-consciousness... eye-contact... any

feeling that arises with eye-contact as its condition whether
pleasant or 
painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is also to be directly
known... 


Further on all realities are summed up and it is said that all
of them 
should be known thoroughly, not any reality is excepted. 

But Sawong: 
The venerable Patriarch wishes to express his appreciation,
anumodana, 
to the Thai Buddhists who are a large group brought here by
Mother 
Sujin, and who have come to Cambodia to support Buddhism. People
here 
listen to the Dhamma now with great joy and happiness. The
Patriarch 
considers himself as the host receiving his guests who bring
along the noble 
Truths. He wishes to apologize if there is anything lacking or
anything 
which is not as it should be.


Everybody begins to understand the subject of maha-satipatthaa.
They try to 
grasp the meaning of satipatthana and thus they ask questions
all the 
time about this subject. If there are questions which are not
suitable I 
also wish to apologize to Mother Sujin. 

As the host, the Patriarch 
extends his blessings to everybody of this group and expresses
his 
thankfulness.
-

 In palistudy@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> You are asking the hardest question for
> satipatthana.No one i met know the answer.From U.
> prof. to forest monks.I did ask mahasi sayadaw 's best
> known teachers,they avoided  me directly.In handbook
> of mediatation by nyanaponika-he mentioned mahasi's
> teacher cannot understand satipatthana sutta,maybe he
> read the com and just couldn't understand it at
> all.Com cannot be wrong in this comment but maybe in
> some words grammar,history.
> Why  emerging from citta /dhamma cannot work for
> sariputta /moggallana who is samatha yanika better in
> feeling for sariputta,dhatu /inferior for moggalana
> .Why dhamma and citta cannot work for buddha's best
> students.Unthinkable for me until this moment for at
> least ten years!Hopefully not like this forever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
> <robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:
> > Dear Teng kee,
> >  you wrote:
> > 
> > ---Dear Jonothan,
> > You said any 4 objects can be done for anyone.Please
> > beware that
> > com said 
> > kaya and vedana for samathayanika /craving people
> > but citta and
> > dhamma for 
> > sukkhavipassaka /viewing people.
> > ______
> > I think we have to look at a few areas here. In the
> > visuddhmagga
> > (I don't have it with me) I think I saw a section
> > where it says
> > that the differnt types of people is a general
> > classification
> > and in fact everyone has all the bad traits in
> > varying degrees.
> > 
> > Here is a section from another commentary: 
> > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph
> > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of the
> > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes
> > place
> > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior
> > to
> > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one
> > consciousness and with others feeling etc." 
> > 
> > If anyone has further commets I would be interested.
> > robert
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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313
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:50am
Subject: Re: Re: choosing satipatthana
Dear Robert,
We are living in the sasana period where the teachers
are not ariya fruition people. In com ,you can find a
lot of stories whereby teachers choosing subjects for
the students esp. in sri lanka monk stories.That is
why in digha nikaya buddha said teacher without
fruiton is inferior.we are clearly in the period of
losing of patipati day by day until 3000 buddhist era.
I like to add that emerge from kasina
jhana,brahmavihara jhana .anusatti etc are in
satipatthana too because in samyutta nikaya -buddha
said all asekha/sekha ariya people is
practising/dwelling in satipathana.So we cannot said
samathayanika is only emerge from vedana
anussati,sariputta could be emerge from kasina while
listening to buddha like culapatthanka did .
It is not mentioned because satipatthana sutta is only
for 5 khandha but kasina etc are concept.




-- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> Dear Teng kee,
> Yes, it is a perplexing one where the commentaries
> seem to have 
> different conclusions. I think we can see that for
> some of us some 
> aspects of nama and rupa are easier (relatively) to
> comprehend 
> directly than others. I find rupa as vanayatana
> gradually becomes a 
> little more known as it is; but nama  hardly at all.
> It shows my 
> accumulations, my type. But if I try to choose a
> foundation based on 
> this wouldn't there be an idea of control. Sometimes
> lobha is very 
> apparent and then it is clear that the foundation at
> that moment is 
> citta  but I wouldn't conclude from that I should
> take citta as my 
> sole foundation.?
> . The Sangha raja of Cambodia questioned Tan Ajarn
> Sujin on this in 
> December:
> 
> 
> Sujin:Thus, the study on the level of theoretical
> knowledge of the
> Dhamma 
> (pariyatti) is the study of the names of realities.
> At that
> level the 
> characteristics of realities do not appear to panna.
> Panna
> should be 
> developed stage by stage so that the true nature of
> realities
> can be 
> directly known.
> 
> But Sawong: The venerable Head Patriarch has some
> questions. If 
> it is true that one cannot choose or select any
> object for the
> practice 
> of satipatthana, how do you explain that, as we read
> in the 
> commentaries, objects are selected in accordance
> with a persons
> temperament or 
> character, such as a greedy temperament (tanh
> carita) or a
> speculative 
> temperament (di""hi carita) 7 . Furthermore, some
> people have
> samatha as 
> their vehicle, they have developed tranquillity and
> insight, and
> some 
> have vipassan as their vehicle, they have developed
> only
> vipassan. In 
> the Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta a city with
> four gates
> has 
> been compared to nibbana, and it has been explained
> that just as
> people 
> can enter a city with four gates by anyone of these
> gates, one
> can attain 
> enlightenment by means of anyone of the four
> applications of 
> mindfulness, mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of
> citta and
> of dhammas. How do 
> we have to understand this?
> 
> Sujin: Usually when people read in the 
> scriptures about these subjects they desire to know
> more about
> this, or 
> they desire to act in a particular way. When they
> hear about
> different 
> temperaments, such as a person of an intelligent
> temperament, a 
> ruminating temperament, or a hateful temperament,
> they think of
> themselves as 
> having such or such temperament and they choose a
> particular way
> of 
> development which suits their character. However, in
> reality
> this subject of 
> the Dhamma has been taught so that it is a condition
> for the
> arising of 
> panna that knows the truth. Only when one develops
> satipatthana
> panna
> can arise and then a person can know what character
> or
> temperament he 
> has. Without the development of satipatthana he does
> not know
> realities 
> and he can only guess what kind of temperament he
> has. There are
> 
> qualities such as attachment, aversion, ignorance,
> and also
> panna, 
> understanding of the Dhamma. What temperament do we
> have? This
> is only thinking 
> and guessing. Everybody has these dhammas. Only when
> panna
> arises and 
> sati is aware we can know the truth about the
> different
> characters of 
> each individual, we can know how our accumulated
> inclinations
> are the 
> condition for our own temperament. 
> 
> Someone may guess about his 
> temperament and he may believe that he should
> develop a
> particular object among 
> the four Applications of Mindfulness. He hopes to
> obtain a
> result by 
> this way of practice. However, this is not the right
> condition
> for knowing 
> the truth of non-self of realities; it is not the
> way to know
> all 
> realities thoroughly. Someone may select an object
> and fix his
> attention on 
> that object since he believes that he has such or
> such
> temperament and 
> that he should therefore develop this particular
> Application of 
> Mindfulness. At that moment he neglects awareness of
> all the
> objects he is 
> used to taking for self. Of what temperament is a
> person when
> attachment 
> arises, when aversion arises or when ignorance
> arises? All these
> 
> realities are non-self, anatta. Therefore, the wrong
> view of
> self cannot be 
> eradicated by selecting an object someone believes
> is suitable
> for his 
> temperament. It is true that in the development of
> samatha the
> object of 
> meditation is selected in accordance with someones
> character.
> By the 
> development of samatha defilements are subdued so
> that calm
> increases. 
> However, the development of vipassan is different
> from the
> development 
> of samatha and it has a different aim, namely, the
> eradication
> of 
> ignorance. Ignorance of realities conditions the
> wrong view
> which takes 
> realities for self.
> 
> Therefore, in the development of satipatthana there 
> should not be any selection of objects of
> understanding. In the
> Path of 
> Discrimination(Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1,
> Section 1, All),
> it has 
> been said:
> 
> Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is
> all 
> that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly
> known,
> visible object 
> is to be directly known, eye-consciousness...
> eye-contact... any
> 
> feeling that arises with eye-contact as its
> condition 
=== message truncated ===




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314
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:23am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
Dear Tadao, Num and friends,

Another amendment on Buddhism in Thailand:  Jim has sent me this 
reference material, (I hope you don't mind my quoting you, Jim); 'I'm 
hardly familiar with the spread of Buddhism into Southeast Asia. King 
Asoka (3rd cent. BCE) is said to have sent two missionary monks to a 
country called Suvannabhumi which some say is Burma, others Thailand, 
and others a larger region. Just from a quick glance through one of my 
books, it is proven by archaeological finds at Pong Tuk and Phra 
Pathom just to the west of BKK that Buddhism was flourishing in 
Thailand as far back as the first or second cent. CE. or earlier. The 
Sasanavamsa might have more to say about the two missionaries, Sona & 
Uttara, that Asoka sent.'

In Thailand we call our country 'Laem Tong' the "golden peninsula" 
from way back when, as well as 'Suvannabhumi' and there are cities 
like Ang tong "golden basin" and Uu Tong "home or source of gold" and 
other places such as the recent land scam by the Dhammakaya leader 
that had 'bought' land with gold on it, in his own name out of 
contributions to his temple.  

In any case there were no 'Buddha rupa' or images prior to the 
Dvaravati period, which is introduced by the Mon, according to the 
Siam Society studies, before that there were only footprints and 
chedis and other styles of temples.  Actually I've never seen any 
Buddha image in any tradition that could equal the description of the 
Buddha's great good looks, so I wonder if it was such a good idea to 
make Buddha images, much less worship house poles, although the high 
roof is a beautiful structure.  Not that I don't love my family's 
great Dvaravati image dearly, having seen him since I opened my eyes, 
but that is for other reasons entirely.

According to the Atthagatha Vinaya Pitaka, Mahavibhanga, Pathama 
Samantapasadika, Sending the Thera to Proclaim the Sasana in Foreign 
Lands. After the 3rd council, supported by Asoka, 234-235 years after 
the Buddha's parinibbana, a number of Thera were sent to different 
countries, at the head of a group of five monks each (since to perform 
ordination there needed to be at least 5 bhikkhu), two groups of which 
was sent to Suvannabhumi, with Sona & Uttara at their heads.  
Interestingly to all the other countries there were only one group of 
monks, but the Suvannabhumi, was the only case where two groups were 
sent.  Perhaps in their infinite jhana powers of the selfless arahanta 
they were able to predict that two major countries will remain 
Buddhists until long after the sasana died down in India, in this 
area.

Thank you Tadao for raising the subject, and Jim for pointing me to 
the right sources to expand the study, and of course dear Betty for 
the Mon notes, I learned a lot personally!

Amara



--- In palistudy@y..., "Amara" <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> Dear Tadao,
> 
> Are you ever going to love this!!!  This is from Betty, just now.  
> Some great things I didn't know about myself!  And to think that I 
am 
> a member of the Siam Society (though I haven't been there for a long 
> time), as my father had been! (he probably would have known all 
this!)
> 
> Thanks for the question which gave me the opportunity to learn with 
> you, 
> 
> Amara
> 
> *********************
> *********************
> 
> 
> Hi, Amara,
> OK, here's a bit about the Mons, the progenitors of SEAsian culture, 
> especially Thai and Burmese.
>  
> They are a rather old people who lived in the central area between 
> Pegu, Burma (I refuse to call it Myanmar) and Nakorn Pathom in 
> Thailand. Today, most of them live in Thailand, having escaped from 
> the perennial persecution they have always received from Burma. Many 
> Mon communities can be found in Pakkret, Ratburi and Kanchanaburi, 
> among others. And, if one visits their excellent museum in Ratburi, 
> you will see lots of evidence of Mon culture and the efforts to keep 
> it alive. Most Mon still speak their language at home, keep their 
> customs and pass on the spoken and written languages to their 
> children, even though they are "Thai." 
>  
> When we visited the village, it was situated just next to the 
village 
> with the Mon museum. Monks in the temple there chanted in Mon 
instead 
> of Pali and each house had a special shrine with flowers and baskets 
> placed around the most important "house pole" or piling. I was given 
> the honor of sleeping in the room which shared that same pole and 
was 
> thus considered the best room in the house. The food was Thai 
although 
> they also had Mon names for most of the dishes. But, other than that 
> they spoke the language at home, studied Mon writing, and respected 
> the "house pole", there were few Mon customs to distinguish them 
from 
> the Thais. Most of the children are so well assimilated that many of 
> their old customs are dying out, except for the efforts to keep the 
> spoken language alive.
>  
> It is believed that in the 6th c. AD they had a flourishing 
> civilization, called Dvaravati, that probably centered in Nakorn 
> Pathom and included most of modern day Thailand and southern Burma. 
> All the artifacts found from that long lost civilization point to 
that
> conclusion. A few of their contributions:
>  
> Theirs was the first Theravada Buddhist civilization in the area. 
> Artifacts found include numerous "Wheels of the Law" in which the 
> Buddha set in motion the path of purification, the Dhamma, through 
> which one would gain increasing wisdom that would help dispel 
> defilements: lobha, dhosa and moha.  It is believed that the firm 
> foundation they established for Buddhism may have been a major 
factor 
> in keeping northern SEAsia Buddhist after the coming of Islam to 
> "island" SEAsia (Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) Their architectural 
style 
> is evident in Burma, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia: the distinctive 
> tiered roofs are their gift to us. A host of words in the Thai 
> language are of Mon origin, e.g., kanom jeen, with jeen having first 
> thought to have meant Chinese, is actually from Mon (sorry, I can't 
> find the source and the original meaning of that word). 
>  
> The Siam Society published an excellent book on them, called The 
Mons, 
> which gives their history, culture, customs, etc. Right now my copy 
is 
> packed away awaiting finishing the construction of "my room", but if 
> you call up the Siam Society, you can probably order a copy from 
them.
>  
> Hope this is at least a beginning for your friend who is interested 
in 
> this fascinating civilization and people.
>  
> With metta,
> Betty
>  
>  
>  
> __________________________
> Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
> 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
> Bangkok 10900, Thailand
> tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
> beyugala@k...


 
315
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 6:14pm
Subject: Re: Re: choosing satipatthana
Dear Teng kee,
Thanks for this. I think most of the places where teachers are
choosing objects is for objects of samattha? In those days there
were still the types of arahants who could compass the minds of
others and have a better idea of the tendencies of their
students perhaps?
Of course the decline in the sasana is very apparent; wrong
views and practices seem to be increasing everyday. We can
witness on dsg how hard it is to even establish the most basic
level of correct understanding, let alone higher levels.

I agree ,  that , as you say :"I like to add that emerge from
kasina
> jhana,brahmavihara jhana .anusatti etc are in
> satipatthana too because in samyutta nikaya -buddha
> said all asekha/sekha ariya people is
> practising/dwelling in satipathana.So we cannot said
> samathayanika is only emerge from vedana
> anussati,sariputta could be emerge from kasina while
> listening to buddha like culapatthanka did .""
Yes this is all clear from the commentaries.
However, now is the time when  the lowest path, that of the dry
insight worker should be stressed. In the netti it notes that
the buddha taught insight alone to those who are have 'blunt'
faculties- the slow ones like all of us at this stage of the
sasana.
Dear Jim ,
I hope this discussion is not too distrating from the aim of
psg?
robert



--- Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> We are living in the sasana period where the teachers
> are not ariya fruition people. In com ,you can find a
> lot of stories whereby teachers choosing subjects for
> the students esp. in sri lanka monk stories.That is
> why in digha nikaya buddha said teacher without
> fruiton is inferior.we are clearly in the period of
> losing of patipati day by day until 3000 buddhist era.
> > It is not mentioned because satipatthana sutta is only
> for 5 khandha but kasina etc are concept.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- robertkirkpatrick@r... wrote:
> > Dear Teng kee,
> > Yes, it is a perplexing one where the commentaries
> > seem to have 
> > different conclusions. I think we can see that for
> > some of us some 
> > aspects of nama and rupa are easier (relatively) to
> > comprehend 
> > directly than others. I find rupa as vanayatana
> > gradually becomes a 
> > little more known as it is; but nama  hardly at all.
> > It shows my 
> > accumulations, my type. But if I try to choose a
> > foundation based on 
> > this wouldn't there be an idea of control. Sometimes
> > lobha is very 
> > apparent and then it is clear that the foundation at
> > that moment is 
> > citta  but I wouldn't conclude from that I should
> > take citta as my 
> > sole foundation.?
> > . The Sangha raja of Cambodia questioned Tan Ajarn
> > Sujin on this in 
> > December:
> > 
> > 
> > Sujin:Thus, the study on the level of theoretical
> > knowledge of the
> > Dhamma 
> > (pariyatti) is the study of the names of realities.
> > At that
> > level the 
> > characteristics of realities do not appear to panna.
> > Panna
> > should be 
> > developed stage by stage so that the true nature of
> > realities
> > can be 
> > directly known.
> > 
> > But Sawong: The venerable Head Patriarch has some
> > questions. If 
> > it is true that one cannot choose or select any
> > object for the
> > practice 
> > of satipatthana, how do you explain that, as we read
> > in the 
> > commentaries, objects are selected in accordance
> > with a persons
> > temperament or 
> > character, such as a greedy temperament (tanh
> > carita) or a
> > speculative 
> > temperament (di""hi carita) 7 . Furthermore, some
> > people have
> > samatha as 
> > their vehicle, they have developed tranquillity and
> > insight, and
> > some 
> > have vipassan as their vehicle, they have developed
> > only
> > vipassan. In 
> > the Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta a city with
> > four gates
> > has 
> > been compared to nibbana, and it has been explained
> > that just as
> > people 
> > can enter a city with four gates by anyone of these
> > gates, one
> > can attain 
> > enlightenment by means of anyone of the four
> > applications of 
> > mindfulness, mindfulness of the body, of feeling, of
> > citta and
> > of dhammas. How do 
> > we have to understand this?
> > 
> > Sujin: Usually when people read in the 
> > scriptures about these subjects they desire to know
> > more about
> > this, or 
> > they desire to act in a particular way. When they
> > hear about
> > different 
> > temperaments, such as a person of an intelligent
> > temperament, a 
> > ruminating temperament, or a hateful temperament,
> > they think of
> > themselves as 
> > having such or such temperament and they choose a
> > particular way
> > of 
> > development which suits their character. However, in
> > reality
> > this subject of 
> > the Dhamma has been taught so that it is a condition
> > for the
> > arising of 
> > panna that knows the truth. Only when one develops
> > satipatthana
> > panna
> > can arise and then a person can know what character
> > or
> > temperament he 
> > has. Without the development of satipatthana he does
> > not know
> > realities 
> > and he can only guess what kind of temperament he
> > has. There are
> > 
> > qualities such as attachment, aversion, ignorance,
> > and also
> > panna, 
> > understanding of the Dhamma. What temperament do we
> > have? This
> > is only thinking 
> > and guessing. Everybody has these dhammas. Only when
> > panna
> > arises and 
> > sati is aware we can know the truth about the
> > different
> > characters of 
> > each individual, we can know how our accumulated
> > inclinations
> > are the 
> > condition for our own temperament. 
> > 
> > Someone may guess about his 
> > temperament and he may believe that he should
> > develop a
> > particular object among 
> > the four Applications of Mindfulness. He hopes to
> > obtain a
> > result by 
> > this way of practice. However, this is not the right
> > condition
> > for knowing 
> > the truth of non-self of realities; it is not the
> > way to know
> > all 
> > realities thoroughly. Someone may select an object
> > and fix his
> > attention on 
> > that object since he believes that he has such or
> > such
> > temperament and 
> > that he should therefore develop this particular
> > Application of 
> > Mindfulness. At that moment he neglects awareness of
> > all the
> > objects he is 
> > used to taking for self. Of what temperament is a
> > person when
> > attachment 
> > arises, when aversion arises or when ignorance
> > arises? All these
> > 
> > realities are non-self, anatta. Therefore, the wrong
> > view of
> > self cannot be 
> > eradicated by selecting an object someone believes
> > is suitable
> > for his 
> > temperament. It is true that in the development of
> > samatha the
> > object of 
> > meditation is selected in accordance with someones
> > character.
> > By the 
> > development of samatha defilements are subdued so
> > that calm
> > increases. 
> > However, the development of vipassan is different
> > from the
> > development 
> > of samatha and it has a different aim, namely, the
> > eradication
> > of 
> > ignorance. Ignorance of realities conditions the
> > wrong view
> > which takes 
> > realities for self.
> > 
> > Therefore, in the development of satipatthana there 
> > should not be any selection of objects of
> > understanding. In the
> > Path of 
> > Discrimination(Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1,
> > Section 1, All),
> > it has 
> > been said:
> > 
> > Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is
> > all 
> > that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly
> > known,
> > visible object 
> > is to be directly known, eye-consciousness...
> > eye-contact... any
> > 
> > feeling that arises with eye-contact as its
> > condition 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
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>  
> 
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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316
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 10:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: choosing satipatthana
Dear Robert,

>However, now is the time when  the lowest path, that of the dry
>insight worker should be stressed. In the netti it notes that
>the buddha taught insight alone to those who are have 'blunt'
>faculties- the slow ones like all of us at this stage of the
>sasana.

Can you give me a reference in The Guide (or Netti) for the above?

>Dear Jim ,
>I hope this discussion is not too distrating from the aim of
>psg?
>robert

It's an interesting discussion but I think it is one that properly belongs
on dsg rather than here. However, since it is now here you can continue on
with it if you like and let it run its course. Just don't get into the habit
of bringing such discussions over from dsg unless it's Pali related. There
have also been some other recent messages you posted that I thought were out
of place on psg. The 'Does anyone want to answer?' message. Also, the two
'Puggala Pannatti for Teng Kee' messages could just as well have been sent
off-list to the parties involved. The list is unmoderated so you can post
anything you like but I would prefer that we all use some discretion and
consider the appropriateness of what we post to a list like this.

I don't mind the occasional digression.

Best wishes,
Jim


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317
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Khun Amara:
I am sorry for my slow responce to your educational messages.
(Now, it is the busiest time of a year for me, finishing off the summer
session and preparing for the coming new academic year which starts
in a few week time.)
Thank you for educating me more on the Thai cultures.
Sila-pata-paramaasa can be observed not only in the Thai culuture but also
in any culture, indicating that the Paramaasa must be the physical/social
manifestation of the weakness of our human minds.
tadao
P.S. How is your mother doing? (In my Bangkok era (when I used to
read lots of suttas) whenever I came across the name of Upasika Visaka,
I used to project an image of your mother on Visaka.)
 
318
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Khun Amara:
Thank you very much for passing me Betty's interesting description on
the Mon. It is in fact a couple of articles from the Journal of Siam Society
that taught me a few things about the Mon. (Our library has a copy of
the Journal.) I am very pleased to hear that they have been doing
their best to keep their language alive. A language is probably the
most important part of the cultural identity in our society.

Here, I would like to thank Betty.

tadao
P.S. I also didn't know that 'jeen' in 'kanom jeen' was borrowed from
Mon.
 
319
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:15pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Num:
Thank you for your interesting observation on Thai words.
As for the pronunciation of the word "karaoke", we pronounce it
as "ka-ra-o-ke", giving an evenly spaced timing to each "mora".
Unlike Thai and English for which the notion of "syllable" is crucial,
Japanese intonation is to a large extent defined by the notion
of "mora", which creates an overall prosodic impression of a
word/phrase/sentence sounding like a slow machine gun.
(So, a Japanese business man learning Thai may say:
pho-mu cho-o-pu ka-ra-o-ke.)
It's getting late here. Good nigtht (ra-a-ti-i sa-wa), Num
tadao
 
320
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Khun Amara:
Yes, I am aware of the Suvanna-Bhumi contraversy.
(Sorry to say this, but, Thai Buddhists and Burmese
counterparts may argue FOREVER on where the actual/
historical region was.)  tadao
 
321
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 1:52am
Subject: Re: Re: choosing satipatthana
Dear Jim,
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> 
> >However, now is the time when  the lowest path, that of the
> dry
> >insight worker should be stressed. In the netti it notes that
> >the buddha taught insight alone to those who are have 'blunt'
> >faculties- the slow ones like all of us at this stage of the
> >sasana.
> 
> Can you give me a reference in The Guide (or Netti) for the
> above?
I don't have the netti with me but there is a section where it
says :the Buddha discloses quiet to those of
keen faculties, quiet and insight to those with medium
faculties and insight alone to one with blunt
faculties.
Blunt is the translation of neyya. Note that at this time of the
sasana there are only neyya and padaparama.
> 
> >Dear Jim ,
> >I hope this discussion is not too distrating from the aim of
> >psg?
> >robert
> 
> It's an interesting discussion but I think it is one that
> properly belongs
> on dsg rather than here. However, since it is now here you can
> continue on
> with it if you like and let it run its course. Just don't get
> into the habit
> of bringing such discussions over from dsg unless it's Pali
> related. There
> have also been some other recent messages you posted that I
> thought were out
> of place on psg. The 'Does anyone want to answer?' message.
> Also, the two
> 'Puggala Pannatti for Teng Kee' messages could just as well
> have been sent
> off-list to the parties involved. The list is unmoderated so
> you can post
> anything you like but I would prefer that we all use some
> discretion and
> consider the appropriateness of what we post to a list like
> this.
> 
> I don't mind the occasional digression.
> 
> --------
Understod Jim. I'm finding it hard to find a suitable place to
discuss serious aspects of Dhamma. I wonder if a small group
based on dsg members who are interested in more than just
debates could be formed?
best wishes
robert

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322
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 3:04am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
--- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Khun Amara:
> Yes, I am aware of the Suvanna-Bhumi contraversy.
> (Sorry to say this, but, Thai Buddhists and Burmese
> counterparts may argue FOREVER on where the actual/
> historical region was.)  tadao

Dear Khun Tadao,

Perhaps that is why there were two groups sent, in the great wisdom 
of the arahanta of the day?

Amara
 
323
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 7:30am
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Dear Amara,
Have you read in sasanavamsa about buddha statue-seems
like green buddha phra kaew in thailand.What do you
think about that?


--- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> > Hi, Khun Amara:
> > Yes, I am aware of the Suvanna-Bhumi contraversy.
> > (Sorry to say this, but, Thai Buddhists and
> Burmese
> > counterparts may argue FOREVER on where the
> actual/
> > historical region was.)  tadao
> 
> Dear Khun Tadao,
> 
> Perhaps that is why there were two groups sent, in
> the great wisdom 
> of the arahanta of the day?
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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324
From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 8:23am
Subject: Sarah's list
Dear Jim (and all),

I'm just following through and thinking out loud a little here....

 --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> >4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I assume
> >Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) 
> 
> dhammayogaa bhikkhuu & jhaayii bhikkhuu

I'm looking at the Rhys Davids & Stede dict. here....(not quoting)

Jhaayati (vb)- to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over, search for ,
hunt after.....also sugests from (sk- didheti-shine, cinteti - citta)

jhaayana (n)- meditating, practice of meditation (sk-dhyasnyoga)

jhaayin (adj) -(see jhaayati & jhaana) pondering over, intent on: meditative,
self-concentrated, engaged in jhaana practice

presumably jhaayii is nom pl adj of jhaayin?

Do all these terms always refer to s.o. engaged in jhana practice I wonder?
Obviously in the Sutta here, jhaayii bhikkhu were developing jhanas & vipassana
. I can't locate for now the earlier ref. in a sutta we had to jhaayati
(Parinibbana sutta?).

Sarah



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325
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 11:06am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
--- In palistudy@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> Have you read in sasanavamsa about buddha statue-seems
> like green buddha phra kaew in thailand.What do you
> think about that?
> 
> 


Dear Teng Kee, 

I don't have the books at home, but will look it up, thanks for the 
reference.  

In the meantime could you tell us about the passage, perhaps?

Thanks in advance and looking forward very much,

Amara
 


> --- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> > --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> > > Hi, Khun Amara:
> > > Yes, I am aware of the Suvanna-Bhumi contraversy.
> > > (Sorry to say this, but, Thai Buddhists and
> > Burmese
> > > counterparts may argue FOREVER on where the
> > actual/
> > > historical region was.)  tadao
> > 
> > Dear Khun Tadao,
> > 
> > Perhaps that is why there were two groups sent, in
> > the great wisdom 
> > of the arahanta of the day?
> > 
> > Amara
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
 
326
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 10:58am
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Amara:
Perhaphs, they somehow knew that in the future these two countries
would become the main centers of retaining the Dhamma.  tadao
 
327
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 9:51pm
Subject: New Group
Dear Jin ,
Sorry for the distracting message again - this will be the last
one.
As some psg members contacted me saying they would like to join
any new group, I have enrolled you all as members in Abhidhamma.
If I missed ANYONE please contact me. You should get welcome
messages soon. It can be used both as a place to discuss Dhamma
and as an easy way for us to exchange messages. I figure the
list will eventually be capped at 30-50 members. If you know
anyone you would like me to add let me know ( I reserve veto
here).
I won't be saying much for the next month or two and I don't
expect it should get too busy at any time.
best wishes
robert 

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328
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Aug 19, 2001 11:02pm
Subject: Re: New Group
--- In palistudy@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
wrote:
> Dear Jin ,
> Sorry for the distracting message again - this will be the last
> one.
> As some psg members contacted me saying they would like to join
> any new group, I have enrolled you all as members in Abhidhamma.
> If I missed ANYONE please contact me. You should get welcome
> messages soon. It can be used both as a place to discuss Dhamma
> and as an easy way for us to exchange messages. I figure the
> list will eventually be capped at 30-50 members. If you know
> anyone you would like me to add let me know ( I reserve veto
> here).
> I won't be saying much for the next month or two and I don't
> expect it should get too busy at any time.
> best wishes
> robert 


Dear Rob,

Thanks for including me in the automatic enrollment, I hope there will 
be no homework assignments or exams!  Having said that, may I add my

Congratulations, and hope that you will be happy with it,

Much mudita,

Amara
 
329
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 1:17am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
--- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Amara:
> Perhaphs, they somehow knew that in the future these two countries
> would become the main centers of retaining the Dhamma.  tadao

Hi!

Together with Sri Lanka, of course, to whom they sent Asoka's Thera 
son at the head of a group!
=^_^=
Amara


330
From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 6:14am
Subject: Re: Sarah's list
Dear Jim & friends,

I just located your earlier comments (on dsg) ....seems in all cases jhaayatha
or jhayaati refer to samatha and vipassana practice. I may have jumbled the
quotes below in my cut and paste exercise;-)

****************************************
>Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I
>notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses
>'Practice jhana, Ananda'!

I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find that it does not
quite agree with the commentary which includes both samatha and
vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a better translation than
'Practice jhana'.

>> And many special
>> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the
>> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not
>> delay, or you will regret it later."
>
>Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for these last words
>which it may be useful to discuss.

"Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino
ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i 118 (MN
19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think there is any with
Ananda.

Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and
vipassanaa".

"Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195
(there's a bit more just before this)

"Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha
..." -- M iii 302

With the exception of the name Ananda instead of Cunda, the rest of the line
is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the commentarial interpretation
at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason why this did not come
up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the possibility of a vowel
coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only looking for jhaayatha
and that is why I only found two instances instead of three.

******************************************
> 
>  --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> > >4. What is the Pali for 'Scholars and Meditators' in ANV1,46? I assume
> > >Meditators is some form of jhayanti (the verb I think) 
> > 
> > dhammayogaa bhikkhuu & jhaayii bhikkhuu
> 
> I'm looking at the Rhys Davids & Stede dict. here....(not quoting)
> 
> Jhaayati (vb)- to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over, search for ,
> hunt after.....also sugests from (sk- didheti-shine, cinteti - citta)
> 
> jhaayana (n)- meditating, practice of meditation (sk-dhyasnyoga)
> 
> jhaayin (adj) -(see jhaayati & jhaana) pondering over, intent on: meditative,
> self-concentrated, engaged in jhaana practice
> 
> presumably jhaayii is nom pl adj of jhaayin?
> 
> Do all these terms always refer to s.o. engaged in jhana practice I wonder?
> Obviously in the Sutta here, jhaayii bhikkhu were developing jhanas &
> vipassana
> . I can't locate for now the earlier ref. in a sutta we had to jhaayati
> (Parinibbana sutta?).
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 


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331
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 8:55am
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Amara:
But Sri Lankans FIRMLY belive that Gotama Buddha flew to Sri Lanka
with his supernatural power to spread the Dhamma (immediately
after his elightenment).  Please ask you Sri Lankan friend(s) if
they belive the story or not. (It is quite likely that
they would say "YES".)
tadao
 
332
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 11:01pm
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
--- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Amara:
> But Sri Lankans FIRMLY belive that Gotama Buddha flew to Sri Lanka
> with his supernatural power to spread the Dhamma (immediately
> after his elightenment).  Please ask you Sri Lankan friend(s) if
> they belive the story or not. (It is quite likely that
> they would say "YES".)
> tadao


Dear Tadao,

Would that be even before he enlightened the pancavaggiya or his 
family?  What do you think, Gayan?  

Oh, yes, Tadao, may I introduce my young friend Gayan from Sri Lanka! 
 Gayan, Tadao teaches at the University of Victoria, in Canada, was 
ordained in Thailand some thirty years ago; and also stayed in Ceylon 
for a time.  As I remember you once said you were interested in 
ordination, perhaps you would like to ask Tadao about his experiences, 
and about his lay life afterwards.

To go back to our discussion, I must confess that the idea of the 
Buddha flying to different areas of future Buddhist countries, in most 
of which he left footprints, somehow pleases my imagination; it would 
be in keeping with all Buddha having special trees, geographical 
locations, the moon, footprints and stones, to remind people of the 
Dhamma and all the beneficence of Buddhahood.  Yet these seemingly 
'valueless' reminders transcend all else in their qualities of evoking 
the memory or even awareness of the Dhamma, as well as represent the 
greatest teacher that ever walked the earth.  

Just my opinion, my friends,

Amara
 
333
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 11:14pm
Subject: Q&A10 (euthanasia)
Dear friends,

Just to tell you that Q&A10 (euthanasia) has been added to 
<http://www.DhammaStudy.com> , Q&A section, please check it out if you 
have time, and tell us what you think,

Amara
 
334
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 21, 2001 4:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Amara:
I am ignorant of a Buddhist history of Sri Lanka.
But, the story that the Buddha visited Sri Lanka by his
supernatural power may be mentioned either in Chula or
Maha Vamgsa.
Here we need a help from Gayan to clarify the matter.
tadao
 
335
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:09am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
--- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Amara:
> I am ignorant of a Buddhist history of Sri Lanka.
> But, the story that the Buddha visited Sri Lanka by his
> supernatural power may be mentioned either in Chula or
> Maha Vamgsa.
> Here we need a help from Gayan to clarify the matter.
> tadao


Dear Tadao,

You've sparked my interest in history, (although as Tan Ajaan's 
students of course that is still secondary to the Present!!!) and just 
today a new member on dl gave the URL to his website, which contains a 
short page about the history of Buddhism in Bangladesh, that might 
interest you also: <http://watthai.net/bluws/buddhisminbangladesh.htm> 

Enjoy,

Amara
 
336
From: Gayan Karunaratne <asterix7@toughguy.net> 
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:10pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
dear amara and tadao,

>
> Dear Tadao,
>
> Would that be even before he enlightened the pancavaggiya or his
> family?  What do you think, Gayan?
>

well the sri lankan chronicles say that Buddha came 3 times to sri lanka.

1. to calm a dispute between different tribesmen which happened in
'Mahiangana', (an area to the center of SL)
2. to calm another dispute between different tribesmen which happened in
'Nagadipa' ( North of SL)
3. By invitation of a tribal king , in 'Kelaniya' (near the west coast, near
Colombo)

All three of these locations have stupas built.

Well according to the chronicles these happened much after the initial
roaming of Buddha.

On one of these journeys Buddha has set his SriPaada foot print in Mount
Samanala.
(Another print was set in Saudi Arabia, in Mecca, where now Islamics
worship, but I dont remember the full story)

But these informations do not come in Tipitaka.
And of course, theres no rule that tipitaka should contain 'everything' that
happened.

But personally I give the Uppermost position to tipitaka, and what is
outside of it gets a lower position.
I know that it is the same with you amara.

> Oh, yes, Tadao, may I introduce my young friend Gayan from Sri Lanka!

hi Tadao!

>  Gayan, Tadao teaches at the University of Victoria, in Canada, was
> ordained in Thailand some thirty years ago;
>and also stayed in Ceylon
> for a time.  As I remember you once said you were interested in
> ordination, perhaps you would like to ask Tadao about his experiences,
> and about his lay life afterwards.
>

of course , that would be very helpful.( provided that you like to share
,Tadao)

> To go back to our discussion, I must confess that the idea of the
> Buddha flying to different areas of future Buddhist countries, in most
> of which he left footprints, somehow pleases my imagination; it would
> be in keeping with all Buddha having special trees, geographical
> locations, the moon, footprints and stones, to remind people of the
> Dhamma and all the beneficence of Buddhahood.

my imagination too!
Well he is the most worthy role model for any being.
I remember , may be a year back, in India a place or a building was
discovered where the Buddha's body was cremated.
With Caskets of Dhatus which were exactly like the ones which were described
in chronicles.(outward appearence)
It was again a strange but pleasant feeling to get to know again and again
that this great 'helper' was a reality.
Buddha himself has said the places where a buddhist can visit and feel
'pahan samvega'.

>   Yet these seemingly
> 'valueless' reminders transcend all else in their qualities of evoking
> the memory or even awareness of the Dhamma, as well as represent the
> greatest teacher that ever walked the earth.
>

exactly

> Just my opinion, my friends,

looks like mine too,
>


regards
gayan
 
337
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:06pm
Subject: Re: Re: pa.tipatti
Hi, Gayan:
Thank you very much for your reply and I like your saying that
the Buddha is the best role model we've got.
By the way do you live in Columbo?
(I lived in Sri Lanka two and a half years, staying
Vajira-arama in Columbo, the Island Hermitage,
Kar/lugara Aranna, and Kandy (?Udawatta Kera? When I was there
Ven. Bikkhu Nanapoika was living just beside the place).
Sri Lanka is the most beatiful country I've ever visited and
I have so many mental images which I will never never forget.
(I hope that you will regain your peace.)
tadao
 
338
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim and other Pali friends:
Here I have a question on Pali.
The question is from the Dhammapada.
In the verse No 12, there is a use of
ablative/-to, which I cannot quite understand:
    Saara~n ca saarato ~natvaa
    asaara~n ca asaarato,
    "Those who know the real to be real
     and the unreal to be unreal"
     (from Ven. Buddharakkhita's translation)

The "-to" of "saarato" and "asaarato" must be
the ablative case. But does the ablative case have
the function of expressing the notion of "as" or
"to be ---" (in Ven, Buddharakkhita's rendition).
If it does, it is part of the regular use of the
ablative case? Or is this kind of use associated
only with the "-to ablative"?
(The same kind of the ablative use seems to
appears in the verse No 22. Eta.m visesa-to ~natvaa.
But at least here, it may not be impossible to treat
"visesa-to" as an adverbial).
At any rate, does Jim or other Pali friends
like to answer my question? (My Pali is so rusty.)
tadao
 
339
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi Tadao,

These are just my preliminary remarks. I don't have the answers ready at
hand as I'm not too clear on the various uses of the -to affix myself. This
subject came up earlier when Nina and I were trying to understand the -to in
'ubhatobhaagavimutta'. I'm very interested in looking into this affix in
more detail with you. I have all of Panini's sutras on the -tas affix
identified as well as the ones in the Saddaniti which we could investigate.
What I know is that -to also has a locative use and there is a Saddaniti
sutta giving uses in other cases as well with examples. I also believe that
the addition of -to puts the word into the class of indeclinables
(nipaata-s).

Currently, I'm trying to finish off a reply to a translation done by Nina
that she posted here a month ago. I was then about to reply to your
message with the first Padarupasiddhi sutta in it. I think your -to
questions are more urgent so I'll just switch the two around and get a
detailed reply to you within the next few days.

Best wishes,
Jim

>Hi, Jim and other Pali friends:
>Here I have a question on Pali.
>The question is from the Dhammapada.
>In the verse No 12, there is a use of
>ablative/-to, which I cannot quite understand:
>    Saara~n ca saarato ~natvaa
>    asaara~n ca asaarato,
>    "Those who know the real to be real
>     and the unreal to be unreal"
>     (from Ven. Buddharakkhita's translation)
>
>The "-to" of "saarato" and "asaarato" must be
>the ablative case. But does the ablative case have
>the function of expressing the notion of "as" or
>"to be ---" (in Ven, Buddharakkhita's rendition).
>If it does, it is part of the regular use of the
>ablative case? Or is this kind of use associated
>only with the "-to ablative"?
>(The same kind of the ablative use seems to
>appears in the verse No 22. Eta.m visesa-to ~natvaa.
>But at least here, it may not be impossible to treat
>"visesa-to" as an adverbial).
>At any rate, does Jim or other Pali friends
>like to answer my question? (My Pali is so rusty.)
>tadao


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340
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 10:09am
Subject: Re: Nina's transl. co 49. A.N. I 51
Dear Nina,

You wrote:
Dear Jim, I just translate very gradually. I realize that the correction may
be too much work for you. Too many problems, starting with navame, locative?
Later on it is dasame. Where does ya.mki~nci belong? The last sentence I did
is very long. I do not mind if you find corections too time consuming,
meanwhile, I am having a good time with these texts. Shall I go on with the
next parts? By the way, did you receive my vi-particles and translation of
with consciousness unestablished? And I just wanted to know the correct
translation of aparaapariya, thank you very much, Nina.

J: I responded to much of this in my reply dated July 23. Looking back at it
I seem to have overlooked 'aparaapariya' which I thought I had answered but
apparently not. The CPD gives "a series (of rebirths)". Some of your words
are surrounded by a superscript 2 or 3 on my computer screen which I think
probably has to do with a different character set you use on the Mac.
Perhaps they show up as quotation marks on your screen.

navame pabhassaranti pa.n.dara.m parisuddha.m.  cittanti
bhava"ngacitta.m. ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no naama atthiiti?  natthi.

N: As to the ninth (?), luminous. Luminous, pure citta is the
life-continuum. But does this citta have indeed a colourful appearance? No,
it does not have this.

J: navame = in the ninth [sutta: AN I.49]. 'as to' seems okay to me.
pa.n.dara.m & parisuddha.m explain pabhassara.m. I would use a different
translation for pa.n.dara.m (clear?) instead of 'luminous' which is already
used for 'pabhassara.m'. There should be a period after 'pure'
(parisuddha.m) in 'pure citta'. I think 'va.n.no' is just 'colour' (of
visible objects).

J: transl.: "In the ninth <sutta>: 'luminous' is clear, pure. 'mind' is
bhava"ngacitta. But does there exist namely (indeed?) a colour of citta?
No." I'm not sure of the right translation for 'naama' here which is one I
often have trouble with.

niilaadiina~nhi a~n~natarava.n.na.m vaa hotu ava.n.na.m vaa ya.mki~nci
parisuddhataaya ``pabhassara''nti vuccati.

N: Let there be a blue colour or another colour, or no colour, or whatever
it may be, it is called luminous because of it purity.

J: For anything which may be a certain colour of [those] beginning with blue
or without colour because of its purity is called 'luminous'.

J: A 'hi' (for, because -- often seen as the second word) indicates that the
sentence is giving an explanation of 'luminous' and the reason for the
previous statement "No." It says to me that 'pabhassara.m' can be a colour
as say for the sixth one in the sixth-coloured rays ('dazzling' as
translated in The Expositor) or it can be colourless as in the case for
'citta'. It is not clear to me why the accusative ending (-a.m) for
'va.n.no' is used here with 'hotu' which I think should be in the nominative
(-o). Also, I'm unsure of the use of 'hotu' and 'ya.mki~nci' in this
construction and whether 'because of
its purity' extends only to 'without colour' or to the former as well.

idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassara.m. ta~nca khoti ta.m
bhava"ngacitta.m.

N: It is also pure, luminous, because it is unsoiled (by defilements). It is
for sure that life-continuum.

J: I think 'luminous' is in the wrong place (note the 'ti' in 'parisuddhan
ti'). I would put it something like this: "It is also pure because it is
unsoiled (by defilements); thus 'luminous'." Nirupakkilesataa is lit. 'a
state of <being> without defilement(s)'. I thought of a reason for the
'pabhassara.m' at the end might be to show that the commentary on
'pabhassara.m' is now finished. I think you have missed the point of the
next sentence. 'ta~nca kho' is quoted directly from the sutta and the
comment is just to show that the 'ta.m' in 'ta~nca' refers to
'bhava"ngacitta'. It's quite straightforward.

aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi.

N:  by oncoming (defilements).  by those that do not accompany it, but
arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana).

J: I think you might be confusing 'asahajaatehi' (non-conascent) with
'asahagatehi' (unaccompanied).

J: 'by the oncoming <defilements>': by the non-conascent, by the arising at
the moment of impulsion afterwards.

upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkili.t.thattaa  upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati
vuccati.

N: by defilements. By being soiled by desire  etc. it is indeed called
defiled.

J: This seems to be okay, although I'm not quite sure what purpose 'naama'
serves here and whether or not another meaning might be intended. As I
mentioned earlier it's a troublesome word for me. One can see that
'raagaadiihi' (by passion, etc) is what is meant by 'upakkilesehi'. In the
PTS commentary, there is a period after 'raagaadiihi' and the next sentence
has 'upakkili.t.than ti' instead of 'upakili.t.thattaa'. The Burmese and
Thai version both agree with 'upakili.t.thattaa'.

There is still much more left for me to go over but will stop here for now
and continue on with it a little later. I just wanted to post something
before you went away.

Best wishes,
Jim


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341
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 11:35am
Subject: Re: pa.tipatti
--- In palistudy@y..., "Gayan Karunaratne" <asterix7@t...> wrote:
> 
> dear amara and tadao,
> 
> >
> > Dear Tadao,
> >
> > Would that be even before he enlightened the pancavaggiya or his
> > family?  What do you think, Gayan?
> >
> 
> well the sri lankan chronicles say that Buddha came 3 times to sri 
lanka.
> 
> 1. to calm a dispute between different tribesmen which happened in
> 'Mahiangana', (an area to the center of SL)
> 2. to calm another dispute between different tribesmen which 
happened in
> 'Nagadipa' ( North of SL)
> 3. By invitation of a tribal king , in 'Kelaniya' (near the west 
coast, near
> Colombo)
> 
> All three of these locations have stupas built.
> 
> Well according to the chronicles these happened much after the 
initial
> roaming of Buddha.
> 
> On one of these journeys Buddha has set his SriPaada foot print in 
Mount
> Samanala.
> (Another print was set in Saudi Arabia, in Mecca, where now Islamics
> worship, but I dont remember the full story)
> 
> But these informations do not come in Tipitaka.
> And of course, theres no rule that tipitaka should contain 
'everything' that
> happened.
> 
> But personally I give the Uppermost position to tipitaka, and what 
is
> outside of it gets a lower position.
> I know that it is the same with you amara.


Dear Gayan,

Very much so, indeed!!!

 
> > Oh, yes, Tadao, may I introduce my young friend Gayan from Sri 
Lanka!
> 
> hi Tadao!
> 
> >  Gayan, Tadao teaches at the University of Victoria, in Canada, 
was
> > ordained in Thailand some thirty years ago;
> >and also stayed in Ceylon
> > for a time.  As I remember you once said you were interested in
> > ordination, perhaps you would like to ask Tadao about his 
experiences,
> > and about his lay life afterwards.
> >
> 
> of course , that would be very helpful.( provided that you like to 
share
> ,Tadao)
> 
> > To go back to our discussion, I must confess that the idea of the
> > Buddha flying to different areas of future Buddhist countries, in 
most
> > of which he left footprints, somehow pleases my imagination; it 
would
> > be in keeping with all Buddha having special trees, geographical
> > locations, the moon, footprints and stones, to remind people of 
the
> > Dhamma and all the beneficence of Buddhahood.
> 
> my imagination too!
> Well he is the most worthy role model for any being.
> I remember , may be a year back, in India a place or a building was
> discovered where the Buddha's body was cremated.
> With Caskets of Dhatus which were exactly like the ones which were 
described
> in chronicles.(outward appearence)
> It was again a strange but pleasant feeling to get to know again and 
again
> that this great 'helper' was a reality.
> Buddha himself has said the places where a buddhist can visit and 
feel
> 'pahan samvega'.


And don't you feel that as long as the dhatu and the Dhamma are there, 
he is somehow still with us?

Amara
 
> >   Yet these seemingly
> > 'valueless' reminders transcend all else in their qualities of 
evoking
> > the memory or even awareness of the Dhamma, as well as represent 
the
> > greatest teacher that ever walked the earth.
> >
> 
> exactly
> 
> > Just my opinion, my friends,
> 
> looks like mine too,
> >
> 
> 
> regards
> gayan
 
342
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 11:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
Thank you very much for your prompt reply.
If you are willing to investigate the nature of "-to", I
would like to join you. tadao
 
343
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 1:10pm
Subject: -to particle
Hi Jim, Tadao and others. I want to thank Jim very much for his corrections
I shall take them with me on vacation, otherwise I miss Pali too much. Jim,
when you have finished correcting one part, I shall send you the next part
in order to avoid making the same mistakes. I finished puthujano, admiring
Buddhaghosa's style. Puthu: many defilements, looking up to many teachers,
therefore puthujano. Manyfolk is old fashioned, but it keeps the style
better, the many. And then as a refrain all the time: the bhavanga-citta
etc. It is beautiful. Also the part after puthujano is in the Expositor. I
start that after vacation.
The -to particle: I looked it up in  Warder: p. 91: ablative -to, with
reference to, from the standpoint of. And p.100: it can also be locative:
with reference to. It must be similar to the locative used in kaaye
kaayaanupassii. Seeing the body in the body, or with reference to the body.
I am sure there is more to it.
What still puzzles me: vi~n~naana.m: cognizable; from vijaanaati:
vi~n~naata, vi~n~naatabba, but how do we work out vi~n~naana.m?
Nina.
 
344
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:57pm
Subject: Re: Re: Accusatie Case
Hi, Jim:
I am sorry to bother you. Here is a question:
Have you ever examined the nature of Accusative Case?
How many types of acusative case are you aware of?
I only know three: acc. as a object marker, acc. as a
goal (of a motion verb), and acc. as an adverbial.
I've been reading the Dhammapada, and there seems to be
the use of the acc. which does not fit into the above
three categories. Have you found or do you know that the
accusative case has far more functions than we have been
taught in introductory grammar books? I would be appreciative
if you can give a quick/short reply?
tadao


345
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 24, 2001 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Majapahit and Islam
Hi, Betty:
Sometime ago you mentioned that the presence of the
Mon people was (one of) the main reason(s) why
the penunsula SEAsia wasn't overtaken by Islam
while the island SEAsia was overtaken by it.
As you know that histroically Indonesia had two
great powers; one being Srivijaya and the other
Majapahit. Both of these political powers cutivated
(Hinduism and) Mahayana Buddhism. By the 14th century,
however, Majapahit's power embedded due possibly
to the raising of many local rulers, who
established their own lucative trading networks,
(which was part of the international network)
undermining the economic ground of the kingdom.
These local rules all seem to have SO EASILY
adopted Islam as their religion. The question
I would like to ask you is why did these local rulers
adopt Islam? I know that it is very easy for one
to covert to Islam. All one has to do is to profess that
he is a Muslim. This fact does not, however, explain
why these local rules adopted Islam so easily. Do you
know whether at that time in Indonesia there were any
political, economical, social reasons/benefits due to
which these rules converted their religion to Islam?
tadao
 
346
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 1:12am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi Tadao,

I think I may have found the answer to your question. It's a nominative -to,
not an ablative -to. My solution is based on sutta 496 in the Saddaniti and
the Dhammapada com. on the passage in question. This is what I found:

496. Itinaa niddisitabbe to.
           Iti-saddena niddisitabbe pa.thamatthe kvaci to-paccayo hoti:
"di.t.thicaritaa ruupa.m attato upagacchanti [Nett 111]; subhato na.m
ma~n~nati baalo [Sn 199]; aniccato . . . vipassanti [Tikapa.t.thaana 156]."
Tattha attato upagacchantii ti 'attaa' ti ga.nhaati, esa nayo itaratra
pi. -- Saddaniiti p. 681, H.Smith ed.

My translation:
496. -to in what is to be exhibited with the word 'iti'.
            In some cases there is a -to affix in the sense of the first
case [nominative] to be exhibited with the word 'iti': "Those of the
view-temperament approach form as 'self'; a fool thinks of it as
'beautiful'; they see [a faulty state] diversely as 'impermanent' . .
."Therein, [they] approach [form] as 'self': they take [form] to be thus:
'self', this is the method for the other cases too.

Now look at this line in the Dhammapada a.t.thakathaa on verse 12:

asaara.m 'asaaro ayan' ti ~natvaa. -- DhpA I 114 pts
Having known the non-essential [to be] thus: 'this is non-essential'.

It seems that many have been translating 'saara.m' as either truth or real.
I wonder if this is correct because in the commentary we have "siilasaara.m
samaadhisaara.m pa~n~naasaara.m vimuttisaara.m vimutti~naa.na-
dassanasaara.m paramatthasaara.m" in the explanation of 'saara.m'.

I'm not sure if the same Saddaniti rule can also apply to 'visesato' in
verse 22. See DhpA I 229-30 for the explanation there.

This has been a good exercise for me. I had been working on this problem for
two days and then I suddenly found what I think is the right answer. I think
it's a very important and probably a common usage in the Pali texts. So
knowing about it should help us a lot in reading Pali. I think 'as' or 'to
be' is fine for expressing this relation. I would suggest quotation marks
around the word with the -to affix eg: having known the real as 'real'.

Best wishes,
Jim

>Hi, Jim and other Pali friends:
>Here I have a question on Pali.
>The question is from the Dhammapada.
>In the verse No 12, there is a use of
>ablative/-to, which I cannot quite understand:
>    Saara~n ca saarato ~natvaa
>    asaara~n ca asaarato,
>    "Those who know the real to be real
>     and the unreal to be unreal"
>     (from Ven. Buddharakkhita's translation)
>
>The "-to" of "saarato" and "asaarato" must be
>the ablative case.
>But does the ablative case have
>the function of expressing the notion of "as" or
>"to be ---" (in Ven, Buddharakkhita's rendition).

>If it does, it is part of the regular use of the
>ablative case? Or is this kind of use associated
>only with the "-to ablative"?
>(The same kind of the ablative use seems to
>appears in the verse No 22. Eta.m visesa-to ~natvaa.
>But at least here, it may not be impossible to treat
>"visesa-to" as an adverbial).
>At any rate, does Jim or other Pali friends
>like to answer my question? (My Pali is so rusty.)
>tadao


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347
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 1:26am
Subject: Re: Majapahit and Islam
Dear Tadao, 

Betty's not on this list, but I will forward your post to her, 
although she leads a very busy social plus a very warm family life, 
she will answer you as soon as she finds the time, I'm certain.  In 
fact I'll show her this today if she comes to the discussions, looks 
like some fine historical forays coming up for us!

Amara


--- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Betty:
> Sometime ago you mentioned that the presence of the
> Mon people was (one of) the main reason(s) why
> the penunsula SEAsia wasn't overtaken by Islam
> while the island SEAsia was overtaken by it.
> As you know that histroically Indonesia had two
> great powers; one being Srivijaya and the other
> Majapahit. Both of these political powers cutivated
> (Hinduism and) Mahayana Buddhism. By the 14th century,
> however, Majapahit's power embedded due possibly
> to the raising of many local rulers, who
> established their own lucative trading networks,
> (which was part of the international network)
> undermining the economic ground of the kingdom.
> These local rules all seem to have SO EASILY
> adopted Islam as their religion. The question
> I would like to ask you is why did these local rulers
> adopt Islam? I know that it is very easy for one
> to covert to Islam. All one has to do is to profess that
> he is a Muslim. This fact does not, however, explain
> why these local rules adopted Islam so easily. Do you
> know whether at that time in Indonesia there were any
> political, economical, social reasons/benefits due to
> which these rules converted their religion to Islam?
> tadao
 
348
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 10:29am
Subject: Re: Re: Majapahit and Islam
Hi, Amara:
Sorry, I didn't know that Betty is not on the list of the Pali Study
Group. I would like to know if she knows anything about what I've
asked.  tadao
 
349
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 10:35am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
FANTASTIC!  Thank you very much for your research.
So, is it correct to say that the affix /-to/, which is ablative,
can function as nominative in the sense of "iti"? In other words,
/-to/ itself should still be regarded as an ablative case marker,
tadao
 
350
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 10:43am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
Does Saddaniti list all the functions associated with the ablative /-to/?
tadao
 
351
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 11:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
I will reliterate my question on what you have found.
(i) First, it doesn't make sense that we have so-called ablative
case marker /-to/ beside the regugular ablative case endings.
(ii) Historically, the so-called ablative /-to/ must have developed
from a regular word, which has then transformed to be a so-called
 postpostion /-to/, which assumed the ablative sense as its primary
 function.
(iii) The question here is why did the Pali speakers want to
 have the /-to/ postpotion besides the regualr ablative endings.
(iv) My guess is that they needed at least one ending/postposition which
 is flexible in its (case) use (due to a metrical reason?).
(iv) In other words, the so-called ablative /-to/ is not ablative
at all, but should be regarded as a kind of "universal"
case marker.
(v) If the above hypothesis is correct, then, we should be able to
predict the following two findings:
    (a) regualr ablative case endings are used always as their
       ablstive senses
       (so that you would never say/find something
        like: saara.m saarsmaa ~natvaa; meanwhile
    (b) we would be able to find numerous examples of the use of the /-to/
       as an uninversal case marker (functioning as nominative down to
       genetive).
(vi) If both (a) and (b) are supported emperically, then, we can
 conclude that the affix /-to/ should neither be regarded as a mere
 ablative marker, nor be as a case marker (in the sense that
 it is a universal postpositon, foreseeing the future of the end of
 the inflectional languages in India, as being manifested in Hindi
 or Punjab).

 Does my arugment make sense to you?  tadao
 
352
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: Re: Accusatie Case
Hi Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>I am sorry to bother you. Here is a question:
>Have you ever examined the nature of Accusative Case?

I think I might have.

>How many types of acusative case are you aware of?

I'm aware that there are many types (I'm taking your 'types' as 'usages').
But I couldn't describe them to you without first studying the different
usages in some detail.

>I only know three: acc. as a object marker, acc. as a
>goal (of a motion verb), and acc. as an adverbial.

I think I could easily link each one of them to a sutta in the Saddaniti.

>I've been reading the Dhammapada, and there seems to be
>the use of the acc. which does not fit into the above
>three categories. Have you found or do you know that the
>accusative case has far more functions than we have been
>taught in introductory grammar books? I would be appreciative
>if you can give a quick/short reply?
>tadao

I know from a glance at the 11+ suttas involving the second (accusative)
case that there are more uses (functions?) than the three you mention above.
I notice that several of the suttas relate to prefixes. I have the 128
suttas of the kaarakavibhaaga (syntax) chapter in a small etext file that
you might be interested in for reference. It's all in Pali and I have
arranged it and added things for practical use. I'd be glad to email you a
copy if you don't mind it in it's current unfinished state.

Do you have a copy of Panini's Ashtadhyayi? I use S.C. Vasu's two volume
edition. You'll have to wait awhile for answers to your further questions on
the -to affix.

Jim


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353
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:48pm
Subject: Re: Re: Mor on the Ablative /-to/
Hi, Jim:
(i) So, Nina/Warder have found the lacative use of /-to/.
(ii) You have found the nominative use of /-to/.
Here although, according to Saddaniti, it can function as
a nominative case marker. In our Dhammapada example of
saara.m etc., it can be (at least semantically)
interpreted as the accusative marker: i.e.,
"knowing the essense as essense".
(iii) We can easily imagine that the /-to/ would be used
as an instrumental case marker, given the fact that
ablative and instrumental are close in meaning.
(iv) Next, as for genetive, we may be able to find
the use of /-to/ in the sense of the possessed source.
(iv) Given that ablative and dative express rather opposite
notions, I have a doubt that /-to/ can be used as a dative
marker. However, should we be able to find such an instance of
/-to/ as a dative marker, then, we would have to change our
idea of the /-to/ completely. tadao
 
354
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Aug 25, 2001 4:03pm
Subject: Re: Re: Accusatie Case
Hi, Jim:
(i) Could you please send me the copy?
(ii) No, I do not have a copy of Panini's work.
(But I know where I should place an order to
if I would like to.)
tadao
 
355
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:03am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>FANTASTIC!  Thank you very much for your research.
>So, is it correct to say that the affix /-to/, which is ablative,
>can function as nominative in the sense of "iti"? In other words,
>/-to/ itself should still be regarded as an ablative case marker,
>tadao

I think the /to/ in 'saara~nca saarato' should be regarded as a nominative
case marker here rather than an ablative case marker in the function of the
nominative. From my studies so far I think the taddhita affix /to/ should
probably be regarded as a general case marker for the nominative,
instrumental, ablative, genitive, or locative, singular or plural. I haven't
seen anything yet for the accusative or dative uses of the taddhita /to/ in
the Saddaniti. I would say that a word ending in the case marker /to/ can
function as a nominative with "iti". I understand that all words ending with
this affix are classed as indeclinables. An inflected word like 'bhagavato'
also ends in a /to/ but this is a substitute for the dative or genitive
singular case affix /sa/ and is not the same as the taddhita affix /to/ in
indeclinables.

Warder and Geiger seem to mention only an ablative -to in their well-known
books on Pali. Wouldn't this lead many students of Pali to understand the
taddhita /to/ as ablative only without any knowledge of its other possible
uses? It could be that the ablative -to is the one most commonly found in
use and the one to consider first. If it doesn't seem to fit the context
then one should consider other possible case functions.

Your next message:

>Hi, Jim:
>Does Saddaniti list all the functions associated with the ablative /-to/?
>tadao

I don't know. It only gives a couple of general rules and I think it is up
to the individual to make finer distinctions. For example, if one thinks the
/to/ is functioning as an ablative case marker then one could try to find
out the particular use of the ablative that seems applicable. One of the
suttas on the ablative (apaadaana) enumerates 21 different uses. Perhaps the
ablative -to applies to only a limited number of them.

Jim


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356
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
Thank you for your further comments on /-to/. I had firmly belived that
/-to/ is the other way of expressing ablative case than using the
regular ablative case endings, and never thought that it could mark
other cases. It is however, true that (with retrspective) I had had
an uneasy feeling with /-to/ and a neive doubt about its significance
(of being an ablative case marker). (Sanskrit doesn't seem to have
this kind of affixes.) Do you think there is any way we can trace the
etimological origin of /-to/?  I think it is a type of so-called
grammaticalization (i.e., the attribution of a grammatical character
to a once automomous  word). (Do we not have any Prakrit
specilists on the web?)
tadao
 
357
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:08am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>Thank you for your further comments on /-to/. I had firmly belived that
>/-to/ is the other way of expressing ablative case than using the
>regular ablative case endings, and never thought that it could mark
>other cases. It is however, true that (with retrspective) I had had
>an uneasy feeling with /-to/ and a neive doubt about its significance
>(of being an ablative case marker). (Sanskrit doesn't seem to have
>this kind of affixes.) Do you think there is any way we can trace the
>etimological origin of /-to/?  I think it is a type of so-called
>grammaticalization (i.e., the attribution of a grammatical character
>to a once automomous  word). (Do we not have any Prakrit
>specilists on the web?)
>tadao

Sanskrit (and Vedic) has the same affix. I think the best way to trace the
origin of this affix is through older Sanskrit works. It is thought that the
Vedas are quite ancient (as far back as 1500 BCE) and I think Panini's
grammar is pre-3rd cent. BCE. The Pali taddhita affix /-to/ corresponds to
the Sanskrit taddhita affix /-tas/ which occurs also in the Rgveda (eg. ato
bhuuya.h). In Panini's Astadhyayi this affix is represented by /tasi/ and
/tasil/. The -i and -il  at the end are indicatory letters which are
dropped. The uses of these two affixes are described in the following 13
sutras:

tasi
IV.III.113-4 in the sense of "in the same direction with that" (tenaikadik)
V.IV.44-5 ablative; 46-7 instrumental; 48-9 genitive

tasil (after kim, most pronouns, bahu, pari, abhi)
V.III.7-9 ablative; 13 locative; 14 all remaining cases

I don't know if there are any Prakrit specialists on the web. One would have
to do some searching to find out.

Best wishes,
Jim



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358
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
Thank you for your further clarification on the issue.
I didn't know that Saskskrit/Vedic also have the endings
which correspond to the Pali /-to/. It's again interesting
to see that the Saskrit /tas/ is felexible in case selections.
tadao
 
359
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:36pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>I will reliterate my question on what you have found.
>(i) First, it doesn't make sense that we have so-called ablative
>case marker /-to/ beside the regugular ablative case endings.

Agreed.

>(ii) Historically, the so-called ablative /-to/ must have developed
>from a regular word, which has then transformed to be a so-called
> postpostion /-to/, which assumed the ablative sense as its primary
> function.

It seems unlikely to me that this affix originated from a word.

>(iii) The question here is why did the Pali speakers want to
> have the /-to/ postpotion besides the regualr ablative endings.
>(iv) My guess is that they needed at least one ending/postposition which
> is flexible in its (case) use (due to a metrical reason?).
>(iv) In other words, the so-called ablative /-to/ is not ablative
>at all, but should be regarded as a kind of "universal"
>case marker.

Agreed.

>(v) If the above hypothesis is correct, then, we should be able to
>predict the following two findings:
>    (a) regualr ablative case endings are used always as their
>       ablstive senses
>       (so that you would never say/find something
>        like: saara.m saarsmaa ~natvaa; meanwhile

I think the following sutta from the Saddaniti shows that ablative case
endings aren't always used in their ablative senses:

657 sahasaddhi.myoge tatiyatthe kvaci pa~ncamii.

"In some cases the fifth (ablative) in the sense of the third (instrumental)
in combination with 'saha' and 'saddhi.m'.

You can also see from a look at the suttas that there is a surprising amount
of overlapping among the cases -- cases used in the sense of other cases and
the same usage being capable expression by two or more cases.

>    (b) we would be able to find numerous examples of the use of the /-to/
>       as an uninversal case marker (functioning as nominative down to
>       genetive).

The Astadhyayi and Saddaniti give examples in support of this.

>(vi) If both (a) and (b) are supported emperically, then, we can
> conclude that the affix /-to/ should neither be regarded as a mere
> ablative marker, nor be as a case marker (in the sense that
> it is a universal postpositon, foreseeing the future of the end of
> the inflectional languages in India, as being manifested in Hindi
> or Punjab).
>
> Does my arugment make sense to you?  tadao

Sorry, your argument doesn't make complete sense to me. It appears that (a)
is not supported but (b) is. I thought that /-to/ could be a kind of
universal case marker (from iv above). I agree that it shouldn't be regarded
as a mere ablative marker.

Jim


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360
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 4:27pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
So, are you saying that any case endings can possible mark (at least)
a few different cases and that the /-to/ is slightly exceptional in
the sense that it can mark more than a few cases?
tadao
P.S. I can see your previous claim that the Sanskrit /tas/ corresponds
to the Pali /-to/, given the fact that the Sanksrit /as/ (or /a.h/)
are regulary/surfacely realized as /o/.
 
361
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:33am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Jim,
Why you mention to as a taddhita affix.There is no to
as tadhita in 3 major grammar texts.It appears in nama
section only.It should be called vibhattipaccaya .

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362
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:34am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>So, are you saying that any case endings can possible mark (at least)
>a few different cases and that the /-to/ is slightly exceptional in
>the sense that it can mark more than a few cases?
>tadao

Not quite. From looking at some of the suttas in 588-661 in the Saddaniti
one can see that some cases can also function in the sense of some other
cases (with some restrictions). I have not done any detailed study on this
so it is a little difficult for me to accurately express this feature of
case usage. The case endings and their substitutes in nominal words are in a
different category from the affix /-to/ in the function of a universal case
ending and forming indeclinables. It is more like the affixes tra, tha, daa,
etc. found in tatra, tattha, tadaa, etc. but these affixes unlike /-to/ are
more limited in scope.

>P.S. I can see your previous claim that the Sanskrit /tas/ corresponds
>to the Pali /-to/, given the fact that the Sanksrit /as/ (or /a.h/)
>are regulary/surfacely realized as /o/.

A good example is the one I mentioned earlier from the Rgveda: ato bhuuya.h
(more than that). I'm not sure if I'm correct in thinking that /-to/ is not
likely to have been originally a word. I'm wondering if it can be linked to
the English preposition "to". The Concise Oxford English dictionary gives
its first meaning as: "1. In the direction of (place, person, thing,
condition, quality, etc.) with or without implication of intention or
arrival." which seems like a possible match for the use of Sanskrit /-tas/
in Panini IV.III.113-4 in the sense of "in the same direction with that"
(tenaikadik) -- instrumental. Also COD: "2. as far as, not short of" & "3.
(of comparison, . . .)" point to its ablative uses. I'm not sure of 4. but
5. with the indirect object & 6. with the to-infinitive -- point to its
dative uses. I thought perhaps the /-to/ could have got separated and became
a word in itself in the Germanic languages. Or was it the other way around
and got tacked on in Sankrit and Pali?

Jim


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363
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Teng Kee,

>Dear Jim,
>Why you mention to as a taddhita affix.There is no to
>as tadhita in 3 major grammar texts.It appears in nama
>section only.It should be called vibhattipaccaya .

I agree with you that the /-to/ affix is described in the namakappa of the
Saddaniti and is not found in the taddhitakappa section (at least the index
doesn't show any there). However, Panini includes this affix in the taddhita
part of his grammar and like the Saddaniti calls it a vibhakti (V.III.1). In
the Saddaniti index of affixes, substitutes, etc. the compiler labels /to/
as: t sp (t=taddhita, sp=case ending which I think is a mistake). For these
reasons I assumed that it was a taddhita and thought the /to/ was in the
taddhita chapter not the nama chapter until you pointed this out. (I had
overlooked the placement of these chapters.) I'll henceforth avoid referring
to /to/ as a taddhita. I understand now that there are three classes of
vibhatti-s: syaadayo, tyaadayo, & tvaadayo (-to not -tvaa). Thanks.

Jim


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364
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 3:40pm
Subject: Re: Pali Background?
Hi, Ong Teng Kee:
So, I've found another Pali scholar.
My name is Tadao Miyamoto; I studied Pali when I stayed in SEAsia
as a Buddhist monk. I am very eager to know your Pali background.
tadao
 
365
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 11:15pm
Subject: Re: Majapahit and Islam
Dear Tadao, and friends,

Betty tells me she is leaving today on a trip to the Samarkhan area 
with her husband and their group so will probably not be able to write 
about the Majapahit for us for a while, though I will remind her about 
it when she gets back

From what she tells me during our last conversation is that it was 
during the 16thC AD and the spice trades of the time that the Moslem 
powers spread in the islands where the spice came from, since the 
Moslem traders (or their religious advisers ) imposed their beliefs on 
the islanders who wanted to trade with them!  An interesting aspect of 
religious propagation, I think!

Does this agree with what you have read, Tadao?  I should really like 
to find out more, could you tell us about it while Betty is touring 
Uzbekistan?  (Samarkhan still evokes the capital of the world to me!)

Amara



--- In palistudy@y..., "Amara" <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> Dear Tadao, 
> 
> Betty's not on this list, but I will forward your post to her, 
> although she leads a very busy social plus a very warm family life, 
> she will answer you as soon as she finds the time, I'm certain.  In 
> fact I'll show her this today if she comes to the discussions, looks 
> like some fine historical forays coming up for us!
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> --- In palistudy@y..., ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> > Hi, Betty:
> > Sometime ago you mentioned that the presence of the
> > Mon people was (one of) the main reason(s) why
> > the penunsula SEAsia wasn't overtaken by Islam
> > while the island SEAsia was overtaken by it.
> > As you know that histroically Indonesia had two
> > great powers; one being Srivijaya and the other
> > Majapahit. Both of these political powers cutivated
> > (Hinduism and) Mahayana Buddhism. By the 14th century,
> > however, Majapahit's power embedded due possibly
> > to the raising of many local rulers, who
> > established their own lucative trading networks,
> > (which was part of the international network)
> > undermining the economic ground of the kingdom.
> > These local rules all seem to have SO EASILY
> > adopted Islam as their religion. The question
> > I would like to ask you is why did these local rulers
> > adopt Islam? I know that it is very easy for one
> > to covert to Islam. All one has to do is to profess that
> > he is a Muslim. This fact does not, however, explain
> > why these local rules adopted Islam so easily. Do you
> > know whether at that time in Indonesia there were any
> > political, economical, social reasons/benefits due to
> > which these rules converted their religion to Islam?
> > tadao
 
366
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:46am
Subject: Re: Re: Majapahit and Islam
Hi, Amara:
What she said me a lot of sense. What I read did not imply that
they are forced to convert to Islam.  tadao
 
367
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 2:59pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
I've found another example of /-to/ in the Dhammapada: i.e.,
duura-to. Here do you treat "duura" as a noun or an adjective
(thought in Pali the distinctioin between the 'noun' and adjective'
doesn't mean so much)?  tadao
P.S.
Do you have any idea who does the best editing of the pali text for
the Dhammapada. (I am not so happy with the Ven. Buddharakita's
edition, which I have been using)
 
368
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Thu Aug 30, 2001 4:59pm
Subject: Ablative /-to/
Hi, Jim:
Here is a wild speculation. Can we not regard that the affix /to/
had developed from the word /tato/? I still think that it is a
grammaticalized affix. Grammaticalization is a very common phenomenon.
For instance, in English the lexical words, "have" and "do" have been
grammaticalized to a great extent, losing the original meaning of "to
possess" or "to perform". You use the grammaticalized "have" in, for
instance, present perfective, and use "do" as a interrogative marker.
Further more, "have" can be trancated as "'ve", losing the orginal
sound quality.  So, the Pali /-to/ may have originated in a lexical word,
which may not have the exact sound value as the affix. Am I twisting
your arm?  tadao
.
 
369
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 3:32am
Subject: Chiggala Sutta
Dear Jim,

I have a little question, I was glad to find the already translated 
Chiggala Sutta on the web 
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html>, but 
found it strange this version used the words 'sheer coincidence' in 
relation with rebirth.  I looked up the Thai version and the 
translation was 'after a very long time, it could sometimes happen 
(that)'.  I do not know what the original Pali is, perhaps you could 
tell us which is closer?

Thank you in advance,

Amara
 
370
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 7:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadoa,
try PTS version where they even put in Lanna thai
unusual reading.Dhurato should be treated as noun
follow 3 pali  grmmar text book-pacchato,etc.
--- ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> Hi, Jim:
> I've found another example of /-to/ in the
> Dhammapada: i.e.,
> duura-to. Here do you treat "duura" as a noun or an
> adjective
> (thought in Pali the distinctioin between the 'noun'
> and adjective'
> doesn't mean so much)?  tadao
> P.S.
> Do you have any idea who does the best editing of
> the pali text for
> the Dhammapada. (I am not so happy with the Ven.
> Buddharakita's
> edition, which I have been using)
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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371
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 9:47am
Subject: Re: Chiggala Sutta
Dear Amara,

>Dear Jim,
>
>I have a little question, I was glad to find the already translated
>Chiggala Sutta on the web
><http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html>, but
>found it strange this version used the words 'sheer coincidence' in
>relation with rebirth.  I looked up the Thai version and the
>translation was 'after a very long time, it could sometimes happen
>(that)'.  I do not know what the original Pali is, perhaps you could
>tell us which is closer?

There are two Chiggala Suttas (SN LVI.47 & 48) in the same vagga and I
suspect that you're comparing the Thai version of no. 47 with the English
version of no. 48. In no. 48 the Pali word for 'sheer coincidence' is
'adhicca.m' which is translated as 'unlikely' at GS v 384 and defined in CPD
as 'occuring only by a mere chance'. The Thai translation you read as 'after
a very long time' corresponds to the Pali phrase 'diighassa addhuno
accayena' in the preceding Chiggala Sutta (no. 47) which is translated as
'after the lapse of a long time' at GS v 383. 'it could sometimes happen
(that)' comes close to 'adhicca.m', don't you think?

Best wishes,
Jim


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372
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 11:15am
Subject: Re: Chiggala Sutta
--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> >Dear Jim,
> >
> >I have a little question, I was glad to find the already translated
> >Chiggala Sutta on the web
> ><http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html>, but
> >found it strange this version used the words 'sheer coincidence' in
> >relation with rebirth.  I looked up the Thai version and the
> >translation was 'after a very long time, it could sometimes happen
> >(that)'.  I do not know what the original Pali is, perhaps you 
could
> >tell us which is closer?
> 
> There are two Chiggala Suttas (SN LVI.47 & 48) in the same vagga and 
I
> suspect that you're comparing the Thai version of no. 47 with the 
English
> version of no. 48. In no. 48 the Pali word for 'sheer coincidence' 
is
> 'adhicca.m' which is translated as 'unlikely' at GS v 384 and 
defined in CPD
> as 'occuring only by a mere chance'. The Thai translation you read 
as 'after
> a very long time' corresponds to the Pali phrase 'diighassa addhuno
> accayena' in the preceding Chiggala Sutta (no. 47) which is 
translated as
> 'after the lapse of a long time' at GS v 383. 'it could sometimes 
happen
> (that)' comes close to 'adhicca.m', don't you think?
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation and for pointing me 
to the second sutta, which I have checked.  According to the Thai 
translation (I am using the new Budsir TT 2.0 CD version) the second 
sutta (which they call Chiggala Sutta II) they simply translated the 
phrase as 'is a difficult thing' (in Thai 'pen khong yahg').  It would 
seem that the English is closer, although I am still wondering why 
rebirth should be seen almost as a game of chance.  Perhaps because it 
depends so much on that last vithi citta series for which kamma from 
our endless samsara of accumulated kamma produces the last arammana?  
Or perhaps to stress the difficulty of being born a human at all?  Or 
both  Certainly it shows the dangers of samsara, unless we become at 
least the sotapana and permanently eliminate birth in the lower 
worlds.  Just my rambling thougths!

In any case thank you again for your kindnesses, and anumodana,

Amara
 
373
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 0:40pm
Subject: Re: Chiggala Sutta
Dear Jim et al.,

I just got this from Binh, which might interest you, 

--- In dhamma-list@y..., binh_anson@y... wrote:
>   
> --- In dhamma-list@y..., "Amara" <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> > Thank you very much for the detailed explanation and for pointing 
me 
> > to the second sutta, which I have checked.  According to the Thai 
> > translation (I am using the new Budsir TT 2.0 CD version) the 
second 
> > sutta (which they call Chiggala Sutta II) they simply translated 
the 
> > phrase as 'is a difficult thing' (in Thai 'pen khong yahg').  It 
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> BA: It's interesting, Khun Amara! :-) 
> 
> I've also checked the Vietnamese translation, and its version is 
very 
> close to your Thai version! :-) 
> 
> It's translated as "It's very difficult to ..." (VN: "Tha^.t kho' 
ma` 
> ...", for Vietnamese readers in this list). 
> 
> Perhaps Vietnam and Thailand are neighbours... :-)
> 
> Metta,
> Binh
*********

And also another note from someone else:

The (English) PTS is nearly identical to your Thai
version.  'Sheer coincidence' certainly does seem out
of place in reference to conditions for human rebirth!
 I'll be interested in reading Jim's translation.
*********

(Although I didn't ask for a translation, just a comment on the 
different versions!)  I know it's just a question of terminology, the 
gist of the message is quite clear, but still the connotations doesn't 
seem logical...

Thanks for your consideration,

Amara
 
374
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 9:04am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
Thank you for your suggestion.
tadao


375
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 9:08am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Ong Teng Kee:
Sorry, I thought it is Jim who gave me answers to my questions.
I aplogize. Hi, Ong Teng Kee. Is it possible to see the PTS version
of the Dhammapada on the Web?  tadao
 
376
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 6:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Chiggala Sutta
--- Dear amara and jim,
Thanks for this discussion which i find interesting. I remember
coming across a commentary once where they said words to the
effect that one who is rooted in samsara is the one who has
wrong view - because even when they emerge from apaya they tend
to adopt the wrongviews again as human. If anyone sees this
commentary or similar I would love a refernce
thanks
robert> 
> 


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377
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Aug 31, 2001 11:19pm
Subject: Re: Chiggala Sutta
Dear Jim and everyone,

Another interesting post from another list which you might find 
interesting,


> There are two Chiggala Suttas, one following the other. The first 
one says
> "after the elapse of a long time" (diighassa addhuno accayena), 
referring
> to the period it would take the turtle to put his head through the 
hole, or
> a denizen of the lower realms to obtain a human birth.
> 
> The second Sutta is similar, but emphasizes not the duration but the
> unlikelihood of the turtle putting his head through the hole. To 
make this
> point, the second Sutta brings in two changes:
> 
> 1) Instead of "great ocean" the Sutta speaks of the entire earth 
becoming
> covered with water.
> 
> 2) The phrase "after the elapse of a long time" is replaced by 
"adhiccam
> ida.m", translated by Thanissaro as "sheer coincidence" and by 
Bhikkhu
> Bodhi as "by chance".
> 
> The usual Thai translations of adhiccam are "mai mii patchai" 
(having no
> cause/reason) or kert kheun loi loi (happening/arising casually).
> 
> The commentaries give ahetunaa (without a cause) and akara.nena 
(without reason) as synonyms.
> 
> In colloquial English we might say it would just be a lucky fluke if
> some being ever succeeded in escaping from the lower realms.
> 
> To reconcile this oddity with the more usual Buddhist teachings on
> conditionality, Bhikkhu Bodhi comes to the rescue with an endnote, 
saying:
> 
> "The statement has to be taken as rhetorical rather than 
philosophical in
> intent. At the doctrinal level, all three occurrences mentioned here 
come
> about through precise causes and conditions, not by chance."
> (Connected Discourses II 1965)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Robert Eddison


Dear Robert Edd,

Thank you very much for your clear and concise explanation, (and for 
the unexpected Thai!)  

I suppose there are controlling factors, like all our accumulations 
through all the kamma accumulated through samsara, and the strength of 
some kamma that would have to bring results in the present or the next 
lifetimes, such as the achievement of nibbana or kamma performed to 
the Buddha or the arahanta or even to one's parents.  The rest of the 
more or less mundane kamma would be so innumerable and unpredictable 
to us, if not to the Buddha, to foretell what will happen even in the 
next instant, much less in the next lifetime, so that in a way it is 
much like a game of chance.  

All we could do is to increase the odds in our favor by accumulating 
as much panna to be able to get out of the game, or at least ensure 
that we would no longer be born in the waters of the lower birth 
realms, I think.  Or even accumulate panna and kusala to have more of 
a chance of finding the yoke again, even if as a blind turtle 
surfacing every century only.  This our citta and cetasika, more 
precisely our cetana and chanda could be accumulated to do, and sati 
and panna could arise to study realities as they really are instead of 
being discouraged or incredulous.  

Of course I am mostly addressing myself here, though I firmly believe 
that the study of the present as taught in satipatthana is provable 
and applicable anywhere any time, even now as we read this, visible 
objects can be studied which are so different from sound or thinking, 
and the characteristics of each reality could add to panna knowing 
things as they really are; impermanent, ever changing, and 
uncontrollable.  We are lucky enough to be born in the yoke this life, 
and we should study the Buddha's teachings as much as we can to get 
out of the sea and into the world of air and light, and from there 
perhaps out of samsara entirely!

Thanks again for your explanations, and anumodana in your studies,

Amara

I hope you won't mind my reposting the above on another list, also,

A.
 
378
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2001 1:50pm
Subject: Re: Re: attha.m gacchati
Hi, Jim and Ong Teng Kee:
In a few places in the Dhammapada, I see the use of
"attha.m gacchati", which is, for instance, used as follows:
attha.m gacchanti aasavaa, which is translated something like
"defilements have gone". My question is: Is the expression,
"attha.m gacchati", idiomatic? What does "attha" here mean?
Is the verb, "gacchati", fucntioning as a 'transtive' verb
(taking two 'arguments' (<- this is a linguistic technical term,
meaning the required/licensed phrases by a verb), that is,
"attha" and "aasavaa"?
tadao
 
379
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2001 11:14pm
Subject: Re: Re: attha.m gacchati
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim and Ong Teng Kee:
>In a few places in the Dhammapada, I see the use of
>"attha.m gacchati", which is, for instance, used as follows:
>attha.m gacchanti aasavaa, which is translated something like
>"defilements have gone". My question is: Is the expression,
>"attha.m gacchati", idiomatic? What does "attha" here mean?
>Is the verb, "gacchati", fucntioning as a 'transtive' verb
>(taking two 'arguments' (<- this is a linguistic technical term,
>meaning the required/licensed phrases by a verb), that is,
>"attha" and "aasavaa"?
>tadao

I'm hesitant to say that 'attha.m gacchanti' is a Pali idiom since its
counterpart also occurs in Sanskrit as 'asta.mgacchanti'. 'attha' means
'destruction, a state of non-existence, disappearance'. I'm not sure how the
Pali grammarians treat this word but Aggava.msa seems to take it as a neuter
noun and there is also a masc. 'attho' (Skt. asta.h). Panini classifies
'astam' as an indeclinable word (also a gati word) which explains the
combined forms like 'attha"ngata' in Pali (or asta.mgata in Skt). If we
consider it as a neuter noun in the accusative I think it is functioning as
the goal of motion: the asavas go to destruction. If we take it as an
indeclinable I think the meaning with the verb would be '(the asavas)
disappear or go invisible'. It's also used with the 'sun' as agent. I take
the verb 'gacchati' as intransitive (doesn't take an object).

Which Pali-English and/or Sanskrit-English dictionaries do you have at hand?
I think you mentioned you have Geiger's grammar. Do you have any other such
reference materials?

I will try to respond to some of your earlier questions when I get the
chance.

Jim


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380
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 1, 2001 4:43pm
Subject: Re: Re: attha.m gacchati
Hi, Jim:
Thank you for your prompt reply.
Your answer/information is very very useful
since I am very interested in verbs whose
"argument structure" is ambigous. In any
languages verbs, such as 'kill', behaves very
clearnly (with respect to the number of the arguments
they take and what kinds of case these arguments are marked).
For instance, in the case of 'kill', its 'Agent
Subject' is marked by nominative, and its
'Theme Object' is marked by accusative. And this
regualar case marking for such verbs as 'kill'
is observed 'universally' (across a wide range of languages).
Meanwhile, (in any langauge) you would find verbs whose
"argument structure" is ambigous.
And I think 'gacchati' (with attha.m) is one of
these instances. Here, some grammarians argue that
it is a transitive verb, having two arguments; while
the other argue, as you do, that it is intranstive.

Sorry for asking such a seemingly silly grammatical
question, but the isssue interestes me a lot
in the sense that my Ph.D. dissertation dealt with
a light verb (in Japanese) whose 'argument structure' is
totally ambigous. And I spent nearly five years in order
to account for the syntactic phenomena which can be demonstrated
by THREE SIMPLE Japanese SENTENCES. Yes, I thought about the three
sentences every day (day and night). (Lucky me. I was able
to publish my work. Otherwise, I would have tormented by
a feeling that I had totally wasted part of life.)
tadao
P.S. Here I have the PTS Pali-English Dictionary and
Sir M. Monier Williams' Sanskrit-English Dic.
 
381
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2001 1:21am
Subject: Re: Re: attha.m gacchati
--- ppp <miyamoto@u...> wrote:
> > by THREE SIMPLE Japanese SENTENCES. Yes, I thought about the
> three
> sentences every day (day and night). (Lucky me. I was able
> to publish my work. Otherwise, I would have tormented by
> a feeling that I had totally wasted part of life.)
> tadao
________
I amost did a phd in English linguistics Tadao, but was worried
by the trivialty of what I might have to do. Glad I didn't
reading the above
robert

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382
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2001 10:08pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>I've found another example of /-to/ in the Dhammapada: i.e.,
>duura-to. Here do you treat "duura" as a noun or an adjective
>(thought in Pali the distinctioin between the 'noun' and adjective'
>doesn't mean so much)?  tadao

I found only one instance of 'duurato' in the Dhammapada (v. 219). I take
'duura' here to be a noun rather than an adjective. The /-to/ affix
functions as an ablative and the lit. meaning of the phrase 'duurato . . .
aagata.m' is 'come . . . from a distance'. But 'duurato' is considered an
indeclinable so 'come from afar' is also a valid translation. The
prepositional phrases 'from a distance' and 'from afar' both function as
clause adverbials. Although the Saddaniti has the suttas for the /-to/ affix
in the naama chapter, it also includes words with the ablative and locative
/-to/ in the section on indeclinables in chapter 27 on the four classes of
words.

The ablative use of 'duura' is discussed in some detail at sutta 571 of the
Saddaniti. An example of its adjectival use is shown with 'duurato gaamaa
aagato' (come from a distant village). The first two words can also be
expressed in the accusative or instrumental with the force of the ablative.

>P.S.
>Do you have any idea who does the best editing of the pali text for
>the Dhammapada. (I am not so happy with the Ven. Buddharakita's
>edition, which I have been using)

I take it that you are speaking of the Pali text only and not necessarily
with an English translation. I really couldn't tell you which is the best
one. I have a number of Dhammapada texts and the one I use most often is
Narada's edition with the text and translation on facing pages. I don't have
the PTS ed. of the Dhammapada so I can't tell you anything about it. I just
noticed that the PTS now offers the complete set of H. Smith's ed. of the
Saddaniti for 75 UK pds.

Jim



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383
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2001 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
(i) Thank you for your clarification on /duura-to/.
I am ashamed of asking you, but when you use the term
'indeclinable', in what sense are you using the term?
I know the general definition of 'indeclinable'. But when
you say that /duurato/ is an indeclinable, are you saying that
the word cannot be separted into two morephemes (i.e.,
'duura' and 'to') or are you saying that the word functions
as an adeverb, whose case specification is insignificant?
(ii) Thank you for your information on Saddaniti. How readable is it?
(iii) Can I ask another question? It's about the word "manasi-kaara".
As you know that the word can be translated as "contemplation". And
as you can see that it is a compound. Interestingly, in this compound
the locative case is "trapped". Can you think of any other examples of
Pali compounds, in which case is trapped. (In Sanskrit, this phenomenon
seems to be not totally uncommon.)  tadao
 
384
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2001 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Re: attha.m gacchati
Hi, Robert:
Lucky you! Often I tell my students that linguists are a type of
scholars who can find/spot a needle in a huge forest but cannot see the
forest. Since finishing my Ph.D., I haven't looked at syntax books.
Currently I am more intersted in developing various courses, so that
I can learn something new all the time.
tadao
 
385
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2001 0:10am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Dear Tadao,

>Hi, Jim:
>(i) Thank you for your clarification on /duura-to/.
>I am ashamed of asking you, but when you use the term
>'indeclinable', in what sense are you using the term?
>I know the general definition of 'indeclinable'. But when
>you say that /duurato/ is an indeclinable, are you saying that
>the word cannot be separted into two morephemes (i.e.,
>'duura' and 'to') or are you saying that the word functions
>as an adeverb, whose case specification is insignificant?

I've been using the term 'indeclinable' for one of the four main classes of
Pali words. It's stands for 'nipaata'. And 'indeclinable' is the translation
used by Warder and others for this term. 'Particle' is another one I've seen
for the same term. I'm not saying that the word cannot be separated into two
morphemes. I would say that the word is functioning as a clause adverbial
according to my study of English syntax in "A Comprehensive Grammar of the
English Language" by R. Quirk et al. but perhaps I shouldn't be applying
this notion from another system of linguistic description. It might be
better to say that the word is functioning as a noun even though it is
classed as a nipata. I wouldn't say that the case specification is
insignificant.

I have already given some reasons why I think these kinds of words ending in
/-to/ are placed in the nipata class. Aggava.msa has a section on this class
which he further divides into four subclasses.

>(ii) Thank you for your information on Saddaniti. How readable is it?

I think it's very readable and practical. This particular Roman edition is a
reprint of an earlier edition of 6 vols. with a total of 1795 pp. The first
three vols. contain the Saddaniti text itself, Vol. 4 contains indices of
roots, affixes, etc. and an overview of the grammatical system (in French),
and Vol. 5 & 6 is an index of Pali words. This is a scholarly work of
exceptional quality with many footnotes (some of it in Burmese). Most of the
quotes Aggava.ms cites are referenced to the standard PTS pagination.

>(iii) Can I ask another question? It's about the word "manasi-kaara".
>As you know that the word can be translated as "contemplation". And
>as you can see that it is a compound. Interestingly, in this compound
>the locative case is "trapped". Can you think of any other examples of
>Pali compounds, in which case is trapped. (In Sanskrit, this phenomenon
>seems to be not totally uncommon.)  tadao

I can think of 'Devaanampiyatisso' & 'ubhatovibhaagavimutta'. Besides the
noun 'manasikaara', there is also the verb 'manasikaroti'. Checking with the
Saddaniti I also find: urasi-lomo, gavampati, ka.n.thekaalo, kutojo, itojo,
itonidaano, vanejo. They're called aluttasamaasa-s or compounds without
elision (of the vibhatti affix of a prior member).

Jim


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386
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2001 2:09pm
Subject: Asoka pillar
Dear Jim, in a few weeks I shall see the Asoka pillar at Lumbini. It would
inspire me very much if you could say something about the Pali text on the
pillar. A few months ago you mentioned this text. I have the Pali and
English in an old book we bought in India, by V.A.Smith, Low Price
Publications. I can type it out if you do not have it at hand, but it would
be nice if you explain more about it. Lodewijk and I will also visit Kuru,
the place of the preaching of the satipatthana sutta where there is also a
stone slab, and New Delhi museum where there is a copy of the stones with
Asoka's edict.   
Now back to corrections. Superscript 2,3, this may be because I work from my
document (Apple works) and paste it to e mail.
The accusative and then vuccati which is passive. Still, I think that
vuccati refers to all those accusatives. Can it be: with reference to?I
looked at Warder, p. 17. And hotu maybe just in between like va: maybe.
Yamki~nci I understood: whatever, whatever colour. From the to particle I
learnt that cases may overlap, not so strict. Because of its purity: could
extend to all those colours and no colour. Your corrections were very
helpful as always. Thank you very much. Nina.
 
387
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 4, 2001 9:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Ablative/-to
Hi, Jim:
Thank you very much for your informative reply.
So, it looks like that any person who would like to
understand Pali 'seriously', he/she has to have a
copy of Saddaniti, eah?
tadao
 
388
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2001 11:27am
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
Dear Nina,

Welcome back!

>Dear Jim, in a few weeks I shall see the Asoka pillar at Lumbini. It would
>inspire me very much if you could say something about the Pali text on the
>pillar. A few months ago you mentioned this text. I have the Pali and
>English in an old book we bought in India, by V.A.Smith, Low Price
>Publications. I can type it out if you do not have it at hand, but it would
>be nice if you explain more about it. Lodewijk and I will also visit Kuru,
>the place of the preaching of the satipatthana sutta where there is also a
>stone slab, and New Delhi museum where there is a copy of the stones with
>Asoka's edict.

The Lumbini inscription is as follows:
1. devaana(pi)yena piyadasina laajina viisativasaabhisitena
    atana aagaaca mahiiyite hida budhe jaate sakyamunii ti.
[I have converted it to Pali for comparison as follows:
1. devaanampiyena piyadassinaa lajjinaa viisativassaabhisittena
    attanaa aagaa ca mahiiyate idha buddho jaato sakyamunii ti.]

2. silaa viga.dabhiicaa kaalaapita silaathabhe ca usapaapite
    hida bhagava.m jaate ti;
3. lu.mmininigaame ubalike ka.te a.thabhaagiye ca.

From p.40 of The Moral Edicts of King Asoka, by P.H.L. Eggermont and J.
Hoftijzer (Brill 1962)

As you can see, the dialect is not quite the same as Pali. One could at
least say that it looks a lot more like Pali than it does Sanskrit. I also
have a clear photo of the Lumbini inscription in the Brahmi characters along
with an English translation. I don't know much about this dialect and only
have just a bit of reference material to go on. Past president of PTS, K.R.
Norman is an expert on Asokan inscriptions and I have some of his articles
explaining a few points but nothing on the Lumbini inscription in particular
as far as I can see. Would you like to compare the inscription above with
the one you have in your book to check for any differences. It would also be
good if you could provide the translation you have and I could give the one
I have later. The most difficult words to figure out are 'viga.dabhiicaa'
and 'ubalike'.

>Now back to corrections. Superscript 2,3, this may be because I work from
my
>document (Apple works) and paste it to e mail.
>The accusative and then vuccati which is passive. Still, I think that
>vuccati refers to all those accusatives. Can it be: with reference to?I
>looked at Warder, p. 17. And hotu maybe just in between like va: maybe.
>Yamki~nci I understood: whatever, whatever colour. From the to particle I
>learnt that cases may overlap, not so strict. Because of its purity: could
>extend to all those colours and no colour. Your corrections were very
>helpful as always. Thank you very much. Nina.

Thanks for your comments which I will keep in mind. The sentence with
ya.mki~nci, hotu, and vuccati is still too difficult for me. I'll let you
know if and whenever it becomes clear to me.

Best wishes,
Jim


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389
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2001 2:57pm
Subject: Asoka pillar
Rummindei Inscription: < By His Sacred and Gracious Majesty the King when he
had been consecrated twenty years, having come in person and reverence being
done- inasmuch as <<Here was born Buddha, the sage of the Sakyas>>- a stone
bearing a horse was caused to be made and a stone pillar was erected.
Inasmuch as <<Here the Holy One was born >>, the village of Lummini was
released from religious cesses and required to pay (only) one-eighth as land
revenue.>

Nina.


390
From: ppp <miyamoto@uvvm.uvic.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2001 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
Hi, Nina:
I keep a library copy of the following book (for my course on
Writing Systems of the World), which may interest you.
Klaus Ludwig Janert. (1972). Abstande Und
Schlussvokalverzeichnungen In Asoka-Inschriften.
Wiesbaden: Franz Steiner Verlag BMBH.

I cannot read German, but I can have a look at picture of
the insctiptions.

tadao
 
391
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 5, 2001 11:13pm
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
Thanks, Nina. I have added a similar translation below it.

>Rummindei Inscription: < By His Sacred and Gracious Majesty the King
>when he had been consecrated twenty years, having come in person and
>reverence being done- inasmuch as <<Here was born Buddha, the sage
>of the Sakyas>>- a stone bearing a horse was caused to be made and a
>stone pillar was erected. Inasmuch as <<Here the Holy One was born >>,
>the village of Lummini was released from religious cesses and required to
>pay (only) one-eighth as land revenue.>

(a) When King Devaanampiya Piyadasi had been anointed twenty years, he
      came himself and worshipped (this spot) because the Buddha Saakyamuni
      was born here.
(b) (He) both caused to be made a stone bearing a horse (?) and caused a
      stone pillar to be set up (in order to show) that the Blessed One
      (Bhagava.m) was born here.
(c) (He) made the village of Lumminii free of taxes, and (paying) only an
      eighth share (of the produce).

--translated by Hultzsch and quoted in S. Dutt's The Buddha and Five
After-Centuries, p.22.

A footnote says: "In (b), 'a stone bearing a horse' is Hultzsch's
mistranslation for Silaaviga.dabhiicaa which means literally a 'great
stone-wall', referring most probably to a stone-railing round the monolith
which had disappeared. The 'horse' was suggested by Hsuan Tsang's
description."

I thought 'laajina' was 'lajjinaa' in Pali but according to Dutt it's
'raajina' (king -instr.) which would be 'ra~n~naa' in Pali or 'raaj~naa in
Skt. I think the inflections 'e' of 'budhe jaate' may be for the nominative.
sing. (see Geiger's discussion on Magadhisms, sect. 80).

Jim


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392
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Thu Sep 6, 2001 11:10pm
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Thanks, Nina. I have added a similar translation below it.
> 
> >Rummindei Inscription: < By His Sacred and Gracious Majesty the 
King
> >when he had been consecrated twenty years, having come in person 
and
> >reverence being done- inasmuch as <<Here was born Buddha, the sage
> >of the Sakyas>>- a stone bearing a horse was caused to be made and 
a
> >stone pillar was erected. Inasmuch as <<Here the Holy One was born 
>>,
> >the village of Lummini was released from religious cesses and 
required to
> >pay (only) one-eighth as land revenue.>
> 
> (a) When King Devaanampiya Piyadasi had been anointed twenty years, 
he
>       came himself and worshipped (this spot) because the Buddha 
Saakyamuni
>       was born here.
> (b) (He) both caused to be made a stone bearing a horse (?) and 
caused a
>       stone pillar to be set up (in order to show) that the Blessed 
One
>       (Bhagava.m) was born here.
> (c) (He) made the village of Lumminii free of taxes, and (paying) 
only an
>       eighth share (of the produce).
> 
> --translated by Hultzsch and quoted in S. Dutt's The Buddha and Five
> After-Centuries, p.22.
> 
> A footnote says: "In (b), 'a stone bearing a horse' is Hultzsch's
> mistranslation for Silaaviga.dabhiicaa which means literally a 
'great
> stone-wall', referring most probably to a stone-railing round the 
monolith
> which had disappeared. The 'horse' was suggested by Hsuan Tsang's
> description."
> 
> I thought 'laajina' was 'lajjinaa' in Pali but according to Dutt 
it's
> 'raajina' (king -instr.) which would be 'ra~n~naa' in Pali or 
'raaj~naa in
> Skt. I think the inflections 'e' of 'budhe jaate' may be for the 
nominative.
> sing. (see Geiger's discussion on Magadhisms, sect. 80).
> 
> Jim
> 

Dear Jim and Nina,

Thank you both for this very much, I really appreciate the discussion, 
and Jim's great translation, which I would like to ask about;  I would 
like know more about the 'stone horse or wall'.  In Thai we use the 
word 'ma' - high tone- to indicate not only the animal but something 
with generally four 'legs' on which one sits or sets an object.  Is 
there any possibility that in Pali this is also the case, say the 
'horse' being the pedestal for something?  In which case could it be 
the stone dug up under the Maha Maya statue in the temple, which is 
said not to be a local stone, and not found within hundreds of miles 
around?  The archeologists reported that although the temples built 
over one another varied in shape and size, the statue has always been 
in the same spot, right over the stone.

Thank you for your kindnesses and anumodana,

Amara
 
393
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 8:19am
Subject: Re: Re: Asoka pillar
Dear Khun Amara,

--- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:

> Thai we use the 
> word 'ma' - high tone- to indicate not only the
> animal but something 
> with generally four 'legs' on which one sits or sets
> an object.  Is 
> there any possibility that in Pali this is also the
> case, say the 
> 'horse' being the pedestal for something?  

So then this might have been something like
'horse-stone' meaning 'pedastal', rather than 'stone
with a horse' or 'great wall'?

I found the word 'ma' for 'horse' in Dravidian in an
article suggesting that Dravidian is the source of
Indo-European:

"...it is to be noted that in DR. the seed-words ma =
horse (4780-Ta); and mari = female of horse, deer,
sheep, etc., (4764-Ta)". 

http://www.datanumeric.com/dravidian/page061.html

and 'ma' (don't know the tone) can also mean 'horse'
in Chinese.

So I don't know whether 'horse' can refer to a
(four-legged) pedestal in languages other than Thai,
but 'ma' for 'horse' certainly seems very widespread.

Just thought you might find this interesting.

mike

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394
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 10:50am
Subject: Re: Re: Asoka pillar
Dear Amara,

>Thank you both for this very much, I really appreciate the discussion,
>and Jim's great translation, which I would like to ask about;  I would

I'd like to clarify that it wasn't my translation. It was done by E.
Hultzsch which S. Dutt quotes (possibly) from Inscriptions of Asoka, 1925.
(Dutt doesn't give the book's title and I'm only thinking that this might be
the one).

>like know more about the 'stone horse or wall'.  In Thai we use the
>word 'ma' - high tone- to indicate not only the animal but something
>with generally four 'legs' on which one sits or sets an object.  Is
>there any possibility that in Pali this is also the case, say the
>'horse' being the pedestal for something?  In which case could it be
>the stone dug up under the Maha Maya statue in the temple, which is
>said not to be a local stone, and not found within hundreds of miles
>around?  The archeologists reported that although the temples built
>over one another varied in shape and size, the statue has always been
>in the same spot, right over the stone.

The word(s) in the inscription for the stone wall or horse is
'silaaviga.dabhiicaa' which doesn't seem to make much sense in Pali or
Sanskrit. All I can make of it so far is 'sila' for stone and 'ga.da' (Skt.)
for wall or fence. 'caa' at the end might be 'ca' for 'and'. I don't see any
word in it suggesting a horse ('assa' in Pali). On the same page from where
I quoted the translation of the inscription there is also mentioned a much
defaced relief in stone discovered near the shrine showing Queen Maya
holding the branch of a tree. It says that this stone is made of yellowish
sandstone like that of the Asokan pillar. Could this be the same stone that
you're referring to (the one dug up under the statue)? I'm afraid I have
very little in the way of specialized information on Asokan inscriptions to
help us out. However, tt does sound plausible that the discovered stone
might be related to that troublesome word in the inscription.

Jim


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395
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 11:22am
Subject: Re: Re: Asoka pillar
Dear Jim & Khun Amara,

--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:

> The word(s) in the inscription for the stone wall or
> horse is
> 'silaaviga.dabhiicaa' which doesn't seem to make
> much sense in Pali or
> Sanskrit. 

So much for 'ma'--please excuse the digression.

mike

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396
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 11:41am
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
--- In palistudy@y..., "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> --- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> > Thai we use the 
> > word 'ma' - high tone- to indicate not only the
> > animal but something 
> > with generally four 'legs' on which one sits or sets
> > an object.  Is 
> > there any possibility that in Pali this is also the
> > case, say the 
> > 'horse' being the pedestal for something?  
> 
> So then this might have been something like
> 'horse-stone' meaning 'pedastal', rather than 'stone
> with a horse' or 'great wall'?
> 
> I found the word 'ma' for 'horse' in Dravidian in an
> article suggesting that Dravidian is the source of
> Indo-European:
> 
> "...it is to be noted that in DR. the seed-words ma =
> horse (4780-Ta); and mari = female of horse, deer,
> sheep, etc., (4764-Ta)". 
> 
> http://www.datanumeric.com/dravidian/page061.html
> 
> and 'ma' (don't know the tone) can also mean 'horse'
> in Chinese.
> 
> So I don't know whether 'horse' can refer to a
> (four-legged) pedestal in languages other than Thai,
> but 'ma' for 'horse' certainly seems very widespread.
> 
> Just thought you might find this interesting.
> 
> mike


Dear Sir Mike,

Actually the 'ma' doesn't have to have 4 legs any more, these days 
they can have just one or none, but they aren't as tall as a table, 
that's all.  Except for a child's high chair, you know?

Thanks for the above, I always find your posts aposite and 
interesting, sir,

Amara
 
397
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 11:48am
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> >Thank you both for this very much, I really appreciate the 
discussion,
> >and Jim's great translation, which I would like to ask about;  I 
would
> 
> I'd like to clarify that it wasn't my translation. It was done by E.
> Hultzsch which S. Dutt quotes (possibly) from Inscriptions of Asoka, 
1925.
> (Dutt doesn't give the book's title and I'm only thinking that this 
might be
> the one).
> 
> >like know more about the 'stone horse or wall'.  In Thai we use the
> >word 'ma' - high tone- to indicate not only the animal but 
something
> >with generally four 'legs' on which one sits or sets an object.  Is
> >there any possibility that in Pali this is also the case, say the
> >'horse' being the pedestal for something?  In which case could it 
be
> >the stone dug up under the Maha Maya statue in the temple, which is
> >said not to be a local stone, and not found within hundreds of 
miles
> >around?  The archeologists reported that although the temples built
> >over one another varied in shape and size, the statue has always 
been
> >in the same spot, right over the stone.
> 
> The word(s) in the inscription for the stone wall or horse is
> 'silaaviga.dabhiicaa' which doesn't seem to make much sense in Pali 
or
> Sanskrit. All I can make of it so far is 'sila' for stone and 
'ga.da' (Skt.)
> for wall or fence. 'caa' at the end might be 'ca' for 'and'. I don't 
see any
> word in it suggesting a horse ('assa' in Pali). On the same page 
from where
> I quoted the translation of the inscription there is also mentioned 
a much
> defaced relief in stone discovered near the shrine showing Queen 
Maya
> holding the branch of a tree. It says that this stone is made of 
yellowish
> sandstone like that of the Asokan pillar. Could this be the same 
stone that
> you're referring to (the one dug up under the statue)? I'm afraid I 
have
> very little in the way of specialized information on Asokan 
inscriptions to
> help us out. However, tt does sound plausible that the discovered 
stone
> might be related to that troublesome word in the inscription.
> 
> Jim


Dear Jim, 

I wouldn't be able to tell you for certain, but I doubt it is the same 
one because the one I saw in the picture in the archeological article 
was of a large uncarved grey stone.  But it might have changed color, 
although there was definitely no carving as I remember.  I hope to be 
able to see it this trip and if possible will report more,

Thanks for everything, anumodana,

Amara
 
398
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 11:51am
Subject: Re: Asoka pillar
--- In palistudy@y..., "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> Dear Jim & Khun Amara,
> 
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> 
> > The word(s) in the inscription for the stone wall or
> > horse is
> > 'silaaviga.dabhiicaa' which doesn't seem to make
> > much sense in Pali or
> > Sanskrit. 
> 
> So much for 'ma'--please excuse the digression.
> 
> mike
> 


Dear Jim, Sir Mike, et al,

The digression was mine, so ditto the above,

Amara
 
399
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Fri Sep 7, 2001 1:13pm
Subject: text Asoka
Dear Jim, thank you for the texts. I looked up the words as far as I could,
but it is difficult. It starts with an abl. absolutum. mahiiyate: from
mahati. When an i is inserted I think of passive, but this Pali is
different, and maybe we should not go too much into details. Silaathabhe: I
found: thambo, pillar. laajina, raajina, interesting, because l and r , like
in Thai, are almost the same, people mix them. Several words I could not
find, but anyway, I have a general impression of the text on the pillar.
Nina.
 
400
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: Nina's transl. co 49. A.N. I 51
Dear Nina,

AA i 60 (on AN I.49):
katha.m? yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro
vaa aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaana.m duraacaaraana.m
avattasampannaana.m puttaana~nceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaana~nca
vasena ``attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti  na
sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii''ti ava.n.na.m akitti.m labhanti,
eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m.

N: Why is that so? People may be observing morality, and may be provided
with a teacher, but because of bad morality, of bad teachers, of people who
do not do their duty, the parents and the preceptors  do not censure their
own children, their pupils, their co-residents, do not train them, exhort
them, admonish them.
And thus, they acquire a bad appearance and a bad name, and this
consequence should be known.

J: According to PED and Warder, 'katha.m' has the two meanings of how? and
why?. I'm not sure which is the more appropriate one for this translation. I
think the question could be put more fully as "how is the bhavangacitta
defiled by oncoming defilements?" or "why is the bhavangacitta defiled by
oncoming defilements?" It is worth noting that both Aggava.msa and Panini
only take the meaning of 'how?' (kena pakaarena? = in what way or manner?).
However, there is an interpretation of 'katha.m' as 'why' (kena kaara.nena =
by what reason or cause?) at Ja III 81 so there is some commentarial support
but I think it may be in much less frequent use as I think Aggava.msa would
have included it in one of his suttas if it were otherwise.

I"m afraid your translation has some major mistakes in it. For example,
you've translated 'aacaarasampannaa' as 'provided with a teacher'. 'aacaara'
does not have the meaning of 'teacher' (aacariya) but means something like
'good behaviour or conduct'. The whole sentence is a simile (upamaa) divided
into two main parts, the first begins with 'yathaa hi' and the second begins
with 'eva.msampadam'. 'yathaa' (as) and 'eva.m' (so) are common components
of a simile. Usually it is just 'eva.m' but here we have it joined with
'sampadam' but I still think we're dealing with a simile.

Here's my try at a translation:
"For, as parents, teachers, or preceptors, of good conduct, possessed of
good behaviour, because of the children, pupils, or co-residents [being] of
bad conduct, misbehaved, disobedient, receive dispraise or disapproval thus
"they neither scold, discipline, nor admonish their own children, pupils, or
co-residents"; so should this [bhavangacitta] having a [similar] consequence
be understood." <end>

So, well-behaved parents, etc. are the bhavangacittas while the misbehaved
children, etc. are the oncoming defilements.

There is still the last part of your translation for me to go over and a
reply to it is forthcoming.

Best wishes,
Jim


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400
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2001 11:29pm
Subject: Re: Nina's transl. co 49. A.N. I 51
Dear Nina,

AA i 60 (on AN I.49):
katha.m? yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro
vaa aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaana.m duraacaaraana.m
avattasampannaana.m puttaana~nceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaana~nca
vasena ``attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti  na
sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii''ti ava.n.na.m akitti.m labhanti,
eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m.

N: Why is that so? People may be observing morality, and may be provided
with a teacher, but because of bad morality, of bad teachers, of people who
do not do their duty, the parents and the preceptors  do not censure their
own children, their pupils, their co-residents, do not train them, exhort
them, admonish them.
And thus, they acquire a bad appearance and a bad name, and this
consequence should be known.

J: According to PED and Warder, 'katha.m' has the two meanings of how? and
why?. I'm not sure which is the more appropriate one for this translation. I
think the question could be put more fully as "how is the bhavangacitta
defiled by oncoming defilements?" or "why is the bhavangacitta defiled by
oncoming defilements?" It is worth noting that both Aggava.msa and Panini
only take the meaning of 'how?' (kena pakaarena? = in what way or manner?).
However, there is an interpretation of 'katha.m' as 'why' (kena kaara.nena =
by what reason or cause?) at Ja III 81 so there is some commentarial support
but I think it may be in much less frequent use as I think Aggava.msa would
have included it in one of his suttas if it were otherwise.

I"m afraid your translation has some major mistakes in it. For example,
you've translated 'aacaarasampannaa' as 'provided with a teacher'. 'aacaara'
does not have the meaning of 'teacher' (aacariya) but means something like
'good behaviour or conduct'. The whole sentence is a simile (upamaa) divided
into two main parts, the first begins with 'yathaa hi' and the second begins
with 'eva.msampadam'. 'yathaa' (as) and 'eva.m' (so) are common components
of a simile. Usually it is just 'eva.m' but here we have it joined with
'sampadam' but I still think we're dealing with a simile.

Here's my try at a translation:
"For, as parents, teachers, or preceptors, of good conduct, possessed of
good behaviour, because of the children, pupils, or co-residents [being] of
bad conduct, misbehaved, disobedient, receive dispraise or disapproval thus
"they neither scold, discipline, nor admonish their own children, pupils, or
co-residents"; so should this [bhavangacitta] having a [similar] consequence
be understood." <end>

So, well-behaved parents, etc. are the bhavangacittas while the misbehaved
children, etc. are the oncoming defilements.

There is still the last part of your translation for me to go over and a
reply to it is forthcoming.

Best wishes,
Jim


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401
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 5:45am
Subject: The use of '-fold'
Dear Jim and linguist friends,

I have a question about the English language;

When we use the word -fold, such as the eightfold path, doesn't it 
mean a simultaneous happening?  The different aspects of the same 
thing?  Lately I have been seeing usages like 

'the 12-Fold Chain' someone asked about on dl, taken from Steve 
Hagen's book entitled 'Buddhism: Plain and Simple.' which other 
members defined as 'Paticca-samuppada',

and in Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, 'A Comprehensive Manuel of Abhidhamma', 
in p. 8 of the introduction where there is this 'its concomitants lead 
to a fourfold method of classification', (this was remarked by KS, 
BTW)

What does the term '-fold' really signify, and is the usage in 
temporally non-concurrent, non-simultaneous descriptions appropriate? 
 

Thanks in advance,

Amara
 
402
From: m. nease <mlnease@yahoo.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 1:02pm
Subject: Re: The use of '-fold'
Dear Khun Amara,

--- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:

> When we use the word -fold, such as the eightfold
> path, doesn't it 
> mean a simultaneous happening?  The different
> aspects of the same 
> thing?  

Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say:

Main Entry: -fold
Pronunciation: "fOld, 'fOld
Function: suffix
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English -feald;
akin to Old High German -falt -fold, Latin -plex,
-plus, Old English fealdan
1 : multiplied by (a specified number) : times -- in
adjectives <a sixfold increase> and adverbs <repay you
tenfold>
2 : having (so many) parts <threefold aspect of the
problem>

This is from their Collegiate dictionary--an
unabridged dictionary might have more information. 
But definition 2 certainly does concur with your
second definition.  Here's Ven. Buddhadatta's 'vidha':

 (in cpds.) of a kind; consisting of: --fold.
naanaavidha = manifold

mike

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403
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 11:39pm
Subject: Re: The use of '-fold'
--- In palistudy@y..., "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote:
> Dear Khun Amara,
> 
> --- Amara <joychay@h...> wrote:
> 
> > When we use the word -fold, such as the eightfold
> > path, doesn't it 
> > mean a simultaneous happening?  The different
> > aspects of the same 
> > thing?  
> 
> Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say:
> 
> Main Entry: -fold
> Pronunciation: "fOld, 'fOld
> Function: suffix
> Etymology: Middle English, from Old English -feald;
> akin to Old High German -falt -fold, Latin -plex,
> -plus, Old English fealdan
> 1 : multiplied by (a specified number) : times -- in
> adjectives <a sixfold increase> and adverbs <repay you
> tenfold>
> 2 : having (so many) parts <threefold aspect of the
> problem>
> 
> This is from their Collegiate dictionary--an
> unabridged dictionary might have more information. 
> But definition 2 certainly does concur with your
> second definition.  Here's Ven. Buddhadatta's 'vidha':
> 
>  (in cpds.) of a kind; consisting of: --fold.
> naanaavidha = manifold
> 
> mike
> 


Thank you, Sir Mike,

Do you think any of the explanations justify the translations I 
mentioned, 

'the 12-Fold Chain' for the temporally distant causes and effects 
(although some are sahajata paccaya, most are nanakhanika) of the 
paticca-samuppada,

and 'fourfold method of classification'?

Personally I see it as an unnecessary banalization of the term, with 
no considerstion for the meaning.  I think we will be seeing more of 
this as well, among modern Buddhist writers.

Amara
 
404
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2001 1:00pm
Subject: Corrections N's transl
Dear Jim, thank you very much. It is a great help, now I can correct also
following similar passages. Useful to know it is a simile, and in the
following it is explained more. I see, the parents who receive the blame
because they did not scold their misbehaved children are like the
bhavangacitta that is defiled. But hard to get the pointe of this simile. I
do not quite get it. Buddhaghosa wanted to point out in which way the
bhavangacitta that is pure can still be called defiled.
I have come to the Tika, and this has difficult expressions, like labbhanaka
, itaro(other?) and:niilaadiinantiaadi. The n after niilaadii seems just to
stick the words together, thus, anti?
Nina.

405
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 11, 2001 11:03am
Subject: Re: Corrections N's transl

 
    Dear Nina,

>Dear Jim, thank you very much. It is a great help, now I can correct also
>following similar passages. Useful to know it is a simile, and in the
>following it is explained more. I see, the parents who receive the blame
>because they did not scold their misbehaved children are like the
>bhavangacitta that is defiled. But hard to get the pointe of this simile. I
>do not quite get it. Buddhaghosa wanted to point out in which way the
>bhavangacitta that is pure can still be called defiled.

I found the next matching simile with virtuous parents, etc. and
well-behaved children, etc. (kusalacittas) helps in understanding the first
simile with the misbehaved children, etc. My translation (like most of them)
is rather a crude one since I didn't spend much time carefully choosing my
words. 'Scold' may not be right for 'tajjenti'. PED gives only 'frighten,
threaten, curse, rail against' which I felt inappropriate for 'parents of
good conduct' to engage in. I have since thought a little more about this
and think that maybe children, etc. with a healthy dose of fear instilled in
them by parents, etc. are more likely to behave well. I think the
bhavangacitta is defiled by or free from defilements by association with the
kusala or akusala cittas that follow even though the bhavangacitta still
remains pure. One interesting thought that came to mind is that a dvihetuka
bhavangacitta is more likely to have a bigger problem with akusalacittas
arising than a tihetuka bhavangacitta.

>I have come to the Tika, and this has difficult expressions, like
labbhanaka
>, itaro(other?) and:niilaadiinantiaadi. The n after niilaadii seems just to
>stick the words together, thus, anti?
>Nina.

'labbhanaka' is a difficult word and I couldn't find it in any of my
dictionaries. I think it may be an adjective from labbhana + ka (taddhita or
secondary affix). 'itaro' might be 'next'. 'niilaadiinantiaadimaaha' =
niilaadiina.m (gen. pl.) + ti (end quote) + aadi.m (acc. sg.) + aaha (he
said). I haven't been paying much attention to the tika as I thought we'd
leave it until after we've gone through the atthakatha to the end of AN I.52
before starting on the tika. I find that Dhammapala's commentaries (like the
ones on the Netti) are more difficult to follow than Buddhaghosa's. In
translating you could just try translating the parts that make sense to you
and skip the rest.

Best wishes,
Jim


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406
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Sep 13, 2001 1:08pm
Subject: Nina's transl

 
    Dear Jim, here is the first part corrected and then the following part which
was easier thanks to you corrections.

You asked whether someone with a bhavangacitta with three hetus would be
less troubled by defilements. Accumulated inclinations during countless
lives are very intricate. When we read the Therii-thera-gaathaa, we see that
many were troubled by their defilements , but they still attained
enlightenment even to the degree of arahatship. Take A.ngulimaala, he killed
many people, but became an arahat. Someone may be greatly troubled by
defilements, but if he develops pa~n~naa he can see also defilements as only
conditioned realities, not self. If he is not aware of them and does not see
them as they are, he still takes them for my lobha, my dosa, and then they
can never be eradicated. The degree of development of pa is what is most
important. 
I heard some people say that they want to know whether their bhavangacitta
is with two or with three hetus. If it is not accompanied by pa~n~naa,
pa~n`~naa can still be developed, and if it is, well it has to be developed
on and on. Nobody can tell when he will attain enlightenment, even if he is
born with three hetus. Thus, it is useless to speculate about this. All that
can be done is developing more understanding of naama and ruupa appeaaing
now. 

After this I shall send the other parts. Now Tika: I just try, but if I
cannot find many words I have to stop. I thought like you about labbhana. I
met the suffix -ka, puttaka. I know that Masefield is an expert in
Dhammapala, but I did not join the new Pali group, it would be too much for
me. 


katha.m? yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro
vaa aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaana.m duraacaaraana.m
avattasampannaana.m puttaana~nceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaana~nca vasena
``attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti na
sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii''ti ava.n.na.m akitti.m labhanti,
eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m.

N: How is that so? For, as parents, teachers or preceptors, of good conduct,
possessed of good behaviour, because of the children, pupils or co-residents
of bad conduct, misbehhaved, disobedient, receive dispraise or disapproval
thus,  they neither instill awe to, nor discipline, admonish or exhort
their own children, their pupils, their co-residents, evenso should this
(bhavangacitta) having a similar consequence be understood.


50. dasamepi bhava"ngacittameva citta.m.

N: With reference to the tenth, consciousness is also the life-continuum.

vippamuttanti javanakkha.ne
arajjamaana.m adussamaana.m amuyhamaana.m
tihetuka~naa.nasampayuttaadikusalavasena uppajjamaana.m
aagantukehi upakkilesehi vippamutta.m naama hoti.

N: Freed: because of wholesomeness at the time of impulsion, namely, the
absence of defilements, corruptions and infatuations, and because
consciousness is accompanied by three wholesome roots, accompanied by
wisdom, and thus it is indeed freed of the arising of oncoming defilements.

idhaapi yathaa
siilavantaana.m aacaarasampannaana.m puttaadiina.m vasena maataadayo
``sobhanaa eteyeva attano puttakaadayo sikkhaapenti ovadanti
anusaasantii''ti va.n.nakittilaabhino honti, eva.m javanakkha.ne
uppannakusalacittavasena ida.m bhava"ngacitta.m aagantukehi upakkilesehi
vippamuttanti vuccatiiti.

N: Here also, just as parents etc., with virtuous conduct, possessed with
good behaviour, because of their children, etc. , acquire praise and
approval, thus:  they train, encourage, admonish their own children that
these things are indeed wholesome , evenso because of the arising of
wholesome consciousness at the time of impulsion, that life-continuum is
said to be freed of oncoming defilements.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
407
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sat Sep 15, 2001 11:09am
Subject: Nina's transl., Atth. next part

 
    Dear Jim, Oct. 9- November 4 we plan to be in India, but we never know for
sure. I shall send you now the next part and after that the last one, until
the tiika. Sarah mentioned again the text of D.N. for nibbaana:
vi~n~naa.na.m, and I still was wondering how this form could mean that what
is knowable. I had trouble with the grammatical form, but it must mean that
what you suggested.
Now the translation, I used Verdana now in my document, perhaps better, or
Helvetica? 

pa.nihitaacchavaggava.n.nanaa.

N: Explanation of the chapter on pure intention.

6. accharaasa"nghaatavaggava.n.nanaa
N: Explanation of the chapter on the Snapping of the Fingers.

51. cha.t.thassa pa.thame ta.m assutavaa puthujjanoti ta.m
bhava"ngacitta.m sutavirahito puthujjano.

N: With reference to the first section of the sixth chapter, the ordinary
person who is uninstructed, he is the ordinary person who has not heard of
that life-continuum.

agamaadhigamaabhaavaa~neyyo assutavaa iti.

N: He is not learned since he has not developed understanding of the
teachings nor (any higher) attainment of what should be attained
(bhaavaa~neyyo ?). 

yo hi ida.m sutta.m aadito pa.t.thaaya atthavasena
upaparikkhanto ``ida.m bhava"ngacitta.m naama pakatiparisuddhampi
javanakkha.ne uppannehi lobhaadiihi upakkilesehi upakkili.t.tha''nti neva
aagamavasena na adhigamavasena jaanaati, yassa ca
khandhadhaatuaayatanapaccayaakaarasatipa.t.thaanaadiisu
uggahaparipucchaavinicchayavirahitattaa
yathaabhuuta~naa.napa.tivedhasaadhako neva aagamo, pa.tipattiyaa
adhigantabbassa anadhigatattaa na adhigamo atthi.

N: (uninstructed)Because he who is investigating this sutta etc. from the
beginning, as follows: This life-continuum indeed that is also pure by
nature, is at the moment of impulsion polluted by defilements that have
arisen, such as attachment, etc. that have arisen, does not understand it,
because he has no access (to the teachings) nor has he attained the truth),
and since he, as to the aggregates, the elements, the sensefields, the
causal genesis, the applications of mindfulness etc. is exempt from study,
does not ask questions, and has no discrimination, therefore he has no
access to seeing realities as they are, as to realization and
accomplishment, and since he does not engage in the practice that should be
engaged in, he has no attainment.

so aagamaadhigamaabhaavaa
~neyyo assutavaa iti. svaaya.m --
N: He is uneducated with regard to knowledge of the teachings and attainment
that should be cultivated. He is such a person (so ayam).

As in Expositor II, p. 451:

puthuuna.m jananaadiihi, kaara.nehi puthujjano.
puthujjanantogadhattaa, puthuvaaya.m jano iti ..

N: He is a producer, etc. of many things, therefore he is an ordinary
person.
He is included among ordinary persons, (puthuvaaya.m? wind?)

so hi puthuuna.m naanappakaaraana.m kilesaadiina.m jananaadiihi kaara.nehi
puthujjano. yathaaha --

N: He is an ordinary person because of the production of manifold and
various defilements, as he said:

puthu kilese janentiiti puthujjanaa, puthu avihatasakkaayadi.t.thikaati
puthujjanaa, puthu satthaaraana.m mukhullokikaati puthujjanaa, puthu
sabbagatiihi avu.t.thitaati puthujjanaa, puthu naanaabhisa"nkhaare
abhisa"nkharontiiti puthujjanaa,

N: puthujjanaa, ordinary persons, they produce many(puthu) defilements;
ordinary persons, they have many (puthu) views of personality that are
unabandoned; ordinary persons, they look up to many teachers (look to the
face of); ordinary persons, they have not emerged from all behaviours (gati
?); ordinary persons, they accumulate many and various (kamma)conditions;

puthu naanaaoghehi vuyhantiiti
puthujjanaa, puthu naanaasantaapehi santappantiiti puthujjanaa, puthu
naanaapari.laahehi pari.dayhantiiti puthujjanaa, puthu pa~ncasu kaamagu.nesu
rattaa giddhaa gadhitaa mucchitaa ajjhopannaa laggaa laggitaa palibuddhaati
puthujjanaa, puthu pa~ncahi niivara.nehi aavutaa nivutaa ovutaa pihitaa
pa.ticchannaa pa.tikujjitaati puthujjanaati (mahaani0 51, 94).

N: ordinary persons, they are carried away by many different floods;
ordinary persons, they are anxious with many and various anxieties; ordinary
persons, they burn with many and various burnings; ordinary persons, with
regard to the manifold five sense-desires they are attached, greedy,
fettered, infatuated, hung up on them (ajjhopanna?), clinging, stuck with
them, obstructed by them; ordinary persons, they are obstructed by the five
hindrances, hemmed in, muffled up, stiffled (ovutaa?), closed in, covered up
by them;

puthuuna.m vaa ga.nanapathamatiitaana.m ariyadhammaparammukhaana.m
niicadhammasamaacaaraana.m janaana.m antogadhattaapi puthujjano, puthu vaa
aya.m visu.myeva sa"nkha.m gato, visa.msa.t.tho siilasutaadigu.nayuttehi
ariyehi janoti puthujjano.

N: ordinary person, because they are included among many, unaccountable,
turned away from the noble dhamma, given over to inferior conduct; ordinary
person, because he is common, he is separated, gone into a shell (?), he is
not associated with the noble persons who are possessed of the qualities of
right conduct, learning, etc. , (janoti?)

evametehi ``assutavaa puthujjano''ti dviihi
padehi ye te --
``duve puthujjanaa vuttaa, buddhenaadiccabandhunaa.
andho puthujjano eko, kalyaa.neko puthujjano''ti.. --

N: By these two terms the ignorant ordinary person is denoted :
By the Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, two kinds of common men have been
mentioned.
One is is a blind common person and one is a noble common person.

dve puthujjanaa vuttaa, tesu andhaputhujjano vutto hotiiti veditabbo.

N: Of the two common men that have been mentioned, the blind person that is
mentioned should be understood here.

*****

yathaabhuuta.m nappajaanaatiiti ``ida~nca bhava"ngacitta.m eva.m
aagantukehi upakkilesehi upakkili.t.tha.m naama hoti, eva.m vippamutta.m
naamaa''ti yathaasabhaavato na jaanaati. tasmaati yasmaa na jaanaati,
tasmaa. cittabhaavanaa natthiiti citta.t.thiti cittapariggaho natthi,
natthibhaaveneva ``natthii''ti vadaamiiti dasseti.

N: It is said, that he does not know things as they really are, and that
life-continuum is thus indeed corrupted by oncoming defilements, and
therefore he is not freed. This is said since he does not know of this
condition. Therefore, meaning, because he does not know of this. There is
no mind development, no stability of concentration, no acquirement (of
wisdom). He shows with the words, there is not, I say that there is thus
no development (bhaaveneva?).

***** 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
 
 
408
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:47pm
Subject: Re: Nina's transl., Atth. next part

 
    --- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> Dear Jim, Oct. 9- November 4 we plan to be in India, but we
> never know for
> sure. I shall send you now the next part and after that the
> last one, until
> the tiika. Sarah mentioned again the text of D.N. for
> nibbaana:
> vi~n~naa.na.m, and I still was wondering how this form could
> mean that what
> is knowable. I had trouble with the grammatical form, but it
> must mean that
> what you suggested.
> _______
Dear Nina,
Do you have the message number where sarah mentioned "the text
of D.N. for nibbaana"? I seem to have misplaced it.
thanks
robert

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409
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2001 9:56am
Subject: N's translation, last part.

 
    Dear Jim, this is the last part before the Tiika.

52. dutiye sutavaati sutasampanno. vitthaarato panettha assutavaati
padassa pa.tipakkhavasena attho veditabbo.

With reference to the second. Learned, this is endowed with knowledge of the
scriptures. Here however, the meaning should be understood as explained in
the way opposite to "uninstructed".

ariyasaavakoti atthi ariyo na
saavako, seyyathaapi buddhaa ceva paccekabuddhaa ca; atthi saavako na ariyo,
seyyathaapi gihii anaagataphalo; atthi neva ariyo na saavako seyyathaapi
puthutitthiyaa. atthi ariyoceva saavako ca, seyyathaapi sama.naa
sakyaputtiyaa aagataphalaa vi~n~naatasaasanaa.

The noble disciple: there are noble, enlightened persons who are not
disciples, namely Buddhas and solitary Buddhas; there are disciples who are
not enlightened ones, laymen who have not reached fruition (of the Path);
there are also those who are neither enlightened nor disciples, such as
ordinary persons who are hereticals. There are those who are enlightened and
also a disciple, such as monks, descendants of the Sakya clan who have
reached fruition and who have penetrated the teachings.

idha pana gihii vaa hotu
pabbajito vaa, yo koci sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena
sutasampanno, aya.m ariyasaavakoti veditabbo.

N: But here, be someone a layman or a monk, whoever is instructed, that is
here endowed with knowledge of the scriptures, in accordance with the
meaning that was explained, such a person should be known as a noble
disciple. 

yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatiiti
``evamida.m bhava"ngacitta.m aagantukehi upakkilesehi vippamutta.m hoti,
eva.m upakkili.t.tha''nti yathaasabhaavato jaanaati.

N: He understands as it really is: namely, in as far as he knows , that this
is indeed the life-continuum that is not freed from uncoming defilements;
this is indeed defiled, thus, in as far as he knows the state of this as it
really is. 

cittabhaavanaa
atthiiti citta.t.thiti cittapariggaho atthi, atthibhaaveneva ``atthii''ti
vadaamiiti dasseti. imasmi.m sutte balavavipassanaa kathitaa. keci
taru.navipassanaati vadanti.

N: There is mental development, namely, there is mental stability,
acquirement (of wisdom): there is thus development, as he explains with the
words, there is, I say. In this discourse insight as power has been spoken
of. Some say that it is tender insight.

******
 
410
From: <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Sun Sep 16, 2001 11:06pm
Subject: revised SPD

 
    Dear friends,

Just to tell you that in <http://www.DhammaStudy.com> we have uploaded 
the revised Summary of Paramatthadhamma, Citta chapter2, in the 
advanced section. Thanks again Bruce, and anumodana,

Amara
  
411
From: <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2001 4:48am
Subject: pali, pali and pali

 
    Dear Jim and other Pali scholars,

I have a simple question which will show up my complete 
ignorance in this area.

Would you kindly explain to me, in brief, what are the differences 
between different pali systems and which is considered to be 
the most authentic?

I understand that the Singhalese pali canon, for example, 
maybe different from the Burmese or Thai pali canon, not just in 
script (of course!) but in some of the words used. Is this right? 
How many different pali canons are there and which ones are 
mostly used by translators? How significant are these 
differences? Perhaps there is just an article you can refer me to - 
(I vaguely remember B.Bodhi discussing it in an intro. 
somewhere)

Thanks in advance (as we say here in Chinese)!

Sarah
 
412
From: Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2001 7:15am
Subject: Re: pali, pali and pali

 
    dear Sarah,

No one will know which reading is the original one
.They copy it from each other sometimes.Some palm
leaves of sinhala script may not be sinhala origin but
just a copy from thai or burmese palm leaves.many tika
in sinhala palm leaves are just a copy from burmese
script.I agree with K.norman that lanna thai(chiengmai
/laos )palm leaves give the most original
reading.Bhikkhu bodhi is very lazy for his samyutta
tran because he did not use at all cambodia,laos
,lanna thai and central thai manuscripts.

--- sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk wrote:
> Dear Jim and other Pali scholars,
> 
> I have a simple question which will show up my
> complete 
> ignorance in this area.
> 
> Would you kindly explain to me, in brief, what are
> the differences 
> between different pali systems and which is
> considered to be 
> the most authentic?
> 
> I understand that the Singhalese pali canon, for
> example, 
> maybe different from the Burmese or Thai pali canon,
> not just in 
> script (of course!) but in some of the words used.
> Is this right? 
> How many different pali canons are there and which
> ones are 
> mostly used by translators? How significant are
> these 
> differences? Perhaps there is just an article you
> can refer me to - 
> (I vaguely remember B.Bodhi discussing it in an
> intro. 
> somewhere)
> 
> Thanks in advance (as we say here in Chinese)!
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


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413
From: <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2001 9:50am
Subject: Re: pali, pali and pali

 
    Dear Teng Kee,

Thanks for these helpful comments. Is there much difference 
between them? Maybe you could give one or two examples of 
interest (just if it's convenient and you have them to hand).

Thanks again,

Sarah

--- In palistudy@y..., Ong Teng Kee <ongtkee@y...> wrote:
> dear Sarah,
> 
> No one will know which reading is the original one
> .They copy it from each other sometimes.Some palm
> leaves of sinhala script may not be sinhala origin but
> just a copy from thai or burmese palm leaves.many tika
> in sinhala palm leaves are just a copy from burmese
> script.I agree with K.norman that lanna thai(chiengmai
> /laos )palm leaves give the most original
> reading.Bhikkhu bodhi is very lazy for his samyutta
> tran because he did not use at all cambodia,laos
> ,lanna thai and central thai manuscripts.
>
 
414
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2001 10:27am
Subject: Re: Nina's transl. co 49. A.N. I 51

 
    Dear Nina,

aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro viya ca* aacariyupajjhaayaa viya ca
bhava"ngacitta.m da.t.thabba.m,

* the first 'ca' reads 'hi' in the PTS ed. The Budsir IV cd reads 'ca'.

N: the lifecontinuum should be seen as those who have a teacher, as parents,
as preceptors,

'as those who have a teacher' is incorrect for 'aacaarasampannaa'.

J: The life-continuum should be seen like the parents, teachers, and
preceptors who are [all] possessed of good behaviour,

puttaadiina.m vasena tesa.m akittilaabho viya javanakkha.ne
rajjanadussanamuyhanasabhaavaana.m lobhasahagataadiina.m* cittaana.m
vasena uppannehi aagantukehi upakkilesehi pakatiparisuddhampi
bhava"ngacitta.m upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotiiti.

* 'lobhadosamohasahagataana.m' in Budsir.

N: As the acquirement of a bad name for them, through the children etc., at
the moment of impulsion through the cittas accompanied by desire, etc.,
that are of the nature of defilement, corruption and infatuation, such is
the life-continuum, that is by nature pure, indeed soiled, by the oncoming
defilements that have arisen.

Your translation here is syntactically sound. I question the choice of
'defilement' for 'rajjana'; 'corruption' for 'dussana'; and 'infactuation'
for 'muyhana' because of their corresponding relationship to 'raaga (lobha),
dosa, & moha' respectively. I did some checking up on the word 'upakkilesa'
where 'impurity' seems to be the favoured translation in some circles.
Nyanatiloka in his dictionary thinks that 'defilement' should be reserved
for 'kilesa'. The problem with 'impurity' is that it doesn't have a
convenient cognate verb or past participle form like you can get with
defilement, stain, taint. or corruption. I thought of 'tarnish' but the pl.
noun 'tarnishes' is one I don't think I've ever seen before. The COD defines
the verb 'tarnish' as 1. "Lessen or destroy the lustre of (. . . (fig.) a
tarnished reputation)" and the noun as 3. "Loss of lustre, blemish, stain .
. ." This word seems apt in the sutta because it can be tied to both
'pabhassara' (luminous) and the reputation of parents, teachers, and
preceptors in the simile. Here's my translation but I'm still using
'defilement' for now:

J: Like their getting the blame because of the children, etc., the naturally
pure life-continuum too is indeed defiled at the moment of impulsion by the
oncoming defilements that have arisen because of the cittas accompanied by
greed, etc. having the nature of being passionate, hateful, or deluded.

Thanks for submitting the remaining parts of your translation of the
atthakatha on the AN suttas. Because I have such a big backlog of other
unanswered messages and new ones arriving it will likely take me awhile
before I can go through all your work. I'll just work on small parts at a
time and send them in when done. If we ever get to the end of it (including
the tika) we might want to continue on with the next sutta (AN I.53) because
it has quite an interesting but long commentary that goes into considerable
detail about the Buddha's daily routine which I know very little about and
would like to know more.

Best wishes,
Jim


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415
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2001 1:28pm
Subject: corrections

 
    Dear Jim, wonderful you could do some corrections, I felt a bit ashamed to
send you so much at once, but (sort of excuse) thought of India. Meanwhile I
realize that I have learnt a lot from you, even though my study is only of a
beginner. I read more easily, and I noticed that from the interesting texts
sent by Suan. In that text was the vi particle and Tadao's to particle, in
<abhavato>, the ablative. And after such particle studies you remember them
better. I believe in such studies, particles come back all the time. I am
certainly in for more.
Yes, I like it very much to continue the AN I. 53. I shall study your
corrections, many thanks.
Acarasampanno, it seems I corrected that on the computer, just overlooked
maybe.I looked and it is right in my document. Very plausible what you say
about lobha, dosa, moha, later on it is explained: lobha sahagata adiina.m.
In the next par we get the negation, thus the same counts as for lobha,
dosa, moha. 
I am also interested in manuscripts now, like Sarah and I remember you
explained one abreviation, but it escaped me. What is Budsir IV, what COD ,
what Chattasangayana?
Best wishes, Nina.
 
 
416
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 11:36am
Subject: Re: corrections

 
    Dear Nina,

>Dear Jim, wonderful you could do some corrections, I felt a bit ashamed to
>send you so much at once, but (sort of excuse) thought of India. Meanwhile
>I realize that I have learnt a lot from you, even though my study is only
of a
>beginner. I read more easily, and I noticed that from the interesting texts
>sent by Suan. In that text was the vi particle and Tadao's to particle, in
><abhavato>, the ablative. And after such particle studies you remember them
>better. I believe in such studies, particles come back all the time. I am
>certainly in for more.

It's good to hear that you are reading Pali more easily. I'm getting better
at it myself too! Did you notice the 'visi.t.thena ~naatabba.m' explanation
for 'vi~n~naatabba.m' in Suan's excerpt? I take it that the 'visit.t.hena'
explains the meaning of the 'vi' which corresponds to 'visese' in the list
of meanings of 'vi' I listed recently in July.

>Yes, I like it very much to continue the AN I. 53. I shall study your
>corrections, many thanks.

Good, we can continue on after we get to the end of the tika on AN I.52.
This thread has been on the go for quite a long time (since July 4). The
original idea I had in mind was to study and translate simple passages from
the Suttantapitaka and the Abhidhammapitaka in alternate order. However,
it's been a long time since we've worked on a passage from the
Abhidhammapitaka and it's going to be a while yet before we're done with the
current study and translation work on AN. Since Robert has set up the
Abhidhamma list, I thought a solution might be to carry on the study and
translation of portions of the Abhidhammapitaka with the commentaries on the
new list at the same time the Suttanta texts are being worked on here. If
you like the idea, we could soon go to work on an abhidhamma text. For a
basic text I have in mind the Dhammasangani. We have already worked on the
kusaladhamma paragraph at the beginning of the Nikkhepaka.n.da and we
could continue on from there. I also thought it might be better to start
with the matika at the beginning of the book and also translate the relevant
passages from the Atthasalini and the two tikas along with it like the
current AN work before resuming with the Nikkhepakanda chapter. I thought
the focus could be on learning more about the triplets and the couplets
which are important in the Patthana. Any other suggestions from list members
for a basic abhidhamma text to begin with is welcome.

>Acarasampanno, it seems I corrected that on the computer, just overlooked
>maybe.I looked and it is right in my document. Very plausible what you say
>about lobha, dosa, moha, later on it is explained: lobha sahagata adiina.m.
>In the next par we get the negation, thus the same counts as for lobha,
>dosa, moha.

The translation I checked was the original one you sent in (you only sent in
the corrections for the preceding paragraph).

>I am also interested in manuscripts now, like Sarah and I remember you
>explained one abreviation, but it escaped me. What is Budsir IV, what COD ,
>what Chattasangayana?
>Best wishes, Nina.

Budsir IV refers to a cd-rom disk I have that was produced at the Mahidol
University in Thailand. It contains the Pali Tipitaka with the Atthakatha
plus some other texts totaling 115 volumes. The 'IV' part refers to the
version that I purchased in 1996. Newer versions have since come out that
include a translation of part of it into the Thai language. Amara and Num
have this newer version. When I bought my disk I had a choice of a PC or a
Macintosh version unlike the Burmese Chatthasangayana cd-rom (CSCD)
which seems to be compatible only with the PC. This disk is the one I mostly
use -- the same one used by Suan.

You can download any of the 200+ Pali texts on the CSCD disk from the
tipitaka.org website. It's likely you will have a problem getting the right
font for your iMac in order to read these texts. The website provides the
fonts but I think they can only be used by the PC. However, I'm sure there
must be a way around this problem.

COD refers to my Concise Oxford Dictionary. Another abbreviation I use is
CPD which refers to the Critical Pali Dictionary from Copenhagen.

Best wishes,
Jim



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417
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2001 9:36am
Subject: Re: pali, pali and pali

 
    Dear Sarah,

>Dear Jim and other Pali scholars,
>
>I have a simple question which will show up my complete
>ignorance in this area.

Your simple question turns out to be not so simple!!!

>Would you kindly explain to me, in brief, what are the differences
>between different pali systems and which is considered to be
>the most authentic?

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by 'pali systems'. What comes to
my mind are the different spelling conventions (orthographies) used. For
example, some texts show a preference for double consonants instead of a
single one like the 'ss' in 'aanaapaanassati' instead of just a single 's'
as in 'aanaapaanasati'. I couldn't tell you which is the more authentic form
but I find myself having a preference for the first way of spelling because
such doubling helps one to determine the corresponding Sanskrit form
which can clarify the ambiguity of some Pali homonyms. Skt. 'smr.ti' with
the two initial consonants 'sm-' corresponds to '-ss-' in the Pali compound.
Also note the doubling in 'anussati' (anu + sati) whereas 'anusati' is
unusual.

>I understand that the Singhalese pali canon, for example,
>maybe different from the Burmese or Thai pali canon, not just in
>script (of course!) but in some of the words used. Is this right?

Yes. And I think you would also find many differences among the different
editions within each country and between different palm leaf manuscripts.
And the same would apply to older and newer editions of the PTS. The
differences are, for the most part, orthographic and minor. But there are
occasionally significant differences involving different words, omissions,
and possible insertions. Sometimes a whole sentence might occur in one canon
but be absent in another which can be problematic -- one doesn't not know
for sure whether the sentence in question got lost, or was deliberately
left out or put in.

>How many different pali canons are there and which ones are
>mostly used by translators? How significant are these
>differences? Perhaps there is just an article you can refer me to -
>(I vaguely remember B.Bodhi discussing it in an intro.
>somewhere)

I couldn't tell you how many different pali canons there are. You'd have to
be specific about what you mean by 'pali canon'. Perhaps you mean complete
printed sets of the Pali Tipitaka. But this set could be a loose one like
the volumes prepared by individual editors for the PTS over the course of
decades and not printed as a unit like a set of encyclopedia. It probably
isn't necessary for a translator to have the entire pali canon in order to
translate one or two volumes of it. I think most serious translators in the
West would make use of as many different editions as they could get their
hands on and all of them would likely have a PTS ed. of the text they're
translating. You can often find out which texts the translator based his/her
work on in the preface or introduction. Eg. from a glance at the beginning
of Vol. I of Horner's MLS, the PTS ed. of the Pali text is the one she used
for her translation and no other ed. is mentioned but she also made use of
the MA commentary and two other translations to help her.

Nowadays with easier access to Pali canons online and on
cd-roms, the translator has more to work with. Personally, I think a
translator should consult at least three different versions of the text
being translated and to follow very carefully the commentaries pertaining
to it. I have access to 5 sets of the tipitaka, 3 sets of the atthakatha
commentaries, and 1 or 2 sets of the tikas plus most of the translations
published by PTS. For some of the texts being translated on psg I have
been including some readings that are significantly different. The long
commentarial passages that Nina has been translating are from the Burmese
Chatthasangayana ed. on the cd-rom disk. It is much easier for me to copy
and paste from this disk than having to manually type out every word from
the PTS ed. and it's too inconvenient and time-consuming to copy and paste
passages from the Thai Budsir disk but I can at least check for significant
differences in their readings.

I think a good place to find more information on translation work are in
the prefaces and introductions of translators' works.

I have gathered up some information on 'jhaayii' (meditator) which I will
post as soon as I get the documentation together. 'jhaayii' also includes
the one developing vipassanaa much like the way 'jhaayatha' (meditate)
includes vipassanaa practice.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
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418
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:10pm
Subject: Re: upa prefix

 
    op 21-09-2001 17:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

Since Robert has set up the
> Abhidhamma list, I thought a solution might be to carry on the study and
> translation of portions of the Abhidhammapitaka with the commentaries on the
> new list at the same time the Suttanta texts are being worked on here. If
> you like the idea, we could soon go to work on an abhidhamma text. For a
> basic text I have in mind the Dhammasangani. We have already worked on the
> kusaladhamma paragraph at the beginning of the Nikkhepaka.n.da and we
> could continue on from there. I also thought it might be better to start
> with the matika at the beginning of the book and also translate the relevant
> passages from the Atthasalini and the two tikas along with it like the
> current AN work before resuming with the Nikkhepakanda chapter. I thought
> the focus could be on learning more about the triplets and the couplets
> which are important in the Patthana. Any other suggestions from list members
> for a basic abhidhamma text to begin with is welcome.

Dear Jim, 
>I like it very much to also read Dhsg and commentaries. It depends on the
logistics on which list, who will get what or miss out what. I cannot judge
that. I have no preference.

Yes, I noticed vi-, specially, in Suan's text.
Now we are at upa- in upakilesa. You had suggestions on the translation. I
tried to do a little research:
upa: nearness, approach, close by, and this can be as a support or by way of
hindrance. It can be intensive or diminutive:
upagacchami, to approach. upakaara, help, support. upakkama, means,
approach, attack. upanamati, to come near. upatthambeti, to support.
upakkilesa, defilement, anything that spoils or obstructs.

Kilesas can be classifieid as three different levels: viitikkama kilesa, the
coarse ones that motivate evil deeds (transgression), upakkilesa, the medium
ones that are conascent with the akusala citta, and the latent tendencies,
the anusaya kilesas.
I do not draw a conclusion from the examples of upa yet.

As to the daily routine of the Buddha, I like to read this later on. Not
only in Ang. Co, but also there is a text about this in the Suma.ngala
Vilaasinii, I. 45, I read this in Warren's translation.
I am afraid I cannot do any difficult things with my computer like
downloading Pali with the right font, and will be grateful if you can send
texts later on. Moreover, these have to be transscribed for E mail also,
which is not easy. 
Best wishes, Nina. 




>> Acarasampanno, it seems I corrected that on the computer, just overlooked
>> maybe.I looked and it is right in my document. Very plausible what you say
>> about lobha, dosa, moha, later on it is explained: lobha sahagata adiina.m.
>> In the next par we get the negation, thus the same counts as for lobha,
>> dosa, moha.
> 
> The translation I checked was the original one you sent in (you only sent in
> the corrections for the preceding paragraph).
> 
>> I am also interested in manuscripts now, like Sarah and I remember you
>> explained one abreviation, but it escaped me. What is Budsir IV, what COD ,
>> what Chattasangayana?
>> Best wishes, Nina.
> 
> Budsir IV refers to a cd-rom disk I have that was produced at the Mahidol
> University in Thailand. It contains the Pali Tipitaka with the Atthakatha
> plus some other texts totaling 115 volumes. The 'IV' part refers to the
> version that I purchased in 1996. Newer versions have since come out that
> include a translation of part of it into the Thai language. Amara and Num
> have this newer version. When I bought my disk I had a choice of a PC or a
> Macintosh version unlike the Burmese Chatthasangayana cd-rom (CSCD)
> which seems to be compatible only with the PC. This disk is the one I mostly
> use -- the same one used by Suan.
> 
> You can download any of the 200+ Pali texts on the CSCD disk from the
> tipitaka.org website. It's likely you will have a problem getting the right
> font for your iMac in order to read these texts. The website provides the
> fonts but I think they can only be used by the PC. However, I'm sure there
> must be a way around this problem.
> 
> COD refers to my Concise Oxford Dictionary. Another abbreviation I use is
> CPD which refers to the Critical Pali Dictionary from Copenhagen.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>
 
419
From: <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:20pm
Subject: Re: pali, pali and pali

 
    Dear Jim,

Many thanks for this response...I'm sorry some of my questions 
were not very clear (and simple was not so simple), but you've 
answered anyway. I had not appreciated before that there may 
be sentences or more in some manuscripst and not others but 
I'm glad to hear that in most cases the differences are minor. I 
will take more note of this area in translator's introductions now.

thanks very much to you & Teng kee.

I look f/w to more on 'jhaayii', but no hurry at all.

in a rush,
Sarah

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> 
wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> 
> >Dear Jim and other Pali scholars,
> >
> >I have a simple question which will show up my complete
> >ignorance in this area.
> 
> Your simple question turns out to be not so simple!!!
> 
> >Would you kindly explain to me, in brief, what are the 
differences
> >between different pali systems and which is considered to be
> >the most authentic?
> 
> I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by 'pali systems'. 
What comes to
> my mind are the different spelling conventions (orthographies) 
used. For
> example, some texts show a preference for double 
consonants instead of a
> single one like the 'ss' in 'aanaapaanassati' instead of just a 
single 's'
> as in 'aanaapaanasati'. I couldn't tell you which is the more 
authentic form
> but I find myself having a preference for the first way of spelling 
because
> such doubling helps one to determine the corresponding 
Sanskrit form
> which can clarify the ambiguity of some Pali homonyms. Skt. 
'smr.ti' with
> the two initial consonants 'sm-' corresponds to '-ss-' in the Pali 
compound.
> Also note the doubling in 'anussati' (anu + sati) whereas 
'anusati' is
> unusual.
> 
> >I understand that the Singhalese pali canon, for example,
> >maybe different from the Burmese or Thai pali canon, not just 
in
> >script (of course!) but in some of the words used. Is this 
right?
> 
> Yes. And I think you would also find many differences among 
the different
> editions within each country and between different palm leaf 
manuscripts.
> And the same would apply to older and newer editions of the 
PTS. The
> differences are, for the most part, orthographic and minor. But 
there are
> occasionally significant differences involving different words, 
omissions,
> and possible insertions. Sometimes a whole sentence might 
occur in one canon
> but be absent in another which can be problematic -- one 
doesn't not know
> for sure whether the sentence in question got lost, or was 
deliberately
> left out or put in.
> 
> >How many different pali canons are there and which ones are
> >mostly used by translators? How significant are these
> >differences? Perhaps there is just an article you can refer me 
to -
> >(I vaguely remember B.Bodhi discussing it in an intro.
> >somewhere)
> 
> I couldn't tell you how many different pali canons there are. 
You'd have to
> be specific about what you mean by 'pali canon'. Perhaps you 
mean complete
> printed sets of the Pali Tipitaka. But this set could be a loose 
one like
> the volumes prepared by individual editors for the PTS over the 
course of
> decades and not printed as a unit like a set of encyclopedia. It 
probably
> isn't necessary for a translator to have the entire pali canon in 
order to
> translate one or two volumes of it. I think most serious 
translators in the
> West would make use of as many different editions as they 
could get their
> hands on and all of them would likely have a PTS ed. of the text 
they're
> translating. You can often find out which texts the translator 
based his/her
> work on in the preface or introduction. Eg. from a glance at the 
beginning
> of Vol. I of Horner's MLS, the PTS ed. of the Pali text is the one 
she used
> for her translation and no other ed. is mentioned but she also 
made use of
> the MA commentary and two other translations to help her.
> 
> Nowadays with easier access to Pali canons online and on
> cd-roms, the translator has more to work with. Personally, I 
think a
> translator should consult at least three different versions of the 
text
> being translated and to follow very carefully the commentaries 
pertaining
> to it. I have access to 5 sets of the tipitaka, 3 sets of the 
atthakatha
> commentaries, and 1 or 2 sets of the tikas plus most of the 
translations
> published by PTS. For some of the texts being translated on 
psg I have
> been including some readings that are significantly different. 
The long
> commentarial passages that Nina has been translating are 
from the Burmese
> Chatthasangayana ed. on the cd-rom disk. It is much easier for 
me to copy
> and paste from this disk than having to manually type out every 
word from
> the PTS ed. and it's too inconvenient and time-consuming to 
copy and paste
> passages from the Thai Budsir disk but I can at least check for 
significant
> differences in their readings.
> 
> I think a good place to find more information on translation 
work are in
> the prefaces and introductions of translators' works.
> 
> I have gathered up some information on 'jhaayii' (meditator) 
which I will
> post as soon as I get the documentation together. 'jhaayii' also 
includes
> the one developing vipassanaa much like the way 'jhaayatha' 
(meditate)
> includes vipassanaa practice.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
_______
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
420
From: <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2001 3:59am
Subject: jhaayii & co

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> 
wrote:
> I have gathered up some information on 'jhaayii' (meditator) 
which I will
> post as soon as I get the documentation together. 'jhaayii' also 
includes
> the one developing vipassanaa much like the way 'jhaayatha' 
(meditate)
> includes vipassanaa practice.
> 

Jim,

I also recently came across some refs to jhaayino in 36., The 
2nd Not Deceiving Sutta, Itivuttaka (trans Masefield). He has a 
footnote raising many qus(about grammar & meaning). Looks 
like referring to arahats to me here and in 38, the Thought Sutta.: 
'the Great Rishi who, thrusting aside the gloom, has gone 
beyond.......' I didn't know what a rishi was which is why I started 
checking the pali. Actually I was looking at this sutta, mentioned 
by Mike on dsg b/c i wanted to find the pali for 'delighting' as in 
'delighting in an absence of ill-will', but I found my friend jhaayino 
instead.
 
421
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2001 11:10am
Subject: Re: jhaayii & co

 
    Dear Sarah,

>Jim,
>
>I also recently came across some refs to jhaayino in 36., The
>2nd Not Deceiving Sutta, Itivuttaka (trans Masefield). He has a
>footnote raising many qus(about grammar & meaning). Looks
>like referring to arahats to me here and in 38, the Thought Sutta.:
>'the Great Rishi who, thrusting aside the gloom, has gone
>beyond.......' I didn't know what a rishi was which is why I started
>checking the pali. Actually I was looking at this sutta, mentioned
>by Mike on dsg b/c i wanted to find the pali for 'delighting' as in
>'delighting in an absence of ill-will', but I found my friend jhaayino
>instead.

If you have Masefield's translation of the commentary on the Itivuttaka,
which I don't have, you should find a definition of 'jhaayii' at It-a 106
(PTS ed.). The Pali text reads:

jhaayii ti aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena caa ti dviihi pi
jhaanehi jhaayii.

"meditating" -- meditating by means of the two jhaanas thus: by means of
meditating on an object and by means of meditating on a characteristic.

I left 'pi' untranslated because I'm not quite sure of its function. It
might be telling us that 'dviihi jhaanehi' is an additional definition but I
don't know which two jhaanas are meant if they aren't the same as the two
upanijjhaanas. Also I'm not sure if 'jhaayino' is really an adjective.
Woodward translates it as such with 'musing'. But 'meditators' or 'musers'
seems possible. 'Delighting' could be a word derived from the root 'ram'
(see under the verb 'ramati'). Great Rishi is 'mahesi' (mahaa + isi; Skt.
mahar.si).'isi' is commonly translated as 'sage'.

I have also found that the verbal roots of citta, jhaana, and sati (cint,
jhe, sar) all have the same primitive meaning of 'cintaa' (thinking) in the
Dhatumala (garland of roots).

Best wishes,
Jim


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422
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Tue Sep 25, 2001 9:43pm
Subject: Re: upa prefix

 
    Dear Nina,

>Dear Jim,
>>I like it very much to also read Dhsg and commentaries. It depends on the
>logistics on which list, who will get what or miss out what. I cannot judge
>that. I have no preference.

As long as there's no objection to studying and translating small parts of
Dhs and its commentaries on the Abhidhamma list, we can try working there.
Everyone on the psg list is also subscribed on the new list so no one should
miss out.

>Yes, I noticed vi-, specially, in Suan's text.
>Now we are at upa- in upakilesa. You had suggestions on the translation.
>I tried to do a little research:
>upa: nearness, approach, close by, and this can be as a support or by way
>of hindrance. It can be intensive or diminutive:
>upagacchami, to approach. upakaara, help, support. upakkama, means,
>approach, attack. upanamati, to come near. upatthambeti, to support.
>upakkilesa, defilement, anything that spoils or obstructs.

"upa: nearness, approach, close by" sounds like it. See below.

>Kilesas can be classifieid as three different levels: viitikkama kilesa,
the
>coarse ones that motivate evil deeds (transgression), upakkilesa, the
medium
>ones that are conascent with the akusala citta, and the latent tendencies,
>the anusaya kilesas.
>I do not draw a conclusion from the examples of upa yet.

Whereabout in the Pali texts can I find this threefold classification of
kilesa? There is a sutta at AN III.100 that gives three groups of three
upakkilesas -- coarse, medium, and subtle.

The following is from the tika to AN I.49:
"raagaadayo upecca cittasantaana.m kilissanti vibaadhenti upataapenti caati
aaha -- upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihiiti."

J: Passion, etc., having approached, defile, oppress, and harass the
continuity of consciousness . . .

I think 'upecca' (having approached) explains the 'upa' part in
'upakkilesa'. 'upecca' is an absolutive of the verb 'upeti' -- to come to,
approach. Notice also the two synonyms following the verb 'kilissanti' which
match two of the three primitive meanings of the root 'kilis':

928 kilisa baadhane
1183 kilisa upataape
1260 kilisa vibaadhane
(from the Saddaniti)

The AN com. to I.49 defines 'upakkilesehi' as 'raagaadiihi'. Do you think
this is a short list consisting of only raaga, dosa, and moha or a longer
one?

>As to the daily routine of the Buddha, I like to read this later on. Not
>only in Ang. Co, but also there is a text about this in the Suma.ngala
>Vilaasinii, I. 45, I read this in Warren's translation.

I glanced over the two commentaries on the Buddha's daily routine and they
both look similar. In addition to Warren's translation, we will also have B.
Bodhi's translation to help us out.

>I am afraid I cannot do any difficult things with my computer like
>downloading Pali with the right font, and will be grateful if you can send
>texts later on. Moreover, these have to be transscribed for E mail also,
>which is not easy.
>Best wishes, Nina.

I can understand the difficulties you would run into. I can continue to
provide the texts for translation in the email format.

Best wishes,
Jim


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423
From: <sarahdhhk@yahoo.com.hk> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 2:20am
Subject: Re: jhaayii & co

 
    Dear Jim,

--- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> 
wrote:
> If you have Masefield's translation of the commentary on the 
Itivuttaka,
> which I don't have, you should find a definition of 'jhaayii' at It-a 
106
> (PTS ed.). The Pali text reads:
> 
> jhaayii ti aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena 
lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena caa ti dviihi pi
> jhaanehi jhaayii.
> 
> "meditating" -- meditating by means of the two jhaanas thus: by 
means of
> meditating on an object and by means of meditating on a 
characteristic.
> 
> I left 'pi' untranslated because I'm not quite sure of its function. 
It
> might be telling us that 'dviihi jhaanehi' is an additional 
definition but I
> don't know which two jhaanas are meant if they aren't the 
same as the two
> upanijjhaanas.

thanks. I don't have the Itt. com (as yet)>

Also I'm not sure if 'jhaayino' is really an adjective.
> Woodward translates it as such with 'musing'. But 'meditators' 
or 'musers'
> seems possible. 

Masefield says (note 42, p115) (& I just repeat for you as I'd have 
no idea):
'jhaayino: this term can be either dat/gen sing, or nom/acc pl. 
Ireland seems to take this in apposition to arahata.m (gen pl), 
which is ungram. Woodward, on the other hand, seems to take 
it as nom pl, in apposition to gaha.t.thaa gharam esino (the 
household-seekers, those stationed in the home), which I follow, 
despite the fact that this seems to raise serious doctrinal qus- 
such as why such highly qualified individuals would still be so 
attached to sense-pleasures assoc. with the world of 
sense-desires- which Dhammapaala completely fails to adress 
in his cty.'

yr comments on the grammar and this note will be interesting, 
but pls don't let it jump the queue!

'Delighting' could be a word derived from the root 'ram'
> (see under the verb 'ramati'). 

In the dict it just says for this 'to enjoy oneself, to delight in' - no 
time to follow the refs.

Great Rishi is 'mahesi' (mahaa + isi; Skt.
> mahar.si).'isi' is commonly translated as 'sage'.
Yes of course as in 'Rishikesh' or 'Maharishi'....

'Sage' sounds better in English. This was a transl of jhaayino 
above.
> 
> I have also found that the verbal roots of citta, jhaana, and sati 
(cint,
> jhe, sar) all have the same primitive meaning of 'cintaa' 
(thinking) in the
> Dhatumala (garland of roots).

interesting!
> 

Thanks Jim. 

Sarah
 
424
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 1:01pm
Subject: upa-nijjhaayati

 
    Dear Jim, Sarah, Jon,
Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago:
Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
(thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito
(beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca
vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati
maapamajjittha.
In this light the use of the word kammatthaana is of interest: not only for
samatha, also for vipassana, and there it is object of right understanding.
I just read in the Samuyutta Nikaya IV, Migajaalavaggo, 71,
Chaphassaayatanikaa, the six spheres of contact, the aayatanas.( I know
Robert likes this, he is always interested in the ayatanas.) The Commentary
I have only in Thai: The bhikkhu does not understand these ayatanas, and we
read that the Buddha was thinking what kammathana would be helpful for that
monk who had no viriya for the kammathanas of the dhatus , kasinas or other
subjects. He thought that the kammathana of the ayatanas would be a sappaya,
helpful condition for that monk. He then asked whether the eye is I, mine or
myself, etc. And so on for the other ayatanas. This sutta is a helpful
condition for me too, I find.

Nijjhaayati is the same in meaning as upanijjhaayati, reflect, meditate,
but upa here could mean: support. In other contexts upa could be nearness in
the sense of an ennemy, a hindrance, perhaps in: upakilesa ?
I had not thought before of the prefix vi in vi~n~naa.na, meaning: knowing
clearly, precisely or in detail. And also: that which should be known
clearly, as explained in abh list.
A minor point: in the Tika I am studying, further on, between brakets there
is an O plus numbers. Can I ignore this?
Best wishes, Nina.
 
 
425
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@rocketmail.com> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:25pm
Subject: Re: upa-nijjhaayati

 
    Dear nina,
I was just packing up some books to send to japan - including
the kindred sayings . Thanks very much for this commentary as i
have this passage marked out in the book. So interesting and
helpful.
robert
--- Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> wrote:
> Dear Jim, Sarah, Jon,
> Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago:
> Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
> Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena
> a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
> (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
> aniccaadito
> (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha.
> Samatha~n ca
> vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa
> pamaadatthaati
> maapamajjittha.
> In this light the use of the word kammatthaana is of interest:
> not only for
> samatha, also for vipassana, and there it is object of right
> understanding.
> I just read in the Samuyutta Nikaya IV, Migajaalavaggo, 71,
> Chaphassaayatanikaa, the six spheres of contact, the
> aayatanas.( I know
> Robert likes this, he is always interested in the ayatanas.)
> The Commentary
> I have only in Thai: The bhikkhu does not understand these
> ayatanas, and we
> read that the Buddha was thinking what kammathana would be
> helpful for that
> monk who had no viriya for the kammathanas of the dhatus ,
> kasinas or other
> subjects. He thought that the kammathana of the ayatanas would
> be a sappaya,
> helpful condition for that monk. He then asked whether the eye
> is I, mine or
> myself, etc. And so on for the other ayatanas. This sutta is a
> helpful
> condition for me too, I find.
> 
> Nijjhaayati is the same in meaning as upanijjhaayati, reflect,
> meditate,
> but upa here could mean: support. In other contexts upa could
> be nearness in
> the sense of an ennemy, a hindrance, perhaps in: upakilesa ?
> I had not thought before of the prefix vi in vi~n~naa.na,
> meaning: knowing
> clearly, precisely or in detail. And also: that which should
> be known
> clearly, as explained in abh list.
> A minor point: in the Tika I am studying, further on, between
> brakets there
> is an O plus numbers. Can I ignore this?
> Best wishes, Nina. 
> 
> 


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426
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 10:52pm
Subject: Re: upa-nijjhaayati

 
    Dear Nina,

Thank-you for quoting the MA excerpt and for your interesting comments. See
below for mine.

>Dear Jim, Sarah, Jon,
>Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago:
>Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
>Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
>(thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito
>(beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca
>vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati
>maapamajjittha.
>In this light the use of the word kammatthaana is of interest: not only for
>samatha, also for vipassana, and there it is object of right understanding.
>I just read in the Samuyutta Nikaya IV, Migajaalavaggo, 71,
>Chaphassaayatanikaa, the six spheres of contact, the aayatanas.( I know
>Robert likes this, he is always interested in the ayatanas.) The Commentary
>I have only in Thai: The bhikkhu does not understand these ayatanas, and we
>read that the Buddha was thinking what kammathana would be helpful for that
>monk who had no viriya for the kammathanas of the dhatus , kasinas or other
>subjects. He thought that the kammathana of the ayatanas would be a
sappaya,
>helpful condition for that monk. He then asked whether the eye is I, mine
or
>myself, etc. And so on for the other ayatanas. This sutta is a helpful
>condition for me too, I find.
>
>Nijjhaayati is the same in meaning as upanijjhaayati, reflect, meditate,
>but upa here could mean: support. In other contexts upa could be nearness
in
>the sense of an ennemy, a hindrance, perhaps in: upakilesa ?

I haven't found anything yet to explain the meaning of 'upa' but did find
two passages explaining the 'ni' along with some other prefixes with
'jhaayati':

jhaayatiiti cinteti. pajjhaayatiiti bhusa.m cinteti. nijjhaayatiiti
anekavidhena cinteti. apajjhaayatiiti tato apagantvaa cinteti.
-- Mahaniddesa-atthakatha 2.274

jhaayatiiti cinteti. sa.mjhaayatiiti ito c'ito ca naanappakaaraka.m
jhaayati. nijjhaayatiiti nirantaravasena nibaddha.m jhaayati. -- AA v 79

'nibaddha.m' as an adverb means: constantly, always, continually (PED).
Another possibility for 'upa' could be its use as an intensifier (bhusatthe)
as in 'upanissaya' -- strong-dependence.

There is an interesting passage (which you probably already know about) in
the Atthasalini explaining the two upanijjhaanas in greater detail. See DhsA
167 or The Expositor p. 222-3. P.M. Tin translates 'upanijjhaayati' as
'examines closely'.

>I had not thought before of the prefix vi in vi~n~naa.na, meaning: knowing
>clearly, precisely or in detail. And also: that which should be known
>clearly, as explained in abh list.

On page 84 of The Expositor, P.M. Tin translates 'vijaanati' as 'is aware
variously'. I take it that 'variously' is related to 'vividhe' which is one
of the meanings of 'vi' that we touched on earlier. But the senses of
'clearly, precisely, etc.' seem to relate to 'visese' (distinction) in my
mind.

>A minor point: in the Tika I am studying, further on, between brakets there
>is an O plus numbers. Can I ignore this?
>Best wishes, Nina.

Just ignore. Bracketed items like "(dii0 ni0 3.317; ma0 ni0 2.25)" are
giving references for the aforementioned quote. dii0 ni0 = Dighanikaya, 3 =
vol. 3, 317 = page number of the Burmese Chatthasangayana printed ed.

Best wishes,
Jim


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427
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2001 11:33am
Subject: 'Aggivessana'

 
    Dear Jim et al,

Christine was asking in one of her posts what 'Aggivessana' meant, I 
think it is used in several places to address the Nigghantha people, 
and I know that 'aggi' means fire, while 'vessana' has something to do 
with dwelling, doesn't it (just guessing here)? Would this mean that 
they were fire worshippers too? Or just that they are warm, living 
people?

Thanks in advance,

Amara
 
 
428
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2001 10:56pm
Subject: Re: 'Aggivessana'

 
    Dear Amara,

>Dear Jim et al,
>
>Christine was asking in one of her posts what 'Aggivessana' meant, I
>think it is used in several places to address the Nigghantha people,
>and I know that 'aggi' means fire, while 'vessana' has something to do
>with dwelling, doesn't it (just guessing here)? Would this mean that
>they were fire worshippers too? Or just that they are warm, living
>people?

I think Christine has had her question answered by Sakula on d-l. You're
quite right about 'aggi' having the meaning of fire, but it is more
difficult to find out the meaning of 'vessana'. It could have something to
do with dwelling. Aggivessana is a proper name derived from 'Aggivessa', I
think, with the addition of the patronymic affix 'aana' showing some kind of
successor or descendant relationship. For 'vessa' PED only gives: "a
Vai"sya, ie. a member of the third social (ie. lower) grade, a man of the
people" but more can be found out in a Sanskrit dictionary as follows:

ve"sya: 1. the habitation of harlots; 2. Ved. abode, residence
agnive"sa: N. of an ancient medical authority
agnive"sya: 1. N. of a teacher; 2. Name of the 22nd muhuurta

So perhaps a literal meaning of 'aggivessa' might be 'abode of fire' or
'Agni's abode' if we think of the fire god. Maybe a name for the sun?? But
this is only guessing.

Best wishes,
Jim


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429
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2001 11:33pm
Subject: Re: 'Aggivessana'

 
    --- In palistudy@y..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
> 
> >Dear Jim et al,
> >
> >Christine was asking in one of her posts what 'Aggivessana' meant, 
I
> >think it is used in several places to address the Nigghantha 
people,
> >and I know that 'aggi' means fire, while 'vessana' has something to 
do
> >with dwelling, doesn't it (just guessing here)? Would this mean 
that
> >they were fire worshippers too? Or just that they are warm, living
> >people?
> 
> I think Christine has had her question answered by Sakula on d-l. 
You're
> quite right about 'aggi' having the meaning of fire, but it is more
> difficult to find out the meaning of 'vessana'. It could have 
something to
> do with dwelling. Aggivessana is a proper name derived from 
'Aggivessa', I
> think, with the addition of the patronymic affix 'aana' showing some 
kind of
> successor or descendant relationship. For 'vessa' PED only gives: "a
> Vai"sya, ie. a member of the third social (ie. lower) grade, a man 
of the
> people" but more can be found out in a Sanskrit dictionary as 
follows:
> 
> ve"sya: 1. the habitation of harlots; 2. Ved. abode, residence
> agnive"sa: N. of an ancient medical authority
> agnive"sya: 1. N. of a teacher; 2. Name of the 22nd muhuurta
> 
> So perhaps a literal meaning of 'aggivessa' might be 'abode of fire' 
or
> 'Agni's abode' if we think of the fire god. Maybe a name for the 
sun?? But
> this is only guessing.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you for all the wonderful details,

Amara
 
 
430
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2001 9:59am
Subject: Re: nibaddha.m, not just once or twice

 
    op 26-09-2001 03:43 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:
Dear Jim, thank you for all the valuable material I studied it. Now I shall
go over it: 
N: Kilesas can be classified as three different levels: viitikkama kilesa,
> the
>> coarse ones that motivate evil deeds (transgression), upakkilesa, the
> medium
>> ones that are conascent with the akusala citta, and the latent tendencies,
>> the anusaya kilesas.
Jim: 
> Whereabout in the Pali texts can I find this threefold classification of
> kilesa? There is a sutta at AN III.100 that gives three groups of three
> upakkilesas -- coarse, medium, and subtle.

Nina: I could not trace the text, is it about the refining of the gold? I
doubt it whether this classification can be found in the Suttanta, mostly
ten kinds of akusala are classified as kilesas. But, when we use kilesa in a
wider sense, including all kinds of akusala, can it not be said that akusala
kamma patha is coarse, akusala citta that does not motivate an evil deed, is
medium, and the latent tendencies dormant in each citta are subtle? The
Atthas. explains about akusala kamma patha, and which factors make it a
complete action, thus more coarse, and also in the Vinaya we find that, when
a monk who pushed someone so that he died, the Buddha asked him: did you
have the intention to kill him? There is a difference here. And also there
are many shades and degrees of akusala kammas and akusala cittas. I shall
ask in India for a text.

Jim: The AN com. to I.49 defines 'upakkilesehi' as 'raagaadiihi'. Do you
think
> this is a short list consisting of only raaga, dosa, and moha or a longer
> one?
Nina:Lobha, dosa and moha are mentioned in such places because I think, they
are the akusala hetus, which are the roots of akusala citta. Each akusala
citta is, besides by the akusala hetu also accompanied by other akusala
cetasikas but all of them are rooted in one or two of these three roots. I
think that all akusala cetasikas are implied here.
I found the Atth text about the upanijjhaanas very interesting. When we do
not know the Pali term we read it and pass it by easily, without getting the
real meaning, but the purpose of Buddhaghosa is realizing the true meaning.
Now it can be a reminder that pa~n~naa should closely examine, investigate,
frequently, not just once or twice, consider the khandhas, dhaatus,
aayatanas, that is, naama and ruupa appearing now. That is upanijjhaayati of
vipassanaa, and then eventrually it can be upanijjhaayati of magga and
phala. When I see the examples of the Mahaaaniddesa, I am also reminded how
subtle pa~n~naa should become, more and more accomplished: frequently
pondering over, pondering over in various ways. In which sutta of the
Mahaniddesa, then I can look it up in my Thai edition.
I am very keen to see the Text of A.V, 79, is it Book of Tens, Ch V, at
Kusiinaraa? If I find the English I can look up the Co. in Thai. I have
trouble with the way texts are referred to.
apjjhaayatiiti tato apagantvaa (departed) cinteti? This is a negative?
Strange that P.T.S. only gives to be overcome with grief, whereas my
Buddhadatta dict gives also pondering over for pajjhaayati.
I think that in vi~n~naa.na the vi could refer to variously, in detail, as
well as to clearly, precisely. Citta (vi~n~naa.na) knows clearly an object,
but also: it cognizes all details.
When we are going to read the Couplets and Triplets of Dhsg I think that
Ven. Nyanaponka's Abhidhamma studies could be helpful, he explains some of
this material. 
Best wishes, Nina. 

Upa: strong dependence, or support.
 
 
431
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2001 10:07pm
Subject: Re: nibaddha.m, not just once or twice

 
    I sent this message earlier today but it apparently didn't make it through
so I'm sending it aagain a second time. Sorry if you get the same message
twice.

Dear Nina,

Thanks for your answers and comments which I may respond to at a later time.

>In which sutta of theMahaniddesa, then I can look it up in my
>Thai edition.

It's in the Tissametteyyasutta (the fifth verse -- Sn 818). Norman
translates the verse as:

818. Overcome by the figments (of his imagination) he broods like a poor
man. Hearing the outcry of others, one of such a kind becomes dejected. --
The Group of Discourses, Vol. II.

broods = jhaayati. The Mahaniddesa and its commentary expands on this word.

The phrasing 'jhaayanti, pajjhaayanti, nijjhaayanti, apajjhaayanti' occurs
at MN I 334 & III 14 and like Nidd1.149f ad Sn 818 is used negatively by
Duusi Maaro and the Bhagavaa respectively.

>I am very keen to see the Text of A.V, 79, is it Book of Tens, Ch V, at
>Kusiinaraa? If I find the English I can look up the Co. in Thai. I have
>trouble with the way texts are referred to.

The AA commentary extract belongs to AN XI.10 in Gradual Sayings (vol.v
204ff). The commentary refers to this sutta as the ninth in the first vagga
and it seems that the PTS ed. has included an extra sutta (no. 7) which is
not in my Devanagari ed. I follow the commentary in taking the sutta as no.
9. No. 8 is the same as no. 7 but with an added paragraph at the end. Most
of my references are to the PTS eds. I'll make a point of including an extra
ref. to help you and others locate passages eg. AA v 79 ad AN XI.10(properly
9).

Interestingly, the same phrasing is also used negatively in this sutta and
it doesn't appear to be used positively anywhere in the Suttantapitaka. This
is new to me as I didn't know that 'jhaayati' was used in this way.

>apjjhaayatiiti tato apagantvaa (departed) cinteti? This is a negative?

"Having gone away from it, he thinks". It's not a negative (a +
pajjhaayati). The verb is made up of apa + jhaayati. apagate is one of the
meanings of the prefix 'apa'.

>Strange that P.T.S. only gives to be overcome with grief, whereas my
>Buddhadatta dict gives also pondering over for pajjhaayati.

The PED derives 'pajjhaayati' from a different 'jhaayati (2)' meaning 'to
burn' and does not have an entry for the one derived from 'jhaayati (1)' --
to meditate.

>I think that in vi~n~naa.na the vi could refer to variously, in detail, as
>well as to clearly, precisely. Citta (vi~n~naa.na) knows clearly an object,
>but also: it cognizes all details.

I agree. I think a prefix could have several meanings in the same word.

>When we are going to read the Couplets and Triplets of Dhsg I think that
>Ven. Nyanaponka's Abhidhamma studies could be helpful, he explains some of
>this material.
>Best wishes, Nina.

I happen to have "Abhidhamma Studies" so we'll be able to make use of it.
However, I don't think I'll start posting any material from Dhs and
commentaries until early November seeing that you'll soon be going away for
a month. I will also be away for a 10 day period starting this Thursday and
would like to take a break from replying to list email for a while. I have
been studying the AN I.50 com. and it may take some time yet before I'll
have a reply for you.

Best wishes,
Jim



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432
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2001 11:42am
Subject: Re: nibaddha.m, not just once or twice

 
    Dear Nina,

Thanks for your comments which I may respond to at a later time.

>In which sutta of theMahaniddesa, then I can look it up in my
>Thai edition.

It's in the Tissametteyyasutta (the fifth verse -- Sn 818). Norman
translates the verse as:

818. Overcome by the figments (of his imagination) he broods like a poor
man. Hearing the outcry of others, one of such a kind becomes dejected. --
The Group of Discourses, Vol. II.

broods = jhaayati. The Mahaniddesa and its commentary expands on this word.

The phrasing 'jhaayanti, pajjhaayanti, nijjhaayanti, apajjhaayanti' occurs
at MN I 334 & III 14 and like Nidd1.149f ad Sn 818 is used negatively by
Duusi Maaro and the Bhagavaa respectively.

>I am very keen to see the Text of A.V, 79, is it Book of Tens, Ch V, at
>Kusiinaraa? If I find the English I can look up the Co. in Thai. I have
>trouble with the way texts are referred to.

The AA commentary extract belongs to AN XI.10 in Gradual Sayings (vol.v
204ff). The commentary refers to this sutta as the ninth in the first vagga
and it seems that the PTS ed. has included an extra sutta (no. 7) which is
not in my Devanagari ed. I follow the commentary in taking the sutta as no.
9. No. 8 is the same as no. 7 but with an added paragraph at the end. Most
of my references are to the PTS eds. I'll make a point of including an extra
ref. to help you and others locate passages eg. AA v 79 ad AN XI.10(properly
9).

Interestingly, the same phrasing is also used negatively in this sutta and
it doesn't appear to be used positively anywhere in the Suttantapitaka. This
is new to me as I didn't know that 'jhaayati' was used in this way.

>apjjhaayatiiti tato apagantvaa (departed) cinteti? This is a negative?

"Having moved away from it, he thinks". It's not a negative (a +
pajjhaayati). The verb is made up of apa + jhaayati. apagate is one of the
meanings of the prefix 'apa'.

>Strange that P.T.S. only gives to be overcome with grief, whereas my
>Buddhadatta dict gives also pondering over for pajjhaayati.

The PED derives 'pajjhaayati' from a different 'jhaayati (2)' meaning 'to
burn' and does not have an entry for the one derived from 'jhaayati (1)' --
to meditate.

>I think that in vi~n~naa.na the vi could refer to variously, in detail, as
>well as to clearly, precisely. Citta (vi~n~naa.na) knows clearly an object,
>but also: it cognizes all details.

I think that a prefix could share several meanings in the same word.

>When we are going to read the Couplets and Triplets of Dhsg I think that
>Ven. Nyanaponka's Abhidhamma studies could be helpful, he explains some of
>this material.
>Best wishes, Nina.

I happen to have "Abhidhamma Studies" so we'll be able to make use of it.
However, I don't think I'll start posting any material from Dhs and
commentaries until early November seeing that you'll soon be going away for
a month. I will also be away for a 10 day period starting this Thursday and
would like to take a break from replying to list email for a while. I have
been studying the AN I.50 com. and will try to send a reply to your
translation soon.

Best wishes,
Jim


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433
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2001 1:14pm
Subject: jhaayati

 
    Dear Jim, thank you for the references. I could find the mahaaniddesa text,
and it appeared that my interpretation in the positive sense was wrong,
taking it as reflecting on naama and ruupa. Brooding over is more correct,
brooding over, here, methuna dhamma. The co. is interesting, and we find
again here the same passage on puthujana.
Wishing you a nice break from the Email while you go away, Nina.
 
434
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:09pm
Subject: Tiika

 
    Dear Jim, Here I am again. I am here with the tiika, because I do not want
to shrink back from all the difficulties. Especially the last sentences I
have here. If I do not try now I will never able to read tiika. Amara told
me you have torrents of Email everyday. I understand it if you have no time.
Meanwhile I missed your teaching, so thorough in the grammar and in all
respects. Here it is:

@.tiikaa

49. navame pabhassaranti pariyodaata.m sabhaavaparisuddha.t.thena.

N: With reference to the ninth, luminous , meaning very pure because of
its pure nature.

tenaaha -- pa.n.dara.m parisuddhanti. pabhassarataadayo naama
va.n.nadhaatuya.m labbhanakavisesaati aaha -- ki.m pana cittassa va.n.no
naama atthiiti? 
N: Therefore he said , clear, luminous. Since it has indeed taken on a
luminous nature, he spoke of the element of colour, as a distinction that
was acquired (?). But how is there indeed a colour of citta?

itaro aruupataaya natthiiti pa.tikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa
aya.m taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento
niilaadiinantiaadimaaha. tathaa hi so eva.m samaahite citte parisuddhe
pariyodaateti vutta.m.

N: While someone else has refuted this saying that there is no colour for
that which is immmaterial, but since diverse dictions explain that there is
indeed of such citta (pana ayam ti?) a pure nature and so on, he said,
blue etc. and so on. There, however, it was stated that he spoke thus with
reference to the consciousness that is composed, clean and very pure.

tenevaaha -- idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassaranti.
N: Therefore he said,  this also is because of the absence of defilements
very pure, it is luminous.

ki.m pana bhava"ngacitta.m nirupakkilesanti? aama sabhaavato
nirupakkilesa.m, aagantukaupakkilesavasena pana siyaa upakkili.t.tha.m.

N: But why is the life-continuum without defilements? Yes, it is by nature
without defilements, but because of the oncoming defilements it is
corrupted. 

tenaaha -- ta~nca khotiaadi. tattha attano tesa~nca bhikkhuuna.m
paccakkhabhaavato pubbe idanti vatvaa idaani paccaamasanavasena tanti aaha.
ca-saddo atthuupanayane. kho-saddo vacanaala"nkaare, avadhaara.ne vaa.

N.: Therefore he said,  and that (lifecontinuum) indeed etc. There, after
having said this before because it was clear to himself and to those monks,
now the text said (this?) because it touched on this before (?). The word
ca makes the meaning clearer (brings near) and the word kho is for
beautifying and for emphasis.

vakkhamaanassa atthassa nicchitabhaavato bhava"ngacittena
sahaava.t.thaanaabhaavato upakkilesaana.m aagantukataati aaha --
asahajaatehiitiaadi.
N: Because of consideration of the meaning he will express, he said with
reference to the life-continuum that is (as it were) connected (with the
defilements) that it is corrupted by the uncoming defilements; meaning, the
defilements are not conascent, etc.

raagaadayo upecca cittasantaana.m kilissanti
vibaadhenti upataapenti caati aaha -- upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihiiti.

N: Desire etc. which have approached the sequence of cittas corrupt it, they
oppress and torment it, he said, and this is the meaning of: the
defilements and desire, etc..

bhava"ngacittassa nippariyaayato upakkilesehi upakkili.t.thataa naama natthi
asa.msa.t.thabhaavato, ekasantatipariyaapannataaya pana siyaa
upakkili.t.thataapariyaayoti aaha -- upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati vuccatiiti.

N: Since the life-continuum is not specifically mentioned, it is indeed not
corrupted by defilements since it is by nature not mixed up with those, he
said, by including it in figurative language in one sequence (of
consciousness) that it was as it were corrupted, corrupted indeed, it was
said. 

idaani tamattha.m upamaaya vibhaavetu.m ``yathaa hii''tiaadimaaha. tena
bhinnasantaanagataayapi naama iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati, pageva
ekasantaanagataaya iriyaayaati ima.m visesa.m dasseti. tenaaha --
javanakkha.ne...pe... upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotiiti.

N: Now in order to explain that meaning by a simile, he said, just as,
etc. Therefore the conduct that is blamable by the world appears to be in a
different sequence, and what is more, he explains this (life-continuum) as
distinct from the conduct that is in one sequence (?) . Therefore he says:
at the moment of impulsion etc. it is indeed corrupted.

*******

435
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:45pm
Subject: Re: Tiika

 
    Amara told
> me you have torrents of Email everyday. I understand it if you have 
no time.
> Meanwhile I missed your teaching, so thorough in the grammar and in 
all
> respects. 

*******
Dear Nina and Jim,

Nina, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that Jim might be too busy 
for you, I certainly never intended to do so, although it is true that 
he did tell me once that he had emails waiting in line to be answered. 
Besides, although I can't say that I understand everything that is 
being discussed by you I have always thought it was extremely 
interesting and beneficial, and look forward to reading anything by 
both of you, thank you for all that you have done and will do!

Looking forward to your wonderful work, as always,

Amara
*******

Here it is:
> 
> @.tiikaa
> 
> 49. navame pabhassaranti pariyodaata.m sabhaavaparisuddha.t.thena.
> 
> N: With reference to the ninth, luminous , meaning very pure 
because of
> its pure nature.
> 
> tenaaha -- pa.n.dara.m parisuddhanti. pabhassarataadayo naama
> va.n.nadhaatuya.m labbhanakavisesaati aaha -- ki.m pana cittassa 
va.n.no
> naama atthiiti? 
> N: Therefore he said , clear, luminous. Since it has indeed taken on 
a
> luminous nature, he spoke of the element of colour, as a distinction 
that
> was acquired (?). But how is there indeed a colour of citta?
> 
> itaro aruupataaya natthiiti pa.tikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa
> aya.m taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento
> niilaadiinantiaadimaaha. tathaa hi so eva.m samaahite citte 
parisuddhe
> pariyodaateti vutta.m.
> 
> N: While someone else has refuted this saying that there is no 
colour for
> that which is immmaterial, but since diverse dictions explain that 
there is
> indeed of such citta (pana ayam ti?) a pure nature and so on, he 
said,
> blue etc. and so on. There, however, it was stated that he spoke 
thus with
> reference to the consciousness that is composed, clean and very 
pure.
> 
> tenevaaha -- idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassaranti.
> N: Therefore he said,  this also is because of the absence of 
defilements
> very pure, it is luminous.
> 
> ki.m pana bhava"ngacitta.m nirupakkilesanti? aama sabhaavato
> nirupakkilesa.m, aagantukaupakkilesavasena pana siyaa 
upakkili.t.tha.m.
> 
> N: But why is the life-continuum without defilements? Yes, it is by 
nature
> without defilements, but because of the oncoming defilements it is
> corrupted. 
> 
> tenaaha -- ta~nca khotiaadi. tattha attano tesa~nca bhikkhuuna.m
> paccakkhabhaavato pubbe idanti vatvaa idaani paccaamasanavasena 
tanti aaha.
> ca-saddo atthuupanayane. kho-saddo vacanaala"nkaare, avadhaara.ne 
vaa.
> 
> N.: Therefore he said,  and that (lifecontinuum) indeed etc. 
There, after
> having said this before because it was clear to himself and to those 
monks,
> now the text said (this?) because it touched on this before (?). The 
word
> ca makes the meaning clearer (brings near) and the word kho is 
for
> beautifying and for emphasis.
> 
> vakkhamaanassa atthassa nicchitabhaavato bhava"ngacittena
> sahaava.t.thaanaabhaavato upakkilesaana.m aagantukataati aaha --
> asahajaatehiitiaadi.
> N: Because of consideration of the meaning he will express, he said 
with
> reference to the life-continuum that is (as it were) connected (with 
the
> defilements) that it is corrupted by the uncoming defilements; 
meaning, the
> defilements are not conascent, etc.
> 
> raagaadayo upecca cittasantaana.m kilissanti
> vibaadhenti upataapenti caati aaha -- upakkilesehiiti 
raagaadiihiiti.
> 
> N: Desire etc. which have approached the sequence of cittas corrupt 
it, they
> oppress and torment it, he said, and this is the meaning of: the
> defilements and desire, etc..
> 
> bhava"ngacittassa nippariyaayato upakkilesehi upakkili.t.thataa 
naama natthi
> asa.msa.t.thabhaavato, ekasantatipariyaapannataaya pana siyaa
> upakkili.t.thataapariyaayoti aaha -- upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati 
vuccatiiti.
> 
> N: Since the life-continuum is not specifically mentioned, it is 
indeed not
> corrupted by defilements since it is by nature not mixed up with 
those, he
> said, by including it in figurative language in one sequence (of
> consciousness) that it was as it were corrupted, corrupted indeed, 
it was
> said. 
> 
> idaani tamattha.m upamaaya vibhaavetu.m ``yathaa hii''tiaadimaaha. 
tena
> bhinnasantaanagataayapi naama iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati, 
pageva
> ekasantaanagataaya iriyaayaati ima.m visesa.m dasseti. tenaaha --
> javanakkha.ne...pe... upakkili.t.tha.m naama hotiiti.
> 
> N: Now in order to explain that meaning by a simile, he said, just 
as,
> etc. Therefore the conduct that is blamable by the world appears to 
be in a
> different sequence, and what is more, he explains this 
(life-continuum) as
> distinct from the conduct that is in one sequence (?) . Therefore he 
says:
> at the moment of impulsion etc. it is indeed corrupted.
> 
> *******
 
436
From: <srnsk@aol.com> 
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:40am
Subject: cankama

 
    Hi Jim,

I have a quick question regarding the meaning of a term Cankama. I talked 
with Kom over the weekend, as usual he quizzed me by what does it really mean 
when in Thai we say, "walking cankama". Does it mean just regular walking, a 
form of walking with smadhi or regular walking with sati ??

I check in my Thai, Pali-Thai dict. They said cankama means walking back and 
forth or in circular manner. I looked up R.Davids dict., it said :walking up 
and down and also a place where one is walking esp. a terraced walk, 
cloister. In my Pali-Thai dict. Also mentioned cankura which means an oxen 
cart.

I checked on Thai pitaka online, cankama was mentioned ay numerous places, to 
me sound like it does not really means regular walking. In Sutta mentioned 
Ven. Sona who did cankama until his cankama place stained with blood from his 
bleeding feet. In anguttara nikaya also mentioned 5 benefits of cankama 
1.able to stand walking long distance. 2.able to stand development of viriya. 
3. less sick 4.facilitate food digestion and 5.able to prolong smadhi.

Alright, I better stopped here. My orthopedic doctor put my hand on a soft 
cast. I tore my ligament from playing tennis. It's not easy to type or do a 
lot of things while my fingers tied.

Regards,

Num
 
437
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:46pm
Subject: Re: cankama

 
    Dear Num,

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question. I searched the CSCD
disk with the ca"nkam* string hoping to find a reference to a good
commentarial explanation but couldn't find anything definitive. You'd also
have to be more specific as to whether you're interested in the word as
understood in earlier times in the texts or later on in modern times. To
find out the meaning in the early texts you might have to go and look up a
large number of the references in the Tipitaka and its commentaries and
gather together anything you could find. I looked up a few references and
found some interesting bits here and there but not nearly enough to form a
clear picture. You'd also want to find out about the cankamas the Buddha did
like the 'jewelled walk' after his enlightenment and his daily habit of
doing cankama in the first part of the last watch of the night. I saw some
passages relating cankama to the samaapatti-s. A cankama can be done in
space or on the earth. I also found an interesting passage about a cankama
being well-hidden from public view (like the cloistered walk of Christian
monks) and when it was permissible to do cankama otherwise.

Best wishes,
Jim

>Hi Jim,
>
>I have a quick question regarding the meaning of a term Cankama. I talked
>with Kom over the weekend, as usual he quizzed me by what does it really
mean
>when in Thai we say, "walking cankama". Does it mean just regular walking,
a
>form of walking with smadhi or regular walking with sati ??
>
>I check in my Thai, Pali-Thai dict. They said cankama means walking back
and
>forth or in circular manner. I looked up R.Davids dict., it said :walking
up
>and down and also a place where one is walking esp. a terraced walk,
>cloister. In my Pali-Thai dict. Also mentioned cankura which means an oxen
>cart.
>
>I checked on Thai pitaka online, cankama was mentioned ay numerous places,
to
>me sound like it does not really means regular walking. In Sutta mentioned
>Ven. Sona who did cankama until his cankama place stained with blood from
his
>bleeding feet. In anguttara nikaya also mentioned 5 benefits of cankama
>1.able to stand walking long distance. 2.able to stand development of
viriya.
>3. less sick 4.facilitate food digestion and 5.able to prolong smadhi.
>
>Alright, I better stopped here. My orthopedic doctor put my hand on a soft
>cast. I tore my ligament from playing tennis. It's not easy to type or do a
>lot of things while my fingers tied.
>
>Regards,
>
>Num


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438
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca> 
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 11:45am
Subject: Re: Tiika

 
    Dear Nina,

You wrote:
Dear Jim, Here I am again. I am here with the tiika, because I do not want
to shrink back from all the difficulties. Especially the last sentences I
have here. If I do not try now I will never able to read tiika. Amara told
me you have torrents of Email everyday. I understand it if you have no time.
Meanwhile I missed your teaching, so thorough in the grammar and in all
respects. Here it is:

[. . .]

====================
Jim:
Thank-you for posting your translation of the tika for AN I.49 and welcome
back from your India trip. It may be awhile yet before I have something to
post on your latest translation. There are some earlier ones of yours that I
have yet to go over as well but I think I can work on this one beforehand.
Commentaries can be rather difficult to understand and it's so easy to get
stuck on phrases like 'sabhaavaparisuddha-', 'labbhanakavisesaa',
'bhinnasantaanagataaya', and so on. Before I can check your translation I
have to understand the Pali text first and this can involve many hours of
study and even after that there are still problems to solve. I can only do
so much.

Since early October I have not been spending as much time on Pali as I felt
a need to take a break from it and to spend more time with other activities
and interests that are easier on the eyes. I have recently made contact with
a Chinese acupuncturist in Toronto who might be able to treat my poor
eyesight and hearing and this might mean my going and staying in Toronto for
a period of time in the near future in which case I would be away from my
Pali library and possibly an online connection as well. I will also be
leaving in mid-December for Orillia for two weeks. I'm afraid that my
involvement with Pali online will likely be much reduced for an indefinite
period. I will still try to post the odd contribution every now and again if
possible. And psg members are quite free to use this forum for discussing
Pali among themselves while I'm away.

Best wishes,
Jim


_________________________________________________________ 
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439
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@euronet.nl> 
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2001 1:20pm
Subject: Re: continuing the study

 
    op 21-11-2001 17:45 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca:

> Thank-you for posting your translation of the tika for AN I.49 and welcome
> back from your India trip. It may be awhile yet before I have something to
> post on your latest translation. There are some earlier ones of yours that I
> have yet to go over as well but I think I can work on this one beforehand.
> Commentaries can be rather difficult to understand and it's so easy to get
> stuck on phrases like 'sabhaavaparisuddha-', 'labbhanakavisesaa',
> 'bhinnasantaanagataaya', and so on.
> 
I have recently made contact with
> a Chinese acupuncturist in Toronto who might be able to treat my poor
> eyesight and hearing and this might mean my going and staying in Toronto for
> a period of time in the near future. And psg members are quite free to use
this forum for discussing
> Pali among themselves while I'm away.

Dear Jim, It is most important that you try the acupuncturist and I do hope
it will help you. Please let us know from time to time how you are getting
on with this matter, we shall be thinking of you. If we do not hear anything
we will be worried. I learnt such a lot from you, I will never forget this.
I shall not neglect my Pali study and keep on reading, especially
commentaries, since there are so few English translations.
I also checked different points you suggested and points we came upon in our
Pali translations, (such as dhammanudhamma) with a Thai Pali teacher, A.
Suphee. I was in the same bus with him. Suan very kindly offered to help
with these points as well. I shall air them on the Abhidhamma forum. Now I
am so busy starting with India impressions. It is very nice if you can look
in from time to time. I value your teaching so much that I do not mind to
wait even for a year or so for some corrections of yours, depending on the
situation. I keep it all on computer anyway. I appreciated so much your
references to Saddatissa and other sources. Didn't we have a lot of fun with
the suffixes, and Tadao with his to sufix.
Again, I really hope to hear from you now and then, and my very best wishes,
Nina.
 
440
From: Amara <joychay@hotmail.com> 
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2001 11:47am
Subject: 

 
    Dear friends,

I would like to take advantage of Jim's permission to use his list for 
Pali matters to ask for your comments on this message posted in DL and 
at the end there is my thoughts on it:


Date:  Fri Nov 23, 2001  9:55 am
Subject:  Re: No Existential Residues In Parinibbaana

--- In dhamma-list@y..., abhidhammika@y... wrote:
> 
> Dear Dhamma Friends
> 
> The following is an updated reply to a recent request of Robert 
> Kirkpatrick regarding an untranslated Paali passage he found in Pali 
> Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary. Although this list is a 
> general list, I hope that some of the list members wouldn't mind 
> reading an occasional academic message like the following. It is a 
> translation of a Paali Atthakathaa passage on the topic 
> of 'Parinibbaana'. As PTS dictionary hasn't translated it yet, you 
> may well be reading the first translation of the Paali passage in 
> question.
> 
> Best Wishes!
> 
> Suan
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Dear Robert Kirkpatrick
> 
> How are you?
> 
> The follwoing quote from Section 89, Dhammapada Atthakathaa clearly 
> tells us that there is no consciousness component in Parinibbaana 
> after the death of an Arahant. 
> 
> I tried my best to provide as lateral a translation as possible - 
> syntatically in particular - while making sure that the readers can 
> read as natural English as possible. If you found any unclear points 
> in the translation, please let me know. My present translation has 
> been influenced by Nibbaanadhaatu Sutta Atthakathaa in Itivutta 
> Atthakathaa.
> 
> "Parinibbutaa naama arahattapattito patthaaya kilesavattassa 
> khepitattaa sa-upaadisesena, carimacittanirodhena khandhavattassa 

> khepitattaa anupaadisesena caati dviihi parinibbaanehi 
> parinibbutaa, anupaadaano viya padiipo apannattikabhaavaam gataati 
> attho."
> 
> "`Parinibbutaa' is the ultimate cool by means of two-way complete 
> extinguishments, one with the existential residues emptied of 
> defilement machinery ever since attainment of Arahatta awakening, 
and 
> the other without the existential residues emptied of psychophysical 
> machinery by termination of the last mind (the dying consciousness). 
> It has the meaning of reaching the state of the undefined reality 
> like the lamp without fuel." 
> 
> Parinibbaana - complete extinguishment
> Kilesavatta - defilement machinery (vatta is literally circle, 
cycle, 
> or round. We have 'Vicious Circle' in English.)
> Khandhavatta - psychophysical machinery
> Apannattikabhaavo - the state of undefined reality
> 
> Upaadiseso - existential residues (upaadi is merely another name of 
> pancakkhadhaa). Upaadi means phenomena taken strongly by craving or 
> attachment (tanhaa).
> 
> As such, we can know for sure that Anupaadisesa Nibbaana is emptied 
> of the five khandhaas. Therefore, after the death of an Arahant, the 
> scenario of nibbaana having the consciousness component 
> (viaanakkhandho) is out of the question. There is no textual 
> support for such a scenario. 
> 
> 
> With regards,
> 
> Suan Lu Zaw
> 
> http://www.bodhiology.org


Dear Suan,

Thank you for sharing this very interesting document, personally 
anything to do with the Tipitaka/Commentaries unfailingly has my 
attention. Of course there are Thai translations of most of them but 
my Pali as well as my memory is very poor, so the English rendering 
interests me as possible reference material as well. 

First of all your conclusions concerning the gist the passage is in 
accordance with my own studies, that after parinibbana there is 
nothing left of the six senses which are the only ones we know. There 
can be no eyes, ears, nose tongue body sense or mind then, I 
absolutely agree. 

I realize you must have done much work on this English version, and I 
really appreciate the effort, and especially the detailed explanation, 
but I hope you won't mind some comment and questions on the 
translation itself, as I am interested in Pali as well:

Since as you say, '(vatta is literally circle, cycle, or round. We 
have 'Vicious Circle' in English.)' how did you derive the word 
'machinery' from it? Is there support of any kind in the Commentaries 
for this connotation?

Thanks again for sharing this text and translation, and anumodana,

Amara
 
[end of Year 2001] 