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                    {Taken From:} APOLOGIA I

                     All Rights Reserved @ 1988/1993
[The Messianic Jewish & Gentile Believing community only, is hereby
given permission to re-print and distribute this file as is on a non-
profit basis only, or to quote from it if need be in secondary tracts
/responses as long as the sources are identified.]

The following are replies from the Observant Messianic Jewish community
to the Observant Rabbinic Jewish community.   They are given to defend
our stance, beliefs, and faith.   Material for the articles are taken
from public messages on Computer Bulletin Board systems*. This should
not necessarily be considered the "final word" on these subjects and,
(in certain cases), are only very brief over-views of these matters.
         This file is only meant to introduce these subjects.

     *The difference is that in this version: the last names of all
     parties who post(ed), with some affiliation, on MJCN distributed
     computer-nets, have been shortened to the first letter of their
     last name(s) only. Other than this, both files are pretty much
     the same; and the "objections sections", from these public posts,
     still follow the criteria below....

*[Certain minor errors, (spelling, etc...), additions and omissions
occur in the "REPLY" quotations in these articles, that have been so
modified for this file. Otherwise the text, (quoted exactly and in
full in the "OBJECTION" comments sections that appear in this file),
appears as it did on the BBS(s) in the public forum(s); though the
overall formating has been modified into a form more suitable for this
file. Zohar quotations are often taken from the Amsterdam version.]

                               ARTICLE I

                          {OBJECTION source}:
>Message #9072 "Judaica" Date: 25-Dec-89 07:56
Subj: Christmas For Jews????

                            {REPLY source}:
REPLY: Hanukkah for Believers!
From Midrash BBS; Denver, Colo. @ 12/31/89.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>None of the prophets of Israel ever taught in his own name and
AS>on his own responsibility.

                               {REPLY}:
Exactly what one would expect of Messiah, who would not teach in the
name of a man who taught, but would as Wisdom, existent at the Creation
of the world, speak as the Memra/Word of the Father.   What is one of
the earliest mentions of Messiah? In Midrash Rabbah on Beresheet: and
the Spirit of G-d brooded over the face of the waters; and who do our
sages say this was? None other than the Spirit of King Messiah! The
Memra/Word that walked in the cool of the evening with Adam and
Chavah.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>The "I" of the prophets is G-d; the "I" of Jesus however, is he
AS>himself. He taught on his own authority,

                               {REPLY}:
As the record in the Brit Chadashah/New Covenant, states, Yeshua says
that He did not speak on His own authority, but spoke as the Father
gave Him the Words. As the 'man' Yeshua Messiah, He was relating the
existence of His Spirit being the Memra/Word of El*him, and that He,
[Yeshua], spoke as the Father gave Him.   Again, the sages tell us...
"The Torah which a man learns in this world is but vanity compared with
the Torah of Messiah" -Midrash Qohelet on Eccl.11:8.   If Yeshua was
truly the Messiah, then He would have access to the L-rd's Mishnah-
Torah.   Who was the Angel of the Covenant?, the Angel Who swears by
Himself in Tanach: a Theophany, a Tzimtzim, a Metatron, HaMemra?!...
The angel Metatron, according to Jewish theology, was he who discoursed
with Moses, and the angel in whom G-d placed His Name.   The following
from the Zohar is of interest...
     There is a man, if a man He is, Who is an Angel. This Angel is
Metatron, the Keeper of Israel; He is a man in the image of the Holy
One, blessed be He, Who is an Emanation from Him [from G-d]; yea, He
[the Metatron] is Jehovah...
     Behold, I will send my messenger, and He shall clear out
     the way before me: and suddenly will come to His Temple
     the L-rd Whom ye seek; and the Messenger of the Covenant
     Whom ye desire, for behold He is coming saith the L-RD
     of hosts. -Malachi 3:1 Lesser's
          The L-rd is the King Messiah; He is also the Angel
     of the Covenant. -Kimchi
          The L-rd is both the Divine Majesty, and the Angel
     of the Covenant, for the sentence is doubled. -Aben
     Ezra
          The L-rd may be explained of the King Messiah.
     -Mashmiah Jeshua, fol.76.

          And the Word/Memra, became flesh and dwelt among us!

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>frequently in opposition to the teachings of the Rabbis of the time.

                               {REPLY}:
In opposition to the teaching of the P'rushim & Tz'dukim of the first
Century perhaps?! That generation that the Talmud too speaks against?,
- stating that the Herodian kingship was wicked: (Baba Bathra 3a); the
High priests and their sons, and in general the leaders of the
priesthood, were corrupt: (Pes. 57a, Yoma 35b, Pes.u.s., Tos.Set.xiv;
Siphre on Deut./105,end. ed.Friedmann,p.95b; Jer.Peah i.6); and many of
the P'rushim injurious and hypocritical, and even considered being
among - "the destroyers of the world": (Sota 20 & 22b/{*EnYa'akov I pg.
223-224} - [Jer.Ber.ix.7, *Sot.iii.4], Jer.Chag.); indeed, very many of
that generation were noted for being sinful: (Yoma 9b & 10, T.Shabbat33
/{EnYa'akov I pg. 133}, & later in T.Shabbat/{EnYa'akov I pg.194-196}-
starting with the words: "Abaye said: Jerusalem would not have been
destroyed, but for the sin...").    So not only Yeshua, but the Talmud
itself is frequently in opposition to some of these "Sages", and even
that entire generation in general!
     *{EnYa'akov Agada of the Babylonian Talmud, R.Jacob IBN Chabib; R.
     Glick}.
     *"...Such an expression as 'the plague of Pharisaism' is not
     uncommon; and      a silly pietist, a clever sinner, and a female
     Pharisee, are ranked among 'the troubles of life'"-[Sot.iii.4]/The
     Life And Times Of Jesus The Messiah - by Alfred Edersheim - i/Book
     III, page 312 [hard-cover / ref.vers.] ISBN 0-8028-8027-4. [NOTE:
     Alfred Edersheim {1825-1889}. In 1848 young Edersheim was a friend
     of Adolph Cremieux, who desired to take him to Paris under his
     patronage, - though his {AE} parents would not allow it. After he
     became a Believer in Yeshua as Messiah, he continued on to gain
     various degrees and titles, and served as a Grinfield Lecturer in
     the University of Oxford till 1889, the year of his death. While
     he treats this entire subject above, (as well as most of the other
     subjects in this writing), in much greater depth, and though he
     himself was Jewish, - because of his position and the time and
     place he lived, he tends to sometimes express his view from more
     of a Hebrew-Christian, or even Gentile-Christian, stance at times,
     (rather than   from a   more Messianic/Natzratim perspective).
     Nevertheless, he is an excellent scholar and this is an very good
     source to explore these topics in depth and with comparisons to
     the various Rabbinic writings.]

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>According to Jewish tradition a prophet must not add or diminish
AS>from the Torah's commandments. Jesus, however, did precisely that.

                               {REPLY}:
No, He did not add or diminish but He instructed that wicked generation
to return to the purity of the written Torah; which again, even the
Talmud states some of that generation's sages had cast aside. While
Yeshua states...
'And at that time Yeshua said unto His Talmidim: "Do not think that
I came to abolish, annul, remove or cancel the Torah of Moshe or the
Words of the Prophets-(the)-Nevi'im. - I came not to diminish nor
annul the Torah of Moshe, but to complete It, - to complete Truth by
the Words of Truth.|In all these Words not to add a Word to the Words
of the Torah, nor to subtract any.| For in truth I say unto you, -
That until the heavens and the earth depart (&) pass away, - not one
yud or dot shall in any way be abolished (or) pass away from the
Torah or the Nevi'im-Prophets, because all will be wrought complete.
And whoever therefore shall transgress, break, annul (or) cancel, one
Word of these small (or) least Mitzvot-Commandments, and shall teach
men so, - he shall be called the little (yea,) least (&) a vain
person by-(&)-in the Kingdom of the Heavens. But whoever shall do,
uphold, and teach (them), - the same shall be called great by-(&)-in
the Kingdom of the Heavens."' Mattityahu 5:17-19 / Sepher haB'sorah
haTovah version.
     The words of one who is against Torah? NO, the words of One Who
     is in love with the Written Torah; and is also upset with
     certain dishonorable 1st Cent. P'rushim, who have made the
     Written Torah of no effect in their lives.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>culminated in his claim to possess a special nearness to G-d unlike
AS>any other person....No Jewish prophet, not even Moses, ever claimed
AS>to be nearer to G-d than any other man...

                               {REPLY}:
But once again, a claim that the Messiah can make, for even the sages
tell us concerning Messiah...
The King Messiah shall be exalted above Abraham, be high ABOVE MOSES.
[Neve Shalom]
     The Most Holy is the Messiah, for He is more holy than the sons
     of David. -R. Nachman
          Our Rabbis expound this in a Midrash of the King Messiah
     saying, He shall be higher than Abraham, exalted above Moses,
     and loftier than the ministering angels. -R. Sa'adyah Ibn Danan
     [Midrash Tanchuma]

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>is no particular Son of G-d who is nearer to the Father in heaven

                               {REPLY}:
(I took the liberty of adding a CAPITAL to Father in your quote above).
[*Midrash Echa (1:51)]: ...What is the Name of King Messiah?   To this
answered Rabbi Abba bar Kahana: HaShem is His Name, for it is written:
'This is the Name whereby He shall be called: HaShem Zidkenu'... *(See
in this file: Article VII, quote 12.)
                    Only ONE can make such a claim!

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>Jesus however, took upon himself the power to forgive sins; a power
AS>Judaism reserves for G-d. Thus, Jesus declared when healing a
AS>paralytic, "I would have you know that the son of man has the
AS>authority to forgive sins on earth." No Jewish prophet would say
AS>this.

                               {REPLY}:
    Exactly what the Tanach and Sages declare concerning Mashiach!...
R.ELIJAH DE VIDAS: The meaning of He was wounded for our transgressions
bruised for our iniquities is, that since Messiah bears our iniquities,
which produce the effect of His being bruised,it follows that whoso
will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must
endure and suffer for them himself. [on Is. 53]
     While the shofar is being blown in the Synagogue on Rosh HaShannah
           the following remarkably significant prayer is offered:
   Merciful and gracious G-d, I have sinned against Thee, and done that
   which is evil in Thy sight.   Have mercy on me and forgive all my
   transgressions, trespasses and sins, through >Yehoshua< the Prince
   of His Presence./Prayer Book For The New Year [1913]
   -Rev. Dr. A. Th. Phillips, page 100.
[In most prayer books of the present day this prior prayer is omitted]
     While He bore the sins of many and for the transgressors He
     let (evil) befall Him. -Isaiah 53:12.b Lesser's.
          And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon
          them, as it is written, "By His stripes we were healed, and
          He carried the sins of many; and made intercession for the
          transgressors." - B'reshith Rabbah (& see): Yalkut II. on
          Is. 52:13 (Par. 338, p.53 c. &-{p.66c} lines 7 &c. from the
          bottom): He shall be higher than Avraham, to whom applies Gen
          14:22; higher than Moshe, of whom Num.11:12 is predicated;
          higher than the ministering angels, of whom Ezek. 1:18 is
          said.   But to Him there applies this in Zech.4:7: Who art
          thou,   O   great mountain? And He was wounded for our
          transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities, and the
          chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes
          we are healed.   R. Huna's comments in the name of R. Acha:
          All sufferings are divided into three parts; one part goes to
          David and the Patriarchs, another to the generation of the
          rebellion (rebellious Israel), and the third to the King
          Messiah, as it is written (Ps. 2:7), Yet have I set My King
          upon My holy hill of Zion. Also see Midrash on Samuel (ed.
          Lemberg, p. 45 a, last line): where it is said that all
          sufferings are divided into three parts, one of which Messiah
          bore - a remark which is brought into connection with Ruth
          2:14). And Messiah the King, who was chastened and suffered
          for the transgressors, as it is said: He was wounded for our
          transgressions, and so on - how much more shall He justify
          all generations, and this is what is meant when it is
          written: And HaShem made to meet upon Him the sins of us all.
          Pugio Fidei (p.675).   He (Messiah) shall intercede for many
          sins, and the rebellious for His sake shall be forgiven.
          Targum Jonathan @ Is.53:12. Midrash R. Ruth 5 (ed. Warsh.
          p. 43 a & b): Come hither, that is, draw near to the Kingdom,
          and eat of the bread, that is, the bread of royality, and dip
          thy morsel in vinegar - these are the sufferings, as it is
          written in Is.53:5: He was wounded for our transgressions.
             These are only a brief sampling of such type of quotes.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>He told his disciples to go out into the fields on Shabbos and pick
AS>the wheat; against Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
No, as Yeshua and His talmidim passed through the standing grain on
Shabbat, His talmidim being hungry began to eat.   He did not 'command'
them to do such. Furthermore, I believe that Rabbinic Judaism makes
allowance for eating produce of a field, while walking on the Shabbat,
to satisfy ones hunger, - if one isn't harvesting to carry it away.
Regardless; Yeshua is appealing to the principle that danger to life
superseded   the   Shabbat law, (Yoma 84b), and   indeed all other
obligations, (See: Maimonides, Hilkh. Shabb. ii. 1 - Yad haCh. Vol. i
part iii. p. 141 a: 'The Shabbat is set aside on account of danger to
life, as all other ordinances.' & note: Jer. Shabb. xiv.4 pp. 14d, 15a;
Jer. Shabb. xvi.1;) For a full and detailed treatment of this New
Covenant passage, I'd direct one to read: The Life And Times Of Jesus
The Messiah, by Alfred Edersheim, Book III page 51 on; and in: Jewish
New Testament Commentary, by David H. Stern [ad loc].

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>When he mentioned the Ten Commandments he left out four of them;
AS>against Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
A person may discuss various applications of the decalogue without
repeating the entire decalogue, we all do it on here all the time.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>He said you didn't have to wash your hands before you eat; against
AS>Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
No, actually Yeshua didn't say this, the passage reads as follows, and
involves His talmidim, [a group of fishermen from the Galil, an area
not known for keeping too strict of halachah], not washing before they
ate. The passage reads as follows...
Then the sages and the P'rushim came to Yeshua and said to Him: Why
do your disciples transgress the ordinances of antiquity in that they
do not/n'tilat-yadayim/wash their hands before eating. Yeshua said to
them: Why do you transgress the words of G-d for your ordinances...[He
then speaks of their practice of Korban, and how their halachah in this
matter has made the Written Torah of no effect in their practice, then
He continues addressing the crowd, concluding with, that it is the evil
that comes forth from a man's heart and out his mouth that truly
defiles a man, rather than the eating with unwashed hands.] Does
Yeshua ever say that they are not to eat with unwashed hands? No. The
record doesn't even say that He did. What He does do is tell them that
the matters of the heart are the most important before HaShem, much
as He told them to clean first the INSIDE OF THE CUP, in order that the
outside may be clean also, [as then with a righteous heart, the outside
mitsvot will be from a pure heart before HaShem]   Or when He told them
to keep the weighter matters of Torah, kindness truth and faithfullness
and then to not leave the lesser matters undone! Or when He said they
were strict in the matter of a nit-kosher nat, but swallowed the
nit-kosher camel! Such an understanding is also shown of this by Rabbi
Yochanan b. Zakki account to his pupils in Midrash Bamidbar Rabbah 19:8
on Numbers 19:2 ..."The Holy One, blessed be He, merely says: 'I have
laid down my statue, I have issued a decree. You are not allowed to
transgress My decree;' as it is written, 'This is the statue of the
Law.'"   At this point the Rabbi tells his pupils ..."By your life, it
is not the dead that defiles, nor the water that purifies."

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>He said divorce is not legal; against Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
Nope, He said that divorce is legal, He questioned the motives of the
heart that would seek a divorce. As the Talmud again states, according
to the house of Hillel, that even for a burnt meal a person could
divorce their wife. But what does Yeshua say concerning it...
Again Yeshua said to His Talmidim: You have heard it said to those
long ago that everyone who leaves his wife and divorces her is to give
her a bill of divorce/get. And I say to you that everyone who leaves
his wife is to give her a bill of divorce/get. But I tell you that
anyone who divorces his wife, except on the grounds of fornication
makes her an adulteress; and that anyone who marries a woman who is
divorced commits adultery. Mattityahu 5:31-32 /Mishn.ver./JNT & NKJV.
Does He say it is not legal?, - NO. He even states elsewhere that Moshe
permitted it, but adds, - for the hardness of your heart. For during
the 1st century, they would divorce at the drop of a hat. Read Malachi
to see just how much the L-rd hates divorce.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>He ridiculed the laws of Kashrus; against Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
Nope!   He told them they had their Kashrus backwards, they were eating
camels while they were busy looking hard at nats! [see above].

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>He ignored the fasts of the community; against Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
He didn't keep the P'rushim fasts twice weekly, that is all. Nor did
He fast as the talmidim of Yochanan the Immerser [John the Baptist].
This was not a requirement on the entire peoples, it was a personal
halachah of the P'rushim or who ever would do this, but there is NO
statement anywhere that Yeshua did not observe the National fasts of
the House of Israel.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>He laughed at the people who prayed with a minyan in the Synagogue
AS>and told them to pray at home; against Jewish law.

                               {REPLY}:
Nope.   He spoke out against the P'rushim who would make a display of
their praying for the praise of men. Yeshua praised the prayer of
one in the Synagogue in a minyan who prayed thus, [while not looking
at heaven, but beat his breast]: "G-d be merciful to me a sinner."
Again, this man was in the synagogue praying at the same time as a
Parush who's prayer was that he thanked G-d that He had not made
him like the rest of mankind, or like this other man, [the one beating
his breast and praying of a sincere heart, "G-d be merciful to me a
sinner]. No; - it was the attitude of the heart in prayer that was the
main issue.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>But Jesus on the other hand showed no interest in helping non-Jews,
AS>as incredible as this sounds

                               {REPLY}:
I don't know where you got your commentary on the Brit Chadashah but it
is sure funny how they only record parts of facts, (to paint a picture
of Yeshua that is not complete I suppose.)

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>When a Canaanite woman pleaded to him, "Take pity on me, sir. My
AS>daughter is dreadfully possessed by a demon", Jesus offered her no
AS>comfort and told his disciples, "Send her away ... I am sent only to
AS>the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

                               {REPLY}:
First...a little bit of background: Using the term "dogs" was right in
line with 1st cent. Ce/AD expressions toward the goyim*. And especially
during the first century, it was not the practice of the P'rushim to
talk to the goyim if it could be avoided, nor a woman, and especially a
goyish woman! Now, I'm not going to look it up as I'm getting tired,
but in Talmud there is the story of [if I recall correctly], a Rabbi
from the Galil that approached another Rabbi's wife to ask directions.
He was rebuked by her, as not only should he have not been talking to a
woman, but he asked the question with too many words. Thus the
expression that Yeshua said to the woman was right in line with first
century Rabbinic thought when He said ...it is not fit to take the
bread of the Children and to cast it unto *dogs. (But I still haven't
gotten to the point). [For a moment recall also, Eliyahu was in Israel
during the time that there was severe famine, but was sent to none but
one widow woman in Tzarfat in the land of Tzidon. Would you expect that
Messiah when He came would go to the goyim first?, - Or to the House of
Israel?! (but I still haven't gotten to the point)].
     {*"...And, certainly, no expression more common in the mouth of
     the Jews, than that which designated the heathens as dogs.: Midr.
     on Ps.iv.8; Meg.7b. Note:2-(Many passages might be quoted either
     similar, or based on this view of Gentiles." -[Life & Times of
     Jesus the Messiah BookIII Chapter XXXIII page 41.]   For more
     context see: Ab.Z. 22b; Ab.Z.ii.1; Mechilta, ed.Weiss, p.33 b,line
     8 from top; Ab.Zar.35b; (for starters).}
So... what's the point?!   The point is that Yeshua DID HELP HER! THAT
HE DID HEAL HER DAUGHTER!   The context states that He said what He did
to test her faith, [I'm reminded where Avraham's faith was also tested
in regards to his son Yitzchak.]   And not only did He help her, He
helped several goyim in the Brit Chadashah/New Covenant records!
     Though Yeshua used a Rabbinic phrase common in this era, His
actions were of love and concern. Yeshua helped her, you and I, (I
would hope), would have helped her. But the P'rushim of the 1st century
would hardly have lifted a finger!

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>Jesus in fact was opposed to and attacked all and everything that
AS>the Rabbis of his time stood for.

                               {REPLY}:
Oh, you mean as the Talmud itself opposes and attacks what those of the
first century Ce/AD before the destruction of the Temple stood for too!

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>Besides, how can anyone, Jew or Gentile, expect Jews to embrace a
AS>man whose teachings and disciplines caused our people 2000 years of
AS>hatred, abuse, and death?

                               {REPLY}:
Moshe is regarded as a holy man by the Arabs. Should we throw out
Torah this being the case?! - NO! Yeshua's teaching are of love,
concern, and of forgiveness. Look what the Arabs have done with Torah,
& look what some of the Goyim have done with the teachings of Rabbi
Yeshua! But then LOOK AGAIN at what the teachings of Yeshua Himself
are.

                             {OBJECTION}:
AS>If Jesus's teachings about Christian love are so precious,
AS>let Christians start loving us not by converting us but by
AS>apologizing for all that has been and still remains.

                               {REPLY}:
Of course you realize that Messianic Jews don't believe that you have
to convert to become a M'shacheeym. But remember: there were 10's of
1,000's of Messianic Believers in Europe during WWII & one of our
headquarters was in Germany before hitler took over. Where are they
now? ...dead. At the hands of some who said they were "Christian" but
were not.   We have been ridiculed by both Jew and Gentile for almost
2,000 years too, not just by the Gentiles.   We as a group, have been
persecuted by the Church at large since the 4th century as well. And
why?   Because we on one hand believe that Yeshua is the Messiah of
Israel, on the other, because we keep Torah and the traditions.

Has all this made anyone a Believer? Possibly not, however, I hope
that at least a little bit of the misunderstanding might drop away as
a mist.

                           {In closing (objection)}:
AS>This, then, is the challenge that confronts the Jews and Christians
AS>today: to build bridges from hatred to respect; from bigotry to
AS>admiration. It will not be easily accomplished or done in a short
AS>period of time.

                             {In closing (reply)}:
To this I can say Amaine.