ForgivenessandJudgement

To Home Page:

Forgiveness & Judgement

To Prior Page:

The following is from Email discussions on the subject of forgiveness and Judgement. My comments are in red.

RF>Here are questions put forth by a 8 year old girl -- what yall think?

We know that God hates evil and we know that we who love God are instructed
to hate evil. Most would say hate the sin and not the sinner. But God does hate a false
witness and he hates a person that sows dicord among the brethren. Ss should
we hate a false witness? Or should we hate someone who sows dicord? A Can we
love someone and hate them at the same time? And since Satan is our enemy
and an enemy of God, should we love him, since Jesus said we should love our
enemies? Should we then Hate Satan? Does God hate Satan?<RF

I agree. Sloppy agape aside...

Didn't Yeshua tell us that whosoever sins you remit they are remitted unto
them, and whosoever sins you RETAIN they are RETAINED. We are told to
forgive a brother who sins against us even if they ASK us to forgive them 70
times 7 - BUT that is qualified with: if they ASK. If we were to forgive
everyone, every time, REGARDLESS of REPENTANCE - then why does Yochanan/John
say: 1Jn.5:16b "...There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall
pray for it." We should be led of the Ruach/Spirit of Elohim in all things.

If we are not to call evil good nor good evil as that is wickedness before
YHVH Elohim/God - then is forgiving someone who is not repentant being as if
one entering into their sin - or providing a 'covering' for an act of
evil?! - [not that we could cover un-repented of sin - but perhaps as in:
condoning or excusing and so committing ourselves a sin of "co-mission"]
Sha'ul/Paul says that we are to shun a non-repentant brother so that they
come under conviction and repent. But are we to forgive them if they don't
repent?! There is a difference between holding hatred in your heart toward
someone, (verses righteous-indignation, and as in: be angry but sin not),
and thinking that you have to "forgive" in order to get rid of this hate
that you feel, [or even this righteous-indignation which you actually should
have] towards someone who is sinning against you, or against mankind; but
isn't that just some kind of catholic notion - like an arbitrary 'pardon',
but not rooted in Scripture? I can ask that hatred be removed in me [for
the person not the sin] so that I can pray for my enemy that they repent turn
from evil and come to Salvation, as in the arab nations as a whole, but do I
"forgive" an unrepentant person [as in a suicide/homicide bomber]?! - No,
rather I'd ask for judgment as he is on his way to commit his evil act, and
not "I forgive you". - There is something that makes me feel ill about the
notion of saying "I forgive you" when someone is in the very act of
committing abomination!

Yeshua on the cross said: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they
do." And with what reason did He ask forgiveness? - FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT
THEY DO. When Messiah calls non-Believers to repentance and to be Saved -
does He forgive them before they repent and ask for forgiveness and ask to
be saved, or when they ask forgiveness!

(Also Forgiving someone who personally wrongs you, is also not quite the
same as forgiving someone who wrongs mankind - or the Kingdom of Elohim/God, but
that's a longer discussion.)

We are given the ministry of reconciliation [remit/retain] - and as a
ministry, it needs to be operated in through Ruach HaKodesh - The Holy
Spirit - of Elohim YHVH, and not in the flesh by formula I'd think. And
maybe in the Ruach/Spirit is the only way it can be fully understood.

Shalom;

SC>I understand a little of what you are saying about forgivness Bill. I
still have some questions about your position, such as, "what about those
that hold resentment in their hearts and never forgive someone that has hurt
them?" That bitterness is definitely not good. Is it possible to forgive
someone and still ask for justice? That seems to be the question in my
mind.<SC

Perhaps part of the problem is what we as Believers understand forgiveness
to be after hearing so much in our touchy-feely culture that has turned away
from righteousness that is fluff, and from the catholic-church with their
absolutions and pardons - that we need to get our definations from Scripture
direct, and some of our dogmatic understandings from what we've been taught
may be incorrect. The world [to one degree or another] has seemed to turn
the concept of forgiveness to a blanket-statement type act - whereas in
Scripture I believe that it is a Spiritual matter. So... perhaps we can
establish some ground rools based in Scripture, then be led of Ruach
HaKodesh in this, as in everything we should be....

1.) Bitterness, resentment and revenge are from the flesh; and in order to
pray for our enemies as Yeshua Messiah said, we have to pray that these
emotions of the flesh are removed from our lifes. [Be angry and sin not -
do not let the sun go down on your wrath.] We should pray God removes these
feelings from our lifes whether the sinner has asked forgiveness from us or
God or not - as they hinder our walk, and inhibit our circumspection to be
able to pray about the matter in the Spirit.

2.) If it is unrepentant sin, then we should pray that they'd repent and for
them turning from evil to God to be forgiven and gain Salvation. But
unrepentant sin would still allow righteous-indignation to be in us against
abomination, and so it should be. So... it would be possible to have
extreme righteous indignation but yet compassion for the sinner at the same
time so that one could pray for their Salvation. [Perhaps as in WWII, where
a soldier could have compassion on the Germans going to hell, while being
the means of sending them there at the same time :-) - I'm kind of joking,
but there is a point here; but set this aside for a moment, as the
illustration falls apart since there were Believers on the German side, and
many were just soldiers in the battlefield following orders and not the
leaders who were plotting the evil against mankind.]

3.) Wickedness is in stages too I think, Sha'ul/Paul says: 1Cor.16:22 "If
any man love not the Lord Yeshua Messiah, let him be Anathema Maranatha." -
(anathema - accursed). But the context seems to be here one that is
anti-Messiah/Christ, or an enemy or the Good-News - perhaps knowingly and
not ignorantly; for in 1Timothy 1:13 Sha'ul/Paul says... "Who was before a
blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I
did it ignorantly in unbelief." So, then one does so in knowledge and has a
pronouncement of a curse, and one does so in ignorance and obtains mercy.
Lk.12:47-48b "And that servant, which knew his lord�s will, and prepared not
himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many
stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be
beaten with few stripes." Then there is the ministry of reconciliation after
Yeshua breathed on the Disciples and gave them Ruach HaKodesh - The Holy
Spirit... John 20:23 "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto
them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." - And along with
this Scripture also says (more fully in the Greek in CAPS)... Matthew 18:18
"Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be
HAVING-BEEN-BOUND in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be
HAVING-BEEN-LOOSED in heaven." So... remitting/retaining of sins is
Spiritual in this sense here, and is given from Heaven in this Ministry from
God. So... it is then obvious that a "blanket anytime type absolution" as
the catholic-church arbitrarily hands out, even with it's "indulgences" to
those who'd go to confession - but yet be a practicing hit-man by
occupation - but they confessed?!, but did not turn and repent - is a
mockery of the Ministry of Reconsilliation.

So... I think then we see "forgiveness" used in at least two senses here -
1) I forgive you for what you did to me, 2) I remit your sins. Both things
are sometimes called "forgiveness". Perhaps then...

4.) One could then "forgive" what was done by an unrepentant sinner to
oneself, (in the sense on loosing the wrong from a Beit-Din type
judgement) - so that you can pray for them to repent - while NOT forgiving
them the actual unrepented of sin - which would then be a "remitting" of
their unrepented sin - (and could we really remit their sin if that wasn't
given to us from Above anyway - and if they haven't repented before YHVH in
Yeshua Messiah?!) And all the while retain righteous-indignation that crys
our for Judgement of one who won't turn from abomination, while we have been
set free from the carnal desires of bitterness, resentment, and revenge
against the sinner as we pray for his repentance and Salvation.

5.) Then there is grave sin against mankind and the Kingdom of God that
we're told not to ask forgiveness for... 1 John 5:16 "If any man see his
brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give
him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do
not say that he shall pray for it."

6.) Bottom line: We are to forgive all who sin against us and repent and ask
our forgiveness - no matter how bad and how much pain they've caused us.
And remission/retaining of sins is a Ministry that must be walked in with the
Ruach/Spirit - as in any Ministry from YHVH Elohim/God. One could forgive
what has been done to them by one that hasn't repented, but still the sin that
hasn't been repented of remains retained by those who continue in their sin and
refuse to repent and ask forgiveness for what they've done to you and God. So
in regards to unrepentant sin, and any remission/retaining of sin - we must be
led of God in the Holy Spirit, and not the flesh. Spiritual things are Spiritually
discerned.

Shalom;

SC> Also, I have another question that's been on my mind recently that you can
pass on to whomever...and that is the story of Achan. Now the story goes
(as many already know) that Achan hides some valuables from the ruins of
Jericho after Yahweh specifically commanded His people to destroy
everything. Well Yahweh's anger burns and He tells Joshua about the
situation. Eventually Achan is found out and what does he say? "Truly, I
have sinned against Yahweh, the God of Israel, and this is what I did..."
and he goes on to confess his sin. So what happened to him? He was stoned,
along with his children and possessions. Now here is my question. How is
Yahweh being consistant when His Word says in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our
sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins," and yet Achan
confessed. Was he forgiven? Well, Yahweh's anger didn't "leave Him" like
it did in other circumstances in the Torah and He didn't "change His mind"
about Achan's punishment like He has so many other times before. Why not?
I can only think of a few possibilities:

1.) Achan confessed but was not repentant (although the text doesn't imply
one way or the other).
2.) Yahweh did forgive him of eternal punishment, but not of the physical.
3.) The people disobeyed Yahweh and still stoned Achan after his confession
(but again the text seems to imply they were in full obedience.

Number two seems most logical to me...but this whole thing has really made
me think. I understand punishment for sin was much different in those
times, because when Yeshua was talking to the woman caught in adulty He made
it clear that He did not want her to be stoned for her sin (much later than
the time of Achan). I guess my real question is what changed? Was it
really Yahweh's will for people to be stoned in those days and not today?
We have the same God but something major has changed. Did Achan really
deserve to be stoned along with his family in light of everything written
from the gospel of Matthew on? And if we have the same God, then He has
been the same through all the writings. Or has He? Anything would be
appreciated (even more questions...haha). <SC

I'm not sure that I nor anyone else fully has an answer to this second question this side of Heaven, but here is what I believe and know based upon Scripture....

First off, I think that these things have become more difficult to understand with the mind, except in the Spirit, because in our current culture, we've [I say 'we' but refer to world, yet recognize that the world has influenced much of the Body of Messiah to one degree or another] become de-sensitized to sin. It is now only with the grossest of violent sins that we can logically see a sense of equity in there being a severe and immediate Judgment and punishment for, as our Torah-less culture around us has now come to promote what is abomination before YHVH's eyes, [abortion, adultery, homosexuality, etc...] - whereas it was only a 100 years ago and less, that almost all such things as are defined as gross sin in Scripture, and especially Capital-sins as defined in Torah, were illegal in this country - people were hung for things in this country just over 100 years ago that are now being promoted as being not just in the norm - but the evil are insisting that all men bow down to these abominations and they had better dare not to rise against them!

That having been said....

I believe that degrees in severity and swiftness of Judgment are related to ones physical closeness to the very Presence of YHVH Elohim. Lk.12:47-48 "And that servant, which knew his lord�s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Heb.2:2-3b "For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;..."

Even if a man had an issue and was then unclean, it was an inconvenience, but not a sin. But if he then didn't follow the Torah Mitzvout concerning this issue, and instead willfully went in this unclean state into the Tabernacle of Elohim before the very Shekinah of YHVH - this was a gross sin, and he had emboldened his heart to sin against YHVH Elohim.

So then picture yourself in the very Presence of HaShem: He is in a Cloud by day and a Pillar Of Fire by night, He speaks and the House of Israel cannot bear to hear His Voice, He dwells in the camp, and His Presence is over the Tabernacle, He feeds the House of Israel daily with manna from Heaven, and gives them drink of water from the Rock, He instantly Judged those who brought strange smoke and those that bowed down to baal - and you and everyone else around you knows it. - Then Moses tells you, on direct Command from Elohim YHVH: to destroy everything; but instead - one person decides to not destroy everything and hides it from YHVH Elohim. Put in this context, is this a light matter?! Standing in the Presence of HaShem and His strength, this man I believe would not have just done this in his 'weakness', but would have had to willfully embolden his weakness against the Present Strength of HaShem in the camp. So the matter would be not just a violation of Torah of stealing and lying, but stealing and lying to HaShem. There is a New Covenant equivalent, to a degree: Ananias and Sapphira kept back a portion of money from the land that they sold which was their own, but then lied about how much it was to the Emissaries/Apostles - then Kefa/Peter said that they had lied to Ruach HaKodesh Elohim and they both died instantly! [Gosh, what would the current US legal system do with that one! :-), not to mention the liberals in the churches - bet they'd say that can't be the hand of God because it doesn't fit in with their dogma that Grace is freedom from the Law.]

But when Israel had wondered far off from Him what does He say: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." YHVH Elohim showed Mercy and Judgment in the days of Tanakh & YHVH Elohim showed/shows Mercy and Judgment in the days of Brit HaChadashah. [Perhaps, though it sounds strange, one reason maybe we don't see more immediate Judgment of sin is that we're living in a generation far from YHVH Elohim - but then when Judgment does come because there is no repentance, It's severity is increased].

Yet again, in the Millennium Kingdom, when the Presence of HaShem covers the earth when Messiah reigns from Yerushalayim with a rod of iron and His sanctified-ones with Him, what does Scripture say of Judgment during this time under the New Covenant... Zechariah 13:3 "And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the YHVH: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth." YHVH Elohim is Holy, and sin will not abide in the Presence of Elohim YHVH.

2). To conclude briefly on the woman taken in adultery in the Book of Yochanan/John: There is much speculation on several things in this account, both by Gentile Christians and Messianic scholars. But here is a synopsis based on what I believe.... Yeshua didn't tell them NOT to stone her, but just he who is without sin to cast the first stone. Some say that Yeshua said this because He was the only one without sin, while it's true He was, I believe there is more to it than that. Torah states that when two are caught in the act of adultery they are BOTH to be brought forward and stoned. - So first off they weren't following Torah by just bringing the woman. Now some say that Yeshua's writing on the ground was of various things: their sins, the names of women they'd been with, etc., etc.... - But the bottom line is we don't know - He may have just been scribbling on the ground. But I believe that it's possible maybe He was writing the name of the man that they had led go - as maybe they'd even hired him to go in to this harlot so they could catch her, and/or maybe Yeshua was writing the Torah Command stating to bring both the man and the woman who were sinning when caught, - which would have convicted them of their own sin - who knows? - HaShem knows! But regardless: they were doing so to tempt Him, and doing it contrary to the Command of Torah. Also, Roman rule had limited the power of the Sanhedrin to carry out the death penalty for capital Torah violations if I recall correctly - so maybe it was also like when Yeshua replied to their other temptation: "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" - they having done this so they could accuse Yeshua before the Romans. Regardless though, that brings up a final point....

Israel was a Theocracy headed by Elohim YHVH Himself. Violations of the Torah were dealt with while they were a Theocracy with the measures outlined in Torah. The rabbi's, both after Israel fell to the Romans and still today, say that those offences that during the times of Tanakh were dealt with by death are now dealt with by the person being separated from the House of Israel and treated as though they were dead. Actually, the New Covenant shows the same thing when it talks about shunning and excommunication of those from the Body of Messiah who commit those same capital violations of the Torah Commands. And while because of touchy-feely attitudes nowadays there are only a couple of things some people feel merit the death penalty under our current generation's lack of morals: Judgment delayed is not Judgment escaped.

We are to be a pure and spotless bride waiting daily for the coming back of Yeshua Messiah to take us to Himself forever. We must remove the dung from the camp.

Shalom;

SW>Many excellent points here.

I believe one reason (not the only, of course) why Satan is without hope, but man could be saved, is because Satan was a covering cherub, one who dwelt continually in the presence of God. So he basically knew all there is to know about God, from the perspective of a created being.

What then, is the degree of responsibility, if he falls? It is total.

What can be told to Him that he might repent? Nothing. He already knows everything that God has chosen to reveal of Himself. He was a covering before the very glory of God.

The problem is that knowledge alone doesn�t save. Instead, knowledge puffs up. So knowing too much, without the power to live righteously in response to that knowledge, can actually result in condemnation.

So God graciously created man in a state of ignorance. In fact, Adam didn�t even know good and evil, in the beginning. And though he walked with God in the garden, apparently little was revealed to Adam in these walks. We (mankind) live in a state of spiritual ignorance, blissfully unaware of the spiritual world around us.

This means God can show tremendous, almost unimaginable mercy to humanity, based on our ignorance. The trick is to get us saved before we learn so much that we become wise in our own eyes, and immune to the gospel.

We start with faith (which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen), and we are to add to our faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge. (2 Peter 1:5). It is much more difficult to go the opposite direction, adding to knowledge virtue and to virtue faith� <SW

BB>My response was that if Satan were to Repent of his anti-God activities,
and stop striving to gain all the power and the glory from God, there
would in deed be forgiveness. However, that isn't in Satan's nature, so
the situation will never occur.<BB

BT>There's [yet] another aspect to this.

Speaking of us, or men in general, we fully deserved hell. Sometimes I
think we get the idea that we didn't REALLY deserve to go, that it would
be a shame for such nice people to go to hell, so it was really right of
God to rescue them. It was the decent thing to do.

But that's not accurate. The truth is, we filly deserved it, and if God
made no way of escape, He would be fully justified. (It almost seems an
affront to use the term "justify" regarding HaElyon, as if there were one
higher than He who could justify Him, or to whom He has to answer!) It
was only because of His great love and mercy that He made the way of
escape, that He gave us so great salvation, and lavished His love upon us
in His Son! But there was no moral imperative for that. He did not have
to do it, and if He had not done it, it would be right.

Even our ability to repent comes from the Holy Spirit, so we really can
claim nothing. He is just so good! But if He does not draw satan by the
Holy Spirit to repent (not that he would repent), is He not just in not
doing so?<BT