Nitcentral's Bulletin Brash Reflections

Nitcentral's Bulletin Brash Reflections: ClassicTrek: The Movies: Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

By Rene on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 08:11 pm:

Is it just me or are there alot of missing posts?

By ScottN on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 04:55 pm:

It's just you, Rene. The rest of the posts can be found here

By Yotsuyasan on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 10:36 pm:

I was watching this film recently and noticed something odd... When Kirk states, "I did nothing!" you can see the weapons console behind him, and it is a bit blurry, but I'd swear that the shield display has the graphic for the Reliant on it rather then the Enterprise. Now, both ships used the same bridge set (just slightly re-aranged for the Reliant) so it seems that when filming this scene, they had forgotten to change the weapons console back to how it should be for the Enterprise.

By John A. Lang on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 04:39 pm:

TV LISTING NIT....

In the Chicago Sun Times (9/4/01) it lists that STII will be on TV tonight...and it says the following..."A renegade Vulcan hijacks the Enterprise"...uh...whoever edited this TV listing got messed up...he/she was thinking STV

By Derf on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 10:28 pm:

A "more precise" review would have read ... "A renegade Vulcan SAVES the Enterprise" ...

By Derf on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 10:37 pm:

A possible "un-noticed" nit (although I doubt it) ...

The fight between Kirk and Khan inside the Motara Nebula is appraoching, and Kirk orders full battle alert. When the scene of the photon torpedo being loaded into the tube is shown, one or more of the grates that are lifted from the floor have the number "5" stenciled on them ... yet the torpedo crane that lowers the torpedo into the tube is stenciled with a "4" ...

Also ... when Spock pinches McCoy in Engineering, he grimaces, then sinks to the floor. When Spock is delivering his lines of, "I'm sorry doctor, I have no time to discuss this logically" ... McCoy's eyes flicker open, and he actually looks towards Spock's approaching hand when he is about to mind-meld with him.

By ScottN on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 01:36 am:

Yotsuyasan: The Reliant display is up because they had just turned off the Reliant's shields, and there was no need to display Enterprise status, since it was down indefinitely.

Possible Nit: Why is McCoy in Engineering when Khan attacks in the Mutara Nebula? When Scotty falls, it's McCoy who catches him. It explains his presence later when Spock shows up, but why is he there to begin with?

By Adam Bomb on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 09:32 am:

The ornaments on the bulkhead in Kirk's quarters were the baseboards in the observation lounge in "TMP."
The checklist that was being read during Kirk's first visit to the bridge is the same list that was read when Kirk went to Engineering to confront Decker in "TMP."
Would this pic get a "PG-13" rating today? It got a bit bloody in spots, particularly when the Ceti eel exits Chekov's ear.
I loved the element of surprise here. First in the opening Kobayashi Maru test, and later on Regula One, when McCoy is startled by the mouse, and we are immediately startled when he encounters the hanging body. Good job, Nick Meyer.

By Derf on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 11:01 am:

Yet, ... we are left to believe that the crew of Space-Lab Regula One NEEDED rats that can roam the structure ... a quick review of the film shows them to be of the "grey-body ... long tail" type ... NOT the "WHITE" type soooo admired by scientists.

By Adam Bomb on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 07:12 am:

Vermin, on an allegedly ultra-sanitary (by necessity) space lab? Maybe Dr. Marcus' vaunted Starfleet Corps of Engineers forgot to call in the exterminators for the lab when they dug into that "giant rock in space."

By Mark Swinton on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 12:43 pm:

... or maybe Khan left the rat there after slaughtering the crew ...

By Derf on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 11:08 pm:

Or ... perhaps, ... it is a ... "pet" ... wandering the lab after Khan made with the mayhem ... ?

By Adam Bomb on Friday, September 07, 2001 - 04:30 pm:

Khan would have left much nastier "pets", perhaps hoping one just may get Kirk.

By Mike Ram on Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 08:08 pm:

When Saavik talks with Kirk in the turbolift, look at the middle of the doors, where they come together. It looks like there is a dent in the left side.

By Adam Bomb on Saturday, September 08, 2001 - 11:03 pm:

I noticed that in its first run, wondering just what a dent was doing there.
Kirk really underestimates himself here. He says, just after Reliant dropped her shields (on HIS orders) "I did NOTHING. Got caught with my britches down." In a scene dropped from theaters but restored for its 1985 ABC telecast, Kirk says to McCoy, just after Peter Preston's death, something to the effect that "The only reason we're alive is that I knew something about these ships that he didn't."

By Adam Bomb on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 11:26 am:

Question: Was the starship Reliant named after a relatively popular car of the early '80's, a Plymouth Reliant K? I had one of those K cars for years.

By Lolar Windrunner on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 02:01 pm:

Lets hope not otherwise the repair bills on the reliant would have been amazing! BTW I had A Dodge Aries of the same era for about a month before it got turned into a small sculpture by a big truck.

By Sven of Nine on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 02:46 pm:

Nah, it was named after the Reliant Robin!

By Eagle Eye on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 05:33 pm:

I still drive a Reliant.

By Desmond on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 09:38 pm:

I never understood why anyone would name a spaceship (or a car, for that matter) "Reliant." "Reliable," perhaps. But "reliant" (as in, "at age 35, I am still reliant upon my mother to feed and house me") implies dependence or a lack of self-sufficiency; hardly a virtue worthy of a Fderation ship.

By Trike on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 12:26 am:

ScottN asked Wednesday why McCoy was in Engineering. It's because radiation was affecting Scotty (and presumably others), and McCoy made a house call to treat them. Notice the change in Scotty's health from when he delivers the line about the radiation to when he's yelling at Spock.

(An aside, my mother had a '85 Reliant for several years, and I don't remember her having many problems with it).

By Aaron Dotter on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 09:13 pm:

Do all Starfleet Captains have their phasers set to vaporize, or just Terrell? (I suppose that had to do with that Ceti eel in his head.)

By Benn on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 09:52 pm:

Khan probably anticipated Kirk's arrival, as well as the fact that Kirk would find Terrell and Chekov. Khan probably also hoped that Admiral Kirk would them to the Genesis Device, so Khan take it. Then either Terrell or Chekov would be ordered to kill Admiral Kirk. So I would guess that Khan had the Reliant's officers set their phasers for the strongest possible setting - which apparently is vaporize.

By ScottN on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 12:38 am:

Is the Genesis wave affected by gravity? The simulation seemed to indicate that it would pass over a planet, taking about 30 seconds to do so. This would indicate that the wavefront travels at about 50,000 mph or 80,000 km/h (assuming an Earth sized planet).

So why won't impulse at any reasonable fraction of the speed of light (reasonable being defined as at least 1% of c) get them out of the range of the wave?

Also, in the simulations, it appeared that the wave was confined to the planetary surface. In the actual explosion, however, the wave expanded spherically, at a subtantial fraction of the speed of light (so that warp was needed to escape it). Wouldn't the wave expand spherically from an explosion point on a moon or a planet?

By LUIGI NOVI on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 01:36 pm:

Such simulations often employ time-lapse photography/animation, and that's what I assumed here, that it was a sped-up depiction of the process.

By ScottN on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 01:50 pm:

Luigi, if it's a sped up animation, that makes my point even more relevant. My comment was that if it takes 30 seconds to cover a planet, even low impulse would be able to escape it. If the animation was sped up, then that means the Genesis wave would be even slower!

Side note, I just happen to be listening to the STII soundtrack as I post this!

By LUIGI NOVI on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 02:23 pm:

I'm sorry, Scott, I missed that portion of your post about "get them out of the range of the wave". What were you referring to?

By Mikey on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 02:40 pm:

First of all, the key word is simulation. As such, it is possible that the Genesis Wave itself has been slowed down while the effects of the wave are sped up.

I can't come up with an an actual example offhand. But think of a simulation depicting the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs that also depicts the climatological changes the planet went through as a result. In this scenario, I can conceiveably see them depicting a slo-mo asteroid impact and devastation followed by a "time-lapse" of the long-lasting (and slower-moving) effects.

Another possibility is that they simply didn't know what the effects would actually look like (thus, a simulation).

And there are any number of other things that could affect the Genesis Effect. You mention gravity. It could also be mas or matter (which was more widely dispersed in the nebula).

Finally, the Enterprise was really close to Reliant. If I remember correctly, we're not sure how close to full impulse they were. We only know that Sulu used the ship's "best possible speed" at the moment, which obviously wasn't much because three minutes after they started fleeing they were only 4000 kilometers away.

By ScottN on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 04:28 pm:

However, using the speed of the simulation (which I agree, might have been slowed down), we can calculate the speed of the Genesis wave as it passes over the (assumed to be) Earth-size planet.

It takes roughly 30 seconds. Therefore, on a planetary surface, it propagates at about 50,000mph, or 80,000 km/h. Now, given that even 1% of lightspeed is 10,800,000 km/h, my nit was "why do they need warp speed to escape the wave"?

However, as Mikey says, the simulation could have slowed down the effect... but why? BILC isn't an answer, we're talking about Marcus and the Federation Science Bureau and Starfleet Command.

By Mikey on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 06:09 pm:

Because It Looks Cool *is* a valid answer.

Marcus was trying to convince the Federation to fund its project. The simulation was a marketing tool designed to "dumb down" the project, making it simple to understand. I doubt that every scientist in the Science Bureau is a terraforming specialist. If everyone understood what the Genesis device accomplished, why have a simulation at all?

It's also possible (and, admittedly, this is just speculation) Marcus approached other organizations as well with the simulation, so it wasn't just designed for the Federation Science Bureau.

But even if you disregard all this and take the simulation at face value, the fact that after three minutes the Enterprise was only 4000 kilometers from Reliant suggests that they were traveling at considerably less than the 1% of lightspeed figure you present. At the speed Enterprise was shown to be escaping in the movie, it would not have taken very long for the Genesis Effect to hit the ship.

By Derf on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 06:50 pm:

I'm having a problem with ScottN using the "actual-time-sequence-of-the-planet-fly-over" from the "proposal" that Dr. Carol Marcus used to sell the Genesis Device to Starfleet ...
The "Project Genesis Summary" tape viewed by Kirk, Spock and McCoy is titled a "Project Demonstration to Starfleet" by Dr. Carol Marcus, and as such, it implies that she knows NOTHING of the Genesis wave's impact beyond what she can extrapolate from the data she and her fellow scientists can reliably gather. I understand that the "simulation" might imply "actual circumstances" ... but Dr. Carol specifically stated that the reformed moon was "simulated" ... I can't see how the simulation be used as a referent to decide how fast the genesis-wave propogates ...
HOWEVER ...
Later in the movie, when she took Kirk into the "Genesis Cave", Kirk asked her, "You did all THIS in a day?" She replied, "The matrix formed in a day ... the lifeforms grew later at a substantially accelerated rate."
Based on her later statements ... the "Project Demonstration to Starfleet" MUST have been a time-lapsed demonstration! If the matrix takes a DAY to form ... how can it completely reform a dead moon in 30 seconds?! (unless she was extrapolating to a point in the future when the wave is thouroughly tested). In any case, even when after "maybe" disproving ScottN's original argument, his initial question still stands ...

Why won't impulse at any reasonable fraction of the speed of light get them out of the range of the wave?

By Mikey on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 08:26 pm:

Well, that ignores the fact that the Genesis planet *did*, in fact, form very quickly. Minutes or even less than that (judging by the amount of time it took for Kirk to congratulate Scotty) pass from detonation and the basic structure of the planet is already formed.

And, again, the simulation may have accelerated some aspects of the Genesis process while slowing down others at the same time.

Regardless:

"Mister Sulu. Get us out of here. Best possible speed."
"Aye, sir."

Three minutes or so later:

"Distance from Reliant?"
"Four tousand kilometers."

If they travelled less than four thousand kilometers in over three minutes, then they obviously weren't going at impulse. Right?

By Derf on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 10:04 pm:

Perhaps so ... those arguments are also valid.

SO ... DOES the "Genesis Wave" NEED a DAY (24 hours) to form? ... DO the "lifeforms" NEED a "much accelerated rate" after that matrix formation? ... OR, DOES the very act of forming the "matrix" neccessarily "require" the volume of space in-a-very-short-space-of-time that Kirk & crew HAD to vacate ... and IF SO ... was DAVID the ONLY one who KNEW this? ... and if so ... WHY??

By ScottN on Monday, November 12, 2001 - 11:17 pm:

Mikey,

4000 km in 3 minutes = 4000km/3min * 60min/hr = 80000km/h.

That's definitely sublight, and therefore impulse. It also happens to answer my question.

That's the value I came up with for the wave propagation speed. Apparently the impulse engines weren't working very well. Maybe they couldn't accelerate fast enough... I don't know.

Nit: Sometimes it seems like going to warp in a non-empty area (such as a nebula) is a no-no, sometimes not (cf. STIV -- going to warp in the atmosphere).

By Newton on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 10:23 am:

But wait ScottN!

If the wave propogated at exactly 80000km/h and the Enterprise was going at 80000km/h then they still didn't need to worry, because, as long as they maintained their speed, the wave would always remain the same distance behind them.

If the wave were slightly faster, they probably wouldn't have to worry either, but that would depend on how much faster it actually was

By Mikey on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 12:07 pm:

Well, when the countdown started Enterprise was already some distance from Reliant, so they have to have been going slower than even that speed.

The speed is irrelevant anyway because you're assuming that the planet in the simulation was Earth-size when it could have been smaller. And you're assuming that the simulation was an accurate representation of the speed of the Genesis Effect.

ScottN: If you define any velocity slower than the speed of light as "impulse," then you are correct in that Enterprise was travelling at impulse. Then what I meant to convey (which I think you've gotten now) is that Enterprise was not travelling at full impulse (or even a reasonable fraction of it).

As to why... Who knows? Perhaps taking the mains offline interferes with the function of the impulse as well as the warp engines.

As for your nit regarding using the warp engines in an atmosphere... Has that ever been established in a canon source? I know that some of the novels touch on this (one, I think, dealt with the repercussions of Enterprise inadvertently destroying an alien ciovilization by using its warp engines too close to the planet. But I can't think of an onscreen instance where it has been suggested this can't be done (though I now have a vague recollection of some mention in TMP).

By Derf on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 12:14 pm:

Okay ... we're saying that the dialogue between Kirk and Carol Marcus meant spit, and that the actual recorded (movie time-lapse) evidence is the truth ... that the "Genesis-Wave" propogates at a much faster rate than ANY of the "Genesis-Wave" scientists thought it would. Yet, David knew it would propogate quickly by telling Kirk that his ship was unable to escape the wave without warp power. So ... Carol Marcus had a good idea, but was surpassed/misled/usurped by her son when it came to predicting the wave's properties due to the use of PROTO-MATTER (due to evidence in ST3) which David must have hid from his Mom in the formation of the "Genesis-matrix"?

By ScottN on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 12:47 pm:

OK, I give! But we still have the question of how gravity/mass affects the wave. The Genesis people obviously believed it would be confined to the planetary body in question. How does this square with the spherical explosion seen at the end?

By John A. Lang on Tuesday, November 13, 2001 - 05:43 pm:

You gotta remember too that the Genesis Device explosion consumed the ENTIRE Mutara Nebula...as long as the Enterprise was within the nebula, it was in danger!!!

By Adam Bomb on Saturday, January 12, 2002 - 11:18 am:

Check out the late Merritt Buttrick in a first season episode of "Hill Street Blues," as a suspect brought in by Belker (Bruce Weitz) who witnesses him growling at a dog.

By ken c. on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 10:23 am:

About the genesis planet-- I can see how possibly the genesis planet can be formed from matter from the nebula, but where did the sun come from?? Was is always there or can the genesis wave also create stars? I suppose 'protomatter' is the 'x' factor here, is it so unstable that its capable of anything?

By Robbie d on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 08:48 am:

Why does Kirk say that the Klingons don't take prisoners? In the next movie we hear it from the Klingon's mouth- "I wanted Prisoners!"

By Derf on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 11:52 am:

The "prisoners" Kruge wanted were anyone & everyone who KNEW something about the Genesis Device ... end of story.

(otherwise ... "Kill one of the prisoners, I don't care which". [although, Kruge actually killed the ONE who knew the most about the Genesis Device!])

By Derf on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 11:43 pm:

The scene when Kirk & co. transport into the Regula Underground contains a strange nit ...
Here is the scene:

Saavik: (motioning to a storage cabinet in the corner) Admiral ...
(Kirk and McCoy go to cabinet and look inside)
McCoy: Genesis ... I presume. (they hear a noise and draw weapons ... then David jumps Kirk)
Jedda: (with a weapon trained on Kirk) Phasers down!
David: (to Kirk) You! ... (they fight until Kirk overpowers him with an arm twist)
Kirk: Where�s Dr. Marcus?!
David: I�m Dr. Marcus!! ...
Carol: Jim!! ... (Kirk realizes who David is and releases him)
Kirk: (to Carol) Is that David?
David: Mother, he killed everybody we left behind!
Carol: Oh, of course he didn�t. David, you�re just making this harder.
Terrell: (drawing phaser) I�m afraid its even harder than you think, Doctor. Please, don�t move.
Kirk: (Chekov draws phaser) Chekov ...?!
Chekov: I�m � sorry, Admiral.

The NIT is ...
WHY wouldn't Jedda (with a weapon trained on the intruders) NOT fire upon Terrell and Chekov IMMEDIATELY while they drew their phasers?

By ScottN on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 10:32 am:

Fine. Kirk is allergic to Retinax. What about surgical intervention?

Also, Kirk's glasses break in the battle. Even today, hardly any pairs of glasses actually use glass. Most use either plastic or some form of polycarbonate.

By Mikey on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 12:11 pm:

Except they were antique glasses (of course, we didn't know this until ST4), which may have kept its original glass lenses to maintain its value..

By Lolar Windrunner on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 02:57 pm:

No Mccoy would have had to make them to fit Kirk's Prescription. Trust me after having worn glasses most of my life it would be rather difficult to get someone else's glasses to work for you.

By Adam Bomb on Friday, March 01, 2002 - 05:48 pm:

Try that with the bifocals I have to wear, due to presbyopia.
I have never seen a pair of glasses shatter the way Kirk's do in this pic. I HAVE seen car windshields shatter like that, particularly my old Ford, after someone threw a bottle of Yago Sangria at it while it was parked.
I think there was a scene (cut from theatres, but restored for its ABC run) in which McCoy stated something to the effect that it is Kirk's prescription in the glasses.

By Adam Bomb on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 01:29 am:

No, I was wrong about the above. I checked my tape of the extended version, and McCoy said something to the effect that he was lucky to find a pair of glasses with the lenses still intact. Nowhere was it said that the glasses were for Kirk's prescription.

By Lolar Windrunner on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 03:58 am:

Interesting I will have to look into that but maybe you are correct and it was from the novel where I heard McCoy say something about the prescription. i will have to get the book out and read it to see what it says.

By Derf on Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 06:18 am:

Here's the scene (in Kirks's home early in the movie) where McCoy suggests that the "antique" glasses have a prescription for Kirk in them ..

McCoy: Yeah well, it takes this stuff a while to ferment. Here, gimme. (takes the bottle and begins pouring drinks) Now, you open this one. (hands Kirk a second gift)
Kirk: I�m almost afraid to. What is it ... Klingon aphrodisiacs?
McCoy: No.
Kirk: (gift contains an antique pair of glasses) Well, Bones ... this is charming.
McCoy: For most patients your age, I usually recommend Retinax 5.
Kirk: I�m allergic to Retinax.
McCoy: Exactly. Cheers ...

This film was obviously made before laser surgery became popular ... I don't think Kirk would be alergic to that.

By Adam Bomb. on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 11:49 am:

Kirk needed the glasses to read, as he no doubt suffered from my own ailment, presbyopia. I understand that laser surgery does not help in those cases.

By Derf on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:51 pm:

Here are the other two scenes where Kirk actually uses the glasses McCoy gave him earlier in the movie:

(Scene - Bridge Enterprise/Reliant)
Kirk: Give me some time to recall the data on our computers.
Khan: I give you 60 seconds, Admiral.
Kirk: (to crew) Clear the bridge.
Spock: At least we know he doesn�t have Genesis.
Kirk: Keep nodding as though I�m still giving orders. Mr. Saavik, punch up the data charts of Reliant�s command console.
Saavik: Reliant�s command?
Kirk: Hurry!
Khan: 45 seconds ...
Spock: The prefix code?
Kirk: That�s all we�ve got.
Saavik: Charts up, sir.
Khan: Admiral ...
Kirk: (to Khan) We�re finding it.
Khan: Admiral!
Kirk: Please ... please, you�ve got to give us more time. The bridge is smashed, the computer's inoperative!
Khan: Time is a luxury you don�t have, Admiral.
Kirk: (takes out glasses and glances side-to-side) Damm!

Scene - Kirk's Quarters
Kirk: (a knock at Kirk�s door as he tosses aside broken glasses while trying to read) Come ...
David: I didn�t mean to intrude.
Kirk: Not at all ... I should be on the bridge.
David: Can I talk to you for a minute?
Kirk: I poured myself a drink, would you like it?
David: Lieutenant Saavik was right. You never have faced death.
Kirk: No ... not like this. I haven�t faced death. I�ve cheated death. I�ve tricked my way out of death, and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity. I know nothing.
David: You knew enough to tell Saavik that how we face death is at least as important as how we face life.
Kirk: They�re just words.

Each scene shows him actually putting the glasses on and using them ... which MUST denote that McCOy meant for Kirk to use them, and NOT just have them as a collector's item ... NOW ... how the guy in the past (ST4) offered $100 for the pair (but suggested that they'd be worth more if the lenses were intact) is a mystery ... that lenses would NOT be over a hundred years old, they'd be NEGATIVE 200 years old!!

By ScottN on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:55 pm:

And, as I said, they wouldn't be glass, if they were custom ground. Even in 1982, plastic lenses were common.

By Electron on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 08:00 pm:

But maybe McCoy decided to replicate glass lenses suitable for Kirk and appropriate for the antique glasses.

By Lolar Windrunner on Monday, March 04, 2002 - 09:17 pm:

Why would he use regular glass when supposedly by this time they have Crystalline/Transparent Aluminum (which we actually have in reality right now for limited uses such as military/Police riot shields). I would think that unless there is some outstanding reason why it would be impracticle there is still polycarbonate like I have which would be better and more durable than glass (not to mention probably safer. And I say that in the Trek Universe Transparent Aluminum is common because a few months (and two movies later) Kirk and Scotty talk about it like we do plastic sheeting when making the fish tank in the BOP.

By Will on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 11:17 am:

Interesting that at a time when Kirk feels old, and sure wouldn't want to look old because he's wearing glasses, that McCoy wouldn't buy him contacts, which would allow him to see and not feel old. Of course, maybe Kirk is squeamish, like I am, about touching his own eyeballs, but I doubt it.

By Jesse on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 09:48 am:

There is a very serious problem with timing in this movie.

Consider: when the landing party finds the dead bodies on Space Station Regula I, McCoy states, "Well, rigor hasn't set in, so this couldn't have happened too long ago.? The Columbia Encyclopedia states that the onset of rigor mortis varies from ten minutes to several hours after death. This means that, at most, Khan murdered the workers several hours before. Based on Chekov and Terrell's later statements about Khan, the time between the death of the workers and his departure from the station was negligible (i.e., he didn't spend much time at Regula I after the people died). That means that Reliant intercepted the Enterprise, the two ships fled from each other, and the Enterprise made it to Regula I all within several hours--the maximum time period before the onset of rigor mortis.

Now, let's look at the other side of the picture. Spock reports that the Enterprise is "12 hours 47 minutes" away from Regula I "at current speed" (which was Warp 5 the last time we checked). Immediately after this scene, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy watch the Genesis tapes from Kirk's quarters. McCoy and Spock argue, but their argument is interrupted by Saavik's report that they have detected the Reliant. Wait a minute! At this stage the Enterprise is at least 12 hours from Regula. But as we've seen, other dialogue indicates that they must be much closer! This is a huge nit in the script.

Adding insult to injury, both Reliant and Enterprise lose warp drive in the battle. (Joachim reports that "they've damaged the photon controls and the warp drive", whereas Scotty states that "main power" has been knocked out. Later on, the Enterprise does not have warp capability until Spock brings "the mains" back online.) The "12 hours 47 minutes" should stretch into weeks, or even months!

An interesting side point: evidently the creators realized this glitch, because it was fixed in the novelization. The novel states that Spock and McCoy argue, Kirk breaks up the fight, and then later that night, during a dinner in Kirk's quarters, Saavik reports that the Reliant has been detected. The intervening time places the Enterprise very near Regula I when they battle the Reliant.

By Sophie Hawksworth on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 01:51 pm:

That's a good point Jesse.

It's a while since I saw this movie, and I may be way out here, but is there any chance that Khan attacked Regula after he attacked the Enterprise?

By Derf on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 03:26 pm:

I am assuming that Khan attacked Regula BEFORE he atacked Enterprise, based on the apparent continuity of the movie stated above. Besides, he had Chekov and Terrell onboard the Reliant. If he went to Regula after he attacked Enterprise ... well, no, that would work too, he could've dropped them off knowing that Enterprise was soon to follow ... gee, now that you bring it up, there is NO direct dialogue/filmed sequence that says he didn't go to Regula after attacking Enterprise.

By Sophie Hawksworth on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 04:48 pm:

I'm not sure it makes sense for Khan to attack Regula before attacking the Enterprise. Consider the sequence of events:

1) Khan threatens Carol Marcus that they will take Genesis
2) Khan attacks Regula
3) Khan attacks Enterprise

Firstly, Khan looses the benefit of surprise by warning Regula that he is coming to take Genesis. Secondly, if despite the jamming Regula had been able to get out a distress call during the attack then Kirk would have come in with all guns blazing instead of being lured into an ambush. Khan would have given away a strategic advantage TWICE.

One the other hand:
1) Khan threatens Carol Marcus that they will take Genesis
2) Khan attacks Enterprise
3) Khan attacks Regula

The threat to take Genesis lures Kirk in. Khan disables the only starship in range. Khan attacks Regula knowing that no starship can interfere. That seems like much better strategy.

By Mikey on Thursday, March 14, 2002 - 11:36 am:

Well, Enterprise was already well on its way to Regula when it was intercepted by Reliant. So it's not unlikely that the battle took place fairly close to there.

Additionally, Kirk ordered Enterprise to Regula after receiving a jammed signal from Carol Marcus. The transmission was "jammed at the source," meaning Reliant was already there.

According to Terrel, Khan had to leave in a hurry so he can blow Kirk "to bits." Granted, this could be interpreted as Khan wanting to leave to engage Kirk a second time. But that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

This whole line of discussion started when someone questioned the timing based on McCoy's comment about rigor not having set in. Keep in mind that rigor sets in after death. It's possible that when Khan left, those people weren't dead, but simply left to die (slit throats don't always lead to quick deaths). The people eventually died somewhere in the interim.

So the sequence is more like:

1. Carol attempts to contact Kirk, but the transmission is jammed because Reliant is already there.

2. Kirk orders Enterprise to regula.

3. Khan beams down to the station and interrogates the scientists, who are stalling for time so that Marcus and co. can beam Genesis down to the planetoid.

4. Pressed for time, Khan abandons the station (leaving Chekov and Terrel in a locker). He leaves the scientists to die.

5. Reliant engages Enterprise. Enterprise wins and proceeds to Regula.

6. The scientists, left hanging and bleeding, die.

7. Enterprise arrives at Regula.

By ScottN on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 12:44 pm:

Here's some ruminations on the Ceti Alpha V/VI confusion. Phil brought this up in the book, but I think it's a deeper problem.

Kirk left Khan and Co. on Ceti Alpha V. The Reliant thinks it's looking at Ceti Alpha VI. Phil comments on the unlikeliness of C.A. V going into the EXACT orbit of C.A. VI. I'd like to expand on that.

Just how big was Ceti Alpha VI? If it exploded, and sent Ceti Alpha V into it's orbit, it had to send C.A. V FURTHER from its primary. The only way that could happen is if was 1) behind C.A. V in it's orbit, or 2) on the other side of Ceti Alpha (in which case, the star would block most of the effects). Any other case would have blown C.A. V TOWARDS the primary instead of outward.

But if C.A. VI is so big that it's destruction can cause C.A. V to move outward, then why are they even looking at it for Genesis?

OK, while writing this, I came up with an explanation... (nit and anti-nit for the price of one). Maybe a fragment of C.A. VI passed close by C.A. V, and the gravitational interaction whipped C.A. V out of orbit. But it would have to be a hell of a big fragment.

Another nit on the Ceti Alpha system (though it was a clever way to get Khan into the film): Why aren't there warning buoys surrounding the system, warning people not to pick up hitchhikers/castaways? Shouldn't the Ceti Alpha system be marked as "Off Limits"? Or don't they think Khan and Co, with their superhuman abilities would be able to create some form of space travel? Why was the Genesis project even LOOKING at the Ceti Alpha system?

By LUIGI NOVI on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 07:39 pm:

I guess the eyes don�t have it
Why would Kirk need glasses or Retinax? Vision can be corrected today with laser surgery. It should be even more sophisticated in the 23rd century.
Huge plot twist for anyone too lazy to read the dam n movie�s title
When Chekov sees the strap in the Botany Bay with the words Botany Bay written on it, he understands who the containers belong to, and tries to escape with his captain. So after being captured, why does Chekov say, "Khan!" with such surprise when Khan takes his mask off? Well, because he�s playing the part of the audience member, sure, but is even the audience surprised at this point? They must have seen the usual pre-movie publicity and commercials, and they PAID five bucks for the movie, didn�t they?
Khan must�ve stopped at the Enterprise gift shop before leaving at the end of Space Seed
Claudio J. Emery, of Philadelphia, PA, pointed out in The Star Trek Communicator #132 that Khan�s necklace in this film features a Starfleet insignia belt buckle, like the ones worn in the later Trek movies, (though with part of it broken off) and has it one when he first takes off his headgear in front of Chekov and Terrell, even though no one had them when he first appeared in Space Seed. Where�d he get it from?
That�s what happens when you buy a watch from some guy on the street displaying them from inside his jacket, Khan
When Terrell tries to reason with Khan�s followers, Khan tells him that they swore allegiance to him 200 years before Terrell was born. Actually, it should be 300.
Well, that line is kinda bullshi*t
Saavik comments to Spock about Kirk, saying, "he�s so.... human". She says the same thing to David Marcus in the next movie. Isn�t that like saying a girl is "kinda pregnant"? Are there degrees of being human? Is "human" a Vulcan metaphor as it is a human one? Whereas the human metaphor means "sentient," or "mortal," or "fallible," or "humane," does it, in Vulcan usage, mean "illogical"? If so, wouldn�t this constitute a racist slur? Not a very logical comment for a Vulcan to make.
What�s in a name? Depends on who you talk to.
Also, concerning this exchange, when Spock answers Saavik, he speaks in Vulcan, and addresses her phonetically as "Saavika," or "Saavikan." Are proper nouns like names translated in the 24th century? I know we used to this, like making Cristoforo Colombo�s name Christopher Columbus in English, or Colon in Spanish, but I never really understood this. I don�t see why the name "Pari" is called "Paris" in English. I never understood why a proper noun, especially the name of a specific person or city is not called in every language what it�s called in its indigenous one. And if the character is indeed called Saavika, why would an English-speaking person call her Saavik?
That�s nothing. During Captain Pike�s time, a slot would just slide open on the console, and a pair of eyes behind the slot would say, "What�s the password?"
To access information of the Genesis Project, Kirk submits to a retina ID scan. According to Dr. Mitchell Rubinstein, retina patterns are a lousy way to ID someone. They are individual as fingerprints, but can change with age or disease, and can be surgically altered with little difficulty. They are notoriously difficult to quantify. It is inconceivable that they will be cutting edge technology 300 years from now, and in fact, we can do better today. I myself would point out that DNA, which is the source code for fingerprints and retinal patterns and way more individual than retinal patterns (aside from identical twins), was discovered and modeled by James Watson and Francis Crick in 1953, decades before ST II was produced. While it is not yet possible to compare the entire 3 billion base pairs which make up a single person�s DNA sequence (what is being done instead in criminal cases is comparison of several discrete points, or loci, along the chain), we should certainly be able to 300 years from now.
Khan must�ve been really good at "Pin the Phaser Blast on the Starship"
After the Reliant attacks the Enterprise, Spock tells Kirk that they knew where to hit them. Why is this surprising to him? If it�s the Reliant crew attacking for some reason, they would know where to hit the Enterprise. But let�s say Spock and Kirk suspect it�s someone else is controlling the Reliant (Kirk does say, "Who?"). This raises the question of how Khan did know the Enterprise�s weak spots? True, Khan did study the technical manuals on the Enterprise back in Space Seed, but didn�t Decker say in ST I that the Enterprise has been so retrofitted that it�s virtually unrecognizable to Kirk? Or do those changes not include its vulnerable points? Kirk and Spock should assume it is the Reliant crew, because they would be more likely to know their weak spots. Another set of people would not.
I smell an insurance job�
When Spock points to the graphic and tells Kirk they knew where to hit the Enterprise, the graphic shows that two points on the Enterprise saucer, and more on the port and starboard sides of the stardrive section blinking. But the Reliant fired its phasers only at the port side of the Enterprise�s stardrive section, not the saucer, and not its starboard side.
Maybe some of his babes like to "spanked by Daddy"
As Kirk and Saavik prepare to use Reliant�s prefix code, he takes out the old-fashioned glasses Bones gave him, and puts them on to add to his bluff. Does Kirk always carry these around?
Course, Kirk is such a philanderer, he�s used to having bodily fluids all over his stuff
At the Movie Mistakes page for this movie at http://www.movie-mistakes.co.uk/film.php?filmid=1218, it was pointed out that the blood stain on Kirk�s jacket keeps moving around. When the dying Peter Preston first places his hand on the exposed white portion of Kirk�s uniform, in sickbay, he places it near the bottom, and bloody imprint is clearly that of his hand. But when Kirk is back on the bridge, the stain is now in the middle of that white garment, and it�s a more diffuse shape.
Thank God Prince Charles wasn�t in this movie. Woulda wiped out the FX budget.
In the shot of the unconscious Chekov�s ear as the Ceti eel slides out, the camera moves in closer from a shot of his head to a shot of what is obviously an oversized prop ear for the eel prop to be pushed out of. They also use it in the scene where Chekov and Terrel first have the eels introduced into their ears, but in this case, Chekov is lying on the ground, and his ear is tilted. But when the shot cuts to the prop, it�s horizontally straight, as the prop makers didn�t think to examine the way Walter Koenig�s ears are slanted.
Okay, who forgot to flip the waterfall switch?
When Kirk first sees the Genesis cave, a shot shows a waterfall in the background that doesn�t seem to move. I know it�s a matte painting, but they still manage to combine mattes with movement in other places, even on Trek, like the Bajor and Cardassia matte paintings on DS9. The matte painter should know enough not to include elements that should move.
First a waterfall, now a sun. Is there a Starbucks in there too?
When Kirk and Carol enter the Genesis cave, there is a large central light source in the cave, partially covered by one of the cave�s walls. What is that? It looks like it�s meant to emulate the sun, but this is an underground cavern. It also doesn�t look like an artificial source, and it doesn�t make sense that the scientists, if choosing to put artificial lighting to nourish the plants, would make it so centralized.
Lieutenant Saavik, have someone go outside and stand on top of the saucer section with some rods wrapped in aluminum foil�
Saavik says that the static discharges and gas makes tactical displays and shields useless. First of all, why would static or gas make shields inoperative? Second, why would they affect displays? If the sensors work, why would they be unable to use an output device to view the info? Sulu couldn�t get a target lock on the Reliant. Did she mean to say that sensors are inoperative? If so, then }that�s} what she should have said, not the "displays." This is like saying that the static and gas makes turbolifts inoperative.
And you�ll never believe how all the females on the Enterprise suggested the have Kirk recreate the Captain having a missing appendage theme�
While the Moby Dick references in the movie are well-known, a few were pointed out at Movie Mistakes that I hadn�t known of before: In the book, the whale is circling Ahab�s ship on the ocean. At one point in the movie the Enterprise is circling the Reliant in the Mutara Nebula. Ahab had a scar up one entire side of his body given to him by an encounter with the whale. At the end of the movie Khan has a burn mark/scar up one side of his body as well.
Don�t worry Doc, my underwear is made of lead
When Bones tries to stop Spock from entering the enclosed irradiated area, saying that no human could survive the radiation, Spock replies that he is not human. Huh? Isn�t he half human? Didn�t he say so to Bones, no less, in Spectre of the Gun?

By Benn on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:42 pm:

"I guess the eyes don�t have it
Why would Kirk need glasses or Retinax? Vision can be corrected today with laser surgery. It should be even more sophisticated in the 23rd century."

>>We're sorry. The nit you have posted - "I guess the eyes don�t have it
Why would Kirk need glasses or Retinax? Vision can be corrected today with laser surgery. It should be even more sophisticated in the 23rd century." - is a repeat of a nit posted by Derf on March 3rd, 2002 at 6:18 a.m. This is a recording.<<

"When Terrell tries to reason with Khan�s followers, Khan tells him that they swore allegiance to him 200 years before Terrell was born. Actually, it should be 300."

In "Space Seed", when Khan first awakens, he asks Kirk how long had he been asleep. Kirk's reply was, "We estimate 200 years."

"Also, concerning this exchange, when Spock answers Saavik, he speaks in Vulcan, and addresses her phonetically as "Saavika," or "Saavikan." Are proper nouns like names translated in the 24th century? I know we used to this, like making Cristoforo Colombo�s name Christopher Columbus in English, or Colon in Spanish, but I never really understood this. I don�t see why the name "Pari" is called "Paris" in English. I never understood why a proper noun, especially the name of a specific person or city is not called in every language what it�s called in its indigenous one. And if the character is indeed called Saavika, why would an English-speaking person call her Saavik?"

Not being an expert in the Vulcan language, but I always assumed it was similar to the addition of "san" in the Japanese to the end of the name of someone being addressed. Also, it's possible each suffix version connotes a particular social status. One could refer one who is a student, the other to one to one who is younger than the speaker. |Shrugs| Like I said, I'm not a Vulcan linguist.

"After the Reliant attacks the Enterprise, Spock tells Kirk that they knew where to hit them. Why is this surprising to him? If it�s the Reliant crew attacking for some reason, they would know where to hit the Enterprise. But let�s say Spock and Kirk suspect it�s someone else is controlling the Reliant (Kirk does say, "Who?"). This raises the question of how Khan did know the Enterprise�s weak spots? True, Khan did study the technical manuals on the Enterprise back in Space Seed, but didn�t Decker say in ST I that the Enterprise has been so retrofitted that it�s virtually unrecognizable to Kirk? Or do those changes not include its vulnerable points? Kirk and Spock should assume it is the Reliant crew, because they would be more likely to know their weak spots. Another set of people would not."

Uh, they asked Chekov? They checked Reliant's computer banks for the info?

"As Kirk and Saavik prepare to use Reliant�s prefix code, he takes out the old-fashioned glasses Bones gave him, and puts them on to add to his bluff. Does Kirk always carry these around?"

Is there a reason he wouldn't? His eyes are bad after all.

"When Bones tries to stop Spock from entering the enclosed irradiated area, saying that no human could survive the radiation, Spock replies that he is not human. Huh? Isn�t he half human? Didn�t he say so to Bones, no less, in Spectre of the Gun?"

The exact line is, "As you are so fond of observing, Doctor, I am not human." In other words, he's throwing McCoy's own words back at him. He was also using it as a justification for his actions. Anatomically, Spock was closer to Vulcan than human anyway. (Thanks to Derf for the transcript to Wrath of Khan!)

By Brian Fitzgerald on Monday, March 18, 2002 - 09:32 pm:

Why aren't there warning buoys surrounding the system, warning people not to pick up hitchhikers/castaways? Shouldn't the Ceti Alpha system be marked as "Off Limits"? Or don't they think Khan and Co, with their superhuman abilities would be able to create some form of space travel?

I always figured that the federation figured that Ceti Alpha V was the one that exploded. Since Kahn's men were on that planet they figured that everyone died and there was no need to close off the system any more. Of course the idea of Ceti Alpha VI exploding in such a way as to shift Ceti Alpha V's orbit like that presents its own nits but they have already been discussed.

By Derf on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:14 am:

Luigi Novi:
"When Terrell tries to reason with Khan�s followers, Khan tells him that they swore allegiance to him 200 years before Terrell was born. Actually, it should be 300."

Benn:
In "Space Seed", when Khan first awakens, he asks Kirk how long had he been asleep. Kirk's reply was, "We estimate 200 years."}

ME:
Luigi Novi has a valid point. However, there is a better quote than the one Luigi Novi uses. While reminicing before placing the "bugs" in Terrell and Chekov, Khan states, "On Earth ... 200 years ago ... I was a prince with power over millions." He then states that the Botany Bay was lost in space in the year 1996. I believe the episode "Space Seed" makes a similar reference. Now, let's jump to the scene where Kirk and McCoy are having that Romulan Ale in Kirk's home. Kirk looks at the bottle and comments on it's date by saying "2283", to which McCoy replies "Yeah, well it takes this stuff awhile to ferment." From this we can assume that the "present" is the very late 23rd century, maybe even 2296. 2296 - 1996 = 300 years. Khan (and Kirk in "Space Seed") was off by about a hundred in his math skills.

This, however, brings up another point ... why would a bottle of Romulan Ale have an "earth-centric" bottling date on it? Maybe Khan/Kirk's math skills aren't so bad after all. 2283 in Romulan might be 2096 in Earth years!

By ScottN on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 10:27 am:

Re: Using DNA instead of retinal patterns for ID.

Seems to me that it's a heck of a lot easier to obtain a DNA sample to fake than someone's retina.

By LUIGI NOVI on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 01:08 pm:

Derf: Why would a bottle of Romulan Ale have an "earth-centric" bottling date on it?
Luigi Novi: I would point out that we the viewer didn�t actually see the date, and suggest that it didn�t say the Earth date 2283, but the Romulan date, and that Kirk simply translated it mathematically in his head. For all we know, the bottle said 789954 (written in Romulan, of course), which comes out to the Earth year 2283.

ScottN: Seems to me that it's a heck of a lot easier to obtain a DNA sample to fake than someone's retin
Luigi Novi: The computer has to have the retina pattern of the individual on record in order for the ID system to work. Someone could steal that pattern from the computer, and surgically alter themselves, or perhaps use a device to send a signal to the ID machine telling them that the right retina is in front of them.

By Benn on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:54 pm:

"Benn:
In 'Space Seed', when Khan first awakens, he asks Kirk how long had he been asleep. Kirk's reply was, 'We estimate 200 years.'}

ME:
Luigi Novi has a valid point. However, there is a better quote than the one Luigi Novi uses. While reminicing before placing the 'bugs' in Terrell and Chekov, Khan states, 'On Earth ... 200 years ago ... I was a prince with power over millions.' He then states that the Botany Bay was lost in space in the year 1996. I believe the episode 'Space Seed' makes a similar reference. Now, let's jump to the scene where Kirk and McCoy are having that Romulan Ale in Kirk's home. Kirk looks at the bottle and comments on it's date by saying '2283', to which McCoy replies 'Yeah, well it takes this stuff awhile to ferment.' From this we can assume that the 'present' is the very late 23rd century, maybe even 2296. 2296 - 1996 = 300 years. Khan (and Kirk in 'Space Seed') was off by about a hundred in his math skills." - Derf

Again, I believe TOS was originally supposed to be 200 years in the future. It wasn't until Star Trek the Motion(less) Picture that the timeline was bumped up another hundred years. Khan was told 200 years, he accepted 200 years. (I guess he wasn't as bright as he was made out to be.)

By Lolar Windrunner on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 02:03 am:

Hello, the insomniac is back. There was some discussion about how the Enterprise got damage on her starboard side when she is returning to spacedock. Well here is some definite proof that she did take some damage. When Spock is showing Kirk the damage on a display there are blinking lights on both sides of the ship. So either the shot went all the way through or Reliant somehow swung around while we wernt looking and got Enterprise on the Starboards. Also they must have been in-system when they got into the battle because when Relian goes flying over the Enterprise it casts a shadow like it is passing between Enterprise and a star. Just some observations. And I am using the VHS tape from the same boxed set that I posted from TMP. The one where all six movies make a picture of the ship with the red background. Also the computer did request Kirk to identify himself, maybe it used a voice pattern check as well as the retinal scan. Also NANJAO when Kirk,McCoy and Saavik go over to Regula Kirk's collar goes up and down a couple of times. The most noticible is when they dio the close up when kirk opens the door just after McCoy gets startled by the Rat. Another thing Terril is the captain of the Reliant but aparently not command division as he wears the Grey undertunic of Support instead of the white of Command.

By Lolar Windrunner on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 02:15 am:

Actually it must have been something else because by the time Terrell gets down to the planet he is wearing the white (just not a Cholox white) tunic. And now I will stop posting for tonight.

By Bo_ on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 08:38 pm:

More on the Ceti Alpha V / VI business.

Forgive me if someone else has pointed this out, but the whole Ceti Alpha V being confused for Ceti Alpha VI is actually the most ridiculous gaffe in the entire film - and suggests Starfleet is in fact run by morons...

Whether Ceti Alpha VI (CA-VI) was destroyed or not makes NO DIFFERENCE to the nomenclature of CA-V. Planets are traditionally numbered OUT from their sun - that is, first planet out = "Planet 1", second = "Planet 2". Hence the Earth being the 3rd planet in our Solar System.

Therefore, even with the destruction of CA-VI, CA-V would still _BE_ CA-V when the Reliant arrives.

The only logical way for CA-V to be confused with another planet in the system would be if CA-IV had been destroyed.

And even then, considering the Ceti Alpha system appears to have been well-mapped at the time of TOS, for the Reliant ro arrive in the system and not notice:

a) Scans revealing the planetary body count to be 1 down on established records and

b) one hell of a lot of orbital debris circling the star

...does not speak highly of Terrell, his crew or his Russian Exec.

By Andy H. on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 11:57 am:

Tying Up Loose Ends Dept.: Is it possible that Carol Marcus was the "little blonde lab technician" that Gary Mitchell aimed at Kirk when Kirk was Mitchell's instructor at the Academy? Kirk did say he almost married her, and David Marcus' age would be about right. Hmmmm.

Also, a nit... when Kirk slides down the tube into engineering in the scene where Spock dies, he's grabbed by Scotty and McCoy and... somebody else who mysteriously appears, plants his head in the good captain's midsection and then disappears just after Scott and McCoy relase Kirk, so Kirk can talk to Spock through the plexiglass.

Who was that other guy and when did he enter the scene?

By Andy H. on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 01:00 am:

Equipment Oddity: When did photon torpedos become real, solid, metalic torpedos? In ST:TOS, they always seemed to emphasize the "photon" aspect... the torpedos seemed to be some kind of non-corporeal energy weapons (always illustrated as globs of light). Now, they're tangible metalic things. Less photonic, more torpedo-like.

By LUIGI NOVI on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 09:11 pm:

I simply assumed that the torpedoes merely emit light when fired, not that they're made out of them. They actually use matter/antimatter annhilation when exploding, not photons, which I'm not sure would really have much of an explosive yield.

By Andy H. on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 12:22 pm:

So, the "photon" thing was just a reference to the pretty light the torpedo emits as it homes in on its target, and the light itself serves no functional purpose. Hmmm.... I think in military procurement circles this is called "guilding the lily."

Maybe that's why they finally upgraded to "proton" torpedos (open bids, new contractors, etc.)

By LUIGI NOVI on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 01:03 pm:

You're thinking of Star Wars, Andy. Proton torpedoes have never been mentioned in Trek. The next type of torpedo in Trek is the quantum torpedo, first mentioned in Defiant(DS9).

By Andy H. on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 02:12 pm:

I stand corrected. They are indeed Quantum Torpedos (although, I'm not sure a Quantum will kill you any better than a Photon).

And here I thought you were going to bash me for bad spelling (e.g.: "guilding" the lily... which would put it in a trade union, as opposed to "gilding" the lily, which would mean applying gold leaf to it.)

Mea culpa.

By Richie Vest on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 09:34 pm:

Bought the special editon DVD today. I have always liked the extra footage. It adds to the movie.

By MarkN on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 12:18 am:

I almost got it today. What's the extra footage and how many more minutes long is it?

A girl at work told me she read in a Star Trek magazine that Walter Koenig said he got an advance copy of the screenplay and was thinking of reminding the writers (or whoever it was) that he wasn't around yet when "Space Seed" was made so Khan wouldn't've remembered Chekov as he said he did, but he kept silent cuz he didn't want to get less screentime. This was new to me but has anyone else heard or read this?

By LUIGI NOVI on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 12:30 am:

The scene in which Peter Preston is established to be Scotty's nephew was cut from the film, but is be restored in the new DVD director's cut.

So is that line now canonical? Does a restored director's edition take precedence over an older version where canon is concerned.

By Wes Collins (Wcollins) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 02:02 am:

I would think so. It's out there for sale by Paramount. And it's Meyer's prefered version, so I vote yes.

By Anonymous on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 06:54 am:

Here's a nit for the ST2 DE DVD: In the extra feature where they interview the authors, when they talk about all the aliens in Trek history from which they can steal, when the image of Balok on the main viewer appears, they identify the episode as "The Carbomite Maneuver". Not part of the actual movie, but a nit nonetheless.

By ScottN on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 10:22 am:

They meant the "Carbolite" maneuver. Balok was on a low-carb/low-fat/low-sugar diet.

By Sven of Harrison Ford on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 11:18 am:

Surely it was the Carbonite Manoeuvre? [Taxi for Nine - everybody]

By Josh M on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 12:26 pm:

There are actually several new scenes and lines. (Well not several, just a few) I'll post them later with my nits.

By Darth Sarcasm on Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 02:30 pm:

There are more expanded scenes than new scenes. In fact, except perhaps the shot in the Jeffries tube before the Mutara Nebula battle, I don't recall any scenes that weren't in the original cut (and even that I wouldn't qualify as a new scene, but a shot in a loner, continuous scene).

By Josh M on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 01:19 am:

Sarcasm does have a point there.
Here are the Director's Cut scenes that I noticed:
1. There was, of course, the scene where we learn Preston is Scotty's nephew in the engine room.
2. The scene where Preston dies is extended.
3. A few lines of dialogue are added when McCoy and Spock argue over how the Genesis torpedo could be used after viewing the simulation with Kirk.
4. After beaming up from Regula, Spock, Saavik, and Kirk climb a Jeffries Tube up to the bridge where Kirk tells Spock that David is his son (Spock responds with what seems to be an interested "Fascinating." Hmmmmmmm.) Of course, our favorite Darth mentioned this scene.
5. Michael Okuda pointed out that a few lines of dialogue are added to the scene where McCoy gives Kirk the glasses. McCoy tells Kirk that he has another antique for Kirk's collection. He says that he "usually administers (rather than "recommends" as in the original) Retinax" and he tells Kirk that the glasses are 400 years old and are hard to find with the lenses intact anymore (which makes the line from ST 4 even better, IMHO)

By Josh M on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 12:01 pm:

Nits and observations:
1. I didn't notice this until I bought the DVD but I love the fact that there is an exit sign near the beginning of the movie. You can see it when Kirk meets Spock after the simulation. I guess I'm not very observant.

2. When the slug creature leaves Chekov's ear, Kirk vaporizes it. Why does it scream after it is gone?

3. After Kirk, McCoy, and Saavik beam over to Regula I, we see a shot of Uhura on the communication screen trying to hail the station. Yet she is completely silent. Why is this? Did the away team hit the mute button on her when they came over?

4. After the Reliant attacks, Khan gives Kirk one minute to look for info on Genesis. During the entire process, Khan keeps interrupting Kirk during the search. Why? If he's going to give him a minute, why not wait for that minute to go up then ask for the information? Interrupting the search will just slow things down. Eventually, Khan gives Kirk over two minutes rather than one.

5. Late in the movie, Joahchim informs Khan that impulse power has been restored. Khan voices that they are now more than a match for "poor Enterprise". When did the Reliant lose impulse power? Did he mean full impulse power?

6. In the final battle in the nebula Kirk orders Sulu to fire phasers at the Reliant. After a near miss Khan orders the aft torpedoes (plural) to fire. The Reliant then fires one torpedo. One. Is the Reliant low on torpedoes or something? Does Khan not want to waste them? Why not fire in a few more places to increase chances of a hit?

7. After Khan gets Genesis, Kirk tells him that he'll have to come down to Regula to kill him. Why does he have to go down? Why can't he just beam Kirk up? He knows that Kirk is somewhere near Genesis' coordinates. Can't he scan the area and find him?

By Adam Bomb on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 11:01 am:

Josh-All the scenes you described are in the ABC version that originally aired in 1985. One problem I had was that when the additions were put back in, no additional sound work was done on them. The most obvious is after Kirk's "scolding" of Peter Preston, when Kirk boards the lift to go to the upper level of Engineering. The lift made such a racket when it started up. Was there additional sound work done, to correct these oversights?

By Benn on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 06:19 pm:

Not all the scenes shown on ABC have been added. Still missing are the scenes where McCoy operates on Chekov's ear and a reaction shot of McCoy and Carol Marcus in Sickbay as the Enterprise takes yet another pounding from Reliant.

By Josh M on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:09 am:

ScottN: Is the Genesis wave affected by gravity? The simulation seemed to indicate that it would pass over a planet, taking about 30 seconds to do so. This would indicate that the wavefront travels at about 50,000 mph or 80,000 km/h (assuming an Earth sized planet).
So why won't impulse at any reasonable fraction of the speed of light (reasonable being defined as at least 1% of c) get them out of the range of the wave?
Star Trek: The Magazine suggests that the genesis torpedo used the nebula�s matter to make the planet (remember the nebula seemed to disappear after the explosion?). If the Enterprise had been around, its matter would have been rewritten as well.

ken c: About the genesis planet-- I can see how possibly the genesis planet can be formed from matter from the nebula, but where did the sun come from??
It appears that it used Regula�s sun. The nebula seemed to be very close to the planet (both ships made it there quickly at sublight)

This creates a nit: Aren�t nebulae supposed to be really huge, several times larger than planetary systems? Is it possible for one to be part of the Regula system? I guess it could be outside the system if Regula is the outermost planet.

Derf: WHY wouldn't Jedda (with a weapon trained on the intruders) NOT fire upon Terrell and Chekov IMMEDIATELY while they drew their phasers?
He may have seen that Carol relaxed when she recognized Kirk and lowered the phaser allowing Terrell and Chekov to draw theirs. Or maybe he was distracted by the fight.

ScottN: Kirk's glasses break in the battle. Even today, hardly any pairs of glasses actually use glass. Most use either plastic or some form of polycarbonate.
Derf: NOW ... how the guy in the past (ST4) offered $100 for the pair (but suggested that they'd be worth more if the lenses were intact) is a mystery ... that lenses would NOT be over a hundred years old, they'd be NEGATIVE 200 years old!!
Like I mentioned above, the extended scene where McCoy gives the glasses to Kirk has him state that they are 400 years old, making them from the 19th century. I guess they used glass back then (that�s what I�ve always assumed anyway. I don�t really know my eye glasses history)

Luigi Novi: When Chekov sees the strap in the Botany Bay with the words Botany Bay written on it, he understands who the containers belong to, and tries to escape with his captain. So after being captured, why does Chekov say, "Khan!" with such surprise when Khan takes his mask off? Well, because he�s playing the part of the audience member, sure, but is even the audience surprised at this point? They must have seen the usual pre-movie publicity and commercials, and they PAID five bucks for the movie, didn�t they?
What did you expect him to do? Casually start up a conversation with him? (Oh, hey Khan. What are you doing here on Ceti Alpha VI? Did V explode or something? How have the last 15 years been?)

When Terrell tries to reason with Khan�s followers, Khan tells him that they swore allegiance to him 200 years before Terrell was born. Actually, it should be 300.
While Khan�s other lines (like �200 years ago I was a prince) may be completely incorrect, this one may actually be close to being right. ST: II takes place in 2285. When the movie was filmed Paul Winfield was about 40. I think that it�s safe to assume that Terrell was close to that age, making his birth date around the 2240s. If Khan�s followers swore allegiance to him around 1990, it is only a 250 year gap, making Khan�s statement a little more correct.

After the Reliant attacks the Enterprise, Spock tells Kirk that they knew where to hit them. Why is this surprising to him? If it�s the Reliant crew attacking for some reason, they would know where to hit the Enterprise. But let�s say Spock and Kirk suspect it�s someone else is controlling the Reliant (Kirk does say, "Who?").
You answered your own question. Kirk doesn�t think that it is the Reliant�s crew.

This raises the question of how Khan did know the Enterprise�s weak spots? True, Khan did study the technical manuals on the Enterprise back in Space Seed, but didn�t Decker say in ST I that the Enterprise has been so retrofitted that it�s virtually unrecognizable to Kirk? Or do those changes not include its vulnerable points? Kirk and Spock should assume it is the Reliant crew, because they would be more likely to know their weak spots. Another set of people would not.
Khan does have the Reliant�s computer and Terrell and Chekov all at his disposal. Finding the refitted Constitution-Class�s weak points should be easy for him, especially with Terrell and Chekov�s knowledge and ability to access information from the computer.

When Spock points to the graphic and tells Kirk they knew where to hit the Enterprise, the graphic shows that two points on the Enterprise saucer, and more on the port and starboard sides of the stardrive section blinking. But the Reliant fired its phasers only at the port side of the Enterprise�s stardrive section, not the saucer, and not its starboard side.
Perhaps we didn�t see all of the firing that the Reliant did. We didn�t see where the torpedo hit. And you can see damage on the underside of the saucer section on the port side. However, I don�t know about shots later in the film and whether they show damage or not. (I checked and we do get a nice long shot of the Enterprise�s starboard side when it reaches Regula I. There is no damage on the starboard side.)

As Kirk and Saavik prepare to use Reliant�s prefix code, he takes out the old-fashioned glasses Bones gave him, and puts them on to add to his bluff. Does Kirk always carry these around?
Why wouldn�t he? It would be bad to be in a tough situation and not be able to read what the consoles were scrolling.

At the Movie Mistakes page for this movie at http://www.movie-mistakes.co.uk/film.php?filmid=1218, it was pointed out that the blood stain on Kirk�s jacket keeps moving around. When the dying Peter Preston first places his hand on the exposed white portion of Kirk�s uniform, in sickbay, he places it near the bottom, and bloody imprint is clearly that of his hand. But when Kirk is back on the bridge, the stain is now in the middle of that white garment, and it�s a more diffuse shape.
Phil caught this one. It�s in the Classic Trek Guide.

Luigi Novi: When Kirk first sees the Genesis cave, a shot shows a waterfall in the background that doesn�t seem to move. I know it�s a matte painting, but they still manage to combine mattes with movement in other places, even on Trek, like the Bajor and Cardassia matte paintings on DS9. The matte painter should know enough not to include elements that should move.
If you look closely, you can see that the water appears to be moving. At least, that�s what the creator�s intent was.

When Kirk and Carol enter the Genesis cave, there is a large central light source in the cave, partially covered by one of the cave�s walls. What is that? It looks like it�s meant to emulate the sun, but this is an underground cavern. It also doesn�t look like an artificial source, and it doesn�t make sense that the scientists, if choosing to put artificial lighting to nourish the plants, would make it so centralized.
Star Trek: The Magazine says that it is natural phosphorescence that gave the cave an illusion of sunlight.

By ScottN on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 09:55 am:

More on the Genesis wave being affected by gravity.

In the simulation, the wave stuck to the planet, it didn't expand spherically. I suspect that's what Carol and David expected it to do. However, when Khan exploded the device, the wave expanded spherically. Therefore, I must assume that the wave is affected by gravity.

By ScottN on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 09:57 am:

By Darth Sarcasm on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 12:40 pm:

When Spock points to the graphic and tells Kirk they knew where to hit the Enterprise, the graphic shows that two points on the Enterprise saucer, and more on the port and starboard sides of the stardrive section blinking. But the Reliant fired its phasers only at the port side of the Enterprise�s stardrive section, not the saucer, and not its starboard side. - Luigi

Who said that the damage has to appear on the exterior of the ship in order for it to appear on the graphic? There was plenty of damage on the Bridge, despite the fact that Reliant didn't target it.

By LUIGI NOVI on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 01:29 pm:

And why is that? Why is there damage to the bridge if the Reliant only hit the Enterprise's stardrive section?

By Darth Sarcasm on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 02:24 pm:

Why does a transformer on a telephone pole blow when lightning strikes miles away?

I am, by no means, an electrical engineer, but it seems logical to me that striking the power center of a ship could have damaging and dangerous repercussions in other sections as well.

By LUIGI NOVI on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 10:51 pm:

But it wasn't established that the "power center" was struck. The only thing we saw struck was the hull of the engineering section. We don't even know if there is a centralized power source.

By Josh M on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:49 am:

Isn't that what the warp core is? A central power source?

By LUIGI NOVI on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 02:51 am:

Only for the warp drive, but Darth is talking about some source for the entire ship that, when struck on the engineering section, would cause serious damage to the saucer. If the Reliant's phasers penetrated the Enterprise hull all the way to its warp core, it wouldn't have simply caused damage to the bridge; it would've blown up the entire ship.

By NarkS on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 09:13 am:

Why did they need warp? Here's an interesting answer: the Genesis device was aboard the Reliant. When detonated/deployed/whatever, it starts reforming matter. What happens when it gets to the Reliant's antimatter storage tanks? The Enterprise was hardly far enough away to escape an explosion like that.

Of course they go through the trouble to imply that an explosion with the Genesis device was worse than one without. But either way I'd prefer to get out of there fast.

By Darth Sarcasm on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 11:08 am:

But it wasn't established that the "power center" was struck. - Luigi

It was also not established how Scotty's nephew got injured. All we know is that there was an explosion in Engineering which is where he works (and the last time we see him in Engineering, he's fine). But deductive reasoning allows us to postulate that the two are connected.

If your ship is struck and you lose everything but the battery, do you have to have a character state that the "power center was struck" for it to have happened? And since Engineering is where Kirk always turns to find out the status of various ship's systems: (phasers, transporters, auxiliary power, etc.) it's not such a big leap to suggest that this is the power center of the ship.

By ScottN on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 12:06 pm:

Yes, NarkS, but the problem is that the dialogue indicates they don't care about a warp core explosion, they're worried about getting caught in the Genesis matrix. See the scene where Kirk is told the distance, looks at David, and David shakes his head.

By LUIGI NOVI on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 02:02 pm:

Nark: The Genesis device was aboard the Reliant. When detonated/deployed/whatever, it starts reforming matter. What happens when it gets to the Reliant's antimatter storage tanks? The Enterprise was hardly far enough away to escape an explosion like that.
Luigi Novi: You're talking about the end of the movie. The scene I mentioned in my nit was at the beginning, when Khan first attacked the Enterprise.

Darth Sarcasm: But deductive reasoning allows us to postulate that the two are connected.
Luigi Novi: Connected, yes, but that doesn't mean it's totally centralized, and I'm not sure if hitting the engineering section should cause such damage to the saucer that it shows up on an graphic that Spock refers to when says that Reliant knew where to "hit" them. The oddity of big showers of sparks erupting from consoles when some other part of the ship is an old nit, anyway.

By Darth Sarcasm on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 02:44 pm:

I'm not sure if hitting the engineering section should cause such damage to the saucer that it shows up on an graphic that Spock refers to when says that Reliant knew where to "hit" them. - Luigi

Part of the problem is that we're not told what the graphic Spock points to is meant to indicate. Since it highlights sections that weren't directly fired upon by Reliant, then obviously the graphic was not meant to represent that. Instead, it seem logical to me that it was meant to represent sections that were damaged by the attack... but not necessarily damaged by direct phaser fire.

This doesn't make it a nit so much as just insufficient information. Again, ask anyone who's weathered severe lightning storms how often transformers blow even though the lightning struck miles away and the transformers in between are undamaged.

I don't understand why the section has to be directly struck in order for it to be reported as damage. Earthquakes cause damage to structures even when the epicenter is miles away... and miles underground! Can't a series of massive explosions in a vital section of a ship result in severe damage in other sections as well? Why does the damage have to be limited to Engineering?

By Josh M on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 05:18 pm:

About the central power source:

Didn't Scotty say that the "main energizer" had been hit? Or was offline? I remember that Phil pointed out in the Classic Trek Guide that he wondered what exactly the main energizer was.

By LUIGI NOVI on Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 08:53 pm:

Darth Sarcasm: Part of the problem is that we're not told what the graphic Spock points to is meant to indicate. Since it highlights sections that weren't directly fired upon by Reliant, then obviously the graphic was not meant to represent that.
Luigi Novi: Ah, but that's exactly how I perceived it, and here is where our difference lies in our perception of the scene. Spock specifically refers to where they "hit" us, when referring to the graphic. Information in visual storytelling media like movies is supposed to be clear. It would not be my first interpretation of the scene that the writer or set designer intended the audience to understand that the damage was caused by indirectly by some power surge that went from the point of phaser impact to the bridge, but that Spock was referring to where the Reliant hit them, which is why, given that the graphic shows areas that weren't hit, I saw it as a nit.

Mind you, it's possible they intended it as you saw it, but that's not the most obvious interpretation to me. I could be wrong, so I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to a difference of perception.

By Darth Sarcasm on Thursday, August 15, 2002 - 11:17 am:

I dunno... it seems equally logical to me that Spock was merely commenting on the extent and specificity of the damage.

The fact that the graphic displays damage in a section of the ship that wasn't struck directly by Reliant proves, in my mind, that it wasn't meant to be a graphic to represent that. You call it a nit. I call it insufficient information that can be explained through logical deduction. (If it wasn't representing that, then it must have been representing something else.)

Another point: Which would be a more helpful graphic to a ship in the midst of battle? One that displays exactly which sections are damaged and in need of repair? Or one that only pinpoints the external sections of the ship that succumbed to enemy fire?

By Mike M on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 11:35 pm:

Carol Marcus is searching for a lifeless planet to test Genesis on.
Spock describes Regula 1 as "A Rock in Space"
So, basically, Carol Marcus is sending Reliant out to find a dead lifeless body, when there's one right in her back yard. (No wonder they're so ticked off at the begging.)

By Derf on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 04:18 am:

Kirk, just after Saavik orders abandon ship shouts "Okay, open 'er up" and then the viewscreen rolls open letting Kirk walk into the simulator room, indicating (at least to me) that the simulator room viewscreen also acts like a one-way mirror, allowing Kirk to see into the room yet displays klingon battle cruisers at the same time ... cool technology!
Also, when Kirk exits the simulator room, He encounters Spock and says "Aren't you dead?" ... during their stroll down the corridor they pass a worker who appears to be waxing the floor, yet they continue their stroll as if the floor is already dry. Once again ... the superior technology is very evident.

By Merat on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 09:25 am:

Mike, they already used Regula I for the second test. Using it for the third as well could impact the results.

By LUIGI NOVI on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 02:22 pm:

It's possible that the viewscreen acted as a one-way mirror, but not necessarily true. With the sophisitcation of technology they have, it would make more sense if they were all monitoring the students at personal observation stations linked to using cameras placed throughout the simulated bridge. For example, if a student is doing something at a rear workstation on the "bridge," observing from behind the viewscreen isn't a good idea, because the helm and Ops and captain's chair might block a good view.

By Lolar Windrunner on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 09:45 pm:

Probably Kirk had seen enough and wanted to get in the door to talk to the cadets and walked from the observation area and to the door.

By ScottN on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 01:20 am:

Why is the transfer pod hatch next to the Torpedo bay? That's where Kirk&Co. come aboard.

David says that the Genesis device is on a 4 minute countdown, yet when Khan starts it, it starts counting down at 999. Since it's apparently being designed by humans, wouldn't it make more sense to use seconds?

By chrisJ on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 01:44 pm:

I only know that according to the tech manuals and original movie model, there is a port in this area, and the opposite side also. Kirk makes his entrance in the first movie via the lower port in the secondary hull near to the hanger bay. The torpedo bay seems to be regularly used for inspections, although i can't think why. It seems a little cramped to me.
Some things that bug me: Sorry if it's already been mentioned, but why did they show up again using a shuttlepod? There is no mention of transporter problems this time.
And why does the movie seem so afraid of revealing who exactly Khan's beloved wife was? The revelation even to non-series fans would be of some interest if they were told that she was a historian who worked aboard Enterprise.

By Duke of Earl Grey on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 07:06 pm:

Speaking of Dr. Carol Marcus "dumbing down" the Genesis project for the feds in her presentation video, she says they plan to "in-ter-duce" the Genesis device into a lifeless body, rather than "introduce". Makes one wonder if she made it all the way through medical school saying "nuculer."

By Gomer Kirok on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 07:50 pm:

Maybee she wuz frum the suthern part o the federashun?

By Mike on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 07:59 pm:

Gee, Gomer, its also Northerners who say that. In fact, it is a common mistake in almost ANY American dialect.

By Derf on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 09:31 pm:

If this topic has come up before ... I hereby offer an apology:

Kirk: (walks to the chamber door and presses the comm button) Spock!!
Spock: (Spock struggles to his feet and makes his way to the comm panel) The ship � out of danger?
Kirk: Yes �
Spock: Don�t grieve � Admiral. It�s logical. The needs of the many � (gasp) outweigh � (groan) �
Kirk: � the needs of the few.
Spock: � or the one. (weakening) I never took � the Kobayashi Maru test until now � what do you think � of my solution?
Kirk: (choking back tears) Spock �
Spock: (dropping to his knees) I have been � and always shall be � your friend � live long � and prosper � (Spock collapses and dies)
Kirk: (wailing) No �

WHY would Spock ... a Starfleet CAPTAIN ... NOT have taken the Kobayashi Maru test??

By Loconix 4 on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 01:15 am:

Becasue he came up throuhg the science department not command school like kik did.

By LUIGI NOVI on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 03:55 am:

I saw it tonight at the Loews Theater on 34th and 8th Ave in Manhatthan. It was the first time I�ve seen it on the big screen. Prior to tonight, the first Trek movie I ever saw in theaters was ST VI. The funny thing is, I didn�t even know it was out. I was staffing a screening for How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days, and as I entered the lobby, I noticed this was on the marquee. There was only one showing, a 10pm show, but since How to Lose a Guy ended around 9pm, and the auditorium playing ST II was just across from the one with Guy, I just walked into it after Guy ended.
---At first I thought perhaps they had released the special Director�s Cut in theaters, but seeing the quality of the film, it appeared not to be the case, so I�m guessing it was just some 20th anniversary thing. It was interesting to see how everything is magnified after having seen it only on the small screen, and not just the good things. Some of the overacting is a bit more noticeable, (the idiot nerd sitting around me kept cackling during the dramatic moments, and mostly during Kirk�s "Khaaaannn!!" line.) The musical note chosen during two shots of the Reliant appearing to battle the Enterprise toward the end of the movie seem a bit melodramatic.

I noticed some things I had either never seen before, or that never gelled in my head, so here goes:

I used to think that starship decks were always numbered, and that this only changed with Enterprise, and that this therefore was only the practice prior to TOS. Are there any references to either letters or numbers during the original series� run? I ask, because after returning to the Enterprise from the Genesis cave, Spock tells Kirk that the turbolifts are "inoperative below C Deck."

Not until convention season rolls around
Okay, so Admiral Kirk is now teaching at the Academy, but what about the rest of the Enterprise crew? What are they doing there? Don�t they have other assignments and duties?
Because the Kobayashi Maru is a simulation, so there�s acting involved
Why did Kirk take the Kobyashi Maru three times? It�s not like he could�ve gotten a better score than on the first two, since it�s a test of character, rather than something you can a bad score on. How could he have needed to take it more than once?
Genetically engineered to make a dramatic entrance
After bringing Terrell and Chekov into the Botany Bay cargo pod that serves as their home, all of Khan�s followers have removed their outer clothing and masks. While they were doing this, Khan must�ve been leaning up against a wall, arms folded, tapping his feet, waiting for them to be done, so that he could do so himself all alone for dramatic effect, because when he takes his mask coat off, his followers are all standing behind Terrel and Chekov, having already done so.
It measures Walter Koenig�s acting ability. Code Blue!
When Chekov tells Carol Marcus that Reliant is coming to get Genesis, a visual of him appears on Carol�s monitor, but for some reason, there isn�t one of Carol on Chekov�s monitor at his Reliant bridge station. Just a green squiggly line, that looks kinda like an EKG line.
Sure he can. Khan secretly had Carol switched to Sprint.
Chekov tells Marcus that Reliant will be there in three days. Khan then jams Carol�s transmission to the Enterprise, which is eventually neutralized entirely. A ship can jam a transmission coming from a space station when it�s three days away?
I guess being able to read a watch wasn�t part of his genetic engineering profile
After first attacking the Enterprise, Khan appears on the viewscreen and tells Kirk that he has 60 seconds to turn over all information on Genesis. 25 seconds after he says this, he notes that Kirk now has 45 seconds (when it should be 35). A minute and 8 seconds after this, when 1 minute and 33 seconds has elapsed after his original ultimatum, Khan notes that he has 15 seconds less. 29 seconds after this, after a total of 2 minutes and 2 seconds have elapsed, Khan looks at a viewer on the console in front of him, nods his head, and says, "Time�s up." Sure it is, Khan. It was up a minute ago.
Unless you�re Al Gore
After finding the dead scientists at the station, Bones says that it couldn�t have happened too long ago, because rigor mortis hasn�t set in. How does he know it didn�t set in and then disappear? Barring drugs or a cold environment, rigor mortis is gone 36 hours after death.
Maybe the guy who can�t read a clock properly shouldn�t be expected to know much else
When Kirk and Spock speak in code in the Genesis cave, Kirk asks if Enterprise is unable to even beam the away team back, and Spock says no. But there are still shuttles, and Khan, listening in, should know that.
I�ve heard of actors with bad timing, but this is ridiculous
As he commits suicide, Terrell�s screams only begin after he is disintegrated, and the Ceti eel�s screams continue after it is disintegrated.
It must�ve been appropriated from Homer Simpson�s plant
After entering the reactor room toward the end of the movie, the reactor wobbles when Spock takes the lid off.

By Merat on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:10 am:

But is there a way for shuttles to reach this deep underground facility?

By Darth Sarcasm on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 10:34 am:

Why did Kirk take the Kobyashi Maru three times? It�s not like he could�ve gotten a better score than on the first two, since it�s a test of character, rather than something you can a bad score on. How could he have needed to take it more than once? - Luigi

Just because the scenario is unwinnable doesn't mean they aren't scored on it or that you can't fail the test. Perhaps, like a driving test, points are deducted for specific actions or inactions... and enough points fails you.

Chekov tells Marcus that Reliant will be there in three days. Khan then jams Carol�s transmission to the Enterprise, which is eventually neutralized entirely. A ship can jam a transmission coming from a space station when it�s three days away? - Luigi

A couple of possibilities...

1. Chekov (per Khan's instruction) was lying.

Had she believed Reliant was at their door, Carol may not have bothered to contact Kirk and ask him to confirm his order.

2. A few days have passed between Chekov's message and her eventual message to Kirk.

I doubt that independent researchers and scientists have direct and immediate access to on-duty Starfleet Admirals (even those on a training cruise). So it may have taken some time for her to get the authorization to be patched through.

When Kirk and Spock speak in code in the Genesis cave, Kirk asks if Enterprise is unable to even beam the away team back, and Spock says no. But there are still shuttles, and Khan, listening in, should know that. - Luigi

I was always under the impression the cave they were in was an enclosed environment. In other words, there is no opening to let a shuttle through.

After finding the dead scientists at the station, Bones says that it couldn�t have happened too long ago, because rigor mortis hasn�t set in. How does he know it didn�t set in and then disappear? Barring drugs or a cold environment, rigor mortis is gone 36 hours after death. - Luigi

Perhaps they arrived at Regula One less than 36 hours from when Kirk received Carol's message.

As he commits suicide, Terrell�s screams only begin after he is disintegrated, and the Ceti eel�s screams continue after it is disintegrated. - Luigi

Perhaps it isn't a scream we hear but the sound of air filling the space their bodies used to occupy.

By LUIGI NOVI on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:35 am:

Merat: But is there a way for shuttles to reach this deep underground facility?
Luigi Novi: Oh yeah. Duh.

Darth Sarcasm: 1. Chekov (per Khan's instruction) was lying.
Luigi Novi: Well, sure he was lying about the orders coming from Kirk, but about the time to reach Regula? To what end would he lie about that?

Darth Sarcasm: 2. A few days have passed between Chekov's message and her eventual message to Kirk.
Luigi Novi: That seems very unlikely to me.

Darth Sarcasm: Perhaps they arrived at Regula One less than 36 hours from when Kirk received Carol's message.
Luigi Novi: Meaning less than 36 after those scientists were killed? If so, rigor would�ve still been there.

Darth Sarcasm: Perhaps it isn't a scream we hear but the sound of air filling the space their bodies used to occupy.
Luigi Novi: It sounds like Terrell and the eel screaming, Darth. And the eel doesn�t appear to be instantly disintegrated like Terrell, by destroyed as if by a flamethrower.

By Brian Fitzgerald on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:19 pm:

Darth Sarcasm: Perhaps they arrived at Regula One less than 36 hours from when Kirk received Carol's message.
Luigi Novi: Meaning less than 36 after those scientists were killed? If so, rigor would�ve still been there.

Almost right, if it were less than 36 hours after the messege was sent rigor would still be their, assuming it had time to set it at all.

By Darth Sarcasm on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 01:25 pm:

Well, sure he was lying about the orders coming from Kirk, but about the time to reach Regula? To what end would he lie about that? - Luigi

Perhaps you missed the sentence that follows the passage you quoted:

"Had she believed Reliant was at their door, Carol may not have bothered to contact Kirk and ask him to confirm his order."

In other words, Khan could have been giving her the illusion that she had plenty of time to consider her options and call Kirk. If she knew Reliant was (for the sake of argument) an hour away, she probably wouldn't have bothered to call Kirk to confirm the order.

That seems very unlikely to me. - Luigi

Again, the sentences following the passage you quoted illustrates a scenario which I feel is likely.

I doubt that independent scientists (in that they don't work for Starfleet) have direct lines to Starfleet vessels... anymore than a nuclear physicist has the ability to directly call a Naval Admiral onboard an aircraft carrier. Chances are she would have had to contact Starfleet and request some kind of authorization to determine Kirk's location and contact him. I doubt that authorization is immediate.

Meaning less than 36 after those scientists were killed? If so, rigor would�ve still been there. - Luigi

Which brings us back to McCoy's line that it couldn't have happened too long before because rigor hadn't set in, yet.

If Enterprise reached Regula within 36 hours of Kirk's contact with Carol, but rigor hadn't set in, yet... then that means they had been killed shortly before Kirk got there.

It sounds like Terrell and the eel screaming, Darth. - Luigi

I was kidding. Hence, the smile.

By Josh M on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:13 pm:

Luigi Novi: After entering the reactor room toward the end of the movie, the reactor wobbles when Spock takes the lid off.
Just FYI, I'm pretty sure that Phil got this one in the Guide.

By Josh M on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:31 pm:

Luigi Novi: Okay, so Admiral Kirk is now teaching at the Academy, but what about the rest of the Enterprise crew? What are they doing there? Don�t they have other assignments and duties?
Maybe they all teach. Kind of depressing to see this entire, valiant, legendary crew teaching.

Luigi Novi: Why did Kirk take the Kobyashi Maru three times? It�s not like he could�ve gotten a better score than on the first two, since it�s a test of character, rather than something you can a bad score on. How could he have needed to take it more than once?
I was under the impression that he didn't need to take it again. He wanted to beat it. He might have felt that there was some way to not get the ship blown up, even if it is obviously rigged for defeat.

It's even possible that he intentionally lost the second time to make his third time, the victory, look that much better.

Luigi Novi: After bringing Terrell and Chekov into the Botany Bay cargo pod that serves as their home, all of Khan�s followers have removed their outer clothing and masks. While they were doing this, Khan must�ve been leaning up against a wall, arms folded, tapping his feet, waiting for them to be done, so that he could do so himself all alone for dramatic effect, because when he takes his mask coat off, his followers are all standing behind Terrel and Chekov, having already done so.
They're supermen. I'm sure they can undress extremely fast. Besides, perhaps Khan was relieving himself while they were undressing. Or maybe he just has a flair for the dramatic.

After first attacking the Enterprise, Khan appears on the viewscreen and tells Kirk that he has 60 seconds to turn over all information on Genesis. 25 seconds after he says this, he notes that Kirk now has 45 seconds (when it should be 35). A minute and 8 seconds after this, when 1 minute and 33 seconds has elapsed after his original ultimatum, Khan notes that he has 15 seconds less. 29 seconds after this, after a total of 2 minutes and 2 seconds have elapsed, Khan looks at a viewer on the console in front of him, nods his head, and says, "Time�s up." Sure it is, Khan. It was up a minute ago.
Has no one really pointed this one out yet? It's one of the most obvious in the movie. Plus, the same problem happens in ST: III as well.

By Josh M on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:38 pm:

After first attacking the Enterprise, Khan appears on the viewscreen and tells Kirk that he has 60 seconds to turn over all information on Genesis. 25 seconds after he says this, he notes that Kirk now has 45 seconds (when it should be 35). A minute and 8 seconds after this, when 1 minute and 33 seconds has elapsed after his original ultimatum, Khan notes that he has 15 seconds less. 29 seconds after this, after a total of 2 minutes and 2 seconds have elapsed, Khan looks at a viewer on the console in front of him, nods his head, and says, "Time�s up." Sure it is, Khan. It was up a minute ago.
Has no one really pointed this one out yet? It's one of the most obvious in the movie. Plus, the same problem happens in ST: III as well.
Oh, someone did point it out. Me.

Didn't realize that one.

By Desmond on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:46 pm:

Regarding the Kobayashi Maru; perhaps Kirk wasn't privy to the fact that the test was a test of character when he took it. Saavik didn't seem to. Perhaps he kept retaking it because he thought it was beatable. That in itself, in fact, would reveal certain aspects of Kirk's character.

By Lolar Windrunner on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 11:42 pm:

As for the Kobayashi Maru. Those cadets who have taken it are sworn to secrecy to prevent the information about the terst leaking to those who are about to face it. (FASA Game Rules and several novels) It is an unwinnable test of a cadet's character when facing a no-win scenario. The program is designed to cheat in favor of the threat forces and is run several times with either Klingons, Romulans or other threat forces involved. (Probably Borg or something else by Next Gen Time) Now about the entire command staff teaching there. Why is that such a sad thing? Who better to teach the next generation of Starfleet the rules of the road as it where then the previous generation's best of the best.

By LUIGI NOVI on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 03:22 am:

It just seemed odd to me that Chekov is the only one to still be pulling starship duty, and that EVERY SINGLE one of the others are ALL participating in the SAME class and/or test.

I like your multiple races scenario, Lolar. If it's true, perhaps we can assume the test in this movie was Saavik's last, which would explain why Kirk is telling her its true nature.

As for FASA, it seems they had the same idea I had, since there has to be a way for cadets not to know it.

By Warman on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 04:13 am:

yeah I could see that in an academy or college. "Lets not tell the lower slots anything about the test and watch them get blowed up real good. hehehehe."

By ScottN on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 11:57 am:

Warman, that's actually what happens in many service academies.

It's sort of a "rite of passage".

By ScottN on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 08:45 pm:

When Khan is getting ready to administer the earslugs to Terrel and Chekov, he describes the symptoms of what happens when the slugs mature and are ready to come out. I don't remember them in detail, but I believe they include madness among other things. When the earslug crawls out of Chekov, all he does is scream and collapse.

I guess Khan could be exaggerating for effect, but that doesn't seem his way.

By John A. Lang on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 09:58 pm:

To quote Khan: "Their young enter the ears and wrap themselves around the cerebral cortex. This renders the victim extremely susceptible to suggestion. Later as they grow, follows madness then death."

By ScottN on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 10:00 pm:

Well, let's see... Chekov didn't go mad, and he didn't die, and the earslug crawled out of his ear on its own.

Either Khan was attempting to terrorize them, or it's a nit. While Khan is brutal, he doesn't seem the type to do that sort of gratuitous exaggeration. It would demean his superior intellect to do so.

By `Doc` Sven of Nine, at it again on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 07:41 am:

Re the ear slugs: presumably once the youngling enters through the ear, it either tunnels its way along the auditory nerve to reach the auditory cortex (thus causing reduced sensorineural hearing on that side), or actively burrows its way through the skull base and meninges to reach the cerebral cortex (thus causing headache via leakage of cerebrospinal fluid). Either way, the thing causes a heck of a lot of physical damage in there... not to mention increased intracranial pressure as it grows, resulting in the aforementioned "death", though the "madness" sounds more like the delirium seen in acute brain insults.

By Will on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 11:14 am:

Of course, we're all assuming that the slug REMAINS inside as it grows. Either this was a dumb slug (it's a baby), or they come and go as they please, perhaps to feed, or something.

By CR on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 04:49 pm:

I'd assumed it fed on its host's brain. Leaving to reproduce, on the other hand, might be an option...

By Sven of Very Little Nine on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 05:19 pm:

Unless it left the person's head because it couldn't find anything to feed on...

[sorry... no, really, I am...]

By CR on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 08:31 am:

Groan and LOL at the same time.

By the way, Sven, now that I 'know' you from all over NitCentral, whenever I see a printed mention of ST: Voyager's Seven of Nine, I invariably read it as Sven of Nine... Seven actually appears wrong to me now!

By Seven of Nin on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 11:00 am:

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

By Sven to the Nine on Tuesday, January 07, 2003 - 11:52 am:

(sorry)

By Peter Stoller on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 09:53 pm:

This may very well be an old nit; I haven't checked the archive for it, but here goes:

Khan transports the Genesis Device from the interior of Regula 1 aboard the Reliant. Kirk says, "...but you haven't got me!" Why doesn't Khan beam up Kirk next, since he's holding a communicator and all? Doesn't he want to get ahold of Kirk? I thought that was his primary motivation throughout the whole film�

By Derf on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 10:05 am:

I believe the appropriate response would be ...
that Khan saw an opportunity to inflict upon Kirk the same exile and suffering HE was made to endure, and he just couldn't resist. (being human, and all) You see, revenge is a dish that is best served cold ... but if that cannot be achieved, make it as HOT as possible!

Although, I totally agree that if Khan's only intentions were to kill Kirk, why not beam only HIM up, and then have a flesh-stripping party?

By John A. Lang watcher on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:51 pm:

Let's get to the heart of the matter:

Alley Saavik = steaming hot.

Later Saavik = yeecch.

Thanks for your time.

By John A. Lang on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 07:44 pm:

I agree with you, Mr. Watcher

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