Here is an interesting discussion between Simon Jones and Phil Eversoul based on Simon Jones’ essay One State as a Jewish Liberation Struggle (appeared on http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005/01/simon-jones-one-state-as-jewish.html

and on www.israelshamir.net )

Simon Jones, a Canadian of Scandinavian origin who lives in Uzbekistan, is a well known internet writer, and his texts appear everywhere, including this list. Phil Eversoul is an American of Jewish background who de-Jewified himself thoroughly. Phil’s remarks are in blue. Simon’s responses to Phil are in [].

Simon Jones wrote: I couldn't get DissidentVoice to print the essay - DV is sooo typically zio lite. They only print Chomsky and other Jews when it comes to criticizing Jews. It seems it just ain't kosher for goys to criticize Jews in public. Too bad. We must reach out – the zios have burned their bridges by now and renewal of the West must come through a fearless critique of Judaism/ zionism and the sad state of Christianity AND respect for Islam.

The one state solution as the liberation struggle for the Jews.

My own road to Damascus concerning the one-state solution has been a long one. While always a critic of Israeli expansionism, I went along with the conventional wisdom that somehow the suffering of Jews in WWII justified at least the existence of the state of Israel, that there was nothing to be done about what from the word "go" was an injustice, so 'Let's support the attempts to create a Palestinian state, even a rump one - get over it, move on, etc.'

It was only with Slick Willy's Oslo 'accord', backed by the 'peace movement' of Israel, but which did nothing to stop more and more settlements from sprouting in occupied territory, and which made no restitution to a half century of dispossessed and murdered Palestinians, that what was really afoot began to dawn on me. 'Hey, Jews are getting billions in reparations for persecution by the Nazis. What about the Palestinians?' I thought. Oslo was understandably rejected by the Palestinians and then resoundingly by the Israelis (though Slick Willy still stoutly defends it on CNN). It finally became clear to all except US presidents that Israeli politicians of all stripes have NEVER had ANY intention of allowing a Palestinian state, even a rump one, to be set up.

That's true. It would go against the Zionist grand plan for conquest and control of the entire Middle East.

Sharon's cynical march onto Temple Mount further made clear for even the most naive well-wishers (again excepting US presidents) that the real political agenda of Israel is nothing less than Greater Israel and the driving of all Palestinians - Muslims and Christians - out of Palestine. Ben Gurion's "It doesn't matter what gentiles say; it only matters what we do" became Sharon's "It doesn't matter what WE say; it only matters what we do." Road maps and peace processes continue to be touted - yes, the dog barks, but the caravan moves on. 911 merely drove the point home. Whether or not Mossad was behind it all, Israel is no longer just a wart, a minor irritation which could be tolerated and hopefully would go away or at least not get worse. It is a cancer, growing more lethal by the day to the entire world, the engine of WWIII against the Muslim world. So the only solution is to oppose the very existence of Israel as a racist state, to fight to bring it down, just as the Muslim world has demanded from the start. Sorry for taking so long, guys!

Simon, the trouble is, where is your army? Israel's Wall shows how to stop guerrillas, maybe not perfectly, but effectively. Not to mention total access to US military developments, plus their own nuclear weapons. Now, in a wide open country like Afghanistan or Iraq, the situation is different. Israel is a fortress.

[I call it 'hell on earth'. Certainly not a nice place to live. It's attracting mostly Philippine maids, European prostitutes (witting or unwitting) and Russian (forged Jewish citizenship) mafia. There were 500 'anti-semitic' incidents last year in Israel. It is self-destructing, and when the US $ collapses and the boycott gets going... You can fill in the blanks.]

Confronting the Jewish century

How naive we liberals, socialists, goys, even so-called anti-Zionist Jews were. But then we are the product of the Judaic secular culture which has triumphed in the West. As the enthusiastic reviewer of Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century (Princeton University Press 2004) claims in a NYRB ad, "the Modern Age is the Jewish Age - and we are all, to varying degrees, Jews." According to him, not only have Jews adapted better than many other groups to living in the modern world, they have become "the symbol and standard of modern life everywhere"

Yes. We are all, in substance, Jews if we believe in the Religion of the H. Such belief aligns us with the goals of Israel, and most important of all, it paralyzes the goyim with guilt. Once you are paralyzed, you cannot resist your enemy. For Judaism, that's the point: paralysis of the enemy. It's done with psycho-venom.

[I've watched too, too many nature shows. Brrrr. Did you watch the Auschwitz ceremony - all the paralyzed goyim standing in the cold, clouds of vapor coming out of their mouths? Now I see why it was so terrifying to watch. The dragon hovering in the air, casting its evil spell. I could only take 10 seconds of the Beeb (it went on for at least an hour).]

Also, as uprooted urbanites with no ties to the land, we are Jews in that sense, too.

[Of course. Capitalism and psychoanalysis are, after all, our alpha and omega.]

Of course, you realize that most Jews are only recent converts to capitalism, regardless of the Rothschild's wealth. In our time, these recent converts created Kosher Capitalism, or neo-conservatism, which isn't conservative at all, but a reinvention of Trotsky's plan for permanent revolution, as we see going on in the Middle East.

Doyen of Israeli journalism Amos Elon said in a recent interview, "German Jewry was the secular elite of Europe. They were the essence of modernism - leaders who made their livelihood from brainpower and not from brawn, mediators and not workers of the land. Journalists, writers, scientists. There hadn't been anything like it since the Renaissance."

Nah, most Jews were always like that, if they had any choice about it. The only difference was that in Germany there was a flowering of it. But there had been one in Spain, too, and in Poland and Lithuania to a lesser extent. Jews originally came to Europe as professionals, not as farmers or workers. The European princes needed to borrow money from the Jews in order to finance their wars against each other. Jews were also doctors, lawyers, tax collectors, as well as merchants. That's why they were valuable in Europe. Of course, over the centuries, some Jews inevitably became farmers, artisans, tradesmen, and such.

So this claim of cultural hegemony is neither new nor especially controversial, though for American academics to boast about it so openly certainly marks a new boldness in the Jewish agenda (also fresh from PrincetonU, Jews and the American Soul by Andrew Heinze, sporting the Statue of Liberty clutching a menorah). If we assume there is more to life than acting out the role of shabbas goy, we must confront this in-your-face Jewish cultural hegemony, which it can be argued includes not only control of intellectual commanding heights, but less prettily, holocaust worship, denial of the spiritual dimension in humanity and the rule of money. For Jews, it means radically rethinking their very identity as Jews whatever cabbage leaf they might have been born under.

Yes, I agree. However, the situation is this: the New World Order has conquered all the cultural ground, all the economic ground, all the political ground, and almost all of the social-religious ground, too. Therefore, those of us who oppose the NWO and seek a replacement for it have no such ground to stand on. We can only stand on our ideals, values, beliefs, thoughts, and vision. But we cannot point to a society, anywhere, that embodies what we seek or what we are talking about.

And for the rest of us, the Zionist plan for a world Knesset in Jerusalem (as recently announced by the Israeli president) is about as acceptable as the much reviled Comintern, and underlines the danger to host countries of these powerful citizens with dual loyalties. Which leads inexorably to the conclusion that this is wrong, in fact treasonous, and must be stopped. Jews of France should be French. Likewise, Jews in the US should be first and foremost Americans. And AIPAC is indeed the agent of a foreign power. And THAT leads to the conclusion that Jews in Palestine should become Palestinians.

In principle, I agree. But as I was saying just above, there is no longer a nation for us to stand on or stand behind. The US is no longer a sovereign nation, merely an administrative unit in the NWO, just like Canada, Germany, Australia, etc., etc. We have been stripped naked, Simon.

[There's Cuba, Chavez's Bolivarian rev, for what they're worth. I know you're not a socialist - I would be happy even with your small-scale capitalism (with strong govt controls to prevent a J take-over) at this point. ANYTHING but what we've got now. You're right about Xianity - it needs renewal. I'm thinking that the only religious answer left is Islam these days. Muslims still have soul (that's why I'm living in Uz), tho the invasion of capitalism is doing its best to destroy it.]

It is not necessary to convert to Christianity, the traditional way that Jews have assimilated.

For the most part, Christianity is no longer what it was before the 20th century. It no longer stands on its original principles. It has been Judaized or kosherized. Christianity has gotten in line with the NWO's program.

However it is essential for diaspora Jews to end their dual loyalty, or rather their loyalty to Israel above loyalty to their host countries. And what is all this about 'host countries', a term in fact coined by diaspora Jews? Enough already. They are your/ their countries every bit as much as they are for the goys that live down the street, who protect the borders, fight the wars and pay the taxes.

Jewish Israeli, not Israeli Jew

This reassessing of Jewish identity is already underway in Israel. Hundreds of Israelis have petitioned the Supreme Court of Israel demanding their 'Jewish nationality' being stricken out and replaced by 'Israeli' or 'Palestinian'. Two million Israeli citizens - Palestinians, Russians and Ethiopians - already are not considered 'Jews' by the Jewish state and do not wish to be. Many more (largely from the former Soviet Union) are considered 'Jews' but nevertheless want to give up their Jewish exclusivity. They want to be first Israelis, or Palestinians - not Jews. As Israel Shamir states in "Not Cricket" (19/12/4 www.israelshamir.net), "the Israeli soul is the scene of struggle between two forces, between two loyalties: that to the land and that to the world-wide Jewish People.

Loyalty to the land has always been a gentile characteristic. Of course, once the Jews got Israel, they had to develop some sort of loyalty to the land, and so, yes, I can see Shamir's point. To really be an Israeli is to stop being a Jew. Very embarrassing for the Zionists.

[The zios have lots to be embarrassed about these days - AIPAC, the WZO financial scandal...]

The loyalty to the land can eventually form a basis for complete unity with the native Palestinian people. The loyalty to world Jewry (Am Israel) is the basis of our xenophobia, of the Wall, of the apartheid state."

Yes. It is the fruit of Jewishness, what it means to be Jew. As I've always said, the problem with Zionism is that it's simply Jews acting on fundamental Jewish cultural-religious assumptions. Zionism is Judaism in action, despite what Jews Against Zionism say. Jews Against Zionism would do the SAME THING as the Zionists, but only when they believed that they got Jehovah's approval to do so. That's JAZ's position: Jehovah hasn't given the green light yet for Jews to act on the principles of the Torah in their own land.

[That goes for the True Torah Jews as well I presume. So they are only allies until the apocalypse. Hmmm.]

The Palestinians are denied equal rights in order to sustain the 'Jewish character' of the state, and the murder and displacement of Palestinians is done in the name of the Jewish People.

Absolutely -- which comes right out of Deuteronomy and Joshua and other such books.

It is the very Jewish character of Israel that is the source of the problem and must be done away with. Jews are not a nation, though Israelis could be, but only by cutting the umbilical cord with the Jewish Lobby abroad. Removal of the special ties between Hebrew-speakers in Palestine/Israel and the Jews abroad is, in a way, a true declaration of Israeli independence. Only when all Israelis are treated the same will the state of Palestine/ Israel be a nation, governed by the principle 'one person, one vote', with basic human rights guaranteed for all. Yes, Israelis will fear retribution for their half century of plunder, murder and duplicity. But when you treat Muslims with dignity and respect, they reciprocate. In any case, Israeli Jews will just have to take this risk.

It's a future political possibility. That's the most that can be said right now, imo. There will first have to be some sort of revolution within Israel. If it occurs, it will be very interesting, to say the least.

There is no other solution.

Yes, in principle. but it means the end of Judaism in Israel. That's what's at stake.

Israel has made its bed and must lie in it.

Until it has the aforementioned revolution.

Beware half measures

There can be no half measures such as the "replacement of the Jewish state of Israel by an Arab-Jewish democratic, secular Palestine" as proposed by some. 'Arabs' and 'Jews' are not two nations. 'Arabs' are a linguistic and cultural group of peoples which includes Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians of all religions, the Jews are a religious caste, 'class-people' as Abram Leon has termed them. There is no way around it: Israelis should be de-Judaised, i.e., de-linked from the Jewish People overseas, so that they can assimilate with the native Palestinians.

Absolutely. The question is, will it happen? The stakes are immense. The Jewish loyalists propose to destroy the al Aqsa mosque, and replace it with the Third Temple.

This is just recapitulating Marx in "On the Jewish question", which predates Zionism, but which is as timely as ever. When he states that "the emancipation of the Jews is, in the last analysis, the emancipation of mankind from Judaism" he is referring to the historical caricature of the selfish, vengeful, racist tribe of the Jewish diaspora, which was a lightning-rod for prejudice, and is calling on Jews to assimilate into their societies and disown their identification with these negative human traits.

Yes, I agree with Marx about the need to abolish Judaism as a cultural-political-religious system. However, the problem is: what cultural-political-religious system do we turn to as a replacement? IT DOESN'T EXIST YET. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. Christianity, as we have it, needs a total overhaul.

Shylock is to be condemned for embracing the caricature, not empathized with, as in Hollywood's latest soft-pedalling of our cultural heritage. Similarly, Zionism and Greater Israel must be rejected, not condoned. Jean Daniel's The Jewish Prison argues that Zionism was viewed early on as an "escape from the stifling closure and ghetto constriction" of Jewish family life, a secular vision of Jewish liberation without Marx. Moses Hess, an erstwhile ally of Marx, envisioned this, not assimilation, as the road to liberating both Jew and mankind. But the result - Israel - has proved to be just another closed system, this time, not the family or shtetl, but a state. Zionism replaced one hell with an even worse one, merely spreading the misery around. Just as Marx's formula remains valid, so does the adage 'You can take the Jew out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the Jew.' Until he abandons Judaism.

And just as traditional anti-Jewish sentiment was based on resentment of the unwillingness of Jews to assimilate, growing anti-Jewish sentiment today is a result of the world Jewish Lobby actively supporting Israeli crimes in the Middle East and claiming Jewish loyalty first and foremost to Israel.

When universities, the Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches try to take a moral stand against Israeli crimes, even such supposedly peace-loving groups as Rabbis for Human Rights decry divestment as an act of 'anti-Semitism' or like Noam Chomsky say it isn't 'effective', and Jewish terrorists threaten to burn Presbyterian churches. But disinvestment in Israel is not a policy against Jews, despite the frantic attempts of the Jewish Lobby and RHR to portray it as such. It is directed against Israeli crimes. It is this age-old refusal to assimilate, now compounded by conflation of the interests of diaspora Jews with the crimes of Israel, that is the cause of anti-Jewish sentiment, not some mental aberration peculiar to goys. End this identification, assimilate, and you cut the anti-Jewish hydra off at the neck.

Yes, the issue is: assimilation means the end of Judaism and hence the end of Jews in that sense, i.e., Jews practicing Judaism.

Like the logic of disinvestment, this compelling logic of assimilation is met with cries of "You marry this shikse and you help finish off what Hitler tried to do!"

That's a quintessentially Jewish point of view.

But as Elon says, "If people want to assimilate to the point that they disappear within the general society without a trace - that's their right. I don't think it's a tragedy. It's not the end of the world."

It is the end, to a loyal Jew.

Then we have the pseudo-assimilationists: "But I am a good American. I am assimilated." This Slezkine-style 'assimilation' is like that of the aliens in the sci-fi cult movie "They live!" (1988), who look for all intents and purposes like natives (only of course superior), and slowly colonize Earth, taking control of the economy, politics and culture. They can only be detected with special sunglasses. Of course the hero sees through this ruse and the goys (oops, I mean Earthlings) triumph, in the Hollywood tradition.

Yes, the point is: they haven't assimilated, only ADAPTED to the environment. That's a critical distinction. We are talking here about the crypto-Jew, with all his camouflage, of which there are many.

Happy ending

Oivey - where is there such a magic bullet in real life! There isn't; however, the break-up of world Jewry will be a wonderful development precisely for Jews. The vast majority will be able to become just Americans, or just Brits, or just French;

The problem, as I said, is that America doesn't exist any more and will have to be reinvented. Same for Britain, France, Germany, Canada, Australia, etc.

[Right. But the world is in such a crisis, when the boil breaks, people will rally around their nation/ community. There will be a renewal much like during and after WWII. I really feel like it's 1938-9.]

A small unthreatening ultra-Orthodox Jewish community will remain with us like the Amish or other tiny observant minorities. Palestine will be united, the native Palestinians restored to their natural position and those Jews who decide to stay will strike real roots in the soil of their adopted land.

Shamir's vision. It's a good one.

The ex-Israeli psychologist Avigail Abarbanel argues that Israeli identity is built upon fear, that it is a political construct that has been used to create a paranoid identity.

It's much bigger than that. Jewish identity is built upon fear and detestation of the goy. It has always been that way. Ever since Deuteronomy, and perhaps before. Further, one of the essentials of Jewish identity is that there is no mutuality or reciprocity of reality between Jews and goyim. Jews live in one world, goyim in the other, and there is no cause-and effect relationship between the two, as far as the Jew is concerned. What this means is that it is impossible for a loyal Jew to comprehend that Judaism itself is the primary cause of "anti-semitism." No, he believes all "anti-semitism" is caused by the beastly nature of goyim themselves, who sporadically strike out at Jews for no good reason at all. Nothing that a Jew does could possibly be the cause of justified goyish anger at Jews. It's all the fault of the goyim, and the Jew is always innocent, or if he is undeniably guilty of something, no goyish court is worthy to try him. The Talmud teaches that only Jews are human and only Jews have a covenant with God, and this attitude has permeated the Jewish soul, through the Jewish culture, even if a Jew is an atheist.

[I think because America is basically Jewish culturally, that assimilation has and is taking place, despite the best efforts of the zios. The total lack of anti-J prejudice (au contraire, the Judophilia) in America means that a substantial number of Js really don't see any difference - 1/2 of marriages are mixed. When the revolution comes, it will come in the US and Israel

together (based on the collapse of the US $/ economy). So I would posit that these quasi-assimilating US Jews don't have the same detestation that Jews formerly had and that the other 1/2 of US Jews (the dangerous ones) have. As for “no mutuality or reciprocity of reality between Jews and goyim”, same argument here. The US is essentially Jewish, so the lesser 1/2 of the Jews don't see much difference between themselves and at least the successful, with-it goys. Tho I must confess, my friendships with Jews have been cool, polite, not longlasting, tho I tried. There was always an invisible barrier.]

Ex-Israeli writer and musician Gilad Atzmon goes further, calling the Israel identity a form of schizophrenia. Yes, there is the pressing need to convince Jewish Israelis that they won't be annihilated as many were in WWII (along with communists, homosexuals and Roma), and we must support those enlightened Jewish Israelis who see integration with the native Palestinians as their own liberation struggle, liberation from the lethal racist core of Judaism.

If this kind of immense change is to occur, it must be done gradually, in steps. Confidence and trust have to be gained at every stop.

[If this kind of immense change is to occur, it must be done gradually, in steps

maybe the Judaization of the US/ Europe is part of this gradual change. The goys have been Judaized (still 'lesser' in the eyes of the zio fanatics and Israel) but these quasi-assimilating Jews are at least partly deprogrammed from the old hate/ revenge/ tribal ethos.]

In biblical terms, Jews must come to grips once and for all with their 'chosen people' status - meaning they must give it up. THAT is the real meaning of 'chosen'.

In the spirit of Buddha and Jesus, spiritual fulfillment is achieved through renunciation rather than racism and war. Now that the "Jewish century" is behind us, we can say that Jews were 'chosen' by history (God, whatever) to lead the way to universal hegemony of the spirit over matter.

But they did JUST THE OPPOSITE. They lead the way to the false belief in the universal hegemony of matter over spirit. They have abandoned the spirit of God, which, I believe, came to us in a much higher manifestation, through the Son of God, Jesus. In my view, the Jews went wrong in rejecting him and his spirit, which was poured out over all mankind: God is our Father, and we are all children of this same God. We are all the sons and daughters of God. That's the basis of universal spiritual enlightenment. Through communism, psychiatry, anthropology, cultural Marxism, and related fields, the Jews gave the world the exact opposite of God's teaching.

[Yes, but through philosophy, psychology, physics (Spinoza/ Marx, Freud, Einstein) ie, intellectually, ie, spirit - distorted, materialistic - yes - but let's keep moving on dialectically. The spiral comes around again at a higher level. This has been my experience as an intellectual - dazed by Jewish thinkers, realizing they have no soul, and struggling to nurture my own underdeveloped soul through spiritual enlightenment. We are all children of this same God. We are all the sons and daughters of God. That's the basis of universal spiritual enlightenment.

Defang Judaism, as Jesus did, and that's what you get.]

The brilliance of Jewish scientists, capitalists, philosophers, etc. is justly recognized. However, the two secular solutions to 'the chosen people achieving liberation' tried in the Jewish century - utopian communism and racist Zionism - proved to be tragic failures for both Jews and gentiles.

And the reason for that failure is just as I said above -- the denial of the spirit of God in man, the establishment of atheistic societies and atheistic viewpoints about everything. Instead of the improvement of Christianity as a bulwark of faith and spirit, Judaism has succeeded in its destruction and cooption. Christianity for the most part is now a whore for Judaism.

[Well said. Time for a dialectical turn of the spiral. I didn't want to get into Xianity too much here, but I agree with you totally.]

In practical terms today the solution requires signing off on such wild schemes, renouncing the flesh-and-blood Jewish state and embracing the one-state solution. Only by receding from the world's headline news and trying to blend into societies wherever they find themselves can Jews be liberated from their tragic history, and find genuine integration with the human race as equals.

This will require a spiritual rebirth. Nothing else is powerful enough.

I cannot emphasize enough: Jews who wish to remain in Israel will have to become first of all citizens of Palestine (a rose by any other name smells sweet), renouncing the mythical blood ties with Jewish citizens of other countries. The longer Israelis continue to dispossess and murder the native population in pursuit of a perverse dream of Greater Israel and the hegemony of world Jewry, the less likely any integration of Jews in Palestine will be possible and the more anti-Jewish sentiment will grow everywhere.

Perhaps a great spiritual teacher will arise in Palestine/Israel to make this possible.

I'm not at all sure that this radical transformation is even possible.

It's possible, as above.

If it is, in addition to assimilation of diaspora Jews into their societies it will mean a new nationalism in Palestine, presumably with a hearty dose of universalism a la Canadian 'nationalism'. Unfortunately, change will require, as in South Africa, external pressure and unrelenting criticism of the apartheid that Zionism implies, but - good cop, bad cop - we must help both Israelis and diaspora Jews understand that, as in South Africa, both master and slave benefit from ending injustice. Long live a united Palestine!

Yes, all we need is the entire transformation of the world (-: