    http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/1674134

    The Gilad Atzmon Interview
    by nessie Tuesday January 27, 2004 at 01:32 AM

    Israeli born musician Gilad Atzmon regards himself as a devoted political
    artist. He supports the liberation of the Palestinian people. In his
    writings on the issue, Gilad suggests a solution of one state for the many
    people based on equality and democracy. In his forthcoming album: 'Exile',
    Gilad & The Orient House Ensemble, the band tries to remove the unnecessary
    barriers between Jewish and Arabic cultures, and to emphasize the similarity
    between the two peoples that lived in perfect harmony for hundreds of years.
    The new album features the great Palestinian singer Reem Kelani and The
    world famous vocalist and aud player Dhafer Youssef.

    nessie: Before we get into politics, tell us a little about yourself, your
    home town, and your family. When were you born?

    Gilad: 1963, Israel, right wing family. I would even say "far right". My
    grandfather was a Commander in the Irgun (an anti-mandatory paramilitary
    fascist organization). My grandfather was a devoted Jabotinsky follower, and
    so was my mother as a juvenile (not anymore). I must admit that I, myself,
    enjoy reading Jabotinsky. Although I disagree with his racist orientation, I
    can still follow his logic, something that doesn't happen to me when I read
    the so-called "left" Zionists. As a young Israeli boy we joined one of those
    settlers' marches in the West Bank. It was then when both my parents and I
    started to realise that something about the Zionist adventure is "slightly
    immoral". Since then the more I learned about the conflict the more I
    realised that I have very little to do with the Jewish state. In 1994 I
    moved to London. If anything, it was the Oslo "wet fantasy" that made me
    realise for the first time that peace with the Jewish state is impossible.
    It would never happen.

    nessie: Would you ever go back?

    Gilad: I don't have any plans to go Israel, neither to visit nor to live
    there.  I would be delighted to come back to a civilized place.  I assume
    that when that happens it won't be Israel anymore - probably democratic
    Palestine.

    nessie: How would you be treated?

    Gilad:  As we learn from the news, yesterday an Israeli soldier opened fire
    on another Israeli while in a demonstration against the emerging wall.
    Identifying myself with the Palestinian people and the Palestinian struggle,
    I would expect to be treated as a Palestinian. It isn't an experience one
    would look for.

    nessie:  What brought you to London?

    Gilad: I moved to London to attend postgraduate studies in Philosophy. After
    Oslo I realised that there is no home to go back to.  I decided to become a
    self-imposed exile.

    nessie:  When are you going to play in San Francisco?

    Gilad: Good question! Our music is available in America, and my book is
    available in America.  I am not so sure whether America is available in
    America (at the moment).  I assume that sooner or later we'll come for a
    tour. We get more and more invitations.  I make my living playing Afro
    American music. I will have to come one day.

    nessie: A lot of people seem to hate you and everyone like you. We get
    threats just for publicizing you.

    Gilad: It is strange that you say that a lot of people hate me.  As you
    might know we are playing all over the world.  Here in the UK we won the BBC
    Jazz Awards for the best Jazz album. This category was voted by the British
    public. Yesterday I won another two Jazz Awards (again voted by the public).
    We are playing night after night in sold out clubs and concert halls. I am
    fully familiar with the fact that some Zionists do not like me, and they
    manage to be pretty vocal about it.  We have to remember that hatred is
    fundamental to Zionist thought and to Zionist people. First they hated the
    European Gentiles, then it was the Assimilated Jews, then the Arabs, and now
    it's me.  This is exactly what I am saying about Zionists.  They need to
    hate, but more than anything else they need to be hated. I want to believe
    that if they hate me so much, they must have a good reason.  I play with the
    idea that I probably say something they really do not like to hear. But,
    again, I might be completely wrong.  It is very possible that they hate me
    just because hate is the name of their game.  Talking about 'hate', I am
    pretty sure that the most vicious weapon against Zionists is just to love
    them with all your heart. I've tried it myself. It isn't easy at all, but it
    works.

    nessie: How has playing music shaped your view of humanity?

    Gilad:  Generally speaking, I am fascinated by German philosophy and
    especially by E. Kant.  Being an artist, I am searching for aesthetic
    meaning. I would say that it is the artist's job to present an alternative
    world view, an alternative reality or vision. Being an artist, I try to deal
    with different hot topics within an aesthetic framework. As one would guess,
    I do believe (like many other people) that the real "axis of evil" is the
    BBS (Bush, Blair, and Sharon); hence, it is my personal duty to overwhelm
    their destructive impetus with aesthetic statements. It probably sounds
    pathetic or even pretentious, but I am truly convinced that it is Picasso
    (Guernica) and Erich Paul Remark who tell us what war is all about. They
    portray a far better image than million real-time TV snaps of blood and
    human corpses.  I would argue that the conflict between beauty and BBS
    expansionist ugliness is the battle I would like to maintain.  Not to win -
    it is impossible to win - just to maintain. Just to survive this battle is a
    great victory.

    nessie:  How did you come to decide to speak out with words as well as with
    music?

    Gilad: Never decided. It just happened. I wrote my book as a joke. Never
    thought to publish it. I didn't dare, thinking that anyone would find it
    interesting enough. I found it six years later by a complete coincidence. I
    thought that it was interesting enough.  I sent it to a publisher. He loved
    it and published it. It got translated and published in quite a few
    languages. Since than I am a writer 'til further notice.

    nessie:  Since someone posted an excerpt from one of your essays here,
    you've come in for a lot of abuse. So have we, just for having you here.
    They call us names. They call me names. They even call my mother names. I
    shrug it off. What do you have to say to people who call you a "self-hating
    Jew", or a "pawn of the anti-Semites", or an "anti-Semite" yourself?

    Gilad: Naming is very crucial in Jewish thought.  God is called "A-Shem" in
    Hebrew which means "The Name". The Jewish circumcision ceremony is named in
    Hebrew "Brit Mila" which means "a covenant with the word". Jews, along their
    long history, have had very many names for their many many enemies only
    because their enemies define their segregated identity. In biblical times it
    was "Amalek", then the "Philistines", then the indigenous habitants of
    Canaan, then it was "Jesus" and his followers , then "Christianity". Then
    the Zionists came and improved the model.  First it was the "Assimilated
    Jew", then the "Palestinians", then the "Arabs", then "Rabin", then the
    "European Union", then "SF Indymedia", then you, and now it's "Gilad", a
    jazz player from London, the "self-hating Jew", the "pawn of the
    anti-Semites". I say names , names, and names!

    I read your site and follow the Zionist verbal abuse. It is clear that those
    Zionists, who stand behind those provocations, enjoy the public contempt
    they manage to generate.  They enjoy being ugly. We have to remember that
    the Zionist identity is defined by negative dialectic, by its opposition.
    In a way, both you and I are supporting some mentally psychotic creatures.
    We just have to remember that the brothers of those psychotic people are
    living in Palestine.  They are fueled by very similar energies, and they
    turn the Middle East into a ticking bomb. They have hundreds of nuclear
    bombs, and they put our planet at a severe risk.

    nessie: Your disparagers around here can't seem to decide whether you are a
    "self-hating" Jew, or even a Jew at all. What's wrong with these people?

    Gilad: Judaism is all about differentiation (avdala).  Differentiation
    between the sacred (Sabbath) and the "everyday", between the Jew and the Goy
    (Gentile), between the chosen and the inferior, between dairy products and
    meat ones, between Kosher and  non-Kosher, and so on. In order to allow the
    Jew to cope with his self-imposed strange reality of segregation and
    prohibitions, every aspect in the Jewish daily life is supported by the
    Talmudic "grand theory". Rabbinical Judaism is a system of laws that create
    a form of correspondence between prohibitions and dated explanations,
    explanations that are far too short to satisfy any rational mind. (J. Lacan
    would say that it is the lack of satisfying explanation which portrays the
    depth of genuine religious conviction)

    Zionism, a secular movement, adopted this very rabbinical method.   When it
    gets to criticism it would be categorically classified as anti-Semitism (as
    if anti-Semitism is a form of explanation). The Zionist would argue that all
    Gentiles are anti-Semites. It makes  life very simple unless you really need
    the support of the Gentile. (For instance, when the Israeli needs the
    American aid, then the Americans stop being anti-Semites and become good
    Gentiles, at least temporarily).

    When it comes to criticism raised by a "Jew," Zionists get into a real
    problem. Because Zionism is supposed to be the "final solution" for all
    Jews, wherever they are, any criticism made by a Jew must be eradicated.

    As you, yourself, noticed, one popular way is to define the critical
    "brother" as a "self hating" Jew. The other method is to declare that the
    critical voice isn't actually a Jew or even not a Jew anymore. The later is
    obvious. If one isn't a Jew, he must be a  Gentile; hence, an anti-Semite.
    No more explanation needed!

    The former is more interesting because "self-hating" is basically a form of
    psychotic mode. The Zionists actually admit that something went wrong in the
    process of Jewish reproduction. A member of the community "lost his mind".
    First, it saved the Zionists, themselves,  from taking any criticism from a
    "mad man". Second, it warns the rest of the world not to take the criticism
    seriously, the man is apparently "mad".

    For many years this doctrine was pretty effective. Jewish anti-Zionists
    calls were successfully muted by the Zionist lobbies, but apparently this
    doctrine isn't effective anymore.   The western world and Europe,
    especially, are far too tired of the Zionist victim blackmail. With Israeli
    atrocities on the TV screen night after night, people start to realize that
    the "mad," "self hating Jew" might have something crucial to say. We better
    listen to him.

    Haaretz published today that "nearly one in five Britons would oppose having
    a Jew as Prime Minister, and one in seven believes the scale of the
    Holocaust is exaggerated" (haaretzdaily.com 24.1.2004). The Zionist
    conspiracy to control world opinion is proved to be counter-effective. The
    British people start to show some real signs of severe fatigue. The French
    and the Germans are already really tired. If anything, the world is awaiting
    for the "self hating" Jews to open their mouth. Uri Avinery, Gideon Levi and
    Amira Hess are far more popular in SF-IMC than in Tel Aviv.

    When it comes to me, my racial identity isn't something I would like to
    share with the world. I have never spoken as a Jew or in the name of any
    Jewish people. I do not think it gives me any credentials. In the doomed
    reality created by Israel, being a Jew becomes something to hide rather than
    being proud of. I speak on behalf of myself. I speak as someone who was born
    in Israel and escaped as soon as he realised what being an Israeli is
    involved with. I wouldn't say that I hate myself, but I would admit that I
    find it very difficult to "love" those who claim to be my brothers. I would
    confess that I find some great wisdom in Judaism but, at the same time, I
    have some serious problems with the symptoms of Jewish identity .

    nessie: Since, by definition, a Zionist is anyone who supports the State of
    Israel, the majority of Zionists are not only not Israelis, they're not even
    Jewish.  The majority of Israel's supporters are at least nominal
    Christians. Some are very devout Christians, who support the State of Israel
    for religious reasons. What do you have to say to Christian Zionists?

    Gilad: Sorry. It isn't as simple as you present it. First we have to ask
    ourselves again what Zionism is all about.

    Zionism is the belief that Jewish people have the right to have a land and
    this land is in Zion (Palestine). I do not have a problem with the idea of
    Jewish people having a land, but I do have a big problem with the idea of
    ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. I do have a problem with the
    idea of an apartheid racist regime. I do have a problem with the idea of
    confiscation of lands. Palestine is not free!!  It is highly populated with
    Palestinians.  If Jews want to live in Palestine, they must respect the
    Palestinian indigenous population and to welcome the millions of
    Palestinians who were dispossessed in 1948 and later.

    Now to the other part of your question. For me the question whether the
    supporter of Zionism is a Jew, Christian, Buddha, or even Muslim is
    completely irrelevant. We are talking here about basic and simple
    understanding of the notion of human rights, something all Zionists prefer
    to ignore.

    nessie: The real anti-Semites say that America is Israel's puppet, that we
    are ruled by "ZOG," the "Zionist Occupation Government." I say it's the
    other way around, that Israel is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the
    Anglo-American neo-colonial empire.  It is, in effect, an unsinkable
    American aircraft carrier, one that differs from the carriers at sea only in
    that it uses Israeli women and children for human shields. What do you say?

    Gilad:  (a.) I do not agree that anti-Semitism exists, and the kind of
    argument you, yourself, present is a perfectly legitimate political argument
    whether we agree with it or not.

    (b.)  The unsinkable qualities of Israel are very much in doubt. Personally
    I think Israel is sinking by the minute.

    (c.)  And now to your question.  I think that originally Israel was there to
    support western colonialism (Balfour Declaration, etc.). It didn't stop
    there. American administrations realised in the late '70s and '80s that the
    only real danger to western globalization is Arab opposition and Islamic
    resistance. Israel was there to maintain a continuous conflict in the
    region. The Americans got involved in the peace process, not in order to
    push for peace, but rather to maintain the conflict forever.  So, in a
    sense, at least historically, you are right. Israel was there to serve
    American interests, but things have changed.  In the last ten years we face
    a shift in the balance of power. The new bond between Zionists, Republican,
    and right-wing Christian groups introduced a completely new phase in the
    American-Israeli relationship. I think that American people would do
    themselves a great favour if they start to scrutinise the acts of their
    government.  Americans should ask themselves whether it is American
    interests that are looked after or rather Israeli ones.

    The war in Iraq is a good place to start such an intellectual exercise.

    nessie: While I find political Zionism to be repugnant for all the same
    reasons I find Nazism repugnant, I have no quarrel with spiritual Zionism.
    I think that reverence for land, and the respect for life that goes with it,
    is a good thing - a very good thing. All too many people look beneath their
    feet and see, not our Mother, giver of all life, but a convenient place to
    spit, and, when the occasion arises, soak with innocent blood. Am I being
    unrealistic about the role of spiritual Zionism in Israel and the world
    today?

    Gilad: I don't know what "spiritual Zionism" is.  I think it is a myth. I
    grew up on that myth.  Being an old boy I realise now that those "leftists"
    who taught us to "love the land" and to "respect the Other" were actually
    those who committed the worst atrocities against the Palestinian people
    (just to mention Ben-Gurion, Peres, and Rabin). The vast majority of Israeli
    Kibbutzim are located on Palestinian confiscated lands.

    nessie: I reject the "invader" analysis of aliens.  I don't believe in
    borders. People have a right to live wherever they can make themselves
    welcome. Jews have a right to live in the Land With Two Names in peace,
    unmolested by their neighbors.  They just don't have the right to lord it
    over others. That's how I feel.  As someone more familiar with the facts on
    the ground, tell me. Am I being unrealistic to believe this is possible?

    Gilad: I don't know. Obviously I agree with you totally about the right of
    people to live wherever they want, but, again, whether the Zionist identity
    can encompass any form of peaceful thinking is a crucial question.  Do you
    really think that those zealot Zionists, who visit your site and try to tell
    you things about your mother, can live in peace anywhere? Do you, yourself,
    want to live in peace with them? Do you realise what form of abuse those
    people perform when they are given a Uzi sub machine gun and let free on
    Palestinian lands?

    I honestly do not think that peace with the Israeli identity is possible,
    but, at the same time, we have to remember that Israeli identity is very
    young. Many Jews decided to reject Zionism. Many Jews have thought that
    emancipation is a great opportunity to transform themselves into something
    else. I want to believe that such a process can take place in Palestine. I
    want to believe that one day the Palestinian Jews will understand that
    "loving their neighbours" is the ONLY way forward.

    nessie: To judge by the way Zionists behave on SF-IMC, one could easily come
    to believe that the essence of the Zionist way is to lie, forge, and barge
    in by force where they are not wanted. Is this a reasonable analysis, or
    does it only apply to this one batch of computer nerds?

    Gilad:  Zionism, as we all know, is deeply rooted in some serious lies, but
    this isn't very particular to Zionism. For instance, isn't "war against
    terror" a big lie? Isn't "American democracy" a big similar lie?  Wasn't
    "weapons of mass destruction" a big, pathetic lie? When one is involved with
    vicious immoral acts, one usually prefers to lie to oneself as well as the
    other. It is more likely that soon after, one would start to take one's lies
    seriously as if they are factually true.  This mode of behaviour is
    symptomatic in contemporary English-speaking cultures.  It is the norm of
    Zionism since the Nakba (the expulsion of the Palestinian in 1948).  I try
    to tell the American and the British people - look at Israel! If you don't
    stop now, you'll soon look like the Israelis.  Nothing to wish for!