Logfile from Nerak.

[Healer] Nerak: what's going on??

[Healer] Aerrin prods at other apprentices. We absolutely must have at least two for this class to work. Preferably more...

[Healer] Graiham: Aerrin is talking about a possible Ethics class.

[Healer] Jaina: It was Keral's class! It was gooood, gooO!

[Healer] Ellora is interested.

[Healer] Aerrin mms. Good! Get ye to the Healer lounge, then, and give me about 10 minutes to grab logs, Waverly, and something munchable. :) Magen nods to everyone and settles down in one of the big comfy looking chairs, with notebook in hand.

[OOC:] Nerak says "have to take the kid over to cat sit.. should be back soon"

Ellora is already seated, her hands neatly folded atop a small stack of hides.

Graiham and his trusty notebook come in from the adjacent dormitory, and park themselves in one of the chairs as well. "Someone said something about a class in here?" he asks aloud, looking 'round at the other folks with a raised brow.

Ellora watches each person enter the room and take his or her seat.Graiham's question is met with a smile and a nod. "I heard so, too," she adds, in her usual soft-spoken manner.

[OOC:] Aerrin gets herself settled in. OK. Quick info - this class is probably a bit different from others you've had. It's very, very discussion based. Which means that you /have/ to pose, and preferably at a decent rate to keep things moving. This class can be very long or very short, depending on participation and people paying attention. It's also very fun - really! ;) Use this class to develop your char. Think about how your char might respond to these questions. IC disagreement is perfectly allowable. Yup. As usual, if you aren't posing regularly, I won't give you credit, but that's not usually a problem. ;) Questions?

"Excellent," says Graiham, opening up his notebook to a nice, fresh page and getting ready to take completely illegible notes. "Any idea why we're in here and not the classroom?" Anyone?

Aerrin isn't /late/, persay. She's just slightly harried. If the mound of hides she's carting with her is anything to judge by, she's also had a rather busy day. Also evident from the several stylis's stuck here and there in a bundle of curls that /was/ pulled tightly back that morning, the ink stains on her fingers, a smudge of dirt across her cheek, and the trailing tail of some sort of stuffed toy that droops from her pocket. Indeed, a busy day. "Afternoon, all," she greets in a rush as hides are dropped onto the floor and she scans the room for an empty chair. "Sorry I'm late. Running a bit behind today. You're all here for ethics, right?" Her words come in a rush before she blinks, draws in a deep breath, and physically slows her fluttering self down.

[OOC:] Aerrin says "Quick question - who's here for credit? Remember that even if you've had 2 adv classes, you need ethics now for promotion"

Ellora starts to shrug then thinks better of it. Instead, she nods to Aerrin's question. She shifts in her seat, leaning forwards eagerly. To Graiham, she does shrug.

Laughing at a Master probably wouldn't earn him any points, so Graiham has the decorum to cough into his fist as he watches the show that is Aerrin. "Of course we are, Master Aerrin," he chirps pleasantly, like he knew that all along. To Ellora, he allows himself to look comically enlightened.

Magen looks at the hurricane in the center of the lounge watching as it finally dies down. The aftermath is a pile of hides. Laughing quietly to herself, she takes another sip of her klah.

Sudanna takes pity on her friend and decided the cup of tea just brewed may better serve another and silently holds out the hot drink, a bemused look upon the offering healer's face.

Nerak walks into the room, heads for the klah pot and fishes her mug out of her bag. Once she has her essential klah, she finds an empty chair and sits herself down. She smiles around at all there while she settles herself. She has already taken the class, but knows each class is different, as is the nature of the class.

Aerrin drops herself into the first cushioned chair she spots with an exagerated sigh. "Good. Let's get started then, shall we?" Sudanna's offer is met with an extremely grateful smile, and she reaches to take the drink. "Shards. Just what I need. Thanks, Dana." Another pause, filled by a long, slow sip, and then Aerrin speaks again. "To start with, feel free to set your notebooks aside. This class is about making you think, not about teaching you facts. You'll find very few right and wrong answers here." Another pause, another delighted sip. "So let's go ahead and get started. Who can define 'ethics' for me?"

Ellora looks down at the hides beneath her neatly folded hands and just leaves them right where they are. After all, they make a nice rest. She licks her lips, waiting for someone else to answer the question while she puzzles out her own response.

Graiham blinks at Aerrin, then down at his notebook. But - but - but how is he supposed to take a classs without his notebook? His brows creased, he watches until at least one other person has put away their notebook before he ventures to do the same, closing the thing but keeping it on his lap nonetheless. "Ethics?" he begins, drumming his fingers atop the book thoughtfully. "Well, being ethical is knowing the right thing to do and doing it. So I guess ethics are the right things to do."

Jassay follows after her mentor and does the same, klah, a necessity in life. That done she finds herself a seat, giving a grin and a wave to all around.

Sudanna says "Anytime Aer.. Holler if you want more." The journeywoman finds an empty seat and settles in, this being one of the few classes she will miss her own work to attend. A nod to a few of the other attendees.

Nerak grins at her mentee and raises her mug to her. She smiles at Aerrin and Sudanna. She sits back in her chair, making herself comfortable, and waits to see which direction this class will go in.

Aerrin nods swiftly, and her hands curl around the steaming mug of tea. "Essentially, yes. Ethics are something that everyone has - but they are particularly important to us, in the Healercraft. Can anyone tell me why?" Her gaze travels the crowded room, but she's not singling out apprentices to answer - yet.

"Healers do no harm," Ellora blurts out--or as close to a blurt as the quiet apprentice can get, subdued and soft-spoken.

Graiham gestures toward Ellora's assertion and says, "Exactly. Because we have the potential to really mess people up, we have to be doubly careful not to do it."

Tiler heading into the room quietly and fashoinably later, Tiler finds a seat close to the door and sits quietly trying not to disturb the class in progress. Fumbling through his notebook he finds a new piece of hide and scribbles Ethics at the top. Speaking up almost immediatly after sitting he notes. "Because doing what needs to be done may not be something we feel is right?"

Sudanna says, "Or the opposite Tiler." Danna has her own personal views of course, that's the whole point of the class. "We may not want to follow through with the 'right thing'."

"Good thoughts, all," Aerrin says with a pleased smile. Her eyes rest on Ellora for a moment, and the usually quiet apprentice is given an encourging grin. "Yes - we, unlike other crafts, deal in life and death at our most extreme. That's a big trust to give us. And a big responsibility. Sometimes it's not always easy to know what to do in a situation. That's why we have this class - so that you can start thinking about those hard decisions before you're faced with a situation where you need to make them quickly." A slight nod goes toward Sudanna, and Aerrin pauses to sip at her tea again as the other healer speaks. "Exactly. Let me start us out with a hypothetical situation - You have a patient who's been horribly burned. He's in a lot of pain, but he /might/ pull through if you treat him. However, if he does he'll be horribly scared and crippled for the rest of his life. What do you do?"

"What does he want me to do?" asks Graiham, glancing around the room a second as if he expects the same words from other people, of course.

Nerak nods, "Very true, some situations can get quite sticky at times... and you need to know just what is the 'right thing to do'." When she hears the situation that Aerrin presents, "That is a hard one, it also has a lot to do with what the patient wants, and/or their family." She takes a sip of her klah and sits back to see what the rest of the class participants offer.

Ellora puzzles over this, shifting her feet against each other in uncertainty before adding to Graiham's answer, "Make him feel better."

Tiler nods in agreement with graiham. "Yeah and if he can't tell you ask his family. They after all are the ones that have to take care of him once he has left our care."

Graiham shrugs at Ellora and says, "But there's a lot of ways that can be taken. Give a man enough fellis and he'll 'feel better'. He'll die, but he'll feel better doing it."

[HealerRankers] Aerrin wonders if anyone wants to take this section for me, maybe? My parents just called [HealerRankers] Aerrin wasn't expecting this

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: I don't have a log..

[HealerRankers] Nerak: doesn't either... sorry

[HealerRankers] Aerrin: http://www.aerrin.sphosting.com/rp/logs/class/myethics

[HealerRankers] Aerrin: Mostly, just play devil's advocate. Ask hard questions. WHat if he wants to die? WHat if he can't answer? When might you not trust family decisions?

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: I'm on it..:>

HealerRankers] Nerak: I'll help play devil's advocate too...

[HealerRankers] Aerrin loves. Thanks, guys. So sorry.

[HealerRankers] Nerak: no problem.

[OOC:] Aerrin passes this over to other rankers for a bit - my parents just called. Heh.

Sudanna says, "What happens if different family members want different things for the patient? And each insists 'they' are right?" Danna doesn't mean to presume, but she sees a chance to push the thinking along. "Who do you listen to and follow the instructions of?"

Magen asks, "You mean, what if the patient isn't able to make the decision and the patient's best interests are not the same as the family's? What if the family would politcally gain from an untimely death? A split second decision may be all you have to make a judgement call. You'd have to use your best judgement."

Ellora shrugs. She drops her gaze to the hides beneath her worrying fingers. "Maybe he was supposed to die," she answers very softly. "If.. If he can't live without pain." She blushes but sticks by her answer with a stubborn clench of her jaw.

Tiler shrugs and continues on his opinion "I feel that would depend on whether the patient after his injuries could remain independent. If he can't I think it should be the families descision. You can't force someone to take care of another."

Nerak grins, "Sudanna and Magen made good points! That does happen. The other thing to think of is this: What if the patient /wants/ to die, what do you do then?"

Graiham says with a firm nod, "Unless the patient can make it plain that he wants to die, I don't think we ought to go around offing people. Family members can advise, but letting someone die when they may well want to live seems completely at odds with the Oath."

Magen silently hopes the day never comes. Hmmm. "There have been times when a rider and dragon have been separated. Usually a if either one dies, the other will too. But cases have happened where a rider remains alive. If you want to call it life. I'd choose to die, I think.

Sudanna says, "I personally will never help a patient to die. I will release them to family in that situation. That's /my/ personal call. But say the family is split and the patient is unable to speak?"

Ellora's brows furrow. She sucks on her lower lips, carefully forming her response before offering it. "But, if they were going to die anyway, would we be killing them if we just let it happen?"

Graiham says after Ellora, "Well, we wouldn't be saving them. Not saving a man when you can is the same as killing him."

Tiler sits and listens quietly before responding. "If they can't talk they can write. There is all ways a way to communicate kill me. But if they want to stay alive I think they should have to be able to take care of themselves or have someone to watch them. What happens if you save someone but they are not independent and their family doesn't want them. Are they gonna let them live in the infirmary?"

Magen's eyebrows knit together..."Killing? Sometimes a will is the only thing left when all medicines have failed. If the person gives up the will to live, can we sustain the inevitable?"

Nerak smiles, "Good point Ellora. Part of this class is to help you to think through your own personal feelings about all of this. I am with Sudanna, I would never help a patient to die either. 'Do no harm' is too deeply ingrained... and I couldn't live with myself if I did." she looks down at her feet... she worked so hard to keep her father alive for so long... "Tiler, the patient might be unconscious, or in a coma. What would you do then?"

[HealerRankers] Aerrin: Make sure you differentiate between helping someone die and allowing them to die

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: hence my point.. releasing them to family or such. Danna won't 'help'.

[HealerRankers] Nerak: agrees...

[HealerRankers] Aerrin: And remember that we're trying to get their opinion, not give our own

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: I know.. I prefaced it as such

Ellora continues to frown, her fingers working the edges of her hides. "Yes, but, if he doesn't want to live, then.." she pauses to think, "..wouldn't we be harming him by keeping him alive?"

Tiler looks up from scribbling in his notebook and turns to Nerak. "Actually after I had stabalized them I'd do nothing. My job is not to change their diapers. If someone wants to thats fine with me my only job is to save them. And in Ellora's case put the fellis in the needle and give it to them all they need is one working hand. You can't deny someone the right to commit suicide."

Sudanna says, "Let's back track a minute.. what is the difference between helping someone to die and allowing them to die? Maybe that concept should be discussed."

Gaping across the room, Graiham asks, "How can you say that, Tiler? You'd rather let a person DIE than commit yourself to their long-term care? But - " He stops at Sudanna's bidding, but still seems rather agape.

Ellora, too, seems somewhat disgusted by Tiler's answer. She shifts her seat away from the general direction of the other apprentice, then turns her rapt attention towards Sudanna.

[HealerRankers] Aerrin dies as she catches up. Oh, that's funnY! Let 'em duke it out!

[HealerRankers] Aerrin: Hee

Sudanna waits as they mull this concept.. almost amused at what has been said so far. "Anyone willing to try defining the differences?" One eyebrow quirked as she smiles at well, everyone.

Nerak nods, "I know I couldn't help someone to die, but there are times when allowing it is necessary. This is also somthing everyone should know, different people have differerent opinions. There is no 'right' answer, it's how you personally feel."

"If a patients quality of life would be so poor, and painful, and if the patient chose to die, I would make them as comfortable as possible, and I would stay, so they would not be alone when the final moment came." Magen nods looking around the room.

Graiham thinks a time before he says anything to Sudanna's question. "For me? Allowing them to die is acceptable if they've asked you to. It's a matter of not prolonging their life, not taking extraordinary measures to keep them alive. Helping them, though... Well, that's giving them the means to kill themselves, or doing it for them." And something he says with blatant distaste.

Ellora shakes her head sorrowfully, but says nothing, once again folding her hands atop her hides and recomposing herself.

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: I am cutting and pasting you Aer..:>

Sudanna says, "So, as unlikely as it is, you need to be prepared for a case where the family and the patient may not agree.. and you need to know who you'll side with. Who you have the greater responsibility toward." She studies each face intently for a moment. "You do need to know yourself first. And be prepared to be true to your decision, whatever it may be. At this point, you aren't expected to do any of this. But someday..."

Nerak nods, "Let's say that the family wants the patient to live, and the patient wants to die. What then?"

Graiham says readily, "Well, the family isn't the patient, are they? Unless the patient is a minor or otherwise incapable of making decisions about his care..." He shrugs conclusively.

Ellora frowns, though she nods in agreement with Graiham's first point. "I would do what the patient wants."

[HealerRankers] Aerrin is back! Let me know when you finish this section and I can pick it up?

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: Basically I am.. step back any time..:>

[HealerRankers] Nerak: thinks it's just about done... they seem to be just going over the same points...

[HealerRankers] Aerrin nods and scrolls back to catch up.

[OOC:] Magen says "I think we have to remember the scenario...extremely injured patient with a chance for a poor quality recovery only. And we have to remember Pern's medical technology...it's not Star Trek with a medical tricorders that can fuse or mend torn arteries and bones."

[OOC:] Graiham has that in mind...?

[OOC:] Sudanna says "Issue is the same.. patient wishes vs family.." Aerrin, who's been silently sipping her tea for some time, finally speaks again. "If the patient is coherent and able to understand the situation, is there a need to consult the family?"

[OOC:] Aerrin is back! Love my parents to death, but they have horrid timing. ;)

[HealerRankers] Aerrin /adores/ you guys. Thank you so much.

[HealerRankers] Sudanna: no problem..:>

[HealerRankers] Nerak: not a problem! hehe...

[HealerRankers] Aerrin didn't expect that call at all.

Graiham says readily after Aerrin, "No. Unless the patient is too young to make decisions for himself." He's got his mind made up about this stuff, obviously.

Ellora frowns. "But how young is too young?"

Graiham replies, "Case-by-case basis. If the person fully understands what might happen to them, then they're responsible enough to make decisions for themselves."

[Healer] Sudanna: Does pern have an 'age of consent' sorta thing?

"Good question - and I think the answer to that one will depend on the situation, really. Something you'll have to take case by case." A short smile flickers as her answer overlaps Graiham's. Aerrin's gaze shifts from Ellora to Graiham. "Tell me, then - when do we involve the family? Does not consulting them mean that we don't need to keep them informed? When /do/ we ask what they want?"

You say, "but if they were suicidal in the first place, or in shock...""

[Healer] Aerrin: If we do, I don't know what it is

[Healer] Sudanna: That's what I thought. Would make things much more cut and dried..:>

[Healer] Aerrin: Yes, but not as fun. ;)

[Healer] Nerak: yeah... hehe. would be much easier.

[Healer] Jaina mutters, thought it was like...fifteen or sixteen.

[Healer] Aerrin: Well.. there are several sorts of 'age of consent' as well.

[Healer] Wyn: 15 is age of majority

[Healer] Wyn would say that's probably age of consent, too.

[Healer] Sudanna: Is that writen somewhere, Wyn? I would love to ahve that solidified.

[Healer] Ellora: If they can be apprenticed at about 12 or married about that age (according to some)...

[Healer] Aerrin: Legally adult, drinking, sexual behavior, ect, ect. In the US, I think all three of those are different ages.

[Healer] Jaina grins, I know the US ages!

[Healer] Wyn vaguely recalls it in White Dragon somewhere, Danna. Or at least that's the age that Jaxom could, theoretically, have taken over Ruatha.

[Healer] Sudanna: They are, depending on where you live. federal is 21 across the board.

[Healer] Nerak: yeah, but in the middleages, which this is supposed to be kind of like our middle ages, the girls were married as soon as they started their mensus...

[Healer] Aerrin nods at Grai. I rather doubt Pern has anything as cut and dried as that when it comes down to medical decisions. Especially not when you can have children apprenticeing away from their parents

[Healer] Sudanna: Thanks Wyn, I'll check at some time!

[Healer] Wyn: Yeah, but Pern isn't middle ages across the board, Nerak. ;) We just use that as a conveniant classification.

[Healer] Aerrin: Nah - this is middle ages like in very few ways. ;) Says the history major.

"If a patient isn't able to make decisions for himself, then the family is the next to ask," says Graiham, nodding as he talks it through. "And they ought to be kept informed as much as the patient wants them to be. If the patient doesn't want them to know... well. It's not my place to tell them, that's for sure."

[Healer] Sudanna: And an apprentice may then become the responsibility of the CraftMaster.

[Healer] Aerrin: That's a lot of apprentices for one person to be responsible for…

Ellora just sort of drops out of the conversation at this point, no exactly certain of her ground.

[Healer] Sudanna: but it makes some sense for the younger apprentices. Can't make 11 year olds legally responsible.

[Healer] Sudanna: But we digress.

[Healer] Wyn ponders. Altishly, we ask ICly for parent's permission, for the younger apprentices, over at Harper.

[Healer] Sarilka: Do you want a prepubescent child in charge of your medical care?

[Healer] Nerak: NO THANK YOU!!

Aerrin clears her throat softly. "All right, then. If the patient isn't able to make decisions - say, he's unconscious, or hallucinaginic - then we ask the family. Is there ever a time when you wouldn't want to trust the family's decisions?"

[Healer] Aerrin grins. We don't take apprentices that young. No worries there.

[Healer] Kryss grins, depends.. I trust some kids more then I'd trust some of teh adults... but then I hate doctors.. they are all quacks :)

[Healer] Sarilka giggles. Would you even trust a prepubescent to put the proper band aids on cuts?

[Healer] Sarilka: But for the most part, Kryss?

[Healer] Jaina: We trust my five year old nephew to put band-aids on cuts.

[Healer] Nerak: so, Kryss, how do you really feel? :)

Trust Graiham to have an opinion: "Sure, if I could prove that they had some kind of malicious intent. But that would come down to a case-by-case basis, again, I guess."

[Healer] Aerrin reads this log and sniffles. I miss Schala.

[Healer] Kryss has let kids put band-aids on her.. but well no I wouldn't let one insert a needle into me..

[Healer] Sarilka chuckles. Okay, perhaps I'm oversimlifying.

[Healer] Kryss doesn't let many do that anyways.. so maybe that's not the right one to use :)

Ellora wrinkles her nose finding herself suddenly out of her depth. Make the person happy and who cares about the family.

Nerak nods at Graiham's opinion, "There are times that would happen, like if the family would benefit in some way from the patient's death."

Aerrin doesn't let people get away that easily. Graiham is given a small nod, but it's Ellora who her gaze focuses on. "Ellora? Can you think of any instances? Even specific examples?"

[HealerRankers] Aerrin pokes Nerak. Shhh! You're taking away my questions. ;)

Ellora scratches behind her ear, shuffling her feet. She eyes Aerrin uncertainly. "Um. They were the ones who hurt him?" She goes from scratching behind her ear to rubbing at her forehead. Stop. You're hurting her brain.

Aerrin laughs suddenly. "Yes, that'd certainly be a reason. And like Nerak said - if the family is wanting the patient to die, and they'd benifit somehow, that's certainly questionable." Earlier laughter fades into a more serious expression. "Those are the times we must trust our own judgement. But.. enough of that. I think we've tormented your brain enough on that subject. Let's talk for a bit about another hypothetical. This time you're on a ship, the only healer on board. There's a storm, the ship wrecks, and you've suddenly got a lot of injured folks to deal with.. what do you do? Who do you treat first?"

Ellora turns to scratching at her hairline again, looking uncertainly from one apprentice to another surrounding her. Once again, things have gotten a little too complicated for her. Still, she makes a valiant effort, "Those hurt the worst?"

Graiham nods at Ellora's assertion, apparently quite willing to concur with her on that one.

Aerrin shifts, stretching to settle her now-empty mug on the floor next to her before she settles back into her chair. "What if, in the time it took you to treat one very critical patient, you could have saved three others?"

[Healer] Sudanna: i have a very strong personal view on this one..:>

Nerak grins, "Triage the patients, treat the worst first. That's what I'd probably do. ... but what if there are several that have life-threatening injuries? Who do you treat first?? Or treat some of the less-injured people and have them help you? Interesting dilemma."

[Healer] Ellora would actually say those most critical I know I have a chance of saving.

[Healer] Aerrin grins. Then say it.

[Healer] Graiham: I think she means she'd say that OOC?

[Healer Chat] Aerrin grins. But fun?

[Healer Chat] Ellora: Yes. ;)

[Healer Chat] Aerrin grins.

[Healer] Ellora nods at Graiham.

[Healer] Aerrin still let's someone say it ICly. ;)

"There's only so much one person can do," says Graiham thoughtfully. "If you think those three could survive while you got the one person stable, but that one person would die while you got those three stable... well. Those three would just have to wait."

"And if those three might die while you got the one stable?" Aerrin questions with a lifted brow. Ooo, the hard questions.

Graiham's a bit confused. "Then, no matter what you do, at least three people will die? I mean, treat person A and people B, C, and D are going to die. Treat person B, and people A, C, and D are going to die. And so on."

Sudanna hesitates to speak, she has been in just such a scenerio, at way too young an age. But rather then add to the conversation, she listens and nods. It's a very hard call, and suddenly, her old scars beging to itch.

"What if.." Ellora's watching Nerak, now. "What if you got other people to help?" Her face scrunches in difficult thought. She licks her lips. This is definitely hurting her. "Back home, all the men on active duty had to learn at least a little first aid."

"No, I'm speaking of instances when treating person A means that you may lose B, C, and D," Aerrin clarifies with a small wave of her hand. "But in the time it would take you to treat A, you would have been able to treat the three others. In that instance, you want to save as many as possible, even if it means losing that one. Sometimes it's a hard call to make." A small smile shoots toward Ellora. "/Good/ point. Often, a lot of the easy, but very important tasks - redworting wounds, stopping bleeding - can be done by anyone with a bit of First Aid training. Or two hands and the ability to follow directions. Take help where you can get it."

Ellora brightens perceptibly. She made a good point? That was a good point? Wow. She's brilliant!

Graiham nods at Aerrin, but looks doubtful. Whether that's about Ellora's good point or the Master's statement is difficult to say, but he nods anyway.

Nerak grins at Ellora, "That is right, you may be the only healer, but others have some knowledge! You could show others where to put pressure, how to put on bandages an many other things."

Aerrin is swift to continue. "What if, though, it's as Graiham says - either way you lose three people? How do you choose who to treat first, then?"

Ellora sighs, her shoulders sagging. One again, she finds herself out of her depth. She shakes her head.

"I think," begins Graiham speculatively, "that you treat the people most likely to make the fullest recovery."

"How do you gauge the fullest recovery? Is someone who might end up blind more or less recovered than someone who will limp for the rest of their life?" Aerrin asks.

Ellora again shakes her head. She starts to sink in her seat, gnawing on her lower lip. She might be overwhelmed, but that doesn't mean she isn't picking up pointers along the way.

Graiham frowns a little. "Well, considering that, in that kind of situation, you're going to be working fast and a little stressed out, I don't think there's much of a chance to try and figure out who counts as the 'most recovered.' Go with your gut."

Aerrin laughs softly, and her head inclines in acknowledgement. "Quite true. That's exactly how much of it will work - which is, of course, why we want you to think about it /now/ rather than then. We do have some ways to break it down, though, if all other things are equal. First, you would choose by the amount of responsibility each person had. So a mother of four should perhaps be treated before a traveler. And the other is rank, pure and simple. At times, this seems a bit heartless.. but you would treat a Master or a Journeyman before an apprentice. The reasoning behind that is simple - there are lots of apprentices, there are a few masters, and an apprentice cannot train more, while a master can."

Ellora frowns at that, being one of the young apprentice types.

Graiham doesn't say anything, but - well. His expression is kind of doubtful. (Talk about not playing to your audience!)

Nerak nods, and is glad she has never been in that kind of situation. With the cave-in and the meteors, there were plenty of healers around, not alot of herbs, but plenty of healers…

Ellora clears her throat, swallowing the offered information. She straightens her shoulders, her expression grim, and refolds her hands atop the stack of hides. If that's the way it's gotta be…

Morallen was here all along. Really. Honest. He actually was, he was simply sleeping on one of the more distant couches. Sleeping through an entire class? It takes talent, and the night shift. But he's awake now, so he settles for blinking blearily, and attempting to get his mental bearings before he's spotted.

If Aerrin notices the expressions, she doesn't give any sign of it. Instead, she pushes onward. "There are many reasons a Healer may breach ethics. Some are more acceptable than others. The first is something we often like to forget: we are human. Because of that, we sometimes make mistakes. We get tired, we get angry.. we forget things, we measure incorrectly, we miss details. Sometimes we simply do things /wrong/. And while we should do everything in our power to keep this from happening, we also have to realize that we are only human and can only do so much ourselves. Other times, a Healer is simply misled." A dramatic pause is inserted, and she moves on. "However. Sometimes a healer willingly chooses to do something that is not in the patient's interest. Like refusing to treat them, or treating them improperly. When this happens, that's /more/ than grounds for losing your knot.. you should /never/ choose to harm anyone."

"Well, of course not," says Graiham as if that ought to have been obvious. "Ma'am." Belated, but at least he remembers it. Morallen snorts quietly from his couch, still unspotted but unable to avoid commenting. "Naturally. We've got Oaths for a /reason/ after all," he murmurs to any in hearing range, raking a hand through his decidedly-rumpled hair.

Nerak sips her klah quietly and nods, any healer who willingly hurts someone ought to loose more than his or her knot…

Ellora nods slowly, though it all sort of goes right over her head. Theory's all well and good, but Ellora does better with practice. "Healers do no harm," she brings out the simple refrain as she catches that last bit.

[OOC:] Graiham is going to run. ICly, it's safe to assume he's mulling it all over and being quieter if the class continues. In any case, THANKS, Aerrin, Sudanna, Nerak, et al. :) Graiham has disconnected.

Aerrin nods for emphasis. "Does anyone have questions on anything we've covered?"

Ellora shakes her head slowly, then stops mid-shake. She bites her lower lip, then ventures, "When do we get to practice?"

Nerak looks up at Aerrin, smiles and shakes her head. This class always makes her think... harder than any other class. "None here..."

Aerrin laughs at Ellora. "Hopefully never.. but you ought to be helping out with small healings whenever you're on duty in the infirmary. When you make senior, you get to start tackling bigger stuff."

Sudanna sighs, but doesn't offer any comments. Ethics, more then any class makes her re-assess her commitment to the Hall. So far she always comes out secure in her chioce to stay and be a healer.

Ellora nods slowly, her head dancing with all this new knowledge. She's going to have to take this class again when she knows more. Yepyep. She starts to rise, then looks askance at Aerrin. "Is the class over?"

Aerrin grins, head bobbing shortly. "Yup. Unless you have questions, you're free to go." Ellora nods and, with a smile for everyone in the room, scoops up her hides, then wanders out of the room to see just how much infirmary duty she can get. Ellora goes home.

Nerak looks around, "Looks like we scared off all of the apprentices!" she chuckles.

"Not quite," comes a sleepy correction from the Rallen-on-the-couch, returned to invisibility by the simple logic of sinking back down and resting his head on one of the arms.

Nerak laughs, "True, I thought you had fallen back to sleep, sorry, Morallen." She takes a sip of her klah. "that class never fails to make my brain hurt!"

Sudanna says, "Certainly makes one think about what they stand for... and against." Interesting that not everyone views the Oaths the same way. "I am sure the apprentices all have lots to think about tonight."

"I had my first Ethics class with Aerrin teaching," recounts Morallen, chipping in with a rambling sort of tone. He likely isn't exactly sure of who's still in the room, but is determined to be sociable anyways. "It never seems to be the same thing twice."

Nerak grins, "I think that is the nature of the Ethics class! My first class was with Master Erik."